How does California style dough differ from others?

[stamina888]

I've heard about the toppings, but what about the dough?

What range of hydration %?

Does it use ~2% salt and ~2% sugar like other styles of dough do?

How much oil?

Does it prefer longer/shorter ferments?  Or does it basically not matter as long as the end

Baking temperature and time? 

Are there any other differences in technique, or aesthetic choices or the way its baked?

[Pete-zza]

stamina888,

You might want to read the post at Reply 1 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=55765.msg561457#msg561457

Peter

[stamina888]

There's a lot of links here.  I'm assuming the recipe from recipegoldmine is what I'm looking for?

http://web.archive.org/web/20080220132803/http://www.recipegoldmine.com/ccc/california-pizza-basic-pizza-dough.html

This recipe isn't the most scientific.  It uses volume rather than mass.  It doesn't specify which kind of yeast.  And everything being used in exact teaspoon and tablespoon seems more for convenience rather than precision, but I'll roll with it.

I'm doing the math in reverse in Lehmann's calculator.  I change the % in the calculator until it matches what the recipe calls for.  The recipe is for 2 9-inch dough balls.  I'll cut the ingredients in half for 1.  I don't feel like doing the geometry of how big the pie would be if both dough balls were combined together, so I just cut the ingredients in half for 1. 

This is what I have.

* Water - 59%  (2.25 oz = 1/4 cup + 1.5 tsp)
* IDY - 1.45%  (0.5 tsp)
* Salt - 2.7%  (0.5 tsp)
* Sugar - 3.82%  (1 tsp)
* Oil - 4%  (1.5 tsp)

Seems like a New York pizza dough, but more sugary and oily. 

The recipe allows either bread flour or all purpose flour.  Does which flour you use affect the hydration, baking temperature/time that are needed at all?

[jsobolew]

As far as I understand, it's mostly about emphasis on non-traditional, "gourmet" toppings and organic, locally sourced ingredients. The crust doesn't seem too different than typical American style.

[stamina888]

If that is true, imo, that's not enough to constitute it as a different pizza.  There would have to be some fundamental difference in the dough, or how the pizza is cooked.  Otherwise, its just an ny or american pizza but with toppings

[Fiorot]

You only knead to the left.

[Quebert]

As far as I understand, it's mostly about emphasis on non-traditional, "gourmet" toppings and organic, locally sourced ingredients. The crust doesn't seem too different than typical American style.

don't forget the flour that's made from home grown grains and hand milled by a vegan hippy using the same grain mill their great grandma used in 1905.

[jsobolew]

If that is true, imo, that's not enough to constitute it as a different pizza.  There would have to be some fundamental difference in the dough, or how the pizza is cooked.  Otherwise, its just an ny or american pizza but with toppings

That might be true to some extent but I think if a New Yorker had a salmon and caviar pizza from an upscale restaurant in California, they would probably tell you that's not pizza to them.

[Pizza_Not_War]

California pizza dough seems to be (as defined elsewhere) a mix of Neo & NY styles. Even when living in California I rarely had it. Much preferred to seek out places approximating NY style.

Salmon on pizza isn't bad, with some capers & onions. I've made a few of those in my time. Fish goes on at the end of the bake.

[StateofMind]

I’ve been told I’m one of those California style pizza makers. I’ve never loved labels but I agree that CA style is often a mix of NYC and Neo dough. Lots of people who pioneered the style have a background in bread baking so you see bread techniques employed in a lot of their doughs. However at the end of the day the style (if it exists) is defined by its use of seasonal and interesting toppings.

[Dimitri]

As someone who's born and raised in San Francisco, I'd like to say that I AGREE with the sentiment that there is no California style dough. At least, there is not SINGLE style of California dough.

There are plenty of experimental pizzas in California, and some are better than others. But even the ones I didn't care fore, I still appreciate for the care that goes behind their creation.

In terms of toppings, I do think there's a definite California pizza style. It was born in Berkeley, CA, by Alice Waters. It stems from a philosophy of using fresh, high quality, organic, seasonal, locally-sourced ingredients.

