Pizza Making Forum

Pizza Making => Neapolitan Style => Topic started by: Jackie Tran on August 20, 2010, 07:53:11 PM

Title: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jackie Tran on August 20, 2010, 07:53:11 PM
Well since I'm starting to make these pies and have no other place to put them, I thought I would start a new thread.   These are technically nearlypolitans but "almost-wood-fired-oven-politans" is much more fun to say.   :-D

FWIW, I decided that I want a WFO so that will be my next project.  Until then though, a guy's gotta eat right?

These have been posted in other threads but I'm reintroducing them here.  These 2 were made recently.  A caprese pizza and a classic margherita.

I don't remember about the first one but the margherita was made with AP flour. 
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jackie Tran on August 20, 2010, 08:07:00 PM
Quote taken from this thread, reply #115
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11015.100.html (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11015.100.html)

JT,

I think they look sweet - in a savory kind of way. Seriously, nice work - some of the best pies I've seen come out of a home oven.

What was the cook time? From the pictures, it looks like you lost a good bit of the water in your sauce during the cooking process. I noticed that when I was able to get my cook time down from 2:30-2:45 to 2:00-2:15, my sauce has a much "wetter" look which I was trying to achieve.

The crust looks great. Sorry it was "doughier" than you like. Do you think it would be better if you knocked the hydration down a couple turns? 64-65% maybe?

Craig

Thank you Craig.  You have a keen eye for detail.  TBH, I haven't even advance to thinking about the consistency of the sauce.  I've been stuck on the crust for 3 weeks now. 

The cook time is a bit hard to quantify.  With my oven broiler on, the top heat and stone heat is still quite uneven.  The bottem of the pie finishes in about 45 seconds while the top remains white, so I have to pick up the pie with the metal peel and rim it against the broiler to finish it off.  I have to rotate the pie 4-5 times to accomplish this and it takes around a little more than a minute I think. 

I'm not sure "doughier" was the right word.  Perhaps "had more chew than I like" would have been more appropriate.   With the margherita, I had room fermented the dough for about 8 hours, divided and balled, into fridge for 9 hours until I got off of work, proofed for 3 hours till bake.   I was attempting to overproof the dough to see if I could force more leoparding pocks to appear, but to no avail.

I believe that the dough had sort of a dense chew to it b/c it was overproof.  The acids undesireably strengthened the dough.    As a test, I repeated the same recipe (AP flour, 69% HR, same kneading technique), but this time upped the yeast and feremented/proofed the dough for a total of 4 hours.   The texture (IMO) was much improved.   The pie was excellent.  The dough had a very tender consistency to it and gave way to the teeth easily.  Almost a melt in your mouth texture.  It was so good, I almost wondered if I had just tasted something very close to a "real" NP pie.   This is the only picture I have of this pie as I did not have intention of posting it.  I will try to recreate it in several days. 

Out of curiosity I will repeat the bake but I will lower the HR by about 4% to see the difference.  I'll report back later.

Chau
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: hotsawce on August 21, 2010, 12:09:49 AM
The spotting on that margherita looks divine. Has your cooking method changed at all? Looks like your pizzas are truly evolving!
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: andreguidon on August 21, 2010, 09:49:20 AM
NICE !!!  :chef: :pizza: :chef:

those pies look SO GOOD !!!
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jackie Tran on August 21, 2010, 02:02:18 PM
Thank you guys, but to be honest I'm very far from knowing what I'm doing.   I'll keep working at it...

HS to answer your question, not really.  I have cook pizza in the home oven, the MBE, and the primo ceramic grill.  These were done in the home oven.  I can't produce this look in the MBE, it won't get hot enough.  I will attempt to capture this look using my primo ceramic grill but that is another topic. 

In the home oven I can make these pies and NY style pies.  Both require different stone setups.  To do this, I have the stone about 2.5" under the top broiler.  I don't believe my Viking oven has a bottom broiler at all.  I believe it heats only from the top down.   It heats for about 30-40min.  I load the pie once the stone temp gets to be about 850F.  I don't do the typical 1 hour preheat times as I would when doing a NY style pie. 


Chau
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Matthew on August 21, 2010, 02:35:24 PM
Chau,
Great job, very impressive. Since your venturing into Neapolitan style pizza you may want to consider changing the spelling of your name from Chau to "Ciao".  :-D
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jackie Tran on August 21, 2010, 03:00:12 PM
Chau,
Great job, very impressive. Since your venturing into Neapolitan style pizza you may want to consider changing the spelling of your name from Chau to "Ciao".  :-D

Thx Matt and I will certainly consider that.  Thanks for any help you can provide.  My biggest challenge right now is to find the right WFO.  I can't decide between a poor man's tester WFO or just to go all out and go big.  There are so many to choose from.  I need to sit down and re-evaluate my needs and usage.  You all have definitely pulled me to the darkside!  >:D

Ciao
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: BrickStoneOven on August 21, 2010, 03:12:24 PM
I will certainly consider that Matthew.  Thanks for any help you can provide.  My biggest challenge right now is to find the right WFO.  I can't decide between a poor man's tester WFO or just to go all out and go big.  There are so many to choose from.  I need to sit down and re-evaluate my needs and usage.  You all have definitely pulled me to the darkside!  >:D

Ciao

Go big or go HOME!
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: brayshaw on August 21, 2010, 03:13:51 PM
  I can't decide between a poor man's tester WFO or just to go all out and go big. 

GO BIG! GO BIG!
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jackie Tran on August 21, 2010, 03:44:14 PM
Go big or go HOME!

As in go HOME oven.. :-D

David, I hate to say it but you were right! It has been less than a month! ;)
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: BrickStoneOven on August 21, 2010, 05:09:57 PM
I told you you would want one sooner rather then later. Tell your wife I said sorry for the pain she is about to go through. :-D
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: PizzaSean on August 21, 2010, 09:23:02 PM
Wow Ciao/Chau!

Those are awesome!  just wanted to say how good they look... Also, I can't wait til I can start experimenting with all different kinds of pizza making including those nearlypolitan types, too.

Just curious - when you said you were doing 2.5" with the broiler - are you using the broiler for all of your heat?  Or also oven heat?
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jackie Tran on August 21, 2010, 09:56:49 PM
Thanks for the kind word Sean.   The oven set up can be seen here in reply #24 of the linked thread below.  With this oven set up pic is one of my first experimental pies using the technique I describe below.  You can see the skin is very thin and I tore a hole in it.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10514.20.html (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10514.20.html). 
The stone is about 2.5" from the broiler.  It is a 16" Primo Ceramic stone.  These come glazed on one side and I went ahead and had the other side glazed with a food safe glaze as well. 

I'm using the broiler for all the heat.  I'm pretty sure my oven doesn't heat from below.  The broiler is also the source of heat for the entire oven.  If I turn the oven to 400, the same burner kicks on but the heat output is not as high as if I turn it to broil. 

Basically, the heat is concentrated at just the top of my vast oven.   The stone absorbs much of the heat coming down from the broiler and reflects part of it back up.  I basically just turn the broiler on from a cold start and when the stone temp hits 850 I load the pie with the top broiler running.  I can stick my hand into the middle of the oven when all this is going on without risk of burning myself. 

The only thing to watch out for is the top inside of the door.  It gets HOT!  B/c these types of pies bake so fast, many times after I load the pie, I shut the door for just 30 seconds or so.  I then open the door and check the bottom for charring/burning.  I'll monitor the progress of the pie with the door open as if I'm at the entrance of a real WFO.  ;D

After about 45 seconds or so I pick the pie up with the metal peel and hold the edge of the rim against the running broiler to brown the edge.  I then pull the peel out and carefully rotate the pie and repeat.  Occasionally the pie will want to stick to the metal peel and if I'm not careful about peeling it off to turn i can tear a hole in the bottom of the pie.   I will likely play around with transferring the pie to a wire rack before rimming it to avoid this.   ;D

One of the issues is that I'm dependant on the heat bouncing off of the peel to evenly brown the outer perimeter of the crust.  To make this successful with the wire rack, I would likely have to put a band of aluminum foil around the outside edge of the rack.  It should work but I need to test it out. 

Chau
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: dellavecchia on August 23, 2010, 07:47:37 AM
I got rained out yesterday, and had to go back to my home oven. I tried Chau's patented technique. I have real admiration for Chau in getting those beautiful results - mine were not so good. This dough was the exact formulation I use for my WFO (caputo 00). The cook time was around 3 minutes. My stone would not get past 650 degrees, no matter how long I left it under the broiler. I have a heavy duty Wolf oven, so I am pretty sure it was the stone. Anyway, I did the rim lifting but did not get any leoparding. The taste was great, but somewhat tough (although not as tough as I thought it would be.) I need some more practice or a change in my formulation/proofing, as I need to use my home oven during the cold winter months. In fact, I may start to learn a NY style so I do not have to kill myself trying to make a neapolitan!

John
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: scott123 on August 23, 2010, 08:00:06 AM
John, was your vertical opening 2.5" or less?  Did you see the broiler kick in/glow red? Sometimes the oven gets so hot, the broiler never turns on.

Do you think you can dependably hit 650 every time?  If so, I think you're set for NY style- should you ever decide to take that route.
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: BrickStoneOven on August 23, 2010, 08:24:57 AM
John the pizza looks good. That toughness is the reason why I think Caputo shouldn't be used at lower temps, the longer it cooks the tougher it gets. The reason for that 60-90sec mark is so that the crumb and crust stay stuff.

As long as its not snowing I am going to be using the oven.
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jackie Tran on August 23, 2010, 08:39:42 AM
John, thank you for posting your results with a picture.   I couldn't ask for better feedback.  I know you mentioned this already but I wanted to be sure.

This is the same exact formula you use each time with your WFO with the same fermentation times?  The only thing that has changed is the oven?  If so, I'm not surprised by your results.  I did an experiment just last week and got similar results.  I made the same dough and baked one pie under the broiler and the other in the MBE.  Pictures are below.  One looks more like a NP and the other a NY style pie.   So heat differences for sure will give different results.

John, you may be partially correct about the stone differences.  My experiments were born out of trying to replicate the look of Toby's nearlypolitan pies.   From what I can remember he uses a cheapy $10 stone.   I have also gotten hearth temps of 800+ using natural stone tiles like travertine and slate from Lowes.  Although I don't recommend these types of stones.  Just because they can reach high temps doesn't mean they can retain heat well, and then there is the issue of cracking and rupturing.

I have some experimental dough that needs to be baked tonight.  If the dough is still good after  I get off of work, I will be happy to run an experiment for you.  I have firebricks, quarry tiles, and a cheapo $12 pizza stone I can try to make an A-WFO-P pie with.   Let me know what you would like to see me try with.  I may even bake one pie with the Primo stone and another with a different material just to see.

The pies I posted above are very experimental in nature meaning I have just started discovering them myself.  I have the formulas and techniques documented but I haven't made a ton of them either, so replicating them at this point isn't actually quite as easy as pie...yet.

Chau

Pictures below.  Same formula and ferment times.  First pie baked under the broiler, and 2nd pie in the MBE.  The taste and look of the 2nd one was drastically different from the first.   
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: dellavecchia on August 23, 2010, 12:42:18 PM
John, was your vertical opening 2.5" or less?  Did you see the broiler kick in/glow red? Sometimes the oven gets so hot, the broiler never turns on.

Do you think you can dependably hit 650 every time?  If so, I think you're set for NY style- should you ever decide to take that route.

I think that the gap was closer to 3in - but I did make sure the broiler was on during the whole time. I am definitely going to try a NY soon.

Quote from: BrickStoneOven
John the pizza looks good. That toughness is the reason why I think Caputo shouldn't be used at lower temps, the longer it cooks the tougher it gets. The reason for that 60-90sec mark is so that the crumb and crust stay stuff.

Yes, I agree. I am going to try some All Trumps next.

Quote from: Jackie Tran
I have some experimental dough that needs to be baked tonight.  If the dough is still good after  I get off of work, I will be happy to run an experiment for you.  I have firebricks, quarry tiles, and a cheapo $12 pizza stone I can try to make an A-WFO-P pie with.   Let me know what you would like to see me try with.  I may even bake one pie with the Primo stone and another with a different material just to see.

Chau - I am just going to buy what you use. Can you re-fresh my memory on what stone you use?

John
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jackie Tran on August 23, 2010, 12:51:29 PM
Sure John.  I use a Primo Ceramic Stone.  It is glazed on one side.  The material is very porous and light but can tolorate high heat.   It is made from the same refractory cement/clay material they use on their Primo Ceramic cookers.   The side that is not glaze can powder off if rubbed against a hard surface.  It's not strong like firebrick is.  I went ahead and had the 2nd side glazed as well.

You may be able to find The Big Green Egg and it's accessories easier locally than Primo products.  I would imagine the BGE pizza stone is very similar to the Primo's.  Before you order one though, let me see if I can't duplicate my results using different types of stones.   I may try quarry tile this afternoon. 

My dough this afternoon is the Arrowhead Mills organic BF.  Should be interesting to see what  I get.

Chau
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jackie Tran on August 23, 2010, 06:27:52 PM
Well I got home at 230pm and the dough was overblown.  As in collapse under it's weight.  i decided to bake anyway, but used 2 layers of quarry tile under the broiler.  The distance between the broiler and hearth is now 2".  I was able to get the temp to 800F in about 20m.   I decided to go ahead and load the pies instead of waiting for 850F+.   They had a similar look to the above pies.  Not as pretty but similar.   The BF was doughy.  I'm not sure if that was from being overfermented or if it was the extra protein in it.  It was likely the combination of BF, plus thicker rim, plus short bake time as S00da talked about in different thread.  Anyways the quarry tile worked well in my oven.   

Chau
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 23, 2010, 07:55:11 PM
I tried Chau's patented technique. I have real admiration for Chau in getting those beautiful results - mine were not so good.

I agree, I tried it too ... not so good. JT's work is proof positive of what you can accomplish if you put your mind to it.

Craig
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jackie Tran on August 23, 2010, 08:12:15 PM
You guys are wayyy too kind.   You all keep me humbled and to be absolutely honest, I wish I could make pies that look like Toby's, any of the WFO guys including John's lastest typhoid fever pie, GB's, and TxCraig1's (esp the recent 12 pies thread).  I would only be so honored to be considered even remotely in the same playing field. 

I'm really just another guy tinkering around the home kitchen that likes to get on here and gab. Thanks for letting me do that. 

Now, I hope that with more testing I can get these pies to taste absolutely fantastic.  Then I'll really have something special.

Cheers,
Chau
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jackie Tran on August 25, 2010, 12:47:11 AM
Ok, after 3 weeks of making dough and trying everything imagineable...I finally made a pie with a decent amount of leoparding.   What's so cool about leoparding anyhow?  Heck if I know, i just like it.  :-D

Here's the interesting thing about leoparding and heat that I noticed.  These 2 pies are made from the same dough with the same dough technique.   The first one was baked at 800 on quarry tiles.  I purposefully didn't stretch it out and left it thick.   Well I was so pleased and enamored with the look I spent a few minutes admiring it and taking a few photos. 

After stretching out the 2nd skin about 5 mins later.  I checked the temp of the quarry tiles and it read 900F+.  I said what the heck, these WFO guys are baking at 950 so it should be ok.   Well the bottom burned very quickly so I had  to pull it out after 20 seconds or less.  I notice the top was still somewhat raw.  I rimmed this one under the broiler in the usually fashion but got a different look.  I believe the very brief exposure to air cooled the rim off a bit and when it went under the broiler again, it gave more of that NY look.  The crust browned more and there was less spotting.  Interesting......
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: norma427 on August 25, 2010, 06:46:04 AM
Jackie Tran,

Your recent experiments are interesting and the pies look great!  ;D  Would you mind telling what kind of dough formula you used for these pies?  I really like the leoparding.  :) How was the taste of the crusts?

Norma
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jackie Tran on August 25, 2010, 11:54:00 AM
Thx Norma.  I like the leoparding as well, but wish I could get the big cat patterns like some of Toby's pies or some of the authentic wood fired pies.  I hope it's just an oven or heat issue.  Someday I'll find out. 

As far as the formula goes, I've been trying different flours, and different techniques.  This IDY I have now really seems so much more potent than my ADY or starters.  I've been having to learn how to regulate it's use and fermentation times.

Flour    100% AP flour
Water  69%
Salt     2%
IDY     0.05% (8h rm temp, 6h cold, 2h proof)

Dough was hand kneaded to full gluten developement (for experimental purposes).  Room temp ferment (76F) for 8 hours.  Then cold fermented for 6 hours. proofed for 2 hrs then baked.

I had originally intended this dough to room ferment for 8-10 hours total, but it wouldn't have made it that long.  I would have also skipped the cold ferment but I got stuck at work so I had to put this dough  to sleep to slow it down.   It was well fermented when  I got home, and divided and balled it cold out of the fridge.   Let it proof up for 2 hours and then baked. 

The crust/crumb:  It was quite good.  Very tender and moist with little chew.  Gave way to the teeth easily.  The rim on this one was quite airy.  It puffed up a lot and the rim had large voids in it.  If I'm being picky, it was a little wee bit doughy despite the puffiness. 

My wife who has told me on many occassions in the past, "I don't like those italian pizzas you make.  Can you make the NY pizzas", ate this one right up despite it's lack cheese.  She loves cheese.

I'm gonna attribute the very slight doughiness to the over kneading (over gluten development) and short cold ferment time.  I will try to tweak the texture by tweaking the kneading times and fermentation times next.  I may also start blending flours again, AP with my bromated HG flours to see what I get. 

Chau
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: norma427 on August 25, 2010, 12:00:58 PM
Chau,

Thanks for giving your formula, ferment times and all the details!  :)  They are great looking pies.

Norma
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jackie Tran on August 25, 2010, 12:43:21 PM
Norma - you're welcome.  Someday I hope to get it right.   :-D

I forgot to post pics of the undercarriage, and more crumb shots.  You can see the over gluten development I spoke about in these shots.  FWIW, I have yet to eat a real NP pie so I have no basis for judgement.  I can only say what I like and don't like.   I would love some feedbaack from the WFO guys.  Constructive criticism is much appreciated.  Guests, feel free to chime in as well.  Otherwise, I feel like I'm just talking to myself sometimes.   ::)

Chau
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: brayshaw on August 25, 2010, 01:22:44 PM
Cracking looking pies Chau! Those toppings look as tasty as the crust! What were they?
Paul
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jackie Tran on August 25, 2010, 02:12:18 PM
Thx Paul.  I never know how these pies will turn out so I just was messing around and adding stuff.

1) home grown tomatoes  (my dad's), drizzle of OO, roasted garlic, gran padano parmesan.

2) Red sauce, sliced tomatoes, drizzle OO, roasted garlic, fresh rosemary. 

I was trying to make pizza bread of sorts. 
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: brayshaw on August 25, 2010, 04:08:39 PM
You did a great job Chau! I will try those for sure!

Paul
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jackie Tran on August 30, 2010, 10:59:59 PM
Thanks Paul.   :P   

Repeated with the same AP flour formula except I lowered the hydration to 67% to see if that would give me more leoparding or not.  It didn't seem to make a difference in the appearance but I noticed it in the crumb texture.  I also cut the IDY by half and that seemed to work better for the fermentation time frame of 12h.   These ended up going 14 hours bulk and a 2 hour proof.  I was fooling around with varying the bulk time to see what effect it has but not much.  These could have proofed a few more hours but mama was gettin' hungry.

1) Classic pie with cherry tomatoes.  Don't laugh but Trader Joes ran out of my preferred cream mozz, so I tried mascarpone.  It wasn't that bad actually.  Next time I'll skip the OO as it made it runny. 
2) White sauce, shrimp, and carmelize onions, & basil.
3) white sauce & arugala.   Friend introduced me to arugala over the weekend. It's pretty good stuff.  I alway thought it was a touch too fancy for me, but I actually like it.
4) New Mexico Green Chile Cheese bread

Tell me if you guys like the darker or lighter rim. 
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jackie Tran on August 30, 2010, 11:03:40 PM
Was going for a less holy rim this time.  Wanted smaller and tighter cell structure instead of those big voids.  Still got a few big voids but for the most part, I like the crumb structure on these better. 

Also the lower hydration gave more chew than I had last time.  I like the higher hydration dough better.  Gave way to the teeth more and I like that.  Like a McDonald's big mac, you don't have to chew it much.  :-D

On my next go round with these, I'll go back to seeing if I can make these with caputo OO flour.  I only had a small amount left and have been saving it.   :-\

Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: brayshaw on August 31, 2010, 04:08:27 AM
Great job yet again ;D I personally prefer the lighter rim, how bout you Chau?

Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: widespreadpizza on August 31, 2010, 09:06:26 AM
JT,  re big spots.  It has been brought up before that the large spots are a sighn of overfermentation and are considered a defect to the masters in Naples.  You want them as small as can be.  The best looking pies to me have plentiful tiny char spots.  If you do want to get some big ones,  try a long bulk fermentation at room temp,  then divide/reball 4 or more hours before baking.  -marc
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jackie Tran on August 31, 2010, 09:33:29 AM
Thanks Paul as always.  For now, I do lean towards the lighter rims and would like to see more dark and profuse black welts for a nice color contrast. 

Marc, thanks for the tip.  I have been trying that but without too much luck.  I'll  try again.  I baked these too early last night b/c it was getting late and my wife was giving me that I'm hungry feed me look.  :)

I have also read that the intense leoparding look is something that is undesireable to traditional NP pizza, a sign of overfermentation, and something we Americans enjoy looking at.  I'm not sure why I find them so fascinating.  Maybe it's b/c I haven't really achieved that look and I've become somewhat fixated on the challenge of it. 

I know that this is a tough question but can you recommend a yeast (type) and % along with some bulk and proof times?   Maybe just something that has worked for you?  I would really be appreciative.
It's possible that it's the lack of a WFO or the heat is off, but I don't think that is the issue.   

In this latest batch, the formula was ..
•   Water      259gm (54F)
•   AP flour                380gm (68%)
•   Salt      9gm-1.5tsp (2.4%)
•   IDY      1/32tsp-0.09gm-0.025%
•   Total      648gm

I am aware that my IDY amount is a bit on the low end.  I seemingly get too much activity from it and consequently had to decrease it.   I was at work so I could not monitor the dough more closely but it rose to more than double at room temps (75F) within 10 hours.  it ended up bulk rising for 2H more before i could divide and ball it and then proofed only 2 hours at 84F. 

Do you think if I kept with this formula and ferment regime, and increase the proof by another 4 hours or so i would see the pox? I'm open to any suggestions or help.   Why are these spots eluding me?

Chau

BTW, Marc what do you think about the current look of my pies?  Do any of them have that traditional look that is desireable?
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jackie Tran on September 05, 2010, 11:09:41 PM
Here are tonight's Pies. 

1) Same day dough.  White sauce, cheese, basil.  Stretched a little too thin.  It was okay.

2) 2 day cold ferment pie with minimal kneading.  Turned out better than the first.  I didn't stretch it as thin and it looks better too.  ;D  White sauce, mozz, Arugula, saute mushrooms, parmesan.  Texture was just as good as the same day.  The cold ferment didn't hurt it.  :-D

3) Desert Pie :  Same day dough (AP flour).  Borrowed the idea from Dellavechia.   Without toppings, this thing puffed right up.  Topped with Nutella, marscapone cheese, glazed strawberries and blueberries.  I also ate it with a bit of cinnamon basil.  This one was over the top.  Next time, I will likely use fresh fruit. 

4) Made a 2nd dessert pie with a leftover dough (1/2 AP 1/2 HG).
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jackie Tran on September 05, 2010, 11:13:42 PM
A few obligatory crumb shots...

1) the arugula pie.

2) dessert pie.

3) 2nd dessert pie.
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: satgan on September 06, 2010, 07:13:39 AM
Great looking pies!!!
Bravo!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: dellavecchia on September 06, 2010, 07:59:12 AM
Chau, you are a master. I am still trying to replicate your technique in the oven. These pics are inspiring. What are you going to do with yourself if you get a WFO?

John
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: norma427 on September 06, 2010, 08:11:20 AM
Chau,

Your pies look fantastic!  ;D

Norma
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: BrickStoneOven on September 06, 2010, 08:23:11 AM
The bake on the second pie looks dead on.
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jackie Tran on September 06, 2010, 08:42:13 AM
Thanks guys & gal, I really appreciate the comments.  They mean a lot to me.  ;D

John, you may not be that far off from replicating what I have done.  IMO, heat is heat.  If one member can do it, so should another member.  If Toby can do it, so should I right?  ;D After all, we are working with just 5 variables right?  flour, water, salt, yeast, and heat.   So why can it be so difficult at times.  ??? :P

I made a discovery last night that I posted in your thread...Reply #11.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11617.0.html (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11617.0.html)

I have made it known that I have wanted to get those deep dark pox on the rim for awhile now.  I accidentally did it once and hadn't been able to replicate again till last night in the above link.

