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Author Topic: Butter in the PAN of Grandma's Style Pie  (Read 1276 times)

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Offline PizzaManic

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Butter in the PAN of Grandma's Style Pie
« on: June 19, 2017, 03:25:29 AM »
Hey Guys

I made a dough inspired by HarryHaller73 found here https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=46929.msg470772#msg470772

As usual, planning is never on my side and the dough never got into the pan at the time I planned to use it which was supposed to be 24hrs later.
Anyways, it still seems to be holding up well in my fridge and now will be used tomorrow for dinner which will result in a 72hr dough.

I've never had very pleasant results with Sunflower oil which is the most widely used oil here - this time I omitted it alltogether even in the dough which has butter for fat.

I'm thinking of using butter in the pan as well - will this work or will it burn and leave an unpleasant taste on the PIZZA?
What if I mix it with some margarine which has a much higher smoke point?

Thanks
Mo
Regards Mo

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Butter in the PAN of Grandma's Style Pie
« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2017, 11:25:44 AM »
Use clarified butter in the pan, or Butter Flavored Crisco (better than the real thing).
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline PizzaManic

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Re: Butter in the PAN of Grandma's Style Pie
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2017, 03:14:00 AM »
Hi Tom

I didn't have any clarified butter so ended up mixing a High Fat Margarine with Butter then coated my pan with it.

I should note that this dough worked very well so far. I took it out the fridge and rolled it whilst it was still very cold. It opened up without any difficulty. It wasn't over extensible and needed a little "Elbow Grease" but I found the "Snap Back" was minimal.

In fact, I rolled it out first on my counter then lifted it on to the Pan. Normally when I follow this method, I always roll out slightly larger than my pan size because I found that after lifting it, it snaps back a bit and doesn't extend to the ends of the pan. This time, it ended up going in to the pan and was larger than the pan - It didn't want to snap back so I had to manually push back the edges of the dough until it was now flush against the edges of the pan.

I don't want to jinx things but I'm optimistic this pie will turn out well and lead to some new findings in my own quest.

Take Care
Mo
Regards Mo

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Butter in the PAN of Grandma's Style Pie
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2017, 12:06:14 PM »
Mo;
Both butter and margarine are the same fat content (approximately 20% water and 80% fat) so a blend of margarine and butter will have the same fat content of either one alone. If you want to make your own clarified butter just "nuke" some butter until melted and you will see a particulate floating on top of the butter oil, skim this off or decant and you're left with clarified butter, just the thing for dipping your lobster tail into! :) :).
Another trick that I use occasionally if the dough has a bit more memory that I like is to refrigerate the pan after buttering it, this seems to help the butter hold the dough in place a little longer allowing the dough to relax.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline PizzaManic

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Re: Butter in the PAN of Grandma's Style Pie
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2017, 03:15:29 AM »
Thanks Tom - will keep that in mind for future.

Finally got down to baking this pie Yesterday but not without it being eventful.
I got home a tad bit earlier from work since we had a dinner invite for a late night supper but needed something to snack on as I wouldn't have made it to dinner on my empty tummy. Pizza sounded perfect. Time was short so I asked the misses to help me prep my toppings and preheat the oven so I could get on with the baking as soon as I got home. Everything was ready to go - the oven needed a few more minutes to reach temp and I was just about to top the pizza when POOOOF!!!!  :o :o :o - the lights go out. I check the main board and realized it's the entire area that's out. The misses wasn't very happy and so was I.

Any ways, thankfully 30 mins later it came back on and I quickly preheated the oven again. Topped the pie and put it in to bake directly on my stone which was now at around 450F. The oven rack was set to the middle of the oven and backed the pie for 12 minutes.

Just as it came out the oven, we had to leave but not without grabbing a slice to try it out fresh from the oven. I have to say, the pizza was absolutely perfect. The mix of Butter/Margarine created a beautiful undercrust - just a touch of a fried texture with a lovely crisp to it. The crumb was super super light. I topped half the pie with whipped cream infused with some herbs, salt, pepper and a bit of chilli flakes - this was on recomendation by CaptBob - man oh man was it good - too delicious  :drool:.

Now on to the minor issues I had with the rushed bake perhaps being the underlying cause.

1. The pie released easily from the pan but as I slid my spatula underneath, it somehow tore into the under of the pie which cause a little bit of mayhem trying to release it from the pan. Somehow I managed to get it out without destroying my hard work completely.

