Pizza Making Forum

Pizza Making => New York Style => Topic started by: abilak on January 12, 2009, 10:52:08 AM

Title: NY/NJ style pie with toppings
Post by: abilak on January 12, 2009, 10:52:08 AM
Hey guys, been gone for a while. Took some pics of a pie I made recently using my method.

500g All Trumps Flour
289g Reverse Osmosis Filtered Water
3g Instant Yeast
11g Ground Sea Salt
4g Onion Powder
4g Fine Garlic Powder
1-2 TBS Olive Oil

Weigh out water, put in bowl
I weigh everything in the same bowl, so...
Dump flour in, weigh out right amount
Put yeast in, weigh
Put salt in, weigh
Put onion powder in, weigh
Put garlic in, weigh

Start mixer with just water in it.
Slowly add 3/4 of this mix of everything
Add olive oil.. mine is in a squirt bottle, so I just squirt for about 3-4 secs, which I think is about 1.5 TBS of oil, maybe a little more.
Slowly add the rest of the "mix"
Set timer for 10 mins and leave on speed 1
Sometimes around 9 mins I add just a pinch more of flour if it seems sticky

Take out dough ball to cutting board and split into 2 balls.
I hand knead each one for about 1 minute just to get the ball nice and tight
Put in pan/bowl for at least 12 hours in the frig.. I prefer 24-36 hours for taste/feel
I usually take the dough out 30-60mins before I make the actual pie

This one was baked on my grill, on my Satillo tiles that I custom cut to make a 19" x 19" surface.
About 650 deg for 6 mins or so, I may have turned it and thrown in back in for 1 more min, I can't remember

Anyways, I make about 2 of these a week, sometimes more. I used to have a gas oven that I modified to go up to 1100 deg. That made some great pies. My Wife made me throw it out when we were finished remodeling out kitchen.. Man I miss that oven. So I am going to build my own gas powered outdoor oven out of firebrick this summer. I will definitely document that process. For now I connected my outside Vermont Castings grill to my natural gas. I only have to preheat for 15-20 mins before I put the pie on. I can easily get this thing to 800+, but, the pies seem to cook good on it anywhere from 550-700 deg.

At the very end are pics of a twist style french bread I made using a "starter". I believe it was a recipe from the King Arthur site.

http://victortheband.com/graphics/Andy/pdough1.jpg
http://victortheband.com/graphics/Andy/pdough2.jpg
http://victortheband.com/graphics/Andy/pdough3.jpg
http://victortheband.com/graphics/Andy/pdough4.jpg
http://victortheband.com/graphics/Andy/pdough5.jpg
http://victortheband.com/graphics/Andy/pdough6.jpg
http://victortheband.com/graphics/Andy/pdough7.jpg
http://victortheband.com/graphics/Andy/pdough8.jpg
http://victortheband.com/graphics/Andy/twistbread1.jpg
http://victortheband.com/graphics/Andy/twistbread2.jpg
Title: Re: NY/NJ style pie with toppings
Post by: Flagpull on January 13, 2009, 12:50:19 AM
Abilak,

Looks good.

I remember your posts here - http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7045.msg60498.html#msg60498

When did you move to adding garlic powder and onion powder to your recipe? What taste differences have you seen from that?

Also, this is what I came up with in the calculator:

Flour (100%):    498.15 g  |  17.57 oz | 1.1 lbs
Water (58%):    288.93 g  |  10.19 oz | 0.64 lbs
IDY (.6%):    2.99 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.99 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
Salt (2%):    9.96 g | 0.35 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.08 tsp | 0.69 tbsp
Olive Oil (2%):    9.96 g | 0.35 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.21 tsp | 0.74 tbsp
Total (162.6%):   810 g | 28.57 oz | 1.79 lbs | TF = N/A
Single Ball:   405 g | 14.29 oz | 0.89 lbs

Look about right?
Title: Re: NY/NJ style pie with toppings
Post by: abilak on January 13, 2009, 07:59:52 AM
Pretty close. Maybe a pinch more salt (11g), and I would say the oil is around 1.5-2 TBS.
I forgot to add that after I put the sauce on the stretched dough, I grind sea salt on the pie, about 7-9 grinds on my grinder.. that gives it a little more taste in my opinion. So the total salt content is a little higher overall.

