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Author Topic: why would sourdough dough not rise  (Read 598 times)

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Offline Jr07

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why would sourdough dough not rise
« on: January 08, 2018, 11:47:18 PM »
calling all experts on sd pizza... i fed my starter and it doubled in size,,.... i added a spoon to a cup of water to make sure it floats... then i made my dough with 15 % starter to flour, 60 % hydration and after 24 hours it did not change shape at 72 deg F. i still made balls and baked pies but dough was rather dense...l

Offline Dangerous Salumi

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Re: why would sourdough dough not rise
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2018, 02:01:50 PM »
calling all experts on sd pizza... i fed my starter and it doubled in size,,.... i added a spoon to a cup of water to make sure it floats... then i made my dough with 15 % starter to flour, 60 % hydration and after 24 hours it did not change shape at 72 deg F. i still made balls and baked pies but dough was rather dense...l

How much salt were you using?
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Offline yarbrough462

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Re: why would sourdough dough not rise
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2018, 02:31:39 PM »
calling all experts on sd pizza... i fed my starter and it doubled in size,,.... i added a spoon to a cup of water to make sure it floats... then i made my dough with 15 % starter to flour, 60 % hydration and after 24 hours it did not change shape at 72 deg F. i still made balls and baked pies but dough was rather dense...l

I am far from an expert but everything I have read here says that higher concentrations of sourdough lead to dense dough...I'd contact TXCraig directly and ask him.  He is the resident expert.  I believe he is using under 2% on his bakes.  How did you arrive at the 15%?  Was that in line with Craig's sourdough prediction model based on the time and temp of your fermentation period?
« Last Edit: January 09, 2018, 02:48:17 PM by yarbrough462 »

Offline Dangerous Salumi

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Re: why would sourdough dough not rise
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2018, 05:20:09 PM »
I am far from an expert but everything I have read here says that higher concentrations of sourdough lead to dense dough...

Its been my experience that higher concentrations leads to a "less dense" dough. To be more clear a dough that has higher hydration post fermentation

TXCraig directly and ask him.  He is the resident expert. 

"The Dough Doctor is the resident expert" would be a more correct statement.

I believe he is using under 2% on his bakes.  How did you arrive at the 15%? 

2% is a very small amount. 20% is much more in line with what would be recommended by The American Baking Institute and King Arthur Flour.

Was that in line with Craig's sourdough prediction model based on the time and temp of your fermentation period?

Be careful with the "models" as they are only a highly simplified portrayal of a rather complex system of reactions. I believe that their premises are also suspect.
Have a Dangerous day!


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Offline jsaras

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Re: why would sourdough dough not rise
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2018, 05:27:31 PM »
2% is a very small amount. 20% is much more in line with what would be recommended by The American Baking Institute and King Arthur Flour.

I've used 2% sourdough (and under) with room temperature fermentation for the last several years and it works like clockwork. 
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Online mitchjg

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Re: why would sourdough dough not rise
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2018, 06:17:21 PM »
I've used 2% sourdough (and under) with room temperature fermentation for the last several years and it works like clockwork.

As have I.  Great results with 2%.  I also get very good results using 10%, 20% and more.  There are some textural and flavor differences that are difficult to describe and I would definitely rely upon Craig for his expertise.

But, there is no reason to have a fail or poor dough at 15% SD...................UNLESS, for example, your fermentation approach is off.  That is what is going on here - back to the OP's post and questions.

24 hours at 15% SD at 72 degrees room temperature is going to give you a poor dough.  The dough, at that SD, temperature and time is going to be way over fermented.  Assuming that is what the OP really did, the dough was probably ready at about 11 hours +/-, as opposed to 24 hours.

So, waiting 24 hours probably blew the dough - overfermented and depleted - hence, dense with no rise.

The fermentation schedules that are here: https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=22649.0 are, at this point tried and true.  They work. 

Jr07:  If you want a 24 hour dough at 72 degrees, you need about 10% of the SD you used.  If you want to use 15% at 72 then you need to shorten up the ferment.  If you want 15% for 25 hours, you need to ferment at a lower temperature.  You will have to fine tune the use of the chart by calibrating to your own experience.  Everyone's SD is a little different as are there mixing protocols as are there flour and recipe, etc.  But, this chart will get you damn close and you take it from there.



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Offline Dangerous Salumi

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Re: why would sourdough dough not rise
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2018, 06:25:58 PM »
As have I.  Great results with 2%.  I also get very good results using 10%, 20% and more.  There are some textural and flavor differences that are difficult to describe and I would definitely rely upon Craig for his expertise.

But, there is no reason to have a fail or poor dough at 15% SD...................UNLESS, for example, your fermentation approach is off.  That is what is going on here - back to the OP's post and questions.

24 hours at 15% SD at 72 degrees room temperature is going to give you a poor dough.  The dough, at that SD, temperature and time is going to be way over fermented.  Assuming that is what the OP really did, the dough was probably ready at about 11 hours +/-, as opposed to 24 hours.

