Author Topic: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ? (Read 106268 times)

thezaman · « **Reply #20 on:** July 11, 2009, 11:26:40 AM »

Thank for your reply,I need a lot of work on my pizza and am thankful that there are so many people with experience to help with problems . I am going to attend a vpn school either in new york Keste' or in California to get all of the pizza essentials down ,then work on becoming good at the needed expertise .My pizzeria is in Oberlin ohio and our pizza is based on Cleveland tradition, which is a cooked sauce,a rich french bread dough and provolone cheese as the cheese of choice. So you can see that the neo pie in far from what i am use to making. But the challenge has made the pizza business fun again.

scott r · « **Reply #21 on:** July 11, 2009, 03:54:34 PM »

bill, I just wanted to chime in that in Naples I saw them lifting the pie at the end in just about every pizzeria....I know roberto does it at Keste even in his neapolitan ovens and sub minute bakes. I think you might need to do it a bit longer to get some cooking done, where most neapolitan pizzerias do it more to get some smoke flavor on the pie.

zaman, you are close to pittsburgh, you should definitely go to Il Pizzaiolo. Ron has traveled a similar path as you, but is about 10 years ahead. He is amazing and will most likely inspire and help you.

Good luck!

Mo · « **Reply #22 on:** July 11, 2009, 05:24:28 PM »

Quote from: thezaman on July 11, 2009, 10:18:44 AM

I am looking at this post with a lot of interest and i didn't realize i started it . I have looked into both forno bravo and magnaini neither have a vpn oven. magnaini claims they are close to an agreement with the vpn group out of California .I have two options I can do an outdoor oven at my existing restaurant or, do a true Neapolitan pizza restaurant in a free standing location.If i do an outdoor oven i will be happy with either of the above since it will be used for Neapolitan night once or twice a week. the only dimensions i want are the oven dome to floor to be correct for pizza cooking. magniani claims to have the Neapolitan pizza dimensions needed. Now this is based on my home cooking so all of you that have been at this longer than me help with my observations. I have a hard time getting the pizza toppings and top crust cooked before my bottom get over charred.If i get my deck to 750 degrees my pizza cooks in under 2 minutes and the bake is even. if i try to get the deck to 850 or higher the bottom burns before my top is baked enough.I think that is because the oven doesn't have the right dome height to bake pizza evenly. i noticed the smoke layer you see in a true Neapolitan oven is maybe 6 inches above the pizza ,in my oven it may be 10 or more inches.My theory is that the low dome of the Neapolitan allows the high temperature fast cooking times that the Neapolitan pizza is know for.So, is my thinking as a new Neapolitan lover correct or is my off base?Thanks to every one on the forum for there help this is an amazing board ,if you follow some these threads you are learning from very knowledgeable professionals.

I can't speak to wheather or not VPN has approved outright Mugnaini ovens but I do know that their ovens are in several Twin Cities VPN approved establishments. So for whatever it's worth, Valoriani/Mugnaini ovens have been approved by VPN in terms of concept/execution within specific restaurants. There's even a VPN approved place with a Woodstone oven. For VPN, it's about more than the oven. Ingredients and technique are just as important.

Can someone post a link for the Ferrara and other "true Neapolitan pizza ovens" so that we can compare specs? I would still like to be able to pinpoint some concrete, technical distinctions. I think this would be useful for furthering this technical discussion.

thezaman · « **Reply #23 on:** July 11, 2009, 05:44:59 PM »

Well that is great information, i thought the oven was only to be of italian design with certain specs. I didn't realize that there were vpn approved pizzerias using the above mentioned ovens!!

Mo · « **Reply #24 on:** July 26, 2009, 09:30:56 AM »

Quote from: thezaman on July 11, 2009, 05:44:59 PM

Well that is great information, i thought the oven was only to be of italian design with certain specs. I didn't realize that there were vpn approved pizzerias using the above mentioned ovens!!