Here's the first appearance for me.  John this was a same day dough with starter.  6 hours from start to finish to be exact.  Reply #228.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10024.220.html (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10024.220.html)

I initially didn't suspect it was my setup b/c I haven't change it much really.  It's been essentially the same.  The only thing I have changed is the cooking medium and that's to show that it's not the stone.  So I hope you haven't ordered that Primo stone yet John.  :-D  If you have no biggee, it's a decent stone.  

Between the 2 occurances, I have tried playing with all the variables I could think of and no success.  This was in excess of 3 wks of making dough.  The dough that I posted in your thread is the same dough as dessert pie #2 above.  
Apparently these [email protected] pox marks have been escaping me is possibly a heat imbalance issue in my home oven.   I have been preheating my home oven for under 30m or until the stone temp gets 850.  There is really less than a 2.5" gap between the burner and the stone.  All the heat is trapped up there.  Up till now, I had assumed that a longer preheat time wouldn't make a difference, maybe it will. ???

My next move to see if my theory is correct is to get the stone even closer to the broiler and maybe increase the preheat times.  Maybe 1.5", so that once the pie rises, it will rise right into the fire of the broiler.   I hope that someday when I have a WFO and with proper fire/heat management, that I can enjoy just a straight bake rather than having to do all these oven shenanigans.   :P  I'm sure the WFO's have their own peculiarities to learn.

Anyways, the point I'm seeing is that even at <2.5" clearance from the fire, a slight heat imbalance somewhere up there will create a different look.  So my thought is this...manipulate the heat and we can manipulate/control the leoparding.  Leoparding in my opinion has to do with fermentation and heat.  I don't believe it is strictly cold fermentation, but fermentation in general or overfermentation to be more accurate.   Again, my 1st experience with the pox is with a 6 hour dough.  

So John, to get that authentic look in your WFO (and to avoid the pox), I believe it has more to do with heat than the hydration ratio or the cold fermentation process.  IF I am right about it being a heat issue, that is high testament to the performance of your WFO.  Simply awesome oven.  You can take an overly fermented same day dough and with ultra high heat, you should have leoparding.  To get a more authentic look (less pronounce leoparding), lower the heat.  

So to duplicate with I have done in the home oven, you may try getting the stone closer to the fire.  Again, I have been working with less than 2.5" clearance and even that hasn't always been enough.
 
A BIG DISCLAIMER HERE...
Folks do this at your own risk.  Be aware that when playing with fire, there is a potential risk for burns, damaging your oven, burning your house down, and a potential lost of life.  

I'm being serious here.  I don't entirely encourage people to use the broiler technique either.  I'm just saying this is how i've done it - that's it.  I'm in the process of trying to get a small home made WFO built so I don't have to do these oven tricks.  

The left side of my broiler burner sags a bit when operating during these bakes.  I have just noticed it a few days ago.  I don't know that it's always been like this or it is due to these oven tricks I've been using for pizza.  It makes me uncomforatble though, that I may be damaging my home oven.  So users beware of this.  

Chau
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Matthew on September 06, 2010, 09:30:12 AM
Chau,
First off, nice job!
I don't experiment much with my Neapolitan dough because I typically only make pizza on the weekend & have come up with a dough formula that offers what I think is a really good balance of sour flavor, texture, fermentation, extensibility, etc.  The whole process is quite time consuming so I prefer to experiment with pizza/bread that I bake in my home oven (Teglia, focaccia, etc.)  It really sucks to go through the WFO prep & then end with a bad batch of dough.  You'll see what I mean when you start using a WFO.
That all changed last weekend when I decided I was going to come up with a formula to increase the sourness of my dough.  I did this by increasing the starter to an amount typical of what I would use for an 18 hour 1st fermentation but let it go for 24 hours at a controlled temperature of 72 degrees.
I knew something was up when I started to ball the dough; it didn't feel the same.  The smell was intoxicating in a really good way so I thought, let's see what happens.  I placed the panetti in my dough box & let them proof for another 6 hours.
I prepped the oven so that it was blazing hot with a nice fire to the side licking the dome.  I opened the first dough & knew right away that something was wrong.  I slapped & pulled the dough to about 10" with a lot more effort than it typically takes, slid the dough on the peel & did the second stretch to about 13" with a slight overhang on the left & right side on the peel.  I loaded the pizza & went to grab my turning peel so that I could heat it up a bit before turning the pie.  By the time I got back I had some really crazy leoparding on the pizza & heard sizzling sound which I knew right away was the cheese which meant that there was a hole burnt into the pizza.  I pulled it out & sure enough my overfermentation suspicion was confirmed.  I stretched the rest of the dough with caution & forewent the second stretch & ended up with pies a little thicker than what I'm used to/like.  Again, the leoparding was crazy, like I've never seen before.  Long story short; the flavor was amazing but the dough was really difficult to work with.  I am now completely convinced that the leoparding that you're looking to achieve is the direct result of overfermentation & high heat.  No, there are no pics, I was too pissed off!  Give it a shot if that's what your after.

Matt
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jackie Tran on September 06, 2010, 09:50:25 AM
Wonderful Matt.  Thank you for the compliment and for your post - this confirms my suscipions now.  I know that these 2 factors (heat and fermentation) have been brought up before.  I believe there is a whole thread on it here for anyone wanting more information.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6214.0.html (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6214.0.html)
I do want to say that Marc (widespreadpizza) has told me the same when I PM'd him. 

Having thought that I was supplying both of these factors, especially since I was baking <2.5" under the broiler, these pox were still eluding me.  For me it's one of those stupid things I just wanna be able to do to learn about it.  It's the challenge of it and wanting to know more about it and possibly control it.  This way when I eat pizza at a famous place or see pics online, I can confidently pinpoint the variables that causes that.  It will expand my pizza knowledge and make me a bit more versatile.  Thus my obsession with trying to attain that.  I'm sure once I can achieve it, I'll be on to something else. 

If I can get the oven built right, I think that I will be able to more easily attain that look if I wanted to.  I may find that I don't like the texture or taste of an overfermented dough at all.  But for now, I still want to learn about it.   

I'm taking John's advice on freezing the dough and will provide an update in several days.  I plan on repeating the experiment will decrease that gap even more down to 1.5" or less.  Not sure I will be able to load a pie with that clearance.  :-D  I have done it with 2" but not less.  I plan on making a same day dough and letting it overferment to compare to the frozen then thawed dough. 

Should be interesting if i don't blow up my oven. 

Chau
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: TXCraig1 on September 06, 2010, 10:13:23 AM
Chau,

You do keep a fire extinguisher handy, right?
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: andreguidon on September 06, 2010, 10:52:14 AM
Matt, have you ever tried adding some manitoba flour to the mix, so the dough doesn't rip so easy ? wen taking the VPN training Giulio talked to me in private about sourdough fermenting using 10 to 20% of manitoba flour, this helps the acid in the SD not to completely destroy the gluten.
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Matthew on September 06, 2010, 12:48:39 PM
Matt, have you ever tried adding some manitoba flour to the mix, so the dough doesn't rip so easy ? wen taking the VPN training Giulio talked to me in private about sourdough fermenting using 10 to 20% of manitoba flour, this helps the acid in the SD not to completely destroy the gluten.

Hey Andre,
No I have never tried.  I used to purchase Manitoba Flour (Canadian Hard Western Spring Wheat) from a small local Mill just east of the city that produces some fantastic flours.  Since I started making bread I've moved to using the same product but with additives (amylase, diastatic malt, etc). 
Manitoba Flour seems to be an issue that causes a bit of confusion, most people substitute it for bread flour, HG flour, or strong bakers flour which is not the same thing.  I have never used, nor do I have access to Caputo Manitoba flour but I image it's the same thing as CHWSW.  If anyone has tried or is currently using "Manitoba Flour" milled in Italy I would be very curious to know the list of ingredients on the package.

Matt
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: andreguidon on September 06, 2010, 12:59:03 PM
i think its the same Matt, cause they also called it farina Americana... wen talking to the Italian's from 5stagioni here in Sao Paulo in a food show, they said all bakers in Italy call the strong flour farina Americana, and in the 50,60 and 70s if the American flag was not in the package they would not buy it... try something like that... unfortunately i have no access to this kind of flour, just the blue 00 5 stagioni and the 00 granarolo.
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: ponzu on September 07, 2010, 12:39:17 AM
JT,

Reguarding the heat balance issue.  One thing that I noticed when i tried to use your broiler only method was that the stone surface temperature would rise quickly AND fall quickly when the thermostat shut the oven off .  I think this was because the stone surface was the only part that was hot.  The remainder of the stone hadn't come to temperature.  The temperature of the stone is much more stable with my current fire brick oven set up, even when the heating element shuts off.

You might try and extended bake (not broil) at the highest temperature for a couple of hours and then crank the broiler just prior to firing your pizza. Other options would be a lower rack position with a row of firebrick under the stone to achieve same 2.5 inch gap in order to maximize thermal mass/stored heat.

What kind of wfo are you considering?  I'm really looking at the Casa 36" from forno bravo.  Tough to make an informed decision without the ability to test drive the various ovens.

AZ
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jackie Tran on September 07, 2010, 10:31:18 AM
Alexi, I plan on increasing the preheat times to see if there is a difference as I stopped timing the preheat times sometime ago.   Yeah how long a stone takes to heat up and hold it's heat is dependant on its material.   For these types of bakes I use my Primo stone or quarry tiles (2 layers) works well.
I'm not having any issues with the bottom heat, it's the top heat (even though I'm currently less than 2.5" from the heat source.  The bottom of the pie is charring appropriately and there is good oven spring.  Just the leoparding is missing initially, which tells me there is a lack of top heat if heat is indeed 1 of the 2 factors responsible for that extreme leoparding. 

I'm pretty sure lowering the stone won't help my situation.   I noticed that the leoparding appeared when the dough rose into the fire of the broiler.  That tells me that I have to get the stone even closer to the broiler element to bring about the extreme leoparding.  So close that the baked dough will/should rise almost right into the fire.

I did pick up a tip from PizzaBlogger from another thread along the lines of using the convection along with my high heat.  It's quite possible that the convection will make a difference.  I will test it out and post up in a few days. 

As far as the WFO goes, I know very little about them.  I'm just in the research mode right now.  I would like to either build a small one from scratch or get a prefab one on a rolling cart such as member Thezaman.  Of course, the real challenge to building one from scratch (and not using professional plans) is to have all the right components, and have it all come together correctly the first time.   That is a huge feat, since there are usually things you find out at the last minute that weren't planned on.  It's something that I wouldn't be able to get much help or advise on and likely something I would have to go about alone.

Chau
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: ponzu on September 08, 2010, 12:42:36 AM
Chau,

You're probably right about the stone heat being sufficient. 

One way to check on the eveness of your stone temp would be to measure the temp of the bottom of your stone at cooking temp.  If the whole stone hasn't come to temp the bottome might be very much lower temp than your top surface.

The only reason I suspect this is that when my broiler shut off with top heating only the stone dropped temperature very quickly implying to me that a lot of the heat was reflected from the broiler.

This might be important if the dough is cooling the stone after loading the pie.  If that were the case you might not get enough lift on the cornicione which would increase your rim to heat source distance.
(Your cornicione looks pretty well expanded though. So who knows.)

Anyway its all in the name of leoparding science.  Press on!

Alexi
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jackie Tran on September 08, 2010, 09:23:16 PM
I gota feevah, and the only prescription is more leopahding!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyV2cPLuFuA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyV2cPLuFuA)

This afternoon's bake...

Thanks Dellavechia!  You were right! Cold fermented dough, frozen, and thawed did the trick. 
I also decreased the gap between the hearth and broiler to 1.5" AND ran the convection fan (Pizzablogger). 

I tested this new setup with a fairly fermented same day dough, and no spots.  So I would say the biggest factor here is the cold fermentation with freezing and thawing. 

Forgot to say that pie #2 in reply #35 is the SAME dough.  Only difference is that it was kneaded a bit less than this leopard pie and that one was cold fermented for 2 days where as this one was kneaded more and then cold fermented 3 days, frozen 1, and thawed in the fridge another day, so 5 days total. 

Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: ponzu on September 08, 2010, 11:02:35 PM
Problem solved.  Nice job and nice pox!

How was the taste comparison of the 2 pies?

AZ
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jackie Tran on September 08, 2010, 11:12:13 PM
Problem solved.  Nice job and nice pox!

How was the taste comparison of the 2 pies?

AZ

Ahhh Alexi, good question.  One of the first times that I actually truely appreciated the taste of a cold fermented pie.  The 5 day cold ferment was not sour  but did have a complexity to it which was noticeable over the same day dough.  For me I had to pay attention to it when tasting just the rims alone and did several taste test to notice it.  Of course with toppings and sauce, that difference becomes (for me) very negligible.   The texture of the 5 day dough of course was more sourdough bread like while the other one had a lighter texture.   Both were pretty decent though.   Here's a crumb shot of both to see the difference. 

1&2 is the 5 day CF
3 same day dough
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: ponzu on September 08, 2010, 11:23:39 PM
Visually it appears that there is much more structure and oven spring to the CF dough.  The same day appears more bread like.

Amazing how much apppearance correalates with flavor.

AZ
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jackie Tran on September 08, 2010, 11:32:23 PM
Visually it appears that there is much more structure and oven spring to the CF dough.  The same day appears more bread like.

Amazing how much apppearance correalates with flavor.

AZ

Yes - visually that first pic is a bit deceiving.  1, it's blurry and 2, It looks to me very light and airy.  I should have taken more pics of the same day dough.  :-[ CF doughs (for me) always give a bit more of a chew and SD texture which is expected.  I have noticed though that difference is a lot less in my NP short bakes compare to a NY-elite style pie.  For that style, I much prefer the texture of a same day dough. 

As an example of this, I kneaded the [email protected] out of the dough in reply #22.  Then on top of that I did some stretch and folds to trap air and the resulting crumb shows that.  But b/c of the short bake time and low protein of the AP flour, that crumb was very soft, moist, and easy to eat.   Meaning it had very little chew to it.  I was surprise since i had really worked that dough. 

Pictures as we all know can be very deceiving.  Sometimes you can take 3-4 different looking crumb shots off of 1 pizza. 
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: dellavecchia on September 09, 2010, 08:46:04 AM
Nice job Chau! That looks like it came out of a WFO. Excellent crumb as well. Is is amazing that freezing helps with leoparding.

John
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jackie Tran on September 28, 2010, 08:11:28 PM
Finally got the electrical fixed and the oven is working again.  I had one caputo doughball left in the fridge from the first batch out of the new Bosch, so naturally I had to sacrifice him to the oven gods.
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: BrickStoneOven on September 28, 2010, 08:24:49 PM
Chau I bet those spots put a smile on your face. Nice job.
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jackie Tran on September 28, 2010, 08:30:33 PM
Thx David. They did. I had to laugh. I spent nearly 3 wks chasing them down sometimes making dough twice a day.  Today I wasn't even looking for them and they showed up. :-D. I have the magic formula now. :)
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Matthew on September 28, 2010, 09:18:04 PM
Finally got the electrical fixed and the oven is working again.  I had one caputo doughball left in the fridge from the first batch out of the new Bosch, so naturally I had to sacrifice him to the oven gods.

Same pie, different angles.





Money!  Nice job.

Matt
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: andreguidon on September 28, 2010, 09:20:31 PM
WOW Chau the pie looks great... any secrets ?
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jackie Tran on September 28, 2010, 09:30:28 PM
 :-D I was just kidding about magic formulas.  For this pie, well kneaded caputo dough, 4 day cold ferment (dough should double while CF'ing), and high temps.

Here's a big giveaway. Look at any well leoparded rim, take out the spots and tell me what color the rim is.  How do you get that color and what does it mean?   ;)

So we've gone from frozen dough to a 4 day cold ferment.
My next challenge will be to do this without cold fermenting. 
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jackie Tran on September 28, 2010, 09:55:58 PM
whoops...I forgot.  Here are 2 secret ingredients Andre.  :P
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: ponzu on September 28, 2010, 11:44:27 PM
What's your message chau,  oxidation?  overkneading?

AZ
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jackie Tran on September 29, 2010, 12:04:19 AM
What's your message chau,  oxidation?  overkneading?

AZ

Alexi, NY water and magic dust. Just kidding.  Yes if you read Toby's nearlypolitan thread, he mentions that he kneaded the crap out of the dough.  I believe that's 1/3 of the equation. The other 2 variables have been mentioned already.  Toby, I believe has posted that he can get the spots without cold fermenting.

Alexi give it a try and let me know.
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jet_deck on September 29, 2010, 12:31:11 AM
If you get a chance, I would like to see the bottom of the pizza's that have brought you so much happiness.  Congrats on your find, its probably not for me, but I am excited for you none the less.  ;D :chef: :pizza: :chef:
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: ponzu on September 29, 2010, 12:34:08 AM
Alexi, NY water and magic dust. Just kidding.  Yes if you read Toby's nearlypolitan thread, he mentions that he kneaded the crap out of the dough.  I believe that's 1/3 of the equation. The other 2 variables have been mentioned already.  Toby, I believe has posted that he can get the spots without cold fermenting.

Chau,

I guess my question is, when you referred to the white non spotted portion of the cornicione, what were you alluding to?

Also I forgot to give you props on your beautiful pie.  

How many minutes did it bake for.  Was the crumb at all tough from over kneading?

AZ
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jackie Tran on September 29, 2010, 12:49:05 AM
If you get a chance, I would like to see the bottom of the pizza's that have brought you so much happiness.  Congrats on your find, its probably not for me, but I am excited for you none the less.  ;D :chef: :pizza: :chef:

JD - I usually take a lot of photos but not this time.  The bottom looked very much like the pie shown in reply #1 that is folded over.  White with some charring.   The whole leoparding bit was more or less just a personal challenge I set for myself.  I think the look is cool and wanted to learn how to do it.  I asked around but got limited answers and basically kept at it till I could do it.  The other reason for wanting to achieve it is that I had hope it would teach me somethings about dough.  I wanted a bit deeper understanding of what really causes it.  You can read conflicting info on the forum about any given topic and until you actually experiment and find out, you can't really know for sure.   

I'm not necessarily in love with pies that have extreme leoparding, I'm just happy at the fact that I kept after it until I could conquer it and maybe understand it better. 

Chau
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jackie Tran on September 29, 2010, 01:07:37 AM
Chau,

I guess my question is, when you referred to the white non spotted portion of the cornicione, what were you alluding to?

Also I forgot to give you props on your beautiful pie.  

How many minutes did it bake for.  Was the crumb at all tough from over kneading?

AZ

Thanks for the props.  I was simply alluding to the fact that I noted that all the heavily leoparded rims I've seen, the dough is usually white (not always but usually).  If you look at the first pie in this thread it was made with caputo as well and notice it is not as white and has less leoparding.  Also in my thread "finally caught a break with caputo" those first pies are made with caputo as well.  Note the color and the abscence of leoparding.  Member glutenboy even asked if those first ones had sugar in the formulation b/c of the coloring of the rim.  They were broiled in the same fashion as these heavily leoparded pies.    I was just saying that I believe that a well oxidated dough was part of the formula for heavy leoparding especially since Toby mentioned the same thing in his thread under his methods section.

The crumb was not tough at all.  This is the same dough from the first batch out of the Bosch whereby I mixed it for 20mins or so on speed 1.  That's the same dough baked up in Bill's WFO.  The only difference is that this one had another 1.5d of CF'ing.   As far as bake times, I've stopped timing these bakes but they are usually around 45s - 1 min until the bottom gets the desired spotting.  then the pie is pulled out and rimmed.  When i pulled this one out, the top of the cornicione had some spotting already.   i rimmed it to get the outer edge and was surprise to see the spots come out then. 

The crumb was very moist and soft despite overkneading.   This is consistent with post #24 where I over kneaded by hand and still got a soft crumb.  I think (i don't know for sure) that this is due to the short bake times and the high moisture content in the crumb.  This keeps it from drying out and having a dry leather texture. 

BTW, let's compare this pie to the one I baked in Bill's WFO since both are from the same batch.  Night and day difference with the WFO baked pie being much much better.  Different texture = different taste completely.  These probably have the texture and taste of a more traditional NP meaning softer crumb, not crunch to skin.  Where as the pie baked in Bill's WFO tasted a bit more like an elite NY'er with the skin being a bit more crisp and the texture having a bit more chew and not quite as moist. 
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: ponzu on September 29, 2010, 01:19:07 AM
Very nice answer Chau.  Lot's of food for thought. 

I am picking your brain because you have obviously thought deeply about this pursuit and paid your dues in the form of many many bakes.

One final question, in your mind what causes the oxidation of a developing dough?

Is is whipping air into a wet dough (giving credence to scott r's egg beater hypothesis)?  is it the speed or length of mixing?  Is it length of fermentation?

How does the freezing and thawing of dough play into this theory?  do ice crystals cause perforations in the gluten matrix allowing for more air movement within the dough?

In other words If you wanted to oxidize the hell out of a dough what would you do?

Thanks,

AZ
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jackie Tran on September 29, 2010, 01:47:18 AM
Very nice answer Chau.  Lot's of food for thought. 

I am picking your brain because you have obviously thought deeply about this pursuit and paid your dues in the form of many many bakes.

One final question, in your mind what causes the oxidation of a developing dough?

Is is whipping air into a wet dough (giving credence to scott r's egg beater hypothesis)?  is it the speed or length of mixing?  Is it length of fermentation?

How does the freezing and thawing of dough play into this theory?  do ice crystals cause perforations in the gluten matrix allowing for more air movement within the dough?

In other words If you wanted to oxidize the hell out of a dough what would you do?

Thanks,

AZ


 :-D  Good questions Alexi.  First off, I don't purport to know all the answers.  I just read, try to understand, use what makes sense, experiment, re-experiment, experiment some more, and then make some wild hypotheses. :-D

What causes oixdation of the dough? Oxygen.  Incorporating oxygen oxidizes the dough.
Is it whipping air into a wet dough?   possibly.  Whipping air into a dough is one way of doing it but not the only way.  You can oxidize a dough through gentle hand kneading.  I have done it many times before.
Is it the speed or length of mixing?  Yes for speed but not necessarily.  Time of knead would depend on the speed used.  Think about this.  How fast or vigorous you knead a dough (depending on it's protein content) can affect the end texture (ie crumb).   You can oxidize a dough through gentle or vigorous kneading and end up with a different texture for each technique.
Is it length of fermentation?  Yes but how long is relative.  Recall (or go back and read) during my initial Bosch test where I mixed up the first batch of dough using caputo.  I was disappointed that the dough didn't seem to get ultra white even after 20min of kneading.  The color had lightened but it wasn't ultra white.  However, after the 6 hour proof, the color had gotten much whiter but not ultra white.  After cold fermenting for several days, it got ultra white.   You can achieve that color through kneading and/or prolonged fermentation.  Remember, cold fermetation is still fermentation, it is just slowed way down.   So I don't believe cold fermentation is absolutely necessary.  This is how and why some folks have reported getting heavy leoparding without cold fermentation.  For example Matt's post in reply #42.

How does freezing and thawing play into this? I honestly don't know other than it's another form of fermenting (really slow cold fermentation? ???).  It's possible without freezing and thawing.  That's one way to do it but not the only way.  There maybe a lot of biochemical stuff going on with freezing and thawing that I don't understand.  For now, I'm keeping it really simple in my mind by saying that it's really 3 factors:
-oxidize dough
-overfermentation (whether you get there by bus, train, or plane)
-high heat

If I wanted to oxidize the hell out of a dough how would i do it?
Well there's a couple of ways...
-whip the heck out of it, or overknead the dough.
-overferment it (long ferments at room temps, cold ferments, freezing, or any combination of the 3 as long as the dough is overfermented)

This is about as much as I understand at this point in replicating the leoparding.  Alexi if you want to try and get leoparding in the rim, take one of your overfermented doughs and stretch it out on your metal peel and rim it under the broiler.  Don't bake the dough first.  Just stick it under intense heat and report back.   It may not be edible but it should give you some ideas.

Chau
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Pete-zza on September 29, 2010, 12:47:06 PM
According to Professor Raymond Calvel, in his book The Taste of Bread, it is the combined effects of increased mixing speed and cumulative mixing time that brings on the phenomenon of dough oxidation. You need both. For example, if the mixing speed is high but the mixing time is short, the length of the time that the dough is in contact with atmospheric oxygen is short, so the oxidation of the dough can be minimal or nonexistent. Professor Calvel noted that a high level of oxidation is achieved whenever:

1) intensive mixing methods are used,
2) bean flour or other oxidizing additives are present,
3) salt addition is delayed until late in the mixing process, and
4) a large portion of the dough is continually in contact with atmospheric oxygen
(Source: page 30 of The Taste of Bread)

Professor Calvel believed that the above practices resulted in an artificial maturation of the dough, and there is perhaps nothing that rankled Professor Calvel more than French bakers who used such methods. Negative side effects of such practices included a bleaching of the dough and destruction of carotenoids, with a resulting bleaching of the crumb and a "lessening and general deterioration of the taste of the bread." Prof. Calvel noted that the "delicate flavors of the flour's caretenoid pigments are lost through oxidation." Elsewhere, he described the carotenoids as "flavor carriers". So, clearly, he did not favor overoxidation of the dough.