I decided I would try to add the onion and garlic powder for a little flavor.
I made a pie one night with it in, then the next without..
I didn't tell anyone what I was doing... 3 of 3 unsuspecting people said the first night's crust tasted better (the one with garlic and onion powder). So, I usually put it in now... I think is adds just a very subtle flavor.
I made another one last night, I got pics of that one I will put up later today.

One thing I noticed is that I am turning the temp down a bit, 600-620deg, and cooking 6-7 mins, no bottom charring.
I don't know what it is, but my indoor modified oven that went to 1100 had the "magic" touch... at around 900-1000, 3 mins and the pizza was absolutely perfect... real nice slight char on the bottom, just enough to give it a little taste.. it's harder to gauge on the grill, i have charred the bottom of a few a little too much, just by leaving them on an extra 30 seconds or so... using that thing takes a mix of science and lots of "feel" to get them just right. I can't complain though, I never thought I would be able to make pizza's this good. We haven't ordered a pizza from a shop in over 3 years.. We only stopped to get a slice if we are walking around in downtown orlando or something... Good thing I am usually in the mood to make pizza or dough, or we would be in trouble...
Title: Re: NY/NJ style pie with toppings
Post by: BurntEdges on January 13, 2009, 09:13:48 AM
Abilak,

Nice looking twistbread!

I searched the King Arthur site (under recipes) for twistbread, but only could find a cinnamon variety.  Do you recall the name of the recipe, or could you provide a link to it?  Thanks.
Title: Re: NY/NJ style pie with toppings
Post by: abilak on January 13, 2009, 09:32:33 AM
I probably called it the wrong thing, "twist bread" -- I just used that name because it was braided. It is actually an "Italian" style bread.
Here is the recipe:

http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/RecipeDisplay?RID=R216
Title: Re: NY/NJ style pie with toppings
Post by: Pete-zza on January 13, 2009, 09:36:18 AM
Because the dough calculating tools do not include onion powder and garlic powder as ingredients, one has to devise the baker's percent format the old fashioned way, using pencil and paper and a calculator. Using this approach, the baker's percents are as follows:

100%, All Trumps flour, 500 g.
57.8%, Water (RO, filtered), 289 g.
0.60%, IDY, 3 g.
2.2%, Sea salt, 11 g.
0.80%, Onion powder, 4 g.
0.80%, Fine garlic powder, 4 g.
4.04999%, Olive oil, 20.25 g. (I used 1 1/2 T. for the calculation)
Total percents = 166.24999%
Total dough weight = 832.25 g., or 29.36 oz.
Single dough ball weight = 416.13 g., or 14.68 oz.

What is missing from abilak is the size of the pizza he made using a single dough ball. That would allow us to determine the thickness factor for his skins, and allow one to make a dough batch size for any size of pizza. This calculation is fairly straightforward but it also has to be done manually.

It is fairly common for pizza operators and other pizza makers to add things like onion powder and garlic powder to the dough. The danger is using too much. That can affect the dough and its performance, as was discussed at Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6680.msg57325.html#msg57325.

Peter
Title: Re: NY/NJ style pie with toppings
Post by: abilak on January 13, 2009, 10:48:19 AM
Pete, with that formula I make 16" pizza's on a screen.. so they are pretty much exactly 16" -- They are definitely on the thinner side, but not the thinnest I have made. This seems to be a good all-around formula for me.. I can load it with sauce and tons of cheese, and it still gets crispy on the bottom, or I can put on a regular amount and it still comes out good.
Title: Re: NY/NJ style pie with toppings
Post by: Pete-zza on January 13, 2009, 11:58:52 AM
Pete, with that formula I make 16" pizza's on a screen.. so they are pretty much exactly 16" --

