Pizza Making Forum

Pizza Making => New York Style => Topic started by: PizzaEater101 on July 28, 2011, 12:26:07 AM

Title: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: PizzaEater101 on July 28, 2011, 12:26:07 AM
On Saturday I went to San Diego with my friend.  My wife was with her family hanging out and I wanted to go to SD to get away for the day.  We left about 10:00 AM and it took an unusually long drive of about 3.5 hours.  Normally 2 hours but there was major traffic jams for miles upon miles.  I did know of Pizzeria Luigi in SD for a few months.  I was last in SD about 2 months ago but did not make it to the pizzeria although it was in my thoughts but my wife and I did eat at all these other great places but the pizzeria.  Well this time when I got there with my friend I was intent upon trying Pizzeria Luigi.  I love pizza but I would not drive 2 hours or this case 3.5 just for pizza but I planned on going to SD for the day and knew I was going to eat at two places, one Pizzeria Luigi and two, Anthony's Fish Grotto on the bay. 

We were hungry when we got to SD so we went to the pizzeria.  Dollar for dollar, piece for piece, as you guessed it would be more economical to buy a whole pizza rather than by the piece and I'd have left overs and bring it home.  Well we were so hungry we polished off all but one piece.  I brought that piece home to my wife.  Honestly I wish we went by the piece so I could have tried different variations and I'd not stuff myself because after that I was full for hours and could not eat at Anthony's Fish Grotto.  It would have been a waste of money and calories to eat at Anthony's, so we decided by the evening to skip on my fave fish n chips. That sucked.  But the pizza was great so maybe that's okay.  We ordered a simple pepperoni and sausage. 

I never had real NY Pizza simply because I've never been to NY.  But from the NY style pies I've had in the Los Angeles area I'd say this stacks up really good.  Is this better than Sbarro, or King of NY Pizza, or Mama's Brick Oven Pizza, or any other I have tried?  I don't know.  I mean all the places mentioned have great NY style pizza so I can't say that one is better than another.  I love them all.  The sauce at all these places are a bit different, all them the crust taste a bit different but they are all good.  Let's just say I'm satisfied and I'll go back again and get different slices to try the diff ones.  I should have tried the meatball pizza slice because it looked great.  I love meatballs.  There is some controversy of whether or not meatballs belong on pizza or not but I don't care I like meatballs and that pizza looked great.

One last thing, you know how if you go to a restaurant and it's empty or close to it then beware it might not be very good?  Well this was the opposite, it was packed.  Good sign.  Also this guy in front of us in line was ordering by the slice and he had ordered 4 different types, I forgot which but 4 but he did.  Then I saw him go back and order another slice.   Then when he was done he walked by our table and he looked at the pizza on the pan and we looked and him and in a friendly way he said this pizza is great and I looked back and him and said that this is great pizza.    Also the owner who is in the video was not there that day, I figure it's the weekend and he didn't want to work on the weekend and left it to his trusted manager and staff to take care of business.

When in San Diego try the Pizzeria Luigi.

Please see this video.  I found out about this place on "Diners, Drive Ins and Dives" -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PRA_BJYvTc
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on July 28, 2011, 08:03:38 AM
James,

Thanks for explaining how Pizzeria Luigiís pizza are.  They sure look and sound delicious.  :) I enjoyed watching the video and seeing how they make their dough, sauce, and toss their pizzas.  All their pizzas look really good to me.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: PizzaEater101 on July 28, 2011, 10:48:59 AM
Norma, glad you liked the review.  I definately would go there again it's so good but this time I'll try by the slice even if it's not so economical compared to a whole pizza, just so I could try the different ones and so I don't over eat so I can eat my fish later at Anthony's Fish Grotto - http://www.gofishanthonys.com/index2.html
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: chickenparm on July 28, 2011, 03:45:38 PM
I remember you telling me about this place and glad you got a chance to go.The slices always cost more in the end,but then you can't sample the others.Makes it hard to decide what to do.

What stood out best for you if you really think about it?

I had the same problem in NY,I could never fully decide which places I liked best.It was more of like,today I'm in the mood for Antonio's Pizza,and next week I would be in the mood for Ono's or something along those lines.They were all good,just a little bit different here and there.Most of the time it was the sauce or the crust.The cheese,I could not tell them apart.I think they all used the same supplier for that.
 :)


Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: PizzaEater101 on July 29, 2011, 01:29:40 PM
Bill, the taste of the sauce was very good.  Very flavorful.  It really stood out for me.  The crust was very good too.     Different than other pizzas but it still of course is NY style so even if there are differences in taste between the other NY pizzas I've tried that's okay because each has it's own characteristics. 
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: NYN8IVE on August 19, 2011, 12:35:30 PM
I've been going there since I saw that segment on DD&D a few years ago. Being an Ex NYer I tend to be picky but it certainly is as good as you're going to find in Southern California.
Not sure which location you went to, I usually go to the one on El Cajon Blvd which is short on Atmosphere but usually not crowded.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: PizzaEater101 on August 19, 2011, 01:04:23 PM
I've been going there since I saw that segment on DD&D a few years ago. Being an Ex NYer I tend to be picky but it certainly is as good as you're going to find in Southern California.
Not sure which location you went to, I usually go to the one on El Cajon Blvd which is short on Atmosphere but usually not crowded.

Glad to get a post from someone who goes to Luigi also.  I had no idea there were more than one location.  I looked it up before I went to SD and found the address of only one and went there.  Guess it's good though I only found one address because I went to the one that DD&D was filmed at.  I'm not sure because I'm not super familiar with SD but I think this one was near the Zoo but I might be wrong.  Did not see the owner but having more than one location explains why he was not there.  I thought it was because it was Saturday and he takes the day off but he may have been at the other location.

Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: scott123 on August 19, 2011, 02:20:07 PM
It's a little crispier/lower hydration than what I prefer, but, as far as NY style pizza outside of NY goes, that's one of the best looking pies I've seen.  The thickness factor and diameter- perfect.

The whole Milan thing is a little silly, though. They don't make pizza like that in Milan. I think they're trying to give this guy some mystique, when it's blatantly obvious that he worked for a while in a NY pizzeria, 'borrowed' their technique and then moved to SoCal.

The flour bag says 'Pe', so I can only assume this is Pendleton.  Anyone here recognize the kind of Pendleton he's using?
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: scott123 on August 19, 2011, 08:43:15 PM
Also, if any members here go there any time soon, I'd appreciate it if they could get a bake time for a plain cheese pie.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: chickenparm on August 19, 2011, 11:09:22 PM
Any idea what the hydration is for their doughs?
 :)
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: scott123 on August 20, 2011, 12:55:43 AM
Any idea what the hydration is for their doughs?
 :)

That red writing on the bag would make it either Power flour (13.5%) or Mondako (11.9%),  unless someone chimes in who recognizes it, my money is on Power flour.  Based upon the almost complete lack of tackiness of his dough and the amount of exertion it takes for him to open it up, I would say that his hydration is no more than the rated absorption value. For Power flour, that's 65%. My best guess would be 64-65.  If it's Mondako, with a rated absorption value of 63, then I'd say 62-63.  My money is on Power flour at 65.

I was also going to say that this looks like a typical same day dough, but when they open the proofing box, I'm seeing shiny wet condensation on the dough. I think. You don't normally see condensation on same day, room temperature doughs.  At least, not to my knowledge.

Oh, and if anyone's interested, 18 oz. translates into a .070" thickness factor. This is what thin crust/NY style pizza should be. .070" x 18"- nothing touches it.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: scott123 on August 20, 2011, 05:41:07 PM
Update, I went through the video again and got a screenshot of part of the lettering on the side of the bag.

I think we can all agree that there's an E there.  And it looks a lot like the lower half of a W.  Pendleton does sell a 'Pizza Blend', which, I'm told, is pretty much the same as Mondako, but I don't think the lettering is 'BLEND.' I'm going with the WE of POWER.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on August 20, 2011, 07:35:26 PM
scott123,

I believe that you are correct that the flour that Luigi uses is Pendleton flour. At first I wondered how you were so certain of that especially since the Pendleton website, at http://www.pfmills.com/premium-flours-pages-3.php, shows the labeling on their flour bags in block format, not cursive script. I then recalled that I had an old technical bulletin that was sent to me by Pendleton several years ago, in September, 2004, when I last researched the Pendleton flours, that showed the labeling on their flour bags in cursive script, with the highly stylized ďPĒ at the beginning of its name. That document is an earlier version of the new Technical Bulletin that is accessible at the Pendleton website at http://www.pfmills.com/technical-booklet-pages-24.php. I also recalled that in the early part of this year, about a year or so after the Pizzeria Luigi You Tube video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PRA_BJYvTc) was posted (November, 2009), Pendleton did a makeover in which it changed its image and name. For details, see the press release at http://www.pfmills.com/a-new-pendleton-flour-mills-news-4.php. The new technical bulletin referenced above shows the new image and name change.

As between the three Pendleton flours that you mentioned, I am inclined to go with the Power flour. At 13.5% protein, Pendleton itself considers that flour to be a high gluten flour and, in the video, Guy Fieri mentions that the flour is a high gluten flour. By contrast, the Mondako flour has a protein content of 11.9%. To me, that is more in line with a bread flour but there are some who might consider such a flour to be a ďhigh glutenĒ flour. Although the Mondako Pizza Mix is a very popular blend among pizza operators in California, I would rule it out simply because it is a pizza mix that only requires the addition of water (http://www.pfmills.com/mondako-pizza-mix-products-19.php). Also, at 12% protein, I would not consider it to be a high gluten flour.

On the assumption that Luigi is using the Pendleton Power flour, I would agree with you that a hydration value of around 65% is a plausible number.

With respect to the dough balls made at Pizzeria Luigi, you might take a look at the ďGallery of Photos for Pizzeria Luigi- Golden HillĒ at the Pizzeria Luigi website at http://pizzerialuigi.com/goldenhill/ghgallery.html. In the fourth set of photos, you will see three dough balls in a dough box. Moreover, if you continue on to the sixth set of photos, you will see cans of Stanislaus Full-Red Extra Heavy Tomato Puree (for details, see http://www.stanislaus.com/products/real-italian-products/from-scratch-products#frPuree). While you are at it, you might also want to take a look at the fourth photo at the yelp website at http://www.yelp.com/biz/pizzeria-luigi-san-diego, where you will see another image of dough balls (http://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/ieatOFaTeDqXEV01_GT5_Q?select=NoF5rhJu-yyOQ7AiJ4RjBw), along with cans of Stanislaus 7/11 Ground Tomatoes (http://www.stanislaus.com/products/real-italian-products/from-scratch-products#Ground). Presumably, one or both of the Stanislaus tomato products is used to make the pizza sauce shown in the video.

From what I can tell from the video, the only ingredients used to make Luigiís dough are flour (high gluten), bottled water, active dry yeast (not a great deal that I can see), sugar (a small amount that goes into the mixer bowl after the yeast is dissolved in the water), and salt. Apparently there is no oil. What we don't know is the method of fermentation and its duration. Knowing that information should allow one to calculate an amount of ADY to use, taking into account the fact that the ADY is not rehydrated optimally when using room temperature water.

You might also have noticed from the Pizzeria Luigi website that the FoodNetwork has a recipe for the Mona Lisa pizza that is featured toward the end of the video. That recipe, at http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/pizzeria-luigi--mona-lisa-pizza-recipe/index.html, is presumably for the ordinary home pizza maker who does not have access to high gluten flour but has access to all-purpose flour. Apart from the fact that the recipe calls for two whole packets of ADY (one for each pizza), I wondered how the reviewers of the recipe coped with the fact that 1 Ĺ cups of water (warm) for 3 Ĺ cups of all-purpose flour yields a hydration of around 80%. However, I saw no complaints on that score. What may be most useful from the recipe, however, is the amount of sauce and cheese for each pizza. Also, the cheese is specified as being whole milk mozzarella cheese. In various photos I looked at, I saw that Luigi uses Polly-O ricotta cheese but did not find mention anywhere of the brand and type of mozzarella cheese. Absent resolution of this issue, I would tend to go with the whole milk mozzarella cheese. The FoodNetwork Mona Lisa recipe also correctly identifies the ingredients that go into the sauce. So the recipe does appear to have some credible information in relation to what the video shows.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: scott123 on August 20, 2011, 09:02:54 PM
Peter, thanks, that's a big help. I was not aware that the Pizza Blend I've been seeing references to is a just-add-water mix.  And, yes, Guy Fieri did say "high gluten."  With his diminished intellect ;), he would probably never say "high gluten" unless he wasn't reading it off the bag in front of him. So I think the case is closed on the Luigi flour mystery.

80% hydration and two whole packets of yeast... Yup, that's the food network for you.  I'm wondering if he gave them his recipe and they modified it or if he modified it before handing it in. It could be him.  As much as Luigi makes an amazing pizza, I don't think he completely understands it.  The comments about the water, the blank look he gives Guy Fieri when Guy talks about the time it takes for the flavors of the herbs to come out in the sauce, the, imo, kind of silly hand mixing- the pizza may be his sole creation, or... he might be mimicing someone else. I'm wondering if Luigi's has any kind of consistency issues, like when the weather is warmer or cooler.  People who understand pizza (like Brian Spangler) can usually adapt to curve balls better than those that don't.

The topping ratios (and ingredients) feel like they are unmodified.  14 oz. of sauce is LOT of sauce. In theory, it could be two 7 oz. ladles worth, but they may not be calculating the amount of sauce that sticks to the ladle between dispenses. It's also heavy on the cheese.  I've been slowly increasing my cheese to a point where I thought I was pushing the envelope, only to see Luigi use about 10% more cheese than I'm using. I think he can get away with that much cheese because of the thin thickness factor.  If I go that high, my cheese doesn't bubble and melt sufficiently and there's nothing more than I hate than marginally melted cheese.

Speaking of cheese, does anyone recognize that electric cheese grater? Me want.

As I watch the videos over and over again, there's a couple things that are bothering me a bit.  Nothing that would prevent me from going there if I were in the area, just little stuff. First off, if he's going to have hair that long (it's now apparently even longer), he's got to have a hat or a net. Secondly, I applaud, to an extent, his copious selection of topping combinations, but it's obviously that some combos sell better than others and that some of those slices in the case look more than a little long in the tooth. He really needs to make slice pies of only his best selling stuff and, if people want a special combo, then it has to be ordered as a whole pie. And I don't know if that case is refrigerated, but, if it is, it shouldn't be, as refrigeration accelerates staling in freshly made bread.

I have to be honest, watching this video over and over again is a little frustating. I can make this pizza, but I can't, right now, go out and buy this pizza (and I want this pizza right now ;) ).  I've covered a lot of ground and it doesn't seem like there are a lot of places West of the Hudson that put out this kind of pie.  My gut tells me they exist, I just can't find them.   For all intents and purposes, this is about as traditional as you can get for NY style, but NY style, in the NY area, has, unfortunately, taken a turn for the worse in recent years, and the places that still put out great pies aren't getting a lot of word of mouth because of the Neapolitan craze. In other words, until I can get a chance to make my own pizza, I'm kind of dying here  ;D
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on August 20, 2011, 09:45:34 PM
scott123,

I tried to find a calligraphy type of font for the letter P in Pendleton and the closest I could find is the stylized P shown at http://www.dafont.com/ballpark-weiner.font. I didn't mention it earlier, but the word Pendleton on the flour bag is in an oval just like you can see in your earlier photo. I am pretty sure the flour is a Pendleton flour.

To be clear, the amount of sauce and cheese in the FoodNetwork recipe is for two pizzas. So, the sauce for a single pizza would be seven ounces and the cheese would be 6.5 ounces. Of course, the numbers could be different for a pizza with few or no toppings.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: scott123 on August 20, 2011, 10:44:11 PM
Peter, I may be wrong about this, but it looks like the toppings are for one batch of dough, as the list starts off with one single portion of 18 oz. dough.

Btw, have you noticed how the recipe tells you to divide it into two 18 oz. doughs? There isn't 36 oz. in the recipe  :)

Here's an image of the pre-2011 Pendleton Power Flour design
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on August 21, 2011, 10:41:40 AM
scott123,

The cursive "Pendleton" that is shown in the photo of the flour bag is the same as in my old copy of the Pendleton Technical Bulletin even though the overall text on the bags is different in my booklet. BTW, I notice in the photo that you showed that the ingredients for the Power flour are listed. I see Enzyme but I cannot tell if there is any barley malt added (I can't read the rest of the line after Niacin).

You are correct about the FoodNetwork recipe. What threw me off was the amount of pizza sauce, 14 ounces. And I should have known that 6.5 ounces of mozzarella cheese would be too little for an 18" pizza. According to the Burke portion guide reproduced at Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14822.msg147190.html#msg147190, middle-of-the-road quantities for an 18" pizza would be 8.25 ounces of pizza sauce and 12 ounces of cheese. I could see the full 13 ounces being used.

You are also correct about the weight of the dough made from the FoodNetwork recipe. My best estimate knowing how most people measure out flour and water is a total dough weight of a bit over 30 ounces. However, I suspect that when people who practice the FoodNetwork recipe see how wet the dough is, they just add more flour. You will note that the recipe is attributed to Luigi but there is a disclaimer at the bottom of the page as to the results achievable using the recipe.

On the matter of the type of fermentation used at Luigi Pizzeria, I noted at one point in the video right after the dough balls were being formed, Guy says something like "You let 'em proof a little bit more, then you start to make pies out of them". Luigi's reply is "Correct." He did not say, "No, we put them in the cooler first, etc." It is hard to say whether Luigi's response was absolutely intended to suggest only room temperature fermentation, or possibly some cold fermentation also to keep the dough balls from overfermenting as the day wears on.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: PizzaEater101 on August 21, 2011, 02:11:28 PM
I love the detective work that Scott and Peter have done.  You two should be on the show Food Detectives.  You two are the Simon & Simon or the James Rockford and Thomas Magnum of food detective work.  Great work Scott and Peter!

One thing I wanted to say is, maybe if I go back to San Diego and go to the pizzeria I can watch them but I tend to think that the dough is made in the back room so I don't know if I'll see them put the ingredients in the mixer and see if they refridge it or they put it out to rise.  Then again, NYN8IVE, goes there on a regular basis since he lives there so he's more likely to get there than I do so maybe he can watch them, or maybe he can just plain out ask them what they do.  They might answer him with what they do for the process.


Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on August 21, 2011, 03:38:03 PM
PizzaEater101,

Thank you. I was laughing to myself this morning when I considered how much time scott123 and I devoted to trying to decipher the Pendleton mystery. I had heard of Pendleton before, including the Power flour (see, for example, http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2139.msg18797.html#msg18797 and http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4562.msg38398.html#msg38398), but it wasn't until scott123's eagle eye spotted the "Pe" in the video and mentioned Pendleton that the bell went off and brought Pendleton back to mind. Knowing your recent interest in different kinds of water and how they affect a dough, maybe scott123 can tell us what kind/brand of bottled water Luigi is using, as shown in the video.

I also recall that that in the past many of our members were able to buy Pendleton flours, including the Power flour, in Smart & Final (http://www.smartandfinal.com/Homepage.aspx) and Cash & Carry stores (http://www.smartfoodservice.com/) throughout the western states. I don't know if this is still true but according to the Smart & Final store locator, there are three of their stores in San Diego. There are no Cash & Carry stores in San Diego. Smart & Final is known as a warehouse source for chefs and other culinary professionals (see http://www.smartandfinal.com/AboutUs/AboutUs.aspx and http://www.smartandfinal.com/Business/4Business.aspx) so if Smart & Final carries the Pendleton flours I suppose it isn't out of the realm of possibility that Luigi buys his Pendleton flours from their stores. It may even be that the Pendleton flour bags for Smart & Final stores are different than what Pendleton uses for other accounts.

Since your citation of the Pizzeria Luigi You Tube video had morphed into a reverse engineering/cloning exercise, if it is OK with you I would like to move the thread to the New York board.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: scott123 on August 21, 2011, 05:03:19 PM
Thanks, James.  This is second nature for Peter, but it's not often that I pick up a 'scent' that I'm compelled to track down. Thank you, for bringing this fascinating pizzeria to our attention.

For anyone that's interested, the water is Crystal Geyser:

http://www.crystalgeyserasw.com/faqs.html

and, based on the part of the country they're in, should be coming from their Olancha Peak, CA source.

http://crystalgeyserasw.com/docs/Bottled_Water_Report_Olancha.pdf

The total hardness is 55-67 mg/L

This document here:

www.clc.mnscu.edu/kscott/chem1425/wqlabs/Test14TotalHardness.pdf

lists that as somewhere in between soft and hard, while they put New York's Hudson River as 84, so the hardness might be a bit off compared to NY tap (which, although not the Hudson River ;) is probably close).

That said, he's probably not shooting for hard NY water, but is most likely avoiding chlorinated tap water. That's why I've used bottled water in the past. Lately, I've taken to boiling the chlorine out of my hard NY area tap water.  I can't really say that the results are better- it's more of a superstitious, "just in case NY water does make a difference, it wouldn't hurt to use it" kind of mentality.

I did notice that the crystal geyser water has a pH of 5.6 to 6.5. 5.6 is pretty low for water.  That kind of acidity has got to change things up a bit.  13.5% protein + 15 minutes mixing + overnight fermentation is tough city.  Even without the overnight fermentation, I'm still thinking 13.5% + 15 minutes might have the propensity for a tough-ish crust.  With slightly acidic water, I can only see that getting worse.  It doesn't look like the people eating the pizza are gnawing at it or having a hard time, but I'd be interested in the texture of this pizza once it completely cools.

And, Peter, fwiw, I'm not really interested in reverse engineering this pizza.  If my research helps someone else towards that goal, that's great, but my interest is more theoretical than practical- such as understanding what unbromated Pendleton Power is capable of producing.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: PizzaEater101 on August 21, 2011, 09:38:51 PM
Peter, please do move this to the NY Pizza board.  I'd love to see the progress on a reverse engineering project of this great pizza.

Scott123, I did not know that Crystal Geyser is from California.  There are so many waters in a bottle now it's hard to keep track.  So let's say this is a hybrid of NY and CA pizza! Then again most people do think that water is not a big factor in pizza but for the sake of it I'll just think of this as a NY and CA hybrid since it's NY style with NY water.  Okay, okay, it's still NY pizza not really a hybrid. 




Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: scott123 on August 22, 2011, 12:28:58 AM
James, I brought up the NY water thing because, in the video, Luigi talks about how different water in different parts of Italy affects the pizza. At least I think that's what he says.  I'm pretty much one of those people who doesn't really believe in the importance of where the water comes from. I guess I do feel that harder water is a bit better than soft, but hard water is very common across the U.S.

This is about as NY Style as you can possibly get. I do things a little differently (such as a paler, softer crust) not because they're more authentically NY, but because it's what I prefer. Throughout the last 20 years, some NY places have done pale, soft crusts, while some do golden, brown and a bit crispy. Both have a place within the style.  Assuming he's doing a room temp ferment (which I think he is), this is actually a little more authentically NY than my pizza is, as I cold ferment, which is a bit outside the norm for NY pizzerias.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: PizzaEater101 on August 22, 2011, 02:06:55 AM
Scott, if I understand you, typically NY pizzerias use a room temp ferment, not a cold ferment?  I've never been to NYC so I of course never been to any pizza places there, therefore I don't know first hand what they use, cold or room temp.  I use a cold ferment.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on August 22, 2011, 05:07:31 PM
scott123,

Would you say that the bag of flour used in the video to make the dough is a 25-lb bag or something close to it but not 50 lb? I think the bag is between the table and the mixer at 1:16 in the video. Twenty-five pounds of flour and 65% hydration, plus the lesser amounts of ingredients used to make the dough (yeast, sugar and salt), would yield a dough batch weighing around 41-42 pounds by my estimation, or enough for roughly 38 pizzas.

Also, please take a look at the things that go on and off of that little table to the left of the mixer from about 0:52-1:34. In total, I see three dark colored bowls, one with ADY (at about 0:59-1:00 in the video) and two others with white ingredients in them. From the sequencing of the ingredients into the mixer bowl, starting with the water, yeast and sugar, can you tell me whether you think that the sugar is not in one of the bowls but that the two bowls both contain salt? In other words, the sugar is from someplace else not shown in the video?

Also, if the amount of ADY shown in the little bowl in the video is correct, then there can't be a lot of it. I mean maybe less than 0.20% (based on 25 pounds of flour). Pizzeria Luigi's hours are roughly from 10:30AM to 10:30PM, or a period of about 12 hours. With a small amount of yeast, the dough makers would have to get into work pretty early in the morning to give the dough enough time to ferment at room temperature to be usable at 10:30AM. That leads me to wonder whether the dough (most likely several batches) is actually made the evening before and fermented overnight, either at room temperature if the amount of ADY is really small or under cold fermentation if the amount of ADY is actually more than I estimate. Of course, some dough might also be made the next day if needed.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Jet_deck on August 23, 2011, 12:06:29 AM
Peter, while you were watching the little bowls on the table....
I was watching the auto refill on the flour. They start with one bag and end up with a whole bunch. (just above the floor to the right of the oven.)  Also clean dough boxes are above the sink, but there is a huge stack next to the oven.  Maybe they are warming up? or maybe they are enjoying a super warm room temp. proof.?

Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on August 23, 2011, 06:49:23 AM
I donít know if these pictures taken from my computer will help or not, but I do think the flour bags are less than 50 lbs.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on August 23, 2011, 06:51:41 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on August 23, 2011, 08:12:05 AM
Peter, while you were watching the little bowls on the table....
I was watching the auto refill on the flour. They start with one bag and end up with a whole bunch. (just above the floor to the right of the oven.)  Also clean dough boxes are above the sink, but there is a huge stack next to the oven.  Maybe they are warming up? or maybe they are enjoying a super warm room temp. proof.?

Gene,

There may be some merit to what you say. I had noted the dough boxes starting at 0:27 in the video and noted that there were what appeared to be 13 of them stacked next to the stove (which I believe is an old Blodgett 1000 deck oven but without the name plates) but I didn't connect the dough boxes with the oven from the standpoint of the heat from the oven help raise the dough balls. This reminds me of when I visited DiFara's years ago and I asked Domenic how he warmed up the dough balls. He proceeded to bend down and to pull out a draw below the oven where dough balls were warming up pending use. I also noted in the Pizzeria Luigi video that the dough boxes are missing from next to the oven at 1:51 and then can clearly be seen again next to the oven at 2:26 in the video. However, that chronology may not mean much. If you look at the clock readings on the wall as the video progresses, they are not chronological. I see 10:25AM at 2:11 in the video, 12:20PM at 3:12, 12:10PM at 3:51 and 10.47AM at 4:14. I read somewhere that Guy spent a good part of the day at Pizzeria Luigi when the filming was done and no doubt there were many takes and much editing to produce the final episode for FoodNetwork. BTW, that episode was first shown on DDD on Nov. 17, 2008. It was later that the episode made its way to You Tube.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on August 23, 2011, 08:20:22 AM
Norma,

On the matter of the flour bag size, I believe that the mixer that Luigi uses is a 60-quart Hobart series 600 mixer. I think it would be a struggle to use a 50-pound bag of flour in that mixer since that would mean over 80 pounds of dough. I might also mention that Pendleton sells many of its flours, including the Power flour, in 32 pound bags. That size would work with the 60-quart Hobart also.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: scott123 on August 23, 2011, 08:58:07 PM
Scott, if I understand you, typically NY pizzerias use a room temp ferment, not a cold ferment?  I've never been to NYC so I of course never been to any pizza places there, therefore I don't know first hand what they use, cold or room temp.  I use a cold ferment.

James, with the number of pizzas most NY pizzerias sell, the refrigerator/walk-in space necessary for cold fermentation becomes logistically difficult. In addition, from what I gather, the public's perception of the benefits of cold fermentation is really only a recent thing- maybe in the last 20 years.   I'm sure that a few bakers in France have been doing some form of extended/cold fermentation for centuries and that knowledge may have filtered to bakers in Italy, but as far as Italian American immigrants were concerned, I don't think many of them were privy to this advanced breadmaking skill.  Pizzeria owners are not cut from the same cloth as bakers.  Bakers generally have more training and more education and can grasp the concepts of why extended fermentation produces a better bread.  Although Dom Demarco/DiFaras have evolved into a Disnified hyper-caricature in recent years, the non high school graduate, barely English speaking pizzeria owner archetype holds some weight historically.  Dom Demarco doesn't understand cold fermentation, and, with the money he's making, he doesn't need to.  I'm sure, at some point, some pizzeria owner heard about cold fermentation (or maybe put some leftover dough in the fridge and liked the result), so I have no doubt that someone in the area is cold fermenting, but I'm sure it's not the norm.  You might find some places, that, because of workflow constraints, might make the dough the night before, and, because of the extended room temp fermentation, put out a better product, but if I had to guess as to how many pizzerias cold ferment, I'd be really surprised if it was more than 10%.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: scott123 on August 23, 2011, 09:10:11 PM
scott123,

Would you say that the bag of flour used in the video to make the dough is a 25-lb bag or something close to it but not 50 lb? I think the bag is between the table and the mixer at 1:16 in the video. Twenty-five pounds of flour and 65% hydration, plus the lesser amounts of ingredients used to make the dough (yeast, sugar and salt), would yield a dough batch weighing around 41-42 pounds by my estimation, or enough for roughly 38 pizzas.

Also, please take a look at the things that go on and off of that little table to the left of the mixer from about 0:52-1:34. In total, I see three dark colored bowls, one with ADY (at about 0:59-1:00 in the video) and two others with white ingredients in them. From the sequencing of the ingredients into the mixer bowl, starting with the water, yeast and sugar, can you tell me whether you think that the sugar is not in one of the bowls but that the two bowls both contain salt? In other words, the sugar is from someplace else not shown in the video?

Also, if the amount of ADY shown in the little bowl in the video is correct, then there can't be a lot of it. I mean maybe less than 0.20% (based on 25 pounds of flour). Pizzeria Luigi's hours are roughly from 10:30AM to 10:30PM, or a period of about 12 hours. With a small amount of yeast, the dough makers would have to get into work pretty early in the morning to give the dough enough time to ferment at room temperature to be usable at 10:30AM. That leads me to wonder whether the dough (most likely several batches) is actually made the evening before and fermented overnight, either at room temperature if the amount of ADY is really small or under cold fermentation if the amount of ADY is actually more than I estimate. Of course, some dough might also be made the next day if needed.

Peter

Peter, I applaud your inquisitiveness, but I'm not sure answers exist for all your questions  ;D I defer to Gene's observations regarding the flour, and, as far as the bowls go, I watched the video a few times and can't make heads to tails out of it.   I think the bowl we see is salt, but can't say for certain.

If someone really is earnest in reverse engineering this, I think the only path towards that end is eyes on the ground. A bake time would be invaluable for revealing residual sugar content and, to a point, fermentation time.  This is one of those places where the mixer happens to be in the view of the public (I think), so if someone could watch them make the dough, that would help.  They also probably sell dough, so, under the guise of purchasing dough, one might be able to tease out of them when the dough is made and how long it's fermented in order to match their results at home "I love your pizza and want to try to make it for my friends... I see this dough ball you're selling me is cold, is the dough you use for pizza refrigerated as well?"

Or something to that effect  ;D
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: PizzaEater101 on August 24, 2011, 12:01:28 PM
Scott, what you say makes a lot of sense.  Conventional wisdom and logic of most people is that you make dough and you let it sit out at room temperature to rise.  That was my thinking too until a few years ago.  I only started getting into pizza making a few years ago.  I had before that made pizzas every once in awhile.  Maybe once every few years or so but I was watching Alton Brown on pizza making and he was talking about cold ferment and I thought that was a big revelation to me because I never heard of it.  I thought like many that you place the dough out to rise at room temp.  Well then over a year ago I started reading these discussions here at the PMF and registered and started asking questions.  I learned about baker's percentages here too.  When I first started to really get into pizza making, I did use Alton Brown's pizza recipe then I started to adjust his recipe and experimented with different measurements of ingredients.  I did then learn here of the baker's percentage which makes great sense and went on from there to experiment with the percentages. 

Back to warm rise.  I know Jackie Tran, who is really Chau, told me that he has done both cold and warm and gets good results from both.  I'm thinking of trying a warm room temp rise to see how it goes.  There are plenty of discussions here on room temp rises, therefore, I must go and read them and give it a try.   So I see your point Scott that many pizza operators are not really bread bakers but pizza makers only and bread baking is more involved and a lot more knowledge and education goes into it than pizza, which means the common pizza maker might no know about cold fermentation just as I didn't until a few years ago.    Also as you said cold storage space might be lacking so maybe room temp rises might be more practical.   Also, I'm sure if the toppings are good and the sauce and the dough is decent, even if a warm rise is used, then the pizza eating public might not notice, or won't be so discriminating.   

I might try a warm rise soon enough and see what happens.


Thanks
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: chickenparm on August 24, 2011, 04:25:21 PM
James,

I have done warm risen doughs and they work just fine.I notice the crust sometimes lack a little flavor compared to my longer,cold risen dough,but as you said,most of the public will never notice.Only you or I
will.

 :)

Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on August 25, 2011, 12:32:47 PM
One of the things that has puzzled me a lot recently about the Luigi video is the amount of yeast used by Luigi to make his dough, especially in relation to the type of fermentation used by Luigi as discussed, but not in great detail, in the video. Initially, I came to the conclusion that the amount of yeast was very small. I came to that conclusion from the video at 1:00, where a small amount of yeast, maybe a tablespoon, is shown in a small bowl. The notion of using a small amount of yeast in a commercial pizza operation did not initially seem to make a lot of sense to me, but based on Gene's suggestion that keeping the dough near the oven might be material, I felt that I could make out a case for a long room temperature fermentation of many hours if the dough balls were held in a warm place. I had done this on several occasions in my home environment and while that approach might not be a common one, I could see the potential for such a method to work in a commercial environment.

In order to explore the possibility of the Luigi dough balls being warmed by the heat outside of the oven, I PMd a couple of our members who work professionally with deck ovens and asked what a typical temperature would be outside of the oven to the side. In the course of one such exchange, I was told that my estimate of the amount of yeast was far off, based on what the video shows at 1:09 where the yeast is actually added to the mixer bowl. I could see that there was more than about a tablespoon of yeast, but I couldn't tell at that point why my estimate was off. This prompted me to go back to 1:00 in the video to see if there was anything there to explain why my estimate was off, and by so much. It was then that it hit me that there is a second small bowl on the table near the mixer, in front of the bowl of yeast that I had originally studied. However, the second bowl is partially obscured by what appears to be the water container. I had initially seen the second bowl but thought that it was one of the bowls that held the salt. I now believe that the obscured bowl also contains yeast--maybe almost enough to fill that bowl. That would raise the total amount of yeast from the two yeast bowls to a level that would allow the dough to be fermented at room temperature for a reasonably short period before using, much like an emergency dough but perhaps with a somewhat longer fermentation period. That notion also seems to square with the exchange that Guy had with Luigi as to when the dough balls could be used to make pizzas (for the exchange, see the last paragraph of Reply 16 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg150322.html#msg150322). I estimate that maybe 0.70-0.80% ADY might be a good starting point.

Although I think that Luigi does use room temperature fermentation, I think that I can also make out a case of cold fermentation using the larger amount of yeast but being limited to perhaps one day of cold fermentation. Such a dough might even be better than one fermented for only a few hours at room temperature. It would be easy enough for someone to try both approaches to see which might be the one used by Luigi and also to determine whether one method is materially better than the other. I might also add that I estimated the amount of salt used in Luigi's dough, based on a flour weight of 25 pounds (400 ounces), to be around 1.50-1.60%. To come up with this number, I assumed two small bowls of salt, as previously discussed, and I used a bowl with a similar size and shape to the bowls shown in the video to do some salt weighings. As previously noted, both scott123 and I felt that the hydration of Luigi's dough, using the Pendleton Power flour, to be around 65%. For the sugar, which Luigi says he adds to help get the yeast going, I would use something like 0.15% to start. For a thickness factor, I would use 18/(3.14159 x 9 x 9) = 0.0707 if one is interested in making a different size pizza than the 18" pizzas made by Luigi.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on August 25, 2011, 06:18:39 PM
Peter,

In regards to Pendleton's Power flour, their website stated that it is designed for long fermentation/retardation periods.

http://www.pfmills.com/power-flour-products-1.php

Now, that stands in contrast with my local pizza guy around the corner from our business, who uses the same flour but for same day doughs.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on August 25, 2011, 07:37:31 PM
Mike,

It is quite common for pizza operators to use a particular flour to make both long, cold fermented doughs and short term, room temperature doughs to be used the same day. Sometimes the same-day dough is an emergency type dough to be used in the event something happens to the regular dough, including running out of the regular dough. The same dough formulation is used except that the water will usually be warmer and more yeast is used for the emergency dough. I have also often observed that there can be disconnects between what the miller states as suggested end uses for their flours and how they are actually used by bakers and pizza operators.

Your link to the Power flour also raises an unrelated point that I previously missed. Specifically, the bleached version of the Power flour comes only in a 30-pound bag. There is no way of knowing from the Luigi video whether he is using the bleached or unbleached version. If he is using the bleached version, then the dough batch might have a weight of close to 50 pounds (assuming a hydration value of 65%). For a 25-pound bag of the Power flour, the corresponding dough batch weight is about 42 pounds, and for a 32-pound bag of the Power flour, the corresponding dough batch size is about 53 pounds. I believe that Luigi is using a Hobart mixer with a 60-quart bowl. Tom Lehmann recommends that one not use more than 40 pounds of flour with a 60-quart bowl. That amount can yield a dough batch weight of around 60 pounds. Looking at the Luigi video, for example, at 1:56, it is hard for me to say how much dough is actually in the bowl, but whatever amount of flour was used pretty much filled up the bowl (with a couple inches to spare) when it was plopped on top of the water and other ingredients in the bowl (see 1:43 in the video). Whatever the final weight, clearly Guy wasn't going to stand idly by and let a little guy like Luigi hoist the bowl up onto the table all by himself so he helped Luigi carry the bowl to the table.

For someone wishing to attempt a replication of Luigi's dough, I think I would use the same baker's percents as previously recited. Not knowing the exact size bags of the Power flour Luigi is using may require some tweaking of baker's percents down the line but such changes would be normal and are likely to vary in any event from one setting to another.

For those who are interested, a while back one of our members started a thread on the Pendleton flours at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13830.msg138874.html#msg138874. Another member reported that he preferred the Pendleton Pizza Blend to the Power high gluten flour for the NY style.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on August 25, 2011, 07:56:08 PM
Peter,

That makes sense. I gotta ask my pizza guy when he makes his doughs, in the evening with an overnight fermentation or in the mornings but if I remember correctly he said once that he makes it in the morning.

Anyway, I just had a crazy idea, well maybe it isn't really that nuts but I know the mixer in the video is visible in some frames. Now, if we'd know the make and model, probably a Hobart, we could perhaps figure out the size of the bowl. That would give us a much better idea on the hydration given the amount of water that's being poured into the bowl in relation to the flour.

Just thinking out loud here...
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on August 25, 2011, 08:21:26 PM
Mike,

I spent a lot of time trying to nail down the specific mixer that Luigi is using. I think that it is a Hobart 600 series planetary mixer but that series is no longer sold new by Hobart to the best of my knowledge. But there are a ton of used 600 series mixers out there, at eBay and sold by various companies that specialize in used mixers, and they come in all kinds of configurations. I also looked for mixer bowls and dimensions but I did not find that information. If I had to guess, I would say that the mixer bowl that is shown in the video was perhaps brand new--nice and shiny without a scratch on it. That would come across more impressively in the video than using an old beat up bowl.

Unfortunately, I am not much good at estimating things beyond a single dough ball level.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on August 25, 2011, 08:36:51 PM
Mike,

This is a Hobart P660 mixer with a 60-quart bowl that looks close. The link is at http://www.basequipment.com/Used-Hobart-P660-60-qt-Pizza-Dough-Mixer-w-Bowl-p/4543.htm. Another such mixer with the same colors as Luigi uses, but without the bowl, can be seen at eBay at http://www.ebay.com/itm/Used-Hobart-P660-60-Qt-Pizza-Dough-Mixer-/360371073309?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item53e7ca311d.

Peter
 
 
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on August 25, 2011, 08:40:13 PM
Peter,

I also looked at the Food Network's Luigi's recipe but it's in imperial measurements which really doesn't tell me much in terms of hydration.

Also, the scene where Luigi and Guy talk water you can see he uses only two of the large bottles because the white caps are missing. We sometimes buy those bottles for our store here and they hold a gallon each. So two gallons would come to 7.57 liters/kilograms or 7570 grams.

Let's assume he uses the 25 lb bag of flour that would be 11340 grams, rounded up, and would result in a hydration of 66.75%, or rounded up, 67%.

If, that is, my calculations were correct and Luigi actually does use the 25lb bag.



Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on August 25, 2011, 08:45:55 PM
Peter,

That looks awfully close to the one in the video. Good stuff. At least we now have a number (60qt) to go by if my calculations in my previous post are right.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on August 25, 2011, 09:09:16 PM
Mike,

I originally calculated a weight of water based on a 25-pound bag of Power flour and a hydration of 65% and got 16.25 pounds of water. A gallon of water weighs 8.345 pounds. So, in gallons, it is 1.95 gallons, or 2 gallons rounded off. I couldn't clearly make out the second photo with the caps missing but if you are correct then your numbers look to be close and would suggest the use of a 25-pound bag of flour. Remember, also, that a 25-pound bag of flour doesn't weigh exactly 25 pounds. It can be off a quarter pound either side.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on August 25, 2011, 09:19:19 PM
There are a lot of  mixer bowls for 60 qt. mixers on ebay. http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l2736&_nkw=bowls+for+hobart+mixers  This is one bowl that states the size. http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-60-QT-STAINLESS-STEEL-MIXING-BOWL-HOBART-MIXER-/200629595861?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2eb674aed5#ht_2174wt_905

When I went to buy my dough press, I saw at that pizza business that the owner had a 80 qt. mixer, so I think Peter is right that the mixer is a 60 qt. mixer.  I would think the dough in the mixer and on the table would at least weigh 42 lbs. or more.

If someone doesnít have access to the Power flour, or other flour Luigiís might be using, what would be the next best kind of flour to try. 

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on August 25, 2011, 10:28:14 PM
Norma,

Thank you for the links on the mixer bowls. I gave up my search too soon.

Unless Pendleton has changed the Power flour from what scott123 posted at Reply 15 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg150285.html#msg150285, (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg150285.html#msg150285,) that flour includes Vitamin C, an enzyme (most likely for increased amylase activity), the standard B-Vitamin package and reduced iron. There is no potassium bromate, so the Vitamin C may be a substitute for the potassium bromate. The protein content of the Power flour is 13.5%, the ash content is 0.57 and the rated absorption value is 65%. I am not aware of a flour that has the same profile. It may exist but I just don't know of it. It might be a flour sold in California by someone like Giusto's or other company that sells unbromated high gluten flours.

The closest General Mills flour I could find is the Remarkable flour, as indicated at http://www.gmiflour.com/gmflour/Flour_SpecSheet/REMARKABLE%20BL%20BR%20ENR%20MT.pdf (http://www.gmiflour.com/gmflour/Flour_SpecSheet/REMARKABLE%20BL%20BR%20ENR%20MT.pdf). That flour has a protein content of 13.6% and an ash content of 0.56. GM does not give the rated absorption values of its flours but I suspect that the number for the Remarkable flour is around 62-63%. I am sure that GM will provide the actual number if you inquire. As is the case with most of the GM flours in the high protein range, the Remarkable flour is bromated.

An unbromated All Trumps flour (http://www.gmiflour.com/gmflour/Flour_SpecSheet/ALL%20TRUMPS%20ENR%20MT.pdf (http://www.gmiflour.com/gmflour/Flour_SpecSheet/ALL%20TRUMPS%20ENR%20MT.pdf)) or the King Arthur Sir Lancelot flour (http://www.kingarthurflour.com/professional/specifications-conventional-bakery-flour.html (http://www.kingarthurflour.com/professional/specifications-conventional-bakery-flour.html)) might also work even though they are both around 14.2% protein. The ash values for those two flours are 0.56 and 0.52, respectively. You could perhaps lower the protein values of those flours by a mix of either flour with say, all-purpose flour, to lower the total protein content of the blend to 13.5%. One can use the Mixed Mass Conversion Calculator at http://foodsim.toastguard.com/ (http://foodsim.toastguard.com/) to do the requisite math. You can also add a little bit of Vitamin C if you wish.

Peter

EDIT (4/15/14): For a current link to the unbromated All Trumps flour, see http://professionalbakingsolutions.com/product/all-trumps-enriched-high-gluten-unbleached-unbromated-flour/50143000 (http://professionalbakingsolutions.com/product/all-trumps-enriched-high-gluten-unbleached-unbromated-flour/50143000); for a current link for the Remarkable flour, see EDIT (4/15/14): For the current Remarkable link, see http://www.professionalbakingsolutions.com/product/remarkable-flour-bleached-bromated-enriched-malted-50-lb/57122000 (http://www.professionalbakingsolutions.com/product/remarkable-flour-bleached-bromated-enriched-malted-50-lb/57122000)
EDIT (9/26/14): For the Wayback Machine version of the KA spec sheet, see http://web.archive.org/web/20110315190834/http://www.kingarthurflour.com/professional/specifications-conventional-bakery-flour.html (http://web.archive.org/web/20110315190834/http://www.kingarthurflour.com/professional/specifications-conventional-bakery-flour.html)

Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on August 25, 2011, 10:49:52 PM
Peter,

Thanks for the advise on what flours or flour blends to try.  I will wait until another member tries the amount of ingredients you recommended should be tried, and see what kind of results they get, before I give Luigiís dough an attempt. 

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on August 26, 2011, 12:39:03 AM
Mike,

I originally calculated a weight of water based on a 25-pound bag of Power flour and a hydration of 65% and got 16.25 pounds of water. A gallon of water weighs 8.345 pounds. So, in gallons, it is 1.95 gallons, or 2 gallons rounded off. I couldn't clearly make out the second photo with the caps missing but if you are correct then your numbers look to be close and would suggest the use of a 25-pound bag of flour. Remember, also, that a 25-pound bag of flour doesn't weigh exactly 25 pounds. It can be off a quarter pound either side.

Peter

Peter,

Sorry for the delay. Just got home from dinner with friends.

What I did was I converted one gallon into liters. And since a liter has the same weight as a kilogram, it was easy to go from there.

Anyway, I didn't think of the weight difference regarding the flour. But I do think that a 68% hydration for a NY-style pie is a bit much, especially when Luigi's spins it doughs and the dough doesn't really look that high in hydration in the video. But then again, Reinhardt has a recipe for NY-style with a high hydration value.

I'm might be wrong but I think the hydration could be somewhere around 60%-62% suggesting he might use a flour of greater weight than 25lbs for a batch.

Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Jet_deck on August 26, 2011, 12:48:37 AM
Peter,

..... I'm might be wrong but I think the hydration could be somewhere around 60%-62% suggesting he might use a flour of greater weight than 25lbs for a batch.



I "agree" just looking at the bags.  It looks to me to be greater than 25#.  Peter what made you look away from the 32# bag you had found available before?
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on August 26, 2011, 08:27:03 AM
These articles were probably studied by Peter before, but I just thought I would post them, incase anyone is interested.

On urban spoon on the pictures, it shows a picture of the dough trays that sit in the middle of the room. http://www.urbanspoon.com/u/photo_list/313964?photo_id=46416

At this radio interview, Luigi said that Guy was at his pizzeria for 7 hrs. to film the segment

http://pizzerialuigi.com/luigis110309.mp3

This is another picture with Guy and the dough trays stacked up.

http://www.insiderpages.com/businesses/3711421125/images/342347?type=BusinessImage

In this picture on Facebook, I wonder why the stove is next to the oven, when it wasnít there before in the video.

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=251089783123&set=pu.250989848123&type=1&theater

Facebook page for Luigiís, if it can be viewed. http://www.facebook.com/pages/Pizzeria-Luigi/250989848123?sk=wall

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on August 26, 2011, 11:23:53 AM
Mike and Gene,

To answer your questions, I will begin by saying that my premise all along with the Luigi video is that what he is doing in the video is authentic and that the ingredient quantities are correct and that he isn't saying one thing on camera and doing something else off camera. I also realize that when doing a shoot, things are quite likely done that are different than what is normally done. For example, in looking at some of the links that Norma posted, it looks like they cleaned up Luigi's place for the shoot. So, things might have been moved around to make the place look more presentable. In the process, that might have led some of us to wrong conclusions.

The above said, when it comes to hydration values, I usually tend to err on the low side rather than the high side. For example, you will not often see me recommend that someone use a hydration value of 65% or some other value greater than the rated absorption value of a given flour, even for a high gluten flour. However, in the case of the Power flour, it has a rated absorption value of 65%. Most millers do not state the rated absorption values for their flours voluntarily but I am aware of the rated absorption values of many high gluten flours and they are almost always less than 65%. For example, for the All Trumps and KASL flours, the rated absorption values are 63%. And that is for flours that have protein contents of 14.2%, which is quite a bit higher than the 13.5% protein content of the Power flour. I cannot recall any other high gluten flour offhand that has a rated absorption value of 65%. To this, I will add that, according to the article at http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/allyoucaneat/2009921993_pizza_flour_what_to_use_depend.html, "Power is a strong, Montana-grown, commercial-grade, hard durum wheat flour."  I can't say for sure, but I suppose that that might help explain the higher rated absorption value.

In arriving at the 65% hydration figure for the Power flour as used by Luigi, I also relied on observing the texture and consistency of the finished dough as shown in the video. To me, those factors suggest a hydration of around 65%. I believe that scott123 came to essentially the same conclusion as I did from the analysis of the specs for the Power flour and the video. I might also add that the "operational hydration" of a given flour, which relates to how bakers actually use the flour, can be a few percent higher than the rated absorption value. So, an "operational hydration" of 67% for a flour with a rated absorption value of 65% does not strike me as being excessive. In arriving at the 65% figure, I also reviewed the Jet's video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lxLBp4-8dE. From what I understand, the dough shown in the Jet's video has a hydration of around 65%. Although the flour used by Jet's is likely to be a different flour than used by Luigi, the texture and consistency of the finished dough looks quite similar to Luigi's dough. The dough making part of the Jets video starts at about 2:39. Note the dough handling characteristics at around 3:00 in the video.

As a further observation, I will say that I believe that what Luigi is doing with his NY style dough strikes me as being quite authentic, and particularly so if he uses room temperature fermentation. In this vein, I recall that Evelyne Slomon once reported on the forum (in the NY board) that the protein content of the old NY style doughs had lower values than are now used in most places that specialize in the NY style (e.g., flours like All Trumps) and that the hydration value was around 65%--and that was for flours that were used long before high gluten flours started to be used and when flours were not as good as they are today. She also mentioned a salt baker's percent of 1.0% (which I found to be too low for my palate). I even played around with Evelyne's ideas at Reply 56 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg39803.html#msg39803. As can be seen from that post, I did not have problems with extensibility at 65% hydration and that was with all-purpose flour in one case. However, I did use a special dough making method to make the dough so that it had qualities comparable to what I believed matched commercial planetary mixers.

I admittedly took a long and winding road to get from point A to point B, with a lot of pit stops along the way to analyze flour specs, apply logic and past experience, apply intuition, and draw in some history, but that is how I arrived at a hydration value of 65%. I will admit that it takes some skill to be able to form 18" skins in a commercial setting at a hydration of around 65%. However, member Terry Deane used to do it routinely in his pizza shop. Also, I believe that the 15 minute knead time that Luigi uses may help develop a strong gluten matrix for his doughs and improve the elasticity/extensibility characteristics.

If it sounded that I was fixated on the 25-pound bag size, I did not mean that to be the case. But if Mike is right that two bottles of water are used to make the dough, with each bottle being a gallon, then the amount of flour that would be used to get to a hydration value of 65% would seem to suggest a 25-pound bag more than a 30-pound bag. Of course, I could be wrong. And my logic at arriving to the conclusions stated above could be wrong or flawed in one or more respects.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: PizzaEater101 on August 26, 2011, 11:28:36 AM
Norma, thanks for those links.  I had no idea that Guy was there so long to film such a short segment.  I suppose it takes a long time in TV Land to get things done correctly.  Or maybe Guy was so hungry he stayed to eat pizza all day!  I think that might be the case because after that in the next episode it looks like he put on a few pounds.  LOL, J/K.   :pizza:

In all seriousness, thanks for posting those links.  I wasn't aware of how long he took.  I did not listen to that radio interview or click on those links but I am going to now.  Nice detective work Norma. 

