Pizza Making Forum

General Topics => Pizza Ovens => Pizza Making Equipment => Hearth Ovens => Topic started by: Reep on September 19, 2012, 04:47:39 PM

Title: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: Reep on September 19, 2012, 04:47:39 PM
After searching quite a bit, I am down to two specific models that would work for me and would love input from anyone experienced with these or similar models.  This WFO will be part of an outdoor kitchen, where I have lots of space to work with.  I am interested in Neapolitan and California-style pizza and will be cooking for family and small parties at our home.  Pizza will be 90% of the use.  5% for bread making and 5% for other misc experimentation. 

Specifically this is what I'm looking at:

Earthstone 110
43" diameter circular cooking surface
solid build quality
more mass than FGM
higher dome
local builder

FGM FT1350C Lateral
Oval footprint: Wider and shorter than Earthstone
Lower dome
less mass

Price is close enough to be equal.  I know both builders are highly respected. I'm sure I would be happy with either oven, but the nuances between the two require more experience than I have to evaluate.

My main question is does the lower dome and wider/shorter footprint create an advantage?  And what about the lower mass?   
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: Reep on September 19, 2012, 05:01:25 PM
I should note too that I love Robyn's installation, but the issues she had with the FGM baking tiles causes me a bit of concern.
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: scott123 on September 19, 2012, 05:57:10 PM
The baking tiles, as Robyn found out, are easy to replace, and, from what I can tell, not indicative of any larger issues with the FGMs.

How large are these parties going to be?  Both of these ovens have about 10 sq. feet of interior real estate.  You may need that much space in a commercial environment, with a team of people making pizzas, but, in a home setting, it seems a bit much.  Both of these ovens are going to suck up wood like there's no tomorrow and take a very long time to pre-heat.

I'm not entirely sold on the FT1350C, though.  The shape, door size and dome height all feel a bit off.  If you can deal with the size, I think the 950 is a better choice.  Better dimensions, faster pre-heats, less wood.

Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: Reep on September 19, 2012, 06:27:33 PM
Mostly smaller dinner parties (3 families), but I could see going big (50-100) once or twice a year.  I don't want to suck up wood needlessly, but I do have a lot of space to work with.  I have just read so many reviews of people with <1100 square inch ovens who seem to wish they had more room to work with.  This is going to be a major installation built into a big outdoor kitchen and I don't want to wish I would have gone bigger.

In Earthstone, the 90 would be the next option and it seems too small.  At FGM, there are the 1350 and 1500 series, which are about the same size as the Earthstone 110, but the 950 is 2/3 the size.

ES 90: 961 square inch
ES 110: 1451 square inch
FGM 950: 1085 square inch
FGM 1350: 1441 square inch

The FGM 950B is a real possibility.  Probably the size I should get, and would probably do all I needed.  I just don't want to cut short when I have the funds and space to go a bit bigger.  Still thinking.
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: Reep on September 19, 2012, 07:37:07 PM
BTW, attached is the face plan for the oven.  I might raise the pizza oven height up a bit (I'm 6'1").
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: RobynB on September 19, 2012, 08:37:52 PM
Smaller dinner parties, the 950B would be fine.  For feeding 50 people the oven isn't what would slow me down, it's the prep  :P   If I had someone to make the pies and someone to serve them, I could crank them out in the 950.  Antoine says the floor tiles in newer models are superior to the ones we got, my oven was imported years ago.  I have no idea how the shape of the oval one would affect cooking, never seen it.  Feel free to contact me with any specific questions. 
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: Reep on September 19, 2012, 09:26:21 PM
Smaller dinner parties, the 950B would be fine.  For feeding 50 people the oven isn't what would slow me down, it's the prep  :P   If I had someone to make the pies and someone to serve them, I could crank them out in the 950.  Antoine says the floor tiles in newer models are superior to the ones we got, my oven was imported years ago.  I have no idea how the shape of the oval one would affect cooking, never seen it.  Feel free to contact me with any specific questions. 

Thanks Robyn.  The one thing I also like about the 950 is the price would allow me to go for the brick version, which I have to admit looks great in your pictures.  Honestly, I can't imagine cooking more than two pies at a time.  I just like the idea of extra space as a buffer, or extra space if I want to do different things.  Having said that, I will also have a 56" high temp grill and a big wood barbecue to handle extra food too.
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: JConk007 on September 19, 2012, 10:30:17 PM
Reep I own an earthstone 90 now for 6-7 years in the back yard I also have a 40" forno bravo on a trailer Mobile WFO Flirting with Fire http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14533.0.html here and I have also recently cooked in the FGM 950B

1st off I love my earthstone ! its big enough for most parties the floor tiles are great and it holds heat like a dream

With the forno mobile its a 100 or 40 " floor ( the 950 seemed as big?) I am able make a decent dare I say Neapolitan pie as well with a little coaxing :) .  Most all parties I do are right  in the 50 person range and the oven is PLENTY big for that ! we are talking 90 second pizzas here. Like Robyn said its not the oven slowing me down you have to stretch and top each pie then bake.  can do 3 12" easy  at a time in there if I could keep up with the making

The FGM 950
I loved the way it cooked felt like a mercedes compared to  a hundyia or Kia (allthough they are making some great rides now) just feels solid! hard to describe. the lower dome was not treally noticable and did not affect greatly cooking times or outcome that I could see once the cooking started. I really like the brick finish as well nicest looking oven by far
the Lateral ovens are great for bigger production but trust me you dont need that kinda room when are you going to lay out 2 rows of 4 pies accross  and cook em?? this takes some mad skills as well! I did not catch you woodfired oven or pizza making experience mentioned just which ovens you want ?? with a lateral fire is designed to  go on the back staight in from the oven door / what I dont like about that is you dont see ! I like to viewthe one side as it cooks and control the turning based on hot its cooking and not be blind  just a thought
Its a really tough choice for me between the 2 but I have to go with the 950B it WILL do whatever you ask of it If you have an need for bigger od if budget and ego are bigger my vote goes to the earthstone 110 (what about the 1030FGM?) but I am not sure why a homeoner would really require such an oven? I would vote no on the bigger FGM
Feel free to reach out with any questions you may Have I am here to help
John
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: JConk007 on September 19, 2012, 10:42:24 PM
You are blessed that money is no object so getting wood or having someone cut, split and stack it is probably no biggy either but heat up time  should be a consideration ?? Bigger ovens eat more wood require more wood to maintain heat  AND take longer to heat up to cooking tem 800+ on the floor. My mobile I canget to temp in 1 hr because I am basically heating the dome and the tiles no real mass. My earthstone 90 likes a good 2 hours the FGM 950 !:45+ also The 110  ? no idea?? but solid 2 hrs no matter what they say TXcraig heats up for 10+ hours or more sometimes before cooking ! Oh and I have no expreience with the 1350.  so its about the look you want and as mentioned bigger is not allways better  If you were talking Eaststone vs. forno hands down Earthstone Just my opinion  but you have 2 nice ovens come to New Jersey and cook in both !  :chef:
John
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: TXCraig1 on September 19, 2012, 10:47:47 PM
You are blessed that money is no object so getting wood or having someone cut, split and stack it is probably no biggy either but heat up time  should be a consideration ?? Bigger ovens eat more wood require more wood to maintain heat  AND take longer to heat up to cooking tem 800+ on the floor. My mobile I canget to temp in 1 hr because I am basically heating the dome and the tiles no real mass. My earthstone 90 likes a good 2 hours the FGM 950 !:45+ also The 110  ? no idea?? but solid 2 hrs no matter what they say TXcraig heats up for 4 hours or more sometimes before cooking ! Oh and I have no expreience with the 1350.  so its about the look you want and as mentioned bigger is not allways better  If you were talking Eaststone vs. forno hands down Earthstone Just my opinion  but you have 2 nice ovens come to New Jersey and cook in both !  :chef:
John

4 hours? I wish. Try 10 hours, and more would be better.

Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: JConk007 on September 19, 2012, 10:55:27 PM
ok fixedsorry my friend I thought I saw a 4 hr # somewhere ant some point ? probably dreaming  ???
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: Reep on September 19, 2012, 11:45:51 PM
Well, my pizza making experience is off and on for 30 years, but my WBO experience is zero.  Most of my recent work is just getting the oven up as hot as I can and going from there.  This is why I like the recommendations.  I was leaning toward the 110, but the 950 is probably perfect for me.  Plenty of space, good reputation and does look fantastic.  Fortunately, I don't need a big oven to feel good.  I just want to make sure I get one big enough to not regret going too small.  Sounds like the 950B would be plenty big for those needs.  I'm pretty much cooking solo, so probably will also be limited by prep time.

Here is some of my electric oven pizza (wheat crust, not too bad)
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: JConk007 on September 20, 2012, 12:25:59 AM
You have spoken with Antione right at Breadstoneovens.com hes the FGM dealer in the USA
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: Reep on September 20, 2012, 12:20:31 PM
You have spoken with Antione right at Breadstoneovens.com hes the FGM dealer in the USA


Yes.  He has sent me quotes and we have discussed the options.  Just need to make a decision now.

On a lightly different note, what oven height would be recommended for a 6'1" cook?  I was considering placing a cutout of an opening on the wall and seeing where would be best to view it and to operate a peel in it.  probably with the oven floor around 4'?
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: RobynB on September 20, 2012, 01:12:35 PM
Definitely mock something up and see what feels right.  I'm 5'2" and went with 42" height, and I'm happy with it.  You're almost a foot taller than I am, and you're suggesting 48" which is only 6 inches higher.  John (Conklin) is tall and his is pretty high - ask him the exact height.  You want it comfortable for loading, turning, and pulling, but also you need to be able to see in there without bending too far over. 
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: Reep on September 24, 2012, 05:19:27 PM
Still trying to evaluate here.  Ground is broken on the project, so I have to pick something soon.  Current thinking:

FGM 1350 lateral: love the look and reputation, and Antione has been great.  The low dome height should not be too limiting for me.  I wouldn't mind the higher dome option, but that also raises the door to 11.5" tall, which seems too tall compared to the more typical 10" doors.  I like the idea of having more width away from the fire to experiment with cooking placement.  Not sure if the wide shape harms convection any, but likely not.

Earthstone 110: Probably bigger than I need, but the best bargain of the bunch.  Refractory interior isn't as pretty as the FGM, but that's part of why it's less $$.  

Marra Forni (by Cirigliano Forni): still checking to see the price of the oven kit only.  The fully assembled, ready-to-go unit is more $$ than the others, but would save me a lot of time, which would be nice.  Quality seems stellar.  The look of the FGM with size and mass of the Earthstone (and the price of both combined).

Any more thoughts are welcome.  I'll let you know what I find out about the Marra Forni shell price.

