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Author Topic: Tommy's Pizza (Columbus OH) - Any recipe ideas  (Read 184308 times)

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Offline tedcholl

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Re: Tommy's Pizza (Columbus OH) - Any recipe ideas
« Reply #500 on: April 04, 2021, 01:43:54 PM »
And my journey continues with 2 big breakthroughs yesterday!   I've been wanting more lamination or what I call crust bubbles and also to get both great crust flavor along with crispiness.  Got both although not together in the same pizza.  One of the crusts was the best crust I've ever made - see details below.

So I made 3 pizzas, one was the 333Meg pizza recipe and process from the second of two dough balls that I had made and had frozen.  The first dough/pizza was reviewed at
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=43654.msg665751#msg665751.   

In the first attempt I cooked in my normal oven at 500 on Convection, on a stone on the middle rack - first time I had cooked in that oven.  It gave me some crust bubbles, very good flavor, but didn't brown or crisp like I wanted.  My freestanding stove actually has two ovens, the lower one is a normal size and has convection, on top of it is a small oven, which due to it's size does not need convection.  I always cook pizza in the top, smaller oven.  The issues I had with cooking this pizza was not knowing the best rack position to use in that larger oven along with not rotating the pizza as it was cooking as the back of the pizza was much crispier than the front.
This time I cooked in the small oven, at 550F and direct on steel.  I had 8 layer laminated the dough.  I've never had so many crust bubbles form during the cooking so success #1 of the day.

The next 2 pizzas were made using a modified 333Meg recipe. 

thickness factor 0.08 - up from the first pizza 0.075 and back to my normal tf.
100% flour - a 50/50 mix of KABF and KA Hi Gluten.
43% water
1.5% IDY instead of ADY
1% salt instead of 1.5%.  My normal salt %.
3.0 % Barley Malt Syrup vs sugar
5% Crisco instead of Lard at 5.6%
This dough was created in the food processor.  Other dough management was the same as my recent attempts but I did not laminate the doughs as I rolled them out.

Pizza #1 was cooked for 9 minutes on a 550F stone.  I had also let the rolled crust of this one warm up much longer than I normally do, 1.5 hour which I believe contributed to the success of this pizza.
This was the best crust I've ever made.  It had excellent flavor, it had a light/airy crust that also had a nice crispiness.  It had an excellent chew, not at all tough, and browned up very nicely.  The only downside is I got no crust bubbles to form as it cooked, due to not laminating the dough into 8 layers.  I now want to see if I can laminate to get crust bubbles and still get all the other qualities this crust possessed. I've also learned that the pizza cooked on stone is giving me better flavor although with less crunchiness than when I cook on steel.  I did rotate the pizza 180 degrees half way through the bake which I've found is necessary in my oven when I use the stone.  I don't need to do this when I cook on steel.

Pizza #2 was cooked 9 minutes at 550F on steel.  Very good crust although not as good as #1.  Less flavor, some small crust bubbles (this one was also not laminated dough), more crunchiness, not the same lightness / airiness, crust browned more.

Hoping I can replicate my results again and also see the effect of doing the 8 layer lamination.  If so Pizza #1 with lamination will become my new standard dough recipe and process! 

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tommy's Pizza (Columbus OH) - Any recipe ideas
« Reply #501 on: April 04, 2021, 08:10:03 PM »
Ted,

You and the Graff brothers and Meg have done a great job documenting the various dough formulations that you have tried in this thread.

I don't fancy myself an expert on the style you have all played around with, but when I saw your latest dough formulation I was reminded of a thread that I started several years ago in an attempt to replicate a pizza that was introduced to the forum by a former professional pizza maker, DKM (Deven), whose recipe was set forth on the forum at https://www.pizzamaking.com/pizzainnstyle.php. By the time I was done, the cracker style became one of my favorites, and especially so since the cracker style was not available to me in pizzerias where I live in Texas (I had tried Domino's version made from a pre-frozen pizza crust and it was mediocre).