Some of my favorite so-called California style crust pizzas include Gialina's and PizzaHacker: both in San Francisco. Both very different. But both very much California style, in my eyes. There are others too. Plenty of others. But those are my top 2.

[PizzaJason]

To me,  california style pizza dough, is chewy, with a crisp edge, with large crust.  Crust is often brushed with seasoning so it becomes something of its own, while the center of the slice is softer and carries the toppings.

Best way Ive found to produce this kind of crust is with a sourdough yeast.  Makes sense that many of the pizza makers also use bread style doughs.  Id think any bread maker / baker in california would have to master sourdough.   Im not from Cali though.

[scott r]

As someone who's born and raised in San Francisco, I'd like to say that I AGREE with the organic, seasonal, locally-sourced ingredients.

Some of my favorite so-called California style crust pizzas include Gialina's and PizzaHacker: both in San Francisco. Both very different. But both very much California style, in my eyes. There are others too. Plenty of others. But those are my top 2.

So bummed I missed gialina's, but I have had pizza hacker and is GREAT.  Super crispy FLAVOR BOMBS.   You guys are stepping up the west coast game over there!

[Dimitri]

So bummed I missed gialina's, but I have had pizza hacker and is GREAT.  Super crispy FLAVOR BOMBS.   You guys are stepping up the west coast game over there!

Thanks man. I'm sure Jeff (the pizza hacker) would love to hear that. Maybe he'll do a google search one day and find this thread

I've worked with Jeff's dough in the past in his franken-weber (at one of his street food gigs), and in a pizza party at my house. I like it. He uses whole wheat, which was surprising when he told me, as his dough has plenty of rise. He also likes to put salt on the outer rim (before baking) and olive oil on the outer rim (after it comes out of the oven). I liked the flavor so much that I've done it to my pies ever since.

[scott r]

He deserves lots of love.   The majority of pizzerias in NY would die for that pie.  When I was there it a well executed Tartine style dough with seriously flavorful toppings baked at about 5 minutes.

[JT2020SD]

Californian here - the CPK/Spago style pizza is probably either NYC style, or a Neo-Neapolitan (using bread flour instead of 00 flour). I seem to recall that Wolfgang Puck's original intent with Spago was to bring Neapolitan pizza to California. CPK sort of followed suit. But the style is thin crust, and weird (for pizza) toppings. That's really about it.

[Bengoshi]

I seem to recall that Wolfgang Puck's original intent with Spago was to bring Neapolitan pizza to California. CPK sort of followed suit. But the style is thin crust, and weird (for pizza) toppings. That's really about it.

Interesting note, as my wife’s dad Jay Heminway was there at the genesis — Puck actually copied Waters at Chez Panisse, not the other way around.  According to the Alice Waters bio (McNamee pg 158) Puck saw the CP oven at the cafe in 1980 and decided he also wanted to do pizza at Spago and he used the same German oven maker as Waters.  Alice herself had been inspired to do pizza in Italy after Jay took her to Torino on a road trip — she became fascinated by the wood fired oven at a Napolitano place (lots of Napolitanos in Turin where many moved to make Fiats).   Alice loved it and decided to do pizza at the CP cafe — so at least the original “inspiration” for the “California Pie” was indeed Naples (via Turin), as you suggest, not NYC.  (McNamee 146-149).

I’m no historian, I’ve just heard this story told for years by Jay at Green & Red Vineyard, which makes the special house Zinfandel for Chez Panisse, and from Alice.  I always got a kick out of the thought that my wife’s dad was there at the birth of the Cali-Pie.

[politon]

In this video shot at Spago, Puck says that the dough is comprised of flour, water, yeast, salt, olive oil, and honey. He also expresses his disdain for NY pizza and Chicago deep dish, "They all taste like crap to me, I never liked them!" 

[Pizzailolz]

I'm in southern Cali and it's the melting pot of all styles of pizza. Both traditional and exotic.

[Pizza-Face]

Holy necro thread Batman!