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Author Topic: Help with gum like dough  (Read 435 times)

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Offline mrs1986

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Help with gum like dough
« on: April 26, 2021, 08:31:37 AM »
Hi all!

I've been making pizzas for quite some time, but recently got into a "more cientific" method to make them, this is, using longer fermentation times, and weighting everything that goes inside the dough, before I would always go by "eye" and make some good pizzas I must say, but no neapolitan good.

Anyway, last week I made a batch of pizzas, using a super simple recipe, and ended up with amazing results, really good and tasty results. This week, I bought a wood pellet oven and I was so exited, so I replicate the same recipe and I got a completely different result.

This is the recipe, and then will tell you what was it like:
-600cc water (weighted)
-1kg flour (didn't weight it)
-35grs salt (weighted)
-half teaspoon of IDY (can't weight it, my scale does not register anything)

First, the dough didn't seem like it was sticky, I mean, I could knead it perfectly fine like a 60% dough seems to be, it kinda got sticky at some point but nothing to be worried about I guess.
After kneading, at least 20 minutes, I let it sit on the bench for a couple of hours, after I came back to make the balls, I found out that the dough went super flat, like pancacke flat and got stickied to the bowl that was covering it, ok this didn't seem too wrong so I continue with the task. When I started to make the dough balls is where I start to see that something is not right with the dough, but still proceeded. The best way I can describe the dough is it was like candy, it got all stretched and could stretch like forever and the dough wouldn't rip, so, imagine a candy while being mixed on those hooks, exactly like that.

Ok, let it rest for 24hs at room temperature (something like 17-19C) and made the pizzas the nigth after that. When fermenting, the balls went full pancacke, like super super flat, airy on the bottom but something wasn't right. At the moment of making the pizzas it was almost a impossible task, only taking the dough out of the tray would make it stretch and big like my peel, managed to make the pizzas, but not happy with the results, some ripped and got holes, and couln't event hold them in my hand to add some flour I mean, completely disaster.

Anyway, can't figure out what i did wrong, the flour was a molini pizzuti pizza flour W250 rating and type "0", the other batch that went amazing was made with flour type "000" and went pretty well, I will add some pics attached.

Hope to get any help, I want to make another batch (with 5 stagioni flour) but I don't want it to be like this as the italian flour here is quite expensive haha.

Edit: first pic is the batch that was pretty good, I was super super happy with the results, just I didn't have the wood oven yet.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2021, 08:39:03 AM by mrs1986 »

Offline loch

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Re: Help with gum like dough
« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2021, 11:31:59 AM »
Sounds like at 20 minutes the dough was over worked. The gluten is breaking down and unable to retain the water which is what makes the dough feel sticky. I've seen it happen with old flour too, but I think over mixing might be the issue here.

Dave
"As long as when she takes me out she buys me pizza and beer!"

Offline mrs1986

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Re: Help with gum like dough
« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2021, 11:40:14 AM »
Sounds like at 20 minutes the dough was over worked. The gluten is breaking down and unable to retain the water which is what makes the dough feel sticky. I've seen it happen with old flour too, but I think over mixing might be the issue here.

Dave
Hi Dave, thanks for your answer, now that you mention old flour, could that be a factor? Maybe my "imported" italian flour has been stored for ages or something, I still have one bag, so I will check on that too, never tought of that!

Thanks!

Edit: It's supposed to be valid until september this year so it should be good, may be it was like humid...

I thought it was impossible to over work a dough by hand, maybe didn't tell that part.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2021, 11:46:44 AM by mrs1986 »

Offline loch

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Re: Help with gum like dough
« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2021, 12:05:34 PM »
Well, mixing and flour age are what came to mind first. Sounds like I may be wrong.

I look forward to someone who's used your particular flour types to posting and perhaps having a better answer.

Dave
"As long as when she takes me out she buys me pizza and beer!"

Offline mrs1986

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Re: Help with gum like dough
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2021, 12:18:27 PM »
Well, mixing and flour age are what came to mind first. Sounds like I may be wrong.

I look forward to someone who's used your particular flour types to posting and perhaps having a better answer.

Dave
The over working the dough could be one of the reasons, maybe 20 minutes on the bench and the mixing on the bowl could get to that? Don't know, but it was strange...

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Offline luckydutch

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Re: Help with gum like dough
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2021, 02:51:51 PM »
I thought it was almost impossible to over-knead by hand. Could it be over-fermentation? Since you couldn't measure your IDY properly, they may have risen then fallen.

