Pizza Making Forum

General Topics => Pizza Ovens => Pizza Making Equipment => Hearth Ovens => Topic started by: mitchjg on July 04, 2012, 12:43:26 PM

Title: Forno Bravo Andiamo or Forno Classico Piccolo
Post by: mitchjg on July 04, 2012, 12:43:26 PM
I am gearing up to ordering a pre-assembled wfo. I do not want a permanent installation and want the ability to move my oven on casters.

Other than one I spotted on eBay (2 fat boys), the Andiamo is the only one I have found so far. My wife and I stopped by the Forno Bravo factory this week (we were in the area on a quick vacation from our home in Oakland) and saw one up close.  That was fun.

But, now I have also found the oven from Forno Classico.  I have a note into them to learn if they can / will manufacture the stand on caster wheels.

Also, I am undecided between the larger/smaller Andiamo.  That is primarily a size and ease of movement question.

I would appreciate any feedback on the 3 choices (other?) I have, so far, narrowed it down to.

The 2 fat boys oven (http://twofatboys.com/) seems like the best deal but the steel look is very industrial looking and I am not sure if they have a reputation developed.

Thanks!

- Mitch
Title: Re: Forno Bravo Andiamo or Forno Classico Piccolo
Post by: Woodfiredovenpizzero on July 04, 2012, 02:47:50 PM
Mitch:

after over  year of searching the internet I purchased the Picollo from Forno Classico. One of my requirements was the portability. Since I own the oven I have been please with the results. There re many ovens on the market but this one worked well for me.

Edgar
Title: Re: Forno Bravo Andiamo or Forno Classico Piccolo
Post by: mitchjg on July 04, 2012, 05:38:36 PM
Thanks for your recommendation.

Given you wanted portability, how exactly do you move it?  I understand it weighs 400 pounds - unless it has wheels, I do not see it going anywhere once it is put in a place.

- Mitch
Title: Re: Forno Bravo Andiamo or Forno Classico Piccolo
Post by: fornographer on July 04, 2012, 05:39:28 PM
I am gearing up to ordering a pre-assembled wfo. I do not want a permanent installation and want the ability to move my oven on casters.

Other than one I spotted on eBay (2 fat boys), the Andiamo is the only one I have found so far. My wife and I stopped by the Forno Bravo factory this week (we were in the area on a quick vacation from our home in Oakland) and saw one up close.  That was fun.

But, now I have also found the oven from Forno Classico.  I have a note into them to learn if they can / will manufacture the stand on caster wheels.

Also, I am undecided between the larger/smaller Andiamo.  That is primarily a size and ease of movement question.

I would appreciate any feedback on the 3 choices (other?) I have, so far, narrowed it down to.

The 2 fat boys oven (http://twofatboys.com/) seems like the best deal but the steel look is very industrial looking and I am not sure if they have a reputation developed.

Thanks!

- Mitch


I got the Andiamo 70. You can read about my experience with it so far:  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18632.0.html
Title: Re: Forno Bravo Andiamo or Forno Classico Piccolo
Post by: mitchjg on July 04, 2012, 06:30:53 PM
Thanks fornographer!  I just read through your adventure thus far.  Looks like a great oven and it is clear that your pies look better and better with each round!

Can you tell me how difficult it is to move?  I would be keeping it in my courtyard which is all slate tile.  So, pretty smooth surface, no rough terrain.  Can one move it easily?  Are two required?  Depending on difficulty, I could "give it up" and get a primavera.  Or, if it is relatively easy to move, there are 2 spots it could go.  One would require constant movement (roll it out to use, roll it back to store).  The other would pretty much be a permanent spot.

thanks.
Title: Re: Forno Bravo Andiamo or Forno Classico Piccolo
Post by: fornographer on July 04, 2012, 07:48:59 PM
Thanks fornographer!  I just read through your adventure thus far.  Looks like a great oven and it is clear that your pies look better and better with each round!

Can you tell me how difficult it is to move?  I would be keeping it in my courtyard which is all slate tile.  So, pretty smooth surface, no rough terrain.  Can one move it easily?  Are two required?  Depending on difficulty, I could "give it up" and get a primavera.  Or, if it is relatively easy to move, there are 2 spots it could go.  One would require constant movement (roll it out to use, roll it back to store).  The other would pretty much be a permanent spot.

thanks.

You will be able to move it by yourself quite easily as long as the floor is smooth.  The wheels are made out of plastic that can easily get worn if they are rolled on a rough floor.   Should you decide to in the future, you can replace the casters with bigger ones (even pneumatic tires) so it will roll a lot easier. 

If there's a incline on the location where you will be situating the oven, I strongly recommend having a couple of strong folks around just in case so it doesn't run away from you.  Get some chocks once you set it in place.  The casters lock but the locking mechanism design is not good.
Title: Re: Forno Bravo Andiamo or Forno Classico Piccolo
Post by: mitchjg on July 04, 2012, 09:14:21 PM
Thanks for getting back to me again.  There is no incline.  The debate in placement:

if I put it against my garage wall, the trip from the kitchen is minimized.  However, I think I will need to pull it from the wall to protect paint on the wall and the 2 foot overhang from smoke.  So, that would be a "back and forth" for each move of several feet.

If I put it on the other end of the courtyard, the distance is greater but it is out of the way in the corner and is least obtrusive.  Of course if it really is going to just stay there, I can get the primavera.

Very helpful, thanks for the information.