Edited my response - I just saw the photos and listened to the interview.  It was great.  Seems like this is Guy's fave pizza on the west coast.  Thanks much Norma.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on August 26, 2011, 11:53:44 AM
Norma,

Thanks for the links. In a couple of the photos showing the oven, the name plates are affixed. I can't make out the name clearly but I believe the oven is a Blodgett oven.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on August 26, 2011, 12:02:36 PM
Peter,

I can understand your logic with Luigiís dough,  probably is right since you said Jetís dough is probably about 65% hydration.  When I just made an attempt at a Jetís pizza, at Reply 90 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8247.msg150725.html#msg150725
I used a hydration of 63.111%, and use the Superlative flour.  I donít think the Superlative flour has an absorption rate of the hydration I used, and I also just used my Kitchen Aid mixer to mix the attempted Jetís dough, but the dough did feel fine. Although I didnít stretch that dough ball into a pizza, I think I could have stretched the dough ball.  I also used ADY, sugar, and salt only in that dough, and the dough seemed fine.  Luigiís uses his Hobart mixer to mix his dough, so I also know a Hobart mixer can mix a dough a lot better than my Kitchen Aid mixer.  

I find you whole analysis interesting, and how you came to the conclusion what Luigi is doing to make his doughs.  I will be anxious for a member to try out your ideas, to see what kind of results are achieved.  

I will see if I can print out the one web page, where he name is on the oven.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on August 26, 2011, 12:06:29 PM
Norma, thanks for those links.  I had no idea that Guy was there so long to film such a short segment.  I suppose it takes a long time in TV Land to get things done correctly.  Or maybe Guy was so hungry he stayed to eat pizza all day!  I think that might be the case because after that in the next episode it looks like he put on a few pounds.  LOL, J/K.   :pizza:

In all seriousness, thanks for posting those links.  I wasn't aware of how long he took.  I did not listen to that radio interview or click on those links but I am going to now.  Nice detective work Norma. 

Edited my response - I just saw the photos and listened to the interview.  It was great.  Seems like this is Guy's fave pizza on the west coast.  Thanks much Norma.


James,

Your are welcome any time.  I find when Peter or another member is trying to reverse-engineer dough or pizzas interesting.  I sure can't do it, but I like the process.

I was also surprised at how long Guy was at Luigi's to be able do the segment.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on August 26, 2011, 12:25:16 PM
Peter,

What you said makes complete sense.

Regarding the two water bottles I mentioned, I watched the scene of that particular segment in slo-mo a few times but the pic I was able to get out of it was a bit blurry. However, Luigi used the two bottles in the front of the four. I added some arrows (red for used, green for unused) to make it a bit clearer.

The reason I had doubts about the 68% or even the 65% value was because of the spinning of the dough. I have made high hydration doughs before and they're not really that easy to handle but perhaps that's just me. Another thing that struck me in terms of the hydration was that whenever I have used a higher value the individual dough balls were somewhat flat and not as puffy and domed like you see in the pic below. But then again, I'm not a pro pizza maker and maybe it's the amount of yeast and short room-temp fermentation that keeps them fluffed up.



Norma,

Thanks for posting those links.

I think the photo with the stove next to the oven is from his other location. Check out the gallery:

http://pizzerialuigi.com/gallery.html
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on August 26, 2011, 12:31:19 PM
Peter or anyone that is interested.  I printed the web page out and really canít tell the name of the oven, but it does look like a Blodgett oven to me.  Maybe it is a double stacked Blodgett like this one on Google images.  http://images.google.com/imgres?q=old+blodgett+deck+ovens&hl=EN&biw=1426&bih=905&gbv=2&tbm=isch&tbnid=3mnu66lRnxAHwM:&imgrefurl=http://desiregoji.com/pizzaequipment/blodgett-deck-pizza-ovens-1060/&docid=CKB5nhUUcPcV3M&w=1280&h=960&ei=jMdXTpXbK6Xb0QHYhPjRDA&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=821&vpy=607&dur=346&hovh=143&hovw=192&tx=155&ty=89&page=3&tbnh=134&tbnw=180&start=73&ndsp=38&ved=1t:429,r:11,s:73

Or this Blodgett pictured here, which I think is also double stacked.

http://images.google.com/imgres?q=old+blodgett+deck+ovens&hl=EN&biw=1426&bih=905&gbv=2&tbm=isch&tbnid=-fOR3s5vbvPJsM:&imgrefurl=http://www.blogcatalog.com/blogs/discount-pizza-restaurant-equipment-specialists-used-refurbished-pizza-ovens-bakers-pride-blodgett-marcal-lincoln-middleby-marshall-zesto-impinger-conveyor-deck-brick-pizza-ovens&docid=npTFaUDLhkucfM&w=300&h=225&ei=jMdXTpXbK6Xb0QHYhPjRDA&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=511&vpy=252&dur=1611&hovh=180&hovw=240&tx=117&ty=87&page=4&tbnh=136&tbnw=193&start=111&ndsp=36&ved=1t:429,r:16,s:111

This is the picture I scanned and printed, but it really canít be seen what the tags are, at least by my scanning, printing, and then copying to file.  Maybe someone else that has more experience with copying web pages can do a better job.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on August 26, 2011, 12:38:49 PM


I think the photo with the stove next to the oven is from his other location. Check out the gallery:

http://pizzerialuigi.com/gallery.html


Mike,

I didn't know there was another location.  Thanks for the link.  The picture of the dough balls are really interesting.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on August 26, 2011, 12:45:31 PM
Norma & Peter,

It is a Blodgett. This pic was taken from the gallery where they filmed the video...

Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on August 26, 2011, 01:02:57 PM
Norma & Peter,

It is a Blodgett. This pic was taken from the gallery where they filmed the video...



Mike,

Great find!  ;D

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on August 26, 2011, 01:08:17 PM
Another thing that struck me in terms of the hydration was that whenever I have used a higher value the individual dough balls were somewhat flat and not as puffy and domed like you see in the pic below.

Mike,

I provided this link earlier, but are these flat enough for you: http://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/ieatOFaTeDqXEV01_GT5_Q?select=NoF5rhJu-yyOQ7AiJ4RjBw  :-D?

Also, I forgot to mention earlier that when I looked at the first two photos that Gene posted at Reply 24 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg150528.html#msg150528, the bag of flour shown there looks to be smaller than the ones in the last photo. Or do my eyes deceive me?

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on August 26, 2011, 01:28:07 PM
Mike and Norma,

When I researched the oven matter earlier, I thought that the one shown in the Luigi video was something like the Blodgett 1000, as shown, for example, at http://desiregoji.com/pizzaequipment/blodgett-1000-pizza-deck-ovens-used/. The photo that Mike provided looks to be a different Blodgett model, perhaps the one used at the other Pizzeria Luigi location. Or possibly there was an oven replacement somewhere along the way.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on August 26, 2011, 01:40:44 PM
Peter,

I didnít even think about how the ovens changed. I donít think it matters if Luigi did change ovens, or if the Blodgett ovens are different at each place. I would think Blodgett ovens all bake about the same way.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on August 26, 2011, 01:53:47 PM
Mike,

I provided this link earlier, but are these flat enough for you: http://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/ieatOFaTeDqXEV01_GT5_Q?select=NoF5rhJu-yyOQ7AiJ4RjBw  :-D?

Peter

Peter,

Now that's funny!  ;D

I didn't even see that you posted the link before.

Regarding the link you provided to the Blodgett 1000, when I first saw the video I thought to myself that it is a pretty narrow oven and how he can turn out a lot of pies during busy times in his pizzeria. It does seem that they must have replaced the oven somewhere along the way because in both location the ovens look different, wider and larger.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on August 26, 2011, 02:27:53 PM
It really looks like they changed up the ovens...

Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Jet_deck on August 26, 2011, 04:35:22 PM
Do we think it is bleached or unbleached ?  Or does it actually effect the outcome of the dough?
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on August 26, 2011, 05:10:52 PM
Now I can imagine why they switched to a bigger oven...read the reviews here on Citysearch San Diego:

http://sandiego.citysearch.com/profile/42645959/san_diego_ca/pizzeria_luigi.html#profileTab-reviews

That pizza must be the bomb! It might be well worth to put in the effort to dissect all the info available and try to reverse-engineer this dough. Even though we have perhaps only the video and recipe on Food Network's website to go by it shouldn't be impossible.

Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on August 26, 2011, 05:32:12 PM
Do we think it is bleached or unbleached ?  Or does it actually effect the outcome of the dough?

Gene,

Luigi's dough does seem to be on the "white" side but I do not see anything in the video to tell us one way or the other whether the flour is bleached or not. If the flour is bleached, then we would know that the bag size is 30 pounds.

If Luigi were to be true to tradition for the NY style, he would use bleached flour since, according to what I read at Reply 298 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1258.msg37081/topicseen.html#msg37081, the flour that was used by the NYC pizza operators at the turn of the 20th century was bleached flour. These days, there are many pizza operators who specialize in the NY style that use high gluten flour that is both bleached and bromated.

If, for purposes of discussion, we assume that Luigi is using a bleached Power flour (in a 30-pound bag) and two gallons of water, then the hydration would be about 55.6%. I don't think that a dough at that hydration would handle as shown in the Luigi video. One fairly simple way to address the hydration issue if one has the Power flour to play around with, either bleached or unbleached, is to come up with a basic starting dough formulation based on a hydration of 65%. A part of the water can be held back while the rest is put into the mixer bowl. Then gradually add the formula flour to the bowl and mix/knead the dough until it achieves the consistency and handling characteristics as shown in the Luigi video, adding back some of the reserved water if necessary to achieve that condition. If there is any leftover water, knowing that amount can be used to calculate the actual hydration. 

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on August 26, 2011, 06:00:46 PM
Peter,

I still have a hard time wrapping my head around a 65% or higher hydration.

Maybe it's silly but when I looked at the video closely, once again during my lunch break, I noticed that there's absolutely no dough sticking to fingers - something I encounter with higher hydrations almost regularly - during the dough handling (dividing & balling) beginning at 2:02 mins of the video. I'm thinking that he might not have used all of the two gallons, maybe a bit less? It's not really clear from the video or the pic I've posted previously.

I'm also wondering if Luigi adds oil to his dough or not. If he does, it would result in an even more saturated dough, unless I'm wrong on this one.

Another thing that caught my eye was at 3:57 mins, Guy Fieri holds up a Mona Lisa slice, showing the bottom of the crust which is nicely browned with almost a few charred spots to it. However, the crust seemed to crack right down the middle. Personally, I have only encountered that with lower hydration doughs in the 60% range but it could be the oven. But at a temp range of 525įF to 550įF that would mean a longer bake time. Then again, commercial ovens run hotter than my run-of-the-mill home oven so I might be wrong on this one.

On another note, regarding the bromated flours, he would have to have a sign in the shop that states that he's using a bromated version but I haven't seen one in all the pics I've seen online.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on August 26, 2011, 06:18:22 PM
Mike,

I can't categorically say that your position is wrong and, in fact, it mirrors my usual position on high hydration doughs, but unless you are using the Power flour in a commercial mixer with a fairly long knead time, you can't really conclude that the dough will not be capable of being handled without sticking. Many of our members have demonstrated great skill in making and kneading high hydration doughs by hand, usually with many stretch and folds, to achieve a finished dough that is not sticky. I would imagine that a commercial mixer with a fairly long knead time should be able to do the same.

As for the crack in the slice that Guy is holding in the video, remember that the thickness factor is only 0.0707. That, coupled with a bake at 525-550 degrees F, might be responsible for the cracker-like texture, even at a high hydration. I might add that in reading yelp and other reviews of Luigi's pizza, I read of several complaints that the crust was too cracker-like. I also read of complaints that pizzas were often overbaked.

I went through the dough making part of the video frame by frame and I saw no evidence whatsoever of oil being used in or on the dough. I wondered about the latter since some of the dough balls in the photos looked a bit glossy. I even wondered whether the glossiness was due to moisture condensation as might be observed for dough balls that are cold fermented.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on August 26, 2011, 06:31:00 PM
Peter,

I think he said he mixes the dough for 15 mins. And yes, you can tell me if/when I'm wrong.  ;D Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing with you at all, I'm just trying to come to terms with the hydration part.

Regarding the oil, he might coat/brush them prior to fermentation. Have you converted the Mona LIsa recipe on the Food Network site, by any chance?

http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/pizzeria-luigi--mona-lisa-pizza-recipe/index.html
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on August 26, 2011, 06:42:09 PM
Have you converted the Mona LIsa recipe on the Food Network site, by any chance?

Mike,

I casually studied the recipe but when I concluded that the recipe calls for all-purpose flour, two packets of ADY yeast, and an amount of water that yields a hydration of around 80%, I concluded that the recipe was not what Luigi uses in his pizzeria. Also, the total dough weight was around 30 ounces, which would not be enough to make two 18-ounce dough balls. Both scott123 and I discussed the recipe earlier in the thread starting at Reply 12 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg150261.html#msg150261.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on August 26, 2011, 07:33:20 PM
Mike,

I casually studied the recipe but when I concluded that the recipe calls for all-purpose flour, two packets of ADY yeast, and an amount of water that yields a hydration of around 80%, I concluded that the recipe was not what Luigi uses in his pizzeria. Also, the total dough weight was around 30 ounces, which would not be enough to make two 18-ounce dough balls. Both scott123 and I discussed the recipe earlier in the thread starting at Reply 12 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg150261.html#msg150261.

Peter

Peter,

Did a quick conversion and got similar numbers for the FN recipe:

438 gr, AP flour  100%
355gr. Water       81%
14gr. ADY               3%
pinch of salt

I don't think that's what he uses, either. I'm wondering why FN would post that kind of recipe with his name on it.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: scott123 on August 26, 2011, 08:02:30 PM
I even wondered whether the glossiness was due to moisture condensation as might be observed for dough balls that are cold fermented.

This is what I conjectured earlier. Every time I watch the video, I getting a stronger feeling that it is, indeed, condensation. Although I don't have a great deal of experience with room temp ferments, I really don't ever recall there being condensation, if any. Perhaps proofing at close proximity to the oven is a way for them to quickly take the chill off of refrigerated dough.

As far as the hydration goes, based on the flour, I had earlier conjectured that the hydration was 'no more than 65%' with a best guess of 64-65, but it could be as low as 62.  No lower than that, though- not with an oil free dough.

I've always worked with 50 lb bags of flour, so I'm not accustomed to recognizing smaller bags, but, from watching this video a few times, I don't think these are 25 lb bags.

Lastly, I think it's important to note that he pours the water into a bucket before he pours it into the mixer.  If he was working with whole gallons of water, he wouldn't be using the bucket. The only purpose the bucket serves is for measuring the water.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on August 26, 2011, 08:28:47 PM
This is what I conjectured earlier. Every time I watch the video, I getting a stronger feeling that it is, indeed, condensation. Although I don't have a great deal of experience with room temp ferments, I really don't ever recall there being condensation, if any. Perhaps proofing at close proximity to the oven is a way for them to quickly take the chill off of refrigerated dough.

As far as the hydration goes, based on the flour, I had earlier conjectured that the hydration was 'no more than 65%' with a best guess of 64-65, but it could be as low as 62.  No lower than that, though- not with an oil free dough.

I've always worked with 50 lb bags of flour, so I'm not accustomed to recognizing smaller bags, but, from watching this video a few times, I don't think these are 25 lb bags.

Lastly, I think it's important to note that he pours the water into a bucket before he pours it into the mixer.  If he was working with whole gallons of water, he wouldn't be using the bucket. The only purpose the bucket serves is for measuring the water.


Interesting piece, Scotty.

I think what we also have to keep in mind that the video was a segment made for TV.

His daily operations might be totally different and if you're convinced that it's actually condensation that would point towards a cold ferment, perhaps overnight? Another thing , if he'd really use a room temp rise, would be that the dough, especially next to the oven and the stacked dough boxes not being air-tight, would develop a skin unless he brushes them slightly with oil. But I haven't seen a skin, whether in the video nor in most of the pics.

Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on August 26, 2011, 09:30:26 PM
This is a review of Pizzeria Luigi, San Diego by, Erin Jackson on Slice. Erin said Luigiís hand-tossed crust is thin and much chewier than most, with a golden brown bottom cover in tiny blisters.

http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2011/06/draft-daily-slice-pizzeria-luigi-san-diego.html#continued


In this article, part way down, http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2009/aug/12/save-your-dough/ Lugi Agostini, talks about dough, and says he favors a thin-crust, New York-style pie and uses no oil in his preparation, which accounts for its crispier crust.  
 Agostini said he finds that leaving the dough covered in the refrigerator with a damp cloth, not only makes it easier to work with, but more importantly, it keeps the dough from over-rising and losing its elasticity.  He also says in part of the article that he changes his recipe three times a year based on the weather.  I guess he was talking about his pizzerias dough. There is more in the article, but a recipe for home dough is at the end of the article.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on August 26, 2011, 10:16:10 PM
This blog says that Luigi Agostini learned the pizza business working at Bronx Pizza.

http://sandiegopizzapie.blogspot.com/2011/01/close-but-no-cigar-pizzeria-luigi.html

I donít know if that is true or not.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on August 27, 2011, 12:05:30 AM
This is a review of Pizzeria Luigi, San Diego by, Erin Jackson on Slice. Erin said Luigiís hand-tossed crust is thin and much chewier than most, with a golden brown bottom cover in tiny blisters.

http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2011/06/draft-daily-slice-pizzeria-luigi-san-diego.html#continued


In this article, part way down, http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2009/aug/12/save-your-dough/ Lugi Agostini, talks about dough, and says he favors a thin-crust, New York-style pie and uses no oil in his preparation, which accounts for its crispier crust.
  
Agostini said he finds that leaving the dough covered in the refrigerator with a damp cloth, not only makes it easier to work with, but more importantly, it keeps the dough from over-rising and losing its elasticity.  He also says in part of the article that he changes his recipe three times a year based on the weather.  I guess he was talking about his pizzerias dough. There is more in the article, but a recipe for home dough is at the end of the article.

Norma

Norma,

Great links! Thanks for posting them.

They clarified some things such as the hydration value in his recipe for the home pizza maker at roughly 68%. If that's an indication it could mean that the two containers of one gallon of water each shown in the video might actually really be his hydration value and I stand corrected... :)

It also shows that the recipe on the FN site is bogus.

And we now know for certain that he uses a cold fermentation and Scott's suspicion of condensation from a cold ferment has also been validated.

When I came home, I started putting together his sauce. Since one pic of Luigi's gallery showed the Full Red Heavy Puree and Guy mentioned crushed tomatoes in the video, I went and bought a can of 6 in 1's and used the can of Muir Glen Organic Heavy Puree I still had in the pantry. Then I added the following:

1 Tbsp each of Garlic Powder, grated Pecorino Romano, Greek oregano & fresh basil, chopped
1/2 Tbsp of each Sea Salt & black pepper
1 Tsp each of Red pepper flakes & ground fennel

I know, ground fennel isn't in the sauce but it adds a nice touch. I also added 100 grams of water to it. If the sauce is of any indication of how good the crust is, this is a winner. After running it through my blender, it had just the right consistency...not too thin, not too thick. I was able to create little peaks on top of the sauce.

This sauce, if I have everything done correctly and with the right quantities, is a great pizza sauce. It tastes slightly sweet, very fresh of tomatoes with a hint of basil and garlic. No sugar needed.

Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: scott123 on August 27, 2011, 01:00:12 AM
In this article, part way down, http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2009/aug/12/save-your-dough/ Lugi Agostini, talks about dough, and says he favors a thin-crust, New York-style pie and uses no oil in his preparation, which accounts for its crispier crust.  
 Agostini said he finds that leaving the dough covered in the refrigerator with a damp cloth, not only makes it easier to work with, but more importantly, it keeps the dough from over-rising and losing its elasticity.  He also says in part of the article that he changes his recipe three times a year based on the weather.  I guess he was talking about his pizzerias dough. There is more in the article, but a recipe for home dough is at the end of the article.

Nice detective work, Norma.

As much as the errors (pans?) and oven related misinformation in that article are like fingernails on a chalkboard to me, I think it's safe to assume that Luigi cold ferments- at least part of the year.  It also answers my previous questions regarding Luigi's level of fermentation knowledge.  If he's changing his recipe based upon the weather, that does, indeed, reveal a somewhat advanced level of fermentation wisdom.  Maybe.  Perhaps Bronx Pizza had three recipes for the year as well and he's copying them from top to bottom.  I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: scott123 on August 27, 2011, 01:17:17 AM
This blog says that Luigi Agostini learned the pizza business working at Bronx Pizza.

http://sandiegopizzapie.blogspot.com/2011/01/close-but-no-cigar-pizzeria-luigi.html

I donít know if that is true or not.

From the Bronx Pizza website (http://www.bronxpizza.com/menu.htm)

Quote
    * Cash Only! No credit or debit.
    * We don't offer ham, chicken, pineapple, jalapenos or Canadian Bacon as toppings.
    * That's ricotta cheese on the white pies, not feta.
    * We keep our salads, as well as the ranch dressing, at the supermarket down the street.
    * Please don't ask for buffalo wings.
    * No slice orders over the phone.

Love the salad comment. These guys sound a LOT like New Yorkers  ;D

Here's a few interior shots:

http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2010/09/san-diego-bronx-pizza-nyc-style.html

That second shot down- does it look familiar to anyone?  :)

It doesn't look all that much like a cold fermented crust to me, but I could definitely see 1. someone here bringing authentic NY practices to SD and 2. Luigi working there, absorbing everything he could about the way they did their business and using that info to open his own shop. That all seems very plausible.

Luigi might have picked up cold fermentation concepts elsewhere, and, perhaps his previous life in Milan might have influenced him to choose a lower thickness factor. Whatever the source, I think the student might be outdoing the master.

Does anyone know anything about Milanese pizza? Perhaps that could help fill in some pieces of the puzzle.

Again, Norma, nice job finding these articles.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on August 27, 2011, 07:41:07 AM
I did find different articles that said Luigi Agostini did work for Bronx Pizzeria before starting his own pizzerias. One being.

http://thefunfoodie.wordpress.com/2010/12/13/culinary-clash-1-ny-pizza-in-san-diego/


Another blogger comparing Luigiís pizza http://eatdarwineat.blogspot.com/2010/09/09062010-pizzeria-luigi.html  to Bronx pizza http://eatdarwineat.blogspot.com/2010/11/11062010-bronx-pizza.html  and another. http://www.ireallylikefood.com/747708681/pizzeria-luigi-a-taste-of-nyc-in-san-diego/

An article about the cheese they might use for some pizzas at Bronx pizzeria, although I donít know if Luigiís uses the same cheese.  http://www.californiacountry.org/features/article.aspx?arID=446

I donít know how to take this comment at the end of the article, but it says Paulyís Pizza Station downtown is not a Luigiís ex employee, but actually a co-worker of Luigiís when he worked at Bongiornoís.  Bongiornoís pizzas also look very similar.

http://www.foodieview.com/blog/2008/04/25/ny-style-pizza-showdown/

There are many articles on the similarities of Luigiís pizzeria to Bronx pizzeria.  There are also videos of Bronx Pizzeria.  Both Bronx Pizzeria and Luigiís look like they use the same ovens.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GP2Y_Db7mi0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSPKhUruaCo&feature=related

I am still not sure what Luigi does with his dough regarding fermentation, but probably only insiders would really know that information.

Mike, are going to try a Luigiís pizza?  If you are, I am interested in seeing how it turns out.

Scott,

I thought the same thing about the pizzas looking very similar from Luigiís and Bronx pizzerias.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on August 27, 2011, 12:06:37 PM

Mike, are going to try a Luigiís pizza?  If you are, I am interested in seeing how it turns out.

Norma

I'm tempted but am still pondering the yeast, sugar and salt levels. I think I'm going with 65% of water to achieve that crunchy crust in my oven, and no oil. I'm also thinking of making two different batches to compare side by side using the emergency formula I've recently tried out here...

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8093.msg150523.html#msg150523

...and will use a modified formula I posted here...

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8093.msg150645.html#msg150645

The emergency dough I made was actually for my mother that day but one of her comments were that if the outside rim/crust/cornicione and the 'main' crust would be a bit thinner, it would be extremely close to an Avellino pizza. And from what I've seen, Luigi's and Avellino's crusts are not really that far apart.

I'll post my ideas for a Luigi's formula perhaps later today. Gotta think about it a bit. If anyone else has an idea regarding the sugar, salt and yeast levels, please post  :)
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: tdough111 on August 27, 2011, 01:11:44 PM
Hi guys,

I currently saw this thread and about Luigis and wanted to help out. I live about 5 blocks from luigis and just joined this forum. I took a ny pizza tour while in New York and since then have been hooked on making pizza. I go to Luigi's about once a week and can scout somethings to find out more info to reverse engineer this pizza for my home. My only observations is that I believe they do a cold ferment as I have seen them go into their walk-in and bring out dough trays. Also with my limited knowledge of dough making I have a tough time believing the hydration level is 65 %. I could be wrong but when I watch them stretch the dough, it does not seem sticky at all and they don't seem to have much trouble with it. Could be wrong though. If any of you has suggestions for things I should look for then that would greatly help as I am pretty new to making pizza
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on August 27, 2011, 01:56:55 PM
Hi guys,

I currently saw this thread and about Luigis and wanted to help out. I live about 5 blocks from luigis and just joined this forum. I took a ny pizza tour while in New York and since then have been hooked on making pizza. I go to Luigi's about once a week and can scout somethings to find out more info to reverse engineer this pizza for my home. My only observations is that I believe they do a cold ferment as I have seen them go into their walk-in and bring out dough trays. Also with my limited knowledge of dough making I have a tough time believing the hydration level is 65 %. I could be wrong but when I watch them stretch the dough, it does not seem sticky at all and they don't seem to have much trouble with it. Could be wrong though. If any of you has suggestions for things I should look for then that would greatly help as I am pretty new to making pizza


Tdough111,

Thanks for helping out. That's great!

If possible, the next time you go there perhaps you can observe/time how long they bake an individual pie. We already know that the baking temp is between 525įF to 550įF.

Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: scott123 on August 27, 2011, 02:29:59 PM
Travis, as Mike mentioned, a bake time would be invaluable.  If possible, bring a stopwatch with you so you get a fairly precise time.  Also, try, if possible, to get the bake for a plain cheese pizza, but if you have to time a pie with toppings, make note of the toppings.

If you could do that, it would be a huge help.  If you want to go the extra mile, here are some suggestions.

1. Bring a still camera.  Ask their permission if you can take a few photos.  If they say it's okay, take a zoom photo of the:

bags of flour
mixer
walk-in (if possible)
and anything else that catches your eye, like empty/discarded packaging

2. Bring a video camera. Ask their permission.  Film a pizza from the point it goes into the oven to when it comes out. Zoom in on as much of the back of the shop as possible, doing a slow pan to get detail.

3. Buy a dough ball, and, as you're buying the ball, press for fermentation details.

You: Hi, I'd like to buy a dough ball.
Them: Sure thing
You:  When was the dough ball made and how long can I refrigerate it?
Them: (details)
You: What's the best amount of time to refrigerate? Do you refrigerate the dough in the pizzeria? How long? I really love your crust and am trying to match it as close as possible at home.

4. Dumpster Dive

If you can get a chance to see a cheese wrapper, that would help, as would an empty bag of flour.  A camera would be nice, but, be careful.  If someone sees you taking photos of their trash, they might get a little suspicious.  Considering that almost every indicator points to Luigi stealing the recipe from Bronx and using it for his own place, I would expect them to be a little paranoid of another competitor doing the same thing. If you're going to dumpster dive, do it on another day than any inside filming or dough ball questioning.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Jet_deck on August 27, 2011, 02:54:11 PM
When leaving with a couple slices in a to-go container.  Say "I'm wanting to give the leftovers to Aunt Sally.  She is allergic to bleached flour.  Could you look at the flour sacks and tell me if it is bleached or not."  This way if you don't get the money shot of the flour sacks, we at least know something more than we know for sure now.  Look for empty sauce containers too. :D
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Jackie Tran on August 27, 2011, 03:35:57 PM
This is awesome.  You guys need to write a book on "The art of reverse engineering pizza - Secrets of the professional home pizza baker".   ;D

Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on August 27, 2011, 03:58:05 PM
Here's another blog entry with two great pics of Luigi's whole pie, which shows the outer crust up close and a slice pic, which shows the extreme thinness...

http://5-ds.blogspot.com/2008/07/pizzeria-luigi.html
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on August 27, 2011, 04:05:38 PM
Hi guys,

I currently saw this thread and about Luigis and wanted to help out. I live about 5 blocks from luigis and just joined this forum. I took a ny pizza tour while in New York and since then have been hooked on making pizza. I go to Luigi's about once a week and can scout somethings to find out more info to reverse engineer this pizza for my home. My only observations is that I believe they do a cold ferment as I have seen them go into their walk-in and bring out dough trays. Also with my limited knowledge of dough making I have a tough time believing the hydration level is 65 %. I could be wrong but when I watch them stretch the dough, it does not seem sticky at all and they don't seem to have much trouble with it. Could be wrong though. If any of you has suggestions for things I should look for then that would greatly help as I am pretty new to making pizza


tdough111 ,

As Mike and Scott123 posted, I also think it would be awesome if you could observe and take pictures if possible.  ;D It does sound like the dough is a cold fermented or at least part of a cold ferment, if you saw them take dough trays out of the walk-in.  That is a great observation already! 

Thanks for helping on this thread!  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on August 27, 2011, 11:22:07 PM
Looked again at the video...specifically after the dough was balled...and I don't think it's condensation. I think they're brushed with oil, perhaps just for the video shoot but nevertheless...that's oil, not condensation.



Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on August 28, 2011, 12:32:46 AM
Pictures from this blogger, that says these are pictures from photo shoot would be in Guy Fieriís book.  It shows Polly-O Ricotta and Stanilaus Full-Red Extra Heavy Tomato Puree.

http://quietloudobserver.blogspot.com/2009/11/pizzeria-luigi-golden-hill.html
http://edwinreal.posterous.com/pizzeria-luigi-golden-hill
http://quietloudobserver.blogspot.com/2011/03/my-pizza-fix.html
http://quietloudobserver.blogspot.com/2010/01/best-of-san-diego-ny-style-pizza.html
http://quietloudobserver.blogspot.com/2010/07/pizzeria-luigi-north-park.html
http://quietloudobserver.blogspot.com/2010/11/pizzeria-luigi-golden-hill.html
http://quietloudobserver.blogspot.com/2009/11/taleggio-cheese-pizza-story.html
http://quietloudobserver.blogspot.com/2009/12/go-check-it-out.html
http://quietloudobserver.blogspot.com/2009/12/i-went-national-yo.html
http://quietloudobserver.blogspot.com/2010/11/this-is-some-good-stuff.html
http://quietloudobserver.blogspot.com/2011/01/comfort-foodporn.html

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on August 28, 2011, 02:08:06 AM
I made two batches tonight with different hydrations and one with oil in it.  I'll post the formulas once I got the pies out of the oven and see how the crust was...  ::)  

Took some pics of the different doughs.

Luigi 1 is 63% hydration, Luigi 2 is 57% and then both doughs oiled and ready to go into the fridge.

Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on August 28, 2011, 04:40:03 PM
Thought I'd post the two formulas I'll be testing out today now instead of waiting until later. Hopefully they'll come close to what Luigi Agostini produces. I might record a short video of the crunchiness, if there actually is any, of the crust when cutting into it.

Numbers for Luigi #1

Flour (100%):
Water (63%):
IDY (.4%):
Salt (2%):
Sugar (2.5%):
Total (167.9%):
Single Ball:
517.33 g  |  18.25 oz | 1.14 lbs
325.92 g  |  11.5 oz | 0.72 lbs
2.07 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.69 tsp | 0.23 tbsp
10.35 g | 0.36 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.85 tsp | 0.62 tbsp
12.93 g | 0.46 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.24 tsp | 1.08 tbsp
868.6 g | 30.64 oz | 1.91 lbs | TF = N/A
434.3 g | 15.32 oz | 0.96 lbs

Numbers for Luigi #2

Flour (100%):
Water (57%):
IDY (.4%):
Salt (2%):
Oil (2%):
Sugar (3%):
Total (164.4%):
Single Ball:
528.35 g  |  18.64 oz | 1.16 lbs
301.16 g  |  10.62 oz | 0.66 lbs
2.11 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.7 tsp | 0.23 tbsp
10.57 g | 0.37 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.89 tsp | 0.63 tbsp
10.57 g | 0.37 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.35 tsp | 0.78 tbsp
15.85 g | 0.56 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.98 tsp | 1.33 tbsp
868.6 g | 30.64 oz | 1.91 lbs | TF = N/A
434.3 g | 15.32 oz | 0.96 lbs

Both doughs were rested for about 45 mins on the counter directly after coming out of the bowl. No shaping or balling up at that time. Just covered them with a clean damp kitchen towel before dividing them into individual balls. I then brushed them with a little bit of Smart Balance oil, covered them with plastic wrap and into the fridge they went where they are still hanging out.

More later...
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Jet_deck on August 28, 2011, 06:20:23 PM
Looks good Mike.

I called both PL locations in San Diego and both said that they used unbleached, enriched, High Gluten flour.  Both locations said that the dough rests in the cooler about 24 hours. ;D
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on August 28, 2011, 07:43:41 PM
Looks good Mike.

I called both PL locations in San Diego and both said that they used unbleached, enriched, High Gluten flour.  Both locations said that the dough rests in the cooler about 24 hours. ;D

Gene,

Good find!   ;D  All this time we were speculating on whether the flour was unbleached or bleached and if the dough was cold fermented or not.  Just with two phone calls you solved the mystery.   :-D

I am interested in seeing Mike's pies.  :)

I looked at the Pendleton flour technical information, http://www.pfmills.com/filebin/pdf/technical_informational_booklet_v1-opt.pdf
on page 6 the Power flour, and whether unbleached or bleached has a protein of 13.0-14.5% and an absorption rate of 65-66%, like Peter posted before.  I wonder if Luigiís uses the directions on page 11 on how to mix the dough for a thin crust pizza.  There is information on the technical information booklet on page 15 on how to make a straight dough.  On page 8 it tells how to use ADY.  

Norma

Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on August 28, 2011, 08:33:50 PM
I was away out of town this weekend but it looks like there was a lot of activity on this thread.

Gene, if Luigi is cold fermenting his dough, or unless he went to cold fermentation after the video was produced, then it strikes me that doing so contradicts the exchange that he had with Guy as reported in the last paragraph of Reply 16 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg150322.html#msg150322. However, as I noted in the last paragraph of Reply 33 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg150824.html#msg150824, at a time where we were speculating as to what kind of fermentation Luigi was using in the video, it is possible that Luigi's dough does double duty, that it, it can be used to make a same-day room fermented dough (which might confirm what Luigi says in the video) or to make a cold fermented dough of one day's duration. The dough would be exactly the same, with the same amount of yeast. In fact, before I left town this weekend, I was going to propose that someone with the Power flour make two identical dugh balls and ferment one at room temperature and cold ferment the other for one day and compare the results to see which, if either, replicates Luigi's dough.  

With respect to the use of unbleached flour, if Luigi is using the Power flour, then that means that the possible bag sizes are 25, 32 and 50 lb bags. I am ready to say that it is unlikely that the bag size that Luigi is using is 25 pounds. Over the weekend, I did a Google search to find photos of 25-pound bags of flour juxtaposed with something that would put the bag size in perspective. Examples of photos that I found include http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/1508731385/ and http://pbandj27.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/img_2428.jpg. If those photos are indicative and rule out the 25-pound bag size, then that leaves 32-pound and 50-pound bags (http://www.pfmills.com/power-flour-products-1.php). Of these choices, I think I would go with 32 pounds. If this is the size bag that Luigi uses, then that should make the job of calculating the percents for yeast and salt easier, assuming that what the video shows with respect to the yeast and salt is correct.

On the matter of the 65% hydration, I don't think that it follows that a dough with 65% hydration has to be sticky. I refer everyone back to the Jet's video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lxLBp4-8dE and to Reply 48 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg150954.html#msg150954 where I discussed same. The dough in that video has a hydration of about 65%. To my eye at least, the dough does not seem sticky. Moreover, it will be noted that the mixer shown in the Jet's video, for example, at 2:42 in the video, appears to be the bigger brother to the mixer that Luigi uses but with an 80-quart bowl capacity that is capable of accepting up to 50 pounds of flour, which is the standard flour bag size that Jet's uses. As I mentioned before, if one has Power flour on hand, it should be easy to conduct some tests to determine how much water is needed to achieve the dough consistency as shown in the Luigi video. Maybe I can do some research over the next day or so on the Power flour to see if what I have been saying on this score is plausible.

I also agree with scott123 that there is more than two gallons of water used to make the dough shown in the video, for the reasons he mentioned, and especially if the correct bag size is 30 pound or 32 pounds. Otherwise, one would just empty two gallons of water into the mixer right from the bottles themselves.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on August 28, 2011, 11:33:12 PM
Dough Mixing procedure for Luigi clones & first outcome...

Luigi 1 & 2:

Dissolved sugar and yeast in all the water (95įF got both doughs) and let it sit until it started to foam. I combined the salt and flour, then added it to the water and started the mixer on Speed 1 until everything was incorporated, around the 2-minute mark. I set the mixer to Speed 2, the time for 10 mins and let her do its thing.

I did everything the same with Luigi dough #2, except that I added the oil to the water before I added the flour with the salt. I used the same speeds and times for dough #2.

Both dough were then pulled out of the bowl and received a counter rest for 45 mins. I then divided them, balled them up, placed into a slightly oiled box, brushed the tops with oil and covered them with plastic wrap. Then they went into the fridge, bottom rack, for 24hrs.

The first bake was Luigi #1 (63% hydration). I chose the Mona Lisa pie for this.

The pizza was baked at 633įF stone temp for 10 minutes. The crust, coloration-wise, looked almost identical to Luigiís except the rim was a tad puffier then I was shooting for. It had the exact same crunch, floppiness at the end and char on the underside. Overall, I think it was pretty close. Used my neighbor and his GF as guinea pigs and the feedback was extremely encouraging.

Some pics of Luigi #1. Luigi #2 is still to come...
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on August 28, 2011, 11:33:37 PM
And the rest of the pics...

I think I used a bit too much cheese. Gotta go lighter with the next one.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on August 29, 2011, 12:11:18 AM
Looks good Mike.

I called both PL locations in San Diego and both said that they used unbleached, enriched, High Gluten flour.  Both locations said that the dough rests in the cooler about 24 hours. ;D

Gene,

Thanks a bunch for giving them a call and pick the brain! Much appreciated.

I love this reverse engineering stuff. It's always a challenge, shows me where I stand and if I can pull it off. However, I am hoping we're helping PizzaEater101 because we sort of hijacked his thread. It's exciting, though :)

Anyway, thanks a lot for the info, bro.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: PizzaEater101 on August 29, 2011, 12:45:25 AM
Gene,

Thanks a bunch for giving them a call and pick the brain! Much appreciated.

I love this reverse engineering stuff. It's always a challenge, shows me where I stand and if I can pull it off. However, I am hoping we're helping PizzaEater101 because we sort of hijacked his thread. It's exciting, though :)

Anyway, thanks a lot for the info, bro.

Hey there Essen1 , oh no, you all are certainly not high jacking my thread.  I'm enjoying this to the fullest extent.  I first posted this Luigi pizza subject to see what everyone thinks of this place from the Diners video and it blossomed into a reverse engineering project and to tell you the honest truth, well, I'm glad it did.   I'm enjoying reading everyone's post and now you had it come to fruition when you made a Luigi pie.  I'm pretty sure that Luigi himself is amused by this whole thing.  I would not be surprised if some how he stumbled upon this discussion and is reading this and smiling that the reverse engineering project is going on.  The sincerest form of flattery is imitation.  Not saying you are imitating him or his pie, but you guys are doing a fine job of cracking the Luigi code and I'm sure he likes that.  

So to be honest you are actually helping me because I love reading up on the process of cracking a pizza such as you all are who are involved in it.  I'm in awe of everyone who is working on this.  I'd never figure any of this out.  Essen1, you are doing a great job and the pics of your pie really show how well you did on cracking his pie.   :chef: :pizza: :D
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on August 29, 2011, 07:19:39 AM
Mike,

Your first formula and resulting pizza, for your Luigiís clone, looks a lot like a real Luigiís pizza. Glad to hear your neighbor and his girl friend used as guinea pigs gave up feedback that was encouraging. Great job!  ;D

What did you think of the Luigiís clone in comparison to other pizzas you have made? What kind of flours or flours did you use in your formula?   What size pizza did you make, and what TF did you use?  Since your baking temperature was 633 degrees F, do you really think Luigiís bakes his pies at that high of temperature and for that long?

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on August 29, 2011, 08:03:32 AM
James, or anyone else that is interested,

I wanted to add another report for Luigiís pizza, but this was back in 2009, from a blogger.
http://thesandiegopizzainvestigation.blogspot.com/2009/07/our-first-suspect-pizzeria-luigis.html

The same blogger did also report about Bronx pizzeria, if anyone is interested in seeing what the blogger said.
http://thesandiegopizzainvestigation.blogspot.com/2009/08/bronx-pizza-new-york-style-pizza-by.html

Why I am posting what this blogger had to say about the pizzerias, is because the blogger calls the blog "The San Diego Pizza Investigation".  :-D  8)

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on August 29, 2011, 12:46:28 PM
Hey there Essen1 , oh no, you all are certainly not high jacking my thread.  I'm enjoying this to the fullest extent.  I first posted this Luigi pizza subject to see what everyone thinks of this place from the Diners video and it blossomed into a reverse engineering project and to tell you the honest truth, well, I'm glad it did.   I'm enjoying reading everyone's post and now you had it come to fruition when you made a Luigi pie.  I'm pretty sure that Luigi himself is amused by this whole thing.  I would not be surprised if some how he stumbled upon this discussion and is reading this and smiling that the reverse engineering project is going on.  The sincerest form of flattery is imitation.  Not saying you are imitating him or his pie, but you guys are doing a fine job of cracking the Luigi code and I'm sure he likes that.  

So to be honest you are actually helping me because I love reading up on the process of cracking a pizza such as you all are who are involved in it.  I'm in awe of everyone who is working on this.  I'd never figure any of this out.  Essen1, you are doing a great job and the pics of your pie really show how well you did on cracking his pie.   :chef: :pizza: :D

PizzaEater101,

I'm glad you're enjoying our banter here and hopefully we can come up with a respectable clone.  :)


Norma,

I've used the same flour - ConAgra Harvest Bread flour - for both pies, which were 16" in size with a TF of around 0.076.

Two things regarding the baking temp. The Luigi #1, I baked at 633įF because it had less sugar but a higher hydration, the Luigi #2 (pics below) was baked at 600įF for 8 mins because it had a higher sugar amount and lower hydration and I didn't want to burn it. However, the coloration of the outer crust severely lacked compared to Luigi #1. Bummer.

Luigi #2 was also a modified version of an emergency dough I stumbled upon just recently and which I made for my mother, if you recall.

I don't know what the bake times are at Luigi's shop but I doubt that he bakes at 600įF or higher. He said his oven runs between 525įF and 550įF. I chose a higher temp because commercial ovens are so much more powerful then my generic home oven. You have to compensate and make up for it somewhere, I guess.  ::)

What I didn't like about Luigi#2 are three things. Crust lacked in coloration, the outer crust was too soft - too much oil maybe - and the cheese developed that reddish-yellow puddle in the center which I can't stand. Overall I think I'll ditch the Luigi #2 formula since the Luigi#1 seems more promising to experiment with.

Luigi#2 pics...
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on August 29, 2011, 12:47:24 PM
And the rest...

Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: PizzaEater101 on August 29, 2011, 12:50:28 PM
Norma, thank you for the links.  I read the blog on Luigi but not the other one yet but am going to.  

He didn't seem impressed with Luigi.  I was impressed by Luigi, but to each his own.  He said there were no alcoholic beverages there just soda.  I don't drink alcohol but I thought I saw a customer with a beer in hand.  A bottle of beer.  Could be he brought that in from outside and just ordered his pizza there and ate there.   He's right the soda was $1.00.  

He said the sauce was unnoticeable.  I think that is what he was implying.  To me I did notice the sauce.  I really did.  It was very good sauce.

He is right about the cheese.  The ratio of cheese to bread was right on.

I didn't notice any garlic salt there but if he says it's there it is there.  I would not have put any on anyway.  I put a shake or dash of crushed pepper and Parmesan as I normally do.  

Atmosphere.  They did have music but I don't recall much about it.  I was so into my pizza I didn't give the music or the atmosphere much thought.

Overall I liked Luigi pizza but I guess the blogger thought it was so/so.  a 6.5 out of 10 is a fail if you were taking a test in school, well that is unless they do a curve to grade.  To me Luigi was not a 6.5, more like a 9.5 or maybe even a 10.



 
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: chickenparm on August 29, 2011, 02:22:23 PM
Mike,
The orange oil is what makes these slices scream NY-style to me!
 ;D

I love the oil...of course if theres too much I let some drip off,but to me its great stuff!
 8)
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: PizzaEater101 on August 29, 2011, 03:38:14 PM
Essen1, you describe the sauce that you made as follows -

"This sauce, if I have everything done correctly and with the right quantities, is a great pizza sauce. It tastes slightly sweet, very fresh of tomatoes with a hint of basil and garlic. No sugar needed."

You described exactly how I tasted the sauce when I was at Luigi.  You nailed it buddy, you did.   
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on August 29, 2011, 03:49:08 PM
Mike,
The orange oil is what makes these slices scream NY-style to me!
 ;D

I love the oil...of course if theres too much I let some drip off,but to me its great stuff!
 8)

Bill,

I know it adds character to a NY-style pie but I'm not so fond of it visually. It always gives me the impression that something, somewhere went wrong with the cheese. But maybe that's just me ;D


PizzaEater101,

The sauce is outstanding. I think it's one of the best I have tasted in a long time.

However, I noticed yesterday that with each passing day, the acidity increases slightly and the sauce does need a bit of sugar to balance it all out, probably around Day 2 or so. I think the reason why Luigi's doesn't add sugar is simply because he goes through it pretty quickly given the amount of pizzas he makes per day.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on August 29, 2011, 06:02:38 PM

Norma,

I've used the same flour - ConAgra Harvest Bread flour - for both pies, which were 16" in size with a TF of around 0.076.

Two things regarding the baking temp. The Luigi #1, I baked at 633įF because it had less sugar but a higher hydration, the Luigi #2 (pics below) was baked at 600įF for 8 mins because it had a higher sugar amount and lower hydration and I didn't want to burn it. However, the coloration of the outer crust severely lacked compared to Luigi #1. Bummer.

Luigi #2 was also a modified version of an emergency dough I stumbled upon just recently and which I made for my mother, if you recall.

I don't know what the bake times are at Luigi's shop but I doubt that he bakes at 600įF or higher. He said his oven runs between 525įF and 550įF. I chose a higher temp because commercial ovens are so much more powerful then my generic home oven. You have to compensate and make up for it somewhere, I guess.  ::)

What I didn't like about Luigi#2 are three things. Crust lacked in coloration, the outer crust was too soft - too much oil maybe - and the cheese developed that reddish-yellow puddle in the center which I can't stand. Overall I think I'll ditch the Luigi #2 formula since the Luigi#1 seems more promising to experiment with.


Mike,

Thanks for explaining what flour you used, the size of your pies, and the TF you used.  I remember the emergency dough you stumbled upon recently, that you made for your mother.  Interesting about what you thought about Luigiís 2 dough and final pizza you made.  Any amount of differences in formulating dough can make a pizza different, as I know you already know.

I think I will wait until Peter studies Lugiís dough more, and comes up with a formulation before I try a Luigiís dough.  There are still too many mysteries for me surrounding the ingredients, amount of flour, water, amount of ADY, and also if Luigi is cold fermenting or doing a part room temperature ferment and then a cold ferment. 

Maybe tdough111, or James can give Peter and other members some more insight, what really goes on at Luigiís.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on August 29, 2011, 06:09:01 PM

He didn't seem impressed with Luigi.  I was impressed by Luigi, but to each his own.  He said there were no alcoholic beverages there just soda.  I don't drink alcohol but I thought I saw a customer with a beer in hand.  A bottle of beer.  Could be he brought that in from outside and just ordered his pizza there and ate there.   He's right the soda was $1.00.  

He said the sauce was unnoticeable.  I think that is what he was implying.  To me I did notice the sauce.  I really did.  It was very good sauce.

He is right about the cheese.  The ratio of cheese to bread was right on.

I didn't notice any garlic salt there but if he says it's there it is there.  I would not have put any on anyway.  I put a shake or dash of crushed pepper and Parmesan as I normally do.  

Atmosphere.  They did have music but I don't recall much about it.  I was so into my pizza I didn't give the music or the atmosphere much thought.

Overall I liked Luigi pizza but I guess the blogger thought it was so/so.  a 6.5 out of 10 is a fail if you were taking a test in school, well that is unless they do a curve to grade.  To me Luigi was not a 6.5, more like a 9.5 or maybe even a 10.


James,

Those links I posted are just one bloggers opinion.  As I know from the NJ Boardwalk thread, when you look at yelp or other places, each person has their own opinion.  Even pizzas can change from day to day from the same pizzerias.  Maybe you will be able to go to Luigiís again and pick up some more clues.  I would trust you opinions, before what I read on the web.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: chickenparm on August 29, 2011, 07:58:03 PM
Mike,
I keep going back to look at the upskirt shots/bottom crust on them slices.I think they are incredible.You did a great job  on them.The bottom looks exactly like some of the Pizza places I used to eat at,in NY.
 8)
Sometimes I wish I had a deck oven at home to use.I love how the crusts turn out in them.Using a small 15 inch stone at home,for me, is hit and miss sometimes.


 
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on August 29, 2011, 08:27:56 PM
Mike,

I think I will wait until Peter studies Lugiís dough more, and comes up with a formulation before I try a Luigiís dough.  There are still too many mysteries for me surrounding the ingredients, amount of flour, water, amount of ADY, and also if Luigi is cold fermenting or doing a part room temperature ferment and then a cold ferment. 


Norma

Norma,

The formulas I used were mere rough blueprints and need definitely some refining and work. But I agree, for a good clone we need more in-depth info.

Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on August 29, 2011, 09:05:10 PM
Mike,
I keep going back to look at the upskirt shots/bottom crust on them slices.I think they are incredible.You did a great job  on them.The bottom looks exactly like some of the Pizza places I used to eat at,in NY.
 8)
Sometimes I wish I had a deck oven at home to use.I love how the crusts turn out in them.Using a small 15 inch stone at home,for me, is hit and miss sometimes.


Thanks, bro.

I don't have a deck oven, either. Instead I use a 17" kiln shelf I bought a few months back for a cheaper price than a high-quality pizza stone. Works like a charm and puts out some great pies unless I screw up, that is.

The fun of all this reverse engineering is the experimental phases that come with it. But since only a few of us have actually ovens in the realm of what the Pros use, I'm afraid the ones left with just our home ovens will have their work cut out to achieve crusts that rival those of professional pizza joints such as Luigi's or any other place for that matter.

Their oven performs very differently and deliver very different results than what your average home pizza maker (us) can possibly achieve. I'm not saying it's impossible and perhaps one day one member here will have a whole chandelier go off over his head, having an "A-HA!!" moment. Hopefully that member will then share his a-ha moment with the rest of us.

Until that happens, I'll keep looking at the entire journey as finding the Holy Grail of home pizza making!  ;D

Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: tdough111 on August 30, 2011, 11:09:24 PM
Hey guys,

Finally got a chance to make it to Luigis and did a little scouting. It was really busy with people waiting in line for slices and they seemed really busy so I didn't ask to take pictures but I looked around and this is what I saw:

Bags of Power flour that looked to me to be 50 lbs

They had 2 cans of Olive Oil with a spray bottle next to it filled with olive oil

I had trouble timing pizzas because they were really busy but I timed a pepperoni pizza that went for 6min45sec. They put this into the slices display so I'm not sure if they take it out early because they reheat it for slices

 Hope this can help kick start this reengineering project
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on August 30, 2011, 11:54:56 PM
tdough111,

As I mentioned in Reply 58 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg150965/topicseen.html#msg150965, I thought that the bags of flour shown in the flour storage unit at the end of the Luigi video were larger than the single bag shown earlier in the video. However, if the bag of flour used to make the dough in the video was 50 pounds, which would seem to be too much if Luigi is using a Hobart mixer with a 60-quart bowl, then the quantities of ingredients shown on the little table next to the mixer, as I estimated them by weighings in my kitchen using a small container of similar size and shape as the ones shown in the video, would seem to produce baker's percents that are too low for 50 pounds of flour. There is no reason why Luigi can't use flour from a 50-pound bag (maybe he has graduated to a larger Hobart mixer with an 80-quart bowl), but the numbers I come up with seem to fit the 32-pound bag (unbleached) much better than the 50-pound bag. I wouldn't rule out the possibility that the video is an innocent fabrication intended to produce a video that is more for entertainment consumption by ordinary oblivious viewers than pizza cognoscenti. Since the scenes in the video were taken out of sequence (as evidenced by the out of sequence times shown on the clock on the wall), with items on the table next to the mixer and the dough boxes and bags of flour coming and going during the time of the shoot, and the different scenes later being stitched together in the studio, one can reasonably conclude that the depiction of ingredient quantities and procedures in the video are not accurate or correct. The misleading (in my opinion) statement in the video about the method of fermentation and the two dough recipes that were attributable to Luigi but bear no resemblance to what he does in his pizzerias do not inspire confidence. Usually when there is one cockroach, there are others. Hopefully, I am wrong with my assessment and characterization of the matter.

