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Author Topic: Leaving my comfort zone and going to try different recipes.  (Read 2049 times)

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Offline Dangerous Salumi

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Re: Leaving my comfort zone and going to try different recipes.
« Reply #20 on: January 08, 2018, 09:31:01 AM »
3.2 beer was the only kind of beer you could get in convenience stores and grocery stores. You could buy it chilled. Real beer could be only purchased in liquor stores and could not be cold. Strong beer, wine and liquor could not be purchased on Sundays. Though in some counties you could buy booze in restaurant settings or bars. Things have changed. 30 years ago we had liquor by the wink. You had to bring your own booze to the bar and they would make your drinks. It was a political  thing.  Even today you can't buy near beer after 2 am. It's all just nuts.

I used to go to to a nautical themed rock and roll bar called something like "Schooners". People used to get drunk out of their minds and beat the hell out of each other in the place. Chicks too. It was hilarious. I started avoiding the place when I was walking back to my car and a couple people were going medieval swinging at each other with lug wrenchs and assorted other junk you'd find in a bed of a pick up truck.
Have a Dangerous day!


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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Leaving my comfort zone and going to try different recipes.
« Reply #21 on: January 08, 2018, 10:16:35 AM »
Nick,

I don't know if you are aware of it but there is an earlier Lehmann NY style dough formulation at the PMQ Recipe Bank at http://www.pmq.com/Recipe-Bank/New-York-Style-Pizza-Dough. Many moons ago, starting about 2004 and until about 2006, I, too, left my comfort zone when I volunteered to try to adapt Tom's NY style dough formulation to a home setting even though I knew very little about the NY style. I used the PMQ recipe because it was more explicit and, if I recall correctly, the version that you used had not yet been posted on the forum, at least when I started my journey with Tom's recipe. My journey led to the thread at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=576.msg5303#msg5303. Subsequently, I came up with a roadmap for all of my experiments at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=1453.msg13193#msg13193.

With respect to the thickness factor, I used about 0.10-0.105 and I pretty much stuck with that value to be consistent from one experiment to the other. You can read how I came up with that range, and what I later learned from Tom when I queried him on that matter, at Reply 7 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12029.msg112601/topicseen.html#msg112601

Over the years, I have seen many different values for the NY style thickness factor. Most members tend to use values lower than the range I used but on one occasion, while I was at a slice place in NYC, I was given enough information by the pizza maker to calculate the thickness factor. It was 0.09431. More recently, I get the sense that a higher thickness factor may work better in a home setting, especially with the types of ovens that are members have that are not like commercial deck ovens.

I learned a great deal from the Lehmann threads although I would not hold myself out as an expert on the NY style of pizza. But I didn't let that stop me from twisting and turning Tom's recipe into a lot of other things, as you can see if you look at the Lehmann Roadmap.

Peter


Offline sodface

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Re: Leaving my comfort zone and going to try different recipes.
« Reply #22 on: January 08, 2018, 11:54:11 AM »
You have a hell of a big oven!!! Mine is 18" deep by 23" wide. A 20" stone is generous indeed and would make most people happy. But for other types of baking, side by side loaves of bread, baguettes, etc, I still think rectangular is more versatile, and I've had both.
What lind of oven do you have? I'm already jealous I think   :P

I think I was mistaken, now that you've made me think about it  :P, I believe it is 19".  It's a standard GE oven with a glass insert in the door.  The stone touches the back wall of the oven and is about a millimeter from touching the glass in the door.

I know I got the biggest round stone they had without going to a custom size, which by the website is 19".

Yes, 19", here's a post where I talk about it, picture included:
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=43966.msg442571#msg442571
« Last Edit: January 08, 2018, 12:24:24 PM by sodface »
Carl

Offline nick57

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Re: Leaving my comfort zone and going to try different recipes.
« Reply #23 on: January 13, 2018, 07:11:23 PM »
  This is my 3rd and last Tom Lehmann's NY style pizza experiment for a while. I think my next experiment will be Tony Gemignani's NY style including his sauce recipe for it.

