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Author Topic: Wood Vs Gas installation and maintenance  (Read 2387 times)

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Offline LaGaby

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Wood Vs Gas installation and maintenance
« on: February 19, 2021, 03:49:36 PM »
Hi everyone,
I am wondering if anyone has any information regarding the installation and maintenance differences between gas and wood?

I'm still undecided whether to go for gas or wood, I am leaning towards gas for convenience and consistency. However my decision could be swayed by the difference in start up costs, running costs and maintenance costs.

In an ideal situation I would love a combination, but I have been told the installation for such a system would be expensive and potentially problematic.

I have pictures if you need to visualise the space.

Hoping to hear from you guys, this is my first restaurant so all very new and confusing   ???

Offline waltertore

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Re: Wood Vs Gas installation and maintenance
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2021, 06:33:16 PM »
I would be on the line of  I am making "this type" of pizza and putting in the best oven type regardless of cost.   I come from the  camp of  - make the pizza I love and thus need that type of oven to get there. 
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Offline LaGaby

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Re: Wood Vs Gas installation and maintenance
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2021, 01:05:19 AM »
Hi waltertore,
Thanks for your response.

I see what you're getting at there but what if you took away the pizza side of things? I have chosen the Acunto Napoli oven so either wood or gas, I believe it will make fantastic pizzas (depending on my dough of course). At the moment I'm really just looking into the potential complications with a gas type flue compared to a wood type

Offline Yael

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Re: Wood Vs Gas installation and maintenance
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2021, 02:35:36 AM »
Hi waltertore,
Thanks for your response.

I see what you're getting at there but what if you took away the pizza side of things? I have chosen the Acunto Napoli oven so either wood or gas, I believe it will make fantastic pizzas (depending on my dough of course). At the moment I'm really just looking into the potential complications with a gas type flue compared to a wood type


Well, one thing that could be worth taking under consideration is that you might be able to choose gas or wood in a gas oven, but only wood in a wood oven. Who can do the most can do the least.
“Learn the rules like a pro so you can break them like an artist” - Pablo Picasso

Offline shuboyje

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Re: Wood Vs Gas installation and maintenance
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2021, 11:35:03 AM »
Solid fuel will have more stringent and costly venting requirements.  If you can have acunto design the vent and provide the materials...as a construction profesional I can tell you first hand nobody in construction or mechanical engineering knows how to properly vent these ovens.  Let's the pros handle it and the construction team just install it.
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Offline scott r

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Re: Wood Vs Gas installation and maintenance
« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2021, 01:25:57 PM »
As usual Jeff is spot on.   In addition, I am forced to have my solid fuel vents cleaned monthly and its every 3 months for gas without solid fuel.   I have had no gas burner break downs tho.   If your going with the acunto oven you are locking yourself into Neapolitan pizza.  For that kind of pizza you are going to have to retain a very well trained oven tender (or really 3 of them).  Plan on them needing many months of training to get up to speed to be able to handle a busy weekend night dinner crush. For that reason its not such a big deal to go with all wood, you will already be paying for full time highly skilled oven attendants.  On the other side of the coin, make sure you have access to high quality wood that is split small. 
« Last Edit: February 20, 2021, 01:29:21 PM by scott r »

Offline LaGaby

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Re: Wood Vs Gas installation and maintenance
« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2021, 10:43:44 AM »
Thanks for your replies

Solid fuel will have more stringent and costly venting requirements.  If you can have acunto design the vent and provide the materials...as a construction profesional I can tell you first hand nobody in construction or mechanical engineering knows how to properly vent these ovens.  Let's the pros handle it and the construction team just install it.

So acunto will provide the immediate vent coming out of the oven then it is down to us to connect that to outside right?
Does anyone have any recommendations for a good construction team based around north west UK, South Manchester area?


As usual Jeff is spot on.   In addition, I am forced to have my solid fuel vents cleaned monthly and its every 3 months for gas without solid fuel.   I have had no gas burner break downs tho.   If your going with the acunto oven you are locking yourself into Neapolitan pizza.  For that kind of pizza you are going to have to retain a very well trained oven tender (or really 3 of them).  Plan on them needing many months of training to get up to speed to be able to handle a busy weekend night dinner crush. For that reason its not such a big deal to go with all wood, you will already be paying for full time highly skilled oven attendants.  On the other side of the coin, make sure you have access to high quality wood that is split small. 

