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Author Topic: Pizza Shelf - on www.kickstarter.com  (Read 990 times)

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Offline norcoscia

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Pizza Shelf - on www.kickstarter.com
« on: January 22, 2018, 11:23:36 AM »
Hi, I received this a bit ago - it is a new home oven gadget for making NP pies. I don't know if it works or not just posting as FYI in case someone wants to take a look.


---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Rotio at Pizza Shelf <[email protected]>
Date: Mon, Jan 22, 2018 at 8:02 AM
Subject: Pizza Shelf Just Went Live!


Good morning everyone, it's Rotio from Pizza Shelf!

And, I'm letting you know FIRST...

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/258410750/pizza-shelf-wood-fired-pizza-in-your-oven-in-90-se

And JUST for today...

You can get your Pizza Shelf using your VIP - Launch Day Special discount for a HUGE $40 off retail...

But this deal is ONLY available for the first 50 backers…

Or until the clock hits 11:59 PM PDT tonight…

Whichever comes first!

So make sure to take advantage, using this link:

Click Here To Get Your Pizza Shelf For $40 Off

Also, because there are just 50 VIP - Launch Day Special slots available...

My recommendation is to act NOW...

When news of our launch is still quiet...

And before all of the VIP reward slots are taken!

Reserve Your Pizza Shelf (Only 50 Available!)

Talk soon,

- Rotio
 
Founder
Pizza Shelf
Unsubscribe | Pizza Shelf 218 Overlook Avenue Leonia, NJ 07605 USA

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Norm

Online mitchjg

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Re: Pizza Shelf - on www.kickstarter.com
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2018, 12:45:07 PM »
I took a quick look and scanned some of the items and claims.  There is item that explains that it bakes Neapolitan pizzas in 2 or 3 minutes each.

So, not Neapolitan but pretty darned hot/quick.  That time is more compatible with a bake in the 700s.
Mitch

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Offline Jersey Pie Boy

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Re: Pizza Shelf - on www.kickstarter.com
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2018, 12:53:39 PM »
Only testing will tell... Is this better than steel and broiler?

Offline anthony.rotio

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Re: Pizza Shelf - on www.kickstarter.com
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2018, 02:12:57 PM »
Hey All! Rotio here, creator of Pizza Shelf! Ask me anything :)

Also, Jersey Pie Boy, great username, I'm from Jersey as well

Online Rolls

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Re: Pizza Shelf - on www.kickstarter.com
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2018, 03:16:30 PM »
Hi Rotio,

How would you describe the texture of an average pizza baked on the shelf?  Soft and pliable like Neapolitan or more crispy like NY style?

Best of luck with your venture.


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Offline anthony.rotio

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Re: Pizza Shelf - on www.kickstarter.com
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2018, 04:10:54 PM »
Depends on the dough and how you set up Pizza Shelf.

For New York Style - traditional nyc dough and oven at about 550 will yield a NY style pizza
For Neapolitan - a high hydration Neapolitan dough using preheat then broiler (with our heat reflecting walls) will yield a nice tender Neapolitan pie in about 90 seconds

In the Kickstarter video, you can see a single pie baked in under 90 seconds for reference. We created Pizza Shelf specifically for Neapolitan pies

Online mitchjg

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Re: Pizza Shelf - on www.kickstarter.com
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2018, 04:21:29 PM »
Did misinterpret this FAQ item?:

"
Yes, it does take some time to preheat, about 30 minutes on max "bake" setting, then 15-20 minutes with the broiler cranking. Once you're there though, you can turn out Neapolitan pizzas at 2 or 3 minutes each so you can be pretty efficient about making a lot of food quickly once you get there. Regular "New York Style" pizzas take more like 5 or 6 minutes.
"

That is why I made the comment about them not hitting 90 seconds or less for a Neapolitan.

