Pizza Making Forum

Pizza Making => General Pizza Making => Topic started by: jeff v on January 04, 2013, 11:10:08 AM

Title: Making a BF crust more tender?
Post by: jeff v on January 04, 2013, 11:10:08 AM
Hi All,

I'm using KABF in my home oven, baking thinner crust pizzas at 550. Does anyone have any tips on how to make the crust a bit more tender?  The recipe I've been using has a 12 hr poolish and a 18 hour bulk ferment in the fridge followed by 4-6 on the counter before balling. The dough is 70% hydration.

KABF happens to be what I have but I'd use another bread flour
I'd like to stay away from adding oil
I've seen baguette recipes where a blend w AP is used
The flour is malted-would adding any more be helpful?

I know I may be asking too much given my oven temps. I bet if I baked these in the 2stone at 650 it would be a different story. Thanks for any input.
Title: Re: Making a BF crust more tender?
Post by: mkevenson on January 04, 2013, 12:25:12 PM
Jeff, my initial thought would be to mix some caputo 00 pizzeria flour with the KABF. I have gone 50/50 with nice results.

Mark
Title: Re: Making a BF crust more tender?
Post by: jeff v on January 04, 2013, 01:54:14 PM
Jeff, my initial thought would be to mix some caputo 00 pizzeria flour with the KABF. I have gone 50/50 with nice results.
Mark

Thanks for the suggestion Mark. The taste of Caputo in a home oven is not one I enjoy, so I'm going to try 50/50 w AP.
Title: Re: Making a BF crust more tender?
Post by: Chicago Bob on January 04, 2013, 02:57:07 PM
The recipe I've been using has a 12 hr poolish and a 18 hour bulk ferment in the fridge followed by 4-6 on the counter before balling. The dough is 70% hydration.



Jeff,
What are you doing with it once the dough is balled?
Title: Re: Making a BF crust more tender?
Post by: TXCraig1 on January 04, 2013, 03:27:05 PM
Why not 100% KAAP?
Title: Re: Making a BF crust more tender?
Post by: jeff v on January 04, 2013, 04:23:32 PM
Jeff,
What are you doing with it once the dough is balled?

Let it rest for an hour or so...then make pizza.  :)
Title: Re: Making a BF crust more tender?
Post by: jeff v on January 04, 2013, 04:29:03 PM
Why not 100% KAAP?

You know, of all the flours and pizzas I've tried I don't remember ever doing 100% AP. Have you? I like the pull and chew of BF but it gets a bit tough.

I went to Great Lake Pizza again which is how this started. That crust is amazing. It reminds of the best of a baguette and a pizza at the same time.
Title: Re: Making a BF crust more tender?
Post by: Mmmph on January 04, 2013, 04:37:51 PM
I've used KAAP for NP, Sicilian, NY, California...Hey, it's all-purpose!
Just work it longer for more gluten development.
Title: Re: Making a BF crust more tender?
Post by: TXCraig1 on January 04, 2013, 05:12:18 PM
You know, of all the flours and pizzas I've tried I don't remember ever doing 100% AP. Have you?

KAAP is the only flour I used until I got the WFO and went to Caputo.
Title: Re: Making a BF crust more tender?
Post by: jeff v on January 04, 2013, 05:50:20 PM
KAAP is the only flour I used until I got the WFO and went to Caputo.

I have a poolish of 50/50  going right now, but I'll try that next week.
Title: Re: Making a BF crust more tender?
Post by: mvd on January 04, 2013, 06:53:20 PM
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "tender." Do you mean you want it less crispy? You say that you don't want to add oil, so aside from trying a different flour, my only suggestion would be reduce the fermentation time (maybe omit the poolish?). But that might affect the flavor too much.
Title: Re: Making a BF crust more tender?
Post by: jeff v on January 04, 2013, 07:44:28 PM
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "tender." Do you mean you want it less crispy? You say that you don't want to add oil, so aside from trying a different flour, my only suggestion would be reduce the fermentation time (maybe omit the poolish?). But that might affect the flavor too much.