- Mitch
Title: Re: Forno Bravo Andiamo or Forno Classico Piccolo
Post by: JConk007 on July 04, 2012, 10:21:58 PM
I like the forno Classico ggeta stand built look at what Flyboy4ual did  (and many others on the forum) nice stand large oven even if you have to get it delivered then  fabricate stand. If theres a will theres a way
yiou can even get a forklift and pout  it in your Garage!! aka  txcraig
John
Title: Re: Forno Bravo Andiamo or Forno Classico Piccolo
Post by: mitchjg on July 05, 2012, 05:14:20 PM
I am likely going to purchase the Andiamo from Forno Bravo.  A major reason is the fact that it can be moved on wheels fairly readily.   Moving it would otherwise require hiring several strong people and that, in itself, is a hassle.  There is no access for machinery such as a forklift.  

One last item to check in is the slope of my slate courtyard.  It has about a 2 degree slope in the area it is likely to go (actually 2 percent front / back and 2 percent left / right). It has to do with the very hilly area I live in and ensuring water would not head for the house (1/2 of which is on stilts!).

In order for it to be perfectly level, I would need to raise a corner around an inch.  I do not think it matters but I am asking the forno bravo rep to check with their technical folks.

Thanks and comments welcome.

- Mitch
Title: Re: Forno Bravo Andiamo or Forno Classico Piccolo
Post by: pizzaneer on July 05, 2012, 05:22:52 PM
Have you considered embedding some steel U-rail that the wheels could track in? Just level the rails carefully, and you won't have to worry about it rolling away or it being not 100% true.
Title: Re: Forno Bravo Andiamo or Forno Classico Piccolo
Post by: mitchjg on July 05, 2012, 05:33:21 PM
The slate courtyard is something I do not want to mess with. Technically it is a deck or a "bridge" from the street to my house. Major steel platform underneath with girders.  I do not want to be "invasive" in any way.
Title: Re: Forno Bravo Andiamo or Forno Classico Piccolo
Post by: pizzaneer on July 05, 2012, 05:36:13 PM
Understood - then your best recourse might be to add another course.  Raise the patio and embed the rails in one area, giving a multi-level effect (really nice for outdoor kitchen build).  

If that's too much effort, then you really should look closer at the permanent stand.
Title: Re: Forno Bravo Andiamo or Forno Classico Piccolo
Post by: mitchjg on July 05, 2012, 05:50:14 PM
Pizzaneer:

Help me understand the concern.  Is it that the wheels may not hold the oven in place?   I have been assuming the wheels lock and that I could somehow chock them.  2 percent slope does not seem like much ( unless I am on my road bike and feeling tired!)

Title: Re: Forno Bravo Andiamo or Forno Classico Piccolo
Post by: Woodfiredovenpizzero on July 05, 2012, 07:27:47 PM
Here re some pictures on how I placed my WFO:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13956.msg152129.html#msg152129

Edgar
Title: Re: Forno Bravo Andiamo or Forno Classico Piccolo
Post by: scott123 on July 06, 2012, 02:40:56 AM
Mitch, for what they're worth, here are my two cents.

Imo, if you are a Neapolitan pizza obsessive or plan on eventually being one, neither the Andiamo nor the Piccolo is the oven for you.  The dome heights on both of these ovens are egregiously high.  The height of the dome relates directly to the top/bottom heat ratio.  The higher the dome, the less top heat is generated and the harder it is to achieve the characteristic leoparding of Neapolitan pizza.

Fornographer has made some stunning pizzas, but I believe, with his oven, should he ever yearn for something a little more Neapolitan, something a bit more Craig-ish, he's going to hit a wall. Maybe he'll do one Craig quality pie in one night, but have trouble doing more than one at a time. Whatever the outcome, his oven won't ever match Craig's.

Now, I know it's a lot to expect for a $2Kish oven to act like a $15Kish oven, but, we're seeing $3Kish ovens with more Neapolitan-ish thermal dynamics that ARE acting like their $15Kish brethren- or at least showing a great deal of promise- nothing portable, so that might rule them out for you, personally, but I'd still like to share the information before you pull the trigger.
Title: Re: Forno Bravo Andiamo or Forno Classico Piccolo
Post by: mitchjg on July 06, 2012, 08:45:09 AM
Hi Scott123:

Thanks for telling me about this.  I did not know about the design or shape issues that created the temperature limitations which, in turn, limit the type of pizza.

I am surprised since I thought you needed temperatures of 800 or so for a Neapolitan and that these ovens are capable of delivering that level (including the dome).

BTW, after all is said and done the Andiamo will not be $2k'ish for me but closer to $4k'ish (the larger one + tax + shipping + tools).  So, moving to $3k'ish may not actually be such a huge leap.

Bigger than the money (which my family is already teasing the heck out of me for), is the portability and size.  My property is terribly limited for space, being on the steep terrain it is on.  So, my courtyard in front (which is really a superstructure deck) and back deck are it.

Are there a couple or few ovens you would point me to in order to assess viability?

Finally, I do not think I am a Neapolitan obsessive (at least yet, I am an obsessive in general).  I grew up with NY pizza and that became my standard before stumbling on pizza making.com when I started making pizza at home a couple of years ago.  I have a 2Stone pizza grill which has served me pretty well.  I get the top/bottom temps to about 700 and it turns out 12" great pies (although I do not know what style I would call them - NY?  Elite NY?, I model after Varasono's dough instructions).  I am thinking of moving on from the 2Stone because of the hassle factor of assembly/disassembly and some annoying rust that has developed in the structure. 