But it is good that you confirmed the use of the Pendleton Power flour. Thanks for helping on that aspect of the exercise. It is far more valuable to have boots on the ground.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on August 31, 2011, 12:47:46 AM
tdough111,

As I mentioned in Reply 58 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg150965/topicseen.html#msg150965, I thought that the bags of flour shown in the flour storage unit at the end of the Luigi video were larger than the single bag shown earlier in the video. However, if the bag of flour used to make the dough in the video was 50 pounds, which would seem to be too much if Luigi is using a Hobart mixer with a 60-quart bowl, then the quantities of ingredients shown on the little table next to the mixer, as I estimated them by weighings in my kitchen using a small container of similar size and shape as the ones shown in the video, would seem to produce baker's percents that are too low for 50 pounds of flour. There is no reason why Luigi can't use flour from a 50-pound bag (maybe he has graduated to a larger Hobart mixer with an 80-quart bowl), but the numbers I come up with seem to fit the 32-pound bag (unbleached) much better than the 50-pound bag. I wouldn't rule out the possibility that the video is an innocent fabrication intended to produce a video that is more for entertainment consumption by ordinary oblivious viewers than pizza cognoscenti. Since the scenes in the video were taken out of sequence (as evidenced by the out of sequence times shown on the clock on the wall), with items on the table next to the mixer and the dough boxes and bags of flour coming and going during the time of the shoot, and the different scenes later being stitched together in the studio, one can reasonably conclude that the depiction of ingredient quantities and procedures in the video are not accurate or correct. The misleading (in my opinion) statement in the video about the method of fermentation and the two dough recipes that were attributable to Luigi but bear no resemblance to what he does in his pizzerias do not inspire confidence. Usually when there is one cockroach, there are others. Hopefully, I am wrong with my assessment and characterization of the matter.

But it is good that you confirmed the use of the Pendleton Power flour. Thanks for helping on that aspect of the exercise. It is far more valuable to have boots on the ground.

Peter

Peter,

I have a few thoughts on this...

1. After the D, D & D's episode aired in 2009 (uploaded to YouTube in Nov. '09 and perhaps shot some time around May or earlier) Luigi's had a line out the door. With that said, he might have upgraded to a larger mixer to accommodate the demand. Check out the reviews on Yelp by date, especially before that show aired

2. I don't think he intentionally tries to mislead people about his fermentation methods. How many people do even know, besides me and you and the rest of this board, what a cold fermentation is? He might have just impulsively answered Fieri's question in a subtle way.

3. If you'd be a pizzeria owner, would you give out your recipe to a show that will be seen by millions of viewers, inadvertently giving away your recipe to other competing pizza shops? I don't think so, hence the place being clean and no cans of tomato products around, no label shots of the cheese he uses, flour, salt, yeast or sugar amounts.

If I had a great formula that generates money and a great-tasting crust, I'd guard it as close and tight as I would guard my own balls during a soccer game, believe me.

4. Remember the Grimaldi's video (Food Wars)? I don't think they were particularly honest and accurate about their recipes, and that goes for both, John's and Grimaldi's.  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozlFnaQ0qPU

That's why I am always wary of TV shows that claim to show the "real deal" like Fieri always does.


TD101,

Thanks a bunch for doing this. It's very much appreciated.

If Pendleton's Power flour was used, I can get my hands on a 50lb bag perhaps this week since my local pizza guy uses it.

regarding the bake time, it could be that they are underbaking their pies to make sure they won't be overbaked when they reheat them by the slice. Gotta make some phone calls to actually find out if that's what shops who sell slices do.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on August 31, 2011, 01:14:23 PM
Mike,

I hear you but with Guy Fieri and his crew on the premises of Luigi's pizzeria for seven hours, there would have been ample opportunity and time for Luigi to correct Guy by telling him that the dough balls are stored for a period of time in their cooler (or refrigerator) before using because that makes the crust and pizza taste better (a good selling feature on its own). He wouldn't have to say exactly when the dough balls went into the cooler or exactly how long the dough balls are held in the cooler. If Luigi wanted to shield his trade secrets, he didn't have to give the dough ball weight or identify the brand of bottled water used to make the dough (he could have used just a regular water container). He could have done many other things to conceal his actual trade secrets and no one would have been the wiser.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Jet_deck on August 31, 2011, 01:22:54 PM
I have talked with Both the Tennessee location and the Idaho location for Milner/Pendleton.  Power flour is not available at the retail level anywhere that they know of.  Except at the Idaho location on fridays in September.  It is cash and carry, no shipping available.  She said it is time for the new crop and they are making room for it by selling stuff at the factory on friday's.  Cisco, in Texas, is a distributor of this flour though.  I know someone, who is supposed to know someone at Cisco.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on August 31, 2011, 02:31:56 PM
Mike,

I hear you but with Guy Fieri and his crew on the premises of Luigi's pizzeria for seven hours, there would have been ample opportunity and time for Luigi to correct Guy by telling him that the dough balls are stored for a period of time in their cooler (or refrigerator) before using because that makes the crust and pizza taste better (a good selling feature on its own). He wouldn't have to say exactly when the dough balls went into the cooler or exactly how long the dough balls are held in the cooler. If Luigi wanted to shield his trade secrets, he didn't have to give the dough ball weight or identify the brand of bottled water used to make the dough (he could have used just a regular water container). He could have done many other things to conceal his actual trade secrets and no one would have been the wiser.

Peter

Peter,

Also true. Who knows what went really on during the shoot. But did I miss the mentioning of the dough ball weight? That info might help...

Either way, I have tried over the last few days to gather a bit more info besides the video but have not found anything substantial. I looked through most of the Yelp reviews to see if someone might have posted a thorough review besides the "Great crust, wonderful sauce.." kind of thing, but nothing. I also looked at several blogs but again...nothing of substance.

Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on August 31, 2011, 03:09:02 PM
But did I miss the mentioning of the dough ball weight? That info might help...

Mike,

Luigi mentions 18 ounces at about 2:05 in the video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PRA_BJYvTc). A lot of places, including the chains, will not tell you their dough ball weights. I tried to get that information once from Papa John's and Papa Gino's and was told that the information was proprietary.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on August 31, 2011, 04:56:46 PM
Mike and Peter,

I just used imaginary numbers for the expanded dough calculation tools, being 0.0707 for a TF for a 18Ē pizza, and using 65 % hydration, with 1.75% salt, ADY at 0.39%, sugar at 1.0 % and the ounces came out to 17.99.  I am not saying that is Luigiís formula, but it shows for a 18Ē pizza, those numbers could work or something like those numbers, if Luigiís dough is 18 ounces.  I would think that the with using that much ADY the dough would have to be partially cold fermented or all cold fermented.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on August 31, 2011, 05:13:15 PM
I just used imaginary numbers for the expanded dough calculation tools, being 0.0707 for a TF for a 18Ē pizza, and using 65 % hydration, with 1.75% salt, ADY at 0.39%, sugar at 1.0 % and the ounces came out to 17.99.  I am not saying that is Luigiís formula, but it shows for a 18Ē pizza, those numbers could work or something like those numbers, if Luigiís dough is 18 ounces.  I would think that the with using that much ADY the dough would have to be partially cold fermented or all cold fermented.

Norma.

Once you enter the thickness factor and the pizza size, the expanded dough calculating tool will calculate a value of 3.14159 x 9 x 9 x 0.0707 = 17.99 no matter what other values you enter into the tool ;D.

I have been waiting for a call back from a technical person at Pendelton to be able to nail down the hydration issue better although I noted that you reported good results using 65% with your Jet's clone dough using a flour with a protein content of only 12.4% (Reply 94 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8247.msg151463.html#msg1514630). I would think that the 65% hydration will work better with the Power flour at 13.5% protein. I ran the parts of the Jet's video and the Luigi video where the dough is formed into dough balls side by side (using my desktop and my iPad simultaneously) and to me the dough condition and handling looked the same.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on August 31, 2011, 05:21:11 PM
Norma.

Once you enter the thickness factor and the pizza size, the expanded dough calculating tool will calculate a value of 3.14159 x 9 x 9 x 0.0707 = 17.99 no matter what other values you enter into the tool ;D.

I have been waiting for a call back from a technical person at Pendelton to be able to nail down the hydration issue better although I noted that you reported good results using 65% with your Jet's clone dough using a flour with a protein content of only 12.4% (Reply 94 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8247.msg151463.html#msg1514630). I would think that the 65% hydration will work better with the Power flour at 13.5% protein. I ran the parts of the Jet's video and the Luigi video where the dough is formed into dough balls side by side (using my desktop and my iPad simultaneously) and to me the dough condition and handling looked the same.

Peter

Peter,

Speaking of Pendelton's Power Flour, I will receive a 50lb bag, unbleached & enriched, from my local pizza guy around the corner along with two 6lb logs of F & A whole milk, low-moisture mozzarella on Saturday. All for about $40.

He deems the PPF one of the best flours in the business/industry and the F & A cheese a close cousin of Grande Mozzarella. He says Grande's the best but F & A's Mozza is a great runner-up.

Looks like I'll be making some pies over the Labor Day weekend.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on August 31, 2011, 05:32:51 PM
Norma.

Once you enter the thickness factor and the pizza size, the expanded dough calculating tool will calculate a value of 3.14159 x 9 x 9 x 0.0707 = 17.99 no matter what other values you enter into the tool ;D.

I have been waiting for a call back from a technical person at Pendelton to be able to nail down the hydration issue better although I noted that you reported good results using 65% with your Jet's clone dough using a flour with a protein content of only 12.4% (Reply 94 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8247.msg151463.html#msg1514630). I would think that the 65% hydration will work better with the Power flour at 13.5% protein. I ran the parts of the Jet's video and the Luigi video where the dough is formed into dough balls side by side (using my desktop and my iPad simultaneously) and to me the dough condition and handling looked the same.

Peter

Peter,

I guess I still don't understand those dough calculating tools, even though I can use them.   :-D  Maybe one of these days I will understand everything, but don't bet on it.

Will be interesting to know what you hear back for the technical person at Pendleton.  The dough did look something like the Jet's dough I made.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on September 01, 2011, 02:06:29 PM
Norma and Mike,

I went through a good part of the Luigi video second by second to reconstruct how the dough is made, up to the point of forming into dough balls. What I looked for was how the items on the stand next to the mixer went into the mixer bowl to make the dough. Those items include the water, the yeast (believed to be ADY) and the salt. Sugar went into the mixer bowl but I did not see a small bowl on the table with the sugar. The flour was in a bag that was positioned between the table and the mixer. Initially, I thought that the mixer was a Hobart P-660 mixer (see http://www.bakeryequipment.com/genUpload/60qt%20Pizza%20Mixer%20p660%20spec%20sheet.pdf) but I discovered today that a Hobart L-800 (see http://www.nnysupply.com/mixers/l800.pdf), which also looks like the Hobart P-660 (but with a lower H.P. rating) is the same height (55 7/8Ē) as the Hobart P-660. One difference is that the L-800 has an 80-quart bowl and the P-660 has a 60-quart bowl. As noted below, judging from the height of the dough in the bowl after kneading, it strikes me that it is quite possible that Luigi was using the L-800. That means that if Luigi now uses 50-pound bags of flour, he might already have the right mixer to handle that amount of flour.

To see how I got to where I am in my thinking, consider the following chronology and sequencing of events:

1:07 There is a partly filled small bowl of yeast (believed to be ADY), maybe a tablespoon or so, and another nearly full small bowl of yeast (obscured by the water container) on the table to the left of the mixer.

1:08 The water from the water container is in the mixer bowl. The yeast is stirred into the water in the mixer bowl. The amount of yeast in the mixer bowl is clearly more than just the small amount of yeast in one of the small bowls, suggesting that both of the small bowls contain the total yeast.

1:14 Sugar is added to the water in the mixer bowl. There is no indication that Luigi took a container (small bowl) of sugar from the table and emptied it into the mixer bowl. It could have come from a source not shown in the video. Luigi simply says that he adds a little sugar to help activate the yeast. It does not sound like Luigi is treating the sugar as a major component of the dough although, of course, it does end up in the dough.

1:17 There are two small bowls of salt on the table. The salt from the two small bowls is emptied into the mixer bowl (note that Luigi holds one empty bowl while the second bowl is on the table).

1:26 A bag of flour (Power flour) with a ripped top is shown between the table and the mixer. At the time of the video, it was not known whether the bag of flour weighed 25 pounds, 30 pounds or 32 pounds (the bag between the table and the mixer does not look to be a 50-pound bag), or whether the flour was bleached or unbleached. At a hydration value of 65% (my best estimate), the amount of dough for each bag size would be about 42 pounds, 50 pounds or 53 pounds, respectively. If the flour is an unbleached flour, that leaves a dough batch weight of 42 pounds or 53 pounds (the 30-pound bag is bleached flour). I recently came to believe that the flour bag was not a 25-pound flour bag. (Reply 93 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg151230.html#msg151230). However, I do not see anything in the video to suggest that the bag of flour used to make the dough is 30 pounds (bleached) or 32 pounds (unbleached). I do not see this as a big issue. If the amounts of water, yeast, salt and sugar shown in the video can be ascertained, one can come up with a dough formulation based on using 30 pounds of flour or 32 pounds of flour.

1:34 The flour is added to the mixer bowl. Apparently the entire contents of the flour bag goes into the mixer bowl since the Pendleton script letters in the red oval printed on the bag can be seen below the ripped part of the bag. That means that, say, a 50-pound bag, was not partially emptied and the top part of the bag torn away.

1:42 The flour bag--presumably empty--is gone.

1:49 The dough in the mixer bowl (42 pounds or 53 pounds) appears to be at a level at about the mid-point of the mixer bowl or maybe a bit above. That level arguably is more commensurate with an 80-quart bowl than a 60-quart bowl. According to the pdf specs given above, the dimensions for a Hobart 60-quart mixer bowl are 16 5/8Ē high with a diameter of 19 3/16Ē. For an 80-quart Hobart mixer bowl, the dimensions are 18 ľĒ high with a diameter of 21 11/16Ē. Maybe someone can venture which size is shown in the video. Clear views of the bowl can be seen starting at 1:48 in the video.

2:06 The prepared dough batch is divided and formed into round dough balls. As previously noted, I believe the hydration of the dough to be around 65%.

Iíd be happy to entertain any thoughts or comments. I have done some weighings of yeast, salt and sugar based on the above analysis, using a container of the same general size and shape of the small bowls shown in the video, and once I am satisfied on the hydration issue with the Pendleton Power flour, Iíd be happy to post some possible dough formulations for interested members to test out with the Power flour. Even if my weighings are accurate or at least close enough for our purposes, that is no guarantee of getting the desired results, especially if the video is not correct or is misleading.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 01, 2011, 03:32:14 PM
Peter,

I just looked at the video again, specifically the bag of flour. Yesterday, at my local pizza joint here, he showed me the 50lb bag of PPF and it looks to be the same size although the font and logo is different.

Also, I noticed that the mixer sits on top of a slab of concrete and is bolted on. Now, since the mixer is a bit elevated and given the camera angle, it might may make the bag of flour look smaller than it actually is.

I might be wrong, given the fact that the printing, logo and font is different on Luigi's bag compared to the one I saw yesterday.

The other pics show the bowls with the salt, yeast and sugar. You can see Luigi holding the bowl what I believe to be the yeast right before it goes into the water. In the other pic you can see him reaching for a second bowl of presumably salt, with two other ones being empty already, most likely the sugar and yeast ones. I think he may not use two bowl of salt. I think they may be one sugar and one salt.

One thing that doesn't sound right is when Luigi talks about the amount of sugar. he says "That's why I add a little sugar..." but when you look at the pic, that amount looks more than just "a little". I guess it's safe to say that his formula does, in fact, include a fair amount of the sweet stuff.

Any thoughts on my theory are most welcome...
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 01, 2011, 03:48:47 PM
Peter,

I forgot to mention that your estimate of 65% hydration is probably spot on. I went through my NY-style project thread and noticed that when I worked with the All Trumps flour (http://www.gmiflour.com/gmflour/flour.aspx?type=ESpring#50111) in February I used a hydration of 66% and the dough was not sticky or too wet at all. It was actually very easy to work with.

Reply 550: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8093.msg125704.html#msg125704

So, if the PPF performs in the same way, albeit not being bromated, the 65% hydration should be correct.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on September 01, 2011, 04:22:07 PM
I finally did hear back from Pendleton on the Power flour. The fellow who called me is in the Pendleton flour mill in Blackfoot, Idaho. We had a nice conversation on the Power flour.

As it turns out, the absorption figure for the Power flour, 65%, is the rated absorption value for the flour, not the "operational hydration" value that I thought it might be, which could be a few percent higher. The 65% figure is rated with respect to a flour moisture content of 14%, which is the legal requirement. When I asked how the Power flour could have such a high rated absorption value with a protein content of only 13.5%, whereas other high gluten, high protein flours like the All Trumps, KASL, Kyrol, etc., had rated absorption values of around 63% with protein contents in excess of 14%, I was told that Pendleton very carefully selects and manages the wheat varieties used to make the Power flour to achieve the desired absorption value and other characteristics and specs for the Power flour. When I asked where the wheat was grown for the Power flour, he said the Power flour was milled from hard red spring wheat grown in Idaho.

When we discussed the absorption value in greater detail, he said that the 65% figure was a legitimate figure as far as actual hydration was concerned. I asked if one were using a standard Hobart planetary mixer with a 60-quart or 80-quart bowl, would one get any stickiness in the finished dough. He said no, not at all. When I asked if one could use a hydration value of say, 67%, he said that it was perhaps possible but that the typical range of hydrations for the Power flour was 64.5-65.5%.

As the photo of the Pendleton Power flour bag that scott123 posted earlier in this thread indicates, the Power flour also contains some Vitamin C and an enzyme. The enzyme is actually fungal amylase.

So, that's the story on the Power flour.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Jet_deck on September 01, 2011, 04:30:55 PM
Regardless of what was in the video, both PL locations say that they use IDY and 50# sacks of flour.  The yeast information was provided as to those who might have an allergy to ADY; you are safe as they don't report using that kind.   ;)
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: PizzaEater101 on September 01, 2011, 04:34:13 PM
Peter, thanks for calling Pendelton and posting your findings from the converstation you had with the rep from the company.

So do you know if Pendelton is a brand of flour that home consumers can buy or is it just for people in the restaurant industry.  If you or anyone mentioned it already, my apologies.  I thought I read this thread pretty good but if I missed that, sorry.  Can one buy this brand in smaller bags?  I take it that this is the best flour for pizzas, I think you mentioned that Peter, or someone did.


Thanks,


James
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 01, 2011, 04:40:04 PM
Peter,

Thanks a bunch for checking in with Pendleton. So 65% it is then. Now I can sleep at night again. ;D


James,

As far as I know, the Power Flour is not available at the retail level.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on September 01, 2011, 04:45:16 PM
Any thoughts on my theory are most welcome...

Mike,

If your characterization of the events is correct, and also that the flour is from a 50-pound bag, then the amounts of ingredients shown in the little bowls would have to be bogus because the baker's percents would be very small. Also, if you look at 1:17 in the video, which is after the sugar has been placed in the mixer bowl, you will still see two small bowls on the table, presumably the salt. I think the small bowl in Luigi's hand at 1:08 may be the small bowl with the very small amount of yeast in it.

My estimates of the amounts of yeast and salt will only work for a flour bag size of 30 or 32 pounds, or 25 pounds if we rule that size back in again. Also, a 50-pound bag of flour with a hydration of 65% will yield a total batch size of around 83 pounds. That would fill up a 60-quart mixer bowl and possibly exceed its recommended limit and also come up fairly high in an 80-quart mixer bowl, neither of which appears to be the case from the video.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on September 01, 2011, 04:50:15 PM
James,

What Mike says about the Pendleton flour is correct. As previously mentioned, some of the Pendleton flours are sold in Smart&Final and Cash&Carry stores, which a lot of chefs and restauranters use for their businesses, but not in small 5- or 10-pound bags, or anything like that.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 01, 2011, 04:59:40 PM
Mike,

If your characterization of the events is correct, and also that the flour is from a 50-pound bag, then the amounts of ingredients shown in the little bowls would have to be bogus because the baker's percents would be very small. Also, if you look at 1:17 in the video, which is after the sugar has been placed in the mixer bowl, you will still see two small bowls on the table, presumably the salt. I think the small bowl in Luigi's hand at 1:08 may be the small bowl with the very small amount of yeast in it.

My estimates of the amounts of yeast and salt will only work for a flour bag size of 30 or 32 pounds, or 25 pounds if we rule that size back in again. Also, a 50-pound bag of flour with a hydration of 65% will yield a total batch size of around 83 pounds. That would fill up a 60-quart mixer bowl and possibly exceed its recommended limit and also come up fairly high in an 80-quart mixer bowl, neither of which appears to be the case from the video.

Peter

Peter,

You're right. At 1:17 there are still two bowls with white stuff on the table. What my concern is about the video in general are the sequences. I hope they didn't move little bits around during editing and altered with the workflow of Luigi's method.

What I'm trying to say is that hopefully they kept the flow of action the same way in the video as it really happened. If that's the case then the ingredients should be added like this: Water, Yeast, Sugar, Salt and Flour.

Regarding the size of the bags, look at the table in the background in this pic JD posted...they look like 50lb bags to me.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on September 01, 2011, 05:11:20 PM
Regarding the size of the bags, look at the table in the background in this pic JD posted...they look like 50lb bags to me.

Mike,

I noticed that too and commented on it earlier but take a look at what seems to be a smaller bag sitting by its lonesome at 0.43 in the video.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 01, 2011, 05:26:43 PM
Peter,

It also looks like they have cleaned up that table during the shoot. But that bag does indeed look like a smaller one. All of a sudden it feels a bit as it was all staged for the video compared to what their normal daily routine is.

Using the 25lb bag as a reference to get a formula going is probably the most logical thing to do, if that's what he used in the video.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on September 01, 2011, 05:32:13 PM
Using the 25lb bag as a reference to get a formula going is probably the most logical thing to do, if that's what he used in the video.

Mike,

We sort of ruled out the 25-pound bag (as earlier reported), which left us with a 30-pound bag or a 32-pound bag. It sounds like Luigi now uses an unbleached flour but there is nothing in the video to tell us what he used to make the dough in the video. The 30-pound bag of Power flour is bleached. The 32-pound bag is not.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: tdough111 on September 01, 2011, 06:15:59 PM
James and Peter

I went to the closest Smart and Final by Luigi's and they do not carry Pendelton flour. I then went to Restuarant Depot and they carried the Pendelton Power Flour but only in 50# bags. I asked them if they could order me 32# bags and they told me they couldn't. Is it possible that Luigi buys 50# bags and reweighs the flour to fit his mixer? Would that explain the ripped bag by the mixer? 
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 01, 2011, 06:19:01 PM
James and Peter

I went to the closest Smart and Final by Luigi's and they do not carry Pendelton flour. I then went to Restuarant Depot and they carried the Pendelton Power Flour but only in 50# bags. I asked them if they could order me 32# bags and they told me they couldn't. Is it possible that Luigi buys 50# bags and reweighs the flour to fit his mixer? Would that explain the ripped bag by the mixer? 


I can ask my pizza guy if they would be able to order the PPF in different sizes. Let's see what he'll say.


Peter,

With which size are you going then?
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: PizzaEater101 on September 01, 2011, 06:23:37 PM
Peter and Mike, thanks for your responses on Pendleton flour.    I sometimes go to Smart & Final near me, I go to one of two stores to shop and I do look at the flour and I never have seen Pendleton but I have seen high gluton flour.  I forgot what brand but they have a high glueton.  Not sure if it has Vitamin C in it or not though.  The bag has the colors of Italy on it so the brand might have an Italian name on it or at least they might imply that it's great for pizza dough.  Not sure though.  I felt like buying a bag but it's much too much for me to store so I have to get Gold Medal - Better For Bread Flour.  They sell those in reasonable sizes for the home consumer market.  I do fine with that flour but I would love some high gluten flour.  I suppose the Better for Bread is higher in gluten than all purpose but not as high, well as high as "high gluten" flour.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 01, 2011, 06:27:24 PM
Peter and Mike, thanks for your responses on Pendleton flour.    I sometimes go to Smart & Final near me, I go to one of two stores to shop and I do look at the flour and I never have seen Pendleton but I have seen high gluton flour.  I forgot what brand but they have a high glueton.  Not sure if it has Vitamin C in it or not though.  The bag has the colors of Italy on it so the brand might have an Italian name on it or at least they might imply that it's great for pizza dough.  Not sure though.  I felt like buying a bag but it's much too much for me to store so I have to get Gold Medal - Better For Bread Flour.  They sell those in reasonable sizes for the home consumer market.  I do fine with that flour but I would love some high gluten flour.  I suppose the Better for Bread is higher in gluten than all purpose but not as high, well as high as "high gluten" flour.

James,

It's probably this one:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9483.msg82058.html#msg82058
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: PizzaEater101 on September 01, 2011, 06:32:48 PM
Mike, exactly that's the one.  I forgot the name but when I clicked on your link I immediately recognized it.  I'd not mind using that flour if it was not in a big bag like that.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on September 01, 2011, 06:37:21 PM
Peter,

With which size are you going then?

Mike,

I am thinking of coming up with examples using 30 pounds of flour and 32 pounds of flour. If our members deem those versions to be credible, or only one of them, then I, or the members themeselves, can use a thickness value of 0.07074 in the expanded dough calculating tool to come up with versions for different pizza sizes, such as 12", 14" and 16", since most people with standard home ovens may not be able to handle the 18" size. Or they may be able to use a combination of screen and pizza stone.

Of course, I invite Norma's comments, or anyone else's for that matter, before proceeding in case either of us missed something.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 01, 2011, 06:58:07 PM
Mike,

I am thinking of coming up with examples using 30 pounds of flour and 32 pounds of flour. If our members deem those versions to be credible, or only one of them, then I, or the members themeselves, can use a thickness value of 0.07074 in the expanded dough calculating tool to come up with versions for different pizza sizes, such as 12", 14" and 16", since most people with standard home ovens may not be able to handle the 18" size. Or they may be able to use a combination of screen and pizza stone.

Of course, I invite Norma's comments, or anyone else's for that matter, before proceeding in case either of us missed something.

Peter


Peter,

Very cool. Anxious to see what you will come up with.

I just got back from talking to my pizza guy. I asked him what size of PPF bags he can get his hands on and he said only the 25 & 50lb bags. He said I could also try the Mondako flour, which comes in 32 & 50  lb bags but is bleached.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on September 01, 2011, 07:21:44 PM
Very cool. Anxious to see what you will come up with.

I just got back from talking to my pizza guy. I asked him what size of PPF bags he can get his hands on and he said only the 25 & 50lb bags. He said I could also try the Mondako flour, which comes in 32 & 50  lb bags but is bleached.

Mike,

While I am at it, I can also come up with a version based on using a 25-pound bag of flour.

I also discussed the Mondako flour with the fellow I spoke with at Pendleton Mills in Idaho. I specifically asked him whether the wheat to make the Mondako flour came from Montana or the Dakotas since the Mondako name was a combination of Mon (for Montana) and Dako (for Dakota). He said that I had the combination right but that they no longer used flours from both of those states. The name was acquired from Fisher Mills, which Pendleton had acquired some time ago. As the Pendleton website notes at http://www.pfmills.com/mondako-flour-products-2.php, the Mondako flour is now a blend of "Northern winter and spring wheat". There is also a Mondako Special flour that is unbleached that seems to have the same specs as the Mondako flour, but it may not be as readily available as the Mondako flour. The Pendleton flours are sold through distributors and foodservice companies.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 01, 2011, 07:41:21 PM
Peter,

My guy also mentioned a Mondako Pizza blend but didn't really elaborate on that one. I guess it's one of those blends where you just have to add water and you're done.

Once I get the 50lbs PPF I'll post some pics if the bag should contain any info not discussed here or that we don't already know about.

Stick with your original plan for the 30 & 32 lb formula. I can scale it down to my needs later on. No need to put in the extra work although I appreciate the offer!
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on September 01, 2011, 07:49:28 PM
Is it possible that Luigi buys 50# bags and reweighs the flour to fit his mixer? Would that explain the ripped bag by the mixer? 

Travis,

I scoured the Luigi video looking for a commercial scale capable of weighing 50-pound bags of flour but did not see any scale like that. If some of the flour from a 50-pound bag had been removed, leaving say, 25-32 pounds of flour, and then had the top of the bag ripped off, then I don't think you would have seen the stylized "Pe" on the flour bag in the red oval as shown in the video at 1:34. To see the logo, I think the flour bag would have had to be 25 pounds, 30 pounds or 32 pounds. As I mentioned earlier, in January of this year, Pendleton came up with a new name and look for the company and products (see http://www.pfmills.com/a-new-pendleton-flour-mills-news-4.php). That is why the current Pendleton flour bags look different than the one shown in the video.

I think what happened at Luigi's is that the DDD FoodNetwork segment on Pizzeria Luigi increased Luigi's business to the point where he perhaps had no choice but to go with 50-pound bags of flour so that he wouldn't have to make as many batches of dough. It would also have made sense to swith to IDY since it is easier to use than ADY. I don't think that such a change was because of allergic reactions. If Luigi didn't have a mixer with an 80-quart bowl capacity, then he had to go with such a mixer to be able to easily and conveniently handle 50-pound bags of flour. For my reverse engineering efforts, I had no choice but to go with the stuff shown in the video. However, that doesn't mean that any workable numbers that I might be able to come up with can't be translated to an application based on 50 pounds of flour. Of course, if Luigi changed other things, then that changes the ballgame and is not something that I can deal with.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on September 01, 2011, 07:55:59 PM
My guy also mentioned a Mondako Pizza blend but didn't really elaborate on that one. I guess it's one of those blends where you just have to add water and you're done.

Mike,

I didn't discuss the pizza flour blends with the fellow at Pendleton's because I wanted to be sure I exhausted everything on the Power flour, which is the focus of our efforts to try to reverse engineer what Luigi did in the video . However, I have long been aware of the Pendleton pizza flour blends because of their great popularity among pizza operators on the west coast. You are correct that they require only the addition of water, as the Pendleton website notes at http://www.pfmills.com/complete-pizza-mixes-pages-5.php.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 01, 2011, 10:21:22 PM
Mike,

I didn't discuss the pizza flour blends with the fellow at Pendleton's because I wanted to be sure I exhausted everything on the Power flour, which is the focus of our efforts to try to reverse engineer what Luigi did in the video . However, I have long been aware of the Pendleton pizza flour blends because of their great popularity among pizza operators on the west coast. You are correct that they require only the addition of water, as the Pendleton website notes at http://www.pfmills.com/complete-pizza-mixes-pages-5.php.

Peter

Peter,

I didn't try to confuse anyone or move the attention away from the Power flour, I just threw the Mondako reference in there because my pizza guy mentioned it.  :)

Anyway, on my way home I thought about those little bowls of salt, sugar and yeast and realized that I have similar bowls of almost the same size. So I went and did a comparison of the bowls, Luigi's and mine. I poured an amount of sea salt in one of them and tried to get as close to the amount shown in Luigi's video. Then I weight the amount an it was 300gr. Since I think my bowls are a tad deeper, my guesstimate is that the amount of salt hovers around 300 - 350gr. (10.6oz - 12.3oz) If Luigi really used two of those bowls of salt, as you suspect, then that would obviously double that amount but I'm can't be sure.

Another thing is the way the video was edited. as I mentioned before, i have my doubt that the workflow is shown as it really happens normally. I think I got proof of that now from the frames I was able to capture with the GOM Player I use. I slowed the video down to almost super slo-mo, the voices were all garbled and both guys sounded like robots from a bad 1950's science fiction flick but I got two frames that actually show that the the video was edited not in the way the real mixing regimen happens, I believe. It's evident when you look at the bowls on that small table and watch the video at normal speed. The bowl behind Fieri's hand is the one that contained the yeast and looks empty, the one in front must have been the one that held the sugar(?) and it's empty but then, all of a sudden, one of them is full again with either sugar or salt.

Curious as to what you think.

Pics below show first the bowl comparison and the other the Off-workflow frames...
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on September 01, 2011, 10:28:46 PM

Of course, I invite Norma's comments, or anyone else's for that matter, before proceeding in case either of us missed something.

Peter


Peter,

I have been trying to follow this thread today, but my mother is having problems, and also I am trying to get ready for the weekend thing at market.  It has been a hectic day.  I find all the posts interesting, as much as I could follow them.

I donít think you or other members missed anything.  I just wonder really what those bags of flour weigh that are under the table beside the oven.  I canít tell by just looking at the table, but know my table that I use to opened my dough balls has 50 lb. bags of flour stored on a shelf something like Luigiís flour is stored.  I donít think it would be any help, but I could measure my table that is at market tomorrow, to see what length my table is that stores my 50 lb. bags of flour.  I would think those bags are 50 lbs., but canít be sure, because I donít know the width of Luigiís oven.  I did measure my mixing bowl at market for my 20 qt. mixer and had planned to see how much flour it could hold, but forgot where I put the measurements, and also forgot to see how much flour my 20 qt. mixer can hold.

Will be interested in seeing what kind of formulas you set-forth.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 01, 2011, 10:35:41 PM
Just did some quick calculations.

Let's say Luigi used the 32lb bag of Power flour that would amount to 14515 grams. If he uses two bowls of salt as Peter suggested, and my guesstimate is somewhat correct regarding the bowl sizes, it would come to perhaps 700 grams maximum and would equate to 4.8% of salt. If he uses, let's say 350 grams of salt, it would equate to 2.4% which seems in line with most formulations I have seen for a NY-style pie.

This reverse-engineering project is exciting!  ;D
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 01, 2011, 10:38:18 PM
Peter,

I have been trying to follow this thread today, but my mother is having problems, and also I am trying to get ready for the weekend thing at market.  It has been a hectic day.  I find all the posts interesting, as much as I could follow them.

I donít think you or other members missed anything.  I just wonder really what those bags of flour weigh that are under the table beside the oven.  I canít tell by just looking at the table, but know my table that I use to opened my dough balls has 50 lb. bags of flour stored on a shelf something like Luigiís flour is stored.  I donít think it would be any help, but I could measure my table that is at market tomorrow, to see what length my table is that stores my 50 lb. bags of flour.  I would think those bags are 50 lbs., but canít be sure, because I donít know the width of Luigiís oven.  I did measure my mixing bowl at market for my 20 qt. mixer and had planned to see how much flour it could hold, but forgot where I put the measurements, and also forgot to see how much flour my 20 qt. mixer can hold.

Will be interested in seeing what kind of formulas you set-forth.

Norma

Norma,

I'll be getting a 50lb bag of flour on Saturday. If you can measure your table, I'll give you the corresponding measurements of the 50lb bag and we'll find out if those are actually 50 lbs bags we're seeing in the video.

Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on September 01, 2011, 11:01:19 PM
Norma,

I'll be getting a 50lb bag of flour on Saturday. If you can measure your table, I'll give you the corresponding measurements of the 50lb bag and we'll find out if those are actually 50 lbs bags we're seeing in the video.



Mike,

I will try to remember to measure my table tomorrow.  I am not sure if my table is the same size as Luigi's table.  His table might be bigger than mine.  I will take a picture of the bottom shelf on my table tomorrow if i remember. 

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 01, 2011, 11:05:38 PM
Mike,

I will try to remember to measure my table tomorrow.  I am not sure if my table is the same size as Luigi's table.  His table might be bigger than mine.  I will take a picture of the bottom shelf on my table tomorrow if i remember. 

Norma

That's great! I don't think a few inches here and there will make a huge difference. It will still be in the same neighborhood.

Repeat after me "Remember to measure the table,...remember to measure the table,...remember to measure the table..."  ;D
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on September 01, 2011, 11:21:13 PM
Mike,

Please look at the bowls on the table and the ones used when making the sauce and tell me whether they are the same size in your opinion. Look at the bowl sizes in relation to the size of Guy's and Luigi's hands, for example.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 01, 2011, 11:36:52 PM
Mike,

Please look at the bowls on the table and the ones used when making the sauce and tell me whether they are the same size in your opinion. Look at the bowl sizes in relation to the size of Guy's and Luigi's hands, for example.

Peter

Peter,

I did.

I'm not that far off.

Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on September 01, 2011, 11:39:42 PM
Mike,

I mean whether all of the bowls used in the video are the same size in your opinion.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 01, 2011, 11:59:07 PM
Mike,

I mean whether all of the bowls used in the video are the same size in your opinion.

Peter

I don't know if they are. However, I think the ones used for the salt and oregano are the same size. Look at Luigi's hands. You'll see it's not a smallish bowl and he holds it with two hands.

I also measured mine: 6" diam. x 1.75" height. The bottom is 3.75" diam. if that matters.



Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on September 02, 2011, 07:31:23 AM
Mike, Peter, or other members that might want to make comments,

When watching the video at around 0.43 and other places in the video at Luigiís, the dough trays are on top of the table where the bags of flour are stored underneath.  I would think the dough trays are 18Ēx26Ē something like these dough trays.  http://www.therestaurantstore.com/fourth2030/products/Pizza-Dough-Pans-and-Pizza-Dough-Boxes.html   If the dough trays are 18Ēx26Ē does that help anyone determine what size the flours bags are, or help to know if the flour bags are 50 lbs.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on September 02, 2011, 08:34:26 AM
When watching the video at around 0.43 and other places in the video at Luigiís, the dough trays are on top of the table where the bags of flour are stored underneath.  I would think the dough trays are 18Ēx26Ē something like these dough trays.  http://www.therestaurantstore.com/fourth2030/products/Pizza-Dough-Pans-and-Pizza-Dough-Boxes.html   If the dough trays are 18Ēx26Ē does that help anyone determine what size the flours bags are, or help to know if the flour bags are 50 lbs.

Norma,

That is good thinking.

I personally think that there is more than one size flour bag shown in the video. For example, if you look at the image at 0:43 in the video as you mentioned, the table seems to abut the oven and the long dimension of the flour bag seems to be about the same as the long diimension of the dough boxes or maybe even a bit less. Also, the flour bag does not seem to have a lot of depth. Now, if you go to the image at 2:28, the flour bags look bigger with a long dimension that appears to be greater than the long dimension of the dough boxes.

In the final analysis, I don't know that it will really matter all that much what the flour bag sizes are. It may mean more work trying to eliminate things by the process of elimination, which may mean people with the Power flour having to do more experiments, but that is the price you have to pay given what the video shows and what we can otherwise learn from our own investigations. What is important is the quantities of ingredients in the various bowls used to make the dough shown in the video. If you have a pretty good idea of those quantities, and they are legitimate and not staged quantities, then you can come up with dough formulations for all four bag sizes, 50 pounds, 32 pounds, 30 pounds and 25 pounds. It would then be those four dough formulations that would have to be tested to find the best one. It would be nice to rule out some of the bag sizes, as by trying to identify the mixer bowl size and the amount of dough in the mixer bowl, and so on, but until then we are stuck with the four options. We can arm wrestle each other over bag size all day long and not get an answer that will satisfy everyone.

I plan this morning to send an email to Pendleton to see if they will tell me the dimensions for the four sizes of flour bags mentioned above. I'm curious to see how much they differ.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on September 02, 2011, 09:27:45 AM
Peter,

I agree with you about the flour size bags looking different in different frames in the video.  I also agree, in the final analysis, it really doesnít matter what size the bags of flour are, but it makes it harder to try and set-forth formulas. Even the sizes of the small bowls for the other ingredients are hard to see if they really are the same ones.  If it would be any help, I could fill my 20 qt. mixer bowl at market today with flour, to see how much flour my mixer bowl holds. I donít think that will really help though.

Norma

Mike,

I donít know how you post frames of Luigiís videos, but I and maybe other members would be interested in how you do that. 

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 02, 2011, 12:01:11 PM

Mike,

I donít know how you post frames of Luigiís videos, but I and maybe other members would be interested in how you do that. 

Norma

Norma,

I use this media player: http://www.gomlab.com/eng/GMP_Introduction.html

Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Jet_deck on September 02, 2011, 12:16:07 PM

I personally think that there is more than one size flour bag shown in the video.

I agree that it isn't really that important what size they are, but I wanted to put my last .02 in on the matter.  I contend that the lonely single bag under the table is a 25 or a 32# bag.  In another sequence the storage table is full of 50# bags.  The lonely small bag is the one that ends up being used at the mixer.  I say that they do use 50# bags for the mixer and make two 25# flour batches from a single bag. 

The video is so out of sequence.  For example the top of the flour sack is seen on the table next to the salt bowls.  When Guy starts talking about gluten is when Luigi is just starting to tear the bag.  I'm still trying to get some power flour.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 02, 2011, 12:44:19 PM
Peter,

Is that the same bucket with the sauce in it that Luigi uses to pour the water in? It looks like it has the same rim, the same indentations on the side of the rim, too. but the sauce bucket has some measurements on it.

If it's the same one, take a look at the screen capture where Luigi pours the water in. I enhanced it a bit but it looks like the water is almost at the rim and he keeps pouring. I can't really make out the numbers on the bucket but maybe someone else can...

Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on September 02, 2011, 12:48:40 PM
I don't know if they are. However, I think the ones used for the salt and oregano are the same size. Look at Luigi's hands. You'll see it's not a smallish bowl and he holds it with two hands.

I also measured mine: 6" diam. x 1.75" height. The bottom is 3.75" diam. if that matters.

Mike,

I thought that the bowls on the table to the left of the mixer were smaller than the ones used to make the sauce. However, I concluded that camera angles and distance from the objects might make it difficult to compare sizes and dimensions and maybe even distort some of the values. So, I decided that we needed a better system. I think I found it.

This is what I did. I went to a local supermarket and purchased a one-gallon jug of Crystal Geyser spring water. You will note that the water jug, the cap and the bowls appear simultaneously in several frames of the video, especially the cap and the bowls. I measured the width of one side of the water jug and it is 5". In fact, all sides are 5". The cap is 1.5" in diameter. I then went to several frames in the video (I would say at least six or seven frames) where the water jug, cap and bowls appeared (there were a lot more frames where both the cap and bowls were together) and, using the zoom feature of my computer, I blew up the images by 400%. I then took measurements off of my monitor, calculated certain ratios, and using the actual values for the water jug and cap, I concluded that the measuring bowls on the table were 5" in diameter (4.999999+", to be exact). I got the best set of numbers using the bottle cap and the bowls rather than the water jug itself and the bowls. There were fewer joint appearances of the water jug and the bowls and, while the sides of the jug are square, the corners are rounded. So, I wasn't sure that I got the best measurements for the water jug. Also, the cap and bowls were often right next to each other.

I then decided to go through the same exercise as discussed above but with the bottle cap, a bowl and the mixer all in the same frame. I wanted to see if I could determine the size of the mixer bowl. A good frame for this purpose is the one at 1:42. From my measurements from that frame, I calculated a diameter of 21.56". The diameter of a Hobart 80-quart mixer is 21 11/16". However, I couldn't get a good reading of the height of the mixer bowl to confirm the bowl size. So, while I would tend to guess that Luigi is using a Hobart mixer with an 80-cup mixer bowl, I am open to a better answer.

The measuring container that I was using to weigh items is about 4" in diameter. As time went on and I learned more about what was actually happening in the video, I could see that my numbers were on the low side. I plan to wrap a ring of cardboard around my container to increase it to 5" in diameter and re-do my weighings. I know my new weighings should be better even if they aren't perfect. I am trying to just get into the ballpark.

In your case, Mike, it looks like your bowl is of a good enough shape to do some weighings but you may want to mark off the 5" mark if you agree with my analysis. When I saw your photos next to the ones with Guy, I suspected that your numbers couldn't be right because you were wearing a different shirt than Guy :-D.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on September 02, 2011, 01:13:11 PM
I agree that it isn't really that important what size they are, but I wanted to put my last .02 in on the matter.  I contend that the lonely single bag under the table is a 25 or a 32# bag.  In another sequence the storage table is full of 50# bags.  The lonely small bag is the one that ends up being used at the mixer.  I say that they do use 50# bags for the mixer and make two 25# flour batches from a single bag. 

The video is so out of sequence.  For example the top of the flour sack is seen on the table next to the salt bowls.  When Guy starts talking about gluten is when Luigi is just starting to tear the bag.  I'm still trying to get some power flour.

Gene,

Your explanation is as plausible as any other I have seen in this thread. I will give you at least $.25 to keep posting at a 2 cent level.

I also agree with you, and with Mike and Norma, that there are a lot of things in the video that are out of order. I saw it in the way that things appeared and disappeared from the table next to the mixer and in the times on the clock on the wall.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on September 02, 2011, 01:31:11 PM
Is that the same bucket with the sauce in it that Luigi uses to pour the water in? It looks like it has the same rim, the same indentations on the side of the rim, too. but the sauce bucket has some measurements on it.

Mike,

I thought that the water container that first appears at 0:43 in the video ends up on the rack at 1:10. I was hoping to be able to determine the diameter of the container used to make the sauce to be able to determine the size of the bowls, such as the bowl shown, for example, at 4:17, but I couldn't read the markings to be able to get an idea as to the diameter of the sauce container.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 02, 2011, 02:25:52 PM
Mike,

I thought that the water container that first appears at 0:43 in the video ends up on the rack at 1:10. I was hoping to be able to determine the diameter of the container used to make the sauce to be able to determine the size of the bowls, such as the bowl shown, for example, at 4:17, but I couldn't read the markings to be able to get an idea as to the diameter of the sauce container.

Peter

Peter,

After comparing the buckets again, I think the sauce bucket is bigger than the other one. Regarding the markings of the sauce bucket at 4:17 I think the first number on the left says 7.0L but it's tough to make out because there's some sauce splattered on from behind.

Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 02, 2011, 02:26:53 PM
Mike,

I thought that the bowls on the table to the left of the mixer were smaller than the ones used to make the sauce. However, I concluded that camera angles and distance from the objects might make it difficult to compare sizes and dimensions and maybe even distort some of the values. So, I decided that we needed a better system. I think I found it.

This is what I did. I went to a local supermarket and purchased a one-gallon jug of Crystal Geyser spring water. You will note that the water jug, the cap and the bowls appear simultaneously in several frames of the video, especially the cap and the bowls. I measured the width of one side of the water jug and it is 5". In fact, all sides are 5". The cap is 1.5" in diameter. I then went to several frames in the video (I would say at least six or seven frames) where the water jug, cap and bowls appeared (there were a lot more frames where both the cap and bowls were together) and, using the zoom feature of my computer, I blew up the images by 400%. I then took measurements off of my monitor, calculated certain ratios, and using the actual values for the water jug and cap, I concluded that the measuring bowls on the table were 5" in diameter (4.999999+", to be exact). I got the best set of numbers using the bottle cap and the bowls rather than the water jug itself and the bowls. There were fewer joint appearances of the water jug and the bowls and, while the sides of the jug are square, the corners are rounded. So, I wasn't sure that I got the best measurements for the water jug. Also, the cap and bowls were often right next to each other.

I then decided to go through the same exercise as discussed above but with the bottle cap, a bowl and the mixer all in the same frame. I wanted to see if I could determine the size of the mixer bowl. A good frame for this purpose is the one at 1:42. From my measurements from that frame, I calculated a diameter of 21.56". The diameter of a Hobart 80-quart mixer is 21 11/16". However, I couldn't get a good reading of the height of the mixer bowl to confirm the bowl size. So, while I would tend to guess that Luigi is using a Hobart mixer with an 80-cup mixer bowl, I am open to a better answer.

The measuring container that I was using to weigh items is about 4" in diameter. As time went on and I learned more about what was actually happening in the video, I could see that my numbers were on the low side. I plan to wrap a ring of cardboard around my container to increase it to 5" in diameter and re-do my weighings. I know my new weighings should be better even if they aren't perfect. I am trying to just get into the ballpark.

In your case, Mike, it looks like your bowl is of a good enough shape to do some weighings but you may want to mark off the 5" mark if you agree with my analysis. When I saw your photos next to the ones with Guy, I suspected that your numbers couldn't be right because you were wearing a different shirt than Guy :-D.

Peter

Peter,

Good stuff! You must have worked in a forensics lab before  ;D
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 02, 2011, 05:07:13 PM
I'm still trying to get some power flour.

JD,

I'm sure you have a favorite pizza joint in your area. Do what I did and ask the pizza operator to order you a bag. My guy was extremely helpful and knowledgeable about different cheeses, flours, etc.

As a matter of fact, I just got back from paying him and will be picking the flour and cheese up this evening.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on September 02, 2011, 05:09:29 PM
All you guys,

I sure donít know how this will help, but I did take pictures and measurements of where my 50 lb. bags of flour are stored, and also approximate measurements of one 50 lb. bag of KASL.  

The shelf were my flour is stored is 22Ē in width and 29 ľĒ in length.  The approximate size of my 50 lb. bag of KASL (because it was full) was 28Ē in length and 18Ē in width.  I moved my bag of KASL around two ways.  

All of you guys are doing a great job trying to get this thread figured out!   ;D

Mike,  Thanks for telling me how you take pictures of frames.  That is great information to have!  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 02, 2011, 05:32:48 PM
All you guys,

I sure donít know how this will help, but I did take pictures and measurements of where my 50 lb. bags of flour are stored, and also approximate measurements of one 50 lb. bag of KASL.  

The shelf were my flour is stored is 22Ē in width and 29 ľĒ in length.  The approximate size of my 50 lb. bag of KASL (because it was full) was 28Ē in length and 18Ē in width.  I moved my bag of KASL around two ways.  

All of you guys are doing a great job trying to get this thread figured out!   ;D

Mike,  Thanks for telling me how you take pictures of frames.  That is great information to have!  :)

Norma

Norma,

I do think that the bags you see on the lower shelf of the table are the 50lb kind.

The GOM player is free to download. Try it out. It's great for slow-motion playback.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on September 02, 2011, 05:39:24 PM
Norma,

I do think that the bags you see on the lower shelf of the table are the 50lb kind.

The GOM player is free to download. Try it out. It's great for slow-motion playback.

Mike,

I probably will download the GOM player in a few days.  You really posted great frames from having the GOM player!  :) Those frames have helped this thread a lot.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 02, 2011, 09:43:44 PM
Got the flour and the cheese.

I don't know much about the Saputo Golden State select but my pizza guy told me that it is very much a Grande-quality cheese, which is pretty much what Scott R said here: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8314.msg71748.html#msg71748

I don't know if Scott was talking about the Golden State label or if he meant a different one.

Either way, my pizza guy kept mentioning cheese from F&A Dairy but I guess he got me this instead.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on September 03, 2011, 08:49:45 AM
Using several frames in the Luigi video, I did some more forensics work and I believe that the dimensions of the bowls on the table are as follows:

Top diameter: 5"
Bottom diameter: 2.5"-2.7"
Sides (measured on the slope): 1.5"

I couldn't get more precise measurements of the bottom diameter because of the glare in the video. Using 2.6" might be a good compromise.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 03, 2011, 12:44:31 PM
Peter,

Although we don't have any concrete numbers on the Luigi dough I gave the flour a little test run at 65% hydration.

I don't know, Peter...the dough didn't look like anything what you see in the video. I mean I was able to work with it, but it was much stickier than what you see in the video, especially the scene where they weighing and balling the dough.

I tried to follow Luigi's way of mixing as close as possible but I let the mixer do its thing on Speed 2 for only 8 minutes instead of the 15 minutes Luigi uses because I didn't want to over-knead the dough.

Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on September 03, 2011, 01:02:46 PM
Mike,

Did you add the rest of the ingredients also, such as the salt, yeast and sugar? Also, it is possible that in a home setting using a standard home grade mixer you may need to cut back on the hydration. Or you might try sifting the flour and add it gradually to the water to improve its hydration. It is also possible that your flour is very fresh and has a high moisture content that didn't have a chance to diminish while in transit and storage before you got it.

I also didn't see anything in the video on the speeds used for the 15 minute mix/knead. You can see the recommended mix/knead protocol in the post at Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7953.msg68396.html#msg68396. Also, many of the Hobart mixers, including the two models that I mentioned earlier, have 15 minute timers. I believe that Luigi used the timer. For example, you will see Luigi playing around with the timer at 1:41 in the video. At 1:45, he pushes the Start button.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 03, 2011, 01:57:37 PM
Mike,

Did you add the rest of the ingredients also, such as the salt, yeast and sugar? Also, it is possible that in a home setting using a standard home grade mixer you may need to cut back on the hydration. Or you might try sifting the flour and add it gradually to the water to improve its hydration. It is also possible that your flour is very fresh and has a high moisture content that didn't have a chance to diminish while in transit and storage before you got it.

I also didn't see anything in the video on the speeds used for the 15 minute mix/knead. You can see the recommended mix/knead protocol in the post at Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7953.msg68396.html#msg68396. Also, many of the Hobart mixers, including the two models that I mentioned earlier, have 15 minute timers. That might be what Luigi uses in the video.

Peter


Peter,

I did add everything and followed the mixing procedure closely, as in .25% yeast first, then 1.75% sugar...dissolve...then 2% salt. I even gave the flour a 10 minute rest after combining everything.

