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Author Topic: All Trumps High Gluten Flour-Why I won't Buy It Again  (Read 1257 times)

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Offline drmatt357

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All Trumps High Gluten Flour-Why I won't Buy It Again
« on: December 23, 2016, 01:02:09 AM »
Been making pizza for 10 years or so. For most of the time I used the Bouncer HGF. A few years ago, I started using a baking steel with great results. A year ago, Restaurant Depot started carrying Flour Power HGF. I bought a 50lb bag and liked it.

That bag ran out a month ago so I saw RD is now carrying All Trumps HGF. Had to buy a bag. Didn't think much of it as I used it. I did start to notice that my pies were not coming out properly. I thought it was the water, the plate, the oven...  I FINALLY came to the realization it was the flour.

First, the texture was almost like a raw dough. I make a thin crust NY style and this not only didn't have much crunch, the edges felt like raw dough when chewing. It wasn't. Just seemed that way. Also, it didn't tolerate the heat from the plate. I run it at 525-550 and the bottom would always come out black. My son also said that the edges don't have the "spider web" look.

I'm very meticulous with my ingredients and procedures to create 100% reproducibility. So over the weekend, I went to RD and picked up a bag of Bouncer (they don't have the Flour Power in Tucson anymore).  The result of the pizza tonight was AMAZING!

It feels good to be back and to know I'm not losing my Mo Jo!
« Last Edit: December 23, 2016, 01:59:43 AM by drmatt357 »

Offline norcoscia

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Re: All Trumps High Gluten Flour-Why I won't Buy It Again
« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2016, 07:43:47 AM »
Great looking pie - sorry to hear the AT bag you purchased is not working out for you - maybe you just got a bad bag?

Wish my local RD had Bouncer - I would like to try it after seeing that pie you turned out with it. BTW, happy holidays to you drmatt357, glad to see a post from you. Maybe I have just been missing them but I don't think I have seen a post from you in a while.

Take care, and again - fantastic looking pizza  :drool: :drool: :drool:
Norm

Offline HarryHaller73

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Re: All Trumps High Gluten Flour-Why I won't Buy It Again
« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2016, 09:49:49 AM »
Not saying you do, but All Trumps bromated shouldn't be mixed too long or aggressively or too hot as gluten develops very quickly, it's protein % is juiced up, more than nearly every high gluten flour on market.  You'd get away with overmixing  other lower protein flours that label as hi gluten and there is no real standard for what hi gluten really is.   More importantly, this can also over activate the potassium bromate (an oxidizing agent and a dough improver) which basically leads to more oven spring in your pizza. 

Getting it to work within your expectations is a function of re formulation and adjustments but if what you're doing now with another flour is fine, probably not worth the effort. 
« Last Edit: December 23, 2016, 10:05:29 AM by HarryHaller73 »

Offline drmatt357

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All Trumps High Gluten Flour-Why I won't Buy It Again
« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2016, 09:17:00 PM »
Not saying you do, but All Trumps bromated shouldn't be mixed too long or aggressively or too hot as gluten develops very quickly, it's protein % is juiced up, more than nearly every high gluten flour on market.  You'd get away with overmixing  other lower protein flours that label as hi gluten and there is no real standard for what hi gluten really is.   More importantly, this can also over activate the potassium bromate (an oxidizing agent and a dough improver) which basically leads to more oven spring in your pizza. 

Getting it to work within your expectations is a function of re formulation and adjustments but if what you're doing now with another flour is fine, probably not worth the effort.

Thanks for the input Harry. I would only mix it in my Kitchen Aid on low for 5 minutes. Maybe if I messed around with it for another 2 months, I would have figured it out (I only make pizzas on Sunday). But all things being equal, the Bouncer and Flour Power were great and the AT was el stinko!

And in AZ, we can't get the bromated kind.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2016, 09:32:05 PM by drmatt357 »

Offline drmatt357

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Re: All Trumps High Gluten Flour-Why I won't Buy It Again
« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2016, 09:36:33 PM »
Great looking pie - sorry to hear the AT bag you purchased is not working out for you - maybe you just got a bad bag?

Wish my local RD had Bouncer - I would like to try it after seeing that pie you turned out with it. BTW, happy holidays to you drmatt357, glad to see a post from you. Maybe I have just been missing them but I don't think I have seen a post from you in a while.

