Pizza Making Forum

Pizza Making => Cracker Style => Topic started by: nick57 on April 15, 2012, 07:22:14 PM

Title: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on April 15, 2012, 07:22:14 PM
After almost fail  in my last thread, I have made my best pie ever. I did tweak the doctors recipe a little. I added a teaspoon of garlic powder.  The major change was doubling the amount of oil. I had made some matzo dough after watching a video, and it made  great crackers. The matzo recipe called for almost as much oil as water. It was too light for pizza. So I decided to increase the oil in the Doctor's recipe. After mixing the dough, I still had a lot of dry flour, so spritzed the dry flour with water to moisten it, then formed the ball. The difference was amazing. It was light, airy, and very crackery. Even the areas  that did not laminate were light and very crispy, not dense and hard. It is as close to the original Pizza Hut thin and crispy as I think get using a home oven. I used KABF. I have not tried KASL flour as of yet. Maybe using that would make it more flakey. All in all, I think I have gone as far as possible in making a great cracker crust at home. I tried this method twice since my Cracker Crust Fail, and both times I got the same results. So, I think this will be my final recipe for cracker crust pizza, I don't think I can improve it. I have attached pics to show the results. I think I cooked the pizza a little to long, the crust was very brown, but did not taste burnt.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on April 15, 2012, 07:24:54 PM
The skin looks like the way I wanted it. It was very easy to roll out. It is about as thin as a dime. I docked it very lightly.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on April 15, 2012, 07:28:03 PM
This is after the par bake. I baked it in the cutter pan for two minutes. I removed it from the pan and placed the skin on the stone for three more minutes. I poked the bubbles after removing from the stone. I let the skin cool to room temp before topping.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on April 15, 2012, 07:31:12 PM
 I lowered the oven temp to 425 degrees.I brushed the skin with olive oil. Then add the toppings of mozz, mushrooms, Italian sausage, and diced tomatoes. I placed the skin on the stone and baked till the cheese started to lightly brown.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on April 15, 2012, 07:32:58 PM
Some slices of the pie. Very crisp, and a nice light bite.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on April 15, 2012, 07:34:30 PM
I got some nice lamination. The areas that did not laminate were crispy, not dense and tough.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on April 15, 2012, 07:35:19 PM
Bottom browned up, no burning.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on April 15, 2012, 07:41:37 PM
Very, thin and crispy. This is my best to date. The texture of the crust was delightful, and I can't wait to make another one. Thanks to everyone on the forum. I finally made the pizza of my dreams. Without this site, I would still be eating low grade pizzas. Now I can have my fave pizza if I can stand the 24 hour wait for the dough. I think this will be my last post on my cracker crust quest. I think my next thread will be Pizza Bianca.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: BTB on April 16, 2012, 09:04:14 AM
Excellent looking cracker crust, Nick.  It has to be back on my Bucket List!           --BTB     :-D
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: Mad_Ernie on April 16, 2012, 04:29:31 PM
Excellent looking cracker crust, Nick.  It has to be back on my Bucket List!           --BTB     :-D


I agree.  Great photos showing us the progression to the final product.  I don't know why, but I have always steered clear of par-baking.  Maybe I need to rethink that.

Keep 'em coming, Nick57.  You've got some great pics of a winner there.  :)

-ME
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on April 16, 2012, 05:10:57 PM
  Thanks BTB and Mad Ernie!
  When I first tried my hand at cracker crusts, I did not par bake them. The end result was more dense and chewy, with a little crakery texture. I also did not like gummy results under the toppings. After par baking the crust, they were more light and crackery and no gummy layer. I believe the more moisture you can drive out of the dough while cooking makes for a more tender and cracker like crust. That's why I have started letting the crust cool down to room temp after the par bake. The crust seems to get more crisper as it cools. When I used to par bake, I would pull the skin out of the oven and top it as fast as possible, and then back to the oven. The crust was still soft when it went back in as compared to being crisper if I gave it a chance to cool before topping. Also, lowering the oven temp to 425 after par baking gives the crust more time in the heat while the toppings cook.
  I think my biggest surprise was, doubling the amount of oil in the dough recipe. It got rid of the dense and chewy texture, and gave it a very flakey, tender, and cracker like result. It's hard to get commercial results with a home oven. I do have to go through more steps using this process, but I now can get the type of crust I am looking for. I almost believe I won't go out for cracker crust pizza again when I can make better at home. Plus I get the satisfaction of making a great pizza and sharing with good friends and family.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: Chicago Bob on April 16, 2012, 06:24:22 PM
 Thanks BTB and Mad Ernie!
  When I first tried my hand at cracker crusts, I did not par bake them. The end result was more dense and chewy, with a little crakery texture. I also did not like gummy results under the toppings. After par baking the crust, they were more light and crackery and no gummy layer. I believe the more moisture you can drive out of the dough while cooking makes for a more tender and cracker like crust. That's why I have started letting the crust cool down to room temp after the par bake. The crust seems to get more crisper as it cools. When I used to par bake, I would pull the skin out of the oven and top it as fast as possible, and then back to the oven. The crust was still soft when it went back in as compared to being crisper if I gave it a chance to cool before topping. Also, lowering the oven temp to 425 after par baking gives the crust more time in the heat while the toppings cook.
  I think my biggest surprise was, doubling the amount of oil in the dough recipe. It got rid of the dense and chewy texture, and gave it a very flakey, tender, and cracker like result. It's hard to get commercial results with a home oven. I do have to go through more steps using this process, but I now can get the type of crust I am looking for. I almost believe I won't go out for cracker crust pizza again when I can make better at home. Plus I get the satisfaction of making a great pizza and sharing with good friends and family.
    Nick57,

That was an excellent post you just made....you have learned alot and it shows.

I really wish there was someway that we could all have a "tips and tricks" section for each of the different styles listed here on the forum....your's here would definetly be in it. But I guess it would be very hard to set this idea up unless we had only one person selecting the tips .  Just a thought.....

Bob
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: lawman on April 24, 2012, 10:40:30 AM
Looks incredible! Exactly what I'm going for but haven't been able to produce. Some questions...

What is the Thickness Factor you used for this pizza?

Did you still do 24 hours in fridge and a ~2.5 warm-up?

I found the recipe from your other thread... was the only change, other than adding garlic, increasing the oil from 4 to 8?

flour   (used KABF)              100
water                                 45
salt                                      2
yeast                                 .75
oil                                    8.00

Thanks!
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on April 24, 2012, 05:51:54 PM
 Thanks Lawman. I was going for a thickness factor of .05, or about the thickness of a dime. I let the dough do it's thing for 24 hours in the fridge. The last pie I made, I let it warm up in a oven that was just warmer than room temp, about 80 or 90 degrees for about two hours. The warm dough rolled out very easily. I think I should have docked it a little more, it had larger bubbles than the last pie I made. I did punch them down after removing from the par bake. The main difference from my "Fail Cracker pie" was the doubling of the oil from 4 to 8, which turned out to be 2.26 tablespoons, and spritzing any dry flour with a little water before forming into a ball.. I tried more oil after making a matzo dough cracker pie as an experiment. The matzo uses almost as much oil as water. It made a great cracker but was too fragile to make a pizza with. After that I wanted to see what would happen if I tried it with a pizza crust. I just tried doubling the oil as a start. To my surprise it created a very crackery crust, and the dough was not tough or dense, it was light and airy. Just the way I remember Pizza Hut from the 60's.
 
 I've included the dough calculation tool so you can see the amounts I used to make a 16' pizza skin. As you can see the thickness factor is .1. I do that for a reason. Sometimes the dough gets out of shape or cracked at the edges when rolled out. I roll  the dough to the desired thickness, about a dime or so, then plop it in the cutter pan and trim. I have a lot of leftover dough. I would rather start with more dough so If I have a problem area with the skin, it is large enough that I can use the best part to place in the pan. As you can see it has the oil value at 4, which I changed to 8 for the last two Pies I made

I used olive oil in the dough, not extra virgin. I've read that Crisco makes a nicer tasting crust. I'm not sure the garlic powder adds any flavor, it is just an after thought. It does not show any salt  value, but I usually add a teaspoon to the mix.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: lawman on April 26, 2012, 03:52:39 PM
Nick... thanks for the dough calculation sheet. I made the dough last Tuesday and the pizza today. My dough had very little rise after 24 hours in the fridge. It did begin to rise during the two hour warm-up prior to rolling though but not as much as I expected. Using more oil did make this one of my better attempts but I still didn't get that light crispy crust you achieved but the pizza did turn out OK.

My crust was a thin solid piece, no separation, flakes or air pockets that you had. I did par-bake and let it cool a little before saucing and topping it. I also don't have a cutter pan or a stone :o instead I use a perforated pizza pan that has served me well for American Style crusts. I'm off to Amazon to find a dark anodized cutter pan. I'll give it another go next week.

The good thing about messing up is that you get to try again and make [EAT] more pizza! Thanks for documenting your process. 
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on April 26, 2012, 04:25:12 PM
 I use a cheap perforated Wal Mart cutter pan. My pan has gotten very dark over the years of use. It is a pretty thin pan, so maybe better heat transfer? Sorry to hear that you did not get bubbles. As you can see from my pic, I almost got too many bubbles. I am using KAFB flour. I heat the oven to 550 degrees, and let the stone warm up for an hour. I placed the very lightly docked pie in the pan on the stone for about three minutes. By the end of that time I already had a lot of bubbles. I removed the pie from the pan and placed on the stone for about two more minutes. I had very large bubbles when I pulled it from the oven. Maybe you aren't rolling thin enough, or the stone is not hot enough? I have made mine thicker in earlier attempts, and still got bubbles, but they were not as flakey or crispy. I always seem to get a pretty good amount of bubbles. I have gotten more crackery  and flakey crusts as I keep learning the process.
 I don't get much of a rise from the dough, maybe a 30% increase at most in size of the dough ball. I have read on the forum that letting the dough get to room temp or a little above helps in rolling out the skin, and it does work. Keep me informed on your progress. I'm going to make a pie next week. I will use the same steps outlined in this thread. I'll post comments and pics on this thread. We'll see if I get a good crust again. Maybe I'll get a failure, it's all about learning. Who thought making a great pie would be so difficult. Rocket science, me thinks. I should have studied more chemistry in school!  Just an after thought, I think using a stone will make a big difference. I started with out a stone, but found using it made a big difference in cracker crusts. The high heat of the stone creates steam in the dough, and that in turn creates the bubbles and lamination. Also the stone draws the moisture out of the skin, making it crisper.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: Papageorgio on April 30, 2012, 06:00:50 PM
For some reason I never got good results from doing my fermentation cold in the fridge. 18 hour room temperature gave me the rise and flavor i was looking for.

As far as pans go I've always liked the one with the holes in it. They make the same pan with no stick teflon coating but don't dare use the pizza cutter on that one. Plain flat pans without the holes seem to hold the moisture from escaping.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on April 30, 2012, 07:07:40 PM
I have been thinking about getting one of those screen discs and seeing what that it is like. I just use my pan for the initial par bake of two or three minutes. I remove the skin and finish the par bake directly on the stone. I then add the toppings to the skin and finish it on the stone.  I do the fridge thing because that is how Steve does it and it seems to work for me. I think on a cracker you don't want much of a rise, it would have more of a bread like texture, not cracker like. I think the long rise is more for flavor. I could be wrong though. 
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on May 12, 2012, 08:17:11 PM
After Lawman said he did not get any bubbles or lamination, I thought would try this again and post my results. I used the same procedure and ingredients. I did modify one thing. I mixed the dough by hand. It was easier and quicker than using the KA mixer. This is the dough after I dumped it onto the counter. I used the rubber spatula to mix the dough.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on May 12, 2012, 08:20:31 PM
The dough after shaping. It was dry and crumbly. So I spritzed it a little to moisten it, and get the dough to hold together.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on May 12, 2012, 08:22:05 PM
This is the stone I use. I have had it for about 5 years. As you can see it's had a problem, but does not effect it.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on May 12, 2012, 08:24:21 PM
This is the cheapo pizza pan I bought at Wally World. It was a two pan set. This one is 14 inches, and it came with a 12 inch pan without sides.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on May 12, 2012, 08:26:07 PM
This is the skin after a 26 hour rest in the fridge, and 2.5 hour sit on the counter.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on May 12, 2012, 08:27:23 PM
I've rolled the skin to the desired thickness.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on May 12, 2012, 08:31:50 PM
As you can see it's quite a bit bigger than the pan. If you look at the dough calculator I use a thickness factor of .1, but shoot for .05 thickness. I do that in case I have a bad area of the skin, I can use the good area for the pan .
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on May 12, 2012, 08:34:15 PM
This is after the par bake. As you can see I got quite a bit of bubbles.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on May 12, 2012, 08:37:33 PM
Ready to go in the oven. The ingredients in order, brushed on olive oil, 1 oz real shredded parm cheese, 8 oz of mozz, 8oz Italian sausage, 4oz shrooms, olives, 4oz diced tomatoes.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on May 12, 2012, 08:39:59 PM
Sliced and ready to consume. Lots of bubbles and lamination. It was very crispy and light. The parm cheese gave a nice flavor addition.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on May 12, 2012, 08:46:12 PM
Hmm.... I didn't get the first slice. My taster said the pie was really good, and he is not a pizza lover, at least until today! After Lawman said he did not get any bubbles or lamination I wanted to see if the fourth attempt would be the same a my last three, and it was. I used double the amount of oil that was called for in the dough calculator again. It really seems to lighten up the crust and and make it more cracker like. I'm sticking with this recipe for cracker crust. It's as close as I am going to get to Pizza Hut thin crust from the 60's. My next try at a pie will be New York style. I'm sure I'll need some luck with that.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: lawman on May 12, 2012, 10:21:22 PM
Wow... Nick that looks so good, do you deliver?

Is the stone necessary to get that crispy flaky bubbly goodness? I don't use a stone, just parbake on my pan then back in the oven on my pan. Also, am I correct to assume that all the pizza shops used a deck oven back then (60's-70's) and that the conveyor's are relatively new? If so, is that why I can't find this type of thin crust in the chain pizza stores.

Anyway, your pizza looks like the crispy thin crust I remember eating as a kid (I'm 42 now... or 43 - I'd have to ask my wife or do the math) and is what I'm trying to make.

I'll give it another go... seeing how thin you rolled out really helped. I didn't get mine that thin. Thanks for the pics, they are most helpful.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: lawman on May 12, 2012, 10:24:17 PM
The dough after shaping. It was dry and crumbly. So I spritzed it a little to moisten it, and get the dough to hold together.

Just noticed this in the pictures... did you spritz it with Downey... could be the secret ingredient I'm missing.  ;)
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: Chicago Bob on May 12, 2012, 10:29:12 PM
Another hit Nick....very, very nice job!!

I'll take 4 of those pies to-go.....X-large please.    ;)

Bob
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: Chicago Bob on May 12, 2012, 10:30:31 PM
Just noticed this in the pictures... did you spritz it with Downey... could be the secret ingredient I'm missing.  ;)
A very nice moisturizer...makes it cuddly soft !! :-D   ....er, crisp????
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: Chicago Bob on May 12, 2012, 10:51:49 PM
Nick,

I just noticed something........no sauce?

Bob
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on May 12, 2012, 11:26:22 PM
Thanks for the kind comments. I am no pizza expert. I have learned from the best pizza makers on this forum. I can't thank everyone enough! I can make a pizza from my past. In the 60's, my family treat was to go to the Pizza Hut in Bartlesville Ok. I remember getting take out and it was in a pointy paper sack. You tore the top and revealed the pizza on the cardboard disc. It may not be the best pizza, but it is what I grew up eating, so it brings back fond memories of a simpler time.
 I do think using a stone will make all the difference in the world for Lawman. Direct contact with a heat source as in the stone, will heat the dough fast enough to create steam which creates bubbles. Air does not transfer heat as well, resulting in no steam. I par bake my pizza at 550 degrees, then finish at 425 degrees. I think if you had an oven that went 700 or 900 degrees you would not need the stone to get the bubbles.
The reason for no sauce at this time is, this was mainly a crust making experiment. So I tried to keep the ingredients the same, and just try to adjust the way I made the dough. Just for fun I'll do this again, and instead of using olive oil on the crust, I'll do a tomato sauce to see if I get that gummy layer. I'll post my results.
 Oh my gosh, I let my secret out. Downy does really soften more things than just pizza.
 The most exciting thing is, if I want pizza, I can make one that is better than I can buy, and I always know it is going to be wonderful every time. What more can one ask for ?
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on May 12, 2012, 11:42:56 PM
I was just thinking. That's amazing in itself. Instead of worrying about what the tomato sauce would do to the skin, I think I will put parm on it first, then add the tomato sauce, then the mozz and the rest of the toppings. I think that would eliminate the gummy layer and it would be more of an traditional pizza
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: Tatoosh on May 13, 2012, 01:33:45 AM
Looks incredible! Exactly what I'm going for but haven't been able to produce. Some questions...

What is the Thickness Factor you used for this pizza?

Did you still do 24 hours in fridge and a ~2.5 warm-up?

I found the recipe from your other thread... was the only change, other than adding garlic, increasing the oil from 4 to 8?

flour   (used KABF)              100
water                                 45
salt                                      2
yeast                                 .75
oil                                    8.00

Thanks!

So is this in grams or ounces or bakers percentages? I am a bit confused.  Also, do you laminate the dough when rolling?  Rolling, folding, re-rolling and so forth?  If so, how many times?  And the pan, the perforated pan.  A topic I've been interested in recently.  Do you oil it or just rely on the oil in the dough?   Oh, yeah, the oil ... what sort?  Olive, canola, peanut, coconut palm? 

I do a thin, sort of California style, not cracker, but I do a pre-bake in a 475F oven (as hot as mine goes) before topping. I also do a light egg wash on the top while it is still hot from the oven, which has given me pizza with zero sogginess regardless of the amount of toppings and sauce.  Cracker is one of the three or four pies I want to learn to make well.  This looks very promising!  Thanks!
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on May 13, 2012, 09:17:10 AM
It's in bakers percentages. If you look earlier in this thread you'll see where I posted the dough calculator for the dough. It is in grams. I did not laminate the dough when rolling it out. The bubbles and lamination were a result of the moisture in the dough producing steam and separating the top and bottom of the skin. I coat the pan with olive oil non stick spray before putting skin in the pan. Though I have forgotten to oil the pan in the past before putting the skin in. It did not make any difference in how it turned out. Egg wash sounds interesting. I've also heard that if you brush the par baked skin with oil before adding the sauce it won't get soggy either.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: Tatoosh on May 13, 2012, 10:30:16 AM
Thanks for the advice and insight.  I did see the post with the dough calculator, but I never quite figured that application out, so I tend to scroll past it with only a perfunctory glance. When I looked at it again after your post, I saw the weights.  Nice, so I will have to figure it out at some point when I know the dimensions I will be making and the style of crust I am after. 

I've tried olive oil to protect the crust, but my experience has been the egg wash was most effective.  Your photos show a very crackery crust with the flakes scattered around, just like the old style Pizza Hut pizza.  Great stuff and I look forward to trying your style down the road when I can get a cutter pan shipped over from the States.  Given my wife's preference for larger quantities of sauce and cheese, I may have to do the egg wash on this too, but yours does look delish!
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on May 14, 2012, 10:55:02 PM
I don't think I can ever replicate the Pizza Hut pizza from the early 60's that I loved. I am using Johnsonville sweet Italian sausage. I think I need to add some fennel seed to make it more like Pizza Huts's. My last attempt was pretty close, but maybe just a little too dense on the non laminated areas. I think I will try 3.25 tablespoons of oil in the next skin. I'll post results and pics of the process. Hopefully it won't be a complete failure.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: Chicago Bob on May 14, 2012, 11:14:23 PM
I think I will try 3.25 tablespoons of oil in the next skin. I'll post results and pics of the process. Hopefully it won't be a complete failure.
Sounds great Nick.looking forward to your next attempt,thanks.
You've been posting bakers percents...is the 3.25 T jus a typo?
Keep up the good work man!
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on May 15, 2012, 08:59:44 AM
No typo. When I first used the dough calculator I started out with 1.13 tablespoons of oil. After trying the matzo dough recipe I moved the oil up 2.26 tablespoons. That really improved the cracker like texture of the skin, and seemed to help with bubbles and lamination. So just for fun I thought I would up the oil a little more. I't might improve the texture, or more likely maybe make the skin too delicate for a pizza crust. But, that's the fun in this process, trying new formulations to see what happens. I have a really big art festival coming up, so it will be about two weeks before I can get the time to try this. I'll post results with pics. I't ought to be interesting to see the outcome. I had been thinking about using butter flavored Crisco to see what the crust would taste like. Maybe too much like a pie crust flavor for pizza? Who knows, but I think I'll give it a shot anyway
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: Chicago Bob on May 15, 2012, 04:08:47 PM
Got it. Sorry, I always just look at the first "weight" measurement.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on May 15, 2012, 09:25:01 PM
When I make the next pie, I will list every step, and update the dough calculator to reflect the amounts of ingredients. Not sure of the results, but it's going to fun to see what happens. I think the amount of oil I use this time may be over the top. It'll give me an idea of how much or how little I should use.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: Joe Redd on June 07, 2012, 07:50:14 PM
This does look great!  You guys are really scienetific, but can you decode the information in cups, tablespoons, etc.?  Thanks! //...
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: buceriasdon on June 08, 2012, 08:38:19 AM
Joe, Baker's percent is not difficult to understand and use. It is much more accurate than volume measurement and easier to communicate the recipe through the written word.  Here is a good explanation.
http://www.wildyeastblog.com/2008/03/22/bakers-percentage-1/
Don
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: GardenPizza on June 22, 2012, 07:22:46 PM
I have to say, the excitement and anticipation of making a cracker crust Pizza Inn style pizza from home on this thread was the driving force for me to join this forum.  ;-)   

I await with baited (pizza) breath the next update from Nick57 on the latest test results with further increased oil ratio.   

Nick, I’d also be interested in learning more about how you make the dough and cutting in with a rubber spatula by hand (not food processor).  In particular, do you dilute/proof the yeast in the warm water with sugar first, and then dump the wet into the flour with oil all at once?  I understand bringing the dough together - cutting in with a spatula and creating a ball, spritzing water on dry flour process. 

Many thanks.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: ThatsAmore on June 23, 2012, 02:41:30 AM
I have to say, the excitement and anticipation of making a cracker crust Pizza Inn style pizza from home on this thread was the driving force for me to join this forum.  ;-)   

That says it all...

