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Offline parallei

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Bucky Doughs
« on: August 11, 2017, 06:19:53 PM »
Tom you've stated, more than once:

"Over fermented dough tends to become "bucky" or very elastic especially when trying to open it into a skin, and a sure tip off that the dough is over fermented is that this condition just keeps getting worse the longer you allow the dough to rest before opening it into skins."

I've had the exact opposite experience, albeit in a home baking environment. My experience has been that over fermented doughs (pizza and breads) seem to loose any strength (gluten degradation, or whatever).  This seems to occur with starter based or commercial based doughs.

Like myself, most folks here are home bakers and most use commercial yeasts.  I'd like to perform a home based experiment that would settle this in my mind.

What "experiments" would you suggest that I perform with an IDY based dough to prove your elastic/bucky experience to myself.

This is asked with a completely open mind!

Thanks

Paul
 


Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Bucky Doughs
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2017, 10:09:49 PM »
Paul;
The buckiness is a precursor to the break down of the dough.
To see it yourself, just make a dough with a normal amount of instant dry yeast (0.4%) and 4% sugar, then allow it to ferment at room temperature the progression will be soft and extensible, bucky and elastic, then break down.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline parallei

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Re: Bucky Doughs
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2017, 11:39:29 PM »
0.4% IDY at room temp would probably be ready in 4 or 5 hours or so.  I'm game.  What time frame would you suggest for testing the balls after say 4 hours?

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Bucky Doughs
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2017, 01:28:01 AM »
It will all depend upon the protein content of the flour as well as the finished dough temperature, also, I don't think you will find many here who would agree that 4 to 5-hours at room temperature would constitute an over fermented dough, but if the protein content of the flour is in the 11.8 to 12.4% range you might be on the cusp of it.
A good procedure would be to make about 10 dough balls all from the same dough and allow them to ferment side by side and then begin opening them at 4-hours and then at 30-minute intervals or you could do 60-minute intervals too but in any case you will need to have enough dough balls to cover whatever time is needed to over ferment the dough. Do not employ high dough temps (90F and more) to speed up fermentation since the temperature impact upon the protein will skew the results.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline norma427

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Re: Bucky Doughs
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2017, 08:05:16 AM »
Paul and Tom,

This thread interests me.  I have had bucky doughs and can't figure out why sometimes.  Just last Tuesday I had 3 “bucky” dough balls, when opening into skins.  They were from different batches of dough.  They all were fermented almost to the same degree of fermentation, before opening.  When opening them did chuck one of them into the trash.  :-D The other two took time and finally they opened okay.  All of the other dough balls from different batches opened fine.  Don't think they were overfermented because they didn't look that way. 

Norma

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Offline Jersey Pie Boy

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Re: Bucky Doughs
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2017, 11:07:08 AM »
Tom, Paul, Norma,


I'm very interested too,,,Paul, especially since you're opening post quotes Tom's reply to my question just a thread or two down...Opening Harder than Expected..I'm missing a piece of  knowledge here because my experience has been very similar to yours and Norma's...the balls didn't seem overferemted, and when opened, didn't show other signs of over-fermentation that I recognized.


And like Paul, when I have a dough that.s clearly gone a little too far, overly-extensible has been the issue. When I made my 16 day CF dough a week or so ago, obviously it was over-fermented, and was very  etxensible but not unmanageable  and only developed a tiny easily patched hole. So that I get.


Also, Tom noted that in the quote  the opening would get harder thye longer the ball was held...In the case of the bake I  posted about last week, the second ball, which was on the counter at least 30 or 40 minutes longer was actually less of a problem to open...But it did take quite a while,. Thought I'd need to fix a snack while I waited   :-D


But the overly-elastic part must be a lot trickier,  so thanks for this thread.

