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  • #501 by TXCraig1 on 31 May 2020
  • I don't see anything that worries me in those pictures.
  • #502 by kashmir107 on 31 May 2020
  • When I used to use fresh yeast I used to get proper pizza dough balls that you could fit in a dough tray. I love using the ischia but the balls very quickly lose their shape and become more difficult to stretch out
  • #503 by kashmir107 on 31 May 2020
  • I should also say that the balls don't double in size, they rise only a tiny bit
  • #504 by TXCraig1 on 01 Jun 2020
  • You don't need 2X. 1.75 is enough. If they aren't rising enough add a bit more yeast. Work your way up in a series of tiny increments until you find the right amount.
  • #505 by luckydutch on 19 May 2021
  • Thanks for sharing the process in such detail. It was a very interesting read.

    I'm curious to know why you go for such a long 'cool' fermentation for your dough (about 36h in total) with a very small % of starter?

    I've recently started messing around with natural starters both for pizza and for sourdough loaves. It seems like the go-to method for loaf baking is 15-20% starter, 4-6 bulk ferment on the bench while doing the stretches for gluten forming then just 12-16 hours in a banneton in the fridge. Total ferment time being less than 24h.

    This is obviously very different to your method for pizza that you've had so much success with and I would be interested to know why the method for pizza dough is a much slower ferment? Is it for flavor or for oven rise (obviously pizza is in the oven only for a few minutes so needs to rise fast).
  • #506 by TXCraig1 on 19 May 2021
  • I think it makes the best pizza. Here are my thoughts on the science behind it: https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=41039.0
  • #507 by luckydutch on 19 May 2021
  • I think it makes the best pizza. Here are my thoughts on the science behind it: https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=41039.0

    Interesting that the evidence suggests that cold fermenting like in a fridge actually isn't advantageous when it comes to flavor. I wonder if the same applies to bread and everyone just uses the fridge because it's convenient...

    So if I were to try to replicate your pizza method with a 1-1-1 natural sourdough starter or some commercial yeast like ADY (can't get my hands on Ischia Culture), I'd want to go with a much, much smaller amount of starter/yeast and allow that long fermentation time at as close as I can get to 65F?
  • #508 by billg on 19 May 2021
  • Interesting that the evidence suggests that cold fermenting like in a fridge actually isn't advantageous when it comes to flavor. I wonder if the same applies to bread and everyone just uses the fridge because it's convenient...

    So if I were to try to replicate your pizza method with a 1-1-1 natural sourdough starter or some commercial yeast like ADY (can't get my hands on Ischia Culture), I'd want to go with a much, much smaller amount of starter/yeast and allow that long fermentation time at as close as I can get to 65F?

    You can buy the Ischia starter on Amazon or from sourdoughs.net
  • #509 by 02ebz06 on 19 May 2021
  • You can buy the Ischia starter on Amazon or from sourdoughs.net

    I think best place to get the Ischia Starter from is sourdo.com
  • #510 by TXCraig1 on 19 May 2021
  • Interesting that the evidence suggests that cold fermenting like in a fridge actually isn't advantageous when it comes to flavor. I wonder if the same applies to bread and everyone just uses the fridge because it's convenient...

    Cold fermenting is a great method* because it's logistically very simple and has a HUGE margin of error. The same is not true of room temp fermentation though I do believe you make gains in aroma, flavor, and texture.

    * For baker's yeast only. I personally don't think cold fermenting is a good choice for SD. I think it dramatically degrades quality in every attribute.
  • #511 by luckydutch on 19 May 2021
  • Cold fermenting is a great method* because it's logistically very simple and has a HUGE margin of error. The same is not true of room temp fermentation though I do believe you make gains in aroma, flavor, and texture.

    * For baker's yeast only. I personally don't think cold fermenting is a good choice for SD. I think it dramatically degrades quality in every attribute.

    Very interesting. For convenience's sake I think I could still use regular cold ferment from time to time when using baker's yeast but I will definitely have to look into a coolbox to do room temperature ferments with my sourdough then.
  • #512 by luckydutch on 20 May 2021
  • Cold fermenting is a great method* because it's logistically very simple and has a HUGE margin of error. The same is not true of room temp fermentation though I do believe you make gains in aroma, flavor, and texture.

    * For baker's yeast only. I personally don't think cold fermenting is a good choice for SD. I think it dramatically degrades quality in every attribute.

    Looking at your fermentation chart, if you were to make with a normal homemade SD starter, not the ischia starter, would the same % of starter be appropriate for the same fermentation times? Is the Ischia starter particularly active?
  • #513 by TXCraig1 on 20 May 2021
  • Looking at your fermentation chart, if you were to make with a normal homemade SD starter, not the ischia starter, would the same % of starter be appropriate for the same fermentation times? Is the Ischia starter particularly active?

    While there have been outliers, the table has proven to be reasonably predictive with a wide range of starters. Your individual workflow can also make a meaningful difference. It's really just intended to help find a starting point. Some testing and tweaking should be expected.
  • #514 by RHawthorne on 20 May 2021


  • * For baker's yeast only.
    Duly noted. Have you ever tried, or considered trying, lager yeast and doing cold fermentation? I've done it, and I can say for sure that the results for me have been at least as good as any dough I've made with baker's yeast at RT, and possibly better. Lager yeast is actually most active at low temperatures, and thus quite well suited for fermentation of pizza dough in the fridge. Just a little food for thought for your next fermentation adventure, if you feel like it.
  • #515 by TXCraig1 on 20 May 2021
  • By "baker's yeast only," what I meant was "not sourdough."
  • #516 by RHawthorne on 20 May 2021
  • By "baker's yeast only," what I meant was "not sourdough."
    Right, but what about the rest of what I was asking about?
  • #517 by EthanPizza on 20 May 2021
  • * For baker's yeast only. I personally don't think cold fermenting is a good choice for SD. I think it dramatically degrades quality in every attribute.

    Have you ever made a sourdough based poolish at RT and then made dough with it and refrigerated that? For whatever reason, ( I don't know the science, the chemistry, or the reasoning behind it) my direct dough and sourdough leavened bigas seem to be gummy with CT, but my poolish does not get at all gummy and is only enhanced by the retardation of the dough being able to develop flavors that I cannot achieve in RT before it over proofs.
  • #518 by TXCraig1 on 20 May 2021
  • Right, but what about the rest of what I was asking about?

    I have not tried it.
  • #519 by TXCraig1 on 20 May 2021
  • Have you ever made a sourdough based poolish at RT and then made dough with it and refrigerated that? For whatever reason, ( I don't know the science, the chemistry, or the reasoning behind it) my direct dough and sourdough leavened bigas seem to be gummy with CT, but my poolish does not get at all gummy and is only enhanced by the retardation of the dough being able to develop flavors that I cannot achieve in RT before it over proofs.

    I haven't tried that for pizza, but I agree it can be an effective breadmaking technique.
  • #520 by Pete-zza on 20 May 2021
  • Have you ever made a sourdough based poolish at RT and then made dough with it and refrigerated that? For whatever reason, ( I don't know the science, the chemistry, or the reasoning behind it) my direct dough and sourdough leavened bigas seem to be gummy with CT, but my poolish does not get at all gummy and is only enhanced by the retardation of the dough being able to develop flavors that I cannot achieve in RT before it over proofs.
    EthanPizza,

    You might take a look at this post, at Reply 151 at:

    https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=576.msg11774#msg11774

    The above post was in 2005 and at a time where I did not know much about preferments, including poolish, but my recollection is that I regularly fed my sourdough starter with equal amounts of flour and water by weight.

    Peter
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