Thanks

Mitch

“We hate math,” says 4 in 10 – a majority of Americans

Offline anthony.rotio

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Re: Pizza Shelf - on www.kickstarter.com
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2018, 04:34:11 PM »
Good point - in the FAQs we were trying to be a bit more generous with the times we mentioned because everyone's oven has slightly different BTU output but most oven's we've tested have hit 90 seconds pretty easily

Offline norcoscia

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Re: Pizza Shelf - on www.kickstarter.com
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2018, 05:31:43 PM »
Good information - now the big question - will there be any special discounts for PizzaMaking.com orders   :-D
Norm

Offline MisterPKM

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Re: Pizza Shelf - on www.kickstarter.com
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2018, 07:06:59 PM »
This seems really cool. Many folks have been tripping their oven's thermometer with an extra stone or steel on the top shelf.

Any thoughts on how your oven will hold up after using this a bunch? Is it safe for your oven?

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Offline Jersey Pie Boy

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Re: Pizza Shelf - on www.kickstarter.com
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2018, 09:58:56 AM »
Thanks Anthony...actually that's my birth name...from the legendary NJ Boy family... :-D  Okay, maybe not


Good luck with your new idea! I think a lot of us would be interested to see some detailed results.

Offline oronzous

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Re: Pizza Shelf - on www.kickstarter.com
« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2018, 03:00:28 PM »
it's an interesting concept.  I like the results i get with steel+preheat+broil, so the walls should get me closer to neapolitan territory.

Question:  why do you bake with the oven door open?

Suggestion: increasing the thickness of the shelf bottom in order to improve recovery times (if they are a concern, I don't know)

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Pizza Shelf - on www.kickstarter.com
« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2018, 04:14:24 PM »
I highly doubt the temperature is anywhere near 1000F (deck temperature as is the general convention here). My guess is that they are measuring the reflected heat off the broiler. At 1000F, the pizza would be done in less than 60 seconds.

The pictures show the expected excessive top heat imbalance, however some of the pies in the video look more evenly browned. I wonder what is the difference? I'd also be curious to see some bottom shots. I wouldn't be surprised if they were very light/white particularly if you are baking a pizza every 2-3 minutes like it says in the FAQ.

anthony.rotio, your physics are incorrect as described:
Quote
Emissivity is physical property of surfaces that determines how much heat is reflected.

Emissivity describes how much heat is absorbed and re-emitted. Reflectivity is how much heat is reflected (assuming a non-transparent object, reflectivity = 1-emissivity). The reflective walls are an interesting idea, but I wonder how it help in the deck? Radiant heat from the deck is important in baking the underside of the pizza, and you're cutting that way back with the low emmisivity surface. Also, stainless conductivity is a lot lower than a typical baking steel. Lastly, there isn't much mass there in the steel under the pie which will also regain heat slowly due to the high reflectivity. It's these things that make me wonder about bottom of the pizza not being properly baked.

"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
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Offline norcoscia

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Re: Pizza Shelf - on www.kickstarter.com
« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2018, 04:30:46 PM »
Craig, you know I'm not an NP guy but I still think this stuff is interesting - do you think changing the distance to the broiler could help dial in just the right balance of top and bottom heat.

I would imagine this might be necessary as different ovens would have different broilers and slightly different rack positions. Small adjustments could be made by stacking bricks / tiles under the shelf and using different rack positions.
Norm

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Pizza Shelf - on www.kickstarter.com
« Reply #14 on: January 23, 2018, 04:59:32 PM »
I don't know. This may be the inverse of the grill problem - not enough bottom heat to balance the top heat. If it take the Pizza Shelf being right under the broiler to hit 90 seconds, I wouldn't think you'd need to lower it very much before you dropped well out of the Neapolitan range.

