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Author Topic: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza  (Read 492440 times)

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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1160 on: May 11, 2017, 08:59:02 PM »
Cool. It looks like you were very happy with both the 8 hour RT dough and the 2 day CF dough. Do you think the 2 day dough was noticeably better than the 8 hour one?

I see you tend to bake these at 500°. My oven goes up to 550 and pizza usually cooks in about 5-6min on a stone at that temp. Is 500 for around 8 or so minutes something you recommend for this style then? Like, on a screen on the lowest rack? Especially because of all that sugar there's no way that dough would survive on a stone I don't think. In fact 1% sugar is the highest I can get away with on a stone or cast iron at 550 anyway. Maybe slide it onto the stone for a minute. I think you mentioned doing that too.

Incidentally, and unrelated - don't you have the Cuisinart 14 cup food processor, the 14BCN or whatever it is? If so that's the one that had the blade recalled, the S blade that has four rivets and apparently can crack and leave shards of metal in food idk. They're replacing the blade and I just got mine after 5+ months. Fyi, though you probably already knew that if you have that model.
csnack,

You are correct that I liked both pizzas. The comparison might have been a bit more difficult because one of the pizzas had only pepperoni and the other had both pepperoni and sautéed and raw mushrooms, a combination that I like a lot. But, generally speaking, I think that a dough that ferments at room temperature provides more crust flavor. However, room temperature fermented doughs can be trickier, especially here in Texas where room temperature can traverse a fairly wide range during a hot Texas summer day. And if you make pizzas when the days are cooler, you have to make adjustments in the amount of yeast and/or the water temperature. At least these days we have Craig's yeast table to use.

I should also note that, based on member feedback, the PJ clone recipe as given at Reply 20 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg59217#msg59217 seems to be the most popular of my PJ clones. That is perhaps due in part to the use of cold fermentation, which is easier to control and manage than a dough fermented at room temperature.

As for the use of a pizza stone, we have had members bake PJ clone pizzas on pizza stones. And they have done so successfully. But you are correct about the risk that high levels of sugar can impart to the final pizza. I usually advise members who decide to use a pizza stone to monitor the bottom crust development carefully so that the bottom crust doesn't brown prematurely or excessively, and to pull the pizza once the bottom is done to the desired degree of browning and to move it to a higher oven rack position to let the top of the pizza finish baking so that the top and bottom of the pizza are both done at about the same time.

In my experiments, I did not use a pizza stone because I was trying to make my pizza as closely as possible to the way that a PJ store would make pizzas. Of course, my standard electric home oven cannot be made to work like a conveyor oven but at least I used a screen, mainly because of the high sugar content of the PJ clone doughs. I would usually start with the screen at the lowest oven rack position and move it higher in the oven once the bottom crust was of the desired degree of browning. If I had a convection feature, maybe that would have helped. But, generally speaking, I found that a bake temperature of around 500 degrees F and a bake time of around 7-8 minutes worked well in my particular type and model of electric oven (a geriatric Whirlpool builders-grade oven), although I most likely tweaked the bake time from time to time based on the number and amounts of toppings used. The reality is that to become a good pizza maker, you have to learn how to master the particular oven used and to adapt what you do based on the different makeups of the pizzas that you bake. You in effect become a home pizzaiolo (or pizzaiola) moving things around the oven ;D. Fortunately, my oven has a glass window in the oven door to allow me to see what is going on in the oven without having to periodically open the oven door to inspect the progress of my pizzas.

You are correct that I have a Cuisinart 14-cup food processor. It is called Classic 14 Food Processor and is somewhere around thirty years old. It has held up remarkably well over that entire period, and is one of my favorite kitchen appliances, maybe my overall favorite one. However, several years ago the metal blade broke and had to be replaced. I did a Google search and found a company called Goodman's that sold (and still sells) replacement parts for food processors.

Peter

Offline csnack

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1161 on: May 12, 2017, 04:46:02 AM »

The reality is that to become a good pizza maker, you have to learn how to master the particular oven used and to adapt what you do based on the different makeups of the pizzas that you bake. You in effect become a home pizzaiolo (or pizzaiola) moving things around the oven ;D.

