Pizza Making Forum

Pizza Making => New York Style => Topic started by: Pete-zza on September 27, 2004, 07:22:08 PM

Title: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on September 27, 2004, 07:22:08 PM
EDIT: For a roadmap/index and a brief summary of several of the Lehmann NY style dough recipes on this thread, please see the related thread "Pete-zza's Roadmap to the Lehmann NY Style Recipes" (under "New York Style", at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1453.0.html).

I recently decided to make a home version of Tom Lehmann's New York style pizza dough using the recipe posted in the recipe bank of the PMQ site.

In the past I have experimented with Tom L.'s recipe on several occasions but usually I departed from his instructions by using a lot less yeast (around 1/8 teaspoon), staging the ingredients in a different sequence, and sometimes even using an autolyse period. And occasionally I would use a food processor. The pizzas usually were quite good with a thin, chewy and leathery crust characteristic of a NY style pizza crust, but I am not sure that by changing the recipe as much as I did I was really making a "real" NY style pizza. So, over the weekend I decided to try to take Tom L.'s recipe and scale it down for home use and follow as closely as possible the instructions he set forth for his recipe.  I determined that I wanted to make a single 16-inch pizza, and, using the standard expression W = Pi (i.e., 3.14) x R x R x 0.10, I concluded that I would need a dough ball of around 20 ounces. I also decided to use instant dry yeast, at the lower end of the range recommended by Tom L. (converting from cake yeast to IDY), and the highest hydration percentage recommended by Tom L., about 65%.  Adding together all the baker's percents, I calculated that I would need 11.80 ounces of high-gluten flour (KA Sir Lancelot). The final list of ingredients and their amounts came out as follows:

       High-gluten flour, 11.80 oz. (about 2 1/2 c.)
       Water, 7.70 oz. (about 1 c.) (about 65% hydration)
       IDY, 0.20 oz. (1 1/2 t.) [Edit: See Note below]
       Salt, 0.20 oz. (3/4 t.)
       Olive oil (light), 0.12 oz. (3/4 t.)
       Thickness factor (TF) = 0.10

To prepare the dough, I first put the water and the salt in the bowl of my stand mixer and stirred them a bit. I then combined the flour and the IDY and added them all at once to the water in the bowl. Using the paddle attachment, I mixed the ingredients in the bowl for about 2 minutes at #1 (low) speed. At the end of the 2 minutes, the flour was fully taken up into the dough. I then added the olive oil and, continuing to use the paddle attachment, kneaded the oil into the dough at #1 speed for about a minute or two (I found the paddle attachment to be better than using the dough hook as called for in Tom L.'s directions). After the olive oil was fully incorporated into the dough, I switched to the dough hook and continued kneading the dough, at #3 speed (out of 10), until the dough was sufficiently smooth and elastic and capable of passing the windowpane test. This took about 7 minutes. The dough was soft and a little bit damp to the touch--no doubt due to the high hydration percentage--but held together well and was not particularly soggy or sticky. As Tom L.'s recipe calls for, I had adjusted the temperature of the water at the outset to achieve a finished dough temperature of 80-85 degrees F. The dough logged in at 84 degrees F. Its weight was around 20 ounces.  

As soon as the dough was done, I oiled it lightly, put it into a plastic bowl, covered the bowl, and put it into the refrigerator. From time to time, I checked the dough while it was in the refrigerator and noted that it tended to rise fairly quickly, expanding by about 50 percent within an hour or two of being put into the refrigerator. After several hours, the dough expansion seemed to peak and stabilize at about double the original volume. I left the dough in the refrigerator for exactly 24 hours, following which I brought it out to room temperature to let it warm up (it was about 52 degrees F at that point and still a little bit damp to the touch but not in need of any flour addition).  

Exactly 2 hours later, I shaped the dough into a roughly 16-inch pizza round. The dough was quite extensible with moderate elasticity and was quite easy to work with. If anything, it was a little too extensible and a little too inelastic, making it somewhat difficult to toss the dough once it had been stretched out to about 12 inches. I suspect that this condition was attributable to the high hydration percentage.

It's important to note that Tom L.'s recipe does not specifically call for sugar for those situations where the pizza is to be baked on a deck (or, by extension, on a pizza stone or tiles in a home environment), but allows for the possibility of using sugar for other bake applications (as on screens or disks) where it is unlikely that the dough will come into direct contact with a heat source and prematurely brown. I had decided to use a 16-inch screen in combination with the use of a pizza stone preheated for about 1 hour at the maximum temperature of my oven, about 500-550 degrees F. Under the circumstances, I chose not to use any added sugar in the recipe. Maybe the lack of added sugar can become a problem after a few days, but it didn't seem to be after 24 hours.

Once the pizza was dressed, I baked it on the screen for about 5 minutes, following which I slid the pizza onto the preheated pizza stone for about 2 more minutes to increase the browning on the bottom of the crust. I then removed the pizza from the oven to my cutting board and took the photo shown below (and in the following post). For those who are interested in knowing what was put on the pizza, it included some 6-in-1 tomatoes right out of the can and combined with some crushed, canned San Marzano tomatoes, dried basil and dried oregano, crushed red pepper, sliced deli mozzarella cheese (County Line), provolone slices, pepperoni, partially-cooked hot Italian sausage (removed from their casings), a swig or two of olive oil, fresh basil and freshly-grated Parmigiano-Reggiano cheese (added after baking).

I don't fancy myself an expert on New York style pizza by any means, but this one struck me as exceptional. The crust was chewy and leathery, as I like it, and the rim was light and airy with a lot of large, irregular shaped holes and without being bready tasting. And the rim was huge. I had commented in another thread about how high hydration levels used by ciabatta breads results in large, irregular shaped holes, and this characteristic was apparent in the rim of the pizza I made. In fact, the holes were bigger than in any other pizza I have ever made. I have made Tom L.'s recipe before using a much lower hydration percentage, around 57%, and it did not turn out nearly as well as the one with the 65% hydration. The dough in that experiment was clearly drier and not quite as extensible but with somewhat greater elasticity. As between the two, the one I made yesterday was clearly superior.

(Note: The amount of yeast recited above is more than called for by the basic Lehmann dough recipe, by a factor of about 10. The results will still be good but see later postings below for correction of yeast amount.)

Peter

Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on September 27, 2004, 07:26:50 PM
And a Lehmann NY slice.

Peter
Title: Re:N.Y. Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on September 29, 2004, 03:24:30 PM
Yesterday I proposed a question to Tom Lehmann at PMQ about possible ways for converting a pizza dough recipe (in this case, Tom L.'s recipe for NY style dough) for home use, particularly since home equipment differs considerably from commercial equipment.  I received a reply today.  What surprised me most was Tom L.'s view of the windowpane test.  I had read before that he draws a distinction between making bread dough and pizza dough, and apparently his answer today reflects that position.

Here are both the question I posed and the answer received (in quotes):

"Tom,
I have been experimenting at home with your NY style dough recipe for some time. I started by drastically reducing the amount of yeast to as little as 1/8 t. IDY for 1 pound of flour, I added no sugar, and otherwise followed the recipe's instructions, including adjusting water temperature to achieve a finished dough temp. of 80-85 degrees F, separately adding the oil later in the process, etc. I used the windowpane test to determine when the dough was properly kneaded and promptly put the dough into the refrigerator (at around 42 degrees F.) There would be little dough expansion while in the refrigerator, but when brought out to room temperature (from 1 to 3 days later), the dough would rise sufficiently (after 2-3 hours) to make a pizza with quite respectable results. (I have done this using both a stand mixer and food processor for the dough processing).

More recently, I have increased the amount of yeast to more normal levels, again following your recipe as closely as possible. The dough rises considerably while in the refrigerator, increasing by about 50% in volume within an hour or two and to about double or more over a 24-hour period, again achieving good results after letting the dough rise for about 2-3 hours before shaping, dressing and baking on a preheated pizza stone or on a pizza screen. What I am wondering is whether there is an optimum or preferred formulation of your recipe for home use, including any recommended changes to processing. Some possibilities that come to mind include reducing the amount of yeast from normal levels, using even cooler water, and reducing the time that the dough is held out at room temperature before shaping (but still above 50 degrees F), etc.--all in an effort to adapt the recipe to conditions and equipment used in the home and to compensate for the many differences between a home and commercial setting, particularly the use of a refrigerator which has higher operating temperatures than professional coolers, home stand mixers, etc. Any guidance or suggestions you can offer would be very much appreciated.
Peter

Peter;
Forget about the "window" test. That is appropriate for making breads, but not pizza dough. For pizza dough you just want to mix the dough long enough to get a smooth appearance to the dough, no longer. If you want, you can take a piece of the dough just before you shape and dress it and stretch it out in your fingers and you will be amazed at how thin you can stretch the dough. This is due to biochemical gluten development. This is what allowed bakers to make breads and pizzas way befroe Mr. Hobart created his first patentable invention. Because you are working in volumetric measures, I cannot comment on the amounts of each ingredient that you are using, but you are doing things the right way by experimenting with the amounts to find out just what works best for YOU, in YOUR kitchen. When I make my dough at home, I like to shape the dough into balls right after mixing, then lightly oil them with salad oil, and drop each dough ball into its own plastic bread bag and place into the refrigerator for use over the following day(s). If you need to allow the dough ball to remain at room temperature for much more than 1.5 hours, your dough could benefit from being mixed at a slightly higher temperature. You should be able to take the dough out of the refrigerator 1 hour to 1.5 hours before shaping and then shape it without difficulty. If you find that you need to wait longer than this, try increasing the finished (mixed) dough temperature by 5F. When I turn the dough out of the plastic bag I put it directly into a bowl of dusting flour and begin shaping it. For a really neat appearance (old world) try using semolina flour or rye flour as a dusting flour. With this time of the year you can pick up a fresh tomato at any market. Try using sliced tomato rather than the more traditional pizza sauce, add a little fresh chopped sweet basil, apply your desired toppings, and get ready for some great pizza.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Docotr"

Peter

Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: DKM on September 29, 2004, 05:07:33 PM
Interesting views.  8)

DKM
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on September 29, 2004, 07:27:01 PM
Yeah.  As I thought about Tom L.'s comments on short knead times and dispensing with the windowpane test, I couldn't but help notice that that advice runs counter to what a lot of people do and what many recipes call for.  For example, on the matter of knead times, the basic recipe for making a classic Neapolitan dough with 00 flour calls for a total of 30 minutes knead time.  Similarly, a Pamela Sheldon Johns "equivalent" dough recipe using a combination of all-purpose flour and cake flour calls for a total of 30 minutes knead time.  Alton Brown calls for 15 minutes of kneading at medium speed for his bread flour dough.  The New York style dough recipe at this site calls for at least 15 minutes of knead time.

As for the windowpane test, it is one specified by Peter Reinhart and other fussy people such as Alton Brown and Jeffrey Steingarten.  The New York style dough recipe at this site also specifies the windowpane test.  I personally like it.  It's simple and gives you a target to shoot for.  It is also good--for the same reason--for people who do not have a lot experience with making doughs.   I suspect that most of us who make pizzas a lot keep a close eye on the dough as it is being kneaded, looking for the moment when everything has come together into what appears to be a smooth elastic ball.  Usually, that condition coincides with passing the windowpane test.  But since not all types of flours or combinations of flours behave the same, I like the idea of the windowpane test.  

Peter
Title: Re:Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Steve on September 30, 2004, 08:17:34 AM
Excellent research, Peter. You've uncovered a lot of good information which should help many people. I haven't forgotten about you regarding the new updated NY style pizza recipe for the main website. I'm dealing with some personal issues at home right now and website development is a low priority. I'll try to incorporate your findings (no pun intended) into the page soon. Thanks and keep up the great work!!  8)
Title: Re:Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on September 30, 2004, 10:18:54 AM
Steve,

Take your time.  I have a backlog of pizza slices that I am reheating after playing around with variations of Tom L.'s recipe :D).Then I'll look at other possibilities with the recipe without straying too far from it and changing its basic character.

Peter
Title: Re:Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: giotto on October 02, 2004, 05:34:26 AM
Pete-zza:

It's interesting.  I totally agree with everything that Tom Lehmann suggests and found it a relief to read his notes.  Tom seems to differentiate between working with 50 lbs of flour as a professional vs. working with just a few cups at home.  I've noticed also that professional doughs take on a completely different color than home doughs, which often look oxidized.  I let the refrigeration do most of the work as well as create most of the taste.

- I receive incredibly consistent results mixing only a few minutes as Tom suggests (along with a single short interval of hand kneading) to reach smooth dough.  My final temp is always around 80F, and I immediately get it in the refrigerator.

- The water level is dependent on the flour absorption.  I've seen 13% - 14% high protein flours give completely different results.  With some high protein flours, a higher than 60% water to flour mixture is best left for a soup mix (e.g. ,10 - 12 oz of flour and 6 - 7.2 oz of water for a 14 - 16" pizza).  With Pendleton's power flour (13.5%), however, just over 60% fluid gives a very consistent non-sticky smooth result.

- I only use 1/4 tsp active yeast for 10 oz of flour to produce pizzas as shown in the picture below.  As I've found with many pro pizza doughs, the pizza dough doesn't rise much in the refrigerator.  Yet it sure does the trick when it comes to producing nice bubbles during preparation and giving me a nice outer crust.  Reinhart doesn't use much yeast either in his NY styles.

- I run my kitchenaid with a dough hook only at level 1 for various reasons, just as hobarts run very slowly.  And I let refrigeration do the work.  

My results are not at all overly extensible (stretchy).  I rely on tossing, followed by turning the dough in the air-- I can't afford it to stretch to the floor.  So some elasiticity (pull back) is essential for those who wish to toss the pizza.  If elasticity is a problem when dough is first taken out of a refrigerator, any reforming of the dough into a ball will increase the elasticity for a short-term, as will working with it in a colder state.  

Handling of the dough in final preparation is key for my final results:

- I place my dough in a light amount of flour in a bowl, as Tom suggests, covered with a towel for only 30 or so minutes while I get my ingredients together (many pros work effectively with cold dough).  Sometimes I leave it longer; but I get great results regardless with this procedure:

- For those who worry about airy results, this is definitely in the handling of the dough.  I do everything possible not to kill the air bubbles when preparing the dough. This combined with less kneading when creating the dough gives me the most consistent results.  By treating the dough with kid gloves during preparation, rather than slapping the heck out of it like some sites recommend, you can protect the bubbles (especially where the outer crust forms) and get airy results.  I don't use a roller; but instead lay it out by hand (toss, turn in air, and stetch gently by hand, always being careful of bubbles in outside edges. Any of these techniques are effective).

- You can also further increase your chances with airy results by placing the dough in the oven without any toppings for about 60 seconds at 515 F, which will result in some slight bubbles, allowing the top to separate from the bottom.  

High gluten flour combined with handling techniques help assure chewy and airy results.  

When my brother-in-law visiting from New York said "Eat your heart out Brooklyn," my heart lept because I was getting consistent results (note the bubbles on the outside).
(http://home.comcast.net/~keck-foundation1/bubble-licious.jpg)

Airy on the outside with a slim profile accenting the Grande mozzarella along the front of the pizza...
(http://home.comcast.net/~keck-foundation1/Now-thats-a-slice.JPG)

Airy and slightly chewy on the inside...
(http://home.comcast.net/~keck-foundation1/down-to-the-last-bite.jpg)

I've gotten to the point where it doesn't matter whether I make my own dough, or I buy something like Trader Joe's dough made from a local pro, as long as my handling techniques are similar, I get similar NY style results with great taste.  I'm also using 6-in-1 tomatoes thinned out with olive oil and filtered water, combined with fresh locally raised purple basil in this picture.
Title: Re:Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 02, 2004, 12:18:05 PM
Giotto,

You will note from one of my earlier posts on this thread that I made a NY style pizza dough based on Tom L.'s recipe.  I used 1 1/2 t. instant dry yeast.  In actuality, that was an error.  As I examined Tom L's yeast levels in relation to amounts of flour, I came up with such small amounts that I thought I had made a calculation mistake and was off by about a factor of 10. No matter how much I played around with the numbers, they were orders of magnitude less than the vast majority of NY style pizza dough recipes I have seen, including some at this site (Canadave's recipe being a good example).  I was perfectly satisfied with the results of the pizza, however, notwitstanding the error.  The pizza was actually quite exceptional.  But because of my puzzlement over the quantities of yeast called for in Tom L.'s recipe, I sent him a followup question, from which you will see in the Q and A below, that even Tom, who should know more about his own recipe than anyone else, thought I was off on my yeast calculations by a factor of 10 (you will also note that he himself made a math error in dividing 0.12 by 2 and getting 0.6 instead of 0.06).  Here's the Q and A (in quotes):

"Tom
Thank you for your reply. In revisiting your NY style dough recipe and looking at the baker's percent for yeast, I see that the recipe calls for compressed yeast at 0.5-0.75% by weight of flour. If I use a pound of flour (16 ounces), it would appear that the amount of compressed yeast would be 0.08-0.12 ounces by weight, and that for ADY it would be 0.04-0.06 ounces, and for IDY it would be 0.027-0.04 ounces. Did I get the numbers right? They seem on the low side compared with most NY style dough recipes I have seen. Thanks.
Peter

Peter;
Lets do the math. We will use the o.75% yeast level. 1-pound is 454 grams, and 1-ounce is roughly 28.4 grams. Using your calculator: 454 X .75 (press the "%" key) and you will see 3.405 (grams) in the display. So, 3.405 divided by 28.4 = .1198943 ounce (I'd call it 0.12-ounce). If you are using ADY, the amount to use is haly of the compressed yeast weight so the answer for ADY is 0.12 divided by 2 = 0.6-ounce (Pete-zza Note: 0.12/2 should be 0.06, not 0.6). It just looks like you have the decimal point in the wrong place,so your numbers are low by 10-fold. Otherwise your math is probably correct.
As you can see, when working in small amounts it is really difficult to keep the ingredient portions correct, even a slight breeze on the scale can upset your scaling accuracy by a significant margin. And volumetrics just won't work at all. My feeling is when using volumetrics in small scale baking, if it works, don't mess with it.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor"

As you can see, my math was right, but in light of Tom's comments I am still scratching my head.  Mind you, I am aware that small amounts of yeast can work and I have on several occasions--as you have also, including your most recent post--reported on the results of using small amounts of yeast.  Also, as it turns out, I had previously posted a recipe that I had some time ago adapted from Tom L.'s NY style dough recipe, but using a modified procedure for dough production, in which I correctly calculated the amount of yeast to use for the amount of flour I was using.  In revisiting that recipe, I thought that I undercalculated there also.  (The recipe was posted on the sourdough thread, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/yabbse/index.php?board=5;action=display;threadid=528;start=msg4636#msg4636, in connection with a question on sourdough pizza).  

Along the lines of using small amounts of yeast, yesterday I made another pizza dough based on Tom L.'s recipe in which I used enough of the ingredients (including 1/4 t. IDY) to produce a dough ball weighing around 20 ounces, enough to make a 16-inch dough round.  Because of the interest expressed on this forum for light and airy crusts, I decided to use a hydration percentage at the upper end of the hydration range recited in Tom L.'s recipe, around 65-66 percent.  The pizza made earlier in the week (and reported in an earlier post) also had a high hydration percentage, and the results were a very light and airy crust, especially in the rim.   In making the most recent pizza, I tried to follow Tom L.'s recipe as closely as possible, so as to be able to compare the results with previous experiments using the same recipe and also to see if there are meaningful changes that might be suggested for improving the recipe for use in a home environment.  I will be reporting more fully on the results of the most recent pizza later today.  

Until then, I will make some general observations about Tom L.'s recipe based on my many experiments with the recipe to date.  Using high hydration percentages seems to produce a light and airy crust, even when the rims are not huge.  Using small amounts of yeast, as little as 1/8-1/4 t. instant dry yeast for about 12 ounces or even a pound of flour, will produce acceptable results, but using considerably more will also produce good results.  In fact, I would tend to lean toward using more yeast rather than minimal amounts.  I haven't yet decided where to draw the line, and maybe following the dough processing steps you have been using, Giotto, will help determine where that line might reasonably be drawn.  I think it is well worth a test.  

The final observation I will make is that I have noticed a difference in how a pizza will turn out based on the amount of dough I am using and the size of the pizza I am making.  The pizzas I have made using 11 ounces of dough (12-inch pizza) come out different than those using 20 ounces of dough (16-inch pizza), following the same recipe--including Tom L.'s.  The smaller pizzas I have made (before I had my digital camera in operation to show some photos) have had smaller and more crunchy rims, whereas the larger pizzas I have made more recently have had much larger and more bready, more open and airy textures in the rim.  The smaller pizzas were baked entirely on my pizza stone, whereas the larger pizzas were baked on a pizza screen in combination with the stone.  I did not make any attempt to make the rims bigger or smaller on either size pizza.  I am not yet sure at the dynamics at play.  But I kinda like the idea of making somewhat different kinds of pizzas using the same dough.  For example, I can make a 22 ounce dough ball and use it to make a single 16-inch pizza or divide it in half and make a couple of 12-inch pizzas, with different characteristics.  

BTW, Giotto, nice looking pizza ;D ;D.

Peter



Title: Re:Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 02, 2004, 01:39:06 PM
The following is the latest iteration of the Tom Lehmann NY style pizza dough recipe:

     12 oz. high-gluten (KA Sir Lancelot) flour (about 2 1/2 c.)
     8 oz. water (about 1 c.) (about 67% hydration)
     0.21 oz. salt (about 1 t.)
     0.12 oz. olive oil (light) (about 3/4 t.)
     0.020 oz. instant dry yeast (about 1/4 t.)
    Thickness factor (TF) = 0.10

The processing of the above ingredients was the same as previously reported earlier this week in this thread.  The final kneading cycle--after the dough ingredients had been mixed and the oil incorporated--was around 6-7 minutes.  The finished dough ball had a weight of around 20 ounces--sufficient for a 16-inch pizza--and its temperature was around 83 degrees F.  After oiling the dough ball, it was placed into a plastic bowl, covered and put into the refrigerator. The only difficulty I had in making the dough ball was a common one with a small amount of dough in a stand mixer--incorporating the oil into an already kneaded dough.  I sometimes move the dough into my food processor for this step, since the processor does a better job with a small amount of dough, but I stuck with the stand mixer this time, as I have with all the other experiments with the Tom Lehmann recipe.  To get the dough ball to the right state, I used my hands to get the dough ball to more fully absorb the oil.  (I'd be interested in knowing how Giotto gets around this problem, especially in using only 10 ounces of dough with around 6 ounces of water.)

The dough remained in the refrigerator for exactly 24 hours, as I have done with all the previous Lehmann dough experiments in order to be able to better compare the results of the different experiments.  While in the refrigerator, the dough rose by about 25%.  After I brought the dough out of the refrigerator, I let the dough sit at room temperature for exactly 2 hours, as I have also done with prior Lehmann dough experiments.   As I started to shape the dough, I noticed that it was extremely extensible, and not as elastic as I would like.  Although I am usually careful not to reshape or rework the dough into a new dough ball at this stage, for fear that doing so will tighten up the dough again and possibly force out some of the trapped gasses, I did so this time in an effort to regain the elasticity of the dough.  This worked, but the dough became too elastic and required a rest of about 15 minutes before it could be shaped into a dough round (16-inch).  After dressing the dough (a fairly standard pepperoni pizza), the pizza was baked on a 16-inch pizza screen for about 5 minutes, and was then transferred for a final 2 minutes or so (for bottom browning) to a pizza stone that had been preheated at 500-550 degrees F for an hour.   The photo below (and in the following two posts) shows the results.  

The pizza tasted fine, but as between this one and the one made earlier in the week with the considerably higher amount of yeast (1 1/2 t. IDY), I liked the previous one better.  Even though the most recent pizza had a soft crust, for some reason it seemed breadier, particularly in the rim of the crust, than the previous one using a lot more yeast.  The high hydration, however, did result in an open and airy crust, especially so in the rim.  I'm inclined at this point to continue to experiment with the processing of the dough, quite possibly repeating the recipe but along the processing lines followed by Giotto.  I would also like to return to my early recipe to make a smaller size pizza (12-inches), for comparison purposes, and also to make a food processor version where only a small amount of dough is to be made.

Peter

  
Title: Re:Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 02, 2004, 01:44:45 PM
And for a Lehmann slice (recipe using 1/4 t. IDY).

Peter
Title: Re:Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 02, 2004, 01:47:17 PM
And for yet another slice view (Lehmann recipe with 1/4 t. IDY).

Peter
Title: Re:Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: giotto on October 02, 2004, 02:27:50 PM
Pete-zza:

I realize you were working with Lehman's recipe, and hence my last comments.  Quantity is always an interesting game though in almost any food industry.  As you increase quantity of primary ingredients, for example, you can't necessarily rely on merely keeping other ingredients directly proportional.  I have worked with higher yeast contents and have found disastrous results as I've increased the number of pizza doughs that are made.  I also like to consider oils and any other fluids to calculate % of "fluid" to flour (rather than merely water to flour).

It's amazing how little yeast is used in some cases by professionals when working with 50 lbs of flour.  I work with 20 oz of flour (measured by my digital readout) to give me two 14" pizzas similar to my posting above, and find around a 1/2 tsp active yeast to be plenty.  I find cooler water to be useful as well, which you'll find to be the case with Canadave as well.  By using cooler water, I can better control the fermentation process and don't have to worry about when I use other ingredients.  By using active yeast, I don't have to worry about its ability to handle cooler water either.  I do not worry about sugar either, since 1 tsp is merely 1g for a quarter of a pizza.

I think it would be interesting to find out what you find by talking to professionals in your area that provide the types of dough you love, and also try purchasing their doughs to see and feel their behavior.  As you know from my prior postings, this is a straightforward strategy that provides an incredibly important dimension to pizza making and has proven very useful for me in the past, as well as others who have tried it.  You can learn much in a hands-on process.  And for a buck, it's a worthwhile investment.  I recently took a class from a local pro as well. I've found in every case that the % of yeast many of these professionals use is far below what we often use.  Like I said, things are not always proportional as you increase your formulas, and yeast has definitely proven this to be the case.
Title: Re:Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 02, 2004, 04:17:33 PM
Giotto,

You are correct about the Lehmann recipe.  I have been operating within the constraints of the recipe, since it is that recipe that Steve is considering adding to the site.  If I depart too much from the recipe, then it is no longer Tom Lehmann's recipe and it becomes something else--whatever that is.  That's no reason not to try to improve the recipe, since that is what this forum is all about, and your recent comments offer some promise in that regard.  As you know, I have long been an advocate of using small amounts of yeast and cooler water temperatures, but that doesn't stop me from being open to any other possibilities.  In the final analysis, what really matters is not some slavish devotion to some concept of physics or chemistry that might appeal to me on an intellectual level, but what does the pizza look and taste like?  I'll always go with the taste before the chemistry and physics--maybe begrudgingly--but that is where I will go.  It's in my nature to play the devil's advocate and try to get others to defend their positions, but my ultimate objective is to get the best pizza possible.

You mentioned Canadave.  As you will note if you go to the New York Style Dough, etc. thread, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/yabbse/index.php?board=5;action=display;threadid=389;start=120, I made a dough following Canadave's recipe. Apart from the amount of sugar his recipe calls for, which is a strictly a matter of personal taste (I just happen not to like a lot of sugar in pizza doughs), his recipe, which calls for a much larger amount of yeast than I normally use, produced a highly exceptional pizza, much like the pizza reported at the top of this thread but without the sugar (which is optional in the Lehmann recipe, about 1-2% according to other information at the PMQ site).  As you point out, Canadave also uses cool tap water and, as you do, he also uses a metal container for more quickly cooling down his dough while in the refrigerator.  That idea personally appeals to me, especially since a refrigerator in the usual home setting has a higher operating temperature than a commercial cooler.  Using a metal container is easy enough to do, so even if I am wrong, it doesn't cause any harm that I can tell.

As for exploring what local professionals do in my area, I have perhaps been remiss in not doing more.  In part, this has been because the professionals use ingredients that I can't easily get myself, so showing me what I am missing doesn't particularly lift my spirits.  And I have been making pizzas for myself for so long that it has been literally years since I last had a pizza from ANY pizzeria.  And, like DKM, I am not into idolatry or particularly anxious to try to replicate pizzas from any of the majors, whether it is Domino's, Pizza Hut, Papa John's, Malnati's, or Gino's or anyone else.  To me, that's a fool's errand, since they operate under a different set of rules than I do, and I don't sense from what I have read or heard that their pizzas are worth copying anyway.  On this score, I would rather look at what the locals do, as I believe you are suggesting anyway, and, to this end, I am planning to do more with that when I am on vacation later this month in Massachusetts, where a close friend, fully aware of my interest in pizza, wants to take me to his favorite pizza place to spend some time with the pizza maker.   I am looking forward to that and hoping it materializes.

Peter
Title: Re:Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: canadave on October 02, 2004, 05:39:29 PM
My ears were ringing, so I figured I'd hop into this conversation ;)

Glad my recipe worked for you, Peter.  I've been reading your Tom Lehmann recipe adventures on this thread with interest.

I have a question--what difference does the final temperature of the dough make as it comes out of the mixer, if it's going to go straight into the fridge and completely cool down within a matter of minutes anyway?  I always see dough temperature being discussed, and I've never been able to understand the rationale there if one is to use immediate refrigeration.

The only thing I can think of is that a higher-temperature dough allows for slightly longer initial yeast action, but I don't see how that would significantly alter the final dough product.

Just out of curiosity, what temperature did you start your water out at, in order to achieve 84 F coming out of the mixer?

Cheers,
Dave
Title: Re:Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: giotto on October 02, 2004, 06:04:53 PM
Pete-zza:

I believe that availability of sources from local pizzerias that are favorites for an individual can be less of a hindrance in many cases than any other source.  I have been able to access 3 high gluten flours and Grande cheese locally and was able to benefit peers in a recent pizza class since everything was local.  Yet, when posting the same ingredients as well as national sources, people remote to this area had to go to incredibly lengthy processes to obtain the same result via mail orders.  

A primary interest of many people out there is to meet the needs of their own personal palate.  If people have local sources (40 mile radius even), where they can fully utilize each of their senses such as smell, taste, etc., than I believe they are better off following local sources when starting out, than fishing for something where their senses can't be used.  And even experts, as we've seen on the food channel, can definitely learn by getting out there.

The internet is great to close the gap.  But when it comes to pizza, there are sooo... many permutations involved with every step.  I'm an advocate of "get out and taste America."  So my recommendation for newbies, and even experienced people, is to stop searching the trash cans of their local sources, and walk in the front door and see what is available.  

Maybe someday we'll get a chance to get to Phoenix and see just how well Bianco's meets our taste buds.  Personally, I find the greatest thing in business travel to be learning about food.  I hope you find some great experiences on your trip.
Title: Re:Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 02, 2004, 07:45:27 PM
Canadave,

I think the rationale for controlling dough temperature pretty much comes out of the pizza industry.  The temperature that is usually targeted for the dough when it comes off of the dough hook is 80-85 degrees F, which, according to the experts at the American Institute of Baking, is considered optimum for dough fermentation.  The concern when making a lot of dough balls is that if the finished dough temperature is too high, the dough balls will start to expand and act like insulators (filling up with carbon dioxide and air) and be hard to cool down, even as they are placed in the cooler.  If too warm, they might even expand too fast when in the cooler, causing them to overferment, or "blow", under the worst of circumstances.  

The finished dough temperature also serves another important purpose--to insure that the dough when it comes off the hook is pretty much always at the same temperature, no matter the temperature of the room where the dough is made, the temperature of the flour, the type of equipment used to knead the dough (which produces frictional heat), whether it is summer or winter, or whatever.   Pizza professionals need that consistency of dough temperature to produce the dough in a reproducible way, reliably, day after day.  Otherwise, the dough may behave differently from day to day, which is not likely to be a good thing for business if you can't predict what your dough is likely to do, not to mention the harm that it does to the dough management process as a whole.

In a home setting, I suspect that temperature is likely to be of lesser concern under ordinary circumstances where one or a small number of dough balls is being made.  However, even then, if the dough temperature is too high, the dough can rise considerably even while in the refrigerator (although the amount of yeast used and how it is introduced into the dough making process will also be factors).  Also, if you want to have the dough last over a longer period, or if you haven't added any sugar to the dough to help extend the useful life of the dough (by continuing to feed the yeast over time), then having a lower temperature is better than having a higher temperature.  The lower temperature effectively puts the yeast in a form of mild sleep.  The chemical and biological activities will continue to take place and the flavor-enhancing byproducts will continue to be produced, albeit at a slower rate.  

Also, as you may have noted from Giotto and others, they prefer that the dough they use for certain styles of pizzas (e.g., NY style) not rise much if at all while in the refrigerator, and perhaps stay in a state of semi-sleep for up to 3 days or more, so it becomes important to them to keep the dough temperature down while in the refrigerator.  Ordinary refrigerators in a home setting under normal load conditions have a temperature in the main compartment of about 50 degrees F., which, from what I have read, is about 10-15 degrees F higher than professional coolers.  In a practical setting, the differential may even be higher if the refrigerator door is opened many times over the course of the day.  (Professionals like to make their dough balls in the evening if they can when the workers are not going into the cooler all the time.)  The notion of using a metal container as you and Giotto have done to hold the dough while it is in the refrigerator is just a simple way of cooling the temperature of the dough down a bit faster because the metal conducts the heat away from the dough.  I don't know how effective that is, but that is the theory, and there are adherents to that theory.  I think the effects on the final product are more likely to be time related than anything else, that is, lower temperature helps extend the useful life of the dough, and along with it, result in more byproducts of fermentation.  

As for the water temperature I used that got me a finished dough temperature of 84 degrees F, it was around 68 degrees F for the particular day you have in mind, based on the factors that went into the calculation.  I use refrigerated bottled water, so that meant having to heat the water for about 15 seconds in the microwave.

Peter
Title: Re:Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: giotto on October 02, 2004, 10:16:35 PM
Pete-zza:

Good stuff.  Consistency is important to me because I don't like spending a day or two waiting for a few doughs that don't turn out okay-- the crust accounts for much of the enjoyment of the pizza.  Like you said, it's something you can count on with the pros.  I drop an ice cube or two in room temp bottled water to cool it down when making the dough.  I test the temp mid-way through the mixing intervals before I hand knead to ensure around 80F.  My compartment where I keep the dough is around 41 F.

I also noticed that Lehman suggested to cross stack initially during refrigeration in a session.  This made a lot of sense to me because I had noticed that certain pro doughs seemed to be dryer than usual, without flaking.  It has worked out quite nicely for me. I like the dough to be nearly dry to the touch, without flaking (just a personal preference for tossing, etc.). I attain this by leaving the lid loose on the thin stainless steel bowl for the first 45 or so minutes in the refrigerator compartment and even drop a little bit of weight (close to .15 oz per 17 oz dough).  I then place it in a simple clear produce bag in the same compartment for a couple of days and don't lose any more weight.
Title: Re:Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: canadave on October 03, 2004, 12:52:59 AM
Ahhh, interesting.  I've found that when I remove the dough from my metal cookie tin, it's really wet and moist.  I'd rather it be drier.  I wonder how it'll work out if I leave the tin lid off for 45 minutes in the fridge, and then put the dough into a plastic grocery bag *inside* the cookie tin for the next 23 hours, like giotto says?  Hmmmmm :)

Dave
Title: Re:Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 04, 2004, 11:05:46 PM
Today, I made yet another pizza based on Tom L.'s NY style pizza dough recipe.  This time, I decided to use a hydration level of 60 percent, and to use an amount of yeast (IDY) at the upper end of the range called for in the recipe.  It may be recalled that in prior efforts I used hydration percents at the lower and upper ends of the range (58% and 65%, respectively), and yeast levels at the lower end of the range (about 1/8 t. IDY) and far outside of the range (about 1 1/2 t. IDY).  

For today's effort, I intentionally decided to make a dough ball weighing 21 ounces.  I chose that size since it is enough to make a single 16-inch size pizza or, if desired, two 12-inch pizzas.  It also provides some flexibility in terms of allowing use of screens (especially for the 16-inch size pizza) and pizza stones or tiles (mainly for the 12-inch size pizzas).

Using the baker's percents stated in Tom's recipe, I selected the following ingredients and quantities for today's effort:

   12.90 oz. high-gluten (KASL) flour (about 2 3/4 c)
   7.80 oz. water, at 60% hydration (about 1 c.)
   0.23 oz. salt (about 1 1/4 t.)
   0.13 oz. olive oil (light) (about 7/8 t.)
   0.03 oz. IDY (a bit less than 3/8 t.)

As noted in a prior post, Tom's recipe makes the use of sugar in the dough optional, depending primarily on the mode of baking.  For example, for a pizza baked on a screen, where the risk of premature browning of the bottom crust is less than on a preheated stone or tiles, a small amount of sugar (1-2% by weight of flour) might be used.  For a pizza baked directly on a preheated stone or tiles, where the risk of premature browning of the crust is higher, the sugar might be omitted.

In preparing the dough, I tried to incorporate Tom's suggestions, as well as some of Giotto's techniques.  I started by putting the water and salt in the bowl of a stand mixer, stirring them to dissolve some of the salt.  The temperature of the water had been established to achieve a finished dough temperature of 80 degrees F.  I then combined the flour and yeast and gradually added them to the bowl, stirring initially with a spoon to start the process of incorporating the flour.  With the dough hook attached and using only the #1 speed setting of my stand mixer, I added the rest of the flour and kneaded the dough for about 2 minutes, or until all of the flour had been taken up into the dough.  I then added the olive oil and continued kneading until it was taken up into the dough (because of the small volume of dough, I had to stop the machine for a few seconds to do some hand kneading to expedite the absorption of the oil).  After the oil had been incorporated, I continued with the kneading of the dough, for about another minute or two, also at the #1 speed setting, until the dough ball was smooth and satiny without any tears on the outside skin of the dough.   I finished by about 30 seconds of hand kneading, mostly to shape the dough into a nice round dough ball.  I did not perform the windowpane test, although I am fairly confident, based on past experience, that the dough ball would have passed the test.   The finished dough temperature was 81 degrees F, and its weight was just about 21 ounces, as planned.

Once the dough ball was prepared, I lightly oiled it and put it into a metal tin with its cover loosely fitted over the top, to allow the dough to dry a bit and not develop moisture.  Within an hour, the temperature of the dough dropped from 81 degrees F to about 66 degrees F.  I then transferred the dough ball to a plastic bag and sealed it.  From time to time I checked the temperature of the dough, and observed that it was continuing its temperature decline.  I also observed that the dough was rising, albeit very slowly.   As I did this, I recalled the wisdom of Yogi Berra, who said that you can observe a lot by just watching.  By morning, the dough had stabilized at about 52 degress F, the typical temperature in the main compartment of my refrigerator, and had risen by about 30-40%.  

Later in the day, exactly 24 hours after the dough had been placed in the refrigerator, I removed the dough from the plastic bag, placed it on my counter, dusted it lightly with a little flour so as not to form a skin, and covered it with a cloth.  As with my prior efforts, I let the dough warm up at room temperature for about 2 hours.  It was then shaped, dressed and baked.   The dough handled without any problems, although it was not quite as elastic as some other doughs I have made, so I decided not to toss it into the air after a few initial twirls.  

I formed and dressed the dough on a 16-inch screen.  I intentionally made the rim of the pizza round smaller than usual so that it wouldn't puff up into a monster during baking, as happened with my prior efforts.  The toppings were pretty much the standard fare for a pepperoni pizza. The pizza was baked on the screen for about 5 minutes, after which I slid the pizza onto a pizza stone for about 2 minutes to crisp up and brown the bottom of the crust.  The pizza stone had been preheated for about an hour at 500-550 degrees F, the highest temperature possible with my oven.

The pizza tasted very good.  As I expected, the rim was smaller yet it was relatively airy and llght.  It was a little bit more chewy than prior efforts, where the rims were soft, pillowy and light.  Also, because I had made the rim smaller to begin with, the rest of the crust was thicker than usual, and also light.  This led me to conclude that the recipe is versatile enough to do pretty much what you want to do with it in terms of and shaping and sizing the dough to achieve certain crust characteristics.  As between using 58%, 65% or 60% hydration, I feel that the higher hydration is more likely to produce a more extensible dough (and not especially elastic) and a more airy and open crumb than a lower hydration.  The large, irregular-shaped holes are particularly noticeable when you shape the dough to have a large rim.  As for the amount of yeast used, I think the recipe will work both at low levels (e.g., 1/4 t. IDY) and at higher levels (e.g. up to 1 1/2 t. IDY).  The dough will rise faster, of course, at the higher levels, but the finished product will still be very good.   Ultimately, it will be the result of taste tests that will lead one to decide in favor of one set of parameters over another.  There may be other aspects of the recipe that can be experimented with in future efforts, but the specific recipe stated above will serve as a good benchmark from which to conduct further experimentation.  

The photo shown below highlights the results of today's experiment, as do the slice photos in following posts.

Peter

Title: Re:Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 04, 2004, 11:17:02 PM
And a Lehmann (60% hydration) slice.

Peter
Title: Re:Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 04, 2004, 11:20:44 PM
And yet another Lehmann (60% hydration) slice, showing one of the two large bubbles, in cross-section, that formed in the crust (I did no docking).

Peter
Title: Re:Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: canadave on October 05, 2004, 12:36:23 AM
Now THAT looks EXACTLY like a NY pizza.  Obviously I can't vouch for the taste, but on looks alone, you've pretty much got it (except now you've got *no* rim on the outer edge....you need to be somewhere in between "no rim" and "mountainous rim" ;) )  Other than that, though, it looks perfect and authentic.

Dave
Title: Re:Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 05, 2004, 07:48:10 AM
Thanks, Canadave, for the vote of authenticity from a former New Yorker ;D.   Once the dough is right and you use your favorite high quality toppings, you can't help but get a great tasting pizza.

As I have mentioned before, I don't normally "form" or shape a rim on my pizza doughs.  I just grab the dough an inch or two from the edge when I am starting to shape the dough and try not to get any closer to the edge to disturb the rim.  That automatically forms the rim.  For the most recent pizza, I wanted to see if I could reduce the size of the rim from what I used in my prior efforts.  Getting a rim in between the two sizes shouldn't be a problem.  

Peter
Title: Re:Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Foccaciaman on October 05, 2004, 12:15:17 PM
Pete-zza:

I keep forgetting to ask what salt you are using in your recipe as the amounts vary for table and kosher salt?

I could try and weigh the salt, but at that amount I do not fully trust my digital scale.

Come to think of it, I wonder how many home cooks recipes are altered by following the recipe using the lighter kosher salt as opposed to fine ground table salt.
I generally only use Kosher salt for cooking and Coarse Ground Sea Salt for table seasoning, I rarely use table salt at all anymore for any reason.

I am also interested in what everyone else is using in their doughs.
Title: Re:Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: canadave on October 05, 2004, 01:25:43 PM
Oh, I forgot to mention that a TRUE New York pizza is 18", not 16" ;)  But of course, that usually can't be helped for us home oven people.

Say, one other point that just occurred to me when Foccaciaman mentioned the digital scale in his previous post.  I wonder now, when pizzerias make their own dough, how closely they measure their ingredients?  I somehow can't picture the guys at Lombardi's using a scale to precisely measure their ingredients.  Does that mean that the precision we're striving for here is unnecessary in terms of making consistent dough?  I know there's issues of scale--it's not as important to be a little off when measuring out professional quantities, in contrast to when we're making two dough balls at home.  But I'm wondering just how much the precision is necessary even for our purposes.

Dave
Title: Re:Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 05, 2004, 01:50:20 PM
Foccaciaman,

In the Lehmann dough recipes, I have been using either table salt or a fine sea salt which I compared on my digital scale on a volume to volume basis and found to weigh about the same.  I have Kosher salt on hand, but I only tend to use it when a recipe calls for it.  I also have some fancy coarse sea salt on hand but I haven't tried using it in dough recipes because of its large particle size (which may be good as a condiment at the table but not for doughs) and because I don't have an easy way to determine how much to use as a substitute for other salts.  If I did use if for doughs, I would first grind it to a considerably smaller particle size.

When recipes (including the Lehmann dough recipe) call for salt by weight, for example, in ounces, I have been using the weight-to-volume conversion data that Steve and others posted in the past, based on their having weighed cup-sized amounts of ingredients used in dough recipes in small quantities not easily measured on most home scales.  I have used similar conversion data for yeast (ADY), sugar and olive oil.   I came up with similar conversion data for IDY recently (1 cup IDY = 5.10 oz. and 1 t. IDY = 0.10625 oz.)   In most cases, you will end up with oddball volume measurements and have to round up or down to the nearest size measuring spoon you have--destroying all the calculations you made to get precise and accurate measurements ;D.  

As for your comments about people using Kosher salt in recipes in lieu of table salt, you may be interested in knowing that some salt producers, such as Morton's, suggest using the two salts interchangeably on a volume for volume basis.  For example, when I looked at the box of Morton's coarse Kosher salt, I saw a Usage Tip, which says: "As a general rule you can also use MORTON Coarse Kosher Salt in your favorite recipes as you would MORTON Table Salt and MORTON Canning and Pickling Salt....teaspoon for teaspoon or cup for cup".  I don't personally follow that tip; instead, I do the math to calculate the conversion amounts going from regular salt to Kosher or vice versa.  (To convert regular salt in a recipe to Kosher salt, I use 1 1/2 to 2 times as much Kosher salt as table salt, by volume.)

Peter
Title: Re:Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Foccaciaman on October 05, 2004, 02:27:31 PM
I think that one of the reasons I mentioned the salt issue was that I remember reading something (PR's American Pie I think) about using a larger amount of salt if using Kosher.
I could have sworn that it was almost double the amount of table salt. This amount seem a little extreme to say the least.  However it is easy to see that Mortons Kosher and Table salts could not possibly have the same weight at the same volume.

Whether this actually makes a considerable difference in the actual cooking I am sure Mortons has surely tested.  But to say that they are interchangable in terms of recipes makes me truly wonder how much a difference the amount of salt may play in the recipe other than taste.
Title: Re:Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 05, 2004, 03:32:37 PM
Canadave,

A while back, in connection with my experimentation with Tom L.'s NY style recipe, I did some research at the PMQ site on what is a typical size and dough weight for a NY style pizza.  I found 16-18 inches to be quite typical and a dough ball weight of anything from 20-24 ounces, which is why I settled on 16 inches and 20-21 ounces for most of the Lehmann experiments.   When I was looking into buying pizza screens, I thought of getting an 18-inch screen but discovered that it wouldn't fit within my oven with the door closed.  I could have gotten a 17-inch screen, but that seemed such an odd size.  In any event, I have found that I can almost make it to 17 inches on my 16-inch screen by letting the dough hang over the edge ot the 16-inch screen a bit.  Once the pizza hits the hot oven, the dough starts to firm up pretty quickly.  I guess that's as close as I will be able to come to the size of a TRUE New York style pizza--unless, of course, I invent an "accordian" pizza :)

As for your question about industry practices, I am not an expert in that area and can only report on what I have read.  But I suspect that if you went into the baking rooms of many pizzerias, and especially the mom and pop places, you would find just about every imaginable dough management practice under the sun.  Some would use baker's percents and weigh everything, and some will use volumetric measurement for just about everything but the flour, which they perhaps assume weighs what the bag says it does.  But even a 50-pound bag of flour doesn't necessarily weigh exactly 50 pounds.  At the mills, the bags are filled so quickly with sifted flour that the actual flour weight of a 50-pound bag can vary as much as 6-8 ounces either way.  Professionals learn how to adjust for the weight discrepancies (for example, you could weigh the filled bag and subtract the known weight of the empty bag, to get a net weight).  There will also be some occasional flour loss, as when a 50-pound bag is put into a 60-quart Hobart and some of the flour is tossed out of the mixer during the initial mixing (which can be minimized by not introducing the entire bag of flour into the mixer all at once).  From what I have read, the best practice for professionals is to weigh everything, using "bench scales" that can weigh ingredients of up to 60-100 pounds, and other scales that can be used to weigh lighter weight ingredients such as yeast, salt and sugar.  Getting the right weights of everything, and especially yeast, seems to be a crucial step in achieving sound dough management.

Even at the prep table, it is important to scale the dough to get uniform ball sizes and weights. Otherwise, the results will be unpredictable, in an environment where reproducibility of results is crucial. And the weight management practice extends to the preparation of the pizzas from the dough balls themselves.  To be successful and make a profit, it seems to me that you had better learn how to use portion control for everything from the tomato sauce, the cheese and all the other toppings.  A heavy hand, and especially for costly toppings like cheeses, could cost you your profit.  

Steve once said in a posting: "My biggest peeve is unreproducible results.  I am a stickler for exact measurements and procedures."   I feel exactly the same way.  To me, percentages are percentages and it shouldn't really matter whether you are talking about 50 pounds of flour or one pound of flour or 10 ounces of yeast or 0.20 ounces of yeast. Otherwise, you are just guessing about amounts and their relative proportions.  Then our recipes become just like the ones we always complain about.  I do admit that it gets a little bit dicey when you are measuring minute quantities of things like yeast, salt, oil and sugar, and, as indicated in my last posting, the accuracy and precision can be thrown out the window when you try to get the right size measuring spoon to use, but that's the best available to us under the circumstances unless you have a very expensive scale that can measure minute quantities of things. Even then, Tom L. says that a breeze can come along and throw off your readings.  We just do the best we can ;D

Peter
Title: Re:Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 07, 2004, 02:00:44 PM
In view of the many variations possible using Tom Lehmann's NY style dough recipe, I thought it might be useful to explain to readers how to design their own Tom Lehmann NY style pizzas. By "design", I mean to determine what weight of dough ball you will need to produce a Tom Lehmann NY style pizza of any desired size and thickness and to determine how much of each ingredient you will need to produce that particular weight of dough. The benefit of doing this is to produce only what you will need for the pizza you want, and not finding yourself with leftover dough or having miscalculated and produced less dough than what you really needed or wanted.

Assume, for example, that you would like to make a 14-inch New York style, thin-crust dough based on Tom L.'s recipe, and that you have elected to use a 62% hydration percentage (roughly in the middle of the range recited in the recipe) and instant yeast at the high end of the range recited in the recipe.

The first thing you will need to do is to calculate the weight of dough ball you will need to produce the 14-inch, thin, pizza. This is done using this expression, which has appeared many times at this site:

                W = Pi (i.e., 3.14) x R x R x TF,

where R is the radius of the pizza (in our example, 14/2 = 7 inches) and TF is the thickness factor, having a value of 0.10 for a thin pizza.   So, for the 14-inch pizza, you will need 3.14 x 7 x 7 x 0.10, or 15.386 ounces of dough. If you would prefer a thicker pizza, or because you deem a New York style pizza to be a "medium" thickness pizza rather than thin, that is not a problem. You would just use 0.11 or something approximating that as the thickness factor. I chose 0.10 for my example because Tom L. himself, in the recipe, characterizes the NY style pizza as being "thin". (All of the thickness factors I reference come from PMQ.)

The next step is to determine how much of each dough ingredient you will need to produce the dough ball weighing 15.386 ounces (don't worry about the several places after the decimal point, since we will round out later). To do this, you will need the baker's percents. In our case, Tom L. has made the task easy for us by providing the specific baker's percents for his recipe. They are as follows:

      Flour (high-gluten), 100%
      Water, 58-65%
      Salt, 1.75%
      Oil, 1.0%
      Yeast, 0.50-0.75% for compressed yeast; 0.25-0.375%
           for active dry yeast (ADY): and 0.17-0.25% for
           instant dry yeast (IDY) (Note: the ADY and IDY
           quantities are 1/2 and 1/3 of the compressed
           yeast, by weight)

Using the above baker's percents, we can now start to calculate the weights of ingredients we will need for our 15.386 ounce dough ball, beginning with the flour. To do this, all that is necessary is to add up all the percentages for all of the ingredients--including the specific hydration percentage we have chosen in our example, 62%, and the specific percentage of IDY we have chosen, 0.25% (the upper limit of the IDY range). So, this summation yields: 100% (flour) + 62% (the selected hydration percentage) + 1.75% (salt) + 1.0% (oil) + 0.25% (the selected amount of IDY), or 165. We then divide this number by 100 (to simply the calculations) and divide the result, that is, 1.65. into the dough ball weight, 15.386 ounces, we calculated above. This gives us about 9.33 ounces (15.386/1.65) as the weight of flour we will need for the 15.386 ounce dough ball. This can be rounded out to 9.35 ounces.  

To calculate the weights of the remaining ingredients for our hypothetical recipe, we use the 9.35 ounce number and multiply it by the individual percentages for the remaining ingredients. This is where the % key on the calculator comes in handy, although if you are careful with your entries, you don't need to have or use the % key. Multiplying 9.35 by the individual percentages yields--with appropriate rounding--the following recipe amounts:

      Flour (high-gluten), 9.35 oz.
      Water (at 62%), 5.80 oz.
      Salt, 0.16 oz.
      Oil, 0.09 oz.
      Yeast (at 0.25% IDY), 0.023 oz.

Note that if you add up all the weights as noted above, the total will come to about 15.4 oz., or just about equal to the weight we calculated using the above expression (it will be exact if the weights are carried out to several decimal places.) This is a good cross check on the math, to be sure that you haven't made any errors.  It's easy enough to do when you are working out to several decimal places (and I hope I haven't made any such errors here in this post :)).

For those with decent scales, the flour and water usually pose no problem to weigh. However, for the salt, oil and yeast, which would require an expensive scale to weigh because of their very small quantities, it is easier in a home setting to use conversion data to convert from weight to volume. Steve and others at this forum have developed this conversion data previously for salt, oil and ADY (and other dough ingredients), by weighing cup-sized quantities and converting to teaspoons, and I recently did the same for IDY. This is basically the last step in the process of finalizing your recipe for the dough ball you "designed". These are the conversion factors you will need (I have also included the conversion factor for sugar  which, as indicated in previous posts in this thread, is optional in Tom L.'s recipe):

   1 t. salt = 0.196875 oz.
   1 t. oil = 0.1645833 oz.
   1 t. ADY = 0.133333 oz.
   1 t. IDY = 0.10625 oz.
   1 t. sugar = 0.140625 oz.

To use the above conversion data, all that is necessary is to divide the weight of the salt, oil and IDY in the above recipe by the respective weights listed in the conversion table. So, for example, to convert the 0.16 ounces of salt in the recipe for our hypothetical dough ball to a volume measurement, divide 0.16 by 0.196875, which comes to roughly 0.80 t., or slightly more than 3/4 t. Doing this for all the ingredients gives us the final recipe:

    Flour (high-gluten), 9.35 oz. (about 2 3/8 c.)
    Water (62% hydration), 5.8 oz. (about 3/4 c.)
    Salt, 0. 80 t., or a little bit over 3/4 t.
    Oil, 0.57 t., or about 1/2 to 5/8 t.
    Yeast (0.25% IDY), 0.22 t., or slightly less than 1/4 t.

And, that's it :). With a little practice, the above exercise will become second nature and make you wish that all recipes were stated in baker's percents. And it will bring the scientist out in you. Build it and they will come ;D.

Note that Tom L.'s recipe can be modified in any way desired to produce any size or thickness of dough with any desired hydration percentage (within the specified range) and with any type of yeast (within the respective specified ranges). It will be necessary, of course, to add up all the percentages, as described above, to arrive at the number that will be used as the divisor to divide into the calculated dough ball weight. Since ADY is preferred by some bakers, I have included the conversion data (weight to volume) in the above conversion table. As a final example--just to show how easy it is to make changes to Tom L.'s recipe to suit individual circumstances--if one wanted to make a dough ball with a hydration percentage of 60% and use ADY at 0.30%, the summation would be 100% (flour) + 60% (water) + 1.75% (salt) + 1.0% (oil) + 0.30% (ADY) = 163.05.  Dividing this number by 100 gives us 1.6305, and the amount of flour needed in this example would be 15.386/1.6305, or 9.44 ounces, or roughly 9.45 ounces. The weights of the rest of the ingredients would be determined in the same manner as described above.  (Note: When using ADY, I usually proof in about 1 T. of warm water, leaving the rest of the water available for temperature adjustment in order to achieve a finished dough temperature of about 80 degrees F.  I subtract the 1 T. of water from the total.)

I hope that this "tutorial", which can be used for any dough recipe specified in baker's percents, helps those who care to become pizza "designers" :).

Peter



 
  

Title: Re:Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: DKM on October 07, 2004, 07:27:30 PM
I still think you spend WAY too much time watching Alton Brown.  ;)

Good information though!  :)

Thanks your all your work and typing.

DKM

(who can't believe this is his 800th post)
Title: Re:Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 07, 2004, 08:48:46 PM
Today I made another pizza based on Tom L.'s New York style dough recipe, but with three major departures from my prior experiments with the recipe.  Before getting to the changes, I will first mention that I "designed" the dough to produce a 14-inch pizza.  The ingredients and percentages for making the dough were exactly as I detailed in the example I gave in the previous post.  For recapitulation purposes, the recipe I followed was as follows:

    Flour (high-gluten, Giusto), 9.35 oz. (about 2 3/8 c.)
    Water (62% hydration), 5.8 oz. (about 3/4 c.)
    Salt, 0. 80 t., or a little bit over 3/4 t.
    Oil, 0.57 t., or about 1/2 to 5/8 t.
    Yeast (0.25% IDY), 0.22 t., or slightly less than 1/4 t.

The first departure I made from my prior efforts was to use the Giusto High Performer flour, a high-protein flour with about 14% protein + or - 0.05% (according to the spec sheet).  I had intended to use the KA Sir Lancelot flour but the decision to use the Giusto flour was made for me when I discovered that I had just about run out of the KASL.    

The second departure from my prior efforts was to use an autolyse.  Technically, an autolyse is a period of rest for a dough that is made by combining flour, water and yeast (if the rest period is short)--and no salt.  The salt is left out because it is hygroscopic (it absorbs water) and interferes with the process of hydration (absorption of water) by the starch and gluten in the flour and also impairs action of the yeast, as is well known.  The net effect is that during the autolyse the dough has a chance to recover from the stress of the initial kneading, making the dough easier to handle and shape and resulting in a more porous interior.  It also cuts down on the mixing times and, consequently, minimizes oxidation of the dough, which has the effect of mixing out color and flavor (according to Peter Reinhart, it destroys vitamins such as beta carotene.)  The use of autolyse is an old baker's trick and is not as common with pizza dough as it is with bread dough, but I have used it many times before, and I note that others on this forum, including Giotto, have also used it before or a variation of it.  (Peter Reinhart also uses a variation in his NY style pizza dough recipe.)

The third departure was to use a food processor for all the mixing and kneading, using a 14-cup Cuisinart processor fitted with a plastic blade.  One of the problems with kneading a small amount of dough in a stand mixer is that it is difficult to get the mixer to do a thorough job of kneading without stopping the machine from time to time to reorient the dough relative to the paddle or dough hook or to do some hand kneading to expedite the kneading process. The food processor does not have this problem.  However, the food processor has the problem of contributing considerably more frictional heat to the dough than a stand mixer--as much as 30 degrees F as compared with about 3-5 degrees F for a home stand mixer operated at low to medium speed.  In my case, this meant having to use cold water to compensate for the fricitional heat of the food processor to achieve a finished dough temperature of aroung 80-85 degrees F as called for in Tom L.'s recipe.  Based on the temperatures that prevailed at my place today, this meant having to use a water temperature of 46 degrees F.

To prepare the dough in the food processor, I first combined the flour and IDY in the bowl of the processor.  Using the pulse feature, I then added the water to the bowl of the processor and pulsed the machine until all of the flour had been taken up by the dough.  I then covered the bowl for 10 minutes, as an autolyse.  After the 10 minutes had passed, I examined the dough and took its temperature.  The dough was very soft and malleable and had a temperature of about 78 degrees F.  I then added the oil and kneaded that into the dough, again using the pulse feature.  This was followed by adding the salt and pulsing that into the dough also.  This was followed by running the machine at full speed ("on") for about 20 seconds.  Although I didn't perform a windowpane test, the dough was smooth and silky with no tears on the outer skin.  The finished dough temperature was 83 degrees F.  So, as you can see, it doesn't take much to run up the dough temperature in a food processor, even when the plastic blade is used.  It takes far less than a minute.  But, so long as you can minimize buildup of heat in the dough, as by using the pulse feature as much as possible, you will get a dough that is as good as, if not better, than what you will get in a stand mixer for the same amount of dough.  

Once the dough was prepared, I lightly coated it with olive oil, put it into a metal cookie tin with the cover on loosely (in order to allow the dough to dry out a bit), and placed the tin in the refrigeraror.  An hour later, I removed the dough from the tin (its temperature had dropped from 83 degrees F to 64 degrees F by this time), placed the dough within a plastic bread bag and returned it to the cookie tin.  I tightly secured the cover to the tin, and placed the tin back into the refrigerator.   Exactly 24 hours later, I removed the dough from the refrigerator (the dough was at a temperature of 56 degrees F), and brought it out to room temperature in preparation for shaping, dressing and baking.  About 1 1/2 hours later, I started to shape the dough.  It was softer and less dense than the dough I have been making with the KASL flour, but it was equally extensible and handled easily.  I shaped it into a 14-inch round on a peel, dressed it, and baked it for about 7 minutes on a pizza stone that had been preheated for 1 hour at 500-550 degrees F.  

Having tired of pepperoni pizzas, I dressed today's pizza with a mixture of 6-in-1 and San Marzano tomatoes, sliced mushrooms sauteed in butter, pre-cooked sweet Italian sausage (removed from its casing), sweet diced red peppers, shredded Fontina cheese, provolone cheese, fresh oregano, dried sage, a small amount of fresh rosemary, and olive oil.  The crust of the finished pizza was properly browned and exemplary of the classical NY style pizza.  It was softer, however, than the crusts made using the KASL and lacking an autolyse.  Whether the differences were attributable to the autolyse or the different flour will have to await another day when I have had a chance to repeat the recipe again with the KASL flour I normally use.   But I couldn't complain about today's pizza.  With a glass of red wine, it hit the spot.  The photo below, and in the next post, depict today's pizza.

Peter



Title: Re:Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 07, 2004, 08:51:21 PM
And a Lehmann slice (with autolyse and Giusto flour).

Peter
Title: Re:Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 07, 2004, 09:00:22 PM
DKM,

It might come as a surprise to you to know that I hardly ever watch Alton Brown, although I did see the segment on pizza ;D.  Most of what I have said on this thread is vintage Tom Lehmann--I hope :).  But thanks anyway.

Peter

Title: Re:Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: DKM on October 08, 2004, 01:49:12 PM
Well I'm the type does a little math and a lot of play

DKM
Title: Re:Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 08, 2004, 02:49:18 PM
DKM,

There's no doubt that your approach works, and is likely to lead to more innovation than a more scientific approach--as evidenced by your successful deep-dish dough recipe.  I recall when I was trying to adapt your recipe (with dough weighing 36 ounces) to my dinky pans that when I did the math to figure out what I would need, I concluded that your dough recipe used around 19 percent oil.  That was considerably higher than any deep-dish dough recipe I could ever recall, and figured that I had made a math error in arriving at the 19 percent figure.  I could recall 8 or 9 percent for deep dish, but not 19 percent.  When I re-did the math, I saw that I hadn't made an error.  However, I was happy that I was able to figure out how much dough to use for my situation.  Otherwise, I might have passed on trying your recipe altogether, or waited for a time to make a pizza using the full 36 ounces of dough or getting a big enough deep-dish pan to use the full amount of dough.  I'm glad I went ahead with downsizing your recipe, since I enjoyed the pizza very much.  

In a similar vein, I recently bought some dark, heavy-duty 9"x2" deep baking pans at a very good price to use for deep-dish pizza purposes.  The first thing I did when I got home was to take the baker's percents for your deep-dish dough recipe and calculate how much dough I would need to make your recipe in the new pans.  

With Tom L.'s NY style dough recipe, I have been trying to stay reasonably close to the recipe with the objective of trying to show others how to adapt the recipe to their particular circumstances and needs, just as I did when I scaled down your deep-dish recipe for my own use.  If I am lucky, I might get someone to try Tom's recipe who otherwise wouldn't have because of the commercial nature of the recipe or because they are mystified by baker's percents.  The math is a manipulation tool only.  It doesn't show you how to be innovative or creative.  

Peter
Title: Re:Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: canadave on October 09, 2004, 10:34:34 AM
Peter,

In your calculations you speak of a TF thickness factor.  In your example, you mention that you used a TF of 0.10.  

Is that a measurement in inches of the desired height of the pizza?  Or some other measurement?  Or just a number, like the cosmological constant? ;)

Dave
Title: Re:Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 09, 2004, 10:53:40 AM
Canadave,

TF is just a number.  The expression (3.14 x R x R) gives the square inches of the pizza surface, and TF takes care of the thickness.  Somewhere along the way, most likely through trial and error or experimentation, someone decided that a thin pizza should have a TF of 0.10.  The TF for a medium thickness pizza is 0.11, and for a thick pizza it is 0.12.  I found these values at the PMQ site, in articles by Tom L. and Big Dave.  

I will be out for most of the day, but I will show you in another post how you can work backwards from a pizza size you like to get the TF factor that might work better for you.

Peter
Title: Re:Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: canadave on October 09, 2004, 01:27:50 PM
Wow....a cosmological pizza constant! :)  Cool.  Thanks for explaining that.....I think a normal NY-style pizza would be about a 0.105--midway between 0.10 and 0.11.  

Dave
Title: Re:Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: DKM on October 09, 2004, 03:14:48 PM
When I did the math to figure out what I would need, I concluded that your dough recipe used around 19 percent oil.  That was considerably higher than any deep-dish dough recipe I could ever recall, and figured that I had made a math error in arriving at the 19 percent figure.  I could recall 8 or 9 percent for deep dish, but not 19 percent ???.

A couple of people have made that comment which I find strange, because my recipe is a blend and adjustment of two others both with around 20% fat.

DKM
Title: Re:Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Foccaciaman on October 09, 2004, 07:21:47 PM
Fat Shmat, ya want healthy

Eat Beansprouts

You want taste

You need Fat.

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re:Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: DKM on October 09, 2004, 08:47:40 PM
If people knew that amount of fat that is in most restaurant recipes (I'm talking all types, not just pizza) most would have a heart attack just from hearing it.

DKM
Title: Re:Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 10, 2004, 12:42:51 AM
Canadave,

As I mentioned previously, the equation W = Pi (i.e., 3.14) x R x R x TF can be used to calculate the dough weight for a desired size (diameter) and thickness of pizza.  The same equation can also be used--with a simple manipulation--for dough scaling purposes based on actual experience.  Assume, for example, that you determined through the process of experimentation or trial and error that the ideal, or "perfect" dough ball weight (from your perspective) for a 14-inch pizza is 16 ounces.  Using the expression (3.14 x R x R), where R is equal to 7, the surface area of the pizza would be calculated to be 153.86 square inches (3.14 x 7 x 7).  A value for the thickness factor TF based on the 14-inch size pizza would then be calculated by dividing 16 by 153.86, or 0.1039906.  That would become your "personal" TF number.  (Mathematically, TF = W/(3.14 x R x R)).

That same TF could then be used for other size pizzas for scaling purposes, using the expression for W given above.   For example, to determine the dough ball weight for another size pizza, say, 12 inches, the corresponding value of the new dough ball weight would be calculated by multiplying the surface area of the 12-inch pizza, or 113.04 square inches (3.14 x 6 x 6), by 0.1039906 (your personal TF), or about 11.8 ounces.  To scale up to a larger size pizza, say, 16 inches, the amount of dough required would be calculated by multiplying the surface area of the 16-inch pizza, or 200.96 square inches (3.14 x 8 x8), by 0.1039906, or about 20.9 ounces.  The dough ball weight for any other size pizza, up or down in diameter, would be calculated in the same manner.  So, as you can see, you do not have to lock yourself into one of the three TF numbers I mentioned as being typical for the three different thicknesses--thin, medium, and thick.  Of course, to determine your own TF means having to weigh the dough balls you make and then finding what weight works best for you in terms of producing the "perfect" crust thickness relative to the size (diameter) of the pizzas you make.  

Peter
Title: Re:Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 10, 2004, 09:01:47 PM
I thought I would devote this posting today to address more fully the subject of autolyse in the context of making pizzas and pizza dough.  As reported in an earlier posting in this thread, I introduced an autolyse to Tom L.'s NY style pizza dough recipe as one of my several experiments with the recipe.  Autolyse (pronounced "otto-lease") is a fancy term for a simple concept--a period of rest for a dough as part of the overall process of forming and kneading a dough.  Its origins are principally in bread making (mainly artisanal breads) rather than the making of dough for pizzas.  In fact, I first became aware of the use and benefits of autolyse from making artisanal sourdough breads in accordance with the teachings of Nancy Silverton in her book "Breads from La Brea Bakery".  

In the strictest technical sense, autolyse is a period of rest for a dough made from mixing flour and water, and usually yeast--but not salt.  Sometimes the term has been used for doughs incorporating other ingredients also--such as sugar, oil and/or salt.  The term is even used on occasion--I suspect somewhat incorrectly--to describe the period of rest to which a dough is sometimes subjected to allow the gluten to relax more fully because the dough is overly elastic (with springback) and difficult to shape. Over time, the term autolyse has come to be used to describe almost any period of rest to which a dough is subjected.

The notion of using autolyse for bread making developed a following, especially among artisanal bread makers, because the autolyse allowed the starch and gluten in a dough to better absorb water (hydrate), it allowed gluten developed in the dough to relax more fully and provide greater softness in the dough, it reduced oxidation of the flour and thereby preserved color and flavor contributing vitamins (such as carotenoids), it reduced the overall kneading time, and resulted in a soft, more open crumb in the crust. Leaving the salt out of the dough during the autolyse minimized the potentially harmful effects of salt on the yeast (if incorporated into the dough) and thereby allowed somewhat greater volume expansion of the dough.

In looking at pizza dough recipes at this forum and elsewhere, I saw that autolyse, in pretty much all its forms and variations, has been incorporated in one fashion or another into many of the recipes I saw for making pizza doughs.  As previously mentioned, even Peter Reinhart, whose original work with doughs came out of bread making more so than pizza dough making, is also an advocate of using rest periods in the course of making pizza doughs (including for his NY style pizza dough in his book "American Pie").  

All of this begs the question of whether there is a legitimate role for autolyse or other forms of rest periods in pizza dough making.  To be sure, the concept of autolyse does not appear to be generally endorsed by the commercial pizza industry.  In fact, when I did a search of the term "autolyse" at the PMQ forum, I came up with exactly 0 hits.  Combining that term with "pizza" or "pizza dough" at Google, got me 33 hits and 9 hits, respectively, and many of those were not directly on point and none was in the context of practices employed by the commercial pizza industry.  Tom L. himself has on many occasions stated that bread making is not the same as pizza making.  All of this leads me to believe that the general pizza industry does not see sufficient value to using autolyse in their practices, or the use of autolyse has gone generally unreported, or the current practices followed by pizza professionals do not lend themselves well to incorporating autolyse into their processes, even if the perceived benefits of autolyse are understood and appreciated.  In a home environment, introducing rest periods is easy to do.  For a stand mixer or a food processor, all that is necessary is to stop the machine for several minutes (5-20 minutes is typical) during the process of kneading and let the dough rest.  It may be a little bit more difficult to program rest periods (autolyse or otherwise) into a bread making machine, but it can be done.  Autolyse and other forms of rest periods can also be introduced into a hand-kneaded dough.  

None of this is to suggest that everyone immediately incorporate autolyse into their pizza dough recipes. My experience with autolyse is that it does produce a somewhat surprisingly soft and malleable dough and contributes to a more open and porous crumb, and for those who like that characteristic in a crust, whether for a NY style pizza or any other style pizza, incorporating an autolyse or other rest period(s) into the dough making process may be a useful tool for the home pizza maker.  As with any tool, the user will have to do some experimenting to determine its potential value.

Peter

 
Title: Re:Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: stock on October 11, 2004, 12:10:27 AM
pete: this is perhaps a dumb question, but when incorporating autolyse into your dough making, do you knead for, say ~5 minutes, and then let it rest awhile, and then throw the salt in and knead it a little more?  the reason i ask is because i could see myself doing this in such a way that the salt doesn't get evenly mixed into the rest of the dough.
-scott
Title: Re:Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Foccaciaman on October 11, 2004, 12:57:14 AM
Good to hear from ya scott, I thought you had abandoned us. ;D ;D
Title: Re:Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: stock on October 11, 2004, 05:58:55 AM
Quote
Good to hear from ya scott, I thought you had abandoned us.

after i graduated i went to live with my grandparents for awhile, and i wasn't able to make pizzas there.  after escaping that place i then spent a bunch of time studying for the law school admissions test.  however, now i'm back home, done studying, and ready to make some pizza. :)
-scott
Title: Re:Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 11, 2004, 10:46:20 AM
Scott,

It's not a dumb question at all.  The most effective way of doing an autolyse (whether it is 5 minutes or something else) seems to be the way you suggested.   The autolyse is usually used at the beginning of the kneading process, after you have combined the flour and water (and, often, the yeast) and before adding the salt.  The concern you voice about incorporating the salt into an already-kneaded dough is a legitimate one.  In fact, you will note that once salt is added to a dough that has been subjected to a fair amount of kneading, the dough is very likely to tighten, develop tears, and become more difficult to knead and stretch. It's actually quite interesting to observe this phenomenon since it demonstrates how dough and salt aren't naturally compatible.  Anyone who has ever made bread dough by hand following this procedure will be intimately familiar with the difficulty of incorporating salt into an already-kneaded dough.  

However, once the salt has been completely worked into the dough, whether by machine (which will be faster) or by hand, the gluten in the dough become stronger, and the dough is thus capable of stretching farther without ripping.  At this stage, the salt will improve the texture and the elasticity of the dough, increase the dough's capacity to retain gasses (air and carbon dioxide) and, consequently, expand the volume of the dough.  It's just the short while when the salt is being worked uniformly into the dough that you will note how antagonistic the dough is to the salt.  In some respects, it is like trying to incorporate oil into an already-kneaded dough, which is a practice recommended by Tom L. (as opposed to mixing the oil in with the water, etc.)   It takes a minute or two for the oil and the already-kneaded dough to come together to form a smooth ball.  

Peter

Title: Re:Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Randy on October 11, 2004, 12:02:20 PM
I've tried autolyse for a couple of months but found I prefered Pizza without the delay.

Randy
Title: Re:Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 11, 2004, 02:08:22 PM
Randy,

Thus far, I have tended to use autolyse where I want a soft and open crumb, as with certain Neapolitan style crusts based on 00 flour or equivalent flour combinations.  With the NY style, I tend to prefer the thin, chewy, leathery crust, but once in a while I will use the autolyse even for the NY style just as a change of pace.  I notice that Peter Reinhart uses rest periods in all his dough recipes in American Pie.

Peter
Title: Re:Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pierre on October 11, 2004, 03:16:14 PM
Hi Scott, also glad to hear from you again.

Has LMU ever reported in again from his trip to Italy? Strange..... a few weeks ago I was wondering whether you 2 were still with us or not...

looking forward to your postings


Pierre
Title: Re:Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 12, 2004, 03:05:32 PM
Having recently experimented with stand mixer and food processor versions of Tom L.'s NY style pizza dough recipe, I thought it might be useful to try to develop a workable version of Tom's recipe for automatic bread making machines--for those who may have a bread maker but not a stand mixer or food processor. As regular readers of this forum may recall, I had previously attempted a bread machine version of a NY style dough (using Tom L.'s recipe) and reported on the results, along with a photo, at the Quality NY toppings thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,524.msg4871.html#msg4871 (Reply 57). My complaints at the time were that the dough rose too much, both in the machine and later in the refrigerator (because of excessive heat buildup in the dough), and that the finished crust was more breadlike than I liked. This time around, I tried to take steps to address some of these concerns.  

Before discussing the most recent bread machine experiment and the results, I think it might be useful to make some basic observations about the use of bread making machines to make pizza dough.  

First and foremost, the principal purpose of a bread making machine is to make bread dough, not pizza dough. What this means is that the pizza dough made in a bread machine will have more of the characteristics of a bread dough than a pizza dough and these characteristics will be reflected in the finished product. Tom L. frequently says that making bread dough is different from making pizza dough and I believe he is correct, and even more so when the pizza dough is made in a bread machine.  

Second, to be effective at making a pizza dough, the bread machine requires a minimum size dough ball. Otherwise, the dough can become impaled on one or the other of the two dough blades and just rotate without kneading, or bounce between the two dough blades, again without being kneaded or sufficiently kneaded. So, dough ball size is important to be sure that the dough ball you produce gets sufficient kneading.  

Third, it is difficult, without altering the dough making processes of the bread machine or using the programming cycle, to control the temperature of the finished dough. I have a Zojirushi machine, and if it is like other bread machines, it has a fixed-duration preheat cycle, during which it tries to stabilize the dough ingredients at a specified temperature (around 82 degrees F for my machine), and a fixed-duration knead cycle that follows the preheat cycle. Trying to control the finished dough temperature under those constraints, using the standard method of controlling the water temperature, becomes a hit or miss proposition at best (although I do have some suggestions for dealing with this concern, as will be noted below).  

Fourth, the knead cycle of bread machines can be quite long, more than what one would normally use for making a pizza dough. In my machine, it is about 13-14 minutes and can create a significant buildup of heat in the dough. In fact, when I calculated the temperature of water I would need to achieve a finished dough temperature of around 80-85 degrees F (the range called for in Tom L.'s recipe), I estimated that the amount of heat that my bread machine would produce due to friction would be about 15 degrees F--somewhere between a stand mixer and a food processor. As I later discovered after the dough was finished kneading, it was more like 40 degrees F. Where I miscalculated was underestimating the amount of heat that a 13-14 minute knead (continuous) can produce.  

In making the dough for the most recent experiment, I decided to use enough flour and other ingredients to produce a dough ball size of about 22 ounces which, for my bread machine, seems to be about the minimum that it can handle and produce a decent dough ball.  For the experiment, I also decided to use a thickness factor of 0.105, which places the dough thickness between thin and medium. I selected a hydration percentage of 60% and used instant dry yeast (IDY) at 0.25%. Following the calculation techniques reported in earlier postings in this thread, I came up with the following formulation:

     Flour, high-gluten (Giusto), 13.55 oz. (about 3 3/8 c.)
     Water (60% hydration), 8.15 oz. (about 1 c.)
     Salt, 1.21 t. (slightly less than 1 1/4 t.)
     Oil (olive, light), 0.82 t. (slightly more than 3/4 t.)
     IDY yeast (at 0.25%), 0.32 t. (approx. 1/3 t.)

To process the dough, using the basic dough cycle of my Zo machine, I put the ingredients into the bread pan in the manner specified by the instruction booklet, that is, water (at 63 degrees F, based on my initial calculation), flour, salt, oil, and yeast. During the approximately 20-minute preheat cycle, the ingredients were warmed, achieving a temperature, including the water, of about 80 degrees F. At the end of the preheat cycle, the knead cycle commenced, and continued for the next 13-14 minutes. The knead cycle produced a dough ball that was flawless. The dough ball was smooth and shiny without any tears on the outer surface, and there wasn't a speck of flour left in the baking pan. My only disappointment--a technical one only--was that the finished dough temperature was 88 degrees F. Working backward from this figure, I estimated that the proper frictional temperature factor I should have used for the experiment was around 40 degrees F, not the 15 degrees F figure I initially used. Using the 40 degrees F friction factor would have called for a water temperature of about 39 degrees F.  

Once the dough ball had been completely kneaded, I oiled it lightly, placed it in a loosely covered metal tin, and placed it in the refrigerator.  After an hour, I covered the tin tightly with the lid and returned the tin to the refrigerator. Exactly 24 hours after the dough had gone into the refrigerator, I brought the dough to room temperature where it stayed for 1 hour, at which time I shaped the dough into a 16-inch round on a 16-inch pizza screen. The dough was extensible and not overly elastic and handled very well. After dressing the pizza (with a basic marinara sauce, sliced mozzarella and provolone cheeses, and sliced sausage), the pizza was baked on the screen for about 5 minutes and for a final 2 minutes on a pizza stone that had been preheated at 500-550 degrees F for 1 hour. The finished product is shown in the photo below, and in a slice form in the next posting.

As I expected, the crust of the finished pizza had a breadlike character--reflecting the long knead cycle, which tends to produce a more dense crumb and a less airy texture. The crust was properly browned and had a leathery character typical of NY style crusts, although the bottom crust was a bit thicker than usual (because of the higher thickness factor selected). I had no problem with the taste of the pizza, although I believe that using a stand mixer or food processor does an overall better job than a bread machine, especially in being able to more carefully monitor and control the processing and the characteristics of the finished product.

Nonetheless, I believe that the pizza dough made with a bread machine can be improved further by taking the following possible steps. First, I would use ice cold water. Although all of the water could be put in the bread pan all at once, I might be inclined to put a part of the water in the bread pan at the beginning (to minimize the heating effects of the preheating cycle) and the rest of it as soon as the knead cycle begins. Second, I would shorten the length of the dough kneading cycle, by watching the dough as it is being kneaded and then removing it as soon as it is smooth and shiny. The combination of both of these steps should reduce the buildup of heat in the finished dough. As another possible step, I would consider using a higher hydration percentage, to achieve a more open and airy crumb, being careful to monitor the dough kneading process to be sure that the bread machine can handle the higher hydration without producing a gummy mess. At some point, I plan to test out these possible changes to see if the anticipated improvements are actually achievable.

Peter

 

Title: Re:Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 12, 2004, 03:08:34 PM
And a Lehmann slice (bread machine version).
Peter
Title: Re:Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: stock on October 12, 2004, 05:50:30 PM
good to see you again as well, Pierre. :)

Pete, please allow me to thank you for the time and effort you've put into this thread; i've found it incredibly informative, as well as enjoyable.  (i always find myself a bit at a loss for words when i phrase things this way, since i haven't explicitly thanked you yet--only said i want to.  so, um, i really appreciate what you're doing, and i look forward to putting some of this information into action.)
-scott
Title: Re:Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 12, 2004, 06:54:59 PM
Stock,

Thanks for the kind words.  If you are going to law school, you'll most likely end up eating a lot of pizzas as you hit the books at night.  Being able to make some good ones, whether it is a Tom L. NY style or some other, will come in handy :).  

Peter
Title: Re:Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Foccaciaman on October 19, 2004, 06:46:06 PM
Here is my most recent NY Style with the Lehman recipe.
Title: Re:Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Steve on October 19, 2004, 08:02:29 PM
Wow!!  :o

That looks great!!  8)
Title: Re:Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: DKM on October 19, 2004, 08:30:38 PM
Now that looks like a pizza 8)
Title: Re:Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: canadave on October 20, 2004, 01:11:20 AM
I made a pizza that looked just like that, about two days ago, using the Lehmann-based recipe.  Tasted delicious, too--I was very happy with it.  Tasted GREAT after being re-heated the next day--another true mark of a good NYC pizza :)

--Dave
Title: Re:Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 20, 2004, 09:38:08 AM
Foccaciaman and Canadave,

Would you guys mind sharing your particular versions of Tom L.'s NY style dough recipe for those who may want to try their hand at making a NY style pizza along the lines of Tom's recipe?  Also, would you make any particular recommendations for improving the recipe based on your own experiences?

Thanks.

Peter
Title: Re:Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: canadave on October 20, 2004, 11:15:39 AM
Sure thing, good idea....I should've done that in my last post.  Must be slipping :)

=============================
Canadave's "Lehmann-inspired" NY-style pizza
YIELD: two 16" pizzas
=============================

Ingredients:

--2 1/3 cups cool water (enough below lukewarm to feel "cool", but not cold enough to feel "cold")
--1 pound + 12 ounces high-gluten flour
--just under 2 tsp table salt
--just under 3 tsp instant rising yeast
--3 Tbsp Crisco vegetable oil (canola + soybean)
--1 Tbsp raw sugar

I dissolved the salt and sugar into the water, in the stand mixer bowl.  Combined the yeast and flour in a separate bowl, then emptied it into the mixer bowl.  Mixed on lowest speed until the dough started to congeal (took a little under a minute), then added the Crisco oil.  That made an oily dough ball.  I manually sprinkled a little flour on the dough until it looked less oily and slimy.  Continued to knead on lowest speed until the dough ball was solid-looking (only took another two or three minutes), then removed the dough and separated into two dough balls.  I put each ball in an oiled metal cookie tin, and put the tins in the fridge, *with the lids sitting upside-down on top of the tins, loosely covering the tins but not sealing them.*  Left them in this state for about an hour, then put the lids on the right way, sealing the tins.

Seven hours later (I was hungry), I took a tin out and let it room towards room temperature.  Preheated the oven with quarry tiles to 450 degrees (yes, only 450) on a hunch.  Two hours after I took the tin out, I removed the dough ball, spread it to 16 inches (it was pretty easy to work with), and put it in the oven for a couple of minutes (just to let the underside firm up a bit).  Then I removed it, put the sauce (6-in-1 straight out of the can, plus a generous helping of Loretta's Pizza Seasoning, bought at the local Italian Centre market) and cheese on, and baked it until the cheese was bubbling and just about to burn a bit.

Delicious!!  Excellent pizza.  The pizza I made the next day with the other dough ball was equally good.  The crust was nice and fluffy, relatively thin, a bit airy, but good consistency.  The underside was just short of crisp.  There was some good taste to it.  And it tasted even *better*, actually, when I put some in the fridge, microwaved it the next day and ate it reheated.  That was a pleasant surprise.  I'm wondering now--seriously--whether I should just make pizzas, immediately put them in the fridge, and eat them reheated, rather than eat them fresh out of the oven!  ;)

Some observations about my technique:

--I used to do a 10-minute knead, or a 5 min-rest 5 min-5 min knead.  On this pizza, I kneaded it juuuuust enough so that the dough formed a ball, waited about 20 seconds more for good luck, then removed it.  The entire knead took only about 5 minutes or so, I'd guess.  I also used only the lowest speed.  I did all this in response to the recent posts on here about how short knead times result in an airier crust, and that certainly worked for me--my previous crusts were too dense.  This new technique worked *great*.

--The 450 temp I used in the oven seems quite low, but I find that if I use high temps (500, 550), the bottom of the crust is almost "shocked", and separates itself from the rest of the dough, which is not supposed to happen in a NYC pizza.  The 450 seems "gentler" to me, and also lets me cook things more slowly so that I can achieve "finer control" over the finished product.

--In another version of this same recipe (actually, the first time I tried this), I forgot to add the sugar until the dough was already mixed, so I panicked and threw it in along with the oil.  This actually seemed to work, despite the fact that when I removed the dough from the mixer, it had little raw sugar pellets in it.  By the time the dough had risen a bit in the fridge, the pellets were mostly gone, and it seemed that the yeast had consumed it and left little air holes where the pellets were...actually a neat effect!  I might try that next time again.

--I'm not too keen on having to add some more flour to counteract the oily/slimy dough once I put the oil in.  I think I might try adding the oil a little earlier next time.

--The amount of yeast used doesn't seem to me to be a big deal.  Like I said, I tried two versions--one with 3tsp yeast, another with just short of two and a half tsp of yeast--and there didn't seem to be much of a difference between the two.  I'm coming around to the idea that achieving an exact and consistent amount of yeast is one of the more insignificant elements in making a good pizza--at least for me.

Questions?  Comments from the peanut gallery? :)  I hope to get a digital camera for the holidays, so maybe I'll be able to start sharing some photos.

Dave
Title: Re:Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 20, 2004, 10:21:38 PM
Canadave,

Terrific job describing your experience.  I felt like I was in the kitchen with you as you went through all the motions ;D.  What I wondered about the most was how much yeast you would use.  Tom L.'s NY style dough recipe calls for using a small amount of yeast and I know that you tend to use considerably more.  I have tried Tom's recipe with both small and larger amounts of yeast (IDY) and liked the results both ways.  I suspect the role of yeast is greatest before the dough gets into the oven.  Once that happens, the yeast should die as soon as the dough temperature gets to about 140 degrees F.

I think some of the airiness you experienced in the crust may have been attributable to the high hydration percentage you appear to have used.  I estimate that it was close to 65%, which is at the upper end of the range specified in Tom's recipe.  That, together with the high amount of yeast and the gentle processing of the dough (as Tom suggests), should have contributed to the more open texture of the crust.  From my own experience, I have found that I like using higher hydration percentages--because of the more open and airy crust that seems to result from the high hydration levels.  

I was intrigued by the lower oven temperature you used.  While I was away recently, I had a chance to spend some time with a pizza maker who has been making pizzas since he was 11 (he is now 38), and he also uses an oven temperature for his NY style pizzas that is lower than what most people use.  In his case, it is around 470 degrees F (he has a Bakers Pride deck oven that can get up to about 550 degrees F).  The other interesting thing he does is to shape the doughs for his NY style pizzas right out of the cooler, that is, without any warmup period or any docking.  From what I could see of his pizzas, there weren't a lot of bubbles in the finished crust, although there were a lot of little bubbles in the unbaked crust, much as we have seen in the photos of NY style doughs made by members of this forum.  Maybe the lower bake temperature minimizes the bubbling in the crust.  

Like you, I find that NY style pizza reheats very well.  I use a toaster oven to do the reheating.  I like the results so much that if I didn't have a toaster oven, I would get one just for that use alone.  But, first, the camera ;D.

