A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Author Topic: Did i over work my dough?  (Read 777 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline 2ndtimearound

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 45
  • Location: Mass
  • I Love Pizza!
Did i over work my dough?
« on: November 11, 2019, 09:54:35 AM »
I made two exact dough batches. one right after the other.  Both cooked at ~850 in WFO.

Caputo pizzeria
62% hydro
2.8 salt
1.8% starter

24 bulk/24 ball at 63 degrees.

First batch in  I-8 spiral mixer, Water, salt, starter, 1/2 the flour mixer for 2 min on low, rest of flower incorporated over the next 2 mins on low.  10 min knead on med speed. I left it rest 5 mins and did a few stretch and folds. temp was 76 degrees when it came out of the mixer
This dough was more elastic than the next batch and had a very thin layer of crispy crust and a less tender crumb. although it was good it was just different from what i'm used to.


Second batch in my santos fork mixer which is how I've been making my dough for years.  Water, salt, starter, and all the flour. mixed/kneaded for 4-5 mins total. I didn't temp this dough out of the mixer or do any stretch and folds. it went right into the bulk container.

24 bulk/24 ball at 63 degrees

This dough felt less sticky and was much easier to open.
the crust was soft and tender.

I'm having second thoughts about the spiral mixer.

Mark

Offline The Dough Doctor

  • Tom Lehmann
  • In Memoriam
  • Posts: 6897
  • Location: Manhattan, KS
  • In Memoriam 12/2020
    • Dough Doctor
Re: Did i over work my dough?
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2019, 10:45:35 AM »
Mark;
An understanding of mixer types will tell you what went wrong.
Spiral dough mixers are designed to develop the gluten while mixing the dough, fork type mixers, on the other hand, are designed to incorporate the dough ingredients while imparting minimal gluten development, they were actually designed to replicate hand mixing of the dough in pastry dough applications.
I would suggest that you look at pulling a dough as soon as it begins to come together in the spiral mixer, record that time, and then make a couple more doughs with incrementally longer mixing times, this should give you something closer to what you are looking for.
By the way, with your dough formulation the mixing time you used in the spiral mixer should have given a pretty well developed dough structure, nothing like I would have expected from a fork type mixer using a much shorter mixing time and different mixing action.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline 2ndtimearound

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 45
  • Location: Mass
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Did i over work my dough?
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2019, 11:01:35 AM »
Tom,

The pies baked out of the spiral where more bread like. While very good, just not what I was looking for in a Neo style pie. I'll follow your recommendation and see how it goes.

Thank you
Mark

Offline The Dough Doctor

  • Tom Lehmann
  • In Memoriam
  • Posts: 6897
  • Location: Manhattan, KS
  • In Memoriam 12/2020
    • Dough Doctor
Re: Did i over work my dough?
« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2019, 11:18:07 AM »
That my friend is a tell tale indication of an over mixed pizza dough! The more you mix the dough the more bread like the finished crust becomes, if you want a more open, porous crumb structure you must mix the dough just until it comes together and forms a smooth skin on the surface (the smooth skin eliminates much of the stickiness associated with an under mixed dough) but if you don't mind contending with a sticky dough you can remove the dough from the mixer as soon as it comes together and begins to ball up. Many home pizza makers don't mind dealing with a sticky dough, I do it all the time (at home), but in a commercial setting it's usually out of the question as it can take too long to process and then you will have the enterprising employee(s) who will discover the benefits of copious amounts of dusting flour or oil in making the sticky dough handle better  :(
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline scott r

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4682
  • Age: 50
  • Location: Boston
  • I Love Pizzafreaks!
Re: Did i over work my dough?
« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2019, 03:32:57 PM »
Mark, I was worried that you might regret selling the Santos when I saw the for sale post!   Just like tom is saying, in my experience the two mixers are good at different things.   I owned a Santos once and now have a countertop spiral mixer.   The home spirals are better for wetter doughs that require more mixing in the 70-80 percent hydration range.  I use them for lower temperature baked products where I like a really wet dough such as roman Teglia style pizzas, Detroit pizzas, and NY style or pan pizzas. 