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Bucky Doughs
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2017, 01:43:48 PM »
Norma;
Can you relate the finished dough temperature to those which were bucky and those which were not? If fermentation is being taken close to maximum the difference of only a few degrees can push it into the bucky stage. Like I said before, it is a precursor to what we would recognize as over fermented so the dough balls wouldn't necessarily look over fermented. Welcome to the wonderful world of fermentation.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline parallei

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Re: Bucky Doughs
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2017, 05:16:05 PM »
Paul;
The buckiness is a precursor to the break down of the dough.
To see it yourself, just make a dough with a normal amount of instant dry yeast (0.4%) and 4% sugar, then allow it to ferment at room temperature the progression will be soft and extensible, bucky and elastic, then break down.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Tom,

I've decided to just use a typical dough someone might make at home, no 4% sugar.  More of a Lehmann type deal. ;D

It will all depend upon the protein content of the flour as well as the finished dough temperature, also, I don't think you will find many here who would agree that 4 to 5-hours at room temperature would constitute an over fermented dough, but if the protein content of the flour is in the 11.8 to 12.4% range you might be on the cusp of it.
A good procedure would be to make about 10 dough balls all from the same dough and allow them to ferment side by side and then begin opening them at 4-hours and then at 30-minute intervals or you could do 60-minute intervals too but in any case you will need to have enough dough balls to cover whatever time is needed to over ferment the dough. Do not employ high dough temps (90F and more) to speed up fermentation since the temperature impact upon the protein will skew the results.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

I''ll do 10 dough balls.  Balls will be placed in bread bags.  I'm going to use 100% Gold Medal Bread Flour, 61% HR, 1% light olive oil, 2% Salt, 1% sugar, and 0.4% IDY.  I'll do 12-inch pies with a TF of 0.09. 

As I sort of have a life, I'm going to do a 24 hour CF, remove them all from the fridge and let them rest for 2 hours.  After 2 hours, I'll open one and the continue on an hourly basis.  All temperatures, from finished dough temp to the individual hourly ball temps will be recorded.  I'll take photo's.

Obviously, I will only be able to record my own imperssions concerning the amount of extensibility/elasticity/ease of handling.  You've probably opened tens of thousands skins as opposed to my hundreds.  So keep that in mind!

I think the work flow I've outlined pretty much reflects what a home baker might do.  Please let me know if you have any suggestions.  I'll be making dough at 6 a.m. tomorrow!!!

If nothing else, this exercise will let me try my Bosch mixer for the first time with a decent amount of dough!  It works fine on smaller weights....

Offline Jersey Pie Boy

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Re: Bucky Doughs
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2017, 07:03:03 PM »
This is great, Paul...thanks for spending your time and energy on this.. So pizza for breakfast, lunch and dinner, right?  :-D

Offline parallei

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Re: Bucky Doughs
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2017, 08:38:11 PM »
This is great, Paul...thanks for spending your time and energy on this.. So pizza for breakfast, lunch and dinner, right?  :-D

We'll see!

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Offline norma427

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Re: Bucky Doughs
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2017, 10:03:29 PM »
Norma;
Can you relate the finished dough temperature to those which were bucky and those which were not? If fermentation is being taken close to maximum the difference of only a few degrees can push it into the bucky stage. Like I said before, it is a precursor to what we would recognize as over fermented so the dough balls wouldn't necessarily look over fermented. Welcome to the wonderful world of fermentation.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Tom,

The final dough temperatures were within a few degrees of all the batches of doughs.  Usually the final dough temperatures are about 72-76 degrees F.  What I don't understand is why most of all of the doughs opened normally, even the ones that were very hot right out of the heating cabinet.  Some of those dough balls looked like they might be overfermented, but when opening opened really nice. 

I still don't understand the wonderful world of fermentation.  :(  :-D

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Bucky Doughs
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2017, 10:04:47 PM »
Tom,

I've decided to just use a typical dough someone might make at home, no 4% sugar.  More of a Lehmann type deal. ;D

I''ll do 10 dough balls.  Balls will be placed in bread bags.  I'm going to use 100% Gold Medal Bread Flour, 61% HR, 1% light olive oil, 2% Salt, 1% sugar, and 0.4% IDY.  I'll do 12-inch pies with a TF of 0.09. 

