Pizza Making Forum

Pizza Making => Newbie Topics => Topic started by: Traver on April 18, 2008, 09:04:36 AM

Title: My Pizza Experiment
Post by: Traver on April 18, 2008, 09:04:36 AM
Great site! I wish I'd found it a long time ago. Making decent pizza in has been a pet project of mine ever since I moved to a rural area where I couldn't get good pizza. I thought I would post the recipe I came up with. It might give some of you some ideas or give some of you old pros a good laugh. It obviously isn't authentic anything, but a combination of dough recipes I found and trial and error. It is definitely home made. My hobby is cooking and not baking so my measurements are by volume and I've found that slightly imprecise measurements in this concoction don't make a significant difference. Don't laugh too hard, it is pretty tasty.

Here you go...

1 1/4 c. Warm Water
1 T. Olive Oil
1 Egg White
2 T. Lard
1 t. Salt
2 t. Sugar (or honey)
2 3/4 c. Bread Flour
1/4 c. Semolina Flour
3 T. Vital Wheat Gluten
3 T. Nonfat Dry Milk
1 1/4 t. Bread Machine Yeast

I put all the ingredients in a Cuisinart bread machine in the order listed and run the 2 lb. dough making cycle (40 min.. knead, 1 hour rise). Then I put the dough in a large covered bowl in the refrigerator. This recipe will make two 14" pizzas. I usually make the dough in the morning for a pizza that evening for dinner and then make the second pizza two or three days later for with good results.

To make the pizza, I dust a peel with semolina flour and roll out the dough. At first I used a cheap thin baking stone and had good results baking at 500 for 10 minutes. Then I bough a FibraMent stone and found that the results are better at 450 for 10 minutes otherwise the bottom is overdone.

Attached is a pic. Not I'll have to use all the info on this site to make something more authentic.



Title: Re: My Pizza Experiment
Post by: Pete-zza on April 18, 2008, 09:33:38 AM
Traver,

There is absolutely nothing wrong with your recipe. All that matters is whether you like the end results.

Out of curiosity, can you tell me exactly how you measure out the flour from the flour container? The standard method recommended by flour producers is to stir the flour in the container to loosen in, then lift the flour with a tablespoon or scoop into the measuring cups/spoons, and then level the tops with the flat edge of a knife or its equivalent. Others simply dip the measuring cup into the flour without first stirring it and then shake the cup to get the flour level in it. Of course, there are several other possible methods.

Also, can you tell us what brand of bread flour and what brands of vital wheat gluten and nonfat dry milk you have been using?

Thanks.

Peter
Title: Re: My Pizza Experiment
Post by: Traver on April 18, 2008, 10:43:10 AM
Sure.

To measure the flower I use a clear plastic measuring cup that looks like a drinking cup so I can see if there are any air pockets. I just scoop it out of the bag tap it down and level it off. No special technique.

I use whatever bread flour the small grocery I do my everyday shopping has. It isn't always the same. The pizza in the picture was made with King Arthur bread flour. I've also used King Harverst Gold Medal and Pillsbury bread flour with similar results.

The vital wheat gluten and semolina are Bob's Red Mill.

The nonfat dry milk is Carnation.

-Steve
Title: Re: My Pizza Experiment
Post by: Pete-zza on April 18, 2008, 01:26:55 PM
Steve,

Thanks for the additional information. From your description, it sounds like your measuring cup is like this one: http://www.reliablepaper.com/1_Cup_Bouncer_Clear_Measuring_Cup_p/rcp3210cle.htm. (http://www.reliablepaper.com/1_Cup_Bouncer_Clear_Measuring_Cup_p/rcp3210cle.htm.) Is that correct? And I assume that you may be using the same cup for measuring the water.

Just for fun, and since it is rare to see a dough formula with so many different ingredients, I decided to see if I could convert your recipe to baker’s percent format, using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html. (http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html.) In my case, I used metal straight-sided measuring cups to measure out the flour the way you did in order to determine the weight of the flour. I used a glass one-cup Pyrex measuring cup to measure out the water (without trying to be super accurate) and to weigh it. I came up with the following dough formulation:

