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Author Topic: My Road To Napoli  (Read 30760 times)

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Offline texmex

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Re: My Road To Napoli
« Reply #360 on: May 09, 2021, 02:57:40 PM »
Aww, Jack. Sorry to read that you've been having such a difficult time.  I hope you'll be seeing better days ahead, friend. 
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Offline amolapizza

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Re: My Road To Napoli
« Reply #361 on: May 13, 2021, 04:42:39 PM »
Thanks Reesa!

It's funny it seems we have a few things in common, we're both born on April 12:th, we both play bass, and we both speak spanish!  Enhorabuena hermana!
Jack

Effeuno P134H (500C), Biscotto Fornace Saputo, Sunmix Sun6, Caputo Pizzeria, Caputo Saccorosso, Mutti Pelati.

Offline amolapizza

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Re: My Road To Napoli
« Reply #362 on: May 13, 2021, 05:00:08 PM »
So time for a small detour.

For a long time I've wanted to tackle the classical, round, thin crust, Italian pizza.  It's very similar to the Napoletana, just that the dough normally contains fat and it bakes for a longer time.  Two and half to three minutes.  You'll find endless variations of this pizza all through Europe and Italy.  It is somewhere in between of the Napoletana and the Tonda Romana.

I used more or less the same dough that I use for Napoletana, just that I added about 3% (50g/l) EVO in the hope that the crust wouldn't dry out too much.

An angel must have smiled on me, as the first attempt turned out really tasty.

611g Caputo pizzeria (100%)
354g Water (58%)
18g Salt (2.9% - 50g/l)
18g EVO (2.9% - 50 g/l)
1.40g fresh CY (0.229%)

225g balls, one hour bulk and eight in balls at 21.5C.

Baked for two and a half minutes in my P134H with biscotto, 450C below and 350C above.
Jack

Effeuno P134H (500C), Biscotto Fornace Saputo, Sunmix Sun6, Caputo Pizzeria, Caputo Saccorosso, Mutti Pelati.

Offline amolapizza

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Re: My Road To Napoli
« Reply #363 on: May 15, 2021, 04:58:28 PM »
Made some more Classica.

611g Caputo pizzeria (100%)
354g Water (58%)
18g Salt (2.9% - 50g/l)
18g EVO (2.9% - 50 g/l)
1.31g fresh CY (0.214%)

Mixed 5 minutes on the lowest speed in my spiral mixer, the oil added at minute 3.  1 hour of bulk and 9 in balls at around 20C.  Doughballs were 225g.  Baked for 2.5 minutes in my p134h with biscotto, the upper thermostat set to 350 and the lower to 425C.

The first one is the original capricciosa, it comes from a pizzeria called La Capricciosa in Rome.

I'm really happy that this works out so well.  It's a really tasty alternative to Napoletana or Tonda Romana.  It's also a lot less stress when baking, as the temperature is lower there is a lot more margin.
Jack

Effeuno P134H (500C), Biscotto Fornace Saputo, Sunmix Sun6, Caputo Pizzeria, Caputo Saccorosso, Mutti Pelati.

Offline typicalsam

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Re: My Road To Napoli
« Reply #364 on: May 17, 2021, 05:10:44 PM »
Looks great. Interesting as I've also explored a slightly longer bake - after doing 70% hr 90secs I realised I wasn't so excited by an even softer pizza and that I actually like a tiny bit of crunch in my pizzas. Something almost like eggshell crust, or vito iacopelli's beloved "soft and cranchy"  :drool:

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Offline texmex

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Re: My Road To Napoli
« Reply #365 on: May 19, 2021, 01:28:26 PM »
Thanks Reesa!

It's funny it seems we have a few things in common, we're both born on April 12:th, we both play bass, and we both speak spanish!  Enhorabuena hermana!


FELICIDADES compa! Mine is on the 11th. I went for a cheapo bass, but sure liked checking out those G&L. I think I will keep him.  ;D 
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Offline amolapizza

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Re: My Road To Napoli
« Reply #366 on: May 24, 2021, 05:54:22 PM »
Oh crap I got the birthdates wrong.. :)

Nice looking bass!