So, waiting 24 hours probably blew the dough - overfermented and depleted - hence, dense with no rise.

The fermentation schedules that are here: https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=22649.0 are, at this point tried and true.  They work. 

Jr07:  If you want a 24 hour dough at 72 degrees, you need about 10% of the SD you used.  If you want to use 15% at 72 then you need to shorten up the ferment.  If you want 15% for 25 hours, you need to ferment at a lower temperature.  You will have to fine tune the use of the chart by calibrating to your own experience.  Everyone's SD is a little different as are there mixing protocols as are there flour and recipe, etc.  But, this chart will get you damn close and you take it from there.

Or you could do 20% levain  60% hydration with a 3-5 day cold ferment and a 2-3 hour room temp and get great dough.
Have a Dangerous day!


“They say that competitive eating is the battleground upon which God and Lucifer wage war for mens souls my friends, and they are right.”  - George Shea, Chairman, Major League Eating

Online mitchjg

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Re: why would sourdough dough not rise
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2018, 06:34:43 PM »
Or you could do 20% levain  60% hydration with a 3-5 day cold ferment and a 2-3 hour room temp and get great dough.

My point about the various options was directed at describing the interplay of time, room temperature levels and SD amount.  A cold storage of the dough (vs no cold storage) seems not to be germane.

As far as a "great" dough, I am glad you like it because you seem to be happy with  that CF protocol.  I do not think it leads to great dough, neither in handling nor flavor, nor does anyone else that I have, as of yet, come across.  But, this is old territory.
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Offline Dangerous Salumi

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Re: why would sourdough dough not rise
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2018, 06:49:22 PM »
My point about the various options was directed at describing the interplay of time, room temperature levels and SD amount.  A cold storage of the dough (vs no cold storage) seems not to be germane.

As far as a "great" dough, I am glad you like it because you seem to be happy with  that CF protocol.  I do not think it leads to great dough, neither in handling nor flavor, nor does anyone else that I have, as of yet, come across.  But, this is old territory.

Grown men arguing about levain %s, ferment times and temperatures... gotta love this place.
Have a Dangerous day!


“They say that competitive eating is the battleground upon which God and Lucifer wage war for mens souls my friends, and they are right.”  - George Shea, Chairman, Major League Eating

Offline Dangerous Salumi

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Re: why would sourdough dough not rise
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2018, 07:22:29 PM »
I do not think it leads to great dough, neither in handling nor flavor, nor does anyone else that I have, as of yet, come across.  But, this is old territory.

I disagree and so would many others. “Flavor takes time”

Fermentation with a natural culture is not “old territory”. Some would believe is a new frontier in pizza.
Have a Dangerous day!


“They say that competitive eating is the battleground upon which God and Lucifer wage war for mens souls my friends, and they are right.”  - George Shea, Chairman, Major League Eating

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Online mitchjg

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Re: why would sourdough dough not rise
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2018, 07:31:53 PM »
I disagree and so would many others. “Flavor takes time”

Fermentation with a natural culture is not “old territory”. Some would believe is a new frontier in pizza.

Of course, "flavor takes time" - no argument there.  The comment about "old territory" was not about the idea of fermentation with a a natural culture - it was about your personal preference for multi day CF SD doughs.  Duly noted that you have that preference.
Mitch

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Offline janes_mw

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Re: why would sourdough dough not rise
« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2018, 08:46:56 PM »
Took me 5-6 tries with my SD culture. As TXcraig told me, it’s not an exact science! Last week it was 5% with 4 hr Room temp ferment folled by a 48 hr. Cold ferment. This was 00 flour and then done in my pizza party at stone temp of 750.  Was great, but I had a lot of not so great experiments getting to it.
Always looking for the best! Haven't found it yet, but damn fun looking!!!!

Offline jsaras

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why would sourdough dough not rise
« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2018, 10:01:18 PM »
I disagree and so would many others. “Flavor takes time”

Fermentation with a natural culture is not “old territory”. Some would believe is a new frontier in pizza.

Fermenting bread dough with natural yeast at room temperatures dates back to at least ancient Egypt.  It may be new on a geologic scale
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Offline yarbrough462

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Re: why would sourdough dough not rise
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2018, 03:11:56 AM »
Its been my experience that higher concentrations leads to a "less dense" dough. To be more clear a dough that has higher hydration post fermentation

"The Dough Doctor is the resident expert" would be a more correct statement.

2% is a very small amount. 20% is much more in line with what would be recommended by The American Baking Institute and King Arthur Flour.

Be careful with the "models" as they are only a highly simplified portrayal of a rather complex system of reactions. I believe that their premises are also suspect.