Welcome
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: GardenPizza on June 23, 2012, 03:46:42 PM
Thanks Amore....

I made Nick's cracker crust adaptation last night (with 2.26 Tablespoons oil).  I first dissolved the .75 teaspoon of active dry yeast in the 6 Ounces of warm water (110 degrees) no sugar, then dumped the dissolved yeast and oil into the 13.4 Ounces of KABF and teaspoon of salt.  It came together easily by hand with a spatula.  It compressed well into a somewhat dry ball with some cracking on the top, but held together fine.  I placed in a sealed tupperware container and refrigerated. 

Before bed i checked on it.  It had risen noticably which i was surprised by given the low yeast ratio to flour.  There was condensation on the inside lid of the container (no surprise).  However, where the dough was exposed to air in the container, it started to create a calloused surface on the dough.  I probably should have oiled the container and turned the dough ball to avoid this.  I removed the dough and wrapped the ball in clear stretch wrap and returned it to the sealed container in the refrigerator. 

I'll be making the skin/crust tonight.  I'm concerned that the surface calloused areas will not hydrate the same as the rest of the dough.  I'll respost later. 

Nick, in your by hand process, do you dissolve the yeast in the measured warm water first, or dump the dry yeast into the flour - then the water and oil together?  I'm a little concerned about the rise in my dough in the refigerator given that i want a cracker thin crust versus a "risen" crust.  I know that DKM talks about the importance of suspending yeast in water first, if i'm understanding the context correctly.

Thanks all! 
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on June 24, 2012, 11:41:28 AM
I've been busy with the art festival circuit  as of late. I will make a pizza in the next week or so with the 3 tablespoons of oil to see what happens.
 
I proof the yeast in warm water then add it to the flour along with the oil. I mix the salt in the flour before adding the wet ingredients. I use my KA mixer bowl to hand mix the dough. I make a well in the flour and pour in the water and oil. I use the spatula to fold the flour into the liquid. It takes about a minute or so. I then dump the mixture onto the counter and form into a ball. If there is a lot of dry flour I lightly spray it with water to moisten it up a little bit. After I have the dough ball formed, I spray the mixer bowl with oil and lightly oil the dough. I cover the bowl with plastic wrap and put in the fridge for at least 24 hours. After a few hours I check the dough to see if it the skin is drying out. If it is, I lightly spray it with oil to keep the dough moist.
  
  I don't get much of a rise from the dough, usually the ball gets about 30% to 50% bigger by the time I take it out of the fridge. I let it get to room temp before rolling out the skin. Letting it warm up really improves the ease of rolling out. DKM, and Steve's tuts really got me on the right track for a cracker crust. It's hard to get great results using a regular stove. Mine gets to 550 degrees. It is a convection oven. I don't use the convection feature because it overcooks the topping before the crust is done. Using a stone, and par baking really makes a big difference in the crispness of the dough. I also let the crust cool to room temp after the par bake before adding the toppings. It makes quite an improvement on the cracker like texture. Let me know how your pie turns out, take pics if possible. Happy eating! BTW I tried a Pizza Hut thin and crispy last week. It  was not flaky or crackery. It's more like frozen dough, what a shame.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: GardenPizza on June 27, 2012, 02:46:10 PM
Thanks Nick, and apologies for the delay on my part getting back! 

To summarize, I had an outstanding result with a fantastic thin, cracker crust pizza that I could not stop eating.  It was absolutely excellent and a hit – light, crunchy, and perfect texture all around.  I experienced some trial and error with partial fail, so if folks are interested in the gritty details, read on, otherwise, this is definitely my go-to recipe and technique for thin crust pizza for all-time going forward!  So many thanks for sharing this!
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Before I set out to make the dough, I read through this thread and summarized all the various tricks and tips in a note to myself.  I weighed out the 13.4 Ounces KABF with 1 teaspoon Kosher salt.  Dissolved .75 teaspoon of active dry yeast in 6 Ounces of 110 degree water, then combined with 2.26 Tablespoons of oil into the dry.  The batch came together in a large bowl easily by hand using a spatula.  There was only a little dry flour in the bowl remaining, but I managed to squeeze and press into a somewhat dry ball that held together well on the counter.  I placed the ball in a sealed Tupperware container in the refrigerator.  Unfortunately, I missed the step to spritz the dough ball and the container with oil.
I checked on the dough about an hour later and naturally there was condensation on the inside of the lid.  There was already some rise which surprised me given the low yeast to flour ratio.  Where the dough was exposed to air inside the container, I noticed a hardened, calloused effect.   I wrapped the entire ball in plastic wrap, returned to the Tupperware container, sealed and back in the refrigerator overnight.

After 19 hours chilled, I removed the dough from the frig, unwrapped, and set directly on the counter for 2.5 hours loosely covered.  Meanwhile, I preheated the oven to 550 degrees with the pizza stone on the second rack position from the bottom.   

The dough rolled out easily to the thickness of a dime, but where the callouses in chilling had occurred, there was obvious scarring and texture difference.  The skin was really easy to handle in transfer from the counter to the pan which I was grateful for.  Looking at the situation, you think this could be a problem given the size and extreme thinness of the skin, but it was not.  I transferred the skin to a perforated 16 inch pizza pan, trimmed and docked. 

Placed pan on pizza stone and baked for 3 minutes.  Removed pan from oven and skin from pan.  Returned parbaked skin to pizza stone directly and baked for 2 minutes more.   This is where real disaster hit.  It had overbaked and half of the skin stuck to the pizza stone tearing away when I attempted to remove it from the oven.  In my panic, I instinctively turned off the oven. 

Working rapidly, I set out to use the leftover dough and trimmings that still remained.  I gathered into a ball and worked, worked, worked to roll it out to the thickness of a dime and it actually worked.  Transferred skin to the pan and tried again.  After 3 minutes it was dramatically puffy, but not nearly golden.  In my haste, I had forgotten to dock lightly and then noticed the oven was only at 380 degrees – I had forgotten to turn the oven back on to 550!  I ripped the oven to correct temp and pressed on  ;-)   Because of the reduced temp, it took longer to parbake, but I removed from the pan and placed skin directly on the stone until it started to show spots of golden color.  This is a very forgiving recipe folks. 

Removed skin from the stone without issue.  Pierced bubbles on the crust lightly.  Let cool to room temperature.  Brushed lightly with olive oil, a little sprinkle of salt, fresh grated parmesan, fresh mozz (drained and dried well with paper towels), paper thin slices of parma ham, dry kalamata olives chopped, and fresh basil leaves. 
Back into the oven this time at 425 degrees until toppings were hot and cheese was melted.  Absolutely fantastic folks.   I can hardly wait to make this again.  Tried only at home for starters, but this is definitely ready for prime time.

I had a challenge attaching iPhone photos to the forum directly, so I posted to Flickr instead.  Here they are:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/organize/?start_tab=one_set72157630269314182
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on June 30, 2012, 08:04:17 PM
 That's great! I'm glad you were successful. I have never had the crust stick to the stone, though I have heard other people on the forum have experienced this problem. I always make sure after the 2 or 3 minute first par bake, that the skin is dry and a little crispy before I try to remove it from the pan, that way it should not stick to the stone.. This is not rocket science, it's more of a fly by the seat of your pants thing. Though I wish it was rocket science, it would be a H... of a lot easier to get the pie you desire. You need to stay by the oven after putting the skin back in the oven after removing from the pan. A few seconds is all it takes to overcook the skin. Each oven is different, so you have to judge how the skin is doing, and pull it out when it just starts to get very lightly browned in spots or just before they appear.
 I know what you are talking about the skin looking funny if it dries out, it looks leathery. I have noticed that it does not adversely effect the crust too much. I always try to remember to oil the dough and the container, and check on it an hour or two later in case it needs more oil to keep dough wet.

 I understand that different flours take up water differently. I use KABF. Maybe it needs a little more water in what's called for in the "Dough Doctor's" recipe. I had a failure and the dough did not completely hydrate like I noted in the "Dough Doctor's Almost Fail" thread in the forum. If the dough has not come together, I lightly spray it with water. Just enough to moisten the dry flour. I have not had a failure since then.

 You have me fired up and wanting some pizza. So I will do one next week and post the results. I am using an additional tablespoon of oil to see the effects. Hopefully it won't be a complete disaster. I want to see the limits to the amount of oil till the dough does not work as a pizza crust and becomes more of a true cracker or matzo. I'll post pics and step by step procedure.
  
 I could not pull up the Flickr pics, and I am a member. I wanna see. Maybe you could transfer them from there to this site. BTW, great description on how you created your pie. I learned some things by reading your experiment. Keep on trying, pizza making is the ultimate quest of all foodies.



 
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: ThatsAmore on June 30, 2012, 10:23:27 PM
Hey GardenPizza,

Glad you had some success.

Not sure if I missed this, but did you put corn meal down on your stone to keep dough from sticking ?

Remember, it's the setbacks that ultimately excel the persistent.  ;)



Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: GardenPizza on June 30, 2012, 10:56:16 PM
Hey Nick and Amore, thanks for your encouragement and kind words. 

I've corrected the Flickr link, give this one a try  http://www.flickr.com/photos/buttercrumb_kim/sets/72157630269314182/ 

This was indeed a fun experiment and I learned a lot.  I'm hooked.  Can hardly wait to make again in July for a nice summer dinner on the patio (if summer ever arrives in the Northwest).  Nick, will be curious to hear your latest when you have time. 

Amore, I did not use cornmeal on the stone, but probably should have.  I figured it wouldn't be needed given the parbake in the perforated pizza pan as the first skin popped right out cleanly before moving it directly to the stone, but that was a foolish assumption on my part!  Perhaps the skin was still a little tacky or there may have been something on the stone from the previous use that bonded.  Perhaps it was simply the skin overcooked.  And yes, I'll be watching very closely next time! 

Thanks again for sharing your words of wisdom.  Good conversation and good food shared is a great memory. 
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on July 15, 2012, 09:20:35 PM
Well, I got some free time to make a pizza. I made the crust the same way as in the past, except I used 3.25 tablespoons of oil to see what effect it would have on the crust. I also docked the crust more thoroughly, the bubbles were getting a little extreme in their size. I noticed that the crust was a little softer than the last. It took less pressure to bite through, but was still crakery and very crisp. The non laminated areas were not chewy, they were nice, crisp, and not bread like. My tasters thought it was my best pizza to date. They loved the cracker like crust, and how lite it was. I must agree with them, and I was surprised it turned out so well. I don't think I'll try to add more oil to see what happens, I think I have reached that limit, besides, I like how this one turned out, and I am sticking with this recipe. I have posted pics of the process.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on July 15, 2012, 09:21:33 PM
I have added the yeast, water, and oil to the flour.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on July 15, 2012, 09:23:05 PM
I have folded the flour by hand into the liquid, and this is it after I dumped it onto the counter.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on July 15, 2012, 09:32:05 PM
As you can tell, it still has a lot of dry flour. As usual, I spritzed it with just enough water for the ball to stick together.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on July 15, 2012, 09:35:00 PM
I dumped the ball into the oiled KA mixer bowl, and made sure I got a good coverage of oil all over the ball. This is the dough after a 24 hour rise in the fridge.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on July 15, 2012, 09:37:06 PM
I rolled the dough out to the thickness of a dime. I think the added oil eased the rolling, plus, I let the dough get up to room temp before rolling.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on July 15, 2012, 09:39:09 PM
This is after the par bake. The bubbles are a little smaller than my last two pies.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on July 15, 2012, 09:40:29 PM
Topped and ready to bake. I used Italian sausage, mozz, mushrooms, black olives, and diced tomatoes.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on July 15, 2012, 09:42:02 PM
I baked the pie at 425 degrees for about 10 minutes. I've just removed it from the oven.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on July 15, 2012, 09:43:06 PM
Nice crispy slices with a little lamination.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on July 15, 2012, 09:44:46 PM
Good browning on the bottom. This was one of my best so far, and I wanted to keep eating it. But. I thought the leftovers would make for a great breakfast.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: Chicago Bob on July 15, 2012, 10:29:33 PM
That looks really good Nick...you are making some nice pies in this style, to be sure!
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: ThatsAmore on July 16, 2012, 12:10:04 AM
Hey, now wait just a darn minute .... you didn't save me a slice!

Looks great !!!

 :pizza: :chef:
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on July 16, 2012, 11:40:07 AM
Thanks! I tried using more oil as I was going along in this thread. I seem like the last amount of oil I used in my last pie. Though, I've been thinking about cutting Crisco into the dough instead of oil. I've seen on the forum that it might make for a more flaky crust. I also saw an America's Test Kitchen where they made a Chicago style deep dish pizza that was flaky. They rolled the dough out into a square and spread room temp butter on it. The dough was then rolled up like a Cinnamon roll, the cut in half and shaped into a ball. When it was rolled out and cooked, it had lots of layers that were flaky.
So, I think I will try this when I make my next pie. I'll post the results on this thread. Now, I am off for some leftover pizza, yummy!
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: Chicago Bob on July 16, 2012, 11:42:52 AM
I believe that is a French technique for making puff pastry...filo dough too?
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on July 16, 2012, 05:31:35 PM
It's like making pie dough also. Except that in pie dough the butter is not spread onto the dough but rather thin pieces of butter are placed between the layers of the dough. My last pizza, was not like pie crust, but I think if I had used more oil it would have had that texture. I think I have reached the limit for pizza crust, and if I used more oil it may be more like a real pie crust. Not what I was looking for. I don't think I can achieve the crust I am looking for using a home oven and store bought ingredients, but I am happy with what I have come up with so far. My friends and tasters love it, and it is better than the thin crust pizzas I can get in T town. Learning things that the Master pie makers have shared on this forum, I can make a pie that I can look forward to making and eating. My heartfelt thanks to them for sharing and their kindness in helping newcomers in learning the ropes.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: Jimmy V on July 16, 2012, 10:46:10 PM
Nick.. can you post the ingredients in  Oz.  table spoons, teaspoons etc.   ?
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: GardenPizza on July 18, 2012, 08:03:11 PM
Nick, you are an individual after my own heart - pizza for breakfast, yes!!!

By the way, great trick for reheating pizza (for breakfast or otherwise) if you haven't already tried it....  Place a slice of leftover cold pizza in a non-stick pan (I love Swiss Diamond for this) on lowest stove heat.  Cover with a lid slightly ajar.  Check it after 5 or so minutes and voila, perfectly restored pizza as great as the night before. 

I am going to have to try the 3.25T oil variation next.  Thanks for sharing.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on July 18, 2012, 08:47:36 PM
Yes. I need to try that. I usually reheat in the stove. I have heard that using a pan instead of the oven helps in keeping the crust crisper than in the oven. I have noticed that reheating in the oven the the crust is not as crisp as the day before. Of course a cold slice of pizza sometimes hits the spot. I think my next experiment I will use butter and create several layers by rolling and folding the dough. I like how my last pie turned out, but I think this would be fun to try. My first try at pizza was Neapolitan. I found the Forno Bravo website and I was on my way to pizza heaven. Of course I don't have a WFO, and my oven only gets to 550 degrees, but I learned a lot. I don't remember how I got to this forum, but it was the luckiest day of my life. I am a pizza junkie, and proud of it.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: ThatsAmore on July 18, 2012, 09:49:19 PM
Yes. I need to try that. I usually reheat in the stove. I have heard that using a pan instead of the oven helps in keeping the crust crisper than in the oven. I have noticed that reheating in the oven the the crust is not as crisp as the day before. Of course a cold slice of pizza sometimes hits the spot. I think my next experiment I will use butter and create several layers by rolling and folding the dough. I like how my last pie turned out, but I think this would be fun to try. My first try at pizza was Neapolitan. I found the Forno Bravo website and I was on my way to pizza heaven. Of course I don't have a WFO, and my oven only gets to 550 degrees, but I learned a lot. I don't remember how I got to this forum, but it was the luckiest day of my life. I am a pizza junkie, and proud of it.

I didn't notice until the other day AFTER posting in response to you that you're in Tulsa as well .... Hey Neighbor !!!  8)
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on July 19, 2012, 03:33:43 PM
Yep, I reside in Tulsa OK. Feels more like Death Valley, 108 degrees tomorrow so says the TV weather guy. Do you know of any pizza joints that make a good cracker crust in the local area? Have you tried Andolini's yet? I  thought it was one of best pies I have had in a while. Not cracker, I think they said it was like Neapolitan. I think they sell their dough balls for $4.00 I like to make my own dough, but in a pinch I think it would make a good pizza at home. I do like the Ken's pizza they sell at Mazzio's, but the crust is not as crisp as I would like. Pizza Hut has jumped the shark several years ago, their thin and crispy may be thin, but no way crispy.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: Kamado Pizza on July 19, 2012, 03:37:29 PM
I'm new here and these cracker crust threads are what lured me in.  Nick, I'm going to give your method a try tomorrow.  I did notice that you mentioned trying Crisco instead of oil.  In their commercials, they always say it makes flakier crusts.  I have some that I've used to season my stones and other cast iron cookware.  Is there a conversion for oil to Crisco?
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: Chicago Bob on July 19, 2012, 04:33:16 PM
I'm new here and these cracker crust threads are what lured me in.  Nick, I'm going to give your method a try tomorrow.  I did notice that you mentioned trying Crisco instead of oil.  In their commercials, they always say it makes flakier crusts.  I have some that I've used to season my stones and other cast iron cookware.  Is there a conversion for oil to Crisco?
Yes there certainly is..sorry but I can't recall off the top of my head.
Try a forum search....it is your friend!!
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: Pete-zza on July 19, 2012, 05:20:17 PM
Is there a conversion for oil to Crisco?

Kamado Pizza,

The conversion of oil to a shortening like Crisco is easy. The oil can be replaced by an equal weight of Crisco. If you use butter or margarine, an adjustment to the formula hydration has to be made because both of those products include water.

Peter
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: Kamado Pizza on July 19, 2012, 08:48:33 PM
Kamado Pizza,

The conversion of oil to a shortening like Crisco is easy. The oil can be replaced by an equal weight of Crisco. If you use butter or margarine, an adjustment to the formula hydration has to be made because both of those products include water.

Peter


Thanks! 
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on July 19, 2012, 10:10:13 PM
  That's what I have read, go by weight whether it is liquid or solid. I wonder what the butter flavored Crisco would taste like? You could add some garlic powder to the dough and the crust might taste like garlic bread. Hmm.. Maybe that's over the top. I think I will try the Crisco on my next pie. I was thinking of layering the dough with butter, maybe I'll use Crisco instead, butter does contain water, and that would effect the water ratio to flour.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: Jimmy V on July 30, 2012, 10:22:17 PM
Nick....heres a pic of my cracker crust.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: Bigfoot21075 on July 31, 2012, 10:21:19 AM
WOW Jimmy V - Looks GREAT!

Did you dock that dough? If you did was it only one pass with the docker or several? Looks DARN YUMMY!
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on July 31, 2012, 03:22:29 PM
Looks better than my last pie. Very thin to say the least. I need a pie fix pretty soon. Nothing more satisfying than a wonderful homemade pizza for dinner or anytime.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: ThatsAmore on July 31, 2012, 07:50:16 PM
Looks better than my last pie. Very thin to say the least. I need a pie fix pretty soon. Nothing more satisfying than a wonderful homemade pizza for dinner or anytime.

Do you know a good recipe that cooks at 110°F?   :-D

This heat is getting crazy.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: Chicago Bob on July 31, 2012, 08:10:09 PM
Do you know a good recipe that cooks at 110°F?   :-D

This heat is getting crazy.
I think I once heard about one.....ya can't put sausage on it though if I remember correctly... ;)
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: mykall on July 31, 2012, 10:27:20 PM
Do you know a good recipe that cooks at 110°F?   :-D


An egg on the pavement??
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: Chicago Bob on July 31, 2012, 10:37:44 PM
An egg on the pavement??
We are talking about pizza egg head... ;)  jus kidding with you mykall!!!   See, happy face.. ;D
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on September 03, 2012, 08:20:38 PM
I picked the hottest day this week to make a pizza, 108 degrees in downtown T town. After reading a few comments on the thread, I tried something different. I used Crisco instead of olive oil, and let the dough sit in the fridge for 24 hours, then on the counter top for another 24 before making the skin. Well, the results were not what I expected. As you can tell by the picture, the dough looks more like a Pizza Vera Napoletana recipe. The dough seemed really moist
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on September 03, 2012, 08:22:30 PM
The dough has really risen, a lot wetter than the 24 hour fridge rise dough.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: ThatsAmore on September 03, 2012, 08:25:47 PM
Did you end up cooking it or not ?
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on September 03, 2012, 08:26:18 PM
The dough was very easy to roll out. Very extensible, just like a pizza Vera. It did not feel like regular cracker crust when rolling out. The dough was very sticky, not dry like my cracker.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on September 03, 2012, 08:27:35 PM
This is after my 5 minute par bake. Lots of small bubbles.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on September 03, 2012, 08:28:55 PM
I topped with homemade sauce, mozz, Italian sausage, shrooms, olives, and diced maters.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on September 03, 2012, 08:30:08 PM
Hot ready to eat, crust seems a little soft and flimsy, not like a cracker.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on September 03, 2012, 08:31:02 PM
Nice thin slices, Crispy with a little chew. Not as good as my last.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on September 03, 2012, 08:35:51 PM
Could not tell any improvement in flavor by letting the dough rise for 48 hours. I was not very pleased by the outcome. I think the dough became to bready and wet with the long rise. It was more like an Italian thin crust pizza, very delicate and a little crispness. It was not what I was hoping for. I did make a major mistake. I should have used Crisco, and the regular rise time, to see the difference the between it and using olive oil. I'll do that on my next pizza and post the results.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on September 03, 2012, 08:41:29 PM
That'sAmore! Do you know of any place in T town that makes a good cracker crust pie?
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: ThatsAmore on September 03, 2012, 08:45:52 PM
That'sAmore! Do you know of any place in T town that makes a good cracker crust pie?