I have the complete formula at home and can post it later on tonight. But it's not a Luigi formula, though, since we don't have the numbers yet.

With my next batch, I'll try a lower hydration, perhaps 62%, and see what happens.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on September 03, 2011, 08:02:55 PM
In the next post, I will present four Luigi clone dough formulations for testing purposes. In this post, I will discuss what I did and how and why so it will hopefully be clear how I arrived at all of my numbers.

The four dough formulations in the next post are based on using 25-, 30-, 32- and 50-pound bags of the Pendleton Power high-gluten flour. By way of recapitulation, the 25-, 32- and 50-pound bags of the Power flour are unbleached. The 30-pound bag of Power flour is bleached. We donít know exactly which size bag or flour was used in the video (although we tend not to believe that it is 50 pounds), or whether the flour in the Luigi video was bleached or unbleached. That is the reason for the multiple dough formulations and also why I have included examples of both bleached and unbleached Power flours. The latest information has it that Luigi is using 50-pound bags of Power flour, along with IDY. In the video, Guy Fieri describes the yeast as ďdry active yeastĒ. Presumably, he means ADY. For my purposes, I used ADY but it is easy enough to convert that to IDY should anyone wish to do so. If Guy Fieri was in error and he really meant IDY, then the dough formulations will have to be corrected at such time as the error is confirmed.

For the hydration value in the dough formulations, I used 65%. That is the rated absorption value for the Power flour, as I recently reported. Also, when I looked at the Luigi video, I felt that the hydration value he used was about 65%, strictly from the appearance of the dough balls that were made shortly after the dough was completed. In a home setting using standard mixers, one might choose to use a lower hydration value since home equipment in most cases is not as good at hydrating a flour and developing the gluten structure as a commercial Hobart mixer in a commercial setting. As scott123 told us, the water used in the Luigi video is Crystal Geyser spring water, in gallon jugs. He should also get credit for having identified the Pendleton Power flour as the flour used by Luigi in the video.

In order to determine how much yeast and salt to use, I did some calculations from the video, as earlier described, and put together a cardboard mock-up of a bowl having the dimensions mentioned in Reply 172 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg151794.html#msg151794. I even glued a thin black plastic film to the inside of my bowl so that the lines of demarcation between the ingredients in the bowl would be more pronounced against the black backdrop. I did my best to carefully eyeball the amounts of ingredients as I put them into my bowl, watching frames of the video as I did so, but I was also conscious that this is not a perfect exercise and that there are also compaction dynamics with yeast and salt that can affect the final amounts that end up in the bowl (Luigi would have encountered the same laws of physics when he put the ingredients in the various bowls). However, I am comfortable about what I did overall.

To be sure that the yeast shown in the video was in two bowls, and not just one, I viewed the yeast in my bowl through a translucent container such as the one shown at 1:00 in the video (that partly obscures one of the bowls) and then did the same with salt in a bowl. The two different colors (dull for the yeast and brighter for the salt) led me to conclude that there are two bowls of yeast in the video. If the only yeast was the small amount shown in one of the bowls in the video, and there was something else in the other bowl adjacent to it (the one partly obscured by the translucent water pitcher), the amount of yeast from a bakerís percent would be woefully inadequate for a normal fermentation. Also, the stream of yeast going into the water as shown in the video is much more than a small amount.

I should also mention that I measured out the volume of yeast using IDY, not ADY. I did not have ADY in bulk to use for the weighings. However, I converted the weight of the IDY to a corresponding weight of ADY. For the conversion, I used the conversion data built into the expanded dough calculating tool, which is the tool I used to come up with the four Luigi dough clone formulations in the next post. As a cross check, I also looked at the conversion factors built into the theartisan.net yeast conversion table at http://www.theartisan.net/convert_yeast_two.htm, and the conversion data from that table is quite close to my values. If people want to do a bit of math, they can use the theartisan.net yeast conversion table to do the conversions if they prefer to use those numbers.

As I discussed before, I believe that there are two bowls of salt used in the video to make Luigiís dough. When I later did the calculations for the salt bakerís percent, it was clear that two bowls of salt were used because using only one would have produced bakerís percent numbers for the salt that would have been too low in my opinion. To get an idea as to how low, one might just divided the salt bakerís percents in the four Luigi clone dough formulations by a factor of roughly two.

As I also noted before, I could not find a bowl on the table for the sugar. In the video, Luigi says he uses a small amount of sugar to help the yeast get started but I did not see him holding a bowl of the sugar. The video only shows about a four-second fan or stream of sugar going into the mixer bowl. So, I tried to simulate what he did by reaching into my sugar bag, grabbing a handful and releasing it from a height of a couple of feet to create a four-second stream into a bowl. That is the amount reflected in the dough formulations in the next post. If I am wrong, I will need evidence of it and will happily receive it.

Members will have the option of deciding which Luigi clone dough formulation to use. Since all of the dough formulations are based on using full bags of flours, those wishing to come up with a dough formulation for a particular size pizzas can do so by selecting the Thickness Factor option of the expanded dough calculating tool (at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html), and then enter the desired pizza size, a thickness factor value of 0.070736, and the bakerís percents for the ADY (or the correct percent of IDY if substituted for the ADY), for the salt and for the sugar from the clone dough formulation they would like to try. The Luigi video only mentions using 18 ounces of dough for an 18Ē pizza. Since most people do not have ovens big enough to make 18Ē pizzas directly on pizza stones, it makes sense to make smaller sizes. I did not use any bowl residue compensation for any of the four Luigi clone dough formulations since I was trying to recreate what I think is happening in the Luigi video. Members should feel free to use them if they so wish when making one or more dough balls in a home setting, which is my standard practice.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on September 03, 2011, 08:11:02 PM
I have presented below the four Luigi clone dough formulations. I think it will become evident that a 50-pound bag of Pendleton Power flour was not used to make the dough shown in the Luigi video. I included it since members kept noting what appeared to be 50-pound bags of flour in the storage unit next to the oven. I thought that it would have become evident that the size of the dough batch that was shown in the video was far less than you would get with a 50-pound bag of flour (around 83 pounds). But I thought it would be useful to put the matter to rest.

Some may also rule out the clone formulation based on 30 pounds of flour because it is a bleached flour, and Luigi currently uses the unbleached Power flour. However, the video does not tell us that the flour is bleached or unbleached.

Assuming that what I did was correct or nearly so, does anyone want to venture to guess which Luigi clone dough formulation might have been used in the video? And why?

I hope that members who decide to test out one or more of the Luigi clone dough formulations will report back on their results. Having spent so much time on this project, as have Mike and Norma, with others in the wings, Iíd like to know if my approach and analysis was correct.

# 1: Luigi Clone Dough Formulation (Based on 25-pound Bag of Power Flour)
Pendleton Power High-Gluten Flour, Unbleached (100%):
Water (Crystal Geyser Spring Water) (65%):
ADY (0.70827%):
Salt (1.984%):
Sugar (0.22928%):
Total (167.92155%):
11339.99 g  |  400 oz | 25 lbs
7371 g  |  260 oz | 16.25 lbs
80.32 g | 2.83 oz | 0.18 lbs | 7.08 tbsp | 0.44 cups
224.99 g | 7.94 oz | 0.5 lbs | 13.44 tbsp | 0.84 cups
26 g | 0.92 oz | 0.06 lbs | 6.52 tsp | 2.17 tbsp
19042.3 g | 671.69 oz | 41.98 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: No bowl residue compensation

#2: Luigi Clone Dough Formulation (Based on 30-pound Bag of Power Flour)
Pendleton Power High-Gluten Flour, Bleached (100%):
Water (Crystal Geyser Spring Water) (65%):
ADY (0.6271%):
Salt (1.65344%):
Sugar (0.19106%):
Total (167.4716%):
13608 g  |  480 oz | 30 lbs
8845.2 g  |  312 oz | 19.5 lbs
85.34 g | 3.01 oz | 0.19 lbs | 7.53 tbsp | 0.47 cups
225 g | 7.94 oz | 0.5 lbs | 13.44 tbsp | 0.84 cups
26 g | 0.92 oz | 0.06 lbs | 6.52 tsp | 2.17 tbsp
22789.54 g | 803.86 oz | 50.24 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: No bowl residue compensation

#3: Luigi Clone Dough Formulation (Based on 32-Pound Bag of Power Flour)
Pendleton Power High-Gluten Flour, Unbleached (100%):
Water (Crystal Geyser Spring Water) (65%):
ADY (0.5533%):
Salt (1.5501%):
Sugar (0.17912%):
Total (167.28252%):
14515.2 g  |  512 oz | 32 lbs
9434.88 g  |  332.8 oz | 20.8 lbs
80.31 g | 2.83 oz | 0.18 lbs | 7.08 tbsp | 0.44 cups
225 g | 7.94 oz | 0.5 lbs | 13.44 tbsp | 0.84 cups
26 g | 0.92 oz | 0.06 lbs | 6.52 tsp | 2.17 tbsp
24281.39 g | 856.49 oz | 53.53 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: No bowl residue compensation

#4: Luigi Clone Dough Formulation (Based on 50-Pound Bag of Power Flour)
Pendleton Power High-Gluten Flour, Unbleached (100%):
Water (Crystal Geyser Spring Water) (65%):
ADY (0.35412%):
Salt (0.9921%):
Sugar (0.11464%):
Total (166.46086%):
22680 g  |  800 oz | 50 lbs
14742 g  |  520 oz | 32.5 lbs
80.31 g | 2.83 oz | 0.18 lbs | 7.08 tbsp | 0.44 cups
225.01 g | 7.94 oz | 0.5 lbs | 13.44 tbsp | 0.84 cups
26 g | 0.92 oz | 0.06 lbs | 6.52 tsp | 2.17 tbsp
37753.33 g | 1331.69 oz | 83.23 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: No bowl residue compensation

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 03, 2011, 08:32:09 PM
Peter,

WOW! I'm completely convinced that you must have really worked in a forensics lab  ;D

What you posted is fantastic and I will definitely report back to you on how things turned out since I am probably the only one with a bag of PPF at the moment. But Norma could probably achieve comparable results with the Sir Lancelot flour, no?

But I have one question: How do I know which formula to use? I could test all four, no problem, but we'd still don't really know which one's the one Luigi uses or comes closest to his except for going to get a slice in person. No wait, the 'bleached' version is out since I don't have that kind of flour.

I also might have to lower the hydration a couple of percentage points.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 03, 2011, 08:53:08 PM
Given the numbers Peter has set forth in above's post I came up with a scaled down first version (25lb bag), using IDY instead of ADY, for a 17" Luigi clone with a hydration of 62%.

If there are any errors in it, please point them out.

25 lb bag clone / 2 x 17" pizza


Flour (100%):
Water (62%):
IDY (0.56437%):
Salt (1.984%):
Sugar (.22928%):
Total (164.77765%):
Single Ball:
552.48 g  |  19.49 oz | 1.22 lbs
342.53 g  |  12.08 oz | 0.76 lbs
3.12 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.04 tsp | 0.35 tbsp
10.96 g | 0.39 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.96 tsp | 0.65 tbsp
1.27 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.32 tsp | 0.11 tbsp
910.36 g | 32.11 oz | 2.01 lbs | TF = 0.070736
455.18 g | 16.06 oz | 1 lbs

32 lb bag clone / 2 x 17" pizza

Flour (100%):
Water (62%):
IDY (0.44092%):
Salt (1.5501%):
Sugar (0.17912%):
Total (164.17014%):
Single Ball:
554.52 g  |  19.56 oz | 1.22 lbs
343.8 g  |  12.13 oz | 0.76 lbs
2.44 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.81 tsp | 0.27 tbsp
8.6 g | 0.3 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.54 tsp | 0.51 tbsp
0.99 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.25 tsp | 0.08 tbsp
910.36 g | 32.11 oz | 2.01 lbs | TF = 0.070736
455.18 g | 16.06 oz | 1 lbs

50 lb bag clone / 2 x 17" pizza

Flour (100%):
Water (62%):
IDY (0.35412%):
Salt (0.9921%):
Sugar (0.11464%):
Total (163.46086%):
Single Ball:
556.93 g  |  19.64 oz | 1.23 lbs
345.29 g  |  12.18 oz | 0.76 lbs
1.97 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.65 tsp | 0.22 tbsp
5.53 g | 0.19 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.99 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
0.64 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.16 tsp | 0.05 tbsp
910.36 g | 32.11 oz | 2.01 lbs | TF = 0.070736
455.18 g | 16.06 oz | 1 lbs

All three formulas are without bowl residue compensation.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on September 03, 2011, 08:59:56 PM
Mike,

Yes, I think that Norma could use the KASL and possibly other high-gluten flours in the same protein range, or maybe even something closer to the Power flour protein content but with a lower hydration value. She has the advantage of having a deck oven and the capability of making 18" pizzas.

Hopefully before you are ready to make the next batch of dough we will get some guesses on which of the four Luigi clone dough formulations looks to be the closest to what is used in the Luigi video.

I have not worked in forensics before. I think it is all the experience with reverse engineering and cloning that is the explanation. However, there is one thing that I have not been able to figure out in the video. Maybe you can help me with it. Can you tell me what is in the nose of the young lady at 0:34 in the video? Maybe she got too close to her vegan pizza?

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 03, 2011, 09:06:49 PM
Mike,

Yes, I think that Norma could use the KASL and possibly other high-gluten flours in the same protein range, or maybe even something closer to the Power flour protein content but with a lower hydration value. She has the advantage of having a deck oven and the capability of making 18" pizzas.

Hopefully before you are ready to make the next batch of dough we will get some guesses on which of the four Luigi clone dough formulations looks to be the closest to what is used in the Luigi video.

I have not worked in forensics before. I think it is all the experience with reverse engineering and cloning that is the explanation. However, there is one thing that I have not been able to figure out in the video. Maybe you can help me with it. Can you tell me what is in the nose of the young lady at 0:34 in the video? Maybe she got too close to her vegan pizza?

Peter

Peter,

I have edited my previous post and posted three formulas for the 25, 32 & 50 bags since I don't have any bleached flour except for the Harvest Bread which isn't a high-gluten.

That young lady is sporting a nose piercing of some sort.

Don't ask me what the hype is with body piercings but here in SF most Hipsters, alternative people and the guys in the Haight-Ashbury area sporting these, along with tattoos in excess. When she said "I like the vegan a lot..." that did it for me.  ;D
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on September 03, 2011, 09:17:03 PM
Mike,

When using IDY instead of ADY, you have to use different percents for the IDY.

For #1 Luigi (25 pound version), you want to use 0.56437% IDY. For #3 Luigi (32 pound version), you want to use 0.44092% IDY. And for #4 Luigi (50 pound version), you want to use 0.28219% IDY. If you re-do your numbers in the expanded dough calculating tool but with the above values for IDY, I think you should be OK.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 03, 2011, 09:19:00 PM
Mike,

When using IDY instead of ADY, you have to use different percents for the IDY.

For #1 Luigi (25 pound version), you want to use 0.56437% IDY. For #3 Luigi (32 pound version), you want to use 0.44092% IDY. And for #4 Luigi (50 pound version), you want to use 0.28219% IDY. If you re-do your numbers in the expanded dough calculating tool but with the above values for IDY, I think you should be OK.

Peter

Peter,

Excellent. Will modify and re-post. Thanks a bunch.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 03, 2011, 09:45:54 PM
There's one other thing that got me thinking and that's about his sauce composition. Right at the beginning the blonde lady says "The sauce is very sweet...".

I use 6 in 1's ground tomatoes for my sauces and they have a certain sweetness to them but I wouldn't say that without sugar and all the spices Luigi adds that the sauce would be "very sweet", especially when one considers the mingling of the sauce and cheese and toppings. So he must be adding some sugar to it, to perhaps make the sauce stand out, offset or balance out the saltiness of the mozzarella he uses, or both. But it is not shown in the video that he actually puts sugar in.

Also, given the fact that one picture on his website in the gallery shows Full Red Heavy Puree he might have switched over instead of using his ground tomatoes as Fieri mentions in the video. I'll see if I can get a can of Full Red from my pizza guy, just to compare.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on September 03, 2011, 10:01:06 PM
Mike,

I don't see the logic of intentionally omitting sugar in the video--and only sugar--if Luigi is actually using sugar in his sauce. The Stanislaus tomatoes are fresh-pack tomatoes that are naturally sweeter than most tomato products that you see out there, especially those made from concentrates, so it wouldn't surprise me that someone used to regular (non-fresh-pack) tomatoes that they might get at their local supermarket might find Luigi's sauce sweet. The only way to know what effect the herbs, grated cheese, etc., has on the sweetness of Luigi's sauce is to reverse engineer it to find the percents of those ingredients used.

I have learned to pretty much ignore terms like "sweet", "salty", "chewy", "crispy", "cracker-like", "thin", "thick", and so on. They mean different things to different people.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 03, 2011, 10:24:27 PM
Mike,

I don't see the logic of intentionally omitting sugar in the video--and only sugar--if Luigi is actually using sugar in his sauce. The Stanislaus tomatoes are fresh-pack tomatoes that are naturally sweeter than most tomato products that you see out there, especially those made from concentrates, so it wouldn't surprise me that someone used to regular (non-fresh-pack) tomatoes that they might get at their local supermarket might find Luigi's sauce sweet. The only way to know what effect the herbs, grated cheese, etc., has on the sweetness of Luigi's sauce is to reverse engineer it to find the percents of those ingredients used.

I have learned to pretty much ignore terms like "sweet", "salty", "chewy", "crispy", "cracker-like", "thin", "thick", and so on. They mean different things to different people.

Peter

Peter,

The reason I mentioned it was because Fieri mentions ground tomatoes when the video was taped, probably somewhere in late spring or summer 2008. The video, I believe, was posted on YouTube in Jan. 2010 so he might have switched from ground tomatoes to Heavy Puree from Stanislaus.

Regarding reverse engineering the sauce...well...I'm up for it. If we can get the sauce, too, we'd have the perfect clone. Except for the toppings and the amount of cheese, that is.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on September 03, 2011, 10:26:01 PM


Assuming that what I did was correct or nearly so, does anyone want to venture to guess which Luigi clone dough formulation might have been used in the video? And why?


Peter


Peter,

Since you posted if someone wanted to venture a guess which formula might be the one Luigi is using, I would venture a guess of  #2 Luigi Clone Dough Formulation.  The reason I would guess #2,  is because the amount of ADY seems like the lowest value, for a smaller than 50 lb. bag of flour.  The other values for less than 50 lb. bags of flour seem to high to me.  Also the salt in #2 seems okay to me.  I know I am probably wrong, but am just guessing.  

I canít believe you went to all the work you did today to get to where you are now in setting forth something to try.  

I probably will try a Luigiís attempt at some point in time.  

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: scott123 on September 03, 2011, 10:36:38 PM
With my next batch, I'll try a lower hydration, perhaps 62%, and see what happens.

I think it's going to be really difficult to precisely match the amount of kneading Luigi does with his Hobart with a home machine. Usually, the larger the mixer, the slower the rotation, the less agitation/gluten development, so you'll most likely want less than 15 minutes, but I really can't say how much less.

This being said, as I look at your 8 minute kneaded 65% dough, it's definitely striking me as being a bit on the slack side. Based upon those images and that knead time, I'm fully behind some 62% experimentation.

Peter, nice work on the formulas.

One thing I'm going to toss out there regarding the 50# bag.  First of all, you can't walk into a pizzeria supplier in my area and purchase anything other than 50# bags. Secondly, larger bags tend to be less expensive than smaller ones, and, for a pizzeria owner counting every penny, it makes sense for them to choose the lower price point.  I've never heard of a pizzeria using anything other than 50# bags, but, Luigi's being in CA, they might do things differently. I'm not saying it has to be 50#, but I wouldn't necessarily count it out. 
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 03, 2011, 10:43:54 PM
I think it's going to be really difficult to precisely match the amount of kneading Luigi does with his Hobart with a home machine. Usually, the larger the mixer, the slower the rotation, the less agitation/gluten development, so you'll most likely want less than 15 minutes, but I really can't say how much less.

This being said, as I look at your 8 minute kneaded 65% dough, it's definitely striking me as being a bit on the slack side. Based upon those images and that knead time, I'm fully behind some 62% experimentation.

Peter, nice work on the formulas.

One thing I'm going to toss out there regarding the 50# bag.  First of all, you can't walk into a pizzeria supplier in my area and purchase anything other than 50# bags. Secondly, larger bags tend to be less expensive than smaller ones, and, for a pizzeria owner counting every penny, it makes sense for them to choose the lower price point.  I've never heard of a pizzeria using anything other than 50# bags, but, Luigi's being in CA, they might do things differently. I'm not saying it has to be 50#, but I wouldn't necessarily count it out. 

Scotty,

I have a Cuisinart SM-55 mixer with a rotating dial for Speed adjustments. I can go from extremely slow (Speed 1) to extremely fast (Speed 12). I normally choose the Speed 2 but my mixer is still no match for a Pro one. Eight minutes at Speed 2 at 62% hydration sounds about right to me, perhaps six minutes might do the trick, too.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 03, 2011, 11:10:59 PM

I probably will try a Luigiís attempt at some point in time.  

Norma

Norma,

Seriously?? At some point???  :(

You have the biggest advantage with a commercial oven that's capable of baking an 18" pie, that has the right temp and you have the mixer to test Peter's formulas. I'm not saying do a full 50 lb bag of Sir Lancelot but maybe half?  ::)

Please, please, please... do it, so we all can go from there and evaluate your findings!   :)
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on September 03, 2011, 11:20:45 PM
Norma,

Seriously?? At some point???  :(

You have the biggest advantage with a commercial oven that's capable of baking an 18" pie, that has the right temp and you have the mixer to test Peter's formulas. I'm not saying do a full 50 lb bag of Sir Lancelot but maybe half?  ::)

Please, please, please... do it, so we all can go from there and evaluate your findings!   :)

Mike,

Lol, you sure made me chuckle!  :-D To tell the truth, I donít know how to use Novemberís tool to mix flours to get the right protein to try.  :-D  I donít even know which formula to try either. 

I probably would only try one pie in my deck oven first.  My Kitchen Aid mixer can make decent dough.  I would like to see the results of one pie first, before I go about using a lot of flour or mixes of flour. 

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on September 04, 2011, 09:47:46 AM
Since you posted if someone wanted to venture a guess which formula might be the one Luigi is using, I would venture a guess of  #2 Luigi Clone Dough Formulation.  The reason I would guess #2,  is because the amount of ADY seems like the lowest value, for a smaller than 50 lb. bag of flour.  The other values for less than 50 lb. bags of flour seem to high to me.  Also the salt in #2 seems okay to me.  I know I am probably wrong, but am just guessing.  

Norma,

I don't know at this point whether your guess is correct or not, but if you go back to Reply 33 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg150824.html#msg150824, you will see that I discussed the possibility of a dough doing double duty and being used to make either a room temperature fermented dough or a cold fermented dough (or even some combination of the two). You will also note that in Reply 33 I mentioned the possibility of using 0.70-0.80% ADY. That was before I did my latest weighings. That number is also in line with Luigi #1 (using 25 pounds of flour) as set forth in Reply 177 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg151870.html#msg151870. Also, the relatively high salt level of Luigi #1, 1.984%, would most likely result in a dough with a stronger gluten structure and be more amenable to handling without experiencing overextensibility or tearing problems. If Luigi intended for his dough to do double duty, then his terse response to Guy about fermentation would have been technically correct, even if he decided to use cold fermentation. This is, of course, only my speculation. However, you may recall from the Jet's thread that I once had a discussion with the manager of a Jet's Pizza store who told me that they made the dough early in the morning (most Jet's stores start the dough at around 9AM to be able to start making pizzas at noon) and let the dough balls ferment at room temperature, with any dough balls unused by the end of the day, or possibly even sooner based on actual demand, going into the cooler and being used the next day. The amount of yeast in the Jet's dough is quite high, in line with Luigi #1. Of course, Jet's doesn't have to worry about dough handling issues since the dough balls go into pans, not opened up by hand.

You might also recall that most of Peter Reinhart's doughs do double duty using the same quantity of yeast. Of course, most of his recipes are not intended for commercial production.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on September 04, 2011, 10:07:28 AM
One thing I'm going to toss out there regarding the 50# bag.  First of all, you can't walk into a pizzeria supplier in my area and purchase anything other than 50# bags. Secondly, larger bags tend to be less expensive than smaller ones, and, for a pizzeria owner counting every penny, it makes sense for them to choose the lower price point.  I've never heard of a pizzeria using anything other than 50# bags, but, Luigi's being in CA, they might do things differently. I'm not saying it has to be 50#, but I wouldn't necessarily count it out.  

scott123,

I tend to agree with you. In fact, Gene (Jet_deck) reported at Reply 91 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg151218.html#msg151218 that Luigi's is currently using 50-pound bags of flour. I think that one of the smaller bags of flour was used during the video shoot because it was convenient and easy to do. There would be no need to tear open a 50-pound bag and weigh out an amount of flour to use. If there was a commercial scale in Luigi's place capable of weighing out large quantities of flour, such as shown, for example, at 0:59 in the Lehmann-Zeak video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dtiOxq73uM&feature=related, I did not see it. No doubt, whatever mixer Luigi is now using can handle 50-pound bags of flour.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 04, 2011, 12:43:41 PM
Mike,

Lol, you sure made me chuckle!  :-D To tell the truth, I donít know how to use Novemberís tool to mix flours to get the right protein to try.  :-D  I donít even know which formula to try either. 

I probably would only try one pie in my deck oven first.  My Kitchen Aid mixer can make decent dough.  I would like to see the results of one pie first, before I go about using a lot of flour or mixes of flour. 

Norma

Norma,

Glad you got a chuckle out of my plea  ;D

Anyway, I made another batch last night, Luigi #1 formula, and will report back tonight on how it turned out.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Jet_deck on September 04, 2011, 12:50:42 PM
I have presented below the four Luigi clone dough formulations.

Peter, you are one in a zillion.  No man or machine can replace your intuition.  Hats off to you. :chef:
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on September 04, 2011, 12:57:44 PM
Gene,

Thank you very much for the nice compliment. It must be the Sherlock Holmes in me.

Would you care to venture a guess on which of the four Luigi dough formulations might have come closest to the one used to do the Luigi shoot?

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on September 04, 2011, 01:00:30 PM
To tell the truth, I donít know how to use Novemberís tool to mix flours to get the right protein to try. 

Norma,

Whenever you are ready and know which flours you want to use and the amount of formula flour, I can help you with the calculations. In your case, you might want to use a combination of the KASL and KAAP since both are unbleached and unbromated.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 04, 2011, 01:03:11 PM
Quick assessment and impressions of the Pendleton Power Flour.

When I got the flour on Friday I was anxious to see how it holds up to a 65% hydration. Well, my initial reaction as you can see here http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg151818.html#msg151818  wasn't so great. The dough was very sticky and a little tough to work with.

However, that all changed completely when i took it out of the fridge last night, brought it up to room temp and worked with it. I can only say one thing...this is possibly the best flour I have worked with. GM's All Trumps can't hold a candle to the PPF, which is unbleached, unbromated, unmalted but enriched, whereas the 10 lbs of All Trumps I've worked with earlier this year was bromated, bleached and malted.

The feel when shaping it was an extremely smooth and silky feel and the skin was absolutely easy to open, no tearing whatsoever. A totally hassle-free experience. This flour is really a pleasure and now I know why my pizza guy said it's one of the best flours available in the industry.

Anyway, I made another batch last night, using Luigi's clone #1 formula http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg151876.html#msg151876 with a 62% hydration instead of 65%.

The experience was unreal. This flour really shined with the 62% hydration. No stickiness, not hassle to work with, just pure pleasure. It might even be better at a 63% hydration. I followed Luigi's mixing procedure to the T except I mixed the dough only for 6 minutes. It didn't need more than that.

I can only advice to get your hands on this flour if you're into NY-style pizza. It's hands down the best I've experienced so far.

Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 04, 2011, 01:05:21 PM
And the 62% hydration dough...

Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 04, 2011, 01:05:49 PM
Peter, you are one in a zillion.  No man or machine can replace your intuition.  Hats off to you. :chef:

I second that!
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on September 04, 2011, 01:46:02 PM
Regarding reverse engineering the sauce...well...I'm up for it. If we can get the sauce, too, we'd have the perfect clone. Except for the toppings and the amount of cheese, that is.

Mike,

Thank you also for the kind remarks. Now, back to the business at handÖ ;D

I believe that the large sauce container shown in the Luigi video and also those shown in Reply 161 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg151733.html#msg151733 are translucent Poly (polycarbonate) containers such as the 22-quart capacity storage container as shown at the Cambro website at http://cool.cambro.com/Poly_Rounds_Round_Storage_Containers_and_Lids_Storage.ashx. You will note that that container has a height of 15Ē and a top diameter of 14 7/8Ē. The Cambro website does not say whether the top diameter is with the lid on the container but, according to http://www.wasserstrom.com/restaurant-supplies-equipment/Product_281739, a typical lid for a 22-quart storage container has a diameter of 14 7/8Ē That suggests that the storage container itself has a slightly smaller diameter. Maybe you can recalibrate your eyeballs to view the markings on the sauce containers and tell me if I found the right size container.

With respect to the types of Stanislaus tomatoes that Luigi used at the time of the video shoot, which was in the fall of 2008 (http://pizzerialuigi.com/about.html), I looked at the photos that Norma linked to at http://edwinreal.posterous.com/pizzeria-luigi-golden-hill, and the only photo I see of tomato cans is the one to the Stanislaus Full Red Extra Heavy Tomato Puree. The photo is the first one in the next to the last row of photos. However, when I looked at the yelp photo at http://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/ieatOFaTeDqXEV01_GT5_Q?select=NoF5rhJu-yyOQ7AiJ4RjBw, which shows cans of the Stanislaus 7/11 Ground Tomatoes, I saw that the photo was uploaded to yelp on September 10, 2008. So, it looks like Luigi may have been using both kinds of tomatoes for his pizza sauce at the time of the video shoot.

According to Stanislaus, at http://www.stanislaus.com/, a #10 can of its tomatoes is a gallon. However, the weight of the contents depends on the type of tomato product in the can. For example, according to the nutrition data at the Stanislaus website, the contents of a #10 can of the Full Red Extra Heavy Tomato Puree weighs, by my calculation, about 8.47 pounds. The corresponding number for the 7/11 Ground Tomatoes is about 8.82 pounds.

I am not a tomato expert, but to my way of thinking, a tomato puree is ground tomatoes. In the case of the Full Red Extra Heavy Tomato Puree, the product is made without seeds or skins. Stanislaus says that the 7/11 Ground Tomatoes are made from chunky fresh-ground unpeeled tomatoes fresh-packed in combination with puree, and contains bits of skin and more tomato pectin (for a "homemade" texture). Not surprisingly, Stanislaus frowns upon its customers diluting their tomato products with water (they claim that the water dilutes the tomato flavor), preferring that they combine different ones of the Stanislaus tomato products, as many of their customers do. However, there are Stanislaus customers who do dilute Stanislaus tomato products with water (Jetís Pizza in one such customer). I did not see anything in the Luigi video to suggest that he dilutes the tomatoes used to make his sauce. There is also nothing to suggest that Luigi is combining different Stanislaus tomato products.

Based on the photo that you provided in Reply 161 referenced above, showing all three containers with the same amount of sauce in them, I would say that the amounts shown may be the standard amounts. Quite possibly, four #10 cans of tomatoes are used in making the sauce shown in those containers.

Turning now to the ingredients added to the tomatoes to make the sauce, I believe that the bowls holding those ingredients may be the same type of bowls as were on the table next to the mixer, with the exception that the container holding the garlic powder, at 4:18, and the one holding the grated cheese, at 4:20, look to be larger or else they are distorted up-close camera shots. The bowls shown in the frame at 4:17 and the one for the basil at 4:22 seem to be alike. One with ample quantities of the various additions to the Stanislaus tomatoes to make the sauce would have to conduct some weighings or else just eyeball the amounts as shown in the video and scale down the total weight to correspond to the number of #10 cans (or smaller size) used to make a clone sauce for a home setting. For example, if four #10 cans of Stanislaus tomatoes are used to make a standard sauce batch, one using one #10 can of tomatoes would divide the total weights of ingredients (red pepper flakes, Greek oregano, salt, pepper, granulated garlic, grated cheese and fresh basil) by four. For someone using a 28-ounce can of ground tomatoes, I think a divisor of about 20 should come pretty close.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 04, 2011, 02:19:05 PM
Peter,

After recalibrating my eyeballs I took this screen shot of the large bucket and it shows what I believe the number 20 on it and another number above that but I can't make that out.

I assume it's the number 22. I think you're correct with your hunch that this is a 22 qt bucket. I also took a shot at the two different bowls sizes, the one for oregano, salt, black pepper, etc and the one for basil and garlic. The latter two seem larger.

I got to come up with some calculations regarding the different amounts for the sauce and would have to go with the 28 oz can measure because that's all I have at the moment.

I also noticed that the level of the sauce in the video is at or around the 15L/16qt mark.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 04, 2011, 05:09:25 PM
Peter,

I have all the ingredients for Luigi's sauce but not in the quantities to measure them all out, especially the amounts of garlic and parmesan cheese, so I have to eyeball them. But it seems that the salt, pepper, oregano are the same amount, the red pepper flakes a tad smaller, the garlic double the amount of the salt, pepper and oregano and the parmesan probably double the amount of the garlic.

For a 28 oz can I'd probably use 2 tsp of the red pepper, one Tbsp for each the salt, pepper and oregano, 1.5 Tbsp of the garlic and 3 Tbsp for the parmesan.

In grams that would be 794 gr for the can of tomatoes, 10 gr red pepper flakes, 15 gr for each, the salt, oregano and pepper, 22.5 gr for the garlic and 45 gr for the parmesan cheese. I'm still not sure about the basil, though. It could be somewhere in the realm of 30-40 gr, perhaps.

Do those quantities make any sense?
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on September 04, 2011, 07:07:45 PM
Norma,

I don't know at this point whether your guess is correct or not, but if you go back to Reply 33 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg150824.html#msg150824, you will see that I discussed the possibility of a dough doing double duty and being used to make either a room temperature fermented dough or a cold fermented dough (or even some combination of the two). You will also note that in Reply 33 I mentioned the possibility of using 0.70-0.80% ADY. That was before I did my latest weighings. That number is also in line with Luigi #1 (using 25 pounds of flour) as set forth in Reply 177 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg151870.html#msg151870. Also, the relatively high salt level of Luigi #1, 1.984%, would most likely result in a dough with a stronger gluten structure and be more amenable to handling without experiencing overextensibility or tearing problems. If Luigi intended for his dough to do double duty, then his terse response to Guy about fermentation would have been technically correct, even if he decided to use cold fermentation. This is, of course, only my speculation. However, you may recall from the Jet's thread that I once had a discussion with the manager of a Jet's Pizza store who told me that they made the dough early in the morning (most Jet's stores start the dough at around 9AM to be able to start making pizzas at noon) and let the dough balls ferment at room temperature, with any dough balls unused by the end of the day, or possibly even sooner based on actual demand, going into the cooler and being used the next day. The amount of yeast in the Jet's dough is quite high, in line with Luigi #1. Of course, Jet's doesn't have to worry about dough handling issues since the dough balls go into pans, not opened up by hand.

You might also recall that most of Peter Reinhart's doughs do double duty using the same quantity of yeast. Of course, most of his recipes are not intended for commercial production.

Peter


Norma,

Whenever you are ready and know which flours you want to use and the amount of formula flour, I can help you with the calculations. In your case, you might want to use a combination of the KASL and KAAP since both are unbleached and unbromated.

Peter

Peter,

I remember when you discussed the possibility of a dough doing double duty and being used to make either a room temperature fermented dough or a cold fermented dough, and even maybe a combination of both.

I can understand the higher amount of salt in Luigiís #1 would most likely result in a a stronger gluten structure.  I do recall about your discussion with the manager of Jetís Pizza store, who told you that they make their dough early in the morning and let the dough balls ferment at room temperature, and possibly some going into the cooler for later or the next day.  I do also remember how high the amount of ADY in Jetís dough was.

I am not sure when I will be ready to try one of the formulas you set-forth, but it will probably be next week.  I appreciate you will help me with the calculations for the two kinds of flours.  Which formula do you think I should try?

Norma

Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: chickenparm on September 04, 2011, 08:46:31 PM
Hi Mike,

When you posted:

For a 28 oz can I'd probably use 2 tsp of the red pepper, one Tbsp for each the salt, pepper and oregano, 1.5 Tbsp of the garlic and 3 Tbsp for the parmesan.

I cannot help but think that for 28 oz can,thats seems very heavy on spices.

I know you guys are working on cloning,but wow,that would seem to overpower my taste buds in those amounts.

Let me know if you try it though.If its good I might try it myself,but hard to imagine its not going to lose its tomato taste in the end.
 :)








Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on September 04, 2011, 09:04:24 PM
I have all the ingredients for Luigi's sauce but not in the quantities to measure them all out, especially the amounts of garlic and parmesan cheese, so I have to eyeball them. But it seems that the salt, pepper, oregano are the same amount, the red pepper flakes a tad smaller, the garlic double the amount of the salt, pepper and oregano and the parmesan probably double the amount of the garlic.

For a 28 oz can I'd probably use 2 tsp of the red pepper, one Tbsp for each the salt, pepper and oregano, 1.5 Tbsp of the garlic and 3 Tbsp for the parmesan.

In grams that would be 794 gr for the can of tomatoes, 10 gr red pepper flakes, 15 gr for each, the salt, oregano and pepper, 22.5 gr for the garlic and 45 gr for the parmesan cheese. I'm still not sure about the basil, though. It could be somewhere in the realm of 30-40 gr, perhaps.

Do those quantities make any sense?

Mike,

If I understand your approach, I am not sure it will work since equal amounts of different ingredients by volume do not weigh the same.

Like you, I have some of the ingredients but not all of them in the amounts suggested in the Luigi video. However, I will see what I can come up with based on what I see in the video.

An alternative approach is to estimate the amounts of ingredients by volume, for example, by number of teaspoons or tablespoons, and then use standard conversion data to convert to weights. I usually go to the nutritiondata.self.com website at http://nutritiondata.self.com/ for standard conversion data. I checked the Luigi sauce ingredients against the data available at the nutritiondata.self.com website and found the following conversion data:

Dried oregano, leaves: 1 t. = 1 gram
Salt: 1 t. = 6 grams; 1 T. = 18 grams
Black pepper: 1 t. = 2 grams; 1 T. = 6 grams
Garlic powder: 1 t. = 3 grams; 1 T. = 8 grams
Fresh basil, chopped: 2 T. = 5 grams

For the red pepper flakes, I would use the McCormick number of 1 t. = 3.2 grams. For the grated Parmesan cheese, I would use a basic product like the Kraft grated parmesan cheese, where 2 t. = 5 grams. I would imagine that Luigi does not use an expensive Parmesan cheese and grate it himself. He is more likely to use a commercial product like the Kraft product (foodservice version).

Of course, you can do your own measurements of teaspoons or tablespoons of the above ingredients using your scale and extrapolate based on eyeballing the amount of each ingredient. When you get the total weight for each ingredient as you believe Luigi uses, you will want to divide that number by about 20 to get the amount to use with a 28-ounce can of tomatoes.

I will try to do my own weighings and conversions tomorrow.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on September 04, 2011, 09:07:12 PM
I am not sure when I will be ready to try one of the formulas you set-forth, but it will probably be next week.  I appreciate you will help me with the calculations for the two kinds of flours.  Which formula do you think I should try?

Norma,

I think I would go with Luigi #1, which I believe Mike will also be trying. That might be a good test of the recipe used in both a home setting and a commercial setting. However, you should feel free to try another version if you'd like.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 04, 2011, 09:08:36 PM
Hi Mike,

When you posted:

For a 28 oz can I'd probably use 2 tsp of the red pepper, one Tbsp for each the salt, pepper and oregano, 1.5 Tbsp of the garlic and 3 Tbsp for the parmesan.

I cannot help but think that for 28 oz can,thats seems very heavy on spices.

I know you guys are working on cloning,but wow,that would seem to overpower my taste buds in those amounts.

Let me know if you try it though.If its good I might try it myself,but hard to imagine its not going to lose its tomato taste in the end.
 :)


Bill,

You're right.

After looking at the numbers again I decided to use two 28oz 6 in 1 cans, one pureed down a bit and the other left untouched. I haven't had the chance to update my previous post yet.

Sauce tastes great, though. I'll post the numbers for the sauce a bit later on.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 04, 2011, 09:14:16 PM
Norma,

I think I would go with Luigi #1, which I believe Mike will also be trying. That might be a good test of the recipe used in both a home setting and a commercial setting. However, you should feel free to try another version if you'd like.

Peter

Peter,

That's what will come out of the fridge in about an hour  ;D

Btw, when looking at the video again I zeroed in on the clock. Luigi's made the dough first at 10:25am, then the sauce at 10:50am and Fieri bit into his first slice, the Capone (Meat Lover's) at 12:20pm. The funny thing is that the clock shows 12:10pm when he has a slice of second pie, the Mona Lisa. Oh, and the spinach/ricotta pie was eaten at 12:15pm. That's three pies in a span of ten minutes.

I have serious doubts that they used the same dough they made that morning. That one might have been balled up and went into the cooler.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 04, 2011, 09:27:13 PM
Mike,

If I understand your approach, I am not sure it will work since equal amounts of different ingredients by volume do not weigh the same.

Like you, I have some of the ingredients but not all of them in the amounts suggested in the Luigi video. However, I will see what I can come up with based on what I see in the video.

An alternative approach is to estimate the amounts of ingredients by volume, for example, by number of teaspoons or tablespoons, and then use standard conversion data to convert to weights. I usually go to the nutritiondata.self.com website at http://nutritiondata.self.com/ for standard conversion data. I checked the Luigi sauce ingredients against the data available at the nutritiondata.self.com website and found the following conversion data:

Dried oregano, leaves: 1 t. = 1 gram
Salt: 1 t. = 6 grams; 1 T. = 18 grams
Black pepper: 1 t. = 2 grams; 1 T. = 6 grams
Garlic powder: 1 t. = 3 grams; 1 T. = 8 grams
Fresh basil, chopped: 2 T. = 5 grams

For the red pepper flakes, I would use the McCormick number of 1 t. = 3.2 grams. For the grated Parmesan cheese, I would use a basic product like the Kraft grated parmesan cheese, where 2 t. = 5 grams. I would imagine that Luigi does not use an expensive Parmesan cheese and grate it himself. He is more likely to use a commercial product like the Kraft product (foodservice version).

Of course, you can do your own measurements of teaspoons or tablespoons of the above ingredients using your scale and extrapolate based on eyeballing the amount of each ingredient. When you get the total weight for each ingredient as you believe Luigi uses, you will want to divide that number by about 20 to get the amount to use with a 28-ounce can of tomatoes.

I will try to do my own weighings and conversions tomorrow.

Peter

Peter, I didn't even see your post when I answered Bill.  :-[

What I did initially was to convert the 28 oz can into grams, which came to 794 gr per can. Then I looked at my numbers and thought that they were a bit high for only one can, which Bill also pointed out. So I ran them for two cans and the numbers looked much better, especially when stronger herbs/spices are involved such as the dried oregano, black pepper and the red pepper flakes.

Better safe than sorry since I've butchered a good amount of sauces so far  :)
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 04, 2011, 10:04:30 PM
Mike,

If I understand your approach, I am not sure it will work since equal amounts of different ingredients by volume do not weigh the same.

Like you, I have some of the ingredients but not all of them in the amounts suggested in the Luigi video. However, I will see what I can come up with based on what I see in the video.

An alternative approach is to estimate the amounts of ingredients by volume, for example, by number of teaspoons or tablespoons, and then use standard conversion data to convert to weights. I usually go to the nutritiondata.self.com website at http://nutritiondata.self.com/ for standard conversion data. I checked the Luigi sauce ingredients against the data available at the nutritiondata.self.com website and found the following conversion data:

Dried oregano, leaves: 1 t. = 1 gram
Salt: 1 t. = 6 grams; 1 T. = 18 grams
Black pepper: 1 t. = 2 grams; 1 T. = 6 grams
Garlic powder: 1 t. = 3 grams; 1 T. = 8 grams
Fresh basil, chopped: 2 T. = 5 grams

For the red pepper flakes, I would use the McCormick number of 1 t. = 3.2 grams. For the grated Parmesan cheese, I would use a basic product like the Kraft grated parmesan cheese, where 2 t. = 5 grams. I would imagine that Luigi does not use an expensive Parmesan cheese and grate it himself. He is more likely to use a commercial product like the Kraft product (foodservice version).

Of course, you can do your own measurements of teaspoons or tablespoons of the above ingredients using your scale and extrapolate based on eyeballing the amount of each ingredient. When you get the total weight for each ingredient as you believe Luigi uses, you will want to divide that number by about 20 to get the amount to use with a 28-ounce can of tomatoes.

I will try to do my own weighings and conversions tomorrow.

Peter

Peter,

After looking at your numbers, I will definitely adjust mine with the next batch of sauce I make. Let me know about your findings when you use the measurements you put forth.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on September 04, 2011, 10:11:04 PM
Norma,

I think I would go with Luigi #1, which I believe Mike will also be trying. That might be a good test of the recipe used in both a home setting and a commercial setting. However, you should feel free to try another version if you'd like.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for telling me to try Luigi #1.

Norma

Peter,

That's what will come out of the fridge in about an hour  ;D



Mike,

I look forward to seeing your pie!  :)

If anyone wants me to do any weights for added ingredients for sauce tomorrow, let me know.  I have all the ingredients at market.

Norma

Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 04, 2011, 10:24:40 PM

Mike,

I look forward to seeing your pie!  :)

If anyone wants me to do any weights for added ingredients for sauce tomorrow, let me know.  I have all the ingredients at market.

Norma


Norma,

Oven's heating and I'll be making the spinach/ricotta for my mother. She came by earlier and I told her about the project and she said that it looks like I need a taste tester tonight  :) Very smooth. I might also add some sun dried tomatoes and black olives to it, though.

I think you taking some weight measurements can only benefit the cloning process. Let us know what you'll find. I'm sure Peter will give you adequate weight measurements.

He's much better of converting numbers and taking into account different weights of certain herbs and spices than I am as is shown in his previous post above.

My next thing, once we get the sauce out of the way, is the cheese amount. I used the slo-mo feature again and it appears that Luigi is dumping one of those generic 16oz, supermarket-style mozzarella blocks into his grater. You know those blocks, such as the ones from the Precious brand, for example.

Let's see if I can get a still picture of it...
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 04, 2011, 10:35:08 PM
Some screen shots of the cheese grating...

It's most likely a GENSACO cheese grater. 

http://www.gensaco.com/graters.html

Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on September 04, 2011, 10:52:14 PM
Some screen shots of the cheese grating...

It's most likely a GENSACO cheese grater. 

http://www.gensaco.com/graters.html



Mike,

I wonder if Luigi's uses a Pelican Head to grate his cheese, since he does have a Hobart mixer.  I have a Pelican Head for my Hobart and it does grate cheese fast.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 05, 2011, 12:46:29 AM
Mike,

I wonder if Luigi's uses a Pelican Head to grate his cheese, since he does have a Hobart mixer.  I have a Pelican Head for my Hobart and it does grate cheese fast.

Norma

Norma,

I don't know.

I'm not that familiar with commercial graters. I have an old box grater that I use but it produces fairly large strands of cheese which I like.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 05, 2011, 12:50:41 AM
Okay,

First pics and a short video of the Luigi clone Spinach/Ricotta with some added sun dried tomatoes black olives. The only negative thing was that I had to use the broiler for 30 secs to get some browning going after 7 minutes on the stone. I might adjust the sugar amount or let the flour mature a bit more.

Temp was around 615įF give or take a few.

A video which features my mother can be seen here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q399eej54jI

Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 05, 2011, 01:24:13 AM
Mike,

I wonder if Luigi's uses a Pelican Head to grate his cheese, since he does have a Hobart mixer.  I have a Pelican Head for my Hobart and it does grate cheese fast.

Norma

Norma,

You mean this one?

Can't be the same model, just like the one I posted earlier can't be the same, too. The holding compartment has two slated edges to it. They tilt down a bit...so I don't know what kind of shredder that is.

Maybe someone with pro experience can chime in here and has seen this type of shredder before..
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: scott123 on September 05, 2011, 01:29:30 AM
Norma,

Seriously?? At some point???  :(

You have the biggest advantage with a commercial oven that's capable of baking an 18" pie, that has the right temp and you have the mixer to test Peter's formulas. I'm not saying do a full 50 lb bag of Sir Lancelot but maybe half?  ::)

Please, please, please... do it, so we all can go from there and evaluate your findings!   :)

Mike, while I'm absolutely certain that Norma's foray into reverse engineering Luigi's pizza will prove to be immensely valuable, if you want to compare potential labor, I think it will be a lot more difficult for her to achieve pendleton-like results with KASL (or track down pendleton) then it would be for you to track down the necessary materials to match her bake time.

That 62% hydration dough is Luigi's dough.  There's no doubt in my mind. The last ingredient that you're missing- both for this and for your Avellino's clone is that sacred 4-5 minute bake.

17 x 17 x 1/2" steel plate. Your oven shelf will handle it. Cordierite has almost no porosity, so the lack of porosity with steel will be meaningless. I can show you countless photos of steel baked pizzas with identical bottoms as their cordierite cousins.  4-5 minutes on steel will match Luigi's (and Avellino's) 4-5 minute bake exactly. The pizzas will be identical (and the best you've ever had). You have my word  ;D
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 05, 2011, 01:57:25 AM
Mike, while I'm absolutely certain that Norma's foray into reverse engineering Luigi's pizza will prove to be immensely valuable, if you want to compare potential labor, I think it will be a lot more difficult for her to achieve pendleton-like results with KASL (or track down pendleton) then it would be for you to track down the necessary materials to match her bake time.

That 62% hydration dough is Luigi's dough.  There's no doubt in my mind. The last ingredient that you're missing- both for this and for your Avellino's clone is that sacred 4-5 minute bake.

17 x 17 x 1/2" steel plate. Your oven shelf will handle it. Cordierite has almost no porosity, so the lack of porosity with steel will be meaningless. I can show you countless photos of steel baked pizzas with identical bottoms as their cordierite cousins.  4-5 minutes on steel will match Luigi's (and Avellino's) 4-5 minute bake exactly. The pizzas will be identical (and the best you've ever had). You have my word  ;D

Scotty,

Thanks a bunch for the kind words!

I can't really take credit for it. Peter did all the work and an absolutely incredible job while stewing over film, measuring ingredients, diameters of buckets and coming up with the formulas he did. The only thing I did was change the hydration for one dough :)

Regarding the steel plate, what rack position would you suggest? And wouldn't a steel plate, at my current bake temp, burn the bottom before getting the top done? I've done the steel plate baking before and it resulted 90% of the time in a burned bottom crust.

And would using a steel plate might really mean to lower the temp down to a 525įF - 550įF to get an even bake or, at the very least, involve a temp adjustment?
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: scott123 on September 05, 2011, 02:41:28 AM
Mike, as you increase the conductivity of the hearth with steel, you definitely need to dial back the heat or you'll burn the bottom AND you'll need to increase the heat coming from above so the top bakes faster as well.

A while back I remember you mentioned that you were, on occasion, using the broiler a little.  You're going to want to use the broiler a bit more and position the pizza closer to the broiler so the impact is greater.

For my four minute bakes, I position the stone 6" below the broiling element, which, for me translates into the second shelf from the top.  I turn on the broiler for the last two minutes of the four minute bake. With that position and that amount of broiling, the top finishes at the same time as the bottom.

Summing up:
17 x 17 x 1/2" steel plate
placed 6" from broiler
preheated at 500 for 1 hour (you might need either 475 or 525, but I'd try 500 first)
launch pie, wait two minutes, broiler on
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on September 05, 2011, 07:36:07 AM
Norma,

I don't know.

I'm not that familiar with commercial graters. I have an old box grater that I use but it produces fairly large strands of cheese which I like.

Mike,

These are what Pelican Head cheese graters look like for Hobart mixers. http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p5197.m570.l1313&_nkw=Pelican+head&_sacat=See-All-Categories

I do have a picture somewhere here on the forum of the Pelican Head cheese grater on top of my pizza oven, but don't remember where I posted it.

Edit:  Since I didnít know where I posted a picture of my Pelican Head cheese grater on the forum, I took a few pictures of the Pelican Head yesterday at market.  It can be seen on the pictures when it is hooked on to my 20 qt. Hobart mixer how big the Pelican head is in comparison to my Hobart mixer.  I donít know if Luigiís uses a Pelican Head cheese grater for their cheeses.  Any member can comment if they think Luigiís might be using a Pelican Head cheese grater to grate their cheeses.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on September 05, 2011, 07:47:06 AM
Okay,

First pics and a short video of the Luigi clone Spinach/Ricotta with some added sun dried tomatoes black olives. The only negative thing was that I had to use the broiler for 30 secs to get some browning going after 7 minutes on the stone. I might adjust the sugar amount or let the flour mature a bit more.

