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Author Topic: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island  (Read 10639 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
« Reply #20 on: November 27, 2016, 10:39:52 PM »
Because people are fickle and want new experiences.  I like that Staten Island pies are in cos they're classic NY unlike other fads that have come about.  It's time for New York to re-establish what's theirs not pretending to be a cupcake, curd or  detroit pie seller.

Harry,

I agree with you on all counts.  :) I really believe that they're classic NY unlike other fads. 

Norma

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Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
« Reply #21 on: November 27, 2016, 11:31:16 PM »
Another photo of the Fish oven at Joe and Pat's.  Also some more comments on how their pizza tasted and the texture.

http://iwantmorefood.com/2009/08/29/staten-island-pizza-tour-wrap-up/

Norma

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
« Reply #22 on: November 28, 2016, 11:42:22 AM »
Peter,

Any other thoughts or suggestions let me know.

Norma
Norma,

The reason I asked you about Joe & Pat's pizza sizes and pricing is because I saw a Yelp photo (below) where a large pizza (half-and-half) cost $28. And with a few other items, the total check plus tax was $52.30. Not exactly cheap.

With respect to the Fish oven, I recalled reading some time ago that Di Fara's was opening a place in Vegas and would be using a Fish oven. I did a forum search and found this item:

Reply 4 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=12535.msg162646#msg162646.

I also saw mention in one of the articles that you cited that the tomatoes used by Joe & Pat's were California grown San Marzanos. I wonder if they are the ones shown in the photo below.

Peter

Offline invertedisdead

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Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
« Reply #23 on: November 28, 2016, 12:10:27 PM »
I think a dough in the 52-55% range would be a good starting point depending on the flour used. I found some pics of my 52% water + 3% oil KABF dough ball and open skin. I used the Lehmann rolling method to open most of the way and finished with a knuckle stretch.

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Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
« Reply #24 on: November 28, 2016, 12:20:33 PM »
Ryan,

What dough ball weight was that?

Peter

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Offline norma427

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Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
« Reply #25 on: November 28, 2016, 12:33:28 PM »
Norma,

The reason I asked you about Joe & Pat's pizza sizes and pricing is because I saw a Yelp photo (below) where a large pizza (half-and-half) cost $28. And with a few other items, the total check plus tax was $52.30. Not exactly cheap.

With respect to the Fish oven, I recalled reading some time ago that Di Fara's was opening a place in Vegas and would be using a Fish oven. I did a forum search and found this item:

Reply 4 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=12535.msg162646#msg162646.

I also saw mention in one of the articles that you cited that the tomatoes used by Joe & Pat's were California grown San Marzanos. I wonder if they are the ones shown in the photo below.

Peter

Peter,

That isn't cheap, but my two slices and a drink were about $7.28.  I don't know where I put the tab right now.  If I find it I will post it.  I didn't think that was bad at all.

Thanks for the link about the Fish oven at Di Fara's in Vegas.  For some reason they really fascinate me.  :-D I talked to Walter last night and he told me he had used a Fish oven and saw different ones in operation years ago.  I told Walter to look at the Fish oven at Joe and Pat's and he thinks that there is a regular deck, on the metal in that Fish oven but couldn't be sure. 

I don't think the tomatoes used by Joe and Pat's were the ones you posted a photo of.  I was kinda leaning to an article that said they use a San Marzano strain grown in California.  That sound like it could be the Alta Cucina.  What do you think?

As for the cubed cheese I think they might use Grande because of what is on the lower right corner of the menu.

http://www.pier76si.com/file/Pier76MN.pdf 

And maybe why I didn't think it was just Grande in this article.

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/11/06/dining/pizza-2002-the-state-of-the-slice.html 

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
« Reply #26 on: November 28, 2016, 12:36:31 PM »
I think a dough in the 52-55% range would be a good starting point depending on the flour used. I found some pics of my 52% water + 3% oil KABF dough ball and open skin. I used the Lehmann rolling method to open most of the way and finished with a knuckle stretch.

Ryan,

I also would like to know you whole formula if you don't mind.  That looks great!  ;D

Norma

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Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
« Reply #27 on: November 28, 2016, 01:28:49 PM »
Peter,

I don't think the tomatoes used by Joe and Pat's were the ones you posted a photo of.  I was kinda leaning to an article that said they use a San Marzano strain grown in California.  That sound like it could be the Alta Cucina.  What do you think?

As for the cubed cheese I think they might use Grande because of what is on the lower right corner of the menu.

http://www.pier76si.com/file/Pier76MN.pdf 

And maybe why I didn't think it was just Grande in this article.

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/11/06/dining/pizza-2002-the-state-of-the-slice.html 

Norma
Norma,

When I looked at the menu you referenced, I noticed that it was for the Pier 76 Restaurant, and the only place I saw the Grande name was at the bottom of the top half of the menu. I did see, however, a statement at the top right of the menu that said Pier 76 offers the same pies as the legendary Joe & Pat's. I'm not quite sure what that means.