Peter

Yeah I think that's something that a lot of people who haven't been at this for too long overlook; moving the pie around in the oven to get the best possible bake. The simple thing to do is drop the pie onto the baking surface, and maybe turn it halfway through. So far that's all I've done. But it could be that the best result would come from starting the pie out on the stone or what have you and then moving it to an upper rack straight on the rack like you do. Most everyone here probably does this kind of thing, but I've overlooked it until reading some of your PJ posts lately. Like I've not been able to get my pepperoni to cup and char even when using the broiler, which I can't do for long for sake of the crust, but I see that you like to move your pizza to an upper rack sans broiler and just use ceiling heat. That's a good idea and that just might be where the char is at in my setup. Like how the PJ clones have so much sugar, that could help the bottom to brown quickly while leaving the top still needing some more bake, and so maybe the top could then withstand some direct top heat w/o overcooking the crust. I don't know why this hadn't occurred to me.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1162 on: May 12, 2017, 08:46:07 AM »
csnack,

If you think about it, moving a pizza from a lower position in the oven to a higher position in the oven is much like what pizza operators do when they lift a pizza baked in say, a wood fired oven, from the baking surface to the dome of the oven for a few seconds to get more top heat. I have even simulated that doming method in my home oven by placing my metal peel under the pizza and lifting the pizza to about an inch away from the top electric element (the broiler). Of course, for this to work, the top heating element has to be on, either because it has been turned on to broil or it has kicked in by itself when the oven door was opened. But even if the heating element is off momentarily, it still has a lot of residual heat and there is still a lot of top heat that high up in the oven.

BTW, you can also start a pizza at the top of the oven and move it lower in the oven--to get better bottom crust browning--when the top of the pizza has been properly baked.

Some time ago, I created a post describing some of the different ways I use my oven. The post is Reply 45 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=2223.msg20965#msg20965.

There are also some useful tips about using a standard home oven in the thread at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=37996.msg380222#msg380222

Peter

Offline csnack

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1163 on: May 16, 2017, 03:51:07 AM »
Here goes my stab at the PJ clones anyway. I did a side by side comparison of the 8 hour RT dough (sans punch down) and a 48 hour CF dough that sat at RT for 1.5 hours afterwards, and timed these so that I was able to have them at the same time for dinner. I used the food processor like I always do.

48-hour CF Goat Cheese:

12.54 oz KABF
56.5% Water (7.08 oz)
0.50% IDY (0.063 oz)
3% Salt (0.380 oz)
7.3% EVOO (0.920 oz)
4.8% Sugar (0.602 oz)
FDT = 78°
_____

8 hour RT Pepperoni

12.54 oz KABF
58% Water (7.27 oz)
0.20% IDY (0.025 oz)
3% Salt (0.380 oz)
7.3% EVOO (0.920 oz)
4.8% Sugar (0.602 oz)
FDT = 80°
_________

I couldn't resist adding my usual 3% salt, and I wanted to see just how sweet the crust got with 4.8% sugar rather than the 4.2%. I gave each dough a bit more yeast to compensate for the salt just in case the salt was gonna have any impact on the rise. These tasted a lot like what I remember about PJ's, but they were just good in their own right too. The crust was definitely sweeter than my usual doughs and I liked it and when I make these again I'll probably use the same amount of sugar. I have to say though that the 8 hour RT dough tasted a bit better than the 2 day CF dough, just a bit better. That's cool especially since you can have it the same day. Both baked on a screen on the lowest rack @ 500 for 10min then one more minute once transferred to the top rack directly on the rack. I have a 16" Super Peel so I leisurely built the pizzas on the counter then transferred to the screen with the SP so no worries about the dough sinking/sticking to the screen.
Pete, that's funny that your PJ clones are being used in commercial business by members here in other countries. I don't blame them. These totally tasted like a quality commercial delivery pizza. I wish you were in Seattle; there's this place here called Pagliacci's who I'd love to be able to clone. Actually, they're the reason I started making pizza and are still my benchmark. They're among the best Seattle has to offer. There's a lot of artisan pizza here, but that's not really my thing at this time. I like the upper tier delivery joints, and here that's Pagliacci's and Romeo's, both small NW chains.
-Christian
« Last Edit: May 16, 2017, 04:04:19 AM by csnack »

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1164 on: May 16, 2017, 12:30:46 PM »
Christian,

I'm glad the two PJ clone recipes you used worked out well for you. Those versions are easier for home pizza makers to use since it is hard to cold ferment doughs for 5-8 days in standard home refrigerators, especially ones where the doors are opened and closed a lot during the course of the day.

I also agree that the PJ clone doughs with short fermentation windows make for good commercial pizzas, although I do not know of anyone who is doing something like that in the U.S. But to know for sure, I would have to have nutrition information, and maybe an ingredients statement.

Peter

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Offline MadMatt

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1165 on: May 16, 2017, 10:37:31 PM »
Amazing looking PJ's clone csnack



I've had much more success since using a baking steel instead of a screen, I'll post some pictures some time (If I can stop eating it before taking a picture)


I think if my oven had a bottom element I could have managed this without one as it was always the base that never properly cooked. 


Offline csnack

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1166 on: May 16, 2017, 10:57:20 PM »
Your oven has no bottom element? What does it have, just something on the top? I didn't know they made those.