Peter



Title: Re:Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: canadave on October 21, 2004, 10:41:45 AM
Peter,

Thanks for the compliment...this'll all be a lot easier to type out when I can support my text with a picture :)

To address some of your other points:

I agree--the high hydration of the dough PLUS the gentler handling contributed to the airier crust.  I think both components are essential.  Incidentally, I had always pictured airier as being *lighter*, like angel cake or something...but that's not really the case.  The dough was "substantial" enough to my palate that I didn't feel like I was eating a pastry.  And it wasn't exactly "light" either--nice heft to the slice.

I have to say---the lower dough temperature is really helping.  Like I say--every time I've gotten my oven up to 500, 550...the dough has been way too crisped at the bottom, and in fact has separated at the bottom from the rest of the crust, creating a "bi-level" pizza crust.  This isn't good.  The 450 temp still cooks everything...it just does it a little more slowly and, I suspect, *gently*.  The cheese also shows this--at higher temps, it tends to cook too quickly I think.  The 450 temp lets it gradually melt.  Unless one is looking for a "burnt crust" effect, I think the lower temp is good (think about it--those pizzas you can buy from the grocery store all say to cook for 10 minutes at 400 or 425!) :)

I found a few bubbles in the crust when I initially put it in (without docking it, which I used to do).  I just watched through the oven window and when I saw a bubble starting to get big, I reached in with a fork and popped it.  I only had to do that two or three times.

I've tried reheating pizzas I've made with the toaster oven too.  I prefer the way that the microwave *softens* the crust, as opposed to the toaster oven.  But either way, I like reheated better.  In fact, that's what I did with my latest pizza...took it out of the oven, immediately put it, pan and all, into the fridge...took it out of the fridge a couple of hours later and ate some reheated slices, which were delicious.  However, I will say that if you try this method, be prepared--the temptation to eat a slice right out of the oven is IMMENSE ;)

Dave
Title: Re:Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 21, 2004, 12:03:52 PM
Canadave,

I know exactly what you mean about the crust.  It's one of those situations that is hard to describe in words, and even a photo won't help all that much in characterizing the crust.   I have found that the crust can be soft, airy and chewy all at the same time but not bread-like.  And, as you say, it can have some heft to it.

BTW, Tom L. often recommends a lower bake temperature and, more than once, he has said that he prefers a lower bake temperature.  For example, in answer to a question posed to Tom on the ideal temperatures to bake different sized pizzas (8-, 10-, and 12-inches), he said (in quotes):

"As you know, I am not a fan of fast baking any pizza, I think all of your pizzas could be baked at 435F with baking times in the neighborhood of 3, 5 and 7 minutes respectively."

And, in answer to another question about baking pizzas at home on a stone, he said (in quotes):

"If you have a pizza stone, put it in the oven to heat with the oven, and have it in the center rack position. Bake at 425F. Watch the top of the pizza, when the cheese just begins to color, the pizza should be done. Again, you might need to play with the rack position to get the top and bottom bake balanced. If the bottom is too dark, move to a higher rack position, if it is too light, move it to a lower rack position."

Of course, there are times, as when you load up on the toppings, that a longer bake at a lower temperature may be necessary to be sure that the toppings are cooked before the crust is finished baking.

Peter
Title: Re:Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: canadave on October 21, 2004, 03:19:28 PM
I think I agree with just about everything you quoted Tom L. as saying.  Interesting how he takes the same approach to the cheese as I do--when it's just starting to brown, it's done.  Also, given the 3, 5, and 7 minute times to cook an 8, 10, and 12 inch pizza respectively, that gibes well with my approximate 10 minutes to cook my 16 inch pizza.

I might try his suggestion to put the tiles in the center of the oven.  I have mine on the lowest rack, but maybe I'll experiment next time.

Dave
Title: Re:Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 22, 2004, 10:57:52 PM
While visiting friends recently in Massachusetts, I offered to make a couple of NY style pizzas.  Since the Tom L. recipe for NY style dough has become etched in my brain and is now firmly a part of my DNA, I decided to use that recipe.  Along with the memorized recipe, I had brought my 16-inch pizza screen (in order to be able to make 16-inch pizzas), and my calculator.  My friends have a Braun variable speed food processor, a peel, and a pizza stone, but not much more.  Since I had brought no flours with me, and since my friends had neither high-gluten flour or bread flour, I decided to experiment with vital wheat gluten (VWG).  I was fortunate enough to find both King Arthur bread flour and the Arrowhead brand of VWG in a local Wild Oats market.  Doing a little bit of math, I was able to determine how much VWG to add to the KA bread flour to equal the protein content of the KA Sir Lancelot high-gluten flour (more on this below).  With a little bit of luck, the dough and the pizzas turned out fine, and before I could take photos, the pizzas were history.  I thought enough of the results, however, to repeat the experiment when I returned home to Texas--and, this time, to take a few photos.  I think the value of the experiment is to demonstrate that a good NY style pizza based on Tom L.'s NY style dough recipe can be made when a high-gluten flour is not available.  If either bread flour or all-purpose flour is available, along with VWG, the protein content of the basic flour used can be increased using the VWG.

For the most recent experiment, I decided on a 16-inch, thin pizza, using a hydration level of 63% and 0.25% IDY for the dough (and a thickness factor of 0.10).   Using the basic formula (stated elsewhere in this thread) to calculate the needed dough ball weight, I calculated that I would need a dough ball weight of around 20 ounces.  Using the baker's percents for Tom L.'s recipe, I calculated that the amount of KA bread flour I would need would be 12.10 ounces (the remaining ingredients and quantities are listed below).

To increase the protein content of the KA bread flour to approximate the protein level of the KA Sir Lancelot flour, I undertook the following steps.  First, I determined the difference in protein content between the KA Sir Lancelot high-gluten flour and the KA bread flour.  KA says that the protein content of its KASL flour is 14.2%, and 12.7% for its bread flour.  This gives us a difference of 1.5%, which has to be made up by the use of VWG. Tom L. and others tell us that for each 1% of VWG (by weight of flour) that is added to another flour, the protein content of that other flour will be increased by 0.6%.  So, for a differential of 1.5% in our specific case, this means that the amount of VWG to add to the KA bread flour (by weight of flour) should be 2.5% (1.5/0.6 = 2.5).  Taking 2.5% of 12.10 ounces of KA bread flour gives us about 0.30 ounces of VWG to add.  Arrowhead says that 1 T. of its VWG weighs 9 grams.  Doing some simple gram-to-ounces conversions tells us that 0.30 ounces of VWG (about 8.5 grams) comes to about 1 T.  We're almost home, but not quite yet.  Because the addition of the VWG increases the weight of the flour to which it is added, Tom L. tells us that we should increase the amount of water called for in the recipe by an amount equal to 1 1/2 times the VWG.  In this case, that added water came to 0.45 oz., or about 1 T.  To avoid pilling/lumping, the VWG is added directly to the flour and stirred into it.

The final recipe, with baker's percents, is as follows:

   KA bread flour (100%), 12.10 ounces (about 2 3/4 c.)
   Arrowhead VWG (2.5 %), 0.30 oz. (about 1 T.)
   Water (63%), 7.65 oz. (about 7/8 c.), plus an additional 1 T.
   Salt (1.75%), 0.21 oz. (about 1 t.)
   Oil (1.0%), 0.12 oz. (about 3/4 t.)
   IDY (0.25%), 0.03 oz. (between 1/4 and 1/3 t.)

To make the dough, I used my basic Cuisinart food processor with the plastic blade attached.  The water temperature was adjusted to achieve a finished dough temperature of around 80 degrees F.  For this experiment, this meant a water temperature (calculated) of 42 degrees F.  The processing of the dough was as previously described in this thread for a food processor, so I will not describe it here in detail.  The finished dough temperature was 83 degrees F and the dough ball weight was 20.55 ounces.  As will be noted, the added VWG and water increased the dough ball weight by a fraction of an ounce.  As an alternative approach, I could have reduced the amount of KA bread flour by an amount equal to the VWG added (their weights are about equal), and dispensed with the added tablespoon of water, and this would have produced a dough ball slightly closer to the calculated weight.  This is an approach that has been advocated by Giotto elsewhere at this site.  However, I chose instead to follow the recommendations of Tom. L. with respect to VWG for his recipe. 

The finished dough was refrigerated for about 24 hours, and brought out to room temperature for about 1/2 hour before shaping. The dough was an extremely good dough--easy to toss, stretch and form.  It had good extensibility, elasticity and smoothness.  After the dough was shaped, it was dressed in a simple pepperoni style and baked for about 7 minutes on the 16-inch pizza screen at a temperature of around 475 degrees F and finished for a final 2 minutes on a pizza stone that had been preheated for about an hour at 475 degrees F.  The finished pizza had the typical characteristics of a NY style pizza.  However, I can't say that it was identical to one made using the KASL high-gluten flour.  As between the two, I prefer a pizza dough made using the KASL flour.  This is not to diminish the pizza made with the KA bread flour supplemented by the VWG. The dough was exceptional--one of the best I have made--and it produced a good pizza.  And, since high-gluten flour is virtually unavailable at the retail level, one can still make a decent pizza if bread flour (or even all-purpose flour) and VWG are available.  (VWG is available in most large supermarkets and specialty food stores; the Arrowhead brand typically sells for about $3 for a 10 ounce package and is often sold in the bulk bins at places like Whole Foods and Wild Oats).

A photo of the finished pizza is shown below.  Note the presence of the bubbling.  I had intentionally shaped the dough earlier than usual to see if I would experience that effect.  I happen to like bubbles, but for those who don't I recommend that the dough be allowed to sit at room temperature for 1-2 hours before shaping.  A slice photo follows this posting.

Peter

 







Title: Re:Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 22, 2004, 11:01:51 PM
And a Lehmann VWG slice.

Peter
Title: Re:Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 23, 2004, 06:56:58 PM
In the last post, I discussed how to increase the protein content of KA bread flour, through the use of vital wheat gluten (VWG), to approximate the protein content of the KA Sir Lancelot high-gluten flour--the type of flour that is deemed to be the best to use for a NY style pizza dough (such as the Tom L. NY style pizza dough).  In that post, I mentioned the possibility of increasing the protein content of an all-purpose flour to accomplish the same purpose.  While I haven't specifically done so in an actual pizza experiment with Tom L.'s recipe, I have calculated the amount of VWG that would have to be added to all-purpose flour to approximate the protein content of the KASL high-gluten flour.  For purposes of this calculation, I assumed the all-purpose flour to be the KA all-purpose flour, with a stated protein content of 11.7%.  (The calculation can also be performed for some other brand of all-pupose flour, but you will need to know the protein content as accurately as possible; KA is known to demand very small variances in the specified protein content of its flours so the calculation is likely to be more accurate than with other flours.)

To determine the amount of VWG to add to the KA all-purpose flour, the first step is to determine the difference in protein levels of the KASL high-gluten flour and the KA all-purpose flour.   As indicated previously, the KASL flour has a protein content of 14.2%.  The KA all-purpose flour has a protein content of 11.7% (as noted above).  So, the difference is 2.5%.  Dividing this number by 0.6 gives us 4.167 (2.5/0.6 = 4.167). Multiplying the amount of flour called for by the recipe, 12.10 oz., by 4.167% yields an amount of VWG to add to the all-purpose flour of 0.50 oz., or 14.29 grams.  Using the Arrowhead VWG conversion factor of 1T = 9 grams, the amount of VWG to add to the KA all-purpose flour comes to a bit more than 1 1/2 T.

The amount of additional water that is needed to compensate for the added VWG is equal to 1.5 times 0.50 oz., or 0.75 oz.  This is equal to about 1 3/8 T of water.

Peter
Title: Re:Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 25, 2004, 06:35:31 PM
It recently dawned on me that of all the techniques I have used to test out the dough for Tom L.'s NY style pizza dough recipe, there was one that I completely neglected--hand kneading. Also, my focus had been on the larger-sized pizzas that are characteristic of the New York style. I suspect also that in the back of my mind was King Arthur Flour's admonition that a dough made with a high-gluten flour, such as its Sir Lancelot flour, should "be kneaded by a mixer, processor, or bread machine, to fully develop its gluten." The last part of this admonition gave me pause to wonder what would happen if I hand-kneaded a dough using the KA Sir Lancelot flour but did so gently, without a desire to fully develop the gluten (along the lines recommended by Tom L.), and if I just reduced the size of the dough ball so that it would not be a physical chore to knead it. With these thoughts in mind, I attempted an experiment based on these premises.  

For purposes of the hand-kneading experiment, I decided on a dough ball weight that would be sufficient to produce a thin NY style dough with a diameter of about 12 inches. Using the expression W = Pi (i.e., 3.14) x 6 x 6 x 0.10 (the thickness factor for a thin pizza), I calculated a value for W (dough weight) of a bit over 11.30 ounces. I concluded that such a weight would enable one to make a pizza on a standard size pizza stone (or tiles), or on a 12-inch pizza screen. Little else would be required in the way of pizza making equipment (except, perhaps, a calculator ;D).  

For the dough formulation itself, I decided on a relatively high hydration percentage, 63%, and an instant dry yeast (IDY) percentage of 0.25%. Using the mathematical techniques and weight-volume conversions as described in previous postings in this thread, I arrived at the following recipe formulation (including baker's percents):

  Flour (100%), KASL high-gluten, 6.80 oz. (about 1 5/8 c.)
  Water (63%), 4.30 oz. (about 5/8 c.)
  Salt (1.75%), 0.12 oz. (about 5/8 t.)
  Oil (1%), 0.07 oz. (about 1/2 t.)
  IDY (0.25%), 0.02 oz. (about 3/16 t.)

To hand knead the dough using the above recipe, I had basically two methods to choose from--the countertop method or the bowl method.  I chose the bowl method because it is simple and less messy. However, for those who prefer the countertop method, this is my suggested approach. Combine all of the dry ingredients on a work surface, including the salt, and form into a mound. Make a well in the center of the mound, and gradually add the water to the center of the mound. Using the fingers or a fork, draw the flour mixture into the water. When all the water and flour have been combined, the dough mass should then be kneaded for about a minute or two. If the dough mass seems dry, that's OK and don't be tempted to add more water. It takes time for the flour to be hydrated by the water. Then add the oil and knead that into the dough, for about 2 minutes, and continue kneading for about another 2 or 3 minutes. (If the flour and water were not weighed, it may be necessary to add more of one or the other--a little bit at a time--to get a dough of the correct texture and feel.) The dough will be sufficiently kneaded and ready for refrigeration when it is shaped into a round ball and the outer surface is smooth (i.e., without tears) and shiny. If it isn't, continue kneading, gently, until it is.  

It will be noted that I instructed that the salt be combined with all the other dry ingredients before adding the liquid ingredients. Doing so serves to slow down the oxidation of the flour and preserves the color and certain flavor and color enhancing vitamins (mainly carotenoids) in the flour. However, if an autolyse (rest period) is desired, as described in a previous post in this thread, the salt can be added later in the dough kneading process. However, trying to combine salt with an already-kneaded dough is a lot harder to do by hand than by a machine. The dough will separate and develop tears. However, this is a temporary condition and is overcome by simply kneading the dough until the salt is fully incorporated and the dough is smooth and elastic.  

As indicated above, I chose to use the bowl method to make the dough. I combined all of the dry ingredients in one bowl and put the water into another bowl. I gradually added the flour mixture to the water and stirred it with a spoon until the ingredients started to come together in a rough mass. I then put the dough mass onto a very lightly floured work surface and continued kneading until all of the flour had been taken up into the dough ball. I then added the oil and kneaded that into the dough ball, about a minute or two. I then continued kneading for an additional few minutes until the dough ball was smooth and shiny, with no tears. Once I reached that stage, I flattened the dough ball into a disk (to get the dough to cool faster), oiled the dough, put it into a plastic storage bag, and then into the refrigerator. I left the storage bag open for about 1 hour, to allow any moisture on the dough to evaporate, and then closed the bag for the rest of the duration in the refrigerator.

To be faithful to Tom L.'s NY style dough recipe in making the dough ball as described above, I temperature adjusted the water to achieve a finished dough temperature of 80 degrees F.  Unlike machines like stand mixers, food processors, and even bread machines, hand-kneading adds very little frictional heat to a dough--maybe 1 degree F. So, for a desired finished dough temperature of 80 degrees F, the water temperature will be close to room (and flour) temperature. For the temperature conditions that prevailed in my kitchen, the water temperature I needed was around 79 degrees F. (For those interested in the specific calculation methodology, visit some of my earlier postings in which the methodology is discussed in detail). The finished dough ball had a temperature of 80 degrees F. Its weight was 11.30 ounces (pretty much as calculated).

About 24 hours after I placed the dough ball into the refrigerator, I removed it from the refrigerator and brought it to room temperature, where it remained for about 1 1/4 hours in preparation for shaping and dressing. The dough handled very nicely. It had good extensibility (stretch) and, surprisingly, some elasticity (springback). In fact, the elasticity, which I prefer along with good extensibility (the dough tosses easier), was greater than most of the doughs I have made using machines. I had no trouble whatsoever in shaping the dough.  

The shaped dough was finished and dressed in a simple pepperoni style, using 6-in-1 tomatoes, dried oregano and basil, crushed rep pepper flakes, Hormel pepperoni slices, a combination of deli mozzarella and provolone cheeses, a few squirts of a good olive oil, and freshly-grated Parmigiano-Reggiano cheese and fresh basil (added after baking). The pizza was baked for about 7 minutes on a pizza stone that had been preheated for about 1 hour at about 500-550 degrees F. The pizza was delicious. It had the usual characteristics of a NY style pizza, except that it was smaller. Also, the crust was a little bit crunchier, quite possibly because of its smaller mass.

The photo below shows the finished product (with a slice photo in the following post). The pizza crust did exhibit some bubbling, which surprised me since the dough had been allowed to sit for a little bit over an hour before shaping and dressing. I think it may have been because the dough was a light mass compared with the much larger dough balls I have made previously for NY style pizzas, and colder when it emerged from the refrigerator. Letting the small dough ball sit for another hour might be a good idea (or use docking).

What the above experiment says to me is that it is possible to make a very good small NY style pizza without a major investment in stand mixers, food processors, or bread machines. I do believe, however, that a good kitchen scale is a worthwhile investment--even for the beginning pizza maker--especially for weighing the flour and water, which make up the bulk of the dough and whose relative weights and measurements are important to making good pizza doughs. And, obviously, a pizza stone, tiles or a pizza screen, and a paddle (peel) are prerequisites if pizza making is to become a regular routine. Hand kneading will also teach you a great deal about doughs. Once that has been mastered and you want to move on to even greater pizza challenges, then you can think about fancier gear.

Peter
  


  
Title: Re:Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 25, 2004, 06:38:31 PM
And a Lehmann (hand kneaded dough) slice.

Peter
Title: Re:Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Foccaciaman on October 25, 2004, 08:06:25 PM
Tasty looking pie... :o :o

Sorry, I forgot to post my last Lehman Pizza recipe, I just remembered that you had asked when i was reading your post.

I will try to have it up by the weekend. :)
Title: Re:Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 30, 2004, 01:07:01 PM
Today I came across a very nice Pizza Today (Dec. '02) article on dough management by Tom L., at http://pizzatoday.com/production_articles.shtml?article=Njc4c3VwZXI2NzVzZWNyZXQ2ODI=.  It isn't specifically directed to the NY style of dough, but certainly does apply to it, and to Tom L.'s NY style dough recipe that I have been testing in attempting to adapt it to just about any home setting using just about any piece of equipment (mixer, processor, bread machine, screen, stone, etc.)  

What I have found is that it is difficult to achieve the cooling temperature that Tom talks about in the article.  A home refrigerator is not a commercial cooler, and it can't produce low enough temperatures to produce the optimal result.  My main refrigerator compartment just can't go much lower than about 50 degrees F most of the time.  I have tried lower (cooler) water temperature, and more recently I have been trying out Giovanni's technique of freezing the kneaded dough (for about 30-40 minutes) before putting it into the refrigerator.  I have also started adding a little sugar to the dough to compensate for the higher refrigerator temperature and to extend the fermentation period so that the dough holds for more than a day (I'm looking for the flavors of long fermentation and a decent crust browning).  Adding a little bit more salt might help, as Tom's article suggests, although I would have to be careful with that since I don't want an overly salty crust.  

Peter
Title: Re:Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 30, 2004, 10:46:47 PM
Having made over a dozen pizzas based on Tom L.'s NY style pizza dough recipe, I thought it might be useful to summarize my observations and preferences for the benefit of those who have been following my "anatomy" of the recipe on this thread.  Here they are:

Flour: Of the four flours I tried--the KASL, Giusto, and All Trumps high-gluten flours, and the KA bread flour supplemented by vital wheat gluten--I would rate the KASL first.  The other flours will produce good results, but it's hard to beat the KASL overall.  The experiments using the vital wheat gluten showed that it is possible to make decent pizza doughs and pizzas where high-gluten flours are not readily available (which means most retail outlets), but where bread flour and vital wheat gluten are.

Water: I tried hydration percentages all along the 58-65% range specified in the recipe. I much preferred the higher hydration percentages--above 60% (with my favorite being 63%)--because I felt the higher water levels produced a more open and airy crust while retaining a nice chew and "heft" (as Canadave calls it).  I also adjusted water temperature to achieve a finished dough temperature of 80-85 degrees F.  I did this because the recipe called for it.  However, using higher water temperatures (say, up to 120 degrees F) is unlikely to pose a problem if the dough is to be used fairly promptly after refrigerating, for example, within a day or so.  If the dough is to be held (refrigerated) for two or more days before use, I would be inclined to use cooler water--to slow down the fermentation and extend its duration. I might also use a small amount of sugar to be sure that the yeast doesn't run out of food.

Yeast: I tried yeast amounts, in IDY form, all along the range of baker's percents specified in the recipe--and also considerably outside of the range.  The doughs that were made using yeast levels within the range rose only slightly while within the refrigerator, while those that used yeast levels outside of the range rose considerably more, in direct proportion to the amount of yeast used.  The high-yeast doughs were also harder to cool down, even when I tried freezing (which I did for the first time recently) for 30-40 minutes before refrigerating.  The pizza doughs and crusts didn't seem to suffer, however.  I liked both the low-yeast and high-yeast versions.  Low yeast usage might have a slight advantage because the fermentation process is slowed down, allowing greater development of flavor enhancing by-products of fermentation.

Salt: I stayed with the baker's percent for salt for all the pizzas I made.  However, as the article referenced in the last post makes clear, salt can also be used, within limits, to control the fermentation process and final results.

Sugar: Tom's recipe makes the use of sugar optional, being reserved mainly for those instances in which the dough is to be baked on other than a hearth-like surface (stone or tiles), where there will not be direct physical contact with the heat source, such as on discs or screens. However, I would be inclined to use sugar if the intention is to hold the dough for more than one day before using, to be sure that the yeast doesn't run out of food.  If that happens, it may be difficult to shape the dough or get a nice browning of the crust, no matter how long the pizza is baked (which increases the risk of burning the bottom of the crust and possibly overcooking some of the toppings).

Oil: I did limited experimentation with the amounts of olive oil used but did not notice any significant differences at the levels I tried.  In theory, increasing the amount of olive oil should result in increased dough extensibility and a softer crust.  I observed these characteristics more when I tried Canadave's recipe for NY style dough.

Kneading techniques: As between the four kneading methods I tried--stand mixer, food processor, bread machine and hand-kneading--I would rate the food processor first and hand-kneading second. Both of these techniques allow greater control of the entire dough mixing and kneading process, especially for smaller amounts of dough and where some of the touchier ingredients, such as salt and oil, are staged into the process at different points.  If I needed to make larger quantities of dough, say for several pizzas, I would use a stand mixer or make multiple batches in the food processor.  If the food processor is to be used, even when only the pulse switch is used (as I did for the most part, and highly recommend), it will be necessary to control water temperature to ensure hitting the 80-85 degrees F finished dough temperature.  In almost all cases, this will mean lower (cooler) water temperatures.  

Screens/pizza stones: I made pizzas using both pizza screens and a pizza stone.  The screens were reserved primarily for the larger sizes (e.g., 16-inch pizzas), which most pizzas stones cannot easily or safely handle, whereas the stone was used for some of the smaller sized pizzas.  I often used both a screen and the stone, using the stone for the final few minutes of baking to provide added browning and crisping of the bottom crust. Trying out different sizes of pizzas also allowed me to develop recipes for those different sizes, sparing potential users having to go through all the math to convert the basic recipe to dough amounts usable in a typical home setting.

Other: I tried using autolyse periods, but can't say with any conviction that the doughs benefited from it.  I also found that the longer I allowed a dough to sit at room temperature before shaping, the less bubbling it produced in the baked crust.  Anything less than 1 hour after coming out of the refrigerator was too little in almost all cases.  I happen to like bubbling in the crust, but within the professional ranks it is considered anathema.

Peter
Title: Re:Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Steve on October 31, 2004, 09:07:39 AM
Nice summary. I'd like to use some of this information on the "Tom Lehman NY Style Pizza" page that I'm working on for the site. Of course I'll cite you as the source of the information.  8)
Title: Re:Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on November 01, 2004, 07:12:59 PM
One of the few aspects of the NY style of pizza that I haven't addressed on this thread is how to handle leftover pizza.  What I have to say on this is generic in nature but it applies with equal force to the leftover pizza that I accumulated after making more than a dozen pizzas based on Tom L.'s NY style pizza dough recipe.  And, I can assure you, dear reader, that I didn't eat all of the pizzas as they emerged from the oven. Like anyone else bombarded by the perceived benefits of the Atkins and South Beach diets, I would like to preserve my svelte and youthful figure :).  So, a plan for preserving my leftover pizza became a practical necessity.

I first decided to preserve my leftover pizza (which I first cut into individual slices) in a large Rubbermaid container.  I believe Canadave refers to such a product by its more technical name--a "thingy" :).  But, as the pizzas emerged from the oven like the chocolates on Lucy's candy assembly line and I couldn't eat them fast enough, I had to resort to Plan B--freezing the leftover slices.  This I did by wrapping the individual slices in plastic wrap and tightly wrapping each batch of slices from a particular experiment in aluminum foil and placing the pizzas so cocooned into the freezer.

I (gratefully) have just about one of every piece of pizza-related apparatus that is known to mankind for use by the home pizza maker.  But one of the most useful is the toaster oven.  When I am in the mood for a slice or two of my growing collection of refrigerated pizza slices, I only have to put the slices on either a cheap pie plate or my 9" pizza screen, set the toaster oven to 450 degrees F, set the timer for about 5 or 6 minutes, and go about my business until I hear the timer go off.  One of the great things about the reheated NY style pizza slices is that they are invariably just as good as the original.  Unlike Canadave, who eats his pizzas long after they have come out of the oven, I like to eat at least some of my pizzas in real time, usually right after I have fiddled around with my digital camera and gotten it to take photos of the pizzas for posting on this site.  To wait a moment longer is to contravene just about any pizza principle I can think of.  However, I fully understand and appreciate where Canadave is coming from.  Reheated NY pizza slices are wonderful!  So, don't throw away any leftover slices or feed them to the dog (no offense to the dogs who have been following this thread).  Just refrigerate the leftover slices in a Rubbermaid  thingy if you'd like to eat them in a few days, or wrap and freeze them if you plan to eat them in a few weeks or so.

Even the reheated frozen slices reheat well in the toaster oven.  I just place them, in frozen form, on my cheap pie plate or on my pizza screen and add an extra minute or two to the usual reheat time and lower the temperature of the toaster oven a bit.  I don't bother to defrost the slices first.  If I didn't know better, I would think that they just came out of the oven (I am exaggerating a bit, of course, but not much).

I guess the moral of this story is that it is possible to have you pizza and eat it (all) too ;D.  

Peter
Title: Re:Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on December 20, 2004, 01:24:00 PM
Recently, at the "Dough Enhancers" thread, I offered to assist fellow member Lars by developing a formulation for a NY style pizza dough, based on Tom Lehmann's recipe, to allow Lars to make a 9-inch "mini" NY style pizza in his toaster oven, pending resolution of problems that he has been having with his conventional oven.   Lars had concluded that the maximum size pizza that he felt could be made in his toaster oven was 9 inches, and that the maximum temperature he can coax out of his toaster oven is around 450 degrees F.  Lars had also informed us that he had the following specific ingredients available to him: bread flour, vital wheat gluten (VWG), and instant dry yeast (IDY).  Based on these inputs, I calculated that Lars would need a dough ball weight of about 6.35 oz. (3.14 x 4.5 x 4.5 x 0.10 = 6.35 oz.)   For the formulation, I decided to use a hydration percentage of about 63%, with the objective of achieving a chewy yet open and airy crust.  The resulting formulation for Lars' toaster oven "mini" NY style pizza came out as follows:

Bread flour (100%), 3.85 oz. (about 7/8 c.)--I used the KA brand
Water (63%), 2.45 oz. (a bit over 1/3 c.)
Salt (1.75%), 0.07 oz. (about 1/3 t.)
Oil (1%), 0.04 oz. (about 1/4 t.)--I used light olive oil
IDY (0.25%, 0.10 oz. (a bit less than 1/8 t.)
VWG (about 1 t.)--I used the Arrowhead brand but Red's should work about the same
(Note: for those who choose to use high-gluten flour, such as KASL, the VWG should be omitted)

Since I had decided to make two mini pizzas, one on the 9 1/4" x 10 1/4" x 1/2" pizza stone that came with my toaster oven (DeLonghi Alfredo plus model), and one on a 9-in pizza screen, I doubled the above recipe amounts.  Because of the small amounts of dough involved, I decided to use only hand kneading.  I combined the bread flour, IDY, salt and VWG in a bowl, gradually added the water, and started to mix, initially with a wooden spoon and then by hand.  As I have done with essentially all of the Lehmann NY style doughs I have made, I temperature adjusted the water to achieve a finished dough temperature of around 80 degrees F.  In this case, the water temperature I calculated was around 100 degrees F.  Absent an instant read thermometer, all that one needs to know is that 100-degree F water is warm to the touch.  (It can be achieved by heating the roughly 1/3 c. of water in the microwave oven in a 1-cup size Pyrex glass measuring cup for about 12 seconds).   After the dough came together in the bowl, I divided the dough ball in half and kneaded each dough ball separately until it was smooth and elastic, yet still a bit tacky, about 6-7 minutes.  The finished dough temperature for both dough balls was 80 degrees F.

I then oiled the dough balls lightly with light olive oil, put them into plastic bags, and then into the refrigerator compartment of my refrigerator where they stayed for the next 24 hours.  When I took them out of the refrigerator to make the pizzas, I let them set at room temperature for a little over an hour.  As the dough was warming up, I preheated the pizza stone for my toaster oven at 450 degrees F (I relied on the knob temperature setting) for about 1 hour.  Since I don't have a "mini" peel, I dressed the first pizza on a floured plastic vegetable prep sheet, which served as my "peel" to get the dressed pizza onto the pizza stone.  I baked the pizza (pepperoni with 6-in-1 tomatoes, a 50/50 blend of shredded mozzarella/provolone cheeses, and a bit of fresh basil) for about 11 minutes, or until the rim of the crust turned golden brown and the cheeses were melted, but not burning.    

The second pizza was dressed directly on the 9-inch pizza screen, using the same toppings and amounts as the first pizza.  That pizza was baked at the 450 degree F toaster oven setting for about 11 minutes also, or until the crust had browned and the cheeses were melted.  

The photo below is for the first pizza baked on the pizza stone, and the following photos on succeeding postings are for a slice of the pizza baked on the stone, followed by a photo of the second pizza baked on the screen and a slice of that pizza.

As between the two pizzas, I felt that the pizza baked on the small pizza stone was the better pizza.  The stone appeared to do a better job of distributing the toaster oven heat to the pizza.  The screen was closer to the heating element and required closer monitoring to be sure that the bottom didn't darken excessively before the toppings were done.  As a result, I would recommend to Lars, as well as anyone else attempting a NY style pizza in a toaster oven, to use a pizza stone if possible, or, alternatively, look into getting a couple of unglazed quarry stones and fashioning a baking surface equivalent to a pizza stone (some cutting of the stones may well be necessary).  Otherwise, a 9-inch pizza screen can be used.  

Readers will note that the pepperoni used on the pizzas exhibits the "cup and char" characteristic which is favored by some pizza makers.  For the two pizzas, I used a pepperoni that is made by Ceriello Fine Foods.  I had picked up a stick at the specialty foods section of Grand Central Station while I was in NYC over the Thanksgiving holiday.  The amount of fat rendered by the pepperoni was actually greater than shown in the photos.  I removed some of it before taking the photos. But, for those who like the idea of fat running down their elbows while eating the pizza, then the best course is to leave the fat alone and go at it.  Both pizzas were very good, with a nice, flavorful, chewy, open and airy crust.  I wouldn't have suspected that the mini pizzas were any different than their 16-in brethren but for the smaller pizza slices and a restrained "droop".

So, Lars, this one's for you  :).

Peter
Title: Re:Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on December 20, 2004, 01:29:00 PM
A slice of the Lehmann "mini" (9-inch) NY style pizza baked on the toaster oven pizza stone.

Peter
Title: Re:Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on December 20, 2004, 01:32:36 PM
The Lehmann "mini" (9-inch) NY style pizza baked in the toaster oven on a 9-inch pizza screen.

Title: Re:Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on December 20, 2004, 01:35:39 PM
A slice of the Lehmann "mini" (9-inch) NY style pizza baked in the toaster oven on the 9-inch pizza screen.


Title: Re:Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Lars on December 20, 2004, 04:15:40 PM
Thanks, Pete!!  I just bought the 9" pizza screens on Saturday, and I also bought a couple of 9" pans.  Right now I'm brining a turkey breast in the fridge, and so the making of the pizza will have to wait a couple of days, but I will use your advice and post the results.  BTW, I also found some new tomatoes at Surfas (restaurant supply).  I'll post info about that on the ingredients thread.

I saved your instructions, and I will also double the recipe, since I bought two 0" screens.  The scale I have is accurate only to .2 oz (it's a postal scale), and so I'll have to use volume measurements for the small ingredients.  I might quadruple the recipe and bake two pizzas on the pans without using the screens, but I'll have to get a small pizza stone first.  I may have to get the unglazed quarry tiles, but those should be easy to find, although I don't know about the sizing.

Again, thanks so much for the trouble you've gone to on my behalf!  I'll definitely take pictures of the final product!

My next question is How do you layer the toppings?  In the past I have put a layer of cheese first and baked the pizza for 4-5 minutes, or until the cheese has melted.  I generally use sliced Provolone for this.  Then I put the tomato sauce on top of that and I usually add sliced mushrooms and olives (green & black), a small layer of Parmesan and then fresh mozzarella on top of that.  I think the mushrooms and fresh mozzarella have too much water, as the top always seems a bit too wet, and I have actually used paper towels to get rid of some of the excess moisture.  I also think that baking at too low a temperature is part of the problem, however.
Title: Re:Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: DKM on December 20, 2004, 04:31:04 PM
Looks tasty.

Did some good work there, son.

DKM
Title: Re:Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on December 20, 2004, 05:03:25 PM
Lars,

The tricky part in using the screen in the toaster oven is to be sure the bottom of the pizza doesn't brown too quickly or burn.  In retrospect, I should have put the toaster oven rack another notch up, because the bottom of the screened pizza was darker than the other pizza.  Moving the pizza up a notch in the toaster oven might have solved that problem, but doing so might also have changed the required bake time.  For the stone, the lowest rack worked fine.   One of the benefits of making the mini pizzas in the toaster oven is that you don't have to heat up your regular oven (when it is working right) just to make a small pizza when a snack is all you really want.   If you decide to quadruple the amount of dough, you may also choose to use your stand mixer rather than resorting to hand kneading entirely.

As for the method of layering the pizza ingredients, I don't have a set sequence.  For the New York and similar style pizzas I usually put the sauce down first, followed by the meltable cheeses (e.g., mozzarella or a mozzarella/provolone blend), and the rest of the toppings and any grated hard cheeses.  More recently, after seeing a program on pizzas on the Travel channel, I have been playing around with putting the cheese down first, followed by the sauce and the remaining toppings.  Either way, if you put a lot of toppings, especially wet ones like vegetables, or watery cheeses like fresh mozzarella cheese, you run the risk of the crust finishing baking before the toppings are done.  If you saute the mushrooms first in a little bit of olive oil or butter (to provide a barrier against moisture), and salt them before cooking to extract some of the moisture, that should help.  Not overdoing the toppings quantity-wise is usually also a good idea.  

You are right that the low temperature of your toaster oven works against getting the pizza just right.  Excess water moisture is a problem even for professional pizza operators when their customers order too many high-moisture toppings.  You will have to play around with the small pizzas to get a feel for how the physics of your toaster oven will affect the results of the pizzas you make in it.   One of the things you might consider, especially if you place the screen on a higher rack position in your toaster oven, is to turn on the broiler.  This might help drive off some of the excess moisture and also provide some beneficial browning of the crust and melting of the fresh mozzarella cheese.  

You might even experiment with the procedure you mentioned, i.e., pre-baking the pizza to melt the cheese and then adding the sauce and remaining toppings.  

I look forward to the results of your experiments.

Peter

Title: Re:Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on January 03, 2005, 06:37:53 PM
On New Year's Eve, while I was visiting friends in Massachusetts, I was called upon to make a variety of pizzas (a total of eight) to celebrate the approach of the new year.  I had decided in advance that three of these should be 16-inch NY style pizzas based on Tom L.'s NY style dough recipe.  Since I did not have any high-gluten flour on hand, I decided to use bread flour (King Arthur brand) and supplement it with some Arrowhead vital wheat gluten (VWG) to approximate the protein content of KA's Sir Lancelot high-gluten flour.  The recipe I chose to use, and many of the techniques employed, were similar to what I had reported on in an earlier posting at this thread (Reply #65, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg5635.html#msg5635). 

The ingredients for the recipe I used were as follows:

KA bread flour (100%), 12.45 oz. (about 2 3/4 c.)
Arrowhead VWG (2.5%), 0.31 oz. (just shy of 1 T.)
Water (62%), 7.70 oz. (just shy of 1 c.), plus 1 T. (to compensate for the VWG)
Salt (1.75%), 0.22 oz. (about 1.10 t.)
Oil (1%), 0.12 oz. (about 3/4 t.)
IDY (0.25%), 0.031 oz. (between 1/4 and 1/3 t.)
Sugar, 0.07 oz. (about 1/2 t.)

To prepare the dough, I used my friends' variable-speed Braun food processor.  I combined all the dry ingredients for each dough ball in the bowl of the processor, gradually added the water (which I had temperature-adjusted to achieve a finished dough temperature of about 80 degrees F), and then pulsed the dough until it came together into a rough ball between the blade and the sides of the bowl, about 2 to 3 minutes.  I then added the oil and kneaded for about another minute or two.  The dough was a bit sticky at this point, so I removed it from the bowl and kneaded it a bit more by hand on a work surface using a small amount of bench flour--just until the dough was a bit tacky but elastic and smooth.  I oiled the dough with a little bit of olive oil, placed it into a plastic storage bag, and then into the refrigerator, where it stayed for the next 24 hours or so.  The weight of each dough ball was about 21 ounces. 

About 2 hours before I planned to shape the three dough balls into pizza rounds, I removed them from the refrigerator and let them sit at room temperature (which was around 64 degrees F).  I then shaped the dough balls, one by one, into 16-inch rounds.  The dough was extemely easy to shape and stretch into pizza rounds.  Each was dressed, baked on a 16-inch pizza screen on an upper oven rack for several minutes and then for a final few minutes on a 15-inch round pizza stone that had been preheated for about an hour at around 500-550 degrees F.  Because each pizza was topped differently, as noted below, I used the color of the crusts to determine when to shift from the screen to the stone.  In my case, when the dough for a pizza started to turn light brown at the rim (which was puffy at this point) and the cheeses were just starting to turn color, I shifted the pizza to the stone for the final few minutes of baking, or until I got the desired top and bottom crust color and cheese browning.  All three pizzas turned out very well and were well received by the guests, notwithstanding their less than sober condition.

What came as a surprise was how well the crust made from the above recipe could hold up to a lot of toppings, without getting soggy or collapsing from the weight of the toppings.  The first pizza had the fewest toppings.  It was a simple yet classic pepperoni pizza with a roughly 50/50 blend of whole milk mozzarella and provolone cheeses, a simple 6-in-1 tomato sauce (tomatoes right out of the can), a few dried herbs and fresh basil, a drizzling of olive oil, and freshly-grated Parmigiano-Reggiano cheese (after baking).  The second pizza was a sausage pizza with all of the other toppings mentioned above (other than the pepperoni) and also a decent scattering of diced green peppers and onions, and some grated Asiago cheese.  The final pizza, which I dubbed the "Kitchen Sink" pizza, had all of the toppings and cheeses mentioned above for the other two pizzas (including both pepperoni and sausage) plus a fair amount of sauteed mushrooms and several dollops of fresh mozzarella cheese in addition to the other cheeses.  I was afraid that I was about to enter the failure zone with a real mess on my hands, and even some of the guests were starting to fret as I loaded on the toppings.  But, remarkably, the crust rose to the challenge and the final pizza turned out to be the most popular of the three pizzas.

Peter 
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Lars on January 25, 2005, 08:32:38 PM
Peter, I finally got the unglazed ceramic tile for my toaster oven.  I bought three 12" square tiles (http://www.bourgetbros.com/tile_saltillo_mexican.htm) (actual size 11-3/4" sq) from Bourget Bros in Santa Monica, and I left one whole to use as a top stone for my regular oven.  One I used for experimenting on how to cut tiles, and the third I cut 2" off one end so that it will fit in my toaster oven.  So the small one is 11-3/4" x 9-3/4" and will easily accommodate the 9" diameter pizza screens I have.  I also have a couple of 9" diameter aluminum pizza pans, but I'm not sure if I should use them or not.  Do you recommend baking on screens, directly on the tile, or with a pan?

I took advice from your recipes in the dough I started today, but I did make one substitution; i.e., one part semolina flour to 4 parts bread flour.  I like the texture I get from using part semolina flour.  If possible, I will take photos tomorrow, when I finish the dough.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on January 25, 2005, 10:05:48 PM
Lars,

NY style pizzas are invariably baked on stones (hearth) or screens, or a combination of both, so I wouldn't tend to use pans if you have the stone or screens. I think you may find it most helpful to use either the stone (tiles) or a screen, rather than both, because of the limited space in your toaster oven and limited maneuverability. Make enough dough for two pizzas and try baking one directly on the tile (preheated) and one using the screen alone (using a higher rack position to avoid overbaking). One of the advantages of using the screen, of course, is that it is easier to place in the toaster oven. Otherwise, you have to find a mechanism for transferring the unbaked pizza into the oven squarely on top of the stone. In my case, I used a vegetable prep sheet that was of just the right size and shape.

You should be OK adding some semolina flour to the recipe. However, since semolina is a finely divided form of flour with a fair amount of protein and gluten formation, you may find it necessary in future adaptations to add a bit more water to properly hydrate the flour mixture. You might also inch up the yeast a bit. But, whatever you do, the final dough should still be a bit tacky to the touch. I recently visited a pizza operator in Massachusetts and he routinely uses semolina in his NY style doughs, and the crust is of very high quality. He uses a roughly 50/50 blend, in equal volume amounts (he uses the same number of scoops of each flour).

I look forward to your results.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Lars on January 26, 2005, 07:40:06 PM
I'm baking it tonight, and so I'll let you know.  BTW, my toaster oven is pretty large inside, and so there is plenty of room for both screen and tile.  I'd been using a screen on the pizza stone in my regular oven because there isn't enough room for me to use the peel efficiently.  I should get one with a shorter handle because my kitchen is too narrow.  I have a cookie sheet that I can use as a peel, and so I somewhat regret buying the peel, as the cookie sheet works better, and it will also work with the toaster oven.

I did have to add a bit more water to the dough because of the semolina, and I made sure that the dough was tacky to the touch.  I have quite a bit of experience with getting the water proportion correct, and I did add a bit more yeast as well, since my own recipe calls for more, and I was making something in between your recipe and one I had used before.  I think I'll get something fairly decent this time, but I'll let you know the exact results, in case it needs more fine tuning.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on January 27, 2005, 06:33:12 PM
Fellow member friz78 recently indicated an interest on another thread in a recipe for a NY style dough based on a high hydration level and sufficient to make a 16-inch pizza. Since I did not have the precise recipe on hand, I took the basic Lehmann recipe I have been working with over the past few months and developed a new formulation for the 16-in size. I chose to use a relatively high hydration level of 63% (the weight of the water relative to the weight of flour) and instant dry yeast (IDY) at the high end of the range (0.25%) specified by the basic Lehmann recipe. To calculate the amount of dough that would be needed to make the 16-inch size, I used the expression Pi x R x R x TF, where Pi is equal to 3.14, R is the radius of the pizza (8 inches) and TF is the thickness factor for a typical NY style dough. I used 0.105 for the thickness factor. Using this expression, the amount of dough needed to make the 16-inch pizza is around 21 oz (3.14 x 8 x 8 x 0.105 = 21 oz.). Here is the formulation I ended up with, together with the baker's percents:

High-gluten flour (100%), 12.65 oz. or just under 3 c. (King Arthur Sir Lancelot preferred)
Water (63%), 7.95 oz., or around 1 c.
Salt (1.75%), 0.20 oz., or a bit over 1 t.
Oil (1%), 0.13 oz., or a bit over 3/4 t.
IDY (0.25%), 0.03 oz., or about 1/3 t.

The above recipe can be practiced using either a stand mixer, food processor, or even by hand (although the latter will require a lot more effort). Details of the techniques to be used have been reported elsewhere in this thread. Because the volume measurements specified above are estimates (albeit the best I could come up with), if the volume measurements are used it may also be necessary to make minor adjustments to the amounts of flour and/or water to achieve the proper consistency for the dough (smooth, elastic and a bit tacky) when it is ready to go into the refrigerator. I recommend at least 24 hours of refrigeration, and a 1-2 hour warmup period after coming out of the refrigerator before shaping. If several dough balls are made, they should last another 2-3 hours at normal room temperature. If a longer retardation period is desired, say, 48-72 hours, then I would suggest using cooler water (I normally temperature adjust to get a finished dough temperature of around 80 degrees F), a bit of added sugar, or both. (The cooler water slows down the fermentation process and the sugar provides food for the yeast to keep the fermentation process going.)

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: friz78 on January 27, 2005, 06:39:55 PM
Unreal.  Fantastic.  Thanks - can't wait to get started.  Should have some pictures by the end of the weekend.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: friz78 on January 27, 2005, 06:45:50 PM
Pete,
I read some interesting conversation earlier in this thread about oven temperature.  What are your thoughts.  Lately, I have found a 550 oven with my stone at the bottom of the oven to be too hot and burning the bottom of the pizza before the top is cooked.  I am leaning toward a 475-500 degree oven temperature this time around.  Your thoughts?
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Lars on January 27, 2005, 09:01:12 PM
I made three 9" pizzas yesterday, which I baked in my toaster oven using the ceramic tile and screens.  I tried two different methods of shaping the dough - one by stretching it by hand, which gave me a very thin center and a somewhat thick edge, and the other by rolling it out with a rolling pin, which gave me a uniform thickness.  The first method worked better and gave me the closest to a NY style pizza that I've been able to make yet.  I really like the NY style much better on a small pizza because after I cut the pizza into fourths, it was very easy to fold the pieces over (approximately in half) with the point going to the crust, and this made it very easy to eat, although it was somewhat like Calzone.  The ones with even thickness did not fold easily. 

I agree that oven temp is critical.  I baked these at 450° in my toaster oven, and they tended to cook faster on the top than on the bottom.  I would have liked for the bottom to be a bit crisper, and I think a temp of 500° would have been better.  I used Mozzarella di Bufala on top, and it turned brown in 10 minutes, at which time I took the pizzas out, even though the bottom could have cooked a bit more.  In the past, I have baked the crust with no toppings (or just cheese) for a few minutes before adding toppings so that the crust would be cooked enough and the toppings not burned.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on January 27, 2005, 09:35:53 PM
Lars,

Congratulations on your initial efforts to make NY style pizza in a toaster oven. I never thought we'd find ourselves talking about making NY style pizzas that way, but you've confirmed that it can be done. With practice, you will get to know your toaster oven better (who'd ever thought we'd utter those words either) and be able to improve upon the finished product and technique. Who knows? With time, you may become our resident expert on toaster oven New York style pizzas. Just don't ask me for a recipe for NY style pizza hors d' oeuvres or cocktail canapes :).

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: friz78 on January 27, 2005, 09:51:49 PM
I just got done with preparing the 63% hydration recipe you posted earlier Pete (for 16 inch pizza).
I don't know if it was the hydration %, the greatly reduced kneading time, the KA Sir Lancelot flour, the weight measurements, or a little of everything, but I am so encouraged by the way this dough came together.  Like night and day from my last attempt.  As evidence of the difference between weight measurements and volume - the water that you recommended for this recipe was "approximately 1 cup".  When I got done with weighing it, it was almost 1.25 cups.  That seems like quite a big differential to me.  I am sold on weight measurements for accuracy and ability to duplicate recipes that you like.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on January 27, 2005, 10:32:51 PM
friz,

There are many members of this forum who are far more knowledgeable than I about oven temperatures and how to coax the most out of the lowly home oven.

When I first started my study of pizzas it was with the Neapolitan style pizzas, which called for very hot ovens and very hot pizza stones. So, I got used to cranking the oven up to its highest temperature--around 500-550 degrees F. When I started making New York style pizzas, I also cooked them on a very hot stone. However, since the largest pizza my stone (and my peel) could accommodate was 14 inches, the only way I saw to make a larger pizza, apart from replacing my pizza stone with tiles covering a larger area, was to use a screen. I chose a 16-inch screen since that is the largest size that will fit in my oven with the door closed, and the 16-inch size is also fairly typical of a NY style pizza as one might find in NYC. I would dress the pizza dough on the screen and put the screen on an upper rack position in the oven. Once the edge of the pizza started to swell and turn brown, I would slide the pizza off of the screen and onto the stone (at the lowest rack position) for another couple of minutes to get the increased top and bottom crust browning. I found that I liked the results better using this method than when I used a screen all by itself. But I will also confess that I haven't tried to master using the screen apart from the stone, as many on this forum, such as Randy, for example, have done. My recollection is that Randy put his stone in the closet.

As for temperatures when using the screen, I have used the hottest oven temperature I can muster and I have tried lower temperatures. Since I don't overload my pizzas with toppings and cheeses, I have been able to get away with using the higher temperatures without having the crust done before the toppings are cooked and the cheeses are browned, or vice versa. There are some experts, notably Tom Lehmann, who believe that most people, including professional pizza operators, bake their pizzas at too high an oven temperature. My recollection is that he advocates a bake temperature of around 435-450 degrees F for most types of pizzas. He points out that at the lower temperatures a pizza will bake more evenly and thoroughly and will have nicer browning and taste without sacrificing other desirable qualities of the pizza, such as softness, texture and chewiness of the crust.

As with any home oven, the user has to get to learn the idiosyncracies of the oven. This can come only with time and experience. Ultimately you will find the sweet spot and thereafter your results will be more consistent and reliable. Learning your oven also means having to be attentive and scrupulously watching what is happening as your pizza bakes. It's like Yogi Berra once said: You can observe a lot about something by just watching.

In the future, I would like to try one of Steve's two-stone methods, in conjunction with using the broiler, to try to get a more authentic-looking crust.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on January 27, 2005, 11:20:40 PM
friz,

I went back to my digital scale and weighed 7.95 oz. again, and got about 1 cup again on a volume basis. The way I converted the water from weight to volume for purposes of the recipe was to put a glass Pyrex one-cup measuring cup on my scale, tared out the weight of the measuring cup, and added water to the cup until 7.95 oz. showed on the readout of the scale. The level of the water as best I could eyeball it looking at eye level was at just about the 1 cup marking. I use the Pyrex measuring cup because it is intended for volume measurements. For dry ingredients, I use metal measuring cups and spoons intended to measure dry ingredients.  I have seen conversion data for water that says that one cup of water weighs a bit over 8 oz, so I don't think I am far off the mark, given that my scale has an accuracy of 0.05 oz. and it is almost impossible to discern the precise water level marking. But I think you can see why weight is more reliable than volume and how difficult it is to convert weight measurements to volume measurements.

I can't account for your reading, unless I was wrong in my approach, my scale is off, or you are using an analog scale (I don't recall whether yours was analog or digital). It would be nice to get the answer.

Peter





Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: friz78 on January 27, 2005, 11:40:27 PM
Peter,

I was using an old plastic measuring cup that makes Pyrex look like state of the art measuring equipment.   My situation is more of an example of how UNRELIABLE many measuring tools can be, especially old, outdated ones.  This old plastic cup that I used was so inaccurate it was incredible.  You're absolutely correct - in the end, the scale doesn't lie...
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: JAG on January 28, 2005, 07:45:27 AM
Guys,

This is probably just some almost useless info. that for some reason has remained deep in my memory, and won't go away, but water volume to weight ratio is. 1 oz. H2O volume = 1.03833(and some change) oz. H2O weight.  If all the other ingredients aren't measured out to this detail, carrying out this many decimal points is probably pointless though, not to mention a real challenge.

JG
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Steve on January 28, 2005, 08:53:04 AM
So what you're saying is that 1 cup (8 oz.) of water weighs 8.3 oz.  ;)
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: JAG on January 28, 2005, 11:20:32 AM
Steve,
That would be correct, 8.3oz. per cup, if anyone wants to split hairs. I usually use the eyeball method since my other ingredients aren't measured out to the extreme. :)
JG
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Randy on January 28, 2005, 01:13:42 PM
But that is only at a given water temperature and since everything is relative with the exception of speed approaching that of light a cup of water is still a cup of water.  At right about boiling a cup weighs 8 oz.


Randy
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: JAG on January 28, 2005, 02:08:42 PM
Exactly!!?? ;D, and since I don't usually take the time to be that careful with my measurements I say damn the torpedos, and hope a few tenths of an oz. (of such a large measurement) won't make or break my dough. A few tenths off could be catastrophic when measuring the smaller ingredients though, so that I do with caution.

JG
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Randy on January 28, 2005, 02:22:57 PM
JG, I still weigh my water and flour like steve and some of the others do.  On the thin crust pizza we have been talking about the difference between 6oz and 5.8pz of water makes all the difference in the world.
I have heard more than once TV chefs saying a cup of water weighs 8 oz while knowing it did not.
 8)
Randy
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: friz78 on January 29, 2005, 09:04:15 PM
I made Peter's recipe for a Lehman 16 inch NY style pizza last night.  The dough turned out great and the pizza was fantastic.  Thanks Peter, for the great and very precise recipe.  The KASL flour also made a huge difference.  Now I know what the big rage about KASL is all about.  I had a few glitches in the pizza making process but they were all  my fault and had nothing to do with the great NY style dough recipe.  I stretched the dough too much to about 17 inches and, as a result, some of the crust hung over the edge of my pizza stone.  The dough spread beautifully though - almost too easily. 

The pizza was fantastic and very authentic NY style.  Perhaps a slight bit too thin, but that was more because I stretched the dough too much, perhaps because the dough was a bit too extensible.  Here's a couple thoughts and questions for discussion:

1.)  What is the best way to reduce the extensibility somewhat?  My guess would be one of three ways: a.) increasing the kneading time, b.) decreasing the hydration level slightly, or c.) dress the dough with a bit more flour just before the stretching of the dough, or d.) a little bit of all the aforementioned.  Thoughts and opinions on this matter are welcomed and greatly appreciated.

2.)  Realizing my error in stretching the dough too much to 17 inches, could this also be a good argument as to the advantages of using a pizza screen?  With a screen, you never have to worry about incorrect sizes of your dough and/or disasters with the transition between your pizza peel and pizza stone.  I haven't tried a screen yet, but I just ordered two of them.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on February 01, 2005, 11:56:21 AM
friz,

I'm glad to hear of your good results.

As for ways to reduce the extensibility of the dough, I think you hit on some of the possble ways of doing so, but I don't think adding a bit more flour to the dough at the time of shaping will be all that effective. You might also be inclined to think that you can knead in a bit of extra flour and improve the elasticity. But I wouldn't do that since it will only mess up the gluten network of the dough and leave you with a dough that is so elastic that it will take you another hour or two to get the dough to behave as you'd like it.

I think reducing the hydration percent may be the best way to go. But I think you can also slow down the rate of fermentation by using cooler water or by using even less yeast. It might even be possible to increase the elasticity by letting the dough ferment for less than 24 hours before using, say, 18 hours. That way, the gluten won't have a chance to completely relax as a result of the chemical action that takes place in the dough.

If you figure it out, please let us know. I have learned to live with the high extensibilty and achieve decent results. Most of the time, the complaints are about too much elasticity and too little extensibility.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: JAG on February 01, 2005, 03:02:31 PM
JG, I still weigh my water and flour like steve and some of the others do. On the thin crust pizza we have been talking about the difference between 6oz and 5.8pz of water makes all the difference in the world.
I have heard more than once TV chefs saying a cup of water weighs 8 oz while knowing it did not.
 8)
Randy
Randy,
 Thanks for the enlightenment on the water weight issues with the thin crust. My lacking of accuracy in water is probably why my thin crust never turned out to my liking, and therefore I had abondonded it.
 This has brought up a new interest in trying to get a decent thin crust, so I guess this seems like as good a time as any to place the NY/Neo style my family loves on hold and try again with the thin crust. Thanks again.
JG
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on February 06, 2005, 12:31:54 PM
While vacationing recently in Mexico, I had the luxury of someone else making pizza for me. Some time ago, I had given my daughter-in-law a basic Lehmann NY style pizza dough recipe and some basic hands-on instruction on how to make the dough based on that recipe. With practice, and making some basic modifications to the recipe (noted below), she has managed to be able to make pizzas that are far better than available at any of the local Mexican restaurants that offer pizza on their menus. Her success has not gone unnoticed and she is now being asked to instruct others who have sampled her pizza on how to make pizzas at home. The recipe she followed was essentially the Lehmann recipe that I posted at Reply #9 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.0.html.

The major change to the recipe is that all-purpose flour (11.5% protein) was substituted for the high-gluten flour called for in the recipe and the quantity of dough was increased to permit making two 14-inch pizzas. The flour change was made for a simple reason: all-purpose flour is the only "white" flour available at the retail level in most parts of Mexico (the other common flour being whole wheat). We had the option of trying to boost the protein content of the all-purpose flour by adding vital wheat gluten, but my daughter-in-law nixed the idea because she wanted to use only the local ingredients, not some "strange" substance I had brought with me from the U.S.

The dough was made using the "dough" feature of her 11-cup Cuisinart food processor (a fairly recent Cuisinart model), and the dough ball was sufficient (at about 26 oz.) to make two dough balls, each of which could be used to make a 14-inch pizza. The dough was refrigerated for about 24 hours at a nice cool temperature of around 42 degrees F. During that time, the dough hardly rose at all, even though the dough was at a temperature of over 90 degrees F when it went into the refrigerator (and despite the use of cold water).  After the 24-hour retardation, the dough was brought to room temperature (around 80 degrees F) in preparation for shaping. It took about 1 to 1 1/2 hours for the dough to reach the right condition for shaping. The dough was just about perfect in terms of elasticity, extensibility and ability to handle and shape and stretch into dough rounds. Each dough ball was shaped and stretched into a 14-inch round.

Both pizzas were baked in an Amana electric oven with a convection feature, using a combination of a pizza stone, which had been preheated for about an hour at around 500 degrees F, and a 14-inch pizza disk in one case and a 14-inch pizza screen in the second case. The first pizza, shown in the first photo below, was baked on the pizza disk (the first time I ever used such a disk) on the middle rack of the oven for about 7-8 minutes, following which the pizza was removed from the disk and placed on the pizza stone (at the bottom rack position) for about an additional 2-3 minutes to achieve increased bottom crust browning. The second pizza, shown in the second photo below, was baked in the same manner but using the pizza screen. Both pizzas used a sauce made from San Marzano tomatoes (DOP) that had been pureed in the food processor and cooked at low heat until enough liquid had evaporated to make a thick sauce. Dried oregano and basil, fresh garlic, dried red pepper flakes, and a small amount of sugar were added to the sauce for flavoring. The toppings were pre-cooked sausage (just until pink), sauteed mushrooms, diced red peppers, olive oil, and mozzarella cheese that had been purchased in block form from the nearest Sam's/Wal-Mart and then shredded. I might have liked to add some pepperoni slices, but the quality of Mexican pepperoni is below just about any pepperoni available in the U.S. Next time, I will just have to bring a U.S. brand with me to Mexico.

Both pizzas turned out very well and were very tasty and well received considering that all-purpose flour was used. The convection feature was also very useful, I thought. In fact, my daughter-in-law mentioned that she has been able to bake two 14-inch pizzas simultaneously using two preheated pizza stones, with good results, as a consequence of using the convection feature. At some point, I'd like to come up with a 16-inch Lehmann formulation using all-purpose flour that produces a crust of the same thickness as the two 14-inch pizzas my daughter-in-law made. I still believe that high-gluten flour and bread flour are more apt to produce better flavor and crust texture than all-purpose flour, but having a recipe available to use all-purpose flour is still a good thing to have when the other flours are not available for use.

Peter

Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on February 25, 2005, 04:29:51 PM
Recently, in another thread (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,949.0.html), Yvonne Marie, a baker, indicated an interest in a NY style dough recipe for an 18-inch NY style pizza.

Today, I took the basic Lehmann NY style dough recipe and, using the baker's percents, reformulated it for the 18-inch size and with a hydration percent of 63%. Although as a baker Yvonne Marie is unlikely to need volume measurements, I nonetheless weighed the flour and water on my digital scale as carefully as possible and have indicated those measurements also in the recipe posted below, for the benefit of those who may not have a scale but have experience in making minor adjustments to the dough as necessary during processing to achieve the desired characteristics of a properly kneaded dough. The processing techniques are essentially the same as those discussed in detail elsewhere in this thread, although I suspect Yvonne Marie will use a stand mixer to knead a dough of the weight produced by this formulation--almost 27 ounces (26.7 oz., to be a bit more exact). It's also possible that she will choose to use a cooler rather than a refrigerator for the retardation of the dough.

Here's the 18-inch formulation, along with the baker's percents:

Flour, high-gluten (100%), 16.10 oz. (about 3 3/4 c. plus 1 t.)
Water (63%), 10.15 oz. (1 1/4 c.)
Salt (1.75%), 0.28 oz. (a bit less than 1 1/2 t.)
Oil (1%), 0.16 oz. (1 t.)
IDY (0.25%), 0.04 oz. (3/8 t.)
Thickness factor (TF) = 0.105

If Yvonne Marie decides to test out this particular formulation, I hope that she will report back to us on her results, one way or the other, so that we will know whether the recipe has merit in the 18-inch size.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on February 25, 2005, 04:43:27 PM
While I had my calculator and digital scale out to work up an 18-inch NY style dough formulation for Yvonne Marie (see the last post), I also decided to reformulate the basic Lehmann NY style dough recipe for a 17-inch style. One of our fellow members, Crusty, had previously attempted a 17-inch pizza on a screen but using one of the 16-inch dough recipes I had posted. To the extent he would like to try out a formulation for the 17-inch size, I have posted the ingredients and amounts below, along with the baker's percents. The 17-inch formulation will produce a dough ball weight of almost 24 oz. (23.8 oz., to be a bit more exact). I have also posted the volume measurements for those who do not have a scale. The hydration percent I chose was 63%.

Flour, high-gluten (100%), 14.35 oz. (3 1/3 c. plus 1T.)
Water (63%), 9.05 oz. (1 1/8 c.)
Salt (1.75%). 0.25 oz. (a bit more than 1 1/4 t.)
Oil (1%), 0.14 oz. (7/8 t.)
IDY (0.25%), 0.04 oz. (a bit more than 1/3 t.)
Thickness factor (TF) = 0.105

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Crusty on February 26, 2005, 10:47:09 AM
 Thanks Peter.  I made a 16" pie last night  directly on the stone and it came out great. This was the same dough formulation I used and had stretched to 17" on the screen.   I did not use the screen but may try it again.

I created the table below for hydration levels between 65-60% and pies ranging from 17 down to 12 inches.

Questions:

1. Does the matrix  look correct?

2. All of these carry a .10 TF.  I would like to learn more about the relative TF numbers.  Ideally I would like to make NY Style Street pizzza that has a good size rim and a center that can carry its own weight and be folded.  What TF would you recommend?

3. Where can I find a table that relates % to volumetric quanitites....eg.,   .04oz. yeast ??....what qty is that?



Thanks, Crusty

Hyd. 65%    64%      63%     62%    61%     60%               
 
17   22.69   22.69   22.69   22.69   22.69   22.69
                 
f     13.50   13.58   13.67   13.75   13.83   13.92
w     8.78      8.69    8.61     8.52     8.44     8.35
y      0.03      0.03    0.03     0.03     0.03     0.03
o      0.14      0.14    0.14     0.14     0.14     0.14
s      0.24      0.24    0.24     0.24     0.24     0.24
                 
                 
16   20.10   20.10   20.10   20.10   20.10   20.10
                 
f      11.96   12.03   12.11   12.18   12.25   12.33
w      7.78     7.70     7.63     7.55     7.47     7.40
y       0.03     0.03     0.03     0.03     0.03     0.03
o       0.12     0.12     0.12     0.12     0.12     0.12
s       0.21     0.21     0.21     0.21     0.21     0.22
                 
                 
15   17.66   17.66   17.66   17.66   17.66   17.66
                 
f      10.51   10.58   10.64   10.70   10.77   10.84
w      6.83     6.77     6.70   6.64   6.57   6.50
y       0.03     0.03     0.03   0.03   0.03   0.03
o       0.11     0.11     0.11   0.11   0.11   0.11
s       0.18     0.19     0.19   0.19   0.19   0.19
                 
                 
14   15.39   15.39   15.39   15.39   15.39   15.39
                 
f        9.16   9.21   9.27   9.32   9.38   9.44
w      5.95   5.90   5.84   5.78   5.72   5.66
y       0.02   0.02   0.02   0.02   0.02   0.02
o       0.09   0.09   0.09   0.09   0.09   0.09
s       0.16   0.16   0.16   0.16   0.16   0.17
                 
                 
13   13.27   13.27   13.27   13.27   13.27   13.27
                 
f       7.90   7.94   7.99   8.04   8.09   8.14
w     5.13   5.08   5.03   4.98   4.93   4.88
y      0.02   0.02   0.02   0.02   0.02   0.02
o      0.08   0.08   0.08   0.08   0.08   0.08
s      0.14   0.14   0.14   0.14   0.14   0.14
                 
                 
12   11.30   11.30   11.30   11.30   11.30   11.30
                 
f        6.73   6.77   6.81   6.85   6.89   6.93
w      4.37   4.33   4.29   4.25   4.20   4.16
y       0.02   0.02   0.02   0.02   0.02   0.02
o       0.07   0.07   0.07   0.07   0.07   0.07
s       0.12   0.12   0.12   0.12   0.12   0.12
                 
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on February 26, 2005, 02:03:07 PM
Crusty,

Thank you for all your hard work in creating the matrix. It should come in handy to those who want to make or experiment with the Lehmann NY style dough in different weights/sizes and with different hydration percentages and using the standard thickness factor, TF, for a "thin" crust pizza.

I checked out your data for the 17-inch size and spot checked data in the rest of the tables and it looks like your calculations are correct. My data for the 17-inch Lehmann dough (in a recent post) was a bit different than yours because I had used a thickness factor (TF) of 0.105 (more on this subject below).

Your calculations do a great job of highlighting how difficult it is to deal with small weights of ingredients like yeast, salt, oil (and sugar, when used). Even for flour and water, which weigh much more than the rest of the ingredients, it is hard to get great accuracy. For example, my digital scale is accurate to 0.05 oz., but it can't weigh ingredients any more exactly than that. That is, it can exactly weigh, say 13.50 oz., but it can't exactly weigh 13.49 oz. or 13.51 oz. I usually weigh to the nearest 0.05 oz. or tweak the amount to get it in between the 0-0.05 range. To get better accuracy, I would need a considerably more expensive scale, and to weigh amounts like 0.04 oz., I would need a scale like the Frieling 400 scale that pftaylor is in the process of buying. Since many of our members and readers may not have scales (digital or otherwise) and even for those of us who do but can't weigh the small amounts of lightweight ingredients, we rely on weight-volume conversion data instead.

In the case of ingredients like yeast, sugar, salt and oil, Steve and others on this forum (including myself in the case of IDY) actually weighed larger quantities of such ingredients and converted from weights to volume. In part, this was done because online conversions sites are inconsistent and unreliable in making such conversions. I set forth the conversion data for the abovementioned ingredients at Reply #29 on this thread, and it is that data that I use to convert small quantities like 0.04 oz. to volume measurements. Even then, the conversions aren't one hundred percent accurate. You will frequently get volumes that don't fit within the standard measuring spoon sizes of 1/8, 1/4. 1/2, 1 t., and 1 T. (and combinations thereof). In such cases, I use the closest spoon sizes and approximations.

As for the thickness factor TF, the values I have been using have been pretty much those proposed by people like Tom Lehmann and Big Dave. I started with 0.10 for the Lehmann NY "thin" style and tweaked it based on experience, finally coming up with a "personalized" value of 0.105. For someone else, the number could be higher or lower. I discussed how to come up with a "personal" TF at Reply #42 on this thread. To do this, you have to experiment with different dough ball sizes and note the weights of each dough ball in relation to the diameter of the pizza you are trying to make. When you finally get the dough ball weight that you consider ideal for a particular size (diameter) pizza, you solve for TF in this expression:

                                                     TF = W/(3.14 x R x R),

where W is the weight of the "ideal" dough ball and R is the radius of the pizza for which the dough ball is used. So, for example, if you found the ideal dough ball weight for a 16-inch pizza to be 22 oz., the thickness factor TF would have a value of 22 divided by 200.96, or 0.109. Once you have this number, you can use it to calculate the dough ball weight for any other size (diameter) pizza. In that case, you simply rearrange the above expression and solve for W, specifically,

                                                     W = 3.14 x R x R x 0.109.

Peter

Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Crusty on February 27, 2005, 12:44:37 PM
My best effort at  NY Style Street Pie.....16 inches....Stanislaus full red pizza sauce, Grande 100% whole milk mozz, Penzey's Turkish Oregano.....cooked on stone that was preheated to 550 for 1.5 hours.....it
was great!

Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: pftaylor on February 27, 2005, 12:56:14 PM
Crusty,
It looks like you are now trapped in a vicious cycle. One where each pie you make gets better and better. I want to do two things after looking at your latest effort - make a pie and go for a brisk walk to work off some extra cals.

BTW, it looks just like a NY street pie.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: canadave on February 27, 2005, 01:22:15 PM
Wow....now THAT is a NY pie right there.  It'd look right at home in the window of any NY street pizzeria :)  Great job!

Dave
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on February 27, 2005, 01:27:16 PM
Nice job, Crusty.

Would you mind telling us what the keys were to making such a great looking pizza? And which recipe you used?

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Crusty on February 27, 2005, 02:26:58 PM
The recipe I used was as follows (thanks to Pete-zza and Tom Lehman):

11.8 oz KASL
7.7 oz spring water at 76degrees to acheive a final dough temp of 80-85
1/4t IDY
3/4 t Olive Oil
3/4 t salt

Mixed for 2 min on stir, added OO then 2 min on stir, final mix was 7 min on 3 setting out of 10.  This dough was refrigerated for 44 hours. Brought out to get to room temp for approx 1.5 hours to get to 55 degrees.  Baked directly on stone.

Critical factors:

1. 24 hours or more in refirgerator
2. dough handling...I press firmly on the center because I do not want bubbles and gentle on the outer rim.
3. a stone and oven that have been preheating for 1.5 hours.
4. high gluten KASL, stanislaus tomatoes, grande cheese


Regards,

Crusty






Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: canadave on February 27, 2005, 02:31:06 PM
Crusty,

Thanks for the description.  One last question: what temperature did you heat the oven to?

Dave
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Crusty on February 27, 2005, 02:38:41 PM
My oven thermometer that is placed on the stone indicated about 550.  My oven guage goes up to 500 then the next stop is broil.  I set the knob to almost broil to get to this level.

Also, my stone is from bakingstone.com and is custom cut to 17"x20".


Crusty
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: canadave on February 27, 2005, 02:41:18 PM
Excellent...I figured you were probably up around 550.  Thanks for confirming that.

Next time, let's see some pics of the underside and inside of the crust! ;)

Dave
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Crusty on February 27, 2005, 03:03:11 PM
More pics....Ny Style street pie....
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Crusty on March 06, 2005, 10:25:18 AM
My latest NY Stlye Street Pies......note the cheese on the last pie.......I used Sargento vs Grande....the cheese blisters/burns quite a bit....
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: pftaylor on March 06, 2005, 10:45:28 AM
Wow! They look fabulous!
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: friz78 on March 06, 2005, 12:02:08 PM
Beautiful.  Absolutely beautiful.  Crusty, you got it goin' my man!!
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: wvpizzaman on March 06, 2005, 01:16:40 PM
My best effort at  NY Style Street Pie.....16 inches....Stanislaus full red pizza sauce, Grande 100% whole milk mozz, Penzey's Turkish Oregano.....cooked on stone that was preheated to 550 for 1.5 hours.....it
was great!



Crusty, awesome work my friend! 
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on March 06, 2005, 04:08:40 PM
Crusty,

Kudos on a job well done :).

In an earlier effort, you used Grande but later switched to Sargento, which you indicate browns more. Will that cause you to go back to Grande?

Also, I wondered whether you experienced any problems with dough tearing, as you did recently when you made 5 Lehmann NY style dough balls at about the same time? Or if you determined the cause of tearing?

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Crusty on March 06, 2005, 05:28:42 PM
Pete-zza, for NY Style Street Pizza I will use Grande exclusively.  Grande performs to perfection and tastes great.  My first experience with Grande seemed too salty.  I ordered from Vern's(great folks), received the package and used it soon thereafter.  Perhaps the aging was a factor but it was soft and too salty.  After aging in the refirgerator and freezer it was much better regarding the saltiness and firmness but always on target regarding performance.  I will always use Grande 100% whole milk to make NY Style Street pies.  (my next venture is Papa Del's....any thoughts on recipe, steps etc..??)

Last night I made 6 pies and after experiencing tearing a few times (in previous attempts) I thought I should pull the dough from the cooler in phases.  All I can say is that last night it worked.  I pulled 2 out 1.5 hours ahead of bake time and two more 30 minutes later etc.  The ambient conditions were 74F/40%H.

Also, for the first time I tried a puff of air under the dough before going into the oven.  This worked great.

Regards,

Anthony
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: friz78 on March 06, 2005, 06:33:33 PM
I concur with Crusty on the Grande cheese.  I recently experimented with some other whole milk mozzarella cheeses and it wasn't even close.  I went back to Grande about a week ago (bought a 5 lb. block) and the taste difference is considerable.  My family has also provided the same feedback.
Friz
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on March 07, 2005, 02:03:30 PM
Cheesy,

Welcome to the forum.

If you are referring to the Lehmann NY style dough, the amount of salt is that which Tom Lehmann specifies in his basic recipe. The baker's percent for salt in his recipe is 1.75%, which is pretty much near the middle of the range that Lehmann typically uses as a benchmark for salt (around 1.5-2.5%). In adapting the Lehmann recipe for home use I did not change the baker's percent for salt inasmuch as I was trying to stay within the parameters of his recipe.

There's no reason why you can't try a smaller amount of salt if you wish, and you should feel free to experiment with the salt levels to meet your personal needs.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: JAG on March 08, 2005, 11:21:49 AM
To All,

Some or everyone may already know this but I just found out.

I was talking to a Grande rep. at the NAPICS show in Columbus and was asking him about overbrowning of cheeses. He stated that their cheese under normal baking conditions will not overbrown like the competitors cheeses. He claimed that other cheese mfg's add a non clumping agent to their shredded cheese which probably causes the overbrowning and there is nothing added to Grande cheese to prevent clumping therefore allowing their cheese to bake properly and not brown.

Also, at the NAPICS show there was a full blown test kitchen set up and I got to spend about a day with Tom Lehmann and Big Dave Ostrander making dough and baking pizzas. Unfortunately it was not a one on one session since the kitchen was open to attendees, but never the less a true learning experience.

JG
 
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on March 08, 2005, 12:08:52 PM
JG,

Thanks for sharing your experience at the Lehmann/Big Dave pizza making session. I realize that they would be using professional mixers, etc., but did you learn anything that would help us as home pizza makers? Like amount of kneading required, what the dough balls should look like, fermentation/retardation. etc.?

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: JAG on March 08, 2005, 02:11:32 PM
All,

             Dave and Tom used Dave's "old faithful" for their dough making. Dave's % were slightly different than those posted back in Nov. but not by much. Dave's method for dough making is basically what I've seen here. Use water at temp to achieve 80-85 deg. finished dough, then mix salt and sugar with water with a wisk, just to get the water circulating. while this is blending weigh out yeast and add yeast directly to flour in mixing bowl, add water mixture to flour/yeast and begin mixing. Tom suggested to use low setting due to the density of the dough. The dough was mixed for about two minutes then the olive oil was added. Tom suggested a total mix time of ten minutes max, so as to not over work the dough.  After ten minutes the dough was removed and balled up, oiled (olive) and placed on cookie sheets and sealed with large food grade bags,  acquired from GFS(a sponsor of the kitchen supplies).
             The look and feel of the dough should be soft and supple like a babys bottom yet somewhat tacky to the touch.
             The retardation period ranged from 24-72 hours. Fermentation increases over time to what I assume to be 36 hrs. and then after this there is a degredation of the fermentation process leading to a 'blown dough" which was explained as yeast death after ~72 hrs. (dead yeast-bad dough)

This dough was very pliable and easy to toss and/or stretch as Joe Carlucci (sp) demonstrated in an impromptu tossing demo.
I did ask Tom if there was any recipe modifications that could be made to produce a coal fired crust from a home oven. The answer was disappointing but expected, "no" the very high temps of of the coal ovens are needed to produce that style of crust :'(

These are the basics, which they were probably trying to adhere to for the general audience but very informative anyway.

Not to get off on a tangent but the question of deck/conveyor finished crust was brought up. If the conveyor is properly set up there is no discernable difference between the two ovens finished crusts. Both Tom and Dave sat down at a different event and did a blind taste/texture test, and both commented they could not tell a difference in the two styles of ovens

On a side note, I would like to say that these to GENTLEMEN were two of the most friendly and helpful people I have ever met!!!!!

I will post Dave's recipe asap, unfortunately I don't have it handy.

John
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on March 30, 2005, 05:30:45 PM
One of the things that has been on my "pizza to do" list for some time has been to make a par-baked (aka pre-baked) crust based on Tom Lehmann's NY style dough recipe. I realize that making a par-baked crust is a step down in quality from a freshly made one, but there are times when it might be useful nonetheless to make a few par-baked crusts in advance to have them at the ready when the appropriate occasions arise. Maybe it's a party where there is a need to make several pizzas but not the time to do all the advanced prep work and make them in real time. Or maybe it's to make a fairly decent pizza for the kids and their friends without having to order out. Or maybe you are just too tired to make a pizza from scratch.

With the above thoughts in mind, I did a little bit of homework on par-baked crusts. What was particularly helpful was Tom Lehmann's own writings on the subject. Armed with that information, I decided to use a scaled-down version of Tom's NY style dough recipe for my experiment in par-baking a crust. For the specific recipe, I used fellow member Crusty's table (posted elsewhere on this thread) for a 16-inch pizza skin. For purposes of recapitulation, the recipe I used was as follows:

Flour (King Arthur Sir Lancelot high-gluten), 12.03 oz. (about 2 3/4 c. plus 1 T.)
Water (63%), 7.63 oz. (between 7/8 and 1 c.)
Salt, 0.21 oz. (a bit over 1 t.)
Oil, 0.12 oz. (a bit over 3/4 t.)
IDY (instant dry yeast), 0.03 oz. (a bit over 1/3 t.)
Dough ball weight = about 20 oz.
TF = 0.10

The processing of the dough was pretty straightforward: In the bowl of a stand mixer fitted with a dough hook, add the salt to the water (temperature adjusted to achieve a finished dough temperature of around 80 degrees F), and stir or whisk until the salt is dissolved. Then combine the flour and the IDY and gradually add to the bowl while the mixer is operating at low or stir speed. If necessary, use a spatula to scrape down the sides of the bowl so that the flour is directed into the path of the dough hook. When the bulk of the flour has been taken up into the dough ball, about 2 minutes, add the oil and continue to knead, at low speed, for about another 2 minutes. Increase the mixer speed to medium and continue kneading the dough for about 6-7 minutes, or until the dough is smooth and elastic without any tears on the outer surface, and not wet or sticky but rather tacky. Remove the dough ball from the mixer bowl and knead by hand for about a minute to shape the dough into a smooth round ball. Place the dough ball in a suitable container (e.g., a plastic storage bag or bowl), and place into the refrigerator.

Tom Lehmann recommends that a dough intended to be make into a par-baked crust be refrigerated for around 48 hours. The underlying purpose of the long retardation is to minimize the possibility of bubbles forming in the dough during baking. So I did as Tom advises. When I removed the dough from the refrigerator after the 48-hour time period, I let it warm up at room temperature for about 2 hours, or until the temperature of the dough had risen to around 57 degrees F. Tom Lehmann recommends that a skin to be par-baked be baked using a pizza screen or disk (in my case, a 16-inch screen), at an oven temperature of around 400 degrees F, for about 4-5 minutes, or until the dough sets up and is just starting to turn light brown. John Correll, an expert on pizza operations, recommends that the crust be removed from the oven just before that point. I flipped a coin and John won. As the crust was par-baking, I watched it very carefully to see if any bubbles were forming, particularly since I did not dock the dough in advance (as commercial operators do). And a few bubbles did form. I just opened the oven door and punctured the bubbles with a metal skewer. No harm done.

The first photo below shows the crust after it came out of the oven. To cool the par-baked crust I flipped it oven onto a wire rack. Once it had cooled, I wrapped it completely with plastic wrap and put it into the refrigerator. Once in the refrigerator, the par-baked crust should last for about 5 days. Beyond that, mold may set in. The par-baked crust can also be frozen, either alone or with toppings, although it is generally not a good idea to load it up with toppings, such as vegetables, that can lead to a soggy mess during baking (although sauteeing the vegetables helps alleviate this problem some). The crust can also be fully dressed and refrigerated (unfrozen), subject to the limitations mentioned above. Since this was my first experience in making a par-baked crust, I opted for simply refrigerating the par-baked crust and dressing and baking it at a later time.

After 4 days in the refrigerator, I removed the par-baked crust and set it at room temperature, still covered in the plastic wrap (to keep the crust from drying out), while the oven came up to temperature for baking the dressed crust, about 450 degrees F. I chose to bake the dressed pizza on a pizza stone, which I placed at the middle rack level of my oven. When I was ready to bake, I removed the plastic wrap from the par-baked crust, lightly oiled the surface of the crust with olive oil, and added the rest of the ingredients (tomato sauce, cheese and pepperoni). I baked the pizza on the stone for about 7-8 minutes, at which time I turned on the broiler and let the pizza bake for another minute or two under the broiler until the crust had taken on a bit more color. (Alternatively, the pizza can be completely baked on a pizza screen or disk, i.e., without using the stone.) The second photo shows the pizza once it was removed from the oven. The final photo shows a typical slice.

It should come as no surprise that the finished pizza was not quite as good as one made from a fresh dough in real time. However, it was still good, and likely to be well received by those who sample it. The crust was chewy with a bit of crunch at the rim, but the rim wasn't nearly as open and airy as a freshly made crust that has been allowed to bake at very high heat. A typical slice also didn't quite have the "drooping tip" that is characteristic of a NY slice, but that was to be expected since the par-baked crust was already firm and fully set by the time it was dressed to finish baking and no amount of additional baking was about to change that.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on April 06, 2005, 02:37:00 PM
Last night, I participated in a PMQ online chat in which Tom Lehmann offered to answer questions about dough, and frozen pizzas and doughs in particular. I participated because one of the things I have been meaning to do for some time is to make a frozen version of the Lehmann NY style dough--for those occasions where it may come in handy to have a few spare dough balls on hand. I had already read a considerable amount of Tom's writings on this topic, and reported on the subject on several occasions on this forum myself, but most of what he has written has been for professionals, such as commissaries that make frozen dough balls for use by pizza operators who do not want to make their own dough balls. And those commissaries have all the latest equipment for freezing dough balls quickly (which is important to minimizing damage to the yeast), using either flash freezing that gets down below -25 degrees F, and maybe even lower when cryogenic freezing techniques are used.

The basic question I posed to Tom was what I should pay close attention to if I were to experiment with making frozen dough in a home setting. I intentionally left my question open ended so that I wouldn't bias the response. Tom's answer was that I should forget about trying to make frozen dough at home, saying that it was hard enough just to make ice cubes in a home freezer, never mind trying to freeze one pound balls of dough. His advice was to freeze the crust by itself, then top it, freeze it again, and then wrap. Doing this, he added, the pizza would last for about 2 weeks. He also made a point to mention that I should go easy on the veggies as they do not freeze well in the home freezer, and that they get all soft and mushy when the pizza is baked.

Interestingly, there was also some discussion on efforts being undertaken by the industry to come up with high-moisture vegetables for frozen pizzas in which part of the moisture has been removed from the vegetables without damaging their cellular structures, using freeze drying techniques that should lead to less wetness and mushyness on the pizzas. In due course, I think we can expect to hear a lot more about this and possibly even start to look for sources ourselves for our own home-made frozen pizzas. One of the biggest concerns among the pizza chains and mom and pop pizza operators alike is the progress that the frozen pizza industry has made in recent years in coming up with pizzas, like the DiGiorno frozen pizzas and the new hearth-style "brick oven" frozen pizzas, that are closing in on the quality of freshly baked pizzas, and are likely to close the gap even further with time since the big players, like DiGiorno's, are owned by well-financed corporate parents with big R&D budgets. Trying to improve the quality of toppings for frozen pizzas, such as reduced-moisture vegetables, is just one step in this direction.

As for frozen doughs, I plan at some point to give it a serious try, using Tom Lehmann's basic NY style dough recipe and some modified version of his instructions on how to make frozen doughs.  After all, we have been able to convert his industrial-sized NY style dough recipe to home-sized recipes and make his pizzas with good results, all without the benefit of all the fancy gear that the industry uses. I'm hopeful that we may also be able to make decent frozen dough versions at home using the same degree of determination. Some of our members (Friz, bortz and Ian come to mind) have already indicated efforts and progress along these lines, and I invite others to experiment also with frozen versions of the Lehmann dough and to report back to us as objectively as possible on their results and how they specifically achieved them so that our members can benefit from their experiences.

Peter 
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: duckjob on April 06, 2005, 03:49:55 PM
I'll do a couple experimental pizzas in the next week or two. My experimentation with my BBQ didn't go that well, and I think i'm going to hold off on continuing that until I break down and buy an infared thermometer. My family would definately like the ability to take one of my pizzas out of the freezer and cook it.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on April 06, 2005, 08:56:57 PM
From time to time, fellow member pftaylor has asked me to consider using a starter with the Lehmann NY style dough to see if it will improve the flavor of the finished crust, as it has apparently been done with his crust based on the Raquel recipe. Also, recently, fellow member PizzaSuperFreak has been bemoaning the lack of flavor in the Lehmann crust even though he seems otherwise to be pleased with it. I have also wondered aloud on more than one occasion on this forum whether the use of a starter might be beneficial to a Lehmann NY style dough, especially a non-retarded version, even though Tom Lehmann has not ever suggested doing same with his recipe, to the best of my knowledge. So, starting late last night, I decided to put the matter to the test.

For purposes of the experiment, I decided to make a room-temperature dough with a long overnight and daytime rise for a 13-inch “test” pizza. Using the mathematical approaches I have described several times before, I calculated that I would need a dough ball of between 13-14 oz., including the starter. The recipe and ingredients and amounts I settled upon were as follows:

Flour (KASL high-gluten flour), 8.10 oz. (about 1 3/4 c. plus 5 t.)
Water (temp. adjusted to achieve a finished dough temp. of around 80 degrees F), 5.05 oz. (about 5/8 c.)
Salt, 0.12 oz. (5/8 t.)
Olive oil, 0.08 oz. (1/2 t.)
IDY, 0.004 oz. (a pinch between the thumb and forefinger)
Starter (natural Caputo 00 starter), 0.75 oz. (about 1 1/2 T.)
TF = 0.105

A few things will be noted from the formulation stated above. One is the extremely small amount of IDY, and second is the use of the Caputo 00 natural starter. The Caputo 00 starter was selected only because that is the only starter that I have actively working at the moment. However, I’m fairly confident that other starters will work also. The small amount of yeast was to be sure that the dough would ferment in the event the Caputo 00 starter, which had only been refreshed for a short while, failed to contribute any significant leavening power to the dough. I also wanted to test whether the commercial yeast would in any way negate the flavor-enhancing effects of the natural starter, which has been my experience when using both (as witnessed by my experiments at the Caputo 00 thread, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,986.0.html (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,986.0.html)). Since 0.004 oz. of IDY represents 1/25 of a teaspoon, which is not measurable with anything at my disposal, I simply took a very small pinch between my thumb and forefinger. To be sure that such a small amount of yeast would not get trapped in a small corner of the dough, I combined it with the flour and whisked and stirred it thoroughly into the flour until it was uniformly dispersed.