  The recipe I used this time was the same as the last experiment except for one step, I did a poolish. The crust turned out very nice, it was quite crispy and had a good chew. The poolish seemed to add a little flavor to the crust. The crust seemed to have a better NY style flop than the last two tries. All three Tom Lehmann NY style experiments resulted in really good crusts. Any one of them makes a great base for a pizza. Hard to say which was my favorite. I would probably go with the poolish because I enjoyed the work flow and it seems to give a little better crust texture and enhances the flavor of the crust.

 

 
« Last Edit: January 13, 2018, 08:45:09 PM by nick57 »

Offline mitchjg

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Re: Leaving my comfort zone and going to try different recipes.
« Reply #24 on: January 13, 2018, 08:22:58 PM »
Nice job!  I think you can be comfortable  ;D
Mitch

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Online Minolta Rokkor

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Re: Leaving my comfort zone and going to try different recipes.
« Reply #25 on: January 13, 2018, 08:37:51 PM »
  This is my 3rd and last Tom Lehmann's NY style pizza experiment for a while. I think my next experiment will be Tony Gemignani's NY style including his sauce recipe for it.

  The recipe I used this time was the same as the last experiment except for one step, I did a poolish. The crust turned out very nice, it was quite crispy and had a good chew. The poolish seemed to add a little flavor to the crust. The crust seemed to have a better NY style flop than the last two tries. All three Tom Lehmann Ny style experiments resulted in really good crusts. Any one of them makes a great base for a pizza. Hard to say which was my favorite. I would probably go with the poolish because I enjoyed the work flow and it seems to give a little better crust texture and enhances the flavor of the crust.

 

 
Looks great.

If only I could manage to wrap my head around how to use and incorporate poolish.

Offline CaptBob

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Re: Leaving my comfort zone and going to try different recipes.
« Reply #26 on: January 13, 2018, 08:53:42 PM »
That looks GREAT Nick!! :chef: :chef:
Bob

Online Minolta Rokkor

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Re: Leaving my comfort zone and going to try different recipes.
« Reply #27 on: January 13, 2018, 08:55:27 PM »
I have to ask. Ok, Nick, how exactly do you use Poolish?

Offline nick57

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Re: Leaving my comfort zone and going to try different recipes.
« Reply #28 on: January 13, 2018, 10:26:27 PM »
 First off let me say this may not be the correct way to make and use a poolish. After tips from Peter and other members which at the time seemed a little heady, this is what I came up with. I've been using this method since July of last year, and it has really improved the flavor and texture of the crust. One of the benefits that I like, is when using a poolish, I only need to do a 24 hour CF instead of of 48.

  I am not going to give a dough recipe, I am just going to use a simple example that you can do using your own dough recipe. I have been doing a 25% poolish. By 25% I mean I am going to use 25% of the total water in the dough recipe to make the poolish. For example: If the recipe calls for 100 grams of water, I set aside 25 grams or 25% of water and 25 grams for the flour. This gives a 100% hydration rate. As for the yeast, I use 1/3 of what is called for in the total recipe. If the recipe calls for.75 grams of IDY, I use .25 grams for the poolish.

  Using my example, I place 25 grams of flour and .25 grams of IDY in my KA mixer bowl. Using a whisk, I mix the yeast and flour together. Then I add the 25 grams of water. I use a plastic spatula to mix everything together till no dry flour is left. I cover the bowl with plastic wrap and set it aside for 24 hours. A lot of poolish recipes call for anywhere between 10 and 18 hours ferment. 24 hours seems to work for me.

  After the 24 hour RT ferment, I add the rest of the ingredients. Since I have used 25% of the water and the same amount of flour by weight plus 1/3 of the yeast to make the poolish, I have to take into account for that when making the finished dough. I subtract the amount of water and flour used in the poolish from the total dough formula. Using the earlier example, the total IDY is .75 grams, but since I used .25 grams for the poolish, I used .50 grams of yeast to make the finished dough. Your numbers will be different for your dough recipe.