2. I know I said the pie was perfect but will we ever be satisfied - It's sort of an addiction to keep tinkering with something that aint broke but I can't help myself. The crumb was absolutely light like I said - extremely tender to the bite - you could chew it without teeth if that sounds like a good description. My question is how would I add in a little bit of chew to my pie for my next attempt.

3. I went a bit heavy with the toppings especially the cheese. After baking, I noticed a gum line just below the sauce. How I can confirm it is a gum line is I pinched of a piece of the pie at this point and between my fingers, it was doughy and sticky. I just can't figure out how did this happen. The undercrust was just perfect and another minute or 2 would have rendered it burn I assume. The crumb was baked perfectly too. Anyone got some suggestions?

4. Some parts of the pie bubbled up basically with no contact to the pan and no crumb structure either - what causes this?

Sorry no pics at the moment - I have the entire pie sitting in my fridge at the moment - hopefully for supper tonight. I will try and grab a few shots later and put it up tomorrow.

Thanks
Mo
Regards Mo

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Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Butter in the PAN of Grandma's Style Pie
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2017, 10:00:08 AM »
Mo;
To add "chew" to your pizza replace 25% of the regular flour with durum semolina flour (it will take more water so be prepared to increase the dough absorption (and it absorbs water SLOWER so don't be fooled by a slightly tacky dough after mixing).
To test for a gum line just cut a slice from the pizza, flip it over (bottom side up) and carefully cut the slice in hale lengthwise using a VERY SHARP SERRATED knife (use light pressure cutting the crust) as soon as the crust is cut fold the crust in half so the two topped sides are in contact with each other. If you have a gum line you will recognize it as a gray/wet looking area under the sauce 1/8-inch thick or more. To confirm, take another slice and grasping it by the rim, pull/tear it apart as if pulling a slice of bread apart. As the crust cleaves look for the crumb to form a short film as it pulls apart (you want it to tear/cleave cleanly). If it "feathers" (that's what we call that film or membrane) you have a gum line.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline PizzaManic

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Re: Butter in the PAN of Grandma's Style Pie
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2017, 06:08:40 AM »
Hi Tom

Will give the Semolina a try.

Here are some pics of the pie. Sorry for the poor quality - Night Time, Cell phone Cam and a Cold pie is the cause  :-D

Notice the first 2 pics show clearly the bubble I mentioned in a previous post - it pops right up leaving it disconnected from the pan completely and a pale looking undercrust. Will docking the dough help with this kind of an issue?

Even after 2 days in the fridge, the reheated slices were still good - soft and light. I was particularly happy with the taste - that offending oil taste that I've always mentioned before was completely absent so the addition of butter in the dough and using butter in the pan has proved successful for my purposes.

With regards to the "Gum line", I'm convince I did have a Gum Line since I did the test you mention and pulled a piece from the rim - instead of an open airy structure, I found a sticky piece of dough tore of - between my tumb and forefinger, it was very sticky to the touch. What could have contributed to the "Gum Line"

Thanks
« Last Edit: June 23, 2017, 09:33:40 AM by PizzaManic »
Regards Mo

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Butter in the PAN of Grandma's Style Pie
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2017, 10:22:28 AM »
I wrote a very detailed article on what causes the "dreaded" gum line in PMQ Magazine <www.pmq.com>. You might see if you can access it through my article (In Lehmann's Terms) archives.
Here are the main things responsible for a gum line:
Baked too fast (oven too hot).
Too much sauce.
Insufficient yeast in dough formula.
Dough too hot resulting in reduction of yeast level to control fermentation.
Excessive dough fermentation.
Dough collapse, poor oven spring.
Bright colored/silver pan resulting in insufficient bake.

These are the most common causes.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Butter in the PAN of Grandma's Style Pie
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2017, 04:47:56 PM »
I believe that this is the article that Tom has in mind:

http://www.pmq.com/September-October-2003/In-Lehmanns-Terms/

Peter

Offline PizzaManic

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Re: Butter in the PAN of Grandma's Style Pie
« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2017, 08:33:09 AM »
Hey Guys

I received a request to make up a couple pies for a Family Friend - they are going on Holiday and wish to take them along.

I'm planning on Par Baking them then topping it before freezing it.

