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Offline renchero

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Need a low-rising dough
« on: April 17, 2017, 11:34:35 AM »
Hey Tom and others,

I was wondering if you could give me a few pointers here.  I currently make a dough based on an America's Test Kitchen recipe.  Sorry - I don't have baker's percentages.  I was using this dough way before I even knew what those were.  I'll measure it out one of these days though.  It's as follows:

4 cups bread flour
1 tbsp Sugar
1 tsp IDY
14 oz Cold Water
2 tbsp Pure Olive Oil
2 tsp salt

I do at least a 24 cold ferment and then it come up to room temperature in the bowl.  Then I divide into two dough balls and let them sit in my proofing box.  The dough is a nice chewy rich crust that has a nice crumb too and the rise is wonderful.

Here's my question.  I also make a double decker pizza.  Not many have heard of it but it's pretty much commonplace in Northern Illinois (Bill's Pizza Pub supposedly created it).  My issue is that for this double decker type pizza, the above dough rises way too much.  I parbake the top layer of crust and then put down the other dough, sauce and cheese it, put on the par baked. I've heard about using a reducing agent or something like that but wanted to check with you all before I go and possibly mess up a perfectly good batch of dough. 

Any ideas?  If you need the percentages, I can put together a batch today and get back to you. 

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Re: Need a low-rising dough
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2017, 03:28:55 PM »
Actually, what you are referring to is a "stuffed" pizza. Very common in Chicago and surrounding area. Edwardo's is the pizzeria that put it on the map as they were possibly one of the first pizzerias to really commercialize this type of pizza. That top crust is nothing more than the bottom crust sheeted very thin. After putting the top dough skin in place and crimping it to the inside of the pan (crimping it to the bottom dough) roll over the top of the pan with a rolling pin to crimp cut the excess dough away from the pan, then cut or tear a couple steam vents into the thin top skin and par-bake just until the top crust develops a sandy color, remove from the oven and apply toppings and place back into the oven to finish baking.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline renchero

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Need a low-rising dough
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2017, 05:24:35 PM »
Hey Tom,

Actually it's not the stuffed pizza. That one I make and love.  This one is really quite unknown.  I've linked an article below which has some info and pics on there.  It's the style of pizza I grew up with and THE reason I learned how to make pizza in the first place, since I couldn't find a place that served double deckers here in Texas.

http://chicago.seriouseats.com/2009/11/bills-pizza-pub-mundeleins.html

Notice in the pics, the dough doesn't have a lot of holes, it's quite thin and the rise of that dough doesn't seem huge.  My dough on the bottom and the top and especially on the cornicione gets pretty big.  I've attached a pic of my pie below as well.  I have tried less yeast but I'm still not intuitively able to formulate dough recipes based on my specific needs.  I'm still learning how to be comfortable with dough.  :)
« Last Edit: April 17, 2017, 05:29:49 PM by renchero »

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Re: Need a low-rising dough
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2017, 06:21:26 PM »
I see how it differs from a Chicago stuffed pizza with the fully baked crust being added during the building of the pizza.
To control the rise of your dough I suggest two things that you can do. One is to reduce the yeast by 50% and the other is to reduce the amount of water being added to the dough. For this type of crust I'd suggest starting at 50% absorption and going up from there if necessary. I don't know how much 4-cups of YOUR flour weigh so I can't be any more specific. I stand to be corrected on this but if I remember correctly, 1-cup of flour??? weighs in at around 4.75-ounces so 4.75 X 4 = 19-ounces X 50% = 9.5-ounces.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline renchero

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Re: Need a low-rising dough
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2017, 06:28:25 PM »
Awesome. Thanks Tom. I'll get my original dough formula into percents and post another reply to help solidify this one. Thanks!!

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Offline Qapla

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Re: Need a low-rising dough
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2017, 07:25:10 PM »
Tom has much more experience and expertise than I do ...... but, have you thought of reducing the volume of dough by 25% and stretching/rolling the dough a bit thinner before you dress them?

Using your recipe that would be:

3 cups bread flour
3/4 tbsp Sugar
3/4 tsp IDY
10.5 oz Cold Water
1.5 tbsp Pure Olive Oil
1.5 tsp salt

Offline renchero

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Re: Need a low-rising dough
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2017, 09:18:02 AM »
I could try reducing the total weight too.  I'll try both and post results.  :)  Thanks.

Offline renchero

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Re: Need a low-rising dough
« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2017, 08:55:13 AM »
OK.  Here's my bakers % for the original dough formula. 

INGREDIENT   BAKER'S %   "WEIGHT in oz
(Single Pizza)"
KA Bread Flour   100.00%   22.65
Water   60.02%   13.59
Pure Olive Oil   4.65%   1.05
Sugar   1.32%   0.30
Salt   2.21%   0.50
IDY   0.44%   0.10
TOTAL   168.64%   38.20

My question is Tom, if I lower the water to 50% should I add more oil?  I haven't tried reducing to 50% yet but I'm quite certain that it will be too dry.  Also - should I use AP flour instead?  Would the lower protein level help at all?  There are just so many factors into bread and dough that I haven't begun to know them all yet. As always, all of your help is much appreciated!

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Re: Need a low-rising dough
« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2017, 11:21:29 AM »
No, do not increase the oil when decreasing the dough absorption, let fermentation take care of softening the dough for you. If you are worried, start out at 55% and come down from there if necessary.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline renchero

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Re: Need a low-rising dough
« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2017, 11:33:30 AM »
No, do not increase the oil when decreasing the dough absorption, let fermentation take care of softening the dough for you. If you are worried, start out at 55% and come down from there if necessary.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Okay!  Now I'm intrigued. I will try and let you know it goes. Thanks.

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Offline patdakat345

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Re: Need a low-rising dough
« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2017, 01:20:24 PM »
Tom I believe your estimate of the weight of one cup of flour is too high. King Arthur unbleached and bread flour both come in 4 1/4 oz or 120 grams.

For those interested in the weight of other King Arthur flours; see this site http://www.kingarthurflour.com/learn/ingredient-weight-chart.html

pat

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Re: Need a low-rising dough
« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2017, 05:16:53 PM »
Thanks Pat.
I don't deal with volumetric portions very much anymore so I never remember the conversion weights, and when converting a recipe to a formula I always portion first and then weigh those portions, it's the most accurate way since we all portion differently.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

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