Also, Neapolitan is not defined strictly by 90 seconds. There are any number of attributes that you start to lose as the time approaches 90 seconds, and just because time is less than 90 seconds doesn't mean you have those attributes in the first place. I don't see Neapolitan pizza in the pictures on the website.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
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Offline anthony.rotio

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Re: Pizza Shelf - on www.kickstarter.com
« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2018, 05:11:25 PM »
Wow - I missed out on a bunch yesterday! Thanks for the interest and the conversation! Let me see if I can address some of the points here.

I highly doubt the temperature is anywhere near 1000F (deck temperature as is the general convention here). My guess is that they are measuring the reflected heat off the broiler. At 1000F, the pizza would be done in less than 60 seconds.

We made the mistake early on of having the whole baking surface mirrored and we were taking some readings that were simply reflections of the broiler. For later prototypes, we smartened up and roughed up the baking surface so it would absorb more heat. There is obviously variation with distance from broiler, btus of broiler, geometry of broiler, etc but we've achieved 1k degree temps in some test ovens with near sixty second pies, we definitely want to be transparent and set expectations correctly, though, so we're not pushing our best tests as the general case. If you look at the chart in the body of the Kickstarter page that was an early prototype where I used a black steel base.

I'd encourage anyone who is skeptical of the results to try the simple experiment I did that led me to invent Pizza Shelf:
Test 1: take your stone or steel, put it on your top rack, preheat to max, then crank the broiler. Take temp readings until you've reached a plateau.
Test 2: after it's cooled, create aluminum foil walls (try to keep them as flat an un-crinkled as possible) mimicking the design of Pizza Shelf (even create a front wall if you want to go all out). Repeat Test 1 with your very own early Pizza Shelf prototype.

Frankly, for you pros in this forum who are used to hacks, you can probably use this method whenever you want to make Neapolitan pizza and don't even need to buy a Pizza Shelf. Stainless with our finishes has lower emissivity than aluminum and obviously you don't have to recreate your tool every time if you buy Pizza Shelf but I'd use the aluminum foil method until you've proved to yourself it works. We put a similar comment in the FAQ as well.

The pictures show the expected excessive top heat imbalance, however some of the pies in the video look more evenly browned. I wonder what is the difference? I'd also be curious to see some bottom shots. I wouldn't be surprised if they were very light/white particularly if you are baking a pizza every 2-3 minutes like it says in the FAQ.
Some of the more evenly browned ones (with little to no leoparding) were baked at an oven setting of 550 with no broiler on for a much longer bake. Again, we didn't want to overpromise and show every pie with a top notch crust in case people run into a pie every now and then that's not perfect at home (due to broiler cycling or some other imperfect context). Bottoms are not as dark as with my half inch black plate steel for sure but they do get some caramelization - certainly not any unpleasant uncooked dough. Again this varies with broiler strength, geometry, distance from surface, etc. Last night we did a pie every few minutes for 15 pies in a row without any dropoff in quality. I should do the Newton's Law of Cooling math on the system. In fact, I should do a whole white paper on the tech of the product. You've inspired me Craig! Hopefully I can get to this ASAP - will be a fun project!

anthony.rotio, your physics are incorrect as described:
Emissivity describes how much heat is absorbed and re-emitted. Reflectivity is how much heat is reflected (assuming a non-transparent object, reflectivity = 1-emissivity). The reflective walls are an interesting idea, but I wonder how it help in the deck? Radiant heat from the deck is important in baking the underside of the pizza, and you're cutting that way back with the low emmisivity surface. Also, stainless conductivity is a lot lower than a typical baking steel. Lastly, there isn't much mass there in the steel under the pie which will also regain heat slowly due to the high reflectivity. It's these things that make me wonder about bottom of the pizza not being properly baked.

RE: emissivity vs reflectivity - they measure the same thing but are inverses per your comment. Either measure determines how much heat is reflected (low-emissivity = high-reflectivity) so the way I worded it is sound, if nuanced. Might change the working there to make it more clear. Thanks for pointing out the ambiguity. We made a conscious decision to use "emissivity" in all of our communications for a few reasons, one of which being that we didn't want anyone grabbing plastic-backed mirrors and trying to use them in an oven to simulate the effect if we called it "reflectivity."