LOL, Nope that is how I got here

Do you ?
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: Pete-zza on September 03, 2012, 08:50:06 PM
Nick,

I'm pretty certain that the reason why your results didn't turn out as well as your prior efforts was because of the 24 hours of fermentation at a high room temperature with 0.75% yeast. With a formula hydration of 45%, the fermentation would have been modest while the dough was refrigerated. However, when you then allowed the dough to ferment at room temperature for another 24 hours, what most likely happened is that the protease enzymes attacked the gluten structure and damaged it, causing the water in the dough to be released from its bond and to make the dough wet and clammy. In effect, the dough was overfermented. I tend to doubt that using the Crisco was at fault. Had you dramatically reduced the amount of yeast, the dough might have survived the 24-hour room temperature fermentation.

Peter
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on September 03, 2012, 08:58:45 PM
That sounds right to me. I was kinda worried when I tried it. I saw a post on the thread and the results looked pretty good, and it was a cracker recipe. I thought the extra time in warmer temps, would cause to yeast to take off. I don't think I will go for the long rise again, unless I cut way back on the yeast per your suggestion. Cool temps this weekend, I have an outdoor art show downtown this weekend, I do not want to melt. I could use a nice Merlot right now, just like this painting I just finished.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: Chicago Bob on September 03, 2012, 08:59:42 PM
Nice thin slices, Crispy with a little chew. Not as good as my last.
Nick, your pizza looks really good and the way you describe the crust sure sounds a lot like old school PH thin an crispy. Puzzling about the lack of improved dough flavor with all that ferment time....
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: Pete-zza on September 03, 2012, 09:05:10 PM
Nick,

You are quite a talented guy. Are you a professional artist or is painting another hobby? Either way, your painting is very nice.

Peter
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on September 03, 2012, 09:22:13 PM
Thanks! Yes I am a infamous staving artist. Well, not starving so much. Been doing different forms of art all my life, though at one time I helped install the first MRI machine in the states. It was so cutting edge it did not have FDA approval yet.  I'm a real technical geek and can just about repair anything made by man. I think that helps me with my cooking and creating recipes with very specific steps.  This is another piece I finished last week, it's of a villa on lake Como in Italy.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: Pete-zza on September 03, 2012, 09:35:27 PM
Nick,

Also very impressive. Do you have a website and sell your paintings? And when are you going to make a painting of one of your cracker-style pizzas? ;D

Peter
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on September 03, 2012, 10:16:02 PM
I don't have a site yet. But, I am on brushstroke.com. It's a community of artists, that show off some of their art. Just click on my name in the artist list to see some of my creations. I do Mayfest every year, and the Blue Dome Festival, plus lot of others throughout the year. I display in several galleries in the area, plus donate several pieces for charity. It's been tough times for most artists, people are holding on to their money. I sell many different art products besides my original art. I sell magnets, mouse pads, and prints of my art work. People want to buy something at art festivals, so I give them an inexpensive price. Most of those are purchased as gifts they can give to loved ones. It's a market that is always changing. What is hot one year is not the next, so I am always changing my subject to fit the taste of the consumer. It sounds like I am selling myself out. Not. I like variety. One of the greatest artists I know, told me to paint what the people want, but paint it the way you want. You'll be true to yourself, plus be able to have a slice or two of pizza and a beer. well maybe not the last , but I like that.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: holdem on October 03, 2012, 02:58:22 PM
Question about the rise of the dough. With the crumb type texture dough does it rise much? Or not as much as say a NY style dough?
Thanks.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: stephenfield79 on October 03, 2012, 03:04:28 PM
hi how do i get jimmy v cracker style pizza recipe, not sure how to do this thanks steve
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: Pete-zza on October 03, 2012, 03:20:11 PM
hi how do i get jimmy v cracker style pizza recipe, not sure how to do this thanks steve

Steve,

I believe the cracker style pizza recipe that Jimmy V used is the one at http://www.pizzamaking.com/thincrust.php. However, if you use the Advanced search feature and use "cracker"(without the quotes) as the search term and Jimmy V as the user, you should be able to find all of Jimmy V's posts on the cracker style.

Peter
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on January 11, 2013, 02:21:19 PM
I've gotten a few questions on the finer details and for my final recipe for  my cracker crust. So, this is a reply on my latest request for more info. This highlights of main procedures for making the crust. It's still best to read the whole thread, but this is a quick overview of the procedure.

Yeah there is a lot of info on the thread. My main goal was to experiment with different techniques to perfect a crisp and flaky cracker crust like Pizza Hut's from the 60's and early 70's. Just for fun I picked up a thin and crispy pizza from Pizza Hut last week. It was more like thin and crappy. It reminded me of frozen pre made pizza dough. It was thin, but dense and chewy. Another let down.
  Use the dough calculator I have on page 1 of the thread.  The only modification to it is to use 3.5 teaspoons of oil instead of 1.13 teaspoons of oil.

1... If the dough ball has a lot of dry flour after hand mixing, spray with just enough water to form a cohesive ball. Use as little water possible to achieve this.
2... I use active dry yeast. I proof the yeast in the water before adding it to the dough mixture.
3...Make sure to let the dough sit in the fridge for at least 24 hours, then warm up on the counter for 2 to 3 hours.
4... Roll the dough out to the thickness of a dime. You will have a lot of leftover dough, which you can use to make a personal pizza if ya want. Be sure to dock the crust.
5...You do need a pizza stone to get a crisp and crackery crust.
6... Par bake the crust for 2 to 3 minutes in the pan on the stone. Make sure the stone has been heated for an hour at your stove's highest setting, mine goes to 550. Remove crust from pan and place directly on the stone till you just start seeing some light brown spots on the skin, about 2 to 3 minutes.
7... Let the crust cool down to room temp on a cooling rack before topping. Adjust the oven temp to 425 degrees.
8... Place the topped skin directly  on the stone and cook till cheese is bubbly and crust has browned.
9... Place on a cooling rack and let it rest a few minutes before slicing.
10... Enjoy!!
11...  To reheat, place in non stick pan on the stove. Use medium heat and a lid to trap the heat. The pan method works best for cracker crust, as it keeps the crust form getting soggy like it does in the stove.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: Chicago Bob on January 11, 2013, 02:59:02 PM
Thank you Nick...you have put a lot of thought and time into this and it is greatly appreciated.  :chef:
Bob
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on January 11, 2013, 03:17:27 PM
Thanks Bob!! I like what I have achieved so far. But, I am still looking for the holy grail in cracker crusts. I used the best of what the members have share There are a lot of amazing pie makers here. I thank them all for their and yours help and time. I've been trying to make NY style lately. No too bad so far, though it is a steep learning curve. I will post a thread when I feel I have something that is close the NY heavenly pies.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on January 19, 2013, 07:34:59 PM
One of the visitor's  to the forum was having problems with my cracker technique. So, I decided to make a pizza again and see if I could replicate my results again. It turned out the same as my last try, if not a bit better. I think his two main problems was that his dough was too hydrated, and the skin was not thin enough.  I took pics of the procedure. This is the dough after the 24 hour rise in the fridge.
 
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on January 19, 2013, 07:36:42 PM
This is the skin after I rolled it out. I used a dime and credit card to illustrate the thickness of the skin.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on January 19, 2013, 07:38:13 PM
Skin in the pan, and I docked it pretty heavy.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on January 19, 2013, 07:39:09 PM
This is after the par bake. Nice bubbles and a little browning.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on January 19, 2013, 07:39:43 PM
Topped and into the oven.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on January 19, 2013, 07:40:18 PM
 Finished pie.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on January 19, 2013, 07:41:20 PM
Nice thin slices with a little bit of lamination.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on January 19, 2013, 07:44:21 PM
It was very light and crispy. It had a very light bite, was not dense or chewy. I think this is a far as I want to go with cracker crust. It was a very tasty pie, and I don't think I can do any better. Of course I might try beer instead of water next time, Maybe I could get a yeasty flavored crust.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: Chicago Bob on January 19, 2013, 08:05:21 PM
Another classic looking winner as usual Nick!  :)
Great job on the write up/post too...visual aids an all. ;D This should help get your friend up to speed.
A yeasty/beer crust would be great man(circa 70's PH)....hope you will give it a go one day soon. Thanks for your primo cracker experiments.
Bob
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: Mad_Ernie on January 19, 2013, 09:37:57 PM
Excellent results, Nick!  The pics do a nice job of showing off your handiwork.

I was instantly reminded of the old PH thin-n-crispy pizzas ... back when they were good.  ;D

-ME
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: ThatsAmore on January 20, 2013, 12:29:12 AM
Awesome looking pies
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on January 20, 2013, 04:38:08 PM
Thanks guys! I had had some inquiries on my procedure. So I decided to try it again. I wanted to see if my procedure was right or if I was giving out the wrong info. I followed the dough calculator, and I ended up with a wonderful pie. I have been asked how I came up with it. This was not at all my own idea, but was the combining of several great ideas from the master pizza makers on the forum. Without their help and tips I would never have come up with a crust that I love. Thanks to everyone here for their help. By the way ThatsAmore, Leons on Brookside has a pretty nice thin crust pizza. I  have had it twice and enjoyed both times.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on March 10, 2013, 06:37:58 PM
I was sharing ideas with another pizza lover, and he told me about a pizza joint that used AP flour and lard. He said it was very tasty. Since I was out of KABF, and had some KAAP flour I thought I would give it a try. I used the same ingredient amounts as the past pies. I let the dough work in the fridge for 2 days instead of my normal 1 day. I also used Centro crushed tomatoes  for the sauce. I drained the liquid, and  added Fennel seeds and Italian seasonings to the tomatoes. I used my stick blender to turn the tomatoes into a puree. Cooked the pie the same way as usual.
 The crust was very good. It was not as cracker like as my last. It was more like Domino's or Little Caesar's thin crust pizza. It had a softer snap to the bite than my other pizzas. It was more dense but not chewy. It was quite good. I will use AP flour again when in a pinch. It was still better than most chain pizzas.
A NOTE: I said to follow the dough calculator in the first page of the thread. I made a mistake on the oil amount. It should be 3.5 tablespoons of oil, not 3.5 teaspoons. I have noted this change later in the thread, but I had told people to follow the amount in the calculator. I have used 3.5 tablespoons for the last 3 or four pies in this thread. It makes a lot of difference in how lite and crakery the crust is.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on March 10, 2013, 06:42:09 PM
I used Centro tomatoes for the sauce with Italian seasonings, and some fresh crushed black peppercorns. I layered the sauce on the skin then added Parm cheese then half of the Mozz cheese, then mushrooms, olives, grilled chicken, and then the rest of the Mozz. It tasted wonderful, and no gummy dough layer.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on March 10, 2013, 06:43:47 PM
Nice thin slices.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on March 10, 2013, 06:45:12 PM
I docked the skin pretty heavy, but still got some nice bubbles and lamination.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on March 10, 2013, 06:48:00 PM
Nice browning on the bottom. I was surprised how different the crust turned out. But, it was a very good tasting pizza and crust. I will use AP flour again for a cracker crust.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: dboersma on April 17, 2013, 12:23:11 PM
I've been making another cracker crust recipe from this site
http://www.pizzamaking.com/thincrust.php (http://www.pizzamaking.com/thincrust.php)

A few things to note is I have a sheeter and I fold it about 5 times through the sheeter flouring each layer before the next fold.  I am able to layer it into several layers so it puffs up to about 5mm - 10mm thick with many crackery layers.  I want to par bake it so I can make frozen pizza for later use.  I par bake it at about 500 deg F for about 6 minutes.  They come out amazing.  However after cooling for several hours on the wire rack about 20% or so of them will slowly develop cracks all over them rendering them useless.  Upon trying to use them they usually crack in half or into several pieces.  If I do manage to top them they will for sure crack into tiny bits upon trying to cut them.  The other 80% come out great!

Any ideas on what I am doing wrong???
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on April 17, 2013, 12:44:41 PM
I am thinking that the skins are drying out too much and they start getting brittle. Since the skin has several layers, the layers maybe drying out at different times causing stress on the skin creating the cracking. Not sure if this makes sense. I have left my skins out up to an hour and have had no problems. Of course I don't layer mine.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: Chicago Bob on April 17, 2013, 01:14:18 PM
I've been making another cracker crust recipe from this site
http://www.pizzamaking.com/thincrust.php (http://www.pizzamaking.com/thincrust.php)

A few things to note is I have a sheeter and I fold it about 5 times through the sheeter flouring each layer before the next fold.  I am able to layer it into several layers so it puffs up to about 5mm - 10mm thick with many crackery layers.  I want to par bake it so I can make frozen pizza for later use.  I par bake it at about 500 deg F for about 6 minutes.  They come out amazing.  However after cooling for several hours on the wire rack about 20% or so of them will slowly develop cracks all over them rendering them useless.  Upon trying to use them they usually crack in half or into several pieces.  If I do manage to top them they will for sure crack into tiny bits upon trying to cut them.  The other 80% come out great!

Any ideas on what I am doing wrong???
Check to see if the damaged ones keep showing up in the same area where you are airing them...you probably are catching a draft from somewhere. Alternatively, drape a large piece of plastic wrap over the entire area. Use something thick(sheeting) that you can fold up and reuse for this purpose.

Bob
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: wrm2012 on April 20, 2013, 12:42:10 AM
1 pound (or about 3 1/2 cups) flour
3/4 cup warm water
3 tablespoon Olive oil
1 1/2 teaspoon active dry yeast
1 1/2 teaspoon sugar
1 teaspoon salt

Put in the fridge for about 18 hours.  Took it out and let it sit for about 2 and a half hours.  Rolled it out as thin as I could get it and pre baked it in a 16 inch pan at 550 degrees for about 5 min.  OOPS forgot to dock it so forked it and pushed down the big bubble.  Let it cool and then I topped it. Sauce, little bit of cheese, Pepperoni, black olives, and then the rest of the cheese.  Then back in at 450 degrees, for about 10 min.  Turned out great.  I mean it was just about perfect.  I even made a small pizza with the left over dough and that one turned out great as well.  I even docked that one. I do have a stone but I skipped that step and with how this turned out I do not see myself using one anytime soon for this recipe.  Man this is one great forum.  I never made a pizza before I came here and already I’ve made a Chicago DD, a Chicago thin, a greek, and this one all of witch were better than most places people pay big money for.  Even my flop of a NY style pizza was still pretty darn tasty. 
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: derricktung on April 20, 2013, 06:33:36 AM
My second attempt at a crack crust... still not there yet.

I think a few things:

1.  Need to thin the dough more.
2.  Need to dock the dough more... (I got a very large bubble in the middle on the parbake).
3.  Need to leave it in the oven for longer for the parbake and final cook.  (Too use to Neo-Neapolitan style in my mind lately, I think I pulled it too early.)
4.  Wife says I was too stingy with the cheese.  She's the wife.  She's always right.   :-D

Any other advice?  Is the bubble an issue of docking?

Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on April 20, 2013, 10:13:04 AM
The skin looks too thick. I roll mine out to the thickness of a dime or credit card. I don't have a docker, so I use a fork. I do dock the dough pretty heavy. If I see huge bubbles during the par bake, I use a fork to pop them during the par bake. If you wait to do that after the par bake, the skin is too brittle and it just cracks or you get holes in the bubble where you pop them. I par bake the skin in the pan placed on the stone for about 3 or so minutes. I pull it out of the oven just when I start seeing some light brown spots. Your skin looks like it was very dry when it was rolled out. Looks like a lot of cracking a breaking. Make sure to let the skin warm up on the counter for a couple of hours before rolling out.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: derricktung on April 20, 2013, 01:15:54 PM
The skin looks too thick. I roll mine out to the thickness of a dime or credit card. I don't have a docker, so I use a fork. I do dock the dough pretty heavy. If I see huge bubbles during the par bake, I use a fork to pop them during the par bake. If you wait to do that after the par bake, the skin is too brittle and it just cracks or you get holes in the bubble where you pop them. I par bake the skin in the pan placed on the stone for about 3 or so minutes. I pull it out of the oven just when I start seeing some light brown spots. Your skin looks like it was very dry when it was rolled out. Looks like a lot of cracking a breaking. Make sure to let the skin warm up on the counter for a couple of hours before rolling out.

Nick,  thanks for the tips!  The skin was definitely warm (2.5 hours at room temp) before I rolled it out.  I definitely have to roll it thinner though... completely underestimated how thin to roll (likely thickness of 2 quarters or 2.5 quarters...) 

You go straight to stone after the parbake, correct?  No more pan?

I may up the oil content to help create a more hydrated skin... I believe I was 4% before?
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on April 20, 2013, 04:40:48 PM
I have used more oil and have found the crust begins to become more like pie crust than cracker. I like between 3 and 3.5 tablespoons of oil for the recipe I use for a 14 inch pie. I would up the water a little, but not by much, maybe a tablespoon or less. The flour I use is KA bread flour. If you are using a different flour you may have to change the hydration a little to compensate. After the par bake I let the skin cool for about 10 minutes before I top the skin, then I place it directly on the stone for the finish.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: dboersma on April 30, 2013, 06:39:54 AM
I am thinking that the skins are drying out too much and they start getting brittle. Since the skin has several layers, the layers maybe drying out at different times causing stress on the skin creating the cracking. Not sure if this makes sense. I have left my skins out up to an hour and have had no problems. Of course I don't layer mine.

I suspect this is the case too.  I have been doing some mass testing as of recent still not 100% but I have managed to get a better texture (IMHO).  I sheeted it less times but at a thicker thickness and it came out wonderful.  HOWEVER my first problem was the outside was nice and crispy and the inside somewhat soft.  So I reduced the temperature and increased the cooking time.  (Sounds like the right approach??)  Seems to have helped but not quite enough.  Also the crust cracked as usual after applying the toppings and re-cooking so I changed the par-bake time to a little less and now it's too soft but no cracking.  Maybe an even lower temperature and longer cooking time to have it a little more evenly crispy all the way through??  I'm at 480 bottom temperature 450 top now.  What do you figure?  I'm also going to try an increase in the oil content as I am using about 3% in the recipe, but I see in this thread it uses about 8%....
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on April 30, 2013, 04:49:56 PM
Are you weighing the ingredients by weight or by volume. When I first made my cracker crusts the doughs had less hydration and the edges would crack. I added about teaspoon of water and that stopped the cracking. Are you letting the dough rest in the fridge for at least 24 hours? I use about 3 to 3.5 tablespoons of oil for my recipe. It seems to make the dough easier to stretch, and makes the skin  feel a little softer. The oil seems to make the skin crisper when cooked. I par bake the skin in a cutter for 3 minutes on a 500 degree stone, then remove it from the pan and place it on the stone   for about 2 minutes. I let the skin cool to room temp which takes about ten minutes. While the skin is cooling I let the stove cool down to about 425 degrees before pLacing the topped pie back on the stone. I think the cooling of the skin, and the lowering of the bake temp helps dry out the crust because of the longer cook time. You might try making a pie without layering the skin. I get plenty of lamination and layering without it. If that works OK, then go back and try the layering again.
I know other members layer their skins and don't have your problem. You should check out some other threads on the cracker crust thread, maybe they are doing something different to get great results. Good luck, let me know how your results go.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: dboersma on May 05, 2013, 08:31:23 PM
Ingredients are done by weight.  I am making another batch right now.  Dough rests a full 24 hours in the fridge.  I suspect that the problem is drying out too much so I need to find a balance of thin enough to be crispy but thick enough to have layers and some texture but not be soft in the middle.   I will post my results in a few days.  My pizza's are personal size 9".
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: Chicago Bob on May 05, 2013, 08:48:19 PM
Ingredients are done by weight.  I am making another batch right now.  Dough rests a full 24 hours in the fridge.  I suspect that the problem is drying out too much so I need to find a balance of thin enough to be crispy but thick enough to have layers and some texture but not be soft in the middle.   I will post my results in a few days.  My pizza's are personal size 9".
Have you ever made a cracker with a same day dough? Might be worth a try....
Unless you have some sort of phenomenal, awesome recipe....cracker crusts are pretty much just a vehicle(with crunch :)) to deliver some phenomenal tasting sauce and toppings. ;)

Flame away.... ;D

Bob
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: 71 Goatman on May 11, 2013, 09:43:38 AM
I cooked up the nick57 cracker crust last night.  Mixed up the dough on Wednesday night, all done by weight I used 16 oz of flour and the appropriate % of the remaining ingredients, including 3.25 TBSP of oil.  Removed the dough from the refrig yesterday 2 hrs prior to rolling out.  Rolled out (2 crusts) nice and thin, the dough was great to work with.  Had preheated my oven and stone for 1 hr @ 550 degrees, par baked the crust on a pan with the holes in it.  I actually par baked for 5 min. @ 550.  3 minutes, then turned the crust over and an additional 2 minutes.  I had made two crusts, after par baking both, I added toppings, meanwhile the oven was cooling off to 425.  Popped them in one at a time for 11 minutes each, middle shelf of the oven, on  the pan which I set on the stone.  As I removed each pizza I would let it rest on a cooling rack for several minutes prior to cutting.  All I can say is WOW!!  This is the thin crust I have been searching for all my life!  Crunchy all the way to the middle, nice air pockets, nice leoparding on the bottom.  Wish I would have taken pictures.  The other thing I truly enjoy about this crust is my wife and I were really able to load up with ingredients and it still came out nice and crisp edge to middle.

My tip: The second pie I finished it by sliding it off the pan and directly on the stone the last 3 minutes (middle shelf), definitely finished off the crust a little nicer than the first one.

Great forum - Thanks for all tips, experimenting and feedback nick57 and everyone else.

71 Goatman  ;D
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on May 11, 2013, 10:00:24 AM
It's always fun to make a pie at home that you like. Sounds like you have your cracker crust recipe down. I par bake the skin for 3 minutes in the pan, then I remove it from the pan and onto the stone for another 2 or 3 minutes to get the crust crisper and to remove more moisture. After I top the skin, I place it directly onto the stone till the toppings cook and I get some nice browning on the crust, about 3 to 5 minutes. I also place the pie on a cooling rack for a few minutes after cooking so the steam escapes and the bottom of the crust does not get soggy. I haven't make a cracker crust in a while, I'm trying my hand at NY style, but now after reading your post, my next pie may have to be a cracker.  Congrats on your success at making a great cracker!
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: Chicago Bob on May 11, 2013, 11:11:06 AM
Yep, these posts make me want to whip up a good old cracker too.  :chef:

Hey Goatman...you don't own a '71 GTO by chance do you?  8)

Bob
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: 71 Goatman on May 11, 2013, 11:08:06 PM
Chi-Town Bob,

Yes I do in fact own a 71 GTO, after a 3 year resto with some mods - finished in June of 2009, although you are never really done.  I have driven it on 3 power tours and continue to have a blast driving it each summer.  I like the car because you rarely see one at a show, on the road etc. 