The dough itself was prepared in a fairly standard manner. The salt was dissolved in the water, the flour/IDY mixture was gradually added along with the starter and mixed at “Stir”speed for about 2 minutes, the olive oil was added and kneaded into the dough for about another 2 minutes, the dough was then kneaded at the number 2 setting for about another 2 minutes, and the finished dough was kneaded by hand for about another 30 seconds to form a nice, smooth round ball. At the end of this process, the dough was very soft and smooth. It weighed a bit over 14 oz. and had a finished dough temperature of 80.7 degrees F. I placed the dough, without oiling it, into a plastic storage bag, and placed the bag on my kitchen countertop late last night. Very quickly, I noticed that the dough was starting to spread. By morning, it was like a pancake.

The first two photos below show (maybe not too clearly) how the dough had spread. These photos are noteworthy in their own respect, since they shows a novel technique I used to manage the dough while it sat on my countertop. To contain the dough, I put it into a large freezer storage bag equipped with a slider used to close the storage bag. I moved the slider to almost its fully closed position and poked a straw into the bag just in front of the slider. As I blew into the straw to inflate the bag, I moved the slider to its fully closed position just as I pulled the straw out. This created a balloon-like proofing bag for the dough, and made it unnecessary to oil it to keep a crust from forming. I could also see at all times what was happening to the dough. The bag I used is a Hefty One-Zip bag. One of the nice features of this storage bag is that it is inexpensive. It can also be washed and reused, and can be used for retarded doughs also, if so desired.

After an initial rise of 12 hours, I examined the dough and saw that it was very soft and moist. It also had the characteristic odor of sourdough. I removed the dough from the bag and reballed it, using just a very small amount of bench flour to be able to work with it. It was clearly still elastic at this point, so I returned it to the storage bag and placed it back on my kitchen countertop. It remained there for about another 6 hours, during which time it rose by about double and clearly exhibited a bubbling activity. Since the dough was still soft and moist, I used a small amount of bench flour to dust the dough ball so that I could stretch it out to around 13 inches. It was very extensible, maybe even a little too extensible. But I was able to easily shape it into a 13-inch skin. After I had dressed the pizza (see the third photo), it was baked directly on a pizza stone that had been preheated for about an hour at around 500-550 degrees F. The pizza was baked for about 5 minutes on the stone, whereupon it was placed for about a minute or two under the broiler, which I had turned on after about 4 minutes into the baking process. The final two photos show the finished pizza and a typical slice.

The pizza was quite good. The crust was fairly consistent with the NY style of crust in that it was chewy in the center part and open and airy at the rim, as I expected it might be from using a high hydration percent (around 63%). The crust also had more flavor than a typical Lehmann crust although it was not as intense and potent as the crusts I made recently using the Caputo 00 flour and the natural Caputo 00 starter. The crust also didn’t brown as much as the typical Lehmann crust, which suggests that the overall 18-hour fermentation/ripening period may have been too long. One thing I tried that improved the taste and crust coloration of the pizza was to return it to the oven about 10 minutes after it was finished baking. This was a tip offered up recently by quido (John) and it worked quite well in that it made the crust and the rim crunchier, as I prefer it. The oven was off when I did this but there was sufficient remnant heat in the stone to brown up the crust fairly quickly. In this respect, it is like the technique used by Friz when he removes the entire stone from the oven with the baked pizza still on it.

But what is most important is what I learned from the experiment. I learned that it possible to make a room-temperature Lehmann NY style dough and enhance its flavor profile by using a starter. But I also think that there is more work to be done to improve the crust even further. A few possibilities for improving the crust come to mind. First is to use the same recipe but reduce the overall fermentation/ripening time. Second, is to use only a starter, without any commercial yeast, mainly to see if the flavor profile is improved, as was the case when I made the Caputo crusts using only the Caputo natural 00 starter. On this score, I invite pftaylor to do the same with his Raquel dough to see if the flavor is enhanced. Who knows? Maybe he will end up with Raquel on Steroids. Third is to consider Cheesy’s suggestion as reported in another thread to lower the hydration a bit, which can be easily accomplished by simply using a bit less water. At this point, I’m inclined to go with only the natural starter (i.e., no commercial yeast) and a reduced hydration level.

C'mon, Igor, back to the laboratory while it's still dark.

Peter




Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: pftaylor on April 06, 2005, 09:50:31 PM
Pete-zza,
You changed the rules of the game again.

Just as I was getting satisfied (lazy) at my station in life with Raquel you have brought up an irresistable aspect of the game worthy of inspection. Here's my plan, I will unleash the Viking hoard (starter out of fridge & refreshed) tonight so that by tomorrow afternoon it will be in an angry mood. Perfect for KASL pillaging. I'll start the mixing process without the aid of a cheat (commercial yeast) and keep everything else the same.

I'll report back Friday night. I have a date with Raquel.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on April 07, 2005, 08:33:56 AM
pft,

One of the things I want to remind you of is that when I used the starter with the Lehmann dough, the dough was fermented the entire time at room temperature, not in the refrigerator. The same was also true when I made the Caputo 00 doughs using the natural Caputo 00 starter. When I used to make sourdough breads using only a natural starter, there was usually a fermentation period at room temperature of several hours, an autolyse or two, and then a period of overnight retardation in the refrigerator, followed by a final rise. The amount of starter was around 2/3 c. for 17 oz. of flour.

I mention all of the above since I don't have a good feel how your dough will turn out if you use just a natural starter and go directly to retardation. I don't ever recall having tried that. So, unless you let the dough rise before retardation, it may take longer for the dough to become workable once it comes out of the refrigerator. The natural yeast will still be alive but sleepy. In any event, I think it would be useful to know one way or another whether a dough based on a starter only is enough for a dough that goes into the refrigerator right after kneading. Your starter seems to be strong, so it would make a good test.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: pftaylor on April 07, 2005, 09:16:06 AM
Pete-zza,
I have no bias as to a particular dough management process. Other than the one I'm used to from a "feel" perspective. But I'm willing to extend.

So, why don't you consider how you would like for experiment to proceed and I'll be glad to accomodate. I can produce two dough balls today so we could vary one from the other based on your recommendation. There are numerous approaches; counter/counter-cold-counter/cold-counter, etc type rises.

Let me know which combination you would like to see and I'll take plenty of pictures.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on April 07, 2005, 09:49:47 AM
pft,

I appreciate your willingness to conduct a few experiments with your Raquel recipe, since they may even help improve use of the Lehmann NY style dough. 

I'm a bit hesitant to tell you to modify what appears to have been a great success with your Raquel recipe, but there are a couple of experiments that might teach us something about using starters without supplementation by commercial yeast. One experiment would be to use a starter, such as your Patsy's starter, in your basic Raquel recipe and use your usual preparation techniques from that point forward. A second experiment would be to use the same starter in your Raquel recipe, let the dough rise at room temperature until about doubled in volume (which could take 3-4 hours based on my prior experience making sourdough bread), and then go into the refrigerator for an overnight rise, followed by your usual preparation from that point forward. In both cases, the objective would be to see if using a starter only provides better crust flavor.  It's even quite possible, especially with the second experiment, that the flavor enhancement could be too much--like a potent sourdough flavor. I think these two experiments frame the issue quite nicely, covering opposite ends of the spectrum. Any benefits beyond flavor would be an added plus.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: pftaylor on April 07, 2005, 10:34:24 AM
Pete-zza,
Before I go down a road less traveled, a minor point of clarification. Currently, Raquel calls for two tablespoons of Varasano starter. Should the quantity remain the same or should it be increased?

I'm leaning toward sticking at the current level of starter so that I do not have to adjust any other ingredient quantity.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on April 07, 2005, 10:53:07 AM
pft,

My instincts tell me that maybe more starter will be needed, particularly for the room temperature/retardation version (to get a fast enough rise), but why don't you stick with your current levels. You will perhaps discover fairly soon whether your current levels are sufficient.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: pftaylor on April 07, 2005, 11:58:58 AM
Done
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: MTPIZZA on April 07, 2005, 11:59:38 AM
The discussion regarding using starters for levening has brought me back to my sour dough days... I used to have a "mother" starter obtained through  the mail from an old stock started by a gentleman out West (his name escapes me)... after receiving the dry starter I got it going by diligence and care. After a while of feeding and letting it rest I used it in a pie... My experiements were so-so... When I stretched my dough I could notice that the dough was more slack and wet than when I used IDY. Holding it up to the light I could see that it had affected the "window or gluten web" that it created. The look was more "spidery" in appearance and less springy and uniform. However, even though the dough looked different and handled differently it produced a nice pie...no yeasty smell at all just the sweet aroma of the dough which I delighted in. I am still pondering going back to this method as the IDY does produce quite good results as well with less effort. But this thread has my mouth watering once again...
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: pftaylor on April 07, 2005, 12:14:00 PM
MTPIZZA,
Join us. This is exciting stuff.

We could use another set of eyes. The flavor addition of the Varasano starter is abundant. I couldn't imagine going back to a dough recipe which has only the flavor of commercial yeast (which I find to be bland).
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: pftaylor on April 07, 2005, 02:05:01 PM
Here are the series of photographs I captured this afternoon detailing the mixing steps for Pete-zza's Pizzas. One ball is in the fridge, the other is on the counter waiting to double. I will then punch down the counter ball and place in the fridge for the night.

1) Varasano preferment being weighed - Note the bubbles. It is ready
2) Mixture after 1 minute on "stir" (Then rest for 20 minutes)
3) After completed mixing procedure I measured the temperature to be near perfect at 80.4 degrees
4) Dough after 2nd rest period (15 minutes)
5) Main dough ball weighed 1lb 11.5oz
6) Close-up of main ball before splitting. Note the satin finish. Smooth as a baby's butt.
7) Next post!
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: pftaylor on April 07, 2005, 02:09:12 PM
8) Ball number one weighing 13.7 oz - A little less than my normal weight
9) Hand squeeze technique shown to demonstrate how I form a ball (and see if dough is right)
10) Ball number two weighing 13.7 oz
11) Balls placed in SS bowls & covered with reusable shower caps (a Pete-zza tip)
12) Side view of shower capped bowls before placing ball one in the fridge and leaving ball two on the counter for a warm rise.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: pftaylor on April 07, 2005, 07:18:01 PM
Here is a photograph of dough ball number 2 which just finished doubling on the counter in about 5 hours. Pete-zza Pizza's are starting to take shape. Phase one is complete.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: MTPIZZA on April 08, 2005, 07:51:37 AM
Ok Ok...I give in...I'm going to re-awake my starter... you are so right pft.. you can't beat the flavor of starter vs. yeast.. your pics have pulled me over the edge once again! Now I have to find where to get that Varisano starter on this site in case mine does'nt re-awaken...
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: pftaylor on April 08, 2005, 08:01:43 AM
MT,
I would follow Varasano & pizzanapoletana's recommendation and buy the starter from sourdo. You will not be sorry.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: pftaylor on April 08, 2005, 09:30:58 PM
Here are the pictures of the Pete-zza Pizzas.
1) Cold rise dough on left, counter rise on right
2) Dough balls waiting to be stretched. 4 hour counter rise after removal from fridge.
3) Ball number one (cold rise) stretched nicely to 16.75" with no problem at all
4) Ball number one bubbles
5) Pete-zza Pepperoni Pie
6) Pete-zza Pepperoni Pie different shot
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: pftaylor on April 08, 2005, 09:34:26 PM
7) Bottom char with blister holes
8) Minimal spring
9) Another money shot with minimal spring
10) Dough ball number two (counter rise)
11) Pete-zza Margherita
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: pftaylor on April 08, 2005, 09:35:56 PM
13) Better spring with counter raised ball (to be expected)
14) But not that much better spring
15) Blister holes...
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: pftaylor on April 08, 2005, 09:47:32 PM
Here are my comments regarding the pies. Normally I shoot for a 2 hour counter rise once the dough is pulled from the fridge. However, due to unavoidable circumstances the dough was subjected to a 4 hour counter rise after about 24 hours or more in the fridge. First, the crust tasted exactly like Patsy's in East Harlem. Specifically, the crust was a little softer and sort of stuck to our teeth momentarily before it melted. A great texture and one which is a dead ringer for a Patsy's crust. In fact, it tasted more like a Patsy's crust than my normal recipe which has much better spring but is much crunchier.

The dough handled well but not great. Certainly not as good as my normal dough. But again, the 4 hour counter rise probably diluted the quality a little bit. In terms of stretching, it was stable but not heroic. I started to get thin spots here and there. All in all, not a bad dough but probably bad execution on my part.

All the pictures I took while in NY show no spring to speak of at all. That was how these pies looked. Chewier rather than crispier crust. The surprise of the night were the return of the dreaded blister holes. Not exactly sure why or where they came from. I surmise it was because I took a little longer to prepare the pies which resulted in a longer preheat which means a hotter than normal grill.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on May 04, 2005, 12:03:43 AM
I am pleased to report that tonight I achieved what I consider to be a significant step forward in the evolution of the Lehmann NY style dough and pizza. I made a high quality autolyse-based Lehmann NY style dough using only a natural preferment (no commercial yeast). I had been thinking for some time how to do this, and I had been leaning toward using a small amount of preferment, as I had been doing with success in the Caputo 00 dough experiments. But it wasn't until I read a recent post of fellow member Bakerboy, a baker by profession, in which he stated that a lot of preferment would be necessary to achieve satisfactory fermentation in a retarded dough. Thankfully, he said how much--15% to 20% by weight of flour. Armed with that important piece of information (for which I am very grateful to Bakerboy), I decided to see if I could make a retarded Lehmann NY style dough using only a natural preferment. While I was at it, I decided to use an autolyse, and for the autolyse, I chose to use the Prof. Calvel approach as was recently explained to the membership by our good friend DINKS.

To make the dough, I used the basic recipe for a 16-inch skin posted at Reply #85 at this thread, and modified it to use 20% preferment by weight of flour. For the preferment, I used the natural Caputo 00 preferment I originally developed for use with the Caputo 00 flour but which I have been gradually converting to an all-purpose preferment by feeding it with an unbleached, nonbromated all-purpose flour. The final recipe (with baker's percents) was as follows:

100%, Flour, King Arthur Sir Lancelot high-gluten flour, 11.76 oz. (2 1/2 c. plus 2 T.)
63%, Water, 7.16 oz. (7/8 c.) (temp. adjusted to achieve a finished dough temp. of 80 degrees F)
1.75%, Salt, 0.20 oz. (1 t.)
1%, Olive oil, 0.11 oz. (a bit less than 3/4 t.)
20%, Natural Preferment, 2.27 oz. (a bit more than 5 T.)
Total dough weight: 21.11 oz.
TF = 0.105

The dough was processed in a KitchenAid stand mixer using the techniques as previously described at this thread for such a machine. However, as indicated above, this time I interjected the Calvel autolyse into the process. Although the Calvel autolyse has been described before at other threads (and most recently at the DiFara reverse engineering thread), the Calvel autolyse approach entails combining one-third of the flour (3.92 oz.), one-third of the water (2.39 oz.) and the natural preferment, following which the dough is subjected to an autolyse rest period of 30 minutes. Then the rest of the flour and the rest of the water are added to the dough and thoroughly combined, and the process is completed by adding the olive oil and kneading that into the dough (about 2 minutes) and finally the salt. The dough is then kneaded, for about 6-7 minutes, until the dough is smooth and elastic and without any tears on the outer surface, and the dough is sticky and not wet. At this point, the dough is subjected to another rest period of about 15 minutes.

As I worked through the above process, I used a spatula to facilitate the combining and mixing of the dough by directing the flour into the path of the dough hook and dislodging the dough when it tended to ride high on the dough hook. Since the preferment was like a pancake batter, I found it necessary to make slight adjustments to the flour (reflected in the above recipe) but I tried as much as possible to keep the dough on the sticky side. The finished dough was extremely soft and smooth, and it was clearly evident that the autolyse was largely responsible. The finished dough temperature was around 79 degrees F. The dough was very lightly coated with olive oil, flattened and placed into a plastic storage bag, and put into the refrigerator. It stayed there for about 45 hours.

At the end of the 45-hour retardation period, the dough was brought out to room temperature, placed on a work surface, coated lightly with a small amount of bench flour, and covered with a sheet of plastic wrap. When the dough temperature reached about 63 degrees F, in about two hours, it was shaped into a 16-inch skin. I had no difficulty whatsoever in shaping and stretching the dough. It was a bit more extensible than the most recent doughs I have made, but it showed no signs of tearing or developing weak or thin spots. I placed the skin on a 16-inch pizza screen and dressed the skin in a simple manner with 6-in-1 tomatoes, some LaRegina DOP San Marzano tomatoes, dried oregano, processed mozzarella cheese, some fresh mozzarella cheese, and a drizzle of olive oil. The pizza was baked at about 500-550 degrees F on the uppermost oven rack for about 6 minutes, following which it was transferred to a pizza stone (preheated for about an hour at the above temperature) at the lowest oven rack position for a final two minutes or so to achieve additional bottom crust browning.

I thought the finished pizza was exceptionally good, one of the best Lehmann pizzas I have made. The crust was chewy, tender, and crispy at the same time, with an exceptional amount of airiness, both in the rim and the rest of the crust. As readers of this thread may recall, I have used autolyse before for a Lehmann style dough and felt that it created a bread-like crumb, which I did not particularly want, but this time it was quite enjoyable. The crust also had a nice flavor. It wasn't as intense as with the crusts I have made using room temperature fermented dough, but it was clearly more flavorful than the usual Lehmann crust. I suspect that the next step in the evolution of the Lehmann dough may involve a room temperature fermented dough using only a natural preferment.

The photos of today's pizza are shown below.

Peter


Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: pyegal on May 04, 2005, 06:02:01 PM
I can't believe I read this entire thread! But it has some really good information in it! Maybe this is the type of pizza crust I'm looking for?

Now that I copied 5 variations on this theme, I'm going to gradually work my way through them and see which ones suit me the best.

Should I post my results on this thread?

Many thanks,

pyegal
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: itsinthesauce on May 04, 2005, 06:43:42 PM
By all means, please post.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: pyegal on May 05, 2005, 09:06:36 PM
The first version of Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza that I tried was the hand kneaded as described in Reply #68 by friend Pete-zza. This dough was mixed by hand with a wooden spoon, kneaded by hand, and had a 24 hour ferment in the fridge. It had about 3 1/2 hours in a warm (85 degree) oven to come up to temp and to rise. The dough looked very light and handled very well. The only change that I made was to add 2 t. of vital wheat gluten in with the dry ingredients because I was using King Arthur bread flour and not a high gluten flour.

It stretched very well for me and I was able to stretch it out to a little more than the 12" indicated. I found some semolina flour in the freezer and used it on my peel instead of flour. I decided to move up the oven rack one notch, which was a mistake. I should have left the rack on the lowest level. The pizza cooked completely in 6 1/2 minutes and I added some Locatelli cheese after it came out of the oven.

This was a good tasting dough, uncooked sauce, pepperoni (Sara Lee brand) and Sargento part skim mozzarella - on sale buy 1, get one free! I would have liked the crust to be browner and crisper, but I was hungry and didn't preheat the oven for a full hour, only about 20 minutes to 500 degrees.

Given my mistakes and being in a hurry to eat the thing - I'd say this pizza was pretty good, all things considered. I learned to keep the rack low, preheat the oven longer, and now I'm not as afraid of stetching out the dough to a larger pizza.

<img src="http://pic5.picturetrail.com/VOL93/969683/3470095/95568545.jpg">
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on May 05, 2005, 11:32:47 PM
Teresa,

Sometimes the Lehmann NY style dough can be a bit tricky. The biggest problem I have experienced with it is that it can be very extensible (stretchy, with little springback). It doesn't affect the finished product, but you have to be careful in stretching it so that it doesn't get out of control and lead to thin spots or even tears if you are not careful--and especially so as the size (diameter) of the skin increases. I believe one of the reasons for the high extensibility is the high hydration level that I prefer--around 63% (the ratio of the weight of water relative to the weight of flour). High hydration levels speed up the fermentation process, but I like the high hydration levels because I believe they contribute to a crust that is open and airy with a lot of holes. You could reduce the extensibilty by lowering the hydration level but another way to do it is to use cooler water and be sure to refrigerate the dough as soon as possible and keep it as cool as possible and don't let it go beyond 48 hours. Based on what we have learned from the Raquel recipe, it's even quite possible that the use of some form of autolyse may also improve the Lehmann dough, even though it may also change its character to the point where some may feel that it is no longer a NY style dough.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: friz78 on May 08, 2005, 12:52:25 AM
Peter,
I made a Lehman dough this weekend and used an autolyse with it for the first time.  I was a bit disappointed, as I found the crust to be more bread like, similar to what you reported in your first autolyse attempt with a Lehman dough some time ago.  I also found that the dough had too much spring and just generally got out of control while baking.  I used a high hydration percentage and I'm wondering if the combination of a high hydration with an autolyse is not a good one.
Friz
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on May 08, 2005, 11:46:43 AM
Friz,

For the last Lehmann NY style dough, I was more interested in trying to use the preferment to get better flavor in the crust. However, I decided to add the autolyse to see if that would contribute to a better overall result, particularly in light of the effectiveness of autolyse in other style doughs such as the doughs made following the Raquel recipe. I chose to use a form of autolyse that is the classical one (brought to my attention by fellow member DINKS), in which the salt (and oil) are withheld until the end of the dough formation process rather than adding them earlier. Traditionally, it is also common to add the yeast later too, but it apparently is appropriate to add the yeast earlier if is used in small amounts or the yeast is in the form of a preferment (which was the yeast form I used). It may well be that some other form of autolyse will produce a somewhat different result, but I haven't tested that possibility enough to know for sure. I am reasonably certain that the autolyse I previously used in making the Lehmann NY style dough was different than the more recent one. I liked the most recent Lehmann dough and crust a lot, but it may have been as much because of the better crust flavor than the other characteristics of the crust. Maybe in a future experiment I will leave the autolyse out altogether and use only the preferment and then compare the two results.

Which form of autolyse did you use, and can you tell us the specifics of it? It may have been different enough to be able to explain your results compared with those I have achieved both in my earlier and more recent efforts.

I see in the A16 thread that your wife has become enamored of the Caputo 00 crust and pizza and is counselling you to refrain from ever making the Lehmann dough again. I am not advocating that you file for divorce or pack up your pizza gear and leave the house immediately, because, as you know, I too am very fond of the Caputo 00 pies. Maybe you can tell her that the two styles are capable of peaceful coexistence, and that when you get bored with one (which will inevitably happen) you can always seek pleasure and refuge in the other. I would also prefer that you not become a closet Lehmann dough maker--waiting until she leaves the house--in order to keep peace in the family. But, whatever happens, I will swallow my pride and still work with you to make even better Caputo pies.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: pyegal on May 12, 2005, 07:57:21 PM
Tonight I tried the Lehmann-style pizza dough using a starter, a pinch of yeast and room temp fermentation described earlier in this thread.

The only change I made to the dough recipe and mixing was to add 2 teaspoons of vital wheat gluten as I was using KA Bread Flour, and I did not seem to need the last 5 t. flour as listed in the recipe. I mixed the dough exactly as described by friend Pete-zza, checked the dough temp as almost up to 80 degrees, and let the dough rise in an oiled zip bag inflated with a straw. I observed that during the first rise of 8 hours, the dough ball spread out more than arose upwards. During the second rise of just over 3 hours, the dough rose more in height than during the first rise. I did not punch down the dough between rises, just reformed the dough into a ball.

Sorry I don't have any pics, batteries dead again. This dough was really nice to work with as I made two 10" pies instead of one larger one. I really liked the texture of my crust this time: a crisp snap to the bottom crust without it being cracker-like (which I don't care for) and a nice chewy edge. As yet I don't get big voids on my crust edge, but maybe that's because I don't make the crust very thick. At any rate, I really liked the flavor and texture of this crust tonight!

I found some concentrated crushed tomatoes and used them for the sauce doctored up with some Penzy's pizza seasoning and a little bit of sugar. These concentrated crushed tomatoes were thick enough not to need any tomato paste added.

The only thing about this recipe that I don't like is the 8-12 hour first rise and the 6-hour second rise. Just doesn't fit my schedule except maybe on the weekend. But I do like the long rise in the plastic zip bag at room temp - you can see what's happening!

I wonder what would happen if I just let it rise all day at work for over 8 hours, then formed two small pizzas and baked them when I got home? Might just have to try that. This one is worth making again!
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: friz78 on May 12, 2005, 09:01:19 PM
pyegal,
Congratulations on your success and satisfaction with the Lehman style pizza with room temperature rise.  I can't wait until you get some batteries for that camera!!  It's always fun to visually see a person's results.  In this case, a picture really is worth a thousand words.
Friz
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on May 12, 2005, 11:29:35 PM
Teresa,

You should by all means experiment with using a shorter fermentation time. When I first used the recipe you followed (and discussed at Reply #134 at this thread), I concluded that the 12 and 8 hour time periods were too long. It's a tricky thing to be able to determine the optimum time periods because high-hydration, low-yeast doughs fermented at room temperature tend to be on the wet side and they behave differently from other doughs by spreading rather than rising in a robust fashion. If I were to try the recipe again today I would most likely omit the IDY, use more preferment, and a shorter overall fermentation period. It may require a couple of test runs to determine how much preferment to use to achieve good results in a reasonable time period, say, 8 hours total. When I last made the Lehmann dough using only the preferment (see Reply #153), I used about 5 T. of the preferment. For a room temperature version, I suspect I would need an amount in inverse proportion to the length of time that I would like to use for fermentation purposes. That is, the shorter the desired fermentation period, the less preferment I would use, and visa versa.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on May 17, 2005, 11:13:45 PM
Tonight, I made a modified version of the Lehmann NY style dough and pizza that I earlier described at Reply #151. The Lehmann dough version I posted at that time was based on using a natural preferment, an autolyse, and a period of refrigeration of over 40 hours. In tonight's version, I left out the autolyse and used a room temperature (around 75 degrees F) fermentation of around 9 hours. Today's experiment was for the purpose of trying to determine the parameters of a Lehmann room temperature dough using a natural preferment and, in particular, to see if an acceptable dough and pizza can be made during the course of a day--for example, starting the dough in the morning, letting it ferment at room temperature during the day, and baking the pizza in the evening after about 8 hours total elapsed time.

The biggest decision I had to make was how much preferment to use for a fermentation period that would extend out to about 8 hours at a room temperature of around 75 degrees F. Since I had no idea beyond a hunch, I chose to use the same amount of preferment as I had used in making the previous pizza dough as described at Reply #151. That was around 5 tablespoons. I prepared the dough in the usual manner (combining salt with water, gradually adding and mixing in the flour and the preferment, then the olive oil, and kneading everything at stir/1 speed for about 8 minutes.) The dough was put into a large, inflated plastic storage bag and placed on my kitchen countertop. Over the next 3 or 4 hours, the dough had spread out laterally into a large, soft, round disk. I reshaped it at that time into a new ball and returned it to the storage bag for about another 5 hours. Originally, I had intended an overall fermentation period of no more than 8 hours, but interruptions extended that time period to about 9 hours. At the end of the 9-hour period, the dough had expanded upwardly more so than laterally and was extremely soft--so soft, in fact, that I had to just about "pour" the dough out of the storage bag. Next time, I will use a regular bowl. The dough needed a fair amount of bench flour but it handled very easily--if anything, it was too extensible, leading me to believe that the dough may have overfermented a bit. I could lift the dough and stretch it, but I had to be careful so that the dough wouldn't get away from me.

After shaping and stretching the dough out to 16 inches, I placed it on a 16-inch pizza screen and dressed it in a simple tomato and cheese fashion (mainly 6-in-1s, shredded mozzarella cheese, dried oregano, a swirl of olive oil and a bit of Sicilian sea salt). The pizza was baked on the screen until the crust started to turn brown (about 5 minutes), following which I transferred the pizza to a pizza stone on the lowest oven position that had been preheated for about an hour at an oven temperature of around 500-550 degrees F.  The pizza remained on the pizza stone for about 2 minutes, and then was transferred to the upper oven rack to be exposed to about another minute of top browning from the broiler element, which had been turned on about 3 minutes into the baking process.

One of the things I was looking for as the pizza was baking was how much crust browning would take place, inasmuch as I had some suspicions (because of the high extensibility of the dough as mentioned above) that the dough may have overfermented a bit.  As the photos below show, there was less browning than usual, effectively telling me that 9 hours was too long a fermentation period and/or I had used too much preferment. I think it is important to keep in mind that a preferment behaves in much the same manner as a commercial yeast and that using too much of it can produce similar results to using too much of a commercial yeast. The temperature at which the dough ferments will also determine how far out the dough can go before overfermenting. Unfortunately, to balance all these factors requires experimentation.

The finished pizza itself tasted fine. It was soft and chewy and tender with a light, open and airy crumb and with a fair amount of crust flavor. The crust flavor was not as intensive as the previous pizza that was based on a dough that had undergone over 40 hours of refrigeration/retardation, but it was better than a crust based on a dough using commercial yeast. Today's experiment confirms for me that to get flavorful byproducts of fermentation requires time more than anything else. In other words, you can't simply use a lot of preferment and get the same effects of using the same amount in a long retardation. During retardation, the lactobacilli and other flavor-enhancing components in the dough continue to work even though the yeast metabolism is slowed down somewhat.

What today's experiment did teach me, however, is that it is possible to make a same-day Lehmann NY style dough using a preferment without exceeding a total fermentation period of over 8 hours. And it will handle and shape well with very little elasticity (snapback) that is often experienced using a same-day dough based on a high-gluten flour. Were I to repeat today's experiment, I would use either a combination of the same amount of preferment (5 tablespoons) and a shorter fermentation period (say, 5 or 6 hours), or a reduced amount of preferment (say, 2 tablespoons) and the same total fermentation period (8 hours). I think either approach should work reasonably well, but as with any room-temperature dough using a preferment where it is difficult from just looking and poking at the dough to know when it is ready to be shaped, some additional tweaking may be necessary to establish the final parameters that will guarantee consistent, reproducible results. Once these parameters are established, then the process can be replicated with much greater confidence.

The photos below show the finished product.

Peter

Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on May 20, 2005, 04:40:03 PM
With all the experimenting and discussions going on at this forum about natural preferments and other starters, including in the context of the Lehmann NY style doughs, one of the subjects on which nothing has been said is the keeping, or "lasting", qualities of pizza crusts made from doughs using preferments. This should hardly come as a surprise to anyone since most pizzas are intended to be completely consumed immediately after coming out of the oven and, consequently, "keeping qualities" becomes somewhat of an oxymoron in the context of a pizza crust. But, as we all know, we are sometimes left with a few slices here and there that we put aside to be reheated (or not) and eaten at a later date. The crusts of many of these slices start to degrade within a short time after coming out of the oven, but some actually get worse while awaiting a second chance for immortality.

One of the things that is not generally well understood or appreciated is that natural preferments, because of the large amounts of acids generated when they are used to leaven doughs, increase the keeping qualities of dough-based products like breads and pizza crusts. That is one of the reasons--maybe even the main reason--that naturally leavened artisan breads have a lot longer shelf life than ordinary breads (some rustic German sourdough breads can last for weeks). You may have even noticed that artisan breads are among the few breads that can be safely shipped to someone without fear of spoilage or drying out. But the same chemistry and biology applies to doughs used in the making of pizza crusts. Recently, I have been reheating and eating many of the leftover slices I have been saving from all the naturally leavened Lehmann crusts I have been making in recent weeks--the ones with the nice airy crumbs and rims and chewy texture. What I have been noticing is that the crusts are just as good as the originals. The crusts inside--inside the rims but also in the middle--are still soft and tender, sometimes even a bit flaky. The crusts even stretch and hang on for dear life when you try to tear them apart. And the flavors of fermentation remain intact.

To be sure, there are other ingredients commonly used in doughs that improve the keeping qualities of finished bread products. These include fats (often in the form of oils), sugar (dry or liquid forms), milk products and, if you want to get a bit more esoteric, even lecithin, a soy-based product that is sometimes used in doughs as a fat substitute. Of these, only oil is used in the Lehmann NY style dough recipe, but in an amount too small (1%) to make a dent in the keeping qualities of the crust. You need to get above 5-6% to get that effect. So, I think it is safe to say that what I have been experiencing in the improved keeping qualities of the recent Lehmann crusts is attributable to use of the preferments and little else. I wouldn't go so far as to suggest that everyone start using natural preferments just to get a better quality leftover slice. For me, it's just another side benefit that tags along with the enhanced flavor profile that comes from using preferments.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: pftaylor on May 21, 2005, 07:25:34 AM
Pete-zza,
I heartily agree with your assessment regarding preferment enhanced crusts. However, it has been my experience that nothing can save a crust from toppings such as peppers and mushrooms with high water content.

While on the topic of preferment enhanced doughs, based on all your experiments to date, what is your best guess as to the approximate optimum time for a cold fermention when trying to maximize flavor and dough/crust performance (stretching, robustness, charring, etc)? One, two, three, four, five days...?

The background to my question has to do with my experience which indicates a cold rise of two days is better than one but three is not always better than two. Of course, we are both using different preferments, equipment, coolers, techniques and recipes so I would expect the results may be different. However, two days seems to be the repeatable optimum time zone for me.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on May 21, 2005, 10:24:48 AM
pft,

I agree that using toppings like green peppers and mushrooms can pose problems for a crust, but my experience with the Lehmann NY crust is that it holds up quite well to multiple toppings. In fact, last New Years Eve I made a Lehmann pizza (which I dubbed the "Kitchen Sink") that had pepperoni, sausage, diced green peppers, mushrooms, onions, fresh and processed mozzarella cheeses, provolone cheese, Asiago cheese, Parmigiano-Reggiano cheese, 6-in-1, San Marzano, and fresh tomatoes, and the crust held up surprisingly well. I could be wrong, but I would think that a crust made from a naturally leavened Lehmann dough would be even better and still bear up under the weight of the many toppings. Remember, too, that the doughs you have been experimenting with, for example, the Patsy's, Raquel and Sophia doughs, are quite a bit thinner than the Lehmann NY style doughs.

As for your question about the ideal or optimum cold rise for a naturally leavened dough, I would say about 2 days also--at least with respect to the Lehmann NY style dough. One of the best such doughs I made, and reported on at Reply #153 at this thread, utilized a cold rise of around 45 hours. I am reasonably confident that with good kneading techniques the useful life can be extended even further, as Varasano has proven, but everything has to be done just right. You can't just assume that any dough can reach 4 or more days. Even if you can get out several days, you might not like the more intense flavors.  Also, you can run into crust browning problems in a conventional home oven as the acids build up in the dough and the sugars (natural and added) are gradually depleted. I suspect hat this is somewhat less of a problem with your high-temperature grill.

I'm glad you didn't ask me the ideal or optimum room-temperature rise for a naturally leavened dough ;). That's a much tougher question--one I am still trying to get my mind and arms around.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on May 22, 2005, 09:14:22 PM
One of the things I have been trying to accomplish lately is to devise a recipe and technique for making a same-day Lehmann dough that would 1) use a natural preferment, 2) be fermented at room temperature, 3) use a high hydration level (to achieve an open and airy crust), 4) be easy to handle and shape, and 5) yield a crust flavor equal to or better than a Lehmann crust made from a 24-hour retarded dough (at a minimum). To set the bar even higher, I decided that I also wanted anyone practicing the recipe to be able to start the dough in the morning--for example, before leaving for work--and to shape, dress and bake the pizza that evening about 9-10 hours later, without anyone having to touch the dough at all during the entire fermentation/rise time. As a further timesaving measure, I also decided that I didn’t want to use any autolyse or similar rest periods, no matter how brief. And I didn’t want anyone, including me, to have to get up at 3:00 AM to feed the preferment so that it would be ready to go at dough making time a few hours later. An important aspect of what I wanted to achieve was that the preferment would have to be readied starting the night before.

To achieve the above goals, I decided to use my basic preferment to naturally leaven the final dough as usual, but instead of using it in its normal liquid, batter-like state, I would convert it to a much thicker consistency--much like a thick, soft, wet dough--and let it ferment and ripen overnight before incorporating it the following morning, along with all of the other ingredients, into the basic Lehmann dough formulation. The thickened preferment would be similar to what is often referred to as a chef or a pate fermentee (“old dough”) but, unlike a chef or pate fermentee, it would be “new” dough rather than “old” dough and it would contain no salt. For purposes of this post, I will simply refer to it as a “dough preferment” for lack of a better term.

To prepare the dough preferment, the evening before I planned to make the Lehmann dough I took 1/2 cup of my natural batter-like preferment, which I had refreshed earlier in the day with flour and warm water (a process that took about 3 hours after taking it out of the refrigerator), and combined it with the following: 3 ounces of flour (1/4 c. plus 7 t.) and 2 1/2 ounces of warm water (1/4 c., at 85-90 degrees F). After thoroughly mixing these ingredients together in a bowl to achieve a somewhat thick, dough-like consistency, I lightly covered the bowl (I used a loose fitting lid but a towel can also be used) and set it on my countertop to allow the dough preferment to ferment and ripen overnight so that it would be ready to use by morning.

By the next morning, about 10 hours later, the dough preferment had almost tripled in volume—a clear indication that, at least at the outset, my basic preferment had sufficient leavening power. One of my concerns at this point was that the dough preferment may have overrisen and weakened during the night because of the 10 hour rise (at about 75 degrees F) and its substantial volume expansion. However, I speculated that, even if such were the case, the byproducts of fermentation that contribute to crust flavor would still be there and, once I incorporated the dough preferment into the basic Lehmann dough recipe, as weak as it might be, the resulting dough would ferment and rise at a good slow pace throughout the day and be ready to be used 9-10 hours thereafter without fear of overfermentation. Whether my analysis was correct or not, the dough seemed to concur with my analysis--at least judging from the outcome as described below.

For the Lehmann dough recipe, I decided to use the same basic recipe (for a 16-inch skin) as set forth originally in Reply #151 (and indirectly in Reply #161) but modified in a few respects to account for the substitution of the dough preferment for the basic liquid preferment called for in the recipe. I decided to use the dough preferment in an amount equal to 20% by weight of flour--a figure I borrowed from fellow member Bakerboy’s work with pate fermentee. For my dough preferment, this came to about 3 1/2 tablespoons (about 2.32 ounces.). (I chose to discard whatever dough preferment I would not need for the recipe, although it could have been used to make more dough or for other sourdough baking purposes.)

To spare readers having to go back to look for the basic recipe, the recipe as I modified it for this experiment was as follows:

100%, KASL high-gluten flour, 11.60 oz. (2 1/2 c. plus 3 T. plus 1 t.)
63%, Water, 7.00 oz. (7/8 c., temp. adjusted to get a finished dough temp. of around 80 degrees F but not adjusted for dough preferment hydration)
1.75%, Salt, 0.203 oz. (about 1 t.)
1%, Olive oil, 0.12 oz. (a bit less than 3/4 t.)
20%, Dough Preferment, 2.32 oz. (about 3 1/2 T.)
Finished dough ball weight: 21 oz. (TF = 0.105)
Finished dough temperature: 77.8 degrees F

The processing of the Lehmann dough was the same as previously described in Reply #161 except that I had to make a few minor adjustments to the amount of flour (accounted for in the above recipe) during kneading to compensate for the hydration level of the dough preferment, which was wetter than the dough itself. When the dough was fully kneaded, I shaped it into a round, smooth ball, oiled it very lightly, flattened it into a disk, placed it in a round, transparent, straight-sided, 6-inch diameter Rubbermaid container (see the first photo below), covered the container with a loose fitting lid, and set it on my kitchen countertop to ferment during the day. I intentionally chose the container I selected because of its round shape (the same shape as a pizza skin), and because its straight sides and transparency would allow me to see the dough rise and accurately measure the degree of its volume expansion (note the use in the first photo of a rubber band to mark the starting level of the dough).

For the first four hours that the container of dough sat on my countertop, there was no discernible difference in the dough, even at a room temperature of around 78 degrees F. The dough just sat there. Then, very gradually, almost imperceptibly, the dough started to expand. And by about 5 or 6 hours later, the dough had about doubled in volume, with the bulk of the rise having taken place in the final couple of hours. At that point in its destination, the dough was soft and somewhat flabby looking, giving no palpable signs that success was to be achieved. At the expiration of the 9-10 hour period, I put the dough on my work surface and dusted it with bench flour in preparation for shaping and stretching the dough into a skin. The dough was cool to the touch but not wet or sticky--as was my last effort--and it had a good, substantive feel to it. I took that to be a good sign.

Very surprisingly, despite its rather anemic appearance throughout the entire fermentation period, the dough handled exceptionally well. Like many of the Lehmann NY style doughs I have made, the dough was quite extensible but I had no difficulty whatsoever in shaping and stretching it out to the 16-inch size that I would use on my 16-inch pizza screen. I was very happy with the dough. Once the dough had been stretched to the 16-inch size and placed on the pizza screen, it was dressed in a simple pepperoni style. In a departure from the way I last baked the Lehmann pizza, this time I placed the pizza screen with the dressed pizza on it directly onto my pizza stone, which I had placed on the bottom oven rack position and preheated to a temperature of about 500-550 degrees F for about an hour. After about 5 minutes of bake time, I removed the pizza from the screen and slid it directly onto the pizza stone for an additional couple of minutes to achieve additional bottom crust browning. This was followed by an additional minute or so of baking on the upper oven rack position, just under the broiler element, which I had turned on about 3 minutes into the baking process.

The last two photos show the finished product. I am pleased to report that the pizza was one of the best Lehmann pizzas I have made, with a crust as good as any I have made in my many experiments with the Lehmann dough--whether based on retardation (refrigeration) or not. The crust was chewy yet soft and tender and with a nice pleasant flavor. For one of the few times, I even got the rim to be a normal NY street size  ;D. But what pleases me most is that I now believe, for the first time, that it is possible to make a high quality same-day Lehmann dough and pizza without having to subject the dough itself to a period of overnight retardation. Rather, the heavy lifting is put on the back of the preferment. Of course, quality often comes at a price and, in this case, it means having to make or reconstitute a preferment and take care of it and learn its individualistic, often unpredictable, behavior pattern and put it to greatest use.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Trinity on May 23, 2005, 06:32:20 AM
 :o   


 Oh, I can just about taste it from here....  Drool :)::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: pyegal on May 23, 2005, 07:41:36 AM
Pete-zza,
I was waiting, waiting, waiting to read what the final judgment was for this new experiment - and you didn't disappoint! Your explanation, as usual, was very thorough and concise. And now, I can't wait to try this version of the Lehmann's NY Style Pizza.

Do you think I can make two smaller pies from the resulting dough? I don't have a peel big enough or oven tile space sufficient for 16" pizzas.

Thanks for this latest version!

pyegal
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: pftaylor on May 23, 2005, 08:23:26 AM
Pete-zza,
Interesting outcome to say the least. I believe there is much we can learn from you and your well documented experiments.

Yesterday I had the unexpected opportunity to use an 8 hour cold rise Pizza Raquel followed by a 3 hour counter rise. The crust flavor was the equal of any I have fermented in my recent memory. The crust charred quite well which was totally unexpected. Why? I don't really know. For now I am just reporting the results and tracking them with the hope that some sort of recognizable pattern or trend will present itself.

Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on May 23, 2005, 09:09:54 AM
Teresa,

There is no reason why you can't make two pizzas out of the amount of dough from the most recent recipe. However, from my calculations, the size of each pizza would be limited to a bit over 13 inches (to stay within the thickness design parameter of the pizza). That's a bit of an oddball size so if there is a more convenient size you would like to make, let me know and if there isn't already a recipe on the thread for that size, I am certain I can adjust the most recent recipe for whatever size you prefer or your particular oven can accommodate.

My recollection is that you use a food processor. If so, there is no reason I can see offhand why you can't use a food processor to make a dough using the most recent recipe. In fact, the dough can be made even faster in the food processor than in a stand mixer. However, you have to be very careful not to overheat the dough during the kneading process. For long room-temperature rise times, you want to keep the dough as cool as possible so that the dough doesn't overferment. With summer almost upon us (it was 98 degrees F here in Texas yesterday and 78 degrees inside), it is even more important to be sure that the dough is kept as cool as possible. Since we are pretty much stuck with our room temperatures (short of spending a fortune on air conditioning to cool the kitchen), the best way to keep the dough cool is to use much cooler water when making the dough and, when using the processor, to use only the pulse feature (and a plastic kneading disc if you have one, although it isn't absolutely necessary). If you will tell me what your general room temperature is this time of year and what kind of processor you are using (e.g., brand), I think I can give you at least a rough idea of the water temperature to use.

You can also slow down the fermentation rate and reduce the risk of overfermentation by using less preferment (the "dough preferment"). It might even be possible to use an unrefreshed preferment in making the dough preferment (that is, using the preferment right out of the refrigerator to make the dough preferment), although I haven't tried this yet. The whole objective of these exercises is to slow down the rate of fermentation, especially in the summer where high room temperatures generally prevail. To the extent you can do this, you buy a little more time to make the pizzas without fear that the dough has overrisen.

Good luck.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: scott r on May 23, 2005, 10:11:34 AM
Peter, I recently used a starter that would probably be considered immature to try to control the problems I was having with overfermentation.  It worked perfectly, and still had tons of lift and flavor. I can see that in the summer months to come this, and some extra salt might help some people out.  For now,  I am now back to just using recipes with a tiny bit of preferment (Marco's) and this also works great for my warmer than optimal room temp.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on May 23, 2005, 11:20:16 AM
scott,

I am glad to see that you are using your head as much as anything else in adjusting to the circumstances surrounding the making of your doughs. Especially with room-fermented doughs, you just can't slavishly follow recipes and be sure of getting consistently good results. Room fermented doughs, and particularly those that use natural preferments, give few "all clear" signals that they are ready for forming into skins. That was one of the reasons I spent a lot of time with my most recent Lehmann dough just watching its development with time--from the moment it went into the container until show time. Consistent with studies that have been performed on room-temperature, naturally-leavened doughs, I found that a doubling of the dough is just about right (the studies say 2 to 2 1/2 times). I think even a bit less than a doubling might also be OK. The advantage of looking at milestones, like a doubling of a dough, is that it takes time out of the equation. To the extent you are able to substitute milestones for times in the process of dough making, the better I think your overall results will be.

I subscribe to a conspiracy theory when it comes to preferments and room-temperature, naturally-leavened doughs--that is, they are lying awake at night (or during the day) conspiring to thwart or defeat whatever I have in mind to do with them :). It forces my mind into overdrive, and I can tell you it is a humbling experience. I am constantly in awe of what is going on beneath the skin of a dough ball.

As for your comment on salt, I have been careful not to suggest increasing salt levels to slow down the fermentation process, although this is quite common with 00 doughs especially, and more so with room fermented, naturally-leavened doughs. 00 doughs already use high salt levels (up to 2.8% in some cases), and adding more salt might produce an overly salty tasting crust. Plus there are those who are on salt-restricted diets. But you are correct on the theory.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: pyegal on May 23, 2005, 12:52:16 PM
Pete-zza,
I have used a food processor to make up my dough - it is a Black and Decker, has a pulse feature, and did not overheat the dough the last time I used it, the dough checked out at slightly less than 80 degrees F on my instant read thermometer. I also have a Kitchen Aid mixer that I use to mix dough, and you may recall, I made one NY-style recipe by hand w/o processor or mixer.

The temperature in my kitchen at 12:45 pm today is approximately 76-77 degrees. What are your thoughts on mixing the crust dough (not the preferment) with chilled water from the refrigerator when the summer temps warm up our kitchens?

Any thoughts on the question about making dough by hand in the summer? Would the hand kneading raise the dough temp beyond the preferred temperatures for a long room temp rise?

Thanks!

Teresa
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: dinks on May 23, 2005, 01:40:20 PM
PYEGAL:
  Good Morning. If you are using Instant yeast you should use fridge water. I use approx. 60 degree water when mixing any of my yeasted lean bread dough.
    As you know, 78 to 82 degrees is considered an optimum temp by many prof bakers when mixing is completed. However, more than that what you need to be aware of is this, If you let you dough concoction reach & exceed 90 degrees it will develop an oder, You must then discard it & begin anew. I hope i was able to provide some insight to you  young lady.
  ~DINKS.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on May 23, 2005, 02:44:01 PM
Teresa,

I was hoping you had a Cuisinart food processor, since that would have made it easier for me to give you a better answer. But that's not a real problem. The next time you make a batch of dough in your B&D food processor, using only the pulse feature (an occasional but brief whirl at normal speed is OK if that is your practice), make note of the room temperature, the water temperature, the flour temperature, and the finished dough temperature (whatever it is). With that information, I will be able to give you a better idea of what water temperature to use this time of year. For now, I would use around 70 degrees F for the water for the food processor application to make the dough itself. I don't think there is any need to use cool water for the preferment itself.

Fellow member DINKS raises some good points. Living in the Las Vegas area, he has many of the same problems with temperature that I do. I am not sure he was referring to high finished dough temperatures in the context of a naturally-leavened dough, but such doughs don't particularly like high temperatures. Above about 90 degrees F, the lactic acids in the dough become more potent and are responsible for the odor that DINKS refers to. That's one of the reasons to be conscious of temperature and to take steps to compensate (the longer the fermentation or the higher the temperature, the more potent the sourness will be).

As for your question on hand kneading, that's OK if you plan to make only a small amount of dough. As you know, the KA Sir Lancelot flour is high in gluten. Kneading a KASL dough ball for a 16-inch pizza by hand is extremely hard to do unless you have Popeye's muscles. A dough ball for a 12-inch pizza is much more doable, but still a chore. FYI, hand kneading produces the smallest amount of heat rise in a dough. In the expression I use to calculate water temperature, I assign a friction factor value of 0 to hand kneading.

Peter



Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on May 24, 2005, 11:39:40 PM
After making the last Lehmann pizza the other night, I wondered whether it was possible for me to improve upon it--to make it simpler and/or to improve upon its quality. After giving the matter a fair amount of thought, I decided that I would explore making three changes: 1) simplify the dough preferment process, 2) use an autolyse, and 3) use a food processor instead of a stand mixer.

For the dough preferment, I decided that I would use my preferment in its unrefreshed state, that is, directly out of the refrigerator without the normal or regular feeding with flour and water. I would also make just the amount of preferment dough I would need for my recipe (as set forth in Reply #165 at this thread), and no more. There would be no leftover dough preferment. Finally, in making the dough preferment, I would use cold water, right out of the refrigerator, rather than warm water, as I had previously done. In this latter respect, I theorized that the cold water would cause the dough preferment to rise and ripen overnight more slowly than if I used warm water, and by morning it would be in good shape to use and not exhibit signs of overrising.

To make the newest version of the dough preferment to achieve the above objectives, I took 1/8 cup of my unrefreshed natural preferment (about 0.85 oz., or a bit more than 1 T.) and combined that with 1.10 oz. of flour (3T.) and 0.45 oz. cold water (1 T.). The total weight of that mix came to 2.40 oz., an amount equal to about 20% by weight of flour as called for in the Lehmann dough recipe I last used. That amount also represented the exact amount I would need, without any leftover. Perhaps more importantly, the specific quantities I chose for the new dough preferment yielded a dough that had a hydration percent quite close to the hydration level of the basic Lehmann dough into which the dough preferment would be incorporated. This is a common technique used by bakers, typically when “old doughs” or pate fermentee are used. The final dough preferment looked and felt just like another piece of pizza dough.

The dough preferment was put into a small, loosely covered container and left on my kitchen countertop to rise and ripen overnight. By the next morning, about 10 hours later, the dough preferment had risen by two to three times. It was soft and billowy, but I could see that it was starting to sink in the center. This is considered the best time to use a preferment for leavening purposes.

For the basic Lehmann dough recipe itself, I chose to use the same recipe that was set forth in Reply #165, with which I achieved good results. However, this time I would use a food processor rather than a stand mixer to process the dough. Since a dough can be made quite a bit faster in a food processor than a stand mixer, I decided that it would be safe to add an autolyse to the process without unduly extending the overall duration of the dough making process. To save a bit more time in this regard, I had premeasured the flour the night before and put it aside along with all the rest of the ingredients to be ready once I started the dough making process the next morning.

To prepare the dough, I used the following basic procedure: I first placed the flour into the food processor and gradually added the water (which I had temperature adjusted to achieve a finished dough temperature of around 80 degrees F), and pulsed the processor until a smooth, round dough ball formed between the dough blade (I used the plastic one) and the sides of the processor bowl.  (Note: It is important when making a food processor dough to add the water to the flour, not vice versa, and to add the water slowly and at only the rate that the flour can readily absorb so as not to end up with a soupy or gummy mix that can clog up the dough blade and require substantial effort to undo--usually by removing and reorienting the dough and/or adding more flour.) I then let the flour and water mixture rest for 20 minutes (the autolyse rest period). This was followed, in turn, by pulsing in the dough preferment, the olive oil and the salt--all classic Prof. Calvel autolyse steps. The finished dough ball weighed almost 21 ounces. After a final minute of hand kneading, I placed the dough into a straight-sided container (the same one I used for the last Lehmann dough), pressed the dough down into a flat disk, and put the container (loosely covered) on my kitchen countertop to rise and ferment throughout the day.

Given the small amount of dough preferment and its use of cold water to slow down its fermentation, I was very curious to see how the dough would behave, specifically, how much and at what rate it would rise. To my great surprise, the dough rose hardly at all. It just sat there, quietly minding its own business. It was only after about 10 hours or so--at the time I planned to use the dough to make a pizza--that I started to see a very small amount of expansion of the dough--maybe 1/8 inch at best. The dough was alive, but I had no idea what to expect in the way of further performance. I had observed the same behavior before on several occasions when I experimented with the naturally-leavened, room temperature Caputo 00 doughs, and I had made retarded Lehmann doughs that hardly rose at all--but this was the first time I experienced the behavior with a naturally-leavened, room temperature Lehmann dough. Since I had come this far, I decided to forge ahead.

As with the last Lehmann dough, I was surprised (shocked may be a better word) to see that today’s dough behaved exceptionally well--as well as any dough I have ever made. It had a perfect amount of elasticity and extensibility--I could stretch it in any direction and by any amount I wanted without fear of tears or weak spots forming. It was a dream to work with and I had such fun with it that I didn’t want to stop. If I had to guess, I would attribute the dough’s high handling quality to the autolyse. It’s possible that using the food processor also helped, but my past efforts making doughs using a food processor did not produce doughs of such high quality. The only way to know for sure is to repeat the recipe but without using the autolyse.

The finished pizza was also first rate. I had dressed and baked it in the same manner as the previous Lehmann dough, and achieved results (crust taste, texture and color) that to me were virtually indistinguishable from the last Lehmann pizza. Today’s dough was of better quality, but not so much as to suggest that one not use the last Lehmann dough recipe. Today’s dough took a couple hours longer to ferment, and that might be a factor in electing one recipe over the other, but they were both exceptionally good in my opinion. But what today’s results demonstrated is that it is possible to use an unrefreshed preferment to produce a dough preferment to naturally leaven a same-day, room-temperature Lehmann style dough to produce a pizza of very high quality.

The photos below show the finished product.

Peter



Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Trinity on May 25, 2005, 09:01:23 AM
I think I will try to copy that. (looks only)...  ;D

If I do it I will post a pic. :)


Edit;

I did it!

  Come and see!!! :)



http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1419.0.html
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: pyegal on May 27, 2005, 06:33:34 PM
A couple of questions, Peter:

1) do you add all the flour when mixing before the autolyse or do you hold some back to add if needed?

2) do you leave the dough in the food processor during the autolyse period?

3) the water used in mixing the dough, was it room temp or chilled from the frig?

I'm really glad you tried this out for us. I used to use my Kitchen Aid mixer for mixing up pizza dough, or I did it by hand. But I really like the texture, not to mention ease and quickness of preparation using a food processor. And, when all is said and done, it's no harder to clean than the mixer.

This will be the next version I will try. I have some dough (Lehmanns' with the pinch of yeast and small amount of starter mixed in the food processor) rising now in the un-air conditioned laundry room. Tonight's pizza will be hamburger, onions, and bell pepper. Yummmm!

pyegal

Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on May 27, 2005, 07:10:19 PM
Teresa,

Good questions.

When I use the food processor for kneading dough, I put the flour in first and then add the water gradually, just to the point where a ball forms between the dough blade and the walls of the processor bowl. For my autolyse, I put all of the flour in at one time, followed by the water (gradually). I know that some autolyse methods call for combining in stages, and even though I have done this on many occasions myself, I have never been quite able to figure out the logic in doing it that way. If increased hydration is the purpose, why not hydrate all the flour at one time, before adding the rest of the ingredients? I suppose you could do the autolyse in stages, but that doesn't seem to make a great deal of sense to me. Maybe our good friend DINKS or one of our other baker members can provide a good explanation if there is one.

I leave the dough right in the processor bowl during autolyse. I just throw a towel over the top of the processor or the bowl itself so the dough doesn't dry out during the autolyse.

I temperature adjust the water for my dough recipes to get a finished dough temperature of around 80 degrees F. When I made the last Lehmann dough, the calculation said to use water at 70 degrees F. That is roughly room temperature water, although I use bottled refrigerated water and heat it in the microwave to get it up to around 70 degrees F.

If you follow the procedure of putting the flour in the bowl first, followed by the water, and, after the autolyse (which itself will have a slight dough cooling effect), adding the oil and the salt (separately or together)--always using the pulse feature to do the combining and kneading--you should be OK in terms of finished dough temperature, even if you come in a bit higher. Even if you miss the mark by say, 10 degrees on the high side, you can always put the dough in the refrigerator for about 15-20 minutes to cool the dough down a bit and return the dough to room temperature. Using cooler water to begin with should also work, but the dough may ferment a little bit slower. I'm not sure you could really tell the difference since the dough hardly rises at all. I threw in the towel after about 10 hours of seeing virtually no rise in the dough. To paraphrase an old expression about a watched pot never boiling, I guess a watched dough never rises :).

Good luck with tonight's pizza.

Peter
Title: Friday's pizza
Post by: pyegal on May 27, 2005, 10:17:10 PM
Here is tonight's pizza: hamburger, onion, green bell pepper, and mozzarella. This is the second pizza
which turned out better tasting (for some reason?) and the photo was better than the first pizza. I used what I had on hand, but I prefer Italian sausage or pepperoni and a spicier sauce. This crust was very good, just the right mix of crispness in the middle and chewiness on the rim.

<img src="http://pic5.picturetrail.com/VOL93/969683/3470095/98254239.jpg">

<img src="http://pic5.picturetrail.com/VOL93/969683/3470095/98253980.jpg">
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: pftaylor on May 28, 2005, 09:13:09 AM
Pyegal,
Your results are some of the most visually consistent on this board. Your pies look very inviting.
Good job.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on May 28, 2005, 10:00:22 AM
Teresa,

I agree with pft.

I see from your peel that there is a lot of room left on it for a bigger pizza. If you'd like me to give you the ingredients (yes, I will provide volume measurements) for a larger size pizza, let me know the size you'd like to try. I know you have been making two pizzas out of your recipes rather than one, but you might want to try making one just to compare. Of course, I'm assuming that your stone can handle the larger size.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: pyegal on May 28, 2005, 11:49:09 AM
Hmm....pft, is that a compliment? LOL! I'm hoping to improve in both my pizza making and photo taking. But for now, I'll take it as a compliment. However, I do not feel my skills with either approach yours, Pete-za's, Varsano's, or others on this forum.

Pull my feathers and call me a chicken, Pete-za! I'm just scared to make a pie larger than about 12".
Last night I did have some very thin areas (as in you could read thru them) in the center portions of my pizzas. I also had some thicker areas, so I need to work on my consistency. I want to get a 14" screen if I can find the time to get to a restaurant supply house in either Greensboro or Winston Salem. Then I'll tackle stretching the dough out to a larger size.

Both of last night's pizzas were baked for 6.5 minutes at 500 degrees F(gas oven), on the lowest rack setting, cooking the pies directly on my quarry tiles. Lost a few pieces of onion and bell pepper in the transfer. I was pleased to be able to repeat that crust texture that I liked in an earlier version.

pyegal
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: pftaylor on May 28, 2005, 12:35:29 PM
pyegal,
Most recently I have been accused of being fulsome with my praise so I decided to seek alternative words to express my enthusiasm for your efforts. Consistency, to me, is a compliment of the first rank in home pizza making. I view the ability to create one great pie as perhaps skill but more than likely luck. Excellence over time is the true test. In order to progress one's skill they would have to be able to pick up where they left off and improve.

As one climbs higher up the pizza mountain the ledges available to rest are smaller and smaller. Improvement is more treacherous. You have demonstrated the tenacity to improve.

That is no small feat. Therefore, kindly count me as a fan of your efforts.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on May 28, 2005, 10:31:10 PM
Teresa,

As you know from reading the various posts on this thread, I have posted Lehmann dough recipes for several different size pizzas, from 9 inches all the way up to 18 inches. Theoretically, all the pizzas made from the recipes should produce the same characteristics, with the only differences being the sizes of the pizzas. You could take a dough intended for a 12 inch pizza and stretch it out to 14 or 15 inches, but the finished pizza will not be the same. That is why I offered to give you a recipe for whatever size you want.

As for stretching dough to the larger sizes, that will come with practice. I bought an 18-inch pizza screen today from a local restaurant supply place and intend in due course to make an 18-inch Lehmann dough to use on the new screen. I have never made that size before but I am looking forward to it. The last Lehmann dough I made handled so nicely that I am certain that I will have no problem stretching the dough (designed for the 18-inch size) out to 18 inches.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: pyegal on May 28, 2005, 11:23:55 PM
Pete-zza,
Perhaps you could calculate for me the dough ingredients to make 2 12-inch pies. That is usually
what I make, but using the dough for one 14-inch pie. Measurements by volume, please, as I have not made the leap to weights.

Pftaylor, your choice of alternative words to praise my humble efforts are just fine with me. Any positive feedback from the experts here I will welcome. I think that consistency is one of the major aims with my weekly pizza trials. I just want to produce a pizza with a crust that suits me, find a mixing technique that will give me the same crust taste and texture each time I make it, and a sauce that I can successfully reproduce each time. The toppings will vary according to what I have on hand, what sounds good at the moment, and what my guests would like, if I'm serving guests.

With helpful advice and encouragement, I feel that I am on my way to achieving my goals!

Thanks to you both,
Teresa (pyegal)
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on May 29, 2005, 11:09:20 AM
Teresa,

I have set forth below the formulations for the Lehmann dough recipes you requested. You will note that I have given you a single 12-inch recipe, a double-size recipe to make two 12-inch pizzas, a 14-inch recipe, and, for good measure, a 16-inch recipe, even though you didn't specifically ask for it, should you muster up the courage to try that one (if your oven will permit). For purposes of the recipes, I chose to use a thickness factor (TF) of 0.105. That is a bit more than the standard 0.10 thickness factor for a NY style, but it is one that I myself often use and it may be a bit easier for you to work with until you feel you are able to handle a slightly thinner dough if you think you would like that better. If you'd like, you can also use the matrix that fellow member Crusty created and posted at Reply #107 (on this thread) based on the 0.10 thickness factor and different hydration percents. For your recipes below, I chose 63%, which has pretty much become my personal standard.

Lehmann recipe for one 12-inch pizza
Flour (100%), KASL high-gluten, 7.15 oz. (1 1/2 c. plus 2 T.)
Water (63%), 4.50 oz. (between 1/2 c. and 5/8 c.)
Salt (1.75%), 0.13 oz. (a bit over 5/8 t.)
Oil (1%), 0.07 oz. (a bit less than 1/2 t.)
IDY (0.25%), 0.02 oz. (1/6 t., or about 7 pinches between the thumb and forefinger)
Total dough ball weight = 11.87 oz.
Thickness factor (TF) = 0.105

Lehmann recipe for two 12-inch pizzas
Flour (100%), KASL high-gluten, 14.30 oz. (3 c. plus 3 T. plus 1 t.)
Water (63%), 9.01 oz. (1 1/8 c.)
Salt (1.75%), 0.25 oz. (a bit over 1 1/4 t.)
Oil (1%), 0.14 oz. (7/8 t.)
IDY (0.25%), 0.04 oz. (a bit over 1/3 t.)
Total dough ball weight = 23.74 oz.
Thickness factor (TF) = 0.105

Lehmann recipe for one 14-inch pizza
Flour (100%), KASL high-gluten, 9.73 oz. (a bit less than 2 1/4 c.)
Water (63%), 6.13 oz. (3/4 c.)
Salt (1.75%), 0.17 oz. (7/8 t.)
Oil (1%), 0.10 oz. (a bit less than 5/8 t.)
IDY (0.25%), 0.02 oz. (a bit less than 1/4 t.)
Total dough ball weight = 16.16 oz.
Thickness factor (TF) = 0.105

Lehmann recipe for one 16-inch pizza
Flour (100%), King Arthur high-gluten, 12.65 oz. (2 3/4 plus 3 T.)
Water (63%), 7.95 oz., (1 c.)
Salt (1.75%), 0.20 oz., (a bit over 1 t.)
Oil (1%), 0.13 oz., (a bit over 3/4 t.)
IDY (0.25%), 0.03 oz., (about 1/3 t.)
Total dough ball weight: 21.10 oz.
Thickness factor (TF) = 0.105

Good luck.

Peter






Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: tjacks88 on May 29, 2005, 02:45:47 PM
Peter,

Are your measurments based on oz for solids and fl oz for liquids? I am starting to use a digital scale so I want to make sure that I am using the right measurements.

Also, if you want to make more than one pizza based on any of the ingredients listed, is it as simple as just multiplying the measurements by how many pizzas you want to make? Since I make anywhere from one to several pizzas at a time depending on the number of guests, I'm wondering if it woud be better to approach this from making the dough in one mixer batch then dividing it into balls based upon weight.

Thanks

Tom
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on May 29, 2005, 03:28:38 PM
Tom,

In just about all my recipes I use weight measurements for everything, including the water. I also try to give volume equivalents for those who do not have scales, even though this is not an entirely accurate process. So, in your case, with a scale, you should weigh the heavier ingredients like flour and water. Unless you have a special scale that can weigh very small quantities of things, like salt, sugar, oil and yeast, you will have to rely on standard conversion data for converting from weights to volumes, like teaspoons and tablespoons, which are pretty much universally used by home bakers. An example of a special scale that can weigh very small amounts of ingredients is the Frieling Accu Balance digital scale like the one that fellow member pftaylor has and uses. I believe it measures down to 0.1 gram and 0.005 ounce.

To make multiple dough balls, it is as simple as you say. Just multiply the ingredients for a single size dough ball by the number of pizzas you want. I usually give the single pizza size for those who only want to make a single pizza of a given size. If you plan to make several pizzas at about the same time, then it is best to make all the dough at once if your machine can handle it. For most machines, and especially for stand mixers (or an Electrolux DLX) that can handle larger dough batches than a food processor, this is the most efficient way to do it. You can decide whether you want to divide and scale the large dough mass into several individual dough balls before refrigerating (for a retarded Lehmann dough) or you can refrigerate the large dough ball in one piece and divide and scale it later after the dough ball comes out of the refrigerator. I prefer the former approach if you can do it space-wise in your refrigerator. I believe it also minimizes the handling of the dough and degassing from the additional handling.

You will notice in the two 12-inch recipes that I devised for pyegal the second recipe is not exactly double the first recipe. That's simply because of the numbers involved and rounding factors and using approximations. If I were to make, say, five dough balls, the approach I would take would be to multiply the single dough ball weight by five and then use the baker's percents to determine the individual quantities. It's a bit more precise to do it this way, and it is most likely that the differences will be minimal in a practical sense. But I am just a creature of habit and always look for the most precise way of doing things. It also provides a good audit trail if I have to revisit the recipes for any reason.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: SunDragon on June 03, 2005, 09:26:58 PM
Hello, newbie here.

Wow, alot of information in this thread so much so that im a little lost.  Theres been so many variations that im not sure which one I should use. So, with that last post with the breakdowns for different size pizzas, I was wondering what sort of proccess I should use to mix up the dough with my stand mixer? A 12 incher is about as big as I can make right now.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on June 03, 2005, 10:17:00 PM
SunDragon,

Welcome to the forum. As a "newbie", you are wise to start with a simple and basic recipe. There will be plenty of time to move on to more esoteric versions. If you can master a basic recipe, you won't be a "newbie" for long.

In due course, the basic Lehmann dough recipe should appear on the recipe page of the forum, along with a general set of instructions. For now, you may want to use the instructions presented below. Unfortunately, there is no perfect set of instructions that will work identically for everyone. There are too many variables. However, the following instructions are fairly generic and should get you going in the right direction. If you have any questions feel free to ask. My door is always open :).

1.In a mixing bowl of a stand mixer fitted with a dough hook, add the salt to the water and stir or whisk until the salt is dissolved.

2.Combine the flour and yeast (IDY) and gradually add to the mixing bowl, at "Stir" or low speed. If necessary, use a spatula to scrape down the sides of the bowl so that the flour is directed into the path of the dough hook and forms a rough dough ball.

3. When the bulk of the flour has been taken up into the dough ball, about 2 minutes, add the oil and continue to knead, at low speed, for about another 2 minutes. Increase the mixer speed to medium and continue kneading for an additional 5-6 minutes. Remove the dough from the mixing bowl and examine it. It should be smooth, soft and elastic without any tears on the outer surface. It should also be tacky rather than wet or dry. If these conditions are not met, return the dough to the mixer bowl and adjust by adding a bit more water or flour, as appropriate, and knead for about a minute more, or until the dough achieves the desired characteristics. (You will get better with this set of procedures with experience, so don't be afraid to stop the mixer to reorient the dough if it rides high on the hook or to otherwise play around with the dough to help it along. Most home mixers are not the most effective kneading machines.)

4. When the dough is ready, remove it from the bowl and knead by hand for about 30 seconds to shape the dough into a smooth round ball. The dough ball should weigh about 12 oz. and have an internal temperature of 80-85 degrees F (which is considered optimum for dough fermentation). Wipe the dough ball with a small amount of oil and place in a bowl or other suitable container. (You can use a bowl, a metal container or even a plastic storage bag or empty bread bag)

5. Cover the dough container and place in the refrigerator, preferably for a period of 24-48 hours. If the dough is to be used beyond 48 hours, it is advisable to add a small amount of sugar (about 1/2 t.) to the water of the recipe at the same time the salt is added. This will help feed the yeast to extend the dough's useful life.

6. When the dough is to be used, remove it from the refrigerator, place it on a work surface, lightly dust with a bit of bench flour, and cover with a sheet of plastic wrap. Let the dough warm up at room temperature for about 1 to 2 hours, or until the dough achieves an internal temperature of around 60-65 degrees F. (The dough will reach the desired temperature faster in the summer than in the winter.)

7. About an hour before making the pizza, place the pizza stone (or tiles) on the lowest oven rack position and preheat to 500-550 degrees F for at least one hour. 

8. Shape the dough into a 12-inch round and place on a pizza peel lightly dusted with flour, corn meal or semolina. (Alternatively, the dough round can be placed on a well-seasoned 12-inch or larger pizza screen.)

9. Dress the pizza round with pizza sauce, cheeses (sliced or shredded) and any other desired toppings (but remember that too many toppings will alter the bake time and the top and bottom of the pizza may not finish baking at the same time).

10. Bake the pizza for about 5-6 minutes, or until the crust is nicely browned and the cheeses are bubbling. Remove from the oven and let cool for a few minutes before slicing and serving.

You might also want to take a look at Reply #1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1000.msg8931.html#msg8931. I attempted at that post to explain how to minimize problems with doughs. That post expands upon many of the points covered above and may be helpful to you.

Good luck.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: pftaylor on June 05, 2005, 11:00:39 AM
All,
Do not underestimate the power of the force which lies deep within Pete-zza. He has the ability to play Jedi mind tricks with any recipe. The results are simply spectacular.

One would do well to follow the teaching of such a wise pizza master.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: tjacks88 on June 14, 2005, 12:26:47 AM
I have been working with Pete-zzas' version of Tom Lehmann's recipes and have been really happy with the results. I am looking for a thin crust pretty much out to the edge, simliar to what I experienced while growing up in New Jersey. I live in Colorado at about 5000', so lower humidity and rise times differ somewhat, but my quest for home pizzamaking has gone on for the past 7 years while at this altitude, so this is all I know right now, and a lower altitude might actually be more difficult for me since this is what I am used to. The low humidity seems to be the most challenging and sometimes variable part for me, in all of my cooking with flour.

Here is what I did:

KASL 100%
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: tjacks88 on June 14, 2005, 12:47:45 AM
Bummer - too large of a file size from the pictures dumped my message, here we go again.

I used Peter's recipe for 63% hydration for 16" pie but divided it into 2 balls that made 2 13" thin pies. I used escalon and polly-o mozz.

30.5 hours in the fridge in metal covered trays. Oven was 465 and cooked each for 8 minutes.

Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: scott r on June 19, 2005, 09:14:05 PM
This lehmann pie turned out great, an 800 degree quick bake, saputo gold mozzarella and locotelli romano cheese, no autolyse or sugar.  I just wanted to post some high temp pics for this thread.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on June 19, 2005, 09:31:25 PM
scott,

That is quite an impressive pizza. Thanks for posting the photos.

Can you provide some additional details, like which particular Lehmann dough recipe you used, whether the dough was a same-day room-temperature fermented dough (as opposed to a refrigerated one), the size of the pizza you made, the texture of the crust and rim, and the type of sauce you used? I don't recall that anyone has used the Lehmann dough at such a high bake temperature. It makes me wonder what would happen if one tried to do the same thing in a wood-fired oven.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: scott r on June 20, 2005, 12:09:54 AM
Peter, I used your basic recipe from the above post, and ended up with 6 500 gram dough balls. I was making roughly 15 inch pies.

Flour KASL high-gluten, Grocery store bottled water 63%, Sicilian non iodized sea salt 1.75%, Raineri unfiltered olive oil 1%, SAF brand IDY 0.25%

This pie was a day 4 retarded dough topped with a combo of 6in1's and Famoso san marzanos.  The texture of the pie was amazing, crisp on the outside, melt in your mouth on the inside. I had used an autolyse the last time I made this dough and I thought it was a little too airy for a ny style.  I know that classic NY street pizza is probably not baked above 600 degrees, but I do really like what the higher temp brings to the table as far as taste and texture goes.  I decided to skip the autolyse this time and I did not really notice much of a difference in the end.  Still the same problem, a little too much spring for my taste.  I really feel guilty calling this a problem, as everyone that tasted these pizzas said that they were the best that I have ever made.  It is funny, I have totally raised my standards.  Where before I was just struggling to make a pie that tasted like it came from a real pizzeria, now I am shooting for making a pie that is the best I have ever tasted anywhere.  So far I think my favorite all time pizza is one that I had at Grimaldi's, but this might change next week.  I have a chance to work in NY for the whole week, and I plan to try a different elite pizzeria every day.  I will also stop at pepe's on the way down, and sally's on the way back. I can't wait to see how mine are really stacking up against the big guys.  It has been a few months since I have been there, so I know my memory could be playing tricks on me.

Here is another pic from a pie with different cheese and sauce, but the same dough at day 3.  This was for a friend who likes extra cheese

Also, one tip for anyone else using the self clean cycle.  I have found my best results come when I let my oven get up to temp (700-850), then I put the stone in for just a few minutes.  It is a very thin stone made by Artstone, and takes about the same amount of time to reach its optimum temp (600-750) as it takes me to shape and dress my pizza skin.  Obviously this will not work if you are making more than one pie, but usually for me one is all I need.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: jeancarlo on June 26, 2005, 12:26:51 PM
I wish I could make this recipe Pete-zza but I can't find none of the flours mentioned. Maybe if you can convert the recipe using all-purpose flour, then I would be able to make it.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on June 26, 2005, 02:58:07 PM
jeancarlo,

I forgot for a moment that you are in Mexico. Sometimes when I go to Mexico I bring high-gluten and bread flour with me. I do this since I know from having looked in Sam's, Wal-Mart's and some of the local food stores--and also from a nice talk I had with a local baker--that the only flour available in most parts of Mexico to use for pizza is a local version of what we call all-purpose flour. As I indicated on another post on this thread, my daughter-in-law made pizza dough using that flour because she didn't want to bring other flours to Mexico just to make pizza. So I came up with a Lehmann NY style dough recipe for her to use with the local flour.

I'm sure I can come up with a Lehmann NY style dough recipe for you to try out in Mexico using all-purpose flour. If you want to give me the dough batch size, the type of yeast you are using, and a preferred hydration level (if you have one), and the size of pizza you want to make, then I am certain I can come up with a formulation for you to try out. If you'd like, I can give you a recipe for just a single pizza of any size you'd like, so you can make just one to play around with. All-purpose flour isn't that much different from a weight standpoint from high-gluten flour. The resultant pizza crust will be different, but it will still be enjoyable. I know from a prior post that you have a Lincoln oven and that you can make a hand-tossed pizza, which is what the Lehmann dough is, so it looks like you may be in a position to try out the Lehmann recipe. I'll leave it up to you.

Peter

Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: scott r on July 27, 2005, 12:04:46 AM
same recipe as above, but with no oil.  This pie was very soft and moist on the inside.  The crust texture and flavor was very similar to what I had in NY at the coal oven joints.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: David on July 27, 2005, 09:31:04 AM
Looks good Scott.Did you add any sugar for the longer retardation as suggested by Peetza?
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: scott r on July 27, 2005, 12:08:06 PM
no, I did not need any sugar, and this dough was at least four days old.  This was a cold rise, and my fridge is pretty new, so things stay quite cool.  I think the sugar is only needed if your fridge is on the warm side.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: OzPizza on August 08, 2005, 04:12:27 AM
Had my first go with Pete's variation for 2 x 12" pizzas on the weekend. I was able to finally source some 14% Flour produced by a mill called Ben Furney (product is known as Maxi-Pro Flour- cost $A14 for 25kg!). I used a Salter Aquatronic digital kitchen scale I bought on Sat, which unfortunately I found out only measures to min 1/4 Oz. Nontheless I was able to get pretty close to Pete's quantities. Mind you I think I'll now buy a micro scale to do the finer measurements. I combined the ingredients in the Kitchenaid K5SS Heavy Duty Stand Mixer I recently picked up and followed Pete's instructions, though I may have gone a bit over time thinking my dough wasn't windowpaning properly. after doing a weigh in I realised I was very slightly off in weight (1oz) so I added the missing flour and ended up with a correctly weighted, very good feeling piece of dough.

Then yesterday evening, 24hrs later I removed the 2 dough balls from their container in the fridge and let them warm up. I used a IR thermometer to verify they were approx 52*F when they came out. I managed to get them up to 65*F within the hour as my kitchen was fairly warmly around 70*F. They were almost too easy to stretch at first and I over-stretched them both (and had some uneven thin spots) without trying, which annoyed me as I didn't want to beat up the dough too much by reshaping it again.  I had also pre-heated my Equipex 330 oven for a bit over an hour as this was it's maiden run. It had a recommended fresh pizza temp of 300*c or roughly 585*F, so I thought I'd try it out. It's a bit hard to know as most people here seemed to be limited by their domestic oven temps where as comercial countertops like mine can do 600*F+. The Equipex can go as high as 662*F, which is probably overkill for NY style. Once thing for sure is that it cooked both pizza pretty fast, perhaps faster than I was prepared for. The first had a really nice golden brown color and the second I mistimed fractionally and the crust blacked a bit too much. Unfortunately amidst my excitement I forgot to pickup my camera-phone which was right in front of me and take quick some snapshots.

To the taste: The first pizza was cooked with a very small amount of shredded Mozzeralla put down before the sauce and featured pepperoni. The second one had slightly more sauce no pepperoni, mozzerella, some MasterFoods Pizza topper (herb and spice mix) and also some fresh grated Parmigiano-Reggiano. To me the second pizza was the better tasting despite the slight overcooking. My only other observation was the there was some bubbling and the crust did seem to rise quite nicely with some good air pockets (noticed some air pockets occur when shaping the dough also!), but I didn't achieve the droop, making me think the texture was a bit too firm. With that said the slices were on the small side cause of the relatively small size of the pie so it may have been harder to see then droop under their own weight.

My thoughts for next time are trying to knead the dough a little less, doublechecking the finished dough temp (didn't have therm), giving a bit more warm up time out of the fridge, trying not to over work the dough when shaping it, and naturally keeping a closer eye on the cooking time.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: JF_Aidan_Pryde on August 17, 2005, 08:40:05 PM
Hi Oz,

Woah, looks like you finally found some 14% protein flour! Or else being equal, how does the end result
compare with regular flour? Also, where can I buy the same flour?
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on August 20, 2005, 09:56:44 PM
One of my pet projects for some time has been to develop an "entry level" Lehmann NY style dough. By "entry level", I mean a Lehmann NY style dough that is based on all-purpose flour and the use of a pizza screen in a normal home oven. What has especially motivated me to develop such a pizza is the fact that I frequently vacation in Mexico where I help my daughter-in-law make pizzas for family and friends. Unfortunately, as I have reported several times before, about the only white flour available in Mexican retail markets to make pizza is a Mexican version of all-purpose flour. There is no bread flour and no high-gluten flour. I have been willing to bring some King Arthur Sir Lancelot high-gluten flour to Mexico with me, but my daughter-in-law has forbidden it and insists on using only local Mexican flours.

During my most recent visit to Mexico, from which I returned a few days ago, I prepared two pizzas, shown below, based on a basic Lehmann NY style dough but using a Mexican all-purpose flour instead of high-gluten flour. The recipes I used were a 16-inch Lehmann dough recipe and a 14-inch Lehmann dough recipe, both of which have been posted elsewhere on this thread. Since I was substituting Mexican all-purpose flour (the Harina de Trigo San Antonio Tres Estrellas brand of all-purpose flour) for the high-gluten flour I normally use, I made small tweaks to the ratio of flour and water to lower the hydration level to one more suitable (60%) to the use of all-purpose flour. The Mexican all-purpose flour I used has a protein content of 11.5%, which is similar to many U.S. all-purpose flours.

The preparation of the dough and its subsequent handling to make pizza skins was as reported many times before on this thread, but using a food processor to do all the mixing and kneading. The first pizza was a standard 16-inch pepperoni pizza, and the second pizza was a 14-inch Mexican-themed pizza using ground beef, a McCormick taco seasoning, red peppers, diced onions, and a blend of shredded cheddar, Monterey Jack, asadero and queso blanco cheeses. This was not some exotic blend of cheeses I put together. It came in a package from a local Sam's. The basic tomato sauce for both pizzas was a blend of lightly cooked 6-in-1 tomatoes (one of my daughter-in-law's absolute favorites--which I am permitted to bring with me to Mexico), Penzeys pizza seasoning, a diced clove of fresh garlic, a bit of olive oil, some grated Parmigiano-Reggiano cheese, and a pinch of sugar.

Both pizzas were baked on pizza screens which were placed on a pizza stone that had been preheated for about an hour at 500 degrees F. The total bake time in each case was around 7-8 minutes. The photos below show the two pizzas. Everyone but me fully enjoyed the pizzas. I guess making and eating too many good high-gluten crusts has spoiled me. I thought the tastes and flavors of the pizzas were perfectly fine, but I found the crust to be too soft, too light, not chewy or crunchy enough, and not browned enough--either top or bottom--for my tastes. I knew I could do better. I had neither time nor materials to prove the point while I was in Mexico so I decided to bring some of the Mexican all-purpose flour back to the U.S. with me to experiment with once I got back to Texas. On the plane trip back, I outlined in my mind how I would attempt to improve on the all-purpose flour version of Tom Lehmann's NY style dough recipe. The results of that effort, along with photos, are detailed in the next post.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on August 20, 2005, 10:02:44 PM
My plan of attack to improve upon my Mexican all-purpose Lehmann NY style dough was fourfold. I would use a basic Lehmann dough recipe (in this case, for a 12-inch test pizza) but (1) I would use all-purpose flour (Mexican), (2) a lower hydration level, (3) vital wheat gluten, and (4) dried dairy whey. I have written before on using vital wheat gluten to increase the protein content of bread flour, and I have written before on using dairy whey to improve the coloration of crusts based on using Italian 00 flours, which tend naturally to be quite light in color. But, until the most recent experiment, I had not before used either vital wheat gluten or dairy whey with all-purpose flour in a Lehmann dough recipe. I will hasten to point out that neither is original with me. Both vital wheat gluten and dairy whey are used from time to time by professional pizza operators to achieve the unique qualities offered by these ingredients. The finished crust will not absolutely mimic one based on using a high-gluten flour, but the crust will be denser, chewier and crunchier than a crust based only on all-purpose flour and with a more pronounced degree of coloration. Both vital wheat gluten and dried dairy whey are relatively inexpensive ingredients and fairly widely available (I found both at Whole Foods).

The recipe I created to perform the most recent experiment was as follows (together with baker’s percents):

100%, All-purpose flour (I used Mexican but U.S. all-purpose flour can be used as well), 7.15 oz. (1 3/4 c. plus 4 t.)
60%, water (temp. adjusted to achieve a finished dough temp. of 80 degrees F), 4.29 oz. (a bit more than 1/2 c.)
1.75%, Salt, 0.13 oz. (a bit more than 5/8 t.)
1%, Oil, 0.07 oz. (a bit less than 1/2 t.)
0.25%, IDY, 0.018 oz. (1/6 t.)
3%, Dairy whey, 0.22 oz. (a bit more than 1 t.)
Thickness factor (TF) = 0.105

It will be noted that the above formulation does not reflect the use of vital wheat gluten. For those who are interested in these sorts of things, in order to make the all-purpose flour behave more like high-gluten flour from a protein standpoint (once enhanced with the vital wheat gluten), it is necessary to first determine the difference in protein content between the two flours. Using 14.2% as the benchmark for the high-gluten flour (the protein level of the King Arthur Sir Lancelot flour), I subtracted the protein content of the all-purpose flour, 11.5%, from 14.2%. This yielded a difference of 2.7%. Each 1% of vital wheat gluten, by weight of flour, added to the all-purpose flour increases the protein content by 0.6%. In our case, the percent of vital wheat gluten that is required to be added to the all-purpose flour is equal to 2.7 divided by 0.6 (4.5%) times the weight of flour in the above recipe (7.15 oz.), or about 0.32 oz. Using the conversion data on the package of vital wheat gluten, this translates to a bit more than 1 tablespoon of vital wheat gluten. Because the vital wheat gluten is dry, it is also necessary to compensate for this by increasing the amount of water in the recipe by 1.5 times the weight of the vital wheat gluten added. This is about 1 tablespoon. For all intents and purposes, it will be sufficient to just add about a tablespoon or more of vital wheat gluten for a 12-inch size pizza and increase it proportionately for larger sizes. Likewise with the dairy whey. Absolute precision is not necessary. What is especially nice for me is that the vital wheat gluten and dairy whey are lightweight and only small amounts are necessary. This means I can easily bring these ingredients with me to Mexico on future trips.

The dough was prepared in a straightforward manner. The salt was dissolved in the water (at about 74 degrees F), and the flour, yeast, vital wheat gluten and dairy whey were combined and gradually added to the water/salt mixture and mixed at speed 1 of my KitchenAid mixer, for about 2 minutes. The oil was then added and kneaded into the dough, and the kneading continued for about another 6-7 minutes at speed 2. After about 30 seconds of final hand kneading and shaping, the finished dough ball was coated lightly with oil and placed in the refrigerator in a covered container. The finished dough weight was 12.40 ounces, and the finished dough temperature was 80 degrees F. The dough remained in the refrigerator for about 26 hours, following which it was brought to room temperature for about 2 hours in preparation for shaping. The dough handled extremely well, with a nice balance between extensibility (stretchiness) and elasticity (springback). I attribute the good handing qualities of the dough to the addition of the dairy whey. This is a quality I previously noted and reported on when I used dairy whey in experiments with the Italian Caputo 00 flour.

Once the dough was stretched out to 12 inches, it was placed on a 12-inch pizza screen and dressed in a standard pepperoni style. The pizza was baked on the lowest oven rack position of the oven, which had been preheated for about 10 minutes at 500-550 degrees F. No pizza stone was used at all. The total bake time was about 8 minutes. The photos below show the finished product.

The pizza was very good, and one that, after many prior unsuccessful attempts, am prepared to recommend to those who wish to try out a Lehmann dough recipe but do not have access to high-gluten flour. The crust was chewy, crunchy, yet it was light in texture with a nice crumb structure with holes of random sizes. The crust was also considerably darker than those I made in Mexico. There’s no doubt in my mind that the vital wheat gluten and the dairy whey were responsible for the improvements. I don’t want to suggest that the results will be indistinguishable from a crust made with high-gluten flour. What I am prepared to say is that the pizza will be considerably better than one using only all-purpose flour—in just about all respects--to the point where many may not notice the difference. I also hope that fellow member jeancarlo, who recently opened a pizzeria in El Grullo, Mexico will read this post and test out the above recipe (if he can locate supplies of vital wheat gluten and dairy whey) to see if it is suitable for Mexicans craving a NY style pizza.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: JF_Aidan_Pryde on August 20, 2005, 10:53:57 PM
Pete,
Once again,  you've made me hungry.

Those pies look awesome. I will try to hunt down those two ingredients and see if I can repeat your results.

Keep up the great work!
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: OzPizza on August 21, 2005, 05:36:05 AM
Hi Oz,

Woah, looks like you finally found some 14% protein flour! Or else being equal, how does the end result
compare with regular flour? Also, where can I buy the same flour?

JF, I have to say there is zero comparison to using normal flour. Hydration rates aside, regular flour doesn't have anything like the right taste, it's pretty bland. The closest would be Defiance breadflour with gluten flour added, but the result and taste are still a ways off.