Question:  why do you bake with the oven door open?
For ovens where the broiler cycles often, we sometimes leave the door cracked so the broiler stays on rather than trying to time it correctly (we still net higher temperatures and faster bakes for our tests this way, even with the heat lost to the environment through the crack). But for the ones in the video that were wide open, specifically, it was to get some sexy marketing content :)
Suggestion: increasing the thickness of the shelf bottom in order to improve recovery times (if they are a concern, I don't know)
It's a good suggestion and something we've had to balance with the desired heft of the product (12lbs currently, $20 to ship). Definitely don't want to go too much higher on either of those items. The real balancing act, however, is in the cost. Stainless Steel is so freaking expensive! We think we've found the sweet spot on the performance vs cost curve.

Also, Neapolitan is not defined strictly by 90 seconds. There are any number of attributes that you start to lose as the time approaches 90 seconds, and just because time is less than 90 seconds doesn't mean you have those attributes in the first place. I don't see Neapolitan pizza in the pictures on the website.
Again, we're trying not to overpromise, especially with the project picture which is not Neapolitan by my standards. Cool thing is, we got to have the Pizzaiolo from Eataly (originally from Naples) stop by last night and test it, he cranked out a few nice ones he considered Neapolitan by his standards (which are obviously a little more refined than mine). https://www.instagram.com/p/BeUHA0MFcfg/?taken-by=pizzashelf - this was in a small NYC oven where we maxed out just under 800 degrees on the gun. https://www.instagram.com/p/Bd1RjVMFxyy/?taken-by=pizzashelf - here's one I turned out a couple of weeks ago on an oven with some more umph.

Thank you all so much for your input and questions! Definitely won't claim to have every answer - and certainly don't claim to know everything there is to know about pizza - but I will do my best to answer all of them honestly and transparently!



Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Pizza Shelf - on www.kickstarter.com
« Reply #16 on: January 25, 2018, 12:31:15 PM »
We made the mistake early on of having the whole baking surface mirrored and we were taking some readings that were simply reflections of the broiler. For later prototypes, we smartened up and roughed up the baking surface so it would absorb more heat. There is obviously variation with distance from broiler, btus of broiler, geometry of broiler, etc but we've achieved 1k degree temps in some test ovens with near sixty second pies,

I still don’t think you’re measuring what you think you’re measuring. There is an easy way to know for sure. Close the oven door and turn off the lights. At 900F steel will glow faint red. At 1,000 you should be able to see the glow easily in a dark oven even with the kitchen lights on.

Another easy test would be to adjust your IR thermometer to the proper emissivity setting and take the temperature of the bottom of the bottom of the Pizza Shelf. It should be similar to what you are measuring on top. Or even better, mount a thermocouple on the bottom.

Yet another easy test would be to hold a cold baking sheet above the Pizza Shelf, blocking the IR from the broiler, and then measure the temp of the Pizza Shelf with the IR thermometer.

Quote
If you look at the chart in the body of the Kickstarter page that was an early prototype where I used a black steel base.

Was your steel a lot thicker than the shelf? AOTBE, black steel should heat faster than stainless, no? That chart shows the stainless heating faster.

I typically bake at 850-875F on a deck with a thermal conductivity of ~0.4W/mK. Stainless is at least 40X more conductive. My bake times are 45-55 seconds. If the Pizza Shelf is really 900-1000F, wouldn’t the bottoms of your pies be black? If the temp is that high and the bottoms aren’t black, that would have to mean that there is very little heat stored in the deck material, and if that’s the case, how are you baking pies every few minutes without the bottoms being stark white? Both the physics and the empirical evidence seems to suggest that the temperature is nowhere near 900F. My guess is that if you were to measure it with a thermocouple that is shielded from the broiler, it would be closer to 600F.

