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Author Topic: Why is this happening to the bottom of my Pan Pizza?  (Read 662 times)

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Offline csnack

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Why is this happening to the bottom of my Pan Pizza?
« on: April 20, 2017, 03:23:40 AM »
It's quiet in here.
Well I've been working on this pan pizza recipe. Ingredient-wise it's more like an old Godfather's pan than the Pizza Hut, but aesthetically pretty much the same. And I'm close to nailing it, but there's this problem that happens just about every time. I can't seem to get the bottom evenly browned, as seen in first photo (it's also not as brown as it looks, it's a dark photo). You can see several white spots that didn't make proper contact with the pan. Sometimes it's better than other times. Those white spots are essentially bubbles where the crust must be bubbling up during bake or during pan rise, rather than maintaining full flat contact on the pan and browning properly. I've started taking better notes now, because one time I got perfect browning (second photo) though I'm not sure what was different. But usually it's really spotty.
My work flow:
I mix the dough and target a 75 final dough temp, then CF for 24-hour in a container like an NY. Then RT for, in this case 2h 40m. Then stretch out dough in crisco greased pan, then then then cover pan and let dough pan rise until it puffs up some, in this case 1h 20m - so all together that's 4 hours RT after the 24 hour CF. Top then bake in well-seasoned anodized heavy aluminum 14" x 2" pan, which I place onto my Lodge cast iron pizza pan, at 450 (preheated for an hour+) for around 12-14min. It is almost perfect except for this browning issue.
Sometimes a big bubble develops right beneath and in the middle of the crust shortly after placed in oven, as seen in the very last photo - like a golf or tennis ball is trapped under the crust.

Is it something in my work flow? Too much RT and maybe too much gas developed? Is it something in my recipe? I don't use milk powder because I don't think I need it and I'm a rebel. As you can see in that other photo I got along fine without it. I think during the pan rise something is making the bottom of the dough lift off the pan in sections - or maybe it happens during bake. Any idea what's up? 3rd photo shows pan stretched, and what it looks like after 1 hour pan rise.

My current 24-hour cold ferment Pan Pizza dough for the Food Processor (13.5 oz KABF):

13.5 oz KABF
58% ice water (7.83 oz)
3% salt (0.405 oz)
3% sugar (0.405 oz)
3% evoo (0.405 oz)
.80% idy (0.108 oz)
75 FDT
« Last Edit: April 20, 2017, 06:48:47 AM by csnack »

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Why is this happening to the bottom of my Pan Pizza?
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2017, 07:02:34 AM »
csnack,

I'm sure Tom will respond in due course but in the meantime you might take a look at this post by Tom at the PMQ Think Tank:

http://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/ask-the-experts-question-for-lehmann.7358/#post-49630

Peter

Offline invertedisdead

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Re: Why is this happening to the bottom of my Pan Pizza?
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2017, 12:10:22 PM »
It could be from opening the dough unevenly. I've had this problem with focaccia and Sicilian pizza and one tip I received was to open the dough on the counter instead of directly in the pan.

Offline jsaras

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Re: Why is this happening to the bottom of my Pan Pizza?
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2017, 02:02:10 PM »
It could be from opening the dough unevenly. I've had this problem with focaccia and Sicilian pizza and one tip I received was to open the dough on the counter instead of directly in the pan.

Yes, and use bench flour
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Offline csnack

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Re: Why is this happening to the bottom of my Pan Pizza?
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2017, 02:35:55 PM »
Hmm maybe. I'm pretty sure though that it's not an issue of the dough being opened unevenly. I take the fermented dough out of the circular container and plop it into the center of the pan where near as I can tell I evenly press it out towards the edge of the pan, spinning the pan around to easily facilitate it until it is as seen in the previous photo. So seemingly there are no uneven spots, i.e. pretty much a rolling pin-esque flat even surface.
FWIW, I have tried docking with both that docker down there and with a fork, though I know that the problem I'm having is not what a docker is designed to solve, and though the idea of the fork here is meant to actually poke clear through the dough to facilitate the release of air, that hasn't worked either.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2017, 02:37:28 PM by csnack »

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Offline csnack

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Re: Why is this happening to the bottom of my Pan Pizza?
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2017, 02:42:09 PM »
csnack,

I'm sure Tom will respond in due course but in the meantime you might take a look at this post by Tom at the PMQ Think Tank:

http://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/ask-the-experts-question-for-lehmann.7358/#post-49630