Take care, and again - fantastic looking pizza  :drool: :drool: :drool:
Thanks for the compliment. I was active 2-3 years ago and for whatever reason, I got occupied with life. I thought it might be important to let others know of my experience.

 Merry Christmas

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Offline HarryHaller73

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Re: All Trumps High Gluten Flour-Why I won't Buy It Again
« Reply #5 on: December 23, 2016, 10:21:54 PM »
Thanks for the input Harry. I would only mix it in my Kitchen Aid on low for 5 minutes. Maybe if I messed around with it for another 2 months, I would have figured it out (I only make pizzas on Sunday). But all things being equal, the Bouncer and Flour Power were great and the AT was el stinko!

And in AZ, we can't get the bromated kind.

"El Stinko" is an interesting judgement given that All Trumps is used at many great NY pizzerias, it's probably a function of your specific flour, hands, workflow and formulation that just happened to get certain moons lined up to make your pizza.  The permutations are endless.

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: All Trumps High Gluten Flour-Why I won't Buy It Again
« Reply #6 on: December 23, 2016, 10:33:27 PM »
Agreed, your results were more than likely due to your specific dough formulation or dough management procedure that is probably not optimized for AT flour. Remember, if you just substituted AT for another flour your formula was probably low in absorption as with its higher protein content AT flour will require a higher dough absorption, then too your yeast level might not be where it needs to be with AT and your specific dough management procedure, this could result in a stiffer dough or one that does not expand as readily, hence the more dense crumb structure that would be characterized with a tougher/more chewy eating characteristic.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline drmatt357

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All Trumps High Gluten Flour-Why I won't Buy It Again
« Reply #7 on: December 24, 2016, 05:00:07 PM »
Agreed, your results were more than likely due to your specific dough formulation or dough management procedure that is probably not optimized for AT flour. Remember, if you just substituted AT for another flour your formula was probably low in absorption as with its higher protein content AT flour will require a higher dough absorption, then too your yeast level might not be where it needs to be with AT and your specific dough management procedure, this could result in a stiffer dough or one that does not expand as readily, hence the more dense crumb structure that would be characterized with a tougher/more chewy eating characteristic.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor
Thanks and agreed Tom. I'm sure if I would have changed enough of my variables, I could have sorted it out.

I guess I was being a little harsh Harry. Nothing against AT really. I know guys much better at it than me could have figured out the problem as I've heard others rave about this flour.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2016, 05:02:34 PM by drmatt357 »

Offline gfgman

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Re: All Trumps High Gluten Flour-Why I won't Buy It Again
« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2016, 07:30:40 PM »
I get AT from Restaurant Depot, mainly because it comes in a 25 lb. bag.  I want to try Pillsbury balancer, but I don't want to buy a 50lb. bag.  My experience:  When the AT is over developed, it acts like a stress ball.  When it is under developed, it tastes like it.  When it is properly developed, it tastes beautiful.

Offline drmatt357

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Re: All Trumps High Gluten Flour-Why I won't Buy It Again
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2017, 02:52:04 AM »
I've revisited the Trumps and seem to be having better luck. I increased kneading time from 7 to 10 minutes but mainly went from a 60-62% hydration to 67-70%. I also will only use semolina flour on the peel (no pizza flour) as this seems to help with the burning and a better texture to the bottom.

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Offline mbrulato

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Re: All Trumps High Gluten Flour-Why I won't Buy It Again
« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2017, 11:38:13 AM »
I appreciate the update, Matt.  I just recently bought a 25 bag of AT to try in my WFO.  After one use, I quickly remembered what it was like to use a HG flour.  When I first joined the forum 4 years ago, I used KA HG flour, but then I bought Pillsbury Best Bakers Patent flour which is about 12.8% protein versus AT being around 14%+.  With my first bake, most likely I overdeveloped the dough and had a little trouble opening it up, but immediately knew what I needed to do to get it right for the next NY bake.  I wish you much success with this bag of AT and glad it seems better.

 :chef:
Mary Ann

"Have courage and be kind" - Cinderella

Offline clarkth

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Re: All Trumps High Gluten Flour-Why I won't Buy It Again
« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2017, 09:40:20 AM »
I've revisited the Trumps and seem to be having better luck. I increased kneading time from 7 to 10 minutes but mainly went from a 60-62% hydration to 67-70%. I also will only use semolina flour on the peel (no pizza flour) as this seems to help with the burning and a better texture to the bottom.

I agree with the hydration.  When I started using AT I had to go to 68% from 63% to get the same crust

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