A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Author Topic: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island  (Read 22958 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

HarryHaller73

  • Guest
Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
« Reply #180 on: January 07, 2017, 12:24:32 PM »
Regardless of whether it's sheeted or hands, I'm certain they are two doughs flattened onto each other for their round pies.

HarryHaller73

  • Guest
Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
« Reply #181 on: January 07, 2017, 12:49:22 PM »
double dough
« Last Edit: January 07, 2017, 12:51:10 PM by HarryHaller73 »

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 30736
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
« Reply #182 on: January 07, 2017, 01:54:59 PM »
Regardless of whether it's sheeted or hands, I'm certain they are two doughs flattened onto each other for their round pies.

Harry,

How can you be sure there are two dough flattened onto each other for their rounds pies?  Couldn't they just be flattening two dough balls when they are really busy, or when they want to get ahead for busier times?

I wonder if anyone has every been to PIER 76 http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2010/03/staten-island-pier-76-pizza-like-joe-and-pats-st-george-siny-nyc-review.html

It seems like their pies would be pretty similar to Joe and Pat's. 

Another article that has some in about Joe and Pat's.

http://iwantmorefood.com/2009/08/29/staten-island-pizza-tour-wrap-up/

And a photo that was taken when I was there and another one from the web with what looks like opening one dough ball at a time.

Norma

Offline rparker

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2425
Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
« Reply #183 on: January 07, 2017, 02:35:53 PM »
I was wondering about the double stacked thing and if it was a time saving process, like to do two at once kind of thing. I had a hard time imagining two heavily floured pieces of dough sticking together. I know nothing at all about any form of laminated dough. Not much less than I know about regular dough, come to think of it.  ;D

Those discs in the back all piled up took uniformed enough to be machine made. Could be skilled repetitive action or could be dough for calzones or something.

Anyone know how old the dough is? I didn't remember seeing that talked about.

More videos to study. Thanks Norma!   8)

HarryHaller73

  • Guest
Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
« Reply #184 on: January 07, 2017, 03:15:20 PM »
Harry,

How can you be sure there are two dough flattened onto each other for their rounds pies?  Couldn't they just be flattening two dough balls when they are really busy, or when they want to get ahead for busier times?

I wonder if anyone has every been to PIER 76 http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2010/03/staten-island-pier-76-pizza-like-joe-and-pats-st-george-siny-nyc-review.html

It seems like their pies would be pretty similar to Joe and Pat's. 

Another article that has some in about Joe and Pat's.

http://iwantmorefood.com/2009/08/29/staten-island-pizza-tour-wrap-up/

And a photo that was taken when I was there and another one from the web with what looks like opening one dough ball at a time.

Norma

You may be right, but what I see is the doughballs aren't made straight into their 16" pizzas.  They're preflattened, then piled up, whether by hands or sheeter.  Then they are taken and pounded and pressed further in a second step, in my opinion the individual dough skins are too small to make a 16" pizza.  i believe they use 2 of the stacked skins and some of the photos I posted demonstrate that.  You may not see it because they are picking up 2 at a time. 

I doubt they are flattening 2 to save time and peel them off each other afterwards.  Pounding and pressing two doughs together to 16" playing whack a mole like they do won't be easily separated, imo.   They may be doing two smaller pre flattened doughs to get a more even pie thickness.

That said, the pizza there isn't complicated.. whether the dough is doubled or not, one can make a similar Joe and Pat's pizza at home baked on a steel, dough flattened out well all the way to the rim, at a lower TF like 0.07-0.075. It's really about the thinner crust texture, not overbaked so as to still have fold, chew and moisture in the crumb which requires precise bake timing, like a minute too long can make them too crunchy.  imo, this style is easier to make at home than a normal NY slice pie.   Different ratio of cheese, making it more a tomato pie.. using standard Cali tomatoes with good amounts of dry powdered Locatelli, and Grande cubes melting into moons. 