As for the Stanislaus Alta Cucina tomatoes, they are not San Marzanos. The Alta Cucinas are Stanislaus' answer to the San Marzanos, as discussed at:

http://www.stanislausfoodproducts.com/products/real-italian-products/from-scratch-products#Alta.

The photo I showed in my last post is the canned tomatoes sold by Simpson Imports. The San Marzano name is all over the label, along with "POMIDORI PELATI" to give the product an Italian sounding name, but there is small print on the label that reads GROWN DOMESTICALLY IN THE U.S.A (in very small caps). The new photo below better shows that wording. My recollection is that the tomatoes are grown in California. I believe that there are some people who question whether the Simpson tomatoes are even San Marzano tomatoes.

Peter

Offline invertedisdead

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Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
« Reply #28 on: November 28, 2016, 01:56:41 PM »
Ryan,

What dough ball weight was that?

Peter

485g @ 17"
I've been experimenting mostly between 16 and 18 oz for a 17" pie.

Ryan

Ryan,

I also would like to know you whole formula if you don't mind.  That looks great!  ;D

Norma

For sure Norma, here it is

Flour (100%) 
Water (52%)
IDY (.5%) 
Salt (2%)
Oil (3%)
LDMP (.5%)

You can see the crispy crackly "rim" that is kind of similar to their pie, of course I did a party cut. Would be interesting to see what it looked like in slices. With Peter's TF recommendation it might get you there.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2016, 02:13:48 PM by invertedisdead »

Offline waltertore

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Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
« Reply #29 on: November 28, 2016, 04:11:58 PM »
Peter,

That isn't cheap, but my two slices and a drink were about $7.28.  I don't know where I put the tab right now.  If I find it I will post it.  I didn't think that was bad at all.

Thanks for the link about the Fish oven at Di Fara's in Vegas.  For some reason they really fascinate me.  :-D I talked to Walter last night and he told me he had used a Fish oven and saw different ones in operation years ago.  I told Walter to look at the Fish oven at Joe and Pat's and he thinks that there is a regular deck, on the metal in that Fish oven but couldn't be sure. 

I don't think the tomatoes used by Joe and Pat's were the ones you posted a photo of.  I was kinda leaning to an article that said they use a San Marzano strain grown in California.  That sound like it could be the Alta Cucina.  What do you think?

As for the cubed cheese I think they might use Grande because of what is on the lower right corner of the menu.

http://www.pier76si.com/file/Pier76MN.pdf 

And maybe why I didn't think it was just Grande in this article.

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/11/06/dining/pizza-2002-the-state-of-the-slice.html 

Norma

Norma:  I am sure you have some old bakeries in your neck of the woods.  Most bakeries ovens are hidden by a wall from the customer unlike pizzerias and I bet there are some old ovens in those places.  Bakeries are less secretive than pizzerias and probably one will show you an old Fish or Marshall revolving oven.  Larry  (thezaman) uses one in his shop in OH if I remember correct.  These are the type ovens I saw in many bakeries.  A bakery in Newark OH that was run by the same family for near 100 years had 2 of these ovens.  They were selling everything and I dreamed of getting one but they are a massive undertaking to remove and make sure they work right.  Most places today use the ones you saw in SI.  Walter
« Last Edit: November 28, 2016, 05:37:56 PM by waltertore »
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Offline waltertore

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Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
« Reply #30 on: November 28, 2016, 05:58:26 PM »
The bagel shop in our town used a revolving oven set up like this and I use to watch them make the bagels often.  I too am fascinated with the old revolving ovens.  Walter


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Offline norma427

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Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
« Reply #31 on: November 28, 2016, 07:20:00 PM »
Norma,

When I looked at the menu you referenced, I noticed that it was for the Pier 76 Restaurant, and the only place I saw the Grande name was at the bottom of the top half of the menu. I did see, however, a statement at the top right of the menu that said Pier 76 offers the same pies as the legendary Joe & Pat's. I'm not quite sure what that means.

As for the Stanislaus Alta Cucina tomatoes, they are not San Marzanos. The Alta Cucinas are Stanislaus' answer to the San Marzanos, as discussed at:

http://www.stanislausfoodproducts.com/products/real-italian-products/from-scratch-products#Alta.

The photo I showed in my last post is the canned tomatoes sold by Simpson Imports. The San Marzano name is all over the label, along with "POMIDORI PELATI" to give the product an Italian sounding name, but there is small print on the label that reads GROWN DOMESTICALLY IN THE U.S.A (in very small caps). The new photo below better shows that wording. My recollection is that the tomatoes are grown in California. I believe that there are some people who question whether the Simpson tomatoes are even San Marzano tomatoes.

Peter

Peter,

I am not sure if Grande cheese is used at Joe and Pat's either, but did see another article that said they use Grande cheese, with another hard cheese.  I can't find that article now. 