I sourced my Ben Furney Maxi-Pro from Rice Distributors who have and outlet in Kirawee, I had to go for the 25kg professional quantity for the princely sum of $A14. I was advised by the bloke at Rice Distributors that Ben Furney was superior even to the AFM Black Label high protein in protein level and would give me the pizza result I was after(he knew quite a bit about using various flour grades for Pizza). I don't have Rice Distributtors number handy, but they are in the Yellow Pages.

I'm off now to commence tonight's pizzas with last weeks defrosted dough. Wish me luck! I'll post some better pics this time!

Andrew
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: OzPizza on August 21, 2005, 09:17:57 PM
Another real success tonight, this time with frozen, properly thawed dough.

I made 2 12"s. First one was a little too much to the front of the oven, so the front was a little less cooked than than the back.  Wasn't too bad a result still:

(http://members.ozemail.com.au/~jazzman/Pizza/DSC_0067%20(Medium).JPG)
(http://members.ozemail.com.au/~jazzman/Pizza/DSC_0072%20(Medium).JPG)
(http://members.ozemail.com.au/~jazzman/Pizza/DSC_0074%20(Medium).JPG)

The Second pizza was the one. It had all the right attributes, I got positioned properly in the oven for starters.

(http://members.ozemail.com.au/~jazzman/Pizza/DSC_0076%20(Medium).JPG)
(http://members.ozemail.com.au/~jazzman/Pizza/DSC_0081%20(Medium).JPG)
(http://members.ozemail.com.au/~jazzman/Pizza/DSC_0082%20(Medium).JPG)
(http://members.ozemail.com.au/~jazzman/Pizza/DSC_0085%20(Medium).JPG)
(http://members.ozemail.com.au/~jazzman/Pizza/DSC_0089%20(Medium).JPG)
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: JF_Aidan_Pryde on August 22, 2005, 04:25:13 AM
Andrew,

Those look like some awesome pies. Thanks for the info on the distributor. One of these
days I'll have to drive there and get a bag. $14 is pretty cheap man! Sure beats those
1KG packs of Italian bread flour from the deli.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on August 22, 2005, 03:52:25 PM
Andrew,

From the looks of your most recent efforts, it seems that your newfound higher gluten flour is steering you in the right direction. You even got the "droop", which is sometimes hard to do with a 12-inch. I don't know if your oven will permit it, but you might want to try going to a larger size, say, 14-inch. As you know, the standard NY style is even bigger, 16-18 inches.

I also wondered from the photos whether you were intentionally striving for irregular shapes rather than round for your pizzas. Or whether, perhaps, the dough was too extensible to shape easily into round shapes. I like the rustic look, but wondered whether it was intentional.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: OzPizza on August 23, 2005, 04:47:10 AM
Andrew,

From the looks of your most recent efforts, it seems that your newfound higher gluten flour is steering you in the right direction. You even got the "droop", which is sometimes hard to do with a 12-inch. I don't know if your oven will permit it, but you might want to try going to a larger size, say, 14-inch. As you know, the standard NY style is even bigger, 16-18 inches.

I also wondered from the photos whether you were intentionally striving for irregular shapes rather than round for your pizzas. Or whether, perhaps, the dough was too extensible to shape easily into round shapes. I like the rustic look, but wondered whether it was intentional.

Peter

Pete,

The biggest my oven can do is 13", which you can just about make out from the photo. I am a stickler for a round pizza, but this dough is so stretchy it's taking some getting used. I think the more I make, the better I'll get with regard to uniform shaping. I have make a slightly irregular slice to capture the droop, more like a slice from a 16" I'd say, but it was good for illustrating the result.

I have 2 of my close friends and colleagues are coming over tomorrow night for my pizzas. One of my friends is the guy who got to go to John's at Bleeker St. last month and has been raving about it ever since (god forbid he ever tries a more highly acclaimed NY pizzeria, I'll never hear the end!). The other one is a pizza enthusiast but has never eaten a pizza outside here or Greece. He is a topping minimalist (cheese and pepperoni) like myself many NY fans though.

For a bit of variety, I will soon have to take on some other recipes, such as American pizza and others. I'll have clocked up my 8th or 9th Lehmann pizza by tomorrow night. Not bad going for 3 weeks worth of pizzamaking and certainly more than I've made in that amount of time in the past!

Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: piroshok on August 23, 2005, 08:26:07 AM
Great looking pie Ozpizza I see you got your flour ok
May I ask you a question relating to Ben Furney Maxi-Pro from Dubbo if you can post their phone number I am currently doing a project where I should cover NSW especially Sydney area and should use the maximum gluten flour
possible I like to get intouch with the millers if possible
Thank you
 
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on August 23, 2005, 10:16:51 AM
Andrew,

You might try using a bit less water and/or reducing the fermentation time a bit. Using cooler water or a cooler refrigeration temperature (if you can achieve it) might help also.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: OzPizza on August 23, 2005, 08:04:48 PM
Quote from:  Piroshok
Great looking pie Ozpizza I see you got your flour ok
May I ask you a question relating to Ben Furney Maxi-Pro from Dubbo if you can post their phone number I am currently doing a project where I should cover NSW especially Sydney area and should use the maximum gluten flour
possible I like to get intouch with the millers if possible
Thank you
 
Sorry mate, I never contacted Ben Furney directly, if you see my post from a few days ago to JF, you see that it was the distributor who put me on to the Ben Furney over the AFM I was originally looking for. I think you can find them on the web though if you google.




Andrew,

You might try using a bit less water and/or reducing the fermentation time a bit. Using cooler water or a cooler refrigeration temperature (if you can achieve it) might help also.

Peter

The water makes sense to me as I've had to add a small bit of flour each time I've made the dough, just to get the consistency right and not overly sticky.To describe it, I would say the dough takes quite a bit of work till you get it stretched out. But when it's stretched thin, its quite silky and transporting it to the peel results in a little more stretch sometimes.  It winter here and the first few batches I made had normal temp tap water, so my dough didnt hit 80F. This last batch I made on Monday for tonight (which will be the most fermented to date, 48hrs), the dough to finished up at 82F before going into the fridge. Last time batch, my dough came out of the fridge at 51F. To describe it, I would say the dough takes quite a bit of work till you get it stretched out. But when it's stretched thin, its quite silky and transporting it to the peel results in a little more stretch sometimes. If I did it on the peel it might be easier, I just don't want to push off all the semolina and have it stick. Anyway, it's easy enough to experiment next with those factors. Tonights is already there so I'll how it goes. What I'm happy with regardless so far, has been the resulting taste.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on August 23, 2005, 08:23:59 PM
Andrew,

If you'd like to max out your oven with a 13-inch size and would like help with ingredients for that size (and any specified thickness or hydration ratio), let me know. It's easy enough to do.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: piroshok on August 23, 2005, 09:12:00 PM
No problems Ozpizza found them Ben Furney Flour Mills (Dubbo, NSW) 101 Brisbane Street, 02 6884 4388
Just have to talk to them ASAP. The Victorian rep is coming to discuss few things
Thanks mate
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: piroshok on August 24, 2005, 06:26:37 AM
Ozpizza the mill contacted me this arvo with some news and tech info on the flour as I know Australian grain is not of the highest quality and it is mixed with Argentine, Canadian and or Russians to make up the protein levels.
Millers here don't have the highest protein flour but the good thing is that they do deliver to small operations and want the business the guy in Vic is really helpful and promised me the stuff I want so he offered a special premix and to keep up the standards from which i'll do a test run for my project in few weeks. After all I'll be buying something like 100 bags per month in the first month of operation if the project takes off the ground


Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: OzPizza on August 24, 2005, 08:02:11 PM
Ozpizza the mill contacted me this arvo with some news and tech info on the flour as I know Australian grain is not of the highest quality and it is mixed with Argentine, Canadian and or Russians to make up the protein levels.
Millers here don't have the highest protein flour but the good thing is that they do deliver to small operations and want the business the guy in Vic is really helpful and promised me the stuff I want so he offered a special premix and to keep up the standards from which i'll do a test run for my project in few weeks. After all I'll be buying something like 100 bags per month in the first month of operation if the project takes off the ground




Go to hear mate, hope it works out for you. If you can get some firm info on the protein levels I'd appreciate that. I'd hate to have been mislead about the 14% by either the SMH article or the distributor. Mind you my results with dough seem to indicate a much higher gluten level than any other doughs I've used prior to the Maxi-Pro.

Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: OzPizza on August 24, 2005, 08:10:48 PM
Andrew,

If you'd like to max out your oven with a 13-inch size and would like help with ingredients for that size (and any specified thickness or hydration ratio), let me know. It's easy enough to do.

Peter

The only thing is when I look at my paddle, which just fits into my oven, I don't know that I can get much more the than the 12". I'll give it a shot and hit it with the tape measure again though just to check.

Last nights effort was a resounding success. I would say if anything 48hrs fermentation helped the dough even more. Regarding elasticity I didn't really find any probs with over stretching, probably more the opposite. My 2nd out of 3 pizzas kept holding it's shape and I couldn't really get it perfectly round. The other 2 weren't hard to get quite round with any drama. This time I cooked all pies at the 300C setting (the recommended one for pizza) on my oven and found that I got a perfect result in just over 4 mins of cooking every time. The last 2 had the best browning, even mild charring underneath, with perfectly melted cheese. I would say my last pizza was the best of all by a slight margin. Unfortanately, with friends around, I didn't really want to wank on with a camera, so I only took a quick snap of my 1st pie with my phone. All in all 3 out of 3 people really enjoyed my pizza and credited the crust as being something really special. My good friend, the guy who's just been to NY said, hey it's not John's of Bleeker St, but for guy who's researched it and made it at home, it's awesome.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: piroshok on August 28, 2005, 10:22:41 AM
OzPizza Would you mind giving me your flour bag tech info or descriptions please? such as numbers thanks
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: OzPizza on August 29, 2005, 05:19:46 AM
OzPizza Would you mind giving me your flour bag tech info or descriptions please? such as numbers thanks


Piroshok, As I mentioned on in the thread, the Ben Furney Maxi-Pro was recommended to me by the bloke at Rice Distributors, Sydney. The only other reference to it is in the Sydney Morning Herald article about bread flour that I linked in that other thread we conversed in a little while ago. In that article it's said to be 14% protein, but you know how reliable sources like that are. I would go direct to Ben Furney on it or if you can't speak to Aziz at Rice Distributors in Sydney, he may have some specifics or can no doubt obtain them for you. So far after something like 12 Lehmann pizzas, my results keep getting better each time. I rate them as the best of any I've made since I first started experimenting 10 years ago.

Cheers,

Andrew
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: piroshok on August 29, 2005, 05:36:09 AM
Thanks Andrew I have received some tech info from them though I wanted to cross check since their specs do not match what they claim.
Nevermind I have found another miller in NSW Manildra Mills theirs seems to be higher than Burney by .25% though I said I'm forced to use additivies if the protein levels fall below 13% so it is critical for me to find the right mix otherwise I am forced to spend money on imported additives.
Anyway Manildra will drop couple of consistent 13.3-5% protein level bags of 25 kg no charge of course in a day or two they said thatcould go up to 14.5% but not reliable as discussed before there is a tolerance band where in high protein mixers allow themselves an error margin  so they aim for 12.5 to 13.3 and anything above it is a bonus.
A special mix is something else but you need to negotiate with them a bulk supply I am not certain of the quantities but rest assure it is beyond any pizzeria consumption rate even for overseas standards.
My project projected consumption is about 500 to 700 25kg bags for the first month.   
Will test it soon I may make some pizza but prefer the ones made in trays or teglia

cheers!

Ricardo
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: OzPizza on August 30, 2005, 04:22:32 AM
Interesting Ricardo. Hopefully, next time I can speak to this Aziz bloke more in depth about his knowledge of protein levels beyond what he told me on the phone about Ben Furney being stronger than AFM's product. At least on the positive side, even if the Maxi-Pro is at least a little above 13%, I'm at least using something better than the previous best deli bought Italian 12.6%. Figures aside, the resulting dough to me seems to have the attributes I'm expecting, the hydration levels seem to match the Lehmann recipe very closely and the final resulting pizza comes across as authentically as I think I can ask for, in terms of crust characteristics and flavour...

Keep us posted on your project. By the sound of you are trying to get a NY Pizzeria experience going in Melbourne. I wish I had time to investigate putting together a NY style restaurant in Sydney as I believe I could clean up there with such a product.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: JF_Aidan_Pryde on September 06, 2005, 01:31:10 AM
Oz,
I've looked in google, the yellow pages, white pages but I can't seem to find "Rice Distributors".
Would it be possible for you to post their contact details here? A phone number will do.
Thanks!
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: OzPizza on September 06, 2005, 01:52:36 AM
Oz,
I've looked in google, the yellow pages, white pages but I can't seem to find "Rice Distributors".
Would it be possible for you to post their contact details here? A phone number will do.
Thanks!

That's odd mate, as I don't keep their number on hand, I just Yellowpages.com searched them and their details came straight up: http://www.yellowpages.com.au/search/postSearchEntry.do?businessType=&businessName=rice+distributors&locationClue=NSW. If you enquire about flour, they will probably put you through to a guy named Aziz (don't know if thats how he spells it), who is based in the suburbs, Kirawee I think. Sorry for sounding sketchy, but my gf got the flour for me because it's on her way home.

Cheers!
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: JF_Aidan_Pryde on September 06, 2005, 09:17:58 PM
Hi Oz,
Thanks for that. I just talked to Aziz  but I think he got the wrong impression -- the next thing you know he was trying to sell me tomato sauce, capcicums, yeast and what not. He gave me his address which is in Miranda but was relunctant to give me the address of his distributor in Kirrawee, thinking I'll go back to them instead of him in the future.

So I'm kinda stuck. Would you have the Kirrawee outlet address handy? I managed to confirm the protein content btw: 13.7%. Not bad at all. :)
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: OzPizza on September 06, 2005, 10:23:09 PM
Hi Oz,
Thanks for that. I just talked to Aziz but I think he got the wrong impression -- the next thing you know he was trying to sell me tomato sauce, capcicums, yeast and what not. He gave me his address which is in Miranda but was relunctant to give me the address of his distributor in Kirrawee, thinking I'll go back to them instead of him in the future.

So I'm kinda stuck. Would you have the Kirrawee outlet address handy? I managed to confirm the protein content btw: 13.7%. Not bad at all. :)

I played it kind of cool with Aziz on the phone, as if I was in the business and experimenting with some new recipes. Unfortunately, it was my gf who went there, so I'd have to ask her for the address specifics if she can recall them. What was the place in Miranda out of curiosity? A retailer or something?
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: JF_Aidan_Pryde on September 06, 2005, 10:32:07 PM
I played it kind of cool with Aziz on the phone, as if I was in the business and experimenting with some new recipes. Unfortunately, it was my gf who went there, so I'd have to ask her for the address specifics if she can recall them. What was the place in Miranda out of curiosity? A retailer or something?

Place at Miranda is actually his office.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: OzPizza on September 12, 2005, 03:36:01 AM
I made some more Lehmann dough last night, after a brief flirtation with Randy's American, which wasn't to my taste (a bit sweet to me).

It came off the hook at an ideal 85F, really good texture, on exact weight, and went into the fridge shortly after.

It occurred to me today, after reading much from Pete and the like about domestic fridges not really getting cold enough a lot of the time, to measure my own GE side by side fridge. I had the feeling that mine is pretty cold as early in the piece I learned the hard way when I used to run it a 7 (3/4 on the dial) and a lot of things would freeze. So I measured it today with my non-contact IR thermometer and got a reading of 38-39F, just about 6 degrees off freezing (one packet drink next to the top shelf vent was actually part frozen when I touched it). The dough itself also register 38F in the container. While I was there I also checked the freezer, which also seems to be quite efficient, (I  run it below 1) It registered 14F. I could easily drop the temp in it since theres a lot left on the dial. Mind you my last frozen results were superb anyway. I can't remember how these temps compare exactly but I seem to remember the average fridge temp reported being higher.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: OzPizza on September 14, 2005, 09:58:03 PM
I ended up going with a 48hr ferm again this time. Yet again results were very good. The dough seems like it had just the right amount of extensibility and was pretty easy to shape. I also have begun rotating my pizza in the last minutes of cooking to even out the browning of the crust.

After just over 5 mins at 572F this is how it turned out:

Nicely browned with a slight char:
(http://img365.imageshack.us/img365/2055/dsc0014large2ru.jpg)

Crust had nice texture:
(http://img366.imageshack.us/img366/9353/dsc0015large3xl.jpg)

underneath:
(http://img366.imageshack.us/img366/3597/dsc0016large2xu.jpg)
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: foster444 on September 15, 2005, 06:42:50 AM
That's overcooked for a real NY style pie.  That is, you wouldn't see such a dark pie in a NY shop.

Doesn't mean you don't like it that way.  Just mentioned it in case you wanted a point of reference.

Bob
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: OzPizza on September 15, 2005, 09:32:49 PM
That's overcooked for a real NY style pie. That is, you wouldn't see such a dark pie in a NY shop.

Doesn't mean you don't like it that way. Just mentioned it in case you wanted a point of reference.

Bob

That was my second pie and probably the darkest I've ever gotten one. It's all part of the experimenting.

Here's the first one I cooked much lighter:
(http://img400.imageshack.us/img400/6894/dsc0010large8vj.jpg)
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: foster444 on September 15, 2005, 11:15:44 PM
Again, this is not a criticism.  You may not have much experience with a New York type of pizza, being from down under.
I'm sure I wouldn't know what an Aussie pie is supposed to look like.

Even on your second pic which is not as well done as the other, those brown patches of cheese between the pepperoni slices show, to my eye, overcooking.  Those browned over cheese areas won't stretch and don't offer the right sensual experience one gets from the perfectly baked pie.  But it's a much better looking pie than the darker one.  It might have come out of the oven 30 seconds sooner.

When the cheese is all nice and melted and bubbly, and JUST looking like it wants to start browning over...it's done.  The pictures of the slice at the top of these pages, the logo, look perfect.  You don't see those browned patches; perhaps a few individual small browned peaks  Use those pics as a model, again, if you're trying to cook your pie "in style."

On the pic of the very dark pizza, if you see the little bits of non-browned cheese just surrounding the pepperonis...if the whole pie looked like that, it'd be a dead ringer for a pizza from a shop in Brooklyn.  On the pic of the lighter pie, if you look just to the "southeast" of the pepperoni closest to the camera.  It's got one little island of brown but just south of that island is pizza heaven.

If you scroll from one pie pic to the other and back, you get a real sense of why that first dark pie shouted out to me, "overcooked!"

Please don't take this as criticism. I have no doubt that your pie tastes as great as it looks.

Bob
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: scott r on September 16, 2005, 12:46:38 AM
I just wanted to add that I have found certain brands of cheese that brown much easier than other brands.  As much as I love Poly-o, I just did a browning shootout of some of my favorites, and it lost.  On the same test pie it was mostly browned over while the section I had topped with Grande stayed white.  For me this is an important quality, because I prefer the more typical NY style of no browning.  Some people I know that grew up eating other styles can't even enjoy a pizza if it doesn't have char on top!
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: OzPizza on September 16, 2005, 01:56:47 AM
Interesting cheese brands and browning should be mentioned. I just picked up some new mozzarellas here. They are from the most popularly used brand(by pizzerias) here called 'Caboolture'produced by the biggest Dairy producer in this country, Dairy Farmers Inc. Apparently they export quite a lot of this Mozz overseas too, Asia and ME mainly though. I got some part-skim, as well as whole milk to try tonight. Subsequently, today I stumbled up an excellent article in the PMQ Aus/NZ edition all about our mozzarellas and featuring the brand I just purchased. It clears spells out the differences with browning, texture, flavour, etc. between part-skim and whole milk mozz. Also, the article mentions we here in Oz consume 133 million pizza per annum or roughly seven person, which is not bad per capita. Who says there's no room for NY style here  ;D

http://www.pmq.com.au/mag/2003september/cheese.html
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: foster444 on September 16, 2005, 06:39:25 AM
Ozzie:

If you can make a real NY pizza in Australia, the world will beat a path to your door.

Bob
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: foster444 on September 16, 2005, 06:50:44 AM
If I can figure out how to paste this, it just happens that we got a pizza from our local pizzeria tonight.  It's decent pizza, nothing special.  But it looks like pretty typical pizza  that you would get in the New York area.  It's cold so it looks kind of dead.  But I wanted you to see the doneness of a typical NY pie.  Seeing as you want to bring real NY pizza to Australia, an admirable goal!, I hope this helps.

Bob

Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on September 16, 2005, 12:51:12 PM
Bob,

In looking at Andrew's (OzPizza) photos and your recent photo as well, it occurs to me that, in addition to trying to get the best flours, Andrew may not have the best cheeses to work with either. That has always been a problem with me in my Lehmann pizzas. The NYC area has an abundance of the best mozzarella cheeses, including Grande in many places. They are among the best in the country. Where I live outside of Dallas, I can get some wonderful locally-made fresh mozzarella cheese (at close to $14 a pound for the best) and I can get imported and domestic buffalo mozzarella cheeses, but the only whole-milk processed mozzarella cheese I can find is a WalMart brand. This is after looking at the cheese section of every supermarket or specialty food store I go into. I have even been experimenting with Mexican "pizza" cheeses, looking for something with the right melting and browning characteristics for a NY style. I had been hoping to find something locally that will meet my requirements, whether of the whole-milk or part-skim variety. Other than bringing back better cheeses from visits to other parts of the country, as I have been doing, the logical remaining option is to find someone locally who will sell me some of their good cheeses or otherwise order a Grande or other high quality cheese from a PennMac or elsewhere and have it shipped to Texas.

I admire Andrew's tenacity and persistence in trying to perfect his NY style pizzas in the face of long odds. I can tell from his passion that he will continue the quest.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: foster444 on September 16, 2005, 05:53:02 PM
Peter, I think you are quite right.

I'm sure it's for a myriad of reasons that NY pizza is found in NY, that Bass Pale Ale is found in Burton on Trent, that San Francisco Sourdough bread is found in SF, etc..

I noted that Oz mentioned low moisture mozzerella and that can contribute to the browning outcome as well, I would imagine.

The only thing is, what got me started on this thread was his picture of what I thought was an obviously overdone pizza.  And the point I was making was that Oz may not have a model on which to gauge his results in striving for a NY pie.

Just the concept of a NY pie can be nebulous.  John's Pizza on Bleeker St. is a NY pie and is certainly not a stereotyped specimen of a "NY pie." 

I can say without reservation that I am a fan and a booster of Ozzie in trying to make the real thing down under.  A good NY pie (or NY bagel for that matter) anywhere is bound to be a hit. AND for any expatriate New Yorkers down under, to find a REAL NY pie would surely bring tears of joy.

Bob
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: foster444 on September 16, 2005, 06:06:02 PM
One other point comes to mind, Pete and Ozzie:

Your pizzas may well be a hell of a lot better than anything you would ever find in NY.  I would think that a real chef would scoff at what you would find in our local pizzerias.  The New York Times often runs recipes for pizzas which bear no resemblance to pizzeria pizza and to one in the know, these would be much more refined cuisine.

The kick for me when I make pizza is to make it as close to the real thing as possible.  I could go down the street and get the real thing for $7.  But to make my own just as well (I'm getting very close) is satisfying.

In my roundabout way, I'm saying that you can make any pizza you want and it's wonderful.  But if you're cooking to a style, just as when you're brewing beer to a style, you are trying to emulate that style to the greatest extent possible.

If you want to  brew an English Pale Ale or an Oktoberfest, you want the result to be within the parameters of that style.

If you want to brew for the hell of it, or to concoct your own creation, the sky's the limit.

I hope I conveyed my point understandably.

You know part of it too, Pete, not to sound too chauvinistic, is that you can get pretty much anything here in NY in terms of ingredients.  It's easy to take for granted and not realize how hard things can be to find elsewhere.

I remember how hard it was to get a good pickle when I lived in Buffalo!  And pastrami?  Fuggedaboudit!

Bob
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: foster444 on September 16, 2005, 06:12:41 PM
I once got a couple of slices in Toronto.

Yeccchhh!!!!

I think that was the first time I realized that there such a thing as "NY pizza."

(Sorry Toronto; great city, lousy pizza).

My recollection of the pizza in Buffalo was that it was indistinguishable from NY pizza.

This website has caused me to think about pizza more in a few weeks than I have in my whole life.

Bob
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: OzPizza on September 16, 2005, 10:38:37 PM
Had an excellent session last night. Might I add some back story for forster444. I have had more than my share of real NY pizza experiences, starting at as kid living in Westchester county in the 70's. For me there are some definite taste factors of the NY crust combined with use of cheese. The definitions breaks down into different variations on the theme from there depending who's making it.

I would say with this commercial caboolture mozzarella I tried last night was as good as you can get here. Sadly I didn't photograph anything  (mind you I do have a small nokia phone video of a slice I sent to a friend) because of the company I had. The whole milk had awesome stretch, perfect browning and great taste. I feel like I took another huge leap last night and am now regretting not getting any photos. Both pizza easily matched the browning of the store bought one Forster444 posted. Also, Forster if you go back to some of my other posts, you see much more ideal browning: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg15713.html#msg15713.

Here's the brief clip(low quality, 76k) for anyone who feels like downloading(opens with quicktime or realplayer):  http://members.ozemail.com.au/~jazzman/Pizza/Video014.3gp

Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: foster444 on September 16, 2005, 11:45:07 PM
Ha!  Westchester!  You don't need me telling you about New York Pizza!

Where in Westchester did you live?  And how did you end up in Australia?
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: OzPizza on September 17, 2005, 12:02:22 AM
Ha! Westchester! You don't need me telling you about New York Pizza!

Where in Westchester did you live? And how did you end up in Australia?

Rye to be exact. My first post on the forum talks about a pizza restaurant called Cosmos that I last ate pizza at circa 1985. That particular pizza still has it's 'signature' taste in my mind from back then. I'd love to trace where the owners went and whether they still make pizza somewhere.
I was an Australian who's family moved to Rye, due to my fathers job which was for a company in NYC. 10 years later they moved him to another office outside the US and I eventually ended up back here circa 1990.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: foster444 on September 17, 2005, 07:54:52 AM
A stone's throw from where I sit as I type this.  I've skated my share at Playland.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: OzPizza on September 17, 2005, 09:38:03 PM
A stone's throw from where I sit as I type this. I've skated my share at Playland.

Well, there you go. It's a small world hey. I still reflect on how neat it was as youngster to have an amusement park within 10 mins of where I lived :)
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: foster444 on September 17, 2005, 09:42:31 PM
Small world indeed, Ozzie.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: abc on September 21, 2005, 07:09:27 PM
The NYC area has an abundance of the best mozzarella cheeses, including Grande in many places. They are among the best in the country. Peter

hi, i'm new... i'm in NYC, and perhaps i shouldn't have just said that,.. but where can i pick up loaves of mozz?  i haven't seen Grande... i emailed grande last week...

i had been buying 5lb pollyo low moisture on and off for about 10 yrs, at local italian food marts and particularly BJ wholesale... about 10-12dollars for the loaf.. but never liked that it had zero aroma and grease when baked on a pizza like 'real' pizzas.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on September 22, 2005, 12:52:46 PM
abc,

Welcome to the forum.

I would be very happy for our members to be able to use the finest ingredients on a Lehmann NY style pizza dough, including the best cheeses. I was thinking of Dom DeMarco at DiFara's when I mentioned Grande cheese in my earlier post, since Dom uses the Grande line of cheeses for his pizzas.

As you may know, Grande cheese is basically distributed to professional pizza operators. In some parts of the country, it is also sold at retail, but not widely so. In most cases, the cheeses at the retail level are either private branded or otherwise do not bear the Grande label. So the only way to know if it is Grande inside the package is to ask.

On the outside chance that I might be able to identify a source of the Grande product for you, this morning I called a food distributor, DiCarlo Food Service, an independent food distributor who services the NY metro area. They carry a lot of pizza ingredients and are located in Holtsville, NY, which I understand is in Long Island. They even have a website, at http://www.dicarlofood.com/.  When I called this morning, I was told that they have a cash-and-carry store next to their main facility, where individuals can purchase from among the items carried in the store. They do not carry everything listed at their website, only the most popular items. The store is open Monday through Saturday, from 8 AM to 5 PM. They take no checks but will take Visa and Master Charge for purchases in excess of $25. I was told that one should call them, at 631-758-6000, ext. 350, to inquire as to any particular product(s) and availability, and make any necessary pre-arrangements for pickup.

I spoke mostly to Gabe in the store. He told me that they do carry the Grande cheese, but only by the case, which constitutes several "bricks" weighing a total of 55 pounds. When I asked him if he could help me find a source of the cheese in smaller quantity, he suggested inquiring in local pizzerias that use the Grande and try to prevail upon them to sell in small amounts. He also indicated that they carry a DiCarlo whole-milk mozzarella cheese that they will sell in smaller amounts. I suspect this is the type of cheese they sell to pizza operators who do not wish to pay premium prices for Grande, especially when there are any number of local sources of mozzarella cheeses of acceptable quality with better pricing.

I was also interested to learn from Gabe that the store carries many other pizza ingredients and brands of interest to us as home pizza makers. They include the Escalon tomatoes (including 6-in-1s), and a good part of the Stanislaus line of tomatoes (7/11, Alta Cucina, etc.). These are sold by the can (#10) or by the case. They do not carry any DOP San Marzano tomatoes in the store but do carry a more generic San Marzano canned tomato. (The DiCarlo website, however, shows that they carry the Vantia DOP SMs; maybe they will sell it if specifically requested).

DiCarlo's also carries the Hormel brand pepperoni and their own house brand in sliced form in a 10-pound bag. When I asked about flours, I was told that they carry the All Trumps flour (a good high-gluten flour for use in the Lehmann or any other NY style dough recipe) and also the Caputo 00 flour. When I inquired whether the Caputo flour was in the 25 kilo bag (55 pounds), he said that it was in one-kilo bags with a blue label. I believe this is not the same Caputo 00 flour most of us have been using at this forum, but rather another "blue label" 00 Caputo flour that I have heard is being tested in the U.S. and is more like all-purpose flour. But don't quote me on that, since I may not have it right.

I did not inquire as to pricing. At this point I was just trying to scope out the operation to see if they have or do anything that might be of benefit to our members who live in the NY area and are looking for the best pizza ingredients. From what I can see at this point, it looks like one could make a killer Lehmann NY pie with just the ingredients from DiCarlo's. For those who are interested, my best advice is to call DiCarlo's and see what they have to offer and double check on all the groundrules relating to cash-and-carry purchase from them. It might also be useful to inquire whether they will sell stuff shown on their website but not carried in the store.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: abc on September 23, 2005, 01:05:03 AM
how come none of the recipes seem to be tabulated in metric measure... isn't it more accurate?
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: OzPizza on September 23, 2005, 03:20:22 AM
Actually, living in a metric environment for some time myself and recently buying digital scales, I've actually found oz to be a finer measurement for scales at least. My first scale only went to 5g or 1/4 oz, which wasn't fine enough for the oz measurements in the recipe calcs done by Pete. I ended up then buying a higher resolution .5g scale that now allows me to go down to .01 oz.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on September 23, 2005, 09:35:07 AM
I suppose it depends on the scale. On my scale, grams seem to be more accurate, and when a recipe recites ingredients by grams, I just slide a little switch to the grams mode.

I have recited my recipes in ounces rather than grams because most of our members appear to be located in the U.S. and are more familiar with the U.S. standard. I know that one ounce equals 28.35 grams, so when I want to switch from ounces to grams (and vice versa), that is the conversion factor I use. If basic recipes, including the Lehmann recipe, are on a spreadsheet, the spreadsheet can also be used to do the conversions. Maybe I will indicate grams in future recipes since we now have far more members abroad than when I first joined the forum when there were only around a couple hundred members. Thanks for the thought, abc.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: abc on September 25, 2005, 03:06:47 AM
i got a Myweigh 7001dx it breaks down decimal oz. in '5's  for ex.   .05oz.

i needed .0383 oz and it won't do it...

so i guess from now on i'll convert numbers like .0383 into grams.


anyway, i tried making a 18" dough ball, and in 24 hrs in a fridge at around 45degrees F, where the dough was 80degrees F after mixing via kitchenAid Ultra, the dough had some alcohol smell... but i think i put too much saf IDY because my scale could only report .05oz, and i needed .0383 oz.  so i eyed something in bet. .0383 and .05 

after baking, the finished dough still did have some alcohol in spots... 

it will also be the last time i try my stone sitting on the oven floor...   the top of my pizza was not done, I think this is due to it being too low position in the oven... however, it will mean i cannot make 18" pies anymore because when I raise the position above the oven floor, the protrusion of my convection fan reduces my oven depth... back to smaller pies.

the other two issues w/ the first attempt dough are that i didn't get an open crumb, it was rather tight... I hand toss it and i'm very light on the pressure... i suspect i over kneaded w/ the mixer.  total time was about 13-15 min.

I used an autolyse (10min) after 2 min of combining ingredients, then adding the oil, salt, and concluding in a 10-12min final mix at speed 2 & some 3.

either i over mixed or i shouldn't go to speed3.

hydration 63%...  my first time using pcts btw, and it yielded a dough i'd previously would have added more flour into.


the second issue is, the dough was too extensible for my liking, gravity could have almost pulled it apart...  this is after 60min of rest out of the fridge.

i'd like to tighten it up.


oh, no sugar but i used 2tsp of malt.  could have left this kind of dough for 48 + hrs right?


so the 4 things i want to address

1. alcohol overfermentation
2. more open crumb
3. less extensibility
4. hoped for more oven spring

the dough has a lot of potential, it offered the most crackle that i've experienced while using the same high gluten flour while other recipes had not.

I'll make a 16" next.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on September 25, 2005, 02:07:59 PM
abc,

You make some good and valid points. Perhaps the following comments based on my experience will offer some guidance.

Scales. As between ounces and grams, I believe that grams are more accurate. By that, I mean I can measure grams more accurately on my scale than trying to split 0.05 ounce increments, although with experience I have managed to come pretty close. However, trying to achieve great accuracy with digital scales for small amounts of lightweight ingredients is prone to error. Unless you have an extremely accurate scale or a specialty scale (like the one mentioned below), you are unlikely to be able to accurately measure small amounts of lightweight ingredients. Tom Lehmann once told me in a Q/A exchange that “even a slight breeze on the scale can upset your scaling accuracy by a significant margin.” Also, the weights of ingredients like sugar, salt and yeast can vary, due to such factors as humidity, moisture and age (e.g., drying out).

For the above reasons, I usually use conversion data for converting between ounces (or grams) and volumes for the lightweight ingredients used in small quantities. The conversion data comes either from efforts of our members, including me, who have weighed one-cup quantities of ingredients like salt, sugar, yeast, and oil and converted them to one-teaspoon quantities, or from the information provided on the labeling for packages or bottles of such ingredients. However, even the conversions can be inaccurately used because a weight might be converted to an oddball volume measurement for which there is no standard measuring spoon in most homes, such as 1/16 teaspoon or 1/6 teaspoon. This forces us to make our best estimates.

I might add that there are specialized scales for weighing very small amounts of lightweight ingredients. One of our members, pftaylor, has a Frieling AccuBalance 401 scale that has a 250g./8 oz. capacity in 0.1 g./0.005 oz. increments. I suspect that using such a scale will produce more accurate weight measurements than the conversion data I use, but the differences are unlikely to materially alter the outcome of any dough that I will make. So, my advice is not to worry about trying for extreme accuracy for small amounts of lightweight ingredients. You can’t achieve it as a practical matter, so close is good enough. If you were a professional pizza operator making hundreds of pounds of dough daily, then you would be able to achieve greater accuracy because you would be using much larger amounts of everything and the error rate will be lower as a result.

Stand Mixers and Mixing Speeds. My KitchenAid stand mixer has ten speeds, labeled Stir, 2, 4, 6, 8 and 10. There are odd-numbered speeds, they just aren’t labeled. In my early days experimenting with the Lehmann dough recipe, I used speeds 2 and 3 more than I do today. I now also try to keep the total knead time down as much as possible, to around 8 minutes, so as not to overknead the dough and to rely more on biochemical gluten development. So, today, I am more likely to use the Stir, 1 and 2 speeds, and occasionally a few seconds at 3 speed at the end of the kneading process if the dough looks and feels like it might need it. Using 13-15 minutes of total knead time and speeds 2 or 3 for a good part of the total time is likely to result in an overkneaded dough, and this will show up in the form of a tight crumb in the finished crust with few, large, irregular-shaped holes, even though a high hydration level is used.

Autolyse. I have experimented on occasion using autolyse (the classic Calval autolyse) with the basic Lehmann dough recipe. However, I have not personally achieved significant advantages to suggest that I should use it all the time in the basic Lehmann basic dough. My experience has been that the crumb takes on more of a bread-like character. I might also mention that one purpose of using the autolyse is to reduce the total knead time. So using an autolyse with a long knead time somewhat defeats its purpose and is likely to contribute to a more dense, less porous crumb.

Extensibility of the Lehmann Dough. As fond as I am of the Lehmann dough, my experience with the Lehmann dough is that, in a home setting at least, it is temperature sensitive and sometimes prone to above-average extensibility (stretchiness). I have reported on this on several occasions. The Lehmann dough likes cool temperatures—in the water (just cool enough to ensure a finished dough temperature of around 80 degrees F) and low cooler/refrigerator temperatures (between 35-40 degrees F). It also doesn’t need any added sugar, although it can be added, at around 1-2% by weight of flour, if the dough is to go beyond 48 hours or so. You indicated, abc, that you used malt. You didn’t indicate whether the malt was diastatic or non-diastatic. The diastatic form of malt provides additional amylase enzymes to help extract more sugar from the starch in the flour. Most bread flours today are already malted at the miller’s so it is usually not necessary to add more since this can lead to a more slack dough. If the malt was the non-diastatic form, it offers no additional amylase enzyme and behaves essentially like any other sugar. Like any other sugar, if used in excess of what the yeast really needs, it can adversely affect the fermentation process and the outcome of the finished product.

My best advice for the next Lehmann pizza is not to worry about the small weights of ingredients, stick with the 63% hydration level (at least for now), cut back on the mixing speed and duration of knead, try to keep the finished dough on the cool side as much as possible, and dispense with the autolyse and malt. You can always decide at a later date to reintroduce either the autolyse or the malt or to reduce the hydration ratio. If the extensibility is still too high after these changes, you might consider using the dough a bit sooner next time, say, 16-18 hours.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: abc on September 25, 2005, 02:31:06 PM
abc,


Autolyse. I have experimented on occasion using autolyse (the classic Calval autolyse) with the basic Lehmann dough recipe. However, I have not personally achieved significant advantages to suggest that I should use it all the time in the basic Lehmann basic dough. My experience has been that the crumb takes on more of a bread-like character. I might also mention that one purpose of using the autolyse is to reduce the total knead time. So using an autolyse with a long knead time somewhat defeats its purpose and is likely to contribute to a more dense, less porous crumb.


you're a comprehensive writer, take my hat off you... I know it takes a lot of time and I'm sure you reread and modify and grammar check and all.

i haven't finished your informative post but wanted to comment on the autolyse dictating less kneading...  i continued to run my mixer because the dough looked like it needed that much time as i gave it to get somewhat smooth and elastic... and i stopped when though it didn't look as smooth and elastic as pictures of smooth and elastic are to be, it looked like it wasn't going to get any better if i'd continue to run it for another 10min.  i was tempted to add half a tablespoon more of flour to dry it up some but chose not to.  the temp of the dough from beginning to end was from 79 to 80.5 degrees.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: abc on September 25, 2005, 02:54:29 PM
Stand Mixers and Mixing Speeds. My KitchenAid stand mixer has ten speeds, labeled Stir, 2, 4, 6, 8 and 10. There are odd-numbered speeds, they just aren’t labeled. In my early days experimenting with the Lehmann dough recipe, I used speeds 2 and 3 more than I do today. I now also try to keep the total knead time down as much as possible, to around 8 minutes, so as not to overknead the dough and to rely more on biochemical gluten development. So, today, I am more likely to use the Stir, 1 and 2 speeds, and occasionally a few seconds at 3 speed at the end of the kneading process if the dough looks and feels like it might need it. Using 13-15 minutes of total knead time and speeds 2 or 3 for a good part of the total time is likely to result in an overkneaded dough, and this will show up in the form of a tight crumb in the finished crust with few, large, irregular-shaped holes, even though a high hydration level is used.


one thing i've been lead to believe though is you have to knead to develop the gluten for a chewy finished product that puts up a bit of fight to your biting jaw...
should i be taking the approach of almost just 'mix to combine'?
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: abc on September 25, 2005, 03:17:38 PM
Extensibility of the Lehmann Dough. As fond as I am of the Lehmann dough, my experience with the Lehmann dough is that, in a home setting at least, it is temperature sensitive and sometimes prone to above-average extensibility (stretchiness). I have reported on this on several occasions. The Lehmann dough likes cool temperatures—in the water (just cool enough to ensure a finished dough temperature of around 80 degrees F) and low cooler/refrigerator temperatures (between 35-40 degrees F). It also doesn’t need any added sugar, although it can be added, at around 1-2% by weight of flour, if the dough is to go beyond 48 hours or so. You indicated, abc, that you used malt. You didn’t indicate whether the malt was diastatic or non-diastatic. The diastatic form of malt provides additional amylase enzymes to help extract more sugar from the starch in the flour. Most bread flours today are already malted at the miller’s so it is usually not necessary to add more since this can lead to a more slack dough. If the malt was the non-diastatic form, it offers no additional amylase enzyme and behaves essentially like any other sugar. Like any other sugar, if used in excess of what the yeast really needs, it can adversely affect the fermentation process and the outcome of the finished product.
 
it's diastatic.  great catch Pete, i will leave out this malt and w/ other adjustments, see if the dough can tighten up.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on September 25, 2005, 04:05:42 PM
abc,

I don't mind putting the time and attention into what I write on the forum if I think it will help someone avoid problem areas or it results in someone being able to make a better pizza. Once you get the dough part right, you're in good shape for the rest of your pizza making career :).

It did occur to me that you didn't use a long enough autolyse. I have written many times on this topic and if it will help I will tell you how I have used autolyse in the context of the Lehmann doughs. Basically, it is this. The Calvel autolyse approach as I have been using it entails combining one-third of the flour, one-third of the water, and the yeast (commercial or a preferment), following which the dough is subjected to an autolyse rest period of 30 minutes. Then the rest of the flour and the rest of the water are added to the dough and thoroughly combined, and the process is completed by adding the olive oil (if used) and kneading that into the dough (about 2 minutes), and finally the salt. The dough is then kneaded, for about 6-7 minutes (at the 1 setting), or until the dough achieves the desired characteristics (shiny, smooth, elastic and tacky). At this point, if the dough is to be retarded, it can be subjected to another rest period (not technically an autolyse at this point) of about 15 minutes before placing the dough in the refrigerator.

There are many possible variations of the above autolyse, many of which came into being simply because bread bakers (for whom the autolyse concept was developed by Professor Calvel) didn't want to sit around for a half hour waiting for the autolyse to be completed. So they invented all sorts of short cuts. And, for the most part, they all seem to work. I have searched the PMQ.com website and done a few Google searches and have not been able to find evidence of autolyse being used by professional pizza operators, at least not in the classical sense. It seems to be more limited to artisan bread bakers.

As far as the dough kneading is concerned, you might find the following excerpt, from Mr. Lehmann himself, to be useful:

You want to mix the dough just enough so that when you take an egg size piece of dough, and form it into a ball, then holding it in two hands, with the thumbs together (pointing away from you), and on top of the dough piece, gently pull the thumbs apart. The dough skin should not tear. If it tears, you should mix the dough a little longer. The dough will have a decidedly satiny appearance. Prior to the satiny appearance the dough will have more of a curdled appearance. Do not stretch the dough out between the fingers to form a gluten film. This test for development is for bread and roll doughs, not pizza. Pizza dough is not fully developed at the mixer, instead, it receives most of its development through biochemical gluten development (fermentation). After the dough has been in the cooler for about 24 hours, you should be able to stretch the dough in your fingers and form a very thin, translucent gluten film.

I might add that not everyone agrees with Tom L. on the above, including several well know cookbook authors, writers and cable gurus who use the gluten film test for pizza dough.

Now that you have indicated the type of malt you used (diastatic), I can tell you that 2 teaspoons for about 18 ounces of flour (the amount I believe your 18-inch dough recipe works out to be) comes to just over 1% by weight of flour. A more typical amount is 0.1-0.2%. So your level was 5-10 times the usual recommended amount. That might not have helped your dough.

Peter



Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: JF_Aidan_Pryde on September 27, 2005, 12:29:35 PM
I would say with this commercial caboolture mozzarella I tried last night was as good as you can get here.

Hi Oz, where can I get this caboolture mozz you talk about? Thanks!
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on September 27, 2005, 02:57:22 PM
In my latest Lehmann NY style pizza, shown below, I tried to conduct two experiments at once. First, I decided to make an 18-inch Lehmann pizza. I have never done this before, even though it is a standard size for NY “street” pizza. It is also the largest size pizza that my oven can accommodate. In my case, I used an 18-inch pizza screen (purchased from a local restaurant equipment supply company at a cost of $4.39 plus tax) in conjunction with a pizza stone.

Second, I decided to use my Zojirushi breadmaking machine to do the kneading of the dough. I had tried this approach before with mixed results, with my major complaint being that I felt that the finished crust was too breadlike with not enough large and random sized holes (aka voids). However, I identified several possible ways of improving the use of the machine to get better results, and in my most recent effort I incorporated the changes I identified. (For background purposes, readers may want to refer to Reply # 51, page 3, at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=576.msg5486#msg5486.) For the dough itself, I decided to use a thickness factor (TF) of 0.10. I also decided to use a higher hydration ratio than before, specifically, 63%, in order to improve the chances of getting a more open and airy crumb. The formulation I ended up with was as follows (including baker’s percents and gram equivalents):

100%, KASL high-gluten flour, 15.33 oz. (434.59 g.), (3 1/2 c. plus 2 T., both level measures)
63%, Water, 9.66 oz. (273.79 g.), (a bit less than 1 1/4 c.)
1.75%, Salt, 0.27 oz. (7.60 g.), (a bit more than 1 1/3 t.)
1%, Oil, 0.15 oz. (4.35 g.), (a bit less than 1 t.)
0.25%, IDY, 0.038 oz. (1.09 g.), (a bit more than 1/3 t.)
Thickness factor (TF) = 0.10
Finished dough ball weight = 25.45 oz. (721.42 g.)

To prepare the dough in the breadmaking machine, I put all of the ingredients into the pan in the sequence recommended by the manufacturer, specifically, the water, flour, salt, oil and yeast. As I previously reported, my machine has a preheat cycle during which the ingredients are preheated in advance of the actual kneading cycle. I had identified the preheat cycle as a potential source of excess heat in the dough, so to keep the ingredients as cool as possible, I used ice cold water. About half of the ice cold water was put in at the beginning of the preheat cycle and the remainder was put in at the end, just as the knead cycle started. I had determined from my room temperature, flour temperature, and my machine’s friction factor (around 40 degrees F), that the water temperature required to achieve a finished dough temperature of around 80 degrees F would be around 43 degrees F. Since this was below the temperature of my refrigerated bottled water, I had to add ice cubes to lower the water temperature to around 43 degrees (I weighed the ice cubes along with the water).

During the actual knead cycle, I decided to keep the lid of the machine open to let some of the heat from kneading escape, as was recommended not too long ago by fellow member Artale. However, I discovered that my machine will not knead if I do this. (Leaving the lid up during the preheat cycle will also prevent the machine’s internal counter from decrementing the preheat cycle.) So, I watched the dough carefully so as to identify the point where I thought it was sufficiently kneaded. I estimate that the total knead time to reach that point was around 8-9 minutes total. When I removed the dough from the pan, it had a finished dough temperature of 80.4 degrees F. So, the approach I used with the ice water worked from a temperature standpoint. After about a minute of final hand kneading and shaping, I lightly coated the finished dough ball with oil and put it into a metal tin container (covered) into the refrigerator.

The dough remained in the refrigerator for 24 hours, following which I placed it (covered with plastic wrap) on my countertop for about 2 hours. It was then shaped and stretched to 18 inches and placed on my 18-inch screen, dressed (in a standard pepperoni style), and baked. The dough handled easily, although it was quite extensible, as is characteristic of Lehmann doughs made in my home setting. The dressed pizza was baked at around 500-550 degrees F on the highest oven rack position for about 7 minutes, following which I transferred the pizza off of the screen and onto a pizza stone (a rectangular stone with smaller overall dimensions than the screen) that had been placed on the lowest oven rack position and preheated for about an hour at the above temperature. The pizza required about 2-3 minutes on the pizza stone to be fully baked. What surprised me most as I removed the pizza from the oven is how big a fully baked 18-inch pizza really is. It's a monster. It's also a good choice to impress your guests who are lucky enough to sample the pizza.

The pizza was very good, with an open an airy crumb, a floppy tip to the slices, and a chewy and crunchy rim--all characteristic of a NY style. There was a very slight amount of breadiness, so I believe it may be possible next time to reduce the total knead time to something closer to 6-7 minutes to overcome even that slight amount of breadiness. This appears to be consistent with what fellow member Rkos (Richard) has concluded from his own experiences using his bread machine for making pizza dough. It is possible that for some machines the steps I took to achieve the results I was looking for may not even be necessary. So, depending on the particular model involved, some experimentation may be necessary to determine whether any modification of the processes of the machine are necessary.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on September 27, 2005, 03:00:50 PM
And...slices
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: OzPizza on September 27, 2005, 08:38:56 PM
Hi Oz, where can I get this caboolture mozz you talk about? Thanks!

James, got mine from Torino Food Suppliers in Marrickville. Being a Dairy Farmers commercial line product, which apparently is very widely used by pizzerias, it should be available at many food suppliers. You could even call Dairy Farmers and probably find out an even closer supplier to you.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: abc on September 29, 2005, 11:55:42 PM

The dressed pizza was baked at around 500-550 degrees F on the highest oven rack position for about 7 minutes, following which I transferred the pizza off of the screen and onto a pizza stone (a rectangular stone with smaller overall dimensions than the screen) that had been placed on the lowest oven rack position and preheated for about an hour at the above temperature. The pizza required about 2-3 minutes on the pizza stone to be fully baked. What surprised me most as I removed the pizza from the oven is how big a fully baked 18-inch pizza really is. It's a monster. It's also a good choice to impress your guests who are lucky enough to sample the pizza.


Pete, what was the reason for placing the pizza on the highest rack position.

Why was the stone at the lowest position, and not at the middle position?


last time when i made my 18", I could only put it at the lowest position w/ the stone, or possibly at the highest position but w/out the stone...

but no other combination because my convection oven's fan at the back wall will prevent me from putting a 18" screen.

I also found my pizza having bad top browning and for some reason uneven bottom browning when all the cooking was at the bottom of the oven on the stone.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on September 30, 2005, 01:52:15 AM
abc,

I have an electric oven with four possible oven rack positions and usually put the screen at the third oven rack position from the bottom and the stone at the bottom rack position. This time, I decided to try the top oven rack position for the screen before I shifted the pizza off of the screen onto the stone once the pizza crust had set up and the rim of the crust was starting to turn brown and the cheese was starting to bubble up and lightly brown--the two things I look for before shifting the pizza onto the stone. (My stone is rectangular and not big enough by itself to hold the entire pizza from the beginning.) I thought the top oven rack position worked reasonably well. I didn't show the bottom of the crust, but it was nicely browned--not burnt. Otherwise, I would move the stone up one position. I could use just the screen without the stone but I have found that I like the combination of the screen and stone for the NY style pizza in the larger sizes, and especially the contribution to bottom crust browning provided by the stone.

My recollection from one of your earlier posts is that you tried placing your stone on the floor of your oven. Is it a gas or electric oven, and is it possible for you to bake the 18-inch on a screen on the top oven rack position and then shift it onto the stone on the oven floor, much as I did with my stone? If that will result in the crust burning, maybe you can try baking at a lower temperature (e.g., 475 degrees F) for a longer period of time. It's also possible that your dough had too much sugar and the crust browned too quickly when you used only the stone on the floor of the oven. Often, the crust bottom will be overbaked while at the same time the top of the pizza will be underbaked. For that reason, Tom Lehmann often warns against using too much sugar in a dough to be baked on a hearth or deck surface. Using the malt may have had a similar effect. Maybe we can rule this out as a problem once you have had a chance to make the pizza again without the malt.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: buzz on September 30, 2005, 09:04:38 AM
Last night I made a thin crust using my bread machine. I have a Toastmaster unit I bought about 8 years ago--it has a dough cycle which kneads for about 30 minutes or so (Alton Brown would love it!). I always put in room temperature or cold water because it does it heat up the ingredients.

I used the usual recipe: 1.5 cups Ceresota AP; .50 cup water; 1 tsp yeast; .75 tsp Kosher salt; .75 tsp sugar; and just a splash of oil.

The dough came out beautifully from the machine (I don't let it rise in te machine)--it was a bit sticky, so I used a little bench flour. I let it rise twice at room temperature (usually I do three rises, but I was running out of time). I rolled it out very thin and put it in the Salton pizza maker. It was excellent--very flavorful, with a nice ouitside crunch and a bit of softness inside.

I remember when I first started making deep dish, I tried using the bread machine, and the result was...like bread! But it works very well for thin crust doughs.

Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on September 30, 2005, 11:42:08 AM
Buzz,

Some time I would like you to try using high-gluten flour in your recipe, whether it is the King Arthur Sir Lancelot, All Trumps, or some other brand. You might have to refrigerate the dough or use a much longer counter rise time to allow it to ferment sufficiently to tame the gluten so that it doesn't produce an overly elastic dough, but I am fairly confindent that you would see a flavor and texture improvement over the all-purpose flour. I think it would be fun also to see how your Salton pizza maker would handle the pizza.

As readers of this thread know, more than once I have tried to create an all-purpose version of Tom Lehmann's NY style. What I was hoping to achieve is an "entry level" recipe for beginning pizza makers who have little or no equipment, other than maybe a pan to bake the pizza on, and only all-purpose flour. The dough would be a same-day, room-temperature fermented dough, it would be kneaded and shaped entirely by hand, and the pizza would be baked on the pan at normal oven temperatures (i.e., no screen or pizza stone). The pizza would be about 12-inches in diameter, to minimize shaping and stretching problems. Invariably, I would come up with a pizza that looked fine--and sometimes even beautiful--and the pizza even tasted OK but it was nowhere close to one that used high-gluten flour. It was always too soft, and with little texture, and too little bottom crust browning, chewiness and crispiness.

Maybe if I had a machine like your Presto pizza maker it would have done a better job with the baking and crisping and browning up the crust but I was trying to avoid the use of any equipment other than the pizza pan and the standard home oven. I never did post photos of the "entry level" pizzas for fear that someone might take that to mean that I thought they were truly meritorious. I did finally manage to come up with an all-purpose version that I thought was much better than my prior efforts using all-purpose flour, and was comfortable showing (see Reply # 205 at page 11 of this thread), but it required using vital wheat gluten and dairy whey powder--not the sorts of things beginning pizza makers have in their pantry. Thus far, I have not been able to fool all-purpose flour into thinking and behaving like high-gluten flour :).

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: abc on September 30, 2005, 02:48:46 PM
abc,

I have an electric oven with four possible oven rack positions and usually put the screen at the third oven rack position from the bottom and the stone at the bottom rack position. This time, I decided to try the top oven rack position for the screen before I shifted the pizza off of the screen onto the stone once the pizza crust had set up and the rim of the crust was starting to turn brown and the cheese was starting to bubble up and lightly brown--the two things I look for before shifting the pizza onto the stone. (My stone is rectangular and not big enough by itself to hold the entire pizza from the beginning.) I thought the top oven rack position worked reasonably well. I didn't show the bottom of the crust, but it was nicely browned--not burnt. Otherwise, I would move the stone up one position. I could use just the screen without the stone but I have found that I like the combination of the screen and stone for the NY style pizza in the larger sizes, and especially the contribution to bottom crust browning provided by the stone.
Peter

i too employ the screen and stone combo... i also remove it from the screen and leave the near finished pie directly on the stone when the crust has set, to finish.  I don't use a peel because I don't want my oven floor to get so dirty all the time w/ cornmeal, flour, semolina, so I use a screen, but I cannot do w/o a stone.  I guess i was wondering if you put it all the way up there to utilize a difference in heat at the top level of the oven.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: abc on September 30, 2005, 03:05:10 PM
My recollection from one of your earlier posts is that you tried placing your stone on the floor of your oven. Is it a gas or electric oven, and is it possible for you to bake the 18-inch on a screen on the top oven rack position and then shift it onto the stone on the oven floor, much as I did with my stone? If that will result in the crust burning, maybe you can try baking at a lower temperature (e.g., 475 degrees F) for a longer period of time. It's also possible that your dough had too much sugar and the crust browned too quickly when you used only the stone on the floor of the oven. Often, the crust bottom will be overbaked while at the same time the top of the pizza will be underbaked. For that reason, Tom Lehmann often warns against using too much sugar in a dough to be baked on a hearth or deck surface. Using the malt may have had a similar effect. Maybe we can rule this out as a problem once you have had a chance to make the pizza again without the malt.

Peter

it was a new, 16" stone to replace a 12" or I had forever...  it was my first use.... i heated it at around 550 for 1/5hrs.  I put it on the oven floor because if I put it at the middle height position, then my 18" pizza+ screen were not going to fit in my oven... only at the bottom 2inches, and possibly the top 2inches can I get away with a screen... I may test that out as I love 18" pizzas...

that first 18" i made w/ the new stone on the oven floor was weird... i dont think it was a sugar issue... about half the pizza actually burned black, the other, was rather pale... and the whole rim was pale....  maybe all the sugar got concentrated? heh...  so I thought there was something i didnt like as far as the heat from the oven floor... it's a gas oven... flames on bottom, broiler at the top.

I've since made a 16" actually... didn't write about it... my tasters enjoyed it... had a crackle and inside was moist...  63% hydration, no malt, and the dough gave me the resistance i didn't have w/ the 18" but which i was looking for...  i was happy with that.  but i wasn't sure if it was due to no malt or a drier dough because

when making the dough, it was a lot drier for some reason than when i made the 18"... i had to add at least a tablespoon more of water for it to come together..and it was a humid day... i could tell the finished product was a bit drier than in the past nonlehman doughs, and while my 18" w/ 63% hydration was a lot wetter than my past, nonlehman doughs.... i was using gram measurements for my 16"... maybe something got mismeasured.  final dough weigh i think was 560g.  I think I'm going back to an 18" and motivated by your recent 18".... with both g & oz measurements I noticed...
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on September 30, 2005, 03:29:43 PM
abc,

I don't have an infrared thermometer to be able to tell if there is a material difference between baking on the top oven rack position as opposed to one of the lower positions. However, I would think that the top of the pizza gets more heat the higher up in the oven (due to the air heated by convection and the heat radiated from the top and side walls of the oven) and that as you move in the direction of the stone (at the lowest rack position) you get more heat from the stone (by radiation and convection), and from the screen as well (by conduction). Rather than trying to figure out my oven's thermodynamics, I just play around with positioning until I figure out what works best in my case. Even then, there can be differences based on the size of the pizza and the number and quantities and types of toppings. I will also often use my broiler element if it looks like the bottom of the crust is baking faster than the top and the top crust is not dark enough or the cheeses are not melting fast enough.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: abc on October 02, 2005, 04:41:21 PM

My best advice for the next Lehmann pizza is not to worry about the small weights of ingredients, stick with the 63% hydration level (at least for now), cut back on the mixing speed and duration of knead, try to keep the finished dough on the cool side as much as possible, and dispense with the autolyse and malt. You can always decide at a later date to reintroduce either the autolyse or the malt or to reduce the hydration ratio. If the extensibility is still too high after these changes, you might consider using the dough a bit sooner next time, say, 16-18 hours.

Peter


if i bump the salt pct from 1% to 2%, wouldn't this possibly aid to arriving at a dough that is less relaxed and gives some fight - less extensible?

I recently whipped up a batch of dough for a 18" pie... i put it in the fridge for use the next evening... I could tell in the 44degree fridge with the dough encased in a air blown sealed bag, the dough... which barely rose (I wasn't looking for it to rise, I put <1/3 tsp. of IDY) was too relaxed when I looked at it from the 12-18 hr interval because it wouldn't hold its ball shape too well, it oozed out a bit too easily...  when i prepared the dough I was hesitant to let it let it warm to room temp. for fear it would become even more extensible... it did.  I had stretched it to about 14" and let it rest, figuring I'd let it get puffy and airy.  when i transferred it to the 18" screen about 1hr later after i was able prepare my toppings, i could barely carry it off my prep tray and onto my 18" screen... and did the rest of my stretching by pulling it to 18" while it was on the screen.  Is the Lehman 18" supposed to be this relaxed?
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 02, 2005, 06:20:43 PM
abc,

The basic Lehmann recipe calls for 1.75% salt. If you were using 1%, then boosting it to 2% would have some effect on the fermentation. High salt levels will slow down the fermentation. I don't know whether that will be true with your salt level or how pronounced the effect will be.

My last 18-inch dough, the only one I have made, was extensible but not overly so. I think it will appear more extensible than say, a 12-inch dough, because the 18-inch dough is so much heavier and has to be stretched out much farther, it is more awkward and cumbersome to handle, and the gravity effects are greater. I sometimes fold a 16-inch shaped and stretched dough in half and unfold it on my screen. I did this also with the 18-inch. I also finished the stretching on the screen, just as you did. I will need more experience with the 18-inch to learn its particular idiosynchracies.

If you want to experiment a bit, next time you might drop the hydration down to 60% and see whether that improves the situation for you, and if you like the finished results. I have tended to stay around the 63% hydration because I want to have a more open and airy crumb structure. If you want to stick with the 63% hydration, you might look for a way of cooling the dough a bit more. On occasion, I have put the dough (in its container) into the freezer compartment for about 1/2 hour before transferring it to the refrigerator compartment. The time in the freezer may vary depending on the amount of dough but the dough for an 18-inch should be safe for at least a half hour and maybe 3/4 hour. It won't freeze in that time. You might also use a metal container and pre-freeze it also. I may use these techniques when I make my next 18-inch Lehmann dough.

Peter

Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 09, 2005, 12:53:04 PM
I recently decided to conduct another experiment to try to make a high quality frozen Lehmann dough. The one time before that I tried this, the results were nothing to write home about. I followed all the steps that Tom Lehmann (and others) recommended to make and freeze dough, including using ice cold water and increasing the amount of yeast to compensate for the yeast that would be destroyed by freezing, but the dough ultimately yielded only a mediocre crust in comparison with a freshly baked one.

Making frozen pizza dough in a home freezer (or standalone freezer) can be a bit tricky. In fact, in an online PMQ chat in which I participated in April, and in which I raised the question with Tom Lehmann of making frozen doughs in a home freezer, he tried to discourage me from doing so and, instead, suggested that I make a frozen dough skin, dress it and then freeze the entire pizza. This was somewhat the answer I was expecting since I have read a lot of Tom’s writings and know that he favors flash (or "blast") freezing of dough, at temperatures of around –20 degrees to –35 degrees F, rather than the static freezing provided by home freezers, which he contends causes more damage to the yeast in dough than flash freezing. Nonetheless, I wanted to give static freezing another chance. I was also aware that other members have made frozen doughs with pretty good results.

For my latest frozen dough experiment, I did the following. First, I made the basic Lehmann dough in the standard way but with an emphasis on trying to keep the finished dough temperature as low as possible. In my case, I tried using frozen flour, only to discover that it doesn’t work the same way as using ice cold water. Yet I managed to get the finished dough temperature to 78.5 degrees F—below the 80-degree F that I usually strive for when making normal Lehmann doughs, and not too far off from the 65-75 degrees F that Tom Lehmann recommends for a dough to be frozen.

Second, I put the finished dough as it came off of the hook directly into the freezer, flattening it first (within a plastic storage bag) to expedite the freezing of the dough. Freezing alone, especially in a static freezing environment subject to repeated defrost cycles, is not especially good for yeast in a dough, but it is even worse if the dough is permitted to rise first before freezing. In that case, the dough effectively becomes like a porous insulator with a lot of gas, and freezing causes yeast cell walls to rupture as the water in the dough expands upon freezing. If this happens, the leavening power of the yeast is diminished because of the loss of yeast and, in addition, the ruptured yeast cells release an amino acid, namely, glutathione (aka "dead" yeast).

The glutathione has the effect of softening, or slackening, the dough to the point where its extensibility may be increased beyond what might be desired. In my case, to forestall the loss of some yeast and the production of glutathione and its potentially harmful dough softening effects, I increased the amount of yeast by about triple the normal amount I use and I lowered the hydration level of the dough from my normal 63% to 60%. (The latter change was my own idea, but I subsequently read a piece by Tom Lehmann in which he made the same suggestion.)

Third, I added some honey to the dough. The idea for this came from fellow member Les who referred me to an article that suggested that using honey at above 4% (by weight of flour) was good for frozen bread doughs, due to improvements in the rheological (deformation and flow) properties of dough. Because I am not particularly partial to sweetness in pizza crusts, I chose to stay at the lowest recommended value, 4%. The dough formulation I ended up with, for a 16-inch pizza, was as follows (with baker’s percents and gram conversions):

100%, King Arthur Sir Lancelot high-gluten flour, 12.00 ounces (340.31 g.), (1 1/2 c. plus 3 T. plus 2 t.--all level measurements)
60%, Water, 7.20 oz. (204.18 g.) (7/8 c.)
1%, Oil, 0.12 oz. (3.40 g.), (a bit less than 3/4 t.)
1.75%, Table salt, 0.21 g. (5.96 g.), (a bit over 1 t.)
0.75%, IDY, 0.09 oz. (2.55 g.), (a bit less than 7/8 t.)
4%, Honey, 0.48 oz. (13.61 g.), (a bit less than 2 t.)
Finished dough weight = 20.45 oz.
Finished dough temperature = 78.5 degrees F
Thickness factor = 0.10

The dough based on the above formulation was made in a KichenAid stand mixer, following the procedures discussed many times before on this thread. As mentioned above, the dough went immediately into the freezer, before the yeast could kick in and cause the dough to rise (it usually takes about 20 minutes or so for the yeast to start to reproduce in a meaningful way). The dough stayed in the freezer for about 10 days. Tom Lehmann usually recommends 10 days as the outside limit, but as a “fudge” factor, he will tolerate 15 days, beyond which, according to Lehmann, the dough starts to go downhill quite fast.

The frozen dough was transferred from the freezer compartment to the refrigerator compartment to “slacken out” (defrost), for about 30 hours in my case (the minimum is about 12-16 hours). During the defrost time, the dough rose hardly at all. What is important to understand about frozen doughs is that freezing compromises the flavor and other qualities of the finished crust. That is because during freezing the dough does not ferment and perform its usual functions, including the production of flavorful by-products of fermentation. Also, there is no meaningful extraction of sugars from the starch to increase the residual sugars in the dough to facilitate browning of the finished crust, or the production of carbon dioxide, alcohol, acids, etc. These start once the dough has defrosted enough to permit these activities (which will take many hours), and continue during the counter warm-up in preparation for shaping and stretching the dough.

In my case, the dough remained on my countertop at room temperature for about 3 hours before I decided to make the pizza from the dough. During that 3-hour period, the dough rose very slowly, much slower than usual. Nonetheless, I had no problems shaping and stretching the dough out to 16 inches. It was less extensible (stretchy) than usual and had a nice feel about it. I suspect that the dough could have tolerated another day in the refrigerator before using, during which time the longer fermentation would have yielded more of the desirable by-products of fermentation.

The stretched-out dough was placed on a 16-inch screen, dressed, and baked. As a departure from the usual pepperoni pizzas I make for test purposes, this time the dressing included a Muir Glen organic tomato sauce (with Penzeys pizza seasoning, fresh garlic, red pepper flakes, olive oil and grated hard Parmesan and Romano cheeses), pre-cooked Italian sausage, sautéed green peppers and mushrooms, and Kroger’s Classic Natural mozzarella cheese. The pizza was baked on the screen for about 6 minutes on the next-to-the-top oven rack position of my oven, which had been preheated to about 500-550 degrees F for about an hour, and finished by transferring the partially-baked pizza onto a pizza stone at the lowest oven rack position for about an additional minute or two to brown up the bottom of the crust.

The finished pizza is shown in the photos below. The pizza turned out quite well, much better than I expected. The rim of the crust was light and airy, and was chewy yet tender (no doubt helped by the honey). There were a few bubbles in the finished crust, which I somewhat expected because of the relatively short total 'true" fermentation time, but they were not a problem. The top crust color was also a bit lighter than I normally prefer, but I found that the Kroger Classic mozzarella cheese, which I was using for the first time, was browning faster than the cheeses I usually use and necessitated that I remove the pizza from the oven sooner than usual. With the honey in the dough, and even with diminished production of residual sugar in the dough due to reduced enzyme performance, there would have been plenty enough sugar available to promote browning had I been able to leave the pizza in the oven for another minute or so. The crust was also a bit sweeter than I prefer, but it was not a big distraction. Next time I will just use less. But overall, I would characterize my frozen dough experiment as a success and can confidently recommend it for those who wish to make frozen Lehmann dough in advance.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 09, 2005, 12:57:04 PM
And...a typical slice.

Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Steve on October 12, 2005, 02:46:05 PM
Has anyone noticed that this particular thread has almost 18,000 views??  :o
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 12, 2005, 03:30:41 PM
Steve,

I, of course, have noticed and am surprised by it.

I view the popularity of the Lehmann thread as a testament to the popularity of the NY style pizza (there are people who have visited the thread and are making Lehmann NY style doughs all around the world) and the versatility of Tom Lehmann's basic recipe. I think also that the Lehmann Roadmap has helped people zero in on Lehmann recipes without having to read or scan the entire thread. I will also frequently provide links to the Lehmann thread to help answer questions that I previously addressed somewhere along the way in the thread. A high page view and curiosity ("who is this Lehmann?") will also attract visitors.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: scott r on October 12, 2005, 11:56:53 PM
Peter, I think a huge part of it is YOU and YOUR expertice.  You have added such a wealth of knowledge on this thread that I often come back to reread posts.   

I think they need to give you a food network show.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Steve on October 13, 2005, 07:19:40 AM
I think it's time that we put this "thread" into recipe form for the main menu's recipes section.  8)
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: vitoduke on October 16, 2005, 06:33:19 PM
Hi Peter, The recipe I was using in the wood burning oven for 18 inch pizza is
  KASL   16.10 oz
  H2o    10.15 oz.
  Salt    .28 oz.
  oo      .16 oz.
  IDY     .04 oz.
      1.   Add the salt to the water and disolve { Kitchen Aid Mixer}
      2.  Combine KASL and IDY and slowly add to water on low speed for 2 minutes
      3.  Add olive oil and mix for 5 minutes on second speed {scrape sides of bowl when needed}
      4.  Refridgerate 24 hours
      5.  Take dough out 2 hours prior to baking and let it rest on counter.

            Once the pie was in the oven it was rotated several times to get the crust evenly browned. Peter-thanks for all of your help on this site. It's hard to believe you that this is not your full time job. ---  Mel
.     
       
 
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 16, 2005, 07:58:42 PM
Mel,

Thanks for telling us which Lehmann recipe you used in your Forno Bravo oven. An 18-inch pizza is very impressive to begin with, so I can only imagine how it comes across to all your friends and family who are fortunate to share in such a rare treat.

I have restated below the recipe you used to show grams and volumes for those who may not use the U.S. standard or who may not have scales. I'd love to get feedback from others who use an oven like yours to make Lehmann-based pizzas.

18-inch Lehmann NY Style Dough Recipe
100%, KASL high-gluten flour, 16.10 oz. (456.32 g.), (3 1/2 c. + 2 T. + 2 t., all flush measurements)
63%, Water, 10.15 oz. (287.48 g.), (a bit less than 1 1/4 c.)
1.75%, Salt, 0.28 oz. (7.99 g.), (a bit less than 1 1/2 t.)
1%, Oil, 0.16 oz. (4.56 g.), (1 t.)
0.25%, IDY (instant dry yeast), 0.04 oz. (1.14 g.), (a bit over 1/3 t.)
Thickness Factor (TF) = 0.105
Total Dough Weight = 26.72 oz. (757.49 g.)

For those who may not have seen one of your recent pizzas, I refer them to the opening post at the New Oven and New York Pizza thread, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2003.new.html#new.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 23, 2005, 01:43:09 PM
As regular readers and followers of the Lehmann thread know, the basic Lehmann doughs use very little yeast, a common amount being 0.25% IDY (by weight of flour). Recently, I conducted an experiment in which I lowered that limit even further, to 0.17%. As part of that experiment, I also decided to lower the finished dough temperature from the 80 degrees F that I usually use to 75 degrees F. This was done in an effort to prolong the fermentation period beyond the usual 24-48 hours, to over 72 hours. I chose to retain a high hydration ratio, at 63%, with the objective of achieving an open and airy crust and crumb, and I chose not to add any sugar to increase either browning of the crust or to prolong the useful life of the Lehmann dough beyond the typical 48-hour period.

The idea to use a lower finished dough temperature came to me somewhat as an epiphany from a Tom Lehmann piece I recently read in which he indicated that originally the targeted finished dough temperature for a cold fermented (refrigerated) dough was 75 degrees F. And this worked well for many years until he started receiving complaints from pizza operators that their doughs weren’t rising as well as they had before. When he investigated the matter, he discovered that the newer models of coolers had become more efficient and were operating several degrees cooler than their predecessors. That prompted him to increase the targeted finished dough temperature by 5 degrees to 80 degrees F. I theorized that my refrigerator is perhaps more like the coolers of old and that maybe I should really be using the old finished dough temperature target of 75 degrees F. This would mean using even cooler water in making the Lehmann dough. So, that is what I did. I used bottled water right out of the refrigerator.

As it turned out, that still wasn’t cool enough, and my finished dough temperature was around 77 degrees F. So, to remedy that, at least for the current dough batch, I placed the finished dough (lightly oiled and in a metal container with a snap-on lid) in the freezer for about 15 minutes before moving the dough into the refrigerator compartment of my refrigerator. The brief time in the freezer compartment brought the finished dough temperature down to around 75 degrees F. Next time, I will more than likely use even cooler water. However, it is good to know that I can also use the freezer to lower my dough temperature.

The formulation I used for the latest experiment, for a 16-inch Lehmann dough (using a thickness factor of 0.10), was as follows--with baker’s percents and gram equivalents.

16-inch Low-Yeast, Low-Temperature, Lehmann NY Style Dough Recipe
100%, High-gluten flour (King Arthur Sir Lancelot), 12.12 oz. (343.55 g.), (2 3/4 c. + 2 t., level measurements)
63%, Water, 7.63 oz. (216.43 g.), (between 7/8 and 1 t.)
1%, Oil, 0.12 oz. (3.44 g.), (3/4 t.)
1.75%, Salt, 0.21 oz. (6.01 g.), (a bit over 1 t.)
0.17%, IDY (instant dry yeast), 0.02 oz. (0.58 g.), (1/5 t.)
Thickness factor (TF) = 0.10
Finished dough weight = 20.11 oz. (570.01 g.)
Finished dough temperature = 75 degrees F.

What is most significant about the above formulation is how little yeast is actually used—0.02 ounces, or about 1/5 teaspoon for a dough ball weighing over a pound (20.11 oz.). To put that into perspective, one-fifth of a teaspoon is equivalent to filling up a 1/4-teaspoon measuring spoon by about 80 percent. Looking at it another way, a single 1/4-ounce (7 g.) packet of IDY as sold in the supermarket can make 12 dough balls using the above formulation. As good and efficient and economical as this might be, I doubt that Fleischmann’s or SAF will be telling bakers anytime soon to dramatically cut back on the amount of yeast they are using.

The dough was made in the usual fashion, with my KitchenAid stand mixer. However, to be sure that the 1/5-teaspoon of yeast was properly combined with an enormously greater amount of flour (almost 3 cups), I was sure to stir the mixture thoroughly with a whisk to disperse the yeast uniformly throughout the flour. It would have been simpler and more convenient to stir the yeast in with the water, but I know that yeast doesn’t like to be shocked with cold water, so I nixed that idea.

After about 72 hours in the refrigerator, the dough had risen by about 50 percent. Prior to this, the dough had slumped (as the gluten structure relaxed) but was still very firm and had hardly risen at all. The dough started to rise noticeably between 48 and 72 hours. After I removed the dough from the refrigerator to make a skin out of it, I let it set for about 1-2 hours at room temperature on my kitchen counter (while covered with a sheet of plastic wrap). The dough was soft but I had no problem shaping and stretching it into a 16-inch skin. The dough was fairly extensible (stretchy), but I somewhat expected that because of its age and high hydration. I’m fairly confident that the dough would have been less extensible after 24 hours, or even 48 hours. As noted above, up to about 48 hours, the dough was still quite firm. I believe that the lowered finished dough temperature may have contributed to this firmness by slowing down the degree and rate of fermentation of the dough.

The dough skin was dressed in usual fashion, in this instance using pureed/drained Muir Glen canned tomatoes with Penzeys pizza seasoning, fresh basil, oregano, summer savory and parsley, red pepper flakes, olive oil and grated Parmesan and Parmigiano-Reggiano cheeses; shredded part-skim, low-moisture mozzarella cheese; and a mixture of sautéed and fresh sliced mushrooms; sliced, raw green peppers; roasted red peppers; and caramelized onions. The pizza was baked on a 16-inch pizza screen for about 6 minutes on the middle oven rack position and then for a final 2-3 minutes on a pizza stone that had been preheated (at the lowest oven rack position) for about an hour at 500-550 degrees F. The photos below show the finished product.

The pizza turned out well. What especially impressed me was that there was very good oven spring, as the slice photo below shows. This seems to me to put to rest the notion that in order to get good oven spring and an open and airy crust and crumb you need to use large amounts of yeast. Proper kneading of the dough (leaning more toward underkneading than overkneading) and high hydration seem to be more important in that respect. The crust color was also quite good, considering that no added sugar, honey, dried dairy whey, dry milk or anything else like that were used. Given enough time, the enzymes in the dough will do their job and extract the natural sugars from the flour needed to feed the yeast, provide sufficient residual sugar to promote crust coloration, and produce the byproducts of fermentation that contribute to crust flavor.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: canadianbacon on October 23, 2005, 04:46:13 PM
Hi Pete,

Can you see if you get edit your post 279 ? ... I believe that 3rd ingredient is supposed to be salt, but I thought I would ask
you to make sure, and perhaps you could just fix that for others looking.

I think I need to really start reading your posts, I seem to mostly really quickly read posts but don't take in the actual info, and
you have a lot of info there which I for the first time am starting to read. 

Are you in the pizza industry ? ... i.e. do you work at a pizzera ? own one, or are the principle pizza man ?

You really know your stuff.

Mark


Mel,

Thanks for telling us which Lehmann recipe you used in your Forno Bravo oven. An 18-inch pizza is very impressive to begin with, so I can only imagine how it comes across to all your friends and family who are fortunate to share in such a rare treat.

I have restated below the recipe you used to show grams and volumes for those who may not use the U.S. standard or who may not have scales. I'd love to get feedback from others who use an oven like yours to make Lehmann-based pizzas.

18-inch Lehmann NY Style Dough Recipe
100%, KASL high-gluten flour, 16.10 oz. (456.32 g.), (3 1/2 c. + 2 T. + 2 t., all flush measurements)
63%, Water, 10.15 oz. (287.48 g.), (a bit less than 1 1/4 c.)
1.75%, 0.28 oz. (7.99 g.), (a bit less than 1 1/2 t.)
1%, Oil, 0.16 oz. (4.56 g.), (1 t.)
0.25%, IDY (instant dry yeast), 0.04 oz. (1.14 g.), (a bit over 1/3 t.)
Thickness Factor (TF) = 0.105
Total Dough Weight = 26.72 oz. (757.49 g.)

For those who may not have seen one of your recent pizzas, I refer them to the opening post at the New Oven and New York Pizza thread, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2003.new.html#new.

Peter

Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 23, 2005, 05:10:15 PM
Mark,

Thanks for catching my omission in Reply # 279. I have edited the reply to reference the salt.

Thanks also for the compliment. No, I have no connection with the pizza industry in any way. I am just a student of pizza and a home hobbyist. I experiment to teach myself things and to confirm my understanding of how things work. And when I don't understand something or I get stumped, I research the matter.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: canadianbacon on October 23, 2005, 11:16:33 PM
I agree.  I've been reading nothing but Peter's posts tonight.  Watching TV and checking out all the great info
Peter has written.  I'm really for the first time reading about Peter's "Tom Lehmann's recipe.

I think tomorrow I'm going to head over to the grovery store and look for some bread flour.  Bread flour
is what I need right ? ( it's high gluten ).... right now I'm using all purpose.

I am in Canada, and you just can't order flour like you do in the might U.S.A, we just don't have places like you do.

Anyway I'm getting excited about trying out this recipe.

I have to be very honest, and say that eventhough I've been making pizza for about 15 years or so ( off and on ),
I am a creature of habit, and never weight or measure out my ingredients for the dough.

I usually heat up a cup of water, throw that into my Kitchen Aid bowl, check the temp with my finger, when it feels
right I throw in some dry yeast out of my can, and then add a bit of sugar..... wait about 15 mins until it froths up,
then throw in a pinch of salt.... then start the KA going and then add in some oil ( about 3 tablespoons ) and then I just start dumping in flour until it "looks right " ..... I think I must change my ways and start measuring out my stuff.

I have a wierd thing that happens many times.... I will get a dough to look right, but then I'll be about to lift it out of the bowl (KA bowl ) and then it becomes very sticky after I turn the dough hook off, so I will add in a good 1/4 cup more flour and get the thing going again.... this then gets pulled in and eaten up by the wet dough, and the cycle continues.... I'll then do it once again, and perhaps a 3rd time.  Then I get a bit disappointed and just throw in some more yeast and only let the dough hook turn a few times so it doesn't eat up that new flour, but so it kind of just coats the dough so it comes away from the bowl.... and then I can get it out without it all being a big sticky mess.

I don't know Peter, - when you are mixing your dough, and it's mixing for say 10 minutes, are you saying all of that time -- *after * you have mixed in your exact amount of dough, - the dough does not or IS not sticky enough where it more sticky than not sticky ? ..... I guess what I mean is, does it really not stick all over to the bowl ? .... when you do your dough, is it a perfect dough ball just clinging to your dough hook, and you can pull it out perfectly kind of in one shot ?

I think I read that you said that if you keep kneading long enough in the KA, that the dough will kind of get less sticky, and become one nice big mass of dough..... perhaps I'm misunderstanding that.

Anyway I am hoping to get this process down pat in my head, but need I guess to first start measuring out exactly the amounts
I need to use.

Anyway you are a real inspiration to this forum Peter, that's all I can say.

Mark

Peter, I think a huge part of it is YOU and YOUR expertice.  You have added such a wealth of knowledge on this thread that I often come back to reread posts.   

I think they need to give you a food network show.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: canadianbacon on October 23, 2005, 11:22:41 PM
Hi again Peter, I forgot to mention one thing, - I always make my pizza right after making the dough.  So let's say I start making my dough at 5pm, well by 5:40 pm or so I can already be rolling out the dough and getting it ready for the oven.

I know I was reading something that you wrote, about the chemistry of the dough sort of  changing or "working" overnight in the fridge.....

what actually happens when the dough is in the fridge for a good 24 hours ? ....  does it actually change the *taste* of the dough ? or does it only change the bubbles in the dough ? perhaps the texture ?

anyway thanks in advance Peter.

Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 24, 2005, 12:40:43 PM
Mark,

The way you have been making your pizza dough will produce a pizza, but it will not be a high quality product. Just throwing things together in a bowl will also often lead to the types of problems you have experienced with stickiness of the dough and tinkering too much with the flour and water trying to get the right texture and consistency. I am a big advocate of weighing the flour and water. They represent the bulk of the dough and it is important in my view to get the right hydration, that is, the ratio of water to flour, by weight of flour. If you have a scale good enough to accurately weigh the other ingredients, that is also a good thing but it is less critical since their amounts are usually small and hard to accurately measure out. It is for this reason that I try to include in most of my recipes, including the Lehmann recipes, the volume equivalents to the weight measurements. Even if you are off a bit on the volume measurements, it won't usually have a material effect on the finished dough.

My practice in making doughs is to hold back on some of the water I have weighed out to use to make the doughs. If, after all the ingredients have been mixed and kneaded in the bowl, I see that the dough looks and feels dry or stiff, I trickle in a bit more water and knead that in. I keep doing this until the dough is smooth and feels a bit tacky and it has absorbed most (or all) of the water. The hydration of the flour is not instantaneous, and a dough that looks like it has absorbed a lot of the water can often take more, especially if you do a bit of hand kneading to speed up the absorption of the water by the flour. But I don't try to force the dough to take more water just because I weighed it out in accordance with the recipe. Flours vary from one lot to another and from one bag to another, and will change with time and storage conditions. When the dough is properly made, it should definitely clear the sides of the bowl and it should come off the hook in pretty much one piece. Stand mixers are not especially efficient machines so I will usually do a bit of hand kneading before putting the dough into its container.

Where you will experience poor results with a dough made in about an hour is that it will be underfermented. Depending on the amount of yeast you use and the temperatures involved, the yeast will typically take 15-30 minutes just to get acclimated to its surroundings before it can efficiently and adequately perform the many tasks it is called upon to do. Also, the enzymes in the flour (alpha and beta amylase) that extract sugar from the flour to feed the yeast will not have had much time to do this. So, while there will be carbon dioxide and ethyl alcohol produced through the fermentation of the available fermentible sugar, they will not be in abundance and you will not get much dough volume expansion or adequate residual sugar to promote good crust browning.

Also, there are enzymes in the flour, most notably, protease, that work to soften the gluten in the dough and cause it to relax to shed its elasticity characteristics. If these enzymes are not given enough time to work on the gluten, you will usually get an overly elastic dough that resists shaping and stretching. This is especially so if the flour used is a high-protein, high-gluten flour, which yields a more developed, stronger gluten network. If you bake the pizza at this stage, what you will usually get is a bland, insipid-tasting crust with a cardboard like texture and quite possibly a light color. You might also get a lot of bubbling because of the underfermentation. It may be possible to compensate to a certain extent for the sub-par crust by your sauce, cheeses and other toppings, but if the crust isn't of high quality to begin with it will be hard to get a pizza of the highest quality.

The reason that you won't get good crust flavor using your approach is that there are a host of other functions, numbering in the hundreds, that take place within the dough over time, whether the dough is kept at room temperature or in the refrigerator. There are bacteria, most notably, lactobacillus, that help convert part of the alcohol to organic acids, such as lactic and acetic acids, that are byproducts of bacterial action that contribute to flavor in the finished crust. A part of the alcohol will also remain in the dough and burn off during baking, leaving behind a residue that also contributes to flavor. There are also many other compounds (esters, aldehydes, etc.) that are produced that contribute to flavor and odor. To get all of these benefits, you need adequate time. They won't be produced in adequate abundance within an hour. I don't want to leave you with the impression that the flavor improvement from long fermentation times will knock your socks off. To get such a dramatic improvement in crust flavor, you would have to use a natural preferment or starter. You can also get better flavor if the dough can make it out to 48 hours or more without overfermenting.

Your decision to go to bread flour should help. Bread flour has more protein than all-purpose flour and yields more gluten than all-purpose flour. You will also get a bit more flavor and a bit more color just because of the higher-protein content, and you will also be able to use a higher hydration because a high protein flour can absorb more water than a lower protein flour. This might help with the stickiness problem you have experienced, especially if you manage the use of water better, as discussed above. The bread flour will also yield a better crust, from the standpoint of chewiness and crispiness. If you wish, you can even increase the protein content of the bread flour further by using vital wheat gluten. I have done this on many occasions when I wanted to use a Lehmann recipe to make a NY style pizza but had no high-gluten flour available to me. I discussed some of my experiments along these lines in earlier posts on this thread. The vital wheat gluten will increase the chewiness of the crust but not the crispiness. My recollection from some of Canadave's posts in the past is that vital wheat gluten is available in Canada.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: BIG Daddy on October 24, 2005, 02:39:01 PM
Peter;
Just a note to let you know that Tom Lehmann now teaches both the  WINDOW PANE method and the TWO THUMB DOUGH BALL method to check on the readiness of the pizza dough.  At least this is what was taught at the pizza seminar I just attended.
BIG Daddy ;D
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 24, 2005, 02:56:51 PM
BIG Daddy,

Thank you. That's funny, because early on in this thread I quoted Tom as telling me to forget about the windowpane test. It's possible that he was thinking of a home environment rather than a professional pizza operation. However, I noted recently that the windowpane test was creeping back into his writings, along with the two thumb approach. When Tom originally told me to forget about the windowpane test, I did even though I was somewhat skeptical about doing so, especially since other dough experts like Peter Reinhart, Jeffrey Steingarten, Alton Brown, and others whose names escape me at the moment, were advocating use of that test. I found myself softpedalling the test when asked for advice on the point. My advice to others has been to try the test to get a feel for it but to rely more on the overall feel of the dough. I found that once I achieved that feel, the dough invariably passed the windowpane test anyway.