Peter
What it says at that link is what seems to be happening. I get better results when I RT the dough in the container for 5-6 hours, but the flavor with that short fermentation is uninspiring. But every time I try to take the dough out past 6 hours, like 11 to 24 hours to get more flavor I get larger and larger air pockets under there which don't brown in those spots.
I do use shortening rather than oil - and I didn't think it made a difference since the shortening quickly becomes oil in the oven. But I think Tom was referring to the time during the <i>pan rise with shortening</i>, where you stretch the dough across the pan greased with shortening, and during the pan rise the sticky shortening holds the dough in place as it pan rises, and as such any air pockets that develop under the dough during the pan rise are unable to escape and thus a pocket is present in the End product. Am I understanding that correctly?

If so that's unfortunate, as I was digging the butter-flavored crisco, which I know other people, including Tom I believe, are using, too, though maybe they're not shooting for a long ferment for their pan doughs. I suppose I can try oil. But Papa Murphy's uses this butter-flavored oil in their pan pizza pans, which is why I got the Crisco. Maybe I can locate a butter-flavored oil, or even use the butter-flavored Pam spray knock off I spray the dough balls with.
Another thing I've found is that I seem to get better browning when I use less shortening. I didn't use a ton to begin with, just a decent smearing. But things seemed to improve when I used even less and I believe that was the occasion that I got that really nice browning in the second photo I posted. I guess I'll give oil a try.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2017, 02:44:08 PM by csnack »

Offline Hermit

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Re: Why is this happening to the bottom of my Pan Pizza?
« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2017, 02:57:43 PM »
When you take the dough out of your proofing container, are you placing it bottom side down into the pan?  I wonder if the air pockets that form on the bottom of the doughball during proofing are the main contributor to this issue.  Perhaps using the top side of the dough on the bottom side of the pan may have a positive effect?

Offline csnack

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Re: Why is this happening to the bottom of my Pan Pizza?
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2017, 03:13:52 PM »
When you take the dough out of your proofing container, are you placing it bottom side down into the pan?  I wonder if the air pockets that form on the bottom of the doughball during proofing are the main contributor to this issue.  Perhaps using the top side of the dough on the bottom side of the pan may have a positive effect?
That's good thinking and I had thought of that once too and I believe I tried it once, but due to my lack of proper note taking at the time I don't remember the outcome, but I'm going to start practicing that from now on. But I had thought that those fermentation air pockets were a non-issue since the dough was being pressed down and out across the pan and that they would smooth and even out. But yeah it stands to reason that the smooth and even top should make a better bottom making full pan contact.

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Why is this happening to the bottom of my Pan Pizza?
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2017, 04:28:57 PM »
Just for "smiles and grins" try using a rolling pin to open the dough just a little larger in diameter than your pan, then carefully place the dough into the pan. This might help with a dough that is rather gassy.
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Offline petef

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Re: Why is this happening to the bottom of my Pan Pizza?
« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2017, 05:17:50 PM »
I do use shortening rather than oil - and I didn't think it made a difference since the shortening quickly becomes oil in the oven.

Your sample of the desired results looks a lot like my pan pizza results. I use a 10" by 15" pan and a generous amount of oil. I mean it's a thick layer and not just a thin coating. With Crisco It would be more difficult to get an evenly spread thick layer, so you might try Oil and spread it evenly with your fingers. I'm estimating for your pan, about 2 tablespoons and it should be at least 1/16" thick.

The idea of using so much oil is that the dough fries in the pan and with enough oil it fries evenly. Perhaps you had a condition where there was not enough oil or Crisco which resulted in uneven heat or uneven frying. With enough oil in the pan I'm thinking that it would saturate the the bottom of the dough and keep it stuck down to the pan.

PS: We are always so precise the amounts in our ingredients list. This might be an example of where we need the same exactness with regards to tablespoons or ounces of oil used for a given pan size. I probably use 2 to 3 tablespoons of Bertoli Classico olive oil for my 10" by 15" pan.

--pete--
« Last Edit: April 20, 2017, 05:23:33 PM by petef »

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Offline csnack

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Re: Why is this happening to the bottom of my Pan Pizza?
« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2017, 05:58:17 PM »



  I probably use 2 to 3 tablespoons of Bertoli Classico olive oil for my 10" by 15" pan.