« Last Edit: January 07, 2017, 03:28:49 PM by HarryHaller73 »

A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 30736
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
« Reply #185 on: January 07, 2017, 09:23:46 PM »
I was wondering about the double stacked thing and if it was a time saving process, like to do two at once kind of thing. I had a hard time imagining two heavily floured pieces of dough sticking together. I know nothing at all about any form of laminated dough. Not much less than I know about regular dough, come to think of it.  ;D

Those discs in the back all piled up took uniformed enough to be machine made. Could be skilled repetitive action or could be dough for calzones or something.

Anyone know how old the dough is? I didn't remember seeing that talked about.

More videos to study. Thanks Norma!   8)

Roy,

This is another video of two people giving their opinions of Joe and Pat's and Denino's.  The taste tests of both pizzas start at about 6.59 minutes into the video.



Another video that I posted on the Boardwalk thread has a pizza maker at Manco & Manco opening up two dough balls at once.  It has to be watched closely to see him peel both skins apart.  There is not nearly as much bench flour used at Manco & Manco as at Joe and Pat's.

 

I talked to a person that worked at one of either Joe and Pat's or Rubirosa and he said no sheeter is used and everything with the dough is done by hand.

I don't know how old the dough is but wouldn't think it would be fermented very much.

Norma

Offline rparker

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2425
Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
« Reply #186 on: January 07, 2017, 11:35:26 PM »
I've seen that couple doing the taste test before. Gotta respect that one bite thing the dude does.  :o     :-D   That's a serious 3-part wolfing down a bite, bite.

I've been watching too many video review of Staten Island pizza joints over the past few months. There was one that I was using as an influence for a moderately thin, but not too thin crust. It was crunchy and mostly stiff. Probably in the .075TF range.  I cannot remember the name of the place. It went way beyond the standard crunchy bottom. I've made a few like it, but it's not my normal thing. Does that ring a bell for anyone? I thought it was the Rubirosa, but I can't find videos showing someone eating a pie without blocking out the crunch layer sound.

Am I using the wrong term for this crunch layer? I hear it many times on various NY style "reviews" and sometime hear "Crispy" and "crunchy", seemingly used interchangeably.

Offline johnnytuinals

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 518
Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
« Reply #187 on: January 07, 2017, 11:42:23 PM »
My understanding is there is a 3 step process.  In the back somewhere there is a dough sheeter, preflattening dough and stacked.  They are brought to the front prep area, and two doughs get pressed onto each other. They are pounded and pressed, slapped on the counter.  The last step is a guy will do a last bit of stretch by toss or whatever to get to proper size and then top and bake.  I would think pressing 2 doughs together like that affects how the crust is or else why do it.  It could have a strengthening effect on the crust.


You really have no clue
Joe and pats never had a dough sheeter in the back and never brought pre pressed dough to the front.
As joe and pats gets busy making hundreds of pizzas each nite and they can make 2 at once as yea see in the picture...I have seen that many of times at 7pm when they are busy.
What joe and pats makes in a hour most other places that makes pizza don't make in a week.............JT

HarryHaller73

  • Guest
Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
« Reply #188 on: January 07, 2017, 11:57:37 PM »

You really have no clue
Joe and pats never had a dough sheeter in the back and never brought pre pressed dough to the front.
As joe and pats gets busy making hundreds of pizzas each nite and they can make 2 at once as yea see in the picture...I have seen that many of times at 7pm when they are busy.
What joe and pats makes in a hour most other places that makes pizza don't make in a week.............JT

The sheeter was a theory and it doesn't matter if it's sheeted or if it's done by hand, it's an extra thin tomato pie baked in a fish oven.  and no, they don't put meat in their pizza sauce, nor is it some secret bull%$# recipe they sell in cups.  The stuff you buy is their marinara sauce.  I've lived NY pizza for 40 years to know the kind of bull%$# pizzerias talk up and lies they tell, I don't blame them tho.. I wouldn't doubt there's a sheeter back there, and have a wall of labor when the cameras go rolling with 15 metal cans of dough.  Whenever I go, there's 50 skins already pressed and stacked and only 2 guys making pies.  And they don't toss dough in the air, unless some tourist walks in.  I bet they got some process for that too.  the big proofed dough is for their grandma pies.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2017, 12:24:46 AM by HarryHaller73 »