Is it a short scale?
Jack

Effeuno P134H (500C), Biscotto Fornace Saputo, Sunmix Sun6, Caputo Pizzeria, Caputo Saccorosso, Mutti Pelati.

Offline texmex

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Re: My Road To Napoli
« Reply #367 on: May 24, 2021, 08:08:15 PM »
Yes, Jack! It's short scale. I love it...very different from my Aria Pro II ... It really thumps.
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/G2220TGR--gretsch-g2220-junior-jet-bass-ii-torino-green

I still want to get a semi-hollow body short scale....Maybe next year.


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Offline amolapizza

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Re: My Road To Napoli
« Reply #368 on: May 30, 2021, 05:50:24 PM »
I like to play a short scale, 2 inches seems like nothing, but it does make a vast difference to playing!
Jack

Effeuno P134H (500C), Biscotto Fornace Saputo, Sunmix Sun6, Caputo Pizzeria, Caputo Saccorosso, Mutti Pelati.

Offline amolapizza

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Re: My Road To Napoli
« Reply #369 on: June 08, 2021, 06:26:02 AM »
I was going to make classical Italian.  I decided to try a 24 hour RT ferment, so I plugged the parameters into the dough calculator I use.  When I checked on the dough after 16 hours it was already over the target point.. :)

Caputo pizzeria 611g (100%)
Water 354g (58%)
Salt 18g (2.9%)
EVO 18g (2.9%)
Fresh CY 0.38g (0.062%)

What to do?  I made panuozzi.

I stretched the balls into a longish shape and then patted them into a uniform thickness.  I smeared some EVO on top, and then into my oven at 400C for about 2 minutes.  It's really fun to watch how they puff up just like a pita.

Here's the result.  They are very nice to cut open as a book, top with cheese and cold cuts, then warm in the oven until the cheese melts.  For the healthy among us, some salad/greens, tomato, and or other fresh cut vegetables are also admissible.
Jack

Effeuno P134H (500C), Biscotto Fornace Saputo, Sunmix Sun6, Caputo Pizzeria, Caputo Saccorosso, Mutti Pelati.

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Offline Arne_Jervell

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Re: My Road To Napoli
« Reply #370 on: June 08, 2021, 07:13:31 AM »
Mmmm sounds delicious, Jack. Btw, I love the creativity and not letting good dough go to waste!  :chef:

Offline typicalsam

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Re: My Road To Napoli
« Reply #371 on: June 08, 2021, 03:56:29 PM »
I love a panuozzo - typically use half a dough ball so around 125g and then the resulting loaf I cut in half. So all in all, a very small amount of bread that holds a lot of filling witi a great flavour and satisfying chew (I freeze then reheat in the microwave 😂)

Offline amolapizza

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Re: My Road To Napoli
« Reply #372 on: June 08, 2021, 05:22:13 PM »
I normally make them from my dough balls, so mostly around 220-225g.

Still I only eat half a one!

I also freeze them, and get one out of the fridge when I get back home in the morning, a few hours later it makes for a great snack.
Jack

Effeuno P134H (500C), Biscotto Fornace Saputo, Sunmix Sun6, Caputo Pizzeria, Caputo Saccorosso, Mutti Pelati.

Offline Heikjo

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Re: My Road To Napoli
« Reply #373 on: July 02, 2021, 03:46:23 PM »
Long time no see! I’ve read many interesting posts now of your experiments with oven management. I got some work to do on the bottom charring. I don’t know at this point if it’s mostly oven management or if my thin skins are also responsible. Yours looks very good now. One thing I mean to try is launch a bit earlier than now. I currently let the clock run 1 1/2 minute after the upper element turns on and I turn the upper thermostat from 375 to 450, then start dressing. By the time of launch I’m probably 2 1/2-3 minutes after the element turned on, which gives it a lot of time to heat up the stone.