I do not recall reading anywhere that overfermentation will result in overoxidation of the dough. I am not saying that it does not happen, only that I have not read of that effect anywhere. If I had, I think it would have registered since I have been studying the effects of oxidation on dough for a long time.

Freezing of dough stops the fermentation process. There may be some small amount of fermentation as a dough starts to cool down but it stops completely when it freezes. That means that there is no carbon dioxide produced and no ethyl alcohol and no related conversion processes that are responsible for the flavor, aroma, color or texture of the finished crust and crumb. Once the dough is allowed to thaw, then the fermentation process is resuscitated. Freezing dough actually causes more damage to the yeast as the ice particles expand and pierce the yeast. Commercial producers of frozen dough balls compensate for the destruction of the yeast by significantly increasing the amount of yeast used in the dough at the outset. They also take measures to protect the gluten structure, as by using a stronger flour, adding more salt to strengthen and stabilize the dough, and adding oil to improve the rheology and plasticity of the dough and protect the gluten. There are also a wide range of additives that can be used for similar purposes. 

Peter
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: ponzu on September 29, 2010, 05:24:36 PM
Petezza,

as usual you are an encyclopedia pizzanica.  Thank you for you post.  It highlighted several possible inconsistencies in the unified theory of leoparding.

1. What does freezing have to do with "oxidation?"
2. How does a process that produces no oxigen ( ie fermentation) contribute to oxygenation.

It seems to me "gas filled" might be a more apt description of a leopard prone skin than "oxidized."

perhaps a highly yeasted dough would be a good test of this principle.  ie does a short fermentation time with a lot of co2 formation cause leoparding?

pizza is profound.
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: utahdave on September 29, 2010, 09:45:22 PM
Make sure you're not confusing oxidation with oxygenation.  Chemically speaking, "oxidation" is the loss of an electron and is a chemical reaction with "reduction" or addition of an electron.  This reaction can occur with or without oxygen.  Freezing slows down chemical reactions.  Therefore a cold environment will slow down all chemical reactions, hence freezing will slow or stop oxidation as well as fermentation.
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jackie Tran on September 29, 2010, 10:08:59 PM
Thanks for the informative post Peter.  Good to know that salt is added late in the mixing process in order to aid in oxygenation of the dough.   Also good to know that oxidation of the dough leads to an artificial maturation.  That seems to be consistent with the ideas that a mature dough (white rim) is often seen in heavily leoparded rims.

Jeffrey Hamelman wrote of the same ideas of oxidation destroying the carotenoids and that it is undesireable in bread baking.   He said what is desireable is to achieve a balance between under and over kneading.  I don't know how many pizzerias are aware of these concepts or even subscribe to them.  It would seem that an observation of the finished crumb shows that many pizzerias do indeed overknead the dough and add oil for the softening affects.  Neapolitan pizzas seem almost characteristic in their ultra white bleached dough.  

As far as fermentation leading to further oxidation of the dough, I was really just reporting what I observed in that particular batch.  I believe you and Alexi are correct that it does not.  I had my doubts even while typing that particular statement.   A possible explanation is that during cold fermentation, the water that is release may possibly give the dough a whiter appearance?  Again, not quite sure what is going on but I did observe a color change from the mixed dough to the bulk fermented dough, and then post cold fermentation.  The dough was noticeable and significantly whiter after cold fermentation.  This observation lead me to concluding that fermentation must somehow play a part in oxidation, but again I had my doubts as well as it really didn't seem to make logical sense.

Alexi, I agree that we don't really know exactly where and how the leopard spots come from.  At this point it is just a unified theory.  There are numerous post that they come from cold fermented doughs and then there are posts that say it can be done with room fermented doughs.  My speculation has always been that it had more to do with overall overfermenation rather than the temperature of fermentaiton (ie cold or freezing of the dough).   I just happened to reproduced John's results by freezing the dough.  Perhaps that dough would have developed leopard spots just as well without the freezing and thawing as it was an overfermented dough to begin with.  

An interesting test to see if freezing has any effect on spotting is to not overknead a dough and then freeze it soon after kneading.  Thawed and baked as soon as it is thawed  (not allowing the dough to overferment) using the same broiler method that has proven to give the spots previously.  That should provide some sort of answer.  

Your theory that a gas filled dough rather than an oxidize dough should be easy to test as well.  Mix 2 batches of dough, 1 with minimal kneading and the 2nd with an exaggerated over kneading.  Allow both to proof up to double or triple and the again use the broiler method.  This should show whether it truely is a gas filled dough or an overkneaded gas filled dough.  

You can also repeat the experiment with the same amount of yeast but this time allow the doughs to proof for double the time use previously.  This will give us an idea as to whether overfermentation plays a role or not and perhaps to what extent.  

I'm not sure that these experiments are exactly scientific but they can be easily done provided the time and motivation.  There are 100 experiments I would love to do but unable to do them all myself.  I really just do the ones that interest me most.   For the time being though and having achieved the once elusive leoparded rim, I am satisfied to put these test on hold as I really need to focus on doing some homework for my WFO.  Thanks for any interest and participation.

Chau
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: ponzu on September 29, 2010, 11:50:05 PM
Good points all Chau.

I am asking so many questions about terms such as "oxidation" and "oxygenation" not to try to nit pick, or even to accurately define the term.  Rather I am trying to better understand your findings in your excellent experiments. 

I guess I would summarize the findings as such:  there are several factors which cause whitening of the dough; overkneeding, overfermenting and freezing and thawing the dough.  In your experience white dough leopards well.

I sincerely hope that you were not offended by any of my comments or questions.  They were all written with out of respect and curiosity. 

I feel I have learned so much from this thread, both from your comments and others.

Please keep up the excellent work.

AZ
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jackie Tran on September 30, 2010, 12:21:20 AM
Alexi I was not offended at all.  I really appreciate all of your comments and participation.  I tend to be a bit laxed on definitions and details and tend to jump to conclusions from time to time.  So I'm always thankful for any corrections or requests for clarification.

Thank you for the many kind remarks.  Your consideration and warm remarks are evident in your posts.

Cheers,
Chau
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: StrayBullet on September 30, 2010, 01:34:55 PM
Your theory that a gas filled dough rather than an oxidize dough should be easy to test as well.  Chau

This caught my attention since I had just sat down with Peter Taylor yesterday for a few minutes and I watched him form the ball he gave me, trapping a LOT of air inside that ball.....his pies definitely had leoparding :)
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Pete-zza on September 30, 2010, 02:19:35 PM
I think it is important to keep in mind that a lot of what we know about making pizza dough comes from the bread side. But that doesn't mean that we have to use all of the principles, including many of the artisan methods, that have been passed on from the bread side to the pizza side, whether it is autloyse, stretch and folds, preferments, natural starters, no-knead, and so on. Bread dough in its final form--usually a loaf of some form--has a different form factor than a flat pizza crust. I think we should feel free to use whatever methods produce the results we are after, no matter where they derive from. So, if someone is more interested in a particular final crust texture than flavor, then why should it matter that the carotenoids are destroyed by excessive oxidation of the dough? The French bakers that Prof. Calvel railed against did essentially that. They used the intensive mixing methods along with additives to make soft, high-volume breads with white looking crumbs with tight cells and little taste. By the time they were done, they all had fancy fast-speed mixers.

Peter

Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: ponzu on October 03, 2010, 12:02:31 AM
This caught my attention since I had just sat down with Peter Taylor yesterday for a few minutes and I watched him form the ball he gave me, trapping a LOT of air inside that ball.....his pies definitely had leoparding :)

Stray,

I would love your description of how Peter Taylor now forms his balls.  Has it changed ftom this you tube video?

http://www.youtube.com/user/pftaylor#p/u/2/z3vUSCR-_uQ

AZ
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: StrayBullet on October 03, 2010, 11:17:32 AM
Stray,

I would love your description of how Peter Taylor now forms his balls.  Has it changed ftom this you tube video?

http://www.youtube.com/user/pftaylor#p/u/2/z3vUSCR-_uQ

AZ

Hey AZ,

I can't really speak to how he's forming balls currently as I wasn't there when he formed them for proofing.  What I can pass along is what I saw him do in front of me at the end of lunch service :)

It was more of a tuck-n-fold ala Silence of the Lambs ;D  It was very fast and gentle if that can be said.  Left hand more or less held the ball in place, while with the right he stretched then tucked the fold into the dough....rotated and repeated a few times.  He even commented on how "heavy" the ball was due to trapping air inside.

Hope this helps!

Mark
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: pizzablogger on October 03, 2010, 05:05:49 PM
To those with electrical ovens/"coiled" broiler heating elements: Is the heat along the coil pretty much even throughout for the most part?

I am curious to try an electric oven out......and think it may be better for this application, being that the flame broiler in my oven has such a variable temperature (flame varies from 770° to 950°F along the full area of the flame) and the electric coil takes away the risk that a flame will "lick" downwards into your pizzas while cooking, which can result in all sorts of nasty things! :)

Been several weeks since I have made pizza.....I wish my schedule would allow me to make it on a more regular basis.

Tested a new configuration for using nothing but the broiler for cooking. Also tried a new kneading technique ("knuckles kneading") for kicks and the Neapolitan slap technique for shaping.

http://il.youtube.com/watch?v=zrMYLg_9Tpc

I'll give the two test pizzas I made today (I have almost no toppings at the moment!) a C+ or B-.......need to work on positioning and turning the pizzas to get a more even heat distribution, which varies by as much as 200°F depending on what part of the reflective plate the flame is bouncing down from. You can see the variance of heat by the darker and lighter areas on the cornicione. Will dial this new set up in and post pics of the improved pies later.

Loving the pics of everyones progress in this thread!

Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jackie Tran on October 03, 2010, 08:55:11 PM
PB, you did a really nice job.  The first pie looks like it came from a WFO.  What type of flour did you use?
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: pizzablogger on October 03, 2010, 09:15:34 PM
PB, you did a really nice job.  The first pie looks like it came from a WFO.  What type of flour did you use?

Thanks Chau. Those pies used Caputo Pizzeria flour.
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: pizzablogger on October 07, 2010, 09:48:50 AM
Crumb is getting better, but not satisfied yet with the whole pizza. It needs to be lighter, more airy.

Need much better even distribution of heat, drab nabbit.

Back to the drawing board.

Ruby: smoked mozzarella, taleggio, sea salt, olive oil, brined fresh kale, lemon juice

pizza went fast by the time the camera came out.....last slice!

Grade: B

(disclosure: the crumb on the right sided picture had a pin flashlight shined onto it when taking the picture in order to brighten the crumb for my future reference and comparisons)
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: NY pizzastriver on October 07, 2010, 09:58:32 AM
Just spotted this thread for the 1st time and I have a question. Fibrament says never broil their stone. They also say the stone is fired at 2500 degrees and to clean it put it on cleaning cycle. Since we know that's 1000 degrees, and it's fired at 2500, why can't you do this method by broiling a Fibrament stone???

Amazing looking pies, especially considering no starter and AP flour! I'd love to find a way to do this.


EDIT: 2 1/2 days later...

Ok then, Never mind!  :-X
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jackie Tran on October 10, 2010, 06:24:38 PM

EDIT: 2 1/2 days later...

Ok then, Never mind!  :-X

That's how I usually feel. lol.   :-D 

NYPS - Thxs for the compliment.  I don't have a fibrament stone so really I shouldn't even try to answer your question but...obviously if the manufacture says don't do it, then they can't guarantee it won't fail if you use it in a fashion outside their recommendations.

Having said that, I can't see why you couldn't use it under the broiler at those temps of 800-900F.   I can't see it being a dangerous situation.  Worse case scenario, the stone cracks and you learn from your mistake.  I'm willing to bet it will do just fine.   It actually should perform quite well given that it is a relatively low conducting stone (from what I've read).  It should be a bit more lenient as far as the bottom of the pie charring. 

My recommendations? Crank the broiler full blast and post up the results.  But I like to push the envelope and see what can and can't really be done :P
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: pizzablogger on October 17, 2010, 07:26:37 AM
Getting really frustrated with my oven.

Broiler started behaving badly again.....flare ups, uneven heat, flames licking down onto the pizza....latest tinkerings and I felt like I was a step behind the whole way.

Burnt the pizza in a few spots and got more of a New York-Neapolitan coal fired oven look to it than I wanted. A shame, since the pizza tasted delicious.

Back to the drawing board....don't think I'll be happy until I get a wood burner and some approximation of reliably high temperatures and better heat distribution.
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jackie Tran on October 17, 2010, 07:45:13 AM
PB I can completely relate to your fustrations with the home oven bake.  However my ultimate goal is to approximate a WFO bake in the home oven.  Sound impossible?  Maybe not. Well, it will never be the same but how close can we get it?

Also I'm as picky as any pizza making fool, and that's a great looking pie.  Obvioulsy for a lighter looking crumb just pull it from the broiler a few seconds sooner with each pass of the rim and you are there.  Any crumb shots?  If at some point in the future, If I can get the appropriate ovenspring and crumb structure out of the home oven, I may just forgo my plans for a WFO.  Keep the dream alive and keep those pies coming!
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: dellavecchia on October 17, 2010, 08:33:44 AM
I am in awe of the results you and other such as Chau are getting in a home oven. They are nearly identical to WFO pizzas - and probably taste just as good if not better (you are all seasoned pros).

John
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: thezaman on October 17, 2010, 12:44:33 PM
pb these are the first pies i have seen from you ,the look fantastic . is that caputo dough ?
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: thezaman on October 17, 2010, 12:54:59 PM
sorry pb i didn't read the posts above about caputo.
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: ponzu on October 17, 2010, 01:15:16 PM
PB

For what it's worth I give your pies an A in the looks department.  They are truly stunning.  They have a Neapolitan look with a really springy and non gummy appearing crumb.

In my experience the difficulty of this Neapolitan rimming technique is the unevenness of the crumb level of doneness even when the top Looks evenly charred.

Anyway keep up the great work and I look forward to your posts.

AZ
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: pizzablogger on October 17, 2010, 08:05:52 PM
Thanks for the compliments everyone.

@Chau: No crumb shots. Made this as part of a pizza tasting of 6 pizzas and peeps were clamoring to get into each pizza. Between juggling with making pizzas and stuff, I didn't take many photos at all. Crumb was good though....airy and light.


I made my first potato pizza (yukon gold potatoes, salt, olive oil, taleggio, thyme, cracked black pepper) and it won't be my last. Anyone else tinker with potatoes on pizzas yet? --K
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: gtsum2 on October 17, 2010, 09:29:59 PM
potato pizza????????
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: pizzablogger on October 17, 2010, 10:29:44 PM
potato pizza????????


It's been on the menu of Serious Pie for quite some time, not to mention other places:

http://tomdouglas.com/index.php/restaurants/serious-pie/serious-pie-menu/serious-pie-pizza

Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Pete-zza on October 18, 2010, 12:23:13 AM
Anyone else tinker with potatoes on pizzas yet?

Kelly,

Quite a few, actually: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12052.msg112949.html#msg112949.

Peter
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jackie Tran on October 19, 2010, 11:50:07 AM

In my experience the difficulty of this Neapolitan rimming technique is the unevenness of the crumb level of doneness even when the top Looks evenly charred.


I absolutely agree.   I'm going to work on a formulation to correct that if possible.  I have some ideas that I hope will work.  ???
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jackie Tran on December 23, 2010, 12:38:22 PM
I absolutely agree.   I'm going to work on a formulation to correct that if possible.  I have some ideas that I hope will work.  ???

Made one last night that was pretty good.  Definitely an improvement but not quite up to my high expectations.
Also used Ambrosi Bufala on it and this cheese was excellent. 

Chau

Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: pizzablogger on December 24, 2010, 12:56:32 PM
Chau, that looks hot to trot on this end....your crumb shots always look very good at their worst and incredible at their best.

What is it exactly that you were looking for that failed to meet your expectations?

The Bufala does look good....no browning on it, so the fat content must be spot on.

I'd hit that pie any day of the week! Great stuff as always from you. --K   :chef:

Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jackie Tran on December 24, 2010, 02:05:07 PM
Thanks for the nice words PB.  I am perhaps my toughest critic and my worse enemy.    From my poor memory, this dough was a slowly fermented dough with a small amount of IDY.   I wanted it to have a bit more character in the leoparding or charring department and was a bit disappointed they didn't pay me a visit this time. 

I was pleased that I was able to lower the hydration and dry out the crumb a bit, so a move in the right direction.   I failed to knead this dough enough and therefore really didn't develop the gluten sufficiently.  I know the crumb may not show that but I baked his twin in the MBE and the spring was not there as it should.  The doughs opened up way too easily, more so than ideal to me. 

I must believe I can make a perfect NP pie in the home oven but sadly I am not there yet.  I imagine a pie with a soft, light, & aerated crumb with just the right amount of moistness - like a good fresh warm bread ought to be.  With just a thin shell of crust adorned with a modest amount of char/leoparding.  There are many uncertainties for me at this point in time.   Sometimes to the point that I do not honestly know if I will ever reach my goal.  Maybe it doesn't have to be perfect, but enough for me to honestly say that I have done the best I can with what I have.  That this is as good as it gets.  I so want to be there, but am not yet.   :(

I do not know if I can achieve such a pie with caputo 00 alone or if it requires a companion flour.   I do not know if it's my lack of ability in working with 00 flour.  I do not know if it is my lack of a WFO that has been the source of many unsuccesful attempts.   I do not if it is my lack of skill, knowledge, or understanding that has stumped me thus far.  With so many unknowns, this is my struggle but I refuse to give up hope and must press on.   

Chau
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jackie Tran on January 18, 2011, 12:37:09 AM
Probably my closest effort yet in a home oven setting.

Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: andreguidon on January 18, 2011, 04:21:44 AM
WOW !! love the CRUMB !! they look perfect... was this made in the BUP ?
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: dellavecchia on January 18, 2011, 06:53:25 AM
WOW +1. Unbelievable. What flour was used on this one?

John
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jet_deck on January 18, 2011, 07:33:07 AM
Probably my closest effort yet in a home oven setting.

Have you cooked this exact dough in the MBE yet?  Looks like a stellar result for any oven.
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Tscarborough on January 18, 2011, 08:53:30 AM
A lovely pie, but how did it Taste?
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jackie Tran on January 18, 2011, 11:35:25 AM
WOW !! love the CRUMB !! they look perfect... was this made in the BUP ?

Thanks guys, I appreciate it!   Yes - mixed in BUP.  I find it too time consuming to hand knead high hydration low protein floured doughs. 

WOW +1. Unbelievable. What flour was used on this one?

John

John this one was made with 100% AP flour.  An accidental pie.  This dough was destined for a french baguette experiment.   Dough was really too slack during the dividing and balling stage for a baguette and decided to turn the dough into pizza dough.   Consequently it opened up beautifully like real NP dough.  Made one tiny baguette which turned out crappy, but the pies were decent. lol

Have you cooked this exact dough in the MBE yet?  Looks like a stellar result for any oven.

Made 2 pies.  The first one was cooked in the MBE.  The bottom burned a bit but it had a bigger and airier spring to the rim.  I thought I had overfermented the dough  b/c of the burning but forgot that I had added 1% sugar to the recipe since it was suppose to be an experimental bread formulation.   I figured I could control the burning on the bottom a bit better in the home oven, plus the dough opened up so nice I figured if there ever was a dough that should be tested in the home oven, it was this one.  Glad I did.  Next time though, no sugar and MBE baked!  Gene, I thought how several of the crumb pics look like those Verasano pies you posted recently.  :P

A lovely pie, but how did it Taste?

Ate pretty good.  The crumb was tender and moist, soft, with a slight chew.  Like how I think a NP pie should taste.  I topped it with some mediocre sauce and old bufala cheese and had no basil.  Not my favorite crust but was acceptable to my standards.   :-D

A better crust for me would be the same dough but baked out longer to get a crispier crust on rim and bottom.   

Chau
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: TXCraig1 on January 18, 2011, 11:57:13 AM
Beautiful crust on that pie Chau. You never cease to impress.

Proves my point that you can do great things with AP flour.

What was the cook time - 3.5 min?

Craig
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jackie Tran on January 18, 2011, 02:12:28 PM
Beautiful crust on that pie Chau. You never cease to impress.

Proves my point that you can do great things with AP flour.

What was the cook time - 3.5 min?

Craig

Thank you Craig.  It's really hard to estimate the bake time using the home oven and broiler method.  I think the pie gets about 1 min on the stone and then turned to rim the cornicione against the broiler.  I'm guessing around a 2.5m bake but that may not be accurate. 

The best pies I've made have been 75/25  00/HG.   This really got me to thinking about your comments (and other members) about AP flour.  Once I get my technique down, I will do a shoot out between caputo and AP.  How close of a result can I get to caputo?   I think Larry mentioned that the results get closer as the length of fermentation is extended, or something like that.   

Right now caputo cost me 6x more than AP flour.   If the results are pretty close, I may just be making pies with AP BUT flour is pretty cheap compared to tomatoes and cheese so caputo may be worth it after all. 

Chau
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: foolishpoolish on January 18, 2011, 09:55:29 PM
Bloody hell Chau! - that pie is incredible.  Crumb, cornicione, everything. I think you've pretty much hit it spot-on. 
Regarding kneading/mixing time and gluten development - they're not synonymous. One can certainly lead to the other but I would say flour type and hydration (and salt levels) are far too significant as factors to make a direct correlation between the two. Two doughs developed using different kneading/resting regimens can achieve the same *level* of gluten development but have contrasting textures/crumb...it's less about "level" of gluten development but rather HOW gluten was developed.
But meh that's just more theory waffle... :D Whatever you're doing - it's working! Amazing!
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jackie Tran on January 19, 2011, 12:43:06 PM
Bloody hell Chau! - that pie is incredible.  Crumb, cornicione, everything. I think you've pretty much hit it spot-on. 
Regarding kneading/mixing time and gluten development - they're not synonymous. One can certainly lead to the other but I would say flour type and hydration (and salt levels) are far too significant as factors to make a direct correlation between the two. Two doughs developed using different kneading/resting regimens can achieve the same *level* of gluten development but have contrasting textures/crumb...it's less about "level" of gluten development but rather HOW gluten was developed.
But meh that's just more theory waffle... :D Whatever you're doing - it's working! Amazing!


Thanks Toby, that's high praise coming from you, King of the Nearlypolitan.   :D  I agree that simiilar levels of gluten development can be affected by many variables and achieved with different equipment and workflows.  I'm also learning now that how the gluten is developed "seemingly" makes a difference.  This is a huge gray area for me as there is a lot here I do not understand...yet. 

Do you have any good sources or reading materials that discusses how gluten development affects the end product?  How gluten should be developed for best results? Are there good books that cover this topic specifically? 

Thanks,
Chau
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: dellavecchia on January 19, 2011, 03:26:02 PM
Chau - I have always wanted to buy this book, but have never pulled the trigger. Supposedly, there is 30 page section on flour and a ton of info on the science of gluten and fermentation.

John

http://www.amazon.com/Advanced-Bread-Pastry-Michel-Suas/dp/141801169X/?tag=pizzamaking-20 (http://www.amazon.com/Advanced-Bread-Pastry-Michel-Suas/dp/141801169X/?tag=pizzamaking-20)
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jackie Tran on January 19, 2011, 03:32:47 PM
Chau - I have always wanted to buy this book, but have never pulled the trigger. Supposedly, there is 30 page section on flour and a ton of info on the science of gluten and fermentation.

John

http://www.amazon.com/Advanced-Bread-Pastry-Michel-Suas/dp/141801169X/?tag=pizzamaking-20 (http://www.amazon.com/Advanced-Bread-Pastry-Michel-Suas/dp/141801169X/?tag=pizzamaking-20)

Thanks John, Nina recommended that book to me recently.  It seems to get nothing but good reviews.  I wonder if any other members have this and might give us a quick review.

Chau
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: foolishpoolish on January 20, 2011, 01:22:06 AM
Ditto what John said. I have the AB&P book and yes it basically covers the course material taught at the SFBI. The first chapter or so in the bread making section covers mixing techniques and the effects of intensive, short, improved mixes.
The book is quite big and not cheap esp. if all you want is info on bread (it covers pastry and sugarcraft as well).

You can get a good idea of the various approaches and history of mixing dough (but please bear in mind this is for making bread rather than pizza) in this excellent 3 page article covering the BBGA class taught by Lionel Vatinet (not to be confused with Bertinet!):

http://modern-baking.com/bread_pastry/mixing-methods-making-1109/index.html

Note: it requires registration but I believe it's free.


Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: foolishpoolish on January 20, 2011, 01:26:34 AM
Didier Rosada mentions the techniques in this SFBI newsletter from 2007:

http://www.sfbi.com/FileUpload/files/SFBINewsSUM07.pdf
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jackie Tran on January 20, 2011, 03:03:12 AM
Thanks Toby.  Good read.  That has already helped explained a lot of things I have been putting together on my own.   

Chau
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: dellavecchia on January 20, 2011, 03:08:14 AM
Didier Rosada mentions the techniques in this SFBI newsletter from 2007:

http://www.sfbi.com/FileUpload/files/SFBINewsSUM07.pdf

Toby - This was fantastic. Thanks for the link. It sheds light on the correct things I am doing, and the wrong things I am doing in some pizza workflows. Everyone who uses the Tartine Bread method will also find this a very interesting read.

John
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Pete-zza on January 20, 2011, 09:13:32 AM
As Lydia mentioned to the forum back in 2007, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5478.msg46229/topicseen.html#msg46229, there is actually a Part 1 to the Didier Rosada article on how to develop a formula, at http://www.sfbi.com/pdfs/SFBINewsWI07.pdf. Another good SFBI article by Didier Rosada, on dough strength, can be found at http://www.sfbi.com/pdfs/NewsF04a.pdf. Throw in Rosada's articles on the use of preferments at http://web.archive.org/web/20040814193817/cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food3_apr2004.htm and at http://web.archive.org/web/20050829015510/www.cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food4_dec2004.htm, and the material on baking at the theartisan.net website at http://www.theartisan.net/index.html, and one has a very nice little library at only the cost of printer paper. I would imagine that the Tartine Bread book by Chad Robertson also dovetails nicely with the other writings mentioned above.

What is also not generally known is that several of the forum's dough calculating tools at http://www.pizzamaking.com/dough_tools.html can also be used for making, modifying and formulating bread doughs as well as pizza doughs. For this purpose, one would use the Dough Weight option.

BTW, Jeff Yankellow, who is mentioned in the article referenced by Toby at http://modern-baking.com/bread_pastry/mixing-methods-making-1109/index.html#, was also formerly with the SFBI.

Peter

Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: norma427 on January 20, 2011, 11:27:36 AM
Chau,

Since this is your thread, I hope you don’t mind me posting this here. 

I was reading about sfspanky (Brian Spangler) and saw some of his comments he made on Slice.  He recommended using the autolyse method when making dough and also posted: more than beyond 2% salt inhibits the gassing power of the yeast as well as acid production.

http://www.seriouseats.com/user/profile/Brian%20Spangler

If you click on more comments by Brian Spangler you can also see what else he posted.

Norma
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jackie Tran on January 20, 2011, 12:01:54 PM
Peter and Norma.  Thank you very much for the added info.  The more the better.   Peter, the article you posted on Dough Strength by Didier is an Excellent article on the many variables that affect dough strength and the need to find a balance between elasticity and extensibility for a good bread product. 

This is what I have been looking for.   I will have to read it several times over to really absorb the info.  Norma, FWIW any can freely post in anyone of the threads I've started with anything remotely related to the topic at hand.   I'm sure the information, no matter how trivial it may seem will be of help to someone somewhere.   Thank you again for your contributions. 

Chau
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: pizzablogger on January 20, 2011, 03:21:02 PM
Late to the party as usual, but Wow +3 on that pizza Chau! :) Looks spot on...you are quite the crumb master as well.

I also own the ABP book and think the breadmaking topics covered in the book have helped me significantly.

But, the Rosada stuff Peter linked to covers a lot of salient information. The SFBI website in general, the Newsletter Archive and Resources sections in particular, are a wealth of information when you dig into it.

Great links and pointing people to that site Peter and awesome looking pies Chau. Inspiring...need to find some time to make pizza this weekend.

BTW, Toby, that profile picture is completely ridiculous (in a good way...drool) --K

Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: parallei on January 20, 2011, 03:49:03 PM
Great pies Chau ;D
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jackie Tran on January 20, 2011, 04:04:56 PM
Thanks PB and Parellei!  I'll keep at it.  I know which bread book to get next. 

Chau
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: wucactus1 on April 17, 2011, 10:47:56 PM
( In advance, sorry for grammatical errors and the hastiness of this post no time to edit ;) )
In the midst of writing my 9 page paper on pulp fiction that is due tomorrow I have decided to go ahead and write this post now while everything is still fresh in my mind.

I decided to go for a more neopolitan style pizza(something my gf isnt really a fan of anyway) because I was getting bored with the same old NY style mumbo jumbo.  With this said I mixed up a dough with 65 hydration AT flour .3 cy and a large spoonful of starter.  Used the procedure outlined by Chau under the tartine bread/pizza thread's last post.  This method was impressive and was extremely happy with the doughs development and handling abilities, because of this I will continue to adopt this procedure as the norm, but where the problems lie was not in the preparation, but the cooking...To say the least the pies where slightly burned.
I preheated the oven at 550 with the stone at the bottom rack for 50 minutes where I then slipped on the frozen towel tube for 15.  After the fifteen was up switched the oven to HI broil where I kept it through out the baking process...The pepp/Banana peppers cooked for two minutes exactly and showed great promise until I noticed the bottom had slightly over cooked...oh well one more pie to go so I shrugged off my disappointment and begin stretching and making my pizza.  The plan was to cook this one a slight bit less 1.5 minutes and see how it turned out, well this did not happen.  Our fire alarm, pardon my language is a bitch and goes off everytime the oven is opened if the temperatures are past 450, this overwhelming and annoying cause the pie to remain in the oven a little over 2 min 15 sec while the gf and I frantically ran around doing what ever we could to cause the thing to stop.  All in all not the best outcome, but a learning experience.  I enjoyed the pies and didnt think they where that bad as for the gf lets just say a had to go pick her up a few NY slices for down the street, oh well more for me I guess...

Ill post some pic after I write some more of my paper and hopefully you guys could shed some light on my situation so next time wont be as bad!
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jackie Tran on April 17, 2011, 11:13:13 PM
 :-D funny story Wucactus!  I haven't set the smoke detector off yet, but I have burnt a bunch of pies.  You may want to try a lower protein flour and/or load the pie at a lower stone temp.
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: widespreadpizza on April 17, 2011, 11:18:03 PM
...And an umalted flour! 
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: wucactus1 on April 17, 2011, 11:25:11 PM
yeah I forgot to mention that I used maybe 5% if that of whole wheat as well, just because I have a bit lying around...Perhaps I could try a 00/AT combo?  Also would placing the stone in the middle of the oven as opposed to the bottom help?  I realize its a process of trial and erro, but when you have a sensitive FA and a girl friend who doesnt even like Neopolitan pizza it becomes a very tense environment, not to mention the mass amounts of energy being used going straight to the electrical bill(does anyone actually know how much cooking at this levels effects the bill?)...I need to get this down pat and fast, perhaps this weekend...I think she is going home for easter and I will have the apt to myself, for all my baking desires...anyway, still working on the paper, Ill keep chiming in and pics coming soon!
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: wucactus1 on April 18, 2011, 12:07:01 AM
first pie baked
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: wucactus1 on April 18, 2011, 12:07:40 AM
second pie
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: wucactus1 on April 18, 2011, 12:09:14 AM
skirt...looks about the same on both pies, but this is from the 1st, second actually seemed to have less, perhaps do to the first pie zapping the residual heat within the stone...?
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: wucactus1 on April 18, 2011, 12:09:49 AM
crumb...ate all the good pieces...sorry
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: wucactus1 on April 23, 2011, 10:05:22 PM
Heres another pie I made tonight for dinner...
75/25(hg/ap)
67%H2O
2.5% Sea salt
20% Starter

Hand kneaded, bulk rise for 4, divide and balled, proofed for 4 more hours.
Baked in a frozen towel rigged oven for 2min...

here are some pics
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: wucactus1 on April 23, 2011, 10:06:42 PM
more...
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jackie Tran on April 23, 2011, 10:18:30 PM
Very nice Wu.  Great looking crumb.  How did it eat? The force is strong in you.  ;D
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: wucactus1 on April 23, 2011, 10:24:31 PM
It ate beautifully...I told my self only half a pizza, but then this happened...There was no way it was going in the refrigerator.  The crumb was soft and moist inside, with nice crisp charring outside.  The best pizza I have ever had and if people like anthony at upn or matt at motorino are really making as great of a pizza as people are saying then it must be from god...Only if I could get to sf and ny to see how mine really measures up.  I need some reall wfo pizza bad, but for now this is amazing and perhaps this ignorance is bless,
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: TXCraig1 on April 24, 2011, 09:27:47 AM
It ate beautifully...I told my self only half a pizza, but then this happened...There was no way it was going in the refrigerator.
 
If I had a $1 every time I said that...

Quote
The crumb was soft and moist inside, with nice crisp charring outside.  The best pizza I have ever had and if people like anthony at upn or matt at motorino are really making as great of a pizza as people are saying then it must be from god...Only if I could get to sf and ny to see how mine really measures up.  I need some reall wfo pizza bad, but for now this is amazing and perhaps this ignorance is bless,

I bet your pie was every bit as good if not better. It looks wonderful, and I can hear the joy in your words. To me, it doesn't sound like ignorance, it sound like epiphany.

CL
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jackie Tran on April 24, 2011, 10:05:22 AM
It ate beautifully...I told my self only half a pizza, but then this happened...There was no way it was going in the refrigerator.  The crumb was soft and moist inside, with nice crisp charring outside.  The best pizza I have ever had and if people like anthony at upn or matt at motorino are really making as great of a pizza as people are saying then it must be from god...Only if I could get to sf and ny to see how mine really measures up.  I need some reall wfo pizza bad, but for now this is amazing and perhaps this ignorance is bless,

Wu, I have had similar feelings when I'm able to make better and better pies.  I too, am dying to try some of these big name places.  But for now, it's just as exciting to work on my own stuff.  You'll also get pickier as you go along become very snobbish like many of the folks here.   :-D

I would say keep enjoying those pies as they look good to me.

Chau
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: tinroofrusted on April 24, 2011, 10:20:47 AM
I realize its a process of trial and error, but when you have a sensitive FA and a girl friend who doesnt even like Neopolitan pizza it becomes a very tense environment, not to mention the mass amounts of energy being used going straight to the electrical bill....

I hesitate to say this but I think both the FA and the GF will have to be replaced with newer models that are less sensitive, and in the case of the GF, more adventuresome and appreciative of the finer things in life.  I don't believe Quentin Tarantino would brook a GF who doesn't like Neapolitan pizza.

Your pizzas look fantastic. OK a but overdone on the bottom but that's a problem a lot of people would love to have.  

I'm not really serious about the GF comment (OK maybe a little bit serious...)

TinRoof
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: wucactus1 on April 24, 2011, 10:51:37 AM
LOL...the QT remark was hilarious...thank god my girlfriend is no where near obsessed with pizza as I am and is not an active memeber she would have loved to see that, but with all kidding aside, her lack of adventure in eating can be annoying sometimes, but it adds character and after dating 3 years it has honestly been something(on a deeper level) that I love about here, in a sense its a unique trait to here, but as said before it can be annoying...and is the very reason why I havent had thai or indian in about 2.5years and sushi in about 1...As for the bottom I actually like this way alot, more so from the second set rather than the first.  I feel it isnt over done, but when I had Pizza at smashing tomato(local VPN place) the pies seemed undercooked, pale with small spots and the pizza had no chance of being held...I have noticed this as somewhat as a stark characteristic within VPN(correct me if Im wrong), but for me I like a pizza that can hold its own and If I can get sub two minute bakes with a moist light crumb and a slightly stiffer/crisper underskirt than thats a pizza for me...this ties into the char/burnt debate...where we all have changing/differing opinions...I wish you guys could have seen it and tasted it in person...Pictures do no justice. Local Organic criminis picked earlier this week, Fresh made that day(1hour before I bought) Grande mozz, and San marzano Toms with fillipio Berio OO.  It was amazment.

Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: tinroofrusted on April 24, 2011, 11:03:41 AM
... but for me I like a pizza that can hold its own and If I can get sub two minute bakes with a moist light crumb and a slightly stiffer/crisper underskirt than thats a pizza for me...
I totally agree with you on that.  I actually feel that the Neapolitans are a bit hemmed in by their own rules. Fortunately we Americans (I guess I am kind of assuming you are American, wucactus; it seems unlikely that anyone named wucactus would be from anywhere other than the USA) don't have to follow their strict rules and can play around with the formula a bit more.  I do think a bit more crispness to the crust is much better, and I have had that same experience with going to a VPN place and thinking "This isn't as good as my pizza."  But then I have never eaten pizza in Naples. I have to do that before I spend too much more time dogging VPN. 

How did your paper come out?  Pulp Fiction is one of my favorite movies.  I am avoiding work right now myself so I'd better get back to it...

TinRoof
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: wucactus1 on April 24, 2011, 04:37:26 PM
I am indeed american, ky...and the wu stands for wutang clan...the screen name comes from a joke that started back along time ago, but anyway...
The VPN is very stringent and closed minded, with that said i believe(but cant truly say sense I havent eaten at these places only the one vpn place in lexington) that the places who arent under this organization are really the one make the great pizza out there, but for me as I have said I try to make a pizza that i enjoy and If others so happen to enjoy that awesome as for my girl friend I tried and because of it went out and bought her some other food, I guess it will be ny style for her...
Naple is one place I want to travel and as for the pizza in the US i really want to try UPN and motorino the most...they in my opinion, which is only a visual one seem to excel past the others, but all in due time.
As for the paper it turned out great...It is about pulp fictions critique on purpose, our perceptions of cause and effect and how that in turn creates our manifestations of purpose...but any way...
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: wucactus1 on May 11, 2011, 11:25:43 PM
Made pizza tonight in the good ol' electric oven...and it was amazing!  With my summer graphics design studio taking up insane amounts of time I opted for a longer fermentation, going from a 10h 20% starter formula to using approx. 10% starter and an 18h ferment.  I tried something different this time with the starter.  I fed it once let it rise(four hours) and then fed it again waiting another 4 hours, float tested it and then incorporated it in to the water and so on.  Needless to say this dough was by far way more sour than past doughs and I liked it, scratch it, loved it.  You could smell the sourness on the dough as it was fermenting.  I dont really know if this is a good thing, but it was beautiful and yielded the best pizza I have ever had and right now stands as what I would produce and sell if I were in the market, it was really an amazing thing, the girlfriend on the other hand was not feeling it and I think really hates Neo. style pizza...its burnt she says, "would you like a side order of cancer with that pie" she mocks, she favors the NY stuff which is good, but now that I can do this consistently I dont think there is any turning back, oh well more for me(i have her second half waiting for me in the fridge...DINNER)!

The Specs.
66 hydration ratio
60/40-caputo/at hg
18h ferment
minimally kneaded, bulk for 2h, divide ball ferment 12 hours, stretch and fold(no more than 2), reshape and final proof until stretched and baked.
preheat oven to 550(really 585) when it beeps place the frozen towel on wait 5 then kick to broiler for 20, load the pie and tend to it as necessary just as if it were a wfo...baked sub 2min.

Here are some pics of the Pizzas, would love to hear the feedback!
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jackie Tran on May 11, 2011, 11:59:16 PM
NICE!!  Beautiful crumb shot as well.  Not your best crumb, but very nice indeed.  If you bake this out longer like a NY, the crumb would be tougher.  The short bake time can mask toughness especially when you get that much sourness...or so I have noticed.  Anyways forget that mumbo jumbo.  The pie looks awesome and I'll take your word that it ate very well.  Congrats Wu, job well done again.

Chau
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: wucactus1 on May 12, 2011, 12:18:48 AM
Yeah not the best, i think i know exactly which crumb you speak of and what i dont get it that it was  5 min bake at 600/650...makes no sense, but anyway over all this is the best pie I have had the char on the rim and and the underskirt was perfect, complimented the sourness quite nicely and the crust wasnt tough at all, crisp on the outside and light/melt away in the middle, perfect in my book.  One thing that I believe seperates this particular set of bakes from the others is the fermentation time, jumping from 10 to 18h and using a twice fed starter really ups the flavor.  Have you had similar experiences with extended fermentation and double feedings?
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jackie Tran on May 12, 2011, 12:28:32 AM
Yeah not the best, i think i know exactly which crumb you speak of and what i dont get it that it was  5 min bake at 600/650...makes no sense, but anyway over all this is the best pie I have had the char on the rim and and the underskirt was perfect, complimented the sourness quite nicely and the crust wasnt tough at all, crisp on the outside and light/melt away in the middle, perfect in my book.  One thing that I believe seperates this particular set of bakes from the others is the fermentation time, jumping from 10 to 18h and using a twice fed starter really ups the flavor.  Have you had similar experiences with extended fermentation and double feedings?

I agree Wu.  I was only judging by looking at the crumb alone, but crumb alone does not make the pie.  This pie was better all around.  I hope you didn't take offense.  I'm gonna be tough on you b/c you are making that caliber of a pie.  You should take that as a compliment.  

Wu, I know very little about Starters.  They are so complicated and from what it sounds like, changing the amount of feedings and or time and temp can yield very different results.  Mixed into that 100 other variables going on at the same time.  

What are you comparing this bake to?  Other oven NPs like it or your NY doughs?   I have had similar experiences with extended RT fermentation but I have not played around with multiple feedings.  I like a very light sourness so I tend to use the starter when it is first ready and young.  

Sorry if I rained on your parade.  They are beautiful pies and you should be proud.  Especially coming from a home oven, it is one of the hardest to make.  
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: wucactus1 on May 12, 2011, 12:43:49 AM
I did not take offense, but hold your criticism high and with esteem, your pies are the ones that influence me in the directions I go, your nearly-neos and lbe/mbe pies are amazing on a consistent basis and because of your experience, especially with high-caliber crumbs, i take your criticism in the most positive way!
as for the starter im out of hg flour for now, but this weekend will be making a trip to gfs to get 25lb of bouncer(11dollars!) and will hopefully make another pie coying the very methods used for this one, hopefully all will turn out well and this wonderful sourness will pop up again, but some variables are easier to control more so than others like heat, which is constantly fluctuating in my apartment but always hovering around 75/8...its hot, it got up to 88 from making pizza though(doors and windows open...)it was hot.
I was comparing this pie to other neos I have done about 3 others now and pictures I see of other pies...Mainly motorino and upn, both AM and Mathieu are amazing, and they are the visual targets im shooting for, my underskirt is approaching upns(see photo)...it was terribly close, but no cigar.  He in my opinion is at the forefront of innovation and technique, someplace i wish to be someday...Its amazing, the levels that he takes his dough too and the complexity it presents, I have been researching his methods, but all response and analysis of his technique seem cryptic and filled with holes in some way...
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jackie Tran on May 12, 2011, 01:09:21 AM
Wu, good to know i didn't offend you and have influence your pizza making in some ways.  It sounds like you have set some high goals for yourself and headed in the right direction.  It also sounds like you are having fun with it.  

What material are you baking on?  Firebricks, if you aren't already should give you the same look, but I would say that you are there already.  Your pies do look like they came from a WFO, at least the pictures I have seen.   ;D  Did these have any bit of a crisp to the veneer or was it soft from the get go?    Also how many grams in dough and about how large did you stretch these?

When you tire of these pies, try making a NY pie with a similar workflow and starter percentage.  It will give you a completely different crumb.  

Chau
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: wucactus1 on May 12, 2011, 09:16:18 AM
Yeah being an art student it takes alot for me to get offended, alot...something I dont think anyone on the forum could do, levels of snobbery are only able to be attained by the most pretentious of professors and wannabe art critics, but any who just to throw it in your ny pies are looking good, the crust seems pretty crisp on yours and as for the veneer, there was definitely some strength.  My crust was able to hold up on its own and maintained its strength through the eating process, not overly wet or floppy and didnt have a cracker crunch, just right imo.
Im using my girlfriends mom's pampered chef stone, its a little thicker than most stones and is 14" in diameter.  Starter of tan/brown and now is black as night...its awesome I love this stone!  As for fire bricks, I have been looking for a long time into getting some, not for the home oven, but for a potential wfo build, trying to convince the parents is harder than I thought, but do you think they would work well in the home oven?  They seem thick and preheat time seems long, but maybe it would be worth it.  How many do you use in the oven?
Dough is 9oz stretched out to 10-11".  I typically use a 10 oz ball and stretch it out to 12/13, but I wanted to make a slightly smaller pie to minimize leftovers, it didnt exactly work and my girlfriend refused to eat her other half...she hates neo. style apparently and even after I attempted to educate her showing pictures of motorino and upn she declined and ignored it all.  So if I ever end up making a pizza for her it will have to be a ny style, and I have been trying to think how I could possibly cook up both styles at the same time using the same oven session...any ideas?
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jet_deck on May 12, 2011, 01:58:24 PM
...any ideas?

I believe those are excellent results from the home oven.  Any chance of a new girlfriend with grandparents with a different, thicker stone?  And that loves your "burned" pizza just the way it is?  :-D  JK
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: wucactus1 on May 12, 2011, 02:14:49 PM
Yeah i dont think the girl friend is going anywhere despite her scewed definition of burned! as for the stone I have been contemplating getting a thicker one, maybe firebrick,maybe soapstone.  And as it turns out there is a major producer of firebricks and all the other things needed for home ovens or anything produced within that manner...http://www.louisvillefirebrick.com, so well see what happens, im going to do a bunch of research and try contacting them today to get some price quotes...
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jackie Tran on May 12, 2011, 05:40:10 PM
Yeah being an art student it takes alot for me to get offended, alot...something I dont think anyone on the forum could do, levels of snobbery are only able to be attained by the most pretentious of professors and wannabe art critics, but any who just to throw it in your ny pies are looking good, the crust seems pretty crisp on yours and as for the veneer, there was definitely some strength.  My crust was able to hold up on its own and maintained its strength through the eating process, not overly wet or floppy and didnt have a cracker crunch, just right imo.
Im using my girlfriends mom's pampered chef stone, its a little thicker than most stones and is 14" in diameter.  Starter of tan/brown and now is black as night...its awesome I love this stone!  As for fire bricks, I have been looking for a long time into getting some, not for the home oven, but for a potential wfo build, trying to convince the parents is harder than I thought, but do you think they would work well in the home oven?  They seem thick and preheat time seems long, but maybe it would be worth it.  How many do you use in the oven?
Dough is 9oz stretched out to 10-11".  I typically use a 10 oz ball and stretch it out to 12/13, but I wanted to make a slightly smaller pie to minimize leftovers, it didnt exactly work and my girlfriend refused to eat her other half...she hates neo. style apparently and even after I attempted to educate her showing pictures of motorino and upn she declined and ignored it all.  So if I ever end up making a pizza for her it will have to be a ny style, and I have been trying to think how I could possibly cook up both styles at the same time using the same oven session...any ideas?

Wu I like pies that have just enough strength to just hold their own, but the floppy ones get eaten just as well.  Firebrick is relatively cheap if you can source it locally.  It's usually about $1.50 a piece and about 6-8 pieces will do the job.  So for around $10, it's hard to beat and it's hard to crack them as well.  They don't seem to take much longer to heat up either compared to a traditional cordierite stone.  I only suggested that b/c I think most WFO's use them for a floor, but if your stone is working fine the difference between the 2 is negligeable.   The good thing about FB is that it tends to cook a bit cooler meaning that won't burn pies as bad at the higher NP temps.   In my MBE, I could bake malted HG pies at 750F hearth temps for almost 4 minutes without burning, something that is just not likely to happen with other stones. 

Don't worry about the GF, she'll come around.  Just give her some time.  My wife was the same way at first.  Now she likes them but no doubt my pies have improved since then.   

Sure you can bake both in the home oven one after the other.  You can bake the NY pie on your way up or on your way down, upto you.  I'd bake it first so the GF can eat, then get the stone temps high enough for your pie.

Keep posting your pies, they are looking good.

Chau
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: wucactus1 on May 12, 2011, 08:20:56 PM
Yeah im really excited about this and getting my oven down, I personally like these pies than more than what my local VPN place is producing(Smashing Tomato), so to know that I dont need a wfo or to travel to an expensive vpn place to get this pizza is awesome!
Regarding the FB there is a place in louisville that produce them along with everything else you could possibly want regarding kilns and WFOs so Im going to make a stop there the next time im in town during the week to visit the family.  Im sure it wouldnt hurt to try the Fb and for that cost it would be no loss only gain...
and I think next time I make pizza Ill try cooking hers on the way up that way she is satisfied and content as I employ my oven shenanigans and such, it will just require me to make two different batches hers with some oil and a bit of sugar to aid in the browning on the way up to temp...also im doing all the heat estimation blindly through trial and error, using past times as benchmarks and it is working, but i think im soon going to invest in a ir therm, but maybe not we'll see...
You make any almost-wfo pies lately?
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jackie Tran on May 12, 2011, 09:17:00 PM
I would reccomend the IR therm as I have found so many uses for it around the house.   No AWFO pies lately.   Easier and better results from the LBE for me.