Hi Scott, so you have a dual fuel?
I'm set on the Neapolitan style, it has always been my favourite and there is a clear gap in the market for it here so that's not a problem. But yes, it will be my first time manning this oven so I'm quite nervous never mind training someone else to man it, this is why I thought gas would be the easier option (one less variable to train people on).
You say you recommend having 3 people attending the oven, do you mean 3 making the pizzas and cooking them or one person who puts pizzas in, rotates etc and the other two preparing the pizzas?
We are a new business with limited investment so we were hoping to have minimal staff, I understand that quality and consistency should come first but I really hoped to only have to hire one more person who would make the pizzas and I would attend the oven (my partner and one other member of staff serving).
We are located in town, not a city so customers won't be so numerous but then again, I understand that the weekends could potentially be quite busy. For an idea, we will have roughly 38 seats in our restaurant.
I know many people will say get more staff than you think you might need but money is a factor, and also we were thinking in the current times (covid) that tables will be limited and so output will also be limited.

Any suggestions guys? And thanks for your help, I know I must sound like a panicking, bumbling idiot at the moment but I'm trying to cover all bases and reduce the chances of failing.

Offline billg

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Re: Wood Vs Gas installation and maintenance
« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2021, 10:22:18 PM »
Have you looked into the Mario Acunto line they just released?  They are having an introductory sale now and they look very nice.  Here's are the links: http://www.acuntoforni.it , http://www.acuntoristorazione.it/
« Last Edit: February 21, 2021, 10:25:46 PM by billg »

Offline LaGaby

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Re: Wood Vs Gas installation and maintenance
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2021, 04:28:49 AM »
Thanks for the tip Billg, I'll take a look

Offline billg

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Re: Wood Vs Gas installation and maintenance
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2021, 10:33:51 AM »
Thanks for the tip Billg, I'll take a look

Your Welcome.  They have 3 sizes and I believe the largest model is less than 3000 Euro which is a very good deal ( Introductory price) .  I'm actually considering buying one for my house.  They have an option to add stainless steel to cover the entire oven.  The largest model is less than 1000 lbs and has a Saputo deck.  For outdoor use the oven must be covered from the elements.  All the information I have is via email correspondence with a gentleman named Salvatore.  Curious to hear your thoughts after you do some research.

Bill

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Offline Creagle

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Re: Wood Vs Gas installation and maintenance
« Reply #10 on: March 25, 2021, 07:45:50 PM »
I am in the second year of running my own wood fired Neapolitan restaurant (well takeaway in these covid times) in the UK. In the UK at least, wood fired is easier and cheaper to install. Gas you need a more specialist flue system. Which needs to have a fan, which costs about £4000 - plus maintenance and electricity. The wood is almost zero maintenance, just a £50 chimney sweep twice a year. The cost of the gas burners also adds a few thousand pounds to the oven cost.

I did really look into gas as you say it is much simpler to use in theory. I think the gas connection cost if you have gas lines in the premises already was about £2000.

I would say gas is safer than wood, it's not going to spit, embers/logs cannot roll out of the oven. At the end of the shift you switch off the gas, the oven is off then and there's no ignition sources left inside/embers. With wood, even an hour or two after using the oven there are live embers, you just seal the oven with the door keeping the embers inside - you could always remove them all each night and safely extinguish them but by keeping them inside you keep the oven hot thus reducing the amount of wood needed to get up to temp the following day. If you ever had to quickly evacuate the building etc. you can easily switch off the gas, if you currently have a roaring inferno in the wood oven you cannot - short of chucking water in which would crack and severely damage the oven.

In the UK we have 'clean air zones' which means you can only use wood ovens from a selective number of producers who have had their appliances certified as exempt for use in smoke control zones, if you don't you can always pay to have the specific appliance tested (for a few thousand pounds) but if it fails the test it would be illegal to use it... so that's a huge risk.

I think a major plus for wood is the consumer appeal, people love the romance and fashionability of wood-fired, it's a major selling point. This is even more so if your oven is on display to customers. The smoke from the wood does also add a small amount of flavour, though this depends on if you dome the pizza much (where the smoke is)/the wood you use/how long you cook for - since Neapolitan pizza cooks in under 2 mins the amount of smoke flavour imparted is very minimal. I would definitely say the appeal to customers of the wood is a far greater factor than the actual impact wood has on the pizza.

Finally, staff training. Wood is much harder to teach and to get to a good level your chef will need months of training. This is the biggest disadvantage. Staff turnover in this industry is really high. On AVERAGE chefs stay about 12 months at any one place. You're therefore going to be spending a lot on training people to use the oven and doing so frequently. Unless of course you already know someone extremely reliable/have a partner who is going to be working on the oven/family/get lucky? It's easy to walk up to the oven, put a pizza in, turn it and cook it nicely. But managing the fire single handed for hours is much more difficult, learning the oven's hot spots takes time. Knowing how to adapt the fire in busy times takes time to learn. Most importantly, you need (and I hate the word for its overuse) but 'passionate' chefs. People who want to learn and do the best.