Maybe less chewy or tough is a better way to say it.
Title: Re: Making a BF crust more tender?
Post by: jeff v on January 04, 2013, 07:45:03 PM
Anyone have experience adding malt powder to an already malted flour?
Title: Re: Making a BF crust more tender?
Post by: Chicago Bob on January 04, 2013, 07:53:34 PM
Maybe less chewy or tough is a better way to say it.

Have you ever tried a higher protein flour than BF?
Title: Re: Making a BF crust more tender?
Post by: norma427 on January 04, 2013, 10:09:47 PM
Anyone have experience adding malt powder to an already malted flour?

Jeff,

I did try dry malt in a couple of formulations for pizza dough.  If you are interested you can see what Tom Lehmann said at Reply 20 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18281.msg177389.html#msg177389 and then what I posted in the next post after Tom.

I also used malt in the Fairmont Bagel Pizza.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12463.msg118694.html#msg118694

I know I used malt in other pizza doughs, but canít recall right now what they were or even if I used malted flours with malt powder.

Norma
Title: Re: Making a BF crust more tender?
Post by: jeff v on January 04, 2013, 10:31:44 PM
Have you ever tried a higher protein flour than BF?

I think higher protein would be taking me the wrong way Bob.
Title: Re: Making a BF crust more tender?
Post by: jeff v on January 04, 2013, 10:34:51 PM
Jeff,

I did try dry malt in a couple of formulations for pizza dough.  If you are interested you can see what Tom Lehmann said at Reply 20 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18281.msg177389.html#msg177389 and then what I posted in the next post after Tom.

I also used malt in the Fairmont Bagel Pizza.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12463.msg118694.html#msg118694

I know I used malt in other pizza doughs, but canít recall right now what they were or even if I used malted flours with malt powder.

Norma

Thanks Norma. Based on Toms response it looks like its not a good idea to add any kind of malt to an already malted flour.
Title: Re: Making a BF crust more tender?
Post by: Pete-zza on January 05, 2013, 08:40:01 AM
Jeff,

As others have noted, to get a more tender, less chewy crust, the most frequently recommended practice is to use a lower protein flour. It doesn't have to be all-purpose flour but the flour should have a lower protein content than bread flour in your case. You can use the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator to test out different flour blends to get a protein content somewhere between bread flour and all-purpose flour.

Sugar is also often used to tenderize a crust, along with oil (which you have ruled out for now). Sugar is a hygroscopic substance and helps retain moisture in the dough during baking. However, you would have to use a fair amount of sugar to have the desired crust softening effect. Honey is even more hygroscopic than sugar and will also add a bit more moisture to the dough (since honey is about 17 percent water). You already have a high hydration value so you shouldn't need to increase the current value. Adding a bit more yeast as part of the final mix might give you a greater rise in the finished crust and create more of a sensation of softness and tenderness.

Peter
Title: Re: Making a BF crust more tender?
Post by: jeff v on January 05, 2013, 03:02:01 PM
I hadn't used or seen that tool. Thanks Peter.

I'm going to use a couple blends then probably add some honey if I'm still not happy. I will also probably dial the hydration back in future batches given the AP flour.
Title: Re: Making a BF crust more tender?
Post by: norma427 on January 05, 2013, 05:29:49 PM

I hadn't used or seen that tool.
 

Jeff,

I tried to access the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at http://foodsim.toastguard.com/ to show you it, but my computer wonít let me access it.  I donít know if anyone else is having problems accessing Novemberís tool or not.

Norma
Title: Re: Making a BF crust more tender?
Post by: mvd on January 05, 2013, 06:32:42 PM
Jeff,

Quote
Maybe less chewy or tough is a better way to say it.

Thanks, that clarifies it a lot for me. In that case, all the suggestions given today sound good to me.