Chau
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: wucactus1 on May 12, 2011, 09:50:38 PM
In that case ill start an IR fund!  About the LBE, do your results really come out that well, how do the home oven and LBE pies differ, would you build one all over again? Is the investment worth it?, not being able to have a WFO at the apartment is a drag, but a LBE could easily reside on our deck...
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jackie Tran on May 13, 2011, 02:14:35 AM
In that case ill start an IR fund!  About the LBE, do your results really come out that well, how do the home oven and LBE pies differ, would you build one all over again? Is the investment worth it?, not being able to have a WFO at the apartment is a drag, but a LBE could easily reside on our deck...

Hard to answer b/c my earlier pies were all made in the home oven and most of my later pies when my skills improved were done in the LBE.   One of my greatest pies ever made (Perfect Pie #1 in the elusive yet perfect pie thread) 
was made in the home oven.   The majority of them have come from the MBE/LBE.   So in essence, I have made some really good pies in both.   I think that you can make really good pies using either or BUT I think it can be a bit trickier in the home oven b/c of the large amount of dead space.  This space can really create heating differences between the top and bottom of the pie.   Now if you use oven tricks or the oven in an oven technique, then you are leveling the playing field between the 2. 

I can make a better NY/NP hybrid in the LBE and I can make a better NY style or deep dish in the home oven.   Each oven is gear towards a particular style better.  The MBE/LBE is a relatively high temp oven, so if that is the type of pie that you like, tha'ts what I would look at building. 

Since you can make a great NP style pie in the home oven that you are happy with, I'm not sure how much you can improve upon that with the LBE.  No doubt it will take you some time to learn how to properly construct an LBE (to even top and bottom heat) and to use it.   I was never really 100% satisfied with my hybrid style pies in the home oven, but am really satisfied with them in the LBE.  Perhaps if I spent some more time in the home oven now that I'm fairly happy with my dough technique, I can make pies equally as pleasing to the eyes and palate. 

Was it worth it?  For me I would say yes.  I made an MBE and then made an LBE even though my MBE pies were already pretty good and knowing I was going to be going the WFO route.   For me, the MBE/LBE offers some advantages over the home oven. 

Quick preheat times, 10m in the MBE, and close to 20m in the LBE.   Some members have gotten their LBE preheat times down below 10m I believe.   At a 10m preheat time, that's over 20 bakes per 5 gallon tank. 

MBE/LBE is portable.  I can bake outside during the summer and avoid heating up the kitchen.  I bake pies in my garage during the winter to avoid the elements. 

So it's fairly cheap and convenient to use and produces outstanding results IF you have it set up properly and can make a decent dough.   I'll still be using my LBE, when I want to make just 2 pies.  There's no sense in firing up a WFO for 2 small pies.   Soon I'll be able to tell everyone the true difference between the LBE and the WFO.  I'm sure the WFO makes a better pie, but how much better no one really knows.   I have turned out some pretty good pies in the LBE, let's see what I can do with the WFO with a little practice. 

Chau
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: pizzablogger on May 13, 2011, 08:16:03 AM
Wu, those last pies look very good indeed...you are progressing at a rapid pace. Delicious looking pizzas.

Certainly blows some of my latest efforts out of the water!  :)
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: pizzablogger on May 13, 2011, 08:46:53 AM
Broiler's Last Stand

While making my square the other night, toward the end of finishing the pizza under the broiler my broiler flame started acting even more erratically than it has of late...sputtering, popping, flame waning and then suddenly spurting. I'm pretty sure my terribly abused oven, now with a permanent patina of yellow on the areas near the control dials and back vent point from multiple flare ups, is on the verge of dying.

Made some round pizzas last night. These are the first pizzas I have let other people help top for me in an effort to involve friends more when over for pizza. Fun!

100% Caputo 00 Pizzeria
63% Water
2.80% Salt
3.15% Starter

"Decent" pizzas. The broiler is literally all over the place now...a real battle to get the pizzas to cook without burning. Flare ups and periods of lower heat suck....I'm looking forward to one day cooking pizzas with a heat source that at least approximates a more consistent temperature.

BTW, it is 1000% lame not having a good pizza cutter. Seems like I have everything else, but my chump arse Ikea pizza cutter is far too dull now. Have to go back and forth multiple times and actually flattens the crumb a little while savaging the cutter through the pies.

Good flavor, just okay crumb and structure. Better luck next time and will definitely not attempt to mix dough while having a crying baby on me in a Moby wrap! :-[

Cell phone pics from three of the pies made.

Ruby: Smoked mozzarella, red onion, fior-di-latte, olive oil, salt, aged Spanish mahon, fresh marjoram
Crumb from Margherita: Sauce, fior-di-latte, salt, olive oil, basil, pecorino toscano
Red Rosa: Sauce, fior-di-latte, red onion, basil, olive oil, salt, pistachios, parmigiano-reggiano

Grade: C+, which ain't cutting the mustard. One pie towards the end got completely nuked..you could have played hockey with it after it cooled down!
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jackie Tran on May 13, 2011, 08:55:57 AM
For a crappy oven on it's last leg, those are some nice looking pies.  PB, cutting small pizzas with scissors is my preferred method. Nice work.   The crumb looks good to me as well.

Chau
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: andreguidon on May 13, 2011, 09:17:44 AM
Hey PB, great serving dishes!! where did you get those??
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: pizzablogger on May 13, 2011, 09:34:01 AM
Hey PB, great serving dishes!! where did you get those??

Those are some of the Massimo Giacon pizza plates, made and sold by Alessi.

There are six plates in all, typically sold in sets of two plates.

Google Massimo Giacon pizza plates. Amazon has some of these, as do other places. --K
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: wucactus1 on May 13, 2011, 10:09:33 AM
Thanks PB, your recent square pie and above pies look delicious! The crumb almost has this ethereal look too, im sure contributed to the moistness!
In regards to the pizza cutter situation I can totally relate my pizza cutter is dull and also requires 3-4 passes, completely destroying the crumb most of the time, but i have learned to be quick about it...While Im at gfs today picking up my 25# bag of bouncer im going to see if they have any decent pizza equipment, a cutter and maybe a new peel is in order(current peel is a bit charred...need a custom iron/steel/aluminum peel, with a cool fleur di lis or iron owl...hmmm custom peel, metal shop here I come!)
also a tip for oven PB is to not stick it closest to the broiler, but one below and heat to 550(585 with calibration) until it beeps then place a frozen towel on wait 5 minutes then kick the broiler on for 10-15 and launch the frist pie, this is my method and the top/bottom seem to cook evenly, but your pies look gorgeous so i dont know what your complaining about.
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: forzaroma on May 13, 2011, 10:10:27 AM
Man great char from the home oven. I still can't get that with my home oven. Tried broiler method many times but Im not giving up.
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: andreguidon on May 13, 2011, 10:42:35 AM
Thanks PB!!
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: wucactus1 on May 13, 2011, 10:48:05 AM
i have been trying to track down those plates for so long ever since seeing them in a una pizza neopalatana picture...but never though they would be that expensive...
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: TXCraig1 on May 13, 2011, 10:55:48 AM
I really want to like them, but I think they just remind me too much of the plates my kids ate off when they were babies...

CL
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: dellavecchia on May 13, 2011, 02:23:07 PM
I really want to like them, but I think they just remind me too much of the plates my kids ate off when they were babies...

CL

Craig - Funny you say that, as my three year old loves them. I have 12 of them, and he makes a game of which design he will get after he eats his pizza.

Kelly - Outstanding pizza.

John
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: ponzu on May 13, 2011, 07:13:14 PM
PB

Really lovely pies.  I really like the balance of your cornicione to center.

That Bianco clone looks great.  Never having tried the real item, I keep on meaning to try those toppings (pistachio, red onions) but have yet to get around to it.

AZ

Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: pizzablogger on May 13, 2011, 07:19:22 PM
PB

Really lovely pies.  I really like the balance of your cornicione to center.

That Bianco clone looks great.  Never having tried the real item, I keep on meaning to try those toppings (pistachio, red onions) but have yet to get around to it.

AZ



Thanks comrade.

The Bianco is not really a clone, being there is no sauce on the real version...and I was out of rosemary.

I really like the red onion & pistachio combo with sauce, but the real combo steals the show in my opinion.

Parmigiano-reggiano, red onion, pistachios and rosemary are a simple, yet potent combination which lingers.

Sputnik needs to tractor beam those ingredients into space and do a zero-G recreation of that pie. Get to it!  :)
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Matthew on May 14, 2011, 04:52:16 AM
K,
Very nice job. 

Matt
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: wucactus1 on May 17, 2011, 09:20:16 PM
So Baked another pie following pretty much the exact same steps and formula as my past pie, the only differing factors where one revolving around the oven.  I tried baking a new york style for my girlfriend and then a neopolitan for myself.  My girlfirends pizza because of the 00 flour and comparatively low heat came out white than a babies bottom despite me preheating a stone on the floor for her...Her stone being on the floor also caused some problems with my stone(by the broiler) and it not getting the proper pre-oven heat, this led to some compensation and estimation, that ultimately led to not bad, but sub-par bakes...Either way the pizza tasted wonderful, atleast it did tonight when I reheated the leftovers, this is undoubtedly due to the attitude toward the pizza I had yesterday after making it(mixture of disappointment and anger), but the crumb remained moist and the exterior crisp.  The rim was slightly more chewy than yesterday(yesterday was sort of chewy as well) and the dough presented a slightly more sour taste than the last bake.  I dont know if its me, but I like a sour dough, not REAL sour, but to a point where it is definitely noticeable, I also cooked the pizza a bit less in part of the oven situation mentioned above and the fact that I have noticed slightly paler pizzas on the forum and have concluded that I much prefer a browner/slightly darker pizza(like my last pie).
also one last note, the bottom of this pizza isnt as evenly charred as my past pizzas and some on here, does anyone know how to guarantee a evenly charred bottom like those often in motorino and upn, and please dont say a SF oven...
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jackie Tran on June 05, 2011, 10:43:37 AM
Tried a new technique this bake.  Small amount of CY, 32h RT ferment at ~70F.   Turned out pretty good.

Pie #1 breakfast pie: salsa, scrambled egg, potatoe, cheddah, roaste green chile.

Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jackie Tran on June 05, 2011, 10:45:44 AM
Pie #2 Marinara, garlic, touch of grated parm, evoo, basil.

 
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: wucactus1 on June 05, 2011, 11:16:27 AM
YUM Breakfast Pizza...and then a lunch Pizza, they look fantastic, you got some good spring, but the crumb appears a bit dry, was it?
Im making some pizzas tonight around 7...eyeballed 18hr ferm.  Ill post pics, hopefully they turn out as good as yours, but you never know what will happen in the home oven!
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jackie Tran on June 05, 2011, 01:01:59 PM
Thx Wu, I didn't think so.  Did they all look a bit dry or was it just a certain one?  I usually try to post several different looking crumb shots from the same pie.

Chau
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: dellavecchia on June 05, 2011, 01:06:20 PM
Beautiful execution. I love that you have not abandoned your home oven.

John
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: pizzablogger on June 05, 2011, 04:29:19 PM
Salsa?!   ???

Like, who is this friggen guy, huh?

Nice looking batch....kitchen oven, LBE, WFO....neapolitan, new york...you're all over the map lately! Love the variation of styles. Really laying down the gauntlet.
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: wucactus1 on June 18, 2011, 09:56:54 PM
So girlfriend headed home to take care of some buisness so I have the apartment to myself, and that means bake-athon.  I decided to run a little experiment to see if I prefer 75/25(00/hg) or 75/25(hg/00).I also wanted to try and figure out what % of starter I should use for an 18/20hour ferment at 75% degrees so i split that value between the two batches.  Each batch was 65%hydration with 2.5%salt. and rose for 18h.  The batch with the majority of HG used 8%starter(by flour weight) and the 00 used 5%. Cooked on a preheated stone under the broiler all bakes where under 1.5minutes, but i didnt right down the times exactly.

-conclusions-

-00 does infact need more Kneading.  I never noticed it but side by side it is apparent, I may have actually over kneaded the HG as well.
-The 00 was easier to stretched
-The HG proofed up alot bigger, but was a heck of alot harder to stretch.
-00/HG pies are infact better than HG/00.  I doubt this wondering if there really is a difference, never had a chance to do a side by side.
-I think next time Im going to try a 75/25(00/hg) and then do a 100% 00 and see how they fair.
-The increased kneading from my previous workflow solved my hole issue.  Dough was strong and extensible.


-Questions-

-does over fermentation lead to pies that are harder to stretch?
-could I have over kneaded my dough? Im using 9.8oz balls and only stretching too 10/10.5 inches yet they should be a min of 12" right?  There is no excess in the rim and the dough is see through in the middle.
-what could I do to improve these pies?  I have been trying to not move the pizza much but rather let the oven do its thing and hopefully get it to where i wount have to move it at all

The taste was good, complex bread flavors, that of wheat more than sourdough tang.  The bad thing is I like this tang but havent been able to get it to come back.  I want alot of it too, not just a hit, what can I do to enhance this tang?

Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jackie Tran on June 18, 2011, 10:32:07 PM
Nice job Wu! I like the leoparding you are getting, more of a typhoid fever pox look.   

When I did the experiments with blends, I also ended up preferring a high % 00 and small % HG blend as well.  Both pies I made were really good, and I felt as though I had maximize the flours potential for that bake and the 00/HG blend won over the HG/00 blend.  I noted that here...
Reply #21
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12538.20.html (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12538.20.html)


-Questions-

-does over fermentation lead to pies that are harder to stretch?
-could I have over kneaded my dough? Im using 9.8oz balls and only stretching too 10/10.5 inches yet they should be a min of 12" right?  There is no excess in the rim and the dough is see through in the middle.
-what could I do to improve these pies?  I have been trying to not move the pizza much but rather let the oven do its thing and hopefully get it to where i wount have to move it at all

The taste was good, complex bread flavors, that of wheat more than sourdough tang.  The bad thing is I like this tang but havent been able to get it to come back.  I want alot of it too, not just a hit, what can I do to enhance this tang?


-Yes, I have found that over fermentation with doughs leavened with mature (acidic) starters does lead to a more dry and tough crumb.  This is the work of the acids I believe BUT this dryness can also be the work of over gluten development as well.  Both seem to be tempered by a quick bake.  The longer the bake the more noticeable it will be.

-yes you could have over kneaded your dough.  You'll know when you go to open the dough (at room temps and not cold as it can mask over gluten development or over fermentation).  The dough will practically say you over kneaded me if you listen to the dough.

If the dough opens easily and is thin in the center with no excess in the rim, then the gluten has not been overdeveloped.  If the crumb is dry or tough, then it's a matter of hydration, over acidification, or too long of a bake relative to the thickness of the crust. 

-if you want a more sour taste then use a (more) mature starter.  What starter are you using? You may look into switching to a SF SD starter.  Use it when it is mature rather than at a young stage, and allow the dough to proof out well. 

I could be wrong here, but have found that really sour crust/breads tend to give me a more dense and tough crumb.  That is, I haven't been able to get that flavor and a really light and soft crumb.  It's likely my lack of skill, so let me know if you can do it, but I think the window for finding that balance becomes increasing small.  The margin for error becomes increasing big.  A slightly higher hydration will help here as it will keep the crumb moist to balance the crumb drying effects of the SD acids.

Hope that helps.  Maybe some ppl can chime in with more technical info as these are only observations I have made in working with starters.

Chau

Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: wucactus1 on June 18, 2011, 11:06:45 PM
The crumb wasnt really dry, more moist than dry, but not tartine bread moist, perhaps this is from the kneading, as the starter I have been using lately has been the starter I have had since spring break(march) and has been innoculated during its infancy, but my procedure as far as kneading goes is rather minimal.  I have found that if I do anyless than this and the dough doesnt have enough strength, perhaps I need a whole new routine...

Quick Outline
Mix in bowl til gathered together slowly adding flour-2min
rest 20
turn out of bowl and roll around/knead like Anthony from NR for 4-6 turns
into bowl to bulk rise
Turn out and repeat the Anthony NR technique
rest 5min
divide and ball using NR technique plus 1-3 of the Chau stretch and folds.
-the line between kneaded too little, enough, or too much is very fine and at one point i thought i knew it, guess not.
The 00 dough imo wasn't over kneaded but the HG, most likely, perhaps it over fermented a bit?  Maybe the kneading technique isnt it perhaps the starter % is too much? Ahhh so many options. Ill take your recommendations into account and try using a more mature starter and up the hydration to 67 from 65 when using 75 00/25 HG.  As for a kneading techinique what are you currently using(if you hand knead still).
Again its constant experimentation and maybe ill find that sour doughs wont lend a nice soft crumb and then ill retreat back to using a younger starter.

Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jackie Tran on June 18, 2011, 11:33:57 PM
Wu, I don't think I answered your question properly in the post above.  I may have had some thoughts in mind that I wanted to get out so I wasn't really clear.

Overfermentation, in my experience does not lead to a dough being hard to stretch.  Actually the opposite, especially if working with starters.  The acids will break the gluten down and cause the dough to be more slack.  But as Scott123 has mentioned elsewhere, it's hard to overferment a dough.  Even when a dough has proofed up to the point of collapsing, it can be reballed and may not be overfermented yet.  ???  Hopefully he will see your post and join in.  I haven't had time to look into this matter myself, so that's all I'll say. 

Overfermentation, does cause a dry crumb especially if using starters.   So if the dough is tough to open especially if it's not thin yet, then it is likely due to overgluten development relative to your hydration levels rather than excess acids of overfermentation.   If you applied the same kneading techinique, time, stretch and folds, & fermentation protocol to both doughs (75% 00 vs 75% HG), then I would say that the HG blend's gluten was likely overdeveloped as you suspected. 

Looking at your technique, I would say that it would be tough to overdevelop the gluten, but again it's hard to make that call unless I have the dough in hand.  You are right in that the line to proper gluten development is fine and requires a keen sense of touch and feel to know.   Even with your outlined technique, if you are using HG flour, hydration to low relative to the flour's protein, add cold fermentation (I know you aren't but just as an example), add any extra reballing, or just a few too many turns, baked to long, etc, etc.  All these steps can add up and throw the balance off.  I myself don't always get it right either. 

As you close in on your preferred flour blend and fermentation protocol, hone your skills and senses, you'll notice the slight changes in the dough more and more.  It will practically tell you what you have to do next time around to fix the problems.  I won't be able to give you the answers you are looking for but more or less ideas to think about. 

As far as what I am doing now, I hand knead for smaller batches.  Today, I had to make 2 nine ball batches (2250gm), so I used the bosch mixer to do the mixing.   I found that when mixing the large batch vs a 2 ball batch in the mixer, the mixing times were quite different.  I had to mix 3 minutes in the bosch to get a similar dough compared to a 1 min mix for the 2 ball batch. 

Can you clarify for me which of the crumb or pizza pics you've provide is the 00 blend versus the HG blend? 
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: wucactus1 on June 18, 2011, 11:48:54 PM
Ill just have to continue to experiment, and experiment...its the only real answer, huh.  Im going to dive further into the whole deal on monday, doing another set, this time perhaps experiment with kneading times.  Whats odd though is that both doughs were really soft in the hands...especially the 00 yet its still not stretching out to 12"...it would seem that if over kneaded the dough wouldnt be so slack...oh the mysteries of kneading and dough.
The crumb is from the 00(75)/hg pie with 5% starter.
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jackie Tran on June 19, 2011, 12:01:20 AM
Wu I didn't think the  00 dough was overkneaded.  Just the Hg one since it sound like it resisted opening fully.  And yes, a dough that has too much gluten built into will still feel soft in the hand.  You'll only know it when you go to open it, by the look of the crumb structure, and the dryness of the crumb if baked out well.  Again, I think your short bake time for the HG pie probably masked any excess gluten development that was there.  

And yes, experiments lead to experience.  Only one way to gain it as far as I know.

Chau
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jackie Tran on June 19, 2011, 12:15:21 AM
Wu I don't generally work with ounces but rather grams.  By my scale, I got 9 3/4 oz = 276 gm.  I'm not sure but 9.8 ounces is close to 9.75 ounces correct? 

If so, then yes 275gm should easily stretch out to a 13" pie.   My dough is pretty slack and wet and I will often get a sub 230gm dough ball to stretch out to 11".  250-260gm is the norm for a 12" NP pie I believe.  So if the 00 pie was hard to open as well then it too was overdeveloped OR you balled really late in the game and didn't allow enough time for the gluten strands to relax before opening.  I don't think you did that you maybe you did?  ???

Chau
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: wucactus1 on June 19, 2011, 12:46:09 AM
As for the 00 maybe I did ball too late in the game...I balled both to where they would have 5 hours to proof and relxa.  The hg was looking great, holding its shape and growing well, but two hours in the 00 was flatter than a pancake so i pulled them out and did 2 more stretch and folds to get them back to shape...This probably over did it, but they were so flat...when you look at commercial doughs they are anything but flat...I want a dough that holds its shape, but isnt over kneaded.
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jackie Tran on June 19, 2011, 09:33:48 AM
Having finished the bake in the wfo last night, I decided to prepare some dough for bread to be baked this morning.  Instead of my usual HG flour, I decided to use the new caputo flour I got in last week and see if I can make a decent loaf of bread with caputo.  It's been awhile since I've made bread with caputo.

I got up early this morning and became inspired by Pizza Napoletana's post found here.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14384.msg143694.html#msg143694 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14384.msg143694.html#msg143694)

Instead of bread in the wfo, I got some new ideas and decided to turn the dough into pizza dough.  I baked these up for breakfast this morning and they were the best NP pies I have made in the home oven.  Definitely will be trying this dough in the wfo next time.

1st 2 pics are of the same pie and was 181gm, 2nd pie was 200gm. 



Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: dellavecchia on June 19, 2011, 09:43:54 AM
As for the 00 maybe I did ball too late in the game...I balled both to where they would have 5 hours to proof and relxa.  The hg was looking great, holding its shape and growing well, but two hours in the 00 was flatter than a pancake so i pulled them out and did 2 more stretch and folds to get them back to shape...This probably over did it, but they were so flat...when you look at commercial doughs they are anything but flat...I want a dough that holds its shape, but isnt over kneaded.

From past experience, reballing late in the game always makes for a tougher stretch. The suppleness is gone. Develop the gluten more in the beginning with Caputo, and you should not see pancake shapes to the balls - that being said they will flatten out more than hg flour.

John
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: dellavecchia on June 19, 2011, 09:47:51 AM
Great job Chau. They look really puffy and lively for such small panelli.

John
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: JConk007 on June 19, 2011, 09:55:29 AM
Very Nice work !! easier with no pressure right ? what was the oven temp? How did the party go ? you were up early eh?
I prefer a bit smaller also 240-260 max
Glad you are enjoying the new oven!
John
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jackie Tran on June 19, 2011, 02:24:25 PM
Thanks JJ (John and John)  ;). I could tell this dough was going to be fantastic after the bulk.  When I make the dough right, I can get a small dough ball to really puff up.

Jconk, these were done in the home oven and not the wfo.  I did try in the wfo before these but the dough just wasn't right. I think I had the heat right but the dough was off, so the wfo NP pies were okay.  Good but not up to standard.  These home oven pies were much better.  I have some ideas on how to make the dough better now, so we will see next weekend.

The party was great.  Only 3/4 of the people showed so I had extra dough.  They went in the freezer and I'll bake a few up next week to see what I get.

Chau
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: wucactus1 on June 19, 2011, 03:51:48 PM
Thanks John for the advice.  I think Im going to make up a 2 ball batch tonight again using 75/25(00/HG).  Adjust my kneading accordingly.  Im going to use a younger starter to try and avoid the dryness that may come from it and use slightly bit less starter to ward off any potential of over fermentation.  I am going to stick with 65% Hydration though as I feel any lower and the 25%HG wont be happy, though caputo loves 58-60/62 range.

Chau your pies look awesome coming out of the HO.  It seems as though you cook yours a little paler than what I like. Is there a reason for this? I feel if I go this pale It becomes a floppy Neo pie, I guess I prefer a hotter environment so I get a nice crisp on the bottom that holds shape, yet is not burnt.
How big did you stretch out each pie?  What were the temps on your stone.  I dont have an Instant read thermometer, so I had to adjust by working out different preheat systems and then go by intuition between bakes on whether or not to turn the broiler off between pies or leave it rolling.