Flour (100%):
Water (73.5294%):
IDY (0.97656%):
Salt (1.44761%):
Olive Oil (3.50139%):
Sugar (2.06801%):
Vital Wheat Gluten (6.45813%):
Dry Non-Fat Milk (3.3555%):
Lard (6.74342%):
Egg Whites (8.55897%):
Semolina (10.8284%):
Total (217.46739%):
385.56 g  |  13.6 oz | 0.85 lbs
283.5 g  |  10 oz | 0.63 lbs
3.77 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.25 tsp | 0.42 tbsp
5.58 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
13.5 g | 0.48 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3 tsp | 1 tbsp
7.97 g | 0.28 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2 tsp | 0.67 tbsp
24.9 g | 0.88 oz | 0.05 lbs | 9 tsp | 3 tbsp
12.94 g | 0.46 oz | 0.03 lbs | 9 tsp | 3 tbsp
26 g | 0.92 oz | 0.06 lbs | 6 tsp | 2 tbsp
33 g | 1.16 oz | 0.07 lbs | 6.52 tsp | 2.17 tbsp
41.75 g | 1.47 oz | 0.09 lbs | 12 tsp | 4 tbsp
838.47 g | 29.58 oz | 1.85 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: Flour is King Arthur bread flour; the calculated thickness factor is 0.0960633

In looking at the above table, the hydration (73.5294%) looks high, but when the flour, semolina, vital wheat gluten and the nonfat dry milk are added together, and when the water component of the egg white (about 87.6% of it is water) is added to the formula water, the effective hydration becomes 65.8%, which is a reasonable number, albeit a bit on the high side. As also noted in the above table, the calculated thickness factor is 0.0960633 [(29.58/2)/(3.14159 x 7 x 7)] = 0.0960633), which corresponds to a pizza with a thin crust (similar to a NY street style). Using member November’s Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at http://foodsim.toastguard.com/, (http://foodsim.toastguard.com/,) and assuming that I did the calculations properly, I also calculated a protein content for the combination of King Arthur bread flour, Bob’s Red Mill semolina, and Bob’s Red Mill vital wheat gluten of a bit over 16%. That would be higher than a high-gluten flour, which will usually max out at around 14.2% for most domestic brands. Of course, if I weighed out the King Arthur bread flour to get a different result than you will get, then the numbers may be off a bit. If you ever are in a position to weigh out the actual amount of flour you typically use to make your dough, then it would be easy to adjust the numbers based on the actual flour weight. Weighing the water also would also be a big help.

The significance of the above numbers is that they allow one to use the expanded dough calculating tool to produce the ingredient quantities to make any number of dough balls (up to a maximum of 999) for any desired pizza size (not just 14”) while maintaining the finished crust characteristics of your 14” size. For example, if you wanted to make a single 16” pizza, the numbers would look like this:

Flour (100%):
Water (73.5294%):
IDY (0.97656%):
Salt (1.44761%):
Olive Oil (3.50139%):
Sugar (2.06801%):
Vital Wheat Gluten (6.45813%):
Dry Non-Fat Milk (3.3555%):
Lard (6.74342%):
Egg Whites (8.55897%):
Semolina (10.8284%):
Total (217.46739%):
251.79 g  |  8.88 oz | 0.56 lbs
185.14 g  |  6.53 oz | 0.41 lbs
2.46 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.82 tsp | 0.27 tbsp
3.64 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.65 tsp | 0.22 tbsp
8.82 g | 0.31 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.96 tsp | 0.65 tbsp
5.21 g | 0.18 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.31 tsp | 0.44 tbsp
16.26 g | 0.57 oz | 0.04 lbs | 5.88 tsp | 1.96 tbsp
8.45 g | 0.3 oz | 0.02 lbs | 5.88 tsp | 1.96 tbsp
16.98 g | 0.6 oz | 0.04 lbs | 3.92 tsp | 1.31 tbsp
21.55 g | 0.76 oz | 0.05 lbs | 4.26 tsp | 1.42 tbsp
27.27 g | 0.96 oz | 0.06 lbs | 7.84 tsp | 2.61 tbsp
547.57 g | 19.31 oz | 1.21 lbs | TF = 0.096063

Peter
Title: Re: My Pizza Experiment
Post by: November on April 18, 2008, 01:55:42 PM
Peter,

You might have noticed that I updated the Uncle Salmon Food Tools with a few new settings.  You can now select the method by which you measure your compact-able ingredients.  The options are Textbook, Dip, Tamp, and Dip + Tamp.  I took measurements of King Arthur bread flour under these various conditions, used them to calculate standard multipliers, and added this while you were composing your last post.  What's interesting is how close your measurement and the calculated amount (under default depth) came to one another.  If you go back to the calculator and enter 2+3/4 cup King Arthur Bread with Dip turned on, you get 385.7681 g.  Comparing it to your 385.56 g, I'd say we have a workable solution.

