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Offline enchant

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #720 on: October 12, 2017, 05:42:03 AM »
Sauce:use Saporito pizza sauce and 1 full can of water
I bought a can of Saporito sauce and added half a gallon water to it, which seemed to give it a decent consistency.  But a full can is about 3 quarts, so maybe I could have added more.  Of course, all the spice you add requires more hydration, too.
--pat--

Offline hammettjr

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #721 on: October 12, 2017, 07:06:56 AM »
Ok so I started my own pizza joint, and sell hand tossed pizza. But greek pizza is still in my mind.

Cheese: use 75% mild white cheddar
And 25% part skim mozzarella
Sauce:use Saporito pizza sauce and 1 full can of water add sugar salt garlic oregano basil pepper and romano cheese dont be shy with the spices
Dough:full strength flour gold medal
52% hydration
3% sugar
2% salt
3% oil
.5% fresh yeast
10 min mix
Put in fridge let rise over night. Next day take out dough balls let them warm up some. In the restaurant we would run the dough through a sheeter, but your going to have to degass the dough using a rolling pin.
Roll out the dough to about 3/4 diameter of the pan. Then hand strecth the rest of the way, you want to over strecth it about in inch bigger than the pan and fold the excess dough back down around the pizza crimping it along the way. Now you cover the pan and let it sit at room temp for an hour maybe two for the second rise. This is when all the dough for the day would be put in the fridge to be ready for orders.
For a 16" pizza use about 8 oz sauce and 9-10 oz cheese blend bake time is around 8 minutes

Jamie, thank you very much for your reply. This is very helpful information and I will be making some changes for sure. The biggest surprise to me is only using 9-10 oz of cheese on a 16" pizza. I'm currently using 16 oz and am considering going even higher.

Also, what temperature do you recommend for an 8 minute bake?

Thanks again,
Matt
Matt

Offline Kostakis1985

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #722 on: October 12, 2017, 07:10:36 AM »
The sauce espcially with the granulated garlic and romano cheese in it, will thicken it up in a day or two bc of something in the garlic. Itll become like a gelatin that needss to be stirred
Jamie

Offline nicu2001

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #723 on: October 12, 2017, 07:27:17 AM »
The video from Cape Cod Cafe is great and is the style I have been making with cheese all the way to the edge.  I want to make it the way Matt does with a rim as his look exactly like I had growing up but my family loves the cheese to the edge.  I am going to buy some Bonta from Pennmac next time I order from them.  I also like the fact that CHEDDAR is the main cheese in this style.  I am up to 50% White Cheddar 50% Mozz but I am going to try 60% Cheddar 40% Mozz next.  I have been using Whole Milk but maybe Part Skim will take away some of the grease.  Also agree 9-10oz seems light for a 16" but that may be personal preference at this point.  I still can't make up my mind on Bread Flour vs. HG Flour.  I go back and forth between KABF and All Trumps.

Offline enchant

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #724 on: October 12, 2017, 07:28:07 AM »
Jamie, for my home use, I open a can of sauce, add the water I need.  Then I fill canning jars and put them through the canning process so I can store them in the cupboard.  Assuming I were to add garlic powder to the recipe, do you think it's wise to add it on a per-pizza basis rather than putting it into all the jars at the outset? 

I'm very early in my Greek pizza adventure and I'm still working on a proper dough and cooking process.  I'll fine tune the sauce recipe later.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2017, 07:29:46 AM by enchant »
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #725 on: October 12, 2017, 08:06:22 AM »
Ok so I started my own pizza joint, and sell hand tossed pizza. But greek pizza is still in my mind.

Cheese: use 75% mild white cheddar
And 25% part skim mozzarella
Sauce:use Saporito pizza sauce and 1 full can of water add sugar salt garlic oregano basil pepper and romano cheese dont be shy with the spices
Dough:full strength flour gold medal
52% hydration
3% sugar
2% salt
3% oil
.5% fresh yeast
10 min mix
Put in fridge let rise over night. Next day take out dough balls let them warm up some. In the restaurant we would run the dough through a sheeter, but your going to have to degass the dough using a rolling pin.
Roll out the dough to about 3/4 diameter of the pan. Then hand strecth the rest of the way, you want to over strecth it about in inch bigger than the pan and fold the excess dough back down around the pizza crimping it along the way. Now you cover the pan and let it sit at room temp for an hour maybe two for the second rise. This is when all the dough for the day would be put in the fridge to be ready for orders.
For a 16" pizza use about 8 oz sauce and 9-10 oz cheese blend bake time is around 8 minutes
Jamie,

Good to see you back on the forum again, and I hope that all is well with you and your restaurant. Are you still in NH and is your brother with you in the new restaurant?

With respect to your recipe, can you tell us what weight of dough ball you are using for the 16" pizza? And are there other dough ball weights that you would recommend for other pizza sizes?