Quote
I'm going to use a couple blends then probably add some honey if I'm still not happy.

A word of caution on using honey: It adds a very distinctive sweet flavor to the crust. Maybe you'll like it, but when I did this a few weeks ago, I thought it was a little too much. Then again, if you use a small enough amount, it's not as noticeable.
Title: Re: Making a BF crust more tender?
Post by: Pete-zza on January 05, 2013, 06:38:13 PM
Jeff,

I tried to access the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at http://foodsim.toastguard.com/ to show you it, but my computer wonít let me access it.  I donít know if anyone else is having problems accessing Novemberís tool or not.

Norma

Norma,

I was able to get the content of the tool using my iPad but could not access the tool from my desktop computer. As a result, I sent a PM to November.

Peter
Title: Re: Making a BF crust more tender?
Post by: jeff v on January 05, 2013, 07:41:40 PM
Norma,

I was able to get the content of the tool using my iPad but could not access the tool from my desktop computer. As a result, I sent a PM to November.

Peter

I noticed the same.
Title: Re: Making a BF crust more tender?
Post by: norma427 on January 05, 2013, 08:08:23 PM
I found out when trying to access November's tool again, if I scrolled down I could see it and use it.

Norma
Title: Re: Making a BF crust more tender?
Post by: Jackie Tran on January 06, 2013, 08:59:52 PM
Jeff I know that you already said you didn't want to add oil to the dough but didn't mention why.  If you haven't tried, then it's definitely worth a shot.  At 1-2% oil (or preferably shortening), 99% of people will not be able to detect it's taste or mouthfeel.  What you will notice is a measurable difference in crumb tenderness.  Not only that but the crust will remain more tender for a longer period of time compared to an oilless crust.  I would recommend a 1-2% melted shortening before going with AP flour.   Just my 2% shortening cents.   ;D
Title: Re: Making a BF crust more tender?
Post by: jeff v on January 06, 2013, 09:33:29 PM
Jeff I know that you already said you didn't want to add oil to the dough but didn't mention why.  If you haven't tried, then it's definitely worth a shot.  At 1-2% oil (or preferably shortening), 99% of people will not be able to detect it's taste or mouthfeel.  What you will notice is a measurable difference in crumb tenderness.  Not only that but the crust will remain more tender for a longer period of time compared to an oilless crust.  I would recommend a 1-2% melted shortening before going with AP flour.   Just my 2% shortening cents.   ;D

Hi Chau,

Just because I know that works I guess.:P I was interested in flour blends and malt powder. The 50/50 blend of AP BF worked pretty well tonight but still toughened up as it cooled.

I've never used melted shortening in a dough. What stage of the mix would you add it in?
Title: Re: Making a BF crust more tender?
Post by: Jackie Tran on January 06, 2013, 11:33:23 PM
Taking the raod less travelled...I can definitely respect that.  :-D  In my experiments with flours with varying amounts of protein, you'll definitely get a more tender crumb with a lower protein flour, but you will also typically get a denser and less airy crumb.  If all things being equal, you get a softer texture but the crumb matrix tends to be tighter and the overall crumb less airy. 

You (theorectically) should be able to make a tender crumb using almost any flour or blend of flours if you build the gluten properly.  But that is much easier said than done for sure.  How are you mixing your dough?  By hand or mixer?

As far as adding in melted shortening, I think most bakers add oil and fats towards the end of the mixing protocol.  For my specific methods which entails using a moderate amount of mixing with a mixer initially and finishing the dough with hand folds separated by intermittent rest periods, I have found that it makes very little difference if any when shortening is added upfront or towards the end while the dough is in the mixer. 

As far as oil vs shortening.  I did about 4 seperate side by side comparisons between the 2 and the shortening dough always produce a noticeably superior crust and crumb.  For my taste, the shortening in small amounts 2-3%, produces a slightly drier crust than oil.  It's just as tender, but you wouldn't even notice it's there unless I told you.