Thank you very much for the advice and please send more.  - Mitch
Title: Re: Forno Bravo Andiamo or Forno Classico Piccolo
Post by: BrickStoneOven on July 06, 2012, 09:21:45 AM
Hi Scott123:

Thanks for telling me about this.  I did not know about the design or shape issues that created the temperature limitations which, in turn, limit the type of pizza.

I am surprised since I thought you needed temperatures of 800 or so for a Neapolitan and that these ovens are capable of delivering that level (including the dome).
Does the temp matter, yes. But it's more about how that temp is used in the oven. The heat from the fire, wall, dome that is radiated and the heat circulation within the oven.

Like when you see those people who are making portable barrel vault ovens stating they are the best or whatever marketing gimmick they can come up with. Yet they have almost no thermal mass and nearly no insulation. I'm not an expert in oven dynamics but a barrel vault oven has as much circulation as a person who just had a heart attack. The purpose of a correctly constructed barrel vault is for beard baking. Because they have so much thermal mass that they can bake bread for hours on end with a consistent and constant temp.

I think the reason why Scott asked if you were a Neo obsessive was if that was the type of style you aiming to recreate because the oven will play a factor in that. Though temp is probably the key factor in what style you are making the oven also has to play a roll in that as well. If your going for a NY style I don't think the higher dome will play that much of an issue. But if your aiming for Neo then the higher dome will play a factor in the balance of heat between which side of the pizza gets finished first.

Omid got a Piccolo and I don't think he will have any issues with making great pizza.
Title: Re: Forno Bravo Andiamo or Forno Classico Piccolo
Post by: pizzaneer on July 06, 2012, 10:08:55 AM
Omid got a Piccolo and I don't think he will have any issues with making great pizza.

   Omid could probably bake a fantastic 120-second pie inside the hood of a black car going 150mph on a sunny day across the Bonneville Salt Flats.   

   You have to get a feel for the equipment... some people find that process very natural and intuitive, others have to use their pathetic, slow, trudging-through-the-numbers left-brain cognitive reasoning. 

And sometimes it just makes sense to get something easy to work with in the first place...
Title: Re: Forno Bravo Andiamo or Forno Classico Piccolo
Post by: mitchjg on July 06, 2012, 11:45:15 AM
Love it.  I am a trudge through the numbers type (and a math major to boot!).   :P

Having said that I am looking for something easy to work with. The hassle factor of installation combined with my space limitations is what sends me to the Andiamo. If I pull the trigger on it, I sure do hope it is easy to work with.   If not for the installation concerns, I would probably end up with the Piccolo. 

I may talk to a contractor that has worked on my house and seek his help on installation.

- Mitch
Title: Re: Forno Bravo Andiamo or Forno Classico Piccolo
Post by: BrickStoneOven on July 06, 2012, 03:05:10 PM
Love it.  I am a trudge through the numbers type (and a math major to boot!).   :P

Having said that I am looking for something easy to work with. The hassle factor of installation combined with my space limitations is what sends me to the Andiamo. If I pull the trigger on it, I sure do hope it is easy to work with.   If not for the installation concerns, I would probably end up with the Piccolo. 

I may talk to a contractor that has worked on my house and seek his help on installation.

- Mitch
Have you seen this thread yet? http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18632.0.html He's had great success.
Title: Re: Forno Bravo Andiamo or Forno Classico Piccolo
Post by: mitchjg on July 07, 2012, 09:16:43 PM
Have you seen this thread yet? http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18632.0.html He's had great success.

Sure have.  It looks like his pizzas got better and better and better,.........

Now, my worry train has really sped up.  My wife came home last night pointing out to me that a neighbor has a pizza oven and the amount of smoke was incredible.  She is afraid I will do the same.  From all I have read here, you get smoke in the first 10 minutes or so and then it goes to minimal.  If true, that is better than when I get my smoker ready for barbecue.  But, it definitely a new one - she has moved from "get it if you want it" to "are you nuts?!, look at the crazy smoke you will make!"

Title: Re: Forno Bravo Andiamo or Forno Classico Piccolo
Post by: pizzaneer on July 07, 2012, 09:40:09 PM
Sounds like your neighbor could use some help... you'll only get smoke until the combustion temp gets high enough to burn off the gases.  That said, he could be burning green wood...
Title: Re: Forno Bravo Andiamo or Forno Classico Piccolo
Post by: BrickStoneOven on July 08, 2012, 10:13:11 AM
That said, he could be burning green wood...
This.


The only time I've seen huge amounts of smoke are either when it rains and I forget to empty out the bucket with the fire starting wood. Other times it's when you start the initial fire to "big", as in using to much wood. Or if you add wood to soon before the fire has burnt through that "smoke" phase of the fire. Personally as a rule of thumb, I wait about 30-40 minutes for the first fire to burn down. Then every 10-15 minutes or so I'll add more wood until I reach the target temp I'm looking for. Usually it takes somewhere around 2.5-3 hours before I get the oven fully saturated to the target temp I need. But for a smaller oven like those two it would probably take about half that time.

Honestly if you use common sense the initial start up smoke only lasts about 10-20 minutes depending on how seasoned your wood is and if you've built the fire correctly that first start up wont create too much smoke.
Title: Re: Forno Bravo Andiamo or Forno Classico Piccolo
Post by: mitchjg on July 08, 2012, 10:36:47 PM
Mitch, for what they're worth, here are my two cents.