Offline csnack

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1167 on: May 16, 2017, 11:51:45 PM »
Pete, I read you saying something like some members here have made better versions of the PJ pizza. Is that the one by Randy that you converted to baker's percents at this link that you were referring to? https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=1707.0

Offline MadMatt

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1168 on: May 17, 2017, 03:07:31 AM »
Your oven has no bottom element? What does it have, just something on the top? I didn't know they made those.

It's at the back of the oven surrounding the fan.


Offline werty20

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1169 on: May 17, 2017, 09:04:38 AM »
can i use malt and increase water to 61% for same day dough ?
also what is TF for 11-12 " pizza
« Last Edit: May 17, 2017, 09:06:31 AM by werty20 »

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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1170 on: May 17, 2017, 09:12:20 AM »
Pete, I read you saying something like some members here have made better versions of the PJ pizza. Is that the one by Randy that you converted to baker's percents at this link that you were referring to? https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=1707.0
Christian,

I think what you may have in mind is my citing updated versions of the PJ clone dough at Reply 20 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg59217#msg59217.

If you look at the bottom of the post at Reply 20, you will see links to updated versions. The updated versions came about after I got what appeared to be better data as to the real PJ dough. I don't think that the updated clones will be materially different than the earlier versions because there is a fair amount of latitude in recipes in terms of ingredients quantities. I was just trying to get as close to a real PJ dough as possible, even for variations of the basic dough that PJ uses in its business.

The thread that you cited to Randy's PJ clone helped me a lot by the time that I got around to trying to reverse engineer and clone the PJ dough because it gave me a chance to try different things yet stay within the realm or zone of a PJ clone. Randy's PJ clones had a thinner crust than my PJ clones (and real PJ pizzas), to the point where I considered his PJ clones to be a cross, or a hybrid, of the PJ style and the NY style. I found that to be a unique combination and one that I thought at the time would make a good chain pizza. I still feel that way today.

Peter

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1171 on: May 17, 2017, 09:38:08 AM »
can i use malt and increase water to 61% for same day dough ?
also what is TF for 11-12 " pizza
werty20,

I realize that you are outside of the U.S. where you may not have the same choices of flours that we have in the U.S. but unless your flour is unmalted, I don't see any reason to use malt, especially since the PJ clone doughs contain so much sugar that can provide adequate food for the yeast and also contribute to crust coloration. Also, if you go to a hydration of 61%, that degree of hydration, taken along with the wetting effects of the oil, may result in a dough that is overly on the wet side. The extent of the wetness will depend on the rated hydration value of the flour. You might want to take a look of some of my PJ clone dough formulations that are intended to be used to make same day doughs. You can also use Craig's yeast table at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26831.msg355933#msg355933 (click to enlarge) to tweak the amount of yeast to use for the particular duration of fermentation that you would like to use.

As for a thickness factor, I would go with 0.13. That is about the average of what PJ uses for its pizzas, as best I can tell from published data and inputs from former PJ employees.

Peter

Offline werty20

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1172 on: May 17, 2017, 02:24:26 PM »
many thanks , i ask if the flour is malted but they dont know what im talking about
this time much better taste .. i think i will keep 5% honey with everything

Offline MadMatt

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1173 on: May 17, 2017, 09:42:14 PM »
I'm really confused about how much yeast to use for CF

I've always used  0.28% for the 48 hour Papa Johns clone on the 2nd page

But looking at yeast prediction charts and other peoples 48 hour recipes, it seems people are using up to 0.5%!


Fridge temp should be around 3°C/37.4F         

it says you need 0.160% of yeast for 45 hours at around that temp according to the yeast prediction chart



So how are people using 0.50%    O.o


I know salt will effect it, but still using that much?
« Last Edit: May 17, 2017, 10:16:34 PM by MadMatt »

Offline csnack

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1174 on: May 17, 2017, 10:42:51 PM »
The chart is an invaluable reference and starting point, but it's not gospel. Because of all the variables (a major one being final dough temp, salt/sugar content and even time of year) using, say .50 idy might get me different results than you'd get in your specific environment. If .28 idy works for you in your environment then that's fine so long as you're not over fermenting before you're ready to use it, which, as long as your final dough temp wasn't too high, is not likely to happen anyway in the fridge in 48h with that amount of yeast. At least not in my 38° fridge, where next to nothing occurs in that time with that yeast amount in my fridge. Peter will give you a better answer, but personally I use anywhere from .10 to .80 idy for 2 day CF depending on how long I plan to RT after the CF. Because by now I've learned what to expect with the different amounts of yeast I use for CF and RT in my particular environment. Sometimes I'll RT for up to 8 hours after a 2 day CF.  I wouldn't worry too much about the exact amount of yeast someone else is using. As long as you have a good starting point you can experiment with more/less yeast within reason to see how the results differ in your environment, but as it is at .28 idy for 2 day CF you're not doing anything wrong. I used .50 idy for my 48h CF PJ clone up there, and  there was no real noticeable rise in that time in the fridge. My FDT was in the mid 70s.