The formula I wish to use is below

Flour (85%):
Semolina (15%):
Water (60%):
IDY (0.3%):
Salt (2%):
Sugar (1%):
Butter/Margarine (10%):
Total (173.3%):
180.85 g
31.91 g
127.66 g  |  4.5 oz | 0.28 lbs
0.64 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.21 tsp | 0.07 tbsp
4.26 g | 0.15 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.89 tsp | 0.3 tbsp
2.13 g | 0.08 oz | 0 lbs | 0.53 tsp | 0.18 tbsp
21.28 g | 0.75 oz | 0.05 lbs | 4.5 tsp | 1.5 tbsp
368.73 g | 13.01 oz | 0.81 lbs | TF = 0.115

As per Toms advice from my last attempt, I wasn't brave enough to go 25% Semolina so I went with 15% and bumped up the Hydration by 2%.

I'm anticipating one hurdle and that's the Par Baked Crust leaves excessive Air Bubbles due to no toppings. What can I do to counter this?

Any other suggestions or cautions are always welcome  :)

Mo
« Last Edit: July 28, 2017, 08:41:15 AM by PizzaManic »
Regards Mo

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Offline PizzaManic

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Re: Butter in the PAN of Grandma's Style Pie
« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2017, 10:14:36 AM »
Another question popped to mind - what's the preferred method of baking a Frozen Pie.

1. Direct from Frozen?
2. Thaw overnight in Fridge then bake?
3. Thaw at room temp then bake?
Regards Mo

Offline vtsteve

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Re: Butter in the PAN of Grandma's Style Pie
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2017, 12:43:55 AM »
2. Thaw overnight in Fridge then bake?

That's how I would go -- I did some pre-bakes for a party, but just held them in the fridge. To reheat, I gave them about 4 minutes at 450F, directly on the stone (cheese wasn't to the edge) to crisp up the bottom and melt the cheese.
In grams we trust.
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Offline PizzaManic

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Re: Butter in the PAN of Grandma's Style Pie
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2017, 03:24:18 AM »
Thanks Steve - I'll include that in my instructions to bake when handing over the pies.

Regards Mo

Offline PizzaManic

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Re: Butter in the PAN of Grandma's Style Pie
« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2017, 03:17:07 AM »
Hey Guys

SO this last attempt didnt go down very well. I made my dough on on Friday evening around 9PM. The dough turned out perfect at first touch and sight - so soft and supple, you actually wanna play with it  :-D

I portioned them and balled each portion which was then pit into the drawer compartment of my fridge. During the course of the CF, I kept checking it but found it was very slow on the yeast activity. Just by seeing the tiny little bubbles that create, you couldn't see many. I took it out yesterday morning and left it on the counter to speed up fermentation. I found that the dough didn't grow as much but it began to soften out and became a tad bit difficult to handle - almost like signs of over-fermentation but no smell of it.

I dumped it back in the fridge till 8pm yesterday then removed it and heated my oven whilst I rolled them out into the pans. I must say, I made this dough the second time and boy or boy is it easy to roll. So extensible with just the right amount of elasticity - I'm really curious to know what contributes to this.

None the less, I popped the first one into my 470f oven according to my dial but measuring the stone showed a temp of 540. I baked them for about 4 minutes till spots started to appear at the bottom.

Upon removing from the oven and closer inspection, I found the pizza to be dense and doughy yet it was baked through. The taste in it as well wasn't my usual flavour I'm use to - almost like a soapy taste it had. I had this experience once before and I can only attribute it to one thing - BAD IDY

I bake 4 out of the 5 I had made and all of them hardly rose - the puffy light airy crumb I'm used to was missing completely. Pressing on the rim didn't represent any spring whatsoever. Man was I frustrated but a failure is a good learning curb. My IDY was in freezer and it probably wasn't very good so there was just a tiny bit of activity but that was it.

Anyways, I quickly whipped up another batch of dough with a fresh pack of IDY and looking at it this morning - it seems good so far.

My question is....
1. How do you tell whether IDY is still good or not before using it?
2. I remember seeing a post of a tube in which the dough it placed and this helps monitor the rising of the dough - where can I get this and how does it work? I'm thinking when I make a batch of dough, I will make a little extra which I will place in to that contraption to monitor the rising of it.
3. What are the signs of under-fermented dough?

Hope my next attempt goes off better than the last.