Imo, if you are a Neapolitan pizza obsessive or plan on eventually being one, neither the Andiamo nor the Piccolo is the oven for you.  The dome heights on both of these ovens are egregiously high.  The height of the dome relates directly to the top/bottom heat ratio.  The higher the dome, the less top heat is generated and the harder it is to achieve the characteristic leoparding of Neapolitan pizza.

Fornographer has made some stunning pizzas, but I believe, with his oven, should he ever yearn for something a little more Neapolitan, something a bit more Craig-ish, he's going to hit a wall. Maybe he'll do one Craig quality pie in one night, but have trouble doing more than one at a time. Whatever the outcome, his oven won't ever match Craig's.

Now, I know it's a lot to expect for a $2Kish oven to act like a $15Kish oven, but, we're seeing $3Kish ovens with more Neapolitan-ish thermal dynamics that ARE acting like their $15Kish brethren- or at least showing a great deal of promise- nothing portable, so that might rule them out for you, personally, but I'd still like to share the information before you pull the trigger.

Scott:

I think I understand the gist of the physics you are describing.  And, by the time all is said and done with an Andiamo, it is close to 4k.  Are there any smallish ovens in the 3k range you could recommend?  I have no handyman/mason ability at all (and not the time either) and would need to hire someone to help me out. 

thanks a lot.
Title: Re: Forno Bravo Andiamo or Forno Classico Piccolo
Post by: scott123 on July 10, 2012, 12:07:20 PM
Mitch, it seems like you're in a somewhat similar camp to Italdream, although I think portability is more important to you and I think you have a little less DIY inclination. These threads have been running concurrently, but, because Italdream is more of a confirmed Neapolitan pizza obsessive, I've shared more of my thoughts in his thread.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,19857.0.html

If you haven't already, read this discussion.  It covers all the sub $3K options.
Title: Re: Forno Bravo Andiamo or Forno Classico Piccolo
Post by: mitchjg on July 15, 2012, 08:11:22 PM
Well, to overcome my novice knowledge and try to make the best possible decision, I have been reading the thread Scott123 referred me to, many other threads and various websites.

In reviewing my constraints, I decided I must have wheels (store the oven day to day against the garage wall, roll it out to the middle of the courtyard when using) and cannot go too big for both product availability reasons and space reasons.

It looks like three choices: a Roundboy oven, Forno Bravo Andiamo, or the FGM 700C from Bread Stone Ovens.  The costs, including shipping and tax, are approximately 2500, 3500 and 4500.  So, what to do?

From what I can tell (and please tell me if i am off), the Roundboy looks of reasonable dimensions of floor, height, door height, etc and certainly is the most cost effective.  It does require assembly, but the assembly looks idiot proof (and I am an assembly idiot).  But, given the price, etc., I am wondering about "if it is too good to be true, then it isn't"

The Andiamo looks like a great compromise of the various parameters, but in reading Scott 123's comments, the dome height may be too much? 

And the FB 700C has a lower dome height so long as I do not get the raised version and may be the best design in size and quality.

I very much welcome comments from you guys with more expertise than me and with any experience with the ovens themselves to help me make the best decision.

thanks!
Title: Re: Forno Bravo Andiamo or Forno Classico Piccolo
Post by: communist on July 15, 2012, 08:50:08 PM
i am interested in neo now, and took a drive to look at the round boy, which is made about 20 miles from me.  Boy, it looked small and cheesy.  just a gut reaction.  my wife agreed.  i was not excited about it.  i need some  neo fans on the forum to get excited about it - i have seen rookie enthusiasm, but no read solid pics or experience.  mark
Title: Re: Forno Bravo Andiamo or Forno Classico Piccolo
Post by: scott123 on July 15, 2012, 08:59:54 PM
i am interested in neo now

Say it isn't so, Mark. Are we losing you to the 'charred' side?

Seriously, though, out of these three ovens, I'm most dubious of the Roundboy.

Mitch, is the 700C really a thousand more than the Andiamo?  My gut feeling is that it is probably worth the extra thousand, but, I can't recommend it until we get more feedback from someone who's purchased it and used it.  If you HAVE to pull the trigger now, and it HAS to roll on wheels, then I think the Andiamo is your best bet.

Title: Re: Forno Bravo Andiamo or Forno Classico Piccolo
Post by: mitchjg on July 16, 2012, 03:19:12 AM
Scott:

Thanks for the help - much appreciated.  I do not have a deadline to buy and I can take more time.  Of course, after all the research and looking, it seems like the next step is in front of me.  The courtyard is such that the oven would be against the garage that has a roof overhang or against a fence.  Between the two, I could live with it against the fence if I had to get one without wheels.  I have not checked, but I would think the city would object to it being permanently adjacent to the wooden fence.  Does that sound safe?  And if it was, and I ditched the idea of wheels would there be another suggestion?

Regarding the FGM. it sounds iike you are saying you probably would prefer the design and construction but there is a lack of references.  So, it is a bit of a gamble there.