Did you observe them at all during their fermentation time?

Offline mrs1986

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Re: Help with gum like dough
« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2021, 03:13:05 PM »
I thought it was almost impossible to over-knead by hand. Could it be over-fermentation? Since you couldn't measure your IDY properly, they may have risen then fallen.

Did you observe them at all during their fermentation time?
Yes I did, and the first observation was right after the resting period after kneading.
The yeast could be, but it's still strange... Now I'm kind of nervous of next batch, and worried the result would be the same :/

Offline mrs1986

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Re: Help with gum like dough
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2021, 01:48:45 PM »
Well, I made another batch of doughs, two actually, and I think I'm kind of making things bad...

In the batch 1kg of flour, I used 1/4 teaspoon of IDY (I think, not specified, sorry third world..), that would be close to 1.2 grs or something along the lines, this is for a 24hs fermentation at room temperature of around 17-19C.

What do you guys think? It is too little? Couldn't find info (or actually can't figure out how to search, english is not my language) on the amount of yeast based on the time of fermentation and the temperature of the fermentation.

Do you think is too little yeast? Too much? I'm having more or less the same problema as before, 58% hydration and the dough went kinda flat while resting, not that much as the pics I posted before, but flat none the less.

EDIT: I was kinda worried about too much kneading or too much bad kneading so I made it kinda low knead, and then I made a couple of rest and folds to get it smooth

EDIT 2: The aspect of the dough, those freckles were there almost after the end of the balling
« Last Edit: April 30, 2021, 03:40:26 PM by mrs1986 »

Offline texmex

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Re: Help with gum like dough
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2021, 02:32:14 PM »
That is about 64 degrees Fahrenheit for 24 hours but I don't know what % yeast to formula you used. .. I think you need more time at that temperature.


There is a fermentation predictability scale on this site...  https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26831.msg393271#msg393271



Reesa

Offline calzonemaker

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Re: Help with gum like dough
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2021, 03:17:20 PM »
Maybe your flour contain high level of amylase and damaged starch... try fermenting in the fridge

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Offline mrs1986

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Re: Help with gum like dough
« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2021, 03:42:40 PM »
Ok,

Flour is 5 stagioni pizza napoleatana flour.
Yeast is 0.174% ?? I think, that's 1/4 tea spoon.

Offline texmex

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Re: Help with gum like dough
« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2021, 03:55:43 PM »
Ok,

Flour is 5 stagioni pizza napoleatana flour.
Yeast is 0.174% ?? I think, that's 1/4 tea spoon.


Cannot see where you mention the baking temperature..
how hot does your pellet oven get. 
IDY and ADY are similar but idy is faster acting, so it matters when trying to predict fermentation times and temps. 
I have no experience with Neapolitan flour doughs, but others will be able to help if all details are given. 
Reesa

Offline mrs1986

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Re: Help with gum like dough
« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2021, 04:23:45 PM »

Cannot see where you mention the baking temperature..
how hot does your pellet oven get. 
IDY and ADY are similar but idy is faster acting, so it matters when trying to predict fermentation times and temps. 
I have no experience with Neapolitan flour doughs, but others will be able to help if all details are given.
My oven gets to 450C or 500C, I just don't know how to use it properly haha.
About the yeast, in the package it says it goes directly to the flour, so I guess is IDY.

Offline mrs1986

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Re: Help with gum like dough
« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2021, 04:29:49 PM »
That is about 64 degrees Fahrenheit for 24 hours but I don't know what % yeast to formula you used. .. I think you need more time at that temperature.


There is a fermentation predictability scale on this site...  https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26831.msg393271#msg393271
I checked with the table, and I almost there with 28hs fermentation, I would be a couple of hours short, I used 0.174% (I don't have a micro scale so I'm not 100% precise here)

Offline mrs1986

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Re: Help with gum like dough
« Reply #14 on: May 07, 2021, 11:10:05 PM »
I checked with the table, and I almost there with 28hs fermentation, I would be a couple of hours short, I used 0.174% (I don't have a micro scale so I'm not 100% precise here)
Ok, after a few more batches where I didnít spend that much time kneading, I got to the conclusion that the problem was too much kneading...
Made some more batches and got good results on all of them, sone differences but better results overall...
Here are some pics of the dough and pizzas, even when the dough seems similar, it was actually pretty well stretcheable and didnít break.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2021, 12:09:48 PM by Pete-zza »

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