canadave's NY Style recipe

[Ray_uk_82]

The conversion of 1 cup = 312ml was done based on volume;  I was informed that 1 cup=250ml. therefore 1.25*250 ~ 312ml. From your reply I am gathering that I should have dealt with the cup in weight rather than volume. Unfortunately in the UK, a cup is a very rarely used measure (certainly not one I come across often) Any weights in a recipe would normally be in pounds or grams; any liquids would be in ml or fluid ounces. Hence the apparent confusion. What problems is the over-hydrated dough likely to cause?

[WestCountry]

Thanks Peter for the high-temp feedback above.  That's what I figured. I will experiment with the yeast and sugar ingredients and see if I can work it out.

Chris

[November]

Can you tell me where you got that conversion? Technically, one cup of water weighs 8.345 oz., making 1 1/2 cups weigh 10.43 oz, or 295.74 grams, not 312 grams.

As you might have already figured out, Peter, a metric cup is 250 mL.

[Pete-zza]

What problems is the over-hydrated dough likely to cause?

All else being equal, a more highly hydrated dough will ferment faster, and be more extensible and possibly harder to handle when shaping and stretching into a dough base, especially if of large diameter. The dough may also have a tendency to want to stick to a peel or a screen if used to dress the pizza before depositing it into the oven. On the positive side, if the dough has a well developed gluten structure with good gas and moisture retention, and has adequate yeast and sugar at the time of baking, the finished crumb may be more open and airy.

Thank you, and November, for clarifying the metric cup matter.

Peter

[Ray_uk_82]

All else being equal, a more highly hydrated dough will ferment faster, and be more extensible and possibly harder to handle when shaping and stretching into a dough base, especially if of large diameter. The dough may also have a tendency to want to stick to a peel or a screen if used to dress the pizza before depositing it into the oven. On the positive side, if the dough has a well developed gluten structure with good gas and moisture retention, and has adequate yeast and sugar at the time of baking, the finished crumb may be more open and airy.

Thank you, and November, for clarifying the metric cup matter.

Peter

Ok. Thankfully the dough didn't strike me as being too difficult to handle at the time of putting it in the fridge. I'm used to using bread dough that has a distinct tendancy to not want to be stretched into a round, so hopefully this dough may be a little more co-operative. I'm sure i'll be able to make a serviceable pizza from this batch; hopefully It will in some way be different to the previous ones I have made.

I've also got a batch (enough for one 8" pizza) of bread dough that has been in the fridge for about 3 days. Is there any use for this as some sort of pre-ferment, or is it likely to be exhausted?

[Pete-zza]

I've also got a batch (enough for one 8" pizza) of bread dough that has been in the fridge for about 3 days. Is there any use for this as some sort of pre-ferment, or is it likely to be exhausted?

Usually a prefermented dough (aka "old dough" or chef) that has been cold fermented is used after about 18-20 hours and maybe a bit longer. So, three days of cold fermentation may be too long and produce a dough that is low in residual sugar. Yeast levels may also be low. However, the dough should contain a lot of fermentation byproducts that can be used to add flavor and aromas and to improve the texture of a crust made using the next generation dough into which the prefermented dough is incorporated. In such a case, you will perhaps not want to exceed about 15-25% of the final dough as prefermented dough (scrap). You will also want to adjust the yeast levels in the final dough. Since the prefermented dough includes salt, the salt level of the final dough will also need adjustment.

Peter

[areacode514]

One of the nice things about the dough for a 16-inch is that it just right for making two 12-inch pizzas. That way, you can make them both different.

Hello!

I am extremely happy to have found this forum and this recipe.  I've prepared the dough and will be very much looking forward to baking the pizza in a couple of days.

I have some newbie questions (and apologies if they have been asked and answered already in other threads).

1) What would be the best way of splitting up the dough into two balls in order to make 12-inch pizzas? 

Should I cut the dough using a knife?  Or should I try to slowly twist it into two halves (as if making sausages)?

I read so much about the gluten strands being important, so I presume that cutting would have some negative impact, if minimal.  But I guess I'm just curious to know if use of a knife is ever part of the equation when making dough.

2) Do I presume correctly that the best time to split the dough is immediately after the dough has been prepared (as opposed to after the dough has been sitting in the fridge for X days)? 

My thinking is that, [based on Canadave's original recipe, where he divides into two equal balls (that will make 16-inch pizzas) and lets them ferment in separate containers in the fridge], for me to make 12-inch pizzas, I should divide into four equal balls and let these ferment in separate containers.

3) Do I conclude correctly that any manipulation after fermentation should be kept to a minimum (i.e. just what is necessary to shape the dough flat)?


