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Author Topic: % of starter in sourdough pizza  (Read 1449 times)

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Offline jvp123

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Re: % of starter in sourdough pizza
« Reply #20 on: November 22, 2017, 08:37:20 PM »
THIS IS ALL VERY CONFUSING!

haha I say that in an exciting kinda way.

Let me go back to a previous post to get something right.... the chart with the times and temperatures based on the % of starter, are they total times including bulk + ball form? or just for bulk. ?

If so, how does one decide when to stop the bulk ferment and move to ball ?

J



It's total time ....

In terms of bulk/ball -- Experience may play into this, trial and error and a bit of common sense, but I've had success at 24 bulk and 24 ball.  Once you are in the ball stage you may need to adjust the temperature up or down (via moving the balls to cooler or warmer areas) based on how the dough looks in terms of fermentation - i.e. how much the dough as expanded, and, if you have a clear container, how the bubbles look from underneath.  I think the dough should have expanded by appx 1.5X  and there should be small bubbles visible from underneath.   

note - this is just a method I've used and I"m not an NP expert.  I make mostly CF NY pies.  Some do much shorter RT fermentations and possibly skip the bulk phase altogether.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2017, 08:41:35 PM by jvp123 »
Jeff

Offline mitchjg

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Re: % of starter in sourdough pizza
« Reply #21 on: November 22, 2017, 09:16:02 PM »
Since you asked about time before, with some uncertainty about the starter feeding - as JVP said, it is total time for bulk and balling.  The preceding time needed to feed your starter and make sure it is active is not in the numbers.  That depends on your starter and your feeding regimen.

I think you will be very interested in this thread: https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,20477.msg202047.html#msg202047
Mitch

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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: % of starter in sourdough pizza
« Reply #22 on: November 23, 2017, 09:20:58 AM »
If so, how does one decide when to stop the bulk ferment and move to ball ?

I believe it's good to have a workflow that is sufficiently long to warrant both a bulk and ball step somewhere midway as it serves to redistribute the yeast and food much like patting down bread dough and forming loaves.

For room temp ferments in a home setting, the timing is largely about the extensibility of the balls. The longer in balls, the more extensible the dough. Too long in balls, and the dough can be very extensible and hard to open without getting thin spots. I like somewhere between 12 and 24 hours in balls.

For cold ferments, I'm not sure it matters as much as the gluten doesn't seem to relax the same way as it does at room temp.
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: % of starter in sourdough pizza
« Reply #23 on: November 23, 2017, 10:14:03 AM »
There are SO MANY people and cookbooks who recommend a cold ferment it would be very easy for anyone to do a google search to confirm that.

The reason that there are so many cooks and cookbooks that recommend CF is because it's a relatively foolproof way to make a dough that's better than an "emergency dough." Room temperature fermentation is significantly more difficult as it requires accurately measuring minute quantities of yeast and precisely controlling temperature and workflow. Cooks and cookbooks don't recommend this method because (1) they generally want to appeal to a broad audience and most people don't want to deal with the complexities of RT nor do they care; they just want easy and foolproof, and (2) if they did recommend RT, they would get a big string of negative reviews about how their recipes don't work.
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: % of starter in sourdough pizza
« Reply #24 on: November 23, 2017, 10:57:53 AM »
I may have missed something already mentioned here as I just skimmed it quickly, but it sounds like you are making NP pizza and if so I've had the best luck at levels under 5%SD for this style and a RT fermentation cycle of about 48 hours in the low 60sF.

That said -- I defer to Craig as he has a ton of experience in this area AND I've personally tasted his NP pizza and it's amazing.

** note: by "pizza" I'm primarily referring to Neapolitan pizza.

In Naples, they use water as the basis of the percentages. For pizza made with sourdough, the conventional wisdom there is <5% which equates to about <3.1% of the flour at typical hydrations. I subscribe to a philosophy that I believe originated in Naples that 'Pizza is not bread.' This is manifest in many ways, one of which is the amount of starter used. Pizza is not made with the indirect (preferment) method. Unlike much bread dough, flavor in Pizza dough is developed over time as opposed to being introduced by a preferment character that overtakes the dough. I also think there are broad negatives of introducing large amounts of acids and enzymes all at once as opposed to developing them slowly over time.