Temp was around 615įF give or take a few.

A video which features my mother can be seen here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q399eej54jI



Mike,

Your first clone attempt for Luigiís pizza looks very tasty.  :) How would you describe your Luigiís clone compared to other pies you have made?   You also have a very beautiful mother!  I enjoyed your video.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 05, 2011, 12:14:55 PM
Mike, as you increase the conductivity of the hearth with steel, you definitely need to dial back the heat or you'll burn the bottom AND you'll need to increase the heat coming from above so the top bakes faster as well.

A while back I remember you mentioned that you were, on occasion, using the broiler a little.  You're going to want to use the broiler a bit more and position the pizza closer to the broiler so the impact is greater.

For my four minute bakes, I position the stone 6" below the broiling element, which, for me translates into the second shelf from the top.  I turn on the broiler for the last two minutes of the four minute bake. With that position and that amount of broiling, the top finishes at the same time as the bottom.

Summing up:
17 x 17 x 1/2" steel plate
placed 6" from broiler
preheated at 500 for 1 hour (you might need either 475 or 525, but I'd try 500 first)
launch pie, wait two minutes, broiler on

Scotty,

Thanks a bunch for the info.

I guess next week I will look around for a steel plate. Come to think of it, my pizza guy bakes on steel but uses screens. I asked him why and he said it's somewhat easier and doesn't require cleaning the deck all the time. Interesting point.

Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 05, 2011, 12:20:50 PM
Mike,

Your first clone attempt for Luigiís pizza looks very tasty.  :) How would you describe your Luigiís clone compared to other pies you have made?   You also have a very beautiful mother!  I enjoyed your video.

Norma

Norma,

Thanks for the kind words. My mother is a closeted pizza addict. I could knock on her door and feed her a pie at three in the morning.  ;D  My dad's a bit more reserved when it comes to pizza but once he's got one in front of him, or he sees it, he's also always up for a quick slice.

Regarding the pizza, the flour makes all the difference. It's chewier with a great crunch although it wasn't very audible in the video and thin. The cheese was great, too. The pie looked almost like a original Luigi's from his video.

Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 05, 2011, 01:45:16 PM
Here are the pics from the second pie, Luigi's Capone (Meat Lover's) using the Luigi #1 formula  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg151876.html#msg151876 

I messed up a perfectly good crust by using a) too much of the new cheese and b) making the mistake of adding pesto to it (what the hell was I thinking???)

The cheese has excellent melting capabilities and being used to regular store-bought mozzarella it is definitely a major step up. But it comes with a learning curve and the one thing I've learned so far is that less is definitely more with this cheese. The taste is exceptional, very Grande-like & creamy yet packs a nice subtle punch in terms of saltiness and flavor. It's just the perfect balance, imho. One other thing I noticed was that it didn't oil off as much as the Grande did I used before. That's a plus.

The browning of the crust also lacked a little with this second pie. I might adjust the sugar level a little bit.

On another note, we all have been speculating if Luigi does a room-temp fermentation, overnight cold-temp or perhaps a combo of both. I think I'm going to tackle the Luigi #3 formula, since it has the least amount of yeast and try a 8-hr room-temp today, Starting at 11:00am PST. I'm curious if the dough will handle and turn out differently.

Some pics ...
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 05, 2011, 01:46:14 PM
And the rest
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on September 05, 2011, 05:15:39 PM
Mike,

I took a stab at recreating the seasonings for the Luigi pizza sauce as shown in the video and have set forth the ingredients and quantities below. However, first some comments and suggestions.

In recreating the Luigi seasoning mix, I used my mock-up bowl to weigh the ingredients that are shown in the video as being in small bowls such as those that were shown on the table to the left of the mixer. As noted below with the single asterisk, these are the Greek oregano, the black pepper, the garlic powder and the fresh basil. I did not see any bowls or other containers for the red pepper flakes or the salt, so I did my best to estimate those just by eyeballing them in the sauce container (at 4:12 and 4:16, respectively). What is important to keep in mind about the red pepper flakes is that there is not a lot of it in relation to the amount of tomatoes. For example, if there are four #10 cans of Stanislaus tomatoes in the sauce container in the video, weighing say, 8.5 pounds each, or about 34 pounds total, the scattering of red pepper flakes will have fairly minimal flavor or taste impact. At the 28-ounce tomato can level, it might only be a pinch or two.

There was also one bowl, for the grated Parmesan cheese, that seemed larger than the others in the video, as denoted below by the double asterisks. For example, if you look at the video at about 4:19, you will see that the Parmesan bowl is the only one that Luigi holds by two hands and it also looks large in relation to the size of the sauce container and the other bowls that were used to hold several of the other ingredients. The bowl with the garlic powder also looks large, at 4:18 in the video, but since the bowl of garlic powder is earlier shown on the table I can only assume that it was an odd camera angle or a closer camera shot that made the bowl seem larger.

I also discovered when I was doing my weighings that the weights of ingredients can vary depending on the source. For example, when I weighed oregano from a bottle, which I believe was of the Greek variety, the final value I got was higher than when I weighed dried oregano from my garden. I have what I believe to be a Greek variety of oregano growing in my garden but I always use an Italian (maybe Sicilian) oregano because I prefer it over the Greek variety. What I ended up using was the Greek oregano from the bottle since that seemed to come closest to what Luigi uses and it looks to have the texture and particle size as shown in the video (in the bowl at 4:12 and also at 4:13 on top of the tomatoes). But you should be aware that different dried oregano products can have different weights on a unit volume basis. The same may also apply to the garlic powder.

With respect to the Parmesan cheese, I did not have any on hand so I purchased the cheapest wedge of domestic Parmesan cheese that I could find in the supermarket today. I also checked out the Kraft grated Parmesan cheeses as well as a comparable house brand (a Safeway product). All of the cheese products I looked at, whether grated or not, had the same conversion data, specifically, 2 teaspoons weigh 5 grams. However, the Kraft and similar product have cellulose to minimize caking and also a preservative for flavor retention. The wedge of Parmesan cheese does not have those additives. It is hard to say how much Parmesan cheese is used other than that it looks like there is a fair amount of it by volume. I grated some of my Parmesan cheese into an 8Ē pie tin until the amount looked like what is shown in the video and got 60 grams, as noted below.

I also didnít have any fresh basil on hand and the supermarket I went to didnít have any either. So, I did the next best thing. When I got back home, I went out into my back yard where I have a bountiful crop of weeds growing. I found one weed in particular that had leaves of the same general size, shape and thickness as fresh basil leaves. I gathered several of them, chopped them into pieces of the same size as the chopped basil in the video, put them into my mock-up bowl to look like the chopped basil leaves shown at 4:22 in the video, and then weighed them. As a final step, I compared the weed version with real fresh basil and found that their weight/volume numbers were quite similar. The number I ended up with for the fresh basil is 7 grams. The good thing about fresh basil is that even if you are a bit heavy with it, it doesnít usually hurt anything. By contrast, with the dried oregano, and also with the garlic powder, you have to be careful as not to use too much. As a result, it might be a good idea to add the dried oregano and garlic powder gradually in stages until the desired taste profile is achieved.

With the above as background, here is the seasoning mix I came up with. If you need help converting weights to volumes for a sauce batch based on a 28-ounce can of tomatoes, let me know.  I have shown the weights of ingredients for a sauce batch using a 28-ounce can of tomatoes in parenthesis. If the seasoning mix works out, it should then be possible to come up with a bakerís percent format.

Red pepper flakes: 3 grams (a pinch or two between the thumb and forefinger)
*Greek oregano leaves: 8 grams (0.4 grams)
Salt: 11 grams (0.55 grams)
*Black pepper: 3 grams (0.15 grams)
*Garlic powder: 30 grams (1.5 grams)
**Grated Parmesan cheese: 58 grams (2.9 grams)
*Fresh, chopped basil: 7 grams (0.35 grams)
Total seasoning mix weight = 120 grams (9 grams)
* denotes that the ingredients are in small bowls of same size
** denotes that the bowl seems larger than the other bowls

Remember that the above numbers (the ones not in parentheses) are in relation to four #10 cans of Stanislaus tomatoes. If that assumption is wrong, then the numbers will have to be revised if we are able to get the correct amount of tomatoes. If my numbers are anywhere near correct, then I think that you can see that Luigiís sauce is not particularly highly seasoned.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on September 05, 2011, 05:23:33 PM
When I was at the supermarket today, I recalled that that particular store carried flours in 25-pound bags. I hadn't thought to bring my tape measure along but I decided nonetheless to check out the 25-pound flour bags. I found three different flours in that size. One bag was small and squat whereas the others were larger and thinner. But the large and thinner bags looked larger than I would have expected and led me to believe that the lone bag of flour shown in the Luigi video at 0:42 could be a 25-pound bag after all (as Jet_deck surmises). However, I don't want to hurt myself jumping to conclusions, so I will await a response to my email to Pendleton on the matter of their bag sizes.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 05, 2011, 05:35:40 PM
Mike,

I took a stab at recreating the seasonings for the Luigi pizza sauce as shown in the video and have set forth the ingredients and quantities below. However, first some comments and suggestions.

In recreating the Luigi seasoning mix, I used my mock-up bowl to weigh the ingredients that are shown in the video as being in small bowls such as those that were shown on the table to the left of the mixer. As noted below with the single asterisk, these are the Greek oregano, the black pepper, the garlic powder and the fresh basil. I did not see any bowls or other containers for the red pepper flakes or the salt, so I did my best to estimate those just by eyeballing them in the sauce container (at 4:12 and 4:16, respectively). What is important to keep in mind about the red pepper flakes is that there is not a lot of it in relation to the amount of tomatoes. For example, if there are four #10 cans of Stanislaus tomatoes in the sauce container in the video, weighing say, 8.5 pounds each, or about 34 pounds total, the scattering of red pepper flakes will have fairly minimal flavor or taste impact. At the 28-ounce tomato can level, it might only be a pinch or two.

There was also one bowl, for the grated Parmesan cheese, that seemed larger than the others in the video, as denoted below by the double asterisks. For example, if you look at the video at about 4:19, you will see that the Parmesan bowl is the only one that Luigi holds by two hands and it also looks large in relation to the size of the sauce container and the other bowls that were used to hold several of the other ingredients. The bowl with the garlic powder also looks large, at 4:18 in the video, but since the bowl of garlic powder is earlier shown on the table I can only assume that it was an odd camera angle or a closer camera shot that made the bowl seem larger.

I also discovered when I was doing my weighings that the weights of ingredients can vary depending on the source. For example, when I weighed oregano from a bottle, which I believe was of the Greek variety, the final value I got was higher than when I weighed dried oregano from my garden. I have what I believe to be a Greek variety of oregano growing in my garden but I always use an Italian (maybe Sicilian) oregano because I prefer it over the Greek variety. What I ended up using was the Greek oregano from the bottle since that seemed to come closest to what Luigi uses and it looks to have the texture and particle size as shown in the video (in the bowl at 4:12 and also at 4:13 on top of the tomatoes). But you should be aware that different dried oregano products can have different weights on a unit volume basis. The same may also apply to the garlic powder.

With respect to the Parmesan cheese, I did not have any on hand so I purchased the cheapest wedge of domestic Parmesan cheese that I could find in the supermarket today. I also checked out the Kraft grated Parmesan cheeses as well as a comparable house brand (a Safeway product). All of the cheese products I looked at, whether grated or not, had the same conversion data, specifically, 2 teaspoons weigh 5 grams. However, the Kraft and similar product have cellulose to minimize caking and also a preservative for flavor retention. The wedge of Parmesan cheese does not have those additives. It is hard to say how much Parmesan cheese is used other than that it looks like there is a fair amount of it by volume. I grated some of my Parmesan cheese into an 8Ē pie tin until the amount looked like what is shown in the video and got 60 grams, as noted below.

I also didnít have any fresh basil on hand and the supermarket I went to didnít have any either. So, I did the next best thing. When I got back home, I went out into my back yard where I have a bountiful crop of weeds growing. I found one weed in particular that had leaves of the same general size, shape and thickness as fresh basil leaves. I gathered several of them, chopped them into pieces of the same size as the chopped basil in the video, put them into my mock-up bowl to look like the chopped basil leaves shown at 4:22 in the video, and then weighed them. As a final step, I compared the weed version with real fresh basil and found that their weight/volume numbers were quite similar. The number I ended up with for the fresh basil is 7 grams. The good thing about fresh basil is that even if you are a bit heavy with it, it doesnít usually hurt anything. By contrast, with the dried oregano, and also with the garlic powder, you have to be careful as not to use too much. As a result, it might be a good idea to add the dried oregano and garlic powder gradually in stages until the desired taste profile is achieved.

With the above as background, here is the seasoning mix I came up with. If you need help converting weights to volumes for a sauce batch based on a 28-ounce can of tomatoes, let me know.  I have shown the weights of ingredients for a sauce batch using a 29-ounce can of tomatoes in parenthesis. If the seasoning mix works out, it should then be possible to come up with a bakerís percent format.

Red pepper flakes: 3 grams (a pinch or two between the thumb and forefinger)
*Greek oregano leaves: 8 grams (0.4 grams)
Salt: 11 grams (0.55 grams)
*Black pepper: 3 grams (0.15 grams)
*Garlic powder: 30 grams (1.5 grams)
**Grated Parmesan cheese: 58 grams (2.9 grams)
*Fresh, chopped basil: 7 grams (0.35 grams)
Total seasoning mix weight = 120 grams (9 grams)
* denotes that the ingredients are in small bowls of same size
** denotes that the bowl seems larger than the other bowls

Remember that the above numbers (the ones not in parentheses) are in relation to four #10 cans of Stanislaus tomatoes. If that assumption is wrong, then the numbers will have to be revised if we are able to get the correct amount of tomatoes. If my numbers are anywhere near correct, then I think that you can see that Luigiís sauce is not particularly highly seasoned.

Peter


Peter,

Thanks for measuring the quantities for the sauce!

I have a feeling that my initial numbers, as Bill (chickenparm) also noticed, are completely off. The sauce has had a day to rest and when I just tasted it, it was a bit too heavy on the garlic amount compared to yesterday.

The overall flavor isn't bad but it's not an evenly balanced sauce with little hints of flavor here and there from the different ingredients. In other words, it's back to the drawing board and give your numbers, which I believe are probably "on point" to quote Guy Fieri, a shot.

A Baker's Percent version of the Luigi sauce clone would be invaluable, imho.  :chef:

If I am not mistaken, this is probably the first thread where a pizza has been cloned from top to bottom. If there are others I must have missed them. Anyway, I'll post my results/finding/impressions with my next batch of sauce.

Thanks again, Peter!
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on September 05, 2011, 05:56:22 PM
A Baker's Percent version of the Luigi sauce clone would be invaluable, imho.  :chef:

If I am not mistaken, this is probably the first thread where a pizza has been cloned from top to bottom. If there are others I must have missed them. Anyway, I'll post my results/finding/impressions with my next batch of sauce.

Mike,

I don't mind coming up with a baker's percent version but I'd first like to see if the above scaled-down formulation works. For example, you might find that the sauce is improved by increasing or decreasing the amounts of certain ingredients, especially those that I eyeballed rather than using the bowl mock-up (even though I weighed what I eyeballed). If you do make changes, you might note what they are and the extent of the changes you made so that they can be used to revise the formulation.

As far as complete clones go, I would say that the Papa John's reverse engineering and clone threads at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.0.html and http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6633.0.html are top to bottom reverse engineering and clone achievements. I couldn't find the specific flour that PJ uses but only because it is a product made exclusively for PJs.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 05, 2011, 06:56:39 PM
Mike,

I don't mind coming up with a baker's percent version but I'd first like to see if the above scaled-down formulation works. For example, you might find that the sauce is improved by increasing or decreasing the amounts of certain ingredients, especially those that I eyeballed rather than using the bowl mock-up (even though I weighed what I eyeballed). If you do make changes, you might note what they are and the extent of the changes you made so that they can be used to revise the formulation.

As far as complete clones go, I would say that the Papa John's reverse engineering and clone threads at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.0.html and http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6633.0.html are top to bottom reverse engineering and clone achievements. I couldn't find the specific flour that PJ uses but only because it is a product made exclusively for PJs.

Peter

Peter,

I will record every ingredient that goes in and jot down the numbers.

Forgot about the PJ clone!
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: chickenparm on September 05, 2011, 09:32:57 PM
Mike,
Nice job on those pies! They look GREAT! Making me all Hungry now and etc!!
 :pizza:

Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 05, 2011, 09:42:42 PM
Mike,
Nice job on those pies! They look GREAT! Making me all Hungry now and etc!!
 :pizza:



Bill,

Thank you!

Given the fact that Peter did most of the work, once again!, I can only take credit for whipping the formula together and baking it  ;D

But the second pie was messed up by yours truly. Too much cheese and pesto (wtf, pesto??). Btw, have you ever seen a 67-yo German guy eating a NY-style pie like a Pro? Take a look...

Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on September 06, 2011, 06:03:41 AM
Mike, while I'm absolutely certain that Norma's foray into reverse engineering Luigi's pizza will prove to be immensely valuable, if you want to compare potential labor, I think it will be a lot more difficult for her to achieve pendleton-like results with KASL (or track down pendleton) then it would be for you to track down the necessary materials to match her bake time.


Scott,

If you think if will be difficult for me to achieve good results, when trying to make a Luigiís clone, without using Pendleton flour, maybe I wonít even try.  I know I donít have access to Pendleton Power Flour, but I did email them last week, about where to obtain the Power flour.  I never heard back from them, and had even left a message on their contact pages, and also my phone numbers in a phone call.  If you think using KASL or another flour with KASL canít give me comparable results, there is no use in trying.  I will wait and see if I ever hear back from Pendleton flour, before I try to give Luigiís clone a go.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on September 06, 2011, 09:44:39 AM
Mike,

Yesterday I went to the yelp website and searched the reviews of Pizzeria Luigi to see if there was anything in them that we do not already know. I did not read the reviews themselves because there are over 600 of them. I only used the search feature at the yelp site. Typically, sites like yelp do not reveal much in the way of operational data, but rather mostly likes and dislikes, whether it is the food, the service, the parking, the cash only policy, or the cleanliness of the place. I looked for words like Stanislaus, Saputo, Polly-O, Pendleton, Power, salty, oregano, Parmesan, and so on. I saw one complaint that there was too much oregano in the sauce but that was about it. However, I decided to search the reviews with the word "sweet" to see what that would turn up even though it is a general term that can mean different things to different people. I was particularly interested in any comments about sweetness in the sauce or the crust. I found a couple of posts that noted a slight sweetness in the crust. In the video, Luigi says that he only uses a small amount of sugar but I suppose that he might have used more than I estimated. Hence, one might consider trying a higher amount sometime to see if it makes a difference. Maybe 1%, which is not high per se for a pizza dough and usually is not readily detectable on the palate. It might also be that the Pendleton Power flour has a nice wheaty taste with a bit of sweetness. There is no way to know.

It also wasn't entirely clear how much you liked the Luigi clone pizzas you made. When you watch the Luigi video over and over again with all of the laudatory comments from both Guy and the diners who gushed over Luigi's pizza, it is easy to have expectations that are quite high, maybe too high. For instance, you don't hear remarks on the video that provide a balanced account, like "the Luigi pizzas suck", or "What's the big deal about Luigi's pizzas?" or "Luigi's pizzas can't hold a candle to Bronx's pizzas". All DDD segments seem to be very laudatory and upbeat. Also, unless you have had a Luigi pizza before, there is no frame of reference to compare the ones you make with those made at Luigi's place. But, that said, Luigi clearly has a lot of fans of his pizza, with mostly 4 and 5 star ratings.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: scott123 on September 06, 2011, 10:01:43 AM
Scott,

If you think if will be difficult for me to achieve good results, when trying to make a Luigiís clone, without using Pendleton flour, maybe I wonít even try.  I know I donít have access to Pendleton Power Flour, but I did email them last week, about where to obtain the Power flour.  I never heard back from them, and had even left a message on their contact pages, and also my phone numbers in a phone call.  If you think using KASL or another flour with KASL canít give me comparable results, there is no use in trying.  I will wait and see if I ever hear back from Pendleton flour, before I try to give Luigiís clone a go.

Norma

Norma, it's all relative  ;D When comparing Mike's potential time investment in finding steel plate to your potential time investment, I'm going under the assumption that finding steel plate should be a walk in the park, so, in that sense, I wouldn't necessarily consider your KASL substitution/quest for Pendleton to be difficult, per say, just a little more difficult than finding steel plate.

That being said, I've always been a fairly large proponent of the idea that American flours with similar protein quantities are generally interchangeable.  Looking at the protein of Pendleton and comparing it to other flours with a similar amount of protein, it really should be in the 59% absorption value realm.  Even though the absorption value doesn't appear to be quite as high as 65%, an absorption value of 62% kind of challenges my premise.  13.5% protein power flour actually may not produce the same results as another 13.5% flour.

I have to admit, when I watch the video of Luigis and I take a look at Mike's dough balls, the Pendleton flour does strike me as being a bit special.  I don't think matching it is a matter of combining KASL and AP to reach a 13.5% protein equivalent, so you will have to experiment.  You've worked with quite a few flours- probably more than the bulk of the members on the forum, so if anyone can come up with a sub for Pendleton, it would be you. I think, though, out of contacting Pendleton and obtaining a distributor vs. tweaking KASL, I think contacting Pendleton is the easier route.  I'm not sure why they're so slow in returning your call, but I think they will get back to you eventually.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on September 06, 2011, 10:41:38 AM
scott123,

I agree with you that it is sometimes hard to find flours of other millers that have comparable numbers. I usually look at specs for protein content and other items like ash content, degree of malting, etc. Most millers in the U.S. don't list rated absorption values, although they will usually tell you if you inquire, so you are otherwise left to coming up with the best numbers under the circumstances and doing some experimentation, including using a lower hydration as both of us mentioned. Norma has the advantage of having access to flours that home pizza makers usually do not, and she also has the skills to know what to do with flours to achieve the desired results, as you noted. She also has the capability to make 18" pizzas in her deck oven. Any good results that she might achieve using King Arthur flours would be of benefit to our members who use such flours, even though the end product might not be a true clone of the Luigi pizza.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 06, 2011, 12:16:30 PM
Mike,

Yesterday I went to the yelp website and searched the reviews of Pizzeria Luigi to see if there was anything in them that we do not already know. I did not read the reviews themselves because there are over 600 of them. I only used the search feature at the yelp site. Typically, sites like yelp do not reveal much in the way of operational data, but rather mostly likes and dislikes, whether it is the food, the service, the parking, the cash only policy, or the cleanliness of the place. I looked for words like Stanislaus, Saputo, Polly-O, Pendleton, Power, salty, oregano, Parmesan, and so on. I saw one complaint that there was too much oregano in the sauce but that was about it. However, I decided to search the reviews with the word "sweet" to see what that would turn up even though it is a general term that can mean different things to different people. I was particularly interested in any comments about sweetness in the sauce or the crust. I found a couple of posts that noted a slight sweetness in the crust. In the video, Luigi says that he only uses a small amount of sugar but I suppose that he might have used more than I estimated. Hence, one might consider trying a higher amount sometime to see if it makes a difference. Maybe 1%, which is not high per se for a pizza dough and usually is not readily detectable on the palate. It might also be that the Pendleton Power flour has a nice wheaty taste with a bit of sweetness. There is no way to know.

It also wasn't entirely clear how much you liked the Luigi clone pizzas you made. When you watch the Luigi video over and over again with all of the laudatory comments from both Guy and the diners who gushed over Luigi's pizza, it is easy to have expectations that are quite high, maybe too high. For instance, you don't hear remarks on the video that provide a balanced account, like "the Luigi pizzas suck", or "What's the big deal about Luigi's pizzas?" or "Luigi's pizzas can't hold a candle to Bronx's pizzas". All DDD segments seem to be very laudatory and upbeat. Also, unless you have had a Luigi pizza before, there is no frame of reference to compare the ones you make with those made at Luigi's place. But, that said, Luigi clearly has a lot of fans of his pizza, with mostly 4 and 5 star ratings.

Peter

Peter,

I have also searched the reviews on Yelp to see if there was one that's a bit more thorough instead of the usual ones, but came up with nothing of substance. My guess is, without ever having eaten a slice of Luigi's that it is somewhere in the realm of Avellino's but I could be wrong. What I noticed about those two crusts, though, and I don't know if that really matters or not, was that both crusts, the Avellino one I had recently and Fieri's slice in the video both cracked in the center when folded. Now could that mean a low hydration, no oil or both?

Regarding the sugar, I have always thought that the amount shown in the video was a bit higher and you might be right with your 1% assessment. I'll make adjustments with my next batch and see how that goes.

I don't Fieri would show people on his show who dislike the featured food although that would be balanced reporting. However, Luigi's took off after the show aired and apparently the new folks who tried his pizza were impressed. My expectations weren't sky high, it was more about making a good NY-style pie for me and Luigi's struck me as a genuine attempt from him. But I don't think the Food Network would feature a joint that doesn't produce. I'm sure they're scouting the places before they put them on.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 06, 2011, 12:57:16 PM
...it was more about making a good NY-style pie for me and Luigi's struck me as a genuine attempt from him.

Let me rephrase that since it comes a cross as a bit selfish:

For me, it was about making a good NY-style pie and Luigi's struck me as a genuine attempt from him.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on September 06, 2011, 02:17:22 PM
What I noticed about those two crusts, though, and I don't know if that really matters or not, was that both crusts, the Avellino one I had recently and Fieri's slice in the video both cracked in the center when folded. Now could that mean a low hydration, no oil or both?

Mike,

I think it was a combination of a very thin crust, high oven heat and no oil. Most thin crust NY pizza doughs contain some oil.

When I was reviewing the yelp posts I found through my searches, I saw several instances where people complained that the Luigi crust was too crispy, almost cracker-like. One member even commented that the window of Pizzeria Luigi says New York "style" pies, which apparently cuts Luigi some slack for not exactly replicating a NY thin crust street pizza as would be obtained in NYC.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 06, 2011, 02:24:23 PM
Mike,

I think it was a combination of a very thin crust, high oven heat and no oil. Most thin crust NY pizza doughs contain some oil.

When I was reviewing the yelp posts I found through my searches, I saw several instances where people complained that the Luigi crust was too crispy, almost cracker-like. One member even commented that the window of Pizzeria Luigi says New York "style" pies, which apparently cuts Luigi some slack for not exactly replicating a NY thin crust street pizza as would be obtained in NYC.

Peter

Peter,

That makes sense.

And for what it's worth, the room-temp dough (Luigi #3) I tested yesterday was sub-par compared to the previous cold-rise dough (Luigi #2). I didn't even bother to take some pics. I'll test both formulas (Luigi #2 & 3), using a cold-rise tomorrow, since I'm off work.

Here's a slice which shows the thinness and crispness very well. That's also a good amount of cheese on there.

http://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/ieatOFaTeDqXEV01_GT5_Q?select=wNw3vnBveZSUOfrSj_Uo0Q
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on September 06, 2011, 03:56:25 PM
And for what it's worth, the room-temp dough (Luigi #3) I tested yesterday was sub-par compared to the previous cold-rise dough (Luigi #2). I didn't even bother to take some pics. I'll test both formulas (Luigi #2 & 3), using a cold-rise tomorrow, since I'm off work.

Mike,

How many hours did you ferment the Luigi #3 dough at room temperature, and what was that temperature?

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 06, 2011, 04:47:42 PM
Mike,

How many hours did you ferment the Luigi #3 dough at room temperature, and what was that temperature?

Peter

Peter,

I fermented the Luigi #3 for 8 hours on my kitchen counter. The temp fluctuated a bit, ranging from 60įF in the morning to 70įF in the afternoon. It was a bit chilly here in the morning due to the fog that we always get this time of year.

On another note, I just got back from my pizza guy to report on the cheese and flour he ordered for me on Friday. Here's a golden opportunity to test the Luigi dough clone - we'd have to pick one out of the three - in his gas, steel deck Baker's Pride oven, which he runs between 525įF - 550įF.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on September 06, 2011, 05:33:10 PM
Mike,

Pizzeria Luigi is open for business at 10:30AM each day and serves pizzas until late in the evening. If we knew when his dough is made and if we assume that he cold ferments, which appears to be the case (24 hours according to Gene/Jet_deck), then I think you could go with any one of Luigi #1, #2 or #3 because the ADY/IDY levels for those recipes should work for a one day cold ferment. That means that in Pizzeria Luigi a worker could make the dough early each morning, cold ferment it for 24 hours, and allow for a couple of hours to warm up to be ready to use at 10:30AM (on the next day). The dough balls would be removed from the cooler based on order patterns.

Given a choice, I think I would pick Luigi #1 on the assumption that it was Luigi #1 that was perhaps the closest to the dough used in the video, and also because of the higher salt level. In your case, you could shift your dough preparation time to coincide with the time that you would bake the pizza in your pizza friend's deck oven.

There is also the possibility that Luigi changed things after the video was made. We just don't know. I would think that it would be more practical to make the dough toward the end of the day, maybe after final service, so that the dough balls can ferment overnight when no one is going into the cooler. With Luigi #1, I think that you could use this approach yet have dough balls ready for use the next morning while holding the rest of the dough balls in the cooler pending use throughout the day. That means that the later pizzas are likely to be better than the early ones. So, making dough balls at, say, around 10:30PM, the final dough balls might run out at around 10:30PM the next day. If Luigi's volume is very high, then a regimen could be established to make multiple dough batches that can accommodate the anticipated customer demand.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 06, 2011, 05:56:53 PM
Mike,

Pizzeria Luigi is open for business at 10:30AM each day and serves pizzas until late in the evening. If we knew when his dough is made and if we assume that he cold ferments, which appears to be the case (24 hours according to Gene/Jet_deck), then I think you could go with any one of Luigi #1, #2 or #3 because the ADY/IDY levels for those recipes should work for a one day cold ferment. That means that in Pizzeria Luigi a worker could make the dough early each morning, cold ferment it for 24 hours, and allow for a couple of hours to warm up to be ready to use at 10:30AM (on the next day). The dough balls would be removed from the cooler based on order patterns.

Given a choice, I think I would pick Luigi #1 on the assumption that it was Luigi #1 that was perhaps the closest to the dough used in the video, and also because of the higher salt level. In your case, you could shift your dough preparation time to coincide with the time that you would bake the pizza in your pizza friend's deck oven.

There is also the possibility that Luigi changed things after the video was made. We just don't know. I would think that it would be more practical to make the dough toward the end of the day, maybe after final service, so that the dough balls can ferment overnight when no one is going into the cooler. With Luigi #1, I think that you could use this approach yet have dough balls ready for use the next morning while holding the rest of the dough balls in the cooler pending use throughout the day. That means that the later pizzas are likely to be better than the early ones. So, making dough balls at, say, around 10:30PM, the final dough balls might run out at around 10:30PM the next day. If Luigi's volume is very high, then a regimen could be established to make multiple dough batches that can accommodate the anticipated customer demand.

Peter


Peter,

That was my train of thought also, regarding making the dough the night/evening before and let it cold ferment overnight.

I was also going for the Luigi #1 but I have not yet gotten around to testing the other two, Luigi #2 & 3, as a cold overnight ferment. So I might do that first before heading over the Golden Gate, dough in a cooling container, and have the pizza guy bake one of them.

I think you hit Luigi's dough management nail right on the head unless he's forced to make another batch during the day. That might explain why some of the slices or crusts appear paler than others in the pictures I have seen so far. Or it could be that his oven lost a bit of steam during busy times. But that's just speculation on my end here. Luc & Annie from Marcello's told me once that they make an average of 400 lbs of dough a day but they are also on a very busy street here in SF.

My pizza guy runs about 100 lbs a day and up to 200 lbs on Friday's & Saturday's when the drinking crowds hit his joint from the nearby bars, and there are plenty of them in a fairly small radius around our store and his shop.

Quick question...would I have to adjust the hydration level for the pro oven or just leave it as is?
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on September 06, 2011, 06:09:54 PM
Quick question...would I have to adjust the hydration level for the pro oven or just leave it as is?

Mike,

That is up to you. Ideally, you would want your dough to look and handle like the dough balls shown in the video as they were being formed by Guy and Luigi. Since you have tried 65% hydration and 62% hydration, you might already have a feel of which way to go on the hydration.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 06, 2011, 06:31:44 PM
Mike,

That is up to you. Ideally, you would want your dough to look and handle like the dough balls shown in the video as they were being formed by Guy and Luigi. Since you have tried 65% hydration and 62% hydration, you might already have a feel of which way to go on the hydration.

Peter

I'm thinking taking the golden middle...63% and leaving the rest of the values unchanged. 62% has so far been the better choice as far as the dough handling goes. But the outcome of the 65% hydration one wasn't bad, either. The dough handled beautifully after its initial fermentation.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Jet_deck on September 06, 2011, 06:49:25 PM
I just wanted to run some numbers past you luigi cloners at the .02 level.  Inside seating looks very limited I say 35 tops.  There is room for roughly 15 pizzas in the display case.

It takes everyone 1 hour to eat, they are open 11 hours.  Half the customers order slices, the others share whole pizzas at the rate of 1 pizza for 4 people.  Ive got 385 customers which is 192 slices and 192/4 = 48 whole pizzas.  192 slices is 24 whole pizzas.  Grand total is 72 pizzas.   We have 13 dough boxes x 6 dough ballls= 78 whole p izzas, could that be right?
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: RoadPizza on September 06, 2011, 07:04:53 PM
I just wanted to run some numbers past you luigi cloners at the .02 level.  Inside seating looks very limited I say 35 tops.  There is room for roughly 15 pizzas in the display case.

It takes everyone 1 hour to eat, they are open 11 hours.  Half the customers order slices, the others share whole pizzas at the rate of 1 pizza for 4 people.  Ive got 385 customers which is 192 slices and 192/4 = 48 whole pizzas.  192 slices is 24 whole pizzas.  Grand total is 72 pizzas.   We have 13 dough boxes x 6 dough ballls= 78 whole p izzas, could that be right?

I would think that he would do very well in the take-out business, so you'd need to factor that in, too.  He probably won't be busy all 11 hours, BUT he should more than make up for it with a good lunch and dinner rush, when he would end up serving most of his customers.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 06, 2011, 07:12:12 PM
I would think that he would do very well in the take-out business, so you'd need to factor that in, too.  He probably won't be busy all 11 hours, BUT he should more than make up for it with a good lunch and dinner rush, when he would end up serving most of his customers.
I just wanted to run some numbers past you luigi cloners at the .02 level.  Inside seating looks very limited I say 35 tops.  There is room for roughly 15 pizzas in the display case.

It takes everyone 1 hour to eat, they are open 11 hours.  Half the customers order slices, the others share whole pizzas at the rate of 1 pizza for 4 people.  Ive got 385 customers which is 192 slices and 192/4 = 48 whole pizzas.  192 slices is 24 whole pizzas.  Grand total is 72 pizzas.   We have 13 dough boxes x 6 dough ballls= 78 whole p izzas, could that be right?

Luigi's also does delivery. That's another number to factor in.

But given all the pics I have seen so far, both locations are doing pretty well and people on Yelp are reporting that there's a constant line, with a few exception around Mid-day.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Jet_deck on September 06, 2011, 09:08:46 PM
Luigi's also does delivery. That's another number to factor in.


I was trying to see if the 13 dough boxes were enough for a full day, a half-day, or just a few hours service.  I still don't know what to think, exactly.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 06, 2011, 11:14:42 PM
I was trying to see if the 13 dough boxes were enough for a full day, a half-day, or just a few hours service.  I still don't know what to think, exactly.

JD,

I don't think 78 pizzas are enough for one day. His business skyrocketed after the DDD show and has been at full speed ever since, it seems.

One of the local NY-style pizza shops here, which is on an extremely busy street makes about 400 lbs of dough a day. And they offer more than just 18" pies, slices and Sicilian pizza. They have pies sizes from small to medium to large and x-tra large.

But you might be onto something, especially that Luigi moved the same oven shown in the video to his new location and installed a bigger one in his original location. So that means that business has definitely increased after the video and he may use more dough boxes today compared to back then.

It's hard to figure out.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Jet_deck on September 07, 2011, 12:06:58 AM
JD,

I don't think 78 pizzas are enough for one day. His business skyrocketed after the DDD show and has been at full speed ever since, it seems.


Can we then agree/assume that 13 dough boxes is a very rough estimate for dough made at the same time?  In example: one fifty pound bag of flour (two 25# batches) or two fifty pound bags (four 25# batches) ?

I am just thinking of the batch size that he is comfortable with making.  I think his testosterone level peaked the day of the video shoot.  I am not convinced that the dough that he showed being made is the actual one that they dumped out on the table.  Just my .02
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on September 07, 2011, 10:01:38 AM
I am not convinced that the dough that he showed being made is the actual one that they dumped out on the table.

Gene,

That is what I thought as well, however I couldn't tell if it was the camera angle shot that made the dough batch look bigger than what was shown in the mixer bowl that was carried to the table. During a seven-hour period, many things could have been done, including making a regular batch of dough using 50 pounds of flour as well as the batch for the photo shoot. I still don't know what model and size of mixer Luigi uses in the video, but there are both 60-quart and 80-quart Hobart mixers that can handle 50 pounds of flour.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on September 07, 2011, 01:20:32 PM
I really donít think this will help, but if someone is willing to invest the time, the Hobart mixer used in Luigiís video might be able to be found.  I had looked at both 60 qt. and 80 qt. Hobart mixers on Ebay and had seen some that looked like Luigiís mixer, shown in the video, both in 60 and 80 qts.  I tried to see what size they might be, in relation to what size Luigi and Guy are, but couldnít find any sizes for the mixers.  I then called the Hobart Corporation, Inc. http://www.hobartcorp.com/
and told the customer service lady I was interested in some Hobart mixers on Ebay and wonder what the sizes were of the Hobart mixers, in height, width, and other buttons and things I saw on Ebay.  She could look up specs for any Hobart mixers if I gave her the model numbers found on Ebay.  She said for any Hobart mixers I would be interested in, I could register on the login-in page and then would be able to look at specs for any Hobart mixers, under products, then resource center, then specs.  I had thought there were differences in the height of some 60 and 80 qt. Hobart mixers, but that doesnít seem to be.  Maybe the exact Hobart mixer in the video wonít ever be found.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on September 07, 2011, 02:09:20 PM
Norma,

I pretty much went down the same path except that I didn't call Hobart and I chose not to register to see the manuals or specs for their older models. At one time, Hobart used to provide a link to a chart of their mixers, including some of the older models, but they took that link down. Nonetheless, as I noted in Reply 122 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg151628.html#msg151628, I was able to identify a couple of possible candidates along with the specs. The problem in trying to narrow the search down is that there are so many different models of Hobart mixers out there, with many versions, even under the same mixer designation, and there appears to be units that look quite old (Luigi's mixer looks younger than many I saw). As it turns out, a P-660 Hobart mixer, with a 60-quart mixer bowl, can actually hold more dough in some cases (based on the absorption ratios) than a mixer with an 80-quart bowl, such as the L-800 mixer, apparently because the P-660 has a more powerful motor.

It would be nice to be able to put the mixer model issue to rest but even if we know the answer it may not tell us exactly what happened in the video. As Gene and I speculate, they could have made two different dough batches, and using either of the above models of mixers or another model comparable to those should have been able to handle whatever amount of flour was used to make the dough shown in the video.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 07, 2011, 02:17:00 PM
Can we then agree/assume that 13 dough boxes is a very rough estimate for dough made at the same time?  In example: one fifty pound bag of flour (two 25# batches) or two fifty pound bags (four 25# batches) ?

I am just thinking of the batch size that he is comfortable with making.  I think his testosterone level peaked the day of the video shoot.  I am not convinced that the dough that he showed being made is the actual one that they dumped out on the table.  Just my .02

JD,

13 boxes is a rough estimate, I agree.

We all need to keep in mind all this happened before Fieri and his crew showed up. His business went through the roof afterwards. I am pretty certain he was forced to change things to meet the demand. It would be interesting to see what his numbers are today vs. 2008.

I could imagine that 13 dough boxes today won't get him very far :)

Peter & Norma,

What about these two. They're 60 qt ones. I also attached two Luigi pics for comparison. Btw, has anyone noticed the setting of the speed control switch? It's all the way to the right; would that be Speed 1 or 4?

Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on September 07, 2011, 02:34:22 PM
Mike,

The photo below is of a L800 Hobart mixer with an 80-quart bowl. Another difference between the P-660 mixer and the L800 mixer is that the L800 mixer has four speeds whereas the P-660 mixer has two speeds. I had already looked at the mixer frames in the video but could not make out whether the mixer has two speeds or four speeds. As noted previously, the P-660 and the L800 are of the same height. Do you have the model numbers for the two 60-quart mixers that you show in the photos?

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 07, 2011, 02:36:33 PM
Mike,

The photo below is of a L800 Hobart mixer with an 80-quart bowl. Another difference between the P-660 mixer and the L800 mixer is that the L800 mixer has four speeds whereas the P-660 mixer has two speeds. I had already looked at the mixer frames in the video but could not make out whether the mixer has two speeds or four speeds. As noted previously, the P-660 and the L800 are of the same height. Do you have the model numbers for the two 60-quart mixers that you show in the photos?

Peter

Peter,

Let me see if I can capture some close-up shots of the speed control on Luigi's Hobart.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 07, 2011, 02:54:10 PM
Close ups.

Pic #1 shows the black knob on the speed control facing the camera. The second pic, I'm not sure but the last two show that the black knob is facing away from the camera, all the way over to the right.

Me thinks he might start on Speed 1 and switches the knob later on during the kneading.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on September 07, 2011, 07:52:28 PM
To demonstrate how the Luigi video was put together with scenes out of sequence, I went back and looked at the times on the clock on the wall and what events were taking place at that time. This is what I got when I rearranged things, using the clock times:

10:25AM, 10:30AM: The dough is taken out of the bowl, shaped and ends with Guy asking about the proofing before using the dough to make pizzas.

10:43AM, 10:47AM, 10:50AM: Sauce is started, and ingredients are added, including adding the black pepper and basil and completing the final stir of the sauce.

12:10PM: Guy eats a slice of Mona Lisa pizza. Even the sequence of eating the Mona Lisa slice is a bit out of order, as noted by the clock times for that segment.

12:15PM: Guy eats a slice of the sauceless spinach, ricotta and mozzarella cheese pizza.

12:20PM: Guy eats a slice of the Capone pizza.

2:30PM: I am not entirely certain about the time on the clock but it looks to be 2:30PM, where Guy ends his visit by shaking Luigiís hand and hugging him. If the time is correct, and the shoot took place over a seven-hour period, that would have placed the start time at around 7:30AM.

For comparison purposes, in the video the sequence of the action is dough, Capone, Mona Lisa, sauce, the sauceless spinach, ricotta and mozzarella cheese pizza, and the fond goodbye.

As mentioned a while back at Replies 254 and 255 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg152261.html#msg152261), it is possible that the dough coming out of the mixer bowl and being handled in the video starting at 10:25AM-10:30AM was not the same dough as was shown being made in the video with the water, flour, yeast, sugar and salt. If so, the dough shown at 10:25AM-10:30AM might be a standard dough that is allowed to cold ferment for 24 hours, which is a possibility that was mentioned in Reply 245 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg152206.html#msg152206.

On the matter of the mixer shown in the Luigi video, I compared the dimensions for the P-660 mixer and the L800 mixer and they are so close that I cannot detect the differences in the video. The main difference is the size of mixer bowl, with the 80-quart bowl being lower than the 60-quart bowl when put into place in their respective mixers. That difference canít be seen in the video because of the camera angles used in the segments where the mixer is shown.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 07, 2011, 08:29:16 PM
To demonstrate how the Luigi video was put together with scenes out of sequence, I went back and looked at the times on the clock on the wall and what events were taking place at that time. This is what I got when I rearranged things, using the clock times:

10:25AM, 10:30AM: The dough is taken out of the bowl, shaped and ends with Guy asking about the proofing before using the dough to make pizzas.

10:43AM, 10:47AM, 10:50AM: Sauce is started, and ingredients are added, including adding the black pepper and basil and completing the final stir of the sauce.

12:10PM: Guy eats a slice of Mona Lisa pizza. Even the sequence of eating the Mona Lisa slice is a bit out of order, as noted by the clock times for that segment.

12:15PM: Guy eats a slice of the sauceless spinach, ricotta and mozzarella cheese pizza.

12:20PM: Guy eats a slice of the Capone pizza.

2:30PM: I am not entirely certain about the time on the clock but it looks to be 2:30PM, where Guy ends his visit by shaking Luigiís hand and hugging him. If the time is correct, and the shoot took place over a seven-hour period, that would have placed the start time at around 7:30AM.

For comparison purposes, in the video the sequence of the action is dough, Capone, Mona Lisa, sauce, the sauceless spinach, ricotta and mozzarella cheese pizza, and the fond goodbye.

As mentioned a while back at Replies 254 and 255 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg152261.html#msg152261), it is possible that the dough coming out of the mixer bowl and being handled in the video starting at 10:25AM-10:30AM was not the same dough as was shown being made in the video with the water, flour, yeast, sugar and salt. If so, the dough shown at 10:25AM-10:30AM might be a standard dough that is allowed to cold ferment for 24 hours, which is a possibility that was mentioned in Reply 245 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg152206.html#msg152206.

On the matter of the mixer shown in the Luigi video, I compared the dimensions for the P-660 mixer and the L800 mixer and they are so close that I cannot detect the differences in the video. The main difference is the size of mixer bowl, with the 80-quart bowl being lower than the 60-quart bowl when put into place in their respective mixers. That difference canít be seen in the video because of the camera angles used in the segments where the mixer is shown.

Peter


Peter,

We have the same timeline:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg152006.html#msg152006

Let's just say he does actually use a 65% hydration dough, and given the experience I made with said 65% hydration and the Pendleton flour, than the dough you see being balled up could be a 24 hr ferment because the 65% Pendleton dough handled very nicely after that time span.

And like I said before, the dough that was made at 10:25am was probably just for demonstration purposes, was balled up and went into the cooler.

So where does that leave us? One thing is sure...when the video was edited it's quite possible the best takes have been stitched together regardless of the actual time line or work progress.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on September 07, 2011, 09:00:19 PM
Mike,

Somehow I missed your post. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. At least we both got the timeline right.

I never did think that the slices that Guy had were made with the dough that was prepared as shown in the video. It wouldn't have had enough fermentation time to produce slices that Guy could gush over, as he does in the video. I don't think he was faking it.

I think that the cold fermentation route is perhaps the way to go, much as you have concluded. It's up to you, and others, who have access to the Pendleton Power flour to decide whether to use 65% hydration, especially if the 24-hour cold fermentation results in dough balls that can be easily opened up and formed into skins without sticking to anything. Earlier today, I followed up my email to Pendleton on the bag size information with a voicemail, so if they respond maybe we can get a better feel for what size bag of flour might have been used to make the dough in the video. However, it is possible that the dimensions of the 25-pound, 30-pound and 32-pound bags of Power flour are not different enough to be able to tell from afar which might have been used in the video. If Luigi was always committed to using unbleached flour, then that would rule out the 30-pound bag of flour since that flour is bleached.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 07, 2011, 09:08:39 PM
Mike,

Somehow I missed your post. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. At least we both got the timeline right.

I never did think that the slices that Guy had were made with the dough that was prepared as shown in the video. It wouldn't have had enough fermentation time to produce slices that Guy could gush over, as he does in the video. I don't think he was faking it.

I think that the cold fermentation route is perhaps the way to go, much as you have concluded. It's up to you, and others, who have access to the Pendleton Power flour to decide whether to use 65% hydration, especially if the 24-hour cold fermentation results in dough balls that can be easily opened up and formed into skins without sticking to anything. Earlier today, I followed up my email to Pendleton on the bag size information with a voicemail, so if they respond maybe we can get a better feel for what size bag of flour might have been used to make the dough in the video. However, it is possible that the dimensions of the 25-pound, 30-pound and 32-pound bags of Power flour are not different enough to be able to tell from afar which might have been used in the video. If Luigi was always committed to using unbleached flour, then that would rule out the 30-pound bag of flour since that flour is bleached.

Peter

Peter,

I'll try the 65% hydration again, probably this coming weekend.

On the other hand, and I know I'm going back and forth on this, the dough that's shown being made and balled up, doesn't strike me as a 65% hydration given the fact that the dough releases off of Fieri's fingers (scale shot) and both their hands (ball-up shot) very easily. Another thing is that the 65% hydration individual balls I made didn't look anything like the ones that are shown in the proofing box when Luigi first starts to make his pies.

The pic you showed me from Luigi's gallery I believe it was, showed very flat rounds of dough, which resembled the ones I made with a 65% hydration after a 24 hr fermentation period.

Needless to say, I'm a bit confused.  ???
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on September 07, 2011, 09:17:56 PM
Mike,

You should by all means go with what works best for you with the type of mixer you are using. You might also use a water temperature to achieve a finished dough temperature of around 75-80 degrees F and go directly into the refrigerator with the dough balls as soon as they have been formed. From the photos of the dough balls I have seen at Pizzeria Luigi, the only ones that looked pristine were the ones shown in the video. So Luigi's dough balls aren't perfect either.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on September 08, 2011, 09:55:01 AM
At Reply 125 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg151643.html#msg151643, I recently reported on what I learned from a technical person at the Pendleton mill in Idaho about the Power flour and, more specifically, the rated absorption value and related hydration issues pertaining to that flour. Just prior to speaking with the Pendleton employee, I had also sent an email to Pendleton on the same subject just in case I did not receive a prompt reply by telephone. Yesterday, I got a response to that email from another Pendleton employee (a technical sales manager) to whom my email was referred. Here is the gist of that reply:

Per your research, your findings about 65% water absorption are correct and this is one of our selling points with Power Hi Gluten.

Our Power Flour does have a higher absorption than most other flours out in the market.  And it will hold the extra water at the bowl.  One of our selling points for Power flour is the higher absorption you get with it.  A lot of flours especially flours from Texas, California, Kansas, have absorptions around 60%.  So you can get quite a bit more water in at the bowl with Power, and better hydration as well.


Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on September 08, 2011, 10:18:09 AM
...I will await a response to my email to Pendleton on the matter of their bag sizes.

Peter

Yesterday, I received a reply from Pendleton to my email on the Power flour in which I requested the dimensions of the 25-pound, 30-pound, 32-pound and 50-pound flour bags. Here are the dimensions:

25lb - 14x3x25
30lb - 14.5x3.5x28
32lb - 14.5x3.5x28
50lb - 16x5x30.5


As can be seen, the same size bag is used to package both the 30-pound Power product and the 32-pound Power product. That makes sense given that the difference is only two pounds of flour.

I am not sure exactly what size flour bag is shown in the storage unit next to the oven at 0:43 in the Luigi video, but to my eye and in relation to the long dimension of the dough boxes (26"?), I would say that the flour bag looks to be 25 pounds. On the same relational basis, the flour bags shown at 2:24 in the video appear to be 50-pound bags.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 08, 2011, 12:52:19 PM
Mike,

You should by all means go with what works best for you with the type of mixer you are using. You might also use a water temperature to achieve a finished dough temperature of around 75-80 degrees F and go directly into the refrigerator with the dough balls as soon as they have been formed. From the photos of the dough balls I have seen at Pizzeria Luigi, the only ones that looked pristine were the ones shown in the video. So Luigi's dough balls aren't perfect either.

Peter

Peter,

I think a 63% hydration for the pro oven experiment I think could be adequate enough. I'll make sure I hit the water temp you suggested.

Good info on the bag sizes. That confirms what you have suspected all along.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on September 08, 2011, 01:30:13 PM
One of the things that I have been wondering about is where Luigi actually prepared the dough balls for his pizzeria (the one shown in the video) at the time of the video shoot. Was it on the worktable in the middle of the work area as shown in the video or somewhere else?

To see if I could find the answer, I looked at all of the photos of the Pizzeria Luigi work area. The photos at yelp seem to provide some clues. See, for example, photo #4 at http://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/ieatOFaTeDqXEV01_GT5_Q?select=NoF5rhJu-yyOQ7AiJ4RjBw, photo #5 at http://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/ieatOFaTeDqXEV01_GT5_Q?select=BOu7XaRx8knMchfzK_fN2Q (the same two people are in photos #4 and #5), photo #9 at http://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/ieatOFaTeDqXEV01_GT5_Q?select=vBuGeiUblYAhafh63m7uKA, photo #38 at http://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/ieatOFaTeDqXEV01_GT5_Q?select=LGiMa96c_JpckTxxpy1-XQ, and photo #41 at http://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/ieatOFaTeDqXEV01_GT5_Q?select=13-rkItZupXFedKV7TPHjQ

From a timeframe perspective, photos #4 and #5 were uploaded to yelp before the video was shot, photo #9 was uploaded after the shoot, and photos #38 and #39 were uploaded in Jan. 2010, also after the shoot. However, all of the photos show a table behind the pizza assembly area, more or less in the middle of the work area. Moreover, the photos show the table to be a general-purpose worktable where workers could perform all kinds of chores (cutting vegetables, making salads, etc.).