I will post some pics for you to drool over  :drool:

Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: Chicago Bob on May 11, 2013, 11:16:48 PM
Chi-Town Bob,

Yes I do in fact own a 71 GTO, after a 3 year resto with some mods - finished in June of 2009, although you are never really done.  I have driven it on 3 power tours and continue to have a blast driving it each summer.  I like the car because you rarely see one at a show, on the road etc. 

I will post some pics for you to drool over  :drool:
Thanks Judge...4-spd. ?
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on May 12, 2013, 10:28:03 AM
Hey, I had 2 GTO's! One was a 1965 silver 389 hydraulic convertible top with  chrome dashboard and 3 speed auto floor shift.  My other was a 1967 with a 4 speed straight gate floor shifter, headers,  3 carbs, 2 500 outboards and 1 250 inboard. The engine was board out to a 401 cubic incher. It looked like a sleeper. Fastest I ever got it to was close to 140 mph, and with all three carbs open I would get 1 mile per gallon  of gas. Of course at that time gas was only 65 cents a gallon.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: 71 Goatman on May 17, 2013, 10:38:02 PM
Very nice Nick, you have had some nice toys.

Speaking of MPG, mine will get anywhere from 8 - 16mpg depending how hard you are on the throttle.  Just filled up with premium yesterday $4.56/gallon OUCH! But hey can you really put a price on SMILES PER GALLON (SPG)?  No

BTW - Was at Target in Woodbury, MN and they had 5lb bags of KABF, could not believe it.  Going to try the crust again this weekend with KABF, just getting ready to mix it up.................Wow my Friday nights are exciting.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: Chicago Bob on May 17, 2013, 11:30:37 PM
Please Lord...where are some pics of these GTO's!  :drool:
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on June 02, 2013, 05:00:52 PM
Boy, I wish I had some pics of my Goats. I saw a pristine 1965 like mine go for almost a quarter mil at auction. I paid $300 for mine and then traded it for $1000 stereo system, that's 1973 dollars.
 Well, I have been craving a cracker crust lately. I blew the first rule of experimenting, make one change at a time. I made several. I have liked my past pies, but still not what I was wanting. The crusts were very crisp but seemed too crunchy as compared to what I remember about PH pies. I remember them being crispy but had a light soft bite. Mine seemed a little harder till this one. This one seemed pretty close.
This is a list of the changes.
1 I used less spritzing of water to get the dough ball to hold together. The dough ball really seemed dry, but did not have any dry flour after forming.
2 I used 1 tsp of VWG.
3 I used about 1/4 tsp more of salt than the last pies.
4 I sifted the flour before mixing.
5 Instead of using a cutter pan, I used parchment paper. My cutter pan sometimes warps when on the stone, which led me to try using the paper for more contact with the stone for more heat transfer to the skin. I removed the paper after 3 minutes into the par bake.
The crust really had a nice flavor, maybe the increase in salt helped. I used Chicago Bob's trick with the mushrooms, and they did not release as much H2O as in the past. I really like how the crust turned out. I am going to try this recipe again to see if I get the same results.
In the last pic you can see a little spiderwebbing. Not sure how this happened since I was at 45% hydration.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: ct4640 on July 31, 2013, 04:07:19 PM
i made a couple cracker crust  for dinner.  they rolled out great and we brushed one with oil and the wife wanted sauce on the other one. i think i docked them too much before the par bake or didnt roll it  thin enough. maybe both. mine didnt bubble up as much as  others i have seen on here. barely managed to snap a pic before we ate it all. they  really tasted great   but didnt look like yours. not bad for a first effort but a lot of room for improvement. will definitely try again soon.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on July 31, 2013, 05:32:26 PM
You have some nice color on the crust. From your picture, the crust looks too thick, about twice as thick as it should be. The skin should be about the thickness of a dime or credit card after rolling out. I poke mine pretty heavy. I par bake the skin in the pan on the stone for about 3 minutes, then I place the skin on the stone, and finish the par bake, about another 2 minutes or till I start to get a few light brown spots. Be sure to let the skin cool down for about 5 to 10 minutes before topping and going back into the oven. Let me know how your progress goes.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: ct4640 on August 07, 2013, 08:24:04 PM
i tried again  and was happy with the results. if it gets better than this i wont be able to stand it. i decided to  try less yeast and a faster ferment so i did .5 % yeast and a 9 hr rise on the counter. it rose really well and was much easier to roll out. its  nice to know i  dont have to wait 24 hrs if i need  to hurry it up  a bit. i  also used the sams flour and was very satisfied with it especially since its 1/3  the cost of KA. with petes help we found out its 11%+  so im not gonna worry about using  vwg unless i have a failure where i think i need to bump it up.
thx nick for the work you put in on this. my wife and kids love it
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on August 08, 2013, 04:08:03 PM
It's a thing of beauty.  :drool: I found that the longer rise improves the texture and flavor of the crust. Of course I know about having that same day pie fix. When I pull the dough out of fridge, I let it sit on the counter for about 2 hours. This really helps on the rolling action. I used the VWG on my last cracker just to see if I could tell a difference. It seemed to give the crust a softer bite, but did not impact the crispy, cracker like texture. I think it made it closer to the old school Pizza Hut crust. 11% sounds right on the flour, I thought it was around 10%. Of course my recipe calls KAFB. I may try KAAP next time to see what difference if would make.

I just added a new thread on the Chicago style pizza thread. It's my attempt at a Chicago thin crust. Check it out. If you like  crispy thin crusts, you'll love this one. It's almost the same procedure as cracker crusts. My next bake will a Chi style thin.

Congrats on your success! There is a lot of good info on the forum, and it's fun trying different styles.

BOOMER SOONER!!!
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: Chicago Bob on August 08, 2013, 07:31:22 PM
I used the VWG on my last cracker just to see if I could tell a difference. It seemed to give the crust a softer bite, but did not impact the crispy, cracker like texture. I think it made it closer to the old school Pizza Hut crust.
Nick,  I sure like the sound of that.  ;)


ct, I like that you are trying different things with your dough. Keep up the good work man; your pizza looks great!  :chef:
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on August 08, 2013, 08:31:35 PM
 If my memory serves me right, PH crust was light and flakey. It was not as light as a pie crust, but seemed to be airy and almost like a heavier saltine cracker. I am thinking of combing half baking soda and yeast. I think that I should make the crust thinner than I have. The saltine pizza dough was very thin, you could read printing through it. I have been using KABF for my cracker crust pies. I think using KABF flour may have made the crust tougher. The saltine recipes I have seen uses AP flour, and the pie I made using it was pretty close to PH, but just too delicate. I just know that my cracker pies are not quite as flakey and thin as the PH.

 My next pie was going to be a Chi style thin, but now you have me craving for a cracker. By the way, I did post my results of my Chicago thin crust. It was easy, and very tasty. I did Garvey's for my first try. My next Chi pie will be in the pan like Chicago Bob. You were right about how I would like it. This is the recipe I used to make my matzo pizza, though it's not really kosher. http://stresscake.wordpress.com/2010/04/28/something-easy-and-unlikely-homemade-saltines/ (http://stresscake.wordpress.com/2010/04/28/something-easy-and-unlikely-homemade-saltines/)
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on August 08, 2013, 08:46:48 PM
This pic shows my best attempt to date. As you can tell the by looking at the cross-section, it looks craggy and not smooth as I remember the way PH crust looked. The sliced edges looked smooth and thin as paper, this does not. Is my idea of PH pie from the 60's and early 70's the same as you remember?
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: Chicago Bob on August 08, 2013, 10:16:26 PM
This pic shows my best attempt to date. As you can tell the by looking at the cross-section, it looks craggy and not smooth as I remember the way PH crust looked. The sliced edges looked smooth and thin as paper, this does not. Is my idea of PH pie from the 60's and early 70's the same as you remember?
Actually, no.  :)
In that pic I think you are right there on TF but I don't believe it was so craggy. Perhaps a more dense crispy evenly across entire crust. Your TF sure reminds me of the nice gbd crispy(but not hard crunch)rim on those pies that was formed by the low rimmed pan it was baked in.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: ct4640 on August 10, 2013, 09:06:38 PM
we tried another cracker but this time tried rolling it out on a piece of parchment. just dock it and chunk it in the oven then pull the paper after a couple minutes.  turned out pretty good. its easier than using a pan for me.   cracker crust is starting to  give deep dish a run for its money for being the family favorite
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on August 10, 2013, 10:55:37 PM
I am going to go off the deep end, and I am trying  something a little different for a cracker crust in the next week or so. I am going to modify a saltine cracker recipe and try to make it into a cracker crust pizza recipe. I think my crusts are too tough. This will include a mixture of yeast and baking soda, and all purpose flour. Glad your pies are turning out great! Why buy a pizza, when you can make one at home that is filled with love?
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: Chicago Bob on August 11, 2013, 10:18:59 AM
I am going to go off the deep end, and I am trying  something a little different for a cracker crust in the next week or so. I am going to modify a saltine cracker recipe and try to make it into a cracker crust pizza recipe. I think my crusts are too tough. This will include a mixture of yeast and baking soda, and all purpose flour. Glad your pies are turning out great! Why buy a pizza, when you can make one at home that is filled with love?
You're my hero Nick.....please say you're going to have a little oil in there. I think that is maybe what made old school PH interesting....a sort of tender crackery crunch.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on August 11, 2013, 01:28:16 PM
The cracker recipe I am going to modify calls for butter. That would change the flavor profile of the crust. I was going to use vegetable oil, but maybe corn oil would be better. What do you think? I just got back from the store and got all my ingredients for the pie. Now I realized that I forgot the flour. It's OK, I am making the dough ball tomorrow night, and using it the next day. This may be a total failure, but you have to learn from your mistakes. I have used AP flour in a cracker crust before, and it seemed to work out well. I am going for a lighter, but still sturdy crust. If that makes any sense.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on August 13, 2013, 08:55:47 PM
Well, I think I have more questions than answers after this pie. I used this saltine cracker recipe for the crust, with modifications.
1 cup unbleached all-purpose flour

2 Tablespoons unsalted butter, melted

¼ cup water

½ teaspoon kosher salt

water for brushing

kosher or sea salt for sprinkling

I doubled the recipe size. I modified it by adding yeast and baking soda.

This is what I came up with after converting the ingredients from volume to weight.

Flour 100% 253.14g
Water 47%  118.98g
Baking Soda  1/4 teaspoon
IDY   1%      1.27g  about 1/4 teaspoon
Salt   1%      1.27g  about 1/2 teaspoon
Oil     4 tablespoons

I made the dough using a food processor, and let the dough rest in the fridge for 24 hours. I proceeded in the shaping and cooking as usual. The skin was very crispy and was easy to bite though. It was nice, crispy, and light. But it did not turn out like the saltine crackers I had made in the past. I was thinking it was the higher cook temps. The crackers cooked at 400 degrees, but I par baked the skin at 550 and then finished at 425. I also was thinking that the yeast or baking powder was the cause. It was closer to a PH crust but something was still missing. It seemed too dense and did not puff up like the crackers. Then, when I was writing this, I realized I made a major mistake. I used 2 tablespoons of oil instead of of 4. So, this more closely follows my cracker pie crust recipe.
  I almost did not post this, but mistakes help us in our learning process. So this was a big one. Now I have to do this again, I'll be more careful when making the recipe. It was a good tasting pie, but not at all what I was hoping for. This is Monday, so I was due one mistake.

Later this week I am going to do the saltine cracker recipe. If it turns out like the recipe, I will use it to make a pizza. I will add some baking soda to see what kind of lift I get and flavor.

 
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: ct4640 on August 13, 2013, 10:58:21 PM
that looks great to me. so 2  T butter and 4 T oil? dumb question here but  i  must have missed something.when do you brush with water? i will have to try butter and baking soda. i can get thinner rolling out right on the parchment rather than transferring to a  pan  but im not even close to being in your league yet. mine eat good  but you are on another level. very nice
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on August 14, 2013, 09:10:02 AM
I did not use any butter, I was going to use 4 tablespoons of oil instead, but forgot I had doubled the recipe size when adding the oil. Hence, I only added 2 tablespoons of oil instead of the 4 that doubling the recipe called for. I did not brush the skin with water since this was going to be a pizza crust instead of being plain crackers.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: Chicago Bob on August 14, 2013, 09:30:52 AM
Looks pretty good though Nick...did you get any "soda" cracker taste?
Good catch on the oil; that should make a big difference next go around. Personally, I would like to see the crust color quite a bit lighter....maybe 450 par and then 425 bake.  Keep up the great work man, appreciate it!  :chef:
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on August 14, 2013, 10:51:50 AM
No soda taste that I could detect. I know if you use too much, the product can have a medicine taste. I had made another skin two nights before using a different recipe. It also had that yellow cast to the skin and it was hard like peanut brittle. I have heard that baking soda can cause browning in baked and fried goods. I am just going to make some soda crackers again. If they turn out OK, I will do a pizza crust using the same recipe. If I like the results, I will start upping the baking soda till I just get a faint hint of the flavor. I won't post results on those, but will post after I start getting some better results. This may take a lot of tries and time. The toppings won't be up to par either. I am more interested in getting the skin right.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: Chicago Bob on August 14, 2013, 11:16:08 AM
No soda taste that I could detect. I know if you use too much, the product can have a medicine taste. I had made another skin two nights before using a different recipe. It also had that yellow cast to the skin and it was hard like peanut brittle. I have heard that baking soda can cause browning in baked and fried goods. I am just going to make some soda crackers again. If they turn out OK, I will do a pizza crust using the same recipe. If I like the results, I will start upping the baking soda till I just get a faint hint of the flavor. I won't post results on those, but will post after I start getting some better results. This may take a lot of tries and time. The toppings won't be up to par either. I am more interested in getting the skin right.
10-4...sounds good.   And yes, soda adds browning; The Dough Doctor just posted about that over on the sweet an sour chicken thread.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on August 18, 2013, 09:37:01 PM
Just an update, no pics. I did the cracker recipe with baking soda and without. I was not happy with the results. The skins were not very crispy, and a little leathery. It did have some of the qualities of a PH pizza skin, but was too soft. The skins with the baking soda had a slight tingle to the tongue when eating, not sure what that means. I am thinking that the hydration may be too high. So, I will lower it on my next try. Sorry, for the bad news, but it makes me want to keep giving it the old college try. As an artist, 75% of all paintings I do are losers. That is the norm. So, having failures is the road to learning what works and what does not.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: norma427 on August 18, 2013, 10:41:41 PM
Nick,

It is great that you gave the baking soda the old college try.  8) I agree that is the way we all learn. 

I didn't exactly work with baking soda in any cracker style pizza crust, but did work with Clabber Girl baking powder and IDY to make a Sukie Pizza with Peter's help and formulation at Reply 63 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13686.msg137736.html#msg137736 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13686.msg137736.html#msg137736)  The Sukie pizza with the chemical leavening system and IDY did turn out well at Reply 74 and the next posts.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13686.msg137842.html#msg137842 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13686.msg137842.html#msg137842) 

Dont' ask me to explain a chemical leavening system though in combination with IDY.  That is far too complicated for me to do.  :-D

Norma
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on January 19, 2014, 01:27:55 PM
 I ran across the Pat's pizza thread in the Chicago style section. I thought it would be interesting to let the skin sit in the fridge for a few hours before topping like the Pat's pizza in the video. I used my cracker crust recipe and let the dough sit in the fridge for 48 hours. I let the dough warm up on the counter for 2 hours before rolling out. I rolled the skin thinner than my normal cracker crust. I placed it in between 2 sheets of parchment paper and put it in the fridge for 3 hours. I removed the skin which was drier and docked it very heavily. I sprayed the crust with oil, then topped with sauce and toppings. I placed it on a 550 degree stone, and set the oven temp to 450. I cooked the pie about 10 minutes before I pulled it.
  It was very crispy and had a little lamination also. The crust was good and crispy, but a little harder to bite through than my normal cracker crusts. I am going to try this again and use a combo of KAAP and KABF to see if it will give me a softer bite. My taster liked it. Of course using the Garvey sausage recipe and Pete's PJ's clone sauce, it was mighty tasty. It was the closest I have gotten to a 60's era PH thin but the bite was harder than the PH crust.
 
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: Chicago Bob on January 19, 2014, 09:07:00 PM
Wow...that pizza looks really tasty Nick. Keep up the good work and experiments dude!  :chef:

Bob
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on January 19, 2014, 11:26:05 PM
Thanks Bob ;D I really liked how this one turned out. I am getting closer to the PH thin. On my next pie I will go with a 20% AP and 80% BF in the hopes of getting a lighter bite. I remember the crust from the mid 60's as having a delicate bite, almost like biting into air. It was crispy but had a very easy bite, and did not fill you up. I may have to make my fave pie (Chi Town thin) before I try this style again. One thing I did not like was the reheated leftovers. I did the usual in the pan reheat, and the skin did not crisp up, not sure how to remedy that.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on January 19, 2014, 11:38:06 PM
I forgot to mention that I may not par bake the skin anymore. By drying the skin and docking, plus coating in oil, I did not have the gum line problem. I will dock the next a little less to get more lamination. I did the heavy docking thinking the skin would rise and become more bread like than cracker.The way it is going, I will make my purrrfect pie, then die the next day. What a way to go :-D
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: PizzaGarage on January 29, 2014, 10:23:51 PM
Thanks Bob ;D I really liked how this one turned out. I am getting closer to the PH thin. On my next pie I will go with a 20% AP and 80% BF in the hopes of getting a lighter bite. I remember the crust from the mid 60's as having a delicate bite, almost like biting into air. It was crispy but had a very easy bite, and did not fill you up. I may have to make my fave pie (Chi Town thin) before I try this style again. One thing I did not like was the reheated leftovers. I did the usual in the pan reheat, and the skin did not crisp up, not sure how to remedy that.

If you would like a softer bite ( but still just as crispy ) you can use 10% semolina and 90% AP  You can expirement up to 15% semolina.  The reheat will be better as well. BF will get you a thougher chew.  The Semolina might get you closer to your desired texture.  Good luck!
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on January 30, 2014, 04:29:06 PM
Thanks for the info PizzaGarage! I'm gonna try the mix of AP/BF on next try. I liked how my crust turned out on my Chi town pie using AP flour. I do have some semolina and AP flour on hand, so I will give it a try. Do I need to adjust my hydration when using this combo of flours?
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: PizzaGarage on January 31, 2014, 12:27:57 PM
No, you will not.  At 47% you have plenty of hydration for this style.

The Semolina will have a nice effect, you will have the same crispy texture on first bite, but a lighter chew.  It breaks up much faster and is more delicate after first bite.  Its a great addition to this style.  If you want a richer flavor and more crisp, you can move to a 48hr cold ferment (As you are now doing i think).  A good idea to reduce yeast for that duration, I use .375 for 48 hour.  There is a substantial flavor impact moving to 48 (if you want to wait that long).   Get the Dough out of the mixer at 75-80, ball it up and right into the fridge w/no counter warmup.  There are all sorts of things you can do with this recipe, but doing one thing at a time works best - like adding the Semolina to get the texture and bit you are looking for.  I think 10% is perfect.

An example of those are :

Bumping salt up to 1.5 to 1.75
Reducing IDY for longer ferment
Moving to 475 for Parbake + Cook time
Using a light coating of Crisco Butter flavor shortening in the Pan or non butter flavor
Using a good pure OO in the dough (for a little extra flavor)
Laminating and re-rolling
Eliminating the Fridge time
Applying cheese first, then sauce then more cheese (mega crispy)

Everyone has opinions, these are just a few of mine.  I'm making this style tonight and it's my favorite.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: Chicago Bob on January 31, 2014, 02:28:59 PM
I remember the crust from the mid 60's as having a delicate bite, almost like biting into air. It was crispy but had a very easy bite, and did not fill you up.
I believe you have a good grasp of this once great pizza that they used to make. I am watching you closely Nick and am hoping for your success...I think you will do it man!  :chef:

I liked what pizzagarage said about lightly oiling the cutter pan. I breifly worked a PH back in the day and remember all the pans would be slightly greasy from all the previous bakes.
Also, I really like that you are now moving away from par baking the crust. It should not be necessary, even in a home oven, if one can just get the dough figured out/right.

Bob
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on January 31, 2014, 04:12:32 PM
Thanks for the tips guys! I will try these on my next attempt. I just got home from a place called New York Pizza. I've been wanting to go there for along time, they have been in business for 40 years. They sell slices and 16" pies. I ordered the 16 incher with sausage and shrooms. It was the best pizza my date and I have ever eaten. I will post pics and a description in the New York thread. Of course I live in Tulsa and have never had an authentic NY pie, so hopefully this is close.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: JohnnyQuest on March 12, 2015, 09:13:24 PM
This is a fantastic thread!  I'd love to know what your doing with your cracker crusts these days Nick, I'm sure others would too.   
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: jvp123 on March 13, 2015, 12:46:55 AM
 ^^^
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on March 13, 2015, 06:34:00 PM
  I need to make a cracker again. I needed a break, I was not progressing like I wanted. I've been making other styles of pies. Though, I have been doing research on crackers, and I am ready to take the plunge. So in the near future, I will be making some. Got some new ideas from friends on the  forum.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: JohnnyQuest on March 14, 2015, 10:42:21 AM
Thanks Nick, sounds good.  Can you clarify on thing for me?  Your Lehman calculations on page 1 of this post have no sugar or salt.   I've seen different numbers throughout.  Maybe I missed it, but if you get a chance, can you update the recipe with those in the amount you found that worked best?
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on March 14, 2015, 02:47:31 PM
  Here's the calculations. A note.... The thickness factor is .1, but in reality it's about.07 TF. The reason is, I roll the skin out to about 20 inches or so. I make it that size, because I don't want any rough edges. I trim the final skin size so it will overlap the top of my cutter pan, and then I can use a rolling pin to cut the skin to form the top edge of the skin. The finished skin is about as thick as a credit card. I included salt in this formulation. 
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: JohnnyQuest on March 14, 2015, 08:33:46 PM
Thanks again Nick, greatly appreciated.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: Packer Pizza Guy on April 06, 2015, 08:08:52 AM
Without weighing everything what is the recipe?i want to perfect my pizza making skills. Do you use bread flour? Any hello would be appreciated.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on April 06, 2015, 09:24:21 AM
  First rule I learned on the forum, weigh the ingredients. There are too many variables when using volume measurements. Here is what King Arthur Flours says on the subject.

http://www.kingarthurflour.com/recipe/measuring.html

Even using their methods you can still get inconsistent weights, sometimes 10 to 20% off. If you want to make consistent pies you need to get a scale and weigh the flour. I used KABF for these pies. It has been recommended to use a higher protein flour like KASL.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on August 02, 2015, 06:45:25 PM
 It's been quite a while since my last cracker. Threw caution to the wind and tried some new ideas I had been pondering. Used my new KA food processor to make the dough. I used KASL flour this time. I lowered the hydration to 42%. Instead of corn oil, I used 3 tablespoons of Crisco, which I cut into the flour with the processor. I added a teaspoon of sugar to improve browning. Last but not least, 1/2 gram of DMP. I let the dough sit in the fridge for 24 hours. I par baked the crust at 550 degrees, then let it cool down before topping. I finished the pie on the stone for 5 more minutes.
  This try was a lot closer to the PH style I have been trying to achieve. It was almost like a saltine, but a little more substantial. I think the DMP and the sugar helped the browning of the crust. The bottom looked more like my typical NY style pies. It was very crispy and had a very light bite. I used 1/3 of a teaspoon of IDY instead of 1/4. The dough rose a little more than usual. My next try I will stick to a 1/4 teaspoon. I think I am getting closer, and this may be my best cracker, or at least one of my best.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: jvp123 on August 02, 2015, 07:15:55 PM
WOW Nick looks great!  I'd love to have another go at cracker style.  I really enjoy this type of pizza. 