Peter

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #726 on: October 12, 2017, 02:21:51 PM »
The sauce espcially with the granulated garlic and romano cheese in it, will thicken it up in a day or two bc of something in the garlic. Itll become like a gelatin that needss to be stirred

I make a sauce that is simply jalapeno, oil, and salt that is the consistency of heavy cream. I put fresh garlic in in once, and it did the same thing. After one night in the fridge, it was a firm as Greek yoghurt.
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Offline jkb

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #727 on: October 12, 2017, 10:28:06 PM »
I make a sauce that is simply jalapeno, oil, and salt that is the consistency of heavy cream. I put fresh garlic in in once, and it did the same thing. After one night in the fridge, it was a firm as Greek yoghurt.

Pectin.

Offline mitchjg

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #728 on: October 14, 2017, 10:53:52 PM »
My round LLoyd 14 inch pan was delivered so, new weapon in hand, I decided to give Greek pizza another try.

I decreased the oil and water by 1% each, landing at 4% and 56%, respectively.  I also increased the sugar to 2%.  This batch fermented for 2 days in the fridge.  The dough balls rose noticeably more than last time (not really due to 2 days, the balls were much more reason in the first morning).  I rolled the dough out with a rolling pin (gasp?) to get a finer more even crumb than I may get with hand stretching only.

The Lloyd pan and my 10 X 15 carbon steel pan both performed very nicely.  No sticking at all and good browning on the bottom.  This time I placed the pans on a well preheated stone.  Baked for about 20 minutes at 450 and then another 5 with foil on top.

I was looking for a little more crisp on the bottom.  Although nicely browned, bottom and top, there was no crunch or crisp on the bottom.  The sides, especially the pizza in the Lloyd round, had great crunch on the sides.

Next time, I am going to drop the TF from .105 to around .090 - .095.  More cheddar cheese, too.

Beyond that, I am not sure about the crisp on the bottom.  Is the bottom of a Greek pizza supposed to have some crisp/crunch or is it supposed to be more soft?

Thanks.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2017, 10:36:12 AM by mitchjg »
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Offline hammettjr

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #729 on: October 15, 2017, 08:22:20 AM »
Looking good Mitch.

Lowering the TF will make a big difference. I just did TF=0.0975. How much cheddar did you use? I'm up to 58% and may go higher.

I'm very inconsistent on the bottom bake, but when I get a light crisp the pie is taken to a higher level IMO. Would it make sense to finish the pie directly on a stone? My preference though would be to figure out how to get a consistent crisp in the pan.

....
Beyond that, I am not sure about the crisp on the bottom.  Is the bottom of a Greek pizza supposed to have some crisp/crunch or is it supposed to be more soft?


I'm not entirely certain whether Greek pies typically have a crisp. I'm guessing the bar-style is crisp and the regular style depends on the shop. The pies I grew up with were always 'take out' and even if it started with a crisp, it wouldn't have survived the car ride, hence my uncertainty.

Matt

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Offline enchant

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #730 on: October 15, 2017, 08:43:24 AM »
I'm not entirely certain whether Greek pies typically have a crisp. I'm guessing the bar-style is crisp and the regular style depends on the shop. The pies I grew up with were always 'take out' and even if it started with a crisp, it wouldn't have survived the car ride, hence my uncertainty.

I live south of Boston and I'm surrounded by pizza joints that make the bar style pizza - Lynwood, Town Spa, Alumni, [Your_Town_Here] House of Pizza, etc.  The typical crust on these has a very crisp edge, almost like deep fried, but softer and biscuit-like once you get past that outer 1/64".  I've started once again to try to replicate this.  In one place nearby, I asked what they used to oil the pan.  He said simply "butter".  I've tried that a couple times, but I'm not that happy.  I'm going to go back to oil and raise my oven temp some.  I'd like to try buttery Crisco, per Norma's suggestion, but I've only found it in the Vat size.  The experimentation continues...

Edit:  By "edge", I don't mean just the outer rim.  I mean the bottom part of the crust that was in contact with the oil.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2017, 08:57:05 AM by enchant »
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Offline hammettjr

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #731 on: October 15, 2017, 09:12:55 AM »
...The typical crust on these has a very crisp edge, almost like deep fried, but softer and biscuit-like once you get past that outer 1/64".

Thanks Pat. You mentioned raising the temp. Do know what the typical bake time is? I'm wondering if Mitch and I are baking too low and long (at more than 15 minutes). Nicu has had nice results at 500 and Koustakis recently mentioned 8 minute bake times.

Edit: but maybe it is more about the oil in the pan and less about the temp?


« Last Edit: October 15, 2017, 09:57:59 AM by hammettjr »
Matt

Offline mitchjg

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #732 on: October 15, 2017, 10:35:18 AM »
Dang, I thought you guys would have the magic answer for me.    :'(


Although undesirable, I think that a transfer to the baking stone would work.  Maybe even just to the rack so that air can circulate underneath.

I also wonder about the rest time on a cooling rack.  Each time I removed the pizzas from the pan, I transferred to a baking rack to cool down and let air flow underneath.  I think I only did it for about 2 minutes.  I noticed (on at least one, I do not remember one way or the other for both) that there was a little pool of water under the rack when I moved the pizza to the cutting board.  It was definitely steaming out a lot of moisture.  I have seen that before with breads.