As I sort of have a life, I'm going to do a 24 hour CF, remove them all from the fridge and let them rest for 2 hours.  After 2 hours, I'll open one and the continue on an hourly basis.  All temperatures, from finished dough temp to the individual hourly ball temps will be recorded.  I'll take photo's.

Obviously, I will only be able to record my own imperssions concerning the amount of extensibility/elasticity/ease of handling.  You've probably opened tens of thousands skins as opposed to my hundreds.  So keep that in mind!

I think the work flow I've outlined pretty much reflects what a home baker might do.  Please let me know if you have any suggestions.  I'll be making dough at 6 a.m. tomorrow!!!

If nothing else, this exercise will let me try my Bosch mixer for the first time with a decent amount of dough!  It works fine on smaller weights....

Paul,

Good luck!  Interested to see your results.

Norma

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Bucky Doughs
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2017, 10:29:06 PM »
Paul;
One suggestion.....get a good nights sleep. :)

Norma;
If a dough ball looks lose (over fermented?) do you think it might have been due to a difference in how tight the dough was rounded during the balling of the dough? A dough ball that is not rounded as tight as the others will appear to be more lose after a fermentation period and in fact it will open pretty easily too.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline norma427

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Re: Bucky Doughs
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2017, 11:00:05 PM »


Norma;
If a dough ball looks lose (over fermented?) do you think it might have been due to a difference in how tight the dough was rounded during the balling of the dough? A dough ball that is not rounded as tight as the others will appear to be more lose after a fermentation period and in fact it will open pretty easily too.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Tom,

You might be right about how tight the dough was rounded during balling of the doughs.  Since my surgery I can't lift heavy things like 50 lb. bags of flour anymore.  Either have my granddaughter or her boyfriend help me lift bags of flour and get the doughs out of the mixer, and then I scale the doughs, weight out ingredients for the next batch, but either my granddaughter or her boyfriend do all of the balling.  Could just the difference in balling methods make that much difference in how doughs open?  I thought about fermentation would get things straightened out okay, if there was a difference in balling.

If dough balls look overfermented just can use the a dough mold something like at http://www.wasserstrom.com/restaurant-supplies-equipment/custom-aluminum-pizza-dough-mold-for-sbarro--11-119860   I got better at using a dough mold for overfermented doughs, but you can see what was used at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=37997.msg380247#msg380247 back in 2015.

Norma

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Bucky Doughs
« Reply #14 on: August 13, 2017, 12:24:09 AM »
Norma;
In one word...ABSOLUTELY. It took us weeks to train a new technician in how to round the dough balls, not so they were correct, but instead so they were like, and of like tightness to the dough balls made by the other techs. Very high on my wish list for all those years was a small bench top dough rounder that would always round the dough in the same manner and of like tightness thus removing one of our greater variables. Now we do have rounders like this....lota good they do me now! :)
Whenever possible, when we would have a project extending over weeks or months, we would assign the project to a technician who would be there to do all of the dough rounding for the duration of the project, at least this gave us a level of consistency in the tightness of our dough balls. I've always said that it really doesn't matter if the dough balls are rounded tight or lose, just so long as they are consistent...that's what counts. With that said, a tight dough ball will typically require more time before it is ready to be opened (something to keep in mind when making an emergency dough, in this case a loose dough ball is desirable). Tight dough balls will hold their shape better when placed into dough boxes preventing them from all flowing together to make one dough mass in the box. Loose dough balls will always flow out more reducing the number of dough balls which can be placed into a box (they need greater spacing to accommodate their increased flow/spread over time). When re-rounding or rounding scrap dough I always like to use a loose round as it will be ready to use sooner.
This is just one of the things that makes judging properly fermented dough and over fermented dough so difficult unless one has the experience to know to see how the dough was rounded before passing judgement...as you well know, there are different fixes for over fermentation v/s a loosely rounded dough ball.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

