To feed or not to feed

[Pizza3.14]

Morning Forum,

I was wondering what the opinions are on using a starter or sponge basically as an ingredient.  When you do this, should you use it simply warmed, or warmed and fed before it goes into the mixer? 

[Pizza3.14]

Pete-zza,
my question is more specific now that I have done more reading. 
in your Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza post 165 you say,

"To prepare the dough preferment, the evening before I planned to make the Lehmann dough I took 1/2 cup of my natural batter-like preferment, which I had refreshed earlier in the day with flour and warm water (a process that took about 3 hours after taking it out of the refrigerator), and combined it with the following: 3 ounces of flour (1/4 c. plus 7 t.) and 2 1/2 ounces of warm water (1/4 c., at 85-90 degrees F). After thoroughly mixing these ingredients together in a bowl to achieve a somewhat thick, dough-like consistency, I lightly covered the bowl (I used a loose fitting lid but a towel can also be used) and set it on my countertop to allow the dough preferment to ferment and ripen overnight so that it would be ready to use by morning."

Is this the same way you prepared the preferment in post 151 of the same thread?

Also, I also saw you mention in Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza post 128 that "Back then, I was in the preferment learning stage and knew a lot less than what I believe I now know (I have also learned more about autolyse)." 

Since that last post was around 2 years ago would you still recommend the techniques from post 151 or 165? 

I am looking for an at home natural yeast preferment.  I have been trying several different variations including different flours and refrigeration times(cold fermentation)  I am looking to start really documenting everything so I can actually make progress instead of going from one thing to the next. 

[TXCraig1]

For pizza, I generally do as Pete describes to bring my starter to full activity before using it in a recipe.

To your question about using it as an ingredient, I do that too from time-to-time with bread leavened with regular yeast (but not my pizza which is only uses a natural preferment). I'll make the recipe as written with regular yeast then add some of my culture (cold - right out of the fridge) for flavor. My mother culture in the fridge has a lot more flavor and is a lot more acidic than the "preferment" I make to bring the culture back to full activity as it has been active for much, much longer. A little goes a long way. An example of this is here:  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17125.0.html

Craig

[Pizza3.14]

 Craig,

Thanks for the response.  I read the link, this sounds like what I have tried in a pizza dough attempt.  From reading how to use the dough converter and other posts I decided to use my natural yeast at 9%.  I have tried it straight from the fridge like you did with your burger buns. 

I am going to stay with the 9% and try the same dough with the natural starter again.  This morning I took a portion out of the fridge discarded half of it and added about 35g of both water and KAAP.  It is sitting by the wood stove now. 

I am working with the typical electric oven that I just adjusted to go to 585.  I use two stones on the bottom rack and 1 stone on the next rack up to provide top heat.  As I can't create the high temps for NP I guess I am working on a NY/NP? 

I had such good luck with gluttenboy's long fermentation I decided to start on one using local yeast. 

If I am using that 9% preferment what is a good percentage of the flour and water I should mix that with before making the final dough? 

Or should I mix the dough as normal except add the preferment to the rest of the flour and water when mixing the dough? 

Congrats on the nice write up!  Also on the hunt with your son.  Now you have a reason for more burger buns. 

Greg

[TXCraig1]

I had such good luck with gluttenboy's long fermentation I decided to start on one using local yeast. 

If I am using that 9% preferment what is a good percentage of the flour and water I should mix that with before making the final dough? 

Or should I mix the dough as normal except add the preferment to the rest of the flour and water when mixing the dough? 

Greg,

I use the direct method - I dissolve the salt into the water, mix the culture into the saltwater, add about 60% the flour and mix it up by hand (using the dough hook) then set it to mixing and slowly add the last 40% of the flour in large spoonfuls trying to let the dough incorporate some air. The last 40% goes in over about 5 minutes or so. I then let the mixer knead for 3 minutes or so - until it is looking relatively smooth and homogeneous. I then let it rest for 7-10 minutes, give it 6-10 stretch and folds like is done in the sweet dough video I posted in the hamburger bun link, another 7-10 minute rest, a few more stretch and folds, and it's as soft and smooth as a baby's bottom and ready to go into the tub for bulk fermentation.

