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Author Topic: How do I improve my dough?  (Read 456 times)

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Offline Willthepizzamaker

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How do I improve my dough?
« on: May 05, 2021, 02:30:24 PM »
My oven is gozney roccbox, I use either kitchen aid or sunmix spiral mixer depends on where or when I mix.
Cooking my dough at 800 floor, 50% fire on the top. I also use semolina remacinata for opening the dough.

I start my dough with

1. CM 00 reinforced flour (70%)
2. CM high gluten bread flour (30%) (I only put this to make pizza to hold the shape or structure for togos.)
3. 68%~70% hydration (I can handle 80% hydration dough easy but gozney roccbox has a very cramped space and I need to use more flour which I hate.  So I go easy on hydration now)
4. 2.8~3% salt
5. 0.33% IDY (caputo)  (I'm a believer that direct method is the best (I love being simple or call me lazy  :-D) I also personally don't like pre-ferment dough taste or blow out cornichon)

Mix flours into a bowl, If I'm going higher hydration, I use double hydration mehtod if not I mix IDY with flour, filtered cool ro/water slowly with mixer, after I hydrated the dough, I put salt, mix for 15~20min until it shows shiny and smooth quality on the dough and try to keep dough temperature around 78~80F (I do not have strong fridge like commercial walk-in so I stop at this temp) After mixing, I immediately scale, ball, CF for 48 hours minimum, bring out the day I use in the morning, keep the dough out side for 2~4hrs depends on how hot it is, keep only dough I'm using for 1 hr, and keep rest in fridge until use. I open the dough around at 67~70F it is very easy to open and smooth. Create very light, crispy, and airy dough.

My question would be

1. If I should lower the salt level. I know this is typical RT fermentation salt amount, but I do love the strength and very controllable on RT proof after 48hrs CF on hot days.
2. I want to reduce "wheaty" flavour from dough. As you know CM use Red hard wheat oppose caputo or other use soft wheat for their 00. How do I achieve this?
3. If I want tiny bit more acid flavour in the pizza dough, RT fermentation is way to go? or you can achieve this with CF too?

Offline Willthepizzamaker

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Re: How do I improve my dough?
« Reply #1 on: May 05, 2021, 03:49:34 PM »
Pic is my pizza

Offline PizzaPartisan

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Re: How do I improve my dough?
« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2021, 07:55:05 AM »
A google makes me assume CM is Central Milling?

If so IMO the 00 has plenty of protein, so to reduce the wheaty flavour just dispense or reduce the use of the less refined bread flour.

You say you don't like the preferment flavours but also want a tiny bit more acid. If you want a direct dough and a bit more acid I believe the way to go would be a CF so you can ferment for longer, develop more of the gasses without overproofing your dough. Honestly though once you're waiting 48hrs or more for a BF it may be worth looking into Poolish or Biga methods. Poolish especially is not really a big hassle. I'm not 100% on this aspect so maybe someone else can confirm or deny.

I'm not clear what you're asking about salt. Salt adds flavour, aids gluten development and tempers yeast growth, so be aware of how it will effect your dough. As I understand it the last factor is why RT ferments use more salt, so if you're CFing you may find less salt is appropriate. I wouldnt go less than 2% for starters tho, I think you'll be getting a bit bland.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: How do I improve my dough?
« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2021, 10:02:46 AM »
A google makes me assume CM is Central Milling?

PizzaPartisan,

For future reference, see:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=20056.msg196875#msg196875

Peter

Offline Willthepizzamaker

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Re: How do I improve my dough?
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2021, 02:31:13 AM »
A google makes me assume CM is Central Milling?

If so IMO the 00 has plenty of protein, so to reduce the wheaty flavour just dispense or reduce the use of the less refined bread flour.

You say you don't like the preferment flavours but also want a tiny bit more acid. If you want a direct dough and a bit more acid I believe the way to go would be a CF so you can ferment for longer, develop more of the gasses without overproofing your dough. Honestly though once you're waiting 48hrs or more for a BF it may be worth looking into Poolish or Biga methods. Poolish especially is not really a big hassle. I'm not 100% on this aspect so maybe someone else can confirm or deny.

I'm not clear what you're asking about salt. Salt adds flavour, aids gluten development and tempers yeast growth, so be aware of how it will effect your dough. As I understand it the last factor is why RT ferments use more salt, so if you're CFing you may find less salt is appropriate. I wouldnt go less than 2% for starters tho, I think you'll be getting a bit bland.
I recently started RT fermentation expirement and I proabably never go back to CF. Was the best pizza dough ever in my life with 70% cm 00, 20% reinforced, 10% khorasan flour. 68% hydration, 3% salt, 12 hr bulk, 10 ball (2kg). With RT it gave lot of "sweet bread flour" and not overwhelming acid flavour. Can you recommend any technique to improve RT fermentation? I'm thinking to mix criscito poolish with idy.

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Offline Willthepizzamaker

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Re: How do I improve my dough?
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2021, 02:34:36 AM »
I know before tom (the dough doctor) passed away, i think he mentioned about mixing sour dough starters and idy don't work well. Could you link the post? Can not fine it. Also if I want to achieve hybrid dough without compromising its' own benefit how should I do it?

For sourdough starter that I want to use is criscito (very convenient for me. I use this rather than feeding sourdough every day) with idy. How should I do it? Make poolish with criscito?
Thanks in advance

Offline Willthepizzamaker

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Re: How do I improve my dough?
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2021, 02:35:12 AM »
PizzaPartisan,

For future reference, see:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=20056.msg196875#msg196875

Peter
I know before tom (the dough doctor) passed away, i think he mentioned about mixing sour dough starters and idy don't work well. Could you link the post? Can not fine it. Also if I want to achieve hybrid dough without compromising its' own benefit how should I do it?

For sourdough starter that I want to use is criscito (very convenient for me. I use this rather than feeding sourdough every day) with idy. How should I do it? Make poolish with criscito?
Thanks in advance

Offline PizzaPartisan

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Re: How do I improve my dough?
« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2021, 03:54:16 AM »
I'm not familiar with criscito, but seems like you'd add it as per instructions into your direct dough. You will have to see for yourself if it affects flavour like you want.

I just had a thought. It may be worth trying using your recipe as it stands but reducing the amount of yeast you use, this will give a longer RT ferment and maybe will move a notch towards the acidic?

As for a poolish no mother dough is required. You can look up a precise recipe elsewhere but its simply a v. Small quantity of yeast and 100% hydration. Leave for 24hours somewhere cool. Then you add it into to your dough the next day subtracting the quantities of flour and water from your final dough recipe.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: How do I improve my dough?
« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2021, 10:38:49 AM »
I know before tom (the dough doctor) passed away, i think he mentioned about mixing sour dough starters and idy don't work well. Could you link the post? Can not fine it.
Willthepizzamaker,

I don't think that Tom was against the combination per se but rather the combination could be used effectively in some cases. Here are some of Tom's posts on this matter:

Reply 4 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=65870.msg644044#msg644044

Reply 8 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=43757.msg438703;topicseen#msg438703

Reply 13 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=57588.msg577792#msg577792

Peter

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