I guess I will ponder a bit more but the choices seem about as clear as they are going to be for the moment.

thanks again - Mitch
Title: Re: Forno Bravo Andiamo or Forno Classico Piccolo
Post by: dellavecchia on July 16, 2012, 07:52:20 AM
The Andiamo dome height is not an issue for Neapolitan pizza. The only issue I have with my Primavera 70, which is the same as the Andiamo 70, is that I wish I had enough room for two pies at once. Dome height is less of an issue (if an issue at all) when the oven is smaller in diameter since the pies are so close to the flames. Here are some examples of what I get out of the FB oven:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,19928.0.html

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,19526.msg192154.html#msg192154

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,16918.msg164871.html#msg164871

John
Title: Re: Forno Bravo Andiamo or Forno Classico Piccolo
Post by: scott123 on July 16, 2012, 04:49:15 PM
John, respectfully, you make some of the best looking Neapolitan pizzas on the forum, but my feelings about oven selection relate less to making beautiful Neapolitan pizza and more to making it in the easiest and most optimized manner. When it comes to optimal conditions for Neapolitan pizza, dome heights matter, imo.

Mitch, the topic of town inspectors came up in the other thread.  Some members were for getting a permit, some against.  I'm in the against category.  While inspectors can play an important role in ensuring safety, I really don't see an oven kit, even if put together poorly, ever being more dangerous than a grill, and I'd never get a permit for a grill.  People put grills next to wooden structures all the time.  Unfortunately, if you talk to the city, there's a good chance they'll make a distinction between a WFO and a grill and make a bit stink about the number of feet of clearance you'll need.

This might end up biting me the butt eventually, but, for WFOs, I don't talk to the city.
Title: Re: Forno Bravo Andiamo or Forno Classico Piccolo
Post by: mitchjg on July 16, 2012, 07:18:18 PM
I may make a call to the city, namelessly, or ask the contractor that has done work on my house to ask for me.  I am wanting to assume that the portable nature of the who on wheels makes it clear that there is no actual installation.  Operation of course is still something I cannot argue with but I would think it would narrow the area of contention should there be any.
Title: Re: Forno Bravo Andiamo or Forno Classico Piccolo
Post by: fornographer on July 16, 2012, 07:22:15 PM
The Andiamo dome height is not an issue for Neapolitan pizza. The only issue I have with my Primavera 70, which is the same as the Andiamo 70, is that I wish I had enough room for two pies at once. Dome height is less of an issue (if an issue at all) when the oven is smaller in diameter since the pies are so close to the flames. Here are some examples of what I get out of the FB oven:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,19928.0.html

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,19526.msg192154.html#msg192154

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,16918.msg164871.html#msg164871

John

John is right.  I could not discern, thanks to the pizzaiolos (they're friendly once you tell them you're an enthusiast and make your own pies in your own wfo) who let me check their ovens out with their infrared guns, a difference in the ratio between floor and dome heat between the smaller ovens (Andiamo) and the larger ones at the professional outfits in town. Those are Acuntos and Ferrara ovens that I checked out.  The main difference that I could discern is the distance between the pies and the fire as John said.  Then again one outfit was cooking their pies very close to the flame which is almost similar to the distance that you would expect from the Andiamo 70 or the Primavera 70.  If you want the leoparding that a lot of these bigger ovens have, having a long ferment (more than 24 hrs) and a flame that covers the entire span of the dome from the left to the right will do it.  Craig recently suggested that having a cool dough might help--I will try this on my next bake.

The bigger ovens obviously have more thermal mass and that might make them more manageable when cooking a large volume of pies.  The most pies I have cooked out of the Andiamo was 12 and it can get quite interesting in managing the floor heat but it's just another fun skill to learn in addition to make a proper dough.

Until I get a chance to cook my dough in an Acunto or a Ferrara, I do not believe that the bigger ovens will make a significantly better pizza than the oven I am working with now.  I think with my current oven, with more practice and experience, I can come within striking distance, equal or maybe even surpass some of the outfits here in Atlanta that have WFOs.  I think I may have already surpassed the dough of one outfit in downtown Decatur that uses the same model Acunto as Craig is using.  Just to be clear, Craig and the Acunto are the perfect storm. Combine a master with the dough and ingredients and that oven and we see the consistently great pies on his posts.  

However I have to say that I feel that the wall that Scott is suggesting that I will hit is just something like the Maginot Line ;)  

Go ahead and purchase the oven that you think is right for you and start learning.  





Title: Re: Forno Bravo Andiamo or Forno Classico Piccolo
Post by: fornographer on July 16, 2012, 07:54:11 PM
And these are the breakfast pizzas I cooked for my 8 month pregnant wife this past weekend.

Title: Re: Forno Bravo Andiamo or Forno Classico Piccolo
Post by: scott123 on July 16, 2012, 08:25:27 PM
I could not discern, thanks to the pizzaiolos (they're friendly once you tell them you're an enthusiast and make your own pies in your own wfo) who let me check their ovens out with their infrared guns, a difference in the ratio between floor and dome heat between the smaller ovens (Andiamo) and the larger ones at the professional outfits in town.

It's not about temperature, it's about distance. When you halve the distance, you double the impact from infrared radiation (heat coming off the dome).
Title: Re: Forno Bravo Andiamo or Forno Classico Piccolo
Post by: scott123 on July 16, 2012, 08:39:07 PM
I may make a call to the city, namelessly, or ask the contractor that has done work on my house to ask for me.

Smart move- find out what the code says, but stay anonymous.