- red.november
Title: Re: My Pizza Experiment
Post by: Pete-zza on April 18, 2008, 02:13:38 PM
November,

No, I did not notice the changes. To be honest, I was more concerned about whether I got the total protein content right. I used a two-step process: calculating the protein content of the KA bread flour and the Bob's Red Mill semolina, and then calculating the protein content of that mixture with the vital wheat gluten added. My head was spinning with too many numbers.

Is it safe to say that all of the measuring methods in the tool entail using a leveling of the measuring cup/spoon used (to the extent that the flour is above the top of the cup/spoon)? Also, would "shaking" a measuring cup once the flour is in the cup be treated the same as "tamping"?

I am amazed at how close the flour numbers came. I don't really know what to make of it. If it was good measuring on my part, rather than luck, then that suggests that your revised tool should be even more useful than in the past.

Peter
Title: Re: My Pizza Experiment
Post by: November on April 18, 2008, 02:35:07 PM
Peter,

Is it safe to say that all of the measuring methods in the tool entail using a leveling of the measuring cup/spoon used (to the extent that the flour is above the top of the cup/spoon)? Also, would "shaking" a measuring cup once the flour is in the cup be treated the same as "tamping"?

All methods of measurement assume a leveling off at the end.  There is no "heaping" option, and probably never will be.

The term "tamp" in this case refers to a process of banging the cup of flour on the work surface to force more compaction.  Conceptually, I can't see how shaking a cup of flour would be very useful except to spill flour all around it.  Some settling would occur as a result of course, but why anyone would do it if they're trying to compact the flour is beyond me.  A side-to-side motion is very inefficient for downward compaction.  I guess the answer to your second question is, no; unless you conduct a "shaking" experiment and determine that the numbers are the same as for dipping.

If it was good measuring on my part, rather than luck, then that suggests that your revised tool should be even more useful than in the past.

That was the goal.

- red.november
Title: Re: My Pizza Experiment
Post by: Pete-zza on April 18, 2008, 03:13:20 PM
November,

I was recently trying to replicate a recipe by JerryMac where the flour was recited by volume. I suspected that Jerry was just dipping his measuring cup into the flour, to the point of overflowing, and then shaking off the excess to effectively level off the top of the cup. He subsequently confirmed that approach at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5851.msg55560.html#msg55560 (Reply 61, second line). Even in this thread, it is not entirely clear how Steve is "tamping" his measuring cup. I think his language "I just scoop it out of the bag tap it down and level it off" can be construed to mean that he is "tapping" the cup itself (e.g., by rapping the measuring cup with something) rather than tapping the cup itself on a work surface. I would consider both methods as being equivalent, or close enough to be treated as such. Is that a fair interpretation?

Peter
Title: Re: My Pizza Experiment
Post by: November on April 18, 2008, 03:35:45 PM
Peter,

Tamping does not produce the same results as striking the side of the cup or shaking the cup.  I see shaking to level off as an alternative to leveling off with a flat edge.  Flat edge leveling is specifically assumed in the calculator.  I would place "shaking to level" in the same category as heaping (although in a subcategory of its own), because shaking rarely gets the column of flour perfectly level.  Shaking to compact is another matter altogether.  Compaction shaking, or forced settling, typically results in much less compaction than tamping.  You'll notice that if tamping were employed, according to the calculator the mass would be 414.2957 g.  Shaking just can't come close.

In Steve's case, tapping has an elusive definition.  If he means tamping, 428.7379 g would be closer to what he's working with.  If he's tapping the side, it would be slightly more compact than a normal dip and level.  If he means load-packing with a rim limit, then it's exactly the same as heaping.

- red.november
Title: Re: My Pizza Experiment
Post by: November on April 18, 2008, 03:53:51 PM
Peter,

This is interesting.  I went to conduct shaking tests to see how shaking compared to the other methods.  As I expected, shaking does not come close to tamping, but it's almost identical to dipping by itself.  Dipping and shaking together is almost identical to tamping by itself.  So, I'm not sure how to label that because most people will use shaking in addition to another method.  For now I will update the labels, but some may be confused by it.

- red.november
Title: Re: My Pizza Experiment
Post by: November on April 18, 2008, 04:03:19 PM
For the record, when I dipped and shook to level off (not shaking the cup before it was full), the weight of the flour was exactly half-way between "Dip or Shake" and "Tamp or Dip + Shake."  This was possibly Jerry's method.  If this comes up again, you may be able to simply take an average of the two values.
Title: Re: My Pizza Experiment
Post by: Traver on April 18, 2008, 04:23:22 PM
Interesting. That's a lot of number crunching. I guess I'd need a scale to get the numbers exact.

The cup I use is similar to the one at the link. It came with my bread machine. I don't think I really compact the flour. I dip the cup in the flour and then poke it or tap it on the counter to get any air pockets out and shake it to make it level at the top.