One of the more confusing elements is the only Italian oven has the highest dome height (16").  Also, the difference between the dome height and the top of the door varies greatly (1.5" for the FGM, 6" for the Marra Forni).  This would seem to have a dramatic difference on how much of the hottest air is held in the dome, but people seem to like both and I can't see a lot of difference in the pizzas made by either.
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: JConk007 on September 24, 2012, 10:21:43 PM
Well I also know and have dealt with Francesco over at Marra Forni also  !  :D these too are great people.
what are the  specs measurements of the Coriglio  he offers? They do seem quite nice ovens .
I also really like the 1350 Lateral its pretty bi at 37" X53" floor space so you can alsoo do a fire on each side and cook like 4-6 neapolitan in the middle or use one side fire and trhe afar side for calzones or whatever ? I do love the brick look that would be a must. As far as heat escaping? this aint alcatraz ! The dome is heated by the flames rolling over it the lower dome keep more of the flames licking the dome at all times Once  the oven /mass is up to temp I do not think that would be an issue. Scott please chime in. I did not notice any escapies when I cooked in the 950  ;) and the lower dome hieght did not bother me either I would like the 12 " dome with the  Mugniani ? not mentioned
you have a tough descicion but at least you have some help! None of these kind people when I built the earthstone  :'(keep hunting
John
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: Reep on September 24, 2012, 11:07:35 PM
Well I also know and have dealt with Francesco over at Marra Forni also  !  :D these too are great people.
what are the  specs measurements of the Coriglio  he offers? They do seem quite nice ovens .
I also really like the 1350 Lateral its pretty bi at 37" X53" floor space so you can alsoo do a fire on each side and cook like 4-6 neapolitan in the middle or use one side fire and trhe afar side for calzones or whatever ?

The Marra Forni (made by CF) is 42" floor with 16" to the dome.  The 1350 lateral is actually about 33"x53".  They count the opening in the measurement, which isn't really the depth of the floor.  it is made from two 700s with a spacer in the middle.  Either one would be great, but they are so different. 
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: breadstoneovens on September 25, 2012, 12:51:34 PM
Thank you for all the kind comments, I really appreciate it.
To bring a few more information to the table on the different ovens here are my comments.
- The 1350 sides are made of 2 back pieces from the 800 oven, 32"1/2 diameter, with 2 unique central pieces that ties the oven together. Also correct the depth of the 1350 of the cooking floor per say is 32"1/2, but 37" to the landing brick tiles.
- The 1500 sides are made of 2 back pieces from the 950 oven, 37"1/2 diameter, with 2 unique central pieces that ties the oven together.

As far as oven weight, it is important to not confuse the shipping weight and the oven weight. Oven weight is, or should be from my point of view, the refractory material that are going to create the thermal mass.
For example the 950 oven weight, no doors, no flue connector, no insulation, ... is at 960 lb. When it ships with the doors, flue connector and insulation, it brings the oven to 1400 lb.
Many manufacturer are deceiving and put the shipping weight but it is not the true oven weight as some of the weight they account for includes insulation, or grog for example ( over 350 lb ), and even the crate it is packaged in.

Antoine
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: Reep on September 26, 2012, 03:37:54 PM
Update: down to 2.

Due to some adjustments to the construction site, the 1350 is out of the running as I cannot easily accommodate the width.  And I really want a brick dome (personal preference).  So it is down to these two:

FGM 950B: 9.5" dome 37.5" (published) cooking diameter, $ good value, more fuel efficient, slightly limiting on uses outside of pizza.

Marra Forni Capri 110: 16" dome, 42" cooking diameter, $$$ but fully assembled (I have very little time)

I can swing the money for the MF, but the FGM is clearly a better value.  I do believe that for pizza making and parties, the FGM would be plenty big.  My biggest concern is down the road if I want the versatility to cook bigger items (birds primarily) then I will be a bit limited by the FGM.  Also, I think the extra space in the Marra would be more forgiving to a newbie and increase the margin for error (although using more fuel).  I don't really care for the raised FGM because of the tall, narrow door and the extra seem from the 3" lift kit.  Really torn between these two beautiful ovens and the great support from both sales groups.
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: shuboyje on September 26, 2012, 09:09:47 PM
IMHO the great part of a wood fired oven is the abundance of heat.  You can make a claim that the all around radiant heat and sealed cooking chamber make retained heat cooking special, and they do, but at the end of the day these beasts really shine with flame, fire and high heat.

I mention this because you mention cooking birds as a concern with the FGM oven.  I've roasted birds in my oven and they are good, certainly better and moister then a most out of a home oven, but it's still a roast bird.  If you want something special cook some pizza, then let the life flame die.  Spread the red hot coals out across the entire cooking floor.  Split a bird down the back and put it into a cast iron pan.  Put that pan right on top of the coals, and in no time you will have something that will blow your mind.  We do chicken like this a lot after pizza.  20 minutes and a whole chicken is done and incredible, dripping with moisture with a very browned and crispy skin.  Like nothing you've ever had, and odds are you will never care about roasting again.
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: Bill/SFNM on September 26, 2012, 09:18:24 PM
Like nothing you've ever had, and odds are you will never care about roasting again.

Sounds awesome! Skin up or down?
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: JConk007 on September 26, 2012, 09:34:49 PM
Agreed Jeep, I still have big plans 7 years Later to do roasting in My oven that I bought because I wanted to make great  pizza ! I have made bread like 2 times and do  ribs, roasts, pork butt often next day. I think either oven can do that. I don't want to influence  your choice just offering my experience. I am friendly with Both Francesco @ Marra Forni and Antione over at Breadstone. As mentioned most people don't have the unlimited budget  which makes the FGM a clear winner in my eye. As mentioned I have cooked in the 950B standard and its great ! I am sure the Marra ovens are very good as well!  Tony G uses this oven in SF and he can probably  use whatever he wants too ? But thats a professional setting. You are building a home oven mostly  for Pizza right ? But you have limited experience and want a touch bigger  How about the FGM 1030 (40+") or the  1200 ? thats a round  47 " inside  and a beautiful oven as well. And - you can then do those 150 people parties right ?? BTW Ricks Party I did was well over 75 people  I did about 75 pies in the 950B in 2 hrs. You also mention this door height thing and heat escaping. This is just my thought ,The lower dome allows the flames to roll more consistently across the dome keeping it hot and reducing fuel (wood) consumption. When I cooked in Rick's Oven the flames went across, not out the front, and he has the standard version. You also can go raised and get the smaller door you know.  Lastly for a small fee they can factory assemble the FGM for you plop it in or on stand and start cooking !!
Good luck with your decision go with your gut I cant wait to see the build whatever you choose Have you looked at the Stefano Ferraro  or Acunto ;D
John
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: Reep on September 27, 2012, 12:10:57 AM
 How about the FGM 1030 (40+") or the  1200 ? thats a round  47 " inside  and a beautiful oven as well. And - you can then do those 150 people parties right ??
Good luck with your decision go with your gut I cant wait to see the build whatever you choose Have you looked at the Stefano Ferraro  or Acunto ;D
John

Yeah, I looked at the Ferraro. Like a restaurant without prices on the menu. I like the 1200, but even I admit 47" is way too big.  I'm considering the 1500B short (38x45) and still the 950B and CF?  I think the 1500 tall and CF would actually be similar in many ways. Just that the 1500 has a lot more joints in the dome and saves about $4k over the CF.

I like the bird idea. A big turkey is the biggest thing I would put in it. Split in half would work easy, but I'd have to take it on faith. Pizza is the main priority with bread coming in a distant second.
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: scott123 on September 27, 2012, 04:51:55 AM
Reep, what's the price on the CF?

Also, what's the door height?
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: JConk007 on September 27, 2012, 08:34:26 AM
Scott I know the door on the FGM is 8.5" and the Dome is 9.8" so that 63% ration does not work out right? You can go raised +3" and use same door. But I did cook in it as listed and did not  notice any effect of heat loss with the low dome  just some really nice top heat! What ya thinking
John
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: Reep on September 27, 2012, 11:10:12 AM
Reep, what's the price on the CF?

Also, what's the door height?

$11.5k or so delivered. Door height of about 10".  FGM 1500 tall is about $7.5k delivered, and I could have a 12.5" dome with 8.5" or 11.5" door.
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: scott123 on September 27, 2012, 06:39:52 PM
John, I'm still not in love with the door height on the 950.  From a door perspective, the CF is a hands down winner, imo.  But I'm also not entirely sold on the CF either.  Something feels off.  I'm a bit concerned about the entryway.  If it's uninsulated stainless, that's going to be a major problem. Even if it's insulated stainless, I'm still concerned.  Hopefully I'm wrong about this and the front of the oven has some thermal mass, but, if it doesn't, that's going to make for much more uneven bakes. You can probably compensate with a few extra turns, but, imo, the front of the oven should have at least thermal mass and preferably insulation as well. The door can be uninsulated, but only if it's a small door (like the Ferrara).

It's hard to tell, but the shape of the ceiling on the CF might be a bit wacky as well.

Don't get me wrong, the MFC 110 is a superior oven to the 950, but... before I'd ever spend 11.5K, I would definitely like to see what the front of the oven is made out of.

Reep, in theory, an oblong oven should perform beautifully, but there are no members on this forum that use oblong ovens, nor are there homeowners outside of this forum using them. At least, none that I'm aware of.  If it were me, I don't think I'd want to be the first. I know that a lot of members complain about not buying a large enough oven, but I highly doubt you'll need anything larger than the 40" 1030C.

Now, the 1030C is low mass/quick pre-heat, which might end up working great for family night pizza, but not so great for residual heat baking, but you're not going to get every feature you're looking for in a single oven.

It seems like you have the money and the space.  Have you considered two ovens? One small-ish for quick pre-heats and another larger for bigger events and/or a greater variety of foods?
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: scott123 on September 27, 2012, 06:52:37 PM
Scott I know the door on the FGM is 8.5" and the Dome is 9.8" so that 63% ration does not work out right? You can go raised +3" and use same door.

An 8.5" door with a 12.8" ceiling wouldn't be bad, but the 63% rule relates to the inner door as well- the pre-chimney opening.  It's the inner door that's critical to keeping the superheated gases in the oven as long as possible and the small outer, post chimney door doesn't affect that. Once you go past the chimney, door size gets a lot less important.

This is why I've been asking Antoine for a cast iron insert for the inside opening- something that will bring it down a few more inches- without making it much narrower so you can still comfortably launch large pizzas.
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: Reep on September 27, 2012, 08:24:54 PM
Interesting thought. I could do a FGM 950 low and Earthstone 110 for less than the MC.  If nothing else it would be fun to experiment.