My grandfather was a union boss and later, a state senator, so when it comes to government officials, I have a hard time not being a bit wary.  I've also read through parts of the code that had less to do with safety and more to do with a particular company's product being ensured the market share or appeasing insurance companies. I also believe that code can frequently be heavy handed in order to counter the actions of a very small group of especially stupid people.

As far as I'm concerned, if you use your head, you generally don't need a building inspector- and especially not for little stuff like this.
Title: Re: Forno Bravo Andiamo or Forno Classico Piccolo
Post by: shuboyje on July 16, 2012, 10:41:00 PM
John is right.  I could not discern, thanks to the pizzaiolos (they're friendly once you tell them you're an enthusiast and make your own pies in your own wfo) who let me check their ovens out with their infrared guns, a difference in the ratio between floor and dome heat between the smaller ovens (Andiamo) and the larger ones at the professional outfits in town. Those are Acuntos and Ferrara ovens that I checked out.  The main difference that I could discern is the distance between the pies and the fire as John said.  Then again one outfit was cooking their pies very close to the flame which is almost similar to the distance that you would expect from the Andiamo 70 or the Primavera 70.  If you want the leoparding that a lot of these bigger ovens have, having a long ferment (more than 24 hrs) and a flame that covers the entire span of the dome from the left to the right will do it.  Craig recently suggested that having a cool dough might help--I will try this on my next bake.

The bigger ovens obviously have more thermal mass and that might make them more manageable when cooking a large volume of pies.  The most pies I have cooked out of the Andiamo was 12 and it can get quite interesting in managing the floor heat but it's just another fun skill to learn in addition to make a proper dough.

Until I get a chance to cook my dough in an Acunto or a Ferrara, I do not believe that the bigger ovens will make a significantly better pizza than the oven I am working with now.  I think with my current oven, with more practice and experience, I can come within striking distance, equal or maybe even surpass some of the outfits here in Atlanta that have WFOs.  I think I may have already surpassed the dough of one outfit in downtown Decatur that uses the same model Acunto as Craig is using.  Just to be clear, Craig and the Acunto are the perfect storm. Combine a master with the dough and ingredients and that oven and we see the consistently great pies on his posts.  

However I have to say that I feel that the wall that Scott is suggesting that I will hit is just something like the Maginot Line ;)  

Go ahead and purchase the oven that you think is right for you and start learning.  







I have built a 30" and a 42" version of nearly the same oven.  Both with domes around 13", doors around 8", a tall soldier and a flat dome.  I built the 42" oven due to my frustrations with the 30".  I can now say without a doubt the 42" oven produces a better pie then the 30" in every way.  It is so much easier to bake in and achieve a consistent even bake in it is like night and day. 
Title: Re: Forno Bravo Andiamo or Forno Classico Piccolo
Post by: mikeyr on July 20, 2012, 07:13:42 PM
I know the thread is a few weeks old but you may want to drive down to Santa Barbara and talk to Forno Classico and see the ovens.  They are pretty nice ovens, I would questions wheels on th Picollo just due to the weight on top of a fairly narrow stand that might be tippy but Giuseppe has done it.

 I have his bigger oven the 100 so I was not concerned about moving it :)
Title: Re: Forno Bravo Andiamo or Forno Classico Piccolo
Post by: mitchjg on July 20, 2012, 10:39:13 PM
I know the thread is a few weeks old but you may want to drive down to Santa Barbara and talk to Forno Classico and see the ovens.  They are pretty nice ovens, I would questions wheels on th Picollo just due to the weight on top of a fairly narrow stand that might be tippy but Giuseppe has done it.

 I have his bigger oven the 100 so I was not concerned about moving it :)

I had definitely considered that.  But, I wrote a note to ask if they would be on wheels for me.  Giuseppe responded: "The Piccolo  is a heavy duty oven and with the stand weighs around around 600 lbs.  For this reason, we do not provide or recommend wheels."

So, I don't think I can work with it.

Thanks for trying to help.

- Mitch
Title: Re: Forno Bravo Andiamo or Forno Classico Piccolo
Post by: BrickStoneOven on July 21, 2012, 06:22:17 PM
I don't see why they couldn't put it on a stand with wheels. Mine was and it was probably in the 1200lbs range.
Title: Re: Forno Bravo Andiamo or Forno Classico Piccolo
Post by: dellavecchia on July 21, 2012, 07:35:46 PM
But, I wrote a note to ask if they would be on wheels for me.  Giuseppe responded: "The Piccolo  is a heavy duty oven and with the stand weighs around around 600 lbs.  For this reason, we do not provide or recommend wheels."

Stefano Ferrara ovens weigh 4000lbs and they come on wheels.

John
Title: Re: Forno Bravo Andiamo or Forno Classico Piccolo
Post by: shuboyje on July 22, 2012, 12:57:03 AM
My oven weighs around 3000 pounds and is also on wheels.  I did however design the stand with special considerations.  I made the "wheelbase" as wide as possible and used very high grade industrial casters rated for the load.  I also eliminated the concrete slab by building on a very rigid metal base saving over 1000 pounds of weight.  This all resulted in an oven I can move by myself rather easily.
Title: Re: Forno Bravo Andiamo or Forno Classico Piccolo
Post by: mitchjg on July 22, 2012, 05:26:58 PM
Hi All:

I am still comparing the Forno Bravo Andiamo vs. the FGM 700C.  From what I am learning the 700C is made tougher, stronger, better.  The wall and floor are 3 inch vs 2 inch, the door is insulated and a few other things that were pointed out.