The cup I use for water is different. I never thought about it before, but I checked it out and the volume is about 1/8 (12.5%) less.

The crust is fairly thin. About 1/8 inch in the center. It's also fairly rich.

Thanks for the info.

-Steve
Title: Re: My Pizza Experiment
Post by: November on April 18, 2008, 04:27:00 PM
I dip the cup in the flour and then poke it or tap it on the counter to get any air pockets out and shake it to make it level at the top.

You just listed three things that are compacting your flour beyond the force of gravity: dip, tap (possibly tamp), shake.
Title: Re: My Pizza Experiment
Post by: November on April 18, 2008, 04:41:51 PM
Peter and Steve,

Based on the information given, I calculate the total hydration of the dough to about 63.0617%.  That's based on all the flours (measured with dip and tamp), water and egg moisture.

- red.november
Title: Re: My Pizza Experiment
Post by: Pete-zza on April 18, 2008, 04:44:00 PM
November,

I think it would help if the different measuring methods were defined in detail so that users of the tool don't have to guess. For example, are the following descriptions correct?

"Dip" means lifting flour into a measuring cup and leveling off with a flat edge;

"Shake" means lifting flour into a measuring cup, shaking the cup, and leveling off with a flat edge;

"Tamp" means lifting flour into a measuring cup, tamping the cup on a work surface, and leveling off with a flat edge;

"Dip + Shake" means dipping a measuring cup into the flour container, shaking the cup, and levelling off with a flat edge;

"Dip + Tamp" means dipping a measuring cup into the flour container, tamping the cup on a work surface, and leveling off with a flat edge.

All of these definitions would presume that the flour in the cup is initially above the rim of the measuring cup. "Lifting" the flour can be done with a tablespoon or scoop or their equivalent.

Peter

 
Title: Re: My Pizza Experiment
Post by: November on April 18, 2008, 04:49:47 PM
Peter,

All the verbs act on the same subject, "cup of flour" so the noun being dipped is the cup.  What you described as "Dip" is the "Textbook" method.  The rest of the definitions are accurate except I'm not sure what you mean by "flour in the cup is initially above the rim."

- red.november
Title: Re: My Pizza Experiment
Post by: Pete-zza on April 18, 2008, 04:52:16 PM
I dip the cup in the flour and then poke it or tap it on the counter to get any air pockets out and shake it to make it level at the top.

Steve,

I took a look at the instructions that came with my Zojirushi bread maker and they are as follows for the one-cup measuring cup that came with the bread maker:

1. Spoon the dry ingredients into the cup filling it to overflowing. Do not press or shake down.

2. Level by sweeping off the excess with a knife.

The instructions also say to level off measuring spoons the same way for small amounts of dry ingredients.

Peter
Title: Re: My Pizza Experiment
Post by: Pete-zza on April 18, 2008, 05:11:58 PM
November,

Thank you.

Is this set of definitions now correct:

"Textbook" means lifting flour from the flour container into a measuring cup and leveling off the flour in the cup with a flat edge;

"Dip" means dipping a measuring cup into the flour container and leveling off the flour in the cup with a flat edge;

"Shake" means lifting flour from the flour container into a measuring cup, shaking the cup, and leveling off the flour in the cup with a flat edge;

"Tamp" means lifting flour from the flour container into a measuring cup, tamping the cup on a work surface, and leveling off the flour in the cup with a flat edge;

"Dip + Shake" means dipping a measuring cup into the flour container, shaking the cup, and levelling off the flour in the cup with a flat edge;

"Dip + Tamp" means dipping a measuring cup into the flour container, tamping the cup on a work surface, and leveling off the flour in the cup with a flat edge.

What I meant with the reference to the flour being initially above the rim of the measuring cup is that the flour is overflowing the cup, which is a prerequisite to leveling with a flat edge.

Do any of the methods described above require that the flour in the flour container be stirred before lifting or before dipping?

Peter



Title: Re: My Pizza Experiment
Post by: November on April 18, 2008, 05:28:08 PM
Peter,

What I meant with the reference to the flour being initially above the rim of the measuring cup is that the flour is overflowing the cup, which is a prerequisite to leveling with a flat edge.

To say it's a prerequisite for leveling is fine, but it should not be viewed as prerequisite for any step prior to the leveling step.  The reason is because the shaking, tamping, etc. is done before the flour is overflowing, otherwise it would just be another method of leveling in some cases.  To be more specific about what I was looking for as I measured the flour, I shook or tamped until the flour settled to its lowest point and repeated such shaking or tamping after each spoonful added (in the case of the non-dipped cups).