Quote
I'd encourage anyone who is skeptical of the results to try the simple experiment I did that led me to invent Pizza Shelf:
Test 1: take your stone or steel, put it on your top rack, preheat to max, then crank the broiler. Take temp readings until you've reached a plateau.
Test 2: after it's cooled, create aluminum foil walls (try to keep them as flat an un-crinkled as possible) mimicking the design of Pizza Shelf (even create a front wall if you want to go all out). Repeat Test 1 with your very own early Pizza Shelf prototype.

When you did this experiment, what was the temperature of the steel or stone?

Quote
Some of the more evenly browned ones (with little to no leoparding) were baked at an oven setting of 550 with no broiler on for a much longer bake. Again, we didn't want to overpromise and show every pie with a top notch crust in case people run into a pie every now and then that's not perfect at home (due to broiler cycling or some other imperfect context). Bottoms are not as dark as with my half inch black plate steel for sure but they do get some caramelization - certainly not any unpleasant uncooked dough. Again this varies with broiler strength, geometry, distance from surface, etc. Last night we did a pie every few minutes for 15 pies in a row without any dropoff in quality. I should do the Newton's Law of Cooling math on the system. In fact, I should do a whole white paper on the tech of the product. You've inspired me Craig! Hopefully I can get to this ASAP - will be a fun project!

It would be a lot more interesting and informative to simply mount a couple thermocouples on the center and edge of the Pizza Shelf and use a data logger to record a temperature profile during a series of bakes like you mention above.

It would be helpful if you posted pictures of the bottoms of the pizza. Showing just the top of a pizza doesn’t tell the viewer very much. Lots of beautiful on top pies are way too dark/light on the bottom. This is very common with NP hacks.

Quote
RE: emissivity vs reflectivity - they measure the same thing but are inverses per your comment. Either measure determines how much heat is reflected (low-emissivity = high-reflectivity) so the way I worded it is sound, if nuanced. Might change the working there to make it more clear. Thanks for pointing out the ambiguity. We made a conscious decision to use "emissivity" in all of our communications for a few reasons, one of which being that we didn't want anyone grabbing plastic-backed mirrors and trying to use them in an oven to simulate the effect if we called it "reflectivity."

No, the statement is simply wrong as is saying emissivity and reflectivity measure the same thing. They don’t, and they don’t always add to 1 – not even with all metals do they add to 1. The only reason you can nuance it is because steel is not transmissive at IR wavelengths.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2018, 12:34:47 PM by TXCraig1 »
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
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Offline anthony.rotio

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Re: Pizza Shelf - on www.kickstarter.com
« Reply #17 on: January 27, 2018, 12:07:48 PM »
Craig - awesome points! Will definitely buy a thermocouple thermometer and take some measurements. Do you have a good model your recommend that's easy to get the data off of (removable media, usb, bluetooth, etc)? Thanks! You're probably right and there's a good chance we're coming in somewhere in the 600-800 range on the deck when you remove the reflected IR (even on the dull, non-mirrored surface finish of the deck) - looking forward to digging into the data with you and including it in a whitepaper or video describing the science of all of this in more detail.

1 = Transmitted E + Reflected E + Emitted E but as you said, stainless isn't transmissive at IR λ so for stainless
1 = Reflected E + Emitted E so either measure is sufficient to describe reflectivity or emissivity in totality. In this case the emissivity does determine how much heat is reflected.
Again - totally could word it better and be more clear - and you're absolutely right that it's not true in the general case, thank you for pointing that out

Offline anthony.rotio

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Re: Pizza Shelf - on www.kickstarter.com
« Reply #18 on: January 27, 2018, 12:15:37 PM »
Also, just finally checked out some of your pies and garage setup - both are gorgeous, man! Well done! Let's keep up the conversation, definitely want to continue to get your feedback and input as we continue down the Pizza Shelf path on our end!

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