I'm using 1.5% starter. You can use 9%, you will just need to figure out what else to do to get it the way you want it. You have three variables you'll have to experiment with to find your balance: 1) starter quantity, 2) temperature, and 3) time. Also, temperature probably won't be a constant. I use 60F for the first 36 hours and 80F for the last 10-12.

CL

[Pizza3.14]

Craig,

Thanks, I will incorporate the starter in with the dough while mixing.  Seems like quite a big difference between 1.5 and 9.  I will start with a lower number and a longer ferment time.  Thanks for the information. 

[TXCraig1]

As a point of reference, I see almost no signs of fermentation after the first 36 hours at 60F. I'm just starting to see teeny tiny bubbles starting to form. All the rise comes in the final 10-12 hours in balls.

It will take some experimentation to figure out your times and temps. Don't get frustrated.

Craig

[Pizza3.14]

As usual I changed what I am doing.  However knowing quite a bit more than even yesterday I feel like it was a good move.  I had planned on a cold fermentation because I am not ready to use the dough and I don't have a constant temp set up other than the fridge.  I found Pete-zza's all natural preferment NY style post and decided that that would be a good foundation for me to start with.  So rather than lowering the total percentage I actually raised it to 20. 

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg11774.html#msg11774 

I used KASL flour and plan to bake on Friday. 

[Pizza3.14]

Here are a few shots of the all natural preferment dough balls.  The water temp that I started with was about 100 and the final dough temp right before balling was 81. 

[Pizza3.14]

Here is one of the two dough  balls that I cooked tonight.  I was happy with everything except for the cook time and the flavor of the dough. 

It seemed that the crumb was a bit soft and bread like.  Also, the flavor was missing.  I left the other dough ball for tomorrow night to see if another day would help. 

Also, the bake time was 8.5 min took it out and I felt like it needed more so I put it on the top stone for another 1.5 min.  I enjoy a thin crust then a moist crumb but when it first came out I started to cut it and it seemed to be too tender.  However when it came out again it was a bit too much crunch before the tender center. 

I let the dough sit in my living room by the wood stove for 3.5 hours and it got plenty warm but still not the flavor I am looking for. 

Does anyone have any thoughts on a bake time or suggestions on how to get better flavor by using only natural yeast?  I prefer a cold fermentation because of the changing temps of the house in the winter. 

I will cook the other pie tomorrow. 

[Pizza3.14]

bottom

[Pizza3.14]

Tonight I cooked the second of the two natural yeast KASL dough balls.  I was hoping that the third day in the fridge would add to the flavor.  I found that it did not to the extent that I would have preferred. 

The texture I feel improved.  The crust had a very nice crisp outer shell followed by a very soft crumb.  Also, the dough opened beautify.  I am very happy with the texture and browning, however I would still like to get some more flavor out of the dough. 

Does anyone have any experiences making natural yeast dough with a fridge/counter fermentation that worked well for them.  Possibly an old thread that you could post or current thoughts? 

Here is the only pic I got of it because of the amount of people waiting for pizza it was going quick. 

   

[TXCraig1]

Does anyone have any experiences making natural yeast dough with a fridge/counter fermentation that worked well for them.  Possibly an old thread that you could post or current thoughts? 

I have not seen a natural starter leavened dough work well using refrigeration. Everything you could want to know about how I use them is in here somewhere: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14249.0.html

I'm happy to answer any specific questions you might have after looking through it.

CL

[Pizza3.14]

Thank you for your advice.  I understand that natural yeast seems to need a warmer temp for the dough to take on a good pizza flavor.  I like the idea of a natural starter, now I just need to find a way to get the pizza I want with it consistently.  I will keep reading your thread and others gathering information.  Thanks again,

Greg

[TXCraig1]

Near the end, I discuss how I use a Igloo cooler to maintain temp during bulk fermentation. It's a super simple and inexpensive solution. When in balls, I vary the temp as needed between 60 and 90F such that the dough is ready exactly when I need it. That just takes some practice and experimentation.

CL