Like you, I used a food processor to make the dough. One of the toughest challenges I faced was being able to roll out dough balls to form skins, given the low hydration value of the dough. One of our members, John Fazzari (fazzari), who is a professional pizza maker in the state of Washington, came to the rescue when he simply said Warm dough is a lot easier to sheet, than cold dough. So, armed with that simple tidbit, I went on to make some really good cracker style pizzas. The thread where I started my experimental journey with the cracker style of pizza is at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=5762.msg48991#msg48991

And the post where I got my epiphany thanks to John is Reply 16 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=5762.msg49138#msg49138

I have no idea as to whether my journey with the cracker style pizza will help you all with your own efforts but if you scan the photos in the above cited thread, you may be able to tell if there is anything of value to you. I might add that I got a big kick about making the DKM dough entirely by hand, and without using heat to make rolling the dough out easier. I posted on that experiment at Reply 126 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=5762.msg53174#msg53174

As you will note, my DKM thread, albeit long in the tooth, has had 142,719 page views to date. It is a quiet thread. That is not by accident. Like you guys, my practice is to provide as much detail as I can in describing what I do so that others can decide whether to try my dough formulations. I even anticipate possible questions in advance, and answer them in my posts, and that keeps follow-up posts by members at a minimum. Like they say, the devil is in the details ;D.

I wish you all continued success with your efforts and I want you to all know that your efforts are appreciated by me an our other members.

Peter

Offline tedcholl

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Re: Tommy's Pizza (Columbus OH) - Any recipe ideas
« Reply #502 on: April 04, 2021, 09:11:26 PM »
Ted,

You and the Graff brothers and Meg have done a great job documenting the various dough formulations that you have tried in this thread.

I don't fancy myself an expert on the style you have all played around with, but when I saw your latest dough formulation I was reminded of a thread that I started several years ago in an attempt to replicate a pizza that was introduced to the forum by a former professional pizza maker, DKM (Deven), whose recipe was set forth on the forum at https://www.pizzamaking.com/pizzainnstyle.php. By the time I was done, the cracker style became one of my favorites, and especially so since the cracker style was not available to me in pizzerias where I live in Texas (I had tried Domino's version made from a pre-frozen pizza crust and it was mediocre).

Like you, I used a food processor to make the dough. One of the toughest challenges I faced was being able to roll out dough balls to form skins, given the low hydration value of the dough. One of our members, John Fazzari (fazzari), who is a professional pizza maker in the state of Washington, came to the rescue when he simply said Warm dough is a lot easier to sheet, than cold dough. So, armed with that simple tidbit, I went on to make some really good cracker style pizzas. The thread where I started my experimental journey with the cracker style of pizza is at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=5762.msg48991#msg48991

And the post where I got my epiphany thanks to John is Reply 16 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=5762.msg49138#msg49138

I have no idea as to whether my journey with the cracker style pizza will help you all with your own efforts but if you scan the photos in the above cited thread, you may be able to tell if there is anything of value to you. I might add that I got a big kick about making the DKM dough entirely by hand, and without using heat to make rolling the dough out easier. I posted on that experiment at Reply 126 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=5762.msg53174#msg53174

As you will note, my DKM thread, albeit long in the tooth, has had 142,719 page views to date. It is a quiet thread. That is not by accident. Like you guys, my practice is to provide as much detail as I can in describing what I do so that others can decide whether to try my dough formulations. I even anticipate possible questions in advance, and answer them in my posts, and that keeps follow-up posts by members at a minimum. Like they say, the devil is in the details ;D.

I wish you all continued success with your efforts and I want you to all know that your efforts are appreciated by me an our other members.

Peter

Thank you so much Pete for the kind and encouraging words and for the links - I will definitely read them.   Over the past several weeks I have read alot of posts, including many by you, in my attempt to make the ideal pizza crust as I imagine it in my mind and the insights I've gained have been invaluable.  It is truly amazing the wealth of pizza knowledge in this forum.  Sometimes it can be hard to find, sometimes one doesn't realize the information is actually available, and sometimes the information is overwhelming or beyond where one is at in their knowledge at the moment.  But when one needs and is ready for the information it is here.

This forum has brought me so much enjoyment.  After decades of ordering and eating pizza that didn't measure up I found this forum and learned I could make excellent pizza and much closer to what I had been yearning for. 
Now, nearly every Saturday I make 3 pizzas for my family and my extended family.  My wife, my children, my brother, my 80+ year old father-in-law and my brother and sister-in-law look forward, as a highlight to their week, the opportunity to eat my pizzas.  I've had friends from Brazil and Mexico come to my home and rave about my pizza.  The joy is priceless.

As I thought about how much happiness and enjoyment this forum has provided me I happily decided I needed to become a Lifetime Member and also support the development of the Dough Calculator.  The dollar amount doesn't come anywhere close to the amount of value this forum has provided me.  I hope many more will make the same decision.

Thanks again for all your amazing and tireless efforts and how you reach out to help individuals in their efforts.  And thanks so much for Pizzamaking.com!
Happy Pizza!