Perhaps in writing all of the above, I've actually answered my own questions.  In that case, any feedback confirming (or refuting) this would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers,

areacode514

[Pizza_Not_War]

1) What would be the best way of splitting up the dough into two balls in order to make 12-inch pizzas? 

Should I cut the dough using a knife?  Or should I try to slowly twist it into two halves (as if making sausages)?

I read so much about the gluten strands being important, so I presume that cutting would have some negative impact, if minimal.  But I guess I'm just curious to know if use of a knife is ever part of the equation when making dough.

2) Do I presume correctly that the best time to split the dough is immediately after the dough has been prepared (as opposed to after the dough has been sitting in the fridge for X days)? 

My thinking is that, [based on Canadave's original recipe, where he divides into two equal balls (that will make 16-inch pizzas) and lets them ferment in separate containers in the fridge], for me to make 12-inch pizzas, I should divide into four equal balls and let these ferment in separate containers.

3) Do I conclude correctly that any manipulation after fermentation should be kept to a minimum (i.e. just what is necessary to shape the dough flat)?

Easiest tool for cutting dough is pictured below. Buy one as it is easier to use than a knife and as you get into other forms of baking you will find it invaluable. Also use to scrape dough off a board or counter.

You will find that most recipes will call for a bulk rise and then splitting dough into balls for a second rise. I personally use a 20 hour room temp bulk rise and then portion to dough balls for an additional 4 hours or so.

Your item #3 is correct in that you don't want to play around with the dough that has risen and ruin the party. If you over handle the dough you might wind up with a flat hockey puck of a pizza, no fun at all unless you need a spare puck for your hockey game.

PNW

[Pete-zza]

areacode514,

I agree with everything PNW said. And, yes, if you used canadave's original recipe with two pounds of flour, that would be enough to make two 16" pizzas or four 12" pizzas.

Peter

[areacode514]

Thanks for your input.

Just to make sure I don't misunderstand, when exactly is the "bulk rise" and "second rise" occurring in Canadave's recipe? 
Is the bulk rise happening during the 24-48 hour fridge period, and the second rise happening when the tin is taken out of the fridge and left on the countertop at room temperature for 1-2 hours?

Regards,

areacode514

[Pizza_Not_War]

514

I just now looked at the recipe, it appears from this "4. Remove dough from mixer and divide into two equal balls." that he does not use a bulk rise at all. A bulk rise would be if he left all the dough as one batch and then split it into 2 pieces at a later time after some fermentation.

PNW

[Pete-zza]

areacode514,

These days, cold fermented dough is invariably divided up front rather than after fermentation. It is just the easier and better way to do it, with less handling and shaping of the dough. Bulk rising of dough with later division is more common with room temperature fermented dough (e.g., Neapolitan style) or where the dough balls are to be run through a roller or sheeter.

Peter

[NewYorkMinute]

Dave,

This looks like an old thread. I like your recipe and will try it out with your twists -- it looks similar to what I'm now doing but interesting enough to try out soon, which for me will probably be in a day or two. Every time I say I need a break from making pizzas I find myself right back at it! I have made the street NY pizza that is my favorite but made the mistake of making it a little extra crunchy, something I really hate! If you or anybody has more ideas on NY-style pizza please let me know. Best Regards all....

Hi all,

It's been a while since I've posted to the forum, but Peter talked me into posting my latest version of my NY style recipe.  It's based on lots of what I've learned here, and also based on member varasano's recipe as well

I'm a long-time native New Yorker, so rest assured that the observations I make in the article about NY pizza are authentic, not just what I read out of a book somewhere

Also, my page has a detailed introduction to New York pizza, as well as detailed step-by-step instructions for some of the more difficult steps in the recipe (like stretching dough with your hands).  Just about every step has an explanation as to why it's done that way and not some other way.  At the end is a "quick recipe" for people who just want to "cut to the chase" and get the recipe and directions with no explanations.


INTRODUCTION
===========

True New York City pizza is a special experience, a concoction that is often imitated but rarely gotten right. There are lots of recipes on the Internet that claim to produce a “New York-Style Pizza,” but mostly these come nowhere close to resembling an actual New York pizza (for a variety of reasons).

There are really two types of authentic New York pizzas; I like to call them “street” pizzas and “elite” pizzas. A “street” pizza is typical of the myriad pizzerias that exist throughout New York (epitomized by the ubiquitous-yet-all-unrelated “Ray’s” which sit on seemingly every other street corner), where you can walk in and order inexpensive individual slices to stay or to go. These pizzas are characterized by a flexible, foldable crust that’s anywhere from ¼-to-½ inch thick; tomato sauce with some light spices; and a relatively thick layer of mozzarella cheese, cooked in a standard gas-fired commercial pizza oven.