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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1175 on: May 18, 2017, 02:45:55 PM »
MadMatt,

I would say that Christian (csnack) covered the matter quite nicely. Yeast quantity is only one of the variables that can affect the extent and rate of fermentation of a dough, whether the dough ferments at room temperature or in the refrigerator or cooler. In my own tests that I described in this thread, my practice was not to post dough formulations until I was satisfied with the results. Part of that process was getting the amount of yeast right. However, remember that in my case I was making some of my PJ clone pizzas, including the one described at Reply 20 that you mentioned, in the dead heat of summer in Texas. Under these conditions, my refrigerator will struggle to hold temperatures below about 40 degrees F. To compensate, I might use colder water or less yeast, or maybe a combination of both, and I might reduce the temper time. Lowering the hydration value a bit or using more salt might also work but usually I don't like to alter the baker's percents too much. Also, I try to stay within the range of salt levels of about 1.5-2.25%.

Craig's yeast chart is a good one, and is certainly a good place to start to identify an amount of yeast for your particular circumstances. That chart did not exist when I started this thread but it is the one I would look to were I to make a new version of the PJ clone dough. But even then, some testing and tweaking may be necessary depending on the time of year.

Peter

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1176 on: May 19, 2017, 10:45:03 PM »

Not sure if this was ever posted on this thread.

Ever wonder why Papa John's comes with a pepperoncini in every whole pizza, or where the pepperoncini come from.

https://www.thrillist.com/eat/nation/papa-johns-pizza-peppers-pepperoncini-pepper

Norma

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1177 on: May 20, 2017, 08:24:02 AM »
Not sure if this was ever posted on this thread.

Ever wonder why Papa John's comes with a pepperoncini in every whole pizza, or where the pepperoncini come from.

https://www.thrillist.com/eat/nation/papa-johns-pizza-peppers-pepperoncini-pepper

Norma
Norma,

Thank you for the link.

When I was doing my original research on the Papa John's pizzas, I read somewhere that the PJ pepperoncinis came from Greece. And, on that basis, I ended up using the Mezzetta brand of pepperoncini from Greece. Later, I got confirmation that the PJ pepperoncinis came from Greece in the following article where John Schnatter himself described what went into his pizzas, at:

https://louisville.eater.com/2013/8/19/6385273/papa-john-shared-some-of-his-pizzas-ingredients-on-a-2010-louisville.

However, when I did a new search this morning, I found a Facebook entry at https://www.facebook.com/papajohns.tirupati/photos/pb.471279789570361.-2207520000.1472402014./1236567963041536/?type=3 that says that the PJ pepperocinis are from Greece and Turkey.

Companies like Papa John's have multiple sources for just about all of their ingredients so it is quite likely that PJ gets its pepperoncinis from many countries and sources, maybe even beyond Greece and Turkey.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1178 on: May 20, 2017, 11:45:19 AM »
Norma,

Thank you for the link.

When I was doing my original research on the Papa John's pizzas, I read somewhere that the PJ pepperoncinis came from Greece. And, on that basis, I ended up using the Mezzetta brand of pepperoncini from Greece. Later, I got confirmation that the PJ pepperoncinis came from Greece in the following article where John Schnatter himself described what went into his pizzas, at:

https://louisville.eater.com/2013/8/19/6385273/papa-john-shared-some-of-his-pizzas-ingredients-on-a-2010-louisville.

However, when I did a new search this morning, I found a Facebook entry at https://www.facebook.com/papajohns.tirupati/photos/pb.471279789570361.-2207520000.1472402014./1236567963041536/?type=3 that says that the PJ pepperocinis are from Greece and Turkey.

Companies like Papa John's have multiple sources for just about all of their ingredients so it is quite likely that PJ gets its pepperoncinis from many countries and sources, maybe even beyond Greece and Turkey.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for the links and telling were the PJ pepperocinis are from! 

Frank Giaquinto called me this morning.  He told me that PJ's uses two different sauces.  One for the regular pizzas and one for the pan pizzas.  I didn't know that before. 

Norma

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #1179 on: May 21, 2017, 12:07:12 AM »
Peter,

Thanks for the links and telling were the PJ pepperocinis are from! 

Frank Giaquinto called me this morning.  He told me that PJ's uses two different sauces.  One for the regular pizzas and one for the pan pizzas.  I didn't know that before. 

Norma
How's Frank doing? I enjoyed watching his videos you made. So he works at Papa John's now?

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