Not only is using a wood fired oven physically tiring (bending, loading wood, heat, managing peels) but also mentally tiring too. You're always looking at how many pizzas are going in next, thinking is that spot going to be too hot now as although it was perfect 5 minutes ago I have had a big flame so it's now too hot, if you have 5 pizzas in you need to know the ones closest to the fire will cook quickest and not forget about the ones furthest away either - 5 pizzas all cooking in 90 seconds doesn't leave much room for error, crusts can go from pale to black in 15 seconds, if 3 pizzas are all ready at once because the flames are big/temperature high by the time you've removed pizza 1 and 2 from the oven pizza 3 is burned - you therefore need to manage the oven in such a way that staggers the cooking - bearing in mind a marinara will cook much quicker than a meat laden pizza or calzone. If you don't have someone who cares, the results will be extremity inconsistent. Too hot underneath and you have black pizza, too cold and its undercooked. And it's not as simple as just whacking in a big bit of wood if it's cold either. You need to always have a piece of wood in the mouth of the oven so its heating up and therefore catches instantly when put on the fire (instead of suffocating the fire for the first minute if it's cold). Too big of a flame and the pizza might burn on the outside and be undercooked underneath. You need to adjust cooking also based on the dough - less ready and a smaller flame/lower temperature is needed. For this reason I would recommend extremely consistent dough in terms of proofing so that there's one less variable to worry about.

Wood fired ovens are also easier to damage, if you throw the wood in you can cause cracks, so the chef needs to carefully use a peel to add wood. If the oven gets too hot water can CAREFULLY be used to cool it down but only a tiny amount. This should be done with either a slightly damp (in no circumstances dripping wet) towel over a peel which needs to be moved briskly in the oven. Or a very slightly damp mop. Chucking/spraying any quantity of water or even worse ice is very likely to lead to cracks.

All in all, wood has greater appeal and potential pay off. It's slightly cheaper to install but in terms of training in the long term will be more expensive. I would recommend wood if your local laws allow it and you're up to the challenge of a more tricky skill. Of course like most things in life, if it's more difficult and therefore scarce, doing it well provides bigger pay offs.

I've definitely rambled on enough now, if you have any questions please ask I will be happy to advise. Final point: In the UK at least wood and gas is about the same cost per unit of heat currently. Gas however is cheaper in the sense that you don't have to pay staff to accept wood deliveries, move wood and potentially chop up wood if it is too large, nor do you need space to store gas as you do with wood.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Wood Vs Gas installation and maintenance
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2021, 01:31:30 PM »
Creagle,

That is a very nice and well thought out and informative post. And well written too. Thank you.

Peter

Offline LaGaby

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Re: Wood Vs Gas installation and maintenance
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2021, 04:24:30 PM »
wow, thanks Creagle! that was a great read and really outlined the differences in the two approaches.
I think to limit start up costs we are going to go with wood, but maybe later on if i wanted to take a back seat, i'd look into investing in gas.

Had a guy checking out the extraction today and he made us unaware of something we hadn't seen or been told before. I am referring to the flue on the roof and he was saying how it will need to extend above the roof by a foot or so (it is a roof that goes up to a point, tent-like, sorry it's late and i'm sure there's a proper term for it). but anyway we are now worried this is going to require planning permission or maybe just add extra costs. wondered if anyone could share their experiences if theirs is similiar?

anyway hopefully we'll get there, just learning new things everyday, not always good things  ???

Offline Yael

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Re: Wood Vs Gas installation and maintenance
« Reply #13 on: April 12, 2021, 10:34:17 PM »
Creagle,

That is a very nice and well thought out and informative post. And well written too. Thank you.

Peter

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Offline Creagle

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Re: Wood Vs Gas installation and maintenance
« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2021, 07:16:10 PM »
wow, thanks Creagle! that was a great read and really outlined the differences in the two approaches.
I think to limit start up costs we are going to go with wood, but maybe later on if i wanted to take a back seat, i'd look into investing in gas.

Had a guy checking out the extraction today and he made us unaware of something we hadn't seen or been told before. I am referring to the flue on the roof and he was saying how it will need to extend above the roof by a foot or so (it is a roof that goes up to a point, tent-like, sorry it's late and i'm sure there's a proper term for it). but anyway we are now worried this is going to require planning permission or maybe just add extra costs. wondered if anyone could share their experiences if theirs is similiar?

anyway hopefully we'll get there, just learning new things everyday, not always good things  ???

Gabby, are you in the UK? If so "Flues on the rear or side elevation of the building are allowed to a maximum of one metre above the highest part of the roof (without formal planning permission" Source: https://www.planningportal.co.uk/info/200130/common_projects/22/flue_chimney_or_soil_and_vent_pipe. Of course you should really enlist the advice of a planning expert, however at just one foot it looks like you will be fine. Of course if we did took professional advice on everything we had to before starting a business we'd run out of money/time long before ever getting to serve the customer a pizza ;)

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