One thing that you might want to try is upping your hydration by a few points on the doughs you make in the spiral mixer.   A really well mixed dough out of a spiral can sometimes feel like its at the same hydration as a less mixed dough at a lower hydration, so you might not even have trouble handling and shaping the wetter dough.  Another thing that could help you (along with a shorter mix time) is a later addition of salt to your dough when you use the spiral. You may also find that with the spiral you prefer a flour with lower protein content than what you needed for your Santos.

Something to be aware of is that you shouldn't try to emulate the mix times you see from people that are using a full size commercial mixer.   The reason for this is that in our small countertop versions the dough is in contact with the hook much more frequently due to the much smaller bowl. When I use my countertop spiral I often mix for a very long time with really wet doughs, but with dryer (more typical Neapolitan hydrations) I often stop mixing as soon as I can because the dough is so well developed.  I also prefer to do an autolyse when I am using a spiral at medium to lower hydrations, not to more fully develop the dough, but to give the flour more time to be absorbed before it is mixed because mix times with a countertop spiral and a hydration close to 60 can be really short (just a few minutes). 

good luck!
« Last Edit: November 11, 2019, 04:04:07 PM by scott r »

A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Offline 2ndtimearound

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 45
  • Location: Mass
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Did i over work my dough?
« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2019, 06:35:46 PM »
Mark, I was worried that you might regret selling the Santos when I saw the for sale post!   Just like tom is saying, in my experience the two mixers are good at different things.   I owned a Santos once and now have a countertop spiral mixer.   The home spirals are better for wetter doughs that require more mixing in the 70-80 percent hydration range.  I use them for lower temperature baked products where I like a really wet dough such as roman Teglia style pizzas, Detroit pizzas, and NY style or pan pizzas. 

One thing that you might want to try is upping your hydration by a few points on the doughs you make in the spiral mixer.   A really well mixed dough out of a spiral can sometimes feel like its at the same hydration as a less mixed dough at a lower hydration, so you might not even have trouble handling and shaping the wetter dough.  Another thing that could help you (along with a shorter mix time) is a later addition of salt to your dough when you use the spiral. You may also find that with the spiral you prefer a flour with lower protein content than what you needed for your Santos.

Something to be aware of is that you shouldn't try to emulate the mix times you see from people that are using a full size commercial mixer.   The reason for this is that in our small countertop versions the dough is in contact with the hook much more frequently due to the much smaller bowl. When I use my countertop spiral I often mix for a very long time with really wet doughs, but with dryer (more typical Neapolitan hydrations) I often stop mixing as soon as I can because the dough is so well developed.  I also prefer to do an autolyse when I am using a spiral at medium to lower hydrations, not to more fully develop the dough, but to give the flour more time to be absorbed before it is mixed because mix times with a countertop spiral and a hydration close to 60 can be really short (just a few minutes). 

good luck!

Scott lots of good info.  Luckily I still have the Santos and plan on keeping it now for my NP. I'll try to adjust my workflow to see if I can get the spiral dough dialed in.

Where in Ma are you?

Thanks again


Offline scott r

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4682
  • Age: 50
  • Location: Boston
  • I Love Pizzafreaks!
Re: Did i over work my dough?
« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2019, 06:43:48 PM »
I live in Raynham but my restaurant is in Brookline and my food truck bounces around Cambridge/Boston etc.   At my restaurant we use a lower temp than Neapolitan and a wetter dough that is well mixed... its sort of a hybrid between neapolitan and new haven style pizza cooked closer to 3 minutes (most of the time), and mixed with a French fork mixer that has higher rpm's than the Italian ones.  They are cool mixers...sort of a hybrid between a fork and a spiral in some ways.   I guess everything I do is a hybrid lol!
« Last Edit: November 11, 2019, 06:49:29 PM by scott r »

A D V E R T I S E M E N T