abilak,

For a 16" skin using 14.68 ounces of dough, the corresponding thickness factor is 14.68/(3.14159 x 8 x 8) = 14.68/201.06176 = 0.0730123. So, if someone wants to make, say, a 14" pizza, the amount of dough needed would be 3.14159 x 7 x 7 x 0.0730123 = 11.23936 ounces, or 11.2396 x 28.35 = 318.64 g. To determine the amount of flour for that size dough ball, we divide 11.23936 by 1.6624999 (this is the total percents figure divided by 100), which is 11.23936/1.6624999 = 6.7605 ounces of flour, or 191.66 g. To determine the amounts for the rest of the ingredients, the weight of flour, 6.7605 ounces, is multiplied by each of the baker's percents for the other ingredients. In this case, the water is 3.91 oz. (110.8 g.), the IDY is 0.041 oz. (1.15 g.) (a little over 1/3 t.), the sea salt is 0.15 oz. (4.22 g.) (a bit over 3/4 t.), the onion powder is 0.05 oz. (1.53 g.) (a bit over 1/2 t.), the garlic powder is 0.05 oz. (1.53 g.) (a bit over 1/2 t.), and the olive oil is 0.27 oz. (7.76 g.) (a bit less than 1 3/4 t.). All of the above was done using a calculator and conversion data. That exercise is a time consuming one with a high risk of making simple mathematical errors.

Phillip (Flagpull) perhaps has the better way to proceed and that is to ignore the garlic powder and onion powder and use one of the dough calculating tools, especially since the garlic and onion powders weigh very little and aren't going to affect the total dough ball weight in any material manner. Doing this with the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html for the 14" example gives us the following:

All Trumps Flour (100%):
Water (57.8%):
IDY (0.60%):
Sea Salt (2.2%):
Olive Oil (4.04999%):
Total (164.64999%):
193.52 g  |  6.83 oz | 0.43 lbs
111.86 g  |  3.95 oz | 0.25 lbs
1.16 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.39 tsp | 0.13 tbsp
4.26 g | 0.15 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.76 tsp | 0.25 tbsp
7.84 g | 0.28 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.74 tsp | 0.58 tbsp
318.63 g | 11.24 oz | 0.7 lbs | TF = 0.073012
Note: For a 14" pizza

To the above, I would just add a little more than a half teaspoon each of garlic powder and onion powder. For those who are interested, especially if other pizza sizes are used for purposes of the expanded dough calculating tool, one teaspoon of each of those powders weighs 0.09406323 oz. (based on 1 T. = 8 g.)

Peter





Title: Re: NY/NJ style pie with toppings
Post by: abilak on January 13, 2009, 12:43:43 PM
Peter, to be honest... that's how I started.. with the dough calculator.. then I just slowly modified the ratios until I got the dough that worked best for me. I can toss this stuff, stretch the crap out of it, leave it thicker, get it real thin, and it doesn't tear. The only variable is the pinch or two of flour I throw in at the end, about 7-8 mins into the mixing process.. it's just a "feel" thing. But yeah, but I started without using the powders, then slowly incorporated them, and made some adjustments. Maybe next time I make dough I'll weigh those small amounts of flour I add at the end, for a true total weight of the flour. And I am sure I can weigh the oil too, to get this thing right on for people that are interested in making this same dough.
I'll see if I can get those pics of that other pie up later when I get home from work.. I got a bad memory sometimes,  :chef:
Title: Re: NY/NJ style pie with toppings
Post by: Pete-zza on January 13, 2009, 01:06:50 PM
I can toss this stuff, stretch the crap out of it, leave it thicker, get it real thin, and it doesn't tear.

abilak,

I think the positive attributes of your dough come from the combination of low hydration for the type of flour used and olive oil in fairly large amount. Many professionals use a hydration like yours (around 57-59%) for high gluten flours because it is easier for the workers on the line to make skins out of the dough at that lower hydration. The All Trumps high-gluten flour has a rated absorption value of around 63%, but at that value the dough can become quite extensible and difficult to work with, especially if the workers are inexperienced, which they usually are almost by definition because they tend to be hourly workers like high school and college kids who come and go almost without warning and before they develop the skills needed to work with high hydrations doughs. The 4+% oil in your case helps create a more "plastic" dough because of the way that the oil coats the gluten strands.