There's only so many pizzas one can make though ha ha and I've been working on my NY style (and NP).
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: HBolte on August 02, 2015, 07:43:11 PM
Looks great Nick! What was the flour weight?
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on August 02, 2015, 08:09:47 PM
Here is the recipe....
Flour   373 grams
water  157 grams
IDY     1/3 teaspoon
salt     1 teaspoon
sugar  1 teaspoon
DMP    .5 grams

   I rolled the skin out to 20 inches, then draped it over a 14.5" cutter pan. It was almost paper thin. I then used the rolling pin on the edge of the pan to trim the skin. I par baked the skin in the pan. The topped skin finished cooking directly on the stone. Even after the pie sat for 20 minutes, the crust was still crispy. I topped the pie with 6oz of sauce, 5oz of whole milk mozz, and 6oz of Premio mild italian sausage. Should have added some crushed fennel to the sausage, that would have been the bomb for sure.   
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: norma427 on August 02, 2015, 10:01:29 PM
Nick,

Great looking cracker style pie!  :pizza:

Norma
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: HBolte on August 02, 2015, 10:10:22 PM
Here is the recipe....
Flour   373 grams
water  157 grams
IDY     1/3 teaspoon
salt     1 teaspoon
sugar  1 teaspoon
DMP    .5 grams

   I rolled the skin out to 20 inches, then draped it over a 14.5" cutter pan. It was almost paper thin. I then used the rolling pin on the edge of the pan to trim the skin. I par baked the skin in the pan. The topped skin finished cooking directly on the stone. Even after the pie sat for 20 minutes, the crust was still crispy. I topped the pie with 6oz of sauce, 5oz of whole milk mozz, and 6oz of Premio mild italian sausage. Should have added some crushed fennel to the sausage, that would have been the bomb for sure.

Thanks buddy, I'll be trying that one!
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on August 02, 2015, 10:41:07 PM
  The skin was really easy to roll out. I put the dough in a warm oven for around an hour. I then put the dough on top of the stove that was set at 550 degrees, The top of the stove was warm, and this kept the dough warm till rolling out. I dusted the counter with flour and rolled the dough till it was difficult to get any more expansion. I then lightly dusted the skin with flour and flipped that side to the counter. I rolled the dough till it did not expand. I dusted the top again and rolled it out. I repeated this till I got to 20 inches. It took about 4 minutes. Of course I think the large amount of oil helped in the process of rolling out the skin. I am not sure what made this skin so good. It could the the KASL, the Crisco, lower hydration. I know I am getting closer to my quest of a PH style at home
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: clarkth on August 02, 2015, 11:47:34 PM
Here is the recipe....
Flour   373 grams
water  157 grams
IDY     1/3 teaspoon
salt     1 teaspoon
sugar  1 teaspoon
DMP    .5 grams

   I rolled the skin out to 20 inches, then draped it over a 14.5" cutter pan. It was almost paper thin. I then used the rolling pin on the edge of the pan to trim the skin. I par baked the skin in the pan. The topped skin finished cooking directly on the stone. Even after the pie sat for 20 minutes, the crust was still crispy. I topped the pie with 6oz of sauce, 5oz of whole milk mozz, and 6oz of Premio mild italian sausage. Should have added some crushed fennel to the sausage, that would have been the bomb for sure.

I tried my hand at putting this into the dough tool and here is what I came up with, does this look about right?

Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on August 03, 2015, 09:19:54 AM
That looks close enough to me. The DMP looks a little high. I use a jewelry scale for the DMP. 1/2 a gram is a little less than an 1/8 teaspoon. If you use too much DMP, the dough can turn into a soupy mess. Make sure the dough is at room temp or a little higher when rolling out. It is a lot easier when the dough is warm as compared to when it is cold. Good luck. Post some pics of your pie when you give this a try.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: clarkth on August 03, 2015, 06:57:15 PM
That looks close enough to me. The DMP looks a little high. I use a jewelry scale for the DMP. 1/2 a gram is a little less than an 1/8 teaspoon. If you use too much DMP, the dough can turn into a soupy mess. Make sure the dough is at room temp or a little higher when rolling out. It is a lot easier when the dough is warm as compared to when it is cold. Good luck. Post some pics of your pie when you give this a try.

I have a scale that goes to .01g so I weigh everything.  I'll keep it to .5g.  I'm going to give it a try this weekend.  I don't have a cutter pan so I'll use parchment paper but I don't think that will be a problem.

I'll post pictures, good or bad  ;D
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: mitchjg on August 03, 2015, 07:41:27 PM
What about the Crisco in the ingredient list and the %'s, etc.?


*********

WOW Nick looks great!  I'd love to have another go at cracker style.  I really enjoy this type of pizza. 

There's only so many pizzas one can make though ha ha and I've been working on my NY style (and NP).

What he said!
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on August 03, 2015, 08:05:38 PM
 Clark, I forgot to add that I am using King Arthur DMP. It is very potent, I think the Linter value is 80. If you are not using a DMP with a high value you may need to use more. What brand of DMP are you using? A lot of recipes call for around 1% of the flour weight. Which for your recipe would be 3.73 grams. I would stay on the low side if you are not sure of your DMP value. To be on the safe side for your first try, leave it out. See how you like the crust, then give it a try the next time. Your skin will still be good.

 I have baked my crackers directly on the stone at 550 degrees on parchment paper. If you par bake the skin, don't use the paper after applying toppings, Finish cooking the pie directly on the stone. Be sure to dock the skin pretty heavily. Keep an eye in the skin while par baking, if you see any big bubbles pop them before they set up. After the par bake let the skin cool down on a cooling rack for about 10 minutes before adding the toppings.  After the pie is finished cool it for 3 to 5 minutes on a cooling rack, this will keep the crust from losing it is crispness. If you don't have KASL, bread flour will work just fine. Since it's a thin crust, don't overload it with toppings. If you look at the pic of the skin in the pan before cooking, you can almost see the pan through it. I roll it out very thin.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on August 03, 2015, 08:23:30 PM
  Mitch, this is very close to the recipe I used on this dough. I did up the salt to 1 teaspoon. As for the Crisco, I did not melt it. I added it to the dough after I added the water and the rest of the ingredients to the flour and pulsed a few times with the processor to mix together. I let the dough sit for a couple of minutes to hydrate, then added the Crisco. I pulsed the processor a few times till the Crisco was incorporated. I used 1/3 of a teaspoon of yeast. I think that was too much and will go back to around a 1/4 teaspoon next time. Don't know if the DMP had much of an effect, the sugar may have added more to the browning of the crust. The leftovers I cooked today were very crispy. Hope you get some good results. I'm in no way an expert, and this is a continuing quest of mine to create an old school Pizza Hut thin crust. This quest led me to the forum. I was not a fan of other styles of pizzas. But now I like a lot different styles of crusts. NY style, Chicago thins, NJ boardwalk tomato pies, St Louis/Imo's, and Pete's Papa John's clones are some my fave styles besides crackers. Thanks to the forum members to opening me up to different varieties of pizza.  I am close, but no cigar yet ;D
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: clarkth on August 04, 2015, 04:46:48 PM
Clark, I forgot to add that I am using King Arthur DMP. It is very potent, I think the Linter value is 80. If you are not using a DMP with a high value you may need to use more. What brand of DMP are you using? A lot of recipes call for around 1% of the flour weight. Which for your recipe would be 3.73 grams. I would stay on the low side if you are not sure of your DMP value. To be on the safe side for your first try, leave it out. See how you like the crust, then give it a try the next time. Your skin will still be good.

 I have baked my crackers directly on the stone at 550 degrees on parchment paper. If you par bake the skin, don't use the paper after applying toppings, Finish cooking the pie directly on the stone. Be sure to dock the skin pretty heavily. Keep an eye in the skin while par baking, if you see any big bubbles pop them before they set up. After the par bake let the skin cool down on a cooling rack for about 10 minutes before adding the toppings.  After the pie is finished cool it for 3 to 5 minutes on a cooling rack, this will keep the crust from losing it is crispness. If you don't have KASL, bread flour will work just fine. Since it's a thin crust, don't overload it with toppings. If you look at the pic of the skin in the pan before cooking, you can almost see the pan through it. I roll it out very thin.

Thanks Nick.  I've got King Arthur DMP but I think I'll leave it out for the first try.  I'm sure I'll have plenty of chances to add later.  When I was nailing down my NYC formula I was making a pizza every other night  ;D
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on August 04, 2015, 06:28:27 PM
Since you have the KA DMP you can use the .5 gram amount and  you will be fine. Good luck, share some pics if you can.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: clarkth on August 05, 2015, 07:01:19 AM
Since you have the KA DMP you can use the .5 gram amount and  you will be fine. Good luck, share some pics if you can.

I'm out of town this week so I'm going to make the dough on Saturday and bake on Sunday.  The suspense is killing me.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: clarkth on August 10, 2015, 11:02:43 PM
I ended up making a batch for both Saturday and Sunday, here's the results:

Basically I used this formula for both batches

Flour (100%) KASL
Water (42%)
IDY (.28%)
Salt (1%)
Oil (11%) Veg/OO mix
Sugar (1%)
Total (155.28%)
with a total weight of ~20 oz. 

However, I got so excited both nights that I forgot to add the sugar  :-[  In the end I don't think it mattered.  The only other difference is that I used a bit of DMP in the first batch, and I sifted the flour in the second (more on that below)

First Batch Results
No pictures from the first batch, but it turned out OK.  Mixed by hand in a large bowl.  It came together well and I didn't have to add any water to the dough to get it into a ball.  After a day in the fridge I think I rolled it out a little to thin as I was able to get 2 15" skins out of it.  I docked the dough very heavily.  There was a lot of small bubbles after the parbake, I didn't need to poke any big bubbles down.  The crusts were very hard after they cooled.  I sauced both up to the edge and added some cheese then baked for 10 minutes.  Both were very crispy and had some small bubbles in the crust but since the skins were so thin I think some of the oven spring didn't really take and it was not as crunchy as I would have thought it would be.  Tasted very good and the kids finished off both pizzas with no problem

Second Batch Results (and a lot of pictures)
As I noted above the main difference with this batch was that I sifted the flour.  I think this helped out in a lot of ways.  The dough was much easier to mix by hand, it came together very well with minimal kneading on the counter, rolled out well, etc.  On both batches after the day in the fridge there were little white dots in the dough (see pictures 1 & 2).  Not sure what they are but it didn't really seem to matter that much.  For this batch I didn't roll it out as thin (see pictures 3, 4, & 5), I used a 15" pan as a reference to cut the final skin so it looks like I got about 20" rolled out.  I didn't dock the dough as heavily this time either, just one good pass with my docker.  There were 2 large bubbles in the parbake (picture 7) that I punctured and pushed down.  I only had the skins in for 2 min on parchment paper then 2 minutes on the stone and the crusts came out nice (pictures 7, 8, & 9).  You can see I only got about a 9" second skin out of the dough since it wasn't rolled as thin.  For the 9" skin I also folded/laminated the dough into 1/4ths by folding it over twice as if the center that was cut out was still there.  Then I re-rolled it out.  This really came out nice in the end with great layers (picture 15).  For the large skin, I sauced it up right to the edge (picture 10), added more cheese than the first batch (picture 11), then cooked for 10 minutes.  The crust came out perfect!  (pictures 12, 13, 13-2, & 14). 

This is the pizza I was looking for!!!!  I still have some things to play around with but this is the right path.  I also put some observations and questions together at the end in a separate post.

Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: clarkth on August 10, 2015, 11:04:36 PM
More pictures

Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: clarkth on August 10, 2015, 11:18:45 PM
Some observations from my first 2 attempts:
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: Pete-zza on August 11, 2015, 09:35:44 AM
Thomas,

Very nice job. I very much enjoyed reading about how you made the second pizza. Can you tell me where you got your recipe? I ask because it is unusual to see so much oil (11%), which is considerably more than what Nick used for the Lehmann no-fail cracker style recipe and the recipe he started this thread with, and so little yeast (0.28%). However, I can see how using so much oil, and also sifting the flour, would make it easier to hand prepare the dough with a formula hydration of 42%. In other words, an "effective" hydration of 55% would be easier to work with when hand kneading.

I remember when I first tried a hand kneaded cracker style dough. At the time, I couldn't recall anything in the literature about hand kneading a cracker style dough so I just improvised based on what I knew about the chemistry and physics of dough in general. In my case, I was not only trying to hand knead a cracker style dough but also to come up with instructions that members could follow without having much in the way of equipment. I even skipped the step of sifting the flour, and I also provided volume measurements and recommended a fork for docking. You can read about my results at Reply 126 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=5762.msg53174#msg53174 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=5762.msg53174#msg53174). In my case, the effective hydration was only 39.5% so I had to take more drastic measures to work with such a dough when using hand kneading. Maybe there is a tip in there somewhere that you might be able to use when hand kneading a cracker style dough. For me, the experiment was a lot of fun and I learned a lot from it.

Peter
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on August 11, 2015, 01:59:11 PM
  Those pies look great. I had been mixing my dough by hand, and sometimes I would get those white spots too. Now that I have a big KA processor I decided to use it on my latest attempt. It really helped to incorporate the Crisco into the dough. I had not made a cracker with a 42% hydration and was worried that it might be too dry, but it was just fine. My last skin was thinner than yours. I par baked the skin between 3 and 5 minutes. Glad you liked my new recipe. It may be my best to date. You should be fine not using sugar or DMP. I wonder if the DMP helped improve the crispness of the skin or if it was the KASL. My next try I will leave out the DMP and see what happens. Have not tried folding the dough to create layers, that is something I am going to try later on. Congrats on you results. Keep us informed on your results of your next pies. 
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: clarkth on August 11, 2015, 09:58:35 PM
Thomas,

Very nice job. I very much enjoyed reading about how you made the second pizza. Can you tell me where you got your recipe? I ask because it is unusual to see so much oil (11%), which is considerably more than what Nick used for the Lehmann no-fail cracker style recipe and the recipe he started this thread with, and so little yeast (0.28%). However, I can see how using so much oil, and also sifting the flour, would make it easier to hand prepare the dough with a formula hydration of 42%. In other words, an "effective" hydration of 55% would be easier to work with when hand kneading.

I remember when I first tried a hand kneaded cracker style dough. At the time, I couldn't recall anything in the literature about hand kneading a cracker style dough so I just improvised based on what I knew about the chemistry and physics of dough in general. In my case, I was not only trying to hand knead a cracker style dough but also to come up with instructions that members could follow without having much in the way of equipment. I even skipped the step of sifting the flour, and I also provided volume measurements and recommended a fork for docking. You can read about my results at Reply 126 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=5762.msg53174#msg53174 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=5762.msg53174#msg53174). In my case, the effective hydration was only 39.5% so I had to take more drastic measures to work with such a dough when using hand kneading. Maybe there is a tip in there somewhere that you might be able to use when hand kneading a cracker style dough. For me, the experiment was a lot of fun and I learned a lot from it.

Peter

Thanks Peter.  The 11% came from one of Nick's last posts and I've read in different posts that sifting the flour helps with water absorption so putting the 2 together is how I got to where I got.  What also helped is that I used a shallow/wide bowl for mixing and added the water to the flour first, mixed a bit with a spatula to get the water in, then added the oil.  Not sure if I mentioned that above.  The only equipment was the bowl, spatula, rolling pin, docking tool, and peel.  As you said a folk can substitute for the docking tool, and cardboard for a peel so there really isn't much you need to make this.  I'm not even sure the parchment paper is needed as long as you don't dock the dough to the peel  :D 

I think the key was after I added the oil I used my hands to knead the dough in the bowl.  Mostly just kind of folding over and over to pick up the dry flour with a couple of squeezes to press together.  Maybe a minute or two, nothing like kneading bread dough on a bench. 
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: clarkth on August 11, 2015, 10:13:02 PM
  Those pies look great. I had been mixing my dough by hand, and sometimes I would get those white spots too. Now that I have a big KA processor I decided to use it on my latest attempt. It really helped to incorporate the Crisco into the dough. I had not made a cracker with a 42% hydration and was worried that it might be too dry, but it was just fine. My last skin was thinner than yours. I par baked the skin between 3 and 5 minutes. Glad you liked my new recipe. It may be my best to date. You should be fine not using sugar or DMP. I wonder if the DMP helped improve the crispness of the skin or if it was the KASL. My next try I will leave out the DMP and see what happens. Have not tried folding the dough to create layers, that is something I am going to try later on. Congrats on you results. Keep us informed on your results of your next pies.

Thanks Nick, you did all the hard work in figuring it out.  I just followed the steps! 

Funny that you mention that you thought 42% might be too dry.  I found that when I was rolling it out I had to use more bench flour than expected since the dough was moist and stuck a bit to the counter.  I'm thinking I can cut back to 40% or maybe even 39% to get a total hydration with the oil to 50%.  I agree with you the high % of oil is very important to get the dough to roll out easily. 

The layers were totally unplanned and unexpected.  After I cooked that pizza I had to go back and think about what I did to get them.  I wasn't trying to do it, I just naturally folded the dough over on itself twice then rolled out again.  When I make pie crusts I just ball up all the scraps and re-roll, but this time the shape of the remaining dough made me just fold it up.  I'm excited to see if I can reproduce that effect on the main skin without fusing the layers together.  Thinking about it I wonder if the high oil% helps with this by having more fat in the dough to prevent the layers from coming together or the oil helps trap the gas between the layers when on the stone (or something like that).  That's my next experiment.

BTW-I've already asked my wife for a KA food processor for my birthday in December.  Not sure if I can wait that long.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: Pete-zza on August 12, 2015, 09:18:45 AM
Thomas,

What intrigued me most about your formulation was its similarity to another Lehmann cracker style formulation, specifically, for a Chicago-cracker style pizza as described, for example, at http://www.pmq.com/Recipe-Bank/Chicago-Cracker-Style-Pizza-Dough (http://www.pmq.com/Recipe-Bank/Chicago-Cracker-Style-Pizza-Dough), and especially if the butter is added. I believe that Nick started out with the more traditional cracker style formulation, also by Tom, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=17996.msg174468#msg174468 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=17996.msg174468#msg174468). I believe he eventually doubled and almost tripled the amount of oil, and in some cases used a solid fat, to arrive at his final and preferred formulation. The processing steps are different for the two formulations and maybe that accounts for why your formulation is more like the traditional cracker style than the Chicago version.

Peter
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: clarkth on August 12, 2015, 04:31:29 PM
Peter,

Looking at the 2 posts I agree that my formula (actually Nick's formula) is close to Tom's from PMQ but I think Tom used a lot more yeast due to the short fermentation time.  I don't know the conversion from compressed yeast to IDY but I'm guessing about 2-1 or so.  The Chicago style cracker also had a lot of yeast but less oil and a cold ferment in the fridge for 24 hrs with no parbaking.  Both reverse the order of adding ingredients but I'm not sure how much of a difference that really makes if they are all added in short order and mixed quickly. 

I think the difference in getting the crust I did is the high oil/fat % and the parbaking.  I'm going to have to try this again to make sure the first time wasn't a fluke  ;D
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on August 12, 2015, 05:33:43 PM
  Pete, the PMQ cracker looks a lot like my earlier attempts. May have to try it for fun.  Thomas was using my latest iteration of my formula. It starts on reply #186 of this thread. It was another one of my "Lets try something completely different." I really liked the texture and crispness of the crust. It was more of what I have been looking for. It was very crackery and it was easier to bite through. My earlier crackers seemed to have a harder or tougher bite. This crust was easier to bite through. It seemed more light and airy like the good PH crusts used to be. As for the yeast, I went with that percentage because it was only going to be a 24 hour CF. I was looking for a little rise but not too much. I am going to try it again, I used the last of my KASL. When I get some, I'll give this formula a try again. Hope to get the same results. After that I am going to try something a little crazy with my cracker crust. It'll either be a winner, or not worth doing again. Either way it will be fun. This latest try has me excited about crackers again. I was getting frustrated that I was not getting better results. It's been a few years of trial and error, but I think I my be getting closer to my quest. At least I hope so. 
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: mitchjg on August 21, 2015, 06:55:18 PM
Nick / Others:

I may take a crack at making one of these doughs tomorrow followed by the pizza on Sunday.  Do you know if I can use this pan that I had collecting garage dust (I can wash it!)? ? ?  I do not know if the sides slope in the "right" way and if the holes matter.

If not, I have an excuse to go to the kitchen supply store......
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on August 21, 2015, 08:28:31 PM
I have a similar style pan with big holes. It should work just fine. If you decide to dock the dough, do it before placing the skin in the pan. If you dock after putting on the pan, you might push some of the dough through the big holes. That might create a problem getting the crust off the pan after cooking or par-baking. I make my skin larger than the pan, then trim it on the edge of the pan with a rolling pin. Post pics and the recipe you used. My last cracker was really good and I have been craving another.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: mitchjg on August 21, 2015, 08:32:11 PM
Great, thanks.  How vital is it for me to dock?  And, if there was a recipe on this thread that you think is "best" for me to start with, please let me know.