Do any of the methods described above require that the flour in the flour container be stirred before lifting or before dipping?

Not before dipping, but before lifting, yes.  People tend to dip until matched with a certain degree of resistance which makes pre-stirring unnecessary.  A stirred flour will provide less resistance but will allow the cup to move through with more force, thereby compacting the flour to similar levels anyway.

- red.november

EDIT:
Is this set of definitions now correct:
Yes.
Title: Re: My Pizza Experiment
Post by: Pete-zza on April 18, 2008, 05:58:55 PM
November,

Do these definitions look OK now?

"Textbook" means stirring the flour in the flour container to loosen, lifting the stirred flour from the flour container into a measuring cup, and leveling off the flour in the cup with a flat edge (as the final step before emptying the cup);

"Dip" means dipping a measuring cup into the flour container and leveling off the flour in the cup with a flat edge (as the final step before emptying the cup);

"Shake" means stirring the flour in the flour container to loosen, lifting the stirred flour from the flour container into a measuring cup, shaking the cup, and leveling off the flour in the cup with a flat edge (as the final step before emptying the cup);

"Tamp" means stirring the flour in the flour container to loosen, lifting the stirred flour from the flour container into a measuring cup, tamping the cup on a work surface, and leveling off the flour in the cup with a flat edge (as the final step before emptying the cup);

"Dip + Shake" means dipping a measuring cup into the flour container, shaking the cup, and levelling off the flour in the cup with a flat edge (as the final step before emptying the cup);

"Dip + Tamp" means dipping a measuring cup into the flour container, tamping the cup on a work surface, and leveling off the flour in the cup with a flat edge (as the final step before emptying the cup).

Peter
Title: Re: My Pizza Experiment
Post by: November on April 18, 2008, 06:09:30 PM
Peter,

I think that may be a bit excessive on describing the final step as the final step.  All I wanted to be sure of was that you knew "shaking" for example, was not a method for leveling the flour.  Here are two example definitions:

"Shake" means stirring the flour in the flour container to loosen, repeatedly lifting the flour from the container into a measuring cup and shaking the cup until the flour completely settles in the cup, and leveling off the flour in the cup with a flat edge;

"Tamp" means stirring the flour in the flour container to loosen, repeatedly lifting the flour from the container into a measuring cup and tamping the cup of flour until the flour completely settles in the cup, and leveling off the flour in the cup with a flat edge;
Title: Re: My Pizza Experiment
Post by: Pete-zza on April 18, 2008, 06:27:08 PM
November,

"Textbook" means stirring the flour in the flour container to loosen, repeatedly lifting the flour from the flour container into a measuring cup, and leveling off the flour in the cup with a flat edge;

"Dip" means dipping a measuring cup into the flour container and leveling off the flour in the cup with a flat edge;

"Shake" means stirring the flour in the flour container to loosen, repeatedly lifting the flour from the flour container into a measuring cup and shaking the cup until the flour completely settles in the cup, and leveling off the flour in the cup with a flat edge;

"Tamp" means stirring the flour in the flour container to loosen, repeatedly lifting the flour from the flour container into a measuring cup and tamping the cup of flour until the flour completely settles in the cup, and leveling off the flour in the cup with a flat edge;

"Dip + Shake" means dipping a measuring cup into the flour container, shaking the cup, and levelling off the flour in the cup with a flat edge;

"Dip + Tamp" means dipping a measuring cup into the flour container, tamping the cup of flour until the flour completely settles in the cup, and leveling off the flour in the cup with a flat edge.

Peter
Title: Re: My Pizza Experiment
Post by: November on April 18, 2008, 06:52:01 PM
Peter, close enough.
Title: Re: My Pizza Experiment
Post by: Pete-zza on April 18, 2008, 08:04:09 PM
Based on the information given, I calculate the total hydration of the dough to about 63.0617%.  That's based on all the flours (measured with dip and tamp), water and egg moisture.

November,

Can you tell me how you calculated the percent hydration? When I did my calculation, I used the "Dip + Tamp" for the flour, the Bob's Red Mill data for the semolina and vital wheat gluten, and 87.575% water content for the egg white (large egg). I also used 10 ounces for the water, not the more precise value used in your tool. I came close to your number but not exact.

Peter
Title: Re: My Pizza Experiment
Post by: November on April 18, 2008, 08:13:31 PM
Can you tell me how you calculated the percent hydration? When I did my calculation, I used the "Dip + Tamp" for the flour, the Bob's Red Mill data for the semolina and vital wheat gluten, and 87.575% water content for the egg white (large egg). I also used 10 ounces for the water, not the more precise value used in your tool. I came close to your number but not exact.

