canadave's NY Style recipe

[RockyMarciano]

I tried your recipe with failure, I did a 24 hour rise in the fridge and like 30 minutes outside, it didn't really proof at all.  With the lehmann recipe it, i did 24 hour in the fridge and an hour out and it was hugely proofed.  Anyways I didn't have time to  proof your dough properly cos I was in a hurry, so it yeah, turned out bad.  The dough was pretty tough/hard (not difficulty, texture).  It was flat, sorta uncooked, monster bubbles, i mean im sure your recipe is good, its just the fact that the dough wasn't proofed.  And I didn't measure the water temp this time, so that couldve been a factor too.  Also when i was kneeding the dough, it started to form sort of layers, sorta.

[RockyMarciano]

What really happened, I figured out was I didn't hydrate the yeast properly, ill give your recipe another shot, though it is a  too heavy  for a 16" pizza, it would make a real good 18"

[Pete-zza]

Rocky,

If you go to Reply#39 in this thread you will see a "thin" 16-inch Canadave NY version I made but using a thickness factor of 0.105 to come closer to the "thin" NY style. The baker's percents were the same as I originally derived for Canadave's recipe. If you want to see my attempt at Canadave's original NY style recipe using his thickness factor (which I calculated to be over 0.13), see Reply #33. I thought both pizzas were very good.

I assumed that you must have made a mistake somewhere when you didn't get the results you were looking for when you tried Canadave's recipe. I think the recipe is a good one and well worth another try. It will be different from the Lehmann NY style in that it will have a softer and more tender crust and crumb, with a bit of sweetness. Unless you go with the "thin" version, it will also be quite a bit heavier. After looking at a lot of recipes for NY style doughs, and without the benefit of having lived in NY city or eaten a lot of NY pies, I have come to the conclusion that there must be two NY styles, a thick one and a thin one. Canadave both lived in NYC and ate a lot of NY pies, so he knows what he is talking about when it comes to NY pizzas.

Peter

[tdeane]

Not at all, Peter...feel free.  But of course (to any such members who might read this) it's a well-known fact that anything smaller than 16 inches isn't a *real* NY pizza hehe

Thanks for the complimentary review.  It took me quite a while to put together, so I hope it's of some use.

Cheers,
Dave

p.s. It's quite possible I may continue to update the page, so I encourage interested readers to check back (I'll put a "last updated" date on the page)...in particular, I'd like to get some pictures posted once I get my new digital camera within the next couple of weeks (my old camera broke not too long ago).

Actually, in my seven years living in New York I never had a 16 inch pizza(or saw one), but I did see quite a few 14 inch pizzas. At least, I think they were 14 inch( I didn't actually measure them). But, many pizzerias in NY offer both a large and a small pizza. Or an 18" and a 14". It may have evn been a little smaller than 14", but I don't think so.

[Pete-zza]

tdeane,

Out of curiosity, I did a Google search to see if I could get a better feel for the sizes of New York style pizzas as sold in NYC. I found several places, like Grimaldi's, that sell a 16" size, but there seemed to be more in the 14" and 18" sizes that you mentioned. Some places use only "small" and "large" on their menus (as you also noted) or are silent as to size. For example, Ben's Pizza on MacDougal, which was canadave's favorite neighborhood pizzeria when he lived in NYC, does not list a size for its pizzas on its menu (at least the online version). I found a lot more places outside of NYC that sell 16" "NY style" pizzas. They are all over the country, no doubt trying to please transplanted New Yorkers.

Peter

[solconnection]

This recipe looks really great, so nicely laid out and informative. Great first recipe to try for me as it uses mostly easily accessible ingredients and techniques.

the only problem for me is that i do not have an electric mixer and was hoping for some tips on hand mixing.

Ive got a ball sitting in the fridge i made by mixing with a wooden spoon and then sort of helping combine the dough by stretching a little and folding it together with my fingers and the spoon (i wasn't really pounding together onto a surface in a way i would call 'kneading' but that was somewhat the effect of it, i didnt do it for two long either...then i contrinued with Pizza Brasils method mentioned in page 1 of the threadL -> pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2175.msg19132.html#msg19132

i havent baked it yet and i will report back to let you know how it goes. but it looks like a nice dough

but was just wondering if anybody else has an update or technique they are happy with for hand mixing/kneading this recipe is it ok to just mix the ingredients to a batter and then just knead it for a few mins?

thanks in advance, its much appreciated
-Dan

[Pete-zza]

Dan,

I don't have specific hand kneading instructions for the Canadave recipe but you might apply those discussed at Reply 65 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.msg63786.html#msg63786.

