Need help with first 8 hr rm temp dough

[junep]

I want to do an 8 hr, 78F rm temp but need help on timing the dough. How long can I do a bulk ferment before balling and proofing? I'll be using 0.04 IDY, 62%hydration dough using 10% white rye flour and the rest in All Trumps bromated. I've never done such a short fermentation,  same day dough so I need help to get this as right as possible. Thanks! Life is good!

[scott r]

I would let your dough exactly double in size and then form balls.  All trumps is a very strong flour and can take quite a bit of fermentation, bromated all trumps even moreso. 

I know Craigs chart says .04 IDY for 8 hours at 78 degrees, but I think it is based on a lower protein flour and it seems a little low to me.  I would bump this number up a bit to .07 just to be safe.   You can always put the dough in the fridge for a half hour once or twice to slow it down if it is growing too fast once you form balls.  Even though you are doing RT ferment, this doesn't mean that the dough cant be held in the fridge for a few hours when you hit your desired fermentation point.   It wont hurt it, I promise! 

Good luck.

[Pete-zza]

June,

Following Scott’s advice to increase the amount of yeast, you could do the same thing to many of the emergency (roughly four hours or less) dough recipes as set forth for different pizza styles in the thread at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=8297.msg1#

Peter

[junep]

I would let your dough exactly double in size and then form balls.  All trumps is a very strong flour and can take quite a bit of fermentation, bromated all trumps even moreso. 

I know Craigs chart says .04 IDY for 8 hours at 78 degrees, but I think it is based on a lower protein flour and it seems a little low to me.  I would bump this number up a bit to .07 just to be safe.   You can always put the dough in the fridge for a half hour once or twice to slow it down if it is growing too fast once you form balls.  Even though you are doing RT ferment, this doesn't mean that the dough cant be held in the fridge for a few hours when you hit your desired fermentation point.   It wont hurt it, I promise! 

Good luck.

Thank you so much Scott and Pete. Your replies are a huge help. My dough is going to be a combination of 90% All Trumps Bromated and 10% King Arthur light rye, which works to make up for the lack of flavor is such a short fermentation. Should I still use the 0.07 or maybe lower it to 0.064 to compensate for the 10% Rye flour? It's too late for me to start that dough today, so it will have to wait till tomorrow. Thank your again, Scott and Pete. And Pete: that list you saved is priceless! I'll make this dough tomorrow. One more question: Since I should up the years amount for the rm temp ferment using higher protein flours, since going from from 0.04 to 0.07IDY  means an increase of 175%, should I just do 175% of all the ferment numbers in the chart when using my 14% flours? Thanks so much. I'm making copious notes on all of this! 💕💕😊💕Life is good!

[foreplease]

One more question: Since I should up the years amount for the rm temp ferment using higher protein flours, since going from from 0.04 to 0.07IDY  means an increase of 175%, should I just do 175% of all the ferment numbers in the chart when using my 14% flours? Thanks so much. I'm making copious notes on all of this! 💕💕😊💕Life is good!

Small point that you may need if you scale this up. 0.04 to 0.07 means and increase of 75%, making the higher amount 175% of the smaller. (.07-04) / 0.4 = 0.75


When you mentioned doing 175% of all ingredients that was correct.

[jsaras]

You should aim to get your finished dough temperature at that room temp, which means controlling the water temperature.  The formula that works for me is 131 - flour temp (F) = starting water temp.  You may need to shift the “131” up or down a little bit, depending upon your particular mixing regimen.

[scott r]

Should I still use the 0.07 or maybe lower it to 0.064 to compensate for the 10% Rye flour?

Since I should up the years amount for the rm temp ferment using higher protein flours, since going from from 0.04 to 0.07IDY  means an increase of 175%, should I just do 175% of all the ferment numbers in the chart when using my 14% flours?

I think .07 or .064 will both work.  Honestly how fresh your IDY is, or how you have stored it could make more of a difference than the small difference in those numbers.

No, I dont think you need to adjust Craigs chart up for all of your doughs with all trumps, but yes, you will want to use a little more yeast for that flour vs say KAAP to get optimum results from each of those flours.... even with 10% rye in there for the all trumps batch.   