Why did you choose to reply to my post and cut it apart?  Everything I said was accurate.  The fact that you think that your way is the only way is funny...BTW, both of Craig's prediction models have been spot on for pretty much everyone that has used them.  It is directly inline with what we do in a full time pizzeria (not mine, I just work there sometimes...)...OP, like any advice, I'd always consider the source.  If you look up the posts of the folks replying, you can get a pretty good idea if they can make pizza or not...TxCraig, jsaras and mitchjg are pretty accomplished pizza makers.

EDITED TO ADD:

DS, I just took a look at your older posts on these subjects and figured out why you cut my post apart.  You have a personal issue with TXCraig and are therefore trying to discredit his work.  Good luck with that...   
« Last Edit: January 10, 2018, 06:28:53 AM by yarbrough462 »

Offline yarbrough462

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Re: why would sourdough dough not rise
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2018, 03:18:40 AM »
As have I.  Great results with 2%.  I also get very good results using 10%, 20% and more.  There are some textural and flavor differences that are difficult to describe and I would definitely rely upon Craig for his expertise.

But, there is no reason to have a fail or poor dough at 15% SD...................UNLESS, for example, your fermentation approach is off.  That is what is going on here - back to the OP's post and questions.

24 hours at 15% SD at 72 degrees room temperature is going to give you a poor dough.  The dough, at that SD, temperature and time is going to be way over fermented.  Assuming that is what the OP really did, the dough was probably ready at about 11 hours +/-, as opposed to 24 hours.

So, waiting 24 hours probably blew the dough - overfermented and depleted - hence, dense with no rise.

The fermentation schedules that are here: https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=22649.0 are, at this point tried and true.  They work. 

Jr07:  If you want a 24 hour dough at 72 degrees, you need about 10% of the SD you used.  If you want to use 15% at 72 then you need to shorten up the ferment.  If you want 15% for 25 hours, you need to ferment at a lower temperature.  You will have to fine tune the use of the chart by calibrating to your own experience.  Everyone's SD is a little different as are there mixing protocols as are there flour and recipe, etc.  But, this chart will get you damn close and you take it from there.

Agree with all.  The point I was making with my first post is that you can't just arbitrarily pick a SD amount. Picking a certain percentage and hydration level and saying that will make good pizza is ludicrous...There are other factors that are in play.  Your percentage has to be in line with what is needed based on time and temperature.  Room temp in your house is different that room temp in mine.  The temps in our fridge vary.  I have no doubt that one could pick an arbitrary amount and come up with good dough sometime in a two day window (like saying 3-5 days of cold temp ferment) but most of us like to plan a little better than that...That is why I recommend TXCraig's model as a starting point.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2018, 06:26:26 AM by yarbrough462 »

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Offline Dangerous Salumi

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Re: why would sourdough dough not rise
« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2018, 07:57:57 AM »
Why did you choose to reply to my post and cut it apart?  ...

Don't take it personally. This is a forum after all.

"forum. Public medium (such as a newspaper column) or place used for debates in which anyone can participate. In Roman times it meant a public place at the center of a market or town where open discussions on judicial, political, and other issues were held."

BTW, both of Craig's prediction models have been spot on for pretty much everyone that has used them....

Ok if you believe that, good for you.

TxCraig, jsaras and mitchjg are pretty accomplished pizza makers.

This is true

You have a personal issue with TXCraig ....

I think its actually quite the opposite.

DS, I just took a look at your older posts on these subjects.....

On some forums that might be considered stalking.

....trying to discredit his work.  Good luck with that...

You could have "a critical look at someones work" confused with "a personal attack".

Have a Dangerous day!


“They say that competitive eating is the battleground upon which God and Lucifer wage war for mens souls my friends, and they are right.”  - George Shea, Chairman, Major League Eating

Offline yarbrough462

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Re: why would sourdough dough not rise
« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2018, 08:19:14 AM »
Don't take it personally. This is a forum after all.



You could have "a critical look at someones work" confused with "a personal attack".

As long as you remember that when people reply to your posts...

Offline yarbrough462

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Re: why would sourdough dough not rise
« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2018, 01:49:02 PM »
calling all experts on sd pizza... i fed my starter and it doubled in size,,.... i added a spoon to a cup of water to make sure it floats... then i made my dough with 15 % starter to flour, 60 % hydration and after 24 hours it did not change shape at 72 deg F. i still made balls and baked pies but dough was rather dense...l

Great thread here:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=20479.0

Offline Jr07

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Re: why would sourdough dough not rise
« Reply #18 on: January 16, 2018, 06:09:54 AM »
good answers as always, specially that last thread from Craig which I had not seen.
i’m still not sure though as to what is the effect on the pizza based on percentage of starter . Craig uses 2% and ken forkish reccomends 20% in flour, water, yeast. both great end products but Im surprised that the range is so wide. they cant be both right can they?

Offline the1mu

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Re: why would sourdough dough not rise
« Reply #19 on: January 16, 2018, 06:32:07 AM »
Yes they can both be right. The answer, as always, is “it depends”.

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