Peter,

I used your numbers along with the 428.7379 value I gave previously for the flour.

428.7379 + 24.9 + 41.75 = 495.3879 g flour
283.5 + 28.9 = 312.4 g water
312.4 / 495.3879 = 0.630617
Title: Re: My Pizza Experiment
Post by: Pete-zza on April 18, 2008, 08:34:13 PM
November,

Thank you. When I entered 2 3/4 cups of flour (KABF) into the tool, I got a Dip + Tamp value of 427.8822 g.

Peter
Title: Re: My Pizza Experiment
Post by: November on April 18, 2008, 08:39:37 PM
When I entered 2 3/4 cups of flour (KABF) into the tool, I got a Dip + Tamp value of 427.8822 g.

Are you sure you are using the default depth of 5.69722?  428.7379 is all I have ever gotten since adding the feature.

EDIT: Image attachment.
Title: Re: My Pizza Experiment
Post by: Pete-zza on April 18, 2008, 10:38:52 PM
November,

I made a couple of errors. I entered "2.75" in the "cup" field, which I thought would produce the same results as using "2" and "1" in separate fields (as in your image), and I clicked on Dip + Shake by mistake.

Peter
Title: Re: My Pizza Experiment
Post by: November on April 19, 2008, 01:00:27 AM
Peter,

That was not a combination of errors I tested for when trying to determine what you might have done.  I actually typed in 2.75 in the cup field thinking you might have done that, but as you can verify for yourself, that number is too high if using Dip + Tamp, so I discounted it as a possible error.  It's nice you were able to retrace your steps.

- red.november
Title: Re: My Pizza Experiment
Post by: Pete-zza on April 19, 2008, 08:49:05 AM
For those who are interested, the updated dough formulation for Steve’s 11-ingredients recipe is as follows:

King Arthur Bread Flour (100%):
Water (66.1243%):
IDY (0.87821%):
Salt (1.30182%):
Olive Oil (3.14877%):
Sugar (1.85974%):
Bob's Red Mill Vital Wheat Gluten (5.80774%):
Carnation Dry Non-Fat Milk (3.01757%):
Lard (6.0643%):
Egg Whites (7.69701%):
Bob's Red Mill Semolina (9.73788%):
Total (205.63734%):
428.74 g  |  15.12 oz | 0.95 lbs
283.5 g  |  10 oz | 0.62 lbs
3.77 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.25 tsp | 0.42 tbsp
5.58 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
13.5 g | 0.48 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3 tsp | 1 tbsp
7.97 g | 0.28 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2 tsp | 0.67 tbsp
24.9 g | 0.88 oz | 0.05 lbs | 9 tsp | 3 tbsp
12.94 g | 0.46 oz | 0.03 lbs | 9 tsp | 3 tbsp
26 g | 0.92 oz | 0.06 lbs | 6 tsp | 2 tbsp
33 g | 1.16 oz | 0.07 lbs | 6.52 tsp | 2.17 tbsp
41.75 g | 1.47 oz | 0.09 lbs | 12 tsp | 4 tbsp
881.65 g | 31.1 oz | 1.94 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: The thickness factor = 0.1010102; the effective hydration is 63.0617%

The revised formulation for a 16” pizza is as follows:

Flour (100%):
Water (66.1243%):
IDY (0.87821%):
Salt (1.30182%):
Olive Oil (3.14877%):
Sugar (1.85974%):
Vital Wheat Gluten (5.80774%):
Dry Non-Fat Milk (3.01757%):
Lard (6.0643%):
Egg Whites (7.69701%):
Semolina (9.73788%):
Total (205.63734%):
280 g  |  9.88 oz | 0.62 lbs
185.15 g  |  6.53 oz | 0.41 lbs
2.46 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.82 tsp | 0.27 tbsp
3.65 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.65 tsp | 0.22 tbsp
8.82 g | 0.31 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.96 tsp | 0.65 tbsp
5.21 g | 0.18 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.31 tsp | 0.44 tbsp
16.26 g | 0.57 oz | 0.04 lbs | 5.88 tsp | 1.96 tbsp
8.45 g | 0.3 oz | 0.02 lbs | 5.88 tsp | 1.96 tbsp
16.98 g | 0.6 oz | 0.04 lbs | 3.92 tsp | 1.31 tbsp
21.55 g | 0.76 oz | 0.05 lbs | 4.26 tsp | 1.42 tbsp
27.27 g | 0.96 oz | 0.06 lbs | 7.84 tsp | 2.61 tbsp
575.78 g | 20.31 oz | 1.27 lbs | TF = 0.101012

The revised calculated protein content of the combined flours (KA bread flour, semolina and VWG) is approximately 15.8%. The revised thickness factor noted above is typical of that used for a NY “street” style pizza. That may well be the only similarity.