.04 is just a small amount of IDY for an 8 hour dough (for me in my house with my mixer and my bulk IDY that I buy infrequently) so I commented.  Craig has said himself that his chart is just a starting point.  For sure there are some situations it will be spot on.... but if someone tells me they are making an 8 hour dough usually that means they are having people over for dinner or a set dinner time.  In that situation (rather than one where you can wait for the dough) I have learned that its better to err a little bit on the faster side for your ferment.  Its better to cool it down to slow it down rather than have your dough be behind where you are forced to use an immature dough with no way to control that.  Most people dont have a dough proofer in their house and most home cooks are doing a long preheat on their home oven (so they cant use the oven with the light on as a proofer and speed up the dough).

In the end the point is just watch the dough not the chart... there are too many variables and this rant was set off by seeing .04 IDY for 8 hour rise which would produce an immature dough for me with all trumps.

[scott r]

You should aim to get your finished dough temperature at that room temp, which means controlling the water temperature.  The formula that works for me is 131 - flour temp (F) = starting water temp.  You may need to shift the “131” up or down a little bit, depending upon your particular mixing regimen.

Good point.  I think Craigs chart is based on a 75 degree finished dough temp (I could be wrong) but its important to realize that this is very important! 

[junep]

You should aim to get your finished dough temperature at that room temp, which means controlling the water temperature.  The formula that works for me is 131 - flour temp (F) = starting water temp.  You may need to shift the “131” up or down a little bit, depending upon your particular mixing regimen.

I'm having a problem understanding what 131 means??? I understand that if my rm temp is 78F, that my water should be 78F, right? When you wrote that flour temp equals starting water temp, do you mean the dough finished temp should be 78, or my flour should be 78F? And, please, what is 131 and how do I use  it? Sorry that I'm not getting this right away.

[junep]

I think .07 or .064 will both work.  Honestly how fresh your IDY is, or how you have stored it could make more of a difference than the small difference in those numbers.

No, I dont think you need to adjust Craigs chart up for all of your doughs with all trumps, but yes, you will want to use a little more yeast for that flour vs say KAAP to get optimum results from each of those flours.... even with 10% rye in there for the all trumps batch.   

.04 is just a small amount of IDY for an 8 hour dough (for me in my house with my mixer and my bulk IDY that I buy infrequently) so I commented.  Craig has said himself that his chart is just a starting point.  For sure there are some situations it will be spot on.... but if someone tells me they are making an 8 hour dough usually that means they are having people over for dinner or a set dinner time.  In that situation (rather than one where you can wait for the dough) I have learned that its better to err a little bit on the faster side for your ferment.  Its better to cool it down to slow it down rather than have your dough be behind where you are forced to use an immature dough with no way to control that.  Most people dont have a dough proofer in their house and most home cooks are doing a long preheat on their home oven (so they cant use the oven with the light on as a proofer and speed up the dough).

In the end the point is just watch the dough not the chart... there are too many variables and this rant was set off by seeing .04 IDY for 8 hour rise which would produce an immature dough for me with all trumps.

Thanks again Scott. My IDY is only about 2 weeks old and in the fridge. I selected the 8hr Rm temp ferment for myself, wanting the dough ready to bake around 5 or 6 o'clock. Since I left a bedroom window open last night, it chilled the house and my house was no longer 78F. Plus I was up late and overslept. So instead, I'm going to make the dough for rm temp 24hrs for pizza tomorrow, making sure to close the window over night. The chart shows for 23 hrs, idy should be 0.01, so I think I should move it forward 3 spaces on the chart and us 0.032 idy. My plan is to use it for my first bake in my new Ooni Karu 16 which I'll get to temperature in 30-40 minutes. I tested it last week and it got well over 900F at the back in a short time. So timing of the dough won't be a problem even if the dough is proofed earlier. I'll cool it down in my garage fridge which is super cold. I've been using that chart successfully for years for my 72hr CF, first with KASLancelot which I can't get any more in the 5 lb bags. Until recently I've been using GM unbromated All Trumps and just switched a week ago when I found a source for a 25 lb bag of GM golden All Trumps bromated which I found on line. Thanks again for being such a great source of help and information! Life is good!