It would be nice to have one for family meals and then one for bigger events/projects.
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: shuboyje on September 27, 2012, 08:38:22 PM
Reep,

Where are you located?  Generally I wouldn't mention it due to cost, but considering what you are looking at I think the option of having a custom oven built by stovemasters would be within reason.

http://www.stovemaster.com/html_en/commercial_brick_oven.html

Being custom they could build exactly what you want, and the quality of masonry work on their oven is second to none, FAR above anything I've seen built in Italy.  Their standard commercial design scaled down to 42" with a smaller door and less massive vent would probably be perfect for you.
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: scott123 on September 27, 2012, 09:21:14 PM
Jeff, what's the average dome height on the Stovemasters?
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: shuboyje on September 27, 2012, 09:54:55 PM
Here's a 48" with a 17" dome:
http://www.stovemaster.com/html_en/articles_9.html

They also show a 60" with a 18" dome.

Both are a bit higher then I like, but for their sizes they aren't too bad.  Again, considering they are custom built I'm sure a lower dome could be done if the person buying the oven requested.  A custom oven built to this caliber is really gonna be the Cadillac option for a home builder who can afford it.  Commercial ovens may seem great, but most seem to lack thermal efficiency in one place or another.  For a commercial oven that is always hot that is ok, but for a home oven fired from cold it can really be an issue.
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: JConk007 on September 27, 2012, 10:27:10 PM
door looks big!
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: Reep on September 28, 2012, 01:00:11 AM
Reep,

Where are you located?  Generally I wouldn't mention it due to cost, but considering what you are looking at I think the option of having a custom oven built by stovemasters would be within reason.

http://www.stovemaster.com/html_en/commercial_brick_oven.html

I'm in SoCal.  Looks like they are East coast or Washington. 

I'm not sure I could really appreciate a great oven like that.  I just want something versatile and user friendly.
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: Reep on September 28, 2012, 12:37:51 PM
But I'm also not entirely sold on the CF either.  Something feels off.  I'm a bit concerned about the entryway.  If it's uninsulated stainless, that's going to be a major problem. Even if it's insulated stainless, I'm still concerned.  Hopefully I'm wrong about this and the front of the oven has some thermal mass, but, if it doesn't, that's going to make for much more uneven bakes.

Here is an updated schematic of the CF.  Looks like solid mass all the way up around the door opening:
http://person.smugmug.com/Hobbies/Outdoor-Kitchen/i-dgzSxJn/0/XL/110WoodTradSpecsPage2-XL.jpg (http://person.smugmug.com/Hobbies/Outdoor-Kitchen/i-dgzSxJn/0/XL/110WoodTradSpecsPage2-XL.jpg)
Although, these might not be super accurate as they state that the dome is 4" thick, but show the outside diameter at 49.5" and the interior as 44" [(49.5-44)/2=2.75" not 4", but the top of the dome appears to be thicker than the sides.

Now, the 1030C is low mass/quick pre-heat, which might end up working great for family night pizza, but not so great for residual heat baking, but you're not going to get every feature you're looking for in a single oven.

I do like the size of this oven, but really want to do some backing that would require more thermal mass.  Funny that almost nobody makes a 40" mass oven.  They all seem to jump from 35/37" up to 43".

It seems like you have the money and the space.  Have you considered two ovens? One small-ish for quick pre-heats and another larger for bigger events and/or a greater variety of foods?

The biggest problem I would have is that I would have to redesign on the fly to create another deep footer and depth space for the additional oven.  Right now I only have one space set up to hold that much weight and accommodate the depth.  I could go over/under, but that may cause loading issues as neither would be optimal height.
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: Reep on September 28, 2012, 01:34:52 PM
Have you looked at the Stefano Ferraro  or Acunto ;D
John

John, I mistakenly had the wrong pricing for the Stefano Ferraro.  It actually appears to be very close to the Marra Forni.  Certainly a bigger oven than I need, but one I should check into.
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: Reep on September 28, 2012, 07:46:41 PM
If one were to purchase an FGM "high" with the 12.8" dome and 11.5" door, would it be all that hard to build your own insert to lower the inner door height to 8.5"?  If you had such an insert, then you could have the best of both worlds.  11.5" door for the turkey, and use the insert when you want to cook neo pizza?  It's main goal would be to prevent the hotter higher air from escaping as easily, so it would only have to handle the heat.  Maybe make a metal band in the shape of the new inner door and top it with fire brick to the shape of the old inner door.  It would not have to be a perfect fit, just enough to block most air flow.

For those of you who are builders, could you not just mortar in an inner door solution as well?  Maybe support it with some thin pieces on the sides of the door to keep it in place and not lose too much width?

I'm still not sure that the 11.5" door is really a problem as the convection within the oven is likely circulating the air quite a bit as it is.  If the air temp differential is great, then you are not getting much convection.  If one assumes that all the air (top to bottom) in the oven is of a similar temperature then the difference between the 11.5" door and the 10" door on most similar ovens isn't as significant as the open area represented by the whole door.  I know the 0.63 door ratio is the standard throughout time, but that doesn't really mean there is any scientific basis for it, or that it is any more important than an arched or square door shape.

But, it might be and I'm not sure I want to spend $$$ to find out.   :-\
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: JConk007 on September 28, 2012, 10:42:25 PM
Option 8 get a small portable oven like a  primavera 60 put on wheels maybe? and you can allways sell this later, most here would be happy  to have any WFO . Then learn how to make pizza decide if you even like the work involved   and keep doing research for a few months.? And Keep Scott123 in the WFO loop  ;)  there are other forums as well that may be helpful in your quest for the perfect oven. Not sure we can do more ?
I am stickin with the solid reasonable choice here for a home oven the FGM 950 B (raised it you want ) Done  :pizza:
Have you decided what tools you will be using ? I can help with that for sure much easier question for me, and  Ihope you  remember me when the time comes  Thanks Reep!
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: Reep on September 29, 2012, 12:38:45 AM
Option 8 get a small portable oven like a  primavera 60 put on wheels maybe? and you can allways sell this later, most here would be happy  to have any WFO . Then learn how to make pizza decide if you even like the work involved   and keep doing research for a few months.? And Keep Scott123 in the WFO loop  ;)  there are other forums as well that may be helpful in your quest for the perfect oven. Not sure we can do more ?
I am stickin with the solid reasonable choice here for a home oven the FGM 950 B (raised it you want ) Done  :pizza:
Have you decided what tools you will be using ? I can help with that for sure much easier question for me, and  Ihope you  remember me when the time comes  Thanks Reep!


I'm a self-confessed compulsive overanalyzer.  This is what I do. 

Yeah, I have the information I need and just need to make the choice.  I'm pretty close, but will be going over to a friends for pizza in his wood oven (Fogazzo), so maybe I will get some more insights before I decide.
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: scott123 on September 29, 2012, 02:55:58 AM
Here is an updated schematic of the CF.  Looks like solid mass all the way up around the door opening:
http://person.smugmug.com/Hobbies/Outdoor-Kitchen/i-dgzSxJn/0/XL/110WoodTradSpecsPage2-XL.jpg (http://person.smugmug.com/Hobbies/Outdoor-Kitchen/i-dgzSxJn/0/XL/110WoodTradSpecsPage2-XL.jpg)
Although, these might not be super accurate as they state that the dome is 4" thick, but show the outside diameter at 49.5" and the interior as 44" [(49.5-44)/2=2.75" not 4", but the top of the dome appears to be thicker than the sides.

Actually, I was looking at the Neapolitan model and not the Traditional.

If you can afford a Ferrara and don't mind a long  pre-heat (most like a minimum of 8 hours for pizza), then I'd go with the Ferrara over the CF. Completely different league.
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: scott123 on September 29, 2012, 03:10:37 AM
If one were to purchase an FGM "high" with the 12.8" dome and 11.5" door, would it be all that hard to build your own insert to lower the inner door height to 8.5"?  If you had such an insert, then you could have the best of both worlds.  11.5" door for the turkey, and use the insert when you want to cook neo pizza?  It's main goal would be to prevent the hotter higher air from escaping as easily, so it would only have to handle the heat.  Maybe make a metal band in the shape of the new inner door and top it with fire brick to the shape of the old inner door.  It would not have to be a perfect fit, just enough to block most air flow.

For those of you who are builders, could you not just mortar in an inner door solution as well?  Maybe support it with some thin pieces on the sides of the door to keep it in place and not lose too much width?

Yes, until Antoine comes up with a cast iron insert, I think a homegrown approach is an excellent idea.

I was thinking about this yesterday.  While it would be nice if the insert could be insulated and/or have some mass, neither are critical.  The main purpose is trapping hot air so that it contacts the dome longer before flowing under the inner door and up the chimney.  The lower the inner door, to a point, the more heat you're capturing in the dome. The higher the inner door, the more heat is lost up the chimney.

You might even be able to get away with something like copper flashing. You will want it to be fairly snug, though, so the gases are forced underneath it.
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: Reep on September 29, 2012, 09:42:13 AM
Actually, I was looking at the Neapolitan model and not the Traditional.

It doesn't appear that the Neapolitan model is made by CF.  I'm checking this to see who makes them.  FWIW, I saw in a video that Tony G's oven is the Traditional.

I'm still getting prices on a couple of fully completed ovens to see if I can get one close, but I think I could set up a FGM tall and find a way to get the internal door lowered.
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: TXCraig1 on September 29, 2012, 10:19:51 AM
Yes, until Antoine comes up with a cast iron insert, I think a homegrown approach is an excellent idea.

I was thinking about this yesterday.  While it would be nice if the insert could be insulated and/or have some mass, neither are critical.  The main purpose is trapping hot air so that it contacts the dome longer before flowing under the inner door and up the chimney.  The lower the inner door, to a point, the more heat you're capturing in the dome. The higher the inner door, the more heat is lost up the chimney.

You might even be able to get away with something like copper flashing. You will want it to be fairly snug, though, so the gases are forced underneath it.

Scott, just thinking out loud here; how much difference could a couple inches of hot air make? Air doesn’t hold much heat. If you reduce the size of the door opening, you are also going to restrict the oxygen flow, right? I’d be more worried about the effect this had on the ability of the fire to convert fuel to heat. I would think a couple inches of hot air is a poor tradeoff for a cooler fire.
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: Reep on September 29, 2012, 02:11:13 PM
Scott, just thinking out loud here; how much difference could a couple inches of hot air make? Air doesn’t hold much heat. If you reduce the size of the door opening, you are also going to restrict the oxygen flow, right? I’d be more worried about the effect this had on the ability of the fire to convert fuel to heat. I would think a couple inches of hot air is a poor tradeoff for a cooler fire.