Well, zaman, what's the update? Any news to report in your search for an oven??

thezaman · « **Reply #25 on:** August 06, 2009, 06:58:15 PM »

I have talked to a couple of manufactures and a pre built oven would only fit in my building by removing a window ,which is possible . i don't know if i want to invest 7000 euros plus shipping yet. i may do a non Neapolitan oven and promote wood fired organics instead. my restaurant is in a college town and my college customer count is not that good. Next week 8/12-8/15 i am going to take a vpn class after that i will decide which direction to go. later i will list the oven companies i have talked with, and hopefully some forum feed back. thanks

Mo · « **Reply #26 on:** August 07, 2009, 11:36:07 PM »

Quote from: thezaman on August 06, 2009, 06:58:15 PM

I have talked to a couple of manufactures and a pre built oven would only fit in my building by removing a window ,which is possible . i don't know if i want to invest 7000 euros plus shipping yet. i may do a non Neapolitan oven and promote wood fired organics instead. my restaurant is in a college town and my college customer count is not that good. Next week 8/12-8/15 i am going to take a vpn class after that i will decide which direction to go. later i will list the oven companies i have talked with, and hopefully some forum feed back. thanks

I know a couple of the American distributors of Italian ovens offer the possibility of a partially disassembled oven being walked in through the front door and being reassembled by a tech guy that works with the company you buy from. It will cost you around $750 plus a plane ticket to go this route but may be cheaper than removing windows and renting fork trucks, cranes, helicopters or other such heavy machinery...

pcampbell · « **Reply #27 on:** August 08, 2009, 09:01:50 AM »

10,000 bucks isn't that much for an oven!

Fornobravo modulars are around 7k,but then you need to build the facade, etc.

What are the requirements for a VPN oven? I don't think that it actually requires an Italian oven or italian man to make the oven. Pretty sure it just needs to cook the pizzas in 90 seconds and burn wood.

If i were doing this, I'd think hard about building an oven from scratch if it is feasible. This way you pay the least (probably) and get the pride of building your own unique oven and get bragging rights

You can also built it with a lower dome than most commercial modular ovens or pre-fabbed ovens will give you.

Mo · « **Reply #28 on:** August 09, 2009, 10:17:56 AM »

Quote from: pcampbell on August 08, 2009, 09:01:50 AM

If i were doing this, I'd think hard about building an oven from scratch if it is feasible. This way you pay the least (probably) and get the pride of building your own unique oven and get bragging rights You can also built it with a lower dome than most commercial modular ovens or pre-fabbed ovens will give you.

Good luck getting a permit and through inspections with a "backyard special". For commercial application you need to concern yourself not only with building and mechanical codes but food safety codes as well (unless you apply for and are awarded your own NSF or ETL certification and good luck with that)...Even with commercial ovens with all of the proper UL, NSF and ETL listings, you will face a fight trying to get one of these ovens installed without an indirect vent-Type 1 hood system being required, which easily adds another $6,000-10,000 to the cost. Venting these ovens is a huge deal in a commercial application. Grease ducts, exhaust fans, direct fire suppression (Ansul, Piranha, etc) and additional HVAC capacity (makeup air units, etc) start to add up real quick.

pcampbell · « **Reply #29 on:** August 09, 2009, 10:34:54 AM »

You do not necessarily need any of those certifications. Same with Type I hood. Could be just a class A chimney.

What are the certifications of the various handmade site built Italian ovens? I don't know what or if they have any certifications.

A lot of this is just going to come down to the jurisdiction.... "You can't fight city hall". Some are more strict than others.

A lot of them are quick to deny things they do not understand also.

Mo · « **Reply #30 on:** August 09, 2009, 12:55:39 PM »

Quote from: pcampbell on August 09, 2009, 10:34:54 AM

You do not necessarily need any of those certifications. Same with Type I hood. Could be just a class A chimney.

You are wrong. I challenge you to show me a city that will ok a commercial food service oven that has neither UL nor NSF listing. As to the Type 1 hood, it is possible to get around this but, like I said in my post, very difficult to do so. Most cities are working off the latest IMC which states that any cooking appliances that produce grease-laden vapor require a Type-1 hood.

Quote from: pcampbell on August 09, 2009, 10:34:54 AM

What are the certifications of the various handmade site built Italian ovens? I don't know what or if they have any certifications.

They all need some sort of certification. Mugnaini, for instance, have UL listings for both direct and indirect venting and ETL listings. Woodstone is UL and NSF listed. If they want to sell in this country, they need to be listed.

Quote from: pcampbell on August 09, 2009, 10:34:54 AM

A lot of this is just going to come down to the jurisdiction.... "You can't fight city hall". Some are more strict than others.

Like I said, most cities base their codes on IMC and just refine where they deem necessary. Usually, the international standards are a benchmark and they just get tougher from there.

Quote from: pcampbell on August 09, 2009, 10:34:54 AM

A lot of them are quick to deny things they do not understand also.

Most of the city inspection officials I have dealt with were all very informed. It is their job to keep buildings, people, cities etc safe so I usually understand where they are coming from. You run into trouble where the code is insufficiently specific and are faced with individuals making interpretations.

pcampbell · « **Reply #31 on:** August 09, 2009, 04:33:04 PM »

Here in NJ (and we are not really a very lax state), pizza is not considered grease laden so type I is never required for pizza.