  When ready to make the dough, just dump the dry ingredients in the KA mixer bowl which contains the poolish and with the mixer on speed 2 slowly add the water using the mixing paddle to combine everything. If your recipe calls for oil, add that when there is no dry flour left. Once all the dough is taken up, change to the dough hook, and finish mixing the dough. Hope this clarifies things, if not, ask.

 

 

« Last Edit: January 14, 2018, 10:57:37 AM by nick57 »

Online Minolta Rokkor

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Re: Leaving my comfort zone and going to try different recipes.
« Reply #29 on: January 13, 2018, 10:52:38 PM »
That cleared things up a bit. Thanks!

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Offline foreplease

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Re: Leaving my comfort zone and going to try different recipes.
« Reply #30 on: January 14, 2018, 12:08:53 AM »
That cleared things up a bit. Thanks!
That is how I have settled on doing it for now except I use slightly different percentages. Also, I go off total flour rather than water but in the end I’m not sure it matters as long as you can keep it straight. Nick explained it well. Try thinking of it like this:


48 or more hours before you bake weigh out FWSY for a formula you already like into 4 separate container.
From the flour, take 25% and put into a mixing bowl
To that, add an equal amount of water taken from the water container
Take 1/2 the yeast and add to mixing bowl
Leave the salt untouched until 24 hrs before you bake.


Whisk those 3 things together. Next day or 24 hrs before bake dump the remaining ingredients into the mixing bowl with the poolish and finish the dough. CF or RF as you normally do, ball as you normally would. Bake.


In other words, the easiest way for me to get my head around the different HRs of poolish, biga, starter and the final HR for the entire formula was to get everything out as step 1. I came from a frustrating and inconsistent backgroung of trying to incorporate biga - often biga called for in quite different ways - into bread.
Hope this helps.
-Tony
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Offline nick57

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Re: Leaving my comfort zone and going to try different recipes.
« Reply #31 on: January 14, 2018, 11:03:11 AM »
 I have revised my ingredient amounts in my poolish dough. I had stated I use 25% of the water and 25% of the flour to make the poolish. That is wrong. I use 25% of the total water and use the same amount of flour by weight not by percentage. So if the water amount is 25 grams I use 25 grams of flour which is not 25% of the total flour called for in the recipe. Hope that clears up any confusion.

Online Minolta Rokkor

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Re: Leaving my comfort zone and going to try different recipes.
« Reply #32 on: January 16, 2018, 09:02:29 AM »
Have you gotten a bigger stone yet? If not the California pizza stone is the best, bar none.

Offline nick57

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Re: Leaving my comfort zone and going to try different recipes.
« Reply #33 on: January 16, 2018, 12:30:52 PM »
I checked out the California Pizza stone. Looked at the 16" x 16" stone. At Amazon with shipping it's $86.00.  Gonna do some looking around and see if I can find it cheaper.

Offline Jackitup

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Re: Leaving my comfort zone and going to try different recipes.
« Reply #34 on: January 16, 2018, 01:13:34 PM »
You would not be unhappy with a Fibrament. Here's the link to the custom cut size page. Been using one in my home oven for years and I can't conceive of anything that much better to make me change, very satisfied and I'm thinking a little better pricing. Type in your dimensions, allowing an inch or so perimeter for circulation and they will shoot you back a price. Recommend at least 3/4 - 7/8" thick

https://bakingstone.com/request_a_quote/
Jon

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If you don't think you're getting what you should out of life.....maybe you're getting what you deserve       -the Root Beer Lady

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Offline rkrider99

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Re: Leaving my comfort zone and going to try different recipes.
« Reply #35 on: January 16, 2018, 02:39:15 PM »
I'm not sure what the shipping charges would be, but I purchased an 18" X 18" X 3/4" cordierite shelf from Axner Pottery supplies.
It's local to me, so it only cost me about $25 at the time. I see that it's $30 now.

http://www.axner.com/cordierite-shelf-18x18x34square.aspx

Tom

Offline nick57

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Re: Leaving my comfort zone and going to try different recipes.
« Reply #36 on: January 16, 2018, 05:36:51 PM »
Thanks Tom and Jon!