IF I get the FGM (which is where I am leaning) I am still confused about the raised floor option.  Scott123 pointed out that the door height for the 700C seemed way to high relative to the dome height.  If I get the raised option the dome will be higher but the door relative to the dome will be improved.

If I understand the comments made by Scott, although neither is perfect, I would be better off with the lower dome.  That way the inside height is about 8 1/2 and the door the same, vs. an inside height of 11 1/2 with a door of 8 1/2 (assuming I am reading the specs right).

I would not be able to have as much versatility for non-pizza cooking with the lower one but I do not have a sense as to how important 8 1/2 vs 11 1/2 is for non-pizza. 

All comments and guidance welcome.  You people are great and I have very much appreciated your helpfulness.

- Mitch
Title: Re: Forno Bravo Andiamo or Forno Classico Piccolo
Post by: BrickStoneOven on July 22, 2012, 06:14:57 PM
You don't need the raised floor. The stock 11.5" dome is fine, I don't know where people are getting the idea of having the lowest dome possible is best and that 9" is perfect. Is a low dome important for Neapolitan pizza, yes, but to a certain extent. Look at any hand built Neapolitan oven their dome heights adjust depending on the diameter. There isn't just one height fits all.

The dome in my WFO is ~12.4" which is just about perfect for my size(~42"), the fact that the 700c is lower and smaller shows that FGM knows what they are doing. The diameter of the oven is going to be indicative to the dome height. Like Craig's oven, bigger diameter, higher dome, relative to the size.

It's not like Wood Stones with 47" ovens with 20"+ domes. Those things IMO are horrible along with Mugnaini/Valoriani ovens.
Title: Re: Forno Bravo Andiamo or Forno Classico Piccolo
Post by: Woodfiredovenpizzero on July 22, 2012, 09:49:04 PM
Giuseppe wont recommend wheels because of liability issues but you can use scaffold wheels, they are rated for more that a couple thousand pounds.
Title: Re: Forno Bravo Andiamo or Forno Classico Piccolo
Post by: Mangia Pizza on July 25, 2012, 11:18:57 AM
FWIW, I just received my Forno Piccolo and been using it for a week.

I am very happy with the experience of talking to Giuseppe, the custom details he did for me and the overall experience I have had making pizze napoletane.

Good luck with your choice......

Paolo
Title: Re: Forno Bravo Andiamo or Forno Classico Piccolo
Post by: scott123 on July 26, 2012, 02:51:45 AM
I don't know where people are getting the idea of having the lowest dome possible is best and that 9" is perfect.

I've been the one spreading that idea.  It was a knee jerk reaction from finally seeing a pre-fab oven (the FGM) with a low dome and, after seeing so many ovens with top/bottom heat issues, making the assumption that if low is good, then really low is better. I've since toned back my 9" cheerleading.  I like 9" and still recommend it, but until I see more results with 9", there's no reason why 12" can't perform just as well, if not better, in an oven of the appropriate diameter.

Mitch, if the higher dome gives you more versatility, go for it.
Title: Re: Forno Bravo Andiamo or Forno Classico Piccolo
Post by: mitchjg on July 29, 2012, 04:05:22 PM
For what it is worth, I got more specifics from Antoine about the FGM.  In the standard one, the door height is 8 1/2 inches and the interior dome height is 9.8.  The raised floor option, makes it and 11 1/2 door height and an interior dome height of 12.8.

I have decided to go ahead with the FGM but I am still (terribly) indecisive about the raised option.

I think the pros of the standard height are: a bit shorter heating time, a bit less wood, potential for greater ease in even cooking at high temps, less money.

I think the pros of the raised height is: more versatility of what can be cooked (taller things through the door).  My tallest dutch oven is 8.0.  It seems like it would be about things like a large turkey, a tagine, beer can chicken, other taller things one may imagine.

 :'(  ???
Title: Re: Forno Bravo Andiamo or Forno Classico Piccolo
Post by: RobynB on July 29, 2012, 06:53:59 PM
Quote
It seems like it would be about things like a large turkey, a tagine, beer can chicken, other taller things one may imagine.

Specifically addressing your items:  I have the standard height 950 FGM, and I don't know if the extra 3" will give you enough height to make a significant difference for anything you just mentioned.  Maybe beer can chicken, I'm not real familiar with that.  A large turkey in a pan is taller than 12.8" in my experience and getting it through the door would definitely be a challenge, width-wise as well as height - and then managing it while it cooks will be tricky.  What's the width on the door on the smaller oven that you're looking at?  Because you'd need to get the turkey in roasting pan in through the door, and the door is going to be narrower as well as shorter than the inside of the oven.  And I guess it would depend on the tagine but I think you'd be tight even in the taller oven.  The two I just looked at on Amazon, you could probably fit the Emile Henry tagine but I'm not sure about the Le Creuset one. 

By the same token, I'm not sure you're sacrificing that much for Neapolitan pizza if you go with the taller oven.  I haven't cooked in the taller FGM but I have cooked in an Italian oven with a much higher ceiling and bigger opening than the FGM and it cooked beautifully.  It's a management issue more than a good/bad issue for a household oven, IMHO.  You're not putting in a restaurant oven that has to perform at maximum efficiency for a multitude of users, you can spend a little more time managing it if you need to, and you'll learn your own oven and how best to cook in it, and that trade-off for the versatility of the taller oven may be justified for you.  When we bought ours, we didn't have the taller option available so it was an easy decision.  If we had had to choose, I'm not sure we wouldn't have opted for the taller oven.  It would be nice to have, and my 950 is so efficient, I can't imagine loosing that much with the taller/bigger opening. 