Peter
Title: Re: My Pizza Experiment
Post by: Pete-zza on April 20, 2008, 03:59:29 PM
Since I had all of the ingredients for Steve’s dough recipe on hand, I decided to give his recipe a try. I have never used 11 ingredients in a pizza dough before, so I was naturally curious to see what the results would be. I decided to make a 16” version, using the dough formulation I posted in my last reply. In my case, I substituted the Hodgston Mills brand of vital wheat gluten and adjusted the amount to use, which was slightly different from the dough formulation quantity for the Bob’s Red Mill brand. I also added a 0.5% bowl residue compensation but it turned out to be unnecessary. I used my Zojirushi bread maker and it apparently does not result in dough losses of any significance during the mixing and kneading processes.

I let my bread maker go through the full cycle for dough, which included a mix/knead period of about 20 minutes and a rise period of about 1 hour. The dough as it came out of the machine was at a temperature of 78 degrees F. I lightly oiled the dough ball, put it into a sealable Pyrex glass container, and put the container in the refrigerator for a bit over 24 hours. At every stage of the dough, from the time it came out of the bread maker to the point where the dressed pizza went into the oven, there was a lot of bubbling activity in the dough. In fact, the first photo below shows some of the initial bubbling activity in the dough as I shaped it into a round ball when it came out of the bread maker.

To bake the pizza, I used a combination of a 16” pizza screen and a pizza stone, which I had placed on the lowermost oven rack position and preheated for about an hour at around 500-550 degrees F. I used the combination of screen and stone only because my stone cannot itself handle a pizza larger than 14”.  The dough itself at the time of shaping and stretching, which took place after about 1 ˝ hours of rest at room temperature, was both extensible and elastic. It was soft and supple yet would spring back a bit as it was stretched out and released. I simply let the dough rest a bit and finished the stretching quite easily. The pizza was dressed with 6-in-1 tomato puree, straight out of the can; shredded low-moisture part-skim mozzarella cheese (a combination of Precious and Best Choice brands); sausage (two links’ worth of Johnsonville hot, slightly precooked); sliced pepperoni (Margarita brand); and thin slices of onion and red and green bell peppers. The pizza was baked at the second-from-the-top oven rack position until the rim of the dough started to rise and to turn light brown, about 4 minutes, and then for an additional 2 minutes on the stone to get increased bottom crust browning. When I saw that the bottom crust was browning too quickly, I moved the pizza back to the upper position for about another minute to finish browning the top of the crust.

The remaining photos show the finished pizza. The pizza, while tasty, was unlike any I have ever made before. There was very good oven spring with a lot of bubbles and there was very good color but the combination of textures was unlike anything I can recall. I fully expected that the crumb would be very soft and tender, because of all of the lard, the oil, the sugar and the dry milk powder, and indeed it was. I also expected to see more of a bread-like crumb. However, it did not have the open structure of voids that are found in a high-hydration dough. Rather, the crumb was fairly tight and, as noted above, very soft and tender. I also expected the bottom crust and the rim to be crispy. In this regard, I was especially interested in seeing what effect the egg whites would have, since egg whites are sometimes used to achieve increased crispiness in the crust. The usual recommended amount is around 2% of the weight of flour, which is considerably less than the 6.6% that I calculated for the combination of King Arthur bread flour, semolina and vital wheat gluten. So, I thought that the crust might be super crispy. Instead, I found the rim to have a thin crispy and crackly veneer, but the bottom crust was more of a tender cracker texture, with little resistance to the tooth. I also thought that using the vital wheat gluten and semolina would provide increased chewiness in the crust, which is why they are often used. However, I did not detect that quality to any significant degree. Rather, the softness and tenderness of the crumb seemed to predominate. I would say that this style of pizza, at least the way it was baked in my oven, will appeal most to those who prefer a very soft and tender crumb and a crispy rim.

I learned a lot from making the above pizza, and thank Steve for posting his recipe and giving me an opportunity to try it. It was easy to make, despite all of the ingredients, although I was sure to line them all up in the correct sequence specified by Steve before putting them into my bread pan.

Peter
Title: Re: My Pizza Experiment
Post by: November on April 20, 2008, 05:05:40 PM
Peter,

I wondered if curiosity was going to get the better of you.