Peter
Title: Re: NY/NJ style pie with toppings
Post by: abilak on January 13, 2009, 04:15:30 PM
Peter, thanks for the info!
It all makes sense now... I do prefer how easy this dough is to handle.. it's just great...
Title: More pizza pics with this dough recipe
Post by: abilak on January 14, 2009, 08:12:36 AM
Here are the pics of the other pie I made with the same batch of dough
San Marzano Tomatoes, whole, crushed then lightly boat-motored with a tiny bit of sugar, salt, and oregano
A little dried basil on that
Ricotta cheese then part-skim mozz, then a little provolone
Half a white onion
Then pepperoni with half fresh habanero on half the pie (my Wife is nuts, but she eats it)
This one was 620deg for 6 mins, then I checked the bottom, turned it, and put it in for 1 more min.
16", tasty.

Title: Re: NY/NJ style pie with toppings
Post by: Flagpull on January 14, 2009, 01:10:08 PM
abilak,

I made the dough from Peter's post above, 9 minute mix, overnight rise, and the result seemed to be close to yours.

Baked on bottom rack on a screen, 550 degrees. I liked it a lot.

Cheese was 50/50 Provolone, Mozzarella.
Title: Re: NY/NJ style pie with toppings
Post by: abilak on January 14, 2009, 01:33:16 PM
Nice man, pizza looks great!
How did you like the feel of the dough.. stretching wise? did you throw a pinch or two more of flour at the end of the mixing process? i feel this helps to make it a little bit "tougher" after the rise, which prevents tearing.
Was that the sargento 50/50 mozz/prov blend? if so, I have been using that lately and I really like it.
once again, tasty lookin pizza!!
Title: Re: NY/NJ style pie with toppings
Post by: Flagpull on January 14, 2009, 02:07:34 PM
I did, actually I mixed it in during hand kneading.

The dough was nice. Very stretchable, very tossable, actually. I feel as though I could beat the hell out of it and it'd be okay.

That Sargento blend is OKAY, I've been working on a midwestern style pizza so I use that, for that. We also use a 50/50 provolone/mozz blend at work, so I do get sick of the flavor some times.

Title: Re: NY/NJ style pie with toppings
Post by: JConk007 on January 14, 2009, 03:47:16 PM
Probably mentioned somewhere but whats the thickness factor on this dough so I can go for multiple 12's I will let you know how it holds up in the WFO with like 25% caputo 00 in the spring.
Flag ,
whats the sauce on your pizza, Looks like a thik puree type?  nice and stiff looking.
thanks
JC
Title: Re: NY/NJ style pie with toppings
Post by: JConk007 on January 14, 2009, 03:52:37 PM
Found it in other post as calculated by peter .08 with 1% waste
thanks
Title: Re: NY/NJ style pie with toppings
Post by: Flagpull on January 14, 2009, 04:03:07 PM
@jconky, abilak:

Here was the second pizza, a bit different prep, crushed tomatoes as a sauce, still 50/50 prov/mozz, this time baked directly on my stones, no screen.

Nice flavor, still, bottom browned a bit more than I would have liked but still very very good.

The full gallery here:
http://picasaweb.google.com/pgiven/Pizza1142009#
Title: Re: NY/NJ style pie with toppings
Post by: Essen1 on January 14, 2009, 04:35:49 PM
Flagpull,

That's an interesting mat, with all the measurements on it. Where did you get it from?
Title: Re: NY/NJ style pie with toppings
Post by: Flagpull on January 14, 2009, 04:38:59 PM
It's basically this: http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/detail.jsp?select=C81&byCategory=C325&id=5393

Makes clean up a breeze!
Title: Re: NY/NJ style pie with toppings
Post by: Pete-zza on January 14, 2009, 04:54:46 PM
Found it in other post as calculated by peter .08 with 1% waste

John,

If you mean the recipe posted earlier in Reply 7 of this thread, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7689.msg66094.html#msg66094, the thickness factor is 0.073012, without any bowl residue compensation. Since abilak didn't indicate that he used such a factor, I didn't either.