Are you leaving the pies in the oven the entire bake time now? I did some experiment with that, but wasn’t happy with the bake. The innermost side always got more heat than the one closest to the door. I also started looking at where on the stone the pies should lie and when I do a single quick pull out of the peel, it was challenging to hit the perfect spot.

If you bake like that now, how have they changed compared to when you turned them?
Heine
Oven: Effeuno P134H

Offline Wario

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Re: My Road To Napoli
« Reply #374 on: July 03, 2021, 08:19:51 AM »
Looking great! I like the classical Italian pizza too, frankly i never had anything else in Italy since i never been to Naples. Do they always add oil to the dough for this type of pizza or does it work without it too?

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Offline amolapizza

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Re: My Road To Napoli
« Reply #375 on: July 03, 2021, 11:58:01 AM »
Long time no see! I’ve read many interesting posts now of your experiments with oven management. I got some work to do on the bottom charring. I don’t know at this point if it’s mostly oven management or if my thin skins are also responsible. Yours looks very good now. One thing I mean to try is launch a bit earlier than now. I currently let the clock run 1 1/2 minute after the upper element turns on and I turn the upper thermostat from 375 to 450, then start dressing. By the time of launch I’m probably 2 1/2-3 minutes after the element turned on, which gives it a lot of time to heat up the stone.

Are you leaving the pies in the oven the entire bake time now? I did some experiment with that, but wasn’t happy with the bake. The innermost side always got more heat than the one closest to the door. I also started looking at where on the stone the pies should lie and when I do a single quick pull out of the peel, it was challenging to hit the perfect spot.

If you bake like that now, how have they changed compared to when you turned them?

For Napoletana I'm now at 58% hydration with Caputo pizzeria, 2.9% salt and made in my spiral mixer.  I still use my old and proven method of setting the upper to 400C and the lower to 300C or even off.  When I want to make a pizza I turn the upper to 500C, get a ball out, skin, top and bake with no turning.  It takes about 65-70 seconds to bake the pizza and I guess I'd measure about 470-480C on the stone when the pizza is launched.  No idea how long I take to make the pizza and I think it probably varies depending on how much I've imbibed :)  I'm not a race horse pizzaiolo and do take my time when opening the skin and topping the pizza.

If I put the lower thermostat at a higher temperature it doesn't really influence the temperature on the top of the biscotto.  What I think it does is to regulate how much thermal heat goes into the bottom of the pizza leading to a more crispy bottom.  I have lately tried with the lower set to a higher temperature and I don't burn the pizza any more, but to me it appears darker and more biscottata, that is to say crispy and no longer what I want in my Napoletana.  I think the reasons I don't burn the bottom is that I'm making a better dough, and I know better how to handle it on the bench.

On the other hand, when I make Tonda Romana I want the bottom crispy, so I actually have the upper at 300C and the lower at 450C.  This for 3-3.5 minutes and it doesn't burn the bottom, just makes it darker and crispier which is what I desire for this style.

For my new attempts at pizza classica baked for 2.5 minutes, I'm experimenting with around 350C above and 350-400C below.  My first attempt was with 350C/425C but that darkened the bottom more than I'd like.  I don't remember what my last bake had below, but I'm gonna try 375 below today (if the dough turns out ok, it's warmer than I foresaw). :D

From some tests I've made I've seen that the temperature drop over the biscotto is about 100C.  That means that if I put the lower thermostat to 450C the top of the biscotto will reach about 350C maximum.  The same in the other direction, if I put the upper thermostat to about 400C, I'll have about 300C below.

So I'm pretty sure that one can look at the dynamics of the whole thing, as that the upper thermostat controls the surface temperature of the biscotto and the ambient air temperature, while the lower controls how much heat the biscotto can give off, the higher you put it, the more heat energy the biscotto can transfer into the base of the pizza.

I don't turn any pizzas anymore, but I think it's important not to make a too big pizza and it's also important to centre it in the middle of the biscotto.  If it's close to a wall or the door, the cornicione will be less browned.