It was soft and supple yet would spring back a bit as it was stretched out and released.

If I were to change something in the recipe, it would be the omission of egg yolk and inclusion of lard.  While a single yolk would not provide 26 g of fat, it would provide some fat, extra protein, and lecithin to help with the extensibility.  Of course adding any egg at all still causes me to think of this more as pastry roll dough.  Perhaps this formula should be taken on a test-spin as a dessert pizza dough.  I nominate Peter.

- red.november
Title: Re: My Pizza Experiment
Post by: Pete-zza on April 20, 2008, 07:46:14 PM
November,

As you can see, I didn't waste much time making the pizza. But, you are right. My curiosity did get the better of me. Making the dough was the only way for me to answer my own questions.

I agree with you that eliminating the lard from Steve's recipe would go a long way toward producing a less tender and soft crumb and crust, if that is desired. Doing that might also emphasize other characteristics of the crust, such as chewiness. As for the whole eggs you mentioned, they are rarely used in pizza doughs by professionals, but Donatos, a regional pizza chain in the Midwest, does use whole eggs in some form. That was one of the ingredients that was included in the Donatos dough clone recipe that I developed with member Wazatron at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5977.msg51213.html#msg51213. That recipe includes nine different ingredients, many of which are the same ingredients as used by Steve in his recipe. As it turns out, Donatos uses the same pizza base to make dessert pizzas. But whether the base is used to make a regular pizza or a dessert pizza, the character of the crust will be different from the usual pizza crust because it is based on a medium hydration dough (after accounting for the water in the eggs) and is prepared and baked differently, with a different appearance, as noted at http://www.donatos.com/menus_features/our_menu/pizzas.asp and http://www.donatos.com/menus_features/our_menu/desserts.asp.

Peter
Title: Re: My Pizza Experiment
Post by: November on April 20, 2008, 08:25:06 PM
Peter,

I was just suggesting the egg yolk addition to simplify the process, keep the yolk from going to waste, and for its emulsifying properties because of the stretching issue.  Further suggestions I would have would probably alter the formula beyond any shared identity with the original.

- red.november
Title: Re: My Pizza Experiment
Post by: Traver on April 22, 2008, 08:47:46 AM
Hi,

Glad you had some fun with my experiment.

Pete. From your description, it sounds like you duplicated my pizza pretty well.

I have tried playing with the mix some. Leaving out the egg white and/or some of the wheat gluten makes a harder crust with less rise and bubbles. I don't like it as much. Less lard has a similar effect for me. Adding the egg yoke doesn't change it much. I often buy "just whites" which are egg whites that come in a small milk carten.

Obviously it isn't a classic pizza dough and it can be used in other ways. It makes good grilled flat bread or you can put it in a bread pan and bake it like a loaf of bread.

One thing I like about it is that it doesn't take a lot of interactive time. Just put all the stuff in the machine, put the dough in the fridge and use it later.

-Steve
Title: Re: My Pizza Experiment
Post by: eric22 on April 23, 2008, 10:22:15 PM
Traver.

Return your camera and get a better one.
Title: Re: My Pizza Experiment
Post by: Pete-zza on April 24, 2008, 08:16:21 AM
Traver.

Return your camera and get a better one.

eric22,

I think you will find that most of our members are only casual or occasional pizza makers and, as such, are unlikely to buy or replace their cameras simply to post a few photos of their pizzas on this forum. Only those chronically addicted to pizza are likely to do that--usually after they have already spent a lot of money just to get all of the gear needed to make quality pizzas to begin with. I am happy to see any posts from members, with or without photos, that contribute to our knowledge about pizza.

Peter
Title: Re: My Pizza Experiment
Post by: 2stone on April 24, 2008, 10:02:28 AM
Peter, that is funny

I guess you may be right..............quite a diagnosis!!
Only those chronically addicted to pizza are likely to do that.
Wow...........never thought of it in those terms.
Title: Re: My Pizza Experiment
Post by: eric22 on April 25, 2008, 04:12:06 AM
eric22,

I think you will find that most of our members are only casual or occasional pizza makers and, as such, are unlikely to buy or replace their cameras simply to post a few photos of their pizzas on this forum. Only those chronically addicted to pizza are likely to do that--usually after they have already spent a lot of money just to get all of the gear needed to make quality pizzas to begin with. I am happy to see any posts from members, with or without photos, that contribute to our knowledge about pizza.

Peter

I like big photos and  those cut crusts showing the bubbles. 
Title: Re: My Pizza Experiment
Post by: thomasz on May 25, 2008, 09:48:00 PM
 Thank for your experiences, I hope I will learn something.