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Offline norma427

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Re: Bucky Doughs
« Reply #15 on: August 13, 2017, 06:18:09 AM »
Norma;
In one word...ABSOLUTELY. It took us weeks to train a new technician in how to round the dough balls, not so they were correct, but instead so they were like, and of like tightness to the dough balls made by the other techs. Very high on my wish list for all those years was a small bench top dough rounder that would always round the dough in the same manner and of like tightness thus removing one of our greater variables. Now we do have rounders like this....lota good they do me now! :)
Whenever possible, when we would have a project extending over weeks or months, we would assign the project to a technician who would be there to do all of the dough rounding for the duration of the project, at least this gave us a level of consistency in the tightness of our dough balls. I've always said that it really doesn't matter if the dough balls are rounded tight or lose, just so long as they are consistent...that's what counts. With that said, a tight dough ball will typically require more time before it is ready to be opened (something to keep in mind when making an emergency dough, in this case a loose dough ball is desirable). Tight dough balls will hold their shape better when placed into dough boxes preventing them from all flowing together to make one dough mass in the box. Loose dough balls will always flow out more reducing the number of dough balls which can be placed into a box (they need greater spacing to accommodate their increased flow/spread over time). When re-rounding or rounding scrap dough I always like to use a loose round as it will be ready to use sooner.
This is just one of the things that makes judging properly fermented dough and over fermented dough so difficult unless one has the experience to know to see how the dough was rounded before passing judgement...as you well know, there are different fixes for over fermentation v/s a loosely rounded dough ball.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Tom,

Thanks for your explanations about training new technicians and how one technician to another can make a difference in how the doughs open.  I can see very high on your wish list was a small bench top dough rounder so that the dough would always round the same.   ;D Never really thought about the differences in how someone balls the dough.  I did think about differences though when using stretch, fold and rest techniques when making some doughs.  Always wondered how many should be done and if they were done correctly to have good doughs. 

Can understand that a tight dough can take more time before it is ready to be opened. 

Interesting that the things you mentioned is just one of the things that makes judging properly fermented dough and over fermented dough so difficult. 

No wonder you are the Dough Doctor!  :chef: :pizza:

Norma

Offline parallei

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Re: Bucky Doughs
« Reply #16 on: August 13, 2017, 09:23:05 AM »
It took me longer than I thought it would this a.m.!

The finished temp of the 10 balls was 76F when they went into the fridge at 7.a.m.  The Bosch had no problem with 6 lbs. of dough.

Time for another cup go Joe.....

Offline Rolls

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Re: Bucky Doughs
« Reply #17 on: August 13, 2017, 09:44:26 AM »
Buckminster Fuller would be proud 8).


Rolls

Offline parallei

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Re: Bucky Doughs
« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2017, 05:03:52 PM »
Buckminster Fuller would be proud 8).
Rolls

Not sure about that.  I received an email from the beyond this morning from old Bucky.  He stated that even though the dough ball was quite handsome, it would never support itself.  He implied, quite unjustly, that I should have been more attentive during my Statics and Structural Analysis classes.   :o
« Last Edit: August 13, 2017, 05:36:53 PM by parallei »

Offline parallei

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Re: Bucky Doughs
« Reply #19 on: August 14, 2017, 09:19:35 PM »
O.K.  My idea was to test, in the home environment, if dough CF balls get "bucky" (overly elastic) at some point during the fermentation cycle.  As noted above, I made a 24 hour, cold ferment Lehmann type dough.  The balls sat at room temp. for 2 hours before the first ball was opened.

The short answer is no.  None of the balls exhibited excessive elasticity.  I did not experience any Bucky-ness.  That said, this was in a non-commercial environment. 

On the other hand I doubt it took me, as an amateur, more than 50 seconds to open each skin.

If someone disagrees, please try to replicate my work.......otherwise...... 

I will not bore you with the details of each the ten balls I tested.  Briefly, after 2 hours out of the fridge the first ball was opened, then another ball was opened every hour after.

The first photos bellow show ball #1 after 2 hours at room temp.  Ball temp was 61F.  My notes say opened fine with the old totaly off the bench knuckle hang.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2017, 10:09:52 PM by parallei »

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