I think I may have a solution figure out.  I am going to talk to Antione about including an extra "insulated door" if I go with FGM.  The FGM insulated door fits inside the flush with the oven opening.  If I had an extra one of these I could cut an opening in it to 63% of the dome height and leave an inch or so of support on each side that would still allow pizzas up to 16" inches to pass through.  The insulated door is made to fit so this should be easy.  This way I could experiment with both openings.  If the restricted opening works, I can use it when cooking pizza and then remove it when i want to have a larger opening.  Best of both worlds.  Maybe FGM will manufacture it and call it a Reep Restrictor, or preferably something in French that sounds better.
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: shuboyje on September 29, 2012, 03:15:31 PM
Sounds like a great solution. 
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: JConk007 on September 29, 2012, 09:58:41 PM
Kinda gotta go with Craig here. Scott I admire your research and number crunching but have you cooked in the FGM ? or the CF ?  Is there goto oven formula, ratio recipe you are striving for, and why again?  Homeowner specific.
I mentioned I have and did cook in the 950 and did not notice a loss in heat out the chimney? they have been making them this way for years and a lot of them ! aint broke dont fix it ! or rig it ! I am telling you in my rookie opinion these ovens Make a good neapolitan style  pizza ! Not a Stefano, but close to 1/2 the price all in right?
Thanks
John
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: scott123 on September 30, 2012, 06:42:37 AM
John, I don't have to use an FGM or a CF to be able to understand the thermodynamics involved.  I've taken one of Jeff's diagrams (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,19857.msg195826.html#msg195826) and modified it to show what happens when the door is too high.
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: scott123 on September 30, 2012, 07:06:44 AM
As you can see, when the door is too high, less of the superheated air is trapped in the dome. With less trapped superheated air, you get less heat transfer to the dome.  The lower the door, the longer you can keep the heat in the oven, the hotter the dome gets. We're not talking about a huge amount of time- the hot air might stay in the oven just a fraction of a second longer, but it's enough time for the exhaust gases on oven #1 (higher door) to be hotter than the the exhaust gases on oven #2.  Hotter exhaust gases translates into more heat loss on the high door. For the properly sized door you're talking about a faster pre-heat and a hotter dome overall.

Craig, since the door serves both the duties of exhaust and fresh air intake, you do have to be careful about how small you make the opening, but that's where the 63% ratio comes into play.  The Italians have been testing this for centuries and that's what they arrived at.  Like Jeff, I'm not in love with that exact figure, but I am head over heels for that realm- maybe 55%-70%, depending on the size of the oven, shape of the door and other factors.  Above 70%, though, and you're flushing wood down the drain.

Now, a high door, like a high ceiling, can definitely be worked around.  If you throw enough wood at it, it will get plenty hot.  But if a simple insert can make this oven more efficient (and I'll bet any amount of money it will), then I strongly feel that it's worth adding.
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: Reep on September 30, 2012, 09:46:46 AM
The challenge with using those diagrams is that they don't really accurately reflect the thermodynamics.  The air is obviously a continuum of temperatures, not quantum levels, and also the oven should be full of convection currents stirring the air, not to mention what happens when you move wood around or put a pizza in and out.

I don't disagree that a lower door might be important, but you would have to look at a lot more variables to scientifically come to that conclusion.  Maybe I will publish a paper in Pizza Science Magazine if I can get the Reep door to work.
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: shuboyje on September 30, 2012, 10:41:32 AM
The challenge with using those diagrams is that they don't really accurately reflect the thermodynamics.  The air is obviously a continuum of temperatures, not quantum levels, and also the oven should be full of convection currents stirring the air, not to mention what happens when you move wood around or put a pizza in and out.

I don't disagree that a lower door might be important, but you would have to look at a lot more variables to scientifically come to that conclusion.  Maybe I will publish a paper in Pizza Science Magazine if I can get the Reep door to work.

This is actually not true.  In a properly built oven the air is very stratified, you can actually visibly see it via smoke, and you can read it slightly with an IR thermometer and you move down from the peak of the dome.  It's all about density and the pressure differences it causes.  Inside the oven you have a huge pressure difference between the ambient outside air coming in to feed the fire and the hot gases coming off the fire.  These lead to a huge pressure differential between the two gases and a VERY stratified environment.
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: TXCraig1 on September 30, 2012, 02:14:43 PM
Now, a high door, like a high ceiling, can definitely be worked around.  If you throw enough wood at it, it will get plenty hot.  

And you will have terribly unbalanced heat that will burn the edges of your pies.

I'm still unclear how a couple extra inches of hot air at the ceiling is going to make a meaningful difference?

The temperature of the dome itself and the height of the dome are what really matter, right? The power radiated from the dome is a 4th order function of the temperature of the dome - for example, a 1200F dome would theoretically radiate more than 2X as much power as a 900F dome. Likewise, increasing the dome height decreases the view factor thus reducing the radiated power that strikes the pie. Compounding this, a high dome is harder to heat for the same reason. What role does the extra hot air play?
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: shuboyje on September 30, 2012, 03:17:00 PM
Have you ever cooked pizza in your oven without live fire Craig?  I understand the reasoning, and it is sound, but doesn't match what I have experienced in multiple ovens, I know we touched on this from a different angle in another thread.  Radiation off of the bricks doesn't have the power to cook the top of a pizza at neapolitan bake times, it's all about the convection.  Change the dynamics of the door and you change that convection.

Regardless of all the technical and theoretical stuff, the 950B works, and cooks a great Neapolitan pie from everything we have seen.  Added to that Antoine has offered a great solution for the case where the door height is an issue.  I think we are really talking about a moot point.
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: TXCraig1 on September 30, 2012, 04:07:13 PM
Have you ever cooked pizza in your oven without live fire Craig?  I understand the reasoning, and it is sound, but doesn't match what I have experienced in multiple ovens, I know we touched on this from a different angle in another thread.  Radiation off of the bricks doesn't have the power to cook the top of a pizza at neapolitan bake times, it's all about the convection.  Change the dynamics of the door and you change that convection.

Regardless of all the technical and theoretical stuff, the 950B works, and cooks a great Neapolitan pie from everything we have seen.  Added to that Antoine has offered a great solution for the case where the door height is an issue.  I think we are really talking about a moot point.

That's where I was trying to get to - we know the 950B works. I think it is the low dome overriding other factors. 

I have cooked a pizza without live fire, and I don't like it. I don't however understand how does that relates to the issue at hand? The flames put off a lot of radiant energy, right? That's the difference between flames and no flames.
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: Tscarborough on September 30, 2012, 04:16:27 PM
I didn't read the whole thread, but Scott's diagrams are not correct.  There is no inversion layer trapping superheated air against the dome, the convection is visible in the oven in use and it sweeps the dome.  Any superheated air is below that in the center of the dome where a rolling cloud of smoke is visible if enough logs are added to create smoke.
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: Reep on September 30, 2012, 10:01:58 PM
Well, to partially close out this thread, I am scheduled to call Antoine tomorrow and discuss the options.  Either way it looks like I'm going with a 1500B (22-short) high (12.8" dome).  Thank you all for your valuable input.  It has been very helpful.

Rich

P.S. I start a new thread with pictures and progress of the construction.
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: scott123 on September 30, 2012, 11:21:33 PM
I didn't read the whole thread, but Scott's diagrams are not correct.  There is no inversion layer trapping superheated air against the dome, the convection is visible in the oven in use and it sweeps the dome.  Any superheated air is below that in the center of the dome where a rolling cloud of smoke is visible if enough logs are added to create smoke.

Tom, the exhaust layer isn't trapping heat, it's the top of the dome that's trapping the heat as it rises. This really isn't all that complicated.  Hot air rises.  Cooler exhaust air sinks.  The rolling layer of smoke we've all seen at the door level is cooler then the air above it.
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: scott123 on September 30, 2012, 11:45:09 PM
I'm still unclear how a couple extra inches of hot air at the ceiling is going to make a meaningful difference?

The temperature of the dome itself and the height of the dome are what really matter, right? The power radiated from the dome is a 4th order function of the temperature of the dome - for example, a 1200F dome would theoretically radiate more than 2X as much power as a 900F dome. Likewise, increasing the dome height decreases the view factor thus reducing the radiated power that strikes the pie. Compounding this, a high dome is harder to heat for the same reason. What role does the extra hot air play?

The extra hot air makes for a hotter dome. It's kind of like when you pre-heat a home oven using the bake function and then turn the broiler on. The convective air rising from the bake element below pre-heats the ceiling of the oven, so that when you turn the broiler on, the top of the oven AND the broiler are radiating heat down.  Just like the active fire/red hot coals in a WFO are doing the lions share of the IR, the broiler element is doing the bulk of the work, but the air heated ceiling plays a part. In a WFO, where the ceiling has significant thermal mass, this role is even greater.

In a perfectly cylindrical 42" oven, a 2" lower door translates into 264 square inches of additional brick surface area contacting the hot air and 2772 cubic inches (19 cubic feet) of additional hot air volume.  That triples the volume of the 1" head space created by the original door.  And that's with a perfect cylinder.  With a rounded dome, that 1" of head space with the original door could be 1/5 to 1/6 of the head space with the 2" lower door. 5 times more volume translates into 5 times the space for superheated air.
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: Reep on October 01, 2012, 12:06:23 AM
The extra hot air makes for a hotter dome. It's kind of like when you pre-heat a home oven using the bake function and then turn the broiler on. The convective air rising from the bake element below pre-heats the ceiling of the oven, so that when you turn the broiler on, the top of the oven AND the broiler are radiating heat down.  Just like the active fire/red hot coals in a WFO are doing the lions share of the IR, the broiler element is doing the bulk of the work, but the air heated ceiling plays a part. In a WFO, where the ceiling has significant thermal mass, this role is even greater.

In a perfectly cylindrical 42" oven, a 2" lower door translates into 264 square inches of additional brick surface area contacting the hot air and 2772 cubic inches (19 cubic feet) of additional hot air volume.  That triples the volume of the 1" head space created by the original door.  And that's with a perfect cylinder.  With a rounded dome, that 1" of head space with the original door could be 1/5 to 1/6 of the head space with the 2" lower door. 5 times more volume translates into 5 times the space for superheated air.

If that is true, and the primary factor, then should it take 5-6x as long for an FGM oven to heat up, and 5-6x the amount of fuel to keep it hot?  This isn't the case according to those who have used both door heights.  I think there are many more factors involved than just the hot air trapped above the door.

Also, remember that you can only count the dome space in the vicinity of the door, not the back of the oven.  Otherwise you could argue that a 1-inch wide and 16-inch high door on a 16-inch dome oven would not retain any heat, which isn't the case either.
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: scott123 on October 01, 2012, 12:15:39 AM
If that is true, and the primary factor, then should it take 5-6x as long for an FGM oven to heat up, and 5-6x the amount of fuel to keep it hot?  This isn't the case according to those who have used both door heights.  I think there are many more factors involved than just the hot air trapped above the door.

I didn't say that hot air volume was a primary factor in pre-heating and high temperature maintenance.  It is a contributing factor.
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: scott123 on October 01, 2012, 12:43:41 AM
Also, remember that you can only count the dome space in the vicinity of the door, not the back of the oven.