- M
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: deb415611 on August 21, 2015, 08:46:08 PM

If not, I have an excuse to go to the kitchen supply store......

I'd go with I'm not quite sure so I have to walk through the kitchen supply store to be sure
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: mitchjg on August 21, 2015, 09:17:37 PM
I'd go with I'm not quite sure so I have to walk through the kitchen supply store to be sure

Never need much of an excuse to go through the aisles......
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on August 21, 2015, 10:57:32 PM
 I've done my crackers both docked and undocked. I think docking works better. If you don't dock, you run the risk of big bubbles that you have to pop during the cooking. You may still have to pop a couple of big bubbles anyway. I prefer small bubbles on a cracker crust. I have cooked crackers on just parchment paper, like my Garvey's thin style chicago pies, that may be better for you?.?. My best crackers have been cooked at 550 degrees. I par bake the crust in a pan for about 3 minutes. I then remove the skin and let it sit on a cooling rack till it is about room temp. I top the skin with ingredients and slide it onto the hot pizza stone, and cook till it's done, maybe another 5 minutes. I let it rest on a cooling rack for a few minutes so the bottom crust stays crisp and not soggy from the leftover steam exiting from the bottom. Reply #186 on this thread is my latest attempt. I think it is my best so far. I posted the recipe for you. The skin ends up being  between 18 and 20 inches, even though I am making a 14 inch pie I make it bigger to get the part of the skin that is an even thickness and almost transparent. The reason for the large skin size is, that the dough is so dry that the edges become craggley. I used KASL on this one, but I think KAFB may be fine. This latest pie was very crispy with a light bite.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on August 21, 2015, 11:00:46 PM
Mitch this the recipe I used for my last pie


Here is the recipe....
Flour   373 grams
water  157 grams
IDY     1/3 teaspoon
salt     1 teaspoon
sugar  1 teaspoon
Crisco/oil 3 tablespoons
DMP    .5 grams

   This is for a 24 hour rest in the fridge. I rolled the skin out to 20 inches, then draped it over a 14.5" cutter pan. It was almost paper thin. I then used the rolling pin on the edge of the pan to trim the skin. I par baked the skin in the pan. The topped skin finished cooking directly on the stone. Even after the pie sat for 20 minutes, the crust was still crispy. I topped the pie with 6oz of sauce, 5oz of whole milk mozz, and 6oz of Premio mild italian sausage. Should have added some crushed fennel to the sausage, that would have been the bomb for sure.   
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on August 22, 2015, 09:08:27 AM
Oops!!! It was late and I had sipped an adult beverage. Sorry bout that. Update... I added the Crisco/oil to the  DMP recipe. You can use either recipe now.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: mitchjg on August 22, 2015, 12:55:25 PM
Thanks Nick.  Another question - can I use this pan? (it is just a pizza tray for cutting and serving a pie.  I have lots of those.

I was thinking that, because I want to dock, I may just put it on parchment paper and launch on a baking stone.  But, what do you think?
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on August 22, 2015, 04:57:32 PM
I think the pan would be OK. I've seen other members use pans that were similar. I used the pan on my stone when par baking.  The two pies I did before the last one, I used parchment paper and slid on the stone. I did not par bake those, and I pulled the paper after a few minutes. Good eats await you.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: Pete-zza on August 23, 2015, 10:04:34 AM
Nick,

In Reply 1308 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=21830.msg393353#msg393353 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=21830.msg393353#msg393353), you raised some questions about being able to get a softer bite in your cracker style crusts while still being crackery.

You mentioned that Mazzio's uses a conveyor oven. What I found from my own experience, especially the Papa John's clones, is that it is hard to emulate a conveyor oven in a standard home oven, especially the way that a conveyor oven distributes the heat over the top of the pizzas. That heat distribution is especially beneficial for pizzas that have a lot of wet toppings, such as veggies. I do not have a convection feature for my standard electric home oven but maybe that is a way of getting adequate top heat if you have that feature with your home oven.

Off the top of my head, and in no particular order, other possibilities that you might consider to achieve the soft bite while retaining the crispiness might include the following:

1. Use an all-purpose flour as you suggested. I'm sure that someone somewhere out there in the professional world is using such a flour but usually stronger flours are used. If you choose to try an all-purpose flour, you might want to increase the amount of sugar, or use a diastatic malt powder, to get increased crust coloration to offset the lower protein content of the all-purpose flour. You might also brush the outer rim (flat) of the unbaked skin with oil to get increased crust coloration at the edges of the crust.

2. Increase the formula hydration. Jon (Jackitup) and I both demonstrated in the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=5762.msg48991#msg48991 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=5762.msg48991#msg48991) that raising the hydration value yielded a crust that had both soft and crackery characteristics. However, Jon and I went a bit overboard and raised the hydration value considerably more than you might want to try. In your case, maybe increasing your formula hydration by a few percent would be reasonable place to start.

3. Increase the bake temperature and use a shorter bake time. Generally that yields a softer crust than a longer bake at a lower oven temperature. The question is whether you will get enough crust coloration from the shorter bake and enough crispiness.

4. Increase the amount of sugar to introduce more tenderness in the finished crust. However, I don't think I would go more than 2-3%.

5. Use a thicker crust.

6. Some combination of the above.

It I always difficult to know where to start on these kinds of matters. But you may know intuitively where to start based on the experience you have racked up over the last few years making the cracker style of pizza.

Peter


Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on August 23, 2015, 08:56:29 PM
 Pete, thanks for the great suggestions. Some I have thought of and some look really interesting. I've been cooking the crackers at 550 degrees, that is as high as my oven will go. But I have an idea on how I can shorten the cooking time by a minute or two. My last pie had an hydration of 42%. Most of my crackers are around 45%. I did do one at 50%, it ended up more like Garvey's Chicago thin crust and less like a cracker. Looking at the pics of my last attempt, the thickness looks the same as the Mazzio's. Mazzio's had the soft bite of a saltine but more substantial. My crust is crakerey and it's bite is hard and crispy and not soft and crispy. You have given me some things to mull over. By the way, I reheated the Mazzio's tonight, the crust was just as good as last night. I will make another try later in the week. Thanks for the great input as always!!! Nick
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: mitchjg on August 24, 2015, 08:44:49 AM
Nick:

Big thanks, sir!
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26286.msg393500#msg393500

Your recipe was very easy and it came out quite good.   I made it in the food processor:
1. The flour, DMP, and sugar were all pulsed a lot to mix and emulate sifting
2. I ran the food processor and slowly added the water, which was iced down in temperature.  I wanted to use iced water since the food processor can easily drive temperatures up.
3. Rested for 10 minutes.
4. Ran it again just long enough to incorporate - adding the IDY.
5. Ran it again, just long enough to incorporate - adding the oil,
6. Ran it again, just long enough to incorporate - adding the salt.

I did not know one way or the other if I needed to go through that rigamarole, but I figured why not?  I have read enough times to add oil late in the game and figured the salt going last would also help things mix well.

It was a little difficult to "ball it up" but I got it balled good enough and I put it in the fridge for 39 hours.  It turned out to be enough for 2 pies.  The first pie rolled out very easily and we cut out a 14 inch pie using a tray as the guide.  Didn't turn out round anyway - too much rough handling.  The second one was made with the scraps from the first and it was about 1/2 the dough. Great!  We rolled out the second.  It was more difficult since it had been reballed and we had to "walk away" about 3 times.  We got a nice circle - so we did not bother using a tray as a guide.

Both were parbaked on the stone for 2 or 3 minutes.  In all the "excitement," we forgot to dock it both times.  Not a big deal, I poked it with a fork when we saw the bubbles.  Then when they came out, we gently flattened them with a rolling pin.

My brother-in-law, with his unique approach, topped both with tomato sauce that had olive tapenade mixed in, artichokes, roasted red peppers and parmigiana.

He announce that it was "exactly what he was looking for" - he does not enjoy my high heat Neo-Ny style pies because I will not sauce them to the very edge and they are not crisp enough for him.  This was perfect!

Thanks again.




Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on August 24, 2015, 10:24:16 AM
 Mitch, that's a tasty slice of heaven. I added all the dry ingredients first to the processor, then the water. I let the dough rest for a few minutes to absorb the water, then added the Crisco. I used the pulse button till the Crisco was incorporated. I did not use ice water, I was careful not to mix too long so as not to heat up the dough. I've still got a ways to go on perfecting my cracker recipe. At least I made some progress. Wish I was younger, I could eat more pizza and move along my experiments a little quicker. I like all the styles of pizza I have learned to make with the help of the great members here, but I am still partial to cracker crusts.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on February 07, 2016, 02:22:14 PM
  First pie of the year. I have been trying to make a cracker that was crispy but was easy to bite through, or as some would say a softer chew. I am really close this time. Used the processor to mix the dough. I did a two day rest in the fridge. I let the dough ball warm up on the counter for 4 hours. It was the easiest cracker crust that I have rolled out to date. Not sure if it was because I used KAAP or the long counter warm up. I am very happy with this attempt. Some of my crackers almost have the bite of peanut brittle. This was very crunchy, and the bite was more like a sturdy saltine cracker. This attempt was a success. Most cracker recipes call for  high protein flour, but the KAAP gave me the result I have been looking for.

KAAP 373 grams
water 157 grams
IDY     .35 tsp
salt    1 tsp
sugar 1 tsp
corn oil 3 TBL
dmp  just a pinch
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: mrmojo1 on February 10, 2016, 09:09:11 PM
nice!!!!!
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: grendel67 on February 22, 2016, 12:25:28 AM
Made this crust tonight.  Sorry, no pics, but it was amazing!  All I can say is a big Thank You to nick57 for putting in the work to perfect this recipe.  I thought for sure I had messed it up - the cast iron stone left some pretty dark marks on the bottom after the 4 minute par bake, but finished off for 12 minutes on a bare rack and it was sublime.  Thank you!
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on February 22, 2016, 01:25:59 PM
That's great! Thanks! My latest attempt  browned up more than I would have liked. I par baked the skin at 550 degrees in a cutter pan on the stone for about 3 minutes. I then let the skin cool to room temp before adding the toppings. I then placed the pie directly on the stone and cooked till the cheese just started to brown. One way to decrease the browning is to use less to no sugar. My next try will be the same formula without sugar or DMP, hopefully the crust will still be crispy and not so brown.  Good luck on your next pie. Nick
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: clarkth on February 22, 2016, 04:41:17 PM
That's great! Thanks! My latest attempt  browned up more than I would have liked. I par baked the skin at 550 degrees in a cutter pan on the stone for about 3 minutes. I then let the skin cool to room temp before adding the toppings. I then placed the pie directly on the stone and cooked till the cheese just started to brown. One way to decrease the browning is to use less to no sugar. My next try will be the same formula without sugar or DMP, hopefully the crust will still be crispy and not so brown.  Good luck on your next pie. Nick

Nick,

I've been using your recipe without sugar for a while and do the same par-baking of the crust with the cutter pan and stone as you describe above.  It comes out nice with some of the high spots starting to brown but crisps up nice.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on February 22, 2016, 05:49:46 PM
 Clark, from what Pete has said about sugar, I might lose the tenderness I am looking for by omitting the sugar. If that happens, I will add a little at a time in succeeding pies till I can achieve a balance between browning and tenderness. I have been trying to zero in on this style for a few years, and as time has passed I have been getting closer to my goal. I must love pizza, or I may have a problem. :-D
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: clarkth on February 22, 2016, 08:59:28 PM
Clark, from what Pete has said about sugar, I might lose the tenderness I am looking for by omitting the sugar. If that happens, I will add a little at a time in succeeding pies till I can achieve a balance between browning and tenderness. I have been trying to zero in on this style for a few years, and as time has passed I have been getting closer to my goal. I must love pizza, or I may have a problem. :-D

Yes, we all have a problem  ;D

I get what you're trying to do with the sugar.  My thinking is that there is enough sugar left over in the flour after the CF to get the tenderness that I like so there is no need to add any.  2 days gets me the crust I like, I may try extending the CF to see what happens.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on February 22, 2016, 09:26:02 PM
I used to do just 24 hour CF. But as late, I have been going out to 48 hours. Not so much for flavor, but more for hydration of the flour. I did not change my IDY percentage for the longer CF because the hydration was so low. Not sure if that makes sense, just a gut feeling and endless attempts of making all sorts of different pizzas.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: clarkth on February 23, 2016, 07:20:05 AM
I used to do just 24 hour CF. But as late, I have been going out to 48 hours. Not so much for flavor, but more for hydration of the flour. I did not change my IDY percentage for the longer CF because the hydration was so low. Not sure if that makes sense, just a gut feeling and endless attempts of making all sorts of different pizzas.

I didn't adjust my IDY % either when I went from 24 to 48 hrs.  There is still not a lot of rise but a good strong alcohol smell so I know it's working :)  My thinking is that if I go longer than 48 hrs I might need to add some sugar for the yeast to keep working or lower the IDY % so it doesn't eat up all the sugar in the flour. 

The nice thing is that the "experiments" taste great and keep getting better.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: haloswin2002 on March 17, 2016, 01:52:45 PM
  First pie of the year. I have been trying to make a cracker that was crispy but was easy to bite through, or as some would say a softer chew. I am really close this time. Used the processor to mix the dough. I did a two day rest in the fridge. I let the dough ball warm up on the counter for 4 hours. It was the easiest cracker crust that I have rolled out to date. Not sure if it was because I used KAAP or the long counter warm up. I am very happy with this attempt. Some of my crackers almost have the bite of peanut brittle. This was very crunchy, and the bite was more like a sturdy saltine cracker. This attempt was a success. Most cracker recipes call for  high protein flour, but the KAAP gave me the result I have been looking for.

KAAP 373 grams
water 157 grams
IDY     .35 tsp
salt    1 tsp
sugar 1 tsp
corn oil 3 TBL
dmp  just a pinch

Pardon the ignorance, but after searching, can someone please tell me what DMP is?
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: vtsteve on March 17, 2016, 02:02:02 PM
Diastatic Malt Powder (there's a glossary at http://www.pizzamaking.com/pizza-glossary.html (http://www.pizzamaking.com/pizza-glossary.html))
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: Steve on March 17, 2016, 03:02:26 PM
Diastatic Malt Powder (there's a glossary at http://www.pizzamaking.com/pizza-glossary.html (http://www.pizzamaking.com/pizza-glossary.html))

I think you meant to send him to the common abbreviations page:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=20056.0

Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: haloswin2002 on March 17, 2016, 04:20:03 PM
I think you meant to send him to the common abbreviations page:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=20056.0

Thanks to both of you! I had the page bookmarked but for some reason didnt check it since I thought I had memorized most of the terms/abbreviations on there.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: JoeDSM on March 22, 2016, 10:28:37 AM
I got my parents coming into town, so perfect excuse for a pizza party Friday night.  I am going to try the following formulation which I converted from Nick's formula in reply 226.  I need baker's percentages Nick!  ;) 

If my math is right, this should amount to a little over 40oz of dough which should be good for 4 decent sized pizzas.  I will likely CF for 44-48 and get the dough into my proofer for the last 2-4 hours.  Can't wait to try it out!

100% - KAAP - 746g
42% - Water - 314g
11% - Corn Oil - 82g
1.53% - Salt - 11.4g
1.13% - Sugar - 8.4g
0.27% - IDY - 2g
0.11% - DMP - 0.8g

I figured .11% was a reasonable place to start with DMP, someone over at the fresh loaf suggested .1-.2 is a good range to start in.  http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/6350/adding-diastatic-malt-powder-unenriched-flour (http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/6350/adding-diastatic-malt-powder-unenriched-flour)
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on March 23, 2016, 09:25:06 AM
This is not exactly the formula, but it is what I have been using as of late with good success. You can get by without the DMP. I think it causes the crust to brown up too much, I am leaving it out for my next pie. This is for one 14" pie. I roll the skin out to about 20 inches  so I don't have scrappy edges, then place it in the cutter pan and trim the skin. Of course rolling the skin out larger than 14" changes the TF from .09 to somewhere closer to .05. I roll the skin out to about the thickness of a credit card.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: clarkth on March 23, 2016, 03:43:43 PM
This is not exactly the formula, but it is what I have been using as of late with good success. You can get by without the DMP. I think it causes the crust to brown up too much, I am leaving it out for my next pie. This is for one 14" pie. I roll the skin out to about 20 inches  so I don't have scrappy edges, then place it in the cutter pan and trim the skin. Of course rolling the skin out larger than 14" changes the TF from .09 to somewhere closer to .05. I roll the skin out to about the thickness of a credit card.

I use this recipe and for a 16" cutter pan I put a TF of .06 into the tool and roll out to about 21-22"
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on March 23, 2016, 05:05:10 PM
Hope your pizza party is a success!!!
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: JoeDSM on March 27, 2016, 10:23:54 AM
My parents really enjoyed the pizza, only ended up making 3.  I stuck with the formula I posted in reply 239 and it worked out real well.  This crust definitely isn't as hard as the KABF version, and I noticed was the crust was more prone to shattering when cut so it is definitely more tender which is great.  Definitely a success!  Some of the pizzas were better than others I think I just need to dial in my technique and show some restraint with the toppings.  Anyways here's some pics, thanks again Nick!

Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on March 27, 2016, 11:06:00 AM
Looks good Joe. Glad it worked out for you.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: clarkth on March 27, 2016, 09:47:02 PM
This is not exactly the formula, but it is what I have been using as of late with good success. You can get by without the DMP. I think it causes the crust to brown up too much, I am leaving it out for my next pie. This is for one 14" pie. I roll the skin out to about 20 inches  so I don't have scrappy edges, then place it in the cutter pan and trim the skin. Of course rolling the skin out larger than 14" changes the TF from .09 to somewhere closer to .05. I roll the skin out to about the thickness of a credit card.

Nick,

Have you been using KASL, KABF, or KAAP?  I though I read a previous post that you used all-purpose flour but I might be wrong. 
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on March 28, 2016, 02:08:07 PM
When I first started making cracker crusts, I was using KAFB. As of late I have been going with KAAP. It seems to be getting me closer to the type of crust I have been looking for. Been trying to dial in this crust for a few years, and I seem to be going in the right direction. Then again you never know, I'll just keep experimenting hoping for more success in my quest for my elusive pie.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on August 14, 2016, 03:54:55 PM
  Back on the quest again. Pretty much the same recipe as the last pie. I cut the sugar in half from 1 teaspoon to 1/2 teaspoon. I replaced the 1/2 teaspoon with garlic powder. If I remember correctly, garlic powder can make the crust a little softer. I left out the DMP also.  I really like my KA food processor for making cracker crusts, it's a breeze and easy cleanup. Will be taking the crust out of the fridge on Tuesday, about 48 hours from now.

KAAP 373 grams
water 157 grams
IDY     .35 tsp
salt    1 tsp
sugar 1/2 tsp
Gaarlic powder 1/2 teaspoon
corn oil 3 TBL

 As for the cooking, I'll par bake the crust at 550 degrees for around 3 minutes. After letting the crust cool for a few minutes, I will top the skin and put it back in the oven at 475 degrees till the top is done, about 7 minutes or so. Maybe with the ingredient changes, cooking changes, shorter cooking times, and having the toppings sit out on the counter for a bit, I will end up with a lighter crust color and a softer bite.

 I ran across Corando Tosano style mild Italian sausage, don't know if it is any good. My grocer is carrying Best Choice food's brand again. Pete said I should try their mozzarella  cheese, he gave it a thumbs up. I will post results and pics Tuesday. Fingers crossed!
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on August 16, 2016, 08:07:15 PM
  It's about time.....Maybe I should walk that back a little to it's almost about time after 5 years of experimenting. The crust was almost perfect. It was very crispy, and had a nice light chew. The bite was more tender, and was what I have been looking for. It was like a saltine but it had more body. The added garlic powder added a lot of flavor, and made the kitchen smell great...almost like a pizza parlor. The only problem, I did not roll it out quite thin enough....Easy fix. It's been a long and frustrating journey. I felt like giving up at times. But, I kept researching, experimenting, and have almost reached cracker nirvana. My next attempt may be the one, I just have to keep the eye on the thickness. This attempt reminded me of a Shakey's/ Ken's crust.

  This has to be one of my best flavor profiles I have made. I used Cento crushed tomatoes doctored with sugar, salt, pepper, and some basil. I let it meld in the fridge over night. The Corando Tosano Italian sausage was great. It had the right amount of fennel and anise. The Best Choice mozzarella melted nicely and had a very good flavor. Thanks Pete for the advice about Best Choice mozz. My taster does not like pizza, and could live without ever eating another slice. This time he wolfed down two slices. Maybe he will be a convert yet.

  As for the cook. I left the dough ball covered on the counter for three hours before rolling out. I put the skin in the cutter pan and placed it on the stone at a oven temp of 550 degrees. After two and a half minutes I removed the skin and put it on a cooling rack for ten minutes. I then dressed the pie which took about five minutes. I let the ingredients sit on the counter for an hour to warm up before toping the pie. My thought is it would promote a quicker cook. I was going to finish it off in a four hundred and seventy five degree oven. After some consideration, I decided against it. It would lengthen the cooking time, which might decrease the tenderness. It went with five hundred and fifty degrees, with a cook time of six minutes. Total cook time was eight and a half minutes. I usually cook my crackers for ten minutes or a little longer. Will try this recipe again, with no changes. Hopefully rolling the crust out thinner will be the ticket. I did not know what to expect this time, but it was better than I was expecting, I am very happy with the results. First time in all these attempts that I am not thinking how I can improve the recipe. I'm kinda happy... and kind of sad. Have I finally reached my goal of a Pizza Hut original cracker crust from the 60's?  I will find out next time. If not, I am pretty happy just to make this version from now on. :chef:
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: Pete-zza on August 16, 2016, 08:11:53 PM
Nick,

That's a great looking pizza. I can see why you were so happy with it.

Peter
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: jvp123 on August 16, 2016, 08:12:48 PM
  It's about time.....Maybe I should walk that back a little to it's almost about time after 5 years of experimenting. The crust was almost perfect. It was very crispy, and had a nice light chew. The bite was more tender, and was what I have been looking for. It was like a saltine but it had more body. The added garlic powder added a lot of flavor, and made the kitchen smell great...almost like a pizza parlor. The only problem, I did not roll it out quite thin enough....Easy fix. It's been a long and frustrating journey. I felt like giving up at times. But, I kept researching, experimenting, and have almost reached cracker nirvana. My next attempt may be the one, I just have to keep the eye on the thickness. This attempt reminded me of a Shakey's/ Ken's crust.