It took me several years of endless experiments (3-4/wk every week) to learn how to make a tender crust and crumb without use of oil or shortening.  It was a huge challenge for me at the time and I bought into the purist mentality of only flour, water, salt, and yeast for dough.  These days, I find that a bit silly.  For me, adding a small amount of shortening is like using the simple button.  It just makes life easier.   

Chau
Title: Re: Making a BF crust more tender?
Post by: jeff v on January 07, 2013, 12:13:31 AM
Taking the raod less travelled...I can definitely respect that.  :-D  In my experiments with flours with varying amounts of protein, you'll definitely get a more tender crumb with a lower protein flour, but you will also typically get a denser and less airy crumb.  If all things being equal, you get a softer texture but the crumb matrix tends to be tighter and the overall crumb less airy. 

You (theorectically) should be able to make a tender crumb using almost any flour or blend of flours if you build the gluten properly.  But that is much easier said than done for sure.  How are you mixing your dough?  By hand or mixer?

As far as adding in melted shortening, I think most bakers add oil and fats towards the end of the mixing protocol.  For my specific methods which entails using a moderate amount of mixing with a mixer initially and finishing the dough with hand folds separated by intermittent rest periods, I have found that it makes very little difference if any when shortening is added upfront or towards the end while the dough is in the mixer. 

As far as oil vs shortening.  I did about 4 seperate side by side comparisons between the 2 and the shortening dough always produce a noticeably superior crust and crumb.  For my taste, the shortening in small amounts 2-3%, produces a slightly drier crust than oil.  It's just as tender, but you wouldn't even notice it's there unless I told you.

It took me several years of endless experiments (3-4/wk every week) to learn how to make a tender crust and crumb without use of oil or shortening.  It was a huge challenge for me at the time and I bought into the purist mentality of only flour, water, salt, and yeast for dough.  These days, I find that a bit silly.  For me, adding a small amount of shortening is like using the simple button.  It just makes life easier.   

Chau

Thanks Chau. Did you happen to post this years of experiments? ;D

I'm using a KA600 to mix this dough. 4 min on lowest speed, 5 min rest, then 5 min on lowest speed. I add the salt at the beginning of the second mix, and am using a 12hr poolish w 30% of the formula water. The dough then spends 18-24 hrs bulk in the fridge.

I'm getting the open airy crumb I'm looking for, just not the texture I'd hoped.
Title: Re: Making a BF crust more tender?
Post by: Jackie Tran on January 07, 2013, 01:42:31 AM
Jeff, I posted as much as I could for as long as I could.  :-D  From your methods it makes sense that you are getting the open and airy crumb but not the desired texture.  I would say that the gluten is likely overdeveloped.  You have seemingly a lot of mixing going on plus a long cold bulk ferment that develops even more gluten.  How much rise or increase in volume are you getting during the bulk before you ball the dough? 

If you are so inclined, you may try this.  Skip the poolish and just go with a straight mix with the salt and yeast in the water.  Mix for 4-5m on the lowest setting.   Take the dough out and do some stretch and folds to ball up the dough.  Then rest 10-15m or so and stretch and fold again to ball up the dough mass.  No need to ball it up too tight.   Then bulk ferment as usually and form balls.  Again, don't go crazy when balling...as in no need to make a really tight ball.  If you keep everything the same, you should notice a difference in the end crumb texture.   

Chau
Title: Re: Making a BF crust more tender?
Post by: jeff v on January 07, 2013, 01:58:13 AM
I was being somewhat sarcastic there-I've read lots of your posts.

Interesting thoughts re over developing the gluten. I've never measured the amount of rise, but I would say 1.5 times though I could be off.

I'm going to give your suggestion a try and will report back. Probably not til mid week or so.

Thanks,
Jeff
Title: Re: Making a BF crust more tender?
Post by: Jackie Tran on January 07, 2013, 08:23:49 AM
Jeff, I know you were being sarcastic.  It was funny. :P  I hope the suggestions help in getting you a more tender crust.  Good luck.