I know Stanislaus Alta Cuncina tomatoes are not really San Marzanos. 

I see those San Marzanos tomatoes in local supermarkets sometimes.  If I recall right I didn't really like them.

Norma


Offline norma427

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Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
« Reply #32 on: November 28, 2016, 07:22:53 PM »
Norma:  I am sure you have some old bakeries in your neck of the woods.  Most bakeries ovens are hidden by a wall from the customer unlike pizzerias and I bet there are some old ovens in those places.  Bakeries are less secretive than pizzerias and probably one will show you an old Fish or Marshall revolving oven.  Larry  (thezaman) uses one in his shop in OH if I remember correct.  These are the type ovens I saw in many bakeries.  A bakery in Newark OH that was run by the same family for near 100 years had 2 of these ovens.  They were selling everything and I dreamed of getting one but they are a massive undertaking to remove and make sure they work right.  Most places today use the ones you saw in SI.  Walter

Walter,

There is probably old bakeries in our area but I sure don't know where they are.  Interesting that Larry uses one of those revolving ovens.

Wish you could have gotten one of those ovens.

The bagel shop in our town used a revolving oven set up like this and I use to watch them make the bagels often.  I too am fascinated with the old revolving ovens.  Walter


That is a great video!  I love to watch how they make the bagels and the revolving oven.  Thanks for posting!

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
« Reply #33 on: November 28, 2016, 07:25:59 PM »

For sure Norma, here it is

Flour (100%) 
Water (52%)
IDY (.5%) 
Salt (2%)
Oil (3%)
LDMP (.5%)

You can see the crispy crackly "rim" that is kind of similar to their pie, of course I did a party cut. Would be interesting to see what it looked like in slices. With Peter's TF recommendation it might get you there.

Thank so much for your formulation.  I see how crispy the rim is.  I might try your formulation.  I tried one today because I hadn't seen this post before I went to market.  I used a little higher hydration, but the same amount of oil.

Norma

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Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
« Reply #34 on: November 28, 2016, 07:28:45 PM »
I had wondered if the Hobart would mix a smaller batch of dough with a lower hydration.  At least the Hobart mixed the dough well.  I think this was the smallest batch of dough that was mixed in the Hobart.

Norma

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Offline HarryHaller73

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Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
« Reply #35 on: November 28, 2016, 11:12:06 PM »
Norma,

So excited you finally had the chance to try Joe & Pats. It is one of my favorites (along with Rubirosa) and I have a thread dedicated to their pies in NY style. Many people say NY style is the evolution of Neapolitan; the moment I tried these pies I thought they were the evolution of Roman style brought to the states. Thin, crispy, tender, sauced to the edge...one of my all time favorites. I have a lot of details and research from my visits at Rubirosa and how long they bake for in the Fish ovens. I'm trying to modify these pies for wood fired as I think the fish bakes them evenly but dries them out a bit, but boy are these amazing pizzas. The mozzarella (low moisture on the classic pies) are cubed rather than diced. Sauce in unadulterated and it's just so good for how simple the pies are. The vodka pie at Rubi is just as good but uses fresh mozzarella.

I have my own recipe for this style of pizza that's come pretty close but it's really the unsung hero of NY style. It's so different from anything else out there and I think it's a crowd pleaser. It's somewhere between NY style and coal oven and truly a unique style of pizza that deserves more attention!

Was wondering if you could share your Emmy Squared recipe here on the forum. 

Offline hotsawce

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Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
« Reply #36 on: November 28, 2016, 11:16:52 PM »
Harry,

I can't share the exact recipe but I can tell you how to get close, and what my biggest "secret" is. High hydration, very well proofed dough (it should feel and look like it's full of air,) and toppings in balance.

Anyway, the other dough balls look pretty close to the Rubirosa dough ball I got my hands on. The one I tried was very proofed.

Was wondering if you could share your Emmy Squared recipe here on the forum.

Offline HarryHaller73

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Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
« Reply #37 on: November 28, 2016, 11:21:53 PM »
Harry,

I can't share the exact recipe but I can tell you how to get close, and what my biggest "secret" is. High hydration, very well proofed dough (it should feel and look like it's full of air,) and toppings in balance.

Anyway, the other dough balls look pretty close to the Rubirosa dough ball I got my hands on. The one I tried was very proofed.

Well, the biggest "secret" to Joe and Pats is getting angry and hitting the dough like you mean it.


Offline HarryHaller73

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Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
« Reply #38 on: November 29, 2016, 07:36:54 PM »
Joe & Pat's homage.

« Last Edit: November 29, 2016, 08:31:22 PM by HarryHaller73 »

Offline invertedisdead

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Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
« Reply #39 on: November 29, 2016, 07:46:18 PM »
Did you hand stretch or roll Harry? Nice thin pie! What TF did you calculate?

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