I like it when people change their minds and don't lock themselves into hardened positions from which they refuse to retreat. I find myself rethinking things all the time as new information comes to my attention, and at times it can be a bit humbling to discover that I don't know as much as I thought I did.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: pizzanapoletana on October 24, 2005, 03:10:02 PM
Mark,

The way you have been making your pizza dough will produce a pizza, but it will not be a high quality product. Just throwing things together in a bowl will also often lead to the types of problems you have experienced with stickiness of the dough and tinkering too much with the flour and water trying to get the right texture and consistency.

Peter

I strongly disagree with the above statement. I never ever measured the flour before start writing about pizza. Even now, on my consultancy job, I measured a quantity, then from it I take as much as I feel like the dough needs, and then I measure the remaining to know how much I have use it. If you guys are using a 25kg Caputo bags over a month or more, I would bet with you all if you get the same dough adding 1.8kg flour per liter as soon as you open the bag, and 1.8 at the end of the same bag after a month or more. Also, each day the dough is affected by too many factors..
I keep saying that in Baking there cannot be recipes but methods and technique, that needs experience to be implemented properly.

Ciao
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 24, 2005, 03:50:44 PM
Marco,

I appreciate and respect your comments and have noted your approach on this matter from my visits to the Italian pizza forum. However, my advice is intended for those home pizza makers who either have little experience with making pizza doughs or who have been having problems making their doughs. It is also to get a better handle on the hydration percent, while acknowledging the need to occasionally make midcourse corrections as the dough making process proceeds. You are an expert who has learned from long experience how to make a quality dough without having to weigh things. I saw the same thing with Dom DeMarco at DiFara's. He has been making dough for so long that he doesn't have to weigh anything. He uses volume measurements, and rough ones at that. I have seen the same thing from other pizza operators who, like Dom DeMarco, have making doughs for years. My emphasis has been on helping the home pizza maker who has not yet reached expert status. The use of "recipes" or formulas on this thread is simply a mechanism to allow users to have flexibility and variety in the Lehmann doughs they make, mainly in being able to make any size Lehmann pizza they want while retaining the classic NY crust characteristics. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to find that many of our members have made enough Lehmann doughs that they no longer have to weigh or measure out things and can do it by "feel", just as you do with your Neapolitan style doughs.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on November 06, 2005, 10:01:31 PM
Anyone for mini Lehmann’s?

One of the ideas that I have been kicking around in my mind for some time has been the thought of making some mini Lehmann pizzas—the kind that someone might serve to guests as hors d’oeuvres or finger food at a party or other gathering. Since I had a Lehmann dough ball in my freezer as part of one of my earlier experiments with frozen dough, I decided that I would use that dough ball for my experiment with mini Lehmann pizzas, even though the dough had been in my freezer for about 18 days. The dough ball was of a size to make a standard 16-inch pizza or two 12-inch pizzas. The dough recipe I used was the standard one for a 16-inch Lehmann pizza, with a total dough weight of about 20 ounces.

In preparation for making the mini pizzas, I let the frozen dough “slack out” (thaw) in the refrigerator section of my refrigerator for almost two days. I then brought it to room temperature, divided it into two smaller balls, covered them with a sheet of plastic wrap, and let them rise for about 2 hours. As the dough was rising, I gathered all the ingredients I wanted to try on the mini pizzas. They included green peppers, onion, sauteed mushrooms, and pepperoni. I cut the green peppers and onion into small dice on the theory that they would be easier to distribute on the mini pizzas. For the sauce, I made a simple 6-in-1 sauce with Penzeys seasonings and some red pepper flakes, and I also cut up some leftover San Marzano DOP tomatoes. For cheeses, I shredded some processed low-moisture part skim mozzarella cheese and I also cut slices of that cheese to see which form would work better on the mini pizzas. I decided also to make a few mini Margherita pizzas using some fresh mozzarella cheese, which I cut into slices and roughly halved to be able to fit on the mini dough rounds. I tried not to go overboard on the toppings because I didn't want the cheeses to melt and run off the mini pizzas and make a mess.

When the two dough balls had risen sufficiently, I rolled each dough ball out with a rolling pin to around 12 inches. I then took a 3-inch cookie cutter (as shown in one of the photos below) and cut 3-inch rounds out of the rolled out dough. They shrunk a little and went off round a bit, but they seemed otherwise to be in fine shape. After I had cut out all the mini dough rounds, I lined them up in close succession in a row and column format on a lightly floured work surface and then started dressing them. I started with the sauce/San Marzanos and then added the various other toppings in several different combinations. Surprisingly, I didn’t find myself hurried. The mini dough rounds just sat there patiently waiting to be acted upon. And they didn’t stick to anything. So, even though it took some time to dress them, I felt very relaxed and not rushed.

When I was done dressing the mini dough rounds, I gently picked them up and placed them on a 16-inch pizza screen and also on a 12-inch pizza screen (there were too many to fit on one screen). There were 29 dressed mini rounds on the two pizza screens. There was also some scrap pieces of dough that I gathered together into a ball, flattened, and set aside so that the gluten would relax and allow me to get a few more rounds or maybe a small pizza out of the scrap dough.

The first two photos below show the dressed mini rounds on the screens. To bake the mini pizzas, I started with the 16-inch screen, by depositing it on the upper rack position of my oven, which I had preheated for about 1 hour at around 500-550 degrees F, along with a pizza stone that I had placed on the lowest oven rack position. The mini pizzas baked for about 4 minutes, at which time the crusts were starting to turn brown, and I shifted the mini pizzas onto the preheated pizza stone for about an additional minute or so. To get the mini pizzas from the screen to the stone, I used a pan gripper (shown in a photo below) as is customarily used to grip a deep-dish pan. I grabbed the edge of the pizza screen with the pan gripper and shook the screen. The mini pizzas slid right onto the stone. Once the mini pizzas were done, I removed them from the oven and put them on a wire rack. This was the toughest part of the whole job since there is no convenient or quick way to remove all those little pizzas from the stone. I used a metal spatula. It later occurred to me that it might be possible to bake the mini pizzas on the stone while they remain on the pizza screen. When I removed the first batch of mini pizzas from the oven, I baked the second batch on the 12-inch screen. I even used the leftover scrap dough to make a small pizza to use up most of the remaining toppings. That pizza is shown in the last photo below.

The mini pizzas were absolutely delicious. I had to restrain myself from trying to eat them all. I don’t think that they would last long around a bunch of kids. They are two or three bite pizzas (about 2 1/2 inches across), just enough for a finger food. The crust was as good as any I have made with the Lehmann dough—crunchy, chewy and with very nice flavor. And they didn’t immediately dry up and turn tough. They were still good even after 15 minutes. That means not having to rush to get them to guests as soon as they come out of the oven, although obviously that is when they will be at their very best. I also did not end up preferring one method of dressing the mini rounds over any other. Everything I tried (shreds, slices, etc.) worked out fine.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on November 06, 2005, 10:06:26 PM
The baked minis plus tools and a small pizza made from the scrap dough.

Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: canadianbacon on November 06, 2005, 10:20:52 PM
Great post Peter, and very interesting also ( insert scary music here ) ... and here's why...

my son went to a friend's house today ( he's 7 ) and when he got home he told my wife he had mini-pizzas at his friend's house, and wanted my wife to buy some.  Anyway we were both sitting here and I said to her , hey why don't I make some dough next week and then I'll roll it out, and use a cookie cutter to cut some dough into circles and make mini pizzas !, I thought about it 2 seconds and then said that I would use some one of the large glass kitchen glasses we have that we bought from IKEA.  They are large enough to make a nice sized mini pizza.  Anyway so I said all of that and forgot about it, and all of a sudden your post comes in haha, amazing.

Anyway i'm on my laptop just here in the living room watching Grey's Anatomy with my wife, so tilted the computer around so she could see the pizzas, anyway I said to her isn't that kind of neat that somebody on my pizza forum did that and I was also thinking of that, she wasn't too excited about that part, but I thought it was neat... strange how sometimes 2 people can be thinking of the same thing.

Yup, great little bite size treats !

anyway thanks for the posting , the images are great Peter !

oh and just a little additon, my wife wants to know if you deliver hehehehe, she wants a snack !  ;D

Mark
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Wallman on November 20, 2005, 11:39:58 AM
I've been trying to follow the Lehmann dough recipe. I've had pretty good success IMHO. Since I can't find KASL, I've been using KA bread flour and VWG, using the 16 inch recipe.  I tried to follow it closely, although my measurements were probably not precise since I don't have a very good scale (and my 4 year old was helping so at least a few tablespoons of flour went on the floor, work surface, ceiling, walls, etc.).

I used a stand mixer and kneeded for about 8-10 minutes. The dough temp. was only about 75 F after mixing -- I think the water that went in was roughtly 80-85 F.  The dough set for about 20 hours in the fridge and maybe 2 hours at room temp. before shaping and dressing. 

The dough was very pliable and shaped and tossed easily in about a 15 inch pie (16 won't quite fit on my tiles.  It tasted great, in fact we polished it off in about 10 minutes.  My only question, is does the lower dough temp. and abrievated cold rise make a big difference?  This seemed to work out pretty well, it tasted good to me!
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on November 20, 2005, 02:00:57 PM
wallman,

Welcome to the forum. I'm glad that you liked the results from using the KABF (King Arthur bread flour) and the vital wheat gluten (VWG).

Dough temperature can be a factor in the amount and rate of fermentation. Generally speaking, all other things being equal, the higher the dough temperature, the greater the fermentation, and vice versa. This is usually not a problem for the Lehmann dough if you plan to use the dough within say, 24 hours or so, as you did. But when you get to around 48 hours or so, the Lehmann dough can become rather extensible (stretchy) and, especially so, if the dough had a high finished dough temperature when it went into the refrigerator. The high hydration level of a typical Lehmann dough, around 63% in many of the recipes I have posted, will also cause the dough to ferment faster. So, it is useful to keep in mind the factors that influence the amount and rate of fermentation.

When I plan to use a Lehmann dough beyond 24-48 hours, I watch water temperature very carefully to be sure that I get a finished dough temperature of around 80 degrees F, even to the point of using ice cold water. As an alternative to using colder water, I will sometimes freeze the finished dough (in a container) for about 15-30 minutes (for an amount of dough for a 16-inch pizza) and then place it in the refrigerator compartment of my refrigerator. I also frequently use a metal container to hold the dough, because metal allows the dough to cool down a bit faster. Another tip to slow down the fermentation is to use less yeast. You have to be a bit careful here, however, because if you use too little yeast along with cold water (which yeast doesn't really like) or other temperature-lowering measures, you may find that your dough doesn't ferment properly and it will be sluggish when time comes to use it.

As far as counter rise time is concerned, the general rule is that the dough is ready to use when its internal temperature gets to around 50-55 degrees F. Depending on room temperature, this can take less than an hour to over two hours. Beyond that time, the dough will usually be good for another few hours, depending again on the room temperature. The reason for allowing a reasonable counter time is to minimize the possibility of bubbling or blistering occurring when the pizza is loaded into the oven and baked. Some people like bubbles and will bake their pizzas sooner to get the bubbles.

Looking at your pizza, and especially the crumb, you may want to try reducing the knead time by a few minutes, for example, to about 5-6 minutes at speed 1 or 2 on a KitchenAid mixer, once all of the dough ingredients have come together into a rough mass. The photo of the finished pizza you posted also shows a fairly light crust. Unless this was just a photo issue, you might consider baking the pizza under the broiler for a minute or two after it has been on the tiles, to produce a bit more top crust browning.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Wallman on November 20, 2005, 03:29:44 PM
Pete,
Thanks for the tips.  I really enjoy your suggestions and recipes. The crust on the pizza was pretty light, I last pizza I did (last week) was a little over cooked, so I pulled this one quickly. I'll try the shorter mix time and the broiler idea. I have also found brushing a little olive oil around the rim of the crust makes it brown up quickly. I did a longer mix in order to try and get the dough temp. up to 80, but after 10 minutes it was only at 75.  I don't think I need to worry too much about dough temp. for holding the dough. I can barely wait 24 hours to make and eat the pizza let alone 48 or longer.  Our family ritual is Thursday dough making, Friday pizza baking, my four year old is an enthusiastic kneeder! :)
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on November 20, 2005, 06:16:51 PM
wallman,

Tom Lehmann says you shouldn't knead to temperature, i.e., a desired finished dough temperature. You knead only to the point where the dough achieves the desired finished condition.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on November 21, 2005, 12:01:48 PM
Recently, I experimented with a new way to bake a Lehmann pizza. Instead of using a pizza stone or tiles or any other such arrangement, I used a bed of rocks. A preheated bed of rocks to be more exact. The idea came to me recently when I was at a local Middle Eastern grocery/bakery looking to buy some freshly made pita breads. When I asked the owner if he could show me how they made the pita breads, he obligingly took me over to a Bakers Pride oven. In the oven was a large rectangular tray filled with rocks arranged in what appeared to be a single layer. I was told that the oven is heated to 650 degrees F and the preshaped pita doughs are baked on top of the preheated bed of rocks. I believe that the arrangement I saw is intended to simulate a version of a Middle Eastern oven called a taboon (which also appears in the name of the bakery). A light bulb went off in my head and I wondered whether this technique would work to bake a pizza.

So I went back home, and rounded up a bunch of rocks from my backyard, and washed and dried them. I tried to get rocks of roughly equal size, just as I saw in the bakery. Some were round and some were angular. Since I didn’t have a large rectangular metal tray, I chose to use a flat 14-inch round metal pizza pan. For this pizza, I decided to use an amount of dough sufficient to make a 9-inch pizza since I figured that I would be able to deposit it safely on top of the 14-inch pan. To make the dough, I used a food processor. I did this because it does a better job of kneading a small amount of dough (6.70 ounces) than does a KitchenAid mixer.

The dough was cold fermented for around 24 hours and brought to room temperature to warm up for about two hours prior to shaping and dressing. The dough handled easily and was shaped and stretched to 9 inches. I’m not sure whether I posted a Lehmann dough recipe for a 9-inch before, but this is the formulation I used:

Lehmann NY Style Dough Recipe for 9-inch Pizza
100%, King Arthur Sir Lancelot high-gluten flour, 4.03 oz. (114.25 g.), (3/4 c. + 3 T. + 2 t.)
63%, Water (room temperature), 2.54 oz. (72.01 g.), (a bit over 1/3 c.)
1.75%, Salt, 0.07 oz. (1.99 g.), (3/8 t.)
1%, Oil, 0.04 oz. (1.13 g.), (1/4 t.)
0.25%, Instant dry yeast (IDY), 0.01 oz. (0.28 g.), (about 80% of a 1/8-t. measuring spoon)
Total dough weight = 6.70 oz.
Thickness factor = 0.105
Finished dough temperature = 81 degrees F

For the pizza, I used a 6-in-1 tomato sauce with Penzeys pizza seasoning, some partially-cooked Italian sausage (removed from its casing), roasted red peppers, some caramelized Vidalia onions, pepperoni, and a mixture of fresh mozzarella cheese pieces and shredded processed mozzarella cheese. I would say that the pizza was fairly aggressively dressed. It was baked on the bed of rocks, which I had preheated for about an hour on the lowest oven rack position at around 500-550 degrees F. It took about 6 to 7 minutes for the pizza to bake, more or less in line with the time it usually takes to bake a Lehmann dough on a pizza stone.

The preheated bed of rocks approach worked very well. The pizza was surprisingly very tasty. The slices did look a bit odd, with wavelike dimples in the bottom as a result of the dough settling into the interstices of the bed of rocks during baking.  But the crust was chewy, and crunchy and crispy at the rim, with good crust flavor. In retrospect, it occurs to me that if I had used a much bigger pan I could have used more rocks and made a much bigger pizza. I still haven’t figured out all of the implications and potential applications for the bed of rocks arrangement that I used, apart from the fact that it works and is far cheaper than a pizza stone (but maybe equivalent to tiles when the pan cost is factored in). I will have to attempt a larger pizza sometime to see how it compares to one baked on a pizza stone.

In the series of photos below I have shown the rock arrangement I used, and examples of the finished pizza and slices.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on November 21, 2005, 12:07:30 PM
And slices...

Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: mmarston on November 21, 2005, 12:22:31 PM
I've got it! A combination Sauna and Pizza Oven
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: dodude on November 21, 2005, 05:08:20 PM
Long time reader, first-time poster. Go easy.

First off, I gotta take my hat off to Pete, who has really done a tremendous amount of work in experimentation, research, and documentation in the year-plus that this thread has been going. I have learned so much information about pizza dough which had previously eluded me, and I never would have arrived at what I consider to be the best pizza in my city if it wasn't for his work, so thanks a ton.

I'm 37, married with two kitchen-loving kids (5 and 2) in Madison WI. I started baking in 1988, and was the head night baker for The Bunnery in Jackson Hole, WY in 1990 (no I'm not the person responsible for the awesome OSM bread recipe, but I still have all the recipes at home :P ) after which I came back to Madison and ran the prep kitchen for Botticelli's, learning about soups, sauces and honing my knife skills. I gradually moved over to a night bakery position there because of my love for the craft. I had also held college jobs at various pizzerias (Little Caesars, Pizza Hut) and learned a bit about throwing rounds. I am also a computer programmer, and in the mid-90s began working as a website designer and applications programmer, which removed me from the food service industry entirely (for better and worse).

The biggest problem for me as a home baker is the difference in restaurant standard ingredients vs. consumer grade. I guess I just never realized how precious those 50 pound bags of 14.5% high-gluten flour really were.

I simply love to work with dough (it's a sickness according to my wife.....that and fishing). Dough is not a silent mushy ball. Dough tells you what it needs if you know how to read it, and a lot of that comes with experience. Recently, I embarked on a mission to create my own sourdough starter and master the basic water-starter-flour-salt baguette and it brought back memories of throwing dough at Little Caesar's. I have not had much luck with any pizza dough recipe I'd found at the typical recipe sites like epicurious and cooking.com. Something just wasn't working at all. The various doughs always seemed to taste like bread, regardless of what I did to them.....and I tried a lot of different recipes. Then I magically found this thread in Google when searching for New York Style Pizza. Duh. Gluten. Duh. I thought I was getting somewhere when I started using bread flour and it turned out a bit better, even though I was trying to get away from the "bready" flavor. I figured it was just that I had too much breadmaking under my belt to be able to pass off an authentic NY style pizza crust.

Alright, I've been doing the Lehmann recipe for a few weeks, using Pillsbury bread flour (I can't find KASL anywhere locally) and then finally came into the posts about supplementing the flour with gluten. I went out, bought a bag of King Arthur Bread Flour and some Arrowhead VWG at the local Whole Foods. The first thing I noticed when I yanked open the KA flour bag was HOLY CRAP this flour is sooooooo much finer, softer, and fluffier than the Pillsbury bread flour. It looked like tiny tiny snowflakes, and the bag was slightly bigger than the pillsbury for the same poundage. Now, the KA is twice the price of the Pillsbury, but it's gotta be 100 times better.....and hell, it's FLOUR we're talking about, not gasoline. You EAT it. I tried my version of Pete's Lehmann recipe, which is:

I weighed out the flour (as I sifted it), measured out the dry ingredients and blended with the flour.

I weighed the water and put it in my KitchenAid Pro 6 with the dough hook on speed 1. Then I started my timer and added all the dry ingredients over the course of about 20 seconds. I left the speed on 1 and waited for the three minute mark. Then I added the almost 1 teaspoon of Olive Oil, and let the mixer go another two minutes. Occasionally I dropped the bowl down to reposition the dough on the fly. At 5 minutes, the dough was grabbing nicely, so I pulled it out and hand-kneaded for about another minute. So a total of 5 minutes in the mixer (never go above speed 1, it's really unnecessary for this task) and 1 extra minute by hand. One thing I've been learning with sourdough is that overkneading/overhandling wrecks the crumb, and I suspect that most people with mixers have a tendency to overknead because their triceps aren't invested in the task.

I balled 'em up and threw them in a large, olive-oiled tupperware container (with a little concavity to the lid for air expansion, so it wouldn't pop off in the fridge) 24 hours later, I threw a round into an old 15" Pizza Hut deep dish pan (I got a dented one from the store I worked long ago for free, and worked out the dent). I don't let it touch the sides of the pan, or it tends to brown the edge of the crust too much for my taste. Added some decent pizza sauce (where can I get 6-1s?) and shredded some decent local mozz over the top. a couple finger-ground sprinkles of pizza spices on top and then into the 475 degree oven for around 10-11 minutes.

I like simplicity. I like the basic cheese pie. This was BY FAR the best results I've ever had. I owe most of it to you guys. Thanks. It was very nearly a perfect replica of the NY street pies I remember from long ago. I'll let the photos speak for themselves.

(http://www.planetmadison.com/media/lehmann_grp001_003.jpg)

(http://www.planetmadison.com/media/lehmann_grp001_004.jpg)

(http://www.planetmadison.com/media/lehmann_grp001_009.jpg)

(http://www.planetmadison.com/media/lehmann_grp001_016.jpg)

(http://www.planetmadison.com/media/lehmann_grp001_024.jpg)

Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: chiguy on November 21, 2005, 05:45:54 PM
 Hi, dodude
 Welcome to the forum and thanks for sharing you're experience. I really like the way you
 express you're feelings about working with dough. I noticed you said you have been reading for quite some time even though this is you're first post. I was wondering if you have tried this recipe on a pizza stone with higher temperatures. The pizza you made looks excellent but I think you can improve the crumb texture if you opt to try this method. I understand from the post you do not like over browned crust but the stone will add a different taste and texture worth experimenting with.          Thanks&goodluck, Chiguy
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on November 21, 2005, 06:43:52 PM
dodude,

Welcome, and thank you for the kind remarks. I am always pleased when someone is able to make a good Lehmann pizza, such as the one you made.

I agree with chiguy that it is worth considering a pizza stone. When the dough is put on a cold pan and then placed in the oven, the pan will start to get hot before the pizza because metal has a higher heat conductivity/capacity than the pizza itself. So you may not get as good an oven spring. As long as the dough itself is properly made, with reasonable hydration and without overkneading, the oven spring should be quite good when the cold dough hits the hot pizza stone and the remaining yeast in the dough gives the dough its final burst of activity.

In terms of flour, the Pillsbury bread flour is a good flour. In fact, it is the one that Tom Lehmann often recommends to home pizza makers who do not have access to the kinds of flours that professionals use. Even some pizza operators use Pillsbury bread flour. I personally prefer the King Arthur bread flour, perhaps because I have had the greatest experience with that brand. FYI, the King Arthur Sir Lancelot high-gluten flour is not sold at the retail store level. It has to be purchased from King Arthur itself (usually in 3-lb. bags), or through bakery distributors, foodservice companies and other intermediaries, some of whom will sell to individuals on a cash-and-carry basis. But these folks sell only 50-lb. bags. If you make a lot of pizzas and you can get a 50-lb. bag without incurring very high shipping costs, the per pizza dough flour cost is very low.

BTW, while there is no harm in sifting the flour (you will be using weights anyway), there is no need to do so. The flour is already sifted at the miller's.

The 6-in-1 tomatoes can be purchased from several sources. Many of our members buy them directly from Escalon, at escalon.net. PennMac, at pennmac.com, also sells them (see the Pizza Makers tab and/or call 1-800-223-5928, and ask for Rose, who is a member of the forum). Some Kroger's also sell the 6-in-1s, but not all of them do (the three Kroger's near me don't). Some upscale food stores also sell them. If you order by mail-order, you should check overall cost, including shipping costs. Places like PennMac also sell many other high-quality pizza ingredients, which might enable you to get greater mileage out of the shipping costs if you decide to buy from them. The Escalon shipping costs are low, and the per can cost goes down once you buy more than 3 cans at a time.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Peteg on November 22, 2005, 08:50:13 AM
Dodude,
             I too have been reading here for a while without posting and I would also like to offer my thanks to everyone on this forum that has contribituted so faithfully.  This forum has helped my pie's grow to a level that I never could have achieved alone.  I am also from the Madison area and I thought I would offer a little insight on your 6in1's.  There are 3 places in Madison that I know of that carry them: Gino's Italian Deli on Verona road & Century Ave in Middleton and also Fabroni's on Monona Drive in Monona.  When I first started reading on this sight I noticed a lot of hype over Grande cheese and I think that it does have a slight edge over most of the other fresh mozz's that you'll find around here.  You can get fresh Grande in brine at the Willy Street Co-op.  Hope that helps.  Pete G
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: dodude on November 22, 2005, 01:31:13 PM
Chiguy and Pete-zza: I have considered quite a few things, but there's usually about a $50 difference between considering and doing ;) . I'd love to get a pizza stone. I saw one at the local Orange Tree Imports store, but it seemed rather thin (anybody got a pic of what a "good" one looks like?) and it was $35.

Now, according to my wife I've used up my "kitchen gadgets" budget for the next 300 years, so I must be thrifty (and sometimes stealthy) in these endeavours. About a month ago I got a Chicago Metallic vented double baguette pan, and so alas, I must wait about another month for a stone, and a peel, and one of these, and one of those, etc. etc  ;D

I'm not sure why the pan seems to work so well for me. I neglected to mention that I dust the pan with corn meal before laying on the crust, but I don't know if that matters. What you have to realize is that this pizza was an entirely new dimension better than the others I've been experimenting with over the years, which have been only slight percentages better than the previous. I'll probably start honing in on the subtle nuances more as I progress. I'm curious though, you mentioned:

Quote
When the dough is put on a cold pan and then placed in the oven, the pan will start to get hot before the pizza because metal has a higher heat conductivity/capacity than the pizza itself.

Doesn't the stone also have a higher heat conductivity/capacity than the dough? Maybe it's more the difference of warming up vs. hitting a blazing hot stone instantaneously that you were pointing out to me though.

As for sifting the flour...I think it just comes from my breadmaking experience. I was of the mind that packed flour tends to compress, and before combining with water you'd want to expose more surface area on the flour particles for quicker and more complete absorption. You're probably right that it shouldn't matter either way, but I guess it's just an old habit. Any thoughts on this?

Peteg: awesome. Nice to know there's someone else in this area on this BB. Thanks for the 6-1 and Grande spots. I'll be heading over to Gino's this aft. (yay!) If you ever want to split a 50# pounder of KASL, let me know.......You may be interested in this: If you'd like an insanely good somewhat greek-sicilian style pizza (I don't know how to describe this pizza, but I grew up on the stuff so I'm probably a bit biased) there's a place called Tony and Maria's in Janesville WI. It's only carryout. Everyone I've introduced to the pizza has become an instant T&M cultmember. The crust is truly something to behold. beheld. be-eaten. whatever. magical stuff, it is.

I'll be trying some new experiments (mwuahahahaha) soon. I'm gonna try a side-by-side pizza cookoff using Pillsbury vs. KA bread flour and see what the differences are. I'll post pics. Thanks again guys (and gals...pyegal I'm talking to you)!
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on November 22, 2005, 03:24:58 PM
dodude,

What I was trying to say is that when you put an unbaked pie on a pan in the oven, they are both cold and it is hard to get an oven spring as good as you will get when you put a cold dough on top of a very hot stone. Heat transfers from a hot object to a cold object. In the first case, the unbaked pizza and pan are basically in thermal equilibrium to begin with and they both get their heat from other parts of the oven. In the second case, the heat of the very hot stone quickly transfers to the colder unbaked pizza. That "shock" treatment is what helps produce a good oven spring as the remaining yeast in the dough uses itself up just before it dies (once the dough reaches about 140 degrees F). Usually the pizza and stone will not reach equilibrium because the pizza will be removed from the oven before then.

As far as sifting flour, it might be worth experimenting with some time to see if the hydration is improved by doing that. The weight of the flour won't change but maybe the hydration will be improved.

To see a typical pizza stone, you can go to this place: http://www.bigtray.com/productdetails.asp?catid=18005&sku=AMEPS1416. BTW, in lieu of using a pizza stone, you can also use clay tiles. They can be found at ceramic tile stores and at home improvement stores like Home Depot and Lowe's. They typically come in 6" x 6" or 8" x 8". I found the 6" x" 6" at Home Depot at $0.30 each. The tiles have to be unglazed. Depending on the interior dimensions of your oven, there may be some cutting involved.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Steve on November 22, 2005, 06:45:10 PM
dodude -- Run down to your local carpet/tile store and pick up some UNGLAZED QUARRY TILES. These tiles should be reddish-brown in color and be made from natural clay and nothing else. They are quite common and inexpensive and make an excellent "stone" for your oven (you'll need about nine 6" x 6" tiles to make a tile deck in your oven). I use Daltile Red Blaze quarry tiles in my oven. I called Daltile and confirmed that the Red Blaze tiles contain no harmful chemicals and are safe for use in an oven. But, you'll still need a make-up board (or peel) to get the pizza in and out of the oven. Tell the wife that you want your allowance early!  ;)
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: OzPizza on November 23, 2005, 12:50:17 AM
A few pix from my most recent efforts last week, the batch when I broke my Kitchenaid. This pie is what I call a hybrid half Italian Buffalo Mozz, have Stretched Curd Dairy Farmer's Caboolture Aust. made Mozz. I also made an interpretation based on product description of the Stanslaus sauce recipe using combination of products from an Australian brand who offers several different kinds of canned tomatoes, ie  diced, chopped, crushed, paste,pizza etc. I used a combo of their finely chopped tomatoes mixed with their puree in the same proportions as the stanslaus recipe (http://www.spcardmona.com.au/brands/ardmona/index.html).  It is very good, possibly debatable whether it could do with a smidge more puree or even a small bit of paste to thicken it up a tad.

Anyway result were superb:

(http://img353.imageshack.us/img353/4971/top5ts.jpg)
(http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/5848/side7cq.jpg)
(http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/4746/crosspizz8vy.jpg)
(http://img484.imageshack.us/img484/1172/rim8ui.jpg)
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Wallman on December 04, 2005, 11:56:54 AM
Last night I made several Lehmann style pizza's using Pete's 16 inch recipe (I doubled the quantaties in order to get 2 pizza's per mixing) and KASL flour.  2 dough balls rose in the fridge for about 40 hours and 2 rose for about 33 hours.  All sat for about 1.5 to 2 hours at room temperature (around 65 F) before shaping, dressing and baking.  I found the dough that rose in the fridge for about 40 hours stretched more easily than the dough that rose for about 33 hours, but they all seems to taste the same.  I put a bit of sugar, 1/2 teaspoon, in the dough that rose for 40 hours.

I made 2 home made sauces.  The first was an uncooked sauce using Redpack crushed tomatoes, McCormick pizza herb mix, sugar, olive oil, a bit of red wine, pepper, and garlic salt.  The second sauce was cooked using Contadina crushed tomatoes, sauteed onions and garlic, the herb mix, sugar, pinot gris, olive oil and red peeper.  This was simmered for about 35 minutes.  In my opinion the uncooked sauce tasted better with a fresher flavor, although it might have been because of the different tomatoes.  The pizzas were dressed with a mix of fresh mozzarella and some shredded mozz I bought in a five pound bag from Costco.  I used pepperoni and mushrooms on one pie, mushrooms and black olives on a second, and my personal favorite caramelized onions and hot cherry peppers on a third.  I made another pepperoni and mushroom pie, but I didn't take a picture. All tasted great. I think I may reduce my size to 15 inches which is the size of the tiles I have in my oven since the 16 inch shell when stretched out fully hangs over the edge a bit.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on December 04, 2005, 12:15:38 PM
Recently I decided to experiment with building a home version of a “Hearthkit” “oven within an oven” and to use that arrangement to bake a standard 16-inch Lehmann NY style pizza. To construct that oven, which is shown in the first photo below, I first placed my usual pizza stone on top of four 6” x 6” tiles (unglazed, from Home Depot), one on each corner of the lowest oven rack. The purpose of the four tiles was to provide surfaces to hold two additional tiles in a generally upright position on each side of the stone. As shown in the first photo below, the four side stones were held in position by the next higher oven rack. I finished by placing four more tiles on the next higher oven rack in a generally cater-corner arrangement to provide an opening above the stone, along the general lines recently suggested by fellow member dkipta at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2107.0.html. My thought was that if the heat didn’t concentrate on the top of the pizza during baking I could turn on the broiler and direct top heat through the opening onto the pizza.

For the Lehmann dough recipe, I used the same recipe and dough processing approach as posted earlier in this thread at Reply # 280, page 15, except that I used even cooler water than I previously used. The water was quite cold and came straight from the refrigerator, and its use resulted in a finished dough temperature of around 67 degrees F. This, along with using a very small amount of yeast (about 1/5 teaspoon IDY), was done to extend the fermentation period to about 3 days instead of the usual 1 or 2 days. As it turned out, scheduling issues intervened and required me to use the dough after about 2 days.

The dough was brought to room temperature, which was about 65 degrees F, for about 2 hours before shaping and dressing. In retrospect, the dough should have been allowed to warm up for 3 or more hours since it had risen no more than 10-20 percent during the two days it was in the refrigerator and was still quite cool, around 55 degrees F, when it was shaped and dressed. The dough handled easily and, even though it was fairly extensible, I had no problems shaping and stretching it out to a 16-inch skin. About an hour before I started to put the pizza together, I had preheated the oven and “oven within an oven” for about an hour at around 500-550 degrees F.

Since my pizza stone is not big enough to accommodate a 16-inch pizza, I used my 16-inch pizza screen to hold and dress the skin, as is my usual practice when making the 16-inch Lehmann skin. The dough was dressed in a standard pepperoni style with added diced and roasted red peppers and caramelized sweet onion. The pizza on the screen was placed on top of the four top cater-cornered tiles where it baked for about 4 to 5 minutes. I then shifted the pizza off of the screen and onto the pizza stone below where it baked for about another 2 minutes or so. As I was doing all this, I could see that the bottom of the pizza was baking a bit faster than the top of the pizza and was darkening more than I usually prefer. So, I removed the pizza from the oven.

The pizza itself turned out fine and was very tasty, with the biggest difference, apart from crust coloration, being that the bottom of the crust was crispier than usual, which was a feature that I really liked, even though I might have preferred a lesser amount of bottom crust darkening. Also, the total bake time was about a minute or so less than the standard bake time I use. Overall, the pizza looked a great deal like the ones I saw recently in NYC over Thanksgiving. The rim of the crust was a bit smaller than usual--actually it was a fairly typical size for a NY pizza crust--but it had a decent, and fairly open crumb and a nice chew. I did detect a few large bubbles and small heat blisters at the rim suggesting some underfermentation of the dough (or simply a dough that was too cold), but that is something that can be easily remedied next time by simply letting the dough ferment longer (as I originally had intended to do anyway) or by extending the warm up time on the counter a bit longer until it reaches about 60 degrees F.

The experiment told me that I need to get a better understanding of the thermodynamics of the “oven within an oven” arrangement I constructed if I hope to achieve a better balance between the top and bottom baking of the pizza. Some possibilities that come to mind for future efforts include using a slightly thicker crust, a lower bake temperature and a longer bake time, and a different positioning of the pizza screen/pizza in relation to the upper tiles, the pizza stone, and the broiler element. I didn’t use the broiler element option this time, although had I done so I might have gotten more top crust browning. It’s even possible that I may remove the top tiles altogether in a future experiment and use the broiler element, much as Steve has done in the past with great success. I’d like to find the optimum configuration of both dough and baking procedure in order to get the added crispiness of the crust that appears to be possible using the “oven within the oven” arrangement.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on December 04, 2005, 12:22:02 PM
And the slices...

Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Wallman on December 04, 2005, 01:33:52 PM
Pete,
You outline how to "design" a pizza in  Reply #29 on: October 07, 2004, 02:00:44 PM ». I'm trying to make a spreadsheet calculate the volume measurement for ingredients. You give conversions for salt, IDY and oil in that thread, but not water and flour.

 When I use the conversions Steve posted in the Ingredients and Resources forum http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,82.0.html I don't get the same results. Steve used 4.65 oz. for shifted flour and 5.3 oz. for fluffed/scooped.  What oz. to c. converstion would you suggest for KASL and water?  I can post the spreadsheet if you'd like to see it.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on December 04, 2005, 03:55:04 PM
wallman,

Your post raises some very good points.

It is intentional that I don't use or suggest conversions for water and flour. Water is easy. One cup of water weighs 8.33 ounces, but if I actually weigh water in a tared Pyrex glass measuring cup, using the one-cup marking, I will usually get something like 8 to 8.2 ounces. To get a more usable number, I would have to dramatically increase the number of samples and average them. As often as not, I use the technically correct 8.33 ounce figure. Many people just use 8 ounces (avoirdupois), which is simpler and also the same as the liquid (volume) measurement.

Flour is a lot harder to convert from weight (usually ounces) to volume. A lot of people have attempted to do this, and if you do a Google search you will find all kinds of conversion charts and tables for flours. In many cases, they won't be the same. The problem with flour is its weight will vary depending not only the type of flour, but also on whether it is lightly packed (e.g., sifted) or tightly packed. Its weight will also change as it ages and the moisture content (it starts at around 14% at the mill) diminishes. Humidity can also affect the flour to a certain degree. Again, to get useful conversion data, one would have to take a large number of "cups" of flours, weigh them, and take an average. This would have to be done with each type of flour, and there would have to be a consistently applied method for measuring out the flour samples from a bag of flour. An example of this would be to loosen the flour in the bag of flour by gently stirring it, use a tablespoon to lift flour from the bag to the measuring cup, and then level off the top of the measuring cup with a straight edge without shaking or tamping the measuring cup. This is essentially the approach I take when I convert weights in the recipes I post to volumes, but clearly there are few people willing to do this when they are practicing a recipe. They will in most cases just dip the measuring cup into the bag, scoop the flour out, eyeball it to see if it is about right and maybe shake or tamp the measuring cup to be sure, and then move on to ther rest of the recipe. That's essentially the same approach I use when I try to convert recipes from volumes to weights to determine baker's percents. I try to think like the average person.

I have thought on occasion to take multiple weight samples as discussed above for the flours most commonly used by our members, but when the urge strikes me I usually just lie down until the urge goes away. It is far better in my opinion to buy a good scale and deal in weights for the flour and water. If your spreadsheet will help in this regard, or make it easier for those who don't have or use scales to make a better product, then it might be helpful for you to provide a link to the spreadsheet.

BTW, I have created conversion data for about two dozen ingredients that can possibly be used in pizza doughs. Some of the conversions were based on measuring one-cup quantities (as was done by Steve and other members); other were based on labels on packaging. Interestingly, they aren't always the same. But they will usually be close enough to safely use in most recipes because you can't measure out quantities of ingredients with great precision when using standard measuring cups and spoons. Different brands or sets of measuring cups and spoons will also produce different results. If it will help you, I'd be happy to send you a message with what I have done in this regard so that you can compare my conversion data with yours.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: abc on December 04, 2005, 08:25:58 PM
Pete, your Hearth kit is interesting.  Do you really feel the need for some tiles at the top as your picture illustrates?

For me, my toppings on average,  and this mostly I mean the cheese, bubbles about 2-3 min longer than I like... that is, it begins to break down a bit more than I'd prefer, while the dough bottom and top isn't reaching the char that I like.

my heat comes from gas at the bottom of the oven.

Now, I don't remember what cheese you use, but I've read here somewhere that Grande handles heat well. 
I've been using a block of Polly Low Moisture whole milk.

To compensate I've taken the pizza out to cool for 5 min, then put it back in leaving the oven open door while the pizza still sits on the stone

However this doesn't help the top crust brown for the 2-3 min. more that I'd like.

And there's another problem... AFter this pie is done I need to wait another 10min. for the oven to heat up to 550 again since I left the door open, so all this is a time issue.

I tried parbaking the pizza today... it seems to be another alternative.  Also see extensive spring action from doing this.

Possibly the best chance to eliminate employing either of these 'crutches' is to try a more heat resistant cheese, or somehow change the dynamics of my oven... the stone sits a middle level of the oven... but I don't think this is it.  If radiant heat bouncing down onto the pizza top is the issue, I'd have a problem with crust top overbrowning but I don't feel I do... so if I bring the stone to a lower position, I probably would make the crust top take a bit longer even to brown, making me leave the pizza in the oven even longer... and the cheese has to deal with the 550 degree oven even longer. 

I'm trying also to hold off needing any sugar in the recipe... I do get the browning from a 24hr rise, I just need to bake it about the 8 or so min that I do to get it... I don't usually time it, could be 10min... I just eye it. 

Maybe I need some tiles on the sides like you, or it's a cheese issue.  I know another thing, when I top off my pizza with some fresh mozz. I top it 3 min. before my pizza is done.  I learned I cannot put it on the first stage, it breaks down too much by around 6 minutes.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Wallman on December 04, 2005, 08:38:29 PM
Pete,
Thanks for the quick feedback.  I'm not surprised by your point on estimating the volumetric weight for flour based on what I've read in this forum. I'm hoping to get a decent scale for Christmas!  For what it's worth, I did make a simple spreadsheet using your calculations that estimates Weight and Volumetric measurements using the Baker's Percentages for a Tom L. pizza.  I made an assumption of 5 oz. per cup for the flour, this is obviously open to debate.  Let me know if you think this is useful. The spreadsheet is at:
http://calculator.mealiea.com

Wally
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on December 04, 2005, 10:13:28 PM
abc,

There is nothing particularly original with the Hearthkit-type arrangement I assembled. It borrows from ideas described by Steve and others at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,440.0.html and from dkipta’s suggestion to use the upper layer of tiles above the stone. If I had done proper justice to dkipta’s idea, I would have used more tiles to better enclose the “mini-oven” with just a single well-defined opening at the top. It’s also quite possible as you pointed out that I don’t need the upper layer of tiles and that the pizza stone and the top broiler element are sufficient. If that is so, it may also be possible to move the stone up one notch to move the top of the pizza closer to the broiler element. As you can see, there are many possible approaches.

It’s important, I think, to keep in mind that home ovens are not designed to make only pizzas. They are multi-tasking appliances intended to make not only pizzas but also much bigger meals, like a large turkey, that require a lot of head space. If you look at a Baker’s Pride deck oven, you will see that it is quite shallow. That is what allows the top and bottom of the pizza to bake at a balanced rate such that the top is done at the same time as the bottom, with the right amount of crust color, cheese melting and not burning, vegetables properly cooking, etc. To achieve the same results in a home oven requires trying out a lot of possibilities. In my case, using either a second pizza stone above the first one, or one or more layers of tiles, serves to foreshorten the oven to simulate a hearth or deck type oven. With my oven, the broiler may make the top layer of tiles unnecessary, but I will perhaps still experiment with approaches that foreshorten the oven while producing the proper amount of top and bottom heat.

You raise a good point about what I call “topping dynamics” for lack of a better term. It occurred to me after I viewed the results of the last pizza that I could have controlled the bake of the pizza by the way that I used toppings. However, I dismissed the idea of using that approach since toppings have not been a problem for me and it is easier for me to control crust thickness if I want to slow down the bake. Or I can adjust the stone level, or use a lower bake temperature and a longer bake time. What you might try in your case is to place a part of the cheese under the sauce so that it will be protected somewhat from excessive heat and melting prematurely and browning too quickly. I used a standard Saputo (Frigo) low moisture part-skim supermarket mozzarella cheese, but it is common among pizza operators to use a fuller fat cheese, like the Grande, to deal with premature melting and browning. Using one or both of these techniques might eliminate the need for you to open the oven door and let too much heat escape and to take other corrective measures.

There’s also nothing wrong with using a pre-bake. Member giotto does this with regularity with his NY style and with very good results. More recently, member Canadave posted his recipe for a NY style dough, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2175.0.html, in which his instructions call for a pre-bake. When I try out Canadave’s recipe, I plan to do the same thing. There is also nothing wrong with removing and replacing a pizza to get better crust crispiness and to otherwise control the final results. This is an approach that was recommended by member quido some time ago. None of these palliatives would be necessary, of course, if you had a Baker’s Pride deck oven in your kitchen. As you consider the possibilities, you might also look at this interesting piece on pizza thermodynamics, at http://education.arm.gov/teacherslounge/lessons/pizza.pdf., to see if it inspires you toward an easier or better solution to the issues you have been addressing. It would be preferable, I think, to solve all your problems by modifying the pizza itself rather than the modifying the oven itself. Once you get the pizza dynamics right, then you can always explore some of the interesting oven dynamics, as I am now in the process of doing.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on December 05, 2005, 01:04:29 PM
Wally,

Thank you very much for providing a link to your Lehmann spreadsheet. It is a nice and simple-to-use spreadsheet.

When I first designed my spreadsheet, it, too, was intended to be specific to the Lehmann NY style dough recipe. But, as usual, I went overboard and expanded it to be usable for just about any dough recipe based on baker's percents, for any desired number of pizzas, except for deep-dish, for which I designed a separate spreadsheet, mainly for convenience but also because the dough weight calculations are a bit more involved. I now provide for the option to select either cake, ADY or IDY (but only one of these), and I also provide for the option to select either regular salt or Kosher salt (but only one). I added honey to the list of ingredient choices (mainly for Randy's American style dough recipe) and I added two "Other" ingredient choices, which can be just about anything, including vital wheat gluten, dried dairy whey, non-fat dry milk, etc. For the basic dough ingredients, except for flour but including water, yeast, salt, sugar and oil, the conversions from weights to volumes (teaspoons, tablespoons, cups and gallons) are built into the spreadsheet, as you did. I use a separate Sheet to convert the "Other" choices from weights to volumes. With a little tweaking, I can even allow for use of preferments as one of the "Other" choices. I have discovered that the more involved the spreadsheet, the more prone it is to errors, especially if someone accidentally or intentionally messes around with certain of the cells. I haven't tried to "crash" your spreadsheet yet, but there is a certain value to its simplicity, which may inherently make it more stable.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: canadave on December 05, 2005, 01:24:34 PM
Quote
There’s also nothing wrong with using a pre-bake. Member giotto does this with regularity with his NY style and with very good results. More recently, member Canadave posted his recipe for a NY style dough, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2175.0.html, in which his instructions call for a pre-bake. When I try out Canadave’s recipe, I plan to do the same thing.

Peter,

If your pizzas with your "hearthkit" are coming out more well-done on the bottom than the top, you might want to change up things when you try my recipe, and dispense with the pre-bake (especially if you're using a screen).  I only do the pre-bake because otherwise it's tricky for me to get a dressed pizza into the oven and onto the tiles.  Plus, given your temperature issues, a pre-bake in your case would only make the baking differential between the top and bottom of your pizza even greater.

In terms of temperature control and making sure the bottom and top are both baked properly, I highly recommend the use of the top-down broiler element as a controlling factor.  To make sure the top bakes more (or quicker) relative to the bottom, switch to the broil element earlier.  If you want the bottom to bake more (or quicker) than the top, either don't bother with the broil, or switch to broil later in the process.  This has proven to be a very effective way for me to make sure I get a pizza whose top and bottom are both quite satisfactory (although it does take some trial and error the first few times you try it--but once you figure out how your oven reacts, it's great).

Cheers,
Dave
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on December 05, 2005, 01:47:18 PM
Dave,

Thanks for the advice.

My practice is usually like yours. I typically bake the pizza on the screen for several minutes on an upper oven rack and then move it down onto the pizza stone. The trigger point for moving the pizza onto the stone is the rim of the crust starting to turn brown and the cheeses melting and bubbling. If I conclude that I need more top bake, or if the bottom appears to be baking too fast, I turn on the broiler, in the same manner as you mentioned. The Hearth-kit like assembly I used recently is a departure from my usual approach. I think the greater thickness of your crust from the thickness I usually use for the NY Lehmann style will help mitigate the top/bottom bake balance problem. Even with a top layer of tiles, I can still move the pizza on top of those tiles if called for, and use the broiler to control the top bake. It's exactly like you said. You try things, see what happens, and make changes the next time if necessary. Each time, you hope you learn something that inches you toward a better result. The experimentation also is a good teacher.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: abc on December 13, 2005, 12:09:55 AM
abc,


You raise a good point about what I call “topping dynamics” for lack of a better term. It occurred to me after I viewed the results of the last pizza that I could have controlled the bake of the pizza by the way that I used toppings. However, I dismissed the idea of using that approach since toppings have not been a problem for me and it is easier for me to control crust thickness if I want to slow down the bake. Or I can adjust the stone level, or use a lower bake temperature and a longer bake time. What you might try in your case is to place a part of the cheese under the sauce so that it will be protected somewhat from excessive heat and melting prematurely and browning too quickly. I used a standard Saputo (Frigo) low moisture part-skim supermarket mozzarella cheese, but it is common among pizza operators to use a fuller fat cheese, like the Grande, to deal with premature melting and browning. Using one or both of these techniques might eliminate the need for you to open the oven door and let too much heat escape and to take other corrective measures.

There’s also nothing wrong with using a pre-bake. Member giotto does this with regularity with his NY style and with very good results. More recently, member Canadave posted his recipe for a NY style dough, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2175.0.html, in which his instructions call for a pre-bake. When I try out Canadave’s recipe, I plan to do the same thing. There is also nothing wrong with removing and replacing a pizza to get better crust crispiness and to otherwise control the final results. This is an approach that was recommended by member quido some time ago. None of these palliatives would be necessary, of course, if you had a Baker’s Pride deck oven in your kitchen. As you consider the possibilities, you might also look at this interesting piece on pizza thermodynamics, at http://education.arm.gov/teacherslounge/lessons/pizza.pdf., to see if it inspires you toward an easier or better solution to the issues you have been addressing. It would be preferable, I think, to solve all your problems by modifying the pizza itself rather than the modifying the oven itself. Once you get the pizza dynamics right, then you can always explore some of the interesting oven dynamics, as I am now in the process of doing.

Peter


another polished reply from you Pete.  I quoted a portion of it above... I actually have been placing the cheese first, then sauce... for the past few months... not to postpone cheese browning, but something i decided to do ever since i started using the Lehman recipe.  Actually, what I've noticed is the whole tomato/cheese mix comes to a boil, not so much that the cheese dries out with any kind of overbrowning.   I've tried prebaking again on Sat... what i do is pizzascreen to stone... for about 3 min.  Then I pull it out of the oven, let it steam off for about 1min, and start topping... while giving time for the oven to heat back to 550degrees, as it drops to about 525 when opened for about 8 seconds to yank out the pizza.

the 3 min or so prebake is enough to free the pizza from the screen, I've noticed.  when I put the dressed pizza back into the oven, I've no longer used the peel.

I've begun to really like the bottom crust browning with this method of crust to stone w/o the screen... minimal screen marks, but this didn't really ever bother me, but the charring seemed more pronounced, more shock layered with subtle spots of paleness makes it look like it came from a hot oven.

It seems as though the crusts made in my past method with the screens from beginning to the last 4 or so min where upon I removed the screens would yield a crust that though showed charring, it wasn't as pronounced and there were overall, more brown shades.  As if the screen too evenly distributed the heat/shock and made the crust too pretty, less rustic, less old world.  In other words the prebake then 'naked' baking gave me a crust with black and white, with some shades of gray.  The nonprebake method with 'clothed' baking gave black, some white, and many shades of gray.

Most unfortunate is I didn't take any pics of the bottom, but I did of the top.  I'll have to shrink down the jpegs to be able to attach them up for viewing.

BTW I've had much success now with the Lehman dough than a few months ago when I first posted and first used the Lehman dough.

I've had to cut down the knead time, I do feel now I had been overmixing it with my Kitchenaid... this seemed to have given the crust a real NY Pizza quality and I was able to get larger voids.  Then my recent prebaking gave each pizza a few more large voids on avg. which I enjoy.

In using the 16" recipe, the past two weeks instead of using 7.95oz of water I've used 7.80oz, this has reduced the over extensibility I previously had a hard time getting used to.  I'll try 7.95 again just to double check, but I think overkneading was a main culprit of my problems reported a couple of months ago.

I use the dough anywhere from 18 to 24hrs of frig. time at around 46 degrees.  My frig. has a digital external temp adjuster.

With some control now with the dough, I'm also now curious about fiddling with a 18" pizza again and now with a prebake. 
I may even prebake w/o sitting the screen on the stone... this is your method of prebaking is it not, Pete.

Though you're getting the crust to 'set' i'm sure, does prebaking using the screen only, that is, not sitting it on a stone, result in any crust bottom browning? 


Too bad I ran out of flour now, and I do hope to be able to land some Grande Mozz.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on December 13, 2005, 08:55:05 AM
abc,

First of all, I am glad to hear that you are now having good success with the Lehmann recipe. No matter how good a recipe may be and look on paper, and no matter how good your dough has turned out, there are other factors, such as oven dynamics, that can make the recipe a success or a failure. And, since ovens differ so much from one to the other, the pizza usually has to be adapted to the unique oven situation that the user has to work with. Even then there are limitations. Once the dough comes off the hook and goes into the refrigerator, its DNA is essentially fixed and unalterable. That means that you have to work on the "topping dynamics" until such time as you figure out how to improve the oven dynamics, however that is achieved. In my last post on this topic I mentioned the possibility of altering the layering sequence of the ingredients used to dress pizzas. After I posted that, it occurred to me that it is also possible to use colder or warmer toppings, even sauces, to better adapt the pizza to the oven configuration. Some members put the cheeses in the refrigerator, and even in the freezer for a while, and put the cheeses on the pizza cold. I have also read of members who put the sauces on while they are warm, maybe even hot. These, too, are concessions to the oven, since they would not be needed if the oven was more accommodating. Ideally, I would much prefer to get the oven situation perfected as much as possible rather than going through all kinds of contortions to adapt the pizza to the oven's shortcomings and deficiencies.

In my case, my usual practice with the larger Lehmann pizzas (above 14 inches) has been to bake the pizza on a screen placed on an upper rack position and to shift the pizza onto a preheated stone on the lowest oven rack position once the pizza sets up and the rim of the pizza starts to expand and turn brown (in reaction to the oven spring) and the cheeses start to bubble. That usually takes about 5 minutes or so. The time on the stone is about 2 minutes, or for so long as it takes to provide decent bottom crust browning without overbaking the top of the pizza. This approach will produce decent and fairly uniform bottom browning but, because a screen is used, the bottom crust will not be quite as crispy as using only the stone. On occasion I will put the broiler on to balance bottom and top baking or to increase the color of the crust at the rim. With this technique, I have been able to use sauce, cheeses, and toppings at normal room temperature, and I have not found a need to use pre-baking, although I am open to the idea. Until such time as I find it useful to reconfigure my oven to make the bigger pizzas without the need to use screens, I suspect that I will continue to use my current approach. I will however attempt over time to play around with the oven-within-oven approach to see if I can make the pizzas even better. Otherwise there is no point in doing it. I would love to be able to just shape a pizza as usual, put on the toppings in a normal way, and bake it as usual, just as is done in the pizzerias. Until then, if it ever comes, I will do whatever works.

I'd love to see the photos of your recent pizza if you are able to post them.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: AP on December 20, 2005, 05:10:42 PM
I made this yesterday:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg5635.html#msg5635

I was going to take pictures but we ate it too fast.  It was the best dough I've ever made.  It was better than what I get from trader joes in the plastic bags for a dollar.  I used Stone-buhr bread flour and bob's red mill VWG.  I've ordered some KASL but don't have it yet (I even asked for a bag of caputo for christmas).  It sat in the fridge for 24 hours.  I pulled it out of the fridge about 1.5 hours before baking while my oven heated up. 

I made a couple interesting observations: 1) normally when I place the dough on the stone I start as far back as possible as to not run out of room at the front.  The dough toward the back of the stone (and back of the oven, of course) was positively beautiful.  Also, I have a rectangular baking stone and I noticed that a round pizza stone is probably a good idea for round pizzas.  Hard to say though -- because the oven is rectangular.  Regardless, the closer the pizza was to the edge of the stone the better the crust came out.  My oven is a whirlpool with a bottom broiler.  I haven't seen how hot I can get it with the broiler on.  I think it tops out at 525.  2) I have a kitchenaid pro 600 -- at times with some of these doughs it sounds like it's going to burst into pieces.  A little bit of oil in the dough seems to ease things up though...even a teaspoon in a Lb of flour seems to make a difference.

I used ADY and didn't proof it.  I adjusted my ADY based on a table that I found on the web here: http://www.theartisan.net/convert_yeast_two.htm

I have a new adaptation going in the fridge right now which is kind of the a16 formula with my stone-buhr/vwg substitute (Sacrilege, I know).  I proofed that yeast.  It got much bigger in the fridge.  I've also toyed around with water temp.  Is there any specific guideline for what your ending internal dough temperature should be before you hit the fridge?  Mine have been at around 80 degrees F after 10 minutes with the dough hook on speed 1.

Ok thanks again for the formula.

AP






Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on December 20, 2005, 08:15:05 PM
AP,

I'm glad to hear that the Stone Buhr/VWG combination worked out for you. I think you will notice a difference when you try the KASL. I'd be interested to get your feedback when you get to try it out in a Lehmann recipe.

The finished dough temperature that I strive for is around 80 degrees F. It can range around that number by several degrees on each side, but I would rather err on the low side for a Lehmann style dough because it will ferment faster if the dough is much above 80 degrees F.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Wallman on December 20, 2005, 08:55:11 PM
Here's my latest stab at Tom L. New York Style pizza, with thanks to Peter for the recipe tips.  I took the Peter's basic Tom L. recipe for a 16 inch pie, using the following baker's percentages:

Flour 100%, 12.10 oz. (KASL)
Water 63%, 7.62 oz.
Salt 1.75%, 0.21 oz. (just over 1 t.)
Oil 1.00%, 0.12 oz. (about 3/4 t.)
IDY 0.30%, 0.04 oz. (about 1/3 t.)

I upped the yeast a little bit from the basic recipe to get a little more rise to the crust, but not quite as much rise as I got when following Canadave's recipe (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2175.0.html). Don't get me wrong, Dave's recipe is very good, I was just trying for something in between.

I followed Pete's basic mixing instructions using a KitchenAid mixer, making dough for 2 pies, in 2 batches and let the dough balls rise for 48 hours.  I think the 2-day rise really helped, the dough was very easy to work with and streched really thin. In fact, on one pizza it was a little too thin and some of the topping broke through on to my tiles, but that's why God invented self-cleaning ovens. I think I need to work on my hand tossing skills a bit  ;)

I topped them with an uncooked sauce of Contadina tomatoes, pizza spices, garlic salt, dried onion, pepper, olive oil and red wine, moz. cheese (a mix of fresh and shreaded from Costco), mushrooms, and pepperoni.  I stretched the pies on a work surface dusted with Semolina flour which gave a little crunch to the crust, then baked them for about 8 minutes in a 515-530 F oven.  There was a nice crumb in the crust which was very flavorful.  Here are some pics --
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on December 20, 2005, 09:25:06 PM
Wally,

Very nice job.

Unless you are currently in a warm climate, it does make some sense to increase the yeast a bit. However, if you take a look at Reply # 280 at page 15 of this thread, you will see that I tried using 0.17% yeast (IDY) in a 16-inch Lehmann dough and got very good oven spring and a nice, open and airy crumb. The yeast is just one of the factors, and so long as there is enough in the dough to support a good oven spring when the dough is exposed to the oven heat (or pizza stone/tiles), you will get a decent rise in the crust. In the typical Lehmann dough, the yeast is fed only by sugar that for the most part has to be extracted from the flour itself, and not from added sugar. So, unless you go out beyond, say, 72 hours, there will usually be enough yeast in the dough at the time of baking to support a decent oven spring.

Peter

Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: chiguy on December 20, 2005, 09:54:58 PM
 Wallman,
  A nice job on the pizza, i like the color of the sauce. I also like the balance between the chhese, sauce and other ingrediants.    Chiguy
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: abc on December 23, 2005, 01:42:17 PM
abc,


I'd love to see the photos of your recent pizza if you are able to post them.

Peter

happy holiday.  here's that parbaked 16" hand tossed pizza.  It was with a layer of polly-o low moisture mozz, then drained uncooked tomatoes seasoned the night before, fresh spinach sauted in olive oil and garlic, a bit of fresh sliced carando pepperoni, chopped fresh onions, chopped fresh garlic with olive oil, oregano.  Topped with fresh mozzarella for the final bake until it made pools around the pie.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: AP on December 23, 2005, 08:39:01 PM
Ok here are some shots of my go at Peter's VWG + bread flour.  Specifically, these are Stone-buhr brand bread flour and Bob's Red Mill Vital Wheat Gluten.  I ran these with non-proofed ADY under the dough hook for about 10 minutes.  I found that starting the dough with cold(er) water produces a better end product.  One dough I got up to 83 degrees before retarding in the fridge and I think the yeast was too spent at the beginning.  The dough expanded in the fridge significantly.  Starting with cold water, though, I could get the finished temp at 79-80 and didn't see as much action in the fridge.  All these pics were from dough retarded for 2 days.  I have some KASL coming on the 29th so I can't wait to see how those compare.  I'm still in shock that I can make this dough at home even without special flour.  Also; my oven was on "stand-by" at 500 F for about 2 hours...then I kick on the lower broiler while baking.  In my oven, turning on the broiler just means that the thermostat is fixed so the flame stays on regardless of temp.  I can get it up to 525 about.  Sorry I didn't get any really good crumb shots.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: AP on December 23, 2005, 08:40:37 PM
Some others...same formula.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on December 23, 2005, 09:41:58 PM
AP,

Those are great looking pizzas. Whatever you are doing, it is working.

With regard to your comments concerning extensibility, I’d like to mention that although I have settled on a hydration percent of 63% for my own Lehmann NY style doughs, and frequently recite it in many of the Lehmann formulations, there is no particular magic to that number. The typical range for the Lehmann dough formulations is around 58-64% (give or take). While I haven't made many doughs at the lower end of that range, but quite a few at the upper end and using small amounts of yeast and using cool/cold water, I am coming to believe that you may get better extensibility (less stretchiness) by using a lower hydration percent instead of using either a small amount of yeast or cold/cool water. A lower hydration dough will usually ferment slower than a higher hydration dough, all other factors being equal. I will have to test the thesis out sometime.

I am curious to know why you have not been hydrating the active dry yeast (ADY). I assume you are using the ADY like instant dry yeast (IDY) by adding it directly to the flour. One of the main reasons ADY is proofed in water (warm), apart from testing its viability, is because ADY has more dead cells than IDY. It takes several minutes to get the live cells to the point where they can be effectively used. Otherwise, you have to rely on the moisture in the flour or the added water to hydrate the ADY. And neither IDY nor ADY likes to be shocked with cold water. In the case of IDY, putting it in with the flour mitigates that concern. Even then, it is a good idea to let the IDY and flour sit for a while before adding the cold water. I have read that some pizza operators do use ADY without first proofing it, but the logic for doing that was never explained.

I will be interested in the results you get when your King Arthur Sir Lancelot high-gluten flour arrives. But, either way, it is good to know that you have another option in those cases where high-gluten flour is unavailable.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: AP on December 24, 2005, 03:35:30 AM
I wasn't proofing the ADY because I didn't want to give the yeast any advantage.  This is silly, I know.  In every other recipe I've made over the past 5 years I've always added my yeast to the 90-100F water before mixing in.  I guess the idea was that everything I had done before this was backwards and wrong...and now it was time to do things the opposite to make them right.  I'll probably just end up using IDY.  I'm also curious as to why most formulas mentioned here include IDY.  I suspect that it is because the IDY is less, more potent yeast cells.  This would give me equal power as the ADY without such a yeasty presence.  I could be completely wrong about that.  I believe yeast to be a woman of the night; I want her to get in, do her job, and leave without a trace.  (not that I have any experience with that...but I think it's a good analogy.)

I am curious to know something: If I were to knead by hand, how long would it take me to accomplish what my kitchenaid does on speed 1 in 10 minutes?  I have a feeling it would take a half hour.  Also -- do you think the heat of human hands provide an advantage or not to building gluten?

I can't say enough about what I've learned on this website in such a short time.  I even cracked open my "crust and crumb" book yesterday and couldn't believe how much more sense it all made.  Thanks again....I can't wait to report on my KASL and Caputo dough experiences.

Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: AP on December 24, 2005, 03:40:24 AM
Oh -- I also wanted to note something about my pizza stone.  It is virtually the same shape as the cutting board you see in the second pic I posted.  Notice the browning of the crust on the long sides of [what would be] the stone and the opposite on the short sides.  I think I'm going to try to find a round stone for even heat around the round pizza.  Or start making rectangular pizzas.  I haven't quite mastered the pizza shaping thing...  :-\
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on December 24, 2005, 07:40:10 AM
AP,

There's no reason why you can't continue to use the ADY. I would just recommend that you proof it in a bit of warm water. I don't think that there is just one reason why you see IDY used more than ADY here on the forum. The industry is increasingly moving in the direction of using IDY but, apart from that, it is also more convenient to use because it can go directly in the flour, therby avoiding the need to set aside warm proofing water, combining it with the rest of the water after proofing, adding it to the dry ingredients, etc.

As for your question on kneading by hand, the knead time will depend of course on the amount of dough you are making but my experience is that it takes at least double the time of a stand mixer for a given dough ball weight. FYI, King Arthur does not recommend hand kneading for doughs made from the KASL. Only machines. I personally think that machine keading does a better job at gluten development than hand kneading, but that is just my own opinion. 

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Wallman on December 30, 2005, 08:31:36 PM
Santa brought me a Soehnle Futura scale and I used it to make dough on Wednesday.  To be honest, the digitally measured crust, following Pete's basic 63% hydration recipe, didn't taste that different than the volumetric measured crust. But, since the crust tastes great either way, it was a successful pizza bake.  The scale does make it easy to make dough to Baker's percents. It is also a faster way to make dough since you can quickly measure the ingredients and get them into the mixer.  BTW, I measured a scooped cup of KASL and it weighted 5.5 oz.  I certainly wouldn't take this as the gospel since my sample was one cup! 

Hope everybody here has a happy New Year. I'll be bbq'ing (whole beef tenderloin for New Year's Eve and bone-in pork loin roast for New Year's Day) instead of making pizza, no disrespect to Pizzamaking.com'ers, but it's a holiday tradition in my household  ;)
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on December 30, 2005, 09:51:22 PM
Wally,

The most important ingredients to weigh on your new scale are the flour and water. Unless you are making large amounts of dough, the other ingredients are harder to weigh on the scale with a high degree of accuracy. For these ingredients, volumes are just as good.

For some time I have tried to post the volume equivalents to weights, so if you were using the volume equivalents I posted I'm glad to hear that they worked out. Some time you should weigh several "cups" of flour in succession and note the variations. I think you will then see the merit to using your scale to weigh things.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Wallman on December 30, 2005, 10:01:26 PM
Pete,
I did mainly get the scale for weighing flour, based on your recommendations oh master of the dough!  :) While making my dough the other day, I did measure the salt, oil and IDY and as you pointed out in an earlier post, the amounts are so small that blowing on the scale will make them change .01 of an oz.  My wife likes to bake, so the scale will certainly come in handy for other things, plus as I said, I think it helps speed up the measuring process -- which means I can get to the eating process, my favorite part!
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: sebdesn on December 31, 2005, 07:37:43 PM
Wallman,  If your scale does it ,you might use the metric system , grams are a lot easier to juggle around than oz.  and besides that, if you have a metric beaker the h2O is 1 gram per ml. so you dont have to weigh it.
Bud
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: abc on December 31, 2005, 08:05:29 PM
Here's my latest stab at Tom L. New York Style pizza, with thanks to Peter for the recipe tips.  I took the Peter's basic Tom L. recipe for a 16 inch pie, using the following baker's percentages:

Flour 100%, 12.10 oz. (KASL)
Water 63%, 7.62 oz.
Salt 1.75%, 0.21 oz. (just over 1 t.)
Oil 1.00%, 0.12 oz. (about 3/4 t.)
IDY 0.30%, 0.04 oz. (about 1/3 t.)

I upped the yeast a little bit from the basic recipe to get a little more rise to the crust, but not quite as much rise as I got when following Canadave's recipe (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2175.0.html). Don't get me wrong, Dave's recipe is very good, I was just trying for something in between.

I followed Pete's basic mixing instructions using a KitchenAid mixer, making dough for 2 pies, in 2 batches and let the dough balls rise for 48 hours.  I think the 2-day rise really helped, the dough was very easy to work with and streched really thin. In fact, on one pizza it was a little too thin and some of the topping broke through on to my tiles, but that's why God invented self-cleaning ovens. I think I need to work on my hand tossing skills a bit  ;)

I topped them with an uncooked sauce of Contadina tomatoes, pizza spices, garlic salt, dried onion, pepper, olive oil and red wine, moz. cheese (a mix of fresh and shreaded from Costco), mushrooms, and pepperoni.  I stretched the pies on a work surface dusted with Semolina flour which gave a little crunch to the crust, then baked them for about 8 minutes in a 515-530 F oven.  There was a nice crumb in the crust which was very flavorful.  Here are some pics --


wall...  you put sauce first, then cheese right?
btw, what 'costco' cheese did you use.  from what i see they carry pollyo stuff, and maybe 1 more brand.  in both cases they have preshredded stuff.

your cheese looks really oily like most NY pizzerias.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: pam on December 31, 2005, 10:49:39 PM
btw, what 'costco' cheese did you use.  from what i see they carry pollyo stuff, and maybe 1 more brand.  in both cases they have preshredded stuff.

I'm starting to wonder whether Costco doesn't carry different stuff in different parts of the country, because earlier someone mentioned they picked up Conagra "Full Power" high-gluten flour at Costco and the only Conagra "high gluten" flour available at the local Costco isn't their "Full Power" and it ain't high gluten (it's only 10% protein) >:(, someone else mentioned their local Costco carries All Trumps, which the one here doesn't (at least I've never seen it, and I'm in there at least once a week) >:( >:(, and some of you are apparently able to get Polly-O at your local Costco, and the only Polly-O they carry here is the string cheese, which I find to be somewhat drier and less creamy than the 1 lb blocks I buy at Kroger. >:( >:( >:(
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Wallman on January 01, 2006, 01:38:34 PM
wall...  you put sauce first, then cheese right?
btw, what 'costco' cheese did you use.  from what i see they carry pollyo stuff, and maybe 1 more brand.  in both cases they have preshredded stuff.

your cheese looks really oily like most NY pizzerias.

I used the pre-shredded, I don't recall the name. It was in a big bag. The Costco by me, Northern VA, also stocks polly-o is big bricks and All Trumps.  I plan to Polly-O soon and when I run out of my 50 lb. bag of KASL, I'll get some All Trumps.  I did put the sauce on first. Some of the oil in the pictures may have also come from the pepperoni.  Not low fat, but tasty!
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Dartanian on January 09, 2006, 09:47:48 PM
Hi Pete --

I was reading this thread some today and came across the discussion about how it is ideal for the dough to be between 80-85 F when it goes in to the fridge.  How do you figure out what the water temperature needs to be to get the dough at the right temperature?

Dartanian
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on January 10, 2006, 12:22:46 AM
Dartanian,

That’s a topic that generates a lot of reactions whenever I discuss it. So, let me preface my reply to you by saying that finished dough temperature is more important to professional pizza operators than to home pizza makers, especially in the context of using cold fermentation of dough balls. Most professional pizza operators do not like to see their dough balls rise too much or too fast while under refrigeration. If the dough balls are too warm and rise too fast or too much, the dough balls can spread out and run together within the dough boxes. Dough balls that expand too much use up more real estate within the dough boxes. This can translate into a need to use more dough boxes. So, keeping dough balls on the cool side seems to work well for pizza operators who rely on cold fermentation. As it so happens, a finished dough temperature of 80-85 degrees F is considered optimal for fermentation purposes for bread and pizza dough. In a home environment you can even use 75-80 degrees F if you’d like. That's because home refrigerators tend to run several degrees warmer than professional coolers.

By contrast, in a home environment it is no big deal if a dough ball or a few dough balls ferment faster and rise faster because of a higher finished dough temperature. This may foreshorten the dough’s useful life but it is rarely fatal. And there are ways of compensating for this if you know what you are doing. It is also possible to use simple water temperature adjustments to compensate for seasonal variations that can affect dough temperature. And without doing a lot of mathematical calculations. Even professionals rely on simple water temperature adjustments, and especially if they are using employess who are not math-savvy to make their doughs.

If you would like to read more on this topic, I have written on it several times on the forum, including at Reply #3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,567.0.html, (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,567.0.html,) and at
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,486.msg4163.html#msg4163. (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,486.msg4163.html#msg4163.) And if you would like to hear from a real expert on this subject, you may want to take a look at this Q & A item by Tom Lehmann himself: http://www.pmq.com/mag/2003spring/tom_lehmann.shtml. (http://www.pmq.com/mag/2003spring/tom_lehmann.shtml.)

Peter

EDIT (5/15/14): Since the link to the above Lehmann article is no longer operative, see the Wayback Machine link to the same article at http://web.archive.org/web/20070502014430/http://www.pmq.com/mag/2003spring/tom_lehmann.shtml (http://web.archive.org/web/20070502014430/http://www.pmq.com/mag/2003spring/tom_lehmann.shtml)
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Dartanian on January 10, 2006, 06:53:01 AM
Thanks, Peter.

Dartanian.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on January 18, 2006, 02:51:32 PM
Recently, I took a first stab at making a “take-and-bake” version of the Lehmann NY style dough. I was not looking to make a take-and-bake pizza per se, but rather I was hoping to achieve one or both of the following objectives: 1) To be able to make one or more pizza rounds (“skins”) one of more days in advance, and to refrigerate them until used; and 2) to take the skins a step further and make fully-dressed, unbaked pizzas that can be transported to someone else’s place to be baked rather than in my own oven and without requiring a pizza stone or tiles or a peel (although in my case I might bring my peel to be on the safe side).

After having read about the take-and-bake industry and the ways that doughs are commonly formulated to allow transport of unbaked, fully-dressed pizzas from the take-and-bake shop or independent’s pizzeria to the consumer’s home, I concluded that possibly the take-and-bake approach was the way to accomplish the above objectives, and particularly the second objective.

So, I reformulated the basic Lehmann NY style dough to reflect the dough chemistry and physics that take-and-bake doughs seem to rely on for their success. What especially intrigued me is that take-and-bake pizzas are “designed” to permit the consumer to bake them in the consumer’s oven without the need for a pizza stone/tiles or peel. Typically, the pizza is baked on the center oven rack position, at an oven temperature of 425 degrees F, for about 10-18 minutes. A carrier, in the form of either a tray (such as a Pactiv brand take-and-bake tray) or a cardboard/parchment paper combination, is used to facilitate the loading of the pizza into the oven. Since I don’t have access to Pactiv trays (they are sold to professionals), I elected to use a homemade version that I fabricated from cardboard and parchment paper.

Being a novice at this sort of thing, I reformulated the Lehmann dough as best I could based on what I had learned, I made a skin (16-inches), placed it on the parchment paper/cardboard arrangement, placed the entire assembly (covered with plastic wrap) in the refrigerator for about a day, removed the plastic wrap, dressed the pizza (in a simple pepperoni style), and baked it. I even let the dressed pizza sit on my countertop, covered with plastic wrap, for about an hour before baking, to simulate the travel of the pizza from one point to another. The pizza was baked on the center oven rack of my oven, which had been preheated to 425 degrees F, for about 12 minutes. The pizza sagged at the side edges at the beginning, so it is something I will have to work on in my future attempts to make a better take-and-bake pizza. Maybe I can even get a few Pactiv trays to play around with.

The photos below show the finished Lehmann “take-and-bake” pizza. This is one of those cases where the photo belies the actual results. The pizza was better than the photos indicate. The finished pizza was quite delicious, with a thin, tasty crust, good crust color (top and bottom), and a reasonably decent crumb. It was also very chewy at the rim and crispy. If anything, the crust was too thin and crispy and, for me, a bit too chewy, and quite different overall from the normal Lehmann NY style pizzas I have made. However, in due course I hope to improve the formulation to deal with these issues. What I did learn, however, is that it is possible to make unbaked skins and refrigerate them for at least a day before using them, and possibly longer, and also to make an unbaked, fully-dressed pizza using such a skin that can travel to another location for baking in a standard home oven, at normal oven temperatures, and without requiring a pizza stone/tiles or a peel. More work needs to be done but that sounds pretty good to me for a start.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Wallman on January 18, 2006, 09:29:24 PM
Here's my latest stab at Tom L's NY Style Pizza. The 16 inch pie pictured below was made following Peter's basic recipe at 63% hydration with a 2 day rise in the fridge.  I used KASL flour for the dough and my wife's new Kitchenaide 11 c. food processor to mix the dough.  I think I may have over processed the dough slightly since the crust edge didn't rise quite as much as when I've used a stand mixer, the crust was also a little crisper than I wanted, but it tasted good.   

I dressed the pie with fresh moz. and canned mushrooms. I used an uncooked sauce using the Rosa tomatoes, pictured below, I found at a small Italian deli here in Manassas, 2 teaspoons of Penzy's pizza spice, 2 teaspoons sugar, 1 teaspoon olive oil, a shot or so of red wine, and a bit of fresh cracked pepper. I was disappointed in the sauce, it didn't really taste that great. It definitely need more salt (the tomatoes were unsalted).  The tomatoes cost $2.69 a can and I don't think they were really worth it. Redpack tasted better. 

Only  one problem with the pizza, I cracked the glass on my range door. A word to the wise, don't drip room temperature toppings on an oven door that has been heating at 530 F for over an hour!  Fortunately, I found an online store that sells replacement glass for Frigidaire ranges.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: RockyMarciano on January 18, 2006, 10:18:00 PM
Recently, I took a first stab at making a “take-and-bake” version of the Lehmann NY style dough. I was not looking to make a take-and-bake pizza per se, but rather I was hoping to achieve one or both of the following objectives: 1) To be able to make one or more pizza rounds (“skins”) one of more days in advance, and to refrigerate them until used; and 2) to take the skins a step further and make fully-dressed, unbaked pizzas that can be transported to someone else’s place to be baked rather than in my own oven and without requiring a pizza stone or tiles or a peel (although in my case I might bring my peel to be on the safe side).

After having read about the take-and-bake industry and the ways that doughs are commonly formulated to allow transport of unbaked, fully-dressed pizzas from the take-and-bake shop or independent’s pizzeria to the consumer’s home, I concluded that possibly the take-and-bake approach was the way to accomplish the above objectives, and particularly the second objective.

So, I reformulated the basic Lehmann NY style dough to reflect the dough chemistry and physics that take-and-bake doughs seem to rely on for their success. What especially intrigued me is that take-and-bake pizzas are “designed” to permit the consumer to bake them in the consumer’s oven without the need for a pizza stone/tiles or peel. Typically, the pizza is baked on the center oven rack position, at an oven temperature of 425 degrees F, for about 10-18 minutes. A carrier, in the form of either a tray (such as a Pactiv brand take-and-bake tray) or a cardboard/parchment paper combination, is used to facilitate the loading of the pizza into the oven. Since I don’t have access to Pactiv trays (they are sold to professionals), I elected to use a homemade version that I fabricated from cardboard and parchment paper.

Being a novice at this sort of thing, I reformulated the Lehmann dough as best I could based on what I had learned, I made a skin (16-inches), placed it on the parchment paper/cardboard arrangement, placed the entire assembly (covered with plastic wrap) in the refrigerator for about a day, removed the plastic wrap, dressed the pizza (in a simple pepperoni style), and baked it. I even let the dressed pizza sit on my countertop, covered with plastic wrap, for about an hour before baking, to simulate the travel of the pizza from one point to another. The pizza was baked on the center oven rack of my oven, which had been preheated to 425 degrees F, for about 12 minutes. The pizza sagged at the side edges at the beginning, so it is something I will have to work on in my future attempts to make a better take-and-bake pizza. Maybe I can even get a few Pactiv trays to play around with.

The photos below show the finished Lehmann “take-and-bake” pizza. This is one of those cases where the photo belies the actual results. The pizza was better than the photos indicate. The finished pizza was quite delicious, with a thin, tasty crust, good crust color (top and bottom), and a reasonably decent crumb. It was also very chewy at the rim and crispy. If anything, the crust was too thin and crispy and, for me, a bit too chewy, and quite different overall from the normal Lehmann NY style pizzas I have made. However, in due course I hope to improve the formulation to deal with these issues. What I did learn, however, is that it is possible to make unbaked skins and refrigerate them for at least a day before using them, and possibly longer, and also to make an unbaked, fully-dressed pizza using such a skin that can travel to another location for baking in a standard home oven, at normal oven temperatures, and without requiring a pizza stone/tiles or a peel. More work needs to be done but that sounds pretty good to me for a start.

Peter

  What kind of cheese did you use and did you use a screen or pan?
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on January 19, 2006, 07:27:05 AM
Wally,

Nice job. The pizza looks great.

I recently posted a reply on using a food processor to knead dough for a NY style. In case you haven't seen it, it is at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2189.0.html. I have also posted one or more replies on the subject on this thread relative to a Lehmann dough.

I notice what appears to be a Silpat or Matfer silicone baking sheet. I assume you use it solely as a kneading pad and to take advantage of the markings along the edge to measure your pizza. Is that correct?

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on January 19, 2006, 07:50:40 AM
Rocky,

I didn't use either a pizza screen or pan. The unbaked pizza sat on top of the round sheet of parchment paper, which in turn sat on the round cardboard form. I shuffled both the pizza and parchment paper into the oven (directly onto the middle rack) and withdrew the cardboard form. The pizza baked entirely on the parchment paper. I was surprised to discover that the parchment paper had little effect on the browning of the bottom of the crust. I used the cardboard form to help remove the baked pizza from the oven, as is intended.

It occurred to me that I could have used a pizza screen in lieu of the parchment paper/cardboard form arrangement. If I had done so, I would have removed the screen as soon as the pizza firmed up so that I could more closely replicate the way that take-bake-pizzas are baked in a home oven. Of course, I could also have used a standard peel in lieu of the parchment paper/cardboard form arrangement. However, I was trying to get the full take-and-bake experience. In retrospect, even if I had used a peel, I might have kept the parchment paper because it seemed to provide some support, albeit minimal, for the unbaked pizza.

There are few take-and-bake places near me here in Texas, at least the "pure" take-and-bake places like Papa Murphy's, which is the largest of the lot. If I come across one not too far from home, I may give their take-and-bake pie a try. 

The cheese I used for my take-and-bake pizza was a shredded Dragone whole-milk, low-moisture mozzarella cheese.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Buffalo on January 19, 2006, 09:28:43 AM
Good Morning Pete-zza;
I am very interested in your experiments with the take and bake pizza.  Your sample photo shows a great looking pizza.  Will you share your reformulated Lehmann recipe, or is it in too early an experimental stage?  Did the bottom brown nicely using the parchment paper?  I am interested in all the process steps you are willing to share in this experiment.
Thank You
Buffalo
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on January 19, 2006, 11:54:57 AM
Buffalo,

I intentionally did not post the formulation I used because I felt that it would be premature, and I was not entirely satisfied with it. I might mention, however, that reformulating the Lehmann dough was not new with me. For example, see http://www.pmq.com/cgi-bin/tt/index.cgi/noframes/read/8346. Also, if you go to the PMQ RECIPE BANK at http://www.pmq.com/recipe/view_category.php?id=2, at pages 1 and 2, you will see a couple more Lehmann take-and-bake dough formulations. My version was quite a bit different in that I used a yeasted version rather than one using a different leavening system (such as WRISE), plus I made other changes.

By way of background, I discovered that take-and-bake pizzas can be quite finicky. One of the biggest problems that take-and-bake operators seem to have is coming up with an unbaked fully-dressed pizza that can tolerate a fair amount of "abuse" by the consumer. This includes leaving an unbaked pizza in the back seat of a car for a few hours in the middle of summer, leaving the unbaked pizza in the refrigerator or on a kitchen counter too long before baking, baking the pizza when the dough is too cold (the typical instructions for baking even suggest checking the pizza for bubbling during the first few minutes of baking, and puncturing them with a fork if they appear), or freezing the pizza instead of baking it. Whatever dough is used, it must take these possibilities into account. Also, take-and-bake doughs often have short fermentation times, so the finished crust may not have as much flavor as a typical pizzeria crust.

From my reading, I learned that take-and-bake pizzas are specially adapted to address all or most of the above concerns. For example, take-and-bake doughs usually use high-gluten flour, which seems to best tolerate normal customer abuse; small amounts of yeast, which prevents overfermentation of the dough for its normal shelf life and minimizes gassiness in the dough; fairly high levels of sugar, to feed the yeast over its intended shelf life and to provide sugar for crust browning purposes in a normal home oven; and fairly thick pizza sauces, to prevent leaching of water from the sauce into the dough during transport of the pizza and/or if the dough sits around too long before baking. Some take-and-bake pizza doughs, especially those from big firms that specialize in that style, also use special leavening agents (e.g., WRISE) that take effect only when the pizza is in the oven being baked. The use of a leavening agent is somewhat like a belt-and-suspenders approach in the event the dough suffers from improper customer handling. It appears that many independents just alter their existing formulations to adapt them to a take-and-bake application. I decided on the latter approach with the Lehmann dough formulation.

To give you an idea of the sequence I used to make the take-and-bake pizza, I have included photos below of 1) the cardboard form I used, 2) the cardboard form/parchment paper combination, 3) the undressed pizza skin on top of the cardboard form/parchment combination (as it went into the refrigerator), and 4) the dressed pizza skin (as it sat on my countertop for about an hour before baking--to simulate travel time from one point to another).

As time permits, I plan to focus mainly on the formulation, since that is more important at this point than the carrier used (a tray or cardboard/parchment paper arrangement).

Although I didn't take a photo of the bottom of a pizza slice, it was essentially the same color of the top crust.

Peter

EDIT (11/18/15): For an updated link to the PMQ take-and-bake doughs, see the two pages starting at http://www.pmq.com/Recipe-Bank/?additionalinfo=Pizza+Dough&areaname=&searchcustomdata= (http://www.pmq.com/Recipe-Bank/?additionalinfo=Pizza+Dough&areaname=&searchcustomdata=)
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Buffalo on January 19, 2006, 12:58:04 PM
Pete-zza;
Thanks very much for your quick response.  I look forward to your progress updates.
Buffalo ;D
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: chiguy on January 19, 2006, 01:17:14 PM
 Hi Peter,
 I checked the recipe Leahman posted for TAKE N BAKE at PMQ and noticed a discrepancy in the finished dough temperature. The formula states, Water: 58-63%,(Water temperture should be adjusted to give a finished dough temperature of 75-80F.
Then in the next paragraph it states the finished dough temperature should be 80-85F?? This temperature difference will obviously make a difference, especially with this type of pizza.
 I am looking through a book i recieved from General Mills that states finished dough temperatures for Take n Bake dough should be between(72-80F).

 During a visit to a friend last year i was able to try PaPa Murphy's, here is what i noticed. The sauce is not sauce, it is almost straight paste. Very thick like brick mortar. It was applied with a triangle knife, something i have never seen at a kitchen store. If i had to take a guess on the type of flour i would say it was probably a low quality bread flour. The pizza also noticably had alot of oil, it was definetly present on the pallet. The cheese was a blend, with very little mozzarella present. I would guess the water to be just under 60%, i say this because the dough did not seem over extensible and the way the kids were able to handle it. The dough appeared to be placed in a pizza press, although it was not present in the front of the shop. If you decide to take one and bake one, make it a small and have a back up plan. It is not a very good pizza in my opinion. I do feel Take N Bake is still a good concept and there is alot of room for improvement with this franchise and new concepts for the future.   Chiguy
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Wallman on January 19, 2006, 02:04:08 PM
Peter,
I'll check out your post again. I think I got a little carried away with the "pulse" button.  :)

I do indeed use a silcon pastry mat for shaping the dough, it came from Sur la Table and is designed for making pies and tarts.   The mat has linear measurements on the sides and diameter measurements, circles up to 12 inches, in the middle (under the pizza skin in the photo).  Lightly floured it makes a convenient work surface.  Plus clean up is easier, I just rinse it off in the sink. You could cook on it if you had a really big cookie sheet.

I also have some smaller Silpat (and knock-off brand) baking sheets that I use for cookies, etc.  They are very handy for baking. Here's a link if anybody wants one for themselves.

http://www.surlatable.com/common/products/product_details.cfm?PRRFNBR=11618
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on January 19, 2006, 02:09:45 PM
chiguy,

You have a sharp eye. I saw the same discrepancy and looked into it, for the same reason that you were suspicious. Judging from this post at the PMQ Think Tank, it looks like 80-85 degrees F is the correct range: http://www.pmq.com/cgi-bin/tt/index.cgi/noframes/read/23323. I think that range is used to be sure that the gluten in the dough relaxes enough to permit skins to be made more easily, especially if a strong flour is used. Tom usually recommends a flour with 13-14.5% protein.

Papa Murphy's is often given more credit for its marketing than for the quality of its take-and-bake pizzas. So I am not surprised to hear your opinion on Papa Murphy's pizza. I also suspected that the hydration was lower than what I used the other day. I used 63%. I will lower it the next time.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: chiguy on January 19, 2006, 04:48:29 PM
 Hi Peter,
 I do know GeneralMills definetly says use 72-80F as a finished dough temp. So to play it safe i would tend to be at 80F, right in the middle. I guess the flour could be HighGluten judging by it's haneling ability but it certainly did not reflect in the finished crust. Like i said the water seemed a bit lower than 60%, i think they make up for the lower hydration with the addition of oil 3-5% according to Leahman recipe. I assume the balance of the water and oil % they use, has alot to do with the handeling and keeping quality of the pizza? The oil definetly has a presence in the finished crust and gives it a very tender bite, i never detected olive oil though.  chiguy
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on January 19, 2006, 07:52:20 PM
chiguy,

Tom Lehmann was asked a question about take-and-bake pizza doughs and, as part of his answer, he said the following about the oil:

As for the increased oil content,...... it helps to prevent/impede the migration of moisture from the sauce into the dough, it provides for a better flavor due to the flavor of the oil (if using a flavored oil such as olive oil), it also improves the mouthfeel of the crust, and tends to give it a shorter (tender), more crispy texture. Very low or no oil will give the crust a hard, crispy texture. And lastly, people like fat.