“Elite” pizzas in New York can be found at only a handful of famous pizzeria restaurants that have been in existence for decades. At these legendary establishments, individual “pizza masters” have passed along a tradition of high-quality pizza. Lombardi’s, Patsy’s, John’s, Totonno’s, and Grimaldi’s are examples of these pizzerias (Lombardi’s, which opened in 1905, was the first pizzeria in the United States). An elite pizza is generally more expensive, and can only be bought as whole pies, rather than individual slices (the pie itself is cut into slices of course). The pizzas themselves are usually slightly thinner and crispier; use a higher-quality cheese such as fresh mozzarella or bocconcino, placed sparingly on the pizza; feature very lightly-spiced sauces made from quality fresh San Marzano tomatoes; and—most importantly—are cooked in ovens that are either wood-fired or coal-fired to achieve extremely high baking temperatures (700 to 800 degrees), resulting in a dark brown or black char to the crust that is extraordinarily delicious.

Which type of pizza is better? Although elite pizzas are almost always superb, there are many street pizzas that taste just as good, if not superior. In fact, a common New York pastime is arguing about which local neighbourhood pizzeria is the best. Conversely, I have tasted a few elite pizzas that were substandard. Yet some street pizzas are so bad that they barely qualify as pizza. Suffice to say, there are great examples out there of both elite and street pizza....

[Mikro-Midas]

I think I'll have Canadaves recipe a try, but I have some questions.

1) Is an 20 minute autolyse really necessary? Does it make any difference from 5 min.?
2) I find the 4-6 days of rising far longer than anything I've ever read. Have anyone other than Canadave tried the same recipe (this or an other) with and without the long rise, to taste for a difference?
3) Why is the pizza precooked? To make it easier to handle or because it's supposed to taste better?
4) Wouldn't the oven get cold, when it is opened three times instead of one? Should you wait some time to get the oven hot again before the second bake?
5) The trick with opening the door (dus letting warm air out, but leaving the stone hot) to trick the oven to heat up the stone some more, how is that done? How long should you open the door and how long should you close it again, before opening again (when the oven is hot again) ... etc ...
6) Is there an advantage in putting the oil in as the last ingredient to the dough, as many mentions (but this recipe doesn't), or is that a sort of question no-one manage to agree on?

A lot of questions; thanks to anyone who could answer some of them! 
But I think I'll start at once anyway 

[Pete-zza]

Mikro-Midas,

I will attempt to answer your questions, using your paragraph numbering system.

1. What Canadave uses is not technically an autolyse, because it includes the yeast during the rest period, but since cold water is also used, the rest period is quite close to an autolyse rest period. A twenty minute rest period is quite common but five minutes might be too short if you are making the full amount of dough for two pizzas. A rest period of 10-15 minutes might be sufficient.

2. A 4-6 day cold fermentation period is not usual but it is not rare either. It is somewhat unusual, however, for a dough with the high yeast level (0.78% IDY) of Canadave's dough formulation. If you go back and read the rest of the thread, you will see that I made a "thinner" version of Canadave's pizza and used less than 4-6 days of cold fermentation, specifically, about 70 hours. Because of the high yeast level of Canadave's dough, I believe that Canadave's dough can be used within shorter time periods, perhaps as short as one day. However, I did not personally try a much shorter period. Many of our members, me included, have made and used doughs successfully after more than two weeks of cold fermentation, but not using Canadave's recipe to the best of my knowledge. Special measures, not material here, have to be used to achieve such long fermentation periods.

3. I can't speak for Canadave as to why he pre-bakes his crust, but it is a fairly common technique, one that is often used in order to get a greater height an a more open and airy characteristic in the finished crust. This is made possible not only because of the high yeast content and high hydration of Canadave's dough but also because there is no weight of sauce, cheese and toppings to restrict the expansion of the dough during the pre-bake.

4. Opening the oven door will allow some oven heat to escape, but there should still be significant retention of heat by the pizza stone. However, it won't hurt to let the oven warm up again before finishing baking the pizza with the sauce, cheeses and toppings. In fact, the oven may regain its temperature while the pre-baked crust is being dressed.

5. With my electric oven, a light goes on whenever the bottom coil goes on. If I open the door to get the bottom coil to go on, the light goes on as soon as the coil goes on.

6. There are some people who feel that adding the oil earlier in the dough making process impedes hydration of the flour. Others feel that adding the oil earlier in the dough making process allows for more uniform dispersion of the oil throughout the dough. I have used both methods in a home setting and have not detected any significant differences. However, if you are hand kneading, it is more difficult to incorporate oil into an existing dough than if you are using a stand mixer.