While the front of the dome gets hotter than the rear, the whole dome is heated by the superheated air.  If the whole dome is heated, the dome in the back gets counted.

Fabricate an insert, and pre-heat the oven with and without it. If the insert doesn't trim off at least 1/4 of the pre-heat time (and use at least 1/4 less wood to reach the same temps), I'll eat my hat.
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: TXCraig1 on October 01, 2012, 09:55:40 AM
Tom, the exhaust layer isn't trapping heat, it's the top of the dome that's trapping the heat as it rises. This really isn't all that complicated.  Hot air rises.  Cooler exhaust air sinks.  The rolling layer of smoke we've all seen at the door level is cooler then the air above it.

Are you sure about that? My recollection is that the smoke after adding a log to a hot oven is at the upper level of the oven. Isn't that why there is a layer? The cooler, denser air below traps the particulate matter in the upper part of the oven?
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: TXCraig1 on October 01, 2012, 11:24:58 AM
In a perfectly cylindrical 42" oven, a 2" lower door translates into 264 square inches of additional brick surface area contacting the hot air

And 264in2 of additional brick surface area and who knows how much additional mass that must be heated.


Quote
and 2772 cubic inches (19 cubic feet) of additional hot air volume.  That triples the volume of the 1" head space created by the original door.  

Triple sounds impressive, but consider the numbers. (N.B. 2,772 in3 = 1.6ft3)

Let’s say the superheated air is 1500F/1089K

2,772in3 = 0.0454m3

At 1089K, the density of air is .3243kg/m3, so you have 0.0147kg of air in the extra 2”

At 1089K, the specific enthalpy of air is 1,149kJ/kg, so the energy of the extra 2” of air is 16.9kJ or 0.017MJ

There is about 10.4MJ/kg recoverable energy in oak firewood, so the energy in the air in the extra 2” is about the equivalent of 0.0016kg or 0.06oz of oak.

Here is what that looks like (paper clip for scale):
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: Chicago Bob on October 01, 2012, 11:42:59 AM

Fabricate an insert, and pre-heat the oven with and without it. If the insert doesn't trim off at least 1/4 of the pre-heat time (and use at least 1/4 less wood to reach the same temps), I'll eat my hat.
Mmmm.... :chef:
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: Reep on October 01, 2012, 11:46:19 AM
Craig is giving me nightmares of may P-chem courses in graduate school.

It will be a while, but I will have a way to test the oven under both conditions.  I'll weigh out the same amount of wood, burn it under the same conditions and at the same time point after lighting I will take a temp measurement of the dome and floor and compare them.  It will be a while though, so Scott better not salt his hat yet.
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: TXCraig1 on October 01, 2012, 12:05:39 PM
It will be a while, but I will have a way to test the oven under both conditions.  I'll weigh out the same amount of wood, burn it under the same conditions and at the same time point after lighting I will take a temp measurement of the dome and floor and compare them.  It will be a while though, so Scott better not salt his hat yet.

Remember the most important of the "same conditions" are the moisture content of the wood, the ambient air temperature, and the initial heat content of the oven which, of course, is at least partially a function of the ambient air temperature. If there has been a big swing in ambient temperature (particularly if there is also wind) before the test, the starting temperature of the oven might not be a reliable indicator of heat content. Small differences in moisture content of the wood will make a big difference in the test.
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: Reep on October 01, 2012, 12:27:28 PM
Remember the most important of the "same conditions" are the moisture content of the wood, the ambient air temperature, and the initial heat content of the oven which, of course, is at least partially a function of the ambient air temperature. If there has been a big swing in ambient temperature (particularly if there is also wind) before the test, the starting temperature of the oven might not be a reliable indicator of heat content. Small differences in moisture content of the wood will make a big difference in the test.

Yeah, I can use the same lot of wood, and in SoCal we have a lot of very mild days, so consistency isn't a problem.  I can even take starting surface temperatures to make sure it's the same.  I have a Ph.D. in science so I think I can eliminate most variables and get a good result.  I will wait until the oven is well broken in too so we don't get any variation from that.

Now, off to order my oven.
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: TXCraig1 on October 01, 2012, 12:56:01 PM
Yeah, I can use the same lot of wood, and in SoCal we have a lot of very mild days, so consistency isn't a problem.  I can even take starting surface temperatures to make sure it's the same.  I have a Ph.D. in science so I think I can eliminate most variables and get a good result.  I will wait until the oven is well broken in too so we don't get any variation from that.

Now, off to order my oven.

I look forward to the results.
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: JConk007 on October 01, 2012, 08:14:57 PM
Holy Moly way too complicated Lost me on the first X2?  I prefer results
The first 2 pictures  are from ???? oven and second 2 are from ????
same Batch of wood !
options are Mobile , Earthstone , and Four Grand Mere   ???
John
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: Chicago Bob on October 01, 2012, 08:25:30 PM
Gorgeous pies John...you deserve an icy cold Margareta...top shelf.  ;)
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: JConk007 on October 01, 2012, 08:54:46 PM
its  about the different ovens and all the hoopla on heat loss, floor temp gases....  :o
Boggles my mind you cant go wrong with either as I said before. Build 1 . go to italy for a month and train ? come back its done and have some fun !
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: Reep on October 01, 2012, 10:33:40 PM
its  about the different ovens and all the hoopla on heat loss, floor temp gases....  :o
Boggles my mind you cant go wrong with either as I said before. Build 1 . go to italy for a month and train ? come back its done and have some fun !

Yeah.  Your first hand experience with all these was very valuable.  I still want to play with the door opening out of curiosity, but I know I will love my oven. 

Okay, so I like the bottom pie the best.  Which oven?
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: JConk007 on October 01, 2012, 10:42:35 PM
The Bottom Pie was from the  Four Grand Mere Party I did for RickM now a member here andcame over last night. You can confirm it in my FWF thread toward end  before bacholorette party same pics are there  ;)
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: Reep on October 02, 2012, 12:27:21 AM
The Bottom Pie was from the  Four Grand Mere Party I did for RickM now a member here andcame over last night. You can confirm it in my FWF thread toward end  before bacholorette party same pics are there  ;)

Sweet.  I know the look of the top is mostly the skill of the chef, but both top and bottom looked great. 
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: scott123 on October 02, 2012, 04:11:17 AM
Triple sounds impressive, but consider the numbers. (N.B. 2,772 in3 = 1.6ft3)

Let’s say the superheated air is 1500F/1089K

2,772in3 = 0.0454m3

At 1089K, the density of air is .3243kg/m3, so you have 0.0147kg of air in the extra 2”

At 1089K, the specific enthalpy of air is 1,149kJ/kg, so the energy of the extra 2” of air is 16.9kJ or 0.017MJ

There is about 10.4MJ/kg recoverable energy in oak firewood, so the energy in the air in the extra 2” is about the equivalent of 0.0016kg or 0.06oz of oak.

According to this calculator (http://www.fornobravo.com/forum/f28/chimney-flow-rate-calculator-3905.html), the ideal flow rate for an 8" diameter 2' high chimney at 800F is .05799 m3/s.  In other words, the superheated air volume that we're discussing (0.0454m3) is being replaced every second (give or take). Based on your numbers, for a six hour preheat, the necessary energy to maintain that 1089K temp in that 2" of volume would translate into 81 lb. of wood. Now, this is an ideal flow rate for one chimney.  Even if the chimney is only drawing 1/4 of that, you're still talking 20 lb. of wood.

That's a lot of wood. A lot of energy.  If the draw keeps that superheated air in contact with the additional 2" wide surface area for a second (or more), over the course of six (or more) hours, that's a substantial amount of heat transfer, especially considering the convective impact of the perpetually moving air.
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: scott123 on October 02, 2012, 04:21:41 AM
Holy Moly way too complicated Lost me on the first X2?  I prefer results

John, buddy, we're talking about wood consumption here, along with peak dome temps. All your beautiful pizza photos prove is that just about any WFO can make stunning pizza.  That's not being argued here.  It wouldn't be easy, but I have no doubt that your stunning pies could be reproduced in a Mugnaini. And yet, no one here would ever recommend a Mugnaini to the original poster.

It's not about whether or not an oven can make great Neapolitan pizza, it's about whether or not it can make great Neapolitan pizza in the easiest and most efficient way possible.  The lower dome of the FGM is a critical part of that equation, but the door height (and potential insert to correct it) is a contributing factor as well.
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: TXCraig1 on October 02, 2012, 10:04:20 AM
According to this calculator (http://www.fornobravo.com/forum/f28/chimney-flow-rate-calculator-3905.html), the ideal flow rate for an 8" diameter 2' high chimney at 800F is .05799 m3/s.  In other words, the superheated air volume that we're discussing (0.0454m3) is being replaced every second (give or take). Based on your numbers, for a six hour preheat, the necessary energy to maintain that 1089K temp in that 2" of volume would translate into 81 lb. of wood. Now, this is an ideal flow rate for one chimney.  Even if the chimney is only drawing 1/4 of that, you're still talking 20 lb. of wood.

Scott,
Your calculation represents the amount of wood necessary to maintain the temperature of that 2” if you replaced the air every second with air at 0K. I also think the idea of replacement of that 2” is conceptually wrong. Say you have two ovens identical in every respect except that one has a 2” higher dome.  The flow rate is going to be virtually identical.

Quote
That's a lot of wood. A lot of energy.  If the draw keeps that superheated air in contact with the additional 2" wide surface area for a second (or more), over the course of six (or more) hours, that's a substantial amount of heat transfer, especially considering the convective impact of the perpetually moving air.

You make it sound like if you don’t have “superheated air” on that 2”, the air contacting it will be at ambient temperature. I would think that it would be only marginally cooler than the “superheated air.”   How big do you think the temperature differential is?

I believe the air temperature much smaller factor than the radiant energy coming off the fire with respect to heating the oven. For example, When I bring the fire down and move it from the middle to the left rear, the right side wall is usually about 925-950F. Within 30 minutes, that right wall will have cooled to 875F.
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: TXCraig1 on October 02, 2012, 10:12:50 AM
It's not about whether or not an oven can make great Neapolitan pizza, it's about whether or not it can make great Neapolitan pizza in the easiest and most efficient way possible.  The lower dome of the FGM is a critical part of that equation, but the door height (and potential insert to correct it) is a contributing factor as well.

How do you know that the extra radiant energy put on the pie from the improved view factor of the lower dome doesn't more than compensate for 2" less "superheated air" whatever that is?

How do you know that by restricting the airflow into the FGM as you have proposed, you won't more than offset any gains from the extra "superheated air" with losses in combustion efficiency?