While Tom didn't mention it, I suspect that the increased levels of oil will also help make the dough more extensible, especially if a strong flour is used to make the take-and-bake dough.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on January 24, 2006, 10:41:02 AM
Fellow member Buffalo requested today on another thread that I post a Lehmann dough formulation for a 30-inch pizza. For Buffalo and anyone else with the wherewithal to make such a size, I have posted the 30-inch dough formulation below. I elected to use a thickness factor of 0.105 to make the dough a little bit thicker and possibly a bit easier to handle when being opened up to 30 inches. I'd love to see someone give the 30-incher a try just to see if the formulation scales up well to that size. I know that there is such a thing as a 30-inch screen--as I discovered recently when I researched the matter--so there is at least the possibility of using a screen, even if it is just a mechanism to get the pizza into the oven (and possibly later transferred off of the screen directly onto the stone of a deck oven).

Buffalo's 30-inch Lehmann NY Style Dough Formulation
100%, High-gluten flour (KASL), 44.76 oz./2.80 lbs. (1256.55 g.)
63%, Water, 28.17 oz./1.76 lbs. (798.56 g.), a bit over 3 1/3 c.
1%, Oil, 0.45 oz. (12.68 g.), a bit less than 2 3/4 t.
1.75%, Salt, 0.78 oz. (22.18 g.), a bit less than 4 t.
0.25%, Instant dry yeast (IDY), 0.11 oz. (3.17 g.), a bit over 1 t.
Total dough weight = 74.22 oz. (2104.14 g.)
Thickness factor (TF) = 0.105

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: abc on January 29, 2006, 11:10:14 AM
30" pizza?  I take it someone has access to a commercial oven.  But if this is going to be done in the home, what you got at home?
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Milanocookies56 on February 01, 2006, 06:28:52 PM
Tonight I made two pizzas using the Lehmann 16 inch recipe split in half with two dough balls so each pizza was roughly 8 inches
Half cheese half diced pepperoni
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on February 01, 2006, 07:10:52 PM
Milanocookies56,

Very nice. How did they taste?

Was there a particular reason for picking 8 inches for the size of your pizzas? I ask this question because the amount of dough for a 16-inch pizza will make two roughly 12-inch pizzas with the same crust thickness as the 16-inch. Using half of the dough for an 8-inch pizza will yield a crust that is about double the thickness of the 16-inch. In other words, there is not a direct linear correlation between the 16- and 8-inch sizes. Of course, there is nothing wrong with making 8-inch pizzas if that is what you were striving for. They should still taste great.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Milanocookies56 on February 01, 2006, 07:21:47 PM
Oh well then I guess they were 12 because I just split the dough in half but they tasted great on the second one I wish I would have a put it on the screen for five mintues and the stone for 2 but i just kept it on the screen the whole 7 the bottom was browned but i prefer mine a little browner
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Wallman on February 14, 2006, 09:12:10 PM
I found using the screen/stone method with Pete's Tom L. NY style dough worked very well. I preheated my oven to 550 for an hour and baked the pizza on a 16 inch screen for around 5 minutes. I then transfered the pizza to my tiles on the bottom rack.  As soon as the pizza hit the tiles the cheese started to bubble and you could hear the dough cooking.  After 2 - 3 minutes the bottom of the pizza had a nice char.  I cooked five pizzas this Saturday for my birthday and they came out great.  The last couple pizzas took a bit longer as the oven cooled down from use, so just keep an eye on your pizzas if you're doing more than one or two. Unfortunately all my guests ate them before I could take pictures.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on February 19, 2006, 04:10:06 PM
The photos below show the results of my latest undertaking to make a take-and-bake version of the Lehmann NY style dough. What I have been trying to accomplish along these lines is to 1) produce a take-and-bake pre-formed Lehmann dough skin, and even a fully dressed skin, at least one day, and possibly two or three days, before baking; and 2) bake the pizza in a standard home oven, on the middle oven rack position, at around 425 degrees F, for about 10-15 minutes, without the need for a stone/tiles or pizza peel.

At this point, I would also prefer not to use a special leavening system such as WRISE, as is frequently used by commercial take-and-bake operators to insure that the dough rises sufficiently in the oven in the event consumers “abuse” the pizzas by failing to use them properly and in accordance with the recommended handling and baking procedures.  (As background for this subject, readers may wish to refer to Replies 343, 347, 349 and 355 in this thread, as well as intervening posts.)

My experience to date is that take-and-bake pizzas based on a yeast-leavened dough tend to bake up crispier than most pizzas. From what I have read, this seems to be inherent in a lot of take-and-bake pizzas, particularly if a product like WRISE is not used. Also, the manner in which the doughs are made for this style of pizza, and particularly the use of short fermentation times, tends to preclude achieving pronounced flavors in the crust. I have yet to find a good solution for the first problem without resorting to the use of a product like WRISE, but the second problem seems to have a solution in the form of a simple preferment using only commercial yeast. In this vein, Tom Lehmann himself has recommended use of a short-term (3-4 hours) room-temperature fermented sponge (technically more like a biga, in my view) that is incorporated into the final dough before pre-forming the dough into a skin and cold fermenting it for next day use (usually).

Armed with what I have learned to date about take-and-bake pizzas, I came up with the following formulation for a 16-inch Lehmann NY style take-and-bake dough--which includes in the quantities specified what I will refer to as the “biga”:

Take-and-Bake Formulation for 16-Inch Lehmann NY Style Dough
100%, Flour (King Arthur Sir Lancelot high-gluten flour), 13.02 oz. (368.83 g.)
63%, Water, 8.20 oz. (232.36 g.)
3%, Oil, 0.39 oz. (11.06 g.), 2 3/8 t. (Note: I used 80% canola, or around 2 t., and 20% olive oil, or around 1/2 t.)
1.75%, Salt, 0.23 oz. (6.45 g.), a bit over 1 1/8 t.
0.25%, Instant dry yeast (IDY), 0.03 oz. (0.92 g.), a bit less than 1/3 t.
2%, Sugar, 0.26 oz. (7.38 g.), about 1 7/8 t.
Total dough weight (for one 16-inch pizza) = 22.12 oz. (627.01 g.)
Thickness Factor (TF) = 0.11

Before discussing the biga, I will mention as additional background information that take-and-bake dough skins tend to use low yeast levels (to achieve slow fermentation and to prevent gassiness in the dough), and higher than normal sugar levels (mainly for crust color purposes) and oil levels (mainly for softness and tenderness in the crust). In my case, I used elevated sugar and oil levels and I also increased the thickness of the dough, from the usual 0.10-0.105 thickness factor, to 0.11, in an attempt to reduce the level of crispiness in the crust by using a slightly thicker dough.

To make the biga, I took 55% of the flour and 55% of the water (by weight) called for in the above formulation, added all of the yeast, and mixed and kneaded them together into a dough that had a texture and consistency similar to the final dough. I used my KitchenAid stand mixer, but any mixing technique can be used. In my case, I used water at around 120 degrees F to achieve a relatively warm dough, at around 85 degrees F, to allow for good fermentation in my kitchen at a temperature of around 64 degrees F. I allowed the dough to remain, covered, at room temperature for around 4-5 hours. The formulation for the biga itself can be characterized as follows:

Biga Formulation
Flour, 7.16 oz. (203.01 g.), 1 1/2 c. plus 3 T. plus 1 t.
Water (at 120 degree F), 4.51 oz. (127.86 g.), a bit less than 5/8 c.
Yeast (IDY), 0.03 oz. (0.92 g.), a bit less than 1/3 t.

After the 4-5 hour fermentation, I incorporated the biga with the rest of the dough ingredients. The salt was first dissolved in the remaining water (cool out of the refrigerator), along with the sugar, and the biga was added along with the remaining flour (gradually). The oil was added after all of the other ingredients had formed a rough ball, using the stir and 1 speeds. The dough was then kneaded in the usual fashion for about 5-6 minutes at #2 speed. For convenience, the remaining quantities of flour and water that were combined with the biga can be recited as follows:

Remaining Flour and Water Quantities
Flour, 5.86 oz. (165.82 g.), 1 1/3 c. plus 1 T. plus 1 t.
Water (cool out of the refrigerator), 3.69 oz. (104.50 g.), between 3/8 and 1/2 c.

Once the dough was finished, it was allowed to rest, covered, for 30 minutes at room temperature. It was then shaped and stretched into a 16-inch skin. The dough had a fair amount of elasticity, but after allowing it to rest for a minute or two a few times, the dough did reach the desired 16-inch diameter. The skin was prepared for refrigeration in the manner previously described in the abovereferenced posts, using the cardboard/parchment paper/plastic wrap arrangement previously shown and described.

The pre-formed skin was kept under refrigeration for about 24 hours. It was then dressed in a simple pepperoni style and, to simulate travel from a take-and-bake operation to a consumer’s home, I allowed the fully dressed pizza to sit at room temperature, covered, for about an hour. I might mention that I used a fairly thick sauce--as is typically recommended--to prevent water in the sauce from migrating into the dough during the one-hour wait. As added insurance, I had also pre-coated the undressed skin with a bit of olive oil before putting the sauce down. The pizza was baked on the center oven rack position, on the parchment paper, at a preheated 425 degrees F, for about a total of 15 minutes.

I would describe the latest take-and-bake pizza as the best of the take-and-bake pizzas I have made to date. The crust was chewy and had exceptionally good flavor--almost like a baguette bread flavor--and decent coloration. I was especially surprised by the crust flavor, especially since the dough had remained in the refrigerator for only 24 hours. The crust was still crispier than what I have been looking for--with only modest airiness in the rim--despite the relatively high 63% hydration level. I believe that this result might be attributed to reduced oven spring at 425 degrees F on an oven rack without a preheated stone/tiles. I suspect this is why a product like WRISE is often used.

I believe I can improve the take-and-bake product further, and I have several ideas that I plan to incorporate into my next attempt. To the extent that they advance the process, I will report the results.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: abc on February 20, 2006, 12:45:25 PM
This is the Lehmann 16" using KingArthur's HIGluten flour.  I haven't used it in a few yrs, and this is the first time I tried the Lehmann with the KA HiG flour.  I'm very impressed with it.  Compared to my previous flour, which is a local 'Jewish' HiG flour (which was good), the KA HiG has more flour flavor, and has more of a crackle like malt for a bagel.  I would say that the simple 'window pane' test that I did out of curiosity was more impressive too.  I bought a 50lb bag with 15.00 shipping from DutchValley foods as mentioned in another thread.  Comes out to about 3.00 per 5lb bag for me, I believe.

Some quick pics, 24 hr rise, 1 final room temp rest.  Fresh tomatoes pulsed and seasoned 2hrs ahead of use, periodically pour out settled water.  Fresh basil, some low moisture whole milk Pollyo, then some local 'fresh' mozz $5/1lb ball, sliced peperroni, some onions.

Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: abc on February 26, 2006, 11:02:11 AM
After about 6 months I got the urge to try a 18", being that I'm working with KA HI.G flour after a few yrs w/ it and having more experience with the Lehmann dough.

I gave it a 2day+ fridge rise.

Pies were finished with NINA tomatoes just pulsed and seasoned, then Polly-o low moisture whole milk from loaf.  Pepperoni and onion.  Simple stuff, just wanted to see how my oven would handle it because 6 months earlier i had some problems with heating.  This time I heated the stone in a middle rack for 1hr, then moved it down to the oven floor.  I think this made a difference.  I think the longer rise gave better char too.

Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: foodblogger on February 26, 2006, 11:41:45 AM
Wow that looks delicious.  I really like how the tips of the onions blackened.  I bet that tasted amazing.  Smoky parts, sweet parts, juicy parts, all contrasting.  I also like the browning you got on the crust.  Was the 18 inch size more difficult to handle as in getting it in and out of the oven etc?  After I get beyond a certain size it gets iffy.  I need a bigger pizza stone I guess.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on February 26, 2006, 12:57:19 PM
foodblogger,

It would be nice to have a really large stone, but you can use an 18-inch pizza screen along with a smaller stone. This is what I do since I don't have an 18+ inch stone and I can't tile my oven shelf to get that size without having to have some of the tiles cut to fit. What I do is bake the pizza on the screen on an upper shelf of the oven and when the pizza crust sets and the pizza is firm and the crust starts to turn brown (after about 5-6 minutes), I shift the pizza off of the screen onto my 1-hour preheated stone at the lowest oven rack position to finish baking and to get better bottom crust browning. At this point it doesn't matter that the pizza is bigger than the stone and overlaps it. Another nice thing about using the screen is that you don't have to worry about navigating the 18-inch pizza from a peel onto the stone or tiles.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: foodblogger on February 26, 2006, 02:44:33 PM
Pete-
That is an excellent tip and I have already set the wheels in motion for me to be able to try it out.  I ordered an 18 inch like 3 weeks ago and it hasn't come in yet.  Grumble Grumble Grumble. 
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: abc on February 26, 2006, 05:24:18 PM
2 mor pics of 1 left over slice.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: abc on February 26, 2006, 05:35:29 PM
Wow that looks delicious.  I really like how the tips of the onions blackened.  I bet that tasted amazing.  Smoky parts, sweet parts, juicy parts, all contrasting.  I also like the browning you got on the crust.  Was the 18 inch size more difficult to handle as in getting it in and out of the oven etc?  After I get beyond a certain size it gets iffy.  I need a bigger pizza stone I guess.

thanks.  i too like the charred onion tips.  i've been fortunate to have been able to achieve that for a while when i add onions as a topping.

yes the charring on the crust i wasn't previously able to achieve with the 18" inch, only the 16"... my next test is a few more times with a 2+ day rise with KA flour to see if this is better than a 1 day rise.  I'm really liking the use of KA flour again.  The flour of the crust, with a few occasional bites being subtly bitter due to the rustic charring is exactly how it is in the decent local 5 borough NYC pizza places (I find that at least 2/5 places don't have an intense enough flame and when you buy a whole pie, it's not charred, but the same pie is fine when you order 1 or 2 slices from their counter and they reheat it).

it was sickeningly tasty today as a cold pizza.  naturally sweet savory red onions, fresh bright sauce (still looking to make it more zesty) just a tad of pepperoni, fresh cheese, hint of oregano, basil, garlic... flavorful crust tast.

Yes, 18" was more difficult.  I'm finding the KA flour to be very extensible... I may have to try reducing the water by 2 or 3 pct... i couldn't stretch it much without bracing it on the counter.

I also parbake these days, and with this 18" I had to open my oven a few times  and being that I waited the for the oven to get back to 550degrees, it slowed the process down measurably.   I should say I tried.  avg. temps were probably 510degrees.  When I make the 16" pies I think I avg. 540%.

I use a 16" round stone... I used the 18" screen to parbake, then a few min w/o the screen, then the final min. with a screen again.  I generally like dough to stone direct contact as much as possible.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on February 26, 2006, 06:05:28 PM
abc,

I assume when you say "parbake" you mean that you bake the skin on the pizza screen for a specified period, then dress it, and finish baking the pizza. Is that correct? Also, at which oven rack position do you start the prebake and how do you thereafter move the pizza around?

As far as extensibility is concerned, lowering the hydration is a good way to go without giving up too much in the way of an open crumb. You might also use cooler water. When I first started making the Lehmann doughs, I temperature adjusted the water to get a finished dough temperature of around 80-85 degrees F, which is what Tom Lehmann specified in his dough formulation. It took me a long time to figure out that my refrigerator operated warmer than a commercial cooler and that my doughs were undergoing a faster fermentation than if I were using a commercial cooler. Now I use cooler water and shoot for a finished dough temperature of around 75 degrees F to get the fermentation process back in line. Another way to do it would be to use the 80-85 degrees target but use less yeast.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: scott r on February 27, 2006, 02:03:42 AM
Peter,  I had to do a pizza party at a relatives place this weekend with a 550 degree oven.  I have a bag of General Mills Full Strength flour that I haven't used in a while, so I decided to try a lehmann recipe with it.  I used your standard 63% hydration recipe, and yes....... IDY.  I recently found a one pound bag of Fleischman's IDY for two bucks at a restaraunt supply store so I picked it up.  I just wanted to let you know that the pies turned out excellent without any need for modification to the recipe because of the change in the type of flour.  I received a  comment that the pizza was just like what a friend had on a recent trip to NYC.

Thanks for the awesome recipe!
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on February 27, 2006, 10:59:44 AM
Thank you, scott, but the credit should really go to Tom Lehmann. It is his formulation and all I did was to act as a translator to convert it to home use. It was even his writings that taught me how to do that, plus a whole lot more.

Our members may not know that Tom is a member of our forum, albeit a dormant one. As noted at the following PMQ Think Tank thread, forum member pftaylor tried to engage Tom further in the activities at our forum by posting at the Think Tank: http://www.pmq.com/cgi-bin/tt/index.cgi/noframes/read/26981. After all of the things I have done to the basic Lehmann dough formulation, I was fearful that I would have to enter a witness protection program if Tom actually saw what I did to his dough formulation.

BTW, for those not familiar with the General Mills Full Strength flour that scott used, it is basically a bread flour with around 12.6% protein. I don't believe it is a flour available at retail, and I would guess that it comes in a 50-lb. bag.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on March 20, 2006, 06:55:59 AM
A while back, at Reply 297 at page 15 of this thread (at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.280.html), I described an experiment in which I made and baked a 9” Lehmann NY style pizza on a preheated bed of rocks. Pleased with the results, I wondered whether it would be feasible to make a much larger pizza using the same approach. Recently I bought an inexpensive Wilton 15 3/4” perforated pizza pan and decided to test the notion of a much larger pizza, in this case a 15” pizza. I used the standard Lehmann NY style dough formulation, as adapted to the 15” size and a thickness factor (TF) of 0.105. The final formulation I used was as follows:

100%, High-gluten flour (KASL), 11.19 oz. (316.89 g.), 2 1/2 c. plus 1 T. plus 2 t.
63%, Water, 7.04 oz. (199.64 g.), 7/8 c.
1.75%, Salt, 0.20 oz. (5.55 g.), 1 t.
0.25%, Instant dry yeast (IDY), 0.03 oz. (0.79 g.), a bit more than 1/4 t.
1%, Oil, 0.11 oz. (3.17 g.), a bit more than 5/8 t.
Total dough weight = 18.56 oz. (526.03 g.)
Thickness factor (TF) = 0.105
Note: All measurements are U.S./metric standard

To make the dough, I used my KitchenAid stand mixer and the following sequencing of ingredients: Water, salt (dissolved in the water), flour/IDY mixture (added gradually at "stir" speed), and oil. The oil was added when the other ingredients formed a rough dough ball, and the dough was kneaded for about 5 minutes more at 2 speed. Once made, the dough was put in the refrigerator in a metal container for a total of almost 3 days, following which the dough was removed from the refrigerator and allowed to warm up (covered with a sheet of plastic wrap) for about 2 hours at room temperature. The dough was then shaped and stretched into a 15” skin (on a lightly floured wood peel). The dough was very extensible but still manageable despite the roughly 3 days of fermentation.

The pizza was dressed with a simple tomato sauce (Stanislaus Tomato Magic), shredded Grande whole-milk mozzarella cheese, Margherita pepperoni slices, and dried oregano. The dressed pizza was deposited onto the bed of rocks in the 15 3/4” perforated pizza pan which had been preheated for about an hour at around 500-550 degrees F. The pizza was allowed to bake on the bed of rocks for about 5-6 minutes, whereupon the pizza was transferred off of the bed of rocks to an upper oven rack position where the pizza was subjected to direct top heat from the broiler element, which had been turned on about 5 minutes into the bake cycle. The pizza remained under the broiler for about a minute or two, so as to provide better top crust browning.

The photos below show the rock/pan arrangement and the finished product. I thought the pizza turned out very well. The crust was chewy and soft, with decent oven spring and a bit of crispiness at the rim. The crust away from the rim was softer and less crispy than usual, but the pizza was very tasty and enjoyable nonetheless. As might be expected after 3 days of fermentation, the finished crust had good flavor and texture. It was a nice departure from the usual Lehmann pizzas baked on a pizza stone. I also confirmed that it is possible to make a decent sized pizza on a bed of rocks. So, if someone had a perforated (or even a non-perforated) pizza pan and can round up enough clean (washed and dried) rocks to cover the entire bottom of the pan, it is possible to make a decent pizza without the need for a pizza stone or tiles. I’m not a camper, but I wonder whether the approach might be adapted to a campfire setting. According to Evelyne Slomon, the precursors to pizzas were baked on stones in Neolithic times (http://www.pmq.com/cgi-bin/tt/index.cgi/noframes/read/27750) :chef:.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on March 20, 2006, 07:13:34 AM
And the pie..

Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on March 20, 2006, 07:24:29 AM
And a slice...

Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: PizzaBrasil on March 20, 2006, 12:37:04 PM
Peter:

Sorry if I miss the information. What do you use to support your dressed pizza over the rocks bed? A screen? A perforated disk?.
We could expect to obtain punctual hot points (browned ones) in the bottom of the dough. Did not this happen?
Thanks

Luis
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on March 20, 2006, 01:00:13 PM
Luis,

I did not use a screen or disk. I just slid the dressed pizza off of the peel (wood) directly onto the bed of rocks. I loaded the pizza onto the bed of rocks just like I would on a pizza stone.

I tried to make a uniform layer of rocks in the pan and to crowd them together so that the dough wouldn't get punctured or sag. I also tried to use mostly round, smooth rocks as much as I could. The rocks do make indentations in the bottom of the dough, as you will note from the slice photo above. I should have taken a photo of the bottom, but where the rocks touched the dough, the crust was darker than the surrounding area. The whole experiment was more for fun but I also learn from such experiments. It was not intended as a novelty pizza. I had a leftover slice of the pizza for lunch today and it was excellent. I make so many of the standard Lehmann pizzas that once in a while I like to try to get a somewhat different style out of the same dough, which the heated bed of rocks provides.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on March 23, 2006, 09:58:23 AM
As regular readers of this thread are aware, the basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation does not call for any sugar. The reason for this is to prevent or minimize premature or excessive browning of the crust bottom because of direct physical contact of the dough with a very hot oven stone surface. Tom Lehmann will often recommend using sugar if the dough is to be held for more than say, 72 hours, on the theory that there has been depletion of the natural sugars extracted from the flour and that additional sugar will be needed to promote crust coloration.

Recently, in answer to a question posed to Tom on the NY style, he indicated that it was permissible to use around 2% sugar in the dough formulation if the pizza is to be baked in an impingement or infrared oven rather than on a deck. The purpose in this case would be for crust color development. I suspect that most of our members/readers are using home ovens or even wood- or gas-fired ovens, but I mention the above in the event there are members/readers using the basic Lehmann formulation with impingement or infrared ovens.

I suspect that those using pizza screens or disks in home ovens will also be able to incorporate a bit of sugar (e.g., 1-2%) in  the dough because the screen or disk will shield the pizza from very high temperatures, even if the screen/disk with the pizza on it is placed directly on a very hot stone surface.

I might also add that the sugar doesn't have to be ordinary table sugar (sucrose). It can be virtually any form of sugar including honey, non-diastatic malt syrup, and the like. However, if something like honey is used, it will be necessary to increase the amount of honey by about 20% on a weight basis to get the equivalent sweetness to table sugar. This is because honey includes about 20% water. Technically, one should also reduce the amount of water in the formulation to adjust for the water in the honey, but at the single-pizza level it will usually be quite small, perhaps less than half a teaspoon when used at 2% for a 16-inch pizza.

Peter

Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Wallman on April 03, 2006, 12:50:20 PM
This Saturday I made 4 Lehmann NY-style pizzas using the basic 63% hydration recipe using KASL flour.  Since I mixed the dough on Tuesday and planned to let it rise for 4 days in the fridge I added a little sugar per the recommendation above.  The pies were great, in fact the best Lehmann crust to-date.  I think the longer rise really helped intensify the flavor of the crust and the sugar added a very tiny bit of sweetness.  I let the dough warm up for about 3 hours rest on the counter before shaping. The dough was easy to handle and very extensible. I'll post pictures later.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Wallman on April 03, 2006, 10:07:08 PM
Here are two Lehmann long-rise (4 day) dough balls after warming on the counter for about 3 hours.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Wallman on April 03, 2006, 10:15:37 PM
Here are two cooked long-rise Lehmann pizzas.  They were baked on a screen and finished on tiles  The first is prosciutto di parma, sauted peppers and onions and fresh mozz.   The second is mushrooms, sauted peppers and onions and a mix of Polly-O whole milk and Kraft part-skim mozz.  As you can see, there is a strange hole in the second pizza.  I got a little carried away on the topping and the pie tore leaving a sticky mess on the screen (third photo).  Still, the pizza tasted good!  The rule less is more still plays!
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on April 03, 2006, 10:41:20 PM
Wally,

From what I have read from pizza operators who post on the PMQ Think Tank, it is best not to load down the center of the pizza. To begin with, the center is often the thinnest part of the dough. It's also often the last part of the pizza to cook and when things melt the direction of the juices and melting cheeses, floating pepperoni, etc., is toward the center of the pie. As a result of all these forces, the center of the pizza can get pretty messy and stick to a screen and be difficult to dislodge using a metal peel or other tool. Having experienced this phenomenon myself, I am now careful not to have the dough in the middle too thin and I keep the toppings away from dead center. It's also important to dress the pizza quickly before the sauce has a chance to migrate into the dough. If that happens at the center, there is an increased risk of the pizza sticking to the screen.

The pizzas look great notwithstanding the minor mishap with the second pizza. From the photos you have posted on the Lehmann pizzas, your results seem to be getting better with each pizza. Congratulations.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Wallman on April 03, 2006, 10:49:19 PM
Thanks for the kind words Pete. I must say, I owe most of my success to your suggestions!  I was really impressed how good the pizza tasted after 4 days in the fridge.  The long-rise really made the dough taste good.  I had been making dough one or two days in advance, but I think I will back up to three or four days.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on April 04, 2006, 11:49:29 AM
Wally,

I'd like to make a couple of collateral points in respect of your extending the shelf life of your Lehmann dough by adding a bit of sugar to it. It is true that using a bit of sugar can extend the utilization of the dough but there is a practical limit to doing this and you can't simply add more and more sugar hoping to push the dough out farther and farther. The reason for this is that there are enzymes in the dough, mainly protease enzymes, that act during the fermentation of the dough to soften the gluten. At some point, the gluten will become so soft, and water can be released from the dough, that you can end up with a gummy and slack dough that will not bake well in the oven.

In theory, you could slow down the action of the protease enzymes by adding more salt, which degrades protease enzyme performance, but the Lehmann formulation already has 1.75% salt in it, which is fairly substantial. That is still less than the 2.5-3% levels common in room-temperature fermented Neapolitan doughs, but it is still high nonetheless. I would rather use less yeast, colder water and/or a lower hydration, along with a bit of sugar for insurance, to achieve a longer shelf life for the Lehmann dough. Even then, it's possible that you won't get an accompanying increase in flavor, especially if the biochemical activity doesn't result in materially more flavor-enhancing byproducts of fermentation. In other words, you could end up with an "older" dough but not a better tasting crust.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Wallman on April 04, 2006, 04:20:37 PM
Interesting points Pete. It is facinating the the lower yeast makes the dough better.  I definitely don't want old, tasteless dough.  I'm going to try again with a 3-4 day cold rise, and see how it comes out.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: JF_Aidan_Pryde on April 05, 2006, 09:12:31 AM
Pete,
I experienced the enzymes breaking down the dough problem many times. After leaving a preferment dough in the fridge for almost a week, it lost all strength and pulled like taffy once it hit room temperature. It's a complete useless mess. Other than throwing it out, the only way to salvage the dough is to use it as a starter. But make sure you use a disproportionate amount of fresh flour and water, or else it will just make more taffy like dough.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Wallman on April 05, 2006, 11:39:26 AM
In thinking about the softness of the dough after 4 days, I'd say I may have been close but I was definitely not over the edge.  The dough was pretty soft and very extensible, but not taffy-like or hard to handle. I was able to toss it without any problem.  Now, I don't think I would go longer than 4 days because as you can see from the photos of the dough, the balls had risen pretty high (remember they had been on the counter for at least 3 hours at about 70-75 F room temp.) and I can easily see how they could get too soft.  However, the flavor, to my palate, was very good at 4 days.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on April 05, 2006, 08:03:23 PM
James,

I thought you might be interested in knowing that within the pizza industry in the U.S., a common practice among pizza operators for “old” dough, aka “scrap”, is to incorporate it into a new dough at a rate of 15-25%, with 15% being considered “safe”. If the dough has been refrigerated for its entire fermentation, for example, for a few days, and hasn’t “blown” (overfermented), then the 25% figure should work. If the dough has spent a fair amount of time at room temperature, then 15% is perhaps the better figure to use. If the dough has “blown”, even 15% may be too high. But it should still work and add a lot of flavor to the new dough. When I used to do this sort of thing with old dough, I used to refer to the process as “resuscitation” since the dough was just about on its deathbed.

If the above advice is followed for a Lehmann dough, which has only a small amount of yeast to begin with, then it may be prudent to use the normal amount of yeast in the “new” dough. This is one of those cases where you may have to do some experimenting. Other doughs with different formulations may require other kinds of adjustments.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on May 24, 2006, 09:00:30 PM
Recently, with temperatures hovering in the 90s in the Dallas area, I decided to attempt my first “summertime” version of the Lehmann NY style pizza. By “summertime version”, I mean a Lehmann NY style pizza that is baked entirely on a pizza screen rather than on a stone that requires a long preheat. As regular followers of this thread know, the Lehmann NY style pizza is intended to be baked on a hearth-like refractory (stone) surface, which is fairly standard for a NY style. However, when outside temperatures are in the 90s, I am not particularly anxious to preheat my oven and pizza stone for an hour at around 500-550 degrees F, and keep my kitchen hot for another hour or so as the stone cools down after the pizza has been baked. With a pizza screen, I only need to preheat the oven to the desired temperature (in my case, around 500-550 degrees F) and then bake the pizza. That preheat time comes to around 10 minutes with my standard kitchen oven. And once the pizza is baked, the oven cools down quickly (at roughly the same rate as it was heated).

With the above objective in mind, I took the following steps. First, as indicated above, I used only a pizza screen and a normal oven preheat. Second, I used a bit of sugar in the dough. Except where a dough is to last beyond 48 hours, sugar is not normally included in the basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation. The reason for this exclusion is because a dough with sugar baked directly on a very hot stone surface can prematurely brown or char on the bottom before the rest of the pizza has finished baking. However, even Tom L. acknowledges that this is not a problem when screens are used, particularly in a home setting, and, in addition, the presence of the sugar will facilitate and enhance browning of the finished crust, which is a desirable contribution. So, I decided to use 1% sugar. Third, I decided to pre-bake the crust before dressing it and finishing the baking. I took this step in the hopes of achieving a more crispy crust--which is difficult to do when a screen is used--by effectively extending the total bake time, allowing the crust to bake longer without fear that it will be done before the cheeses and toppings are finished baking. As part of the pre-bake step, I also docked the undressed pizza skin with a docking tool to minimize the formation of bubbles in the crust during baking. For those not familiar with what such a tool looks like, see the first photo below. I might add that it is not necessary to use a docking tool per se. The same effect can be achieved using a simple kitchen fork.

The final dough formulation I used, for a 16-inch pizza, was as follows:

100%, High-gluten flour (KASL), 12.65 oz. (358.39 g.), 3 c. plus 2 t. (spoon, scoop and level technique)
63%, Water*, 7.96 oz. (225.79 g.), a bit less than 1 c.
1%, Sugar, 0.13 oz. (3.58 g.), a bit less than 1 t.
1%, Oil, 0.13 oz. (3.58 g.), a bit more than 3/4 t.
1.75%, Salt, 0.22 oz. (6.27 g.), 1 1/8 t.
0.25%, Instant dry yeast (IDY), 0.03 oz. (0.90 g.), a bit less than 1/3 t.
* Temperature adjusted to achieve a finished dough temperature of 75-80 degrees F
Total dough weight = 21.11 oz. (598.51 g)
Thickness factor (TF) = 0.105
Note: all measurements are standard U.S./metric

The processing of the dough was accomplished using a standard KitchenAid stand mixer and the following basic sequence: Salt and sugar dissolved in the water in the bowl of the mixer; IDY mixed in with the flour and gradually added to the salt/sugar brine and mixed/kneaded at Stir speed until a rough dough ball is formed; oil added and kneaded in (about 2 minutes at Stir speed); dough kneaded for about an additional 6 minutes at 2 speed; a final minute of hand kneading; coat the dough ball with a bit of oil and place in a container (covered) and directly into the refrigerator. (Note: for beginning pizza makers, the procedures I followed are essentially those described at this thread: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.0.html).

The dough remained in the refrigerator for about 24 hours. It was then removed, placed on a lightly floured work surface, covered with a bit of bench flour and a sheet of plastic wrap, and allowed to warm up at room temperature for about 2 hours. The dough was then stretched and shaped into a 16-inch round, docked with the docking tool, and placed onto the 16-inch pizza screen. Note that the docking is done before placing the skin onto the screen. Otherwise, the skin might stick to the screen by being forced into the crevices and/or scratch the screen itself. After 24 hours, the dough handled very easily, with a nice balance between extensibility and elasticity. The undressed/docked skin was placed in the oven, which had been preheated to around 500-550 degrees F for about 10-15 minutes. The higher temperature was selected on the theory that some of the oven heat would be lost once I opened the oven door to place the undressed skin into the oven. The skin was baked until it became firm and the rim of the dough expanded to the normal size, a period of almost two minutes. For purposes of the pre-bake, I used the lowest oven rack position.

I then removed the pre-baked skin, dressed it (with sauce, cheeses and pepperoni), and placed it back in the oven--without the screen this time--to finish baking. That took about 5-6 minutes, also on the lowest oven rack position. By the end of that time, the bottom of the crust had browned but the cheeses and the top crust needed additional bake time. So, I removed the pizza to the top oven rack position and exposed the pizza to about a minute or two of direct heat from the broiler element. That step also helped further brown the top crust at the rim.

The photos below show the finished results. I would describe the effort as a success, especially for an initial effort, although I believe that improvement is possible by modifying the basic dough formulation a bit and making a few changes to the baking methodology, as discussed below. The pizza itself was very tasty, with a nice open and airy crumb, and with the usual softness and chewiness characteristic of the NY style. I would have liked a bit more crispiness of the crust although there was some at the rim. Overall, however, I would say that the results were very good, and the total oven time, from start to finish, was less than a half hour. As an interesting side note, I might mention that I couldn’t tell from the finished pizza that the crust was pre-baked. The finished pizza looked and tasted like any other prepared in the standard way.

For my next “summertime” Lehmann NY style pizza, I plan to do the following: 1) reduce or eliminate the sugar, 2) use a lower thickness factor (e.g., 0.10), and 3) use the middle oven rack position and/or use a lower oven temperature (to allow a longer and slower overall bake and improve the chances of getting a crispier crust). I might even extend the fermentation time to 48 hours or more. The other steps would essentially remain the same.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: abc on May 28, 2006, 07:13:22 PM
i too have long worried about the summertime downside after enjoying some pizza making... last yr bet. July and Aug. i barely made anything, losing out on two good months of basil season.  Today it was humid and 80degrees and I made a 16" from some old, perhaps 2 months in the freezer dough.

I had to keep the range hood on max to try and exhaust the hot oven heat...

your experiment w/ only having to use the oven for 30min is stunning.  but i'm hard pressed to consider having pizza done w/o a stone because after having discovered a stone yrs ago, how could i go back.

Anyway, my old freezer dough thawed over night and i let it sit 2 hrs this morning on my kitchen counter.  When i stretched it, it felt very very elastic and would have readily absorbed a lot of bench flour had i not resisted to.  I managed to stretch it out to a 16" pie, but this is not the dough feel I'd ideally have.

As usual these days, I parbake, and the end result charred very well and to my pleasure a thin delicate crackle (not hard crunch) still existed in the finished product.   Not too much rise in the dough, I noticed.  Though there were nice air pockets, tt was borderline dense in some spots on the rim.

fresh sauce from my freezer, fresh basil and garlic...  combo of fresh mozz and low moisture mozz, onions, mushrooms and black olives.

Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on May 28, 2006, 08:34:30 PM
abc,

With temperatures recently close to 100 degrees in the Dallas area, my Napoletano and Genovese basil plants have seen their growth stunted, even when I have watered them regularly and kept them in the shade as much as possible. And summer has yet to arrive. It has occurred to me more than once that the summer months may better be spent trying out the pizzas from all the local pizzerias and letting them bear the burden of the summer heat. I may do some of that but I still like the idea of making my own pizzas from time to time. It's part of the addiction, I guess. And I remain confident that I will resolve the thermodynamic issues at some point and produce an acceptable "summertime" version of the Lehmann NY style using only a pizza screen and short bake times.

I am always intrigued to hear about pizzas made from frozen dough, as I was in your case, because I invariably learn something from such experiences. I believe that it is possible to make a decent frozen dough--if it is made with that intention from the start--but I am much less sanguine when the frozen dough is frozen leftover dough. Very little good--beyond convenience--comes from freezing dough. Freezing kills some of the yeast, which may already be in short supply in a leftover dough, and the defrosted dough may have a lot of glutathione (an amino acid released from the yeast cells) such that the dough is slack and gummy--and will tempt you to add more flour to overcome that condition--and result in a mediocre oven spring and a flat, somewhat lackluster crust. Unless the pizza is baked for a long time, it will often have a light finished crust. Moreover, during the freezing of the dough there is no fermentation whatsoever. So there are no compounds formed during freezing that can contribute to better flavor in the finished crust. My experience is that the older the frozen dough, especially in a home freezer that cycles on a repetitive basis, the worse the dough will perform when defrosted and used. Hence, a frozen dough is best used within a short time after being frozen.

Thanks again, abc, for posting your results.

Peter

Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: abc on May 30, 2006, 09:40:50 PM
Peter... with regards to your potential 'summer lehmann' dough... why not make it a 'summer 18" dough'?

Thought I recall that your trials with such a diameter required both screen time and stone time, screen time to set the crust, then finishing time on the stone, despite the pie extending beyond your 16" stone.

If you're aiming for a stoneless pizza, how about as well making it a 18" start to finish screen episode?


I know for me, I too did a screen to stone kind of deal when i made a 18" but more so only because I felt really dependent on stone time for my crust bottom.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on May 30, 2006, 09:52:16 PM
abc,

I hadn't thought of doing an 18" since the 16" has pretty much become my standard Lehmann size. However, if I can make a decent "summer" 16", I should be able to make an 18" also.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: abilak on May 31, 2006, 01:16:05 PM
Hey man, how much did they charge you for that 17x20 stone?


My oven thermometer that is placed on the stone indicated about 550.  My oven guage goes up to 500 then the next stop is broil.  I set the knob to almost broil to get to this level.

Also, my stone is from bakingstone.com and is custom cut to 17"x20".


Crusty
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on May 31, 2006, 03:43:23 PM
abilak,

Crusty is not an active member and it is also possible that the charge for the 17" x 20" Fibrament stone has changed since Crusty posted on his stone. To get the latest price for a 17" x 20" stone, I called AWMCO and inquired (1-773-846-1760).

Unless you buy a standard size stone such as set forth at http://www.bakingstone.com/order.php, there is a custom cutting charge applied. In the case of a 17" x 20" stone, AWMCO would have to cut it from an 18" x 24" stone, which is one of the standard size stones and retails for $80. The custom cutting charge would be an extra $10, for a total of $90 (shipping included). It sounds like the $10 custom cutting charge is fairly standard, but to be certain in any single instance it is perhaps wise to call or email AWMCO to get an actual quote.

If you are thinking about a stone for a home oven, you will want to be sure that the stone will fit your oven, with the door shut, of course (some oven doors protrude into the oven space). Usually you will also want to allow a bit of space around the stone for the oven air to circulate. This is less of a problem for a round stone rather than a rectangular stone, especially one that uses up a lot of oven space. An advantage of a large rectangular stone is that you can also bake things like long breads (e.g., baguettes) as well as pizzas.

If you are serious about a stone and plan to do a lot of baking using it, my personal advice is to get a size that will allow you to bake the largest size pizza you plan to make. If you have read some of my posts on this thread, you will see that I often use both a screen and a stone when I want to make the larger size pizzas--16" and above (with a max of 18"). I do this because my stone alone is not big enough to accommodate anything larger than 14". It wasn't until I decided I wanted to make larger pizzas--like the 16" and 18" Lehmann pies--that it occurred to me that a larger stone would have been better.

If price is an issue, then you might want to investigate using unglazed quarry tiles. If you do a search on the forum, using the search function, you will find a lot of information on that choice. There are also other types of stones that are cheaper than the Fibrament stones but the size options will usually be a lot fewer.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: abilak on June 01, 2006, 02:46:31 PM
Thanks Pete, I ended up ordering the following from restaurantsource.net :
Huge pizza's are cool and I may get a larger 17-18" screen in the future.. for now, 15" pizza's are fine for me!

Quantity       Price    Description
--------------------------------------------------------------
     1        $28.80    American Metalcraft - Pizza Stones - 15-3/4" round dia. x 7/8"  thick - PS1575
     1        $17.40    American Metalcraft - Standard Pizza Peels - 16" x 17" blade   18" handle   - 3616
--------------------------------------------------------------
Subtotal:     $46.20
Tax:           $0.00
Shipping:      $9.95    Smallware Shipping - from Restaurant Source Equipment &
Supplies
--------------------------------------------------------------
Total:        $56.15
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: abilak on June 02, 2006, 10:06:20 AM
Here is one I cranked out last night

3 3/4 cu Pillsbury "Better for bread" flour
slightly more than 1 cu water
2 1/2 tsp salt
1 tsp olive oil
1/2 tsp fleishmann's "rapid rise" yeast

Made dough in cuisinart mixer, all dry ingred. then water slowly (room temp).  added oil half-way through.
seperated into 2 balls, hand kneaded each for 2 mins.
placed in stainless bowl tossed w/ OO in frig for 48hrs.
let sit a room temp for 1 hour before using.

here is the finished product.  tasty.

Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: abilak on June 02, 2006, 10:07:59 AM
Oh yeah, pre-heated 14 3/4" stone for 1 hour, each pizza was about 14" or so
Cooked for about 7 mins, give or take.
I like a crispy crunchy crust.

I was just using stuff I had around the house.
I plan on getting some KASL flour and Fleishmann's IDY soon.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on June 02, 2006, 10:38:03 AM
abilak,

Very nice looking pizza. The Pillsbury bread flour is one that Tom Lehmann himself recommends to people who do not have access to higher-gluten flours. I am also pleased to see that the food processor approach worked well for you. I think the food processor is an underappreciated machine for making pizza doughs, especially for small batches. The key things to keep in mind is to use cold water (to offset the heat produced by the whirling blade) and not overknead the dough.

If you plan to make a lot of pizzas you might want to invest in a 1-lb. bag of IDY, either the Fleischmann's or the SAF Red. These brands are often sold at the big-box places like Sam's and Costco. The prices there are far lower than elsewhere and you save on shipping charges, which can sometimes be as high as the cost of the IDY itself.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: abilak on June 02, 2006, 10:42:03 PM
got the IDY at Sam's today.. wow $3 for 2 16oz bags.
should I leave the yeast in the bag it comes in and put it in the freezer, or transfer the yeast to some type of container then store it?
I have never used this type of yeast.. only the rapid-rise stuff.

here are 2 more I made.

Made 2 more pies with the same basic recipe but added 1 tsp VWG per cup of flour to this batch of dough.
I could definitely tell the difference.
I didn't tell my wife that I added it and she could tell too.
A little more chewy, yet the crust was nice and crispy as well.

First 3 pics is pie with sargento asiago and motz blend.

4th pic is pie with fresh motz

(I prefer plain pie, but my wife insists on toppings... oh well).

Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: abilak on June 02, 2006, 10:43:00 PM
forgot once again.

preheated stone to 550 for an hour.
the first pizza took 7.5 mins.
the second, almost 9 due to the fresh motz I assume.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on June 02, 2006, 11:01:18 PM
abilak,

My recollection is that Sam's carries the Fleischmann's IDY in the silver bag with blue lettering. If that is what you got you almost have a lifetime's supply :D.

The way I store my IDY is in the freezer. The bag you don't open should be kept that way (unopened) in the freezer. For the bag you do open, just close the bag after you have removed the amount of yeast you plan to use, wrap a rubber band around the bag to keep it shut, and place the bag in an airtight container back in the freezer. Using that approach, my one-pound bag lasted several years. If you make a lot of pizzas, you can keep a small supply in the refrigerator section if you'd like. It's not really necessary since I have not detected any problem using yeast right out of the freezer. Just take the bag of yeast out of the freezer as you are getting ready to make dough. By the time you are ready to use the yeast it will be up to temperature.

It looks like you are catching on fast and making nice pizzas right out of the block. Nice job.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: abilak on June 02, 2006, 11:30:50 PM
thanks for the info Pete!
this site is extremely helpful... after reading the threads for a few days and taking notes. my pizza's are tasting better already.
I think I am addicted because I am making another one tomorrow morning.

BTW -- I know a lot of you guys buy whole peeled canned tomatos, so do I -- in the winter that is.
I have 22 large tomato plants in my backyard and tons of ripe tomatoes as we speak.
If anyone is interested this is what I do to make sauce.

Get a pot of water boiling,
Get a bowl with ice water in it.
Cut an X on the bottom of each fresh tomato.
Drop a few in the boiling water for 20 seconds.
Take them out and drop them into the ice bath for 20 seconds or so.
The skin will peel right off.
Throw a bunch in the food processor (I use a cuisinart) and add some tomato paste (you'll have to experiment to get the right amount).
Add dried basil, black pepper, oregano, and some kosher salt (again, you'll have to experiment with the ratios).
Pulse a few times until they are chopped pretty good.  The sauce should not be watery at this point.. it should stick to a metal spoon at least a little bit.  If too watery add more paste and pulse some more.

Now, here is something I noticed.
If you just use this sauce as is for pizza sauce, it is very good and has a very fresh taste that I like to top with fresh motz, and even some fresh basil too.

If you cook it for 5-7 mins, then drop a little bit of butter in at the end.  This sauce taste completely different and I like to top with motz, prov, and asiago blend.
Sometimes I throw diced garlic in the right when I am cooking it.  Garlic lovers will love this -- Don't forget to also put fresh garlic on the pie for the ultimate garlic experience.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Wallman on June 03, 2006, 09:58:40 PM
I had a moderate failure last week with the Lehmann NY Style dough. I let the dough retard for too long, over 5 days.  Interestingly, the dough tasted ok, but it had very little oven spring, I think the dough went slack. The baked pizza had almost an undercooked pancake like feel in the crust. I followed Pete's basic 63% hydration recipe.  Elsewhere there are suggestions on making an extended retardation dough, but this didn't work too well for me with the basic recipe.  Next time, I'll make pizza sooner!
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on June 03, 2006, 10:40:43 PM
Wally,

Tom Lehmann specifies an outer limit for the dough made from his formulation at 72 hours. Beyond that he recommends adding about 1-2% sugar. I believe what happened in your case is that the yeast ran out of food (sugar) and started to die, leaving too little yeast in the dough at the time of baking to support a good oven spring. Also, the protease enzymes undoubtedly significantly degraded the gluten and precipitated the release of water from the dough. This will cause the overall slack effect you mentioned. The lack of residual sugar shows up as a very light crust, and increasing the bake time usually does not improve matters. I did a similar test recently with a Neapolitan style dough and got the same results you did. The dough was, in effect, dead.  But that is how you learn. Or to paraphrase Dirty Harry (Clint Eastwood): A man's got to know his dough's limitations.

One of the few NY dough formulations I am aware of that will allow you to make a dough that will last 5 days is Canadave's NY dough formulation. Its inherent design permits a longer window of usability.

Peter

Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Wallman on June 03, 2006, 11:02:30 PM
Yep, my dough definitely died.  I made a pie with the same dough batch at 24 hours and it was fine.  Just poor planning on my part!  Again, the pizza tasted ok, but didn't have any spring to it.   I've made Canadave's recipe once and should try it again.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on June 14, 2006, 04:31:05 PM
From time to time, I have thought about making a same-day, few-hours pizza dough based on the basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation that has been the subject of this thread. It wasn’t until I saw a post recently on the PMQ Think Tank forum, in which the poster asked Tom how to make a few-hours version of his dough formulation (see http://www.pmq.com/cgi-bin/tt/index.cgi/noframes/read/30245), that I decided to try such a version. As will be noted from the above post, Tom recommends using 2% yeast. Based on what Tom has said before in other places, the 2% refers to fresh yeast, not instant dry yeast (IDY) or active dry yeast (ADY). For instant dry yeast--which is what I have been using--one would need to use about one-third of the 2% number (or one-half for ADY). 

I decided to make both a 2-hour cold fermented dough, with a 1-hour counter warm-up time (3 hours total), and a 2-hour room-temperature only fermented dough (2 hours total). I was somewhat puzzled by the cold fermented version because there is little that happens in a dough from a fermentation standpoint in two hours of refrigeration. Apparently I am not the only one puzzled by this. I recall that pizzanapoletana (Marco) commented on this phenomenon at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1055.msg9357.html#msg9357. The best explanation I can come up with is that the two-hour cold fermentation may be solely for the benefit of pizza operators to allow them to better manage their inventory of dough balls.

I used the same dough formulation for both dough balls, and I tried as best I could to make the dough balls as identically as possible, adhering to the recommendations set forth by Tom Lehmann in the above post. (For the benefit of beginning pizza makers, I might add that I used the basic dough preparation techniques described in Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.msg19563.html#msg19563).

For test purposes, I elected to make 12” pizzas and to use a pizza screen to bake them. I chose to use the pizza screen because it has been very hot lately in the Dallas area and I wanted to keep the oven time to a minimum--less than one-half hour. I used my KitchenAid stand mixer for mixing and kneading purposes, but any kneading approach should work equally well. And there is no reason why a pizza stone/tiles can’t be used if desired, in which case I would use the normal protocol (temperature and time) for baking the pizzas on stones/tiles.

The dough formulation I used for both doughs was as follows:

100%, High-gluten flour (KASL), 7.14 oz. (202.26 g.), 1 3/4 c. plus 1 t.
63%, Water*, 4.49 oz. (127.42 g.), between 1/2 and 5/8 c.
1.75%, Salt, 0.12 oz. (3.54 g.), 5/8 t.
1%, Oil (extra-virgin olive oil), 0.07 oz. (2.02 g.), a bit less than 1/2 t.
0.7%, Instant dry yeast (IDY), 0.05 oz. (1.42 g.), a bit less than 1/2 t.
* Temp. adjusted to achieve a finished dough temperature of between 85-90 degree F
Total dough weight = 11.88 oz. (336.66 g.)
Thickness factor (TF) = 0.105
Note: All measurements U.S./metric standard

I had no problems whatsoever in making the two dough balls or in shaping and stretching them out to 12 inches. Both doughs about doubled in volume by the time they were to be used and both had a nice balance between elasticity and extensibility. It was very easy to toss the skins made from the dough balls. In fact, I think that the dough would make a good choice for one wishing to practice their dough stretching and tossing skills.

Both 12-inch skins were dressed similarly in a simple pepperoni style. Each was baked on the lowest oven rack position of a 450-degrees F preheated oven for about 8 minutes, following which the pizza was moved off of the pizza screen to the middle rack position, where it was baked for about another 5 minutes or so, or until the rim of the crust had turned a nice shade of brown and the cheeses were bubbling and starting to turn brown in spots. The total oven time, from beginning to end, was about one-half hour.

The photos below show the finished pizzas. The first set of photos is for the 3-hour dough; the second set of photos (regrettably under different lighting conditions) is for the 2-hour dough. I thought both turned out quite well but not as well as the typical Lehmann NY style pizzas I make using one or more days of cold fermentation. The crusts had a nice brown color, top and bottom, and were chewy and fairly soft with a breadlike crumb. For my palate, there was not a great deal of crust flavor, although the KASL itself, with its high protein content, contributed some flavor. However, the crusts and pizzas were tasty enough to be able to recommend them to someone who is interested or needs to make a pizza in only a few hours time. As between the 3-hour (cold ferment plus 1 hour warm-up) and the 2-hour version, I would perhaps go with the 2-hour version since I did not detect a big enough difference to warrant the 3-hour version. I might add that the Lehmann post referenced above also talks about a 4-hour cold ferment version using 3 hours of cold fermentation and a 1-hour counter warm-up time. I didn’t try this version but I suspect it will be a bit better than the 3-hour version.

For those who are interested in learning more about short-term doughs, the following items may be of interest: http://www.pmq.com/cgi-bin/tt/index.cgi/noframes/read/8503 and http://www.pmq.com/lehmann_winter-97-98.shtml. Note, however, that the latter article includes an error. The 7% IDY figure (in the 3d paragraph) should be 0.7%. I did not increase the oil content as suggested in the latter article, but that is something I plan to try in a future effort.

Peter

EDIT (10/24/14): For the Wayback Machine version of the Tom Lehmann PMQ Q&A on emergency dough, see http://web.archive.org/web/20110109052638/http://www.pmq.com/mag/200708/lehmann.php (http://web.archive.org/web/20110109052638/http://www.pmq.com/mag/200708/lehmann.php); for the Wayback Machine versions of the other inoperative PMQ links, see http://web.archive.org/web/20050115040043/http://www.pmq.com/cgi-bin/tt/index.cgi/noframes/read/8503 (http://web.archive.org/web/20050115040043/http://www.pmq.com/cgi-bin/tt/index.cgi/noframes/read/8503) and http://web.archive.org/web/20080228031748/http://www.pmq.com/lehmann_winter-97-98.shtml (http://web.archive.org/web/20080228031748/http://www.pmq.com/lehmann_winter-97-98.shtml)

Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on June 14, 2006, 04:37:23 PM
And the 2-hour room-temperature fermented dough version.....

Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: musiq on June 15, 2006, 05:06:31 PM
Hi Pete-zza,
it's interesting you tried a quick pizza recipe, i've been thinking about doing the same lately.
As far as i know (and believe me, i don't know much!) , rising and maturing the dough have different timings, the former being generally quicker than the latter, and using the fridge has the purpose of retarding the rising enough to make the dough be fully developed. Maturation time is proportional to flour strenght, and this is the reason why for a napolitan pizza, which uses medium strenght flours, you shouldn't need cold fermentation. Using minimal amounts of yeast, and working on salt , hydration, dough kneading process, etc. you can control the rising and delay it even to 24 hours at room temperatures. Strong flours need longer fermentation time , thus requiring the use of the fridge.

All this considered , i reckon a quick pizza should be made with the weakest possible flour. Which means a low quality 00 , or an AP one..High gluten flours need more than 24 hours fermentation, otherwise what you get is something it will be on your stomach for hours..how were yours from this point of view?

I'm telling you, this is all theory, i still haven't tried anything like this...i was willing to , but got stuck in experimenting in roman style focaccia...90% hydration...hard work! :chef:

Anyway..thank you for your all your contributions to this forum! Before reading you guys, i had no idea where to start...
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on June 15, 2006, 08:19:18 PM
Carlo,

Everything you have said in your post is correct, and for the reasons you mentioned.

Although I had often thought about a short-term Lehmann dough, I did not intend to make a few-hours version until I saw the post where the poster asked Tom Lehmann how to adapt his formulation to a short term application. Under ordinary circumstances, if one wishes to get the best crust flavor, the most common way to do it is through a long fermentation of the dough. It doesn't matter what the flour is so long as the fermentation time selected is compatible with the flour selected. As you know, in Italy the 00 flour is used almost exclusively for same-day, room-temperature fermentation. Refrigeration, if used, is only to hold a dough over, not for fermentation purposes per se. In the U.S., some pizza operators routinely use cold fermentation for 00 doughs. As best I can determine, this is done primarily for dough inventory and management purposes, since it reduces or eliminates the need to discard or recycle unused dough at the end of the day. Even for strong flours, such as a high gluten flour, cold fermentation is used by many operators in the U.S. because it accomplishes the objective of getting better or more crust flavor--provided the fermentation period is long enough--and it also fits nicely with the practices that pizza operators routinely use to manage their inventory of dough balls.

When operators in the U.S. intentionally decide to make short-term dough (sometimes called "emergency" dough), it is usually because they have run out of their regular dough or something unfortunate has happened to their dough balls. It might be that the cooler broke down overnight, or there was a power failure overnight that ruined the dough, or any one of a number of other unanticipated or special events. Under these kinds of circumstances, the practice is to make a short-term dough using the regular flour and not change to another flour, which they may not have on hand in any event. You'd also like the finished crust to taste like the normal one and not have the difference detected by your customers. So, if an operator was using high-gluten flour, for example, to make a Lehmann NY dough, it is preferable to use that same flour for the short-term dough and not shift to an all-purpose flour solely because it will behave and perform better for a short-term application. As it so happens, if the flour is a high-gluten flour, the finished crust should taste better than an all-purpose crust because of its higher protein content. The high-gluten crust should also be chewier than an all-purpose crust and have better color, again because of its higher protein content. For these reasons, I would personally chose a high-gluten flour--either bread flour or a KASL type flour--over any other flour for a short-term dough. I might add that many individuals will favor a short-term dough, even if it has shortcomings, simply because it is easy and fast to make and produces a fairly good final product. I suspect that it is less common for pizza operators to use short-term doughs exclusively because competitors who use long fermentation would be able to offer a better pizza and conceivably drive them out of business.

You are correct that a short-term dough can play havoc with one's digestive system because the enzymes have had too little time to work on and break down the starch and gluten. I did notice a slightly leaden effect on my stomach with the short-term Lehmann pizzas I made. In the past I didn't pay much attention to that effect, and wasn't even consciously aware of it until the pizzaiolo at Naples 45 in NYC mentioned it to me when he was espousing the benefits of a 00 crust over a high-gluten one. Later, pizzanapoletana (Marco) said the same thing.

As you can see, there is a curious and somewhat intricate interplay between the flour used and running a business :).

Peter

Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: musiq on June 16, 2006, 09:37:50 AM
Peter,
your attention to details is , as usual, amazing. And i'm not talking about pizza now. You called me Carlo, and i don't even know where i wrote my real name in here!

Anyway..I know stronger flour generally give better flavour, mine was just a speculation on how going back to weaker flours could have been. I think many of us before been carried away by this passion, used to do the classic 2-3 hours rise, with AP flours, 50% hydration, and a ton of yeast. I was just wondering if the newly acquired knowledge could have helped me getting better result now in that enviroment, with the right adjustments of course. I've never had a real NY pizza (well, i've lived in NY till i was 4 , if i had it, i dont remember it!) , but working with your lehmann modifications , i 've been having very good results for my taste. So i tried a quick version of it few weeks ago...and besides the flat flavour ...i'm still struggling to digest it!! I admit i have my problems with gluten, but nonetheless i think anyone would benefit from a lighter pie...The last thing we would want in our bodies are undigested proteins! Mine is ,of course just a search for perfection, because we both know this kind of recipe would  be , as you mentioned, an "emergency", and thus we could be satisfied with it anyway...but are we?? We both know the answer...
This sunday i'm going back to italy for a few days..good occasion to experiment with my parents kitchen, not having to clean the mess afterwards!

Bye,
Carlo

Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on June 16, 2006, 10:33:37 AM
Carlo,

When you first joined the forum, you told us your name and that you were living in the UK but once lived in Italy. Knowing that, I intentionally drew the distinction between the way pizzas are made in Italy using 00 flour, with which you would be familiar, and how they are made in the U.S. using other flours, which you might not be quite as familiar. In Italy, and especially places like Naples, pizza makers seem to be bound more by tradition. This is less common in the U.S., where more attention is given to how to exploit ideas to create profitable businesses. In that context, it isn't surprising that a short-term dough should emerge out of flour, water, yeast and salt. If there is a way to do it, American entrepreneurism will usually find it.

A short-term dough will appeal to ordinary home pizza makers also because it saves time and is easy to make. I have the luxury of time to make exactly the pizza I want to make, but most people don't have that luxury. But I still think it is good to know how to make the best short-term dough possible for those occasions where there is a desire or need to have it, for whatever reason. I think quite often about how more flavor might be introduced to a short-term dough. I know that there are chemical additives to do this sort of thing, as some bakers and commisaries use to create faux sourdough breads, but I would prefer natural ways--which I have yet to uncover.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: enchant on June 16, 2006, 12:50:35 PM
I received my first KASL via mail order on Thursday.  Now I have all of the ingredients and no excuses, so I made a couple of dough balls using this version of the Lehmann recipe:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg17956.html#msg17956

I planned to take them out of the fridge around 4pm on Saturday to bake for dinner.  This would give them about 50 hours fridge time, which seemed pretty good.

Since then, we received an invitation to a cookout on Saturday afternoon.  I already have Father's Day plans for Sunday, so it'd be Monday earliest before I'd be able to use them.  So I'm going to pull them out tonight with only 26 hours of fridge time.

Is there anything I can/should do to compensate for the reduced time?  Should I take them out of the fridge a little early and give them more counter time?
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on June 16, 2006, 02:08:12 PM
enchant,

When I followed the formulation you referenced, I let the dough stay in the refrigerator for about 3 days, and it took some time before the dough started to expand in volume. At 26 hours of fermentation in your case, you might expect a less extensible (more elastic) dough because of the shorter fermentation time (due to the small amount of yeast used and the slightly colder dough temperature).

To compensate at least in part for the shorter overall fermentation time, I would take the dough out of the refrigerator several hours before you plan to use the dough. Just dust the dough ball lightly with a bit of bench flour, cover it with a sheet of plastic wrap, and let it warm up. Usually, it takes a dough ball around 1-2 hours after coming out of the refrigerator to warm up sufficiently to use (depending on the dough temperature and the room temperature), and it is still good thereafter for about another few hours. So, if you stay within a window of about 5-6 hours or so after removing the dough from the refrigerator, and your kitchen is reasonably warm, I think you should be OK. The longer counter time should help accelerate the fermentation and rise as the dough warms up. What you want to look for is an expanded dough that is noticeably puffy and soft (you will also be able to tell by just poking your finger in the dough). As long as the dough is heading in that direction, I think you should be OK, and if a bit more time is required, then let the dough rest some more. You might even find that 5-6 hours is not quite long enough under the circumstances.

I'll be interested to see how the dough turns out.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: enchant on June 16, 2006, 02:15:44 PM
Since I made two dough balls,  it will be an interesting experiment.  I'll take one out now for pizza tonight and then take another out on Monday and see if one was particularly better than the other.  And I'll report back.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: enchant on June 16, 2006, 08:20:10 PM
Since I don't have much else to compare this with, I wouldn't know how it stacks up to what everyone else has been doing, but personally, I'm thrilled with the result.  This is the first pizza dough I ever made that didn't taste like little more than wet flour.  Up to now, I've always bought my dough frozen from a bakery, and was pretty happy with it.  This stuff is easily as good.  I'll probably always keep a few pre-bought balls in the freezer when I need something in a hurry, but I'm going to start using this from now on.

I took the dough ball out of the fridge at 1pm -  about 5 hours before I was ready to bake.  I tried a trick that I'd used last week that had worked pretty well.  I put the ball into a lightly oiled ceramic bowl, put the bowled dough into a plastic food storage bag and partly submerged it into a bath of tepid water.  About an hour later, I came back and the dough felt to be room temperature, and I removed it from the bath.  A few hours later, at 5pm, the dough was overflowing the bowl - probably 2.5 x its original size.  So I figured it was probably ready, and I fired up the oven.

The dough was very soft, easily extensible, and had a good windowpane to it.  It cooked nicely using my usual method - 550 degree oven preheated for 45 minutes.  Bake for 7 minutes.  It was perfect.

I think that the only thing I'll change is to reduce the quanties so that I'll get a 16 oz ball.  The recipe I used was for a 20-oz ball, and the edges of the crust were awfully large (but very very tasty!).
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on June 16, 2006, 09:03:19 PM
enchant,

I'm happy to hear that you were pleased with your results. I also like the little "trick" you used to warm up the dough. What I use when I need to warm up the dough is a simple proofing box, like this one: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,403.msg4887.html#msg4887 (Reply 6). It's the last thing I need this time of year in Texas, but it comes in very handy in the winter.

Since you are new to the Lehmann dough, did you follow any particular instructions to make the dough? The formulation you tried, if you followed it to the letter, is not one of the easiest because of the minuscule amount of instant dry yeast--only 1/5th of a teaspoon. Most people are likely to "cheat" and increase it out of an excess of caution. It can almost happen by accident since it isn't easy to measure out 1/5th of a teaspoon.

It will be interesting to see how the remaining dough ball turns out. It should be even more extensible by Monday and, if you have a sensitive palate, you may notice more flavor in the finished crust. You might make mental notes of the two pizzas for comparison purposes. That will help you in the future. You should also learn a bit about the lifespan of a typical dough.

BTW, it is possible to make frozen versions of the Lehmann dough. For details, you may want to take a look at Reply 272 at page 14, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg17428.html#msg17428. If nothing else, you will learn a lot about dough just reading the post.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: enchant on June 16, 2006, 09:33:24 PM
Since you are new to the Lehmann dough, did you follow any particular instructions to make the dough? The formulation you tried, if you followed it to the letter, is not one of the easiest because of the minuscule amount of instant dry yeast--only 1/5th of a teaspoon. Most people are likely to "cheat" and increase it out of an excess of caution. It can almost happen by accident since it isn't easy to measure out 1/5th of a teaspoon.

I used your instructions that you gave to pizzzagirl:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.msg19563.html#msg19563

I'm not sure if I got exactly a fifth tsp of IDY, but probably close to it.  I have a quarter teaspoon measure.  I leveled that off and then knocked off what I estimated to be about 20%.  I think it was probably closer to a fifth than a fourth.

I tried to be as accurate as possible.  I've got a digital scale, and although it doesn't  register hundredths of an ounce, I does do tenths.

I thought that the first ball seemed just slightly dry to me, but I decided to blindly follow the recipe and see how it baked.  But I immediately made a second ball and increased the water from 7.6 oz to 7.8 oz, and the tackyness seemed just right.  But for all I know, my scale isn't measuring exactly.  Today I baked that second wetter ball.

Quote
It will be interesting to see how the remaining dough ball turns out. It should be even more extensible by Monday and, if you have a sensitive palate, you may notice more flavor in the finished crust. You might make mental notes of the two pizzas for comparison purposes. That will help you in the future. You should also learn a bit about the lifespan of a typical dough.

The crust I had today was pretty tasty, but I suppose anything can be improved.

Quote
BTW, it is possible to make frozen versions of the Lehmann dough. For details, you may want to take a look at Reply 272 at page 14, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg17428.html#msg17428. If nothing else, you will learn a lot about dough just reading the post.

THAT would be great.  My wife and I run a business out of our home, and although things are a little slow now and I've got time on my hands to make dough, it's not always that way.  Suddenly Saturday is upon us and it's time to make pizza.  It would be nice if I can make some "backup" dough to keep in the freezer.

Now I've just got to find a cool and dark place to hide that soon-to-be-purchased 50 lb bag of KASL from my wife. ;)
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on June 16, 2006, 10:01:05 PM
enchant,

You should feel free to tweak the amounts of flour and water. For the sake of consistency, I always start with accurate amounts weighed on my digital scale but almost always make slight adjustments in the bowl to compensate for the minor variations in flour due to age, moisture content, humidity, storage effects, etc. Also, a small amount of the flour and dough may stick to the sides of the bowl, dough hook, your hands, etc. Usually the adjustments are not more than a fraction of a teaspoon of flour or water (there's almost never a need to change the other ingredients). Those using volume measurements may experience even greater variation. What is most important is to be able to identify the condition of the dough that leads to the best results. That comes with experience and practice and no amount of words or photos can convey that condition with precision. But once you achieve a successful dough on a repeatable basis, you will always remember it and be able to replicate it pretty much at will. Even then, the dough will not be identical every time but the variations will be small.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: deb415611 on June 17, 2006, 08:02:19 AM
Enchant,

Don't worry about your wife - at first my husband shook his head, rolled his eyes but has now become silent on the subject since he's enjoying the benefits of that large bag.   :-D   

Deb
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: enchant on June 17, 2006, 08:25:52 AM
I think you're right, Deb.  The problem is that my wife is absolutely militant about not wasting anything.  If she was alone at a restaurant that didn't allow you to take home food, and the choice was an 8 oz steak dinner for $12 or a 24 oz steak dinner for $10, she'd pay extra for the 8 oz dinner.

I've talked to her before about the 50 lb bag.  I explained that I just paid about $10 (including shipping) for six pounds.  For $14.75, I can get 50 lb locally.  Seems like pretty easy math to me.

"How many pizzas will a 50 lb bag make?"
"Well over a year's worth."
"Will it last that long?"
"Possibly not, but even if it doesn't - even if I throw 80% of it away, it's still a better deal!"

Big big mistake, making that point.  She totally vetoed the idea.

But I'm going to try talking my brother into splitting a bag with me.  That might solve the problem.  And even if he's not interested, he can just throw HIS half away.

But it just occurred to me...  I've got a stand-up arcade machine in the basement, and I think that the flour might fit nicely inside.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on June 17, 2006, 09:01:29 AM
enchant,

An even better bargain would be instant dry yeast (IDY) if you buy it by the pound and store it in the freezer section of your refrigerator where it can last for several years. If you use 1/5th teaspoon per pizza, as you did recently, that would theoretically allow you to make around 750 pizzas out of the bag (if you don't spill any of the yeast). Admittedly, 1/5th teaspoon is very low for any pizza, but if you used a more typical 1/2 teaspoon for a Lehmann dough, you would theoretically have enough IDY to make 300 Lehmann pizzas. One of our new members recently reported on this thread that he bought two one-pound bags of IDY at Sam's for $3. Even if you paid multiples of that (e.g., from King Arthur), you would still have a bargain compared with the packets or bottles of yeast sold in the supermarkets. Recently, I saw one of those 3-packet strips of yeast sold in a local supermarket at over $2.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: enchant on June 17, 2006, 09:12:28 AM
That's funny. ;D Well gee, I'd jump all over that Sam's club 2 lb deal, but since my one pound bag should theoretically last me another 14 years...

Seems that about the only thing in a pizza that makes it cost anything at all is the cheese!  No wonder my little town has like 500 pizza joints.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on June 19, 2006, 09:12:36 AM
In a recent post, at Reply 389 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg26720.html#msg26720), I described my efforts to make a “summertime” version of the Lehmann dough and pizza, using a pizza screen only and a short baking time (about a half hour total). Based on what I learned from that effort, I made some adjustments in an attempt to improve upon my last results. What I was especially hoping to achieve is a greater degree of crispiness in the bottom crust. Even Tom Lehmann in some of his writings says that this is not a particularly easy thing to do when using a pizza screen. Usually, such comments are made in the context of a commercial setting where operators are reluctant to reduce the bake temperature and use a longer bake time in their conveyor ovens to produce a drier and, therefore, more crispy, finished crust. This is not an issue for most of us on the forum, and it was with that thought in mind that I acted to improve upon my last effort.

The dough formulation I used was essentially the same as recited in Reply 389 except that I eliminated the sugar and reduced the thickness factor a bit (from 0.105 to 0.10) in order to achieve a slightly thinner dough that I hoped would result in a thinner, and more crispy crust. For convenience, I have recited the formulation here:

100%, High-gluten flour (KASL), 12.12 oz. (343.38 g.), 2 3/4 c. + 2 T. (stir, spoon and level technique)
63%, Water, 7.63 oz. (216.33 g.), between 7/8 and 1 c.
1%, Oil (extra virgin olive oil), 0.12 oz. (3.43 g.), 3/4 t.
1.75%, Salt, 0.21 oz. (6.01 g.), a bit over 1 t.
0.25%, Instant dry yeast (IDY), 0.03 oz. (0.86 g.), a bit over 1/4 t.
Total dough weight = 20.11 oz. (570.01 g.)
Thickness factor (TF) = 0.10
Pizza size = 16”
Note: all measurements are U.S./metric standard

The dough was prepared following the basic procedures outlined in Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.msg19563.html#msg19563, and placed in the refrigerator (in a metal, lidded container) for just over 48 hours. When I was ready to use the dough, I brought it out of the refrigerator and let it rise, covered, on my kitchen counter for about 2 hours. The remaining steps I used to get the results I was looking for were as follows:

1) I shaped and stretched the dough out to a 16” “skin” and placed it on a floured round cardboard form. I covered the skin with plastic wrap and allowed it to proof for about 20 minutes. The proofing was for the purpose of increasing the gas in the dough to make it a better “insulator”. In theory, by so doing, the heat transfer through the skin would be reduced and permit a longer bake time and, hence, a drier and crispier crust.

2) After the 20-minute proofing of the skin, I docked it using a docking tool (as previously shown in Reply 389 referenced above). The docking was done on the cardboard form rather than on the screen in order to prevent the dough from being forced into the crevices of the screen and becoming permanently lodged to it. I used the docking tool because I have it but I could have just as well used a simple kitchen fork.

3) I transferred the docked skin to a 16” pizza screen and placed the skin in the oven on the lowest oven rack position. The oven had been turned on about half way through the 20-minute proof period and preheated to about 500-550 degrees F. The skin was allowed to pre-bake only until the dough set and the rim of the dough rose to its normal size, about 2 minutes. There were a few bubbles that formed in the dough during the pre-bake, which I poked with a skewer to deflate. (Docking tools are not 100% effective, especially during pre-bakes with nothing on the skin). As might be expected, there was some oven heat loss from the in-and-out pre-bake step. It was to compensate for this loss that I had preheated the oven to 500-550 degrees to begin with. The final bake temperature I was aiming for was 450 degrees F.

4) I removed the pre-baked skin from the oven, dressed it (in a simple pepperoni style), and returned it to the oven, without the screen, to finish baking. This time, I lowered the oven temperature to about 450 degrees F and placed the pizza on the middle oven rack position so that it would bake more slowly, but longer--without overbaking--and create greater crispiness in the finished crust. The pizza baked on the middle oven rack position for about 8 minutes, or until the crust was a nice color and the cheeses were starting to turn brown in spots. There was no need to use the broiler element, as I often do in order to get greater crust coloration.

5) Once the pizza was done baking, I removed it from the oven and placed it back on the cardboard form (unfloured). The cardboard form was used since it acts as an insulator and helps keep the moisture in the crust from escaping and turning the bottom crust soft and soggy. (This was a tip from one of Tom Lehmann’s writings.)

The photos below show the finished product. I thought the pizza turned out very well. As hoped, it had a nice crispy, browned bottom crust, a chewy rim, and a soft and open interior crumb. After a bit more than 2 days of dough fermentation, and because of the longer and slower bake, which intensifies crust flavors (through de-naturing of the protein in the flour), the crust was very flavorful and with a pleasant aroma. Just as importantly for me is that I learned a few more things about oven management in making this particular pizza--especially how to use oven temperatures and bake times and rack positioning and pre-bake techniques to achieve the desired results, particularly when using a pizza screen rather than a stone or tiles. I was also pleased that I was able to produce a good pizza without overheating my kitchen. As with my recent summer pizza making efforts, the total elapsed oven time was around a half-hour.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on June 21, 2006, 09:38:06 PM
Recently, after having read about Greek/bar style pizzas, I decided to make one using a modified version of the basic Lehmann NY style dough. Greek/bar style pizzas are baked in pans and usually have thicker crusts than the NY style, and the doughs for them use a fair amount of sugar. To achieve that style using the Lehmann dough formulation, I 1) increased the thickness factor from a typical 0.10-0.105 to 0.11 (to achieve a thicker crust), 2) increased the yeast (IDY) by about 50% (to get more rise in the dough), and 3) added sugar to the dough (sugar seems to be a common ingredient for the Greek/bar style). Because the changes I made deviated in several respects from the basic Lehmann dough formulation and because a pan was used to bake the pizza, I have opted to report the results at the Greek pizza thread at: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,691.msg27482.html#msg27482. I thought the pizza was first rate, and mention it here simply because the results demonstrate how the basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation can be modified quite easily to make other types of pizzas. The photo below is of the pizza I made (shown within the pan).

Peter
Title: Re:Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Scagnetti on June 22, 2006, 04:25:16 PM
.
.

The final recipe, with baker's percents, is as follows:

   KA bread flour (100%), 12.10 ounces (about 2 3/4 c.)
   Arrowhead VWG (2.5 %), 0.30 oz. (about 1 T.)
   Water (63%), 7.65 oz. (about 7/8 c.), plus an additional 1 T.
   Salt (1.75%), 0.21 oz. (about 1 t.)
   Oil (1.0%), 0.12 oz. (about 3/4 t.)
   IDY (0.25%), 0.03 oz. (between 1/4 and 1/3 t.)
.
.
.

Above excerpted from Reply #65 and #66 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg5635.html#msg5635

Pete,

Do you think this method can be used as a substitute for any recipe requiring high gluten flour, specifically Steve's quick & easy NY pie as noted at:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2790.0.html

Thanks.

Scagnetti
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on June 22, 2006, 05:09:52 PM
Scagnetti,

If you are asking whether the bread flour and vital wheat gluten (VWG) combination can be used in lieu of the high-gluten KASL in Steve's recipe or another recipe calling for high-gluten flour, the answer is yes. You should also be able to get away with using only bread flour (without the VWG). In that case, you might lower the hydration a bit, by maybe 1-2%, to compensate for the fact that bread flour has a slightly lower absorption rate (hydration) than high-gluten flour.

If you are asking whether the Lehmann dough formulation you referenced can be used to make a "quick and easy" pizza dough like Steve's, the answer is also yes but you would have to modify the formulation. I suspect that that is not what you are really asking, but if so and you would like to know how to modify the formulation, please let me know.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Scagnetti on June 22, 2006, 05:34:28 PM
If you are asking whether the Lehmann dough formulation you referenced can be used to make a "quick and easy" pizza dough like Steve's, the answer is also yes but you would have to modify the formulation. I suspect that that is not what you are really asking, but if so and you would like to know how to modify the formulation, please let me know.

Peter

I've done your "Massachusetts" pizza twice (Reply #65) using KA All Purpose flour and VWG. The first pie was really good with a good crust and bubbles.  The second one was flat with no bubbles at all but I think I screwed up by opening the oven once too many times.  Anyway, what adjustments would I have to make for Steve's if I wanted to use the KA AP or KA Bread flour and VWG approach.

Scagnetti

Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on June 22, 2006, 07:56:18 PM
Scagnetti,

Steve's quick and easy dough recipe calls for 10.7 ounces of KASL and 7.4 ounces of water. If you want to use a combination of bread flour and vital wheat gluten (VWG) in lieu of KASL in Steve's recipe, you would go through the types of calculations described in Reply 65 that you referenced. If you want to use a combination of all-purpose flour and VWG in lieu of the KASL in Steve's recipe, you would go through the types of calculations described in Reply 67. When I originally did these calculations, I assumed that King Arthur bread flour (KABF) and King Arthur all-purpose flour (KAAP) were used. If you are using different brands of bread flour and all-purpose flour, the calculations would produce slightly different results because the King Arthur brands of both these flours have slightly higher protein levels than just about all competing brands.

On the assumption that KABF and KAAP are used, the quantities of flour, VWG and water to use in Steve's recipe would be as set forth below. The remaining ingredients (salt and yeast) can remain the same.

KABF (12.7% protein)
10.7 oz. KABF
0.27 oz. VWG (a bit over 2 1/2 t.)
7.80 oz. water

KAAP (11.7% protein)
10.7 oz. KAAP
0.45 oz. VWG (a bit over 4 1/4 t.)
8.07 oz. water

Using the above approaches will increase the total weight of the dough a bit from that derived from Steve's recipe, but the differences will be slight. However, if you want to keep the same weight in each case, you could subtract the weight of the VWG from the flour and leave the water alone. This approach was also described in Reply 65. Because Steve's recipe calls for a hydration of 69.2% and will yield a quite wet dough as a result, you may find that you will have to add a bit more flour in the event you can't handle the dough because of excessive wetness. This is somewhat inevitable because of the different hydration characteristics of the different flours and also the VWG.

Good luck.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: musiq on July 16, 2006, 05:07:06 PM
Carlo,

When you first joined the forum, you told us your name and that you were living in the UK but once lived in Italy. Knowing that, I intentionally drew the distinction between the way pizzas are made in Italy using 00 flour, with which you would be familiar, and how they are made in the U.S. using other flours, which you might not be quite as familiar. In Italy, and especially places like Naples, pizza makers seem to be bound more by tradition. This is less common in the U.S., where more attention is given to how to exploit ideas to create profitable businesses. In that context, it isn't surprising that a short-term dough should emerge out of flour, water, yeast and salt. If there is a way to do it, American entrepreneurism will usually find it.

A short-term dough will appeal to ordinary home pizza makers also because it saves time and is easy to make. I have the luxury of time to make exactly the pizza I want to make, but most people don't have that luxury. But I still think it is good to know how to make the best short-term dough possible for those occasions where there is a desire or need to have it, for whatever reason. I think quite often about how more flavor might be introduced to a short-term dough. I know that there are chemical additives to do this sort of thing, as some bakers and commisaries use to create faux sourdough breads, but I would prefer natural ways--which I have yet to uncover.

Peter

Hi Peter,
sorry it took me so long to reply, had a busy month (including the celebrations for the world cup!)and haven't had much time to do experiments on pizzas.
I agree with what you said, and i absolutely don't question the conveniency of a quick-rise dough. Who wouldn't want to be able to have his pizza ready in a hour? ;)
My point is trying not to sacrifice digestibility and health in search for a better flavour. That is the reason i don't advice using an high gluten or bread flour for anything that hasn't been left maturing for at least 7-8 hours at room temperature.
For this reason yesterday i tried to make two quick NY pizzas , one using bread flour and the other using AP( in england is called Plain flour, i guess it's the same thing, 10,4% protein).

Both were made with same baker's percentages, being

63% warm water
1% oil
1,75% salt
0,5% IDY

The bread flour one used a slightly higher hydration, and yeast is an approximate value, as dealing with such small quantities is really difficult.

The procedure was the same for both, water in the bowl, IDY dissolved in it, half the flour all together, mixed it, and then added the rest of the flour spoon by spoon , mixing everytime till it was absorbed, leaving some for the hand kneading. Salt was added when 3/4 of the flour had been incorporated,  and oil as the very last thing. The dough was slighly under kneaded ( meaning in both cases i could have gone on for 3-5 minutes more). Everything was done on purpose with the quick rise in mind. I put the two balls in different bowl and let them rise in the same part of the kitchen(temperature was approximately around 25°C). If i had worked with bigger quantities, i would have let the dough bulk fermenting for 30 minutes and then shaped the balls with the least possible handling. Having just done 2 single pizzas, i just left them to rise for 3 hours. At the time they had doubled in size. I shaped them and baked them at 250°C (no stone unfortunately). I didn't care much about the dressing , being so focused on the crust , so they were just spiced tomato and cheddar cheese. They cooked for 8-9 minutes.

Results: surprisingly the APF had a better browning, better flavour and better texture than the BF one, and for these reason was the clear winner(conforted in my choice by my girlfriend, who had no clue on why i was being so obsessed about those pizzas.. ::) ). The only reason my little knowledge gives me is what i was speculating on in my previous posts, being that a fully developed (meaning matured) dough made with a lower quality flour is better than an "unready" one with bread flour.

I 'll have to repeat this experiment anyway, because i'm not as meticulous and consistent as you are, so i might have just put more effort in the AP one just to prove myself my point ;D

Bye!
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on July 16, 2006, 06:55:36 PM
Carlo,

Usually the biggest complaint you hear about short-term, few-hours doughs is the lack of real crust flavor, followed by light crust coloration and sub-par texture. You are one of the very few, along with pizzanapoletana (Marco), to mention the digestibility aspect on this forum. I, myself, was unaware of it until the chief pizza maker at Naples 45 in New York City mentioned it to me a few years ago while I was in the restaurant discussing pizza with him, and I remember being puzzled by it. When Marco subsequently mentioned it on this forum, that was only the second time I heard of it and it brought back my memory of my meeting with the Naples 45 pizzaiolo. So, I suspect that most people either aren't aware of the phenomenon or it simply isn't a factor or a concern for them, especially for those who are young and have cast-iron stomachs. And, for some, a pizza that can be made in a few hours is good enough reason to make the pizza, even though it might mean some discomfort from a digestibility standpoint. Having made several few-hours doughs over the last month or so, I can say that they would not be my first choice. As previoiusly indicated, I don't mind waiting for a dough to develop. I leave to others to decide whether to do the same thing.

You are correct that a higher protein/gluten flour can tolerate a longer fermentation time than a lower protein/gluten flour and this may reflect itself in results such as you experienced. But, since I have not done a side-by-side test such as you did, I look forward to the results of your next experiment on this subject. But, whatever the results, I think you have done the forum a service by once again bringing the digestibility issue to the attention of its members.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Wallman on July 18, 2006, 09:43:53 PM
Tom Lehmann meets Two-Buck Chuck.  Just for kicks I used about 3 oz. of Charles Shaw Cabernet in place of the equivalent amount of water in the basic Lehmann recipe.  I then cooked the pizza follow Pete's hot weather directions (short prebake, on a screen).  The pizza came out pink, but tasted pretty good, really not much flavor difference.  The crust was a little leathery due to the longer cooking time at lower temperature.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on July 18, 2006, 10:11:54 PM
Wally,

The pizza actually looks quite good :D. I have read about using wine in a pizza dough but have never actually tried it. You are unlikely to see pizza operators use either wine or beer in a pizza dough because of concerns that children will be eating the pizza--even though all that is left after the bake is flavor/color components but no alcohol.

Tom Lehmann addresses the use and limitations of using wine in pizza dough as follows, from http://www.pmq.com/cgi-bin/tt/index.cgi?noframes;read=17723:

How does having wine in a dough recpe do ?
: recipe is from Vogue magazine, Feb. 2005..
: water is 44%, white wine is 14%, in Baker's per
: centage

: Can I ferment iit in the cooler overnight in
: the standard way or use within 6 hours like
: a same day dough....

: I can supply other ingredient % if needed
: Otis
Otis;
The wine will be like the addition of a flavoring material. The fruity flavor of the wine may come through, and the flavor of the additional alcohol may also come through. Cooking wines are widely used even in baking. Cooking wine is less expensive than drinking wine as it has salt added to it to render it undrinkable, but in cooking/baking, the salt in the wine can be easily adjusted for by adding less salt to the product formulation. If I remember correctly, cooking wine has 2% salt added to it. One of our readers might be able to confirm or correct me on this. Until the total alcohol content reaches 11% in the dough it should perform normally. So I would say that you should be able to continue handling the dough with wine in your normal manner.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor


Peter



Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Wallman on July 18, 2006, 10:36:05 PM
To be honest, I was a little surprised that their wasn't more fruity flavor in the crust, the Two-Buck Chuck is a good wine to use for cooking, since it doesn't have extra salt and it doesn't taste too bad (certainly not at the price Trader Joe's charges).  The dough did rise for two days and there was no alcohol flavor.  I may play around with a white wine or beer to see how if affects the flavor and browning.  The red wine would make a good Valentine's Day pizza!

BTW, I'm heading to Pittsburgh this weekend and will be making a visit to Penn Mac to load up on tomatoes, cheese, meats and tomatoes -- although, I should have lots of home grown San Marzanos in a few weeks.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: abc on July 26, 2006, 06:26:58 PM
Pete, does Tom Lehmann not believe in an autolyze?   Do NY pizza places employ this technique? DiFaras?  PFTaylor comment?

Have there been any pizza operators that employ an autolyze?

I'll have to thumb through Reinhart's book again but I'm alomst certain he doesn't suggest employing an autolyze... and his book was built upon travels and time inside pizzerias...

Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on July 26, 2006, 07:58:50 PM
abc,

In October of 2004, I discussed the very subject you raised in some detail, at Reply 43 of this thread at Page 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg5475.html#msg5475. At the time of that post, I had done a search for the term “autolyse” at the PMQ Think Tank--which is a forum for professional pizza operators--and I was unable to find a single reference. When I repeated the search today at the original PMQ Think Tank (the archives, before the forum software was recently changed), I found one reference, in a question posed to Tom Lehmann, and I believe the term was actually misused by the poster. I believe I have read just about everything that Tom has written on the subject of dough and I have never seen any reference by him in writing to autolyse. If he had mentioned it, I would have surely noted it because I am sensitive to the topic. His failure to mention autolyse leads me to believe that autolyse is not a technique used by traditional pizza operators. Some Italian pizza operators apparently use a form of rest period, a riposo, but I don't know if that is considered a classical autolyse.

I might also add, however, that recently I discovered that the use of autolyse is increasing among artisanal pizza operators. The source of this revelation was Evelyne Slomon, who raised the subject in a post in a thread at the new PMQ Think Tank forum, at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?t=197. I posted in response to her post because of my interest in the subject, which led to an elaboration by Evelyne of the current status of autolyse among artisan pizza makers. You may find her remarks of interest, along with her other interesting comments on her personal experiences in the profession. BTW, if you saw the recent History Channel piece on pizza, you would have seen Evelyne in several segments of the program. 

To put matters in some perspective, autolyse was first mentioned on this forum in August 2003, and started to attract the membership’s interest in a serious way shortly after I joined the forum in early August of 2004. My first use of autolyse with a Lehmann dough was in early October of 2004. As far as Peter Reinhart’s book is concerned, he does call for use of rest periods. In his case, all the ingredients for many of his dough recipes are mixed together in a bowl before subjecting the dough to a brief rest period (I believe it is only 5 minutes). His rest period in not a classical autolyse as devised by Professor Calvel, but confers some of the same benefits as the classical autolyse. 