HarryHaller73

  • Guest
Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
« Reply #189 on: January 08, 2017, 12:02:13 AM »

You really have no clue
Joe and pats never had a dough sheeter in the back and never brought pre pressed dough to the front.
As joe and pats gets busy making hundreds of pizzas each nite and they can make 2 at once as yea see in the picture...I have seen that many of times at 7pm when they are busy.
What joe and pats makes in a hour most other places that makes pizza don't make in a week.............JT

I have never seen anyone peel apart dough there off two skins pressed.  They just press and press and hit it on the counter like wifebeaters. 
« Last Edit: January 08, 2017, 12:25:07 AM by HarryHaller73 »

A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Offline hotsawce

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 2364
Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
« Reply #190 on: January 08, 2017, 02:24:06 AM »
I actually didn't bake that Rubirosa dough ball. I tried to get the personal size to determine the thickness factor but they gave me the large! Wouldn't fit on my stone.

That being said, I've watched them make at Rubi and Joe and Pats tons of times. No sheeter. No rolling pin at Rubi, but I think it's at Joe and pats. Just press and stretch evenly and thin. You can do it without a roller...I've done it at one of my places of employment that specializes in thin and flat pizza. I don't think the roller is going to make much of a difference in the final product.

Once pre stretched, they stack with some flour layered between them so the skins don't stick to one another. I've done this at Paulie Gee's and other places...it's a time saving thing. No double stretching... all about having it ready to top when the ticket comes in. They are probably no more than 60% hydration.

Biggest thing for this style is the even oven temp. No high bottom heat = more even, flat bake and no large bubbles like Marta or Lucali. So even though the dough is pretty well proofed there's not enough heat to bring it to life (hence the lighter bottom color than even a deck oven NY pie.)

My basic Joe and Pats Recipe:

Flour, water, salt, yeast at 60% hydration. Go thinner than 0.070 TF. Stretch evenly, put a little cornmeal/semolina on your peel, crushed plum tomatoes and cubed low moisture moss (1" x 1" probably) with a little pecorino. bake at 500 on a steel in the middle of the oven for 8ish minutes. This will give you the even heat for a relatively flat pie, the thickness factor for the texture of the pie. Guarantee you'll get really close.

Offline hotsawce

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 2364
Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
« Reply #191 on: January 08, 2017, 02:29:54 AM »
You guys hit the nail on the head. Extra thin in a lower heat, evenly balanced oven = even predictable bake. So it doesn't matter if its rolled out with a sheeter or stretched by hand. It's so thin and baked so evenly it's not going to matter...it'll be flat either way.

What you say is the same for almost ANY pizzeria in NYC. I've worked at many that do it...labor turnover is so high and it's typically not some artisan thing where chefs are nurturing dough. It's some guy who was trained by the guy before him to make the pizza quick and efficiently and within a certain window of acceptance so his boss gets off his ass. We've all come up with shortcuts on the line....8pm hits and 20, 3 to 5 pizza tickets hit us all at once. You can bet we aren't stretching every pizza straight from a ball. It's common sense...the myth of legendary pizza is so overplayed at this point. They are all pretty similar it's just the slight technique difference and those other small factors that makes the pies different.

The sheeter was a theory and it doesn't matter if it's sheeted or if it's done by hand, it's an extra thin tomato pie baked in a fish oven.  and no, they don't put meat in their pizza sauce, nor is it some secret bull%$# recipe they sell in cups.  The stuff you buy is their marinara sauce.  I've lived NY pizza for 40 years to know the kind of bull%$# pizzerias talk up and lies they tell, I don't blame them tho.. I wouldn't doubt there's a sheeter back there, and have a wall of labor when the cameras go rolling with 15 metal cans of dough.  Whenever I go, there's 50 skins already pressed and stacked and only 2 guys making pies.  And they don't toss dough in the air, unless some tourist walks in.  I bet they got some process for that too.  the big proofed dough is for their grandma pies.