Peter

[solconnection]

Dan,

I don't have specific hand kneading instructions for the Canadave recipe but you might apply those discussed at Reply 65 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.msg63786.html#msg63786.

Peter

Peter you are a weapon on the replies. big thanks (link looks very helpful)

-Dan

[solconnection]

hmmm, i baked one of these the other day but didnt get very good results. the crust puffed up but was still gummy by the time everything else was cooked (i even par baked it a minute before quickly topping it), though there was some nice crispness to the base. I baked at 530 on the top shelf on my pizza crisper

I also found it very hard to form in to a pizza (peel?), there were air bubbles in the dough, which meant there were sections of it that were paper thin and others that were thicker..could it be that i needed to knead it better during the creation of the dough ball? (i was hand kneading).

I also think there was maybe just too much dough, i followed pete-zzas formulation for a 16"er but even though i made a huge pizza it still felt like i had a bit too much, especially around the edges. Maybe i would be better off with a 13 or 14 inch formulation.

I also found it a bit heavy, compared to another recipe i made at the same time, but maybe that is desirable in this style of pizza. I used a 13% protein AP flour.

if anyone has any ideas of where i went wrong i would really appreciate any thoughts. I see potential in this recipe and i want to try it again but first i need to learn from my mistakes.

thanks in advance and have a nice day
-Dan

[Pete-zza]

Dan,

I don't know if you caught it, but I actually gave two dough formulations for canadave's NY style dough, both for 16" pizzas. The first formulation is at Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2175.msg19140.html#msg19140. The second dough formulation is at Reply 39 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2175.msg20385.html#msg20385. The first dough formulation was my attempt at a baker's percent version of canadave's original recipe where he gave the amounts of ingredients in volumes. The second dough formulation was a considerably thinner version of canadave's original recipe. As you will see at Reply 39, for that version I kneaded the dough by hand. Admittedly, canadave's version produces a thicker crust than most NY style doughs I have tried and read about, so you may find it easier to try the thinner version until such time as you feel more comfortable making the thicker version. If you decide that you would like to make a smaller pizza, that is easy enough to do using one of the dough calculating tools once you decide which dough formulation (the thick one or the thin one) you would like to use. If you want a really thin crust, that is also easy to do.

I think a good part of your problem is using the pizza crisper. Apparently it is ill suited for the canadave NY style. You should use either a pizza stone or, as I did, a pizza screeen. The problems you had with thin/thick areas in the skin and a rim that was too large should correct themselves with practice and experience.

Peter

[WildKaper]

Hi all -

My first post on this forum.  I just wanted to provide some feedback on Dave's recipe.  I must confess, I've never been to New York, but I've tried some "good" N.Y. Style Pizzas, and this was definitely better than those.  I followed all the instructions in Dave's initial email, and I had no problems making the dough or shaping the pizza (The only problem I had was that I was not comfortable lifting the dough to stretch it, so I did a bunch of mini-lifts and stretches on the board).  I also only have a 14" wooden peel and a 15" stone, so my crust was a bit thicker than a true N.Y. Style, but it tasted great nonetheless.  I might make three smaller dough balls next time, just to keep it thinner overall.

I only let my first dough ball sit for 24 hours.  My other dough ball is going to sit for 3-5 days.  I will let you know how that one turns out.

Thanks everyone for the great posts and instructions.

[WestCountry]

Hi,

I used Canadave’s recipe to make 2 thin (13-14 inch) pizzas on Christmas Day, and they came out wonderful. 