  This has to be one of my best flavor profiles I have made. I used Cento crushed tomatoes doctored with sugar, salt, pepper, and some basil. I let it meld in the fridge over night. The Corando Tosano Italian sausage was great. It had the right amount of fennel and anise. The Best Choice mozzarella melted nicely and had a very good flavor. Thanks Pete for the advice about Best Choice mozz. My taster does not like pizza, and could live without ever eating another slice. This time he wolfed down two slices. Maybe he will be a convert yet.

  As for the cook. I left the dough ball covered on the counter for three hours before rolling out. I put the skin in the cutter pan and placed it on the stone at a oven temp of 550 degrees. After two and a half minutes I removed the skin and put it on a cooling rack for ten minutes. I then dressed the pie which took about five minutes. I let the ingredients sit on the counter for an hour to warm up before toping the pie. My thought is it would promote a quicker cook. I was going to finish it off in a four hundred and seventy five degree oven. After some consideration, I decided against it. It would lengthen the cooking time, which might decrease the tenderness. It went with five hundred and fifty degrees, with a cook time of six minutes. Total cook time was eight and a half minutes. I usually cook my crackers for ten minutes or a little longer. Will try this recipe again, with no changes. Hopefully rolling the crust out thinner will be the ticket. I did not know what to expect this time, but it was better than I was expecting, I am very happy with the results. First time in all these attempts that I am not thinking how I can improve the recipe. I'm kinda happy... and kind of sad. Have I finally reached my goal of a Pizza Hut original cracker crust from the 60's?  I will find out next time. If not, I am pretty happy just to make this version from now on. :chef:

Awesome Nick!  11% oil?  Looks great!
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: Pete-zza on August 16, 2016, 08:28:39 PM
Jeff,

High fat content for a cracker style dough throws off a lot of people. But if you look at Tom Lehmann's cracker style pizza at the PMQ Recipe bank, you will see a lot of total fat:

http://www.pmq.com/Recipe-Bank/Chicago-Cracker-Style-Pizza-Dough

If you take into account that the butter in the above recipe contains about 16-18% water (depending on whether it is salted or unsalted), you will be pretty close to 11% total fat.

Peter
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: norma427 on August 18, 2016, 11:17:37 PM
Way to go Nick!  That looks like an amazing pizza!! :drool:

Norma
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: clarkth on August 19, 2016, 08:05:40 AM
  Back on the quest again. Pretty much the same recipe as the last pie. I cut the sugar in half from 1 teaspoon to 1/2 teaspoon. I replaced the 1/2 teaspoon with garlic powder. If I remember correctly, garlic powder can make the crust a little softer. I left out the DMP also.  I really like my KA food processor for making cracker crusts, it's a breeze and easy cleanup. Will be taking the crust out of the fridge on Tuesday, about 48 hours from now.

KAAP 373 grams
water 157 grams
IDY     .35 tsp
salt    1 tsp
sugar 1/2 tsp
Gaarlic powder 1/2 teaspoon
corn oil 3 TBL

 As for the cooking, I'll par bake the crust at 550 degrees for around 3 minutes. After letting the crust cool for a few minutes, I will top the skin and put it back in the oven at 475 degrees till the top is done, about 7 minutes or so. Maybe with the ingredient changes, cooking changes, shorter cooking times, and having the toppings sit out on the counter for a bit, I will end up with a lighter crust color and a softer bite.

 I ran across Corando Tosano style mild Italian sausage, don't know if it is any good. My grocer is carrying Best Choice food's brand again. Pete said I should try their mozzarella  cheese, he gave it a thumbs up. I will post results and pics Tuesday. Fingers crossed!

Nick,

This looks great!  I haven't made a cracker in a while but looking at the pictures is making my mouth water  ;D

Do you have the baker's % for the above recipe?  I make a larger skin than you do and want to scale it up a bit. 

Thomas 
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on August 19, 2016, 12:57:30 PM
Thanks guys and gals! It's taken a long time to get to this point. The pie was really good. Next try I will roll it out thinner, and hope it will be the one.

Thomas this is pretty close to the to my last pie. I used half the sugar this time. It should get you in the ballpark though.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on August 19, 2016, 01:09:49 PM
One note.... I reheat my pies in a skillet, and they turn out very good. But for this style, not so much. The crust did not crisp up, it stayed soft. That being said, I still scarfed down the leftovers.   
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: clarkth on August 19, 2016, 09:03:14 PM
Thanks guys and gals! It's taken a long time to get to this point. The pie was really good. Next try I will roll it out thinner, and hope it will be the one.

Thomas this is pretty close to the to my last pie. I used half the sugar this time. It should get you in the ballpark though.

Thanks Nick.  I'll give this a try soon!
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on August 19, 2016, 10:53:20 PM
  Clark, when you make it let me know what you think, pics would be cool. It may be not the style you are looking for. If you go through this thread, I have made several styles of a crackers. So, if this is not what you are looking for, one of my attempts may be the one for you. I have gone from a really crispy with no chew to a really crispy crust with a nice soft chew and every where in between. This was the style I was looking for, but it may not be what you are seeking in a cracker style. Still, my latest attempt is pretty good. There are also some great threads from our amazing members on cracker crusts. I learned a lot from them. Thanks everyone!!! It's all about sharing our results, so we can all benefit in our desire to make a great pie and share it with our friends. The love of food transcends all cultures. Food defines us as a species.  Oops! Showing my weakness for great eats, just like the majority of the members here!  :-D
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: 333meg on May 03, 2017, 04:29:28 PM
Well I made your pie but I would say that I failed and I'm laughing as I type that. I didn't parbake and I can see now the purpose of the parbake and what it does to the crust. So that was mistake number one. Then I definitely didn't roll it out thin enough either. Regardless, it was fun to make a different pie than the ones I've been making. I wanted to see what other cracker recipes were like. What I made was not crispy and was very chewy but even failures are good to eat. Thanks for all your hard work over the years, it was nice to read it all at once.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: mgcain12 on May 04, 2017, 02:36:26 PM
Nick, your pizzas and experience are inspiring - my wifey loves her a cracker crust pizza so this is something I'm going to have to try out.  Thank you so much for sharing....
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: Chicago Bob on May 05, 2017, 11:26:00 AM
Just now saw this....Nick, your cracker looks absolutely amazing. Great work man!!  :chef:

I'm in the process of losing 100lbs. but your latest creation is going to be made on my next cheat day.....thank you!!   8)
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on May 07, 2017, 07:53:19 PM
  Thanks Bob. The texture and bite is a little different from some of my past experiments, it's more what I have been looking for. Had not seen you on the forum for a while. Glad you are doing OK! I've lost over 20lbs in the past year. I wasn't really trying, I've just cut back to no more than two meals a day. I have had some back problems this year and it impacted my appetite. Now I am used to eating less without feeling hungry. I have had weight problems all my life..YOYO syndrome.  Hopes and prayers for your success in losing weight, it's one day at a time. I been thinking of trying my latest recipe again to see if is good as the last try. I may make the skin a little thinner this time out. Glad to hear from you. If you do make a pie post thoughts and pics! Nick
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on May 07, 2017, 08:35:29 PM
  333meg your pie look great! Try rolling the skin out to a thickness of a dime or credit card next time. Be sure to dock the skin pretty heavy. What I have been doing as of late is changing the way I dust the counter when rolling. I dust the counter lightly with flour. When the dough stops expanding, I dust the top with a little flour and flip the skin over and continue rolling till  it stops expanding, then repeat the process till I get to the desired size. My style of a cracker crust may not be the same as what you are looking for. If not, that's OK, it's my personal quest. Check out other members of the forum that have had a hand in cracker crusts. You can learn a lot just as I have from them.  Post pics and thoughts on your next attempt.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: Hermit on July 17, 2017, 08:42:04 PM
  It's about time.....Maybe I should walk that back a little to it's almost about time after 5 years of experimenting. The crust was almost perfect. It was very crispy, and had a nice light chew. The bite was more tender, and was what I have been looking for. It was like a saltine but it had more body. The added garlic powder added a lot of flavor, and made the kitchen smell great...almost like a pizza parlor. The only problem, I did not roll it out quite thin enough....Easy fix. It's been a long and frustrating journey. I felt like giving up at times. But, I kept researching, experimenting, and have almost reached cracker nirvana. My next attempt may be the one, I just have to keep the eye on the thickness. This attempt reminded me of a Shakey's/ Ken's crust.

  This has to be one of my best flavor profiles I have made. I used Cento crushed tomatoes doctored with sugar, salt, pepper, and some basil. I let it meld in the fridge over night. The Corando Tosano Italian sausage was great. It had the right amount of fennel and anise. The Best Choice mozzarella melted nicely and had a very good flavor. Thanks Pete for the advice about Best Choice mozz. My taster does not like pizza, and could live without ever eating another slice. This time he wolfed down two slices. Maybe he will be a convert yet.

  As for the cook. I left the dough ball covered on the counter for three hours before rolling out. I put the skin in the cutter pan and placed it on the stone at a oven temp of 550 degrees. After two and a half minutes I removed the skin and put it on a cooling rack for ten minutes. I then dressed the pie which took about five minutes. I let the ingredients sit on the counter for an hour to warm up before toping the pie. My thought is it would promote a quicker cook. I was going to finish it off in a four hundred and seventy five degree oven. After some consideration, I decided against it. It would lengthen the cooking time, which might decrease the tenderness. It went with five hundred and fifty degrees, with a cook time of six minutes. Total cook time was eight and a half minutes. I usually cook my crackers for ten minutes or a little longer. Will try this recipe again, with no changes. Hopefully rolling the crust out thinner will be the ticket. I did not know what to expect this time, but it was better than I was expecting, I am very happy with the results. First time in all these attempts that I am not thinking how I can improve the recipe. I'm kinda happy... and kind of sad. Have I finally reached my goal of a Pizza Hut original cracker crust from the 60's?  I will find out next time. If not, I am pretty happy just to make this version from now on. :chef:

Thanks @nick57, this inspired me to try and make a dominos type thin and crispy, and I thought it was pretty damn spot on if my memory serves right.  Loved the texture and plan on doing this again, except delving into Honey + DMP instead of sugar, and doing CF.  This was just a 10H RT, I didn't use the granulated garlic in my dough but everything else was the same.

Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on July 18, 2017, 09:18:32 AM
That looks mighty tasty. Need to make a cracker soon.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: enchant on September 14, 2017, 07:59:24 AM
I really like my KA food processor for making cracker crusts, it's a breeze and easy cleanup.

Nick, I have a KA stand mixer and a Cuisinart food processor.  Do you believe that the food processor is superior to the stand mixer for this kind of dough?
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: clarkth on September 14, 2017, 09:40:04 AM
Nick, I have a KA stand mixer and a Cuisinart food processor.  Do you believe that the food processor is superior to the stand mixer for this kind of dough?

I have both also and use the food processor for cracker crusts.  The dough comes our more like coarse sand that I squeeze together into a ball before putting in the fridge for a day or so.  Use the steel cutting blade and not the dough blade and it will come out great
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: enchant on September 14, 2017, 09:42:46 AM
When I make pie crust, the preferred method is food processor.  I guess this dough is closer to pie crust dough than typical pizza or bread dough.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on September 15, 2017, 01:45:22 PM
  Since the dough mixture is so dry, it does not mix very well in the KA stand mixer. I have mixed the dough by hand and that works pretty well. As for using a food processor, it blends everything together easily and quickly. The dough comes out crumbly. I squeeze it together by hand into a ball and put it in a oiled zip lock bag and let it sit in the fridge for at least a day, but I like it better after a 48 to 72 hour ferment. If the dough seems too dry to come together, I sometimes spritz it with a little water to get it to maintain it's shape.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: Pete-zza on September 15, 2017, 02:22:39 PM
Nick, I have a KA stand mixer and a Cuisinart food processor.  Do you believe that the food processor is superior to the stand mixer for this kind of dough?
Pat,

Like the others, I have used a stand mixer and also hand kneading to make a cracker style dough but I found that a food processor was the best way to go. Here are some typical posts on my experience using a food processor, along with a few other tips and tidbits:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=5762.msg48991#msg48991

Reply 8 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=5762.msg49042;topicseen#msg49042

Replies 103/104 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=5762.msg50513#msg50513.

Peter
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: enchant on September 15, 2017, 02:55:21 PM
Thanks, Peter.  About 8 seconds before you posted, I put together my first batch in a food processor.  Went fine.  It looked terribly dry, but once I picked it up into a ball and gave it a squeeze, it felt like I thought it should.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on September 20, 2017, 06:37:41 PM
 As usual I can't leave well enough alone, and I am glad I did. I was happy with my last experiment. The bite was soft and crispy, but not as crispy as I would like. This formula was pretty much the same as my last attempt. I made two changes, I left out the garlic powder and instead of just using KAAP, I also used KABF at a 50/50 blend. My reasoning was that it would increase the crispness but still have some tenderness. It seemed to work. The crust had a better crunch while still being somewhat tender. I'm happy with the results. In future tries I will up the KABF content in maybe 10% increments to see when it starts to lose the tender characteristics. The toppings were mozz and Garvey's sausage recipe.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on September 24, 2017, 12:15:32 AM
  I made a A NY style and a cracker crust for the OU vs Baylor game. The gang had never had one of my cracker's but requested it. They liked both pies, I double cut the slices when I got there so there were 16 slices on each pie. The cracker was the hit. They all loved it and it was gone before you knew it.

 I used the same formula that I made Wednesday. This time I rolled it out thinner. After all these years of trying everything under the sun and thinking I had got close to Nirvana I finally achieved my perfect cracker crust. It was very crispy and had a very light and tender chew. In the past few tries I thought I was very close but not quite 100% satisfied. This time I am. This time I think I have reached the end of my journey. It even traveled well. I boxed it up and took it on a 25 minute ride. It was still very crispy and no sign of sogginess. Rolling it out super thin made all the difference, the one on Wednesday was a little thicker. In the past I thought I had gone as far as possible, but these last two attempts proved me wrong. I had tried for a couple of years to make a cracker pie, but with limited success, then 8 years ago I found this site. It's been a work in progress ever since. I just looked at my early posts and I really was a pizza making virgin/noobie. In the next few days I will post a complete walk through on making this new version. I am elated at what I have finally achieved. Without all the amazing help from the forum this would have never been possible. As you can tell, I am beside myself this time...never thought I would get there. All it took this time was the blending of KAAP and KABF.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on September 24, 2017, 12:47:16 AM
  This is a pic of Cindy and me. This is at tonights OU game. She hosts the OU parties. There are usually about ten of us and up and everyone brings good eats. We have been friends for ever. Cindy was one of my first pizza students. I started her off on Peter's PJ's clone and now she makes my NY style. Nicest person you would meet, but don't give her a hard time unless you are lookin' for a whoopin'. Now she wants my cracker recipe! Sharing knowledge is what it is all about. 
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: norma427 on September 24, 2017, 08:07:16 AM
Nick,

So glad to hear you achieved you perfect cracker style crust!  Congrats!!  :chef: :pizza:  Looks delicious!

Norma
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: clarkth on September 25, 2017, 04:09:42 PM
...In the next few days I will post a complete walk through on making this new version...

Nick, I've been following your progress for a while and have always been impressed with the results when I replicated them.  I can't wait to try out your holy grail of a cracker crust! 
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on September 25, 2017, 05:37:02 PM
Clark, I am going to make another of my latest cracker this week to make sure I got it right. I will do a complete walkthrough description and post pics of the process. I was really happy with the last two crackers I made. They were very crispy with the light chew I have been looking for.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: mrmojo1 on September 26, 2017, 09:13:58 PM
nick!   your cracker crust pizzas look so good!!!! nice!!!!!! 
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: Hermit on September 27, 2017, 09:47:08 AM
I've been using nick57's formula for a few months now and am hooked!  I just love this crust, it's so easy to make a pizza even in an emergency.  I think the dough's ready in about 3-4 hours.  I've done a combination of new dough, old+new dough, RT, CF, RT+CF and even reballed one  >:D

Gonna stick with these thin+crispy/cracker style for a bit, I do think they have a lot less carbs too which is a bonus, except I can now eat an entire 12" pizza solo  :-D

Can someone give me a tip on how to reduce the bubbles in the crust?  I generally don't parbake as I like that wet layer to contrast with the crunch on the bottom.  I had thought about par-baking with sauce for 3-4 mins then go with toppings and hope that anything I put on top will collapse the bubbles.  I generally see them along the rim but occasionally out in the middle of the pie.

Also, I've been baking this style on a screen and have been extremely happy with the bottom performance.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on September 27, 2017, 05:11:17 PM
  I've done par bakes with no sauce and with sauce. I like the crust texture without using the sauce during a par bake. I used to have problems with big bubbles in the past. I even tried popping them during the bake but the bubbles sometimes won't collapse. I have found if I do a heavy docking of the skin, I get very small bubbles, which I like. I don't have a dough docker so I use a fork. I dock the skin in one direction, then turn the skin 90 degrees and dock again. I make sure that the holes are uniform across the skin and very close together. It takes a couple of minutes, but it has reduced the larger bubbles drastically to almost none at all..
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: bobgraff on September 27, 2017, 10:30:18 PM
Great work Nick - your pizzas look fantastic!  I am anxiously awaiting your new and improved recipe to try it out myself.

Can someone give me a tip on how to reduce the bubbles in the crust?  I generally don't parbake as I like that wet layer to contrast with the crunch on the bottom.  I had thought about par-baking with sauce for 3-4 mins then go with toppings and hope that anything I put on top will collapse the bubbles.  I generally see them along the rim but occasionally out in the middle of the pie.

I almost always par-bake with sauce to reduce bubbles.  The sauce doesn't completely eliminate them, however it does keep the top layer moist enough that (assuming you've poked them with a fork) they can be deflated somewhat while the skin is cooling between par-bake and the final bake.   During my 4-5 minute par-bake, I generally open the oven once around the 2.5 minute mark to pop bubbles.

Another trick to try if you par-bake without sauce is to poke the bubbles during the par-bake, then invert the naked skin on the cooling rack and place a screen on top of the skin to help collapse the bubbles.

Lastly - I have noticed that older dough seem to bubble less-so than younger dough.  You might experiment with longer cold ferments (72 hour vs 4+ days).
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: discusmb1 on September 28, 2017, 06:31:43 AM
Have a question about cracker style. With par baking the crust, is it possible to par bake and then set them aside for a later bake? Wasn't sure if par baking in the morning and then finish baking in the evening would be possible. Have a Christmas party of 40 people in December and have a WFO. Trying to center the party out on the pool lanai and keep myself out of the kitchen and closer to the beverages. Figuring with that many people, doing the neapolitan style will keep me more active laterally rather than vertically doing arm curls and enjoying the evening. Any thoughts or recommendations? Figuring a cracker style would be more along the lines of an appetizer that I could finish bake in the WFO.
Thanks
Brian
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on September 28, 2017, 12:41:45 PM
 I don't think that would be a problem. I would do a test run. I would par bake the skin  then let it sit for the amount of time till you were going to start the finish bake. If you are thinking about doing it the day before, I don't know if that work. If so, try and see what happens. Be sure to cool the skin to room temp before removing from the cooling rack. I would be wary of placing them in a sealed bag, they may get soft. I would think if you did the par bake in the morning, they should be OK by evening. If you try a test run, let us know how it went either way. Good luck! Nick
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: Mad_Ernie on September 28, 2017, 12:58:16 PM
Have a question about cracker style. With par baking the crust, is it possible to par bake and then set them aside for a later bake? Wasn't sure if par baking in the morning and then finish baking in the evening would be possible.
Thanks
Brian

Brian,

I am sure if you do some searching in old questions, you will find some people who have done this.  I seem to remember some board posters talking about this very topic in years gone by, but the details escape me.

-ME
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: discusmb1 on September 28, 2017, 01:58:16 PM
Thanks Nick. I am probably looking at a 6 hour grace period between par and final bake. Just not sure how I would store them as I would probably have to do flat with no edges like the pan you are using. Test run it is this weekend.
Ernie, I will try doing a search to see what I can find. Thanks for the heads up.

Brian
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on September 28, 2017, 04:33:03 PM
I think you will be OK at 6 hours. Post results...with pics if you can. I made a dough ball yesterday, and will bake tomorrow. Hope it works out. Either way, I will post results. The anticipation is killin' me.  :)
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on September 29, 2017, 07:30:15 PM
 I was looking at my first post in this thread and I  stated " So, I think this will be my final recipe for cracker crust pizza, I don' think I can improve it." Boy was I wrong!  I have tried all sorts of dough formulas and cooking techniques over the years. I have had crusts that were like peanut brittle with no chew to more like thin and crispy with lots of chew. This latest version is crackery with a little chew, it reminds of a Ken's pizza but with a thinner crust. A lot of my attempts have been very good, but not quite what I was looking for. This one is not perfect, but I am really pleased with the crunch and chew. I may  not be able to recreate the old school PH cracker crust, but I am close. I will have some fun trying a poolish to see if it improves the flavor since the crust is more or less flavorless. I am also going to try my hand at a quick RT ferment so in an emergency I can make the dough a few hours beforehand when I need to bake it.

 I did a 48 hour CF. The dough is good to use even going out to 72 hours. I use a 14" cutter pan when par baking the crust. A flat pan can be used, a pizza screen or baked directly on a stone. A pizza stone is a must for the cracker like crust. A baking steel could be used, but you might have to lower the temps to keep the bottom from burning. I roll the crust out to 20 inches just in case I have a bad spot or a craggy edge. You may be able to make a smaller skin if you are not using a cutter pan or are directly baking on a stone. Below is the exact formula I have used on my last  3 pies. I did not use the dough calculator, just tried something new from what I have learned in the past attempts. Using the dough calculator I reversed engineered  the formula. It is close enough that you should get the same results. I have included it, so you can make any size skin you are after. One of the major differences between this and my last attempts a while back, is the blending of different flours. I used a 50/50 blend of KAAP and KABF.