  At Bakingstone.com a round 16" x 3/4" is $59 and the shipping is free. At Axner.com a round 16" x 5/8 is $20. They charge extra for crating and shipping. They both look pretty good, I like the idea of 3/4" a little better. I usually do a hour warm up with my 1/2 stone. Do you think I would need to go to 1.5 hours with the thicker stone?

Offline Jackitup

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Re: Leaving my comfort zone and going to try different recipes.
« Reply #37 on: January 16, 2018, 09:59:32 PM »
Mine is 3/4" thick and 1 hour is fine, I would not go less than 3/4. Recovery time is WAY better with a thicker stone when doing multiple pies. If/when I replace it I would go with 7/8" if I were to change anything and maybe try to squeeze more depth in the mix!
Jon

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If you don't think you're getting what you should out of life.....maybe you're getting what you deserve       -the Root Beer Lady

Offline rkrider99

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Re: Leaving my comfort zone and going to try different recipes.
« Reply #38 on: January 17, 2018, 07:27:08 AM »
As Jon said, I wouldn't go less than 3/4". I have an anemic gas oven, only goes to 500 degrees. I preheat the stone for 2 hours and that allows me to do multiple pies. The stone is retired now, as I've replaced it all with a Blackstone.

Tom

Offline nick57

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Re: Leaving my comfort zone and going to try different recipes.
« Reply #39 on: January 22, 2018, 10:30:29 PM »
  A couple of years ago I borrowed The Pizza Bible from the library. I kind of skimmed through it. Now that I have my own copy, I have read and reread his dough making process. I don't think I am dull, but I am confused by some of what he does. For instance, he uses the same Master Dough for several different thin crust styles. Then there is his version of Imo's St Louis style. For example his Chicago thin has a hydration of 62%, whereas Garvey's and other member's recipes call for an average in the mid 50's. Tom and Peter have stated that you can produce a really crispy crust with higher hydrations. Most of Tony's doughs fall in the range of between 60% to 70% hydration.

 I am going to make Tony's NY style for my next try.  He uses his Master Dough recipe for this. I don't have KASL and am going to use KABF. I should still notice a difference from my last two NY style pies. His hydration level is 65%. That seems high, I think I am right that higher protein flours can absorb more liquid. If so, should I lower the hydration a couple of percents because of using KABF? Another thing I found confusing was his recipe for the Master Dough. At the end of the dough making procedure he says divide the dough in half or thirds depending on the dough weight you are looking for. Wait... The heading was Master Dough With Starter...Makes about 29 ounces (820 grams) dough, enough for one pizza. What the...? Is it either one pie or two maybe 3? 29 ounces seems a little too much for a pie unless he is making something bigger than his 13 inchers. My 14"NY style uses around 15 ounces for a pie with a 0.1 TF. I do like it that he listed all his dough recipes at the end of the book by baker percentages, it makes it easy to use when making different sizes of pies. But he did not include the TF's. So I got the recipe, but if I am looking for a certain crust thickness I am kind of in trouble. Of course being a member of the forum I can just search for the answer. But if I am just following the book and want to make a different size pie, I am in trouble. I can't wait to try his cracker thin dough with starter.

  Don't get me wrong, Tony is a Pizza God. He is a great guy. When I ask him something, he always responds with a good answer. He is a very Lucky guy, but worked hard to get to where he is. He does what he loves and has made a great life for him and his family. A real inspiration.  So if I am all wet be sure to tell me. That is what this forum and my mentors are for. I am a work in progress, I make OK pies and am looking to be better at the craft. I learn something new everyday. Not sure when I will make Tony's version, I am in the process of having everything boxed up on the first floor because of the flood. Really like the girls they sent over. They photographed and logged everything they boxed up. When they come back, they said everything should be in the same place before they came. That will be interesting to witness.

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