I haven't gone back through this thread - have you looked at either actual oven in person?  I think that would really help, it's very hard to imagine the size without seeing it in reality. 
Title: Re: Forno Bravo Andiamo or Forno Classico Piccolo
Post by: mitchjg on July 29, 2012, 08:49:21 PM
Specifically addressing your items:  I have the standard height 950 FGM, and I don't know if the extra 3" will give you enough height to make a significant difference for anything you just mentioned.  Maybe beer can chicken, I'm not real familiar with that.  A large turkey in a pan is taller than 12.8" in my experience and getting it through the door would definitely be a challenge, width-wise as well as height - and then managing it while it cooks will be tricky.  What's the width on the door on the smaller oven that you're looking at?  Because you'd need to get the turkey in roasting pan in through the door, and the door is going to be narrower as well as shorter than the inside of the oven.  And I guess it would depend on the tagine but I think you'd be tight even in the taller oven.  The two I just looked at on Amazon, you could probably fit the Emile Henry tagine but I'm not sure about the Le Creuset one. 

By the same token, I'm not sure you're sacrificing that much for Neapolitan pizza if you go with the taller oven.  I haven't cooked in the taller FGM but I have cooked in an Italian oven with a much higher ceiling and bigger opening than the FGM and it cooked beautifully.  It's a management issue more than a good/bad issue for a household oven, IMHO.  You're not putting in a restaurant oven that has to perform at maximum efficiency for a multitude of users, you can spend a little more time managing it if you need to, and you'll learn your own oven and how best to cook in it, and that trade-off for the versatility of the taller oven may be justified for you.  When we bought ours, we didn't have the taller option available so it was an easy decision.  If we had had to choose, I'm not sure we wouldn't have opted for the taller oven.  It would be nice to have, and my 950 is so efficient, I can't imagine loosing that much with the taller/bigger opening. 

I haven't gone back through this thread - have you looked at either actual oven in person?  I think that would really help, it's very hard to imagine the size without seeing it in reality. 

Hi Robyn:

The door size in the 700c is 17 X 8 1/2.  The interior max height is 9.8 inches.  From the website for Bread Stone Ovens, the dimensions of your 950C are:

Weight 925 lb
Total Height   16″
Inside Height 9″1/2
Cooking Surface 7.5 square feet
Wall Thickness 3″1/8
Door Opening   17″ wide x 8″1/2 high or 11"1/2 high with the raised option

So, the door dimensions are the same and the interior max height is the same.  Although the height is the same yours is much bigger 7.5 square feet of cooking area vs 4.0.  So, I can imagine that the interior height of the 700c is drops down faster, etc.

So, assuming your door measures this way - 17 X 8 1/2, then you can say if you have ever felt restricted by that!

No, I have not seen them in person.  I am in California and the oven is on the east coast.

- Mitch
Title: Re: Forno Bravo Andiamo or Forno Classico Piccolo
Post by: RobynB on July 29, 2012, 09:01:31 PM
I just sent you a message  ;D
Title: I pulled the trigger!
Post by: mitchjg on August 02, 2012, 10:37:07 PM
After significant research, inquiry and hand wringing, I made my decision.  I have contracted for the FGM 700C from Bread Stone Ovens.  I went for the raised option.   My thinking was that it will give me more flexibility over time to cook non-pizza items (heresy?) and make it more generally useful in the house and maybe give me a little more "elbow room." 

Antoine is custom building a stand on wheels for me as well as some decorative slate around the opening to match my courtyard.  He is also customizing a little stand for tools that will integrate with the oven.  It should ship in around 10 days or so.

Thanks to each of you for all of the opinions, feedback and guidance - very much appreciated.

Now, I have to wait............................... :o

- Mitch
Title: Re: Forno Bravo Andiamo or Forno Classico Piccolo
Post by: pizzaneer on August 04, 2012, 02:33:23 PM
Congrats!

Can't wait to see your pics of the installation, I'm sure it will be beautiful.
Title: Re: I pulled the trigger!
Post by: cuznvin on August 11, 2012, 11:35:49 AM
After significant research, inquiry and hand wringing, I made my decision.  I have contracted for the FGM 700C from Bread Stone Ovens.  I went for the raised option.   My thinking was that it will give me more flexibility over time to cook non-pizza items (heresy?) and make it more generally useful in the house and maybe give me a little more "elbow room." 

Antoine is custom building a stand on wheels for me as well as some decorative slate around the opening to match my courtyard.  He is also customizing a little stand for tools that will integrate with the oven.  It should ship in around 10 days or so.

Thanks to each of you for all of the opinions, feedback and guidance - very much appreciated.

Now, I have to wait............................... :o

- Mitch

This thread has been very helpful to me. I am also leaning towards the FGM, probably the 950. Would love to see pictures of yours as soon as you get it!! Thanks!
Title: Re: Forno Bravo Andiamo or Forno Classico Piccolo
Post by: JConk007 on August 12, 2012, 05:28:21 PM
I will be cooking in the FGM 950 (standard) in 2 weeks for a proud new  owner
Bringing 75 pizzas and will post reviews. I recommended this oven and he went with it
Hope it cooks as good as it looks they are sweet!
John