Chau
Title: Re: Making a BF crust more tender?
Post by: MrPibbs on January 09, 2013, 11:25:53 AM
Jeff,

I tried to access the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at http://foodsim.toastguard.com/ to show you it, but my computer wonít let me access it.  I donít know if anyone else is having problems accessing Novemberís tool or not.

Norma

Yeah there are a bunch of programming language errors that show up and prevent the website tool from working.
Title: Re: Making a BF crust more tender?
Post by: fazzari on January 09, 2013, 02:46:39 PM
Jeff
Looking at your work flow and your comments and I would have to agree with Chau regarding your mixing times.  But having said that, don't consider changing ingredients until you consider what different handling of your dough will do.  For instance, after taking your dough from the fridge, why not experiment with balling right away, and letting your dough sit a couple hours prior to bake (instead of the 4 to 6 hour room temp ferment).  And then you can experiment with various times of tempering your dough balls.....I think you will find that just changing this part of your procedure will change the texture of your pizza.

John
Title: Re: Making a BF crust more tender?
Post by: jeff v on January 09, 2013, 04:23:24 PM
Thanks John. I wanted to get going in the right direction as far as blends go. I'll slow down and change less variables with the shorter mix and 50/50 blend.
Title: Re: Making a BF crust more tender?
Post by: jeff v on January 11, 2013, 08:04:23 PM
So, what was supposed to be 24 hrs in the fridge turned into 48. The dough may have been a little over proofed.

I followed Chau's recommendations up thread and after the 48 hrs in the fridge I let it rest 2 hrs on the counter before being scaled and balled. Then gave in another 2.5 hrs room temp before baking. The dough was noticeably more tender.

Not sure how valid this was given the extra 24hrs I the fridge but that's what happened.
Title: Re: Making a BF crust more tender?
Post by: Jackie Tran on January 11, 2013, 08:49:22 PM
Jeff depending on your amount of yeast and fridge temp, the extra 24hrs of cold fermentation could be inconsequential.  For example, if the yeast level is relatively low like 0.3% and the dough was put into the fridge fairly soon after mixing and folding and the fridge temp is no higher than 40f, then an extra 24hrs would not make much of a difference if any.  Especially since you are balling so late and with the intention of not balling the dough too tightly, you would just make the necessary adjustments in how much strength to add to the dough at that time.  Now if it were an extra 4-5 days then you would notice more drastic changes in dough characteristics and final texture compared to balling it after a 24h cold bulk.

Jeff this latest batch was without oil correct?  How much did the dough rise during the bulk phase?  Doubled (100%) or more? Was the crumb more tender initially and after the cool down as well? Did you like the end result?

Chau
Title: Re: Making a BF crust more tender?
Post by: jeff v on January 11, 2013, 09:33:34 PM
My formula was
50/50 KAAP/KABF 100%
70% water
.25 idy
3 salt

I don't think the dough quite doubled during the bulk ferment. It was noticeably more tender just out of the oven and less after cooling down (still more tender than previous).
Title: Re: Making a BF crust more tender?
Post by: jeff v on January 25, 2013, 09:42:45 PM
Family stuff has kept me away from this for the past couple weeks. Getting back this past week I've been able to get a noticeably more tender crust with minimal kneading and long bulk ferments. Normally I would try and get a really tight skin when forming the balls but have had better success when balling more gentle.

This batch tonight was 100% KABF and came out much better than earlier attempts. One thing that made the biggest difference...heat. Surprise I know. I did 2 pizzas in my home oven at 550 on a stone and one in my 2stone at 650. The 2stone pizza was far more tender even after cooling.

I'm sure ill mess with this some more, because I believe a batch that was cold fermented was more tender than a room temp attempt. I'd like to retest that though. It was really interesting seeing how much different kneading, fermenting and even balling affected the outcomes of this dough.