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  • #801 by Caaleb on 18 Jan 2021
  • Mine get pretty flat too.

    I'd suggest trying

    62%
    3% salt
    2% culture
    no EVOO

    Keep the temp the same. Ball after 36 hours.

    Thank you Craig. I just mixed a 1:1:1 refresh and when it peaks Iím going to make this formula. My room thermometer came today so I should be able to hold a steady temp.
  • #802 by Caaleb on 20 Jan 2021
  • I know this is a NP thread hope my NYish attempt is ok to post here. Going for light, crispy, airy. Tried not to over ferment this one, but it might have been a bit. Gluten was perfect!! Stretched beautifully.  36 hours bulk 12 balled. The crumb shows collapsed gluten from slight over fermentation correct?

    I tried going a bit slower with this one, about 6-7 min. Iím using a screen to launch right on the stone. The ooni koda 16 is very cramped when trying to launch 14-15inch pies, as well as issues with uneven heating. Really wish I had just got a large steel for my oven. after about 1.5 min I placed it directly on the stone. I think Iím having oven spring issues, might try a higher flame during the screen launch.

    I think I over baker it a tad and it was a little dry and tough. Next pie Iíll fire faster and it itís still dry I might try 63 or 64. I donít feel like I got much fermentation flavor. I used a somewhat younger and small 1:1:1 starter refresh to get the starter for the dough, that could be why. My starter was just a random dehydrated ischia starter I got for super cheap off ebay. Thank you. Constructive criticism from anyone very welcome.


    Edit: 2nd baked wasnít as over cooked, definitely more tender. Still a bit dry.
  • #803 by earlobe on 05 Feb 2021
  • Thanks, Craig, for the guidance on your method. I followed along with a few modifications - I used my own sourdough starter and I used Central Milling's 00 flour. I increased hydration to 68.5%.

    Bulk took about 18 hours to get where it looked right, and I balled and put them outside in quite cool (45-55F) temps overnight, bringing them in around noon. I had to bump them in a proofing oven at 80 for about an hour before baking to get them active enough.

    Not perfect by any means, but cooked in my Breville they were done in under 2 minutes and very crisp-tender.

  • #804 by EthanPizza on 15 Apr 2021

  • 1) Dissolve the salt in the water.
    2) Mix in the culture until itís pretty well dissolved. I use a hand whisk and froth it up some too.


    Hey, Craig. I've been reading up on your work, and am thuroughly impressed.

    I had been making batches with 16% starter, but currently have some dough balls with 2% proofing, which seems crazy low, but I shall Trust my starter!

    Here's my issue, if I follow your steps, my culture clumps up every time i add it to salt water, so I'm dissolving starter first, then adding flour and salt at the end. Is there some trick to get the starter to mix into salt water, I tried heating the water, I tried doing a little bit at a time, I tried a wire whisk, but no matter what I do, it becomes a gummy undissolved clump every time. Could it be that my starter is too stiff, it's used at peak of rise or just before at 50% hydration.

    Thanks
  • #805 by TXCraig1 on 15 Apr 2021
  • I've never had that problem. I use a whisk. My starter is ~100% HR.
  • #806 by EthanPizza on 15 Apr 2021
  • I've never had that problem. I use a whisk. My starter is ~100% HR.

    Whoops, i meant 100% not 50%.
    Odd. It happened repeatedly. Very parcular indeed. None the less, completely blown away by how much excessive amount of starter I have been using.

    I'm interested to see what happens with these lower % of starter.

    Here's one of my 16% starters, I tend to do cannoto, but I'll be trying a more traditional with your recipe.

    Super curious on what's going on with it getting gummy.

    Thanks for responding and keep doing the puzza gods' work good sir.
  • #807 by parallei on 15 Apr 2021
  • .............
    Here's my issue, if I follow your steps, my culture clumps up every time i add it to salt water, so I'm dissolving starter first, then adding flour and salt at the end.


    I've had the same issue. The salt in the water really tightens up the starter.

    Like yourself, I add the salt at the end. I hold back a bit of water and after a rough mix add the salt and held back water and squish it all in there. Like the Tartine bread method.
  • #808 by Icelandr on 15 Apr 2021
  • Apologies if unrelated . . . I add salt to flour and mix with spoon or whisk, measure water, then add Sourdough to water and whisk in. Two bowls, I add the flour and salt mix to the water sourdough mix, slowly mixing with my fingers, then my hands . . .not exactly a diving arm mixer but close!
  • #809 by EthanPizza on 16 Apr 2021
  • I've had the same issue. The salt in the water really tightens up the starter.

    Like yourself, I add the salt at the end. I hold back a bit of water and after a rough mix add the salt and held back water and squish it all in there. Like the Tartine bread method.


    Yup. Otherwise, i just mix it in with flour and that seems fine as well!
  • #810 by EthanPizza on 16 Apr 2021
  • Apologies if unrelated . . . I add salt to flour and mix with spoon or whisk, measure water, then add Sourdough to water and whisk in. Two bowls, I add the flour and salt mix to the water sourdough mix, slowly mixing with my fingers, then my hands . . .not exactly a diving arm mixer but close!

    Yeah 90% of the time this is my method.
  • #811 by MicheleR on 16 Apr 2021

  • After all the flour is in mixed in, you only let it mix for 5 more minutes?
    Is it a problem that im mixing 10-12 minutes ?

    100% Caputo (my typical batch is ~1.3kg flour)
    62.5% Water at about 40-45F (play with this over time in a range of 60-64%)
    3.0% Salt (I would not go lower than 2.5% or more than maybe 3.1%)
    1.3% Ischia Culture (fully active) NO FRESH YEAST, IDY, or ADY!!! Trust your culture. The hydration and flour you use in your culture donít matter much at quantities this low.  Iím probably a little stiffer than 100%, but I doubt it is significant.