--pete--

Olive oil? That could be interesting. I have some to try. I'm pretty sure that adding real butter to the oil will burn the crust(?) Has anyone seen that Orval R. butter flavored popcorn oil? It's just butter flavored soybean oil. I'm gonna make another one tomorrow with some oil and I'll post the result. I may the rolling pin if that doesn't work, as I believe that they use for the PH version.
Aside from that, the crust was very flavorful, much more so than the 6 hour RT, and light and puffy. I'm almost there.

Offline petef

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Re: Why is this happening to the bottom of my Pan Pizza?
« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2017, 06:23:37 PM »

Olive oil? That could be interesting.

Bertoli Classico is a light tasting oil.

Offline invertedisdead

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Re: Why is this happening to the bottom of my Pan Pizza?
« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2017, 08:20:01 PM »
Hmm maybe. I'm pretty sure though that it's not an issue of the dough being opened unevenly. I take the fermented dough out of the circular container and plop it into the center of the pan where near as I can tell I evenly press it out towards the edge of the pan, spinning the pan around to easily facilitate it until it is as seen in the previous photo. So seemingly there are no uneven spots, i.e. pretty much a rolling pin-esque flat even surface.
FWIW, I have tried docking with both that docker down there and with a fork, though I know that the problem I'm having is not what a docker is designed to solve, and though the idea of the fork here is meant to actually poke clear through the dough to facilitate the release of air, that hasn't worked either.

I think with higher TF doughs you can have the topside look evenly stretched, and the bottom where it makes contact with the pan not be. I thought mine were even too but I'd get the same spotty bottom for a while. You can also try doing the RT rise first, and then stretch in the pan and cold proof so you don't have to degas the dough further. I like that method it just takes up more room in the fridge than an unopened dough.

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Why is this happening to the bottom of my Pan Pizza?
« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2017, 08:32:16 PM »
Actually, butter flavored popcorn oil is different from other types of butter flavored oils. The butter flavoring is compounded to release at only slightly elevated temperature (like that of popcorn just after popping) and once released, it dissipates rapidly, this is why when you get to the bottom of the box the popped corn is wet and soggy but not buttery as it used to be. Why not just make your own? Buy some butter, allow it to set at room temperature for about 30-days, this will ripen the flavor (make it stronger) then melt the butter gently in a double boiler and add just enough of your preferred oil to retain the pour-able characteristics when it cools back down to refrigerated temperature, store at refrigerated temperature to prevent further flavor change, now you have made your own butter flavored oil. If you use shortening rather than butter there is no need to age the shortening and you only need to add enough oil to keep it liquid at room temperature, you've now made your own liquid bread shortening. Liquid bread shortening is stored at room temperature.
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Offline csnack

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Re: Why is this happening to the bottom of my Pan Pizza?
« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2017, 09:25:30 PM »


Actually, butter flavored popcorn oil is different from other types of butter flavored oils. The butter flavoring is compounded to release at only slightly elevated temperature (like that of popcorn just after popping) and once released, it dissipates rapidly, this is why when you get to the bottom of the box the popped corn is wet and soggy but not buttery as it used to be.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

I didn't know that. Good thing I came home with peanut oil today rather than the Kernal Seasons movie theater butter oil I found there. I'd totally be down to make my own butter oil. I had assumed real bitter would brown too much. I'll try making my own since I'm so obsessed with it. Maybe infuse it with peanut oil that'd be cool.

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Offline csnack

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Re: Why is this happening to the bottom of my Pan Pizza?
« Reply #15 on: April 20, 2017, 09:56:21 PM »


I think with higher TF doughs you can have the topside look evenly stretched, and the bottom where it makes contact with the pan not be. I thought mine were even too but I'd get the same spotty bottom for a while. You can also try doing the RT rise first, and then stretch in the pan and cold proof so you don't have to degas the dough further. I like that method it just takes up more room in the fridge than an unopened dough.

You're saying I should proof the dough at RT first, in the container, as if it were an emergency dough, then pull from container and stretch it out into the pan, cover it and put the whole pan in the fridge and essentially do a 24 CF pan rise in there? Or are we omitting the container and doing it all in the pan? Like, once I've balled the dough I put it down into the pan and maybe flatten it out a little and do the RT and the CF all in the pan? I think that's how the PH clone works. I'll have to do that next time, as I've already got round 2 in the fridge in a container the same as last time and I'll be using peanut oil this time. I've got my NY nailed down now. I'm real close with my pants.