I don't remember what kind of p134h you have?  I upgraded my old one with a 3cm biscotto from Fornace Saputo, 500C upper thermostat, and a 1900W upper element.  Now they have 2100W upper element, maybe I need to order one of those too! :D

Another thought is to add a bypass switch for the upper thermostat.  This should allow to go even faster than the 60-70 seconds that I can go now.  Maybe adding some more isolation around the chamber too, both to keep more heat in the baking chamber as well as keeping the rest of the oven cooler.  A bypass would be relatively easy, just a switch, some cables and some connectors.

Flip the switch, open a beer, start making pizza and hopefully pull out a magical 45s pizza?
« Last Edit: July 03, 2021, 12:01:46 PM by amolapizza »
Jack

Effeuno P134H (500C), Biscotto Fornace Saputo, Sunmix Sun6, Caputo Pizzeria, Caputo Saccorosso, Mutti Pelati.

Offline amolapizza

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Re: My Road To Napoli
« Reply #376 on: July 03, 2021, 12:12:41 PM »
Looking great! I like the classical Italian pizza too, frankly i never had anything else in Italy since i never been to Naples. Do they always add oil to the dough for this type of pizza or does it work without it too?

I imagine that a dough without fat  would work very well too.  I've made quite a lot of pizza baked for 2 minutes with Napoletana dough, it was also excellent.  I'm adding the oil in the hope that it will act as a tenderizing agent but also in the hope of making the dough retain more gases.  Probably without the oil the pizza would be more crispy.

You could also use other fats, like strutto (rendered pig fat), butter, other vegetable oils.  I'm gonna have to try butter some day, that's bound to be very tasty!  >:D

The idea of adding 2.9% EVO is partly based of my own experiences of dough, but also based on the hints I've found on the Internet about this style of pizza.
Jack

Effeuno P134H (500C), Biscotto Fornace Saputo, Sunmix Sun6, Caputo Pizzeria, Caputo Saccorosso, Mutti Pelati.

Offline Heikjo

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Re: My Road To Napoli
« Reply #377 on: July 03, 2021, 02:06:33 PM »
For Napoletana I'm now at 58% hydration with Caputo pizzeria, 2.9% salt and made in my spiral mixer.  I still use my old and proven method of setting the upper to 400C and the lower to 300C or even off.  When I want to make a pizza I turn the upper to 500C, get a ball out, skin, top and bake with no turning.  It takes about 65-70 seconds to bake the pizza and I guess I'd measure about 470-480C on the stone when the pizza is launched.  No idea how long I take to make the pizza and I think it probably varies depending on how much I've imbibed :)  I'm not a race horse pizzaiolo and do take my time when opening the skin and topping the pizza.
Interesting that you have gone down on the hydration. I see in Wario's topic that it seemed better baked at 58%.

I'm also a slow loader, and it depends what I'm topping it with. My main concern about being slow is that the dough has grown fond of the countertop and refuse to let go. I'll do some measuring of stone temperature after it is warm next time. Is that 470-480 C in the middle of the stone?

How do you like the mixer btw? You've had it for some time now. I can understand it being useful if only for the mixing process, but how do you think it has affected the results?

If I put the lower thermostat at a higher temperature it doesn't really influence the temperature on the top of the biscotto.  What I think it does is to regulate how much thermal heat goes into the bottom of the pizza leading to a more crispy bottom.  I have lately tried with the lower set to a higher temperature and I don't burn the pizza any more, but to me it appears darker and more biscottata, that is to say crispy and no longer what I want in my Napoletana.  I think the reasons I don't burn the bottom is that I'm making a better dough, and I know better how to handle it on the bench.
I saw you did some testing with doming too, but even after you stopped that the bottoms looked pretty good. The mixer might have a hand at play in dough quality and how it handles.

I still got things to improve on my dough. Both handling and making. I'm so far pleased with the results of my new starter, so I hope I will be going in the right direction now. Sourdough does introduce some new factors that can throw some spanners in the works, but it's well worth it for me.