How do you know the energy differential between "superheated air" and the other hot air in the upper part of the oven is even meaningful?
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: TXCraig1 on October 02, 2012, 10:18:15 AM
Scott, you may be right. I'm not trying to be combative. I'm just having a hard time seeing the basis for some of the assumptions that are being made.
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: scott123 on October 02, 2012, 11:43:56 AM
Your calculation represents the amount of wood necessary to maintain the temperature of that 2” if you replaced the air every second with air at 0K. I also think the idea of replacement of that 2” is conceptually wrong. Say you have two ovens identical in every respect except that one has a 2” higher dome.  The flow rate is going to be virtually identical.

Yes, the 0K was an error. All my figures are pretty rough. It still translates into a lot of wood using ambient temps for the replacement air.

The flow rate will be virtually identical. I'm not talking about two different rates, just two different flow distances. Car A is going 65 mph and Car B is going 65 mph, but Car B (the lower door) is on a slightly longer track.
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: Reep on October 02, 2012, 11:55:46 AM
John, buddy, we're talking about wood consumption here, along with peak dome temps. All your beautiful pizza photos prove is that just about any WFO can make stunning pizza.  

Except the OP cares more about making great pies than he does about how much wood he consumes to get the oven up to speed.   :angel:
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: scott123 on October 02, 2012, 12:10:08 PM
You make it sound like if you don’t have “superheated air” on that 2”, the air contacting it will be at ambient temperature. I would think that it would be only marginally cooler than the “superheated air.”   How big do you think the temperature differential is?

I believe the air temperature much smaller factor than the radiant energy coming off the fire with respect to heating the oven. For example, When I bring the fire down and move it from the middle to the left rear, the right side wall is usually about 925-950F. Within 30 minutes, that right wall will have cooled to 875F.

IR and conduction are big contributors to floor (and, to a certain extent, wall) heat, but dome heat relies a great deal on convection.  By it's nature, a fire, with it's massive amount of rising gases, is a strong convective force. The location of the fire obviously has an impact on that convection, so when you move the fire around temperatures are effected.

When you raise the door, the heat loss isn't going to cause the wall temps to plummet, but the area that isn't exposed to the superheated air isn't going to be as hot as if the door were lower.
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: scott123 on October 02, 2012, 12:15:15 PM
Except the OP cares more about making great pies than he does about how much wood he consumes to get the oven up to speed.   :angel:

The oven you're buying could easily require 8 hours to come up to proper Neapolitan temps. If an insert could trim that to 6 (or less) hours, wouldn't it be worth the effort to fabricate?
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: scott123 on October 02, 2012, 12:29:13 PM
How do you know that the extra radiant energy put on the pie from the improved view factor of the lower dome doesn't more than compensate for 2" less "superheated air" whatever that is?

How do you know that by restricting the airflow into the FGM as you have proposed, you won't more than offset any gains from the extra "superheated air" with losses in combustion efficiency?

Combustion is only effected if the fire isn't getting sufficient fresh air.  In theory, as long as you match the dimension of the chimney with the intake opening, combustion should be efficient, but it's not necessary to go that far.  63% has been proven, for centuries, to allow for efficient combustion will keeping the hot air in the oven as long as possible.

The low dome is a critical feature in and of itself and has no correlation to door sizing issues.  One doesn't compensate for the other. Both are important.  When ranking the importance of the features of Neapolitan ovens, I would give a low dome about an 8 out of 10 and a properly sized door about a 3. Most of the high dome ovens have properly sized 63%ish doors and I would never recommend them.  FGM is the clear winner, but it can definitely be improved upon.  Less wood/shorter pre-heats matter.

Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: scott123 on October 02, 2012, 12:45:16 PM
Scott, you may be right. I'm not trying to be combative. I'm just having a hard time seeing the basis for some of the assumptions that are being made.

No worries, Craig. 

Think about a wort chiller.  The more tubing/coils, the further the distance the wort travels through the copper tubing the more energy it gives off to the cooling liquid. A lower door extends the flow distance, leaving more energy in the oven rather than up the chimney. The traditional Neapolitan chimney loop back does the same thing, but on less significant scale. I know you don't believe in the benefits of the looped chimney, and, right now, I'm not entirely certain about the loop either, but the door I believe in.
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: TXCraig1 on October 02, 2012, 01:36:22 PM
IR and conduction are big contributors to floor (and, to a certain extent, wall) heat, but dome heat relies a great deal on convection.  By it's nature, a fire, with it's massive amount of rising gases, is a strong convective force. The location of the fire obviously has an impact on that convection, so when you move the fire around temperatures are effected.

When you raise the door, the heat loss isn't going to cause the wall temps to plummet, but the area that isn't exposed to the superheated air isn't going to be as hot as if the door were lower.

I'm still curious how you define "superheated" and what you think the temperature differential is between "superheated" are and the air right under it.
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: TXCraig1 on October 02, 2012, 01:57:18 PM
Combustion is only effected if the fire isn't getting sufficient fresh air.  In theory, as long as you match the dimension of the chimney with the intake opening, combustion should be efficient, but it's not necessary to go that far.  63% has been proven, for centuries, to allow for efficient combustion will keeping the hot air in the oven as long as possible.

There is more to it than that. 1) The size of the fire must also matter. At some point, the door opening will be too small for sufficient air to enter. If the FGM door is ideal as designed, wouldn’t making it smaller result in less efficient combustion or necessitate a smaller fire? 2) Combustion is not the only factor that must be brought into balance. A properly designed oven/chimney system will bring in as much air as needed and no more. Once you go beyond what is necessary for efficient combustion, you are bringing in unnecessary cold air. If you believe you can reduce the size of the FGM door without an adverse effect on combustion efficiency, are you not also saying that the door as designed is too big?

Quote
The low dome is a critical feature in and of itself and has no correlation to door sizing issues.  One doesn't compensate for the other. Both are important.  When ranking the importance of the features of Neapolitan ovens, I would give a low dome about an 8 out of 10 and a properly sized door about a 3. Most of the high dome ovens have properly sized 63%ish doors and I would never recommend them.  FGM is the clear winner, but it can definitely be improved upon.  Less wood/shorter pre-heats matter.

By saying "one doesn't compensate for the other," you are saying that there is only one right way to build an oven.

Why do you rule out the possibility that the lower ceiling of the FGM can get you to the same place as a higher ceiling and 63% door with equal efficiency? Perhaps the low-ceiling design of the FGM inherently lets you burn less wood due to a more efficient heating of the dome by the fire and an enhanced view factor? Just because a 63% door works in a NP oven of traditional proportions doesn’t make it a given that restricting the door opening will increase efficiency. I’m not convinced there won’t be unintended consequences affecting combustion efficiency.
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: TXCraig1 on October 02, 2012, 01:59:37 PM
No worries, Craig. 

Think about a wort chiller.  The more tubing/coils, the further the distance the wort travels through the copper tubing the more energy it gives off to the cooling liquid. A lower door extends the flow distance, leaving more energy in the oven rather than up the chimney. The traditional Neapolitan chimney loop back does the same thing, but on less significant scale. I know you don't believe in the benefits of the looped chimney, and, right now, I'm not entirely certain about the loop either, but the door I believe in.

I don't disagree with this. I'm simply having trouble believing that the difference will translate into material wood savings.
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: scott123 on October 02, 2012, 02:01:38 PM
I'm still curious how you define "superheated" and what you think the temperature differential is between "superheated" are and the air right under it.

Actually, I'm using the term 'superheated' because that's what Jeff used on his diagrams and I didn't change it.  It's just hotter air that has risen to the top of the oven.

Think of it this way.  Picture the IR coming off the flame heating the dome, as well as the dome that's in the way of the flame that, in turn, is conducting heat to the bricks around it.  Combine those two forces, accept the fact that they're doing the majority of the work, and then ignore them as if they didn't exist.  What's left is rising hot air- like a hot air balloon. The air at the top of the balloon is the hottest, and gets cooler as you drop.  If you poke a hole in the balloon towards the top, the air will be warmer than if you poke a hole towards the bottom.  If you poke the hole (exhaust) the air closer to the top, the balloon will sink faster than if you poke the hole further down. The higher the hole, the more heat is lost.

A higher dome oven with a 63%ish door would be far easier to test this, but you should be able to prove/disprove this with your Acunto. As the oven pre-heats, take readings of the wall just above the door level and just below. You should see a difference of at least 150 deg.
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: scott123 on October 02, 2012, 02:27:15 PM
There is more to it than that. 1) The size of the fire must also matter. At some point, the door opening will be too small for sufficient air to enter. If the FGM door is ideal as designed, wouldn’t making it smaller result in less efficient combustion or necessitate a smaller fire? 2) Combustion is not the only factor that must be brought into balance. A properly designed oven/chimney system will bring in as much air as needed and no more. Once you go beyond what is necessary for efficient combustion, you are bringing in unnecessary cold air. If you believe you can reduce the size of the FGM door without an adverse effect on combustion efficiency, are you not also saying that the door as designed is too big?

By saying "one doesn't compensate for the other," you are saying that there is only one right way to build an oven.

Why do you rule out the possibility that the lower ceiling of the FGM can get you to the same place as a higher ceiling and 63% door with equal efficiency? Perhaps the low-ceiling design of the FGM inherently lets you burn less wood due to a more efficient heating of the dome by the fire and an enhanced view factor? Just because a 63% door works in a NP oven of traditional proportions doesn’t make it a given that restricting the door opening will increase efficiency. I’m not convinced there won’t be unintended consequences affecting combustion efficiency.

The door, as designed, without any question, is too big. At least, it is for efficient Neapolitan pizzamaking.

I think it's important to be aware of the fact that the FGMs were never designed for Neapolitan pizza. They were designed to be used at much lower temperatures for bread- with a pre-heat and then retained heat baking with a closed door. We're taking a tool that was designed for something entirely different and trying to make it work for our needs.  It is only a stroke of luck that, for the sake of fuel efficiency, they made the decision to go with a lower dome.  Their choice of door size has no foundation whatsoever in high oven temperature thermodynamics. The door size decision was most likely based on the need for greater access for loading/unloading bread, as well as the possibility that, at some point, they might have used some kind of shelving system to fit more loaves.  The door size on the FGMs has absolutely nothing to do with efficiency- at least, not within the framework of Neapolitan temperatures. When you get into Neapolitan temps, it's the Neapolitans that have done their homework, not the French. Wood has been a scarce commodity in Naples for quite some time. These ratios (dome height to oven width, door height to dome height) were born out of necessity.  Whatever could produce the characteristically lightning fast bake times while using the least wood won the prize. The fittest ovens survived.  The FGMs didn't grow out of this necessity and thus are a bit wasteful at high temps. To achieve the best possible thermodynamics and fuel efficiency at high temps, there is only one way to build an oven, and the Neapolitans have, to a large extent, figured this out. It's not by chance that all the Neapolitan oven makers use pretty much the same ratios.