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 30736
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
« Reply #192 on: January 08, 2017, 08:58:20 AM »

I've been watching too many video review of Staten Island pizza joints over the past few months. There was one that I was using as an influence for a moderately thin, but not too thin crust. It was crunchy and mostly stiff. Probably in the .075TF range.  I cannot remember the name of the place. It went way beyond the standard crunchy bottom. I've made a few like it, but it's not my normal thing. Does that ring a bell for anyone? I thought it was the Rubirosa, but I can't find videos showing someone eating a pie without blocking out the crunch layer sound.

Am I using the wrong term for this crunch layer? I hear it many times on various NY style "reviews" and sometime hear "Crispy" and "crunchy", seemingly used interchangeably.

Roy,

There are pretty many good pizzerias in Staten Island.  I am not sure which video you might have been watching.  Maybe it was Denino's.  I am not sure what you mean about the crunch layer either.  In my opinon Joe and Pat's has the right about of a crispy bottom crust, but then all of us might not agree.

Norma

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 30736
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
« Reply #193 on: January 08, 2017, 09:02:52 AM »
I actually didn't bake that Rubirosa dough ball. I tried to get the personal size to determine the thickness factor but they gave me the large! Wouldn't fit on my stone.

That being said, I've watched them make at Rubi and Joe and Pats tons of times. No sheeter. No rolling pin at Rubi, but I think it's at Joe and pats. Just press and stretch evenly and thin. You can do it without a roller...I've done it at one of my places of employment that specializes in thin and flat pizza. I don't think the roller is going to make much of a difference in the final product.

Once pre stretched, they stack with some flour layered between them so the skins don't stick to one another. I've done this at Paulie Gee's and other places...it's a time saving thing. No double stretching... all about having it ready to top when the ticket comes in. They are probably no more than 60% hydration.

Biggest thing for this style is the even oven temp. No high bottom heat = more even, flat bake and no large bubbles like Marta or Lucali. So even though the dough is pretty well proofed there's not enough heat to bring it to life (hence the lighter bottom color than even a deck oven NY pie.)

My basic Joe and Pats Recipe:

Flour, water, salt, yeast at 60% hydration. Go thinner than 0.070 TF. Stretch evenly, put a little cornmeal/semolina on your peel, crushed plum tomatoes and cubed low moisture moss (1" x 1" probably) with a little pecorino. bake at 500 on a steel in the middle of the oven for 8ish minutes. This will give you the even heat for a relatively flat pie, the thickness factor for the texture of the pie. Guarantee you'll get really close.

hotsawce.

Thanks for your tips!  No oil in the dough?  I guess I won't be able to make a Joe and Pat's pizza.  I don't have a baking steel and probably won't purchase one.

Norma

Offline rparker

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2425
Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
« Reply #194 on: January 08, 2017, 09:49:28 AM »
That couple's taste test surprised me. I listened closely as the dude took his second "bite" while she was yapping along. The outer half of the slice still had a crunchy sound to the bite. One chomp was the outer rim, but not all were. Being to-go slices, I would have thought a softer sounding bite out there. That's one thing I look for in my own, but I never pack them up in a box for 20 minutes and is not much of a challenge like it used to be. 

Most of the videos I see on Joe and Pats do not sound like massive amounts of crispiness, but it is there to some extent. I can only get so much when I go that thin. That's probably a good thing if I am trying to bake an homage to Joe and Pats. I am not afraid of missing on the crispier side, though.   :D

Roy,

There are pretty many good pizzerias in Staten Island.  I am not sure which video you might have been watching.  Maybe it was Denino's.  I am not sure what you mean about the crunch layer either.  In my opinon Joe and Pat's has the right about of a crispy bottom crust, but then all of us might not agree.

Norma
Norma, the crunch layer I yap on about is just that very bottom of the crust that hits the stone where it is crunchy (or crispy)  when bitten. I've always thought of "crisp" as a thinner form of a "crunch". Like the difference between a steel bake or a brick bake when I tried steel last year.

On a side, I understand why some say that this pie can only be done with steel. At a minimum, it very well could be a more natural bake for steel. I might break out my steel sometime soon and try one.