Offline bobgraff

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Re: Tommy's Pizza (Columbus OH) - Any recipe ideas
« Reply #503 on: April 11, 2021, 10:11:20 AM »
My family sometimes does a "Pizza Challenge" for fun and Tommy's is always in the mix.  Last nights entrants consisted of Tommy's (pic 1), Pizzaroni's (pic2), and Carlucci's (pic 3).  I believe all three use Ezzo pepperoni.  As usual we ordered way too much pizza, but the leftovers are going fast.  Everyone agreed that Tommy's was the favorite.  Tommy's crust seemed much drier than the others and had the best crust and sauce flavor.  I think Meg is correct in using lower hydration (43% vs 45%).  Last night's sampling is making me re-think my sauce formula too.  Tommy's sauce seemed to be cooked longer than my "barely cooked" version.

« Last Edit: April 11, 2021, 10:33:08 AM by Pete-zza »
Bob

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Offline tedcholl

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Re: Tommy's Pizza (Columbus OH) - Any recipe ideas
« Reply #504 on: April 11, 2021, 10:17:26 AM »
Alot can be learned by doing side by side comparison!   From my recent experience I agree that the lower hydration is better.  I've made the 43% hydration a few times now.  I'm thinking of giving 42% a try as well.  Thanks for the post Bob!

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Offline tedcholl

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Re: Tommy's Pizza (Columbus OH) - Any recipe ideas
« Reply #505 on: April 11, 2021, 10:39:37 AM »
Yesterday we changed things up at Ted's Pizza (my home).  We focused on toppings on top of my most recent post's dough recipe, modified from a 333Meg recipe and process.   I made a Bacon Cheeseburger, a Ham and Onion, and an All Veggie which had onion, mushroom, spinach, black olive, yellow peppers, banana peppers, roasted red peppers,  and sun dried tomatoes.  Pics below.

For the Bacon Cheeseburger I used a 50/50 mix of hamburger and medium sausage, a 50/50 blend of Provolone and Sharp Cheddar.  I threw a few pepperoni's on for no particular reason.  I sprinkled a purchased Hamburger Seasoning spice on top of the pizza.   The bacon was cooked in advanced and crumbled and added on top of the finished pizza.  When I put cooked bacon on my pizza and then cook it, it gets overcooked and dried out and loses it's flavor.  I really liked this pizza but the other members of the family tended to rate it the lowest of the 3, thinking it needed to have more % of Cheddar.  Next time I'll try more cheddar and maybe less sausage.  Maybe add pickle slices and thin sliced tomatoes.  Not going to put ketchup and mustard on the pizza as some suggested.

The Ham and Onion and Veggie had nearly equal votes for best.  The Ham and Onion had a sweeter taste and you could taste the sauce more.  One day in advance, I coated the onions with olive oil, then roasted them in a shallow pan at 425F for 15 minutes and then turned on the broiler for 3 minutes to partially caramelize them, giving them a sweet flavor.  I've not had success putting fresh cut veggies directly of a pizza and cooking them, they dry out and are flavorless.

The Veggie pizza was the best Veggie pizza I've ever eaten.  Very flavorful.  Only negative is that the crust on this one was slightly soggy from all the veggies.  I will parbake the crust next time I make this one.  I sautéed the mushrooms in oil in a pan in advance and for the onions and yellow peppers I did the same process as for the onions on the Ham and Onion pizza.  I sprinkled the top of this pizza with the King Arthur Pizza spice mix that I frequently use, next time I'll give it a heavier sprinkle.


Offline bobgraff

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Re: Tommy's Pizza (Columbus OH) - Any recipe ideas
« Reply #506 on: April 11, 2021, 11:40:57 AM »
That's a great looking veggie pizza!  I have had similar challenges with fresh vegetables releasing excessive moisture during the bake and have found that partially roasting the vegetables beforehand along with par-baking helps a lot.

On other note, I saw that AimlessRyan recently posted a new YouTube video about Tommy's.  He gets into the specifics of dough formulation, malt, and blistering around the 30:25 mark.

Bob

"I learn each day what I need to know to do tomorrow’s work." - Arnold Toynbee

Offline bobgraff

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Re: Tommy's Pizza (Columbus OH) - Any recipe ideas
« Reply #507 on: April 17, 2021, 11:51:17 AM »
Did my first ever side-by-side taste test with Tommy's.  After four years of making this recipe, I'm somewhat dumbfounded that I never did this until now.  Rolling out a 42% HR dough is a pain, but it is definitely closer to Tommy's than the 45-46% doughs I had been making previously.  Ted and I have been having side conversations about the proper dough thickness factor (TF), so I've included a few cross section pictures of Tommy's below for reference.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2021, 06:51:28 PM by bobgraff »
Bob

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Offline tedcholl

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Re: Tommy's Pizza (Columbus OH) - Any recipe ideas
« Reply #508 on: April 17, 2021, 09:28:10 PM »
Such a great idea to do a side by side!  What did you decide on the thickness, I'm not sure looking at the photos.  What's the correct tf for Tommy's pizza?