Offline invertedisdead

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Re: Why is this happening to the bottom of my Pan Pizza?
« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2017, 11:43:40 AM »

You're saying I should proof the dough at RT first, in the container, as if it were an emergency dough, then pull from container and stretch it out into the pan, cover it and put the whole pan in the fridge and essentially do a 24 CF pan rise in there? Or are we omitting the container and doing it all in the pan? Like, once I've balled the dough I put it down into the pan and maybe flatten it out a little and do the RT and the CF all in the pan? I think that's how the PH clone works. I'll have to do that next time, as I've already got round 2 in the fridge in a container the same as last time and I'll be using peanut oil this time. I've got my NY nailed down now. I'm real close with my pants.

Id mix the dough and let it rest in "bulk" for a few hours to relax a bit (yeast % dependent) then open/stretch into the pan, and stick that in the fridge overnight. At least that's what I like to do, kind of borrowed from some bread making techniques where they shape at RT then CF so all they have to do is let the dough acclimate for an hour or two the next day and bake.

Offline jsaras

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Re: Why is this happening to the bottom of my Pan Pizza?
« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2017, 10:34:15 PM »
Those issues disappeared for me when I started opening the dough with some bench flour and then moving to an oiled pan.  Going directly to an oiled pan never worked out as well.
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Offline HarryHaller73

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Re: Why is this happening to the bottom of my Pan Pizza?
« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2017, 10:47:59 PM »
When dough is in contact with pan, it browns.  When parts don't, it is pale.  So, what is causing parts of the dough to "lift" during baking.  Could be a number of things.

My experience is using a combination of too much oil in pan and too much cold fermentation (weak gluten), gets parts of the undercrust to "lift".

« Last Edit: April 22, 2017, 05:04:51 PM by HarryHaller73 »

Offline csnack

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Re: Why is this happening to the bottom of my Pan Pizza?
« Reply #19 on: April 22, 2017, 05:53:26 PM »
I made a chicken, bacon and ranch pan pizza last night. I did everything the same as before for the sake of being able to gauge the effect of the one thing I changed, which was the use of peanut oil rather than the usual shortening - 1/4 cup of it for 14" pan (really 13.25" as it's a nested pan). 24 hours CF in the container, then a couple hours RT. After that, in the past when I used shortening I've been stretching the dough out in the pan all the way to the edge and then letting it rise for an hour or so from there. I guess the shortening helped hold the dough in place while I pan stretched, but this time the oil fought me as the dough did stretch, but would slide back a little so I gave up stretching once it was within 1.5" or so from the edge, covered the pan and then let it rise for about 3 hours this time to try to get it to reach the edge. I don't know why I thought I'd be able to stretch the dough out across 1/4 cup of slippery oil. About 3 hours later it was close enough.
The peanut oil worked much better than the shortening for the bottom crust.
Incidentally, I did plop the dough smooth top down into pan this time. There were a few blonde spots with the oil, but I'm not complaining too much this time as even the blonde spots were relatively flat had a very nice fried crunch that was superior to the results with shortening. With the shortening, the blond spots were soft-ish and very dimpled amd even the brown spots weren't as crunchy. I baked at 450 for approx 14min w/ a 180 spin half way through. I'd like a tad more browning on the top crust (and more even on bottom I guess) so next time I'll bake at 425 for a little longer. I've baked in the past between 425 and 500 and found that 450 works best. My boring-tasting 6 hour pan dough browns evenly all around at that bake temp, but I've noticed that the longer I ferment these pan doughs the more, or the longer it takes to get the same uniform browning, and the bottom and the toppings end up nicely browned and done before the top crust gets the desired browning.
I didn't miss the butter flavored shortening; the dough this time had a very rich and buttery flavor on it's own for some reason. Probably the result of fermentation, as the pan pizza I made in the first post with shortening had that quality too, but this one even more so. This cooked up puffy and a big piece in your hand felt very light.
From now on though I'm going to take the advice here and stretch outside of the pan w/ just enough bench flour to make it handle-able - stretch it to almost the size of the pan's surface area and then rise it covered from there. That detail is how it's done for the PH clone, and I probably should've just been following those instructions, but I'm a man and I've got my own ideas.
I've been cold fermenting first and then pan rising at RT - the opposite of the PH clone, and doing it that way involves one instance of degassing, since I CF/RT in the container, remove and then stretch in the pan and then rise again. The PH clone otoh goes straight from mixing to being rolled out and then placed in the pan to rise at RT and then CF, but the dough doesn't get touched again after the initial roll out. Perhaps next weekend I'll make one each way on Friday and Saturday night consecutively to see if it matters.

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