We can take this tool that was engineered for bread, and, with a simple insert, make it more Neapolitan pizza friendly.
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: TXCraig1 on October 02, 2012, 03:59:42 PM
The door, as designed, without any question, is too big. At least, it is for efficient Neapolitan pizzamaking.

I think it's important to be aware of the fact that the FGMs were never designed for Neapolitan pizza. They were designed to be used at much lower temperatures for bread- with a pre-heat and then retained heat baking with a closed door. We're taking a tool that was designed for something entirely different and trying to make it work for our needs.  It is only a stroke of luck that, for the sake of fuel efficiency, they made the decision to go with a lower dome.  Their choice of door size has no foundation whatsoever in high oven temperature thermodynamics. The door size decision was most likely based on the need for greater access for loading/unloading bread, as well as the possibility that, at some point, they might have used some kind of shelving system to fit more loaves.  The door size on the FGMs has absolutely nothing to do with efficiency- at least, not within the framework of Neapolitan temperatures. When you get into Neapolitan temps, it's the Neapolitans that have done their homework, not the French. Wood has been a scarce commodity in Naples for quite some time. These ratios (dome height to oven width, door height to dome height) were born out of necessity.  Whatever could produce the characteristically lightning fast bake times while using the least wood won the prize. The fittest ovens survived.  The FGMs didn't grow out of this necessity and thus are a bit wasteful at high temps. To achieve the best possible thermodynamics and fuel efficiency at high temps, there is only one way to build an oven, and the Neapolitans have, to a large extent, figured this out. It's not by chance that all the Neapolitan oven makers use pretty much the same ratios.

We can take this tool that was engineered for bread, and, with a simple insert, make it more Neapolitan pizza friendly.

Has someone who owns a FGM told you it is wasteful at high temp?
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: Reep on October 02, 2012, 04:12:39 PM
If you poke the hole (exhaust) the air closer to the top, the balloon will sink faster than if you poke the hole further down. The higher the hole, the more heat is lost.

As a former hot air balloon owner I agree this is true, but the inside of the balloon is not in a constant state of convection.  You only heat every once in a while and the rest of the time the air is still.

As the oven pre-heats, take readings of the wall just above the door level and just below. You should see a difference of at least 150 deg.

Also, readings off the wall at different heights do not reflect the temperature of the air at those heights.  You may be right, but this would not be an accurate way to test it.
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: scott123 on October 02, 2012, 05:32:32 PM
As a former hot air balloon owner I agree this is true, but the inside of the balloon is not in a constant state of convection.

If you poked a hole in it, it would be  ;D
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: Reep on October 02, 2012, 05:34:19 PM
If you poked a hole in it, it would be  ;D

Until it hit the ground, then it would be steady state . . . as would I.
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: shuboyje on October 02, 2012, 07:09:24 PM
Mods,
Any chance of splitting this off of Reeps thread?

I've always felt that the oven door is pretty critical.  Thermally speaking it is a masonry black ovens biggest issue.  Think about it, you have a giant gapping hole in the side of the oven you are trying to keep heat inside of, logically that leeds to the fact that as small as possible while still meeting all of it's functional requirements would be ideal.  63% is a good number, it is proven to work, but I don't feel it is the only way to go.  One glaring flaw in the idea behind 63% is the fact that it doesn't take door shape into consideration.  a 63% rectangular opening and a 63% arch are not the same.  Somewhere on FB I have graphics with all the numbers showing this if anybody wants to look them up, lol.  Another point against 63% is the fact the Neapolitans don't use it.  They use one standard door size, which I bet most people who work with a Neapolitan oven daily will tell you is just about the minimum size possible to do everything you need to do though that opening. 

So, although 63% is a good rule of thumb, and if building an oven one worth working with, I don't think it's the end all be all some people think.  I've seen many "veteran" members of FB advice people to demolish newly built ovens that do not have 63% doors, because "the oven won't work".  Do I LOVE the door height on FGM ovens?  Certainly not, I'd love to see the standard neapolitan sized door used on all their oven(or really the 18 x 8 arch door I prefer), especially the extended height versions.  Would it ever stop me from recommending an FGM oven?  No way, from everything I have seen these are the best oven kits on the market for Neapolitan pizza, especially the Brick versions.

Can't wait to see the oven Reep, I know you are gonna love it! 
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: Pete-zza on October 02, 2012, 07:57:57 PM
Jeff,

At which post would you suggest the split take place, and would all of the posts after that post be included? And what would you suggest the split thread be named?

Peter
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: Reep on October 02, 2012, 08:00:18 PM
Can't wait to see the oven Reep, I know you are gonna love it! 

Unfortunately (or fortunately) it is now being built in France.  So, it will be a while.
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: Reep on October 02, 2012, 08:01:14 PM
Jeff,

At which post would you suggest the split take place, and would all of the posts after that post be included? And what would you suggest the split thread be named?

Peter

FWIW, the original issue is resolved and I ordered my oven.  So, you can do whatever you like with the rest of the thread.
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: JConk007 on October 02, 2012, 08:02:43 PM
looks like we went off late in Pg 2 early Pg 3?
called
High dome vs. Low dome or does door size matter ?
John
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: scott123 on October 02, 2012, 08:22:54 PM
Do we really need to put Peter through the extra work of splitting this up?  The topic of the thread is WFO purchasing concerns and everything we've discussed has related to that.  It's been a bit more than Reep asked for, but, as he said, he's gotten the info he needs, has purchased the oven, and, when the oven arrives, he's planning on starting a new thread.

I'm fine with it being split, but I think the thread has pretty much run it's course and splitting it would take some work.
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: shuboyje on October 02, 2012, 08:26:44 PM
Do we really need to put Peter through the extra work of splitting this up?  The topic of the thread is WFO purchasing concerns and everything we've discussed has related to that.  It's been a bit more than Reeped asked for, but, as he said, he's gotten the info he needs, has purchased the oven, and, when the oven arrives, he's planning on starting a new thread.

I'm fine with it being split, but I think the thread has pretty much run it's course and splitting it would take some work.

Works for me.  Some people are sensitive about their thread, Reep doesn't seem to be.  I too wouldn't want to make extra work if not needed.
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: Tscarborough on October 03, 2012, 09:44:06 AM
Surface area of a low dome 42" oven with a sailor course and 15" ceiling = 10,820 sqin.  18x9 door = 162 sqin.
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: Tscarborough on October 03, 2012, 09:47:12 AM
Please check my math on that, BTW.
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: breadstoneovens on October 03, 2012, 09:01:46 PM
They were designed to be used at much lower temperatures for bread- with a pre-heat and then retained heat baking with a closed door. We're taking a tool that was designed for something entirely different and trying to make it work for our needs.  It is only a stroke of luck that, for the sake of fuel efficiency, they made the decision to go with a lower dome.  Their choice of door size has no foundation whatsoever in high oven temperature thermodynamics. The door size decision was most likely based on the need for greater access for loading/unloading bread, as well as the possibility that, at some point, they might have used some kind of shelving system to fit more loaves.  The door size on the FGMs has absolutely nothing to do with efficiency- at least, not within the framework of Neapolitan temperatures. When you get into Neapolitan temps, it's the Neapolitans that have done their homework, not the French. Wood has been a scarce commodity in Naples for quite some time. These ratios (dome height to oven width, door height to dome height) were born out of necessity.  
Hi Scott,
I am little taken back by such strong statements. Have you talked to the owner of FGM to know so much about the design and decision on the dome and door height? Do you have fuel/wood consumption for other ovens to compare with a FGM oven?
I think I need to invite you for a little test cooking with a FGM. Are you up for that?   >:D
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: Chicago Bob on October 03, 2012, 09:15:18 PM
Hi Scott,
I am little taken back by such strong statements. Have you talked to the owner of FGM to know so much about the design and decision on the dome and door height? Do you have fuel/wood consumption for other ovens to compare with a FGM oven?
I think I need to invite you for a little test cooking with a FGM. Are you up for that?   >:D
Antoine,
With all due respect...you are sounding like an attorney asking questions that he doesn't already have the answers to...
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: scott123 on October 03, 2012, 09:25:02 PM
It's alright, Bob, Antoine is allowed to defend the honor of his ovens.

Antoine, were the FGMs originally designed for bread or were they not?

Burning wood creates hot air. Hot air rises and transfers heat to the dome. Cooler air drops and flows out the door.  The lower the door, the greater the heat transfer to the dome. Many oven builders more knowledgeable than myself have found that a 63%ish high door allows for efficient combustion with the least heat loss through the door. This is not just me saying this.

Make the insert.  If it doesn't save wood, I'll bet more than eating my hat  ;D Pick any dollar figure you want. Thousand bucks. That's how confident I am of the thermodynamics.
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: Chicago Bob on October 03, 2012, 09:47:10 PM
Hey hey now...I'd like a little bit of this action.  :-D
Can I put a grand down on Scotty.... 8)
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: Reep on October 03, 2012, 10:30:21 PM
Antoine, were the FGMs originally designed for bread or were they not?

Objection, irrelevant.  (I am a lawyer).
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: Tscarborough on October 03, 2012, 10:33:00 PM
I would beg to differ that most of the heat transferred from the fire to the brick is via hot air flow.  Direct flame/coal contact and IR radiation is my best guess for the majority.
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: Chicago Bob on October 03, 2012, 10:33:45 PM
Objection, irrelevant.  (I am a lawyer).
Overruled! The defendant shall answer the question...  ;D
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: breadstoneovens on October 03, 2012, 10:48:46 PM
Scott,

It is possible that a lower throat could help on the raised door, not arguing there with you. I have designed the metal piece with the FGM owner and we will get to put it to the test.

To go back to what generated my reaction, FGM has different designs for different cooking purpose and so since the beginning. The FGM bread ovens have different shapes as there is no fire in the chamber when cooking. The pizza ovens were designed to cook pizza with a lower dome and more of a round shape. Just want to make sure you have you fact straight before making statements.

I understand your thermodynamics reasoning and I don't claim that the FGM  design is perfect as I am sure there is ways to improve the ovens. However I got to cook with many different ovens' brands and FGM is probably as good as it gets in terms of durability, efficiency and consistent cooking result.
I just think you should try the oven before saying it is wasteful.

Let me ask you that, what brand of WFO do you cook with at home and does it have the 63% dome to door ratio?

Antoine





 
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: Chicago Bob on October 03, 2012, 10:56:11 PM
I wonder when the day will come when an intelligent man is allowed to state his beliefs without being called out to the Romper Rooms show an tell ideal.
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: scott123 on October 03, 2012, 11:05:35 PM
I would beg to differ that most of the heat transferred from the fire to the brick is via hot air flow.  Direct flame/coal contact and IR radiation is my best guess for the majority.

Tom, I'm not saying that 'most of the heat' is transferred by hot air. If you read my previous posts, I'm saying the minority of the heat is transferred by hot air, but it's enough to impact wood consumption and pre-heat times.