Roy

 

 

A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Offline johnnytuinals

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 518
Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
« Reply #195 on: January 08, 2017, 11:53:34 AM »
too me there are maybe 10 places that have great pizza on staten island and the
rest are nothing to write home abouts.
Joe and Pats
Nunzios
Joe and Pats Cousins place on Huguenot ave across from train station
Pal Joeys used to be good but have no clue if they are still in business
Als Pizza used to be good when they first opened in the early 70s
Maybe there are a few other places to want to eat at but most just blow and I rather make my own with Grande cheese and would be as good if not better then the others with my BlackStone Grill.(Blackstone is down for the winter and will reopen in the spring}........JT
« Last Edit: January 08, 2017, 11:55:24 AM by johnnytuinals »

HarryHaller73

  • Guest
Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
« Reply #196 on: January 08, 2017, 12:37:31 PM »
You guys hit the nail on the head. Extra thin in a lower heat, evenly balanced oven = even predictable bake. So it doesn't matter if its rolled out with a sheeter or stretched by hand. It's so thin and baked so evenly it's not going to matter...it'll be flat either way.


I agree, the bake temp is likely at the lower end of NY pizzamaking and on steel.  Also, those Fish ovens revolve creating a kind of convection environment, where the hot air moves which also affects how it bakes and lowers bake time. 

Do you know what flour they use?
« Last Edit: January 08, 2017, 12:55:57 PM by HarryHaller73 »

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 30736
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
« Reply #197 on: January 08, 2017, 09:29:06 PM »

Most of the videos I see on Joe and Pats do not sound like massive amounts of crispiness, but it is there to some extent. I can only get so much when I go that thin. That's probably a good thing if I am trying to bake an homage to Joe and Pats. I am not afraid of missing on the crispier side, though.   :D
Norma, the crunch layer I yap on about is just that very bottom of the crust that hits the stone where it is crunchy (or crispy)  when bitten. I've always thought of "crisp" as a thinner form of a "crunch". Like the difference between a steel bake or a brick bake when I tried steel last year.

On a side, I understand why some say that this pie can only be done with steel. At a minimum, it very well could be a more natural bake for steel. I might break out my steel sometime soon and try one.

Roy

Roy,

Thanks for telling us that the crunch layer you talk about is just that very bottom of the crust that hits the stone where it is crunchy or crispy when bitten.  Lol, I don't know what I think about the crisp or crunch terms, but you should know since you have done a brick bake and a steel bake last year.

I might give a Joe and Pat's pizza another attempt or two, but found I couldn't even get a De Lorenzo's bake right in the oven at market.

Good luck if you try another steel bake.  :)

Norma

Offline rparker

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2425
Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
« Reply #198 on: January 08, 2017, 11:37:04 PM »
Roy,

Thanks for telling us that the crunch layer you talk about is just that very bottom of the crust that hits the stone where it is crunchy or crispy when bitten.  Lol, I don't know what I think about the crisp or crunch terms, but you should know since you have done a brick bake and a steel bake last year.

I might give a Joe and Pat's pizza another attempt or two, but found I couldn't even get a De Lorenzo's bake right in the oven at market.

Good luck if you try another steel bake.  :)

Norma
Norma, the closest I ever got to a de Los was based on pictures and done in my home oven with extremely strong dough, and an uneven home oven with the lower heating element about 1-1/2 inches below the bricks and minimal top heat. That slot here I put the bricks is not even a rack space, but it will fit there.  >:D

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 30736
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
« Reply #199 on: January 09, 2017, 07:38:10 AM »
Norma, the closest I ever got to a de Los was based on pictures and done in my home oven with extremely strong dough, and an uneven home oven with the lower heating element about 1-1/2 inches below the bricks and minimal top heat. That slot here I put the bricks is not even a rack space, but it will fit there.  >:D

Roy,

I am glad at least you could come close based on the photos.  Thanks for telling us what you did. 

Seems like hotsawce (Lou) and Harry are right that this kind of pizza would benefit from a baking steel and a lower temperature.  You might also have good results since you have tired many ways to bake.

Norma

A D V E R T I S E M E N T


 

wordpress