If I had to guess, I would now say that the dough balls were not formed on that table at the middle of the work area, as was done for the video shoot, but rather on the table to the right of the oven where the flour bags were stored on the lower rack pending use. That makes more sense given that there is a scale on that table, as shown in the Luigi video at 0:26, for example, and the dough boxes are stacked on top of the table right where the dough balls would be formed, and the table is only a few steps away from the mixer area where the dough is made. Note also that there is a knife next to the scale. Both the scale and the knife later show up on the middle work table at 2:05 in the video where Guy and Luigi formed a few dough balls.

Also, one of our members, a professional, told me via a PM recently that putting the dough boxes next to the oven would cause all of the dough balls to ferment at the same rate and one would normally only do that if all of the dough balls were to be used very quickly, and more so if the dough balls were fermented at room temperature. I donít know what the temperature next to Luigiís oven would be but I recently asked Norma if she could measure the temperature to the side of her deck oven and, on a day where the ambient temperature at market was in the 70s, she got readings taken at different times of day of about 106-108 degrees F. Under these conditions, logic would seem to suggest that the dough boxes with Luigiís dough balls in them not be placed next to the oven but rather be placed on the worktable when and as needed to fill orders. Apparently that is what is shown at 0:43 in the video. Otherwise, I did not see large numbers of dough boxes at the actual pizza assembly area. The only dough box I saw in the pizza assembly area is the one at 2:15 in the video and that was for the photo shoot.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on September 08, 2011, 02:22:09 PM
Good info on the bag sizes. That confirms what you have suspected all along.

Mike,

I actually waffled on this one. At first, I thought that the small bag was 25 pounds. Then when I looked online for some photos of 25 pound bags of flour, the bags looked too small to me. Then, when I was in the supermarket recently, I saw other 25 pound bags of flour and they looked larger again. Also, our resident mechanical genius Gene (Jet_deck), whose sense of scale is much better than mine, thought that the lone bag in the storage unit at 0:43 in the video was 25 pounds. Today, with the bag information from Pendleton in hand, I picked some numbers off of the video to compare with the long dimension of a typical Cambro dough box. That dimension is 26" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PRA_BJYvTc). The outline of the small bag of flour in the video was blurry, and I have learned that camera angles and distances can introduce some distortion in images, but after doing a few calculations from the frame at 0:43, where the dough boxes are directly above the bag of flour as far as I can tell, I concluded that the closest match was to the 25-pound bag. The other sizes (the long dimensions) were too far off. So, for now, I am back at 25 pounds again.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 08, 2011, 04:27:08 PM
One of the things that I have been wondering about is where Luigi actually prepared the dough balls for his pizzeria (the one shown in the video) at the time of the video shoot. Was it on the worktable in the middle of the work area as shown in the video or somewhere else?

To see if I could find the answer, I looked at all of the photos of the Pizzeria Luigi work area. The photos at yelp seem to provide some clues. See, for example, photo #4 at http://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/ieatOFaTeDqXEV01_GT5_Q?select=NoF5rhJu-yyOQ7AiJ4RjBw, photo #5 at http://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/ieatOFaTeDqXEV01_GT5_Q?select=BOu7XaRx8knMchfzK_fN2Q (the same two people are in photos #4 and #5), photo #9 at http://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/ieatOFaTeDqXEV01_GT5_Q?select=vBuGeiUblYAhafh63m7uKA, photo #38 at http://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/ieatOFaTeDqXEV01_GT5_Q?select=LGiMa96c_JpckTxxpy1-XQ, and photo #41 at http://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/ieatOFaTeDqXEV01_GT5_Q?select=13-rkItZupXFedKV7TPHjQ

From a timeframe perspective, photos #4 and #5 were uploaded to yelp before the video was shot, photo #9 was uploaded after the shoot, and photos #38 and #39 were uploaded in Jan. 2010, also after the shoot. However, all of the photos show a table behind the pizza assembly area, more or less in the middle of the work area. Moreover, the photos show the table to be a general-purpose worktable where workers could perform all kinds of chores (cutting vegetables, making salads, etc.).

If I had to guess, I would now say that the dough balls were not formed on that table at the middle of the work area, as was done for the video shoot, but rather on the table to the right of the oven where the flour bags were stored on the lower rack pending use. That makes more sense given that there is a scale on that table, as shown in the Luigi video at 0:26, for example, and the dough boxes are stacked on top of the table right where the dough balls would be formed, and the table is only a few steps away from the mixer area where the dough is made. Note also that there is a knife next to the scale. Both the scale and the knife later show up on the middle work table at 2:05 in the video where Guy and Luigi formed a few dough balls.

Also, one of our members, a professional, told me via a PM recently that putting the dough boxes next to the oven would cause all of the dough balls to ferment at the same rate and one would normally only do that if all of the dough balls were to be used very quickly, and more so if the dough balls were fermented at room temperature. I donít know what the temperature next to Luigiís oven would be but I recently asked Norma if she could measure the temperature to the side of her deck oven and, on a day where the ambient temperature at market was in the 70s, she got readings taken at different times of day of about 106-108 degrees F. Under these conditions, logic would seem to suggest that the dough boxes with Luigiís dough balls in them not be placed next to the oven but rather be placed on the worktable when and as needed to fill orders. Apparently that is what is shown at 0:43 in the video. Otherwise, I did not see large numbers of dough boxes at the actual pizza assembly area. The only dough box I saw in the pizza assembly area is the one at 2:15 in the video and that was for the photo shoot.

Peter


Peter,

I believe the dough's being made in a little room behind the oven or behind the wall where the oven is. At least that's the impression I got but am not a 100% certain. I went on Google Maps, used the Street view feature and took some pics. On the side of the building there are two separate windows and I think the window on the left is the room that houses the mixer. The one on the right is the one that has the oven, the prep station and customer counter, etc. I could be wrong but I think that's the set up.

But the dough was balled in the room with the oven. Could it be that those dough boxes next to the oven just came out of the cooler and left to come up to room temp?

Regarding the 25 lb bag, I think that sounds about right. Maybe we should stick with it for now unless we get other information somehow.

Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on September 09, 2011, 07:56:31 AM
This post is just to update that I called Pendleton Flour Mills again yesterday morning., since I didnít get any return phone calls from last week, or any emails back from what I posted on Pendleton Flour contact page.  I did get a return phone call from Jenny Dick and she transferred my call to Kirk Stehr.  I talked to Kirk to see if there are any distributors in my area for Power flour.  He asked me how much of the Power flour I wanted to purchase, and I said I only wanted to try out the Power flour to see how it would be in the pizzas I make.  Kirk said he would get Alex to call me back, because he is the person that takes care of smaller accounts and finds distributors for them.  I didnít get any call back yesterday from Alex.  I really donít think I am going to be able to purchase any Power flour.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 09, 2011, 12:02:46 PM
This post is just to update that I called Pendleton Flour Mills again yesterday morning., since I didnít get any return phone calls from last week, or any emails back from what I posted on Pendleton Flour contact page.  I did get a return phone call from Jenny Dick and she transferred my call to Kirk Stehr.  I talked to Kirk to see if there are any distributors in my area for Power flour.  He asked me how much of the Power flour I wanted to purchase, and I said I only wanted to try out the Power flour to see how it would be in the pizzas I make.  Kirk said he would get Alex to call me back, because he is the person that takes care of smaller accounts and finds distributors for them.  I didnít get any call back yesterday from Alex.  I really donít think I am going to be able to purchase any Power flour.

Norma

Norma,

Before you throw in the towel wait for the phone call. Maybe the Alex guy is just trying to figure things out regarding the PPF.  ;)
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 09, 2011, 12:12:14 PM
Okay, so today I'll be able to see how the Luigi #1 clone formula is going to hold up in a commercial oven. I used Luigi's dough weight of 18oz for one dough ball and used Peter numbers set forth here:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg151870.html#msg151870

The only thing that's different is the hydration at 63% instead of 65%.

Flour (100%):
Water (63%):
ADY (.70827%):
Salt (1.984%):
Sugar (.22928%):
Total (165.92155%):
310.63 g  |  10.96 oz | 0.68 lbs
195.7 g  |  6.9 oz | 0.43 lbs
2.2 g | 0.08 oz | 0 lbs | 0.58 tsp | 0.19 tbsp
6.16 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.1 tsp | 0.37 tbsp
0.71 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.18 tsp | 0.06 tbsp
515.4 g | 18.18 oz | 1.14 lbs | TF = N/A

I will transport the dough in a cooler packed with some ice and keep it there until it's almost time to head over to my pizza guy. Let's see how it turns out.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on September 09, 2011, 03:37:51 PM
Norma,

Before you throw in the towel wait for the phone call. Maybe the Alex guy is just trying to figure things out regarding the PPF.  ;)

Mike,

Thanks for the encouragement.  :)  I don't really think I will be able to just get one bag of Power Flour. 

Best of luck in your experimental Luigi's #1 in your friends deck oven.  Looking forward to the results!

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: PizzaEater101 on September 09, 2011, 03:41:25 PM
I've been withholding pics I suppose but here is a pic of the pizza at Luigi.  I know, I know there is one slice missing. My friend Don has it on his side of the table.  I forgot that I should take pics until I removed the slice of pizza and gave it to him.   I guess you don't need these pics since the video captures that were posted show the pizza quite well. 

Here it is -

Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: PizzaEater101 on September 09, 2011, 03:48:29 PM
Another pic of the pizza.  My friend Don across from me has the slice right in front of him.  Sorry, didn't take many pics of pizza. Should have but I was so hungry after walking a couple of miles on the beach, not eating a thing all day and finally eating late. Oh yeah that traffic from LA was too long too.   The pizza was so good I only had one piece to bring back to my wife.  She was mad I only brought back one piece!  LOL, next time I bring her to SD or bring her more pizza back.

For what it's worth if you are interested here is a pic of the San Diego skyline from Coronado Island.  Not really and Island but they call it that, it's connected by a small strip of land.  Some drive it and some take the bridge.  Luigi is no where near Coronado but we drove over there because it's a cool place to visit. 

Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 09, 2011, 03:52:42 PM
Mike,

Thanks for the encouragement.  :)  I don't really think I will be able to just get one bag of Power Flour. 

Best of luck in your experimental Luigi's #1 in your friends deck oven.  Looking forward to the results!

Norma

I'll make sure to take some pics. Dough's warming up as we speak. I'll be heading over there in about 15 mins.   :)
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 09, 2011, 03:57:54 PM
Another pic of the pizza.  My friend Don across from me has the slice right in front of him.  Sorry, didn't take many pics of pizza. Should have but I was so hungry after walking a couple of miles on the beach, not eating a thing all day and finally eating late. Oh yeah that traffic from LA was too long too.   The pizza was so good I only had one piece to bring back to my wife.  She was mad I only brought back one piece!  LOL, next time I bring her to SD or bring her more pizza back.

For what it's worth if you are interested here is a pic of the San Diego skyline from Coronado Island.  Not really and Island but they call it that, it's connected by a small strip of land.  Some drive it and some take the bridge.  Luigi is no where near Coronado but we drove over there because it's a cool place to visit. 



PE101,

Great pics! Thanks for them.

Looks like you both were enjoying Luigi's pie. One request, though...next time you go there, could you take some crumb shots and perhaps the bottom of the crust? Btw, which pie did you order? It looks like a pepperoni/potato or are those sausage or meatballs?

Coronado Island has a bunch of great breakfast places. It's a quaint little place. Very nice.

Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: PizzaEater101 on September 09, 2011, 07:14:41 PM
Mike, yep we both had a great time and the pizza was great.  The pizza was a standard pepperoni and sausage.  The sausage is sliced, not crumbled up like many a pizza place.

Yeah I was disappointed that I didn't take more pics.  I was so hungry that the pics didn't seem in the forefront of my thoughts.  But yes next time for sure I'm going to take crum and bottom pics and more overall.

Oh yeah Coronado has some great eating places too.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 09, 2011, 08:43:48 PM
Well...my initial excitement turned into slight disappointment of having the Luigi #1 crust baked in a pro oven.

But before I go on, I need to correct myself from an earlier statement I made regarding my pizza guy's (Armando) oven. It's not a Baker's Pride, it's a Montague Gas double stack w/steel decks.

Okay, first the good stuff. Armando was surprised with the quality of the dough, its feel and stretchability. He was genuinely impressed and had a hard time believing that it was made in a regular home mixer (Cuisinart SM-55). After opening the dough, he started tossing it in the same fashion as Luigi until the skin hit the desired size of 18 inches. He kept asking me in which way I wanted it topped and I told him a little less sauce than what he usually uses and perhaps 12 - 13 oz of cheese. "New York-style, then?" he asked. Yep.

He started to dress the dough while it was sitting on a screen. All their doughs are baked on screens. I would have rather seen it go directly on the deck but that was what I got. I didn't want to push it and since it was also lunch time I didn't want to clog up his oven nor interrupt his work too much. I also showed him a couple of pics of Luigi's pies, especially the crust thickness and when I told him what the dough ball weight was, he immediately questioned that Luigi uses a dough weight of 18oz for a 18 inch pie. He thinks it might be more in the range of 20 - 21 oz to achieve the desired thickness Luigi uses speaking from the pics he's seen. He also noted that to achieve the outer rim in the size of Luigi's, the dough ball needs to be higher in weight or make concessions to the size of the pie. When he tossed the pie and then positioned on the screen he said "Man, that's thin. Almost too thin to hold any toppings." I have to say that this crust was a lot thinner then I have ever made at home. A lot thinner.

Overall, he was impressed with the Cuisinart's capabilities, the quality of the dough and how easy it was to stretch. It was also the first time I saw any of my doughs handled by a professional and seeing it tossed. Very cool.

Now the bad part...

The crust had almost no oven spring whatsoever. It came out flat, I mean completely flat. No pronounced outer rim, no nothing.

No browning, either! It came out pale. My biggest concern was, before going in today, that the dough might not hold up and gets scorched. Well, it was the total opposite. I have a better tan than my own dough baked in a professional oven. And that says something.

I asked Armando at what temps he was running his oven today and it clocked at 540įF. His pies, which I had a bunch of times, have always a nice color. He also said that Luigi's oven could be an older model that runs a bit hotter. I don't know how that makes sense but the one thing that comes to mind is DiFara. I mentioned that the sugar amount in the dough is very minimal. He told me to increase it.

The crust had no crunch. Nada. Plus, the cheese burned before the crust was done because he tried to coax some color out of the dough which didn't happen. The overall baking time was, because of him trying to get some coloration going, close to 14 mins! I know, I know...this is a lot but I looked at the dough as an experimental one anyway and dint have any problems having it tested out to the fullest. I told him that at home, my bake time is always somewhere around 8 minutes at a higher temp. Armando wasn't surprised but mentioned that he can't run the oven any higher because of their own dough. Anyway, needless to say that it was a flop from the baking point of view and success in terms of the dough's quality, structure and tossability.

It's back to the drawing board for me. But the overall experience was still great and getting to see the dough being tossed around was nice. Pics...
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: chickenparm on September 09, 2011, 09:22:23 PM
The pizzas you made at home were so much better.I can see you were not happy with the end results at all.Going back and seeing those other pics,I find it hard to believe the fault was in your dough.

I can't help but think that oven was really baking at 450 F at its best.I also don't get it, why some places use a deck oven,only to put screens under the pies.It drives me crazy when they do that.

They also did not build much of a rim either,the dough looked like it was going to be a cracker crust with that edge.Btw,did they use the dough docker? It was sitting there,so I wasn't sure.















Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on September 09, 2011, 09:24:42 PM
Mike,

Your dough sure looked like it handled really well.  I enjoyed the pictures, and especially the one of  Armando tossing your Luigiís #`1 dough.  You sure did a great job of mixing and fermenting your dough.

Your pie looks good to me.  :) Even some of Luigiís pies are lighter in color.  I donít understand either why there was no crunch on the bottom.

As for your comments on how thin the pie was, I had talked to a pizza operator and asked him how many ounces his dough was for a 20Ē pizza last weekend and he said it was 18 oz.  He also said he baked his pies at 575 degrees F and his pies were lighter in color too, and they were baked in a Bakerís Pride oven.  Sometimes it is hard to figure out why things happen.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: chickenparm on September 09, 2011, 09:38:57 PM
Norma,

Since I use screens once in a while to make the larger 18 inch pies,cooked on top of a smaller stone,I can never get the 18 inch to get crispy.It always stays on the soft side with not much crunch.Pizza places that cook their pies on screens usually never get a good crunch either,not from my experience.

If someone mastered that,then I would be inclined to say there had to be a lot of oil used in the dough.

I really wished they at least cooked this pie on the deck itself.Maybe another time,Mike?
 :)




Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on September 09, 2011, 09:45:27 PM
Mike,

I was curious to see how your dough would work in the commercial oven with the screen and metal deck. I'm sorry things didn't turn out as you had hoped. I think your dough formulation should have worked so you may want to replicate what you did but use your home oven, temperature and stone again. We earlier discussed using more sugar, so that might be considered.

As for the dough weight, the Luigi video shows the scale at 18 ounces at 2:04.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on September 09, 2011, 09:47:07 PM
Norma,

Since I use screens once in a while to make the larger 18 inch pies,cooked on top of a smaller stone,I can never get the 18 inch to get crispy.It always stays on the soft side with not much crunch.Pizza places that cook their pies on screens usually never get a good crunch either,not from my experience.

If someone mastered that,then I would be inclined to say there had to be a lot of oil used in the dough.

I really wished they at least cooked this pie on the deck itself.Maybe another time,Mike?
 :)


Bill,

I know you do use screens once in awhile to make 18Ē pizzas, but didnít know you couldnít ever get the 18Ē bottoms crispy.  I never tried to bake a pie just on a screen.  I have baked on a screen when I first was learning to make pizzas, but then transferred them onto the deck.  I have no idea how Mikeís Luigiís #1 clone dough would have baked on a steel deck oven.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 09, 2011, 10:06:15 PM
The pizzas you made at home were so much better.I can see you were not happy with the end results at all.Going back and seeing those other pics,I find it hard to believe the fault was in your dough.

I can't help but think that oven was really baking at 450 F at its best.I also don't get it, why some places use a deck oven,only to put screens under the pies.It drives me crazy when they do that.

They also did not build much of a rim either,the dough looked like it was going to be a cracker crust with that edge.Btw,did they use the dough docker? It was sitting there,so I wasn't sure.


Bill, Norma and Peter

Thanks for the moral support  ;D I appreciate that.

I wish he would have baked the pie without the screen but then again, Armando is not the owner but mentioned that he actually prefers to bake right on the deck. The owner, apparently, does not want the employees there to waste too much time on cleaning the decks from corn meal, flour or semolina. That's the reason.

Regarding the temp, it was at 540įF which left me a bit stumped to be honest. But the thing is that every pizzeria owner I have talked to so far, whether it was Luc & Annie from Marcello's, the guy from Village Host in Belmont where I used to live and now Armando, all have given me basically the same oven temps...525į F to 550įF which is the same as Luigi's apparently.

Bill, he didn't use the docker. He straight up opened the skin, tossed it and dressed it.

Peter, I know Luigi said 18 oz and I saw the scale but my dough today seemed really to be too thin. Especially when I compare it to Marcello's and Avellino. Even Armando, who's very familiar with Marcello's crust and another of his coworkers, who used to work at Marcello's, thought it was thinner that what I showed him from the pics. I really don't know.

But where does that leave us now? I will definitely make this dough again albeit 16" in size and test it again in my oven just to get some comparison going.

I also got a couple of upskirt shots of the crust. Excuse the low quality, all pics where taken with my cell phone cam...

Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on September 09, 2011, 10:13:23 PM
Mike,

Can you tell us how you managed the dough from the time it was formed into a ball and give us the timeline from that point until it went into the oven?

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: chickenparm on September 09, 2011, 10:35:21 PM
Mike,

While it doesn't show up in typing,I was being somewhat facetious about the 450 F temps.Since you had such a decade long bake time,it just seemed fitting.
 ;)











Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 09, 2011, 10:43:17 PM
Mike,

Can you tell us how you managed the dough from the time it was formed into a ball and give us the timeline from that point until it went into the oven?

Peter

Peter,

It was as followed...

7:00pm, made the dough. Kneading time: 10 mins / Speed 2. Came off the hook at 75įF, was balled then immediately refrigerated in the same container you see in the pics. At 9:30am I took it out, placed it in a cooler with ice and drove to work where it sat until shortly after 1:00pm. I took it out of the cooler at Noon to bring it to room temp. Walked over to Armando and he immediately started to work on it.

It didn't receive a full 24 hrs of fermentation because of work/time constraints and I was only able to fit in 13 hrs. That might have had some impact. My hunch, though, is it could be a sugar issue or perhaps the flour hasn't matured yet and is too fresh. I really don't know at this moment. I will see if the dough behaves differently in my home setting under the exact same circumstances.

Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 09, 2011, 10:43:59 PM
Mike,

While it doesn't show up in typing,I was being somewhat facetious about the 450 F temps.Since you had such a decade long bake time,it just seemed fitting.
 ;)



Lol. I know exactly what you mean.  ;D

Just look at the cheese and then the rim in that last pic of the pie in the box. There's not even a dark spot on there it seems, whereas the cheese got a tan you'll probably only get in space without a suit. Pretty discouraging... ;)
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: chickenparm on September 09, 2011, 10:47:15 PM
Bill,

I know you do use screens once in awhile to make 18Ē pizzas, but didnít know you couldnít ever get the 18Ē bottoms crispy.  I never tried to bake a pie just on a screen.  I have baked on a screen when I first was learning to make pizzas, but then transferred them onto the deck.  I have no idea how Mikeís Luigiís #1 clone dough would have baked on a steel deck oven.

Norma

Norma,

I do not know 100% for sure that a 18 inch NY style pie cooked on a screen cannot get crispy.I just have never seen one or made one at home during my experiments that made a crispy crust.

The crust on the screens,is usually a little softer than what gets baked onto a stone or deck.The rim might get crunchy,but not the bottom of the pie.

There may be a place out there that can do so.I really don't know.Maybe a different oven or dough formula makes it possible.

When I get a larger surface to bake on,I will for sure,do experiments with the large screen and without.It should be fun to see what can be done.

:)

-Bill






Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Jet_deck on September 09, 2011, 11:47:16 PM
Hey Bro, (Mike)
I have not mentioned it until this point, but I saw something in the video that was so different than what we see in other pictures.  I cannot document what I am talking about right this minute but here is the jist of things.  Guy and Luigi (what ever the h3ll his name is) were making dough balls.  I know they had not proofed yet, but they are tiny in comparison to the proofed balls that they scoop out of the container.  The unproofed balls are 1/4 of the size of the big fat nearly overblown balls that have been proofed/heated by the oven.  Luigi must be talking about the ball size for a calzone or something.  I believe that he incorrectly stated the weight of the balls for the 18" standard pizza. 

Your pizza guy did the best he could (stretching wise) with the amount of dough given.  I agree that he left no rim.  He could not because there wasn't enough dough.  Luigi was a smart snake in Pupatella clothes, with due respect.  I believe he mislead the viewers at every chance he got.  I would do the same thing in his shoes, or his un-hair netted head.  :chef:
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Jet_deck on September 10, 2011, 12:20:14 AM
Look at this dough ball (unproofed).  (1)

And it becomes this monster ? (2-4)

Luigi's rim is really not that pronounced.  (5)


I need visual assistance.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 10, 2011, 12:33:04 AM
Hey Bro, (Mike)
I have not mentioned it until this point, but I saw something in the video that was so different than what we see in other pictures.  I cannot document what I am talking about right this minute but here is the jist of things.  Guy and Luigi (what ever the h3ll his name is) were making dough balls.  I know they had not proofed yet, but they are tiny in comparison to the proofed balls that they scoop out of the container.  The unproofed balls are 1/4 of the size of the big fat nearly overblown balls that have been proofed/heated by the oven.  Luigi must be talking about the ball size for a calzone or something.  I believe that he incorrectly stated the weight of the balls for the 18" standard pizza. 

Your pizza guy did the best he could (stretching wise) with the amount of dough given.  I agree that he left no rim.  He could not because there wasn't enough dough.  Luigi was a smart snake in Pupatella clothes, with due respect.  I believe he mislead the viewers at every chance he got.  I would do the same thing in his shoes, or his un-hair netted head.  :chef:

JD,

I had the exact same thought. I didn't mention it earlier because it was just small talk between me and my pizza guy Armando but he somewhat questioned the accuracy of the weight given for an 18" pie.

The way he said it was basically if one has a winning dough recipe, good enough to be featured on a very popular nationally televised show, would you give away every little detail of your pizza for others to basically replicate it and start their own business? Not to mention with his biggest competitor being right in his own back yard, Bronx Pizza.

I read somewhere that he worked at Bronx and his menu and pies resemble that of Bronx just under different names and perhaps better. His spinach/ricotta is called Donatello and Bronx is called Whitestone; same pie...garlic, ricotta, mozza and romano (parmesan for Bronx).

Now, don't get me wrong...I am not here to discredit Luigi and his craftsmanship. Not at all.

He deserves credit where credit is due. I would also understand his desire to keep some of his workflow, recipes and exact details under wraps. I'd do the same thing if I had an award-winning braised lamb shank recipe, a beautiful pasta sauce or a pizza dough recipe, for that matter.

But by revealing everything, Luigi would have inadvertently also given away the recipe for Bronx' pies. And since the guys from Bronx pizza are really seem to be from NYC, I'm not surprised that Luigi brings up the water issue in the video perhaps trying to disguise it by using Northern Milan and Naples as references, whether it holds any truth to it or not.

But no matter what the case or cases seem to be, Luigi's still strikes me at one of the best NY-style pies here in California worth having a shot at a reverse-engineering project! Plus, Armando assured me that if I want to try another dough again, he'll be happy to do it. So I got some leeway there :)
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 10, 2011, 12:37:42 AM
Look at this dough ball (unproofed).  (1)

And it becomes this monster ? (2-4)

Luigi's rim is really not that pronounced.  (5)


I need visual assistance.

JD,

The rim might not be pronounced in those pics but take a look at the one below.

Also, here's a shot I was looking for yesterday...the dough he's shaping has some cracks in them. I only get them after the dough has either proofed too long or was exposed to air for a prolonged period of time. And if it's really a 65% hydration dough, it does take some time to dry the dough out.

Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on September 10, 2011, 08:47:11 AM
I donít know, but would think Luigi learned a lot while working at Bronx pizza.  If the Yelp reviews are looked at, Luigiís seems to win out, but people still also seem to like Bronx pizza.  Just my .02 cents, but both pizzas look the same most of the times, at least to me.  Maybe Luigi, just did something a little different with ingredients in the dough, maybe different proofing or fermentation of his doughs, or maybe different oven temperature or longer baked times, and maybe changed his sauce a little for his pizzeria.  If the video of Bronx pizza is watched at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GP2Y_Db7mi0  it shows how thin the dough skin (18Ē)is when it is tossed.   There are also pictures of Bronx pizza dough balls sitting in the dough box on the video.  There are about 105 pictures of Bronx pizzas on Yelp. http://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/vpnHAJ7s9sUBvg8n7yX_2A?select=X4I-2qYORSN6xFOw9l-RRQ  Bronx pizzas also look very thin, without a lot of rim or rise in the rim.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Jet_deck on September 10, 2011, 09:21:28 AM
I donít know, but would think Luigi learned a lot while working at Bronx pizza. Norma

I agree Norma.  Including the old "dough box by the oven" trick.



Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on September 10, 2011, 09:32:07 AM

Including the old "dough box by the oven" trick.


Gene,

Yep, that is even the same.  :-D

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 10, 2011, 12:45:57 PM
JD & Norma,

The point I was trying to make by using Luigi and Bronx in one post was that one might have to look to Bronx first in order to be able to understand Luigi's dough. But after doing a bit of research this morning, I think there's even less info available on Bronx' pizza then on Luigi's.

However, I think it's safe to say that everybody can see the similarities between the two. After mulling this entire thing over last night and a bit this morning, I think Peter's dough formulas are extremely close and might need a little tweaking here and there in order to nail it. The reason I say 'extremely close' is because the video and all the info we have garnered so far still leave some small holes that need to be plugged. The question is how to go about it.

I don't mind experimenting to my heart's content but what am I going to do with all the pizzas that come out of my oven then? I, nor my taste testers, won't be able to handle the amount  ;D and I don't want to waste flour, cheese or any other toppings so I'd rather get a close as possible and then put the formulas through a good testing rather then taking a shot in the dark.

Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Jet_deck on September 10, 2011, 12:49:11 PM
.... and I don't want to waste flour, cheese or any other toppings so I'd rather get a close as possible and then put the formulas through a good testing rather then taking a shot in the dark....



Mike (bro) if you have the resources to ship me half that bag of flour, I will pay for it. :)
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on September 10, 2011, 01:58:45 PM
I will confess that Luigi raised my hackles a bit when I thought that he was less than forthcoming about his mode of fermentation (more on this below), and also when I saw the two ďhome pizza makerĒ recipes attributed to him, but I am normally not a conspiracy theorist. I think a good part of what we saw in the video was calculated to enhance the production and entertainment values of the DDD FoodNetwork segment, which is what attracts advertisers after all. It is also obvious that they spiffed up the place for the video and, in the process, no likely moved things around from their normal places to make the central area look uncluttered. Judging from the yelp reviews, cleanliness apparently wasnít next to godliness for Luigi. Yelpers have been complaining for a long time about the lack of cleanliness of the pizzeria, and those negative reviews continue to this day. I even think that they used a new worktable in the main area near the oven and make line and that the mixer bowl was also brand new. They look too pristine for used equipment.

But even if I were a would-be competitor trying to uncover Luigiís dough recipe and practices, I wouldnít rely on the video alone. In fact, it is hard for me to imagine that anyone would go through the kinds of contortions and mental gymnastics and research that we have gone through on this thread to decipher Luigiís methods. The video is just too disjointed. Even if what is shown in the video is accurate and not as a result of duplicity to throw people off the scent, I wouldnít rely on the video by itself. I would go to San Diego and case the joint, both from the outside and the inside, to find the best information on what Luigi actually does. In order to get a sense of the volume of business that Luigi does, I might try out sleuthing techniques such as described at the PMQ Think Tank at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3403&hilit= and at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=9926&hilit=. In line with those threads, Iíd be curious to know if James (PizzaEater101) recalls getting receipts with numbers on them when he ordered slices originally and a full pizza the last time.

With respect to the thinness of the skins used by Luigi, I do not consider a thickness factor of 0.070074 to be too low. It might be a bit low for some actual NY styles but I recall that Evelyne Slomon once gave me information from which I calculated a thickness factor for Johnís elite NY style (at the original location) of less than 0.0704 (actually, it was around 0.06, based on 15-16 ounces of dough to make an 18Ē pizza). I wonít hold Evelyne to those exact numbers since she was relying on memory and the fact that the old NYC pizza operators didnít weigh things and worked only with volume measurements. But a thickness factor of 0.0704 does not strike me as being out of line.

Looking at the yelp Bronx photos that Norma referenced, I couldnít get over how much the Luigi and Bronx pizzas look alike. It also looks like Luigi borrowed many parts of the Bronxís business model. Even the store hours seem to be the same, as well as the ďcash onlyĒ policy. I guess imitation is the sincerest form of flattery after all.

Turning now to the Luigi #1 clone dough formulation that Mike used, I think that there was enough hydration of the dough that he made and had workable values of yeast and salt (I address sugar below). In fact, I believe that the dough formulation, if properly executed, can be used to make both a room temperature fermented dough and a cold fermented dough. I would come down on the side of cold fermentation, and particularly for a one-day cold fermentation, because it seems to better fit the type and volume of business that Luigi appears to be doing. Maybe our metal pizza plate and oven thermodynamics guru scott123 can comment on the bake that took place at Mikeís pizzeria friendís place, but from my experience using pizza screens on baking stones there is a reduction in oven spring because the screen is cold when it hits the bake surface and has to get up to temperature before the pizza can start to bake. I personally would have preferred to see a full 24 hours of cold fermentation with Mikeís dough since that is what has been reported as now being used by Luigi. However, I can understand and appreciate that Mikeís schedule did not permit this.

On the matter of using more sugar in the Luigi #1 clone dough formulation, it might be worth increasing the amount. Normally, with a one-day cold fermentation period there is ample time for table sugar (sucrose) to be decomposed to simple sugars for purposes of feeding the yeast and for residual sugar purposes to increase the final crust coloration. However, as Tom Lehmann points out in his PMQTT post at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4669&hilit=#p26890, adding sugar to a dough with less than a couple days of cold fermentation will provide added crust coloration.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on September 10, 2011, 02:03:03 PM
Now back to the more boring and mundane stuff ;D.

Earlier in this thread, I raised the possibility of Luigi using either a Hobart P-660 60-quart mixer or a Hobart L800 80-quart mixer. Since I last posted on this subject, I did some further research on Hobart 60- and 80-quart mixers in general but did not find other models that look like the mixer Luigi uses in the video. Also, in the course of my research, I found a few YouTube videos that feature those mixers. One, for the P-660, for a two-speed model, is at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HDYOiw1PVM. There is also another video for a 60-quart mixer, for a four-speed model, at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gn3buD9GBBI&feature=related but, since the L800 mixer can also be used with a 60-quart bowl, it is not clear whether the mixer shown in the video is the P-660 or the L800 (the voiceover does not mention a model number). There is a video for the L800, for a four-speed model, at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3nWiNA89ZI. As previously mentioned, the P-660 and the L800 are of the same height. The timer/button arrangements for the two models are also the same or similar, with the timer on top and the start and stop buttons below.

In the Luigi video, Luigi is shown at 1:42 setting the timer. It is possible that as he is setting the timer he is also selecting the mixer speed with his other hand but it is not clear since his body obscures what he is doing with his right hand. Also, Mikeís attempt to get greater clarity on the speed control lever was inconclusive.

To recapitulate, the specs for the P-660 and L800 are at http://www.bakeryequipment.com/genUpload/60qt%20Pizza%20Mixer%20p660%20spec%20sheet.pdf and http://www.nnysupply.com/mixers/l800.pdf, respectively.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on September 10, 2011, 02:16:30 PM
In an unrelated thread today, a member posted a link to a feature where the "old next to the oven trick" is used, at http://bricksofwine.com/2009/03/thin-crust-pizza-recipe/. Dom DeMarco has his version (below the oven) and Luigi and Bronx feature their next to the oven approach, and now a Pizza Hut version. Maybe there is some merit to the method after all.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on September 10, 2011, 02:26:42 PM
Peter,

Do you think it would help this thread at all if I tried the Luigiís #1 formula you set-forth and try it in my deck oven.  I know I donít have the right brand of flour, but will be willing to help, if you or others think it will help in any way.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 10, 2011, 02:32:17 PM
Mike (bro) if you have the resources to ship me half that bag of flour, I will pay for it. :)

JD,

I don't have the resources to ship 11kg or 25lbs of flour around the country. What I could do is perhaps send you a 5lb bag since the USPS will ship anything that fits in a box at a low flat rate.

To go the USPS route might be a possibility but I can't do 25lbs of flour.  :)

Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 10, 2011, 02:44:06 PM
I personally would have preferred to see a full 24 hours of cold fermentation with Mikeís dough since that is what has been reported as now being used by Luigi. However, I can understand and appreciate that Mikeís schedule did not permit this.

On the matter of using more sugar in the Luigi #1 clone dough formulation, it might be worth increasing the amount. Normally, with a one-day cold fermentation period there is ample time for table sugar (sucrose) to be decomposed to simple sugars for purposes of feeding the yeast and for residual sugar purposes to increase the final crust coloration. However, as Tom Lehmann points out in his PMQTT post at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4669&hilit=#p26890, adding sugar to a dough with less than a couple days of cold fermentation will provide added crust coloration.

Peter


Peter,

Those were my thoughts exactly.

The missing 8 hours, I think, could have made a difference. I also think it had to do with the way it was baked. I had high hopes for this experiment but am not really 'crushed or in tears' that the outcome was anything but satisfactory. What I do take from it is that the dough was properly kneaded, was spinable/tossable and had a good structure.

That alone is a big plus in my book because it shows that a) my mixer (Cuisinart SM-55) is more than sufficient for pizza dough and b) the dough management was correct. Now it's just a matter of getting the baking right.

Like I said I can always go back with a revised version and have Armando do another bake, this time perhaps without a screen.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on September 10, 2011, 03:45:24 PM
Peter,

Do you think it would help this thread at all if I tried the Luigiís #1 formula you set-forth and try it in my deck oven.  I know I donít have the right brand of flour, but will be willing to help, if you or others think it will help in any way.

Norma

Norma,

Since you have a commercial deck oven and the capability of making 18" pizzas, I would think that anything you do to participate should be of benefit. If you can tell us which high gluten flours you have on hand, I'd be happy to help you with any math calculations.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 10, 2011, 04:44:28 PM
Not trying to beat a dead horse but I went back to take another look at Luigi's outer crust/rim and it is definitely more pronounced than my anemic-looking pizza from yesterday. I also went over to my NY-style project thread because there was one pic of a pie I made with All Trumps that looked very close to Luigi's 'Meat Lovers' pie.

No matter which way I look at it but Luigi's rim is more pronounced and if he does indeed use 18oz for his 18" pizzas then the center must be thin as paper. That also means that the crust must be of a sturdy kind meaning crunchy and baked thoroughly to be able to hold the toppings, especially Luigi's Mona Lisa with all the veggies which do release moisture. That would also explain Luigi's amount of salt (2 bowls), which inhibits fermentation but strengthens the gluten and a more stable crumb/crust, if I am not mistaken.

I doubt that my crust from yesterday would have been able to hold any other topping not to mention in the quantities of Luigi's pizzas. The bottom simply wasn't sturdy enough, imho.

I think I will keep the same TF Peter suggested but might increase the salt and sugar amounts and test it again in my oven. Maybe two different doughs, the same from yesterday and then one with modified amounts of salt & sugar.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on September 10, 2011, 04:47:09 PM
Not trying to beat a dead horse but I went back to take another look at Luigi's outer crust/rim and it is definitely more pronounced than my anemic-looking pizza from yesterday. I also went over to my NY-style project thread because there was one pic of a pie I made with All Trumps that looked very close to Luigi's 'Meat Lovers' pie.

No matter which way I look at it but Luigi's rim is more pronounced and if he does indeed use 18oz for his 18" pizzas then the center must be thin as paper. That also means that the crust must be of a sturdy kind meaning crunchy and baked thoroughly to be able to hold the toppings, especially Luigi's Mona Lisa with all the veggies which do release moisture. That would also explain Luigi's amount of salt (2 bowls), which inhibits fermentation but strengthens the gluten and a more stable crumb/crust, if I am not mistaken.

I doubt that my crust from yesterday would have been able to hold any other topping not to mention in the quantities of Luigi's pizzas. The bottom simply wasn't sturdy enough, imho.

I think I will keep the same TF Peter suggested but might increase the salt and sugar amounts and test it again in my oven. Maybe two different doughs, the same from yesterday and then one with modified amounts of salt & sugar.

Mike,

They are very interesting observations you made!  ;D

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on September 10, 2011, 04:48:06 PM
Norma,

Since you have a commercial deck oven and the capability of making 18" pizzas, I would think that anything you do to participate should be of benefit. If you can tell us which high gluten flours you have on hand, I'd be happy to help you with any math calculations.

Peter

Peter,

Right now I have ADM high-gluten flour, Kyrol high-gluten flour, and KASL.  I donít know, but would think the KASL would be the best choice, because it isnít bleached or bromated. I know in a post way back at Reply 43  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg150907.html#msg150907  you had suggested I could try KASL in combination with another flour.  Is that what you still would recommend?  I also have the Superlative flour and other AP flours if that is any help. I do need help with Novemberís tool at, http://foodsim.toastguard.com/  to be able to figure out how to get the right protein, if you think that would get me closer to a Luigiís pizza.  I do know this wonít be a real Luigiís clone, because I donít have the Power flour, but still will work on seeing if I can obtain a bag.

I appreciate the help with NovemberĎs tool.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on September 10, 2011, 04:50:48 PM


I donít know if any of this will help or not, but since Luigiís pizzas seem to be a lot like Bronx pizzas, I thought I would post.

Review for Bronx pizzeria that tells how thin the crust is.  This article must have been published in 2006.

http://www.whatwereeating.com/reviews/bronx-pizza-san-diego/


Another blogger tells about Bronx pizza in 2005.

http://mmm-yoso.typepad.com/mmmyoso/2005/06/bronx_pizza.html


Looks like Bronx pizza made #1 on the Channel 10 news A list San Diego, in 2011, 2009, 2008, and 2007.

http://kgtv.cityvoter.com/best/pizza/cheap-eats/san-diego
http://kgtv.cityvoter.com/best/pizza/cheap-eats/san-diego/2009
http://kgtv.cityvoter.com/best/pizza/cheap-eats/san-diego/2008
http://kgtv.cityvoter.com/best/pizza/cheap-eats/san-diego/2007

Cityís Best san diego rates Luigiís pizzeria the best.

http://www.citysbest.com/san-diego/listings/pizzeria-luigi/

I wonder whether Bronx pizza or Luigiís pizza are the best.

In his article about Luigi: http://pizzerialuigi.com/about.html  it said he had his first pizza business in Poway, California.  Does anyone know about the other places he might have worked at making pizza?

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: selprop on September 10, 2011, 04:55:04 PM
Been following post, being from Boston and living in San Southern Cal for past 27 years first touch on Luigi's seeing the show on DDD. My wife and I went to give it a try,,, seeing nothing I have found has come close in Southern Cal to NYP...
First impression walking in,,, Place was not clean, it was a Sunday @ approx 1pm only 2 other people in place.
2 people working behind counter, working area behind counter again not clean,floor, working table,, boxes on it dough box next to it,, rags spread out. Pie's in display case trying to remember at least 6 or 7 to me all dried out, been sitting for awhile not appetizing at all. Per usual order Cheese. Bake time not timed,, but around 9 minutes from time they started on it to finish.. Wife's first impression she is originally from San Diego. She likes crispy but little moist throughout,,, her  thoughts,, crust very dry, up-shirt dry not that much flavor.. My impression  Crust very crispy rim very small and dry,,, up-skirt dry no flavor, try to fold just breaks in middle. To satisfy my curiosity I order a slice from display,, white pie ricotta,,, cheese very dry dough very dried out,,, seems as the pies where already cooked and than cooked again to heat up. Never went back...
Bronx Pizza......
We went another Sunday afternoon, around 1pm line outside of store,, waited to order about 5 minutes,,
pies in display all looking good seemed par baked, taken out few minutes before ready,except just a couple of cheese seemed to be there for a while,, strange for plain cheese, feel of back east with guy taking order and 5 guys behind him making pies,,ordered Cheese with basil.
Wife's impression, lots of cheese, flavor great,,, crust perfect,, just a little to droopy for her in center, but over all best she has had that she could remember since visiting NYC..
My impression,,, Place busy, people sitting all around in back, patio, taking out,, etc..
tables being wiped out and cleaned, actually guys who were making pies cleaning , actual time from order to receiving,, about 14 minutes.do not know bake time... Crust crisp with moist inside rim,, cheese very fresh tasting,, basil put on after pie was baked,,, just right amount of sauce, I don't care for alot wife does, perfect to fold over and eat. just a little to much salt for me,, as I do not add salt to anything so I can pick it up,, perfect for wife,,,
Overall to compare to Luigi's hand down Bronx is the winner,, again we all have different taste,
to compare the look of both pies,, you can literally see the different in just looking at both to see Bronx has that NY Pizza feel look,,, taste and atmosphere. Luigi's on scale 1-10  4 . Bronx 9.5 only thing missing is they did not shuffle the pie and yelled come it get it,, LOL... oven they use is Marsal,,,
We have gone there ever since,, always consistency with their pies, have not been there in few months just to busy lately.
I would say if there should be a clone for reverse engineering,, try Bronx.
As I said,, everyone has different taste,, this is my opinion.

Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on September 10, 2011, 05:26:23 PM
Been following post, being from Boston and living in San Southern Cal for past 27 years first touch on Luigi's seeing the show on DDD. My wife and I went to give it a try,,, seeing nothing I have found has come close in Southern Cal to NYP...
First impression walking in,,, Place was not clean, it was a Sunday @ approx 1pm only 2 other people in place.
2 people working behind counter, working area behind counter again not clean,floor, working table,, boxes on it dough box next to it,, rags spread out. Pie's in display case trying to remember at least 6 or 7 to me all dried out, been sitting for awhile not appetizing at all. Per usual order Cheese. Bake time not timed,, but around 9 minutes from time they started on it to finish.. Wife's first impression she is originally from San Diego. She likes crispy but little moist throughout,,, her  thoughts,, crust very dry, up-shirt dry not that much flavor.. My impression  Crust very crispy rim very small and dry,,, up-skirt dry no flavor, try to fold just breaks in middle. To satisfy my curiosity I order a slice from display,, white pie ricotta,,, cheese very dry dough very dried out,,, seems as the pies where already cooked and than cooked again to heat up. Never went back...
Bronx Pizza......
We went another Sunday afternoon, around 1pm line outside of store,, waited to order about 5 minutes,,
pies in display all looking good seemed par baked, taken out few minutes before ready,except just a couple of cheese seemed to be there for a while,, strange for plain cheese, feel of back east with guy taking order and 5 guys behind him making pies,,ordered Cheese with basil.
Wife's impression, lots of cheese, flavor great,,, crust perfect,, just a little to droopy for her in center, but over all best she has had that she could remember since visiting NYC..
My impression,,, Place busy, people sitting all around in back, patio, taking out,, etc..
tables being wiped out and cleaned, actually guys who were making pies cleaning , actual time from order to receiving,, about 14 minutes.do not know bake time... Crust crisp with moist inside rim,, cheese very fresh tasting,, basil put on after pie was baked,,, just right amount of sauce, I don't care for alot wife does, perfect to fold over and eat. just a little to much salt for me,, as I do not add salt to anything so I can pick it up,, perfect for wife,,,
Overall to compare to Luigi's hand down Bronx is the winner,, again we all have different taste,
to compare the look of both pies,, you can literally see the different in just looking at both to see Bronx has that NY Pizza feel look,,, taste and atmosphere. Luigi's on scale 1-10  4 . Bronx 9.5 only thing missing is they did not shuffle the pie and yelled come it get it,, LOL... oven they use is Marsal,,,
We have gone there ever since,, always consistency with their pies, have not been there in few months just to busy lately.
I would say if there should be a clone for reverse engineering,, try Bronx.
As I said,, everyone has different taste,, this is my opinion.



selprop,

Thanks for your post.  :) I had really wondered if Luigi's pizza or the Bronx pizza was the best.  I wonder how Luigi's pizza was when Guy was there.  It also makes me wonder if Luigi's pies slipped after he opened two pizza businesses.  The other thing I have wondered about is why DDD picked Luigi's pizzeria instead of Bronx pizza, since Bronx pizza was opened a lot longer than Luigi's.  Interesting to hear all you posted.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 10, 2011, 06:56:15 PM
selprop,

Sounds like you were there when Luigi's had an off day. Two other members of this board had good experiences. You might want to give Luigi another shot just to compare.

Another article about Luigi's & Bronx:

http://thefunfoodie.wordpress.com/2010/12/13/culinary-clash-1-ny-pizza-in-san-diego/
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on September 10, 2011, 10:34:42 PM
According to this piece that Norma cited, http://mmm-yoso.typepad.com/mmmyoso/2005/06/bronx_pizza.html, Bronx used bottled water as of the date of the article. It looks like Luigi adopted that idea also although he tied it into his experience when he lived in Italy.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 10, 2011, 11:18:03 PM
According to this piece that Norma cited, http://mmm-yoso.typepad.com/mmmyoso/2005/06/bronx_pizza.html, Bronx used bottled water as of the date of the article. It looks like Luigi adopted that idea also although he tied it into his experience when he lived in Italy.

Peter

Excerpt from one of the comments:

"Pizzeria Luigi's in Golden Hill is so much better than Bronx. The pie at Luigi's is more consistant. When you bite into the crust, there is a nice crunch then bread. Seems every other time I go to Bronx there is a burnt flavor (from not cleaning the flour from the oven) and the crust has the taste and texture of a saltine cracker. I recommend trying the Spinach/Ricotta slice with a little garlic sprinkled on top. Luigi's is NY style pizzia without the attitude."

It really does look like it's a head-to-head race and healthy competition down in San Diego. I wish we had anything like that going on in SF but the people over here are a bit too snobbish or too dense to even distinguish between UPN's pies, Pizza Hut and a NY-style, with a few exceptions.

But I want to be serious for a moment, before anyone thinks Luigi's is merely copying Bronx' pies. I don't think that's really the case. Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to protect Luigi - I have never even had his pizzas nor have I ever met him - but pizza making is a trade, just like car repair, plumbing or watch repair. You apply what you have learned from the person who taught you. There are people who are autodidacts but they are scarce in the professional field and barely make it.

My feeling is that Luigi, who also worked in Italy in the food business before moving to the U.S., has had already an extensive food background and just honed his pizza skills under the watch of the guys from Bronx, who might have taught him how to fine-tune pizza making. Does that make him a mere copier/replicator of Bronx' pies? I don't think so.

I think it's the media who have elevated the entire thing between Luigi's and Bronx. It would be interesting to see what both owners think of each other.

With that said, I keep focusing on Luigi's pies until I get one right like they show in the video... ;D
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: chickenparm on September 10, 2011, 11:26:57 PM
Not to change the subject,but it bugs me that the place is known to be a pigsty.There is no excuse for it.

It would not shock me if the folks making the video,brought in new equipment because the old greasy,or dirty equipment was not ideal for filming.Like Peter said,they had some shiny new stuff there.

How does a place that is known to be a filthy place to eat,pass inspections?
 ???



Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 11, 2011, 12:02:31 AM
Not to change the subject,but it bugs me that the place is known to be a pigsty.There is no excuse for it.

It would not shock me if the folks making the video,brought in new equipment because the old greasy,or dirty equipment was not ideal for filming.Like Peter said,they had some shiny new stuff there.

How does a place that is known to be a filthy place to eat,pass inspections?
 ???

Lack of oversight from the San Diego Health Department, I assume.

But I agree, if you're an owner worth his salt and proud of your trade and restaurant the shop should be spic and span. On the other hand, go to any 'authentic' restaurant in your local Chinatown area and you'll see rats, mice and roaches high-fiving each other on the table right in front of you. At least here in SF, no joke.

Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: selprop on September 11, 2011, 02:18:04 AM
selprop,

Sounds like you were there when Luigi's had an off day. Two other members of this board had good experiences. You might want to give Luigi another shot just to compare.

Another article about Luigi's & Bronx:

http://thefunfoodie.wordpress.com/2010/12/13/culinary-clash-1-ny-pizza-in-san-diego/

With do respect Off Day,,,,,,,,, not acceptable unclean establishment,,no need for rags with sauce, wet cleaning rags probably for cleaning tables off all being on prep table,,, tables with dried sauce,, crumbs,, not meaning plates or cups.
No excuse for several pies in display for being fully cooked it seemed and dried out when reheating.
I can understand my opinion and my wife's on the pizza as we all know everyone has a different opinion what they prefer or not.
I am not saying Luigi does not have a exceptional product, the proof is in the remarks and following he supposedly has,, which I did not see that day,, prime time,, people out the door not when I went,, as you said Off day,,,
Establishments are serving the public and have a criteria to follow, one being keep your place of business presentable. The customer is always right no matter what. I myself in 38 years of owning several
and dealing with the public with most have always no matter what leaned to their side. If they are unsatisfied they will not return, but the best policy is give them a reason not to discredit you to others.
With all the reviews people leave their is always going to be someone that is not going to be satisfied, hopefully there will be more that are then not. In this case Luigi's in this case has proved  more to the satisfied side than not by far.
But for me to give his establishment a second try to see if it stand up to the reputation and quality. I see no reason. If you came to me and I sold you a house, and did not explain the full contract, and afterwards you knowing because of an incident came up,, would you come back to me. If you came to me for a Haircut and I gave you something totally different than what you asked, because I had an off day  would you come back to me,,, If I sold you a car and gave you a warranty for 2 days as standard,, and a week later the tranny let go would you come back to me.. I am using these scenarios  because these are a few businesses I have now and need to be on top of my game and be upfront and give my clients the best I can as if I was being treated that way. In a few months my mobile food truck will be ready to go out and start serving the public and hopefully I can give the best product I know how to them and get more satisfied reviews than dissatisfied. I started out with WFO being put in and doing a survey and spending time and money and found that the majority would prefer NYP to WFO. So in the middle of my build I changed it. Myself being more comfortable with doing so because myself I prefer NY, I gave the public what they wanted, and hopefully they will follow.
Any one who opens a business or starts one always wishes for the best, it does not always go that way. I am a perfect example. All might sound great on the other side but believe me we all hope for the best and do our best to make it happen as long as the passion is there.
For Luigi he has showed what he can do and he does it very well as we here are trying to clone his perfection that is saying a whole lot. So one person as myself and my opinion does not make or break someone, and no one wants to hear anything negative, buy maybe it helps that person realized there might be a problem and want to change it.
Everyone here has a passion, a goal, a dream. There are always obstacles and ways to get thru them.
If I wake up everyday and have my health I won,, and no matter what happens the rest of the day, I will get thru it. I hope in no way I am offending anyone with my thoughts or words, nothing is meant to be.
The only thing I need to do as always is write a topic that is all correct English which I am not good at, especially my wife being an English Major and correcting all my wording,,, if she sees this before I send it which she won't. I will be in deep do,,,,,,,,,,
In all my ventures I have done,, I have never seen so many diverse people as on this site with all the intelligence in every aspect of life. I applaud each and every one of you, for giving what you have learned and shared. I respect not just one or selected few but all.