I have talked to companies who have no certification and never had a problem getting the ovens going. Dawine in Queens, NY is an example running a non certified pacific brick oven.

I doubt American Flatbread's mud oven is certified.

Mo · « **Reply #32 on:** August 09, 2009, 06:27:11 PM »

pcampbell:

I would say then that you are lucky to do business in a city/state that doesn't require the Type 1 hoods. Even direct venting at times requires an exhaust fan and make-up air issues. I was trying to make the OP aware of the potential costs associated with these ovens. Budgeting $12,000 for an oven and finding out it will cost another $12,000 before you can fire it up is a sobering experience.

As for hand-built, brick and mortar ovens, codes must still be satisfied, easier to do in some cities than others. I think the costs of a custom build are of a different order than the pre-assembled. Just the structural loads involved require engineering, possible reinforced slabs/floors, etc.

If it's Pacific Coast Brick ovens you're talking about, they have UL listings. What other companies have you talked to that don't have listings either for the ovens or components?

The point I am trying to make is to go in with eyes open to potential costs. If you are prepared for the worst and end up in the best circumstances, then consider yourself fortunate/genius and move on. If, on the other hand, you've prepared only for the best case scenario and find yourself being dragged down by cities/contractors etc, then you will have to answer for your lack of preparation.

thezaman · « **Reply #33 on:** August 10, 2009, 09:48:41 AM »

in my kitchen area i only have about eight feet square that i can get an oven into. i do not have an ansel system for my gas kettle or my pizza oven . forno bravo has a series of pizza ovens that can be shipped broken down from italy and assembled on premise. if you know of other companies let me know. my initial talk with the city has been receptive, they just allowed another restaurant a variance to use a wood fired bbq on premise . my biggest concern is that adding another product to my menu is going to add confusion on my busy nights .
i am leaning towards a mobile oven which then can be used on premise as well as special events. i need to find out what cost variables such as food permits are going to add to an event cost. as you can tell i am all over the place on this idea. any thoughts on the mobil oven, they are around 16000.00 dollars. i could then do a neapolitan night on my patio during my summer months and sell off premiss events . we also have 4 wineries within 10 miles of us.

thezaman · « **Reply #34 on:** August 16, 2009, 11:48:14 AM »

Just returned from the vpn training at antica,i have to say that the information picked up on this forum on the Neapolitan pizza gave me a head start on the learning process. making and cooking multiple pizzas was a real experience. i learned three different stretching techniques which were done in slow motion i will post them tonight.

dzpiez · « **Reply #35 on:** August 16, 2009, 03:04:32 PM »

Hey thezaman, how did ya like the VPN training? I took the 6 day training a year ago and not only did I learn alot, but had so much fun. Learned alot from Peppe, and Jose is the best. And you can go to portablebrickpizzaoven.com for a mobile oven, there out of Colorado and us Forno Bravo's ovens on there trailers.

thezaman · « **Reply #36 on:** August 16, 2009, 04:10:30 PM »

it was a great learning experience! i never thought on Wednesday by friday i would be able to bake four pizzas at a time in that oven. but, by friday i felt comfortable cooking . shaping the skins will take a lot of practice, and to make and bake quickly is a long learning experience.
jose is one of the nicest and most dedicated people i have ever met, pepe is lucky to have him. i also meet a lot of wonderful hard working employees ,they never stop . if they are not making a dinning room order they are prepping or cleaning. it was a great experience and the learning curve is a lot faster because of this web site. i was able to learn a lot of non pizza related things that i can use every day at my business. when i get home from work i am going to post three stretching methods demonstrated by jose.

dzpiez · « **Reply #37 on:** August 17, 2009, 12:13:17 AM »

I think I gained about 20 lbs. by the end of the sixth day of the VPN training. And yep, Jose is the best. Antica is about 30 minutes away, so I end up going there every now and then to get a bag of Caputo. And you are right, but the 4th. day you get used to slinging pies in and out of that oven 3 and even 4 at a time.

thezaman · « **Reply #38 on:** August 17, 2009, 12:33:29 AM »

here is a video of jose showing three stretching methods , the third one is what he uses when he needs to make pizzas quickly ,you can here the dough stretching from the centrifugal force

dzpiez · « **Reply #39 on:** August 17, 2009, 12:44:19 AM »

Yep, that's Jose. haha Never can get the third one down, the first two no problemo. What did ya think of there fork mixer?