Btw, the thought just occurred to me that flame is actually part of the superheated gas equation:

flame (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/flame)

Quote
the glowing gaseous part of a fire

Looking at it that way, superheated gas is doing the heavy lifting in the dome heating equation.  To be fair, though, I have been using the term superheated air (and occasionally gas), so for the purpose of this conversation 'superheated air'=post flame gas, which as I said above, is doing the minority of the work.
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: scott123 on October 03, 2012, 11:38:27 PM
It is possible that a lower throat could help on the raised door, not arguing there with you. I have designed the metal piece with the FGM owner and we will get to put it to the test.

Antoine, that's all I'm asking for.

If the low dome ovens were, indeed, designed for pizza, I stand corrected, but I still contend that they were not designed with high temp Neapolitan pizza in mind and that the dome heights just happened to turn out as being Neapolitan pizza friendly. Case in point (300C is 572F)

http://www.fourgrandmere.com/documents/Image/temp_ang.gif
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: TXCraig1 on October 04, 2012, 12:06:36 AM
Tom, I'm not saying that 'most of the heat' is transferred by hot air. If you read my previous posts, I'm saying the minority of the heat is transferred by hot air, but it's enough to impact wood consumption and pre-heat times.


That's not what it sounds like when you write "IR and conduction are big contributors to floor (and, to a certain extent, wall) heat, but dome heat relies a great deal on convection."

My experience leads me to believe that IR is much more important than convection with respect to heating the dome and walls. This is why I question your assumptions. The additional hot air has so little energy relatively speaking, has such poor heat transfer characteristics, and is exposed to such a small incremental % of the total oven area, I just don't see the 25% reduction in heating time you are claiming.
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: TXCraig1 on October 04, 2012, 12:20:30 AM
I wonder when the day will come when an intelligent man is allowed to state his beliefs without being called out to the Romper Rooms show an tell ideal.

WTF? If someone makes a claim that doesn't make sense to me I should just shut up and put my head down?

I'm all for intelligent people stating their beliefs, but I want to know why they believe what they believe. I've discussed this at length with the owner of a FGM, have you?
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: Tscarborough on October 04, 2012, 12:36:02 AM
Theory is good.  Experience trumps theory.
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: JConk007 on October 04, 2012, 09:14:07 AM
My experience, I have tried countless Oven from barrel ovens to Stefano Ferraro  I Have made 1000's and 1000's ( well approaching 2000 I think?) in my mobile, what I believe is a forno bravo. I made just 75 in the FGM 950B I am Happy FGM got lucky ? with the dome height, and Happy I was lucky enough to not loose too much heat.  1st pic is heat up 2nd full on cooking see the nice light flame going accross the dome?  Flame touching dead space? superheated schmeeted gases. ??? As far Scott's heat up time comments I can also say, oven did not heat up as quickly as my  Mobile I feel because  the brick finish and refractory are different, not that it was going out the door or up the chimney?   I was pushing the heat up because I was a little late (as usual)
Once she got in the zone I will say it again, cooked like a dream and maintained heat nicely and used very little wood ? But I did not have my Abacus to calculate the consumption. We are talking about a home oven here I get free wood  ;)  and the average homeowner  (especially not a member here ) who has money to spend on a WFO will  be very happy with the joy of cooking in a wfo I just don't think  the extra 3 sticks or 30 min +- is on their mind ? I have to say sure has been interesting and great that some people are that into it is very cool !  (or Hot)
Scott,  I  will be going to visit Antione  you would be  welcome to come along and check things out
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: scott123 on October 04, 2012, 01:52:04 PM
Experience... absolutely. And when someone posts their wood usage and pre-heat times with a lower door FGM, I will defer to that experience completely.  Until then, though, this is largely theory.

Theory and history.  I'm well aware that some of Marco's beliefs are not universally accepted and I also believe that Neapolitan oven builders can be wrong. At the same time, though, I strongly believe that we can learn from the Neapolitans and that, without evidence to the contrary, when it comes to oven design, the Neapolitans get the benefit of the doubt. Just because we don't have any Italian oven builders on this forum doesn't mean that their opinions don't carry weight. If their oven has a particular specification, and we can find a relatively easy way to match it, then we definitely should, until it is proven as being inferior.

Between French (or any other nationality) oven builders baking pizza at 600 degrees and Neapolitan oven builders with more than a century of making the exact pizza that we're all striving for, I will ALWAYS defer to the Italians until I see hard evidence to the contrary.

The low doors on all Neapolitan ovens are not there by chance.  They're not an aesthetic decision. They are their for a reason.  Until they are completely proven as unnecessary, I will continue to fight tooth and nail for them.

The Italians aren't always right, but until proven otherwise, I defer to their experience.
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: Tscarborough on October 04, 2012, 02:00:05 PM
Since they all use the same cast door frame, maybe a hundred years ago there was only one company making those doors so they all used it and now it is tradition like so much of the Neapolitan pizza religion.
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: scott123 on October 04, 2012, 02:05:50 PM
Tom, with the scarcity of wood in Naples, you don't think, in the last century, anyone tested a higher door?
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: scott123 on October 04, 2012, 02:19:12 PM
Scott,  I  will be going to visit Antione  you would be  welcome to come along and check things out

John, when Antoine has an insert ready for testing, I would love to join you  ;D
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: Tscarborough on October 04, 2012, 02:22:01 PM
I am just being facetious...
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: scott123 on October 04, 2012, 02:33:52 PM
I am just being facetious...

Oh, okay  :) Your post does ring true in regards to one aspect, though- that the Neapolitans might very well be blindly following tradition. Tradition always has to be questioned. That's a given. But until we have data proving otherwise, it should get the benefit of the doubt.
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: Reep on October 04, 2012, 03:59:02 PM
I might be getting the first prototype.  Does that mean the pizza party is at my house?   :chef:
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: RMWFO on December 17, 2012, 11:12:52 PM
After searching quite a bit, I am down to two specific models that would work for me and would love input from anyone experienced with these or similar models.  This WFO will be part of an outdoor kitchen, where I have lots of space to work with.  I am interested in Neapolitan and California-style pizza and will be cooking for family and small parties at our home.  Pizza will be 90% of the use.  5% for bread making and 5% for other misc experimentation. 

Specifically this is what I'm looking at:

Earthstone 110
43" diameter circular cooking surface
solid build quality
more mass than FGM
higher dome
local builder

FGM FT1350C Lateral
Oval footprint: Wider and shorter than Earthstone
Lower dome
less mass

Price is close enough to be equal.  I know both builders are highly respected. I'm sure I would be happy with either oven, but the nuances between the two require more experience than I have to evaluate.

My main question is does the lower dome and wider/shorter footprint create an advantage?  And what about the lower mass?   

Hi Reep,

The lateral ovens have 2 big advantages:
- if you cook only pizzas you can have 2 fires running on each side of the oven. Thus you don't need to turn the pizzas as much or at all (big efficiency advantage!!). You save time and money
- if you run the fire on one side, you can cook pizzas close to the fire and have something else on the other side, that requires less heat (grill/roast meats, breads,...)
Lateral ovens are getting very popular in France now.

Cheers
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: JConk007 on December 18, 2012, 12:21:55 AM
Seb. Not sure if you could save money, at least on wood if you were burning 2 fires ? I really like the FGM Long version now even more so than the lateral .  It allows much more room for production cooking you can have 3-4 cooking and a few in the front so as they cook they come to front ( need a good stick man for sure)  to keep nice and hot and finish  for those orders of 6 pies to a table, without pulling 2 or 3 out to wait for the others.  I think thats very cool for home use I dont see the need for pumping out 5-6 at a time? but who knows?  I think Reep went with the 1500 Raised  Long ? which is a great all around oven and  I am pretty sure he has more plans than just pizza cant wait to see it hes gonna loveit ? 
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: RMWFO on December 18, 2012, 12:23:57 AM
Since they all use the same cast door frame, maybe a hundred years ago there was only one company making those doors so they all used it and now it is tradition like so much of the Neapolitan pizza religion.
Hi there,

few comment on this great thread:
- yep, experience is key. Antoine and Xavier (FGM owner) will provide a lower door soon so we'll see the results.
- ovens' manufacturers don't provide many door sizes because of economic reasons. The ovens come in few parts and the arch/entrance of the oven is the most delicate part. They can't really afford to build a mold for the arch for each different size of oven.
- for me, the efficiency of the oven has more to do with the quality of the materials and the building process (vibration of the concrete, use of ssteel nidles,...). Size and position of chimney hole is also very important.
- if you lower the door, you may get more smoke in the oven. Not good. Also the fire will get less oxygen and may get less efficient
-the perfect ratio is 62-65% but starting 48" ovens, the ratio should decrease otherwise you get to much air
- Scott, Italians are certainly the pizza masters but French are the cooking masters in the world! :) (sorry, a little bit of French arrogance... :chef:
I think the best pizza is the one you like. Millions of Americans eat junk pizzas and love them. It's just a question of food education and we work hard to food-educate people. Especially in this country where the lobby-processed food-GMO industries control almost everything.  
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: RMWFO on December 18, 2012, 12:35:55 AM
Seb. Not sure if you could save money, at least on wood if you were burning 2 fires ? I really like the FGM Long version now even more so than the lateral .  It allows much more room for production cooking you can have 3-4 cooking and a few in the front so as they cook they come to front ( need a good stick man for sure)  to keep nice and hot and finish  for those orders of 6 pies to a table, without pulling 2 or 3 out to wait for the others.  I think thats very cool for home use I dont see the need for pumping out 5-6 at a time? but who knows?  I think Reep went with the 1500 Raised  Long ? which is a great all around oven and  I am pretty sure he has more plans than just pizza cant wait to see it hes gonna loveit ? 
You are right: in a residential use, you don't save money but in a pizza business you do because you don't turn the pizza as much so the less time (time is money) is necessary to manage the cooking. Wood: it's about the same quantity since you do 2 smaller fires that produce the same amount of heat than one.
I am not a fan of the Long ovens because when you have the fire in the back you loose a lot of heat (escapes from the entrance) but your point makes sense as well.
1500? I am sure he's gonna get new friends soon!  :D
Seb
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: JConk007 on December 18, 2012, 09:55:07 AM
Yes, I agree they are quality ovens and  By the looks of that outdoor Kitchen he already Has alot of friends !! ;D
John
Title: Re: Earthstone 110 or FGM?
Post by: Reep on December 19, 2012, 11:48:04 PM
Yes, I went with the 1500 deep.  I didn't have the width to put in the lateral.  It would have killed my symmetry.  The lateral would have been interesting to experiment with as it gives you more side to side variance while still being able to see what you are cooking.  I think the deep one will provide similar flexibility, but maybe quite as easy to see by the firelight as the lateral.