On the other hand, when I make Tonda Romana I want the bottom crispy, so I actually have the upper at 300C and the lower at 450C.  This for 3-3.5 minutes and it doesn't burn the bottom, just makes it darker and crispier which is what I desire for this style.

For my new attempts at pizza classica baked for 2.5 minutes, I'm experimenting with around 350C above and 350-400C below.  My first attempt was with 350C/425C but that darkened the bottom more than I'd like.  I don't remember what my last bake had below, but I'm gonna try 375 below today (if the dough turns out ok, it's warmer than I foresaw). :D
The lower temperature pies also looks great and I mean to give them a try too.

From some tests I've made I've seen that the temperature drop over the biscotto is about 100C.  That means that if I put the lower thermostat to 450C the top of the biscotto will reach about 350C maximum.  The same in the other direction, if I put the upper thermostat to about 400C, I'll have about 300C below.

So I'm pretty sure that one can look at the dynamics of the whole thing, as that the upper thermostat controls the surface temperature of the biscotto and the ambient air temperature, while the lower controls how much heat the biscotto can give off, the higher you put it, the more heat energy the biscotto can transfer into the base of the pizza.
There certainly is a balance that needs to be worked out, and it may not work the same for everyone. Measuring surface temperature is easy enough, but what's more important is the temperature after launch and how much heat the stone has stored up. Which isn't as easily measured.

I don't turn any pizzas anymore, but I think it's important not to make a too big pizza and it's also important to centre it in the middle of the biscotto.  If it's close to a wall or the door, the cornicione will be less browned.
That's true. Mine are usually around 27-28cm after baking. I think I tried making them slightly smaller when testing not opening the door, since the temperature differences are larger the further from center you get. It works without turning and I can get everything cooked, but had a fear that I either got an undercooked side or an overcooked one. As long as turning it doesn't have any negative effects, it's not that bad.

I don't remember what kind of p134h you have?  I upgraded my old one with a 3cm biscotto from Fornace Saputo, 500C upper thermostat, and a 1900W upper element.  Now they have 2100W upper element, maybe I need to order one of those too! :D
I got the 450C 2017 model with 2.8 kW, which I belive has 1900W upper and 900W lower element. And the upper thermostat is modified slightly to make it hotter.

Another thought is to add a bypass switch for the upper thermostat.  This should allow to go even faster than the 60-70 seconds that I can go now.  Maybe adding some more isolation around the chamber too, both to keep more heat in the baking chamber as well as keeping the rest of the oven cooler.  A bypass would be relatively easy, just a switch, some cables and some connectors.

Flip the switch, open a beer, start making pizza and hopefully pull out a magical 45s pizza?
A bypass would be interesting, but I wonder how it would make the temperature management concerning the stone. If the upper element is allowed to stay on even longer, the stone will be hotter, but a bypass would also allow you to choose when to turn on the upper element, regardless of temperature.

There are many mods one can do and I must admit that a 40-45 s pie would be cool, but I think I'll settle for optimizing what I already got. If anything, I'd probably focus a modification on making the best 60 s pie I can first. A PID would be interesting, or some kind of software where you can program the sequence. I know some at La Confraternita has done modifications, gsans in here and I found a French forum once that had various mods.

If I ever get a house, it would be fun to have a WFO. Since I already got an electric, I might want a WFO over gas.
Heine
Oven: Effeuno P134H

Offline amolapizza

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Re: My Road To Napoli
« Reply #378 on: July 04, 2021, 09:51:44 AM »
Interesting that you have gone down on the hydration. I see in Wario's topic that it seemed better baked at 58%.

I did 60% for a long time, but I thought that maybe that left a hint of uncooked dough.  Not really raw, but just a hint that it might have needed more baking.  That went away when I dropped the hydration, or at least I think so, though I could be mistaken.  Unfortunately I don't bake enough pizza to make comparisons easy.