Peter

[Mikro-Midas]

Well, now I have tried both the Candanave recipe and Pete-zza´s modified, thinner version. I divided the doughs in two and put (the four of) them in freezer bags in the refrigerator, coated with some oil. I had some problems, though. When it was time to take them out of the bags, after a couple of hours on the kitchen counter, it was really hard to get them out in a nondestructive way. They were much flatter (big volume, but low hight) than my usual doughs tend to be, and very airy/light, so I had to be very careful when I took them out. I might have have used a little to little oil, cause it seemed to stick to the bottom of the bag more than normal. The bag also seemed to small, the balls being so flat, so that made it harder to get them out properly. The doughs also was a little hard to handle when they were out; I had to be very careful and the doughs didn't get to the right size. Under I have put pictures of three of my four pizza attempts. I ended up reshaping the two last doughs and had a new rise, 30 min. in the sun. The fourth (one from Dave's recipe) was made after 1 1/2 day (in contrast to the others, which was made after 3 1/2 days in the fridge), and I don't have any picture of it, but it looked like the others and tasted similar. This can, dough, be because of my problems sited above. I'm not really sure which of the other pizzas was from which recipe, but I guess the largest of them (it still didn't reach the 12 inch mark) was from the original recipe, since it was supposed to be thicker. They tasted good, but I guess they could have been better without my problems. Any improvement suggestions, anyone?

[Pete-zza]

Mikro-Midas,

I am away from my home base this week, but can you tell me where you are located and what type and brand of flour you used, and what bake protocol you used?

You should be aware that the Canadave dough is prone to high fermentation because of the high hydration and the relatively large amount of yeast. The problem with spreading can be resolved with hydration control (in relation to the type of flour used) and by using a bowl or similar container to store the dough balls instead of plastic storage bags.

Can you also tell me whether you re-shaped, re-kneaded, or re-balled the dough balls before you used them for reasons other than to resurrect the dough because of the spreading and sticking problems? With Canadave's dough formulation you should have been able to shape and stretch the dough balls out to size without any difficulty.

Peter

[CaptSammy]

. . .but Peter talked me into posting my latest version of my NY style recipe.
Enjoy Dave

Great post.  Thank you very much and once again Thanks Peter
Capt Sammy

[Mikro-Midas]

I'm located i Oslo, Norway. I used regular all-purpose flour and mixed in some gluten flour (about 1/2 a deciliter per 7 dl of total flour). They began selling alimenti Dallari tipo "0" in some stores some mounts ago, but I'm not sure if it is any good (my pizza making have improved a lot since the last time I tried it. Anyone tried it?). Anyway, I usually am trying to make my pizzas a little more healthy and am therefor in need to mix wholemeal wheat with gluten flour. Do you know if I need to use more gluten flour then to make it rise sufficiently? Anyhow, back to the answers: I'm not sure what you mean by bake protocol but if your asking how I made it, I tried to follow the directions. I had to sift the all-purpose and gluten flour together some times, and the flour/water ratio was adjusted to find the slightly sticky, but not "sticking to your finger" kind of sticky, feel. I then used the wondowpane test, which I've just read about and never actually seen anyone do, so I don't know if I doing it correct, but it can't be very far from good enough.

What do you mean by hydration control?

The balls were just re-balled and let to get a new rise.

[Pete-zza]

Mikro-Midas,

The reason I asked you where you are located is that flours used outside of the U.S. are often weaker than U.S. flours and don't perform in the same fashion, and often with the same degree of success, as U.S. flours . High-gluten flours, which is the type of flour called for by Canadave's recipe, are often unavailable in many countries outside of the U.S. Substituting bread flour will often work, but substituting all-purpose flour, even if supplemented with vital wheat gluten (VWG), doesn't produce equivalent results. Moreover, when using weaker flours, it is usually necessary to alter the hydration value of the recipe such that it approaches the rated absorption value of the particular flour used. In the U.S., for an all-purpose flour, that hydration value would be around 60%. That is what I mean by "hydration control".

In your case, you may want to lower the hydration value to around 60% and make whatever ancillary adjustments are necessary if you plan to supplement your flour with VWG and/or whole wheat flour. If you are using, or plan to use, only whole wheat flour, possibly supplemented with VWG, I can't tell you how well Canadave's recipe will work with that flour blend.

If you use bowls instead of freezer bags, you should avoid the need to re-ball, re-shape or re-knead the dough balls. Under normal conditions, you never want to do this sort of thing. It sounds like you are trying to make four 12" pizzas rather than two 16" pizzas. If such is the case, you shouldn't have any problems making four 12" pizza.

By bake protocol, I meant how you baked your pizzas, that is, using a pizza stone or tiles or screen, the type of oven, the rack positioning, oven temperature and bake time.

Peter