Peter
Title: Re: NY/NJ style pie with toppings
Post by: abilak on January 14, 2009, 05:26:45 PM
I would say my average waste factor is near 1%, almost nothing left in the bowl when I am done mixing.
Title: Re: NY/NJ style pie with toppings
Post by: abilak on January 15, 2009, 05:55:28 PM
Hey Flagpull... what temps did you cook those pies at, 550? and for the first one, did you say that you used no stone at all? just the screen on the bottom rack?
Title: Re: NY/NJ style pie with toppings
Post by: JConk007 on January 15, 2009, 09:09:08 PM
Peter ,
I was refering to for  1 and 2 on this thread the 500 G to make 2 doughs I seldom make 1
Thank you.
John
Title: Re: NY/NJ style pie with toppings
Post by: Flagpull on January 15, 2009, 11:02:31 PM
Hey Flagpull... what temps did you cook those pies at, 550? and for the first one, did you say that you used no stone at all? just the screen on the bottom rack?

Yes and Yes.

What's up?
Title: Another pie, lower temp, longer cook time
Post by: abilak on January 16, 2009, 07:34:34 AM
Just curious, I don't think I even did one on a screen and no stone... just a pizza pan back in the day  ;)
so I did one with the same dough in my indoor jenn-air gas oven at 585 deg.  yes, the keypad lets you offset the temp by 35 deg.

san marzano tom whole, motor-boated for a few secs
50% mozz, 50% prov
minced garlic in water
pepperoni
hot pepper on one side

baked for 7-8 mins on screen, on bottom stone
then another 3-4 off screen, directly on bottom stone
about 11.5 mins total.
very crispy, came out perfect in my opinion.... we were looking for a more "done" pie last night
I need to get a bigger screen.. these are thin, but I could definitely stretch this dough recipe into a 18" with no prob.
ultra thin pizza!!! hell yeah!
we'll see, if I can find one local I'll pick it up... either that, or I can fit an 18" on my custom cut grill stones too.. with no screen... but my peel isn't big enough anyway.. so I guess I have to get a larger one too.. looks like another order might be in the works.
anyways, let me know what you guys think. this pie was dynamite.

Title: Re: NY/NJ style pie with toppings
Post by: Pete-zza on January 16, 2009, 11:12:33 AM
abilak,

I would say that you aced it.

The method you used to bake the latest pizza, that is, on a screen on top of the stone, is similar to what a lot of pizza operators do with deck ovens. In their case, it is usually because they want to use a dough with a lot of sugar in it, which can result in the bottom browning too fast if the pizza is baked directly on the stone surface, or because their ovens are not the right ones to bake pizza to start with or the ovens are malfunctioning for some reason and using screens compensates for that. Some pizza operators also use pizza screens with their deck ovens, even with the proper ovens working properly, simply because it is easier to train the workers who make the pizzas to use screens rather than peels to get the pizzas into the oven with a minimum of mishap. The part of the process where the pizza is slipped off of the screen onto the stone surface is called "decking the pizza". Some operators reverse the process and start the pizza on the stone surface and then slip a pizza under the screen when the bottom of the pizza is of the desired color. In your case, sugar is not an issue since you aren't using any in your dough.

Peter
Title: Re: NY/NJ style pie with toppings
Post by: Flagpull on January 16, 2009, 12:22:45 PM
Abilak, Pete,

This was my final pizza made with your dough, and it was a great one. This was a 3 day fermentation and it showed.

Wegman's Italian Crushed Tomato
50 / 50 Provolone / Mozzarella
a tiny, tiny bit of fresh mozzarella I had
Extra Virgin Olive Oil before oven

Baked directly on stone, 8 minutes or so.



Title: Re: NY/NJ style pie with toppings
Post by: Cass on January 16, 2009, 01:33:45 PM
That looks great!
Title: Re: NY/NJ style pie with toppings
Post by: abilak on January 19, 2009, 12:27:21 PM
Looks awesome man!
I think I have decided to pursue a peel that will let me do 18" pies, along with a 18" screen.
Sometimes you just have to go big!
Title: Re: NY/NJ style pie with toppings
Post by: koloa101 on January 20, 2009, 12:35:40 PM
awesome looking pies! i will try this out and post my findings. i see i am giving way too much dough to the crust during the shaping phase.