    1) Dissolve the salt in the water.
    2) Mix in the culture until itís pretty well dissolved. I use a hand whisk and froth it up some too.
    3) Quickly add about 2/3 of the flour and mix (I use a KitchenAid K5SS) until basically homogeneous. I use the dough hook in my hand to get all the flour wet quickly, and then I put it on the mixer.
    4) Add the remaining 1/3 of the flour evenly over the next 5 minutes or so allowing each addition to become incorporated before adding the next bit.
    5) Mix until generally smooth and homogenous. It wonít get completely smooth and silky yet. It will still have a bit of a rough look when you stop the mixer. Itís going to feel somewhat tacky and rather soft.
    6) Dump it onto a counter, give it 20 or so kneads until it is fairly stiff, cover with plastic or a bowl, and let it rest for 7-10 minutes. In the summer, I put it on a plate and let it rest (covered) in the fridge.
    7) It will have relaxed noticeably. Stretch and fold it 4 or 5 times. Watch this video if you donít know what I mean by stretch and fold: http://www.gourmet.com/magazine/video/2008/03/bertinet_sweetdough.  It will get stiff again and get some tears on the surface. Cover and let it rest again for another 7-10 minutes. Remember to try to capture air in the dough as you do your stretch and folds.
    8] Give it a few more stretch and folds. If it is now silky smooth, youíre done. If not, give it one more rest and a few more stretch-and-folds, and you should be good to go.
    9) Put it in a container and let it ferment in bulk for 24 hours at ~65F. Ideally, you will see virtually no rise after 24 hours. You should maybe start to see some tiny little bubbles forming. This is how I do my bulk ferment: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18509.msg179991.html#msg179991
    10) Ball the dough (make them tight without tearing the skin) and let ferment another 20-24 hours. I use lightly oiled individual Rubbermaid tubs. I use 250g balls for a 13Ē pizza. If you want a very large cornice, use 275g.

    Dough trays are fine too but a little touchier as the balls will come together and will need to be cut apart and lifted out with a scraper. With the lightly oiled tubs, the dough ball just rolls right out onto your flour pile. Start the ball fermentation at ~65F in the same set-up you use for your bulk. After 12 hours, youíll have to pay attention to what is going on and either keep it at 65F or let it warm as high as 78F or so to get the balls ready when you want them ready.

    After doing it a couple times, you get a handle on how changes in temperature affect activity. It can be quite variable. Sometime I need to keep the balls at 65F for almost the entire time. Sometimes the last 10 hours or so may be 78F. Ideally, at least the last couple hours will be at 78F or so. You get a little better oven rise performance when the dough is warmer (though leoparding may be better when the dough is cooler).  More times than not, I end up keeping my dough balls at 65F or so for about 18 hours and then bring them up to 78F for the final 4+ hours. If you want a temperature between 65F and 78F, open the door of the cooler but leave the ice block in there. If you really need to slow things down, stick the balls in the fridge for 15-20 minutes or so. You may have to do this several times. Donít go longer. You really donít want the dough to get too cold especially if it is close to the time you want to bake it.

    Your culture, how active it is, temperature and temperature stability will all affect things. So will hydration and salinity if you vary them. You really need to experiment some to dial things in exactly where you want them and to understand what adjustments you need to make as environmental conditions change.

    Pictures:
    1) Adding the remaining flour Ė the dough kind of tears up and incorporates air as it comes back together.
    2) The dough is ready to come out of the mixer.
    3) The dough is stiff after the 20 kneads and needs a rest.
    4) The dough is now relaxed, but you can see how it is not yet smooth. Capture air in the dough as you stretch and fold.
    5) Notice how smooth it is now after a couple rests and stretch and folds. A couple more until it is stiff and itís ready for the bulk ferment.
    6) How I like the bulk dough to look just before balling Ė the only signs of activity are tiny little bubbles.
    7) This bulk dough has too much activity. Cut back your yeast or temperature. I donít want to feel gas, and I donít want bubbles of gas coming to the surface when I form, the balls.
    8] This dough ball is about ready to bake.
    9) This is about the most rise I want to see in a dough ball.

    EDIT (7/3/15): For a current link for the Bertinet Gourmet video, see http://www.gourmet.com/magazine/video/2008/03/bertinet_sweetdough.html
  • #812 by TXCraig1 on 18 Apr 2021
  • Here's one of my 16% starters, I tend to do cannoto, but I'll be trying a more traditional with your recipe.

    What's your fermentation temp?
  • #813 by EthanPizza on 20 Apr 2021
  • What's your fermentation temp?

    I ferment at Room temp of 70 to 72. Fridge is whatever preset is on my fridge lol prolly 36?

    Check out these two pics. Cooked both tonight. Identical recipe ( 64% super nuvola, 24% caputo pizzeria, 12% caputo tipo 1 @62% HR or 65% including starter) Both at 16% starter. Followed your chart for the leopard one. So it was like 13 hours at my room temp. Other one, I bulked in fridge 72 hours after 30 minute bench rest, then another 4.5 hours room temp before cooking. Didnt get the spotting, but it was vastly superior. Softer but less chew  with crisper bite. Tomorrow I'll try 4 to 5% starter for 21 to 24 hours room temp in hopes of improving. My 3% starter at 24 hours room temp was the most sour and flat pizza ever lol. That one doesnt deserve to be posted lol.
  • #814 by EthanPizza on 21 Apr 2021
  • Tonight's pizzas came out good. 1st pic is 16% starter 4 days in fridge and 6 hours room temp

    Second pic is the same, except it is 12 room temp, 24 in fridge, 6 room temp.

    While both were great, the second pic was a little better in terms of soft and tender, but that also could be due to oven temp.
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