Sourdough Starter and Wine yeast

[laurence Russo]

So....typical story of a 18 month old starter being neglected to the point of throw out.  Just finished the wine harvest and started thinking about all of the wine yeast available in the Scott Wine catalog of yeast.  Has anyone tried the various wine strains (way too many) added to sourdough?....... what a wine maker does with his chardonnay?

I am currently using a VL3 boosted to my sour dough as a test....it is a Sav Blanc yeast that gives a typical grassy flavor profile (to sav  grapes) not to the sour dough.  I have a few others as well......some designed for glycerin effect, others for the ability to stay active at colder temps ....chardonnay.  Anyone have any thoughts on the use of not a bakers yeast but those from a Wine Lab?

Laurence

[TXCraig1]

“Sourdough” relies on a symbiotic relationship of a specific yeast and lactic acid bacteria. Adding wine yeast (enough of it to make a difference and not just get dominated by the established colony), you might get some different flavors or maybe you'd get less flavor if you mess up the balance?

I'd be curious to hear what you learn if you try it though. I'd split your starter and only add wine yeast to half of it.

Craig

[norma427]

Laurence,

I did add wine to one of my natural starters at Reply 83 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10008.msg88293.html#msg88293 It was a wine-AP-Caputo natural starter which I showed a picture of at Reply 88 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10008.msg88802.html#msg88802

Norma

[laurence Russo]

OK I understand some may view the use of wine yeast in the same category of a bakers yeast (not stating you are)  but with my experience with wine making....the choices of exact strain of yeast at your disposal to achieve a flavor profile is there.  As far as a "symbiotic" relationship I can't imagine that won't exist with yeasts strains that work well in very high Co2 environments, cold fermentation temperatures, 14.5% alcohol contents.....the list is endless....so moving it over to a lactic acid environment.....and we wine makers introduce this lactic strain to soften wines......I have a hard time thinking it's any issue achieving a "symbiotic marriage"

The VL3 is going through it's second batch today.....I just started think about Tartine bread and Chad being up in Point Reyes....wine makers stopping by and talking yeast with him. I can tell you that my first batch of "true" from scratch sourdough got me hooked but it isn't near the level of flavor profile Tartine achieves. 

I am not writing to sway anyone over to looking over a wine yeast in a catalogue. I am looking to get a better tasting bread than what I got from my attempts of grabbing a yeast strain out of the air.  Just wondered if anyone else had used the Scott catalog and if they could say....Laurence... I used the X5 strain  (my next choice)  and it's a winner.  Heck, most wine is produced with several different yeast fermentations held apart then blended prior to bottling. Some wine makers choose yeast to marry a grape off a specific soil...some choose a strain to marry up with the type of barrel they will be using.

Just searching for a better results.........Again, maybe my "true" out of the air strain around my kitchen just left me wanting a bit more. NOT at all stating this is a BETTER path.....just a path...... well,  that I am on.

Laurence

[TXCraig1]

Maybe you're right - I don't know. It doesn't cost much to experiment. I hope you do. I'd like to hear what you find.

The symboisis is more about food than environment (CO2, alcohol, temperature, etc). Water causes naturally occurring amylase enzymes to break down the starch in the flour into sucrose and maltose. The lactic acid bacteria feeds on the maltose (and can't metabolize other sugars), and the strains of yeast often found in sourdough cultures can't metabolize the maltose, so there isn't any competition for food. Also, while consuming the maltose, the bacteria release an enzyme that breaks down maltose into glucose which is another sugar the yeast can metabolize.

Wine yeasts are typically a strain of Saccharomyces cerevisiae (the same genus and species found in bakers and [top capping] brewer’s yeast). The yeasts found in sourdough cultures are typically strains of Candida milleri or Saccharomyces exiguous. Will they play nice with the LAB and other yeast and share the food? Will the byproducts of fermentation made by the wine yeast strains that create desirable traits in wine also be desirable in dough? I don’t know. I’m just saying it’s not a given that they will.

Craig

[laurence Russo]

Great points......but I have to point out that the Scott Lab supplied yeasts are NOT derivatives of bakers yeast (AT ALL!) These are natural strains gleamed from different regions Europe, Spain, yada yada ...... they are grown and identified. They are then cataloged. As the Wine Producers use and them....mainly in small test barrels the results are shared back to Scott Labs so that a characteristics for the strain can be assigned. Again, these are natural strains.

[TXCraig1]

Great points......but I have to point out that the Scott Lab supplied yeasts are NOT derivatives of bakers yeast (AT ALL!) These are natural strains gleamed from different regions Europe, Spain, yada yada ...... they are grown and identified. They are then cataloged. As the Wine Producers use and them....mainly in small test barrels the results are shared back to Scott Labs so that a characteristics for the strain can be assigned. Again, these are natural strains.

Do you know the genus and species of the yeasts you're referring to? I'm curious if you do or can find out. Just because they are not derived from bakers yeast doesn't mean they are not both S. cerevisaise - just different strains.

CL

[laurence Russo]

Just checked your quest. on Genome of VL3 out of Australia and it is Sacccharomyces Cervisiale

So is my next test item the X5 yeast..... not out of Australia though.

Laurence

[TXCraig1]

I looked up VL3 at NCBI. It's S. cerevisiae. Which is the same species as bakers yeast - just a different strain.

CL

[laurence Russo]

OK so how do you know your wild captured yeast wouldn't end up being identified to be part of the same genome?  It seams a little silly for me not to try these different strains......no?

LR

[TXCraig1]

OK so how do you know your wild captured yeast wouldn't end up being identified to be part of the same genome?  It seams a little silly for me not to try these different strains......no?

LR

Like I said several times, I hope you do try it. I'm curious to know what happens.

CL

[ThePieman]

Baking yeast will not survive the acid environment of a sourdough culture/starter.

[laurence Russo]

Yes, I do know that baking yeast would not survive in the starter. I was adding it to the bulk dough at time of making a loaf.
What I got from the final product was a less of a product.

I did however, find my yeast food from Scott labs and used it on a test sample of starter with good results. I am going to keep using it on a test starter sample to compare to one that is not fed the GoFerm.