Respectfully,
Mark


Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 11, 2011, 06:35:19 PM
Mike,

I took a stab at recreating the seasonings for the Luigi pizza sauce as shown in the video and have set forth the ingredients and quantities below. However, first some comments and suggestions.

In recreating the Luigi seasoning mix, I used my mock-up bowl to weigh the ingredients that are shown in the video as being in small bowls such as those that were shown on the table to the left of the mixer. As noted below with the single asterisk, these are the Greek oregano, the black pepper, the garlic powder and the fresh basil. I did not see any bowls or other containers for the red pepper flakes or the salt, so I did my best to estimate those just by eyeballing them in the sauce container (at 4:12 and 4:16, respectively). What is important to keep in mind about the red pepper flakes is that there is not a lot of it in relation to the amount of tomatoes. For example, if there are four #10 cans of Stanislaus tomatoes in the sauce container in the video, weighing say, 8.5 pounds each, or about 34 pounds total, the scattering of red pepper flakes will have fairly minimal flavor or taste impact. At the 28-ounce tomato can level, it might only be a pinch or two.

There was also one bowl, for the grated Parmesan cheese, that seemed larger than the others in the video, as denoted below by the double asterisks. For example, if you look at the video at about 4:19, you will see that the Parmesan bowl is the only one that Luigi holds by two hands and it also looks large in relation to the size of the sauce container and the other bowls that were used to hold several of the other ingredients. The bowl with the garlic powder also looks large, at 4:18 in the video, but since the bowl of garlic powder is earlier shown on the table I can only assume that it was an odd camera angle or a closer camera shot that made the bowl seem larger.

I also discovered when I was doing my weighings that the weights of ingredients can vary depending on the source. For example, when I weighed oregano from a bottle, which I believe was of the Greek variety, the final value I got was higher than when I weighed dried oregano from my garden. I have what I believe to be a Greek variety of oregano growing in my garden but I always use an Italian (maybe Sicilian) oregano because I prefer it over the Greek variety. What I ended up using was the Greek oregano from the bottle since that seemed to come closest to what Luigi uses and it looks to have the texture and particle size as shown in the video (in the bowl at 4:12 and also at 4:13 on top of the tomatoes). But you should be aware that different dried oregano products can have different weights on a unit volume basis. The same may also apply to the garlic powder.

With respect to the Parmesan cheese, I did not have any on hand so I purchased the cheapest wedge of domestic Parmesan cheese that I could find in the supermarket today. I also checked out the Kraft grated Parmesan cheeses as well as a comparable house brand (a Safeway product). All of the cheese products I looked at, whether grated or not, had the same conversion data, specifically, 2 teaspoons weigh 5 grams. However, the Kraft and similar product have cellulose to minimize caking and also a preservative for flavor retention. The wedge of Parmesan cheese does not have those additives. It is hard to say how much Parmesan cheese is used other than that it looks like there is a fair amount of it by volume. I grated some of my Parmesan cheese into an 8Ē pie tin until the amount looked like what is shown in the video and got 60 grams, as noted below.

I also didnít have any fresh basil on hand and the supermarket I went to didnít have any either. So, I did the next best thing. When I got back home, I went out into my back yard where I have a bountiful crop of weeds growing. I found one weed in particular that had leaves of the same general size, shape and thickness as fresh basil leaves. I gathered several of them, chopped them into pieces of the same size as the chopped basil in the video, put them into my mock-up bowl to look like the chopped basil leaves shown at 4:22 in the video, and then weighed them. As a final step, I compared the weed version with real fresh basil and found that their weight/volume numbers were quite similar. The number I ended up with for the fresh basil is 7 grams. The good thing about fresh basil is that even if you are a bit heavy with it, it doesnít usually hurt anything. By contrast, with the dried oregano, and also with the garlic powder, you have to be careful as not to use too much. As a result, it might be a good idea to add the dried oregano and garlic powder gradually in stages until the desired taste profile is achieved.

With the above as background, here is the seasoning mix I came up with. If you need help converting weights to volumes for a sauce batch based on a 28-ounce can of tomatoes, let me know.  I have shown the weights of ingredients for a sauce batch using a 28-ounce can of tomatoes in parenthesis. If the seasoning mix works out, it should then be possible to come up with a bakerís percent format.

Red pepper flakes: 3 grams (a pinch or two between the thumb and forefinger)
*Greek oregano leaves: 8 grams (0.4 grams)
Salt: 11 grams (0.55 grams)
*Black pepper: 3 grams (0.15 grams)
*Garlic powder: 30 grams (1.5 grams)
**Grated Parmesan cheese: 58 grams (2.9 grams)
*Fresh, chopped basil: 7 grams (0.35 grams)
Total seasoning mix weight = 120 grams (9 grams)
* denotes that the ingredients are in small bowls of same size
** denotes that the bowl seems larger than the other bowls

Remember that the above numbers (the ones not in parentheses) are in relation to four #10 cans of Stanislaus tomatoes. If that assumption is wrong, then the numbers will have to be revised if we are able to get the correct amount of tomatoes. If my numbers are anywhere near correct, then I think that you can see that Luigiís sauce is not particularly highly seasoned.

Peter


Peter,

I assembled the sauce early this morning for tonight's bake and the numbers you posted are right on the money!

I used two 28oz cans of 6 in 1s and therefor doubled the amounts. I rounded the numbers up...

Greek Oregano:         1 gram
Sea salt:                    1.1 grams
Black pepper:             0.3 grams
Garlic powder:            3 grams
Parmesan cheese:     6 grams
Fresh Basil:                1 gram

and two pinches of red pepper flakes.

This is an excellent tasting sauce. It tastes very fresh, slightly sweet with a nice touch of oregano and garlic.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on September 11, 2011, 07:51:18 PM
I assembled the sauce early this morning for tonight's bake and the numbers you posted are right on the money!

Mike,

I'm glad that the numbers worked out for you. I tried my best to eyeball and weigh the ingredients carefully but when you are working from volume measurements taken visually from a video, you can't always be sure that the weighings are correct. It would be interesting to know if Luigi weighs any of his ingredients. I would think that it would make sense to make up a standardized seasoning mix for the pizza sauce using weights, but for the fresh basil, which would be added at the end as shown in the video. The only thing we saw weighed in the video was the dough balls.

I am pretty certain that Luigi uses the same grated Parmesan for the sauce as is put on the tables of his pizzeria for his patrons. That would be a foodservice quality grated Parmesan cheese. A typical Kraft grated Parmesan would be a reasonable substitute in a home settiing. Adding a better quality Parmesan cheese would be an improvement but it might have a different flavor profile over the inexpensive Parmesan pizza that Luigi no doubt uses.

I hope that the sauce tastes as well on the pizza as out of the bowl.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: chickenparm on September 11, 2011, 08:00:46 PM
Peter,Is there no sugar used in this sauce?

I know some places will use a little.Just wondering.

Mike,If you can,let me know how the sauce tastes the next day or 3 if you keep it in the fridge that long.
Im curious if the acidity changes much or if the flavors increase.
 :)


Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on September 11, 2011, 08:10:05 PM
Peter,Is there no sugar used in this sauce?

I know some places will use a little.Just wondering.

Bill,

No sugar is shown in the video as being added to the sauce. Remember, however, that Luigi uses Stanislaus fresh-pack tomatoes that are naturally sweeter than most canned tomatoes that are not of the fresh-pack variety.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 11, 2011, 08:33:23 PM
Mike,

I'm glad that the numbers worked out for you. I tried my best to eyeball and weigh the ingredients carefully but when you are working from volume measurements taken visually from a video, you can't always be sure that the weighings are correct. It would be interesting to know if Luigi weighs any of his ingredients. I would think that it would make sense to make up a standardized seasoning mix for the pizza sauce using weights, but for the fresh basil, which would be added at the end as shown in the video. The only thing we saw weighed in the video was the dough balls.

I am pretty certain that Luigi uses the same grated Parmesan for the sauce as is put on the tables of his pizzeria for his patrons. That would be a foodservice quality grated Parmesan cheese. A typical Kraft grated Parmesan would be a reasonable substitute in a home settiing. Adding a better quality Parmesan cheese would be an improvement but it might have a different flavor profile over the inexpensive Parmesan pizza that Luigi no doubt uses.

I hope that the sauce tastes as well on the pizza as out of the bowl.

Peter

Peter,

I really need to buy one of those small digital scales for small measurements below 1 gram. That's the main reason I had to round the numbers up except for the black pepper, which I basically eyeballed using 1/8 tsp which still might not be accurate.

As far as the Parmesan goes, I actually used a local brand, Marin Cheese Co., and is in fact grated Pecorino Romano which has a slightly more intense flavor. But I also have the Kraft on hand which I'll try with the next batch. I like the idea of a seasoning mix for the sauce and since you already posted the numbers previously, it'll be easy to measure and add to the sauce.

Let me see if I can put together a Baker's Percent version of it, using the sauce amount as a 100% value?!  :-\
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 11, 2011, 08:35:04 PM
Peter,Is there no sugar used in this sauce?

I know some places will use a little.Just wondering.

Mike,If you can,let me know how the sauce tastes the next day or 3 if you keep it in the fridge that long.
Im curious if the acidity changes much or if the flavors increase.
 :)


Bill,

I am sure I can, and will, let you know how the sauce is tomorrow and three days from now.  ;D

I'm also certain that the flavor will somewhat intensify once the herbs and spices have released their full potential.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: PizzaEater101 on September 12, 2011, 12:19:40 AM
Peter,

I really need to buy one of those small digital scales for small measurements below 1 gram. That's the main reason I had to round the numbers up except for the black pepper, which I basically eyeballed using 1/8 tsp which still might not be accurate.


My digital scale does not do fractions of grams, just whole numbers.  What scale can any of you recommend that is good for measuring . (point) measurements in grams?  I just wing it and I do pretty well but I'd rather be more accurate with a scale than can do fractions.  What I mean is if it calls for .25 that's 1/4 of a gram. 
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 12, 2011, 12:44:10 AM
My digital scale does not do fractions of grams, just whole numbers.  What scale can any of you recommend that is good for measuring . (point) measurements in grams?  I just wing it and I do pretty well but I'd rather be more accurate with a scale than can do fractions.  What I mean is if it calls for .25 that's 1/4 of a gram. 

PE101,

I just bought this one...

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0012LOQUQ

Measures as low as 0.01 grams. That's probably as low as it gets.

Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on September 12, 2011, 09:04:35 AM
I tried to figure out how to blend KASL with an all-purpose flour to get a targeted protein of 13.5% on the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at  http://foodsim.toastguard.com/ and I am not still getting how to work the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator to mix flours to get the right protein. 

This is the formula I did on the Expanded Dough Calculating Tool. I used a bowl residue of 1.5%  Now if I can just figure out how to use the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator, I guess I will try a Luigiís #1 attempt.  I guess I will also add a pinch or a little more of Vitamin C to the dough formula.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: scott123 on September 12, 2011, 09:32:45 AM
Norma, to hit a target of 13.5% protein for that formulation (308 g total flour)

253 g KASL
55 g Generic All Purpose Flour
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on September 12, 2011, 09:53:44 AM
Norma, to hit a target of 13.5% protein for that formulation (308 g total flour)

253 g KASL
55 g Generic All Purpose Flour

Scott,

Thanks so much for helping me understand how to use the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator.  :) I was making it harder than it is.  I wasn't sure what to do with the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator.  I kept putting different numbers in different places and was getting all fouled up.  :-D

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: scott123 on September 12, 2011, 10:01:17 AM
No problem Norma :) It's not the most intuitive of calculators- it took me a few minutes to figure out as well.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on September 12, 2011, 10:10:23 AM
No problem Norma :) It's not the most intuitive of calculators- it took me a few minutes to figure out as well.

Scott,

I never tried to use the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator before, and I sure didnít understand where the numbers were supposed to be put.  I could find the kinds of flours I wanted to mix, and had the first mass of the total amount of flour to be used in the right place, but didnít know where to add the targeted 13.5%  protein.  I guess since my understanding of math is limited, that is why I had all the problems.  :-D  At least now I will be able to understand how to use Novemberís tool.

Thanks again!  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on September 12, 2011, 12:45:54 PM
scott123, thanks for helping Norma on this one, especially since I offered to assist her in the use of the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator.

Norma, since you have the King Arthur all-purpose flour, do you want to take a stab at coming up with the numbers using that flour instead of a generic all-purpose flour?

A couple of other points about the tool. The two pull-down menus are the same and you can select the two ingredients using either sequence (but keep the A-B blocks below in order). If it so happens that the ingredients you are using are not listed in the pull-down menus, you can enter the protein values in the two % blocks below the pull-down menus (you have to select the two blocks by checking them). In some cases, one of the ingredients might be listed in a pull-down menu and the other is not. In that case, you can use a combination of pull-down menu and one of the % blocks.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: PizzaEater101 on September 12, 2011, 01:24:05 PM
PE101,

I just bought this one...

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0012LOQUQ

Measures as low as 0.01 grams. That's probably as low as it gets.



Mike, thank you very much for the link to that scale.  That price is really low too in addition to the increments the scale can do.  I will buy that one. 
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on September 12, 2011, 01:39:43 PM
If Mike tells us that he likes the clone Luigi pizza sauce on an actual pizza, I should be able to come up with a set of baker's percents for the Luigi clone sauce. I didn't think to convert my ingredient weights to volume measurements but, had I chosen to do so, my numbers would most likely have differed from those used by others with their specific set of ingredients, especially those from other suppliers. However, it does make sense for each person to do such conversions to simplify making the sauce in the future with the same ingredients, or for scaling purposes. This is one of those instances where, in a home setting, people are used to--and may prefer--volume measurements rather than weights, especially when the numbers are on the small side.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 12, 2011, 02:06:23 PM
Mike, thank you very much for the link to that scale.  That price is really low too in addition to the increments the scale can do.  I will buy that one. 

PE101,

I looked at other scales, too, but this one got really good reviews and for the price it's probably worth it. Also comes with a 10 year warranty.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 12, 2011, 02:24:14 PM
If Mike tells us that he likes the clone Luigi pizza sauce on an actual pizza, I should be able to come up with a set of baker's percents for the Luigi clone sauce. I didn't think to convert my ingredient weights to volume measurements but, had I chosen to do so, my numbers would most likely have differed from those used by others with their specific set of ingredients, especially those from other suppliers. However, it does make sense for each person to do such conversions to simplify making the sauce in the future with the same ingredients, or for scaling purposes. This is one of those instances where, in a home setting, people are used to--and may prefer--volume measurements rather than weights, especially when the numbers are on the small side.

Peter

Peter,

Tried the sauce last night on two pies. The sauce is dynamite. It had a bunch of hours, from 9am to around 8pm, to mature a little and the taste was exceptional.

However, I noticed one thing though over the course of the day...the sauce got a little thicker each time I checked and by the time I used it I had to add 1/4 cup of water to thin it out. Maybe that should be taken into consideration when coming up with a Baker's Percent conversion. More testing might also be in order.

But all that aside, the sauce is extremely good. Even my neighbor and his girlfriend, who received the first Luigi clone (Mona Lisa) last night, commented on it..."...sweet, nice touch of garlic, oregano and basil. Very fresh tasting."

Now to the pies themselves.

Crust was very good. I still need to get the thinness right but it had a nice structure, was easily foldable and made the same sounds you can hear in the video when the neighbor's GF bit into it. While I was over there, he put the Luigi video on his laptop to compare and noted that it was an identical pie except for the thickness of my crust, which was too much.

The bottom of the crust was nicely browned with a few dark spots and had a really nice crunch when you bit into it. The rim was also moderately browned compared to the pizza that came out of the pro oven. I need to go easier on the cheese, though, which brings up the question of how much Luigi actually uses, at least in his video.

I will make a few tweaks and see what happens with the next bake. The sauce, however, is pretty much set.

Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on September 12, 2011, 03:55:09 PM
Mike,

It looks like you are well on your way.

I think what you experienced with the sauce is the effect of gelling. That is usually because of the garlic. I remember reading about this phenomenon at the PMQ Think Tank, so I did a PMQTT search and found the thread on this subject at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=9106&hilit=. Originally, I thought that the problem was the use of fresh garlic but if you click on the Stanislaus link at the end of the abovereferenced thread, which was posted by Steve Rouse of Stanislaus, you will see that the problem can occur with many forms of garlic, including dry forms. You can perhaps get around the problem by either adding the garlic powder just before you are ready to use the sauce (which may yield a less pronounced flavor impact as a result) or nuke it in the microwave for a bit to see if that solves the problem. If the solution ends up with the need to add more water, then that is what you do. However, because of the uniqueness of this problem, I would not change the formulation of the sauce from a bakerís percent standpoint.

You mentioned that when your friendís girlfriend bit into the crust, there was the same sound as in the Luigi video. I used to think that that was the real sound until scott r told us, at Reply 22 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14087.msg141782/topicseen.html#msg141782, that often the crunch sound is dubbed in during post production.

On the matter of the amount of cheese, you will have to experiment with that. It looks like Luigi free throws the cheese and toppings so you will have to try to emulate what you see in the video, and note the amount of cheese (you may have to build your pizza on the scale, using the tare feature as necessary). It would also help if someone purchased a basic cheese pizza from Luigiís place, or maybe one with pepperoni, and weigh the pizza (and note the number of pepperoni slices if a pepperoni pizza is purchased). We believe we know the weight of the dough (18 ounces), and we can estimate the weight loss during baking (which you might test sometimes even in your home oven), so the total pizza weight might help us zero in on the amounts of sauce and cheese to use. If your clone sauce is like Luigiís, then that might help in the analysis. To get closer on the sauce and the proper hydration, you would perhaps have to play around with the Stanislaus tomatoes that Luigi uses, as shown in photos that have been referenced earlier in this thread.

I am not surprised by the flavor impact of the garlic and oregano. In the video, these ingredients appear to be used in larger quantities relative to the other sauce ingredients. Also, when I did my clone tests for the Papa Johnís pizza sauce, I saw that garlic and oregano were much more noticeable in the sauce the day after the sauce was made than when they were first added to the sauce. That taught me to go a bit lighter on the oregano and garlic powder.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 12, 2011, 04:27:09 PM
Quote
I think what you experienced with the sauce is the effect of gelling. That is usually because of the garlic. I remember reading about this phenomenon at the PMQ Think Tank, so I did a PMQTT search and found the thread on this subject at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=9106&hilit=. Originally, I thought that the problem was the use of fresh garlic but if you click on the Stanislaus link at the end of the abovereferenced thread, which was posted by Steve Rouse of Stanislaus, you will see that the problem can occur with many forms of garlic, including dry forms. You can perhaps get around the problem by either adding the garlic powder just before you are ready to use the sauce (which may yield a less pronounced flavor impact as a result) or nuke it in the microwave for a bit to see if that solves the problem. If the solution ends up with the need to add more water, then that is what you do. However, because of the uniqueness of this problem, I would not change the formulation of the sauce from a bakerís percent standpoint.

Peter,

Interesting tidbit about the garlic. Just finished reading the post on the PMQ board. I'll try nuking the garlic next time and see what happens. If that doesn't work then water has to be used. At first I thought it was the Pecorino Romano I used that thickened the sauce over the course of the day. Maybe both, garlic and cheese?

Quote
You mentioned that when your friendís girlfriend bit into the crust, there was the same sound as in the Luigi video. I used to think that that was the real sound until scott r told us, at Reply 22 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14087.msg141782/topicseen.html#msg141782, that often the crunch sound is dubbed in during post production.

I've read that, too, but it really did sound like in the video.  ;D

Quote
On the matter of the amount of cheese, you will have to experiment with that. It looks like Luigi free throws the cheese and toppings so you will have to try to emulate what you see in the video, and note the amount of cheese (you may have to build your pizza on the scale, using the tare feature as necessary). It would also help if someone purchased a basic cheese pizza from Luigiís place, or maybe one with pepperoni, and weigh the pizza (and note the number of pepperoni slices if a pepperoni pizza is purchased). We believe we know the weight of the dough (18 ounces), and we can estimate the weight loss during baking (which you might test sometimes even in your home oven), so the total pizza weight might help us zero in on the amounts of sauce and cheese to use. If your clone sauce is like Luigiís, then that might help in the analysis. To get closer on the sauce and the proper hydration, you would perhaps have to play around with the Stanislaus tomatoes that Luigi uses, as shown in photos that have been referenced earlier in this thread.

It's funny that you mentioned to count the pepperoni slices. I've done that yesterday using the video for the Mona Lisa pie and also for the Meat Lover's. If I counted correctly and they showed all the pepperoni slices, the number hovered around 20-22 slices per 18" pie, although some shots were obscured by Luigi's hands. It could be more or less pepperoni.

Regarding the cheese, I tried to eyeball it yesterday and adjusted the amount to a 16" pie but I think it was still a bit too much. I'll keep experimenting with various amounts.

I have never used Stanislaus products. I would have to check with Armando and find out if he can order a couple of 7/11 cans for me. If not, which product would you suggest comes close? 6in1s is what I used yesterday.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on September 12, 2011, 05:08:19 PM
I have never used Stanislaus products. I would have to check with Armando and find out if he can order a couple of 7/11 cans for me. If not, which product would you suggest comes close? 6in1s is what I used yesterday.

Mike,

The only Stanislaus tomatoes that I saw in photos attributed to Luigi's are the Full-Red Extra Heavy Tomato Puree and the 7/11 Ground Tomatoes (http://www.stanislaus.com/products/real-italian-products/from-scratch-products#11). We don't really know how Luigi is using those products. It could be individually or in combination (see, for example, the robozig PMQTT post at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4434&p=24786&hilit=#p24767), and possibly Luigi thins out the sauce with water even though Stanislaus frowns upon doing this. There is nothing in the video to suggest that Luigi thins out the tomatoes with water.

The closest Stanislaus tomato product to the Escalon 6-and-1s are the Stanislaus Tomato Magic Ground Tomatoes (http://www.stanislaus.com/products/real-italian-products/from-scratch-products#Magic). However, the Stanislaus website says that the 7/11 Ground Tomato product "contains bits of skin and more tomato pectin (for a homemade texture) than does Tomato Magic." If you look at the Stanislaus Nutrition Information for the three tomato products, especially the serving size weights, you will see that they are not of the same consistency, and that #10 cans of the three products will have different weights. I don't know how to advise you on which Stanislaus product to locate and use.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 12, 2011, 05:22:38 PM
Mike,

The only Stanislaus tomatoes that I saw in photos attributed to Luigi's are the Full-Red Extra Heavy Tomato Puree and the 7/11 Ground Tomatoes (http://www.stanislaus.com/products/real-italian-products/from-scratch-products#11). We don't really know how Luigi is using those products. It could be individually or in combination (see, for example, the robozig PMQTT post at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4434&p=24786&hilit=#p24767), and possibly Luigi thins out the sauce with water even though Stanislaus frowns upon doing this. There is nothing in the video to suggest that Luigi thins out the tomatoes with water.

The closest Stanislaus tomato product to the Escalon 6-and-1s are the Stanislaus Tomato Magic Ground Tomatoes (http://www.stanislaus.com/products/real-italian-products/from-scratch-products#Magic). However, the Stanislaus website says that the 7/11 Ground Tomato product "contains bits of skin and more tomato pectin (for a homemade texture) than does Tomato Magic." If you look at the Stanislaus Nutrition Information for the three tomato products, especially the serving size weights, you will see that they are not of the same consistency, and that #10 cans of the three products will have different weights. I don't know how to advise you on which Stanislaus product to locate and use.

Peter

Peter,

I just did a quick search on the Chowhound board and 6in1's and Stanislaus were both mentioned. But I found this reply interesting:

http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/366213#2251891

Btw, Pizzamking.com was also mentioned:

http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/366213#2248536

Restaurant depot carries the 7/11 which means I might have to go through my pizza guy in order to get them.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 12, 2011, 05:59:57 PM
Peter,Is there no sugar used in this sauce?

I know some places will use a little.Just wondering.

Mike,If you can,let me know how the sauce tastes the next day or 3 if you keep it in the fridge that long.
Im curious if the acidity changes much or if the flavors increase.
 :)


Bill,

To report back on the acidity of the sauce...no changes since yesterday. There's no noticeable increase of the acidity level whatsoever, which is good. The sauce has still the same slightly sweet, fresh flavor.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on September 12, 2011, 06:58:35 PM

Norma, since you have the King Arthur all-purpose flour, do you want to take a stab at coming up with the numbers using that flour instead of a generic all-purpose flour?

A couple of other points about the tool. The two pull-down menus are the same and you can select the two ingredients using either sequence (but keep the A-B blocks below in order). If it so happens that the ingredients you are using are not listed in the pull-down menus, you can enter the protein values in the two % blocks below the pull-down menus (you have to select the two blocks by checking them). In some cases, one of the ingredients might be listed in a pull-down menu and the other is not. In that case, you can use a combination of pull-down menu and one of the % blocks.

Peter

Peter,

I took a stab at the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator using KASL and King Arthur all-purpose flour.  I got 222.084 grams of KASL and 86.366 grams of King Arthur all-purpose flour.

Thanks for the other pointers on how to use the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator.  Iíll see if the future if I can figure out how to use the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator if a flour isnít listed. 

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on September 12, 2011, 07:03:05 PM
Mike,

I agree with Peter, your Luigi's clone does look a lot like a Luigi's pizza!  :)  Nice job.  :chef:

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on September 12, 2011, 07:11:07 PM
I tried to mixed my dough like Luigi did in the video, but the only difference was I did rehydrate the ADY in a little warm water before adding it to the rest of the water. I mixed in my Kitchen Aid mixer on speed one and two.  The dough was somewhat sticky after mixing, but I left it sit for about 10 minutes in the container, with the lid on.  The reason I did that was when mixing dough at market it is always sticky coming out of the mixer. Until I scale all the dough it does become less sticky.  I was thinking maybe Luigi might do the same thing as letting the dough sit a little before scaling and balling. I didnít see that on the video. I sure donít know if that is what he does, but I found my doughs become less sticky if they sit for as little as10 minutes.  The dough did ball well and it didnít feel like 65% hydration.  I didnít oil the dough ball, but just floured it.

Dough ball right after it was mixed and then 7 Ĺ hrs. later.

I did use KASL and GM all-purpose flour in the formula.

I will be using some Stanislaus Super Heavy Pizza sauce tomorrow.  I am not sure of how much ingredients to add to the Super Heavy Pizza sauce, since I will only be using enough sauce for one pizza.  I also will only be making a cheese pizza.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 12, 2011, 07:35:30 PM
Norma,

Dough looks great! I'm anxious to see the outcome in your market oven.  :chef:
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: chickenparm on September 12, 2011, 08:01:19 PM
Thanks for letting me know about the sauce Mike.

Btw,did you taste it cold,straight outta the fridge or warmed up?
 :)

Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: chickenparm on September 12, 2011, 08:01:40 PM
Look forward to your results Norma!
 :)
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on September 12, 2011, 08:11:15 PM
Dough ball right after it was mixed and then 7 Ĺ hrs. later.

Norma,

Was the 7 1/2 hours at room temperature or in the refrigerated unit?

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on September 12, 2011, 08:20:53 PM
Norma,

Dough looks great! I'm anxious to see the outcome in your market oven.  :chef:

Thanks Mike!  :) I sure have no idea how my deck oven will bake the pizza.

Norma

Look forward to your results Norma!
 :)


Thanks Bill!   :) I don't normally make pizzas with the lower TF this dough had.

Norma

Norma,

Was the 7 1/2 hours at room temperature or in the refrigerated unit?

Peter

Peter,

The dough has been in my refrigerator since I balled it.  I probably won't be making the pizza until early tomorrow afternoon.  I didn't want to take a chance on the dough overfermenting.  The final dough temperature was 78.3 degrees F.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 12, 2011, 10:36:55 PM
Norma,

What I'm most curious about is if you will get better crust coloration with your dough than I did with mine. Same goes for oven spring.

You might be able to get better oven spring since you are using a 65% hydration whereas I used 63% as you can see here  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg152489.html#msg152489

Looking forward to your assessment.  :)
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on September 13, 2011, 06:51:26 AM
Norma,

What I'm most curious about is if you will get better crust coloration with your dough than I did with mine. Same goes for oven spring.

You might be able to get better oven spring since you are using a 65% hydration whereas I used 63% as you can see here  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg152489.html#msg152489

Looking forward to your assessment.  :)

Mike,

I have no idea about how my crust coloration will turn out.  That is something I have problems with in my deck oven, with different doughs.  Usually oven spring, at least in my experiences in my deck oven all depends mostly on how I open the dough balls.  Luigiís pizzas really donít look like they have a lot of oven spring or crust coloration in different pictures I have looked at. I also made an attempt at a Mackís pizza for today.  That hydration is 55% and that dough has a lot of oil in the formula.  That dough even before in my attempts had to be really pressed out good before I opened the dough, or it even wanted to get oven spring.  Donít know what will happen with that today either.  In my experience so many things can contribute to oven spring.  Donít except success on my first attempt.  I have seen many problems with different dough formulas.  Each formula I have tried can produce so many different results in how the dough is mixed, final dough temperature, fermentation method, yeast used, and so many other variables.  To give you an example when using some of Peter Reinhart doughs, I did have problems at first with the higher hydrations, until I learned how to manage the mix and handle the dough.  I am sure Luigiís dough wonít be any different because it is a whole different formula.  :-D

Did you ever notice you got better oven spring with higher hydration doughs?

Pictures of the dough ball top and bottom this morning.  All it looks like is the dough ball is getting flatter and spreading out a little.  Donít know what that means either.  :-\

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: November on September 13, 2011, 07:59:11 PM
Norma, to hit a target of 13.5% protein for that formulation (308 g total flour)

253 g KASL
55 g Generic All Purpose Flour

A tutorial of sorts has been around on this forum for a while.  Peter's post followed by my post:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4340.msg36280.html#msg36280

To the dissatisfaction of some, I haven't upgraded the calculator to read people's minds.  I didn't want to overstate its purpose as a "flour" calculator, or provide instructions which support that notion, because I use it more often for substances other than flour/protein.  It is a generic calculator (with various flours added only for the convenience of this audience) much in the same way a TI-85 is a generic scientific calculator with functions like square root and tangent.  Few calculator manufacturers provide math classes or an explanatory interface.  If you know the math already, that kind of interface (a wizard) just gets in the way or becomes cluttered.

Like the other calculators, it is used in a linear fashion.  You start at the top, read the labels, and enter or select the inputs.  To be absolutely clear, "or" means one and not the other, and "and" means both.  Yellow-green fields are for output, just like generic LCD calculators.

- red.november
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on September 13, 2011, 10:00:34 PM
The attempt for a Luigiís pizza today went okay. Steve and I made the pie about 3:40 pm today.  The dough ball sat beside my deck oven for 2 hrs. to warm-up.  The temperature beside my deck oven was 92 degree F. The dough ball was easy to open to 18Ē, but I didnít toss it.  Since I never tasted a pie at Luigiís pizzeria, I am not sure if this pie was anything like Luigiís pie or not.  I added fresh basil to my regular tomato sauce.  My regular tomato sauce  (Stanislaus Saporito Super Heavy Pizza Sauce with basil) has all the other ingredients added, except the fresh basil, but I donít know if the amount of added ingredients to my regular tomato sauce are in line with Luigiís sauce.  Steve and I used ĺ lb. of blended mozzarellas as the cheeses for the 18ď pizza.  This pie took 5 minutes to bake at about 525 degrees F, in my deck oven.

This is a video of Steve cutting the pie. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQN3Yr-1wA4

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on September 13, 2011, 10:03:03 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on September 13, 2011, 10:05:38 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on September 13, 2011, 10:07:04 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on September 13, 2011, 10:07:44 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on September 13, 2011, 10:15:10 PM
Norma,

The pizza looks pretty good to me. I know it is a different NY style for you but how did you and your taste testers like it? Also, are there any observations or comments to pass on based on your test? And was there a reason why you didn't toss and spin the skin?

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on September 13, 2011, 10:45:38 PM
Norma,

The pizza looks pretty good to me. I know it is a different NY style for you but how did you and your taste testers like it? Also, are there any observations or comments to pass on based on your test? And was there a reason why you didn't toss and spin the skin?

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for saying the Luigiís attempt looks pretty good to you.  To explain what Steve, Jeff, Mark, I and other taste testers thought of this pizza, all of us preferred my preferment Lehmann NY style pizzas.  The Luigiís attempt did have a nice crunch on the bottom crust and was different, but there wasnít a lot of taste in the crust.  I would have thought for the amount of time I did let the dough ferment there would have been more taste in the crust.  I guess my taste testers and I are used to a dough that is different. Never tasting a real Luigiís pizza is also a problem.  I will never really know if I come close to a Luigís pizza in the terms of taste of the crust.  

I think I could have tossed the dough, but didnít want to try on the first attempt.  I donít even know if that is how a Luigiís pie is suppose to sound when the crust is cut.  

I donít know what comments to pass on from my first attempt, except your Luigiís #1 formula did work out well, in terms of the dough fermenting okay and the dough being easy to handle.  I had thought the crust would be too thin to brown right, but that didnít seem to be much of a problem.  I usually try my first attempt on any pies with just cheese and sauce, but I think the Luigiís attempt could handle more dressings easily.  The fresh basil, added to the sauce did add a nice taste to the whole pizza

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on September 13, 2011, 10:55:38 PM
Norma,

Maybe we can get Guy Fieri to do a DDD segment at your "dive" at Root's Country Market. Then we can try to reverse engineer your preferment Lehmann dough formulation from the video :-D.

Thanks for running the test.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Jackie Tran on September 13, 2011, 11:00:16 PM
Norma, your pie looks great and the audio from the video sounded great as well.  I like the crunchy bottoms myself.  I was impress that your Luigi clone didn't end up looking like one of your Lehmann pies.  If you want more flavor in the Luigi clone, you can always employ the preferment method you use for your Lehman dough to the this Luigi clone formula or replace the yeast with a starter.  For fun, you can also take one of your Lehman doughs and stretch it thin as you would making a Luigi pie and see if that gives you a different than usual texture.  Nice job, Norma.

Chau
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on September 13, 2011, 11:11:27 PM
Norma,

Maybe we can get Guy Fieri to do a DDD segment at your "dive" at Root's Country Market. Then we can try to reverse engineer your preferment Lehmann dough formulation from the video :-D.

Thanks for running the test.

Peter

Peter,

Lol, no one would have any problems reverse engineering my preferment Lehmann dough.   :-D  My "dive" at market, (in my taste testers opinions and mine) can produce a better tasting pie, than the one I attempted today. 

Do you think I should try the Luigi's #1 formula again, or try one of your other Luigi's formulas for next week?

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 13, 2011, 11:18:01 PM
Norma,

Excellent job!! Great video and pics, too!  ;D

I am seriously stoked, especially by the sound in the video when Steve cut into the pie. That was exactly I got from my neighbor's GF when she bit into it.

You oven did a much better job then the pro oven from my pizza guy. Could it be the smaller size? Luigi, when the video was shot, used a smaller oven and then upgraded.

Regarding the flavor, Chau had some good & sound advice for you but you might just want to lower the yeast amount in the Luigi #1 clone and let it ferment a little longer, perhaps 36 hours instead of 24.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: chickenparm on September 13, 2011, 11:21:20 PM
Super Nice work Norma! The pizza looks tasty to me,I love the way the bottom is cooked too!

Thanks for participating for us!

:chef:


Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on September 13, 2011, 11:22:30 PM
Norma, your pie looks great and the audio from the video sounded great as well.  I like the crunchy bottoms myself.  I was impress that your Luigi clone didn't end up looking like one of your Lehmann pies.  If you want more flavor in the Luigi clone, you can always employ the preferment method you use for your Lehman dough to the this Luigi clone formula or replace the yeast with a starter.  For fun, you can also take one of your Lehman doughs and stretch it thin as you would making a Luigi pie and see if that gives you a different than usual texture.  Nice job, Norma.

Chau

Chau,

Thanks for your nice comments!  :) I donít think I am going to try to add a preferment or a starter, to any of Peterís Luigiís formulas.  That would be added work, and I am getting lazy to do too many experiments. I did like the crunch on the pie.

My preferment Lehmann dough is full of tiny bubbles.  Even when I try to roll it out with a rolling pin, it still has oven spring.  Today I did stretch my preferment Lehmann dough balls to 18Ē.  Those pies still had oven spring and didnít get anything like the Luigiís pie.  Each variable at least for me, does something different in a pie.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 13, 2011, 11:25:08 PM
Thanks for letting me know about the sauce Mike.

Btw,did you taste it cold,straight outta the fridge or warmed up?
 :)



Bill,

I did it both ways. No change. Great sauce, that's all I can say. I personally don't like sauces with a high acidity level and this one is right up my alley.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on September 13, 2011, 11:32:25 PM
Norma,

Excellent job!! Great video and pics, too!  ;D

I am seriously stoked, especially by the sound in the video when Steve cut into the pie. That was exactly I got from my neighbor's GF when she bit into it.

You oven did a much better job then the pro oven from my pizza guy. Could it be the smaller size? Luigi, when the video was shot, used a smaller oven and then upgraded.

Regarding the flavor, Chau had some good & sound advice for you but you might just want to lower the yeast amount in the Luigi #1 clone and let it ferment a little longer, perhaps 36 hours instead of 24.

Mike,

Thanks for your kind words.  :) I am glad your are stoked by the sound in the video when Steve cut the pie.  Interesting that is exactly what you got from your neighborís GF when she bit into your pie.  Sounds like your home oven gets about the same results as my deck oven.

I have no idea if the size of the oven matters when baking any pie.  I know Chau always has good advice. I might try to use less yeast in my next attempt.

How did your Luigiís crusts taste?  Were they better than most of the pizzas you tried before?

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on September 13, 2011, 11:34:12 PM
Super Nice work Norma! The pizza looks tasty to me,I love the way the bottom is cooked too!

Thanks for participating for us!

:chef:



Bill,

Thank you also for the kind words!  :)  Good to hear you like a crunchy bottom too.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: chickenparm on September 13, 2011, 11:44:19 PM
Bill,

I did it both ways. No change. Great sauce, that's all I can say. I personally don't like sauces with a high acidity level and this one is right up my alley.

Mike,

Thanks for letting me know about the sauce.I will try the recipe soon.
 :)

-Bill
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 13, 2011, 11:46:31 PM
Mike,

Thanks for your kind words.  :) I am glad your are stoked by the sound in the video when Steve cut the pie.  Interesting that is exactly what you got from your neighborís GF when she bit into your pie.  Sounds like your home oven gets about the same results as my deck oven.

I have no idea if the size of the oven matters when baking any pie.  I know Chau always has good advice. I might try to use less yeast in my next attempt.

How did your Luigiís crusts taste?  Were they better than most of the pizzas you tried before?

Norma

Norma,

Just like you, I don't really have much to compare to crust-wise except for taking a field trip to San Diego and see, feel and taste for myself. The bummer is work does prevent me from doing so right now. With the next chance I get to have a few days off, I'll take myself on a road trip down scenic HWY 101 and see for myself.

But judging from the video, Luigi's falls into the category of the NY-style pies I have had in SF, mainly Avellino's. Marcello's is a different animal, not much bit still a bit different. Their crust is a bit softer and more airy although on a good day, it shows some incredible charring on the bottom.

Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 13, 2011, 11:47:29 PM
Mike,

Thanks for letting me know about the sauce.I will try the recipe soon.
 :)

-Bill


Bill,

Anytime. Please let us know about your findings.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on September 13, 2011, 11:53:26 PM
Norma,

Just like you, I don't really have much to compare to crust-wise except for taking a field trip to San Diego and see, feel and taste for myself. The bummer is work does prevent me from doing so right now. With the next chance I get to have a few days off, I'll take myself on a road trip down scenic HWY 101 and see for myself.

But judging from the video, Luigi's falls into the category of the NY-style pies I have had in SF, mainly Avellino's. Marcello's is a different animal, not much bit still a bit different. Their crust is a bit softer and more airy although on a good day, it shows some incredible charring on the bottom.



Mike,

Thanks for explaining that Luigiís does fall into the category of the NY style pies you had in SF.  Hope you get to try a real Luigiís pie someday. 

Maybe a member that has tried a real Luigiís pie can give us some more clues how a real Luigiís crust tastes.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 14, 2011, 12:20:22 AM
Norma,

Quick question. Do you know how much cheese you used by any chance?
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on September 14, 2011, 07:36:30 AM
Norma,

Quick question. Do you know how much cheese you used by any chance?

Mike,

Steve and I did weigh the mozzarella blend we used.  I posted at Reply 356 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg153005.html#msg153005  that we used ĺ lb. of the blended mozzarellas.  If anyone is interested we also used .778 lbs. of sauce.  In Steveís and my opinion, that amount of sauce was too much for the 18Ē Luigiís attempt, but we had already poured it on the opened skin after we weighed it, so there was no way of removing any sauce.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on September 14, 2011, 10:05:12 AM
Do you think I should try the Luigi's #1 formula again, or try one of your other Luigi's formulas for next week?

Norma,

Itís entirely up to you. I am pretty confident that both Luigi #2 and Luigi #3 (Reply 177 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg151870.html#msg151870) will work but because they contain less yeast in relation to the amounts of flour (30- and 32-pounds, respectively), they will most likely need a longer fermentation. Of course, that can be good and might even produce better results than the one-day cold fermentation version you made. I think Luigi #4 has too little salt to be worth trying.

One of the interesting aspects of Luigi #2 is that it calls for bleached flour (but not bromated). That is the only version of the Luigi clone doughs that calls for bleached flour. As was earlier reported by Gene (Jet-deck), Luigi does not use bleached flour, and maybe never did use it, not even for the video. Luigi #2 came about only because we didnít know what size bag of flour he was using in the video. If you have a bleached but not bromated high-gluten flour, it could be lowered in protein using one of your other flours (preferably also bleached and unbromated) to use to try out Luigi #2. Otherwise, I suppose you could use a bromated high-gluten flour. That would make for an interesting experiment just to see if Luigiís dough works better with a bromated flour.

One of the interesting features of your Luigi #1 clone pizza is that you got good crust browning with very little added sugar. Maybe your oven was a factor, so it might still make sense to use more sugar in a home environment.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on September 14, 2011, 11:44:42 AM
Norma,

Itís entirely up to you. I am pretty confident that both Luigi #2 and Luigi #3 (Reply 177 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg151870.html#msg151870) will work but because they contain less yeast in relation to the amounts of flour (30- and 32-pounds, respectively), they will most likely need a longer fermentation. Of course, that can be good and might even produce better results than the one-day cold fermentation version you made. I think Luigi #4 has too little salt to be worth trying.

One of the interesting aspects of Luigi #2 is that it calls for bleached flour (but not bromated). That is the only version of the Luigi clone doughs that calls for bleached flour. As was earlier reported by Gene (Jet-deck), Luigi does not use bleached flour, and maybe never did use it, not even for the video. Luigi #2 came about only because we didnít know what size bag of flour he was using in the video. If you have a bleached but not bromated high-gluten flour, it could be lowered in protein using one of your other flours (preferably also bleached and unbromated) to use to try out Luigi #2. Otherwise, I suppose you could use a bromated high-gluten flour. That would make for an interesting experiment just to see if Luigiís dough works better with a bromated flour.

One of the interesting features of your Luigi #1 clone pizza is that you got good crust browning with very little added sugar. Maybe your oven was a factor, so it might still make sense to use more sugar in a home environment.

Peter


Peter,

I will try the Luigiís #2 formula you set-forth, in my next attempt.  I agree that using a bromated flour would be an interesting experiment, even though Luigiís doesnít use bromated flour.  I probably will try the ADM bromated flour as the one flour in my next attempt.  I have to look what protein the ADM bromated flour has.

I have no idea why my Luigiís attempt got good bottom crust browning.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 14, 2011, 11:50:30 AM
Mike,

Steve and I did weigh the mozzarella blend we used.  I posted at Reply 356 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg153005.html#msg153005  that we used ĺ lb. of the blended mozzarellas.  If anyone is interested we also used .778 lbs. of sauce.  In Steveís and my opinion, that amount of sauce was too much for the 18Ē Luigiís attempt, but we had already poured it on the opened skin after we weighed it, so there was no way of removing any sauce.

Norma

Norma,

Thanks for the amounts. I must have missed that in all this excitement  ;D

I still had two doughballs in the fridge of the Luigi #1 clone from Saturday and baked them off last night. First I thought the dough was blown and ready to be scrapped but I figured it can't hurt to re-ball and see what happens. Long story short, it was a great crust. Nice flavor, crunch and chew. The coloration wasn't bad, either.

One thing I noticed though was that the cheese started to break down. It created visible strains, almost like a net or web, on top of the pie. I don't know where that comes from or why that happens but it didn't look too good.

Overall, though, I think we're getting much closer to the original. And a longer fermentation is probably the way to go.

Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on September 14, 2011, 04:48:53 PM
Mike,

After you gave a thumbs up for the Luigi clone pizza sauce formulation I came up with at Reply 228 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg152091.html#msg152091, I decided to go back to the Stanislaus website and to tighten up on my numbers for the Full-Red Extra Heavy Tomato Puree (http://www.stanislaus.com/_pdfs/Full-Red-Pizza-Sauce.pdf) and the 7/11 Ground Tomatoes (http://www.stanislaus.com/_pdfs/7-11-Ground-Tomatoes.pdf). These are the only two Stanislaus tomato products that appear in photos taken of Luigiís pizzeria. I also decided to add the Escalon 6-in-1s, which you used, and the Tomato Magic (http://www.stanislaus.com/_pdfs/Tomato-Magic-Ground-Tomatoes.pdf), which is considered to be Stanislausí counterpart product to the 6-in-1s. The reason for doing the analysis is to come up with a set of bakerís percents that might be used to emulate Luigiís pizza sauce using any one of the above products in any desired weight.

For background purposes, here are the weights of the four tomato products mentioned above, in #10 cans:

Full-Red Extra Heavy Tomato Puree: 6 lb, 11 ounces (77 ounces/2182.95 grams)
7/11 Ground Tomatoes: 6 lb, 9 ounces (75 ounces/2126.25 grams)
Tomato Magic: 6 lb, 10 ounces (76 ounces/2154.6 grams)
Escalon 6-in-1s: 6 lb, 9 ounces (75 ounces/2126 grams)

As you can see, the four products have quite similar weights. You might also recall that we speculated from the video and photos that Luigi uses four #10 cans to tomatoes to make a batch of pizza sauce. My previous numbers were predicated on the Luigi pizza sauce being made from either the Stanislaus Full-Red Extra Heavy Tomato Puree or the 7/11 Ground Tomatoes, either alone or possibly in combination, but totaling four #10 cans. Since these two products are similar in weight, as are the other two tomato products, I think it is safe to use a number like 76 ounces (2154.6 grams) times four for bakerís percent calculation purposes for the tomatoes. So, the tomato part of the bakerís percent recipe is 304 ounces/8618.4 grams). It shouldnít matter much which of the above four products is used or the quantities. One can use a single #10 can or a single 28-ounce can of tomatoes, or any other weight.

Based on the weights of the various sauce ingredients I used to come up with the Luigi clone pizza sauce, this is what I get as a generic bakerís percent version:

100%, Stanislaus or Escalon fresh-pack tomatoes (any weight, in ounces or grams)
0.04%, Crushed red pepper flakes
0.093%, Greek oregano leaves (bottled)
0.13%, Salt (table salt, Mortonís)
0.04%, Ground black pepper
0.35%, Garlic powder, McCormick's
0.67%, Grated Parmesan cheese
0.08%, Fresh, chopped basil

To give a simple example using a 28-ounce (793.8 grams) can of tomatoes, the amounts of the ingredients to use are as follows:

28-ounces (793.8 grams) of canned tomatoes
0.32 grams Crushed red pepper flakes (this will be about 2-3 pinches)
0.74 grams Greek oregano (bottled)
1 gram Salt (table salt, Mortonís)
0.32 grams Ground black pepper
2.78 grams Garlic powder, McCormick's
5.3 grams Grated Parmesan cheese
0.64 grams Fresh, chopped basil
Total weight of seasoning mix (without the tomatoes): 11.1 grams

As one can see, the bigger the pizza sauce batch size, the easier the numbers get to work with and to weigh out the ingredients. It is perhaps possible to make up a much larger quantity of seasoning mix, except for the fresh, chopped basil, and store it in a dry place. However, the grated Parmesan cheese will have to be amenable to incorporation into the seasoning mix and not go bad during storage. Of course, the grated Parmesan cheese can be added later along with the fresh, chopped basil. If a particular seasoning works for someone, the weighed quantities can be converted to volume measurements. Those conversions will vary by the brands of the ingredients, and sometimes the forms of the ingredients, so unless one uses generic conversion data such as available at the nutrition.self.com website, the conversions will have to be done on a case-by-case basis. Some tweaking of ingredient quantities may also be called for to suit individual tastes.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 14, 2011, 05:05:43 PM
Mike,

After you gave a thumbs up for the Luigi clone pizza sauce formulation I came up with at Reply 228 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg152091.html#msg152091, I decided to go back to the Stanislaus website and to tighten up on my numbers for the Full-Red Extra Heavy Tomato Puree (http://www.stanislaus.com/_pdfs/Full-Red-Pizza-Sauce.pdf) and the 7/11 Ground Tomatoes (http://www.stanislaus.com/_pdfs/7-11-Ground-Tomatoes.pdf). These are the only two Stanislaus tomato products that appear in photos taken of Luigiís pizzeria. I also decided to add the Escalon 6-in-1s, which you used, and the Tomato Magic (http://www.stanislaus.com/_pdfs/Tomato-Magic-Ground-Tomatoes.pdf), which is considered to be Stanislausí counterpart product to the 6-in-1s. The reason for doing the analysis is to come up with a set of bakerís percents that might be used to emulate Luigiís pizza sauce using any one of the above products in any desired weight.

For background purposes, here are the weights of the four tomato products mentioned above, in #10 cans:

Full-Red Extra Heavy Tomato Puree: 6 lb, 11 ounces (77 ounces/2182.95 grams)
7/11 Ground Tomatoes: 6 lb, 9 ounces (75 ounces/2126.25 grams)
Tomato Magic: 6 lb, 10 ounces (76 ounces/2154.6 grams)
Escalon 6-in-1s: 6 lb, 9 ounces (75 ounces/2126 grams)

As you can see, the four products have quite similar weights. You might also recall that we speculated from the video and photos that Luigi uses four #10 cans to tomatoes to make a batch of pizza sauce. My previous numbers were predicated on the Luigi pizza sauce being made from either the Stanislaus Full-Red Extra Heavy Tomato Puree or the 7/11 Ground Tomatoes, either alone or possibly in combination, but totaling four #10 cans. Since these two products are similar in weight, as are the other two tomato products, I think it is safe to use a number like 76 ounces (2154.6 grams) times four for bakerís percent calculation purposes for the tomatoes. So, the tomato part of the bakerís percent recipe is 304 ounces/8618.4 grams). It shouldnít matter much which of the above four products is used or the quantities. One can use a single #10 can or a single 28-ounce can of tomatoes, or any other weight.

Based on the weights of the various sauce ingredients I used to come up with the Luigi clone pizza sauce, this is what I get as a generic bakerís percent version:

100%, Stanislaus or Escalon fresh-pack tomatoes (any weight, in ounces or grams)
0.04%, Red pepper flakes
0.093%, Greek oregano leaves (bottled)
0.13%, Salt (table salt, Mortonís)
0.04%, Ground black pepper
0.35%, Garlic powder
0.67%, Grated Parmesan cheese
0.08%, Fresh, chopped basil

To give a simple example using a 28-ounce (793.8 grams) can of tomatoes, the amounts of the ingredients to use are as follows:

28-ounces (793.8 grams) of canned tomatoes
0.32 grams Red pepper flakes (this will be about 2-3 pinches)
0.74 grams Greek oregano (bottled)
1 gram Salt (table salt, Mortonís)
0.32 grams Ground black pepper
2.78 grams Garlic powder
5.3 grams Grated Parmesan cheese
0.64 grams Fresh, chopped basil
Total weight of seasoning mix (without the tomatoes): 11.1 grams

As one can see, the bigger the pizza sauce batch size, the easier the numbers get to work with and to weigh out the ingredients. It is perhaps possible to make up a much larger quantity of seasoning mix, except for the fresh, chopped basil, and store it in a dry place. However, the grated Parmesan cheese will have to be amenable to incorporation into the seasoning mix and not go bad during storage. Of course, the grated Parmesan cheese can be added later along with the fresh, chopped basil. If a particular seasoning works for someone, the weighed quantities can be converted to volume measurements. Those conversions will vary by the brands of the ingredients, and sometimes the forms of the ingredients, so unless one uses generic conversion data such as available at the nutrition.self.com website, the conversions will have to be done on a case-by-case basis. Some tweaking of ingredient quantities may also be called for to suit individual tastes.