Having experimented with levels as high as 54% (https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=10237.0) and at many points in between, I'm solidly in the "less is more" camp.  Is the cutoff 3%? I don't know. All of my best Pizza has been made at 2.2% or less, but that may be a result of other factors including time and temp. For dough over 24 hours, I think 3% is a good number. My gut feeling is that for dough <24 hours, a max of somewhere in the 5-7% range is right though I think 3% may still make better pizza if you mind your P's & Q's.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2017, 11:01:31 AM by TXCraig1 »
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Offline Jr07

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Re: % of starter in sourdough pizza
« Reply #25 on: November 23, 2017, 02:09:52 PM »
excellent i will try 5 % next and see results, with 60% hydration and all in one day, at room temp. feed starter 7 am mix dough noon , shape balls 5 pm, bake pies 9pm

Offline mitchjg

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Re: % of starter in sourdough pizza
« Reply #26 on: November 23, 2017, 02:28:26 PM »
excellent i will try 5 % next and see results, with 60% hydration and all in one day, at room temp. feed starter 7 am mix dough noon , shape balls 5 pm, bake pies 9pm

I think that when Craig suggested 5% to 7% for a dough that goes for less than 24 hours, you inferred that 5% would be OK for 9 hours (we are excluding the feeding of the starter).  That is not likely to be enough.

Looking at the chart, with a room temperature of 72 and a 9 hour ferment- the chart calls for around 20%.  Everything needs to be fine tuned to your workflow and room temparature but 5% is not going to be enough.  Go longer in time or higher in starter. 

If you look at the chart, in the 72 degree line and you look at the timing and starter amount, you will see the range of 3 to 5% fits nicely in the 18 to 24 hour range.  Don't make a leap that "less than 24" means 9 is ok.

Make sense?
Mitch

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Offline Jr07

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Re: % of starter in sourdough pizza
« Reply #27 on: November 23, 2017, 02:56:50 PM »
makes perfect sense and since I want to give 5% starter a go, I will increase the time so perhaps behin the night before

Offline mitchjg

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Re: % of starter in sourdough pizza
« Reply #28 on: November 23, 2017, 03:25:12 PM »
makes perfect sense and since I want to give 5% starter a go, I will increase the time so perhaps behin the night before

Sounds great - good luck!
Mitch

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Offline Jr07

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Re: % of starter in sourdough pizza
« Reply #29 on: November 26, 2017, 09:21:21 PM »
Just tried my first 5% pie and it was horrible. No corniccione, flat, terrible. Is the % of sourdough in the dough a factor in the spring? I also baked the first one straight out of the fridge so that may too be a factor... will wait a few hours to bake the next. Is there a connection between temperature of the dough and oven spring?

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Offline Essen1

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Re: % of starter in sourdough pizza
« Reply #30 on: November 26, 2017, 09:39:26 PM »
Just tried my first 5% pie and it was horrible. No corniccione, flat, terrible. Is the % of sourdough in the dough a factor in the spring? I also baked the first one straight out of the fridge so that may too be a factor... will wait a few hours to bake the next. Is there a connection between temperature of the dough and oven spring?

Never put a cold dough into the oven. Ever.
Mike

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Offline mitchjg

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Re: % of starter in sourdough pizza
« Reply #31 on: November 26, 2017, 09:43:50 PM »
Just tried my first 5% pie and it was horrible. No corniccione, flat, terrible. Is the % of sourdough in the dough a factor in the spring? I also baked the first one straight out of the fridge so that may too be a factor... will wait a few hours to bake the next. Is there a connection between temperature of the dough and oven spring?

I think we have a mixup here.  I thought your plan was to make the 5% dough and ferment it at room temperature.  Very little fermentation happens in the fridge.  Some activity in the early part of the refrigeration because it is on a curve down from room temperature to the fridge temperature (say 38 degrees).  Once it is down there in temperature, that is about it. 

So, yes, you should let it warm up out of the fridge.  Otherwise there was not enough fementation (unless perhaps you left it out at room temperature for several hours before putting it in the fridge).

Sorry it did not work for you.  My suggestion is to try again with no fridge at all.

Best of luck!
Mitch

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Online Dangerous Salumi

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Re: % of starter in sourdough pizza
« Reply #32 on: November 27, 2017, 08:38:24 AM »
The reason that there are so many cooks and cookbooks that recommend CF is because it's a relatively foolproof way to make a dough that's better than an "emergency dough." Room temperature fermentation is significantly more difficult as it requires accurately measuring minute quantities of yeast and precisely controlling temperature and workflow. Cooks and cookbooks don't recommend this method because (1) they generally want to appeal to a broad audience and most people don't want to deal with the complexities of RT nor do they care; they just want easy and foolproof, and (2) if they did recommend RT, they would get a big string of negative reviews about how their recipes don't work.

I disagree.
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: % of starter in sourdough pizza
« Reply #33 on: November 27, 2017, 08:45:52 AM »
I disagree.