The dough had a little bit of crispiness, a little bit of chew, and lots of small bubbles – just what I like. This was my first time using a long cold rise (4-day) and KASL flour. I used Peter’s translated proportions below. These pies had the magical kind of quality that I strive for.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=6b46fae693e585ba19feb4f59d956fc2&topic=2175.msg19140#msg19140

Canadave's NY Style Dough Recipe (16-inch)
---------------------------------------------------------
100%, High-gluten flour (KASL), 16 oz. (453.6 g.), 3 3/4 c.
64.1%, Water (tap, cool), 10.25 oz. (290.7 g.), 1 1/4 c.
0.78%, IDY (instant dry yeast), 0.12 oz. (3.54 g.), 1 1/4 t.
1.31%, Fine sea salt, 0.21 oz. (5.98 g.), 1 t.
1.32%, Sugar, 0.21 oz. (5.98 g.), 1 1/2 t.
4.63%, Oil, 0.74 oz. (21 g.), 1 1/2 T.
Total dough weight = 27.54 oz. (780.8 g.)
Thickness Factor (TF) = 0.137

...but again please note, instead of one 16 inch pizza, I used this same recipe above for two thin 13-14 inch pies, so my pizza’s probably look a lot different than the pies earlier in this topic. I cooked the pizza in a kitchen (gas) oven at 550 degrees on a pre-heated pizza stone. I also did not cook the crust without toppings since the crust was pretty thin.

Thanks to all for sharing your info in this topic. Happy Holidays!
Chris

[Pete-zza]

Chris,

That's a great looking pizza.

I did some calculations based on the 13"-14" pizza sizes you mentioned. For the 13" size, the thickness factor goes from 0.137 to 0.10073; for the 14" size, the thickness factor goes from 0.137 to 0.08685. The thickness factor of 0.10073 is more along the lines of a NY "street" style; the thickness factor of 0.08685 is more along the NY "elite" style. So, you have a choice of either style from a crust thickness standpoint.

You can use either thickness factor value, along with the same baker's percents in the dough formulation you used, in the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html. The tool will give you the ingredients for any size pizza you want. I suggest using a bowl residue compensation value (e.g., 1.5%) in the tool to compensate for minor dough losses during preparation of the dough.

At the time I did the conversion of canadave's recipe to baker's percent format, I was using a spreadsheet and I did conversions of flour and water from weights to volumes using my kitchen scale. The dough calculating tool does a better job than my spreadsheet. To convert weights of flour and water to volumes for any given dough formulation, I recommend that users use November's Mass-Volume Conversion Calculator at http://foodsim.toastguard.com/ for those ingredients in the pull-down menu. The measurement method should be the "Textbook" method. That method is defined in Reply 21 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6576.msg56397/topicseen.html#msg56397.

Thanks for posting. You may have encouraged others who prefer a thinner style to use your modified canadave recipe.

Peter

EDIT (3/4/13): Replaced Calculator link with the current link.

[WestCountry]

Thanks Peter -

I am going to start using those tools you mention above more. I just got a nice digital scale (MyWeight KD8000 model) that I am starting to use. This scale is a lot of fun, and this will allow me to fine tune and document and evolve my recipes more.

This recipe worked great for a home oven with lower heat range. (up to 550 degrees). I will try this recipe as well with higher heat at some point in the future and see how it comes out there.

Chris

[Ray_uk_82]

I've just made half a batch of this recipe. I had to hand kneed it as I don't really have a suitable machine, but I followed all the steps as closely as possible. My question is really regarding the prooving of the bread in the fridge; how much increase in size would I be expecting after 24Hours?

This will be the first pizza dough recipe I have used that differs form a generic bread recipe. I have made several pizzas with good results simply using a bread consisting of

250g Strong bread flour
175ml luke-warm water
3.5g fast action yeast (this is approximate as it is half a sachet)
pinch of salt.

Dough usually kneeded for 10 minutes, prooved for an hour in a warm place, (usually doubles in size rougly); knocked back and prooved for a further 20 min.

My concern really is the proportion of yeast to flour in this (canadave's) recipe (it's a lot lower than the bread recipe). If this is due to the longer prooving, and we aren't looking for such an increase in volume then I can sort of understand it. Just concerns me that for nearly double the quantity of flour, I am using no more (and maybe even a little less) yeast.

As I say, the dough is in the fridge now so there's not much I can do. I'd just like to have an idea what to expect rather than waste good toppings on a dough that might not be quite right. For the half recipe I used,

1 Lb flour
1.25 cups water (I used the equivalent 312ml)
1.25 tsp yeast
1tsp salt (I used slightly less)
0.5 tbs sugar
1.5 tbs olive oil.