Take care
Mo
Regards Mo

Offline the1mu

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Re: Butter in the PAN of Grandma's Style Pie
« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2017, 10:50:14 AM »
You can stir some IDY into warm water with sugar and wait ten minutes to see if it bubbles, just like ADY.

Regarding the "tube", it most likely won't work for you as you employ a CF. the mass of the dough you'd place in a puvilometer  (sp?) is going to be significantly smaller than your other dough balls and therefore will cool and warm at different rates than your other dough, therefore it will not give you an accurate picture of how the fermentation is going.

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Offline PizzaManic

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Re: Butter in the PAN of Grandma's Style Pie
« Reply #15 on: August 07, 2017, 12:12:48 PM »
Thanks the1mu. I've got my fingers crossed for this next batch. I've used the method pete-zza showed me to place poppy seeds 1" apart but we use mm as a measure here so I placed them 25mm apart. I didnt have poppy seeds so the next smallest darkest object I could find that won't impart any offending flavour is linseed.

Today I checked it after 19hrs at 50f and it's around 28mm apart so looking good so far. I plan to portion and ball the dough tomorrow and bake on Wednesday - dough will remain in balls for about 12hrs.

I can see the activity already on the dough with tiny bubbles showing all over but not yet the extensive activity that I'm used to seeing. I'm thinking of bringing the bulk dough out at room temp to reach 80f tonight then CF again till tomorrow hopefully to increase activity of the IDY - is that a good idea?
Regards Mo

Offline PizzaManic

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Re: Butter in the PAN of Grandma's Style Pie
« Reply #16 on: August 10, 2017, 03:51:59 AM »
Well my worst fear was realized yet again. My second attempt wasn't any better than the first and this confirmed that the batch of IDY I have is not very powerful. Although I opened a new package because my yeast comes in small packs of 10g each, I suspect that all of the packs in that box have lost their leavening agent power.

The dough was left in the fridge for exactly 48 hours and the poppy seeds only moved to just under 30mm apart which by poor maths showed a 70% increase fermentation. I balled the dough at this stage from the bulk dough and placed it back in the fridge for a further 12 hours. I used the poppy seed trick again and found that by the time I was ready to use it, the seeds moved apart by only 28mm from the 25mm which I set it at. I took the dough out to warm up for 2 to 3 hours and then rolled out the first pizza. I must say, the dough is exceptionally lovely to work with but I noticed that it lacked that yeasty aroma that I'm used to after 48hr CF. It was pushed in to the pan then left for another 2 hours to rise.

After the 2 hours, i noticed that the dough didn't have that gassy look and signs of much rise. I none the less went on to bake for a total of 5 minutes at 260c. I noticed that instead of the dough rising uniformly, certain spots rose and certain spots remained flat. Some places ended up wit larger bubbles but not the kind of rise I have seen in this dough the first time I made it.

The only real change I made from making this the first time to now is addition of Semolina - not sure if that can be a culprit for my problems - highly doubt it.

I'm planning another attempt by the weekend and thinking of going with 3 times the yeast amount to counter the low strength of the IDY I have.

2 question i I have
1. If a dough grows to double it's size, does that mean it's fermented properly or are there other characteristics one should look out for?
2. Will doubling or tripling the IDY cause any other effects over?

I tell you, the most frustrating thing is when you anticipate this mouth watering pie and you end up with mediocre  >:(
Regards Mo

Offline PizzaManic

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Re: Butter in the PAN of Grandma's Style Pie
« Reply #17 on: August 11, 2017, 02:48:03 AM »
Hey Guys

Just bumping this topic up again. Yesterday at my local supermarket, there was bread dough for sale in their fridge section - it was so blown that I thought the packet would explode. I took note of a few characteristic.

The dough was puffy with large holes. Maybe it was a little over fermented but it looked light and airy. This further led me to believe that my dough was far from fermented - I think it could do with a couple more days in the fridge.

I'm braving another attempt this weekend and going to pose the question again - will increasing the IDY have a negative effect on the final outcome of the dough since my IDY is very weak? I'm thinking maybe 3X the amount I normally use for a 2 Day Fermentation?

Thanks
Regards Mo

Offline the1mu

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Re: Butter in the PAN of Grandma's Style Pie
« Reply #18 on: August 11, 2017, 05:48:01 PM »
Why not just pick up a new patch of IDY?

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