Instead of firing off drive-by comments, perhaps you will enlighten us with your extensive research? What precisely do you disagree with? What do you have to support your opinion?
« Last Edit: November 27, 2017, 08:56:33 AM by TXCraig1 »
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Offline Jr07

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Re: % of starter in sourdough pizza
« Reply #34 on: November 27, 2017, 02:23:15 PM »
I left my second dough out last night for an hour and got a much better result. So I agree with all of you never bake a cold dough. Ever. I have tried a second batch today at 10% sd with 65% hydration and will not go through fridge at all. We shall see

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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: % of starter in sourdough pizza
« Reply #35 on: November 27, 2017, 02:39:54 PM »
I left my second dough out last night for an hour and got a much better result. So I agree with all of you never bake a cold dough. Ever. I have tried a second batch today at 10% sd with 65% hydration and will not go through fridge at all. We shall see

You thinking somewhere around 12 hours at room temp?
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
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Online Dangerous Salumi

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Re: % of starter in sourdough pizza
« Reply #36 on: November 27, 2017, 05:27:19 PM »
Instead of firing off drive-by comments, perhaps you will enlighten us with your extensive research? What precisely do you disagree with? What do you have to support your opinion?

I do have a business to run. I cant sit here all day and post about pizza.
Have a Dangerous day!


“They say that competitive eating is the battleground upon which God and Lucifer wage war for mens souls my friends, and they are right.”  - George Shea, Chairman, Major League Eating

Online Dangerous Salumi

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Re: % of starter in sourdough pizza
« Reply #37 on: November 27, 2017, 05:45:54 PM »
The reason that there are so many cooks and cookbooks that recommend CF is because it's a relatively foolproof way to make a dough that's better than an "emergency dough." Room temperature fermentation is significantly more difficult as it requires accurately measuring minute quantities of yeast and precisely controlling temperature and workflow. Cooks and cookbooks don't recommend this method because (1) they generally want to appeal to a broad audience and most people don't want to deal with the complexities of RT nor do they care; they just want easy and foolproof, and (2) if they did recommend RT, they would get a big string of negative reviews about how their recipes don't work.

I dont now where to begin.

The experts say that CF improves flavor. "Flavor takes time" My results agree with this. You don't want to believe this because you found a few papers that had couple simple formulas, put them in a spreadsheet and now you are often incorrectly interpreting those results and likely incorrectly using the formulas AND telling anyone who will listen that CF is a waste of time.  Its wrong. Im not drinking your Kool Aid. Others shouldn't either IMHO.

RT is certainly not more difficult for the home baker. If you are talking about industrial baking facilities (which is what those formulas you so often bring up would be useful) where you have a moving production line with a lot of product at risk then yes it could be more difficult and stressful. Home bakers, +/- 1 hour, is ok. No need to be super accurate because there are so many other variables that could alter the outcome there is no need to be.

Many many cookbooks were written before the internet was even around. The "reviews" agreement above doesn't hold water.
Have a Dangerous day!


“They say that competitive eating is the battleground upon which God and Lucifer wage war for mens souls my friends, and they are right.”  - George Shea, Chairman, Major League Eating

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: % of starter in sourdough pizza
« Reply #38 on: November 27, 2017, 05:56:49 PM »
The experts say that CF improves flavor. "Flavor takes time" My results agree with this. You don't want to believe this because you found a few papers that had couple simple formulas, put them in a spreadsheet and now you are often incorrectly interpreting those results and likely incorrectly using the formulas AND telling anyone who will listen that CF is a waste of time.  Its wrong. Im not drinking your Kool Aid. Others shouldn't either IMHO.

Where did I say it doesn't improve flavor? Like I said a couple posts above, "it's a relatively foolproof way to make a dough that's better than an emergency dough." You have a bad habit of reading between the lines, putting words into people's mouths, and personalizing things that have nothing to do with you.

RT is certainly not more difficult for the home baker.

A whole lot of people who have come and gone from here over they years will disagree with you - and they are the ones who really cared about making better pizza. Most people don't. They just want something simple, fool proof, and decent tasting. 

you found a few papers that had couple simple formulas, put them in a spreadsheet and now you are often incorrectly interpreting those results and likely incorrectly using the formulas

How about a couple specific examples?

"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
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Offline AussiePizzaiolo

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Re: % of starter in sourdough pizza
« Reply #39 on: November 27, 2017, 06:27:52 PM »
20% starter is a good amount. ABI recommends 20-40%.
I grew my own starter and my dough doubles I size in a 5 hour rt rise but lacks the flavor of a 1-5 day cf followed by some rt time. I don't use any IDY.

I prefer 24 hr cf followed by a few hours rt.

When I make my dough I use Varasono's method and then ball it and put it in the refrigerator.

Your stater should be doing this when you feed it. If it's not then the starter should be developed more prior to using it.

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=49830.0


Hey,

I just pulled my starter out of the fridge yesterday evening and fed it. I want to use it 24 hours later for a 48 hour fridge ferment.

Is that long enough for the yeast to activate, or should I feed the starter and give it another 24 hours?

This is how it looks after about 18 hours after I last fed it. Before that, it was in the fridge.

Thanks

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