Ps
you better watch your back...your pies look good and all, but im gaining on you.(aesthetically I actually prefer your HO pizzas as opposed to your WFO...what do you prefer?)
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jackie Tran on June 19, 2011, 04:37:14 PM
:-D  Wu, you're cracking me up dude.  Thanks for saying the pies look awesome.  These pies were a break through for me.  It was a new dough method and I'll be applying it to the wfo next week to see what I get.  

Gaining on me huh? I'll even help you out do me.  How's that?   :-D  Concerning hydration, etc, etc.  I don't usually go by what others are doing per se.  I do use other ppl's methods as guidelines for testing, but I do what the dough requires even if it goes against traditional thinking.  

For example, I have use 100% caputo 00 flour at 62% hydration upto 68% hydration making very soft and pliable doughs.  I'll let you guess at which end the above pies were.  

I like a darker pie like a New Haven style pie, but those are my hybrid pies.  I have lately been fascinated with the challenge of the NP style.  Without going all the way to Naples, I want to see if I can reproduce what the experts are claiming.  Guys like marco, Omid, Scott R, Matthew, John, Roberto, etc.  Is the style really what ppl say it is?  Not just make a pie with the looks, but the right textures, and taste.  

I was recently inspired by a new member Pizza Napoletana's HO pies, the finest I have seen.  To me they are reminiscent of the pizza on the caputo pizzeria bag.  The rim is very light in look and color with little charring.  So that is why I baked these out this way, otherwise I normally would have tried to get more charring.  

Concerning my HO pies versus my WFO pies.  My WFO pies are mostly Hybrid pies similar to what you are making.  These HO pies are my efforts at trying to reproduce a NP pie.  My LBE and MBE pies are also hybrid pies so comparing that to my WFO pies would be a better comparison.  My WFO hybrid pies are really good right now, but I will also be employing this new dough method to that blend to see what I get as well.  

I have only tried to make NP pizzas in my WFO a few times now with so so results.  I'll usually get the wfo HOT and try a NP pie, then let it cool down a bit to my hybrid pies.  My results have been mediocre b/c the dough was correct.

If your goal is UPN or Motorino's, then they are NP and likely using 100% 00 and not a blend.  What you are describing and doing fits more into the Hybrid category leaning more towards NP than NY.  So you may want to consider that.  

My pies tend to retract a bit with the bakes I think.  The first pie is 181gm stretched out to about 10.5-11" and ended up around 10" post bake.  the 2nd pie was 200gm and stretched to 11" or so and baked up a little less.  It was also slightly thick in the center, so next time I'll take it to a full 12" to see what  I get.  

My stone temps on these were 650 or so, next time I'll go with 700, then 750.  I didn't want them to bake too quick in the home oven so I lowered the stone to the 2nd rack from the broiler.  Too quick of a bake and it's just a gummy mess.  

Get a IR thermometer.  It's been an invaluable tool for me.  I prefer to use substitutes around the house when I can instead of always buying new equipment but the IR thermometer is indespensible.  

Look wise, I really prefer texture over looks.  If I can have both then great.  If I can't then, I go for texture first, looks 2nd. Right now I prefer the texture of my wfo hybrid pies over these NP.  I'm keeping an open mind though as someday I may prefer my wfo NP pies more.  They just are 2 different pies.  One is NY and the Italian.  Both can be great in their own right.  

Chau
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: wucactus1 on June 20, 2011, 08:07:35 AM
Ok have taken some of the suggestions into consideration and after watching the pizzapasqule videos on you tube and many others I began making the dough.  I started last night at 11:30.  The dough is a 65% hydration, 75/25(00/hg) dough.  I stirred 75% of the flour with everything for 2min(timed) until it gathered to a mass, waited 5 then added the rest, let it rest 15 then I began Handkneading the dough using my knuckles like in the video until the dough came together smooth and somewhat pliable.  The dough wasnt as  resilient as pasquales, but Im operating within a higher hydration where as his is probably at 60-62%.
I choose to lower the % of starter from 5 to 4 to decrease my chances of over fermenting and creating a dough that is dry.  Im also going to allow the dough plenty of time between balling(which will be done ever so gingerly) and baking to relax and loosen back up...would you suggest 5 or 6 hours?
Hopefully all this turns out well, if so maybe Ill try a 100% 00 dough

links to videos:
http://www.youtube.com/user/pizzaiolopasquale#p/u/28/fhIKYLzNTsk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrMYLg_9Tpc
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jackie Tran on June 20, 2011, 08:19:29 AM
Good luck with the new protocol Wu.  Just keep in mind that higher hydration doughs will ferment faster so don't just go by time.  Keep an eye on the dough, smell it, poke/feel it.

Yes 5-6 hours is sufficient for proofing.  It really depends on the particular dough.  It will relax some in that time, but if you've overdevelop the gluten, then it's unretractable.

Good luck,
Chau
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: wucactus1 on June 20, 2011, 08:39:29 AM
Thanks for the heads up on fermentation.  Just for reference I have attached three pics of the dough as it is now.
A top and bottom picture.  I dont think the dough is anywhere near ready, as the bubbles and voids arent large yet and the dough still smells as if it were just made.
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: wucactus1 on June 20, 2011, 08:40:18 AM
discount the rubberband...it fell off and i just quickly put ti back on not to lose it, it means nothing
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jackie Tran on June 20, 2011, 09:56:19 AM
Wu your dough looks great.  Despite what I said about the textural changes, you should employ a mature starter with a long fermentation (proofing) protocol a few times just to see what you get.  You may find that you like that type of texture much more than I do.

Chau
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: wucactus1 on June 20, 2011, 10:28:53 AM
So Im going to make one pizza tonight and freeze the other dough ball after shaping(doingsome research this is what the najoritytrecommend).  After this I'll have plenty of pizza---2 in the freezer and then one dough ball. I probably wont make pizza for another week or so(who know this could change any moment inspiration strikes), but I do plan on trying a more mature starter, but I want to get my fermentation times and certain temps down first.
I thawed on of my HG/00 pies today and Im going to be devouring one for lunch today, so i'll take a pic of the crumb when I slice it and post it for comparison purposes.
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: wucactus1 on June 20, 2011, 11:24:53 PM
Alrighty...I didnt end up freezing one of the doughs rather when balling them I decided to experiment with the handling.  I balled them both up, but giving one a considerable amount of attention...Incorporating more stretches and folds and bench rolling as well.  After this I decided to put one in the freezer to give it a chill and cool down(5min max in freezer)  and let the other sit out the whole time.  Ill let you guys guess which went in to the freezer as well as which was handled more during balling.
With that said both does when stretching behaved very similarly, actually they both were so slack that it didnt require much handling at all, more or less I floured them laid them on my peel and pushed them out gently moving the air to the edge, I then rather than slapped the dough picked it up with both hands and flipped it over and over until it reached 12".  To my surprise the dough actually stretched to 12" and didnt rip, yay for gluten, but the dough was still so slack and showed no sign of elasticity that I think I need to incorporate more kneading into the beginning stages or reduce my starter % to again wade off any chance of over proofing.  I suspect the overfermentation because of the shear size of the dough balls and ease of handling.  they nearly doubled in diameter and remained relatively at the same height.


Pics actually turned out really bad, so ignore this.  It was the most aesthetically pleasing pizza I have had...
crumb shots suck sry...
Needless to say this is the closest I have ever been to anything authenticly Neapolitan.  The dough was light and didnt sit heavy which enabled me to eat 1.5 pies(well that and the huge climbing workout I did).  The crumb despite me wretched cameras depictions was indeed moist and soft.  The cook times where descent at 1:20.  The only thing that I would change bake wise was that the stone wasnt really hot enough leaving not as much char as I like for underskirts, but you guys judge.  My next experiment for wednesday will be the same dough and timeframe, but with 2% starter instead of 4%.  Ill be flexible with the times though and if i need to bake earlier or later ill do so
Here
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jackie Tran on June 21, 2011, 10:05:06 PM
Wu, I agree - your latest pies are aesthetically pleasing.  What was it about them that you didn't like?  Was it the texture?  Was that off? 

My guess as to which one was in the freezer for 5 minutes is the 2nd pie with more pox.  I haven't been following your recipes lately so I'm not sure what was different about this batch.  Was it a different flour blend or different dough technique?

I have experimented with rough balling versus gentle balling and didn't notice much of difference either.  It does play a small different but not enough to outweigh some of the other major factors like, protein %, hydration ratio, time of fermentation, the way the gluten is developed, etc. 

Chau
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: wucactus1 on June 21, 2011, 10:14:22 PM
Sorry this batch used 4% starter as too 5% and was fermented the same time.  I also handled the dough hand kneading it just as pasquale did in the youtube videos for about the same length.  This gave me definetly more strength and development.  Enough to where the dough wouldnt rip when stretched, but not enough for elasticity, or the elasticity was lost during proofing/overproofing(?).  It took very little effort to stretch it out to roughly 13" where it then shrunk back to 12 when slid onto the stone.  I cant stress the fact that this dough was minimally handled when stretching and the slapping technique would have been far to excessive.  Was overproofing the cause of this or perhaps more initial kneading is "kneaded"!
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: wucactus1 on June 24, 2011, 05:58:54 PM
Alright so under your advice I decided to make two different batches, one using a more traditional method of kneading/making neapolitan style pizza and then one using the tartine method.  The dough preparation/proofing got interrupted when life called/a friend and asked If I want to go look for some boulders down in tennessee and climb, an oppurtunity I couldnt pass up so I went.  because of this I had to shape the balls two hours early and put the dough in the fridge to not overproof.  So opposed to being at rt the whole time they went into the fridge for 9 hours and were baked 3 hours later than usually.  they sat out in 90 degree temps to proof for 1.5 hours before baked.
The Traditionally kneaded pizza was 64/5% hydration and the tartine was 70+1 or 2 due to the water needed on my hands for stretching. 2.5% salt on both and both were 250g balls.  The first pizza(underskirt picture) cooked perfectly!
The tartine method was a bust imo, but I will give it another shot.  The crumb shots are from the traditional method pie.  The crumb wasnt overly moist, but wasnt dry a bit more moisture would have been good.  The moisture loss could have happened from the fermenting process in the fridge where the dough seemed to have lost some water...?
anyway here are the pics and ill let you guys guess which was the tartine, the marinara or the marg...
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: tinroofrusted on June 24, 2011, 07:38:59 PM
Beautiful pizzas Wu.  The leoparding is most impressive.  You bake those in your regular home oven, right?  What temperature do you bake them at? 

Tin Roof 
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jackie Tran on June 24, 2011, 07:46:59 PM
Nice job Wu.  I love that heavily pox'ed look.  I'd love to do that but haven't figured it out yet so I'll be hitting you up via PM or if you want to post in detail what you did so that I might study it more closely to get that poxed look.  

So the only difference between the 2 batches was the hydration?  All else was the same including the starter amount and proof time?  

If so, then I'll guess that the heavily poxed pie, the margherita is the tartine pie.  

Wu you also said that the crumb shots are from the traditional pie but yet you showed both crumbs of the marinara and the margherita.   So are both these crumb shots of the traditional method or is one tartine?  I see one of the crumb shots is from a marinara and the other from a margherita.  Unless you made multiple marinaras and marghertias.

If you thought the crumb of the traditional pie was a bit more dry than normal, that could have been due to the added cold fermentation.  I find that if I'm to cold ferment, I have to adjust the gluten development down a bit to compensate for the small amount of gluten strengthening effect the cold has on the crumb.  

Glad you did the experiment Wu.  I always learn something new from experiments that don't produce optimum results.  I too am experimenting with tomorrow's dough using a modified tartine method.  Actually closer to the LMB method.  I have been making some of my best doughs lately with this method.  

Chau
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: TXCraig1 on June 24, 2011, 08:58:37 PM
That margherita is absolutely stunning. That's the real deal there. Wow! Way to go.

CL
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: wucactus1 on June 25, 2011, 12:11:54 AM
Tinroof-Thanks for the compliments, this pie was really good and I look forward to eating the other half, shamefully reheated tomorrow, but im sure it will be good!  As for the temps I have no Idea.  I have no ir thermometer, I just go by a series of steps that I have found to produce sub two minute bakes.

Chau-The two batches were different in a couple of respects.  One handling and the other Hydration.  When I say traditional I meant in the respect to kneading methods, not toppings.  The crumb shot was from the "traditionally" kneaded pizza as the tartine was a flop in the texture department, it tasted alright, but the margherita(poxed) was the star.  That other crumb shot of the marinara was from a previous bake and it slipped into the post accidentally.  That was from the pizzas before this bake and was also fairly successful.  The dryness was very subtle and may have occurred from the added gluten development, but I feel as the loss of water through excretion from the dough is the culprit, this definitively from the cold fermentation.  As for the tartine method, I think it failed because of a lack of gluten development, or maybe overfermentation, because the crumb was very non-existent, but both batches shared starter percent and time, and the traditionally handled dough puffed up as you can see.
As for the pox, this occurs from nothing more than a well kneaded dough and full/over proofing and some cold fermentation, I bet even two hours in the fridge would do it.  I have two doughballs left that I placed in the fridge.  Im going to bake them later this week, Ill post the pics so we can compare.

Tx-this means alot coming from the man will the acunto, pumping out some of the "most authentic" pizzas on the forum...Im still envious of your oven.  I just try to do the best with what I got.  An electric GE and a target stone!
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: parallei on June 25, 2011, 12:17:12 AM
Those are amazing pies for a home oven....nice work!
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: wucactus1 on June 25, 2011, 12:19:15 AM
The way the cheese melted was kinda weird.  I used cilligine mozz balls(on sale at whole foods) halved and it resulted in these lumpy of 3/4 melted cheese.  It ate fine, but not preferred.  Ill cut them into thirds next time to try and prevent this. Other than that the marg was real good.
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: TXCraig1 on June 25, 2011, 12:29:26 AM
The way the cheese melted was kinda weird.  I used cilligine mozz balls(on sale at whole foods) halved and it resulted in these lumpy of 3/4 melted cheese.  It ate fine, but not preferred.  Ill cut them into thirds next time to try and prevent this. Other than that the marg was real good.

Have you tried tearing apart by hand?
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: wucactus1 on June 25, 2011, 12:32:39 AM
I gave experimented with that and I find it's easier to portion out(I measure exactly how much) when you slice the olvalines, though I do think aesthetically it is better looking to tear it, maybe I'll try this with the small cilligine balls next bake one one pie and then cut it on the other
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: mamasboy on June 26, 2011, 12:53:35 PM
Hi everyone. I just joined the forums but I've been following this thread for a long time.

Chau, Wu - you guys have made some awesome looking pizzas! The pics from posts #185 (Chau) and #201 (Wu) are inspiring and I would love to try to reproduce your results. I am having a hard time understanding exactly how you're doing it though as I don't know all the acronyms and lingo. Would you be willing to dumb it down for me and tell me exactly what recipe you are using and how you are prepping and handling the dough? Sorry for being such a noob.

Much appreciated!
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jackie Tran on June 26, 2011, 01:48:29 PM
Wu, do you want to tackle this one?  ;)
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: wucactus1 on June 26, 2011, 01:56:39 PM
I am at work right now,(new job at whole foods!) I will definitely share my knowledge tonight but tran if you want to start out I can add an elaborate or just leave it to me!
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jackie Tran on June 26, 2011, 02:18:21 PM
I am at work right now,(new job at whole foods!) I will definitely share my knowledge tonight but tran if you want to start out I can add an elaborate or just leave it to me!

Have fun Wu.  ;D
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: mamasboy on June 26, 2011, 07:29:13 PM
Thanks guys. Maybe you don't have to dumb it down completely. I just lost track of specific recipe you used to get those results.
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: forzaroma on June 26, 2011, 08:42:33 PM
Wow are those pies done in a home oven? How did you get that leapording?
Alrighty...I didnt end up freezing one of the doughs rather when balling them I decided to experiment with the handling.  I balled them both up, but giving one a considerable amount of attention...Incorporating more stretches and folds and bench rolling as well.  After this I decided to put one in the freezer to give it a chill and cool down(5min max in freezer)  and let the other sit out the whole time.  Ill let you guys guess which went in to the freezer as well as which was handled more during balling.
With that said both does when stretching behaved very similarly, actually they both were so slack that it didnt require much handling at all, more or less I floured them laid them on my peel and pushed them out gently moving the air to the edge, I then rather than slapped the dough picked it up with both hands and flipped it over and over until it reached 12".  To my surprise the dough actually stretched to 12" and didnt rip, yay for gluten, but the dough was still so slack and showed no sign of elasticity that I think I need to incorporate more kneading into the beginning stages or reduce my starter % to again wade off any chance of over proofing.  I suspect the overfermentation because of the shear size of the dough balls and ease of handling.  they nearly doubled in diameter and remained relatively at the same height.


Pics actually turned out really bad, so ignore this.  It was the most aesthetically pleasing pizza I have had...
crumb shots suck sry...
Needless to say this is the closest I have ever been to anything authenticly Neapolitan.  The dough was light and didnt sit heavy which enabled me to eat 1.5 pies(well that and the huge climbing workout I did).  The crumb despite me wretched cameras depictions was indeed moist and soft.  The cook times where descent at 1:20.  The only thing that I would change bake wise was that the stone wasnt really hot enough leaving not as much char as I like for underskirts, but you guys judge.  My next experiment for wednesday will be the same dough and timeframe, but with 2% starter instead of 4%.  Ill be flexible with the times though and if i need to bake earlier or later ill do so
Here
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: wucactus1 on June 28, 2011, 08:39:59 AM
I have not been neglecting the request for more information, juts hit a stream of bad look...my laptop charger and battery dies, so until then I will be hijacking my girlfriends computer.
But anyway an update on my pizza making before I begin...

I made two pizzas yesterday from two balls that I ended up freezing from the last batch(most recent pictures above).  I formed the dough and put them directly in the freezer, not allowing them to proof at room temp before hand, after a two days in the freezer, I moved them into the fridge where they spent another two days(experiment) and then pulled them out and proofed for 4 hours and then baked.
The dough handled and stretched very nicely and taste wise was good aswell, but this dough fell completely flat, literally in the oven spring department.  Both pizzas showed some leapording just as before, even the tartine method pie, more so than last, but the crumb was the densest I have ever made...reminded me of the vpn place we have in town...I almost purely replicated their dough...and If so i have figured out why the texture is so bad...the freezer.  Maybe I should have proofed the dough before it hit the deep freeze, but the majority said they turned good results from the method I utilized...I will probably never know because I think Im done with the freezer.
Sorry no pic, left my phone in the car on accident.

Alrighty now for the explanation.
I am going to attempt to explain the method used for above from beginning to end.  Chau if he has the time should attempt to do the same in the most detailed way possible...you, I, and everyone else, im sure would love it!

Formula-bakers percents(if you dont understand, search "bakers percents" and youll learn quick!)

100% flour-75/25 blend of 00 and High gluten flour(bouncer found at gfs in 25# bags)
65% water(cool, but not room temp)
2.5% sea salt(fine)
10% starter(a mixture of flour and water used to harvest naturally occuring yeast, search and learn if you dont know.)

Method:Non-tartine...for the tartione method check the tartine pizza thread
Measure out water and add to the bowl.
add the amount of starter, stir to disolve
add 75% of the flour...I add all the caputo, and stir until it somewhat comes together in a "batter"
rest for 5 minutes.
add the remaining 25% of flour(bouncer high gluten) slowly stirring to incorporated before you add the next bit.
once all the flour is added I get my hands dirty.
I put my hand in the dough and start scooping it around the bowl...sort of rolling it around the side of the bowl, using my right hand to guide the dough and then my left to turn the bowl. I do this for 10minutes adding the smallest bit of flour if I need too.
once the dough stops sticking intensely I dump it out on a lightly floured counter and do several stretch and folds, almost like the french kneading method, but softer...search on you tube.
After a couple of these the dough should be really smooth where I place it into a lightly oiled container to rise.  After A designated time I divide the risen dough and let it rest 5 minutes, then I ball the dough.  Tran has a great youtube video called how I ball dough...search it and watch!

How I am able to cook the pizzas in my home oven comes down to the frozen towel.  I trick my oven into thinking its cold and hence it gets hotter.  Normally after a preheat at 550 for 45 min. my oven would stop and turn off, only to return on every once and a while.  but what I do is wrap a damp rag(100% cotton) in aluminum foil and freeze it solid.  Then I take the frozen sleeve and put it onto the thermometer probe in the upper left corner of my oven. And I am able to switch to broil and it wont turn off until I turn it off.  This combined with the placement of my stone(the very top) is what mimics the intense floor and ceiling heat of a wfo.  I have been doing this for a while and have had no problems with the broiler, my probe or anything...just cracked one stone when a pizza inverted itself, but thats my fault.  You should try and if you have any questions pm me or leave them here.
About the leapording..It is great aesthetically to a small degree, but it can be somewhat of an eyesore imo when completely over done, for me I prefer the look that can bee seen in my reply(#198) of this post, to me this pizza aesthetically is great as far as crust goes, the marinara was getting sort of a little to poxy, but still decent.

st
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: mamasboy on June 28, 2011, 10:29:16 AM
Wu,

Thank you so much for this awesome, detailed explanation! I really appreciate it as I am sure it took a lot of effort to put it together. It filled in a lot of gaps for me.

My approach up until now has been a little Frankensteinish - piecing together recipes and techniques from all over the place without any confidence in whether my resting, proofing, refrigeration, and cooking times, along with my dough handling methods and cooking method were properly matched to my recipe percentages and if I actually had any chance of getting a Neapolitan style result in the end. Now I have something that has worked for someone else that I can use as a meaningful starting point to figure out what would work for me.

I will first need to figure out how to get some starter in Toronto. I'm not sure I want another pet but I would like to experience what starter would add to the dough over dried yeast. Once I get some I will try your method as prescribed and report back.

Some minor clarifications:

Again, thanks a lot!
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: wucactus1 on June 28, 2011, 10:42:36 AM
sorry...
Bouncer is the type of flour i used.  it is an aMERICAN HIGH GLUTEN FLOUR MILLED BY BAY STATE MILLS OUT OF THE MIDWEST.
GFS(GORDON FOOD SERVICE) IS a restaurant depot/costco/sams club type of store where they sell products in bulk for restaurants and such.  GFS is open to the public and requires no joining fee.
I do the stretch and folds until the dough is no longer sticky(may still be tacky) and has some body to it.  Almost like sticky puddy...Look up vids on youtube.
The designated fermentTION TIMES i USED AND SUCH ARE IN MY REPLY Above the one that haS ALL THE PICS AND STUFF
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Pete-zza on June 28, 2011, 07:57:08 PM
Wu,

In your discussion in Reply 216, I did not see where the salt was added.

Peter
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: wucactus1 on June 28, 2011, 08:16:00 PM
That's why the dough tasted weird...j/k
I ad the salt after the starter and after about 50% o the flour mix and then add then add the rest of the salt with another 25% of the flour mix and then go about the procedure
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jackie Tran on June 28, 2011, 09:15:08 PM
Wu, I have made decent pizza and poor pizza from frozen dough before.  My opinion is opposite of yours.  When I have fully proofed or almost fully proofed the dough and then frozen it, the results have been poor.  The reason being is that once the dough thaws and comes to room temp it must be used right away and the window of usability decreases, otherwise you run the risk of overproofing => tough crumb.   It is much better to proof the dough up only upto 50% or so and then freeze.  That way when it comes to room temps, you still have time to heat up the oven, etc.

I made this one in the home oven tonight.   I lowered my HR to an "effective" 63%, down from 68% for the latest HO and WFO NP pie.  

I hope I'm getting the hang of NP now.   :angel:

Oh yeah, this one was 100% caputo pizzeria, 2% starter, 18h RT (75F) ferment, hand mixed.  
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: wucactus1 on June 28, 2011, 11:28:29 PM
I didnt fully proof the balls before freezing, but yet balled and immediately froze.  I cold fermented to trry and produce some rise and flavor.  No rise and some flavor.  I am not going to experiment with freezing but use it as a means of emergency.
Your pizza looks good.  I am going back to a similar workflow...Crum looks descent, how did it eat?
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jackie Tran on June 29, 2011, 12:08:39 AM
Wu, I'm a bit surprise that you didn't get any rise at all unless the yeast amount was so small that the freezing process killed them off.  But I would say that is rare so I'm at a lost for a good explanation.

At one time I had this idea of making and freezing doughballs for future use.  Now I just can't see me doing that.

I think the crumb looks pretty good considering it's 100% 00.  If you want a challenge, drop that last 25% BF/HG flour.  The pie ate well, but not as good as it's WFO counterpart.

I'm by no means there and still actively experimenting myself.
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: wucactus1 on June 29, 2011, 04:48:07 AM
Yeah the freezin was odd a's many manufacturers do only frozen dough, perhaps I may freeze another ball sometime in future and see if something else happens.