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Wallman on July 26, 2006, 09:24:16 PM
Reinhart does call for a 5 minute rest period in his recipes in American Pie.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: David on July 27, 2006, 12:56:20 AM


I might also add, however, that recently I discovered that the use of autolyse is increasing among artisanal pizza operators. The source of this revelation was Evelyne Slomon, who raised the subject in a post in a thread at the new PMQ Think Tank forum, at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?t=197. I posted in response to her post because of my interest in the subject, which led to an elaboration by Evelyne of the current status of autolyse among artisan pizza makers. You may find her remarks of interest, along with her other interesting comments on her personal experiences in the profession. BTW, if you saw the recent History Channel piece on pizza, you would have seen Evelyne in several segments of the program.  

Peter


Thanks Peter for the link .I was surprised to read the following comment:

"Finished dough does not have to be mixed until it is as smooth as a baby's bottom, it only needs to be mixed as far as cleaning the sides of the bowl and coming together. You can test a piece by stretching it over your knuckles, if it is elastic and stretches into a thin "veil" it is mixed enough, if it tears, it needs a bit more mixing time."

The only time my dough can be stretched out to resemble a veil is after about 16 hrs of fermentation! ;)
Is this a comment specifically about the Tom Lehmann style dough (which I've never attempted BTW)?

Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: abc on July 27, 2006, 09:13:27 AM
yes, that does read rather odd?  are we mixing biscuits? :chef:

anyway, back to the original question about ny street pizza places using a rest period (for their dough) or not... it does make sense to let the flour hydrate...  for some reason i'd be surprised if a rest period does not exist.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on July 27, 2006, 09:47:47 AM
David,

Evelyne was responding to a PMQ Think Tank poster who was using a spiral mixer, and there was no indication that a Lehmann dough was being made. I believe Evelyne was speaking rather generically when she wrote what you quoted.

What Tom Lehmann has stated in the past in respect of the desired characteristics of the finished dough is as follows (in italics), also in a rather generic sense:

You want to mix the dough just enough so that when you take an egg size piece of dough, and form it into a ball, then holding it in two hands, with the thumbs together (pointing away from you), and on top of the dough piece, gently pull the thumbs apart. The dough skin should not tear. If it tears, you should mix the dough a little longer. The dough will have a decidedly satiny appearance. Prior to the satiny appearance the dough will have more of a curdled appearance. Do not stretch the dough out between the fingers to form a gluten film. This test for development is for bread and roll doughs, not pizza. Pizza dough is not fully developed at the mixer, instead, it receives most of its development through biochemical gluten development (fermentation). After the dough has been in the cooler for about 24 hours, you should be able to stretch the dough in your fingers and form a very thin, translucent gluten film.

Of course, the above quote is with respect to use of a commercial mixer. Also, as you may know, Peter Reinhart is an advocate of using the “windowpane” test, along with an autolyse-like rest period. Since Peter’s experience comes primarily out of bread-making, it is not surprising that he would be an advocate of both the windowpane test and autolyse. Other culinary notables, including Jeffrey Steingarten and Alton Brown, also espouse the windowpane test.

I might also add that the type of flour used can be a factor. I know that you use a lot of 00 flour, David, and in my experience the types of tests mentioned above do not work as well as with a lower protein/gluten flour. Similarly, when cornmeal is mixed in with a flour.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on July 27, 2006, 09:55:52 AM
anyway, back to the original question about ny street pizza places using a rest period (for their dough) or not... it does make sense to let the flour hydrate...  for some reason i'd be surprised if a rest period does not exist.

abc,

It is possible that there may be some form of rest period since it takes a finite amount of time to take a large dough mass out of a mixer and divide and scale it into a large number of dough balls. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if the dough sometimes sits in the mixer for a while, whether intentional or not, before the division and scaling steps are implemented. In a sense, I suppose the "rest" would be like an Italian riposo.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: PizzaBrasil on July 27, 2006, 10:29:04 AM
I had baked TL style pizzas a long time ago. Even with fresh or instant yeast as pre ferment.
With and without autolyse.
The flour that I use to use is, I believe, a low protein one (there are not sufficient information about it)
I had never obtained a good windowpane test when just take the dough from mixing.
After a rest/rise period (with and without resting in refrigerator) the windowpane develop well.
In fact, I do not need to do this test, since shaping the dough shows clearly the develop of it.
I am pretty happy with this type of dough, even without windowpane!

Luis
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on July 27, 2006, 10:48:43 AM
Luis,

When I first started experimenting with and writing about the Lehmann dough, I advocated use of the windowpane test. That was because that was all I knew. Even now, there is nothing per se wrong with using the windowpane test. However, there is an increased chance that in trying to get the "perfect" windowpane, people will keep on kneading and end up overkneading the dough. With the typical KitchenAid or equivalent home stand mixer, we are unlikely in any event to get the type of finished dough that comes from using a commercial mixer, and even a high-end home mixer such as the DLX or Santos mixer.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: PizzaBrasil on July 27, 2006, 12:21:59 PM
Peter:

As always I agree with you.
I was only trying to explain that I felt myself hungry and/or frustrated because the dough never had passed the windowpane test (that not only you, as a lot of people advocate for).
In place of that, I decided to forget this test and go with the path to a better dough/pizza. No more frustrations, satisfaction in place. And better pizza each time. No matter about windowpane…
Of course, all and each of the threats in this site were read. Some ones applied and some others forgot (auch, I do need to read them again…)
The message is: no one sentence is permanent, no one fact will destroy the previous learned steps, and you always need to be ‘always learned’.
And: do not worry, be happy (extremes out, please)

Luis
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: David on July 27, 2006, 12:35:46 PM
I might also add that the type of flour used can be a factor. I know that you use a lot of 00 flour, David, and in my experience the types of tests mentioned above do not work as well as with a lower protein/gluten flour. Similarly, when cornmeal is mixed in with a flour.

Peter


Thanks Peter.You are right about my personal choices.and i have very little knowledge or experience of making other types of Pizza or using other ingredients.I'm still trying to nail a Neapolitan !
I will venture out in the future to other methods/doughs/ingredients.I just jumped to the assumption as this was in the TLNY thread.I believe it is extremely confusing,particularly to a newcomer,when you read these methods and procedures from "Authoroties" and yet inevitably do not achieve the desired results.I see that the person who raised the question was using a 12% protein flour.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: abc on July 27, 2006, 12:54:13 PM
abc,

It is possible that there may be some form of rest period since it takes a finite amount of time to take a large dough mass out of a mixer and divide and scale it into a large number of dough balls. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if the dough sometimes sits in the mixer for a while, whether intentional or not, before the division and scaling steps are implemented. In a sense, I suppose the "rest" would be like an Italian riposo.

Peter

yep, that's what i was thinking... they may say 'auto wat'??  but if you were allowed to watch them prep the dough in the back, you'd spot when the dough was 'resting'.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: abc on July 27, 2006, 01:03:20 PM
Luis,

When I first started experimenting with and writing about the Lehmann dough, I advocated use of the windowpane test. That was because that was all I knew. Even now, there is nothing per se wrong with using the windowpane test. However, there is an increased chance that in trying to get the "perfect" windowpane, people will keep on kneading and end up overkneading the dough. With the typical KitchenAid or equivalent home stand mixer, we are unlikely in any event to get the type of finished dough that comes from using a commercial mixer, and even a high-end home mixer such as the DLX or Santos mixer.

Peter

ouch... so a commerical mixer will give a less oxidized, yet more well churned batch of flour and water?  (better developed gluten?)

if we use a kitchenaid and get it 'finished enough' as a commerical dough, it's going to have more oxygen than a commercial dough?

on the other hand, aren't pizza doughs not supposed to be as mixer developed as bread dough (the opininon of one)


how do we compensate at home with a product of a kitchenaid, being so 'inadequate'?   :-\


longer time in the refridgerator?
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on July 27, 2006, 02:34:16 PM
abc,

Since I don't work with commercial mixers, I can't tell you how much they oxidize the flour/dough during mixing/kneading. However, I do know that some kinds of commercial mixers do a better job of introducing oxygen into the dough than others. The oxygen is necessary for the yeast to start to reproduce, and the yeast dutifully gobbles up all the oxygen in fairly short order. It's excessive kneading of the dough that oxidizes the flour/dough and damages carotenoids. Interestingly, this brings us back to your earlier post about using autolyse. If you want to reduce oxidation of the dough, then autolyse is one way to do it because one of its benefits is to reduce the total knead time, thereby reducing the extent of possible oxidation. Another way to reduce the oxidation is to put the salt into the dough early, as discussed at this King Arthur piece on salt: http://www.kingarthurflour.com/professional/salt.html. However, doing this with an autolyse is generally discouraged because of the effects of salt on yeast and other ingredients in the dough during the autolyse.

As for the typical home KitchenAid stand mixer, beyond stepping up to a DLX, Santos or other comparable mixer (maybe even one of the high-end KitchenAid models with a C-hook) or even a low-level commercial mixer, I believe the best way to use it is to 1) combine the ingredients in the early stages to increase hydration of the flour without trying to develop the gluten (which means either mixing by hand or at low mixer speed, such as Stir or 1 speed), and then 2) using low/medium mixer speeds (mostly speeds 1 and 2) to do the kneading in the final stages to develop the gluten without overkneading the dough. This is somewhat an oversimplified version of the methods I use and have described at Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.msg19563.html#msg19563. Using an autolyse in the context of these methods is also an option but some rearrangement of the steps may be required depending on whether one wishes to use the classic autolyse or some variation of it.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: abc on July 27, 2006, 09:20:43 PM
quite fascinating stuff...  Pete, what do you feel if anything, is holding your own pizza, from sitting at the counter of some street corner pizzeria?



i was experimenting with a 30min rest this evening...  pizza dough, that is.

i put water first into the mix bowl, then topped with KASL and yeast... mixed until there was no dry flour, which took about 2min for 2 18" doughs... then let it rest 30min.  at that point i added salt and oil and mixed maybe another 2 min... i couldn't tell where i was going with the mixing, that's why i stopped at about 2 min.

before i added the oil and salt, i felt the dough and it felt satiny... i was doing a quick non elaborate window pane test and it seemed possible.

DEFINITELY used less electrical mixing to get this satin feel vs. a non rested dough...

i'm going to leave this in the fridge for at least 48hrs because i won't be free to be in the kitchen this weekend... i might not make pizza out of it, maybe breadsticks... but thought I'd report my findings in mixing dough.

As usual, I use iced water to keep temps cool as per spec on the lehmann recipe... but with a 30min rest... the dough in this summer temp, lost its coolness...  Hope this isn't going to impact my product and confuse the analysis of the final product.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on July 27, 2006, 10:05:41 PM
abc,

That's an interesting question. I have always felt that the weakest links in the home pizza maker's chain are the mixer and the oven, and that the strongest link is the ingredients, which can be the same as or even better than what professional pizza operators use. But, like most of our members, I have tried to get the most out of my mixer and oven and, in many cases, I would say that my pizzas are better than many that I have bought, including in New York City. Even when I have had to play around with screens and stones and tiles and rack positions and oven temperatures, broilers, and times, I have been able to get satisfying pizzas in just about any size I want, from 9 inches all the way up to 18 inches in size, which, as you know, is a typical NY size. Of course, where you live in the NYC area there are some of the finest pizza operators in the country, and it is quite likely that my pizzas would come up short by comparison. But, that has never been a concern. What interests me more is being to make many different kinds of pizzas and have fun doing it.

You also raise a good point about the dough temperature. When the temperature is warm, as it has been in many parts of the country lately, using a long autolyse or other rest period will allow the dough to warm up faster and possibly exceed the desired finished dough temperature, even when the water is quite cool to begin with. If you end up with a finished dough temperature of around 80 degrees F, you should still be OK. But, if you are over 90 degrees for some reason, then the dough will ferment quite a bit faster and possibly foreshorten its useful life by a few to several hours. And it might be more extensible than usual. That's why it is a good idea to use cool water. Shortening the autolyse to around 20 minutes will also help, as will using a slightly bit less yeast, or simply adding the yeast after the autolyse, which will delay the start of the fermentation process yet retain the benefits of the autolyse.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: enchant on July 29, 2006, 07:43:53 AM
You should feel free to tweak the amounts of flour and water. For the sake of consistency, I always start with accurate amounts weighed on my digital scale but almost always make slight adjustments in the bowl to compensate for the minor variations in flour due to age, moisture content, humidity, storage effects, etc.
[ ... ]
What is most important is to be able to identify the condition of the dough that leads to the best results. That comes with experience and practice and no amount of words or photos can convey that condition with precision. But once you achieve a successful dough on a repeatable basis, you will always remember it and be able to replicate it pretty much at will. Even then, the dough will not be identical every time but the variations will be small.
After making several doughs, I was getting comfortable about how the dough should look as it was finishing up mixing.  I found that there should be a very small amount that wanted to stick to the bottom of the bowl (while the rest clung to the dough hook).

Last week, during the very high humidity, I made a dough that seemed a little wet after adding ingredients in the usual amounts.  I added flour till it was the consistency that I was used to (a little clinging to the bowl).  However, when I went to shape it two days later, it seemed pretty wet and was difficult to handle.

During the high humidity, should I be trying to make my dough dryer than normal?  So even though it appears in the mixer to have the consistency that was giving me great results in May and June, should I be going for even dryer than that?

And is the worst summer ever for making pizzas???
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on July 29, 2006, 09:26:02 AM
Pat,

The subject of humidity is one that draws a lot of strong opinion, but in my opinion humidity gets blamed more often than it really deserves. To be sure, humidity is a factor, as I noted recently in another thread (on the moisture content of flour) by quoting the following from industry technical data:

If the relative humidity of the atmosphere in which it is stored is greater than 60%, flour will gain moisture, and if the humidity is less than 60%, it will lose moisture.

However, the effects of humidity are not wildly dramatic, amounting to only a few percent at best according to the source of the above quote. And in most cases, it can be compensated for by making fairly minor adjustments to the flour and/or water, especially if the flour and water are carefully weighed out in advance. In your case, absent human error in weighing out the flour and water, I think it was a finished dough temperature that may have been too high that caused the problem you encountered--specifically, because of an accelerated rate of fermentation due to the higher finished dough temperature. The same thing can happen if you used volume measurements rather than weights, so it is not simply a matter of how the flour and water are measured out.

To avoid the above type of problem, my practice is to temperature adjust the water I use to be sure that the finished dough temperature is around 75 degrees F. In most cases, I actually do a mathematical calculation to determine the water temperature required to get that finished dough temperature, but in some cases I just use cooler water in the summer and warmer water in the winter. But, either way, I always measure the finished dough temperature in relation to the 75 degrees F targeted finished dough temperature. Knowing the actual dough temperature tells me how long the dough is likely to be usable, and prompts me to use the dough earlier or later than I may have originally planned based on the differential and its direction (above or below 75 degrees).

An alternative way of dealing with the seasonal variations discussed above is to use a bit less yeast in the summer and a bit more in winter, usually accompanied by using cooler water in the summer and warmer water in the winter. This combination, if properly applied, should keep the dough from overfermenting in the summer and underfermenting in the winter and allow the doughs to be used within their normal windows of usability. This combination also helps to compensate in part for the fact that a refrigerator is likely to run a bit warmer in the summer and a bit cooler in the winter, both of which will affect the rate of fermentation.

The condition of the dough as you described it is consistent with overfermentation of the dough. What happens is that the enzymes in the flour, namely the protease enzymes, attack the gluten and cause the release of water, resulting in a wet and overly slack dough that is hard to handle, even if you try to compensate by adding additional flour. Had you used the dough a day earlier, I think you might have been OK.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on July 29, 2006, 10:30:50 AM
Pat,

To further underscore the point I made about finished dough temperature in my last post, you may find Replies 5-8, and especially those of member Trinity, of interest, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3386.msg28689.html#msg28689. Trin is a professional baker who deals with finished dough temperatures all the time and is well familiar with the effects of seasonal variations.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: abc on July 29, 2006, 01:05:45 PM
abc,


You also raise a good point about the dough temperature. When the temperature is warm, as it has been in many parts of the country lately, using a long autolyse or other rest period will allow the dough to warm up faster and possibly exceed the desired finished dough temperature, even when the water is quite cool to begin with. If you end up with a finished dough temperature of around 80 degrees F, you should still be OK. But, if you are over 90 degrees for some reason, then the dough will ferment quite a bit faster and possibly foreshorten its useful life by a few to several hours. And it might be more extensible than usual. That's why it is a good idea to use cool water. Shortening the autolyse to around 20 minutes will also help, as will using a slightly bit less yeast, or simply adding the yeast after the autolyse, which will delay the start of the fermentation process yet retain the benefits of the autolyse.

Peter

pete, examining my current batch of kasl dough with the rest technique, it looks like it has risen a bit more in the fridge than usual (w/o rest) either this was due to 30min at 82degree kitchen (which i had temped the final dough) or the auto technique promotes a more fluid rise, and i can get by w/ even LESS yeast....
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: SLICEofSLOMON on July 29, 2006, 05:07:45 PM
Hi,

I'm just going to make a few very quick suggestions to the current discussion about temperature, autolyse, room temperature rise and refrigerated rise and about mixing for direct mixed doughs (indirect contain preferments, starters, etc and have different techniques and considerations)

Pete, you are very right to assume mixing in a commercial mixer, using a commercial batch size is a very different animal than mixing up enough dough for 1 or 2 pizzas. There are surely many similarities, but different considerations must be applied. As you mentioned, humidity has much less to do with it, if the ingredients are weighed out. Temperature is the factor to be recalculated. I look to have a lower finished dough temperature than Tom, who recommends 80-85 degrees. I prefer a finished dough temp of 70-75...I'll get to why soon. I usually start out with a water temperature of 60-65 and in
the summer, or if the kitchen is particularly hot, 50 degrees. My goal is to keep my dough as cool as possible and to avoid as much mixing friction as possible. I only take flour temperatures when I suspect it is either ultra hot or ultra cold in the kitchen and I may have to compensate with the water temperature. Otherwise, I only take the water temperature and finished dough temp.

That being said, the heat build up from mixing friction in a commercial mixer is pretty rapid and once the dough mass gets warm, it takes longer for it to cool down, so trying to keep it cooler in the first place is always my goal. In a small mixer, friction should be less of a factor, except that most home cooks (and commercial ones too) tend to over-mix and the doughs come off the mixer warmer than they should. Because I want to undergo long slow fermentation, it is imperative that the dough be cooler than what is usually recommended.

Here are some mixing pointers for a small mixer:
invest in a scale and always weigh out everything in your formula (I know it seems like a pain, but it is the only true way to gain absolute consistency)

make sure your water temperature is around 65 degrees (if you are using bakers yeast, the lower temperature won't be a problem, but if using ADY and IDY you may want to hydrate the yeasts in a bit of the formula water that is warm. (in commercial situations, IDY can be sprinkled right into the flour, but for small batches such as for home use, the dough mass will be remain too cool to properly activate the yeast.)

pour all of the water in to the bowl of your mixer (reserving the hydrated yeast) add the salt and then the flour, and then crumble the cake yeast or add the hydrated yeast.

Mix on the low speed if possible or only until there is no white raw flour visible. Allow to rest for 5 minutes. This is the adaptation of the autolyse method in pizza making. Italian pizza makers refer to this period as riposo. Pizza dough requirements are slightly different than bread dough, but essentially, the rest period allows the flour to become fully hydrated which is otherwise known as biochemical gluten development. This "rest" period differs in time depending upon mixer types, batch sizes and ambient room temperature. For a small home batch, with a home mixer, 5 minutes should be sufficient.

BGD will aid in shortening mix out time and promotes less degrading of protein while contributing to the extensibilty properties and the over-all tenderness of the finished product.

Mix out time will vary with type of flour, hydration level and batch size. (I am talking about a dough of 65% hydration using a 12.5-13% protein content--American flour, not 00)
Rather than being a slave to time, which is different for every formulation, you must learn to see, hear and feel the signs that  your dough has properly mixed out. Once you've developed the dough in this manner, you can time each sequence. However, if you change anything in the formula, then the sequence and timing may change too.

When using a planetary style mixer (like a kitchen aid), try to use a very, very slow speed. It is not necessary to knock the dough about the bowl. Mix until the dough pulls away from the sides of the bowl and you hear a gentle smacking and sucking sound as the dough pushes and pulls from the sides of the bowl.

The dough may appear to have a dimpled cottage cheese texture--this is fine. If you take out a silver dollar size ball of dough, lightly flatten it and roll it over your knuckles, you will see that it either tears or it stretches. If it tears, a bit more mixing time is needed. (this is not the gluten vale test , the dough is not stretched out to that point, we are not looking at it's extensibility qualities, we only want to see if it is properly mixed out.)

Working at home you can do 2 things at this point: you can continue mixing until the dough is smooth, or you can finish it by hand.
Why finish by hand? because for such a small amount, especially if you are using a kitchen aid type mixer, you want to treat the dough as gently as possible.
Also,if temperature is a factor, take the temperature of the dough before you actually finish it. If it is at or beyond your goal, finish the dough by hand and it won't raise it too much higher.
if you are under your goal, finish it in the mixer.

Bench rest, or room temperature fermentation or first rise: how long? Commercial pizzerias bench rest or let the dough rise in bulk to save fermentation time in the refrigerator. Allowing dough to initially rise at room temperature hastens the maturation qualities that would be found in say a two or three day dough, but because they need to use the dough within 36, they give it a long initial unrefrigerated fermentation period. The understanding is that, this long initial rise will hasten the deveopment, but will decrease total life of the dough. It really depends upon what the shop's production needs are.

For a small home batch, the temperature factor becomes super crucial in that the small piece of dough will rise much faster in higher temperatures and will expend itself fairly quickly. Unless you are going to use the next day, or the room temperature is quite low--or that the amount of yeast and starter compensates for it, bench rising isn't all that necessary for small batches of dough.

Bakers and commercial pizza makers have a set schedule every day, so they know exactly what amount of time and at what temperature they will, or won't bench rise their dough.  Most of them do not bench rise, they prefer the controlled environment of the cooler, allowing for a long slow first rise in the bucket, and scalling and shaping 12 hours later. Others scale and shape right off the bat and refrigerate to use 24 to 36 hours later. There is no set way.

In AIB (Tom) recommends the dough to come off the mixer at 80 degrees optimum, this is for a straight mixed dough, that is immediately scaled, shaped and refrigerarated by cross stacking the dough trays for a couple of hours until the doughs completely cooled down. The dough is ready to use the next day with a maximum of 2 days and possibly 3 if the cooler is really, really cold. If you are working with any kind of preferment or starter, that temperature is way, too high...

The main problem with this forum, is that you guys are so prolific and so varied that I'm not sure how to address all of the things that are going on here. I'm not sure if what I've just written will be of any help. But if you come away from this with anything, it will be about the importance of temperature. Adapting home versions of commercial formulas is a challenge, but is extremely rewarding.

Evelyne


Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on July 29, 2006, 06:30:42 PM
Evelyne,

For the most part, what you have said is consistent with what I have done and recommended to others with respect to the Lehmann NY style dough. Like you, I started with a finished dough temperature target of about 80-85 degrees F, per the recommendation of Tom, but later went to 75 degrees F when it dawned on me that a home refrigerator operated several degrees warmer than a commercial cooler. Since the Lehmann NY style dough formulation was intended to be used in a cold fermentation environment, the general advice has been to use the cold fermentation and get the dough balls as fast as possible into the refrigerator. I and others have made same-day, room-temperature fermented versions of the Lehmann dough, including 2-3 hour doughs and even naturally leavened versions, but most of the doughs tend to be cold fermented doughs using commercial yeast (mostly ADY and IDY because of their greater availability and lower cost to home pizza makers).

I found 65+% hydration to be too high for the Lehmann dough and ended up with 63%, which seemed to be the optimum for my purposes. I, too, have recommended using low mixer speeds, and being careful not to overknead. I am an advocate of using scales to weigh flour and water, although many of our members prefer to use volume measurements. I use a spreadsheet and baker's percents to do all the heavy math lifting and, for some time, have specified ingredients in the dough formulations I post by weight and volumes. I didn't want only scale users to make the Lehmann doughs. As much as anything I do on this forum, my objective is to teach people as best I can about dough making, just as Tom and you have done for many years. I'd like people to know the whys in addition to the hows because I think it will make them better pizza makers.

I personally am not as big an advocate or fan as others of using autolyse with the basic Lehmann dough although I have liked it when using a natural preferment. To me, the crumb is too soft and bread-like. But I seem to be in the minority on this matter. I will agree, however, that autolyse is a good way of getting good hydration, especially for hand-kneaded doughs using high-protein, high-gluten flours as are most commonly used by our members for Lehmann doughs, along with bread flour.

Where I see one point of departure from what you have said is in relation to the use of IDY. On occasions where the amount of IDY was so small (e.g., less than 1/8 t.) that I chose to hydrate it for dispersion purposes, my usual practice and recommendation has been to add the IDY directly to the flour, as is typically recommended by the yeast producers for home use. I usually add the IDY to the flour as soon as I weight out the flour and assumed that there would be at least partial hydration due to the moisture in the flour, as is frequently mentioned by the yeast producers.

Thank you for helping crystallize the processes for our members.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: abc on July 30, 2006, 03:19:23 PM
pete, you find a rested dough doesn't give your dough as many 'rustic' air pockets of varying size? 

i wonder what then if there is in the science of what happens?  a better hydrated, less mixed dough has more uniform, nonvaried air pockets?


i didn't find this to be the case with my recent kasl dough which i made breadsticks with., I got interesting airpockets, 48hr rise.


Evelyne, when can we examine pictures of YOUR pizzas?  :pizza:
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on July 30, 2006, 04:06:57 PM
abc,

If I understood your question correctly, I take it that you are referring to the resting of the dough on the bench in preparation for dressing and baking the pizza.

It's hard to generalize on the matter of bubbling in the crust since there can be many causes beyond whether the dough was or was not subjected to a period of rest before using. As I noted recently on another thread, the main causes of bubbling are the following: 1) Underfermentation or overfermentation of the dough (with underfermentation being the more common); 2) Using dough that is too cold at the time of shaping; 3) Using too little or too much yeast (with too much being more common); 4) Using incorrect or insufficient docking; and 5) Using an oven temperature that is too high, or some other oven-related problem. Of course, any combination of these will also produce the tendency to bubbling.

I have also discovered that there is sometimes an element of mystery surrounding bubbling. You often get them when you least expect them, and it is often difficult to diagnose the cause. Also, some dough formulations are more prone to bubbling than others, which can confound attempts to diagnose. The Lehmann dough inherently doesn't seem to be prone to bubbling. Also, in your case, if you followed the normal dough processing steps with the Lehmann dough and you didn't use docking it seems safe to rule out reasons 2 through 5 based on what you said. That leave reason 1--underfermentation or overfermentation. As between underfermentation and overfermentation, overfermentation strikes me as clearly the more likely suspect after 48 hours of fermentation in a warm, summertime setting. Remember, overfermentation comes in degrees, from mild to severe/fatal. With slight overfermentation, you could have gotten bubbles without affecting the overall quality of the breadsticks (or a pizza).

The degree of hydration that you mention can be a factor but only insofar as a high hydration dough will ferment faster than a low hydration dough. But it is not a cause of overfermentation as such. Similarly, an underkneaded dough will also be a factor because an underkneaded dough will usually not ferment as fast as a properly kneaded dough, but, again, it is not a cause of overfermentation.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: SLICEofSLOMON on July 30, 2006, 05:36:52 PM
ABC

Do you mean air pockets as in open hole cell structure of the crumb or bubbles that occur in the crust that occur during baking? It seems that Peter was talking about bubbling.

If you are talking about the cell structure of the crumb, the open hole structure is achieved with a higher hydration--at least 60%. Some formulas achieve that same structure with a bit less moisture (58%) but they generally contain a preferment of some kind. If you are looking to utilize high hydration, it will be important to use a flour that has high extensibility and gassing properties. You will also have to use high baking temperatures to get the oven spring necessary for those results.

The autolyse method, as I have adapted to pizza making is really about achieving proper hydration of the flour and creating a dough that will mix out quicker and with much less agitation. These techniques I learned from bread baking, but when applied to pizza, different results are desired. When I teach this method to proffesional pizza makers, I use Tom's definition for the process: Biochemical Gluten Development or BGD as it applies to pizza. The initial BGD rest occurs at the start of the mixing process and since it tends to keep the dough temperature down. I highly recommend trying to keep the dough temperatures as cool as possible for doughs that are to go under long slow fermentation. Minimizing the mixing also helps to promote the open hole cell structure as well. If you are using miniscule amounts of yeast, I would skip the bench rest, unless you plan on using the dough within 24-36 hours--or sooner.

The latest pizza I made was last week for PMQ which I will include since it is made with my dough, but baked in my home oven in a black pan at about 450 degrees. For the magazine, I go for a generic NY look, so the lovely open hole structure that I normally achieve is not brought out in these pies. When I'm styling for the magazine, I'm looking to have a more even colored and uniform type of pizza because the story is really about the topping. So bare that in mind. Until I have time to go and photograph one of my pizzas, if you have a chance to see any of the reruns from the History Channel Pizza thing, they show my pizza in lovely detail pretty much all over the episode. It's the pie with the charred puffy edges, handmade cheese (mine), hand crushed tomatoes and beautiful basil leaves. It got so well done because the camera man was filming and filming it in the oven, despite my protests that it was about to become a thermal runaway. The camera crew devoured that pizza seconds after they filmed it!


Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: abc on July 31, 2006, 11:10:59 AM
abc,

If I understood your question correctly, I take it that you are referring to the resting of the dough on the bench in preparation for dressing and baking the pizza.

It's hard to generalize on the matter of bubbling in the crust since there can be many causes beyond whether the dough was or was not subjected to a period of rest before using. As I noted recently on another thread, the main causes for bubbling are the following: 1) Underfermentation or overfermentation of the dough (with underfermentation being the more common); 2) Using dough that is too cold at the time of shaping; 3) Using too little or too much yeast (with too much being more common): 4) Using incorrect or insufficient docking; and 5) Using an oven temperature that is too high, or some other oven-related problem. Of course, any combination of these will also produce the tendency to bubbling.

Peter

oh no pete... i started referring to the autolyse as a 'rest' a few posts back, and i meant the autolyse during the dough prep, not during the dough maturation process.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on July 31, 2006, 11:20:03 AM
abc,

Thanks for clarifying what you meant. When you didn't use the term "autolyse", I thought you shifted gears and wanted to get more bubbles in the crust and were joining other members of the forum, such as bolabola and Randy, who invite big bubbles. Now that I re-read your post, I can see that it is consistent with your earlier posts. Since Evelyne was more perceptive than I and answered your questions, especially with respect to high hydration and underkneading, I don't know that I can add anything further. At the least, you got a mini-tutorial on bubbles ;D. Sometime, just for fun, I might try to make a Lehmann dough that is intentionally full of big bubbles.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: abc on July 31, 2006, 11:22:24 AM
ABC

Do you mean air pockets as in open hole cell structure of the crumb or bubbles that occur in the crust that occur during baking? It seems that Peter was talking about bubbling.

If you are talking about the cell structure of the crumb, the open hole structure is achieved with a higher hydration--at least 60%. Some formulas achieve that same structure with a bit less moisture (58%) but they generally contain a preferment of some kind. If you are looking to utilize high hydration, it will be important to use a flour that has high extensibility and gassing properties. You will also have to use high baking temperatures to get the oven spring necessary for those results.



Hi Evelyn... I meant the former... that is, not the bubbles that occur on the crust during baking but the inner network of holes (which some people dont like but i like.) i think Pete was saying his experience with autolyse yields a pizza dough w/ the fine, small, uniform look of say whitebread instead of a rustic ciabatta...

as pete said:  "I personally am not as big an advocate or fan as others of using autolyse with the basic Lehmann dough although I have liked it when using a natural preferment. To me, the crumb is too soft and bread-like. But I seem to be in the minority on this matter."

in my recent batch just 3 days ago, i didn't find a whitebread like uniform hole structure...  and to me, it made some logical sense in that if the autolyse allows you to mix less, and mixing too much takes you away from rustic, and into uniform...  why wouldn't a autolysed dough have more varied holes when baked.


You mentioned requiring high oven temps to get the necessary oven spring... are you talking high temps as in 550degrees, (perhaps the 'key' temp for this forum), vs. supposedly how a good many street pizza shops have their ovens at below that temp, perhaps 450degrees, (yet are able to get airy crusts with a lot of spring?)
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: abc on July 31, 2006, 11:33:24 AM
ABC

The autolyse method, as I have adapted to pizza making is really about achieving proper hydration of the flour and creating a dough that will mix out quicker and with much less agitation. These techniques I learned from bread baking, but when applied to pizza, different results are desired. When I teach this method to proffesional pizza makers, I use Tom's definition for the process: Biochemical Gluten Development or BGD as it applies to pizza. The initial BGD rest occurs at the start of the mixing process and since it tends to keep the dough temperature down. I highly recommend trying to keep the dough temperatures as cool as possible for doughs that are to go under long slow fermentation. Minimizing the mixing also helps to promote the open hole cell structure as well. If you are using miniscule amounts of yeast, I would skip the bench rest, unless you plan on using the dough within 24-36 hours--or sooner.


i have a question... you brought a bread baking technique into pizza dough making... and you teach this method to professional pizza makers... does this mean, and in your observation of NY pizza places... there wasn't a history of employing this technique with pizza dough?  Granted, as Pete suggested a few days ago, when making a large commerical batch, a unintentional rest period might kick in naturally as part of the batch process.

I think in another post, you mentioned years ago you learned the dough craft from lombardi and totonnos, the dying craft...  did they not use a autolyse method?  Though their pizzas are not typical gas oven temp pizzas (at least Lombardis)... perhaps whether they did or not is not as significant to me since i'm making gas oven (home) pizzas... but i'm curious from a curiosity standpoint.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: SLICEofSLOMON on July 31, 2006, 04:16:27 PM
Hi ABC,

When I learned how to make dough from Lombardi and Pero, and later from Pete Castelloti at Johns, and from what I have observed from pizza makers at the time--no one was observing A: giving the dough a rest before it was to be finished kneading, and B: no one was using any kind of starter or preferment. Jerry Pero prepared his dough early in the morning and left it out all day to rise. If you went there on a Saturday or Sunday when they served pizza all day, the pizzas prepared later in the day were the best.  Lombardi (the grandson) on the otherhand had adapted the formula to include refrigeration, and room temperature bulk first rise. The other thing that differentiated Pero's dough was that he employed a lower gluten flour 12-12.50 and everybody else was using high gluten 13+.

The thing about the original Lombardi formula as followed by Jerry Pero is that is came from a period that predated refrigeration--lots of pizza makers still follow the same technique, just as they have always done. However, even for the sake of authenticity, in a commercial situation, the technique is flawed because the pizzas produced earlier in the day are not consistent with the results of longer fermentation and they are not as light. But, 30 years ago, I would never quarrel with the master, all I knew was that I wanted to harness the peak perfection that the evening pizzas attained.


Lombardi was using the method his Grandfather, the original Gennaro had adapted to a mixer and to refrigeration in the 50's, however, this adaptation also featured a very high gluten flour, which became the favorite of pizza makers in NYC. Pero continued to use the lower protein flour of the original formula. So I combined the best of both methods: I used the lower protein flour, gave it a long first bulk raise at room temp, refrigerated it in bulk another 12 hours then scaled and formed, and the dough was ready to use 8-12 hours later. (24-36 hours in all before using) This gave me the best qualities of the original formula but now with consistent commercial results. The flour played an huge role in the success of the recipe. The average pizza maker in NYC favors the ultra high protein flour because it has great oven spring, and that's what they've traditionally used. But high protein flour produces a crust that is really, chewy and not tender. As it cools, it becomes hard. Pero's pizza was thin, crisp, pleasantly chewy and light becuase of the slightly lower protein content of the flour. (PS ask any one at Totonnos about this and they will NEVER give away any details about their formula--they even repackage their flour into plain brown bags so the brand won't be given away!!) Fortunately for me, when I got to Jerry, he wasn't famous and once I penetrated that gruff exterior, he was more than willing to share his knowledge.

So, that was my adaptation of the Original Lombardi formula, which was to basically stick to the ingredients but to apply the long, slow fermentation to get the same results on a consistent commercial level. Basically, I had to bridge the old with the new. Now, let's talk about the process I adapted--no one else was doing it--not the old timers and certainly not the average pizza guy. The flavor, texture, color and consistency I achieved was through the direct mix method and long fermentation. The few old timers that were left, made their dough in the morning and used it 6-8 hours later. What developed out of that, was that pizza makers turned to dough enhancers and conditioners to hasten their fresh dough process to 3-4 hours because they did not want to wait. The few old timers that utilized a combination of bench or bulk rise and refrigerated rise rarely held the dough for more 12 hours. They knew the dough could last longer in the coole but not too long because they were pushing too much yeast in their formula to have it last much longer than 24 hours.

In the late 70's, over night fermentation was really not widely practised. In the mid-eithties, when I first started teaching and giving seminars for Pizza Expo and writing for Pizza Today, when I would talk about the principles and benefits of long slow fermentation, I was widely thought of as an eccentric oddity. Pizza makers could not wrap themselves around the idea of waiting--they wanted to make dough "fresh" every day. I told them they were making fresh dough every day, it just wouldn't be used until 36 hours later. They mostly thought it was way too much trouble and not worth the effort.

In the eighties, when the "gourmet" pizza revolution was taking place, everyone was into topping centric pizza, the crust was superfluous. To the average pizza guy, flour was what they purchased from their distributor under a private lable at the cheapest price. The problem with that is that distributors slap their lables on whatever bulk flour they purchase, so the pizza makers formulas were always out of whack, to "fix" their problems, the pizza makers turned to conditioners and additives to make it work. It was (and still is) is vicious circle. That is when I started to apply bread baking techniques to pizza. Back then, the term artisan bread had not yet caught on nationally but I was spending a lot of time in Berkeley with friends since the mid 70's and was influenced by what Steve Sullivan at Acme Bread was doing. I was also a fan of Raymond Calvel's teachings (by the way Peter, he did pass away last summer some time). I recognized the similarities of the characteristics of rustic breads and to the Lombardi formula--which had been influenced by the baking methodology of that period. I began to handle the dough differently, I started giving it a rest in a similar fashion  as the autolyse method and I started to mix my dough on low speed only and for a very short time. This is what I put together from what I knew about artisan bread baking. Was I scientific about it, did I compare vital statistics--formula percentages--no. At that point, no one was using baker's percent for pizza, it was all based on volumetric--touch and feel. Sure, the chains had formulas, but the average pizza maker mostly made dough by the seat of their pants. The old masters didn't weigh out anything, they took whatever volume container: can or banged up pitcher, poured the water in by the number, dumped a sack of flour into the mixer, a scoop of salt and a piece of baker's yeast. (sugar and oil, if used, were also administered hapazardly). Because of this lack of structure, the dough would vary widely. The masters, who knew their dough could cope, because their years of experience guided them when to add a little more or less of something. The new guys didn't have that kind of experience,nor were they willing to put the time or effort into learning about their doughs. I used to tell people in seminars, you must spend at least a full year of making the dough everyday, through all of the seasons, to really master it. Again, people thought I was nuts.

When I went to Italy to judge the World Pizza Championships in the early 90's, I had the opportunity to go to Italian pizza school in Carole near Venice. I also spent several weeks travelling around to visit with many pizza makers. While 99% of the guys I worked with, made the dough in the morning and used it just a few hours later, their techniques were intrigingly different. That is where I actually saw pizza makers using a riposo technique (which I had come to on my own through my bread making experience). They also used spiral mixers which gently agited the dough. I had never seen these mixers in a pizzeria back in the states. I had been practising the same kind of thing on my own--in a kind of pizza making vacuum.

When I hooked up with Tom and gave him my formula for traditional New York pizza, it was not what I was personally producing. I knew that my approach was certainly too complicated for the average American pizza maker, so I gave him the formula that would produce  the best deck oven type pizza--like a DeMarco type, only I called for an overnight refrigerated fermentation, so it was basically a 24 hour dough. I know that DeMarco uses a same day dough, but the formula I gave Tom would produce similar results but more consistently. What I came away with from AIB was the scientific knowledge behind the techniques--after that, there was no stopping me!

When I was hanging out with Ron Wirtz at AIB, we would spend hours talking about applying artisan bread techniques to pizza and that is when I became interested in preferments. I did a lot of experimenting on my own with these techniques and taught chefs and some interested pizza makers how to make pizza utilizing these methods. Unfortunately, there just wasn't a whole lot of interest in this kind of pizza making.  Historically, there has been a real prejudice against pizza as a culinary art form, but fortunately, that is rapidly changing--finally! I Pizza Today was not interested in letting me write about these techniques because they thought that only chefs would be interested and that it was way above the average pizza maker's head. What it boiled down to was that it didn't represent a big enough "market". So I kept at it, experimenting, refining and talking with anyone who would call, write or e[mail me about it. People would seek me out if they really wanted to know about the old methods--the traditional methods--long before "artisan" pizza came on the scene.

When I worked for Grande Cheese, I got to travel all over the USA and visited thousands of pizza shops. That is where I got first hand experience of what the average independent pizza maker was doing on a national level. Grande employed me to help their endusers to improve their product through ingredients and technique. I did that for 15 years and the experience was priceless. I've always been objective about what makes great pizza. The type of rareified pizza that I did personally and what a small circle of old timers and passionate pizzaiolos thought of as the "art" of pizza was not what the average Joe was doing in their shop. Does that mean, they can't make great pizza? Hey is that like comparing the Mona Lisa to Warhol's Cambell's soup cans--they are both great art, but on different levels and they appeal to different tastes. The same with great pizza. My goal has been to has been to make the average pizza maker more aware of the quality of their ingredients and to learn the techniques that will help them to make pure pizza without chemical crutches. Now that the number of pizza "eccentrics" seems to be on the rise, I will be more public about championing the artisan cause and with PMQ behind me, I will have the platform to get out there.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on August 01, 2006, 08:09:45 PM
Today, at Reply 7 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2462.msg28923.html#msg28923, I described my efforts to make an 11-in Lehmann pizza using a Deni 2300 counter pizza oven. What I was hoping for was a simple way of making a pizza during the summer without heating up my oven, especially when using a pizza stone requiring a long preheat. While the initial results look promising, it may take a while to determine whether it will be possible to make a Lehmann pie worthy of posting on this thread.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: DNA Dan on August 02, 2006, 01:59:51 PM
Can someone in control of the "recipe" section update the Lehman NY style recipe?

The description mentions adding sugar, yet there is no listing of percentages in the ingredients section. Also, there are tons of great variations that people have done firsthand in this thread. It would be really nice to have an "adaptation" section of the recipe for ways to make the dough More/less "airy", dense, "hefty", etc. Or variations by kneading technique. It was a pain having to extract the firsthand data from other members in a 24 page thread.

I just want to see that the hard work of many members is preserved appropriately for the newbies who come to this site. Thanks for the great recipe!
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on August 02, 2006, 02:51:19 PM
DNA Dan,

Since Tom Lehmann originally posted his NY style dough recipe at the PMQ Recipe Bank, several people have pointed out to him (at the PMQ Think Tank) that sugar is mentioned but not included in the dough formulation. Usually, Tom would clarify the matter by explaining when sugar might be used, but the formulation itself was not corrected. The simple explanation on sugar in a Lehmann dough is to use it when a dough is to be held for more than a few days, or when a pizza screen might be used in lieu of baking directly on a hearth-like stone surface. Tom otherwise discourages the use of sugar (or eggs or milk-based products) when a dough is to be baked directly on a stone surface because of the likelihood of excessive or premature browning of the bottom of the crust. In a typical home oven setting, using 1-2% sugar by weight of flour should be a safe amount to start with, and increase or decrease it with actual experience.

As a new member, you may not be aware of the fact that I created a "roadmap" to all of the Lehmann dough variations that I have been personally involved with. I did this to help people to quickly locate a particular Lehmann dough formulation or dough protocol that might work best for them without having to scan the entire thread. I still post regularly in the Lehmann thread, despite its length, because I would rather keep everything together as much as I can rather than being scattered all over the forum. This is my standard operating procedure on other matters on which I post. In the case of the Lehmann thread, I use the roadmap to hold things together from an organizational and search perspective. FYI, the Lehmann Roadmap is at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1453.msg13193.html#msg13193.

What I have found to be especially helpful to locate posts and threads on the forum is the Advanced search feature. If you haven't seen or tried it, you can click on the Search button on the top of any page, and then click on the Advanced search link. In a forum such as ours where posts are created by its members, it's inevitable that as the number of posts grow it becomes more challenging to find things. That's why I like the Advanced search feature. For a discussion on how to make the most effective use of the Advanced search feature, you may want to take a look at this thread/post: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3101.msg26282.html#msg26282.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: DNA Dan on August 03, 2006, 04:02:53 PM
Thanks for not flaming me for my newbie comments.  >:D

You're the man! There is organization in the pizza madness afterall! Thanks! :chef:
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on August 03, 2006, 04:44:55 PM
DNA Dan,

Life is too short to spend it flaming people :).

I still have some more Lehmann experiments in me, believe it or not. So I hope I don't have to create a roadmap to the "Roadmap" ;D.

Peter

Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: abc on August 06, 2006, 10:43:47 AM
Pete, do you have a formulation for a 12" lehmann pizza?
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on August 06, 2006, 11:02:46 AM
abc,

Yes, I do. If you go to this thread, http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1453.msg13193.html#msg13193, you will find several dough formulations for the 12-inch size. All you have to do is click on the Reply/Page number or the link after an entry to go to the actual page and post. If you can't find a 12-inch formulation you like, tell me what you want and I should be able to develop one for you.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on August 07, 2006, 09:49:13 AM
Yesterday, I made my second Lehmann NY style pizza using my new Deni 2300 countertop pizza oven. As I discovered the last time, perhaps the most significant limitation of the Deni unit is that it does not produce the same measure of oven spring as a conventional home oven. The reason for this is that an uncooked pizza on a cold metal plate doesn't get that burst of heat that allows the crust to swell up, especially at the rim, as the yeast gives up its life (once the crust temperature gets above about 140 degrees F). Pretty much the same thing will happen in a conventional home oven when a solid pan with an unbaked pizza in it is placed cold in a hot oven. Before the pizza can start to bake in a meaningful way, the pan has to get really hot. And by the time that happens, it is usually too late to get an optimum oven spring, even if you did everything else exactly right to try to get a good oven spring. That's one of the reasons why preheated pizza stones/tiles are so great.

For the latest Deni pizza, I tried to apply as many principles of pizza making that I could think of to try to get a more pronounced oven spring, along with a better crumb with a more airy character. I used more yeast (IDY), I was careful as not to overknead the dough during mixing (I used only the pulse feature of my food processor), and I even decided to use an autolyse. Once the dough was shaped into a skin (11 inches), I docked it, lightly oiled it, and placed it (on the metal pizza plate) in the Deni unit (in its "off" position) to proof for 40 minutes. After proofing, the skin was pre-baked top and bottom until it was a light brown, and then dressed and finished baking. The results are discussed and shown at Reply 8 at the Deni 2300 thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2462.msg29123.html#msg29123.

The results were a great deal better than my maiden effort at a Deni pizza. What was most significant to me as a learning experience is that the same pizza making principles that apply to a standard home oven will also work, in pretty much the same way, with a countertop oven such as the Deni pizza oven. One of the reasons I bought the Deni unit in the first place, apart from wanting to make pizzas without using my regular oven during the oppressive summer heat, was because I wanted to see if that was in fact true. In some respects, the Deni oven is easier to control than a home oven because of the capability to turn one or both of the heating coils on or off at will.

I suspect we don't have many Deni 2300 owners on the forum but I'd be happy to post the dough formulation for the Lehmann 11-inch dough for those who may be interested. In the meantime, I plan to try a few more things on my next Lehmann dough using the Deni unit to see if I can improve the results even further.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Y-TOWN on August 07, 2006, 07:03:58 PM
 I've got a Deni 2300 still in the box - I've haven't used it yet - it is going to be for winter use
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: giotto on August 10, 2006, 04:21:29 PM
SLICEofSLOMON

Thank you for sharing your background. It hits home in so many respects. I think we forget sometimes how human some of the legends really were... a lesson that I've learned from the study of BBQ. In the end, consistency has a 2 edge sword, especially in a commercial environment where one's income is based on the result. When you have a commercial winner, innovation is often devoted to consistency; otherwise, deviation can be a bad formula. Just like the cosmos though, it's often the purest or hobbyist that points out something new.

Your comments regarding fresh dough reminded me of a situation I observed the other day when I saw a woman checking for the freshest dates of Il Fornaio's dough for her pizza here in the SF bay area. I asked her a simple question to bring my study of artisan dough to light "do you look for the freshest red wine, or the freshest Parmesan cheese?"

Few, and I mean very few people would ever put dough fermentation at the same level of appreciation of wine making. But the truth is, sour dough is no accident. And like wine or cheese, it can only be attained with time and depending on the sourness to be attained, temperature. Nothing can be more blah sometimes than a fresh low salt cow's milk mozzarella when compared to an aged cheese. And dough is no different.

German bakers, for example, are known to use exact temperatures to incorporate an exact amount of lactic vs. acedic acid into the dough. Representatives from Il Fornaio, Artisan Bakers, and other members of the US baking team may mix day-old cold dough into a new batch of dough to ensure some acidity in their non-sourdough breads. These same bakers, including one of my favorities that you mention, ACME, often work with 75% - 80% hydration levels and 11.5% - 12.7% protein levels of flour to attain their old-world style breads.

Since higher protein flours can definitely result in stiffer doughs, and I don't always want quite the lightness of a low protein flour, I leverage a bit of fat to lubricate a 12.7% protein flour. When oils make their way around protein, water is unable to seek in, and the end result is fewer gluten strands... resulting in a softer dough. Since sugar absorbs water, the same end effect can occur; but with other impact. Like I said, none of this is an accident. And this chemisty represents what I refer to as "the rules"; and once learned, you can adapt any dough to your exact liking of crust.

I like your comparison of Campbell's soup to a great artist. There are certainly huge differences in the pizza world when it comes to taste buds. Even today, this can be influenced by the regions where people grow up. Fortunately, people move around more today than ever before. But you still see people complaining when they can't find their Nathan's dog in Chicago, regional chinese food in the bay area, or find shrimp on their CA pizza. My philosophy is simple... When in Rome, eat like the Roman's do... And learn.










Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on August 11, 2006, 09:56:49 AM
giotto,

It's always a pleasure to have you back at the forum.

When I read your comments and those of Evelyne as well, it strikes me that the Lehmann NY style dough formulation is in harmony with the dough formulations and techniques used by the old "masters". As with the masters' dough formulations, I think the Lehmann dough formulation is simplicity itself. It uses only flour, water, yeast, salt and oil. The yeast is almost negligible, at 0.25% for IDY, and the oil is also used in very modest amounts as well, at 1%. Sugar is optional with the Lehmann dough formulation, but for those instances where it might be used, the amount is typically only 1-2%. I think this combination of ingredients, and especially the small amount of yeast, makes the dough formulation a good candidate for a long, cold fermentation. And, as a result, the dough fits nicely with a commercial environment. If the Lehmann dough strayed from the original dough formulations of the masters, it didn't stray much or that far. And, no doubt, Evelyne's influence on Tom Lehmann was a good part of the reason.

I recently received a copy of Evelyn's book The Pizza Book (which I bought used at amazon.com) and from reading the section of the book on NY style doughs, I can see that Evelyne has stayed true to the ways of the masters, even after all these years since the book was originally published in 1984.  Not only that, if you look at the pizza section of the menu at her restaurant's website at http://www.nizzalabella.com/dinnermenu.html, she pays great homage to those masters, even though they have long since left the pizza scene. No doubt, she is frequently asked: Who are these Lombardi and Pero guys?

BTW, giotto, I read somewhere that Evelyne once worked for Andy Warhol. I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall at that time 8).

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: giotto on August 12, 2006, 03:38:39 AM
Pete-zza:

In past years, we worked non-stop in experimentation with a list of relentless testers because we didn't need to stop after hitting a winner. Your desire to experiment with guys like me and so many others have involved personal interviews and experiences with places like Bianco's, A16, and Da Michele, followed by re-engineering of Patsy's, A16, and so many others. Heck, some of the points that Tony G provided to me regarding world pizza competition were even reiterated. Needless to say, I'm not at all surprised that the comments herein mirror a recipe that is already under the Lehman index.

Despite the use of only a few ingredients in pizza dough, we've learned that results can vary greatly based on flour manufacturer and protein levels, wild yeast vs. commercial yeast, delayed and bacterial fermentation techniques, water temperatures and kneading techniques, handling of dough, use of thin screens vs. stones vs. tiles, oven techniques and temperatures, etc. If reviewers were to read back to our earlier NY technique threads, they would see a progression of so many uncovered secrets. The NY Techniques session alone (now over a year old) covered an immense amount of territory and a key set of discoveries.

I can recall when you called Bianco's and were surprised at the degree of insight that was exposed, including their use of Giusto flour in a mix. Man, did I jump on that one. I was surprised to find out that lower protein flours were used by a few top pizzerias, while many others employed higher protein flours. But as with Caputo flour, I learned that flour can't guarantee an exceptional pizza any more than an NBA basketball can guarantee one to play like a pro.

Remember those white pizza doughs that came out of our ovens when working with Caputo flour? Other alternatives to sugar were sought out (malted barley, milk sugar/lactose, etc.) to create the browning. Out of this, we learned that the amount of sugar that enzymes can extract from starches can differ from one flour to another... We started to look for additional specs in flour (ash ratings, etc.). But those types of specs are hard to find... To this day, I vary things like fermentation and oven techniques and no-sugar vs. some sugar according to the flour that I'm using.

I still recall when you suggested that it was almost impossible to calculate amounts of dry yeast that pros use on a per pizza basis. We discovered that certain pro doughs just didn't expand in the refrigerator. And when we considered the negative impact that yeast can have on dough, we played with techniques to retard or reduce yeast activity at the early stages (cold water, refrigeration, low amounts of yeast, etc)... All of which I use today.

As far as oil, it sort of became a bad thing in light of Neapolitan type pizzas... But when higher flour protein levels are employed, some like myself still find a need to tame the stuff (make it less stiff). And like Reinhart once said, we're not policed, so it's okay to stray.

The Lehman recipes have helped epitomize so much of what's been written, and it's popularity and the need for a centralized set of recipes shows that you've done an exceptional job in providing people with what they've asked for... a single place for top recipes.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on August 12, 2006, 12:52:10 PM
giotto,

When Steve originally asked for a volunteer to try to adapt the commercial Lehmann NY dough formulation to a home setting, I raised my hand because I had already played around with the formulation and I figured that, with only four or five ingredients, what would be the big deal? I would make the dough and pizza, write it up, and move on. What I failed to take into account were many of the variables you mentioned. For example, I discovered that many members did not have stand mixers. They had food processors, bread machines, or just their hands. Or they didn't have access to high-gluten flours. Or their pizza stones were too small to make a 16-inch pizza. Or they had no stones at all and were using pizza screens or pans instead. Or they didn't have scales to weigh the flour and water, or if they were using scales, they preferred metric over U.S standard.

I took each of these "impediments" as a personal challenge and, one by one, crossed them off of the list as I found what appeared to be acceptable solutions. And when autolyse and preferments became hot items, and when people became interested in short-term (2-3 hours) doughs and even take-and-bake pizzas, it was natural to incorporate these ideas into the Lehmann formulation. Matters got to the point where I had to design an Excel spreadsheet, which I had never done before, to be able to handle all the numbers. I am sure that Excel experts would tell me that my spreadsheet is a real kluge--but it works.

At the end of the day, the objective was to take away any excuse or reason for not trying out the Lehmann formulation. In this vein, I remember one amusing case in which a member had only a toaster oven to use because his regular oven was out of order. After getting the inside dimensions for that toaster oven, I came up with a formulation for that application. Thanks to Tom Lehmann's writings, along the way I learned how to use baker's percents to design and scale pizzas to any desired size. The education I got from making so many different versions of the Lehmann dough was enormous and irreplaceable, just as was my experience in making all those Caputo-based pizzas that you and I and others made at the A16 thread.

I suppose that all of this is for the good. I know from posters on the forum and from personal messages I receive that the Lehmann dough formulation is being used all around the world, including a commercial operation in China. As users pass on the formulation to their children and grandchildren, maybe the Lehmann formulation will be viewed someday just as those of the masters that Evelyne talked about. With the pervasiveness of the Internet in our lives and the way it multiplies everything exponentially, there is perhaps no reason why that can't happen.

Peter

Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: giotto on August 12, 2006, 01:46:12 PM
Pete-zza:

Cal Tech proved that a butterfly in San Francisco impacts the weather half way around the world.  And a secret that is dropped to only a dozen or so people at odd spots around the US has been proven to get the word out over time.

And as George Bailey in "It's a wonderful life" illustrated, a single person's interactions with others will have a huge impact universally. Therefore, I have no question that all the GOLD in all the Pizza Making sessions is making its way around the globe.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: abc on August 15, 2006, 06:59:17 PM
giotto,


I suppose that all of this is for the good. I know from posters on the forum and from personal messages I receive that the Lehmann dough formulation is being used all around the world, including a commercial operation in China. As users pass on the formulation to their children and grandchildren, maybe the Lehmann formulation will be viewed someday just as those of the masters that Evelyne talked about. With the pervasiveness of the Internet in our lives and the way it multiplies everything exponentially, there is perhaps no reason why that can't happen.

Peter

a commerical operation?  like a chain store? 
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on August 15, 2006, 07:42:57 PM
abc,

It's a pizza operation, using a conveyor. The member in question is now in the process of expanding the business in ways that are common here but essentially unknown in China. And his Lehmann NY style pizzas are getting rave reviews in spite of the presence of the likes of Pizza Hut and Papa John's. When I originally suggested the Lehmann dough formulation, he had no pizza experience but he is an entrepreneur who believes in himself (he left the U.S. to go to China) and the potential for the China market. It took him several iterations with the doughs to get things right (I had given him a copy of my Excel spreadsheet to work from), and he had to do some experimentation with locally available ingredients, but he persevered.

The Internet played a central role in all of this. Emails with photo attachments and freebie Internet VOIP calls from China to Texas were the ways problems were addressed. I also linked him to articles and items from the forum and from the PMQ forum to address issues that I had no direct experience with. And he spent time searching and reading things from the forum. Ten years ago, or even 5 years ago, none of this would have been possible. For me, it was a lot of fun. And I didn't have to leave the chair in front of my computer, from which I am posting this. It was all done over the Internet, without ever having met the person face to face. When you think about it, it is actually quite amazing.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Wallman on August 20, 2006, 08:15:55 PM
I've been having problems with tears and forming my dough lately, so I after reading this thread (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2632.20.html) tried an autolyse which several members suggest makes the dough easier to handle.  I can report this was my experience.  I used a traditional autolyse (flour and water mixed, 20 minute rest, then added IDY, oil and then salt), dough was 74F after mixing) on my latest Lehmann style pizza. The dough was made with cold water (55F), 63% hydration and a 41.5 hour refridgerator rise.

After 2 hours warming at room, the dough was very smooth and stretched easily to 16 inches. Actually it was a little bigger than 16 inches and it stretched beyond the sides of my peel. The pizza got a little mishaped as it came of the peel as you can see in the photos below.

The pizza was topped with a mix of fresh cow moz. and buffalo moz., crushed tomato sauce, mushrooms, and EVOO on the rim and drizzled over the top.  I baked the pizza in a 550F oven on tiles on the bottom rack, for 7 1/2 minutes.  A bit of parmesan cheese was added after removal from the oven. The crust was nicely browned and puffy.  Pete mentions getting a slightly breadlike consistency in his efforts with an autolyse. I found there was a little bit of that in the crust, but not reallly enough to cause me any concern.  All in all, the autolyse really seemed to help.  I tried Varasano's "wet mixing" technique on an A16 style dough and reported on that effort in this thread: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1298.280.html
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on August 20, 2006, 09:07:59 PM
Wally,

You are doing the right thing by experimenting with concepts like autolyse. The objective is to get a dough that performs best for you and in your particular oven configuration. Your Lehmann pizza looks great, as did the Neapolitan pie that you reported on at the A16 thread. I can see that you have been paying close attention to the best ideas on the forum and implementing them successfully in your pizzas. Your progress has been impressive.

As you noted, I have experimented with autolyse on several occasions. I liked it best when used in the context of natural preferments being used as the leavening agent. I can't explain why that is so. The last "pure" autolyse experiment with the Lehmann dough formulation produced a soft, breadlike crumb, as can be seen here: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg5443.html#msg5443. In that instance, I was using a food processor, a ten-minute autolyse (the classic Calvel autolyse), and the Giusto brand of high-gluten flour. Maybe if I used a stand mixer, the KASL, and a mixing/kneading regimen such as you used, my results could well be different. I am a congenital experimenter who rarely makes the same dough twice. But I know from experimenting with pftaylor's Raquel dough making procedures, which uses autolyse-like rest periods, the dough is one of the easiest to handle. And I have no doubt that Jeff Varasano's methodology produces similarly good results. And, as you know, Evelyne is a strong proponent of the autolyse. She recommends only a 5-minute autolyse rest period for a single dough ball, so that might be something you might want to consider in a future effort, but in the context of the overall dough make-up protocol you recently used.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: abc on August 23, 2006, 12:51:22 PM
i'm a bit torn with the autolyse duration... give it 5 min, give it 20 min, 30...  what's the notion on giving it only 5 min...  is there no tangible benefit for p.dough to run a autolyse longer than 5min i do wonder.  is it due to concern about the dough batch warming up too much if left out 25min longer for a 30min auto, vs. a 5min auto?

if such, there hasn't been suggestion that a longer than 5min autolyse is fine as long as the room is temp. controlled or something.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: scott r on August 23, 2006, 01:11:53 PM
I have also been experimenting with the autolyse lately to try to determine if it is for me. On really hot days I have had to put the mixing bowl (covered) in the fridge for the autolyse.   So far my doughs have come out of the mixer with my targeted temp, and I have noticed no negative side effects.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Wallman on August 23, 2006, 09:31:31 PM
I didn't notice the doughs being particularly warmer after the autolyse. I would think the speed and length of mixing would have a more pronounced effect on temp. than a rest -- unless your home is really warm or your yeast is really active.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on August 23, 2006, 10:59:53 PM
From the reading I have done on the subject of autolyse, I have not discerned a correlation between dough batch size and the length of the autolyse rest period. I have seen from 5 minutes to an hour. Fifteen minutes seems to be common when making a loaf of bread weighing about a pound or so, although I don't know if there is any basis to assume that a pizza dough of the same weight should automatically have the same autolyse period. Intuitively, it would seem that a small dough ball should react to its internal and external environments more slowly than a large dough ball, but I don't know it that applies to autolyse to be able to say that a small dough batch requires a shorter autolyse period than a large dough batch size.

In my kitchen in the summer, I do know that the dough temperature will rise during the autolyse period. When I know I am going to use autolyse, I lower the water temperature I plan to use--which I have calculated--by about 5 degrees or so to compensate for the temperature rise. In the winter, I would do the reverse.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: abc on August 28, 2006, 10:47:08 AM
pete, i thought a larger dough mass would be the one adapting to change slower, not the other way around.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on August 28, 2006, 12:02:36 PM
abc,

Thanks. You caught my error. I meant to say it the other way around, although my comment on the autolyse time was stated as I intended. But even correcting my statement, it may still be wrong.  After posting on this subject, I read an article about dough strength by the Head Instructor with the San Francisco Baking Institute, who mentioned the concept of "mass effect" that says that the chemical reactions will happen faster with a large dough batch than with a small dough batch. I spent a fair amount of time searching the net to find more on this topic but couldn't find anything directly on point. The subject isn’t an easy one to convert to keywords for search purposes.

Maybe if our resident dough expert DINKS reads this, he can help shed some light on the concept of “mass effect”. Or, maybe Evelyne knows the answer.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: SLICEofSLOMON on August 28, 2006, 01:37:09 PM
Hi,

About dough mass--yes it is true,  a larger mass of dough will rise faster because the heat given off during fermentation actually makes a large piece of dough rise faster than a small one, it will also over-blow faster than a small mass.  As far as inititial dough temperature, a smaller mass will heat up faster in the mixer but it will cool faster in the refrigerator. As far as the autolyse for a single dough ball, 5 minutes is plenty of time--there will not be a noticable difference in the dough or the finished product if left longer. Bread and pizza are very similiar and lots of bread baking techniques enhance the art of pizza making, but there are some very important differences between bread baking and pizza.

If you are baking in a very warm kitchen, you probably want to lessen the time the dough spends at such warm temperatures unless you want to use the dough faster--within 24 hours.

Evelyne

Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on August 28, 2006, 02:49:25 PM
Thank you, Evelyne,

The article I mentioned appears at http://www.sfbi.com/pdfs/NewsF04a.pdf#search=%22autolyse%20time%20period%22. However, since I have found the above link to be balky at times, I have typed below the part of the article that deals with mass effect. Even apart from the discussion on that topic, I found the article to be excellent for its discussion of dough strength, which is something that applies to pizza dough in much the way it does for bread dough, which was the subject of the article.

The quantity or "mass" of dough that is allowed to ferment also plays a role in the strength of the dough. A larger piece of dough has the tendency to increase in strength faster compared to a smaller piece of dough. This is due to the fact that in larger masses of dough, all the chemical reactions happen faster and a better environment is created with conditions more favorable for microorganism activity: temperature, availability of nutrients, etc.

This is what we refer to in the baking industry as the mass effect. This mass effect is particularly important to take into consideration when applying formulas developed for home baking to production or vice versa. For smaller batches of dough (up to 6 lbs.), longer fermentation time might be necessary, while larger batches (50 lbs. and up) might require shorter fermentation time.


On a somewhat related matter, I notice that many people will knead a small amount of dough, or let it ferment or rise, for the same times specified in recipes for much larger amounts of dough. This suggests the need to adjust the times when making small amounts of dough. Since the required times to use for the smaller dough batches are not normally given, this means that one has to look for the conditions of the dough that signify that it has been kneaded enough or fermented/risen enough. This usually comes from experience and practice.

Peter

Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: dinks on August 29, 2006, 02:08:57 PM
PETER:
  Good morning. "THANK-YOU", Peter for the welcomed comment you quoted me being a dough expert. If the truth be told we all know that you & Ms. EVELYNE are the experts in this forum. I have learned much from both of you. Hear are my many Thanks.
  I came across this post #488 accidently yesterday I was just lurking. I belong to another culinary baking club where I help the ladies with answers of why their cakes sink in the middle after baking, ete. I re- balance their formulas & make recomendations to help them with various remedys.. That is why I am tardy today.

  Peter, the question posed is  "CHEMICAL REACTIONS WILL HAPPEN FASTER..........."

  Soooo !!!, I will only address myself to that quiry today. Peter,  I must state that I have a problem with that question
 Why... Chemical reactions can occur YES !!! "POSITIVELY OR NEGITIVELY.  I am not able to determine which. So,let's do both. In a few words we both know or we should know that a dough mass approaching & then exceeding 90 degees internal temp. will not just give off unpleasant odors but WILL effect the flavor of the baked product.... we now will have a bundle of White trash.
  What else do we know.... we know or else we should know that the Fermentation cycle as a matter of course produces heat in the dough mass. Peter to quote you ..you constantly state to strive for 75 to 77 degrees of internal temp after mixing. That notion is the notion of the European  yeasted lean dough bread bakers. The American bakers
say otherwise they say 78 to 82 degrees is optimum. Peter, I had to lay that for ground work so that I could tie it in & make my case. Recently I related in another post when mixing formulas that exceed 10 pounds of flour the yeast amount should be reduced Why... because the fermentation cycle produces more heat in the dough mass than in it's proper ratio/proportion. Sooo, ... this condition itself will bring the dough temp. to the 90 degree area very quickly... that is  VERY UN-GOOD !!!.  In essence this doesn't happen because the moment the batch comes out of the vat the sous chef calls for 2,3,5 apprentice bakers out & instructs them to scale & round, Most likely 1.5 to 2 pound balls... covered well to insure the dough doesn't acquire a skin on the surface. Then after ferm. Shaping & into the proof box with approx 98 /103% humidity. Slash & bake. End of this portion.
  Peter, my friend,I am getting tired now, My eyes hurt & my 1 finger typer is getting cramps. I can type 7 1/2 words per minute .... but I can erase 175 words per minute... that is still a record I believe..
  Perhaps later I will post the other side of this quiry.

  Good luck Peter, keep up the good work & keep the troops in line.

   ~DINKS :chef:

Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: dinks on August 30, 2006, 11:08:19 AM
PETER:
   Good morning to you. Peter after much thought on this subject I come to the realization that I just am not able to add anything further that would amount to valuable information... at least not at this time. If I do, I will discuss it with you.
Till then I am looking forward to reading your posts along with our other knowledeable forum members. There is so much to learn about baking science. I firmly believe this is the forum to achieve that.
  Good luck to all & enjoy the rest of the day.

  ~DINKS.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on August 30, 2006, 01:48:36 PM
DINKS,

As a self-taught pizza maker, I am always grateful for any advice and insights you can offer on the matter of doughs, especially since I suspect that not everything I read or think I know about the subject is bound to be right.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: abc on September 16, 2006, 03:32:57 PM
boy, not much pic activity recently for this thread...

in my curiosities from this thread http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1548.40.html in the dough forum I've been applying All Trumps flour to the Lehmann recipe.

using the awesome dough calculator, i made 4 dough balls of 16", .09 thickness (just to see what a bit thinner would be like than what i had been doing) 2+ day rise in the fridge.

the pictures don't show the difference i've been experiencing now in non-elite NYC pizzalike hints of crust after taste, and the feel of the finished product.
my pictures are poor,  particularly for the dough color IMHO as it's more yellow than it actually was.  It was evening so i didnt have natural light and i did not activate the fluorescent mode of my digicam nor do i have any post processing software.

i refrained from lifting up the pie to shoot the underside because i was only taking pictures when they were hot... the pictures would have come out with a flash, and my flash would have overly brightened it up where the correct shade of the crust wouldn't be portrayed.  550 degree oven as usual, and my experiences thus far with this bromated AT flour is that it's more soft than it is purely crispy... as is most generic corner NYC pizza places.  Leaving it at room temp for 30 min, and tossing it back into the warm stone for 4 min. after the oven had been shut down for a while... and the slices come out no more than thinly crackly... a very good result.

the KASL in my usage, develops too much of a firmed up crust in the oven (not even talking about reheating).  KASL was great for helping me reach another level in my pizza making, but i'm leaning on not implementing it when i want to replicate a NYC generic street slice.

what I think I've found is i'd like to use a bit more salt than the norm, which i'll try next time... i want to see if this will tighten up the dough a bit more, and i might try a 3 day rise, and quit frankly i think nyc doughs are a bit saltier than i've been making them.


My next tests may be revisits of 18" pies, and to utilize 'pizza sauce' like don pepinos' that i recently ordered (another thread) to further a generic NYC street pie experience.

and further down the line, perhaps tapping into elite territory discoveries again, to mix KASL w/ AT flour 50/50... as others have done, and revisit self crushed tomatoes and fresh mozzarella only, pies.

these photos are of pies using the cheese first, then sauce method... i've been overly good in placing cheese near the crust rim, that i don't have a 'sauce edge' like many NYC pizzas.  perhaps when i make 18" pies, i will try the full affect.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: scott r on September 16, 2006, 05:43:16 PM
abc, your pizza looks perfect!  You should be very proud of your achievements.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: abc on September 17, 2006, 11:13:33 AM
thanks scottr, i'm very much still going at it though...  and i've got to queue up a dough batch such that it'd be ready during the day, than the night time...for picture advantages...  it's been a while, but due to my schedule it's been hard.... i've got to make more pizzas too because my fresh grown basil is probably only going to last outside for another 6 wks before it starts withering... it's already starting to sprout flower tops.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Bill/SFNM on September 17, 2006, 11:39:55 AM
t's already starting to sprout flower tops.

Pinch off the flower tops - better flavor in the leaves and longer production. You can use the flower tops in a sauce.

Bill/SFNM
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: abc on September 18, 2006, 06:51:19 PM
thanks for the advice.... what i have on two plants is about a six inch stem at the top counting down, where i hit the last bunch of basil leaves... is a six inch step studded with like seed pods... do i rip off this whole stem (shortening the plant) or leave the stem, just try to strip it of all the pods?

on other plans, i got the beginning of some sprouting right off of the leaves, so i plucked those away.... but the stem situation... i'm a bit of wonderment on what to do.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Bill/SFNM on September 18, 2006, 07:36:58 PM
I cut off the entire flower stem, leaving only leaf stems. More leaf stems will grow out if it isn't too late in the season. I pinch off anything that looks like it will become a flower. Works for me.

Bill/SFNM

Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: abc on September 21, 2006, 11:36:58 AM
oh, so you don't allow any seeds to be yielded for next yr's planting?
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on September 24, 2006, 11:50:38 AM
I recently spent a week in NYC, which gave me ample time to check out a few dozen “street” pizza establishments to get a better sense of what the “true” NY street pizza style is, particularly in relation to the Lehmann NY style that I have been working with for over two years on this thread.

For the most part, the pizzas I examined were 14”-18”, with a predominance in the 16”-18” size. The doughs for these pizzas were shaped into skins on a marble or similar low-friction surface and transferred to a lightly floured peel and then sauced, cheesed, topped and baked in a deck oven. In one instance, I saw a pizza maker use a screen. In that case, he used a large amount of oil on the bottom of the skin (it was very shiny and highly visible) before transferring it onto the screen, possibly to prevent sticking to the screen and/or to get better bottom crust browning due to the high heat transfer characteristics of the oil. The pizza was baked in a deck oven. I did not see any conveyor ovens used by any of the establishments I checked out.

Somewhat surprisingly, I did not see a lot of dough tossing and spinning. The doughs almost never left the hands of the pizza makers. The dough balls were dusted in bench flour, pressed flat using the fingers, turned and stretched on the work surface to about 12”, and then draped over both hands or closed fists and turned until stretched to the final size. It was clear from watching this that the doughs had a better quality from a manageability standpoint than those made in a standard home KitchenAid mixer. Yet, for the most part, the skins looked to be far more extensible than elastic, much as many of us have experienced with the Lehmann NY style doughs.

In most cases, there was no attempt to form a well-defined rim, although I did see a few pizza makers make a concerted effort to define a rim, or “lip”, at the perimeter of their skins. The lips were formed by either a "pinching" process or by placing an outstretched hand at the perimeter while pressing outwardly with the other hand at the edges while turning the skin. In the past, I have been told by members Canadave and ghost, and possibly others, that NY street pizzas have small rims. I found this to be true for the pizza establishments whose pizzas I examined. As a consequence, I also did not detect significant oven spring at the rims.

I think one of the biggest surprises was how light the finished crusts were. There were a few with a fair amount of browning, but most were fairly light and in some cases almost white. I suspect that this may be fairly common for slices that are to be reheated, but some of the crusts were so light that I wondered whether the crusts could be browned enough at the rim through the reheating process. From what I saw, it is fairly clear to me that most of our members seem to prefer much darker crusts, along with more pronounced rims and very good oven spring.

The biggest surprise was how uninspiring many of the pizzas looked, particularly in relation to the many pizzas that our members have made and reported on in this thread and in other NY threads on this forum. I didn’t have time to delve into flours and other ingredients used by the street pizza operators I visited but it is quite possible that our members are using better ingredients than most of the places I visited, and producing pizzas that have a much more artisanal quality to them. On a future visit to NYC, I plan to sample a few street slices to round out my analysis.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: varasano on September 24, 2006, 12:10:03 PM
Hey Pete,

The truth is that street pizza has changed a lot in the last 15 years as more italians have left the business. You see almost white crusts. In many places you see a lineup of pizza's in a window with a lot of varieties of toppings. These did not exist like this 15 years ago. Back then it was almost all cheese pizza and it was much darker in color, and frankly much fresher and better. I think that the pizza world has divided itself.  It used to be mostly good. Now it's dividing into very bad and very good. The mass produced stuff continues to decline. But the artisan movement is expanding rapidly. I've been looking at some brick oven websites I bet there are 10 brick ovens in this country now for every one there was 15 years ago.  Even here in Atlanta, there must be 20 commercial brick oven places and who knows how many home ones. What I've tried to focus on is the technique, though, because for a lot of people ingredients and equipment are easier to get than experience and knowledge. Of the 20 commercial brick ovens in Atlanta, 0 make a tasty pie.

Joe's on Carmine Street is a good example of what most places used to be in NY. It's a classic street slice.

Jeff
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: enchant on September 24, 2006, 02:15:57 PM
I recently spent a week in NYC, which gave me ample time to check out a few dozen “street” pizza establishments
A few DOZEN pizza places in the course of a week.  You should have had your cholesterol checked when you got back just to see the look on the doctor's face.  ;)
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on September 24, 2006, 04:37:33 PM
Pat,

LOL....

I didn't eat pizza in any of the slice joints I visited. I walked all around the city, mainly on busy streets that had a lot of food-related businesses, and when I came across a pizza place I went in and checked things out. Sometimes I could watch the pizza makers through a window.

The places where I actually ate pizza were the Neapolitan style pizza places, like Una Pizza Napolitana, Luzzo's and Naples 45. The pizzas eaten there (mainly Margheritas) were sparsely topped. In a future trip to NYC I hope to actually try some of the street pizzas.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: abc on September 25, 2006, 07:18:25 PM
Pete, reads like you only spent time in NYC borough of Manhattan looking at 'their' generic pizza shops... these are sometimes shops that have glass displays w/ numerous types of topped round pies that if you go to a borough out of Manhattan, to a straight neighborhood one that isn't too trendy (else you may find the same glass display) you may find nothing premade except plain round and square pies, couple of sausage rolls etc.  Calzones at some places are made when they are ordered.   Some of these  Manhattan places, you wonder with such a variety laid out, how fresh can the topping really be, as they look dried out... especially broccolli.  (Mind you, I don't mind freshness of the pizza itself as much, because a pizza can reheat well, though the counter guy needs to be told this as they are usually rushing to take it out of the oven).


As for not seeing any pizza tossing and spinning... i go the opposite route of you.... that is, that's definitely something i was surprised to see on TV to represent how pizza was prepared, when it turned out it's almost everywhere else 'but' in NYC.  It's just not really needed to get the job done for NY generic pizza.

As for light, colorless crusts, yes I see that everywhere, and Italian or not.   That is why I always instruct 'well done'...

While many Italians left the business over time for something else or retired and in cases where no Italian immigrants carried on but nonItalian immigrants did...  i've tasted good pizza made by non Italians and bad pizza made by Italians.

If you make your product just to make a living, you can assemble it together and it may look like a pizza but it comes off very poor.


A simple dominos pizza can taste very decent, but you can easily walk into a Dominos franchise that's got a kid putting a 8hr shift just for the paltry money and in some places where he's the only one manning the phone and making the pies and cash register, while another 1-2 make deliveries and helpout when they're not out on delivery...  i've had dominos poorly made in this scenario, and i've had dominos done the best it can, with dough that's managed properly such that it's risen enough to be light and fluffy, and not overly stuck with cornmeal that the bottom can't even brown.

making pizza even in a chain environment is not the equivalent as working in the back at McDonalds. 

Yes, it seems many of us on the forums are looking for more crust charring, darker crusts as maybe a indication of more 'artisan' qualities...

but this is not a NYC generic street crust.   I've recently tried to approach this.  When I 'held back' on oven time to possibly get the generic NYC look, I felt I couldn't get a tasty crust.  When I baked it enough so that it was tasty, it was tasty but it wasn't a NYC generic taste.

One thing I think not to be confused with is, there's a difference between a pale crust that is not done, vs. if it can be described.... a pale crust that IS done (cooked) but when baked longer, it can develop a darker shade or black spots, yet not morphed into a product w/ a texture of something hard.

I have found with All Trumps bromated flour to help me recently.  I didn't have to hold back on the oven time, I bake away at it... and when it comes out it's soft and light colored.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on September 25, 2006, 08:28:29 PM
abc,

You are correct. The places I visited had a lot in common but weren't completely representative of the "NY style". I am sure that if I went into the right neighborhoods, rather than major NY streets, I would find better examples of the style. After reading Jeff Varasano's remarks on the changes in the pizza business I wondered whether competition from the large pizza chains (Pizza Hut, Papa John's, Domino's, Little Caesar's, etc.) has driven many pizza operators, particularly those serving the same demographics as the big chains, to the low end in order to survive. To do this and still make money, something would have to suffer--the pizza itself. The high end takes you away from this kind of exercise, but to survive there you have to have the right location, maybe a key differentiator (such as a brick oven), the right demographics, and a willingness of patrons to pay up for quality. I suspect that many of the pizzerias in the middle are those that are in old established neighborhoods with longstanding loyal customers and a recognition that they need each other.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: enchant on September 25, 2006, 08:59:22 PM
abc, are you saying that in your experience, the All Trumps creates a dough that tends to be paler?
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: abc on September 26, 2006, 10:23:38 AM
abc, are you saying that in your experience, the All Trumps creates a dough that tends to be paler?


yes... i was dancing around that.... :angel:

i think so... that is, i'm thinking that for the same amt of oven time, it remains more pale or shall i say light golden, than a KASL dough...
and i can leave it in there 'overtime' (to get what 'we' on these forums seem to want)  and it can get darker but whereas the KASL will get hard the AT hasn't.

i know that browning is a variable of many things... and i haven't used KASL in a few months...

i looked at my recent AT pie pics and compared them to old KASL pics on my memory card, I see the difference.  There's a bite difference too...  AT flour is softer... the whole slice droops...   A reheat (like when you order 1 slice to go) will crisp up a thin potatochip .00001 inch layer of the crust for a subtle crackle... something i think is ideal.

but the texture of the crust w/ AT flour I feel (no pun) is like NYC pizza... and i've mentioned before it is AT bromated flour bags that i do see delivered to NY pizza shops.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: enchant on September 26, 2006, 02:09:30 PM
Damn.  And here I am with 48 pounds of All Trumps in my cellar.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: abc on September 26, 2006, 05:34:14 PM
Damn.  And here I am with 48 pounds of All Trumps in my cellar.

what do you mean by that, you had previously given up on AT for some reason?


for me, ever since i started w/ the Lehmann recipe, i've used about 25 lbs of a local brand non-KASL hi gluten... then switched to KASL earlier this yr.

With all my experience using non AT high gluten flour and now AT flour, they don't match up I feel to AT flour when emulating NYC street pizza.


I had become 'used' to KASL and almost got 'lazy' and satisfied, so to speak until some of my pizza eaters 'woke' me up that my pizza, though excellent, was NOT NY pizza style...  I had realized I had somehow drifted away from pursuing NYC generic style pizza, but made a good pizza of some kind instead.

it was a pleasant surprise that AT flour is so key in it all, and it was in front of me all this time.  I'm glad I bought a bag a couple of months ago.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: enchant on September 26, 2006, 08:34:27 PM
what do you mean by that, you had previously given up on AT for some reason?
No - I can't get KASL locally.  All Trumps is available at a supply house only ten minutes from my house.

However, there IS a place where I can buy it, but it's a bit of a drive.  I'll probably get a few more pounds of KASL mail order and verify that it indeed gives me the darker crust highlights that I've come to know and love.  If it is actually better, I'll just have to figure that this was a $15 lesson and use the rest of the AT flour to make 19,392,000 breadsticks.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Wallman on October 01, 2006, 04:41:40 PM
Here's my latest NY Style pie.  This try used GMAT, autolyse, 63% hydration, and approximately 65 hours of retardation in the fridge.  This pie, topped with sauce made from 6-in-1 tomatoes and Polly-O moz. was cooked completely on a screen. The oven was preheated for about 20 minutes at 525.
The pizza baked on the top rack for about 5-6 minutes, then on the bottom rack for 1-2 min. and then finished on the top rack on broil for about a minute.  I have also found that the GMAT crust doesn't seem to brown quite as much as the KASL, but it does seem to be softer.  This pizza also did puff up nicely at the rim. I find the screen help increase the size of ththe cornicione  of my pies.

This is about the 8th pie I've made with GMAT and I've been very pleased with how easy the dough is to work and with the flavor.  Plus, I can get it conveniently at Costco.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: abc on October 01, 2006, 06:56:51 PM
Here's my latest NY Style pie.  This try used GMAT, autolyse, 63% hydration, and approximately 65 hours of retardation in the fridge.  This pie, topped with sauce made from 6-in-1 tomatoes and Polly-O moz. was cooked completely on a screen. The oven was preheated for about 20 minutes at 525.
The pizza baked on the top rack for about 5-6 minutes, then on the bottom rack for 1-2 min. and then finished on the top rack on broil for about a minute.  I have also found that the GMAT crust doesn't seem to brown quite as much as the KASL, but it does seem to be softer.  This pizza also did puff up nicely at the rim. I find the screen help increase the size of ththe cornicione  of my pies.

This is about the 8th pie I've made with GMAT and I've been very pleased with how easy the dough is to work and with the flavor.  Plus, I can get it conveniently at Costco.

thanks for the pic.  ah, see... that is the top crust color (pale) of a nyc generic street pizza... yet it doesn't taste gummy and undercooked, undersprung at all, eh.  yes, i've described that it does not brown as much as the KASL per same unit of time, nor does it get hard as much...

this pale but done condition makes me have it 'well done' usually.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Wallman on October 01, 2006, 08:44:29 PM
I sometimes brush a little oil on the rim to enhance browning, but didn't this time. One thing I really like about the GMAT is that the crust stays softer than the KASL dough. This is a plus when cooking at relatively low temp, IMHO. 
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: abc on October 02, 2006, 12:26:29 PM
I sometimes brush a little oil on the rim to enhance browning, but didn't this time. One thing I really like about the GMAT is that the crust stays softer than the KASL dough. This is a plus when cooking at relatively low temp, IMHO. 

exactly.. it stays softer.

say, your dough balls, for your length of maturization in the fridge... did it lose its ball shape, and collapse into a blob?


i'm thinking about buying a white plastic dough box, and though i may have been better to put this question in  another thread... but if this is what continues to happen in my experience after 48 hrs, the dough is going to meet up w/ ea. other inside the box and become a intertwined mess...

maybe i have to put even less yeast than the recommended pct?
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 02, 2006, 01:34:42 PM
abc,

You should of course start a new thread if you would like to explore different dough boxes/trays. However, I would like to suggest in the meantime that you take a look at wooden dough boxes. There are quite a few old timers making NY style pizzas in the NY area using the wood boxes. They started using them many, many years ago before plastic dough boxes became popular and never switched to plastic (e.g., Cambro). As you might imagine, health departments prefer the plastic over the wood, but both types have to be properly cleaned and maintained to keep them in the proper condition.

In line with my suggestion, you may want to take a look at this article by Chef Bruno, who works for Marsal & Sons, a premier oven manufacturer: http://www.pmq.com/mag/2004may_june/woodtrays.php. (http://www.pmq.com/mag/2004may_june/woodtrays.php.) Marsal is one of the few sources of wooden dough boxes that I have been able to identify after doing a substantial amount of online research. Pictures of the Marsal wooden dough boxes can be seen at http://www.marsalsons.com/default.aspx?pageId=25 (http://www.marsalsons.com/default.aspx?pageId=25) (click on More Equipment).

To get more information on the Marsal wooden dough boxes, I called them today to see whether they sell the boxes to individuals and, if so, at what price and in what quantities. At first I was told (by the gal who answered the phone) that they don’t sell to individuals. Nonetheless I asked to speak with a rep to get further information, including names of possible resellers. I ended up speaking with Rich, who told me that they do in fact sell to individuals, in any quantity, although volume discounts apply. They are $35 each, plus shipping (Rich estimates about $5-$6 for one box but that will depend on destination).

In speaking with Rich, he said that if someone does a side by side test using wood and plastic dough boxes, they will notice a difference. The wood apparently absorbs more moisture from the dough, and results in a larger dough expansion with a more open and airy dough structure, and a crispier crust when baked. Whether this is a salesman’s puffing (no pun intended) is hard to say but there is not much incentive to misstate this matter for a single $35 sale. I was told that most pizza operators who use wooden dough boxes do not advertise the fact. This is what I have read elsewhere. I guess it is one of the pizza operators few remaining “secrets”.

I know that you are serious about trying to reproduce the NY style that you have favored for so long so if you or other members are interested, you can call Marsal at 631-226-6688 (they are located in Lindenhurst, NY) and ask for Rich. I told him that I am a member of a pizza making forum and was going to bring the above information to the attention of our members. Anyone calling Rich may be able to extract more secrets from him on the wooden dough boxes.

Peter

EDIT (2/8/2013): For an alternative link to the PMQ article referenced above, see the Wayback Machine link at http://web.archive.org/web/20110404180537/http://pmq.com/mag/2004may_june/woodtrays.php (http://web.archive.org/web/20110404180537/http://pmq.com/mag/2004may_june/woodtrays.php)
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: scott r on October 02, 2006, 02:02:09 PM
I have heard from a few different sources that the wooden dough boxes promote a crispier outer crust because of the lower internal humidity.  I have seen the dough boxes at sally's in New Haven and they have drilled air holes in them.  I am assuming this helps to achieve a similar effect.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: David on October 02, 2006, 03:19:00 PM
The use of wood boxes was mentioned here before:



Unfortunately the wood boxes (you do not flour the ball in these) are disappearing even in Naples. The advantage of the wood boxes is that retain some of the moisture from the outer dough ball, without drying it out. This then allows you to use less bench flour even though the dough is still very moist. The wood helps as well to keep a constant temperature.

Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Wallman on October 02, 2006, 04:46:49 PM
exactly.. it stays softer.

say, your dough balls, for your length of maturization in the fridge... did it lose its ball shape, and collapse into a blob?

The ball was pretty big and did have a gas bubble when I took it out of the fridge, but it didn't really loose form as I dropped it out of the container.  I was using a square disposable Glad plastic container, and the ball was almost to the lid but not touching.  I'm guessing the container holds about 4 cups but I'm not sure.  The dough ball was for a 15 inch pizza so it would be about 17 to 18 oz.  One more note, the dough ball was still a little cool, it had only warmed up about an hour before forming.

I did bake a pie using the same dough formulation that only rose for 20 hours and the ball was a good bit smaller.  In my experience, and as Pete as discussed in this thread, going beyond about 72 hours does cause the dough to go slack, but I didn't have this problem with this batch.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: abc on October 03, 2006, 08:44:53 AM
thanks Pete once again for your research... though i've known of the wooden boxes, i havent seen in my observations, these wooden boxes employed at nyc generic street shops... i see the round metal pans stacked up...

i guess you can 'oil' the dough ball tops, but not the bottoms, when retarding dough in a box?

though i'm curious to try out a box, for maybe not nyc pizza but a fresh mozz style artisan pizza... i think the box is in optimal use mode if one is using the box at least a couple of times a week? 

Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 03, 2006, 09:28:38 AM
abc,

I believe that you are correct about not oiling the bottoms of the dough balls. As for optimum use of the wooden dough boxes I wouldn't have any idea. Tom Lehmann says that wooden dough boxes harbor the good bacteria (lactobacillus) but if you use the boxes infrequently and wash them thoroughly I would think that you would reduce the bacteria count.

Some time ago, I did a lot of searching for a round wooden bowl of decent size to try out with just a single dough ball. The idea came to me after pftaylor wrote his famous post about using his great grandmother's idea (she was born in Naples and lived in Brooklyn all her life) of adding vanilla malt to the dough (NY style) and using a wooden bowl for fermentation purposes. When I went looking for such a bowl all ll I could find was fancy bowls in fancy shapes and made of fancy woods. In many cases, they were sealed also to keep the wood from absorbing anything. No doubt somewhere there is someone selling unfinished round wooden bowls but I couldn't find anyone online that was selling them, especially in the modest size I was looking for (not large unfinished salad bowls or part of a much larger set).

I am not at all surprised by the use of metal dough proofing pans by the generic street shops in NYC. I saw their use also when I was recently in NYC. A lot of the generic pizza shops are small and may not have enough space to accommodate a cooler large enough to hold several trays of dough balls. Stacks of metal proofing pans make more efficient use of the available space, especially if the volume of dough balls is modest.

Not to digress, but sometime I plan to try pftaylor's great grandmother's malted milk suggestion (I will use the Carnation Original malted milk) in the Lehmann dough formulation. Some of our members who tried it, especially friz78, swore by it.

Peter

Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: abc on October 04, 2006, 10:58:05 AM
i was reading their website: Marsal wood Dough Boxes removes the moistness from the bottom of the dough, resulting in a much crispier pizza pie.

this means we'd have to keep track of the dough bottom vs. the dough top throughout the stretching and topping process.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: abc on October 04, 2006, 12:36:34 PM
The ball was pretty big and did have a gas bubble when I took it out of the fridge, but it didn't really loose form as I dropped it out of the container.  I was using a square disposable Glad plastic container, and the ball was almost to the lid but not touching. 


i see... well what i meant to ask was did it seem collapsed while in your bowl for so long... where you had to slowly pluck the dough off the bowl, it being well relaxed onto the bowl.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Wallman on October 04, 2006, 05:48:13 PM
No the ball kept it's form after that rise.  Again, it was probably getting close to going slack, but wasn't quite there.  Now, I do try to handle the balls pretty gingerly so they don't deflate too much.  However, the ball streched easily. I just ate a piece of leftover from the fridge and it's still tasty after 3 days!
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 04, 2006, 08:28:54 PM
abc and Wally,

Your recent experiences with the light crust coloration from using the All Trumps flour prompted me to research the All Trumps and KASL flours to see if I could find an explanation for the difference, particularly when the two dough formulations were otherwise the same. I looked at the specs at the General Mills and King Arthur websites and discovered that the two flours are very close in almost all respects except that the KASL seems to have less barley malt and it has a higher falling number (FN) than the All Trumps. The FN is an indication of the amylase enzyme performance of a given flour by which natural sugars are extracted from the damaged starch in the flour by enzyme activity. The FN number is low when there is a significant amount of amylase enzyme performance and high when there is a low level of amylase enzyme performance. The FN for the KASL is 250 +/- 30 sec., and for the All Trumps it is 200-240.

Before assessing the significance of the different falling numbers of the two flours, it may be helpful to consider what factors govern crust coloration. The two main sources of crust color are caramelization of residual sugars in the dough at the time of baking, and the Maillard reactions. Residual sugar is that sugar that is in the dough and at the surface of the unbaked crust at the time of baking. It is sugar that the yeast has not consumed. As with any sugar, as the temperature of the pizza rises during baking, the surface sugars caramelize. They get darker with time, just as melting common table sugar in a bit of water on the stove becomes darker the longer it is cooked. The Maillard reactions are reactions that take place between reducing sugars (also residual), protein (amino acids) and moisture. The more sugar there is, or the more protein there is, the greater the degree of crust coloration, and it will intensify with increasing crust temperature. If the All Trumps finished crust has a light color, to me this suggests that there may be insufficient residual sugars in the dough at the time of baking. Since the two flours have very close protein contents, the Maillard reactions are most likely quite similar and not per se responsible for the lighter crust color.

If the above analysis is correct, then it is quite possible that the All Trumps flour is subject to a shorter fermentation window than the King Arthur flour. The lower FN for the All Trumps flour seems consistent with this assessment and suggests that a shorter fermentation time should be used for the All Trumps than the KASL. To compensate, it may be possible to add some diastatic malt to the All Trumps to increase the amylase enzyme performance and thereby help  extract more sugars from the damaged starch in the All Trumps flour so that more of it is present in the dough at the time of baking to contribute to crust coloration. It may also be possible to add ordinary sugar or possibly barley malt syrup (nondiastatic) to the dough to accomplish much the same result, although one has to be careful not to use too much because of the potential of the bottom crust prematurely browning when the pizza is baked on a hot stone. If diastatic malt is use, the recommended rate is about 0.5-1.0% of the weight of formula flour. Above that, there is the potential of the dough becoming gummy and the finished crust may have a reddish color. A common brand of diastatic malt is Bob's Red Mill.

Peter



Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Wallman on October 04, 2006, 08:43:15 PM
As always, thanks for the thoughtful and well researched comments Pete.  I don't really recall if the pizza I made with only 20 hours or so of retardation was dramatically different or darker in coloring that the one with 65 hours.  I think it may have been a little darker, but it was also cooked on tiles rather than a screen.  I didn't take any pictures. Next time I try to pay attention to see if a shorter fermentation makes a difference in coloring.  Unfortunately, it won't be until next week at the earliest since I have to go out of town tomorrow.

Also, I may try some malt, the grocery store I frequent has a bunch of Bob's Red Mill products.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 14, 2006, 02:56:42 PM
The photos below show the results of my latest experiment with the Lehmann NY dough formulation, in this case for a 12” pizza. The significance of my latest effort is that I used a markedly different method for preparing the dough in my basic KitchenAid stand mixer, one that yielded a dough that I was able to cold ferment for almost six days—and I believe it could have gone even longer—without signs of overfermentation. The finished dough started out round in its container (a metal lidded container), started to flatten out after about a day or two in the refrigerator, and remained in that condition for the rest of the time until I removed it from the refrigerator to warm up at room temperature on the bench for about two hours before shaping and stretching. The dough had a grayish tint to it but had no pronounced odors of fermentation (alcohol, etc.) or wetness. It’s possible that the odors escaped when I periodically opened the container to examine the dough, expecting each time to see the dough start a downhill slide--one that never transpired.

I thought for sure that the dough would be unworkable after almost six days. It didn’t rise much on the bench, but it handled quite normally. When stretching it, it had a nice balance between elasticity and extensibility and had “anti-rip” qualities that approximated those that I have only achieved before using a natural preferment. I am now in the process of trying to replicate the results so it would be premature to comment further on the new method I used. Maybe it was a fluke. Everything I did had a reason and a purpose, or so I felt, so I am hoping it was not a fluke. Over the course of the next week I hope to have an answer.

The finished pizza itself, a simple pepperoni pizza using an uncooked 6-in-1 sauce and the Dragone (Saputo) brand of low-moisture whole-milk mozzarella cheese, was first rate. The crust had an outstanding flavor, one that came very close to what I have only achieved before when using natural preferments. What surprised me most was how sweet the crust was, especially at the rim, given that I did not add any sugar to the dough. There apparently was also enough residual sugar in the dough to contribute to good crust coloration. The pizza itself was baked on a pizza stone that had been preheated for about an hour at around 500-550 degrees F. After six minutes on the stone, I removed the pizza from the stone and placed it on the topmost oven rack position for about another minute. I did not use the broiler, as I often do to get increased coloration. The crust was chewy and a bit crispy at the rim and I also saw a lot of tiny bubbles at the rim, which is something I like in my NY style pizzas. The crumb was also quite decent and the rim in terms of size and shape was in line with a typical NY style pizza as I had occasion to observe many times during my last visit to NYC.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 22, 2006, 01:49:27 PM
In the immediately preceding post I mentioned that I had used a new method for making the basic Lehmann dough in my basic KitchenAid mixer, with good dough handling qualities and long fermentation characteristics and accompanying pronounced crust flavor.

Since the last post, I have replicated the method several times, with equally good, reproducible results. In essence, what I did was to tear down the basic Lehmann dough processing steps, modify and augment them, and rearrange them in a new order. Because of the general nature of the new method (i.e., it is not limited to the Lehmann formulation), I started a new thread to describe the details of the new method. It is at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg33251.html#msg33251. I have also posted below a couple of photos of pizzas that were based on doughs using the new method. The pizza shown in the first photo is one that was based on a dough in which the yeast, IDY, was introduced early in the dough making process. The age of the dough at the time I used it was between 5 and 6 days. The pizza shown in the second photo is one that was based on a dough in which the yeast, again IDY, was introduced toward the end of the dough making process. The age of that dough when I used it was about 7 days. The starting dough formulation in both cases was the basic Lehmann dough formulation (for 12" pizzas)
.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: waruwaru on October 22, 2006, 08:33:29 PM
Thanks, Pete-zza!  I gave the 14-inch formula in reply #186 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg12874.html#msg12874) and instructions in reply #190 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg13070.html#msg13070) a try today on my Big Gree Egg.  The crust turned out really well!  I made the dough last night and wanted them for lunch, so I let the dough rise on the counter for ~8 hours instead.  Next time I will do the slow fridge rise as stated.  Couldn't find KASL, so used KA's Bread Flour + VWG instead.  One had half pepperoni and half pulled pork, and the other had sausage/onion/clam.  Cooked at 450+ for 12 minutes each.  Here are some pictures:

Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 22, 2006, 09:20:26 PM
waruwaru,

Thanks for posting your photos. I think you may be the first member to post photos on this thread for a Lehmann pizza baked in an Egg.

I like the idea of the tomato, sausage and clam pizza. Combining meat with seafood gives the pizza a Portuguese flair.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: abc on October 24, 2006, 09:27:54 PM
I continued with the GM AT flour and produced 2 16" doughs...non-parbaked.   I put 2% salt because I wanted to tighten up the dough as it was retarded for almost 3days at 63% hydration and my previous experience told me the dough was rather slack... I also was curious to see how salty 2% was.... it's no problem.
I also don't believe most NYC places employ 63% hydration... my dough steamed and felt supple on the insides of the edge crust...

I thought this time, perhaps thanks to the salt, the dough was a bit tougher and held its shape a bit better, perhaps 10-15% better... next time maybe I'll cut hydration to 60-61 pct, keep salt at 2%, and see if the voids have any negative affect from the 2-3pct less hydration.

In all, I continue to enjoy using the GM AT flour a great deal...

Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: nepa-pizza-snob on October 24, 2006, 10:01:04 PM

I bought a heavy duty pizza stone at a rest. supply store  and it has made a world of difference but,
I too have been having the most success using All Trumps at 60-61% with a fair amount of salt, no sugar or oil - very little ADY and a 12-15 min hand kneading period following 5 min kneading - 1 min rest. I do 4) 12-14" balls at a time and knead the whole thing in a line. I watched this technique video of some guy in Naples doing it and it works brilliant.

Dough sits in fridge for 3-6 days. I let it warm for 2+ hours before dusting with flour and stretching. Which it does easliy while
still holding its shape. (62-64% were way too extensible) It bakes up beautifully on my stone at 550 in about 6 minutes and has a wonderful brown color, real PIZZA taste, a crisp crackle on the outer most portion and a tender puffy inside that just about melts when its shaped perfectly proportional.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: waruwaru on October 27, 2006, 02:35:47 AM
waruwaru,

Thanks for posting your photos. I think you may be the first member to post photos on this thread for a Lehmann pizza baked in an Egg.

I like the idea of the tomato, sausage and clam pizza. Combining meat with seafood gives the pizza a Portuguese flair.

Peter

No problem for the pics!  I think there are at least a few eggers in this forum. :)  Btw, I had some left over pizzas the days after, the crust was very flavorful.  Thanks again!
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: abc on November 02, 2006, 09:28:17 PM
abc and Wally,


If the above analysis is correct, then it is quite possible that the All Trumps flour is subject to a shorter fermentation window than the King Arthur flour. The lower FN for the All Trumps flour seems consistent with this assessment and suggests that a shorter fermentation time should be used for the All Trumps than the KASL. To compensate, it may be possible to add some diastatic malt to the All Trumps to increase the amylase enzyme performance and thereby help  extract more sugars from the damaged starch in the All Trumps flour so that more of it is present in the dough at the time of baking to contribute to crust coloration. It may also be possible to add ordinary sugar or possibly barley malt syrup (nondiastatic) to the dough to accomplish much the same result, although one has to be careful not to use too much because of the potential of the bottom crust prematurely browning when the pizza is baked on a hot stone. If diastatic malt is use, the recommended rate is about 0.5-1.0% of the weight of formula flour. Above that, there is the potential of the dough becoming gummy and the finished crust may have a reddish color. A common brand of diastatic malt is Bob's Red Mill.

Peter


Pete... i started to wonder, even with the thought of a shorter fermentation be used for AT...  we are talking 3-4 days instead of 4-5?  would it even make a difference, because i'd imagine most people use the dough bet. 2-3 days.

meanwhile, I just mixed 50/50 ratio of KASL and AT flour for 4 16" doughs.  I've been building up to this big test... I'm going to see how this hybrid dough pans out.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on November 03, 2006, 10:31:26 AM
abc,

Since All Trumps is a professional's flour, I'd venture to say that most pizza operators don't ferment their doughs for more than a day, even for a cold ferment (and most likely a lot less than a day if room temperature fermentation is used). The issue of coloration I mentioned may not show up until a few days longer. If you would like to try using some diastatic malt with your All Trumps, I'd be happy to put some in an envelope and send it to you (at no cost). I don't have any All Trumps but I have quite a bit of diastatic malt, from Bob's Red Mill. I think it would be an interesting experiment, so if you want to send me a PM with an address, I will send some diastatic malt out to you.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: mivler on November 11, 2006, 12:48:21 AM
Hi,

Sorry if this has come up, I recently started reading this thread for the first time. I have a question for Pete-zza (or anyone else that might be able to answer the question). I noticed at some point someone mentioned loosely covering the tin (or Tupperware) for the first hour when it is put into the fridge to allow the dough to dry a bit and not develop moisture. As some point along the way (at least as far as I have read), it looks like Pete-zza stopped doing this and now covers it as soon as it goes into the fridge. I was wondering what the reasoning was for not doing this anymore or if you still do it and just don’t mention it.

Thanks,

Michael
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on November 11, 2006, 10:32:33 AM
Michael,

You are very observant. I completely forgot about that technique. I believe I first noted the technique for use in a home refrigerator setting from member giotto. I don't recall offhand whether he was trying to emulate the practice recommended by Tom Lehmann or other professionals, but Tom routinely recommends that the trays of dough balls be cross stacked in the cooler for about 1 1/2-2 hours and then be downstacked for the rest of their stay in the cooler.  The reason for the cross stacking is to allow heat to escape, so that the dough balls don't dry out, and to prevent moisture from condensing and wetting the dough balls. He says that failure to down stack can sometimes even lead to the dough balls "blowing" while in the cooler.

In my case, with only a single dough ball or two, and using separate containers, I concluded that the cross stacking was unlikely to have a material effect. Hence, I stopped using it. However, one thing I have been doing instead is to place a sheet of paper towel between the lid for my container (metal or plastic) and the rest of the container. The paper towel will become slightly moist and it will also keep moisture that condenses on the inside of the lid of the container from getting to the dough ball in the container. I haven't done any specific testing to see if this is really necessary, hence I have not discussed it much on the forum before, and even then only casually. The paper towel does however do the job of picking up some of the moisture and keeping the dough ball dry.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: mivler on November 13, 2006, 01:09:55 PM
Thanks for the simple solution.

Michael
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: enchant on November 14, 2006, 08:12:43 AM
He says that failure to down stack can sometimes even lead to the dough balls "blowing" while in the cooler.
"blowing"?  I can't find that one on the glossary.  Can you 'splain it?

There are occasions when my dough blows, but I'm guessing we're talking about different things.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on November 14, 2006, 10:05:33 AM
Pat,

"Blowing" is what can happen to a dough if it overproofs (rises too quickly) while in the refrigerator or cooler. Usually, it is a temperature-related problem, sometimes accompanied by using too much yeast. It's less of a problem in a home setting where you are only trying to cool down a few dough balls but it can be a big problem when you are trying to cool down several boxes of dough balls. That's a big reason why Tom Lehmann advocates that operators try to keep their finished dough temperatures at around 80 degrees F and get the dough balls into the cooler as quickly as possible, before they have a chance to get "gassy".

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on December 01, 2006, 10:48:58 AM
As regular readers of this thread may be aware, I have been experimenting with a new dough making method using my standard C-hook KitchenAid mixer. Because of my intimate familiarity with the basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation, I have used that formulation as a guinea pig for the new method. The new dough making method, which is described at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg33251.html#msg33251, was used recently to make doughs that had useful lives of up to 7 days. More recently, I extended that to a bit over 10 days (10 days and 4 1/2 hours, to be more exact). For those who are interested in these sorts of things, the details of my latest experiment, including the Lehmann dough formulation I used for test purposes, are presented at Reply 23 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg35370.html#msg35370. A typical photo of the finished pizza is shown below.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Troy T on December 14, 2006, 12:38:23 PM
I have been a long time lurker here.  I am finely going to stop lurking and make some pizza.
This is a Great board with almost an endless amount of information and outstanding support by it members.  I hopefully will be able to add my two cents in someday. 

I will be trying my first attempt at making pizza dough on Sunday.  I will be using Tom’s recipe for a 12” pie and I have a few questions;

Lehmann recipe for one 12-inch pizza
Flour (100%), KASL high-gluten, 7.15 oz. (1 1/2 c. plus 2 T.)
Water (63%), 4.50 oz. (between 1/2 c. and 5/8 c.)
Salt (1.75%), 0.13 oz. (a bit over 5/8 t.)
Oil (1%), 0.07 oz. (a bit less than 1/2 t.)
IDY (0.25%), 0.02 oz. (1/6 t., or about 7 pinches between the thumb and forefinger)
Total dough ball weight = 11.87 oz.
Thickness factor (TF) = 0.105

The only flour I could come up with so far was KA All Purpose. 
I will be cooking this directly on a stone, and can use ether a KA Mixer or a Food Processor.
Do I need to change anything in the formula for this type of flour?  I am think maybe less water due to the lower gluten?  What about the fermentation time 24 or 48 or more hrs?  Anything you can add will be greatly appreciated.

Troy
 
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on December 14, 2006, 01:11:11 PM
Troy,

I think I would be inclined to reduce the hydration (the amount of water in relation to the flour) to 60%. Also, if it is cold where you live, I think I would increase the amount of instant dry yeast (IDY) a bit, to around 0.40%. I ran these changes through the Lehmann dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/dough_calculator.html and got the following results:

Flour (100%):          206.35 g  |  7.28 oz | 0.45 lbs
Water (60%):          123.81 g  |  4.37 oz | 0.27 lbs
Oil (1%):                  2.06 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.44 tsp | 0.15 tbsp
Salt (1.75%):           3.61 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.65 tsp | 0.22 tbsp
IDY (0.40%):            0.83 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.27 tsp | 0.09 tbsp
Sugar (0%):             0 g | 0 oz | 0 lbs | 0 tsp | 0 tbsp
Total (163.15%):     336.66 g | 11.88 oz | 0.74 lbs | TF = 0.105

In terms of instructions when using a KitchenAid stand mixer, you may find the following post of interest:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.msg19563.html#msg19563 (Reply 8). There are also many other tips and pointers at the same thread that you might find useful. If you decide that you would rather use a food processor, then this thread may prove of use to you:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2189.msg19289.html#msg19289.

I think 24-48 hours of cold fermentation should work out well for you.

At some point, you may want to investigate the possibility of getting some bread flour. King Arthur makes a very good brand that is found in many supermarkets and food stores. It also works well for a Lehmann style dough and will usually tolerate high hydration levels.

Good luck.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: chiguy on December 14, 2006, 07:08:20 PM
 Hi Troy T,
 Pete-zza is correct about trying to get you're hands on at least some KA Bread flour or high gluten. This is important from a standpoint of texture/chew in the crust consistent with a N.Y. street pizza. Also the fact that the N.Y.  Lehmann formulas call for the use of a stronger flour. Even if you do not have access to High gluten a Pillsbury bread flour would be better to use for a higher protien content than the KA all purpose. I think you can find Pillsbury Bread flour almost anywhere.    Chiguy
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on December 15, 2006, 09:18:46 AM
In keeping with my recent experiments with the basic Lehmann dough formulation using the new KitchenAid dough making method described in http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.0.html, I recently made a 16” pizza using that method. The details of that effort, including the particular Lehmann dough formulation I used, are set forth at this post: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg36081.html#msg36081 (Reply 29).

The significance of the most recent effort is that the dough was cold fermented for over 12 days before using, with very good results. A typical photo of the finished pizza is shown below.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Troy T on December 15, 2006, 03:52:54 PM
Thanks guys for quick responses and the info.  I will try to get some bread flour for the next pizza, that way I will know the difference. I will post my results with the AP flour.

Troy
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: giotto on December 15, 2006, 11:11:58 PM
On several occassions, I've left my dough in the refrigerator for at least a week. This was normally an accident though. With an exception to some loss of color, the pizza came out fine. But I don't believe the taste matched the degree of taste that I receive here in the San Francisco area with starters that I've produced or with sour dough breads that I've eaten. And rather than wait for that long for my pizza dough, I think I'd rather just work with a starter when I wish for that type of taste.

I believe that a few things have contributed to my ability to delay the dough fermentation.

- I use Active Dry Yeast rather than Instant, because I am not looking for instant results.  Although these yeasts are becoming closer in nature, I have found them still to be different.

- I no longer proof my yeast, since I'm looking to delay the yeast activity and I don't store my yeast that long.

- I always work with cool water, and I intermix my time between hand mixing and Kitchen Aid kneading.

- I still prefer a resting period. But I first add the full amount of water along with all ingredients (except yeast), then an amount of flour equivalent in weight to the full amount of water.  At times, I then add the yeast on top of the flour. On other occassions, I prefer to wait until the second batch of flour is added. I use a strong spatula to bring it together at this stage, which is easy because it's like a batter.

- After a resting period, I add the final amount of flour and then the yeast (if I have not added it already). I then do an initial mix by spatula and bring it together with my Kitchenaid mixer on the usual number 1. This takes less than a minute.

- I remove the dough from the hook (since it's always climbing). Then I continue on #1 for 2 minutes. By now, it's pretty smooth. I hand knead to get a feel for the dough (stickiness, etc.) for maybe a minute. Then I finish it off for another minute or two. I see no need for lengthy processing times, since I am only working with 3 or so doughs at a time, and I prefer an airy texture.

- If I'm going to use the dough in the next 2 days or so, I just split it up immediately and bag it. Otherwise, I stick it in a tin until I'm ready to use it, and then split it up and bag it the night before I use it.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on December 16, 2006, 09:17:40 AM
giotto,

I recall some of our discussions in the past on the forum regarding the late addition of active dry yeast to the dough and, it was with those discussions in mind, along with a more recent suggestion by member petesopizza, that I experimented recently with the late addition of IDY and the use of cold water as a way of extending the window of usability of the finished dough (a dough based on the Lehmann formulation) without sacrificing much, if anything, in the way of crust color, flavor or texture. As you will see, the collective suggestions were acknowledged in these two posts:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3587.msg30329.html#msg30329 and
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3919.msg32928/topicseen.html#msg32928.

As I noted yesterday on another thread, I plan at some point to use ADY instead of IDY in the new dough making method I have been using, but that is mainly to learn something new from the experiment. If my recent experiments have proved anything, I think it is that there is a lot of sugar locked up in the flour that can be released, or new sugars formed as postulated by member November, over a long period of fermentation. In my most recent experiment I increased the amount of yeast by more than twice the amount I normally use with the Lehmann dough formulation and that didn't seem to affect the results from a dough longevity standpoint.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: giotto on December 16, 2006, 06:02:04 PM
Commercial yeast is aggressive. Refrigeration slows yeast activity; but as we know, it doesn't stop it. So I'm not surprised with minimal impact of additional yeast. I still take precaution. I have used cool water for some time now and don't even proof ADY any longer as mentioned above (I found with varous bread machine books and Pete-zza found with his Zo machine book a long time ago, it's not uncommon for ADY to be recommended with flour without proofing).

The type of flour is important to availability of sugar being locked up though. Organic flours like Giusto's Organic flours may not do so well. A discussion on this topic is covered here:
http://home.comcast.net/~keck-foundation1/pizza-crust-color.html
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Troy T on December 17, 2006, 10:04:09 AM
Peter,
Could you please explain the cold temperatures and the amount of yeast used.  My house stays 72-74 all year round, no mater what the outside temperature is.  What would you consider the house temperatures vs using higher or normal yeast percentages?  Would not the final dough temperature be the deciding factor since it is a cold ferment?  Also awhile back I read a thread where you discussed a formula to get the correct water temperature for the proper finished dough temperature, can’t seem to find it again, can you please point it out?

Thanks,
Troy
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on December 17, 2006, 10:37:28 AM
Troy,

I control water temperature and the amount of yeast I use based on the results I am trying to achieve and also to adjust for seasonal temperature variations. For example, if I want a dough to have a long fermentation, and all else being equal, I usually use colder water, less yeast, or a combination of both. If I want a dough to have a short fermentation, I usually use warmer water, more yeast, or a combination of both. Where I live in Texas, I am subject to seasonal changes in temperature, so as a precautionary measure I will often increase the amount of yeast in a dough formulation in winter, and reduce it in summer. If your room temperature is the same year round, you should be able to use pretty much the same dough formulation year round.

Irrespective of what I do in making my dough, I do pay attention to the finished dough temperature, and do my best to get it in the 70-80 degrees F range. Sometimes it falls a bit out of that range, but not by enough to pose a problem. Close is good enough. I think you will find this article of help in understanding how to control the finished dough temperature of your doughs: http://www.pmq.com/mag/2003spring/tom_lehmann.shtml. (http://www.pmq.com/mag/2003spring/tom_lehmann.shtml.) The trickiest part is determining the friction factor for your particular machine since it will vary depending on the machine and model used, dough batch size, machine speeds used, and other related factors. However, once you calculate it for a particular dough batch size, the value is usually close enough to use in a more general way. You can also use a less technical way of determining the proper water temperature based on a series of tests, as noted in the article.

Good luck.

Peter

EDIT (5/15/14): Since the link to the above Lehmann article is no longer operative, see the Wayback Machine link to the same article at http://web.archive.org/web/20070502014430/http://www.pmq.com/mag/2003spring/tom_lehmann.shtml (http://web.archive.org/web/20070502014430/http://www.pmq.com/mag/2003spring/tom_lehmann.shtml)
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Troy T on December 20, 2006, 10:34:29 AM
My first pizza, very good, but far from perfect.
I made my first dough on Sunday using the following recipe;

Flour (100%):          206.35 g  |  7.30 oz | 0.45 lbs
Water (60%):          123.81 g  |  4.40 oz | 0.27 lbs
Oil (1%):                  2.06 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.44 tsp | 0.15 tbsp
Salt (1.75%):           3.61 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.65 tsp | 0.22 tbsp
IDY (0.40%):            0.83 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.27 tsp | 0.09 tbsp
Sugar (0%):             0 g | 0 oz | 0 lbs | 0 tsp | 0 tbsp
Total (163.15%):     336.66 g | 11.88 oz | 0.74 lbs | TF = 0.105

All ingredients were measured by weight even the small ones, as I have a ammo reloading scale that measures down to .1 Grains. (1 Gram=15.43 Grains).  I rounded up from the original recipe flour and water weights due to my kitchen scale only weighing in .05 Oz increments.

I mixed the dough in a KA Professional 6 with a C-type dough hook.  The KA mixed the dough in to a ball fairly quickly, the dough was dry so I added about a teaspoon of water.  The mixer did not knead the dough very well at all, I am guessing due to the small batch size, so I kneaded it about 3 minutes by hand.  I could not get the ball smooth as some of the pictures I have seen of finished dough balls.  This one had a few cracks in it…Possibly due to under hydration or under kneading?

After 24 hours in the fridge, I inspected the dough and found it had absorbed the oil and was starting to form a skin.  I applied some more oil and put it back into the fridge. 

Below is a picture of the dough after 48 hours, it had many crevasses and craters in it and again not much like the pictures I have seen in the past for fermented dough. I set the dough on a floured counter with a little on top and covered it with plastic wrap.  It rested 2 hours and had a final temperature of 67 degrees. The dough was very easy to work with.  No other bench flour was needed to from the pizza other than the flour used for resting.

The final results are shown below.  The crust nice and crisp and had a great flavor, the center was somewhat dense and was very chewy.   Over all I thought it was very good for my first attempt.  I did not think it should have been that chewy and I would like the crust to be a little more airy and less dense.  I thought the AP flour made was suppose to make softer crust?  Again I believe it may have had something to due with the kneading or the hydration levels…Any suggestions on this.

Thank you in advance for your comments and suggestions.

Troy
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: dinks on December 20, 2006, 11:15:03 AM
TROY-T.
   Good morning to you. Troy, I am responding because you asked for comments & suggestions. One reason you expierenced a dense dough as opposed to a airy dough mass is  because the ratio of salt & yeast is not proper.
Let me explain, You are using .4% yeast & 1.75% salt. That equats to almost 5X the amount of yeast.  As you know Troy, salt does 2 things in a yeasted lean bread dough. It provides flavor & 2nd, it controls the yeast activity & also I might add it helps control bacteria growth as well. When the salt came into contact with the yeast before the yeast began it's activity the salt began to destoy the minimum amount of yeast that you employed. Hence  your dough mass was dense. Troy as you further know, salt requires hydration your hydration amount is proper but the large amount of salt used more than it's share of hydration because of the excess amount. I believe your recipe is a viable pizza recipe. However, humor me Troy, increase the yeast slightly to 5/8ths (.625)% off the flour. Reduce the salt amount to twice the yeast amount in weight. One more thing Troy, please consider adding the salt during the last 4 minutes of mixing. I will tell you why. First of all this is the way the world class bakers do it & for a reason... besides the reasons as aforemention, when salt is added to the dough mass it has a tendency to "TIGHTEN" up the dough mass, hence the why of the MIXER didn't mix the dough very well. There is nothing wrong with your mixer that a proper mixing proceedure cannot help. One more thing, The reason your dough didn't handle well at the beginning is your dough gluten was suffering due to the battle of the salt & yeast.
But Troy as you know as it slowly ferments the gluten begins to become stronger that is part & parcel of the fermentation sequence, hence the why it began to handle better as time went on. Troy I am finished now. I hope you will try my suggestions. Good luck to you my friend & enjoy the rest of the day.

  ~DINKS.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: November on December 20, 2006, 11:42:15 AM
dinks,

Are you sure your 2:1 ratio isn't for ADY?  The ADY equivalent of Troy's posted formula is about 2:1.  It seems like Troy is using a fairly normal amount to me.

- red.november
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on December 20, 2006, 03:09:11 PM
Dinks,

As I have reported before, possibly before you became a member of the forum, on the Lehmann thread I have always tried to be faithful to the basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation in my adaptation of that formulation to a home environment. The Lehmann dough formulation is essentially the one posted at the Recipe Bank at the PMQ.com website at http://www.pmq.com/recipe/view_recipe.php?id=52.

From time to time I have deviated from the Lehmann dough formulation and/or the instructions largely for experimental purposes, but by and large I have tried to follow the instructions given by Tom Lehmann in making doughs based on his formulation. For example, the instructions call for adding the salt to the water and adding the yeast (e.g., IDY) to the flour. When I do this, I thoroughly dissolve the salt in the water so that it gets its hydration from the water rather than from fluids from the yeast cells themselves. This is a common approach, and one that pizzanapoletana (Marco) stressed to me and others some time ago as being the proper way to deal with the salt in relation to the yeast. It is also the approach that has been used for time immemorial in Naples with Neapolitan doughs. Since the IDY is dispersed in the flour, it does not get immediate and direct contact with the salt. It might even begin rehydration by virtue of being exposed to moisture in the flour before the flour and yeast are added to the water.

As for the relative quantities of yeast and salt, I have used as little as 0.17% IDY with 1.75% salt. I am sure that on some occasion I used even less yeast. I described one Lehmann experiment I conducted using 0.17% IDY, with very good results, at
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg17956.html#msg17956 (Reply 280). I have long theorized that the high percentage of salt in relation to the yeast in the Lehmann dough formulation, along with regulating the finished dough temperature, was intentional--to keep the dough balls from rising too much in the dough boxes or dough trays while under refrigeration. As you know, salt acts as a regulator of the fermentation process and its use at fairly high levels helps restrain volume growth of the dough. Keeping the dough balls compact and slow fermenting seems to be consistent with the dough management and inventory practices commonly used by pizza operators.

Troy should by all means try using more yeast as you suggest, or even less salt, although I don’t deem the present ratio to be out of order based on my experimentation with the Lehmann dough formulation. I once by mistake tripled the recited amount of IDY in the basic Lehmann dough formulation and got very good results. So I know that using more yeast works. Troy might also try adding the salt late in the dough making process, as you also suggest. I have done this on occasion when using the classic Professor Calvel autolyse method that you some time ago described to me. I have even reported on my results from doing this elsewhere in this thread. Many of our members are very fond of using autolyse of similar rest periods when making their doughs, including the Lehmann doughs, so it is clearly an option that Troy might want to consider once he feels he is ready to tackle that aspect of his dough preparation.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on December 20, 2006, 04:30:58 PM
Troy,

By and large, I think your maiden effort with the Lehmann dough formulation turned out quite well. This leads me to believe that using bread flour may be something you may want to consider in a future effort.

I also think you put your finger on some of the causes of the stiffness in the dough. Looking at your photos, the crevices and cracks in your dough are typical of those often found in doughs that are under-hydrated, that is, don’t contain enough water in relation to the amount of flour. If that was the problem in your case, then the simple solution is to just increase the amount of water. To modify the Lehmann dough formulation to achieve this objective, you can visit the Lehmann dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/dough_calculator.html (http://www.pizzamaking.com/dough_calculator.html) and reenter the baker’s percents you last used but change the hydration percent to something above the 60% you used. Even then, you might find that you need more water to get the desired finished dough consistency and feel at the end of the dough making process.

Note also that at this time of year, doughs can also turn out a bit drier because of room temperature and humidity factors. Tom Lehmann discussed this aspect of dough making in a PMQ article at http://www.pmq.com/mag/2006march/lehmann.php. (http://www.pmq.com/mag/2006march/lehmann.php.) Remember also that even when one accurately measures out ingredients, there is frequently a need to make minor adjustments in the mixer bowl. BTW, I wouldn’t become too preoccupied with trying to weigh out the lightweight ingredients like salt, yeast and oil (and sugar, if used). I, too, have a special scale for weighing out small quantities of lightweight ingredients but I have discovered that the volume measurements recited in the Lehmann data are quite accurate. Weighing out the flour and water should be sufficient for your purposes.

If you’d like, you can also alter the Lehmann dough formulation to produce a smaller dough ball weight that, when used to make the same size pizza you made, can have a thinner finished crust. The easy way to do this using the Lehmann tool is to use a smaller thickness factor. For example, you might try using 0.095-0.10. I can't promise you that the crust will be less chewy. That is a crust characteristic that is common with the Lehmann NY style. Using a higher protein flour usually increases the chewiness of the crust. But it may not be as noticeable if you use a thinner crust.

Like you, I have difficulties making small amounts of dough using my KitchenAid stand mixer with the C-hook. For this reason, I have been experimenting lately with alternative approaches to prepare my pizza doughs (including Lehmann doughs), which I have discussed at this thread: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg33251.html#msg33251. (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg33251.html#msg33251.) I am not proposing that you abandon your current approach in favor of the one I have been testing, but there are some simple measures that you can take that I think will improve the hydration and quality of your dough. For example, using sifted flour and the whisk and flat beater attachments of your KitchenAid mixer can improve the handling qualities of the dough, even at high hydration levels. I discovered also that I can dispense with the flat beater attachment and finish the kneading process by hand, in the bowl and on the work surface. If someone doesn't have a stand mixer, the action of the whisk can be replaced by an electric hand mixer operated at low speed.

Peter

EDIT (3/22/13): For the Wayback Machine link to the Lehmann PMQ article, see http://web.archive.org/web/20110824144931/http://pmq.com/mag/2006march/lehmann.php (http://web.archive.org/web/20110824144931/http://pmq.com/mag/2006march/lehmann.php)
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: chiguy on December 20, 2006, 06:54:05 PM
 Troy t,
The cracks you see in the dough ball are caused by the lack of kneading.  A 3 minutes hand knead will not be enough to develop a uniform gluten structure. The lack of gluten structure is also when you see bubbles form in the dough ball.
 As lehmann has explained the dough should be mixed until it has a smooth satin appearance. I think you have done a nice job but you will need too increase the mix time or the hand knead time at the very least 5-10 minutes. Also it may help to incorporate a bowl rest/autolyse in the mixing process.     Chiguy
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: joebot on December 21, 2006, 08:29:27 PM
Ok, little problem with lehmanns style last weekend. I made up 2 -12 inch - Lehmann recipe for two 12-inch pizzas
Flour (100%), KASL high-gluten, 14.30 oz. (3 c. plus 3 T. plus 1 t.)
Water (63%), 9.01 oz. (1 1/8 c.)
Salt (1.75%), 0.25 oz. (a bit over 1 1/4 t.)
Oil (1%), 0.14 oz. (7/8 t.)
IDY (0.25%), 0.04 oz. (a bit over 1/3 t.)
Total dough ball weight = 23.74 oz.
Thickness factor (TF) = 0.105
 
the dough looked fine and was mixed for about 10 minutes on 2nd speed, i included a 20 min autolyse and the dough rested in the fridge  for 24 hours before being taken out and left to warm for 2 hours. When I tried to handle the dough it was sticky, soupy and tried to get away from me - it stretched out and was very slack. So did I over work the dough,under work it or what? The dough ball was about 78° when it went in the fridge, and I used the method that Pete-zza posted for mixing in the thread fo the NY Lehmann style pizzas. The dough used was HG from Eagle mills that I get from a baker down the street.
 Thanks for any help or ideas.

 
 Joe   
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on December 21, 2006, 09:34:40 PM
Joe,

Did you use weight or volume measurements and, if volume measurements were used, how did you measure out the flour and water using your measuring cups? I used to convert weight measurements of flour to volume measurements as an accommodation to those who did not use scales but I was subsequently informed that I tend to have a light hand in making those types of conversions. Hence, I have stopped the practice of making those conversions. Instead, one would be better advised to use member November's mass/volume tool at http://foodsim.toastguard.com/.

Apart from the above possibility, and assuming that you did not make an error in measuring out the flour and water, which can easily happen if volume measurements were used, it is possible that your hydration level was too high in relation to the flour you used. From what I have been able to determine, the Eagle Mills flour is a ConAgra bread flour made from hard white wheat. It is intended for artisan type breads, and pizza dough is not among the specified applications listed at the ConAgra website. Most high-gluten flours are made of hard red spring wheat. Like the KASL, ConAgra's high-gluten flours are made from hard red spring wheat and are specified for use in making pizza doughs and other bread products. I don't know the absorption rate of the Eagle Mills flour but I would guess that it is maybe a few percent lower than the 63% hydration you used. Next time I would lower the hydration percent if you plan to continue to use the Eagle Mills flour. If you use the Lehmann dough calculator you should be able to recalculate the ingredient quantities so that the total dough weight remains the same. 

You also indicated that you kneaded the dough at speed 2 for ten minutes and that the finished dough temperature was 78 degrees F. It's possible that the dough fermented at a faster rate because of the elevated finished dough temperature but if you put the dough promptly into the refrigerator it should have held up well enough to be workable in normal fashion after 24 hours. Over time I have gravitated toward shorter overall knead times at lower mixer speeds but I don't think what you did was the source of the problem you experienced.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: joebot on December 22, 2006, 07:00:44 AM
Joe,

Did you use weight or volume measurements and, if volume measurements were used, how did you measure out the flour and water using your measuring cups? I used to convert weight measurements of flour to volume measurements as an accommodation to those who did not use scales but I was subsequently informed that I tend to have a light hand in making those types of conversions. Hence, I have stopped the practice of making those conversions. Instead, one would be better advised to use member November's mass/volume tool at http://foodsim.toastguard.com/.

Apart from the above possibility, and assuming that you did not make an error in measuring out the flour and water, which can easily happen if volume measurements were used, it is possible that your hydration level was too high in relation to the flour you used. From what I have been able to determine, the Eagle Mills flour is a ConAgra bread flour made from hard white wheat. It is intended for artisan type breads, and pizza dough is not among the specified applications listed at the ConAgra website. Most high-gluten flours are made of hard red spring wheat. Like the KASL, ConAgra's high-gluten flours are made from hard red spring wheat and are specified for use in making pizza doughs and other bread products. I don't know the absorption rate of the Eagle Mills flour but I would guess that it is maybe a few percent lower than the 63% hydration you used. Next time I would lower the hydration percent if you plan to continue to use the Eagle Mills flour. If you use the Lehmann dough calculator you should be able to recalculate the ingredient quantities so that the total dough weight remains the same. 

You also indicated that you kneaded the dough at speed 2 for ten minutes and that the finished dough temperature was 78 degrees F. It's possible that the dough fermented at a faster rate because of the elevated finished dough temperature but if you put the dough promptly into the refrigerator it should have held up well enough to be workable in normal fashion after 24 hours. Over time I have gravitated toward shorter overall knead times at lower mixer speeds but I don't think what you did was the source of the problem you experienced.

Peter


Oops yea, I finally got a 11 lb digital scale a few weeks ago, I weighed the water and the flour and used tsps/Tbsps, for the yeast and salt etc. So do you think that I'd be better off just using KABF for making any of the NY style doughs instead of the other stuff?
Thanks for the help Pete!
 
  Joe   
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on December 22, 2006, 09:12:43 AM
Joe,

It's up to you whether you should switch to the KABF, but until you get a better fix on the problem I think I would just reformulate the Lehmann dough recipe using less water (lower hydration percent) but still using your Eagle Mills flour. You might also take a look at this post: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.msg19563.html#msg19563 (Reply 8). That post describes the way I was using my KitchenAid mixer before I started experimenting with alternative mixing methods recently. The post is silent on mix/knead times because those times vary depending on dough batch size, among other factors. The key thing is to strive to get the finished dough characteristics described in the post.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on December 24, 2006, 03:51:31 PM
For those Lehmann dough fans who do not have a stand mixer but have an electric hand mixer, a sieve (or flour sifter), and don't mind doing a few minutes of hand kneading, I recently achieved very good results using just those two implements (plus a bowl and spoon). Details and photos are presented at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg36489.html#msg36489 (Reply 30).

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on January 06, 2007, 11:00:00 AM
Today, as part of my continuing experiments using the new KitchenAid dough making method to make Lehmann NY style pizzas (among others), I described the latest experiment in which I used non-rehydrated active dry yeast (ADY). The post in which the results are presented is at Reply 35 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg37060.html#msg37060. Apart from using the new method, the sequencing of ingredients was as I normally use with a Lehmann dough but for the addition of the (non-rehydrated) ADY at the end of the dough making process rather than in hydrated form at the beginning of the process. The dough lasted around 6 1/3 days before using, with very good results. A representative photo is shown below.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: turbosundance on January 06, 2007, 11:50:19 AM
Speaking of KitchenAids, I just recently modified my old bread maker so that I could turn the kneading paddle on and off with a switch.  I'm planning to use this machine to knead my dough in the future.  When I fist started making pizza dough I used to use the bread maker but was never vewry good .  The bread maker would always warm the dough I could never control when it would knead.  It always seemed to overknead the dough and it rose way too quickly.

Anyway, do you think that my modified bread machine would make a good kitchen aid substitute? 
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on January 06, 2007, 04:12:12 PM
turbosundance,

The basic Lehmann dough recipe is a commercial recipe that is intended to be used to make dough that is slightly underkneaded and, ideally, has a finished dough temperature when it goes into the cooler of 80-85 degrees F (the corresponding number for a home refrigerator is between 75-80 degree F, but favoring the 75 degree number).

As I see it, a shortcoming of many bread makers is that they have pre-heat cycles and knead the dough too long and, in the process, create a lot of heat such that the finished dough temperature can far exceed the recommended range. That isn’t necessarily fatal but it can shorten the useful life of the dough and the finished crust can be soft and breadlike rather than chewy with “tooth” to it. That said, there are bread makers that apparently have a special pizza dough cycle (although I have never investigated what it really is), and in some machines the heat can be turned off during kneading. My bread maker (a Zojirushi) does not have either feature. So, to create a dough that was slightly underkneaded and with a finished dough temperature in the desired range, I had to take measures to reduce the amount of kneading and reduce the heat. In case you are interested, I discussed the measures I took at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg5486.html#msg5486 (Reply 51) and at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg17113.html#msg17113 (Reply 260). Maybe some of these measures will work in your case, or perhaps they may not be necessary at all. You will have to experiment with your bread machine to see whether the results require taking measures such as I took with my machine.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: turbosundance on January 06, 2007, 06:46:55 PM
I actually used the machine to make some dough this morning.  It worked great.  MY bread makekr doesn't have a pizza dough cycle so it would always make finished dough temperature way too high and it would over knead if I forgot about it.  It'a an old breadmaker that I never use for anything else other than making pizza dough so I decided to make some changes.  I ripped out all the controls and the heating element.  Now I just have a switch on the top of the machien that turns on the paddle.  I  just have to make sure I time the dough and dont over knead it.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: November on January 06, 2007, 10:16:48 PM
Converted breadmakers can certainly be very good for kneading pizza dough.  After all, they're built specialized for kneading dough.  Having control over the temperature and amount of kneading is all you need.

- red.november
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Troy T on January 12, 2007, 12:21:11 PM
Thanks everyone for the responses. 
I finally got a chance to give this another try this week.  I used KA Bread flour this time, and changed the hydration to the standard 63%.  I was able to make a height adjustment to my KA mixer to get the C-hook closer to the bowl.  It did good job this time at kneading this small 12” batch.  The final dough temperature was 77 had no cracks in it like last time. I did make one mistake I used about 1/2 -3/4 tsp more oil then what was called for.  This will teach me not to measure ingredients over the bowl.   The one problem I had was when I removed the dough from the fridge 49 hours later it raised about 25% and had a couple of large bubbles on top, lots of small ones on bottom and was stuck to the bowl.  I did coat the bowl with oil and I also coated my hands with oil and rubbed it all over the ball before placing it in the bowl. What would cause this? I did check my fridge temperature and it is 34 (I like my beer very cold).  Is this temperature to low? Any suggestions on this?

I was skeptical at first of using the bread flour because when I used the AP flour is turned out very chewy and did not want it any chewier.  How ever with the problems encountered, the crust was not that chewy at all, not only was this the best crust I have ever made but was one of the best I ever had!   I can not compare it to anything due to the fact I have never had a NY style Pizza before.  Would the extra oil I mistakenly added have anything to do with the crust chew? The dough was not greasy at all.

Sorry no pictures this time, this pizza was made while watching the BCS Bowl.

Troy
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on January 12, 2007, 08:24:40 PM
Troy,

Maybe my memory is faulty, but I can't recall ever having bubbles form on a Lehmann dough within a two-day period. Your refrigerator is on the cool side as home refrigerators go, but commercial coolers operate at similar temperatures without a problem. And your finished dough temperature was not out of whack. Usually bubbles form in the surface of the dough because of overfermentation, or excessive yeast, or something like that. But 49 hours isn't out of line, and especially at the finished dough temperature you achieved and the cool refrigerator compartment where you kept your dough.

The amount of oil you used shouldn't have been a problem. It was too little to produce any really noticeable effects on the pizza. It might have contributed a bit of tenderness to the crust but I don't think that adding an additional 1/2-3/4 t. would have had a significant impact.

When a dough sticks to its container, it is sometimes due to the release of water from the dough and the dough becoming slack and soft. But that usually occurs because of overfermentation. You would know because the dough becomes very extensible and hard to handle. You didn't mention anything along those lines, so I am at a loss to explain what happened in your case.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: SemperFi on January 19, 2007, 04:34:26 PM
Well,

I finally got my scale today, and Lordy, my dough balls are way too heavy.  What should weigh in at 11.31oz is topping the scales at 21+.  I least now I know why my 12" pizzas seem to be too dough heavy.  But I do wonder, how much cheese (weight wise) is considered correct for a 12" pie?  And if I was going to dress the pie with other toppings, is there a comfortable range to shoot for to not over top the pie.  I know its subjective, but was wondering if anyone has input.

Adam
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: November on January 19, 2007, 04:48:16 PM
Adam,

It is rather subjective, but it's also important as you mentioned not to overdress your pizza.  I use 280g for a 14" with two toppings, so if I were making a 12" with two toppings, I would use around 194g.

- red.november
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: SemperFi on January 19, 2007, 04:50:06 PM
Thank you November,

one last question, how about sauce?  I know that NY style is on the drier side.  Adam
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: November on January 19, 2007, 05:02:14 PM
Adam,

I think that's even more subjective.  It depends a lot on the consistency of the sauce too.  If it's a thick sauce, it may be hard to spread out very thin.  If it's a thin sauce, you really have no choice but to spread it thin.  I use one medium ladle's worth (74 cc) or 78 g of sauce, so for a 12" I would use around 51 cc or 54 g.  I don't use these proportions to follow any particular style though.  It's just what I came up with for various reasons.

- red.november

EDIT: thick/thin
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on January 19, 2007, 05:49:40 PM
Adam,

As November has indicated, there are no hard and fast rules on how much cheese (or sauce) to use, although pizza operators pay much closer attention to the amount of cheese to use because it is much more expensive than their sauces. The cheese question came up recently at the PMQ Think Tank and the answers that several pizza operators gave for the 12” pizza size ranged from 5 ounces to 8-9 ounces. Some professionals use the so-called Burke portioning guide to determine how to portion cheese, sauce and toppings on pizzas, based on whether you have a light, moderate or heavy hand. You can see an abbreviated chart on the right hand side of this page: http://www.bellissimofoods.com/pdfs/bb_0504_f.pdf. To get the complete Burke guide, it can be downloaded from the pizzamarketplace website at http://www.pizzamarketplace.com/specialpub.php?i=18. You will have to fill in a form to get the guide. I haven’t seen the latest version of the Burke guide, but please note that the earlier version erroneously gave portions for pepperoni in ounces rather than in pieces (slices), at page 23.

I also found that a Lehmann dough can hold a fair amount of toppings without succumbing to the weight. I noted this characteristic in the last paragraph of this post earlier in this thread, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg6541.html#msg6541 (Reply 82).

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: SemperFi on January 19, 2007, 06:23:51 PM
Its baffling,

People think that making pizzas is not a science.  There is so much to be considered, that I truly do believe it is an artform.  No offense to Chewie, who would prefer a robot to build his pie.  Though I have never made a truly heavy pizza, I have made pizzas that just weren't cooked enough in the middle due to too many toppings, not a good eat, to say the least.  I do seem to have the problem when I am transferring the pie from peel to stone.  The darn toppings just seem to shake way too much on top, with the inevitable mess ending on the stone, though not alot.  I'm sure that it has to do more with transferring finesse than anything else.  And I do do the small shakes (while dressing, prior to opening the oven door, and upon transferring).  Anyhoooo, thanks for the knowledge on proper dressing techniques. I can't wait to try my new scale out and build a true thought out and measured pie.  Adam
Title: Re:Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Bryan S on January 24, 2007, 08:21:40 PM
I think that one of the reasons I mentioned the salt issue was that I remember reading something (PR's American Pie I think) about using a larger amount of salt if using Kosher.
I could have sworn that it was almost double the amount of table salt. This amount seem a little extreme to say the least.  However it is easy to see that Mortons Kosher and Table salts could not possibly have the same weight at the same volume.

Whether this actually makes a considerable difference in the actual cooking I am sure Mortons has surely tested.  But to say that they are interchangable in terms of recipes makes me truly wonder how much a difference the amount of salt may play in the recipe other than taste.

1 cup Diamond Crystal kosher salt = 3/4 cup Morton kosher salt = 1/2 cup table salt (non-iodized preferred). Also, a cup of Diamond Crystal weighs 5 ounces, so if your recipe calls for 1 cup of DC kosher salt, you can safely substitute 5 oz. of any other salt.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: November on January 24, 2007, 08:44:30 PM
Bryan,

Did you get that from an online source, the package, or did you weight it yourself?  I get 173 g or 6.1 oz. for a cup of Diamond Crystal kosher salt.

- red.november
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Bryan S on January 24, 2007, 08:50:51 PM
Bryan,

Did you get that from an online source, the package, or did you weight it yourself?  I get 173 g or 6.1 oz. for a cup of Diamond Crystal kosher salt.

- red.november
This is posted over on a BBQ forum that i belong to. The question of salt comes up all the time there how much Kosher salt to use for this brand. Doug D who posts this salt info all the time referenced cooks.com I can't get Diamond here so i use Morton's Kosher but mostly i use Sea Salt.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: November on January 24, 2007, 09:03:34 PM
The reason I ask is because many times FAQs or website sources state weight measurements without taking into consideration that a cup of a granular substance will weigh more than twice that of a 1/2 cup, or more than 4 times that of a 1/4 cup.  The package indicates a cup would weigh 4.74 oz. if compaction were not considered.  Over time that might have been rounded to 5 oz.  With the difference being as much as an ounce, I wouldn't recommend 5 oz. as a weight for a cup.  I've noticed with the Diamond Crystal brand, the compaction is quite a bit higher than with other brands I've used.

Peter,

Since I know you have Diamond Crystal, if it wouldn't be too much trouble, could you please weigh 1 cup and 1/4 cup of kosher salt?  An average between us should allow me to finish the kosher salt entry on the tools page.  I left it unfinished because I ran out of the brand I started with.

- red.november
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: abc on January 24, 2007, 09:12:04 PM
Hello everyone, it's nice to see this thread nice and lively.  I took a hiatus from making pizzas, and started making some again during the holidays.  This time it was just pizza night.  Two dough balls in the fridge for about 6 to 7 days.  It had popped the lids of my plastic containers the past two nights, so i figured i need to finally use them.  Liquid from fermentation (not a lot) had started appearing... i hadn't seen this in years.  The dough was quite slack... not good for a total beginner... i had started using a wooden peel, and put extra flour on it w/ semolina.  I wasn't about to, but quickly decided to take some pics to contribute to this thread.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: abc on January 24, 2007, 09:13:00 PM
and just a couple more
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on January 24, 2007, 09:25:24 PM
Since I know you have Diamond Crystal, if it wouldn't be too much trouble, could you please weigh 1 cup and 1/4 cup of kosher salt?  An average between us should allow me to finish the kosher salt entry on the tools page.  I left it unfinished because I ran out of the brand I started with.

November,

Unfortunately, I don't have the Diamond Crystal brand of Kosher salt because it isn't sold in any of the markets where I shop. I don't remember exactly where I found the conversion data for the Diamond Crystal Kosher salt, but it came out of an internet search. What I have been using is 0.102882 ounces for one teaspoon.

I believe the conversion data I got for ordinary table salt came from actual measurements that Steve made a long time ago. My Morton's Kosher salt (coarse) conversion data came from the information on the package, which also suggests that the salt be used on the same basis as their brand of table salt, that is, teaspoon for teaspoon or cup for cup. I never took compaction into account. At the time I came up with the conversions, I was oblivious to compaction issues. A lot of times when an ingredient quantity (weight) is specified by cup, I divide that weight by 48 to get a teaspoon.

Peter



Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: November on January 24, 2007, 09:33:27 PM
Peter,

That begs the question why you asked if I had it.  Were you feeling particularly psychic that day?

- red.november
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Bryan S on January 24, 2007, 10:37:59 PM
Here's the link to the forum that i got the salt info. http://www.virtualweberbullet.com/salt.html (http://www.virtualweberbullet.com/salt.html) :-\
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on January 24, 2007, 10:49:03 PM
That begs the question why you asked if I had it.  Were you feeling particularly psychic that day?

LOL. What November is referring to is an exchange we had by PMs in which he specified salt in a recipe he gave to me. I plugged the salt number into a dough calculating tool I was testing and apparently concluded from the amount that it was Diamond Crystal salt. Since I didn't have any Diamond Crystal salt I wanted confirmation from November so that I could substitute my Morton's salt for the Diamond Crystal if necessary. The updated version of the Lehmann dough calculating tool will offer both brands of Kosher salt.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: November on January 24, 2007, 11:00:03 PM
Bryan,

Thanks for the link.  Some of that information, like Diamond Crystal's kosher salt dissolving faster, is quite accurate, but I'm here to say that isn't what it weighs in any of my 1-cup measuring cups.

- red.november
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on January 24, 2007, 11:02:25 PM
The different Kosher salts were discussed here, http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3606.msg30417.html#msg30417, and also in another thread linked in that thread.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: November on January 24, 2007, 11:16:47 PM
Peter,

I actually remember reading those posts months ago, but at the time I didn't have Diamond Crystal brand kosher salt.  For 1 teaspoon, I get 3.4g.

- red.november
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on January 25, 2007, 10:34:06 AM
November,

Thanks for the information on the Diamond Crystal Kosher salt.

It seems to me that there are essentially three ways for the average home pizza maker to determine conversion data for items like salt: 1) actually weigh a specified volume of the item, such as a teaspoon, on an accurate scale, 2) use the information provided by sources like nutritiondata.com and usda.gov, and 3) rely on the information provided on the label. Of the three, item 3 seems the least reliable, in part because of rounding factors. A good example of the latter is the data given on bottles of oil. I checked over two dozen different bottles of oil at the supermarket the other day and they all said that 1 tablespoon was 14 grams. It didn't matter what the oil was. There were all the same. In the case of oil, I found the nutritiondata and us.gov sites to provide more accurate data.

This morning I took several weighings of my Morton's coarse Kosher salt, using a MyWeigh digital scale accurate to 0.1 gram, and the average was 5.59 grams for a teaspoon. The box says that 1/4 teaspoon is 1.2 grams, which is 4.8 grams when multiplied by 4. I leveled the teaspoons with the flat back edge of a knife. So, it was not "scant" or "rounded" teaspoons that I used. It occurred to me that since salt is hygroscopic, and since I keep my salt in a kitchen cabinet at room temperature, the salt may have taken on some moisture which might have affected the weights on my scale. In someone else's kitchen, the results could be different.

By nature, I try to achieve accuracy and precision in what I do, and in using conversion data for the Lehmann and other dough calculating tools, I would rather have accurate and precise data than estimates. So, of the three choices mentioned above, which is the one that you deem to be the best way of achieving accurate and precise data? I realize that the average person doesn't pay much attention to how an ingredient is measured using measuring spoons. They just give it their best shot. Also, Morton's doesn't seem to deter anyone from using their Kosher salt as they would their usual table salt.

I might add that when I checked the nutritiondata and usda.gov websites I could find only data on table salt, not Kosher salt.

Peter
Edit: Corrected scale accuracy to 0.1 gram.

Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: November on January 25, 2007, 11:17:25 AM
Peter,

"It occurred to me that since salt is hygroscopic, and since I keep my salt in a kitchen cabinet at room temperature, the salt may have taken on some moisture which might have affected the weights on my scale."

I've actually contemplated mentioning this at least a dozen times in the past, but I'm not sure how many people would either find it useful because of the minute scale were dealing with, or because it just isn't that easy to understand for many people.  Water is actually less dense than sodium chloride, so the notion that salt weighs more per volume shouldn't be that obvious.  A few things have to be taken into consideration.  What kind of salt it is will matter to density related to water absorption.  If its cubic or rhombic, such as fine salt, or roundish with jagged edges like coarse salt, the average density has a better chance of increasing.  However, flakey kosher salt may simply remain the same because moisture could dissolve an exposed corner of a flake and cause an adjacent flake to "weld" itself to that flake's corner.  This would be the equivalent of clumping, but because of the flakey shape of the salt, substructures resembling A-frames could form, providing unyielding and space wasting support for the salt above.  This affects both density and compaction.

One more thing you have to keep in mind about flakey salt: since the flakes are more delicate than cubic or rhombic shapes, they have a tendency to break during rough handling (shipping) or under a lot of weight (1 cup versus 1 teaspoon).  This also modifies density.  This is also probably one of the reasons for the large discrepancy between labeling and weighing in this case.  We've talked about this before.  It is unrealistic for a manufacture to measure something at the plant and label it as such, when they know full well that the product changes before reaching the consumer.

As I mentioned before, I keep everything out of the way of humidity, so when I measure its weight, it's definitely a dry weight.  Your mileage may vary.  I prefer to take option 1 to begin with.  I almost never trust the label.  Like I said in a message some time ago, if my measurements aren't close to what the USDA reports, I investigate further into the discrepancy.

As you know, the Uncle Salmon food tools page has oils in the list.  Those densities were taken from an up-to-date physics source, so I consider them pretty reliable.

- red.november
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: SemperFi on February 02, 2007, 09:20:22 AM
Got a question concerning the weeklong rest in the cooler.  I now have a scale and did T. Leahmans recipe as follows (key points only):

Hydration:  65%
Oil:             0%
Sugar:         0%
Salt:          1.5%
ADY:           .25%

I used cold filtered water, non bleached bread flour (Gold Medal- Better for Breads), Fleischman's yeast, Kosher salt.  Made my dough balls, froze the batch.  Defrosted 2 of them (overnight in cooler), then allowed a 5 day rest in the cooler.  Rise is nice and slow, did not double though.  Bench rested for 3 hours, definite proofing here, reached double in initial size.  Oven at highest setting, 1/2" pizza stone, 8+ minutes cook time, Precious Mozzarella, Hormel Pepperoni.  Here is the thing now...the dough smelled like a city pool!  Pronounced chlorine or bleach smell, not quite overpowering, but enough to kill bread taste and pizza taste, in both pies.  Pizza looked nice (lil pale-I know, no sugar or salt...thats what you get), but it had nice crust, ciabatta like crumb, a couple of very large bubbles on rim.  What in the world happened?  Too long rest in cooler?  Dough never got freezer burned, was cool to the touch when first placed in freezer (did not take temp, sorry).  Any thought would be appreciated.  Adam

Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on February 02, 2007, 10:28:20 AM
Adam,

The basic problem is that you did not follow the proper steps to make a frozen dough, and your dough management after defrosting the dough was not correct.

To begin with, you perhaps should have used a higher protein flour, one with a content above 13%. Your bread flour perhaps has something around 12.5%. Second, you should have used considerably more yeast, perhaps close to 1% ADY. Freezing dough causes ice particles to form and, as they expand, they destroy some of the yeast cells. As a result, the leavening power of the yeast can be reduced by up to 10% or more. Hence, the need to compensate for the lost leavening power by increasing the amount of yeast. Third, you perhaps should have used a lower hydration than 65% to limit the weakening of the dough during fermentation. Fourth, it is usually recommended that the salt be increased (to improve the stability of the dough) and that both sugar (for food) and oil be used (the oil helps with the gas retention capacity of the dough). You used fairly low salt levels and no oil or sugar. The purpose and logic of these changes is discussed in somewhat greater detail under the Frozen Dough article link here:
http://www.lesaffre.fr/Eng/default.asp?cible=Services/s_Ressources.htm.

As far as your dough management is concerned, you should have used the defrosted dough the same day. As noted in this Tom Lehmann reply, http://www.pmq.com/cgi-bin/tt/index.cgi?noframes;read=8342, defrosted doughs don’t usually perform well after one day. I think what may have happened in your case is that there was an excessive amount of alcohol produced, which can be toxic to yeast at high levels. Maybe the salt also had an unintended effect because of the chlorine smell/taste you noted.

I wrote on the subject of freezing a Lehmann dough at Reply 272 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg17428.html#msg17428. Since I posted on that subject, I have gotten a bit smarter. Now I would increase the salt and rehydrate the IDY I normally use. And maybe I would increase the amount of oil a bit.

Peter

EDIT (4/29/16): For a corrected link to the Lesaffre article on frozen dough, see the Wayback Machine link to the article at http://web.archive.org/web/20071013164854/http://www.lesaffre.fr/Eng/default.asp?cible=Services/s_Ressources.htm
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: SemperFi on February 02, 2007, 12:20:40 PM
Hi Peter,

Believe it or not, I actually read your article prior to making my frozen dough attempt, but did not follow it due to past positive experiences.  Granted, prior to using my scale, I was using a ton of yeast (over 3x what the T.L. recipe called for)and included sugar and salt in my doughs, and had pretty satisfactory results.  But once I followed the T.L. recipe verbatim, I achieved negative results, with the freezing and thawing process.  Thank you so much.  I will make another attempt, following your post #272 results and T.L recipe.  You gotta love the science behind pizza making!!!!  Adam
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on February 17, 2007, 10:55:22 AM
Today, I posted the results of my most recent experiment with a Lehmann NY style dough using the new KitchenAid dough making method, at Reply 57 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg40092.html#msg40092. The aspect to the Lehmann dough that I was testing was the addition of the oil at an early stage of the dough making process. As I have reported many times before on the forum, and in this thread, Tom Lehmann advocates that the oil be added toward the end of the dough making process so that it doesn’t interfere with the hydration of the flour. In a home setting, I have not noted any particular difficulty in adding the oil toward the end of the dough making process although it has occurred to me that with my simple and basic KitchenAid mixer with a C-hook perhaps the incorporation of the oil into a dough that is fairly solid and not batter-like might be less than optimal. So, the most recent experiment tested the idea of incorporating the oil earlier in the process. In my case, I added the oil to the dough while it was in a batter-like state, while I was using the whisk attachment, so that the incorporation would be more uniform.

The photo below shows the finished pizza. I saw nothing at any stage of the dough preparation or of the dough management or the finished pizza to suggest that it is imperative to add the oil toward the end of the dough making process. Maybe that is still sound advice if one is using a commercial mixer to make a large dough batch, but it does not seem to be mandatory in a home setting using a standard KitchenAid mixer. I might add as a footnote that the dough was used after 15 days of cold fermentation. Certainly, it does not appear that the early addition of the oil curtailed the useful life of the dough. In fact, I concluded while handling the dough that it perhaps could have lasted another few days and perhaps even longer. I’m sure that I will experiment from time to time with the oil to confirm my findings to date.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: petesopizza on February 17, 2007, 01:40:06 PM
Is there a chart that has temps for example if the flour is 62 degrees the water should be ?? degrees to achieve 80-85 degrees dough

I think this would be helpful to all us math challenged folks
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: itsinthesauce on February 17, 2007, 02:01:31 PM
Pete, I've never added the oil later in the process, unless I forgat to add it initially and I think it's better added initially, but it's a matter of taste, I guess.

Pie looks great, as usual!
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on February 17, 2007, 02:12:57 PM
Is there a chart that has temps for example if the flour is 62 degrees the water should be ?? degrees to achieve 80-85 degrees dough

I think this would be helpful to all us math challenged folks

petesopizza,

The only place I have seen that offers a chart is on page 6 of this General Mills document: http://www.gmflour.com/gmflour/PDFs/Website%20A49104%20Just%20Crust%20Brochure.pdf. (http://www.gmflour.com/gmflour/PDFs/Website%20A49104%20Just%20Crust%20Brochure.pdf.) You will note that the chart makes certain assumptions, like friction factor and finished dough temperature. Some time ago, I read something by Tom Lehmann that said that the yeast companies had charts like you are looking for, and that they were often made available to attendees at trade shows. I tried calling a couple of the yeast companies and the people I spoke with had no idea what I was talking about.

Peter
EDIT: I found the Lehmann article, at http://www.pmq.com/mag/2003spring/tom_lehmann.shtml. (http://www.pmq.com/mag/2003spring/tom_lehmann.shtml.) See the last few paragraphs; for an updated lnk to the General Mills document, see http://www.professionalbakingsolutions.com/water-temperature-chart (http://www.professionalbakingsolutions.com/water-temperature-chart)

EDIT 2 (3/22/13): For the Wayback Link to the article referenced in the first EDIT, see http://web.archive.org/web/20090728230927/http://www.pmq.com/mag/2003spring/tom_lehmann.shtml (http://web.archive.org/web/20090728230927/http://www.pmq.com/mag/2003spring/tom_lehmann.shtml)
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: November on February 17, 2007, 02:28:10 PM
Some time ago, I read something by Tom Lehmann that said that the yeast companies had charts like you are looking for

I find that it's more exciting to perform the calculations manually.  :)

- red.november
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: petesopizza on February 17, 2007, 04:15:20 PM
240 – (st +ft + bf) = H2O temp

Shop Temp   = st
Flour Temp   = ft
Bowl Friction = bf

Note: I tried mixing dough with a food processor using the plastic blade last night and the finish temp was over 140. I threw it away im thinking FP might not be the way to go .... 
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on February 17, 2007, 04:42:56 PM
petesopizza,

If you check out the Lehmann “Roadmap” at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1453.msg13193/topicseen.html#msg13193, you will see several posts that describe the use of a food processor to make a Lehmann NY style pizza dough. A food processor has a very high friction factor, so it is important to keep the dough as cold as possible, as by using cold water and the pulse feature. You may also find this post of interest: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2189.msg19291/topicseen.html#msg19291 (Reply 1).

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: petesopizza on February 19, 2007, 06:39:50 PM
Made what is so far the best NY style yet. The only problem was the rim of the crust was slightly "bready" tasting due to the regular bread flour I had to use.

Recipe:

Gold Medal Harvest King Flour- 2.75 Cups
H2O - 1.25 Cups
Kosher Salt 1 heaping Tsp
ADY 1/4 Tsp

Dissolved salt in water then added flour.
Added the yeast in for the last two minutes of kneading using my food processor pulse and hand kneading.

Finish Dough Temp - 86.2

Left it on the counter for about 10 minutes punched it down and coated it with olive oil and threw it in the fridge for 2 days.

I took pics with my cell phone but this is the only one that came out semi decent. It was a beautiful pizza but you couldnt tell with the pics.. :)



Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: petesopizza on February 19, 2007, 06:42:21 PM
 oh yeah cooked it at 500 for about 15 minutes
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on February 19, 2007, 09:41:50 PM
petesopizza,

I know from a couple of your earlier posts on another thread that you are an advocate of adding the yeast (ADY) at the end of the dough making process rather than at the beginning, which is the method specified by Tom Lehmann. I used your idea (which member giotto also uses) as part of a series of experiments using a new KitchenAid dough making method. As part of the experiments, I tried using the yeast (in my case it was IDY) at the beginning and also at the end. I used the basic Lehmann NY style dough recipe for both experiments. Since your posts inspired me to conduct the two yeast experiments, I thought you might be interested in the results, which are detailed and shown here: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg33253.html#msg33253.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: abc on March 10, 2007, 11:35:07 AM

Lehmann's recipe technique of refrigeration for dough development through retardation is for both dough maturation for flavor as well as convenience in a commercial operation, is it not.

the dough balls are shaped and presumably on a large tray with some spacing between each other, but are not expected to grow into one another and become one big glob because the yeast activity is so hampered by the low temps.

I know this has been touched on before not just on this thread but probably bits and pieces on others...
the Lehmann recipe is rather a modern one?


How did old time NY pizza operators do their dough.
1. i presume NO cold temp retardation... so they used even LESS yeast than what the Lehmann technique calls for?, or they make dough every night before the business day's use.  Did they actually lack dough flavor?  I know a 2 day Lehmann has less developed flavor than 3-4 day in my own experience.

Even current day mom/pop NYC neighborhood corner shops typically keep 1 dough ball in 1 metal stackable bowl... (i should ask), they don't look like they retard their dough via low temps...  so assuming they are kept 'room temp' overnight or however long or short timewise for dough flavor development... i've never seen the dough rising out of the bowl stacks due to rampant yeast activity or even sticking to the metal tops of each stacked bowl...

and i'd have to say their doughs have good dough flavor.



Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on March 10, 2007, 01:42:28 PM
abc,

The Lehmann dough formulation has always been a commercial recipe intended to rely on cold fermentation. The recipe first appeared in the PMQ Recipe Bank in January of 2002, but I am sure it is quite a bit older than that. Since Evelyne Slomon worked with Tom Lehmann on the recipe or certain aspects of it, she may remember when it first came into being.

In a post a while back, Evelyne discussed how pizza dough was made before refrigeration, as indicated in this excerpt:

Before refrigeration, the dough was made early in the day and used later in the day just as with traditional Neapolitan pizza. Refrigeration allowed the pizza maker to better control fermentation. Long, slow and cold fermentation influenced New York pizza makers at least 50-60 years ago. Although Totonno continued to make his dough as it was always made---with a long slow room temperature rise on the same day. Lombardi went on to embrace the refrigerated long slow fermentation method. (from http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3873.msg32476.html#msg32476, Reply 8).

It is possible to make a same-day room-temperature fermented dough, or possibly an overnight dough, and achieve good crust flavor. This should be achievable with the Lehmann dough recipe as well. As you might expect, you would have to have the right amount of yeast and temperatures (mainly the finished dough temperature and the room temperature) such that the dough is ready when you need it. The amount of yeast might have to be adjusted from time to time to compensate for room temperature changes (e.g, summer vs. winter), but that shouldn’t be a problem. Whether the amount will be more or less than a typical Lehmann dough will depend on the the intended usable lifespan of the dough and the temperatures involved.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: SLICEofSLOMON on March 12, 2007, 04:04:18 PM
Hi All,

Before 1992 Tom Lehmann did not have any idea of how to go about formulating an authentic New York Style pizza. Back in the late 1980's, he had been paid to reverse engineer MY pizza at Pizzico Restaurant where I was producing what we now call artisan pizza. Tom had no idea how I got the results I got. He tried looking at our garbage and ordering pizza after pizza to be dissected and analyzed--and he still couldn't figure it out.

Tom and I knew each other from Pizza Today, we were both writers and seminar presenters. I had even attended his dough seminars at the show. What did I learn at those seminars? That we were on opposite ends of the pizzamaking spectrum. His seminars were all about how to handle additives, extenders and conditioners, and how to use sheeters for pizza "production". My seminars were on how to make pizza the traditional way, using nothing more than flour, water, yeast and salt. I preached the gospel of long slow fermentation and of hand forming and hand stretching. I was the first to write about wood-burning ovens and how they were the pizza makers ultimate tool in the mid 1980's and received a lot of flak from many different factions of the commercial pizza industry about how those ovens were merely a "fad" and how they could NEVER be used for high volume because they couldn't bake pizza fast enough!!  :-D They simply would not believe that a pizza could be cooked in two minutes--or less in a proper wood-burning oven.

While I always had my audience, most of the industry thought I was nuts--for them, pizza was all about ease of manufacture (make it simple enough for monkies to make)ease of production--again people were deemed a liability, so rounding and sheeting dough was left to machines. Ingredients were after-thoughts--cheaper being better. For the life of me, getting operators to think about fermenting their dough as little as over-night was an impossible task. Never mind that all they had to do was start their process one day sooner, or that their dough would gain in flavor, texture and color, or, that it would be so much easier to stretch out. Even the the fact that excessive cost of all those conditioners and additives they were using, could be eliminated. Imagine, better tasting, better looking, easier to work with and CHEAPER to produce--yet pizza makers were not ready to embrace the use of "time" or better ingredients.

For the most part, pizza makers didn't have a clue about food cost or how to really calculate it. They thought--more expensive flour? High quality tomatoes and cheese? Forget it.
Crustwise, better quality flour was only a penny or two more, and even that cost was negligiable since the better flour had superior absorbtive qualities which provided them with a larger yield. There seemed to be no way to part them from their additives, conditioners and extenders, they were really brain-washed that they absolutely needed all of those products to produce pizza. Because they knew nothing of food cost, they didn't realize how much more the "crutches" actually cost them. Yet, even when presented with the facts, about how they weren't saving money they had absolutely no faith in placing production into human hands. The pizza industry, more specifically the ingredient and equipment manufacturers had convinced them that their products would save them on cost and labor--and would produce consistency. While I'll give them the consistency edge, albeit in a purely manufactured product sense, they were not saving money in any other sense and--they were producing crap. Pizza makers had been sold a bill of goods by the pizza industry and they simply did not want to fix something that was not in their view--broken.

I could go on and on, but I am merely trying to preface where my philosophy and methods were in comparison to Tom's. Tom stood for everything commercial in pizza and I stood for everything that was artisan and traditional. In 1992, when he asked me to teach my NY style at AIB, it was the first olive branch between the two segments. He was genuinely fascinated with my results and wanted to learn how I did it--and I wanted to reach a greater audience for my gospel of traditional pizza.

When Tom and I finally did get together at AIB, it was an epiphany for both of us: I learned about the scientific aspect of pizza and he learned about the old methods that were all but extinct in the commercial pizza world. My Totonno-Lombardi mentors had taught me to use flour that had a protein content far below the New York Style standard (12 to 12 1/2 percent)
Because AIB feared that my forumula would be too out there, we did include oil, a lot more yeast than I used and optional sugar. However, the original recipe I showed him how to do had a much higher moisture content than he was used to working with--60%. At the time, pizza doughs rarely went above 50 or 55 percent because they were routinely put through rounders and sheeters which don't work well with wet doughs.

It took quite a few years for Tom to actually embrace my formula because it was so different from his thing and the human factor was also a hinderance. But since Tom and I remained friends, and have taught together and given so many seminars together over the years, he has really come to understand the type of thing I do. During our last conversation, he went so far as to say that I'd succeeded in tipping the scales at AIB because his protege Jeff Zeak was a confirmed disciple of my philosophy and methodology as opposed to his! Jeff worked hand in hand with me at AIB for the last 15 years as my assistant and we've spent a lot of time talking and making pizza together. I always knew that Jeff was really into the whole artisan thing, but I didn't know how much so--Jeff will be taking over Tom's position at AIB when he retires. Tom's shoes are going to be some pretty big ones to fill, but I think that Jeff, who's had the best of both pizza worlds teach him, will turn out to be an excellent director.

Why tell you all that story?

Because the world of pizza was quite different than it is now. No one was looking to the old masters about how to make pizza. Using quality ingredients was just catching on, but using fermentation without crutches was pretty scarry for pizza makers then. Even now, with artisan pizza makers in the headlines, most of the industry doesn't really understand how to make this type of pizza.

Now, to answer your questions regarding same day fermentation:

Totonno's was the only place using the original sameday process that Lombardi used pre-refrigeration that does not employ the use of sugar. For one thing, the original Totonno's was only opened for dinner 3 nights a week--Friday, Saturday and Sunday. Jerry would make the dough early in the morning and leave it out at room temperature. He wasn't very scientific about it--amount of yeast and water temperature would fluctuate according to ambient temperature and season. He never measured; it was all done by feel. The last time I went to Totonno's in NYC and had pizza at lunch time, the dough hadn't risen enough yet.

Lombardi's dough (when it used to be made properly) was made with a different higher gluten flour and underwent refrigerated fermentation, the flavor of the crust varied because the dough could be up to 3 days old. The longer fermented doughs tended to have more flavor than "newer" ones. Totonno's crust was light as air and had a sweet wheat flavor--not sugar induced--wheat flavor. The combination of char and wheat flavor was a marriage made in heaven.

Alas, most NYC pizza makers started using lots of yeast, sugar and oil to push their dough so it could be used the same day--ready for lunch, so really only 3-4 hours. A whole faction of the pizza industry grew around controlling the dough. Additives and conditioners could cut production time to about 3-4 hours, without refrigeration. Pizza makers who used rounders and sheeters did not want a "live" fermented doughs because they did not want any open-holed cell structure to interfere with the sheeting process so these quick doughs fit the bill.

Because space is at such a premium in NYC. few pizza joints could afford proper coolers for over-night doughs, and they weren't about to pay labor to come in at 5 am to make dough, so they mastered the production of fast same day doughs. The best of these doughs have a good slightly sweet flavor. The crumb in soft and dense and the crust can be nicely crisp when properly baked. However, they lack the flavor and lightness of long fermented doughs that rely on the flour for flavor.

My recommendations for same day dough?

The same day dough that was posted at PMQ by Tom was the NYC dough that I developed and demonstrated at the Orlando Pizza Show. It is for a commercial batch that is ready to go in around 2 hours. He was making up this dough for my seminar:

100% Caputo 00 blue pizza flour
60% 70 degree water
1% IDY
2% Sea Salt (I always use sea salt--however you should note that sea salt is twice as salty as the same amount of regular salt)
5% olive oil
(He added the sugar as an option)

Place the water in the mixer, pour in the flour, yeast and salt.
Mix on low only until the raw flour dissappears
Then pour in the olive oil--down the sides of the bowl
Mix until the oil is incorporated.

Turn the mixer to second speed and mix one to three minutes more until the dough is silky. The dough should be about 80 degrees coming off the mixer.

Scale the dough and place in dough containers (individual or trays)

Refrigerate (under the dough preptable retarder) for about 1 hour (or allow to remain at room temperature 2 hours and use)
Bring out to room temperature 1 hour before use.

Results are light, crunchy, crispy and very flavorful--but not complex like traditional long fermented dough. But--waaay better than most NYC style pizza pushed with sugar and conditioners.

For a more artisan approach to same day dough.
Make a sponge using 50-50 water and flour with 3% IDY (for a dough that will be used in 3-4 hours--or up to 8 if refrigerated (not suitable for over-night)
You can figure the sponge at 15-25% of the flour weight or as a stand alone at 10-15% of the entire dough weight.

For example: For 20% starter: 10 pounds flour= 100% of the formula, the starter will be 32 ounces (20%), water at equal parts=32 ounces of flour and IDY at 3% (of the 32ounces)=.48 ounces
Mix together and allow to sit at room temperature 1 hour (72-77 degree room temperature)

This could be added to the above NYC formulation--with or without the olive oil
(Note the amount of flour and water--but not the yeast should be subtracted from the total) or, to make matters more confusing--you could simply make up the sponge using the same formulation given and add that to the entire recipe as given. The starter would be on top of the recipe. For example if the dough recipe equals 15 pounds of finished dough, if the starter is figured separately, the finished dough recipe would be about 17 pounds.

The starter will add flavor and texture to the dough and will make a real difference in the finished pizza--even if everything  was made in just a few hours.

Obviously, the longer the starter and fermentation process is drawn out, the better the results, but we are talking about getting the best results out of same day doughs here.

There are other ways to "push" the rapid fermentation of dough that do not involve crutches...and that will actually produce something that tastes really, really good.

Hope this isn't too confusing :chef:



Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on March 12, 2007, 06:06:09 PM
Evelyne,

Fortunately, since the beginning of this thread, the Lehmann dough formulation has remained pretty basic, with only flour, water, yeast, salt, and oil (minimal). (Sugar is optional.)

I'm somewhat surprised that you were able to get Tom to consider working with the Caputo 00 flour. In the past, if his posts at the PMQ TT are any indication, he would recommend flours other than 00 when asked about using 00 flour. Did you influence him on this point or did he come to it on his own?

In the Caputo dough formulation you set forth in your last post you didn't indicate how much dough one might use to make a particular size pizza. Having worked quite a bit with 00 doughs, I have found that the texture and finished characteristics of the crust can vary quite considerably depending on the amount of dough in relation to a particular pizza size. Can you give us an idea of how much dough to use to make, say, a 12" pizza?

I noticed your reference to the difference between sea salt and regular salt. I have weighed equal quantities of different sea salts and table salt and found their weights to differ but not by all that much. Can you clarify what you meant by your parenthetical comment on the two salts, and also indicate what brand of sea salt you recommend?

Thanks.

Peter
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: November on March 12, 2007, 06:42:05 PM
(I always use sea salt--however you should note that sea salt is twice as salty as the same amount of regular salt)

Unlike salt grinding, this is a legitimate property of sea salt.  Salts other than sodium chloride, such as calcium chloride, change the ionic strength of the sea salt as a whole.  However, my admittedly hasty readings indicate that the sea salt I use (Alessi Mediterranean Fine Sea Salt) is only about 1.5 times saltier than pure sodium chloride.

- red.november
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: SLICEofSLOMON on March 12, 2007, 07:49:04 PM
Hi Pete,

The 00 flour was my choice. Tom had the mixer and the dough prep set up during the show, so I gave him the formula to make my pizza for my seminar. PMQ had me judging the pizza contest right up until it was time to give my seminar, so I didn't have time to prep the dough myself.

Admittedly, I too, am not a big fan of 00, but it does work rather well for a real quick rise using a direct mix. The dough ball should be 7 ounces, but you can go to 8 if you like the crust a bit thicker--that is for a 12 inch pie.

Regarding sea salt, I get mine in bulk from Giusto's because that's all we use at the restaurant. At home I use La Baleine, fine sea salt from France. Sea salt will always be saltier than regular salt, how much? Depends on the salt, the salt we get from Giusto's is exactly 2x saltier and we had to adjust all of our house recipes accordingly. The Baleine salt is not quite as salty as the Giusto's. I think it is a waste to put say grey sea salt or extra fancy natural flavored salts in dough--on top of the pizza, yes, but not in the dough. If you should decide to go with sea salt, try backing off your regular amount of salt by 20-25% and see how it tastes. You can always increase or decrease. Each time you use a different brand of sea salt, you'll have to go through the same procedure as they do vary from brand to brand.

I've always cooked with sea salt, since that is what we used in France where I first learned how to cook when I was a kid. I think it makes a nice difference in pizza and bread in general. I'm a huge fan of coarse grey salt from the northern coast of France--it is absolutely fantastic on grilled meats and fish--and even on poached vegetables--yum.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: SLICEofSLOMON on March 12, 2007, 08:03:20 PM
oops, I forgot to mention that other 11.5 percent to 12.50 percent flours could be used in this formula as well. I have found that the 00 is better formulated for very quick rises and gives better results.
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: November on March 12, 2007, 08:18:04 PM
the salt we get from Giusto's is exactly 2x saltier

How was that determination made?
Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: SLICEofSLOMON on March 13, 2007, 12:34:34 AM
The salt determination has been made through a nonscientific method--trial and error. When reformulating our recipes using this salt, we found that adjusting all of our salt amounts to 50% of the prior amounts gave us the results we wanted. I'm sure there's a scientific way of checking it out but I don't know how to analyze or where to look for exact amounts of saltiness. Most of the sea salts I've used--that are white and fine fall into the 2X-1 1/2X--why, I don't know. If you can explain to me technically how to determine the amount of saltiness in sea salt, I would be much obliged.  :chef:

Title: Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
Post by: November on March 13, 2007, 03:13:56 AM
Evelyne,

I think that perhaps because of the way you tested the saltiness, you are actually measuring a couple different changes, not just the direct change in salt.  By using sea salt in your dough, you cause several things to take place such as stronger protein bonding [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_bridge_(protein) ] and influencing altered microorganism behavior just as two examples.  These changes have a cascading effect on protein related mouth-feel, which can have an effect on the rate of dissolution in the mouth; the length of time microorganisms can thrive in acetic acid (up to 8x longer with calcium chloride); and microorganism byproduct output, which can affect the interaction between the salt and ion receptors on the tongue.  Even a change in the amount of organic acids produced by the yeast can have a major influence on the perception of saltiness.  In fact, there is a lot of research being performed out there in an effort to provide salt flavor while using less sodium by the inclusion of organic acids (e.g. citric, acetic) in food products.

Another difference between sea salt and pure sodium chloride is the rate of dissolution.  Magnesium sulfate and calcium chloride, for instance, dissolve more rapidly than sodium chloride.  I took this into account when I measured my sea salt.  Once the pizza is baked, there will still be sufficient moisture to keep some of the salt dissolved in the crust, so not a lot of this property will have an effect on perceived saltiness.

With all that said, I think your