Offline bobgraff

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Re: Tommy's Pizza (Columbus OH) - Any recipe ideas
« Reply #509 on: April 17, 2021, 10:35:36 PM »
I'd guess somewhere in the .08 - .09 TF range.
Bob

"I learn each day what I need to know to do tomorrow’s work." - Arnold Toynbee

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Offline tedcholl

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Re: Tommy's Pizza (Columbus OH) - Any recipe ideas
« Reply #510 on: April 18, 2021, 12:07:24 PM »
I'd guess somewhere in the .08 - .09 TF range.

Hi Bob,

Another example of the power of doing side by side, although I agree that the lamination can make the comparison difficult. 

I'm thinking Tommy's is in the 0.08 to 0.085 range.  I tried a 0.09 a month back and it definitely seemed to thick to me.  This crust was not laminated so it is easier to see the thickness.  (photo 1)
One of my pizzas yesterday was from a frozen dough ball made last month at a 0.085 tf,  this one was laminated, seems closer to your photos to me.  I originally had the thought this was still a little bit too thick.  (photo 2).
Photo 3 also shows a recent 0.085 pizza, maybe a bit more easy to see the thickness.
I normally have used 0.08 and was happy with it but thought it might be a little too thin.
I'm now inclined to think 0.0825 might be the sweet spot but I still believe Tommy's is between 0.08 and 0.085.
I hope to get to Ohio in a couple of months and try Tommy's but also buy one to deconstruct and weigh the individual parts including the crust to get a better idea of how much their crust, sauce, cheese, and pepperoni weigh.   I recently did an experiment of my 14" 0.08 pepperoni pizza and it lost 7% of it's weight during cooking.   I will also deconstruct one of my pizzas to have a direct comparison of each part of the pizza.

Hope my photos help you come to a conclusion as well, let me know!
Anyway, that's my current thoughts on Tommy's tf,  great having you and Meg as co-collaborators!

Offline tedcholl

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Re: Tommy's Pizza (Columbus OH) - Any recipe ideas
« Reply #511 on: May 02, 2021, 02:54:07 PM »
This weekend, inspired by some other posts I've been reading,  I decided to try a variation on my best to date recipe and process.  Specifically, I went with a low, 36% hydration, low IDY of 0.5%, mixed in my Kitchen Aid vs food processor, and I also used a non-diastatic malt powder vs the barley malt syrup. 

100% flour - 50/50 mix of KABF and KA Hi Gluten
36% water
0.5% IDY
1% Fine Sea Salt
5% Crisco
3% Non-diastatic malt power - KA brand.
tf = 0.08

My food processor works best with batches of 2 pizzas or less and my Kitchen Aid with 3 or 4 pizzas.  As I made 3, 14" pizzas I went with the Kitchen Aid this time.  I used the same process of adding ingredients as I've been recently documenting.   
The dough was very dry (see photo 1) and when pressed together it looked like a brain (see photo 2), craggy with deep surface crevices.  I let it bulk ferment for 7 hours at room temp.  It got softer and rose some but maintained the same look.  I then divided into 3 balls and stored in dough containers in the fridge for 2 days when I took them out, let them warm up, and the rolled/ manual sheeter them.  Each ball was divided into 2 balls and each rolled out to 14" round crust and then the one was placed on top of the other, the edges were crimped together (a process I read about in a Pete-zza post), rolled together a little, and then covered and returned to the fridge for 1 more day when they were removed, warmed up for 1.5 hours and then made into pizzas.  They weren't as difficult to roll out as I expected, being room temp helps alot.  I did not dock the dough. 

I cooked at 550F on a stone for 9 minutes.  I got a good number of crust bubbles as they were cooking. The cooked crusts were nice and dry 9similar in appearance to crusts that are parbaked even though these were not), very crunchy, with good lamination, and a nicely browned crust (photo 3).  Crust had excellent flavor and chew.  Very tasty and many positive comments.  This may become my new best ever although the increased crunch seemed to come with a slight decrease in chew and flavor vs my other best ever (43% hydration and 1.5% IDY is the major difference).  I think I will try both recipes next and do a side by side comparison.  I would like to make this recipe in the food processor as well.
The non-diastatic malt powder worked out well and gave me similar results to the malt syrup I've been using.


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