Quote
I'm also a slow loader, and it depends what I'm topping it with. My main concern about being slow is that the dough has grown fond of the countertop and refuse to let go. I'll do some measuring of stone temperature after it is warm next time. Is that 470-480 C in the middle of the stone?

Yes, in the middle of the stone.

Quote
How do you like the mixer btw? You've had it for some time now. I can understand it being useful if only for the mixing process, but how do you think it has affected the results?
I saw you did some testing with doming too, but even after you stopped that the bottoms looked pretty good. The mixer might have a hand at play in dough quality and how it handles.

Yes, since reading Chau's Famag thread I've started wondering if maybe it's the spiral mixer, which is the reason that I feel I've become a better pizzaiolo.. :D

It does amazingly good dough for all kinds of baking.  I'm really happy that I have it, and it also saves some time and work.


Quote
That's true. Mine are usually around 27-28cm after baking. I think I tried making them slightly smaller when testing not opening the door, since the temperature differences are larger the further from center you get. It works without turning and I can get everything cooked, but had a fear that I either got an undercooked side or an overcooked one. As long as turning it doesn't have any negative effects, it's not that bad.

Since I upgraded to the new 1900W element, I haven't really felt a need to turn the pizza, just have to try to get it to the right size and land it in the middle of biscotto.

Quote
I got the 450C 2017 model with 2.8 kW, which I belive has 1900W upper and 900W lower element. And the upper thermostat is modified slightly to make it hotter.

Then you've got the same as I do.  I don't know but maybe your biscotto is a bit different than mine, and will perform differently, and since you recalibrated the upper thermostat, both of our ovens go to 500C+.

Or our different experiences are just down to dough and handling! 


Quote
There are many mods one can do and I must admit that a 40-45 s pie would be cool, but I think I'll settle for optimizing what I already got. If anything, I'd probably focus a modification on making the best 60 s pie I can first. A PID would be interesting, or some kind of software where you can program the sequence. I know some at La Confraternita has done modifications, gsans in here and I found a French forum once that had various mods.

They have also released the new p134h with electronic controls.  Looks very nice, but I don't think it would offer me anything substantially better, though it does have a 2100W upper element..  But it's quite expensive, so I think I'll stick with what I've got.  It's a really great oven and so far I've made napoletana, tonda romana and classical italian round pizza.  It's really an asset to have in the kitchen, turn it on and then bake any of many styles 45 minutes later.
Jack

Effeuno P134H (500C), Biscotto Fornace Saputo, Sunmix Sun6, Caputo Pizzeria, Caputo Saccorosso, Mutti Pelati.

Offline amolapizza

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Re: My Road To Napoli
« Reply #379 on: July 04, 2021, 10:07:53 AM »
Yesterday wasn't my day!

I was going to make classica so I made a dough as normal and when I went to close it on the counter I found the yeast still on the scales.. :D

OK, I threw the dough away and made another this time including yeast.  I closed it, bulked it, balled it, proofed it, and finally opened up the first skin.  After topping it I saw that the oven was at the wrong setting, the upper thermostat was about 75C above where I wanted it.

I thought I'll lower the temp and wait a while.  30 minutes later the pizza seemed to still slide around on the peel so into the oven it went, only that it stuck a bit on the peel and deformed,  I thought not too badly, It'll be eatable but not photogenic.

I was wrong!  It tore badly while taking it out.  I got enough to eat some but the oven was a massacre! :D

With such a mess I gave up on pizza, I let the oven pirolize and finally I made some panuozzi..  My calculation that if the pizza isn't great I still have another 3 balls went badly wrong!  I suppose I fell victim of my own hybris in thinking that this doesn't happen to me anymore! :D

What makes it doubly sad is that I would have baked a nice pizza even at the higher temperature, it would only have gone a bit faster.

I'm including a photo for everyone's enjoyment.
Jack

Effeuno P134H (500C), Biscotto Fornace Saputo, Sunmix Sun6, Caputo Pizzeria, Caputo Saccorosso, Mutti Pelati.

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