Dough formula
373 grams flour  50/50 blend KAAP/KABF
157 grams of water
1/3 teaspoon IDY
   1 teaspoon salt
1/2 teaspoon sugar
   3 tablespoons oil

The procedure:

Place the dry ingredients in a food processor and pulse a couple of times to combine. Add the oil to the water and whisk to breakup  the oil droplets. With the processor running on low slowly add the liquid mixture to the dry ingredients. Blend till everything is combined. Stop the processor and scrape down the sides. Pulse the mixture 5 or 6 more times. Let the mixture sit for a few minutes to help the flour hydrate. Dump the dough mixture onto the counter and squeeze together to form a ball. The mixture may need a spritz of water if it is too dry. Use just enough to get the mixture to hold together. It usually needs only a couple of sprays. This time I formed the dough into a disc instead of a ball to help in rolling out. Place the dough in a oiled plastic baggy. Move to the fridge for a minimum of 24 hours. 48 hours is better, and even 72 hours will work.


Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on September 29, 2017, 07:33:22 PM
Remove the dough to the counter 3 hours prior to baking to warm up.  Dust the counter lightly with KABF.  Roll the skin out till it starts sticking. Then lightly dust the top of the skin and flip over and continue rolling. Repeat till the skin is the size you need. Place the skin in the pan and using a rolling pin on the edge of the cutter pan roll to separate the leftover dough.

Dock the dough heavily then turn the pan 90 degrees and dock again. This will help in reducing large bubbles. Place the skin in the cutter pan on the stone in a 550 degree oven that has been pre-heating for at least an hour. Par bake for about 2 to 3 minutes., or until the crust has just set, pull it out before any browning. Remove the skin from the pan to a cooling rack. Be careful the crust is very delicate and can easily crack. Leave it on the rack for 10 to 15minutes.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on September 29, 2017, 07:35:24 PM
 Move the skin to a peel and add toppings. For the pie I used 6 oz of Strianese whole tomatoes that I pureed , 5 oz Best Choice mozzarella and 4.5 oz Garvey's Italian sausage.  Using the peel, slide the pie onto the stone. Cook time will be around 7 minutes. Remove pie to a cooling rack. For a crisper bottom let the pie cool for about 5 minutes then slide back onto the stone for 60 seconds, you should not do more than 90 seconds to keep the bottom from burning. Move the pie to the cooling rack for at least 5 minutes before slicing.

  I wrote this walkthrough before making the pie. I wanted to make sure that I did not forget anything. I followed the directions to the letter. The verdict: The crust was very crackery with a tender and light chew. The blend of both flours seemed to work very well. It gave it the characteristics I was looking for. If you have any questions be sure to ask.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: norma427 on September 29, 2017, 07:59:16 PM
Nick,

Very nice pictorial and excellent instructions!  Beautiful pie.  :drool:

Norma
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: invertedisdead on September 29, 2017, 08:08:17 PM
Wow Nick, fantastic pizza and great write-up!! Pie looks excellent  :drool:
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on September 29, 2017, 08:32:11 PM
Thanks guys!!! I wanted to make sure that even though there are a lot of steps, it would still be easy to follow. The only problem, being a thin crust, I can consume more slices.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: bobgraff on September 29, 2017, 08:37:44 PM
Thanks for the detailed write-up!
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: jvp123 on September 29, 2017, 09:05:13 PM
Move the skin to a peel and add toppings. For the pie I used 6 oz of Strianese tomatoes, 5 oz Best Choice mozzarella and 4.5 oz Garvey's Italian sausage.  Using the peel, slide the pie onto the stone. Cook time will be around 7 minutes. Remove pie to a cooling rack. For a crisper bottom let the pie cool for about 5 minutes then slide back onto the stone for 60 seconds, you should not do more than 90 seconds to keep the bottom from burning. Move the pie to the cooling rack for at least 5 minutes before slicing.

  I wrote this walkthrough before making the pie. I wanted to make sure that I did not forget anything. I followed the directions to the letter. The verdict: The crust was very crackery with a tender and light chew. The blend of both flours seemed to work very well. It gave it the characteristics I was looking for. If you have any questions be sure to ask.

Thanks so much for the detailed post, Nick!  You’re making one of my favorite pies.  I need to get back to making these soon!  :drool: 
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: CaptBob on September 29, 2017, 09:51:42 PM
Nick,

Very nice pictorial and excellent instructions!  Beautiful pie.  :drool:

Norma

Oh yeah!! Just a great pie Nick!!
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: discusmb1 on October 04, 2017, 11:24:01 AM
So I used one of Nick's recipes last week to make a cracker crust dough with the intention of par baking and then using 6 hours later in the WFO. Got around to using it Sunday night after fermenting on the counter for 48 hours. Everything mirrored Nick's photo's and I rolled out the dough and cut into rectangles that were about the size of my wood peel. Baked for 3 minutes and they came out perfect, except for the one I forgot to dock, it looked like a piece of nan. They survived the 6 hour break on the counter and we loaded them up and fired 6 of them in the WFO.

First one browned faster than expected and before the cheese could really melt. Figured it was because I was running close to 700 degrees on the floor of the oven.

Second through 6, I reduced the temp to near 550 degrees and the cooking improved. Buffalo Mozzarella melted, the edges of the cracker were light golden brown along with the underside (sorry, I didn't take any pictures). Only downside is the flavor of the entire project was lacking. Did three reds and three whites and they seemed to be flat. I was going more neo pie on a cracker crust. Any thoughts or suggestions? Sauce was San Marzano and it almost tasted bitter with the thin crust compared to a poofed up neo crust.

Also, what would happen if I was to switch the AP with Caputo 00 as the flour for a cracker crust? Thinking without the malt in the flower, I would have a longer bake time at a slightly higher temperature before I turned it into a charcoal briquette.

Thanks for the input

Brian
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: discusmb1 on October 04, 2017, 11:26:25 AM
Oh, forgot to mention that we took the one that looked like nan, lathered it in some melted butter and sprinkled cinnamon and sugar on it. Quick baked it in the WFO and it was really good.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on October 04, 2017, 05:12:00 PM
  Brian, 700 degrees seems a little high for a cracker. I bake mine at 550 degrees, a lot of members bake theirs at 450 degrees all the way up to 550 degrees. You could try baking on a screen to increase the bake time so the top would finish at the same time the bottom is done.  If the bottom is done you could try to dome the pie to get the top to finish. Leaving out the sugar in the formula should help somewhat with the burning of the bottom. I have been using San Marzano whole tomatoes which I puree on the last three pies. I add a pinch of salt and a little sugar. After baking, the sauce has a sweet profile. I have not had any experience using Caputo 00 Flour, my oven only goes to 550 degrees which is too low for achieving a good bake. Some of our members that bake with a WFO may be more of help with that subject. Sounds like you are getting good results. Keep us informed with your progress, pics also if you can.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: Mad_Ernie on October 04, 2017, 10:15:43 PM
  Brian, 700 degrees seems a little high for a cracker. I bake mine at 550 degrees, a lot of members bake theirs at 450 degrees all the way up to 550 degrees.

You can certainly bake cracker crust pizzas at 450-550 degrees, but I recommend backing them at 600-700 degrees if possible.  My preferred cooking apparatus is a 2Stone on my gas 5-burner grill, which gets the stone up to ~700 degrees after 45-60 minutes of preheating.  I like how the heat causes the crust to bubble and gives a nice crispy crust.  :D   Sometimes the bubbling can become too excessive and you have to poke it down, like I used to see being done at Round Table and Happy Joe's back in the day.

 -ME
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on October 05, 2017, 12:54:54 PM
  ME, I imagine you get some pretty quick bake times at those temps, and a super crispy crust. I could fiddle with my oven and maybe get 585 degrees, but I think I will leave well enough alone. I enjoy all the different styles of pies I make, but I always have a craving for a cracker crust. My latest formula does very well when re-heated, almost as good as when first cooked. My past crackers the crust never quite crisped up when re-heated.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: discusmb1 on October 05, 2017, 03:33:09 PM
ME, my main problem with cooking at that high of a temp in the WFO is the direct heat coming from the fire/coals at the back of the oven. Maybe I need to get a couple of firebricks and try to make it more of an indirect heat source????
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: Mad_Ernie on October 06, 2017, 01:52:03 PM
ME, my main problem with cooking at that high of a temp in the WFO is the direct heat coming from the fire/coals at the back of the oven. Maybe I need to get a couple of firebricks and try to make it more of an indirect heat source????

Ahhh, good to know.  I have not dealt with actual wood- or coal-burning ovens, so now you are going outside my comfort zone. You may want to try the Pizza Ovens forum to see what someone with experience would recommend.  I would hate to steer you wrong.

Peace,

- ME
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on November 15, 2017, 07:05:37 PM
  As usual I can't leave well enough alone. I really like my latest formula but do have some problems I would like to solve. One of the major one's is the tendency for the crust to get too dark by the end of the bake.  That is one of the reasons why I have cut down on the par-bake time and letting the toppings warm up before placing on the crust. For this try I am using the same formula except for one change. I am going to leave out the sugar this time. Without the sugar maybe the crust will not brown as quickly. I am doing a 48 hour cf, so I am looking forward to a Friday night pie. Trying some new toppings that might cause a chuckle or two.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: jvp123 on November 15, 2017, 08:10:29 PM
Enjoying this thread, Nick!   I hope to make some of these very soon !
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on November 15, 2017, 08:42:30 PM
  Jeff, I came to the forum wanting to learn how to make a cracker crust. Still not quite there yet. In the process I learned to make a pretty decent NY style. I just recently started making pies for my friends. I thought they would like my NY styles over my cracker crusts. It was just the opposite, they like the crackers better. Go figure. I guess people like bar style pies especially after a few brews. Or cheap frozen pies that are more like crackers. After a long night at the bar, the frozen crispy crust brings back good memories.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: jvp123 on November 15, 2017, 09:23:51 PM
  Jeff, I came to the forum wanting to learn how to make a cracker crust. Still not quite there yet. In the process I learned to make a pretty decent NY style. I just recently started making pies for my friends. I thought they would like my NY styles over my cracker crusts. It was just the opposite, they like the crackers better. Go figure. I guess people like bar style pies especially after a few brews. Or cheap frozen pies that are more like crackers. After a long night at the bar, the frozen crispy crust brings back good memories.

I love a good thin and crispy with cheddar so I hear ya.  Looking forward to diving in.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: Hermit on November 15, 2017, 10:49:33 PM
I am interested to see the results.  I have been using one of your formulas on post #246 (minus the garlic powder) https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=18731.msg443590#msg443590 and it's been treating me very well at 425F for 12-14 mins.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on November 17, 2017, 07:08:07 PM
 This experiment turned out well. The crust was amazing just like my last few pies. Could not tell any difference in the texture of the crust by leaving out the sugar. The  omission of the sugar seemed to result in less browning. Sometimes in past bakes the rim would get very dark to almost tasting burnt. Looking at the pictures, the crust looks darker than it really was. No burnt flavor and the bottom browned up nicely. The toppings were ranch dressing for the sauce, mozz, chicken, and bacon. It was tasty. Maybe could have used more bacon, but of course everything could use more bacon.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on November 17, 2017, 07:48:26 PM
Forgot to mention the bake process. Par baked the skin in a cutter pan on a stone in a 550 degree oven for 2 1/2 minutes. Placed the skin on a cooling rack for 15 minutes. Topped the skin and placed back on the stone for 7 more minutes. I let the pie cool on a rack for about 10 minutes before slicing.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: jvp123 on November 17, 2017, 08:32:13 PM
Forgot to mention the bake process. Par baked the skin in a cutter pan on a stone in a 550 degree oven for 2 1/2 minutes. Placed the skin on a cooling rack for 15 minutes. Topped the skin and placed back on the stone for 7 more minutes. I let the pie cool on a rack for about 10 minutes before slicing.

Sounds and looks good Nick!  I'm ready ... not sure what I'm waiting for.  Do you recommend Crisco for the "oil" or  corn oil or?  And are you still at 11%? 

One more thing -- HG flour ok?  Or do you recommend Bread Flour?
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on November 17, 2017, 08:50:22 PM
  Thanks Jeff! I have been using corn oil for quite awhile and at 11%. For my latest version I have been using a 50/50 mix of KABF/KAAP. I like the very crispy crust with a tender light crunch. I have used KASL in the past but it seemed to make the crust too brittle with no light chew/crunch, almost like peanut brittle. My usual tester does not like pizza too much, so I started using my friends as testers since September. They really like my crackers, which leads me to believe I have been on the right track for awhile.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: jvp123 on November 17, 2017, 08:59:46 PM
  Thanks Jeff! I have been using corn oil for quite awhile and at 11%. For my latest version I have been using a 50/50 mix of KABF/KAAP. I like the very crispy crust with a tender light crunch. I have used KASL in the past but it seemed to make the crust too brittle with no light chew/crunch, almost like peanut brittle. My usual tester does not like pizza too much, so I started using my friends as testers since September. They really like my crackers, which leads me to believe I have been on the right track for awhile.

Cool thx!
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on November 17, 2017, 09:22:52 PM
   Jeff, Try the recipe at reply 286, it's my latest formula and I like it better than past attempts. It may not be what you are looking for. If you check out the thread there are different versions I've made, some that are crispy with no chew, to some that are crispy with lots of chew. Most of them are pretty good, everyone has their own idea of what they are looking for in a cracker crust. Good luck and post pics! I made a mistake with the dough calculator. I checked Kosher instead of fine sea salt. I still used 1 TSP. That's probably a little over 1.75%.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: sodface on December 27, 2017, 02:24:13 PM
Nick, I tried your recipe and workflow from post #286 except I wanted pizza for lunch, so I upped the IDY to 1/2 teaspoon and did a RT rise for about 3.25 hours.  Made the dough around 930AM and started rolling about 1245PM.

I used my hand crank food chopper (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06XBZ8S69/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1) that I use for biscuits and pie crust and it seemed to work just fine.  (That thing was cheaper back when I bought it in May).

I had two 9" pans that I used and I did grease them a little with solid Crisco.  I used your exact ingredient weights from #286 and I was able to get three 9" pies out of it, the first two I had halved the dough ball before rolling and the third one was made from the cutoffs of the first two.  It was a little harder to roll out but eventually worked.  I'm faced with a dilemma though, we were full on two so the third is sitting on the counter uncut, what to do??  Probably easier to reheat if I leave it uncut.

These are the first cracker style pizzas I've made and I gotta say they were fun to do and turned out pretty good I think, considering the short rise.  Thanks for the recipe and detailed instructions!
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: Jimmy V on December 28, 2017, 01:40:30 PM
I also let my dough proof in the fridge for 24 hours... but I think the Dough Dr.  said not to cover the bowl for the first 2 hours in the fridge.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on December 28, 2017, 06:42:53 PM
Carl, those look great!  Tip: If you let the dough ball rest in the fridge overnight, then do a 3 hour warmup on the counter, the skins are easier to roll out. Was the crust crispy with a slight chew?

Jimmy, I think the doctor was talking about higher hydration doughs, like a NY style. The cracker is so low in hydration you don't have a moisture problem. I let my NY style sit in the fridge for at least an hour uncovered. It does make a difference, the surface of the ball is not as moist or sticky.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: sodface on December 29, 2017, 12:20:35 AM
Thanks Nick!  It was really just the third one that put up a fight against the rolling pin, I was using the scraps from the first two so it'd already been rolled once and then smushed together and rolled again.  Probably needed a longer rest prior to rolling again, but I prevailed in the end.

The crust was definitely crispy with a bit of a chew.  Going to reheat #3 tomorrow for lunch  :pizza:
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: Mad_Ernie on December 29, 2017, 04:10:36 PM
Thanks Nick!  It was really just the third one that put up a fight against the rolling pin, I was using the scraps from the first two so it'd already been rolled once and then smushed together and rolled again.

There is your answer.  By incorporating the scraps of the previous 2 balls in to the 3rd one, the gluten in the dough from the first 2 had already been strengthened, making it more difficult to roll out as a whole.  It's actually not a bad thing in some ways.  Other pizza-makers' cracker recipes have advocated first rolling out a dough ball, then folding it over and rolling it out again.  It can give the crust a certain texture, and it helps to incorporate little pockets of air into the final crust which show up as a bubbled crust, which some folks like.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: sodface on December 29, 2017, 08:33:52 PM
Thanks for the feedback ME.  Pie 3 went into the fridge whole and uncut and I reheated it today at 450 on the stone.  It came out great, in some ways better than the first two.  It seemed like the crust had more air pockets and it started out a little lighter in color than the first two the other night so by the time it was reheated it was perfect.  I think rolling the scraps produced some lamination as you mentioned.  I really enjoyed it, though I might have just been especially hungry!
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: sodface on January 02, 2018, 07:48:52 AM
One more shot with Nick57's formula from #286 (isn't that how stuff like Formula 409 and WD-40 get named??  :-D ) .  This time I skipped the 9" pans with sides and used my 14" screen to shape, trim, and do the 2.5 minute par-bake on.

Turned out pretty good.  Too much moisture on the one, I might need to start sautéing the veggies and sausage again instead of going on raw.  It was a mixed session - right when I was going to start topping I dumped 24 out 28 ounces of pizza sauce all over the counter, the floor, my shoes, my pants and my shirt.  It was a freaking mess.  No pics of that for the the thread of shame though  ::)

//edit changed to 14" screen from 16".  I don't own a 16" screen.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on January 06, 2018, 06:27:02 PM
Great looking pies Carl.  :drool:
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: sodface on January 06, 2018, 09:47:00 PM
Great looking pies Carl.  :drool:

Thanks Nick!!
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: Randy on January 07, 2018, 11:38:29 AM
Hopefully, this coming week I am going to give this recipe a go on the Blackstone with no parbaking.  650F is what i will be shooting for.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on January 07, 2018, 09:28:24 PM
Hopefully, this coming week I am going to give this recipe a go on the Blackstone with no parbaking.  650F is what i will be shooting for.
I bake mine at 550 degrees. At 650 degrees be sure to keep an eye on it, the crust can burn pretty quickly at that temp. If you are using 650 degrees for the par bake, you may want to shorten the par bake time. You just want the crust to just set up, the browning will come with the final bake.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: Randy on January 08, 2018, 08:25:03 AM
I bake mine at 550 degrees. At 650 degrees be sure to keep an eye on it, the crust can burn pretty quickly at that temp. If you are using 650 degrees for the par bake, you may want to shorten the par bake time. You just want the crust to just set up, the browning will come with the final bake.

No parbakeing at that temperature Nick nor will I dock or use a pan or screen.  I use the same technique on my DKM based cracker crust.  Might not work with your recipe but it will be fun trying.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on January 10, 2018, 09:17:46 PM
Randy. Look forward to seeing your results either good or bad.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: Randy on January 26, 2018, 07:41:30 AM
Today is the day.  I had to make a couple of changes to Nicks recipe.  I would have preferred to follow it exactly.  I did not have a 1/3 teaspoon so I went with a scant half.  The second, and most important.  I do not have a food processor.  I used my kitchenaid with paddle attachment running it for one minute after the mix combined.

This will be baked in a Blackstone so that is a change. 

Anyway, if this messes up, it is my fault.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: Hermit on January 26, 2018, 08:56:26 AM
@Randy I've mixed the dough by hand and let it proof for 10H RT before, no issues, you should be golden =)
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on January 26, 2018, 12:00:53 PM
  Randy, sounds good to me. What temp are you going to bake at? I have had good results by hand mixing. Since I broke my KA food processor I was trying to figure out if I could use the KA mixer, may have to give the paddle a try. Looking forward to your results.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: Randy on January 26, 2018, 06:27:07 PM
Delicious! :D  The texture was most interesting and quite delightful.  My wife and I loved the recipe, and our thanks to Nick and the Dough Doctor.

I brought the Blackstone lower stone to 650F and while my wife prepared the pizza.  It rolled well. Since i do not use a pan, I cut the crust slightly bigger.   Say 15-16".  Then rolled the lip under to make a rim pressing it together somewhat like a pie crust.  I figure it took four minutes for the bake,  Please note no parbake.  I did dock it but next time I will try it without a dock.

Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: Randy on February 08, 2018, 06:10:35 PM
I am going to make this again but this time no docking.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on February 08, 2018, 06:49:01 PM
I think since you are cooking at higher temps and the quick bake you should be able to get away with no docking. Be sure to post pic and thoughts. Tomorrow I am making a Tony G NY style pie.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: Mad_Ernie on February 10, 2018, 09:54:22 AM
I assume you are docking your dough to avoid bubbling of the crust.  IF that is the case, then from my experience a higher temperature will actually cause more bubbling.  Just keep an eye on the pizza while it is baking, and if you see huge bubbles starting up, get a long grill fork and pop them with a couple of stabs.

-ME
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: Randy on February 11, 2018, 08:07:54 AM
I assume you are docking your dough to avoid bubbling of the crust.  IF that is the case, then from my experience a higher temperature will actually cause more bubbling.  Just keep an eye on the pizza while it is baking, and if you see huge bubbles starting up, get a long grill fork and pop them with a couple of stabs.

-ME
ME, the big bubbles I have encountered have occurred when I parbaked a thin crust pizza.  The topping seem to hold down the bubbles without a parbake on my recipe based on DKM's cracker crust.  I have not tried Nicks without docking.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: Randy on February 17, 2018, 09:21:58 PM
Tonight I made Nicks recipe for our house guest.  They loved it.  Not a slice  left.  I launched it with a bottom stone temperature between 600-650F.

I am not getting the big flaky bubbles.  I did not dock it this time but I got about the same results as docking.  The bottom was nice and crunchy and snap as I cut it.

My recipe differs with Nick because I do not have a food processor.  I used my old method of a Kitchenaid mixer using the paddle.  I run it for one minute on stir just after it is well combined.

My guess is it is either the lack of parbake or maybe I put on too much sauce.  It could be the kitchenaid mixer method as well.

Still the flavor of Nicks pizza puts it right up there at the top.

Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: nick57 on February 18, 2018, 12:35:32 PM
Randy, glad it worked out for you. I am gonna try your paddle method. I broke my KA processor at the first of the year and have not got it fixed yet.
Title: Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
Post by: Randy on February 19, 2018, 08:21:47 AM
Randy, glad it worked out for you. I am gonna try your paddle method. I broke my KA processor at the first of the year and have not got it fixed yet.

I appreciate your work on this pizza.  It works well on the Blackstone.

Steve had posted in the past, the food processor was the better method than a KA mixer but at that time he and DKM were using the dough hook.

I have tried going longer than one minute.  At about 1 min and 30 seconds you can hear a change in the motor indicating a strain.  If I go 2 min the dough is difficult to roll out.  Another interesting test would be speed 2 with a time of 30 seconds to 1 min.