Any thoughts on what to expect would be appreciated.

[Pete-zza]

Ray_uk_82,

When I first tried canadave's NY style dough recipe, as described at Reply 33 in this thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2175.msg19801.html#msg19801, I experienced a substantial and clearly noticeable increase in the dough volume while in the refrigerator. You can actually see the degree of dough expansion at Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2238.msg19652.html#msg19652. In my case, the dough shown in Reply 3 was after 65 hours of cold fermentation but it rose noticeably even before that. canadave noted at Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2238.msg19660.html#msg19660 that my dough behaved normally. What happens in your particular case in terms of dough expansion will be governed by the temperature of the water you used in making the dough, the finished dough temperature, the temperature of your refrigerator compartment, and whether you allowed the dough to warm up at all before putting it into the refrigerator. In my case, I had all of these factors under good control yet the dough still expanded quickly.

It is typical for a pizza dough, especially one that is to be cold fermented, to use less yeast than a bread dough. It is also common for a pizza dough to have a lower hydration than a bread dough. So, I wouldn't worry about the differences.

You also shouldn't have any problems using hand kneading, provided that it is properly done. I made and reported on a "thin" hand-kneaded version of canadave's recipe at Reply 39 in this thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2175.msg20385.html#msg20385.

Peter

[Ray_uk_82]

Thanks for your reply. The dough has been in the fridge for about 5 hours and has expanded quite a bit. I'd say it's about twice the size it was or maybe just under, so I am happier that some fermentation is taking place with this quantity of yeast to flour.

When I made the dough the water wasn't cold, but what I would describe as being tepid, roughly how water would feel if left to reach room temperatue (although I appreciate that isn't a very precise description or temperature). I kneeded the dough and put it straight into the fridge. I'll keep and eye on it, and if I think it's necessary, transfer it to a bigger bowl before I go to bed so that it doesn't get stuck to the lid if it looks to still be expanding.

I'm probably going to use some of this dough tomorrow, but I won't need all of it (I appreciate in hindsight I should have seperated the dough prior to putting it in the fridge). Is it best to knock the dough back and divide it; reserving half for the next day in the fridge? or should I attempt to divide it, without knocking back the portion I intend to keep for the following day?

[Pete-zza]

Ray_uk_82,

I think it is better to do the division up front for a cold fermented dough that is to be shaped by hand, but in your case it may not really matter whether you knock the dough back or not because of the large amount of yeast. However, I think I would try to gently divide the dough into two pieces, shape them gently into round balls, and put them in separate storage containers.

In re-reading your ingredient quantities, I noted that you used 312 ml (312 grams) of water for 1 1/4 cups. Can you tell me where you got that conversion? Technically, one cup of water weighs 8.345 oz., making 1 1/2 cups weigh 10.43 oz, or 295.74 grams, not 312 grams. At 312 grams of water for a pound of flour, the hydration would be 68.78%. At 295.74 grams, the hydration would be 65.2%. Most people who measure out water volumetrically tend to use a "lighter" cup, typically 8.1-8.2 ounces by weight. In fact, I often use those values in converting water in recipes from volumes to weights.

Peter

[WestCountry]

I have had good success with this recipe in my kitchen oven (around 550 degrees). Now that I can go higher (I just got a high temperature oven - 2Stone).  I was wondering about the following:

1) How high could I (or should I) push oven temperature for this recipe for BEST results (without making change to recipe)?    (realizing that at high heat the sugar and maybe oil (?) could be an issue.)

Thanks,
Chris

[Pete-zza]

Chris,

At about 1.3% sugar, there should not be a problem in a home oven setting. However, it is likely to be a problem at the much higher temperatures of the  2Stone unit. That problem could be solved or at least mitigated by omitting the sugar in the recipe but then you might end up with too little residual sugar in the dough at the time of baking to get decent crust coloration. That is because of the large amount of yeast (almost 0.80%) and its capacity to feed off of the natural sugars released from the starch by the action of enzymes. You might be able to compensate for that effect by using the dough sooner, maybe after a day or two. That is something you may have to do some experimenting with. Or perhaps a member who is using canadave's recipe with a 2Stone unit can answer your questions more definitively.

Peter