A's far a's wfo and ho...I have found very little difference in taste, just the fact that the home oven pizzas may get cooler faster. I had extremely similar results with both methods, granted at some level I'm sure the wfo is better.
I'm making pizza this weekend if the gf permits.  I'll try your formula and see what happens.
Was the crumb still moist despite the lower hydration?  Dud you have to knead it noticeably more than with the hg added? Did you also have to get your oven hotter to achieve a full bake with the subtraction of the added malt found in the hg?
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jackie Tran on June 29, 2011, 07:43:49 AM
Wu you must have a better HO for making pizza than I.  In my Viking and using a broiler method, I cannot achieve a straight bake.  That is to say, I can't simply load the pie and turn it periodically and achieve good coloration on the lateral walls of the crown.  

I must resort to "rimming" of the pie.  That is bake the bottom fully, top partially, pull the pie out and angle an edge against the active broiler to char it.  Turn and repeat, while the majority of the pie is cooling outside the oven. This method creates a nice look but a bit of an uneven bake to the crumb.

Not withstanding the different potentials of different HOs, you may find different results if you repeat your test (HO vs WFO) a year from now if you continue to actively progress.  You may find that the pies to be more perceptually different.   They just have distinctly different baking dynamics and thus give different products.  Better or worse, worth it or not, achievable or not, can all be arguable.

I'm probably the last guy that would reccommend an expensive piece of equipment to anyone.  The opposite is true.  I'd be the first to find a workaround if possible.  

Can a NP be made in a HO?  While many told me NO, I say yes.  Is it as good compared  to my wfo?  No, my wfo undoubtedly makes a better NP pie.  It achieves a more balanced bake all at once.  I don't lose heat while turning the pie.  BUT I'll still work at it though.  The day my dough skills overcome the inadequacies of my HO, you will be the first to know.

Do you need a wfo to make the best NP you can? I would say likely yes.   Now, if your aim is to make an elite style pie, such as what I do in my MBE/LBE then I would say that the difference becomes much less.

IMO and from others that I have read, the WFO does not impart some sort of a smokey taste or extra taste to the crust.  It is the baking (heating) dynamics that create the perceivable differences.

Chau
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jackie Tran on June 29, 2011, 07:56:42 AM
Was the crumb still moist despite the lower hydration?  Dud you have to knead it noticeably more than with the hg added? Did you also have to get your oven hotter to achieve a full bake with the subtraction of the added malt found in the hg?


B/c my home oven is likely inherently different than yours, my answers may not carry weight in your kitchen.  The crumb was still moist but not quite as moist/wet, soft, and tender compared to the 68% dough.  Both were baked in a similar manner and time frame.

By dropping the hydration I didn't have to manipulate the dough more compared to my usual higher hydration formula with 25% HG.  YMMV here.  I also haven't done very many hybrid pies baked quickly in my HO.  Lately, it has been either straight 00 or a more NY style pie baked out longer.

I got the oven to the same temps as before.  The only difference was the lower hydration.

Chau
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: wucactus1 on June 29, 2011, 09:40:57 PM
Regarding when I bake my pies...it seems as though they require way LESS maintenance than yours.  All I do is slide the pie in and wait...With the light on I am able to see the entire pizza without opening the door.  I use the bottom rims to approximate underskirt "doneness" and at most my pizzas require one turn and that is to move the back right quadrant to the front.  This is somewhat consistant as my broilers back quarter must be different(hotter), but I dont know why...As for my broiler it is electric and a large coil that spans the entire ceiling.  This is clearly an advantage, because when I go home to my parents house and occasionally make pizza i find my self handling the pizzas alot more do to the fact that the burner is centrally located and the heat radiating outwards only gets even more sporadic...so the key to minimal handling=electricity...even when i used a wfo i had to spin the pizzas more.
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jackie Tran on July 17, 2011, 08:53:08 PM
So I had planned on baking pizza in the LBE tonight.  After the first pie cooked, I opened and topped the 2nd pie, came out to the garage and empty on propane!   :(  

Also did not have a back up tank like I usually do.  >:(  So I had to fire the home oven quickly, while my pizza skin sat on the wooden peel.  This is not a good situation.  Transfered the topped pie back on my workbench and covered the pie waiting for the oven to heat up.  I also transferred my hot stone with leather gloves to under the broiler, which I really didn't want to do but I didn't want to ditch the pie at this point.  Needles to say, I didn't let the oven heat up fully and was lucky to be able to slip the GI metal peel under the pie and transfer it back onto my short handle wooden peel.

Here is the pie.   ::)

The rim did not rise much at all which was disappointing but it reminded me of some of the Naples pies I've seen with a flat rim.  I decided to make a video showing me tearing it similar to another video posted of a da michele pie.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vl3Xdh14NHc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vl3Xdh14NHc)

Please excuse the messy kitchen and kids screaming in the background.   :-D

Chau
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jet_deck on July 17, 2011, 09:08:20 PM
Loved the video of the da Chau pie.  I was in suspence while you decided if it was good or not. :chef:
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jackie Tran on July 18, 2011, 10:27:53 PM
Thanks Gene.  I didn't want to be like one of those morning news folks who declare a food great as soon as it touches their lips.   :-D

Chau
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: plainslicer on July 22, 2011, 08:08:14 PM
Chau, I ate at Da Michele two weeks ago and I can confirm that looks just like the real deal. I bet it tasted as good or even better. That it was done in your home oven is quite the accomplishment. From the video, the thickness and texture look about right.

DM and Antica Costa were no doubt the finest pizzas I've ever had, but in the end they weren't all that exciting, as strange as that may sound--not sure I've got a good way to explain that. I would have tried more places (I had a list of 6 to try) but tripping quite badly on the sidewalk turned my two and half days in Naples into one and a half days hotel-bound with blinding foot pain. C'est la vie, right?
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jackie Tran on July 23, 2011, 08:44:32 AM
Thank you for the nice words Plainslicer.  Very cool that you got a chance to visit the motherland and try the real thing.  It's always really great to get feedback from forum members who are more critical about pizza and have more experience than the average pizza critic like Julia Roberts.  :-)

DM and Antica Costa were no doubt the finest pizzas I've ever had, but in the end they weren't all that exciting, as strange as that may sound--not sure I've got a good way to explain that.

That doesn't sound strange at all and I thank you for your honest feedback.  Naples pizza, as I have been told by a few others is no doubt very good in it's own right.  It is respectable and has all the history and tradition behind it.  So many wonderful aspects to it but it doesn't have to be the best pie in the world!  If it is for some, then that's all well and good too.  

But for me, it would be like saying fresh baguettes from a certain deli in Paris is hands down the best bread in the world.  Really?  What about all the other greats?  A really great sourdough, a ciabatta, foccacia, on and on?  The best doesn't leave room for anything else does it?  It doesn't leave room for any of the other great styles out there.

Plainslicer, I (and other members I'm sure) would love to see some pictures from your trip including pics from DM and Antica Costa.  

Chau
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: plainslicer on July 26, 2011, 11:28:18 AM
I wish I had pictures, but I don't. I brought along a disposable camera but totally forgot to bring it to the pizzerias. I have yet to replace the digital camera I had stolen during a UK trip in 2006. :-[

The first thing I noticed about Da Michele was its bold tomato sauce. Looking back at that comprehensive Italian video about their kitchen, they showed the sauce being ground from a whole can of tomatoes including the puree. That might explain that. It was different from any Neapolitan I've had in the US. I don't think they add any salt.

The cheese at both DM and Costa was great. I had fior di latte at both. The crusts were saltier than any US NP I've had. It was very hot outside and as has been discussed here they sometimes control the fermentation speed by increasing the salt level. Alone it was a bit much. Surprisingly, at DM I got a generous amount of sauce. Even with the parmesan on top and the salty crust below it threw off the balance. The whole thing could have used a sprinkling of salt.

I ate my pizza at Costa (one of the little ones in the heated case, but it had just come out) folded up libretto/portafoglio style. Maybe it's in my head but the way you eat pizza changes its flavor. Costa was well-balanced but I was also eating everything sandwiched between the many layers of salty crust. I read here that Costa's dough is made with crisceto. If that is indeed the case, it is just like Marco described where no sour flavor is detectable.

The rims at both places were flatter than at most places in the US. It helps when folding into a libretto. At both there were bits of crispiness on the rim but nowhere else. DM's was easily cut with a dull knife and was not gummy. Leoparding was limited to small black dots here and there.

Overall I think it's worth tacking a day or two in Naples onto another trip as I did, but probably not a visit on its own. A food trip including various parts of Italy would have been much more interesting, I think.

I did have a bad pizza in Naples--at the airport. I figured I'd give it a try since it was not that expensive. It was made in a deck oven with temps around 650 F. I didn't notice immediately but the skin was thrown in a sheeter. It baked up flat and even after several minutes it didn't get much color (maybe using unmalted flour?). It was lousy but not offensive.

I'm not exactly an expert but I hope this is a helpful enough review.

Oh, I forgot: the oils did not have distinct flavors but maybe worked as a "glue" as has been suggested elsewhere. There was a big plastic container of sunflower seed oil (olio di girasole) in the trash can at Costa's kitchen.
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: chickenparm on July 29, 2011, 11:50:26 PM
Well,this sucks for me.I have been reading these old posts and others for reference.I cannot get my stone over 670 degrees,even under the broiler the whole time.600 -630 seems to be where it levels out.
A few times when the broiler kicked on,I took some new readings,and 670 was the highest I got,but it dropped off very fast.

I have made a few pizzas recently,no pics,the battery died in the camera I have.

I normally placed the stone on the bottom rack to bake the pizzas first,then moved them up for a broiler finish.They came out great but still do not look anything like a Nea style pie at all.Just a great NY one.Im making new doughs with no oil or sugar,just flour,water,salt and yeast.The last few doughs have been super good and opened up easy,shaped easily and no trouble at all.

Now Im trying to heat the stone really hot under the broiler and Im just not seeing the temps I was hoping for.My stone is cheap crap,and I have no cleaning cycle either,so I still wonder if a new stone or plate would even make a difference.

Not going to give up...but wish I could get the temps up there needed for this style.

 :)








Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: RobynB on July 30, 2011, 12:22:35 AM
Chickenparm, I feel your pain.  I did the same thing for a while, and then shopped my way through the choices from gas grill mods to steel outdoor ovens to the 2stone to saying F-it and that's how we got to our current WFO install.  Prior to that, I bought the Fibrament stone and then the cast iron pizza pan and tried the broiler method and for me the results were uneven and the kitchen gymnastics required weren't worth it.  I read these threads in awe of those who make such gorgeous pizzas in their home ovens, consistently. 
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: chickenparm on July 30, 2011, 12:51:14 AM
Chickenparm, I feel your pain.  I did the same thing for a while, and then shopped my way through the choices from gas grill mods to steel outdoor ovens to the 2stone to saying F-it and that's how we got to our current WFO install.  Prior to that, I bought the Fibrament stone and then the cast iron pizza pan and tried the broiler method and for me the results were uneven and the kitchen gymnastics required weren't worth it.  I read these threads in awe of those who make such gorgeous pizzas in their home ovens, consistently.  

Thanks Robyn...I KNOW I could make even more better,wonderful pies if I was able to get an oven like some of you have done or are working on right now.I believe I am at the point to where I cannot really squeeze any more heat out of the oven itself.

Never stopped me from trying though....I was hoping to be able to make some Nea style pies in the home oven,but I am pretty much stuck in the NY style spot for now.Im sure someday I will try and get a nice WFO or something like it,but for now,gonna do the best I can with what I have.
 ;)
Thanks for your advice and story too! No more gymnastics pie making there for ya!

:)










Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: wucactus1 on July 30, 2011, 07:26:48 AM
aluminum foil wrapped frozen towel...this trick will unlock everything, I used to think i was locked in the ny-style space, but then I threw one of those guys onto my thermostat in the oven and boom sub two minute bakes!  I just preheat the oven until it beeps at 550 and then add the frozen towel switch to broil and wait 15-20 minutes depending on whether or not im using 00 flour or hg(which is fine at highheat, you just have to watch it more.)  Try it, you wont burn down the house or anything, just be careful when putting on the towel.  where a extra long mitt and use tongs!
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: chickenparm on July 30, 2011, 12:13:55 PM
Thanks wu...to be honest,I'm terrified of doing anything MORE to the oven right now.We have been thinking about buying a new oven for the kitchen,and I thought about putting this old one in my detached garage and tinker with it in there.I would not be worried about fire or problems in the garage area.It would allow me to explore new temps and possibly make new pies with it.

My house also has the old style fuse type box,not a circuit breaker switchboard.With stuff being this old,I  don't want to press my luck too much more.At least not inside the house.
 ;)






Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: RobynB on July 30, 2011, 07:11:44 PM
Yah, our home oven is a newer very expensive 36" double oven that I don't want to risk damaging.  Though replacing it would have been a LOT cheaper than the WFO...  ;D
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: chickenparm on July 30, 2011, 08:58:32 PM
Robyn,will you use your new oven often for other foods besides pizza,or is the WFO going to be the spoiled child of the two?

;)

I discovered something today.I think it may have been why I did not see the temps go up like it did once.

The back ceiling of my oven has a exhaust/vent pipe.It releases heat under the rear burner element on top of the stove.I stuffed some foil in there a while back to stop the heat from escaping so much.I guess my wife removed the foil in the exhaust pipe few weeks back and I thought it was still blocked off.I had notice my oven was not getting as hot faster and I thought maybe it was just old from me using it so much.

I was seeing 200+ degrees F coming out of that vent when getting the oven hot today.Im going to block this off again and then see if theres a bit higher heat absorption into the stone plus oven temps.

Chau,sorry dont mean to go off topic here,just trying to duplicate some of the work that was done.

I will report my findings and hopefully if I can get the temps up a little more without the oven tricks just yet.I say I dont want to mess with the oven doing tricks,yet something keeps nagging me in the back of my mind saying,"DO IT BILL!".
 :-D

Btw,will foil help any used around the oven areas like the floors,walls and etc?? I see some folks use this.I dont use foil and wonder if it makes a nice difference when heating the stone on the bottom rack as well,right above the floor?

Thanks.



 :)
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: RobynB on July 30, 2011, 10:19:46 PM
I definitely will use it for other foods!  It will be interesting, because it's a serious "low-dome" oven - 38" diameter floor with the highest center of the dome at 10".  So we are limited in cooking height, but I'm sure we'll figure out how to make most things work.  Being an indoor oven, it will be more convenient to use often than a backyard one. 
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: climbhighak on August 25, 2011, 07:04:31 PM
This magherita was done in my electric oven on a stone under a broiler. I did rush the preheat because I was hungry. The pie went on with the stone around 795F. Usually I wait until it gets to about 850F. The dough was a 62% hydration mix with a bit of sourdough tossed in for flavor. It had cold fermented 4 days. It cooked in about 2:30.

I like to drizzle with olive oil after baking and then also hit with a little bit of grated parm.
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: chickenparm on August 25, 2011, 08:43:04 PM
Climb,that looks fantastic! Nice work!
 8)
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: RobynB on August 25, 2011, 09:27:42 PM
Wow, that is really a gorgeous pizza!!  Very impressive!
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: wucactus1 on March 19, 2012, 11:42:27 PM
made some pizza for the first time in a very long time.  Modified tartine method...65% hydration with 50/50 ap/kabf.  Had the pizza itch not the best pie in the world but good enough to eat.  4hr ferment at rt, balled and retarded for 12hrs at 40o. Then frozen for 24hrs(i messed up my schedule and accidently made the balls 18hrs in advance...dont know why i thought they would retard for 30hrs...oh well).  Th freezer did seem to mess with them too much i dont think, but the pizza did eat a bit tough after it cooled.

Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: wucactus1 on March 19, 2012, 11:42:58 PM
crumb
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: wucactus1 on March 19, 2012, 11:43:25 PM
skirt
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: David Deas on March 20, 2012, 06:29:44 PM
What a really cool thread.
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: randyjohnsonhve on March 20, 2012, 08:46:35 PM

Agree, just read the whole thread myself.

RJelli :chef:
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jackie Tran on March 20, 2012, 10:09:36 PM
You guys may also enjoy the Nearlypolitan thread as well.  

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10024.0.html

Nice job climbhighak and Wucactus!  I love that heavily leoparded look.
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: David Deas on April 10, 2012, 09:40:35 PM
Been toying with my home oven over the past couple weeks after seeing this really neat thread.

I got an experimental Margherita baked in 40 seconds using a home oven that needed only 15 minutes to reach a floor temp of about 900 and a roof temp of ungodly.  Now I need to figure out how to post the images.  Suspect quality images, but images still.
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jackie Tran on April 10, 2012, 09:44:46 PM
Looking forward to your pictures David.   You'll have to resize the images on your computer to 600x800 or enough for web pages as there is a 128kb limit to each post.  I find that if I post 4 small pics, sometimes I can go back and edit the post and squeeze another picture in. 

I have made a few decent NP pies in the home oven.  And they use to say it couldn't be done without a wfo.   ::)  sure it's not the same, but it's pretty close and it's good enough for me. 
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: David Deas on April 10, 2012, 10:10:03 PM
Well.  

There are some key modifications you need to make but it's certainly more than possible.  Posters here have already shown thermocouple isolation, which is one of those things that needs to be done.  Simply moving the thermocouple works well enough.

I have a standard 550 degree oven.

The first thing I noticed when examining the inside of the oven is that it's black.  This may not be ideal.  Although black colored objects typically have a high emissivity, they also have high absorption.  The entire oven interior, including the surface area behind the heating elements, is black.  Because the surface area behind the heating elements is black, that surface is probably going to do a fair job of absorbing radiation and dissipating that energy in the form of radiation, conduction and convection through to the outside of the oven.  This is not ideal.

Ideally you want the heating element to have a view factor of 1 with respect to the pizza, or the pizza stone.  Because the heating elements are round, the view factor is already significantly less.  To increase the effective view factor I mounted a very thin polished aluminum piece directly above the coils with a clearance of about 1 inch.  This will serve as a more effective reflecting surface so that the part of the radiation that would have been transmitted through and lost due to the black surface is now reflected back towards the stone.  Because of aluminum's other characteristics we don't need to worry about it melting unless it touches the heating elements directly.

The next thing I noticed was the size of the compartment I was trying to heat. It had to be reduced, leaving a relatively small compartment size that could be more effectively and efficiently heated.  Here aluminum foil works fine.  So fine in fact that while the top portion of the entire oven compartment is very hot, the bottom portion remains cool to the touch.

These minor modifications result in an oven that hits appropriate temperatures in about 15 minutes and can deliver enough BTU's to the stone surface to leapord a 12 inch pie finished in 40 seconds flat.  Perfect.  Just enough time to tear the basil and mozzarella.

I'll fool with the pictures tomorrow.
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: David Deas on April 11, 2012, 09:52:36 AM
OK.  Here it is, I think.  The first test firing in the slightly modified oven described above.  

40 second bake, timed with a stopwatch.  I did not expect it to cook this fast.  Needs a lot of work.  Liked the soupy interior.  Did not like the dough formulation.  Definitely need an adjusted dough for when baking that fast.
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: dellavecchia on April 11, 2012, 09:57:59 AM
Fantastic David! Now that is an authentic neapolitan pie - not an "Almost..."

John
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: TXCraig1 on April 11, 2012, 10:01:42 AM
I agree - very nice.
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jackie Tran on April 11, 2012, 11:05:41 AM
Beautiful job David.  One of the nicest ones I've seen from a home oven.  If you don't mind posting a shot of your oven setup, I'm sure lots of folks would like to duplicate it.
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Pizza Napoletana on April 11, 2012, 03:43:57 PM
OK.  Here it is, I think.  The first test firing in the slightly modified oven described above.  

40 second bake, timed with a stopwatch.  I did not expect it to cook this fast.  Needs a lot of work.  Liked the soupy interior.  Did not like the dough formulation.  Definitely need an adjusted dough for when baking that fast.

Dear David, it is very impressive what you have achieved with your electric oven! The way you modified your electric oven, per your brief description above, seems much simpler than the way I modified my gas oven. I look forward to more pizzas coming out of your oven. Good day!
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: David Deas on April 11, 2012, 08:45:22 PM
Fantastic David! Now that is an authentic neapolitan pie - not an "Almost..."

John

Thanks.  That means a lot coming from one of the masters.
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: David Deas on April 11, 2012, 08:46:14 PM
I agree - very nice.

Another master.  I appreciate the compliments Craig.
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: David Deas on April 11, 2012, 08:48:42 PM
Beautiful job David.  One of the nicest ones I've seen from a home oven.  If you don't mind posting a shot of your oven setup, I'm sure lots of folks would like to duplicate it.

Thanks Chau. You're the man when it comes to this, I have seen, from reading the thread.

And I will post some oven pictures hopefully tomorrow.
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: David Deas on April 11, 2012, 08:53:37 PM
Dear David, it is very impressive what you have achieved with your electric oven! The way you modified your electric oven, per your brief description above, seems much simpler than the way I modified my gas oven. I look forward to more pizzas coming out of your oven. Good day!

Thanks.  Yeah.  I made a filetti this evening in about 30 or so seconds, give or take.  I might have *too* much heat going on.  I don't even cook that fast in a WFO.

What I like about it is that immediately after turning the oven on, slicing the cherry tomatoes, tearing the cheese, tearing the basil, opening the dough and dressing the skin, the oven was already at temperature for launch.  Very cool.  The whole entire process just all happens in one fluid motion without any waiting around.

I've seen some of your pizzas.  They are nice.  How have you modified your oven?
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Pizza Napoletana on April 12, 2012, 04:32:15 AM
How have you modified your oven?

Dear David, my gas oven (purchased for $100 at Sears) is very basic. It contains no self-cleaning, no electric pilots, no convection fan, and no broil element. In the process of modifying the oven, first, I lined all the oven walls and floor with polished aluminum plates (not foil). Next, I placed a stack of 4 thick, round pizza stones right above the bake element (the only source of heat) to act as the oven floor. About 4 inches above the floor, I placed a large rectangular pizza stone, extended from wall to wall, hence blocking heat escape. This rectangular pizza stone, sealed all the way around, acts as the oven dome/ceiling, which contains two exhaust holes toward the back. At last, in order to minimize heat loss, I installed two heat shields (made out of steel plates that are covered with aluminum plates) at the front of the oven, both the upper and lower areas. Presently, it takes about 1 hour and 30 minutes for the oven floor to reach 850ºF. I have included some pictures below. Good night!
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: David Deas on April 12, 2012, 12:03:52 PM
OK.  Here goes the second test firing.  We have the aforementioned filetti.  

The cherry tomatoes were huge.  Mammoth.  Like small plum tomatoes or something.  Hated it, but that's why they're being used in test.

This was an approximately 30 second bake.  No gum line.  Burrata was barely melted, though.  Curious how that can work.
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: TXCraig1 on April 12, 2012, 12:05:27 PM
Impressive. What does the bottom look like?
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: David Deas on April 12, 2012, 12:22:15 PM
The stone is at about 875-900 degrees at launch according to IR.  So it looks about like how you'd imagine.
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: bakeshack on April 12, 2012, 01:07:42 PM
Nice leoparding.  Would you mind posting your dough formula and workflow even if it's a test formula?

Marlon
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: David Deas on April 12, 2012, 03:55:49 PM
Nice leoparding.  Would you mind posting your dough formula and workflow even if it's a test formula?

Marlon

Incredibly experimental.  But I'm like that.  Normally I'd just grab a sourdough starter and hydrate to about 59% to 60% and be done.  But every now and then I like to play around and see what can be done with different fermentation processes.

Anyways.

This is an old dough method.  The original yeast came from the barm of a Belgian wit.  The yeast characteristics here are very interesting.  The dough turns a brown hue as it matures and smells incredibly sweet.  Like candy.  Best smelling dough ever, IMO.  Unlike anything else you'll find.  These yeast will not produce a great deal of alcohol and will not consume all the sugar in the dough no matter how long left to mature.  As opposed to CY or sourdough (where the longer the fermentation process the less and less sweet the dough becomes), in this case here the longer the fermentation, the sweeter and sweeter the dough became!!  

Towards the tail end of fermentation I like to let a little bit of bacteria into the mix.  They'll play a very subtle sour note at the finish.  Sort of a sweet and sour type of deal.  So the dough does not start out a sourdough, but it ends up as one.

The flour is 00.  Hydration is around 57% or so.  The performance of the dough was fine.  The flavor was just fine, and not overpowering.  But the hydration needed to be increased to probably over 60% I think.  The gluten never degraded one single iota, which is normal for a sourdough and to some extent a pure commercial yeast dough.  I was counting on protein degradation and water release during extended fermentation in order to compensate for the relatively low hydration, but that never occurred.

For a 30 to 40 second pie, I'm not sure what the dough formula should be to be quite honest.  50 seconds is around about my previous record so I'm in brand new territory here as far as I'm concerned.  I haven't made up my mind about whether ultra fast bakes are a negative or a positive thing.  I'll have to play around with the whole thing and see where it leads.

Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: TXCraig1 on April 12, 2012, 04:03:36 PM
I'd love to see the cross section of a 30 second pie if you get another opportunity.
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: David Deas on April 12, 2012, 07:44:36 PM
That's cool.  I gotcha coming.  It'll be a few days because I'm remixing this batch of dough to hopefully better suit it.  When I checked the crumb for these last ones I did not notice anything out of the ordinary though.
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jackie Tran on April 12, 2012, 08:06:27 PM
David, I love that leoparded look but have worked away from it b/c of the undesired aspects of the crumb I would get from my starters.  This yeast sounds really fascinating and could possibly allow for the look while still maintaining a healthy crumb texture.   Your pie reminds me of Toby's Nearlypolitian pies.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10024.msg87446.html#msg87446

A lot of fun to look at for sure. 
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: bakeshack on April 12, 2012, 08:25:47 PM
Towards the tail end of fermentation I like to let a little bit of bacteria into the mix.  They'll play a very subtle sour note at the finish.  Sort of a sweet and sour type of deal.  So the dough does not start out a sourdough, but it ends up as one.

The flour is 00.  Hydration is around 57% or so.  The performance of the dough was fine.  The flavor was just fine, and not overpowering.  But the hydration needed to be increased to probably over 60% I think.  The gluten never degraded one single iota, which is normal for a sourdough and to some extent a pure commercial yeast dough.  I was counting on protein degradation and water release during extended fermentation in order to compensate for the relatively low hydration, but that never occurred.


Thanks David.  Your technique is very interesting especially with the late addition of the bacteria into the mix.  How much culture did you add to the dough in your estimate (% wise)?  How long did you ferment before you added the bacteria into the mix and how many total hours did you ferment the dough before baking?  all room temp fermentation?

Marlon

Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: tinroofrusted on April 12, 2012, 08:32:19 PM
30 seconds! That is really fast. Beautiful leoparding.  And the yeast sounds super interesting too. 

Thanks for posting the pictures.

Regards, 

TinRoof
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: David Deas on April 13, 2012, 12:17:53 PM
David, I love that leoparded look but have worked away from it b/c of the undesired aspects of the crumb I would get from my starters.  This yeast sounds really fascinating and could possibly allow for the look while still maintaining a healthy crumb texture.   Your pie reminds me of Toby's Nearlypolitian pies.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10024.msg87446.html#msg87446

A lot of fun to look at for sure.  

Toby was an ace with his oven.  Whatever happened to him?

I understand what you mean about gluten degradation and sourdough cultures.

The heavy leapording of the last pie I fired may suggest I need to move toward a different flour at these sorts of temperatures and bake times.  A flour that is even more difficult to brown than Caputo (which is already difficult to brown).  Is there a such thing as 000 flour somewhere?
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: David Deas on April 13, 2012, 12:38:48 PM
Thanks David.  Your technique is very interesting especially with the late addition of the bacteria into the mix.  How much culture did you add to the dough in your estimate (% wise)?  How long did you ferment before you added the bacteria into the mix and how many total hours did you ferment the dough before baking?  all room temp fermentation?

Marlon



I'm not so much adding bacteria as I am letting it in.  To let bacteria in, I simply stop doing the things I'm doing to keep it out.

The first time I worked with this particular culture I did not know anything about what I was doing.  I simply put a small amount of yeast slurry into some dough and let it rise for 24 hours at room temperature.  This resulted in a pure sourdough, which wasn't what I wanted.

So this time I changed a few things.  For one, I frothed the yeast.  For two, I added small amounts of flour each day at a time.  For three, I rotated enough fresh oxygen into the preferment from time to time to give the yeast an advantage.  I did a few other things as well, but you get the gist.  The more the yeast thrive, the less, it seems, the bacteria can gain any traction.

The rest of the questions you ask are very detailed.  Posting from a cell phone is not comfortable enough for me to answer at length.  I'll return to edit this post.
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: TXCraig1 on April 13, 2012, 04:28:07 PM
Toby was an ace with his oven.  Whatever happened to him?

He is still around from time to time. He goes by "Foolish Poolish" now.

CL
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: TXCraig1 on April 13, 2012, 04:42:36 PM
I'm not so much adding bacteria as I am letting it in.  To let bacteria in, I simply stop doing the things I'm doing to keep it out.

The first time I worked with this particular culture I did not know anything about what I was doing.  I simply put a small amount of yeast slurry into some dough and let it rise for 24 hours at room temperature.  This resulted in a pure sourdough, which wasn't what I wanted.

So this time I changed a few things.  For one, I frothed the yeast.  For two, I added small amounts of flour each day at a time.  For three, I rotated enough fresh oxygen into the preferment from time to time to give the yeast an advantage.  I did a few other things as well, but you get the gist.  The more the yeast thrive, the less, it seems, the bacteria can gain any traction.

Do you think the yeast and bacteria in your culture are competing for the same food (unlike typical cultures)? If not, I could see how what you are doing would help the yeast multiply faster, but why would it have a negative effect on the bacteria – again unless they were competing for the same food – or perhaps your bacteria are obligatory anaerobes?

I’m wondering if the relatively high oxygen environment somehow makes your bacteria act more like yeast and you just don’t notice them – meaning they are producing more CO2 and ethanol and less acids? 
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: David Deas on April 13, 2012, 05:36:16 PM
Do you think the yeast and bacteria in your culture are competing for the same food (unlike typical cultures)? If not, I could see how what you are doing would help the yeast multiply faster, but why would it have a negative effect on the bacteria – again unless they were competing for the same food – or perhaps your bacteria are obligatory anaerobes?

I’m wondering if the relatively high oxygen environment somehow makes your bacteria act more like yeast and you just don’t notice them – meaning they are producing more CO2 and ethanol and less acids?  


Hmm.

If I were to take a mixture of flour and water and just set it out onto the countertop, within a few days it would begin to smell like buttermilk.  If I were to take an identical mixture of flour and water and add a large enough amount of yeast to it, it would never develop any buttermilk smell.  If I add just the right amount of yeast to a mixture of flour and water, I will get a combination of bacterial activity and yeast activity.

According to my understanding, while yeast and bacteria do enjoy different foods, they also enjoy eating some of the same foods.  There is some overlap present, and it isn't totally insignificant. But I'm not sure the details.

I think of brewing beer.  Much of what you're doing with the wort is keeping out bacteria.  That's basically a huge and difficult part of the job.  And doing that means not only being as sanitary as you can, but making sure the yeast have the clear upper hand in the fermentation process.  If you don't, here come the lactic acid bacteria to ruin everything.

Some of it may have to do with alcohol tolerance.  The alcohol slows down the growth of bacteria.  But lactic acid bacteria are, in fact, quite resistant to alcohol.  Not sure what the mechanisms or combinations of mechanisms are.  Perhaps you have more to add on that?
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: TXCraig1 on April 13, 2012, 05:48:11 PM
I don't know. I think your observation is very interesting. It seemes reasonable to me that the bacteria are still there doing their thing - but maybe it's just a different thing than they do under ordinary culture/dough conditions where there is less oxygen. Even if they are eating the same food supply, are you letting the food supply get to near zero? If not, would the bacteria not still be doing their thing? The yeast may be eating more, but there is still food for the bugs. Helping the yeast only hurts the bacteria if what you're doing to help the yeast also hurts the bacteria (e.g. takes their food, oxygen bad for them, some yeast byproduct hurts them, etc.) Its not intuitive to me how that would be the case here. Just because the yeast are growing faster doesn't automatically mean the bacteria are suppressed, I don't think. I stand to be corrected.

It seems rather different than beer making. As you noted, beer making starts with sanitation. You culture probably starts with bacteria outnumbering your yeast by two or three orders of magnitude.

CL

Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jackie Tran on April 13, 2012, 06:43:19 PM
If the yeast are growing faster, won't the dough be ready sooner?  Maybe bacteria growth isn't suppressed, but I can see it being limited.  So in a way we can manipulate the balance.  If so, would this also work with any SD starter or just certain yeast cultures like David is using?
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: David Deas on April 13, 2012, 07:48:35 PM
What happened to your member status?
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: parallei on April 13, 2012, 08:54:46 PM
Quote
What happened to your member status?

.......








Darn, another self edit......
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: David Deas on April 13, 2012, 10:06:16 PM
I don't know. I think your observation is very interesting. It seemes reasonable to me that the bacteria are still there doing their thing - but maybe it's just a different thing than they do under ordinary culture/dough conditions where there is less oxygen. Even if they are eating the same food supply, are you letting the food supply get to near zero? If not, would the bacteria not still be doing their thing? The yeast may be eating more, but there is still food for the bugs. Helping the yeast only hurts the bacteria if what you're doing to help the yeast also hurts the bacteria (e.g. takes their food, oxygen bad for them, some yeast byproduct hurts them, etc.) Its not intuitive to me how that would be the case here. Just because the yeast are growing faster doesn't automatically mean the bacteria are suppressed, I don't think. I stand to be corrected.

It seems rather different than beer making. As you noted, beer making starts with sanitation. You culture probably starts with bacteria outnumbering your yeast by two or three orders of magnitude.

CL



Not really sure.  But I ended up losing the culture.  It turned into a sourdough.  I've no doubt a very good sourdough, but a sourdough nonetheless.  

Wasn't what I was looking for.

What happened was I tried to feed it too aggressively again.  I took about a 275 gram sample of mother dough and fed it about 0.75 kilograms of flour.  Too much, but I was impatient to do a third test firing.
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Jackie Tran on April 13, 2012, 10:20:58 PM
What happened to your member status?

good question.  Dunno?  Maybe I need to put more quarters in the meter.
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: BrickStoneOven on April 13, 2012, 11:01:46 PM
good question.  Dunno?  Maybe I need to put more quarters in the meter.
:-D
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: David Deas on April 13, 2012, 11:21:56 PM
I'll have to try and find some more barm when I can, Chau.  Shouldn't be long I'm thinking.

In the meantime I have another interesting culture that smells of cheese.  I think it'll make some of the best tasting bread yet, but I just hope it'll be a little easier to work with.  Less temperamental.
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: David Deas on April 16, 2012, 01:31:54 PM
Thanks David.  Your technique is very interesting especially with the late addition of the bacteria into the mix.  How much culture did you add to the dough in your estimate (% wise)?  How long did you ferment before you added the bacteria into the mix and how many total hours did you ferment the dough before baking?  all room temp fermentation?

Marlon



I know I said I'd edit the other post but I think if I do that you'll miss it.

Its important to remember with me, that, what I do depends on what my leavening agent is.  If I have some sort of weird culture, I'll try and go a fermentation route that I feel might coax as much flavor out as possible without impacting the gluten structure.  I try and go right to the edge of the cliff and then stop.  

With this particular barm culture, this is the second time I've ever worked with it.  The first time I worked with it I treated it like any other culture; I added a small amount to a 2.2 pound bag of flour and did a room temperature bulk rise.  That resulted in a pure sourdough.  So I came up with incremental additions as a strategy to keep that from happening in the future.  It worked well.

Initially I was using a preferment.  And to make that preferment I started with a tiny amount of barm that I feed a small amount of flour.  Just before the yeast finished eating I would add more flour, doubling the amount of preferment at each iteration.  Once I had enough preferment to ferment an entire 2.2 pound bag of flour, I stiffened the preferment by adding flour without adding water.  I put this dough ball in the refrigerator.  After some period of time, during which the dough ball turned a light brown hue, I added the rest of the flour and water in order to form the final dough ball.  This dough ball was allowed to bulk rise in the fridge until I got ready to scale and ball.

So as far as ratios, I was roughly doubling each time.  On the last step I added more than double the amount of flour because I knew that by doing that I was giving bacteria their opportunity to come in.  The number of total hours?  I don't know.  The whole process ran over the course of a few days though, so there was some effort involved.  But when you smell rinsed barm, you know that there is no sweeter smell on Earth and you do as much as you can to try and preserve that.
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Giggliato on April 17, 2012, 02:46:35 PM
Well.  

There are some key modifications you need to make but it's certainly more than possible.  Posters here have already shown thermocouple isolation, which is one of those things that needs to be done.  Simply moving the thermocouple works well enough.

I have a standard 550 degree oven.

The first thing I noticed when examining the inside of the oven is that it's black.  This may not be ideal.  Although black colored objects typically have a high emissivity, they also have high absorption.  The entire oven interior, including the surface area behind the heating elements, is black.  Because the surface area behind the heating elements is black, that surface is probably going to do a fair job of absorbing radiation and dissipating that energy in the form of radiation, conduction and convection through to the outside of the oven.  This is not ideal.

Ideally you want the heating element to have a view factor of 1 with respect to the pizza, or the pizza stone.  Because the heating elements are round, the view factor is already significantly less.  To increase the effective view factor I mounted a very thin polished aluminum piece directly above the coils with a clearance of about 1 inch.  This will serve as a more effective reflecting surface so that the part of the radiation that would have been transmitted through and lost due to the black surface is now reflected back towards the stone.  Because of aluminum's other characteristics we don't need to worry about it melting unless it touches the heating elements directly.

The next thing I noticed was the size of the compartment I was trying to heat. It had to be reduced, leaving a relatively small compartment size that could be more effectively and efficiently heated.  Here aluminum foil works fine.  So fine in fact that while the top portion of the entire oven compartment is very hot, the bottom portion remains cool to the touch.

These minor modifications result in an oven that hits appropriate temperatures in about 15 minutes and can deliver enough BTU's to the stone surface to leapord a 12 inch pie finished in 40 seconds flat.  Perfect.  Just enough time to tear the basil and mozzarella.

I'll fool with the pictures tomorrow.

This sounds very interesting. I place my stone on the very top rack of my oven, it's 2.5 inches from the electric heat element. Do you think this is too far? Also the thermocouple is directly behind the heating element, do you simply remove the couple from its holder and place it lower in the oven? I'm at about a 4 minute bake time, but If I could get down to a minute I think I might really have something!   :pizza:
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: David Deas on April 17, 2012, 03:17:33 PM
Yes.  Just detach it and pull it down.  When you get finished simply place it back up.

2.5 inches of clearance is fine.  But you will not get a 60 second bake without a reflective shield behind the heating elements.  Moving the thermocouple by itself will get you down to about 3 minutes give or take, which is in the Varasano range and makes great pizza.  Some might say better.
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: David Deas on April 18, 2012, 01:15:24 PM
Experimental pie #3.  

Since my last batch of dough turned into a sourdough by accident, I prepared a new batch using KAAP.  The protein content of the flour was cut to between 9% and 10% using White Lily flour.  ADY was the leavening agent.  To make up for the reduced protein content, I increased the oven temperature accordingly.  To prevent the bottom from burning, I mopped the stone using water until the stone temperature was around 850 to 875 at launch.

40 second bake (including the time it took to remove and turn the pizza).

Pie accidentally folded some when I was preparing it for photos.  Sloshed away some of the contrast in the middle.  Sucks.

OK.  Here goes, I think:
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: fornographer on April 18, 2012, 06:29:48 PM
How was the flavor of the dough?
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: dellavecchia on April 18, 2012, 07:12:37 PM
David - Interesting choice of paper plates to serve on  ;)

I was wondering if you had any theories on the micro leoparding you achieve. Most of the leoparding I get is large in nature - yours is closer to Da Michele. I know leoparding is tied to fermentation, but I have not connected the dots fully.

John
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: David Deas on April 18, 2012, 10:32:36 PM
How was the flavor of the dough?

Typical 3 day cold ferment.
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: David Deas on April 18, 2012, 10:45:42 PM
David - Interesting choice of paper plates to serve on  ;)

I was wondering if you had any theories on the micro leoparding you achieve. Most of the leoparding I get is large in nature - yours is closer to Da Michele. I know leoparding is tied to fermentation, but I have not connected the dots fully.

John

In my experience leoparding has to do with two things.  The first is the degree of fermentation, as you have stated.  The second is the intensity of the heat you're applying.  If all other variables are set equal, the more intense the heat applied, the more tiny the leopard spots eventually become.

On the other hand, since the protein content of this flour blend is a little bit lower, it takes a greater degree of effort to leopard the pie at all to begin with.  Too low and I'll end up with even browning.  Tomorrow I'll show you a 4th attempt made with this blend of flour where the heat was slightly lower.  You'll note the effect that had on the appearance of the crust.

One of the things I notice about Da Michele is the intense heat of their ovens.  In fact, I'm not sure it wouldn't be better to call their baking thing a furnace.  I do not, however, know anything about their flour.  Do you know anything about Da Michele's flour?
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: jeffereynelson on April 18, 2012, 11:01:23 PM
David- Your picture made me really hungry for Arby's! JK, I hate arbys but your pizza looks really good. I can't wait till I move out of my condo and have more room to maybe do something WF.
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: dellavecchia on April 19, 2012, 07:16:25 AM
Thanks for explanation David. How long is your dough out of the fridge before it is baked?

Also I believe Da Michele is using Caputo Pizzeria.

John
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: David Deas on April 19, 2012, 08:58:32 AM
John, The dough is out at least a few hours before it is opened.


OK.  So.  About that 4th attempt.  

This one below was baked from the same batch of blended KAAP and White Lily as the last.  This was later on during the same day.  But it was baked at a slightly lower temperature, which resulted in broader leopard features.  This bake was around 50-55 seconds.

Here goes:
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: David Deas on April 19, 2012, 08:58:55 AM
What I notice about the crumb is that the longer the pie bakes at a given temperature, the less dense the crumb becomes.  Pies that are baked in the 30-40 second range have a more tight celled structure.

(To be extra clear, I haven't yet said anything about the relative softness of the different crumb structures.  Just the appearance).

Here is a crumb shot:
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: David Deas on April 19, 2012, 08:59:20 AM
Of course, the stone was mopped with water before the pizza was launched so that the bottom did not char excessively.

Here is a bottom shot:
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: David Deas on April 19, 2012, 05:41:53 PM
David- Your picture made me really hungry for Arby's! JK, I hate arbys but your pizza looks really good. I can't wait till I move out of my condo and have more room to maybe do something WF.

Thanks.  I think I just wanted to see if I could do this type of pizza in a home oven.  I know a lot of folks have taken a crack at it.  I figured why not?  It's a really neat challenge, but I think I'm pretty much through with it.  The advantage was that I can potentially make a pizza in 15 minutes.  That's great because if I'm going outside to light some wood, and it's between a rack of ribs or some pizza, the BBQ almost always wins that battle.  Never get around to pizza.
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Matthew on April 19, 2012, 06:18:55 PM
Of course, the stone was mopped with water before the pizza was launched so that the bottom did not char excessively.

Here is a bottom shot:

Impressive

Matt
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: David Deas on April 19, 2012, 08:01:33 PM
Impressive

Matt

I thank you.

I thought the crust was somewhat off what I'd produce with Caputo 00, but these are all just experiments.  In the end I just hope I have added something worthwhile to what was already a really great thread.
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Oceans05 on June 14, 2013, 01:15:51 AM
hello everyone! reviving a thread here...

Recently have been doing much research (many long hours) on this site about trying different techniques for baking in a home oven.

Recently tried the broil technique with a dough I've had in the freezer for almost 2 weeks from Peter Reinhart's recipe guide AMERICAN-STYLE “NEAPOLITAN” PIZZA DOUGH. I obtained a wealth of knowledge and the recipe guide from the craftsy.com website tutorial video from Peter Reinhart. http://www.craftsy.com/class/perfect-pizza-at-home/186 (http://www.craftsy.com/class/perfect-pizza-at-home/186)

• 221⁄2 oz. (638 g / 5 cups) KA bread flour
• 11⁄2 teaspoons (7.5 g) table salt
• 11⁄4 teaspoon (6.25 g) dry active yeast dissolved in 1⁄4 cup (60 mL) warm water – the water should be deducted
from the total water, below
• 2 teaspoons (10 g) honey
• 1⁄2 oz. (14 g / 1 tablespoon) olive oil
• 16 oz. (454 g) water, room temperature

The only thing I added was .60oz of Hodgson VWG. The total mass came out to about 40oz. I then split the dough into 3 balls. 2 -  12oz balls and 1 - 14oz ball. The dough was fermented for 24 hours in the fridge, and then I placed two dough balls in the freezer for later use. The two, 12oz doughs I cooked in my 'normal' fashion since learning my pizza adventure, on Bake at 550 on a pizza stone on the lowest rack, for 8 minutes. The dough from this recipe and my other recipes (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg5635.html#msg5635 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg5635.html#msg5635)) (Pete-zza Tom L NY style reply #65 recipe) were the best pies I've ever made and are what sparked my interest into making pizza! The 8 minute bake times were short, since I was used to the normal lower temp. 15-20 min bake times most american recipes call for (preposterous). I thought they came out great, crispy outside, slight browning on the cornicione, very nice airy bubbles on the crust, and overall pretty good. I have been experimenting with 10oz doughs for 12-13" pies and 20oz doughs for 13-14" pies. I liked the doughy texture of the larger pies, my girlfriend preferred the foldable crusts from the smaller pies.

I have been drooling over Tran's and Craig's pizzas, and decided to try a method I read here: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,23362.0.html (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,23362.0.html)

I placed my stone on the second from the top rack, preheat baked on 550 for an hour. Switched dial to broil and opened and closed oven to activate, and left on for about 20 min. I tried a different technique of preparing dough on bench and then sliding onto peel and having sides fold over as I saw here: Pizza Tonight Da Michele movie (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzUIy7PuV1g#)

I topped with 4 oz of Reinharts favorite sauce recipe with SM Tomatoes, 4 oz of Trader Joes WM Mozz, and Turkey Pepperoni pieces.

I dusted the peel with KAAP flour (less than usual) and also a bit of cornmeal (less than usual)

Keep in mind this dough was the 14oz dough I had in the freezer for about 2 weeks, I placed it in the fridge yesterday night for defrosting (about 20 hours I think) and then let it warm to room temp for about 40 min before I spread it. I was worried it would be bad because it had huge bubbles (I read and saw a picture from Varasano showing over-proofed dough, not to do that). They were not popped so I carefully went ahead and made the pizza anyway (we were hungry too)

I have been making 8 minute pies weekly for the last 4 months, spinning the dough about 4 minutes through.

I didn't know what to expect with this new technique I was trying, and I was expecting maybe a 3-4 min bake time. I opened the oven after a minute and was amazed, quickly rotated the pie, closed oven, a minute and twenty second later I checked it again and it was charring and the cheese and sauce were bubbling I became scared as the dough was 'whiter' than my 'normal 8 min'. I removed from oven after.. wait for it... 2:20 min and placed on cooling rack and flipped a hoot.

My girlfriend was in shock, she said, usually when we experiment it could go bad or good, and this was awesome! I like this technique! LOL

The cornicione was amazing, my first leoparding spots, very foldable, and wowzers was it amazing. I did notice the interior of the dough tasted slightly undercooked, but what the hell it was so good. The outer layer was thin paper crust like, the interior was airy and moist. I do not have any photos of my previous pies, but whenever I made a pizza that was 20oz at 14" I liked the pizza, I ate the crust and all. When I made pies at 10oz 13" the crust was more crusty and I left them aside and my girlfriend ate them.

Needless to say, I think I found an awesome technique for what I have been desiring, just need to tweak my dough formulations to have a slightly less wet interior, and so it cooks evenly. No, I do not know the temp of the oven, All I know is it was def hotter than the 550 dial.

I have been lurking for 5 months and finally feel that I have something worth posting and somewhat proud of my results! The pics were taken with an iPhone 5 camera
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: f.montoya on June 14, 2013, 01:25:08 AM
Very impressive!! They look awesome!! The only thing I might suggest is getting your pics in some bright sunshine, or at least some bright lighting. Sunlight or natural lighting coming in from a window is best...that way you do your artwork some justice!  :)
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Oceans05 on June 14, 2013, 02:09:58 AM
Thank you! I know the kitchen lighting and the camera phone are not the best. I ran to grab my digital camera and the batteries were dead  :-X

Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: 9slicePie on September 21, 2016, 06:58:50 PM
I'm trying to get into making Neapolitan pizzas at home.  Good thread, this!
Title: Re: Almost-WFO-politans but baked in the home oven thread.....
Post by: Neopolitan on September 22, 2016, 05:45:32 AM
Well since I'm starting to make these pies and have no other place to put them, I thought I would start a new thread.   These are technically nearlypolitans but "almost-wood-fired-oven-politans" is much more fun to say.   :-D

FWIW, I decided that I want a WFO so that will be my next project.  Until then though, a guy's gotta eat right?

These have been posted in other threads but I'm reintroducing them here.  These 2 were made recently.  A caprese pizza and a classic margherita.

I don't remember about the first one but the margherita was made with AP flour.

I'm A bitt slow sometimes but I think I prefer "Wood-fired-Politicians" 8)

But what a nice tread that i totaly missed out on al these years baking my Neopolipies