So, maybe it needs to stay on the cooling rack longer to really let the moisture out?  Maybe 5 minutes?

I do not think it would be higher temperature because, at least the conventional wisdom says, if you want a crisper crust you should bake longer at a lower temperature.  And, 450 or so is pretty typical for breads. 

The other thing I thought about was to lower the pizza in the oven (all of my heat is generated from the bottom).  This last time, I used the 2nd from bottom rack.  I could use the lowest rack or even put the pizza stone on the oven floor for more direct transmission of heat to the bottom.


*********
Regarding the cheese, I used about 55% cheddar.  This time it was some local organic brand and not the Cracker Barrel.  Next time, I think I am going back to the Cracker Barrel and using more cheese overall with more cheddar.  I used about 8 1/4 ounces and 9 1/2 ounces for the 14 inch round and 10 X 15, respectively.

« Last Edit: October 15, 2017, 10:41:55 AM by mitchjg »
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Offline enchant

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #733 on: October 15, 2017, 11:02:59 AM »
Thanks Pat. You mentioned raising the temp. Do know what the typical bake time is?

Sorry, I don't.  I'm a certified international expert on what it should be like.  How to actually pull it off, I'm a certified idiot.  But it seems that it can't be rocket science since so many pizza places are doing a good job at it.  Some are using better cheese and/or sauce, so some serve better pizzas than others, but getting the crust to be just the right way seems to be pretty common knowledge.

I cook my NY style pizzas directly on the stone at 550 for 8 minutes.  I'm assuming that since you've got the additional insulation of the pan that the heat has to pass through, that time has to be upped some.  I'm going to try 10 minutes.
--pat--

Offline mitchjg

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #734 on: October 15, 2017, 11:16:41 AM »
FYI, I just asked Tom for his guidance on the crispness issue.  https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=49850.0
Mitch

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Offline hammettjr

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #735 on: October 15, 2017, 11:24:29 AM »
Sorry, I don't.  I'm a certified international expert on what it should be like.  How to actually pull it off, I'm a certified idiot...

 :-D I know the feeling!
Matt

Offline hammettjr

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #736 on: October 15, 2017, 11:27:04 AM »
Thanks Mitch, very helpful regarding bread baking temp. And now that you mentioned it, I rushed my pie from its cooling screen to the serving tray last night. That may have been the problem!

Matt

Offline Satyen

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #737 on: October 15, 2017, 11:36:11 AM »
 I always manage to get a very crispy bottom on my greek pan pies. I use tf 0.1152 (180g for 8" pans). 1 teaspoon of oil to coat the pan. Bake for 8-10 min at around 575f on steel placed on lowest rack. I never put oil in the actual dough as it might produce a softer and more tender final product.

Offline mitchjg

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #738 on: October 15, 2017, 11:53:28 AM »
I just finished a leftover slice for breakfast (yum).  I put it in the toaster to reheat it.  The bottom was super crunchy/crispy.  So, the toasting drove out the moisture on the bottom.  I guess that must imply that, if all else fails, a few minutes out of the baking pan directly on the stone or rack would probably do the trick.
Mitch

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Offline hammettjr

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #739 on: October 15, 2017, 01:28:20 PM »
Ok, here's my pie from last night. Many changes - some worked, some didn't, some I'm not sure about. But I think we have great momentum as a group, and our pies continue to improve  :chef:

Changes
TF reduced to 0.0975 (from 0.10). Was good.
Used regular and mini rolling pin. Probably good. I was inspired by the post by Koustakis. I was hoping it would result in an even undercrust bake, but still no luck. One mistake was I rolled it too close to full size, only leaving 1-2 inches to hand-push the rim. This ended up causing an oversized rim and the side slices being thicker than the center slices.
Sauce thickness - One more tbs of water added to Bonta (1 cup bonta to 1/2 cup + 2 tbs water). Was good, maybe add more water.
Sauce seasoning 50%+ heavier. Too much pepper, probably too much garlic, maybe too much oregano (I doubled it).
Sauce amount, full cup (one tbs more than usual). It was a bit saucy, probably good and likely better with more cheese.
No parm used. I think I missed it. Next time I'll try parm on half and compare side-by-side.
Cheese - 1 more ounce total at 17oz (for the 16'' pie). Upped the cheddar and the full fat cheddar. Blend was 7oz WM mozz, 6.5oz WM cheddar, 3.5oz light Cheddar. Was good. I may try even more cheese. It was greasier than last bake, but acceptable. I still have to try part-skim mozz.
Because of scheduling, the dough was a day older than usual at 3-days. I think this led to less browning.

Usual 15:30 at 460 degrees on the second to top rack under the electric coil.

As discussed in the previous posts, it was lacking bottom crisp. I definitely rushed it off the cooling screen, probably in less than 2 minutes. I like Mitch's though on this, and will start timing the cool-down. I use only about 1/2 tsp oil in the pan because I'm concerned about pooling. With the increased grease on top, I ended up with a good amount on the serving tray again, which gets under the pie. I've noticed in the pics from my hometown pizzeria that they use a round cardboard disk underneath, I may see if my local cash and carry has them.

Matt

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