Peter


Peter,

This is fantastic! Thanks so much for posting the numbers.

I'm waiting for my new digital scale to come in, which should be here by tomorrow, and will give this formula a go with the exact numbers you just posted. Luigi's sauce is dynamite, like I said before, and my taste testers have also agreed on that.

I usually make batches of sauce using two cans of 28oz 6-in-1s so doubling the numbers will be a breeze. I'll test the sauce again this weekend since I got a couple of pizza requests in from two neighbors.

I have also another question...what could cause the breakdown of the mozzarella last night? It didn't look very good nor very aesthetic.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on September 14, 2011, 06:32:57 PM


Overall, though, I think we're getting much closer to the original. And a longer fermentation is probably the way to go.



Mike,

I think you are right, that a longer fermentation time is probably the way to go.  Since your latest experiments using a longer fermented Luigi's clone dough, I am sure your crust tasted better than mine.  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on September 14, 2011, 06:34:51 PM
Peter,

Thanks for doing the numbers for the Luigiís clone pizza sauce formulation.  I just got a call from Stanislaus a few weeks ago, asking if I wanted to try out any of their products.  They said they would send samples. I didnít know of any samples at the time I wanted to try. In the next few weeks, I will ask for a few samples and report back when I have time to try your Luigiís clone pizza sauce formulation.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 15, 2011, 03:54:41 PM
PE101,

Got the new scale in.

It's a AWS-100 and comes with a 10 year warranty. Measures in grams, ounces, carats and grains, up to a 1/100th of a gram.

Just to keep you posted...
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 15, 2011, 07:51:22 PM
Peter,

I'll be getting a 7/11 #10 can tomorrow from my pizza guy for the Luigi clone sauce. I will report back on the taste and flavor differences between the 6-in-1s and the 7/11s.

Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on September 15, 2011, 08:35:43 PM
Peter,

I'll be getting a 7/11 #10 can tomorrow from my pizza guy for the Luigi clone sauce. I will report back on the taste and flavor differences between the 6-in-1s and the 7/11s.

Mike,

That's great. Do you plan to use just a part of the can, say, 28 ounces worth, just to test the seasonings before deciding what to do with the rest of the can?

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 15, 2011, 09:47:27 PM
Mike,

That's great. Do you plan to use just a part of the can, say, 28 ounces worth, just to test the seasonings before deciding what to do with the rest of the can?

Peter

Peter,

I have three requests for pizza on the weekend, up from two, so I might as well use 56oz worth of 7/11s for the sauce. I was thinking about freezing the rest but don't really know if that's a good idea nor do I know how the tomatoes will hold up in a freezer.

It's the first time I'll be using them so any info or tip is appreciated.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on September 15, 2011, 10:26:55 PM
Mike,

I donít know how you will like the 7/11 tomato sauce compared to 6 in 1 sauce, but I have used the 7/11 sauce before with good results in adding other ingredients and then freezing the sauce.  I have added all the other ingredients, except the fresh basil when freezing.  Will be interesting to see what you think of the 7/11 sauce compared to the 6 in 1 sauce.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: PizzaEater101 on September 15, 2011, 11:28:43 PM
Mike, that scale is impressive.  Thanks for pointing me in the right direction for it.  I have not ordered yet but will.  I don't want to "wing" it anymore.  I want to really be precise as can be and that scale will do it for me.  That's a great looking instrument.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 15, 2011, 11:40:59 PM
Mike, that scale is impressive.  Thanks for pointing me in the right direction for it.  I have not ordered yet but will.  I don't want to "wing" it anymore.  I want to really be precise as can be and that scale will do it for me.  That's a great looking instrument.

PE101,

What you see on the scale is the smallest watch battery I was able to find in our store. I'm sure we have smaller ones but this one clocked in at 0.16 grams. I also measured a tiny wheel from a Rolex movement and that measured 0.07 grams.

The scale is more than capable of weighing even the smallest amounts of yeast, salt, sugar or even a fly.  ;D

I'm pretty happy with it so far.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 15, 2011, 11:42:02 PM
Mike,

I donít know how you will like the 7/11 tomato sauce compared to 6 in 1 sauce, but I have used the 7/11 sauce before with good results in adding other ingredients and then freezing the sauce.  I have added all the other ingredients, except the fresh basil when freezing.  Will be interesting to see what you think of the 7/11 sauce compared to the 6 in 1 sauce.

Norma

Norma,

Thanks for the heads-up on the freezing. When you froze it, did you notice any loss of flavor afterwards, though?
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on September 16, 2011, 07:46:47 AM
Norma,

Thanks for the heads-up on the freezing. When you froze it, did you notice any loss of flavor afterwards, though?

Mike,

Although I donít use a combination of 7/11 and Saporito Super Heavy Pizza Sauce anymore, and donít use the fresh ingredients I had used before, I used to use the two Stanislaus products together (7/11 and Saporito Heavy Duty pizza sauce with basil) and froze what ever was left from market each week.  I posted how I used to make my pizza sauce in comparison to using Walmart Great Value products at the monthly challenge in December 2009 at Reply 2 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9744.msg85554.html#msg85554
I found no matter what Stanislaus product I use, they all can be frozen without any loss in taste.  I usually freeze whatever pizza sauce is leftover from a Tuesday in quart food-safe containers. and then just let them defrost for one day for market the next week.  I have also saved some of the frozen sauces, and defrosted them for home made pizzas many times, even for months.  There never seems like there is a loss in flavor of the pizza sauces made with Stanislaus products.  I donít know if my freezer makes any difference or not in the freezing and defrosting, but my freezer isnít a one that defrosts itself.  I need to manually defrost my freezer.

I am interested in your results.  :)

One of these days I want to get a scale that can weigh small amounts like your new scale.  I agree with James that your new scale is impressive!  ;D

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on September 16, 2011, 09:03:26 AM
Since I posted I was going to try the ADM Gigantic Flour with another flour for a LuigiĎs #2 formula, lets see if I got the numbers correct if use GM Harvest King flour in combination with the ADM Gigantic high-gluten flour. Protein for the ADM Gigantic high gluten flour seems to be 14% http://www.adm.com/en-US/Milling/USWheat/Pages/Gigantic.aspx  and the Harvest King protein seems to be between 11.7-12.3% protein.  I used 12% for the Harvest King flour in The mixed mass percentage calculator. I did lower the amount of ADY, so I can see if that let me ferment the dough longer, for a better taste in the crust.

Formula below

Edit:  I had the wrong amount of the ADM Gigantic flour on my formula.  Peter later found my mistake.  The ADM amount should have been 232.3875 grams.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 16, 2011, 12:34:59 PM
Mike,

Although I donít use a combination of 7/11 and Saporito Super Heavy Pizza Sauce anymore, and donít use the fresh ingredients I had used before, I used to use the two Stanislaus products together (7/11 and Saporito Heavy Duty pizza sauce with basil) and froze what ever was left from market each week.  I posted how I used to make my pizza sauce in comparison to using Walmart Great Value products at the monthly challenge in December 2009 at Reply 2 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9744.msg85554.html#msg85554
I found no matter what Stanislaus product I use, they all can be frozen without any loss in taste.  I usually freeze whatever pizza sauce is leftover from a Tuesday in quart food-safe containers. and then just let them defrost for one day for market the next week.  I have also saved some of the frozen sauces, and defrosted them for home made pizzas many times, even for months.  There never seems like there is a loss in flavor of the pizza sauces made with Stanislaus products.  I donít know if my freezer makes any difference or not in the freezing and defrosting, but my freezer isnít a one that defrosts itself.  I need to manually defrost my freezer.

I am interested in your results.  :)

One of these days I want to get a scale that can weigh small amounts like your new scale.  I agree with James that your new scale is impressive!  ;D

Norma

Norma,

Thanks a bunch for the info and link. It's good to know that the 7/11 tomatoes can be frozen and thawed without significant loss in flavor. I'll post my results over the coming weekend.

Regarding the scale, it works flawlessly. I had to measure a small yeast amount last night and the scale's very accurate.

I bought it here: http://www.amazon.com/American-Weigh-Signature-AWS-100-Digital/dp/B0012LOQUQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1316190613&sr=8-1
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on September 16, 2011, 01:50:19 PM
Since I posted I was going to try the ADM Gigantic Flour with another flour for a LuigiĎs #2 formula, lets see if I got the numbers correct if use GM Harvest King flour in combination with the ADM Gigantic high-gluten flour. Protein for the ADM Gigantic high gluten flour seems to be 14% http://www.adm.com/en-US/Milling/USWheat/Pages/Gigantic.aspx  and the Harvest King protein seems to be between 11.7-12.3% protein.  I used 12% for the Harvest King flour in The mixed mass percentage calculator.

Norma,

It looks like you did everything right but I believe you misread 232.3875 as 282.3875.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on September 16, 2011, 04:49:51 PM
Norma,

It looks like you did everything right but I believe you misread 232.3875 as 283.3875.

Peter

Peter,

You are right, I somehow misread or copied the wrong number for the ADM Gigantic flour.  Thanks for finding the mistake.  That would have made a difference in the Luigi's #2 attempt.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 16, 2011, 05:38:58 PM
Peter,

You are right, I somehow misread or copied the wrong number for the ADM Gigantic flour.  Thanks for finding the mistake.  That would have made a difference in the Luigi's #2 attempt.

Norma

Norma,

Looking forward to your results!
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on September 16, 2011, 05:55:24 PM
Norma,

Looking forward to your results!

Mike,

Thanks!  I sure don't know how the Luigi's #2  formula will work out for me, but I would like to get a better taste in the crust, something like you did when you baked your other dough balls.  I am always fouling up on numbers. I had checked where I had my scratch pad, and must have been distracted and copied my one number wrong.  If it wasn't for Peter checking what I did, my results would have been skewed.  :-D

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 16, 2011, 07:40:47 PM
Got two cans instead of one. $6.50 for both.

Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: chickenparm on September 16, 2011, 09:51:13 PM
Mike,

Thats a great deal! Do these cans have skins or no skins?I could not remember.Thanks.
 :)
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 16, 2011, 10:36:30 PM
Mike,

Thats a great deal! Do these cans have skins or no skins?I could not remember.Thanks.
 :)


Bill,

Not sure what you mean by 'skins'. Are you talking about the inside coating?
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on September 16, 2011, 11:00:14 PM
For a description of the 7/11 tomatoes, see http://www.stanislaus.com/products/real-italian-products/from-scratch-products#Ground.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 16, 2011, 11:16:49 PM
For a description of the 7/11 tomatoes, see http://www.stanislaus.com/products/real-italian-products/from-scratch-products#Ground.

Peter

Boy, I feel like an idiot now  ;D

Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: chickenparm on September 16, 2011, 11:25:06 PM
Boy, I feel like an idiot now  ;D



Me too...
 ;D

I have the website saved and bookmarked,just did not recall off the top of my head if they had the tomato skins or not.

I have used the 6 in 1's ground unpeeled that had the skins,but never tried the 7/11's yet.

On a pizza,one might never notice the small pieces of tomato skins,but tasting the stuff out of the can,you are going to get them stuck on your tongue or feel them in your mouth at times.

I have wanted to try a can of peeled ground tomatoes but have not ordered one yet.

 :)






Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 17, 2011, 12:42:19 PM
Me too...
 ;D

I have the website saved and bookmarked,just did not recall off the top of my head if they had the tomato skins or not.

I have used the 6 in 1's ground unpeeled that had the skins,but never tried the 7/11's yet.

On a pizza,one might never notice the small pieces of tomato skins,but tasting the stuff out of the can,you are going to get them stuck on your tongue or feel them in your mouth at times.

I have wanted to try a can of peeled ground tomatoes but have not ordered one yet.

 :)


Bill,

I guess it's what they call a brain fart! It happens  ;D
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 17, 2011, 12:47:26 PM
Last night I gave the Luigi #1 clone another test run with a 64% hydration. It turned out very nice.

24hr cold ferment, 64% hydration and a 7-minute bake time...not bad. The crust, though, was still a tad too think. Maybe I need to learn how to spin the dough for an evenly thin crust. Right now, I have spots that are thicker than others.

Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on September 17, 2011, 01:16:15 PM
Last night I gave the Luigi #1 clone another test run with a 64% hydration. It turned out very nice.

24hr cold ferment, 64% hydration and a 7-minute bake time...not bad. The crust, though, was still a tad too think. Maybe I need to learn how to spin the dough for an evenly thin crust. Right now, I have spots that are thicker than others.



Mike,

Your Luigiís #1 formula attempt turned out very nice!  :) How did your crust taste after a 24 hr. ferment?  Did you use the 7/11 ground tomatoes on this attempt?

I sure wish I could taste a slice of your Luigiís attempt. 

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 17, 2011, 02:15:01 PM
Mike,

Your Luigiís #1 formula attempt turned out very nice!  :) How did your crust taste after a 24 hr. ferment?  Did you use the 7/11 ground tomatoes on this attempt?

I sure wish I could taste a slice of your Luigiís attempt.  

Norma

Norma,

Taste-wise the crust was okay. I didn't attempt a longer fermentation because of the yeast amount. I think the Luigi #3 formula is a better candidate for a prolonged fermentation period.

I have not yet used the 7/11 tomatoes. I ran out of fresh basil and therefor didn't want to open a can if I don't have all the ingredients at hand. I'll get them today and make the sauce tonight.

My goal is to come close to this Luigi pie:

http://5-ds.blogspot.com/2008/07/pizzeria-luigi.html
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on September 17, 2011, 03:57:02 PM
Mike,

Remember that the reason for the smaller percent of yeast in Luigi #2 and Luigi #3 is because they were based on different weights of flour. If you want to use, say, Luigi #3, to get a longer cold fermentation, you will want to boost the amount of salt and sugar to the percents shown in Luigi #1. Otherwise, the crust may be too bland.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 17, 2011, 04:10:21 PM
Mike,

Remember that the reason for the smaller percent of yeast in Luigi #2 and Luigi #3 is because they were based on different weights of flour. If you want to use, say, Luigi #3, to get a longer cold fermentation, you will want to boost the amount of salt and sugar to the percents shown in Luigi #1. Otherwise, the crust may be too bland.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for the tip.

The more I work with those formulas the more I think that, in order to come close to Luigi's crust in a home oven, the 65% hydration might be the way to go. Even though my previous dough felt very sluggish and sticky at 65%, it was very easy to handle after the fermentation period. No sluggishness or stickiness whatsoever.

Maybe sifting the flour and giving it a rest period after the first couple of minutes of mixing so that the flour can absorb the water might make things a bit easier.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: parallei on September 17, 2011, 04:38:26 PM
Your latest are looking really good Mike. You seem to be damn close to the photo's that are your goal......
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: chickenparm on September 17, 2011, 10:45:57 PM
Mike,
Those pics look better than many of those I have seen online.Nice work!
 :pizza:
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: PizzaEater101 on September 18, 2011, 01:28:55 AM
Got two cans instead of one. $6.50 for both.



Mike, I love the label on the can.  The guy on the label is great!

I have to say Mike, when I look at the picture of the pizza you made it makes me super crave pizza at this moment.  That's a great looking pie, Mike.  Great work.

I wish we had the technology to print out the picture and the picture will turn into a pizza.  We are not quite there yet are we but Back To The Future, Part II has something close -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9U2ekOVL5Q

Don't think we can reverse engineer this one though!   :chef: :pizza:
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on September 18, 2011, 01:35:48 PM
I mixed the Luigiís #2 dough formula this morning, that I posted the formula at Reply 394 (with corrected grams of ADM Gigantic flour).  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg153311.html#msg153311
   
Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 18, 2011, 02:06:51 PM
Para & Bill...

Thanks, guys. I think we're inching toward the original. Slowly but steady  ;D

Mike, I love the label on the can.  The guy on the label is great!


PE101,

When I first saw the guy I thought he looks half drunk and half stoned.  :)

The tomatoes are great, though. They are a bit more liquid then the 6-in-1s I have used so far and there's no need to add water to them. The consistency is the exact same as in the Luigi video...

Here's a very short clip of the still unseasoned tomatoes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSE8k46qDQM
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 19, 2011, 03:27:13 PM
I gave the Luigi clone #4 a test run and combined it with a 48-hour individual cold rise.

For that, I raised the salt level to 1.5% but lowered the hydration to 63%. The rest was kept the same.

Flour (100%):
Water (63%):
ADY (.35412%):
Salt (1.5%):
Sugar (0.11464%):
Total (164.96876%):
Single Ball:
523.92 g  |  18.48 oz | 1.16 lbs
330.07 g  |  11.64 oz | 0.73 lbs
1.86 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.49 tsp | 0.16 tbsp
7.86 g | 0.28 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.41 tsp | 0.47 tbsp
0.6 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.15 tsp | 0.05 tbsp
864.3 g | 30.49 oz | 1.91 lbs | TF = N/A
432.15 g | 15.24 oz | 0.95 lbs

Bowl residue was 0.5%

The crust turned out much chewier and crunchier but had much better flavor compared to a 24-hr cold rise. Those two pies were given away to my testers and both said that the crust was a bit too chewy, especially the rim. Both said, however, that the flavor and texture was better and the crust held up nicely to the weight of the toppings without loosing that little flop at the tip.

Now the sauce...both parties, 4 eaters total, were impressed with the sauce and thought it was an exceptionally well balanced concoction, so Kudos to Peter for figuring out the numbers and to Luigi for coming up with this! The 7/11 tomatoes seemed to make a big difference regarding the texture and flavor of the sauce. Lo and behold, the comments also included the word 'sweet'

The first pie was an all veggie, basically a modified Luigi 'Michelangelo' pie, with added onions, artichoke hearts, ricotta cheese and fresh garlic but no tomato slices.

The second one was a 'Mona Lisa/Capone' hybrid per request. The meatballs were homemade yesterday and baked together with the Italian sausage in the oven at 375įF for about 20 minutes. The meat toppings of the hybrid pies was pepperoni, Italian sausage and meatballs (sliced & ground). My testers enjoyed the meatballs in particular, which was a recipe from the Johnsonville Sausage Company http://www.johnsonville.com/recipes/gl/italian-meatballs.html

Overall both pies were very good but both taster parties mentioned that the crust was a bit too dense so I'll use a 65% hydration for all upcoming pies to achieve a more airy crust structure.

Some pics...

Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 19, 2011, 03:29:06 PM
And the rest...
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Jet_deck on September 19, 2011, 04:28:33 PM
Did it make a nice crunchy sound when cut?
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on September 19, 2011, 04:45:34 PM
Mike,

It looks like you are making good progress. Maybe someday you can go to San Diego and try the real thing.

I'm glad the pizza sauce turned out well. It is always somewhat of a crapshoot when you are eyeballing volume measurements, especially in a video where images can get distorted. Did you and/or your tasters like the 7/11 sauce better than the 6-in-1 sauce and, if so, why?

This has been quite an interesting thread that has taught us a lot of things--about Pendleton flours (and particularly the Power flour), flour bag sizes, Hobart mixers, Stanislaus tomatoes, video shoots and post-production techniques, and how to slice and dice a video to extract useful information. I don't think that I will ever view a DDD segment the same way again. It looks like a lot of people are following what we have all done. No doubt some of them think we belong in a home somewhere :-D.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 19, 2011, 05:06:22 PM
Did it make a nice crunchy sound when cut?

It did! But there's still some work to do before I get where I want the crust to be.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 19, 2011, 05:16:19 PM
Mike,

It looks like you are making good progress. Maybe someday you can go to San Diego and try the real thing.

I'm glad the pizza sauce turned out well. It is always somewhat of a crapshoot when you are eyeballing volume measurements, especially in a video where images can get distorted. Did you and/or your tasters like the 7/11 sauce better than the 6-in-1 sauce and, if so, why?

This has been quite an interesting thread that has taught us a lot of things--about Pendleton flours (and particularly the Power flour), flour bag sizes, Hobart mixers, Stanislaus tomatoes, video shoots and post-production techniques, and how to slice and dice a video to extract useful information. I don't think that I will ever view a DDD segment the same way again. It looks like a lot of people are following what we have all done. No doubt some of them think we belong in a home somewhere :-D.

Peter

Peter,

'Asylum' would be a better word!  ;D

Regarding the real Luigi's, I think there's no way around except for visiting Luigi's Pizzeria if one wants to compare the clones to the real deal. Unless, of course, Luigi shows up on here and gives his insight but I doubt that this will happen any time soon.

The sauce is very, very good. The main two differences between the 6-in-1s and the 7/11 tomatoes are the consistency and the sweetness. The 6-in1-s have always required some added water or pureeing them down a bit to make the sauce thinner in consistency and some form of sugar whereas the 7/11s haven't required anything else. But the 6-in-1s are still a great product and very close to the 7/11s, though. One thing I and my testers also noticed was a higher acidity level in the 6-in-1s. Last night, all of them liked the the 7/11 sauce better than my previous one made from the Escalon tomatoes.

I think I'll make two small batches from both tomato products with the exact same numbers you posted and than do a side-by-side comparison. Also, I think the crust could use a tad more experimenting in terms of keeping it close to Luigi's 24-hr fermentation and trying to coax out a tad more flavor at the same time.

I'm anxious to see how Norma's test will turn out.

P.S.: I forgot to mention that both pies were baked at 645įF, give or take a couple of degrees, for 7 mins.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: chickenparm on September 19, 2011, 06:43:41 PM
28-ounces (793.8 grams) of canned tomatoes
0.32 grams Red pepper flakes (this will be about 2-3 pinches)
0.74 grams Greek oregano (bottled)
1 gram Salt (table salt, Mortonís)
0.32 grams Ground black pepper
2.78 grams Garlic powder
5.3 grams Grated Parmesan cheese
0.64 grams Fresh, chopped basil
Total weight of seasoning mix (without the tomatoes): 11.1 grams


Can you guys convert this into tsp? Maybe round them off to the nearest size?

My scale cannot measure most of this stuff.I dont mind rounding stuff off,it has never been an issue for me with anything in the past.The changes might be so minor,I wont hardly notice much.

Thanks.

 :)
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on September 19, 2011, 06:44:00 PM
Mike,

Your are really ďgoing to townĒ on your Luigiís experiments!  :-D  Seriously, your recent pies look very delicious!  :) Your toppings also look great! I was interested how you would like the Stanislaus 7/11 tomato product.  I also like the 7/11 tomato sauce and other Stanislaus products.  I know all members have different tastes, but I have also tried the 6in1 sauce with different spices and I keep going back to the Stanislaus products because of the fresh tomato taste.

Norma  
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: chickenparm on September 19, 2011, 06:45:00 PM
Mike,
Im loving it! Love the color and crust bottom as well.Its perfect to me.
 :)
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on September 19, 2011, 06:52:52 PM
I might have made a little ďhead-wayĒ with getting some Power flour today.  Alex called me and we talked about if there are any distributors in Pa.  He said there were, but he would have to ask his boss about where they are.  I told Alex I had only wanted to try out the Power flour to see if it would make any difference in the pizzas I make.  Alex said did I know the Power Flour has a hydration rate of 65% and he asked if I could work with that kind of hydration for pizzas.  I said I could.  Alex said after he talks to his boss, he might send me a sample of Power flour for me to try.  I asked Alex what size bags does the Power flour come in and he told me only 50 lb. bags. I wonder why that is.  ??? I will wait until I get a call back from Alex to see if I can obtain any Power Flour to try out.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 19, 2011, 06:53:40 PM
28-ounces (793.8 grams) of canned tomatoes
0.32 grams Red pepper flakes (this will be about 2-3 pinches)
0.74 grams Greek oregano (bottled)
1 gram Salt (table salt, Mortonís)
0.32 grams Ground black pepper
2.78 grams Garlic powder
5.3 grams Grated Parmesan cheese
0.64 grams Fresh, chopped basil
Total weight of seasoning mix (without the tomatoes): 11.1 grams


Can you guys convert this into tsp? Maybe round them off to the nearest size?

My scale cannot measure most of this stuff.I dont mind rounding stuff off,it has never been an issue for me with anything in the past.The changes might be so minor,I wont hardly notice much.

Thanks.

 :)

Bill,

I don't really know how to convert those numbers into tsp or Tbsp. I tried that once and gave up on it  :angel:

That's why I bought this little gadget for amounts that my regular go-to digital scale can't handle.

http://www.amazon.com/American-Weigh-Signature-AWS-100-Digital/dp/B0012LOQUQ/?tag=pizzamaking-20 (http://www.amazon.com/American-Weigh-Signature-AWS-100-Digital/dp/B0012LOQUQ/?tag=pizzamaking-20)
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 19, 2011, 06:59:25 PM
I might have made a little ďhead-wayĒ with getting some Power flour today.  Alex called me and we talked about if there are any distributors in Pa.  He said there were, but he would have to ask his boss about where they are.  I told Alex I had only wanted to try out the Power flour to see if it would make any difference in the pizzas I make.  Alex said did I know the Power Flour has a hydration rate of 65% and he asked if I could work with that kind of hydration for pizzas.  I said I could.  Alex said after he talks to his boss, he might send me a sample of Power flour for me to try.  I asked Alex what size bags does the Power flour come in and he told me only 50 lb. bags. I wonder why that is.  ??? I will wait until I get a call back from Alex to see if I can obtain any Power Flour to try out.

Norma

Norma,

Once you get your hands on the PF you will not be disappointed, I promise. It is truly an amazing flour and a real joy to work with. The only little set-back I initially encountered was the 65% hydration dough but I might have not mixed it properly or to its fullest potential because I was too eager to get things started.

Which brings up the question how a grown man can be almost so excited over a bag of flour as he was when he received his first Carrera slot car race track as a young kid for Christmas... ???

Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on September 19, 2011, 07:03:15 PM
Norma,

Once you get your hands on the PF you will not be disappointed, I promise. It is truly an amazing flour and a real joy to work with. The only little set-back I initially encountered was the 65% hydration dough but I might have not mixed it properly or to its fullest potential because I was too eager to get things started.

Which brings up the question how a grown man can be almost so excited over a bag of flour as he was when he received his first Carrera slot car race track as a young kid for Christmas... ???



Mike,

Lol, you really made me chuckle over getting so excited over a bag of flour and comparing the flour to slot car race tracks!  :-D

I hope I can obtain some of the Power flour to try, but I will wait and see what happens.  I really would like to try the Power flour.  I have so many bags of flour and dough enhancers at home, I soon won't know what to do with all of them.   :-D

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 19, 2011, 07:07:18 PM
Mike,

Lol, you really made me chuckle over getting so excited over a bag of flour and comparing the flour to slot car race tracks!  :-D

I hope I can obtain some of the Power flour to try, but I will wait and see what happens.  I really would like to try the Power flour.  I have so many bags of flour and dough enhancers at home, I soon won't know what to do with all of them.   :-D

Norma


Norma,

I think that's just the nature of the game here.  ;D

What you could do with all those flours is to perhaps make one different style of pizza every Tuesday at Market. Let's say on the first Tuesday of the month you could offer NY-style pies, the next one a rustic style, then maybe a Sicilian style and so forth.

Just an idea... ;)
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: chickenparm on September 19, 2011, 07:19:30 PM
Mike,

Since you can measure .32 grams with your scale,what tsp will that amount fit,say,using salt or garlic powder? less than a 1/4? Can you eyeball it and give me a close guess next time you use it?

Btw,I did try to make my own version of the sauce.I used very small amounts of the ingredients just to get an idea.I cannot stand the parmesan cheese in it.I wont be using it.Sauce kept tasting/smelling like sour milk or puke at times.I admit I may have put a bit too much in by accident.I like parmesan cheese alot,I do sprinkle it around my pasta and etc at times,but not in the sauce mixed up.

Maybe one wont taste it much when its cooked on the pizza,but I think I would rather use the Pecorino romano instead next time.I've used it before with success.
 :)







Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 19, 2011, 07:30:00 PM
Mike,

Since you can measure .32 grams with your scale,what tsp will that amount fit,say,using salt or garlic powder? less than a 1/4? Can you eyeball it and give me a close guess next time you use it?

Btw,I did try to make my own version of the sauce.I used very small amounts of the ingredients just to get an idea.I cannot stand the parmesan cheese in it.I wont be using it.Sauce kept tasting/smelling like sour milk or puke at times.I admit I may have put a bit too much in by accident.I like parmesan cheese alot,I do sprinkle it around my pasta and etc at times,but not in the sauce mixed up.

Maybe one wont taste it much when its cooked on the pizza,but I think I would rather use the Pecorino romano instead next time.I've used it before with success.
 :)


Bill,

I used Pecorino Romano instead of Parmesan. I like the flavor better.

Just measured .32gr of garlic powder and it was about half of 1/8 tsp, eyeballed. The coarse sea salt I measured was about 1/8 tsp.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on September 19, 2011, 08:03:11 PM
Norma,

I think that's just the nature of the game here.  ;D

What you could do with all those flours is to perhaps make one different style of pizza every Tuesday at Market. Let's say on the first Tuesday of the month you could offer NY-style pies, the next one a rustic style, then maybe a Sicilian style and so forth.

Just an idea... ;)

Mike,

Your idea is really a good one, but most customers in my area just like NY style pies, and never even tasted other styles of pizza.  I don't know if I will ever be able to change their minds or not.  I sure didn't know about all the styles of pizzas before I found this forum.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on September 19, 2011, 08:17:27 PM
28-ounces (793.8 grams) of canned tomatoes
0.32 grams Red pepper flakes (this will be about 2-3 pinches)
0.74 grams Greek oregano (bottled)
1 gram Salt (table salt, Mortonís)
0.32 grams Ground black pepper
2.78 grams Garlic powder
5.3 grams Grated Parmesan cheese
0.64 grams Fresh, chopped basil
Total weight of seasoning mix (without the tomatoes): 11.1 grams


Can you guys convert this into tsp? Maybe round them off to the nearest size?

Bill,

Sometime tomorrow I will try to convert the above ingredients into volume measurements. I will not do it for the Parmesan cheese since I do not have the dry, powdery version (which you don't like anyway in your sauces) and I will not be able to convert the fresh, chopped basil to a volume measurement since I do not have any basil on hand. You should also keep in mind that not all brands of ingredients have the same weight-to-volume conversion data, and even that data can change as ingredients age and dry out. But I will give you what I have.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 19, 2011, 09:04:37 PM
Mike,

Your idea is really a good one, but most customers in my area just like NY style pies, and never even tasted other styles of pizza.  I don't know if I will ever be able to change their minds or not.  I sure didn't know about all the styles of pizzas before I found this forum.

Norma

Norma,

I know how hard it can be to convince people to try new things or break with ingrained habits but to ease them into other styles of pizza you could always have a couple of pies as samples out on the counter, free of course, and offer them to try.

But please don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to tell you how to run your business. You know your clientele best  ;D
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: chickenparm on September 19, 2011, 09:14:13 PM
Mike,
Thanks so much for doing that grams to tsp amounts for me.I really appreciate it and it gives me an better idea what to do with certain spices.
 8)

Peter,

Thanks for offering to do the conversions for the ones you can,in your spare time.I do understand about the weight to volume ratio as well.Not a problem.Also,Rounding things off to the nearest spoon size is something I do often.It has never made anything difficult to do either.The recipe for me is a starting point,then its anything goes from there.
 ;D


Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on September 20, 2011, 02:42:17 PM
Peter,

Thanks for offering to do the conversions for the ones you can,in your spare time.I do understand about the weight to volume ratio as well.Not a problem.Also,Rounding things off to the nearest spoon size is something I do often.It has never made anything difficult to do either.The recipe for me is a starting point,then its anything goes from there.
 ;D

Bill,

I used my My Weigh 300-Z scale to weigh the amounts of crushed red peppers, Greek oregano, salt, black ground pepper, and garlic powder and then measured them out using measuring spoons to get the values noted below in highlight. My mini-scale is accurate to only one-tenth of a gram, but I believe the numbers are quite close. All volume measurements are level measuring spoon measurements.

0.32 grams Crushed red pepper flakes (this will be about 2-3 pinches) (1/4 teaspoon)
0.74 grams Greek oregano (bottled) (a bit less than 3/4 teaspoon)
1 gram Salt (table salt, Mortonís) (1/8 teaspoon plus half again, or 3/16 teaspoon if using a "pinch" mini-measuring spoon)
0.32 grams Ground black pepper (a bit less than 1/4 teaspoon)
2.78 grams Garlic powder, McCormick's (5/8 teaspoon)

As noted previously, I did not measure out the Parmesan cheese (which you do not like in the sauce anyway) or the fresh basil (0.64 grams), which I do not have on hand.

If you, or any other member for that matter, proceed with the above seasoning mix, let us know how you like it. Please also note the tomatoes used.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: chickenparm on September 20, 2011, 09:00:16 PM
Peter,

Thank YOU!That really helps!
 8)

I can use it and will also adjust/tailor to suit my needs as well.

It might be a week or so before I try mixing this up.I ran out of Cento and will pick some more up later in the week.If I can't get to the store that sells the Cento,I will probably use the 28 ounce WalMart GV crushed tomatoes instead.

 :)
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 20, 2011, 10:15:44 PM
Peter,

Thank YOU!That really helps!
 8)

I can use it and will also adjust/tailor to suit my needs as well.

It might be a week or so before I try mixing this up.I ran out of Cento and will pick some more up later in the week.If I can't get to the store that sells the Cento,I will probably use the 28 ounce WalMart GV crushed tomatoes instead.

 :)


Bill,

I'd use the 6-in-1s since that is probably the closest to the 7/11 tomatoes. But Centos are good, too. Please let us know what you think of the sauce.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: chickenparm on September 20, 2011, 10:25:21 PM
Mike,
Now that you mention it,I may pick some 6 in 1's up when I go buy the Cento.The stores that carry the good stuff,is a 70 mile round trip,so I do not head out there often.Might as well go over to GFS and get the 6 in 1's while Im in that area to buy Cento.
 :)
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 20, 2011, 10:34:36 PM
Mike,
Now that you mention it,I may pick some 6 in 1's up when I go buy the Cento.The stores that carry the good stuff,is a 70 mile round trip,so I do not head out there often.Might as well go over to GFS and get the 6 in 1's while Im in that area to buy Cento.
 :)

Bill,

Good idea. Also, you might have to puree the 6-in-1s and add a bit of water to get the same consistency as the 7/11s. But the sauce should turn out great, either way.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on September 20, 2011, 10:43:32 PM
The attempt at a Luigiís #2 formula went well today at market.  Using the Luigiís #2 formula seemed to give the crust a much better taste all around.

Steve, my taste testers and I thought his second attempt was much better than last week.  I did add a pinch of Vitamin C in the formula.

This is a video of the pie being cut.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJ4kppHSaDM

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on September 20, 2011, 10:45:13 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on September 20, 2011, 10:47:01 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on September 20, 2011, 10:48:49 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on September 20, 2011, 10:50:03 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: chickenparm on September 21, 2011, 12:31:39 AM
Norma,

Wonderful job on that pie and thanks for posting the pics!!

I bet you could do this in your sleep!

 :chef:




Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on September 21, 2011, 07:11:24 AM
Norma,

Wonderful job on that pie and thanks for posting the pics!!

I bet you could do this in your sleep!

 :chef:




Bill,

Thanks!  :) I try to post all the pictures I can manage to take, so if anyone wants to see the whole process I did, (whether good or bad)) they can be followed by the pictures.

I canít really make pizzas as easily as you might think.  Each dough has its own set of challenges, and many times I donít really know what to do but make sure I try to mix the dough right, watch how the dough ferments and then try to form a pizza on how it should look.  With each dough I make, I learn more on how different doughs behave or sometimes donít behave.  :-D

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: PizzaEater101 on September 21, 2011, 10:37:41 AM
Norma, you did a heck of a fine job.  Now that makes me hungry for pizza and it's only 7:36 AM here out west.  Maybe you can send me the pie via Priority Mail?  J/K.  Great job Norma!   :chef:  :pizza:
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on September 21, 2011, 12:39:40 PM
Norma, you did a heck of a fine job.  Now that makes me hungry for pizza and it's only 7:36 AM here out west.  Maybe you can send me the pie via Priority Mail?  J/K.  Great job Norma!   :chef:  :pizza:

James,

Thanks for your kind comments!  :)  Lol, the Luigiís #2 clone attempt is already gone.  Sorry, I canít send you even one slice. My taste testers, Steve, and I ate the whole pizza.  Thanks for starting this thread, because now I got to try a new type of pizza that I didnít try out before.  I do make NY style pizzas, but none have been like the ones I attempted so far in this thread.  So far, at least to Steve, my taste testers, and me we like the Luigiís #2 formula Peter set-forth. 

Are you going to try one of the formulas at some point in time?  I think you will like the results.  There has been a lot of work on this thread by many members to try and reverse engineer Luigiís pizza.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 21, 2011, 11:07:53 PM
Norma,

Excellent work! Love the pics and especially the video. The pie looks incredibly good!

I have a couple of question, though...How long did you bake it for? And what was the opinion of your T-testers, incl. Steve, regarding the crust?

Okay, one more question  ::)...How did you like the flour combo you used for this one?
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on September 22, 2011, 07:14:51 AM
Norma,

Excellent work! Love the pics and especially the video. The pie looks incredibly good!

I have a couple of question, though...How long did you bake it for? And what was the opinion of your T-testers, incl. Steve, regarding the crust?

Okay, one more question  ::)...How did you like the flour combo you used for this one?

Mike,

Thanks for your kind comments!  :) Steve and I did time the bake for the Luigiís #2 pizza attempt. We set the timer for 5 minutes and the pie was baked before the 5 minutes, so I guess it was baked in about 4 Ĺ minutes at about 525 degrees F. My taste testers, Steve and I all liked this attempted crust pizza better than my last attempt.  I donít know if the better taste came from the flour combination, or from the longer ferment.  If I had to guess, I would think the better flavor in the crust came from the longer ferment.  Even though the crust almost sounded the same way when being cut, the crust wasnít as tough, if that makes any sense.  The crust could have been better from the flour combination, but still havenít figured that out.

To answer you question about the flour combinations, I have tried so many flour combinations before, and also bromated flours in different experiments.  I know many members might say bromated flour makes a difference in NY style pizzas, but I havenít found that so as of right now.  I have tried All Trumps, Pillsbury Balancer, ADM, and Occident flours in pizzas, which are all bromated.  I do use KASL for my regular pizzas at market, and donít find any of the above mentioned flours that much different in how the dough handles or how the final bake turns out.  One week, a couple of months ago, I made one batch of my market dough with KASL and one batch with ADM.  The next day I couldnít tell any difference in how the dough behaved, baked, or how the pizzas tasted.  I know that sounds weird, and someday I will do those tests again to see if I have the same results. I really donít know, but am leaning towards how a dough is mixed and the formula used, in how a pizza will turn out.  I know not many members will agree on this.  I am just commenting on NY style pizzas and am still experimenting.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: PizzaEater101 on September 22, 2011, 11:56:20 AM
James,

Thanks for your kind comments!  :)  Lol, the Luigiís #2 clone attempt is already gone.  Sorry, I canít send you even one slice. My taste testers, Steve, and I ate the whole pizza.  Thanks for starting this thread, because now I got to try a new type of pizza that I didnít try out before.  I do make NY style pizzas, but none have been like the ones I attempted so far in this thread.  So far, at least to Steve, my taste testers, and me we like the Luigiís #2 formula Peter set-forth. 

Are you going to try one of the formulas at some point in time?  I think you will like the results.  There has been a lot of work on this thread by many members to try and reverse engineer Luigiís pizza.

Norma

Norma, I may have to just fly back east to PA and become one of your taste testers!  J/K.  :'(

You are right, I should make some of the Luigi pizza formula 2.    I have not made pizza in a couple of weeks because right now I'm gonna buy a cordierite pizza stone (actually kiln shelve) and then start making again.  Once I get the stone I'm gonna start making again and start making because the clones that you, Mike, Peter and others have been making look like real gems.  Real treats. 

Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on September 22, 2011, 02:39:52 PM
Norma, I may have to just fly back east to PA and become one of your taste testers!  J/K.  :'(

You are right, I should make some of the Luigi pizza formula 2.    I have not made pizza in a couple of weeks because right now I'm gonna buy a cordierite pizza stone (actually kiln shelve) and then start making again.  Once I get the stone I'm gonna start making again and start making because the clones that you, Mike, Peter and others have been making look like real gems.  Real treats. 



James,

You can fly East to be one of my taste testers anytime you want.  I am not decided at this point, if the Luigiís #2 formula Peter set-forth is the best formula to try.  The Luigiís #1 formula from last week wasnít fermented as long, so that might also turned out different if it would be fermented more. I also didnít try out the other two formulas.  I think each member has to try the formulas out for themselves to see which one they like.  Also, members that donít have access to the Power flour like Mike does, might get different results.

Best of luck with your new kiln shelf when you get it, and trying one of the Luigiís formulas.  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 22, 2011, 10:57:23 PM
Mike,

Thanks for your kind comments!  :) Steve and I did time the bake for the Luigiís #2 pizza attempt. We set the timer for 5 minutes and the pie was baked before the 5 minutes, so I guess it was baked in about 4 Ĺ minutes at about 525 degrees F. My taste testers, Steve and I all liked this attempted crust pizza better than my last attempt.  I donít know if the better taste came from the flour combination, or from the longer ferment.  If I had to guess, I would think the better flavor in the crust came from the longer ferment.  Even though the crust almost sounded the same way when being cut, the crust wasnít as tough, if that makes any sense.  The crust could have been better from the flour combination, but still havenít figured that out.

To answer you question about the flour combinations, I have tried so many flour combinations before, and also bromated flours in different experiments.  I know many members might say bromated flour makes a difference in NY style pizzas, but I havenít found that so as of right now.  I have tried All Trumps, Pillsbury Balancer, ADM, and Occident flours in pizzas, which are all bromated.  I do use KASL for my regular pizzas at market, and donít find any of the above mentioned flours that much different in how the dough handles or how the final bake turns out.  One week, a couple of months ago, I made one batch of my market dough with KASL and one batch with ADM.  The next day I couldnít tell any difference in how the dough behaved, baked, or how the pizzas tasted.  I know that sounds weird, and someday I will do those tests again to see if I have the same results. I really donít know, but am leaning towards how a dough is mixed and the formula used, in how a pizza will turn out.  I know not many members will agree on this.  I am just commenting on NY style pizzas and am still experimenting.

Norma

Norma,

The better flavor came most likely from the longer fermentation. Regarding the less tougher - or did you mean chewy? - could have something to do with the flour combo or perhaps the prolonged fermentation, but I am not sure on that. Peter or Scott123 might know more about this.

Any news on the Power flour from your Sales Rep?
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 22, 2011, 11:09:05 PM
When I purchased the two cans of 7/11 tomatoes from Armando, my pizza guy, he asked if he could try "my" (Luigi's) sauce at some point.

Yesterday, I brought him 28oz of sauce to try. I made some slight modifications to the sauce, although it's dynamite just the way it is, mainly I added some dried ground fennel, Pecorino Romano instead of Parmesan, and added a Tsp of sugar to it, dissolved in 1/8th of a cup of water. The rest stayed the same.

When I went in today to ask how the sauce was I got a really surprisingly positive answer. I expected he'd say "It's good but...you know...?" as in "I'm-not-trying-to-hurt-your-feelings" kind of thing.

What I got instead was" It's better than ours! I really like it. And it would be cheaper to make." Apparently, the Stanislaus Full Red Heavy Puree costs more than the Stanislaus 7/11. I don't know what else they add to their sauce in terms of herbs and spices but he asked if I could make him another batch so he can try it with some of his customers.

Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: chickenparm on September 23, 2011, 12:29:45 AM
Mike,

Thats great they loved your sauce.You should ask him to tell you the recipe they use,since maybe you can do something to make it better as well.If they wont share,that sucks.

Sounds like you can do them a favor here.

:)


Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on September 23, 2011, 06:03:14 AM
Mike,

You are probably right that the better flavor most likely came from the longer fermentation, but I wouldnít know unless I tried the Luigiís #1 formula again with a longer fermentation.  To answer you question as less tougher, I meant the crust wasnít as hard to bite, but was still crunchy if that makes any sense.  I really donít know how to explain it right.  As for Alex calling me back about maybe getting some of the Power flour to try, he hasnít called me back.  I left both my cell phone number and home phone number for him, but now my cell phone has died for some reason. I need to decide what new cell phone I want. If Alex doesnít call me back in the next week, I will call him again.

Great to hear Armando, really liked your pizza sauce!  ;D That is funny he thought your sauce was better than his.  :-D

I used baby basil this past week in my sauce for the attempted Luigiís pie, and I think the fresh basil really adds something to the taste of the whole pizza taste.  I use Red Cow Parmesan in my regular sauce, but could imagine your sauce with Pecorino Romano would really taste great.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Nickos219 on September 23, 2011, 11:35:21 AM
Just wanted to say... you guys are awesome.  :)
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 23, 2011, 07:36:16 PM
Norma,

The Luigi #1 has the highest amount of yeast. A longer fermentation might be difficult but if you raise the salt amount it might work. I think Peter mentioned this to me, too.

The sauce thing was a surprise. Armando isn't the owner of the place and said that it's tough for him to try to convince the owner to change the sauce up a bit. He'll give it a try, though. Try the Pecorino some time. It makes a big difference.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 23, 2011, 07:36:53 PM
Just wanted to say... you guys are awesome.  :)

I just wish more people would give this clone a try out.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: chickenparm on September 23, 2011, 08:32:11 PM
How much Pecorino Romano would be ideal for a 28 ounce size? I have my 6 in 1's and have a new block of pecorino romano cheese waiting to be grated.I'm going to make a sauce that Peter and you guys reciped up or made,with some of the 6 in 1's tonight or tomorrow.

I'm only able to get 6 in 1's all purpose ground tomatoes.I was at GFS and the lady there did not see the Peeled Ground tomatoes in the book,but she did give me their email addy and asked me to email all the info I could find so they might try and order me some.A big # 10 can is like $5.45 there so its very cheap to buy.

 :)


Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: chickenparm on September 23, 2011, 08:33:54 PM
Ah,one more question.Red Pepper flake,I cannot find that except crushed red pepper.Is there a difference?
What about ground red pepper? Im not sure which one to buy.I thought you guys meant crushed red pepper but was calling it red pepper flake.

Thanks.
 :)
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on September 23, 2011, 08:47:44 PM
Bill,

If you look at Reply 437 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg153861.html#msg153861, you will see that I clarified the red pepper flakes to say that they are "crushed".

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on September 23, 2011, 09:28:07 PM
Norma,

The Luigi #1 has the highest amount of yeast. A longer fermentation might be difficult but if you raise the salt amount it might work.


Mike,

If I do try Luigiís #1 formula again, I think that amount of yeast would be too much for a 2 day fermentation.  I posted my formula, at Reply 330 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg152799.html#msg152799
The Luigiís #1 formulas did also have more salt than I tried in my last attempt and that dough seemed to ferment in the about the right amount of time.  I can understand more salt might help the dough from fermenting too much, but then I might not like that much salt in the taste of the crust.

I am not sure if I will make another attempt this week on any of Luigiís formulas.  I am still trying to decide on what flours or formula might be the best ones to try.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: chickenparm on September 23, 2011, 10:21:43 PM
Bill,

If you look at Reply 437 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg153861.html#msg153861, you will see that I clarified the red pepper flakes to say that they are "crushed".

Peter

Thanks Peter,I had to be sure and thanks for clarifying it.
 :)
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 23, 2011, 10:55:51 PM
How much Pecorino Romano would be ideal for a 28 ounce size?


Bill,

I'd use 3 maybe 4 grams. 4 grams is pushing it, though.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 23, 2011, 11:03:12 PM
Mike,

If I do try Luigiís #1 formula again, I think that amount of yeast would be too much for a 2 day fermentation.  I posted my formula, at Reply 330 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg152799.html#msg152799
The Luigiís #1 formulas did also have more salt than I tried in my last attempt and that dough seemed to ferment in the about the right amount of time.  I can understand more salt might help the dough from fermenting too much, but then I might not like that much salt in the taste of the crust.

I am not sure if I will make another attempt this week on any of Luigiís formulas.  I am still trying to decide on what flours or formula might be the best ones to try.

Norma

Norma,

What I did was I used the yeast amount from Luigi #4 and kept everything the same in Luigi #1. Worked great.

I am currently working on one Luigi formula that can be used by everybody regardless of flour bag size/weight. However, a universal/generic Luigi clone might not be a 100% achievable because of people using most likely different flours. It's probably more intended as a guideline rather than a set formula. But it can be tailored to different flours, I'm sure, as long as the protein content is somewhere near a high-gluten flour.

Hope it works out...  :-\
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: chickenparm on September 23, 2011, 11:37:58 PM
Bill,

I'd use 3 maybe 4 grams. 4 grams is pushing it, though.

Mike,

Thanks.Im trying to be cautious with the cheese.Less is more approach.I know when I use Parmesan cheese it's very strong,depending on the brand I can find.Pecorino Romano is a bit more forgiving but its easy for me to get carried away since I love it so much.
 :-D

If anyone lurking or just reading wants to know,I do not use pre-grated cheeses in the plastic containers sitting on the shelves in the stores.I buy the wedge shape blocks of solid cheese to grate myself at home.

:)
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 24, 2011, 12:20:44 AM
If anyone lurking or just reading wants to know,I do not use pre-grated cheeses in the plastic containers sitting on the shelves in the stores.I buy the wedge shape blocks of solid cheese to grate myself at home.


It might gel/thicken the sauce as Peter explained here:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg152861.html#msg152861

But the taste of fresh Pecorino is much better!
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Nickos219 on September 24, 2011, 12:30:28 AM
I just wish more people would give this clone a try out.
i know i will when i get all set up
just finally getting really into this but i live in way northern Minnesota and getting decent ingredients can be almost impossible unless i pay a fortune for shipping and order through the internet
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on September 24, 2011, 07:45:14 AM
Norma,

What I did was I used the yeast amount from Luigi #4 and kept everything the same in Luigi #1. Worked great.

I am currently working on one Luigi formula that can be used by everybody regardless of flour bag size/weight. However, a universal/generic Luigi clone might not be a 100% achievable because of people using most likely different flours. It's probably more intended as a guideline rather than a set formula. But it can be tailored to different flours, I'm sure, as long as the protein content is somewhere near a high-gluten flour.

Hope it works out...  :-\


Mike,

I can understand if you used Peterís Luigiís #1 formula at Reply 177 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg151870.html#msg151870 and changed the yeast to the amount in Luigiís # 4 formula in the same reply, that would work okay for a 2 day fermentation.

Good to hear you are currently working on one Luigiís formula that could be used by everyone.  If they have access to high gluten flour and other flours, and then can combine them, that should work out to make a decent Luigiís clone.  Good luck!  :)

I really donít know how my attempts or your attempts have turned out unless someone that has really eaten a real Luigiís pie, would try out one of your formulas, one Peterís formulas, or the ones I have attempted. Even if members do try one of the formulas there is the difference of the ovens they might use, and the ones we used. There is one thing of looking at the pies we made, and another side to tasting a real Luigiís pie in comparison to what we made.  If Luigiís really only ferments his dough for one day, I wouldnít think my second attempt would taste anything like his pies.  

You have the Power flour to experiment with, so your results should be more in line with what Luigiís pies really taste like.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 24, 2011, 12:30:24 PM

Mike,

I can understand if you used Peterís Luigiís #1 formula at Reply 177 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg151870.html#msg151870 and changed the yeast to the amount in Luigiís # 4 formula in the same reply, that would work okay for a 2 day fermentation.

Good to hear you are currently working on one Luigiís formula that could be used by everyone.  If they have access to high gluten flour and other flours, and then can combine them, that should work out to make a decent Luigiís clone.  Good luck!  :)

I really donít know how my attempts or your attempts have turned out unless someone that has really eaten a real Luigiís pie, would try out one of your formulas, one Peterís formulas, or the ones I have attempted. Even if members do try one of the formulas there is the difference of the ovens they might use, and the ones we used. There is one thing of looking at the pies we made, and another side to tasting a real Luigiís pie in comparison to what we made.  If Luigiís really only ferments his dough for one day, I wouldnít think my second attempt would taste anything like his pies.  

You have the Power flour to experiment with, so your results should be more in line with what Luigiís pies really taste like.

Norma


Norma,

True.

I might have to go down to San Diego at some point and try Luigi's for myself. But until that happens, the video is all I can go by for now, unfortunately.

Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 24, 2011, 12:35:07 PM
I made a Luigi #4 last night and ran into two problems...

First one was the crust was way too soft and floppy. It wasn't anywhere near the crunchiness previous pies showed. The second problems was the cheese. I know I asked this question before, but what causes the cheese not to melt properly? When you look at the first pic, the cheese looks like it 'broke' down and turned into an almost webbing-like texture. Could it be the sauce that causes this? Or is the cheese just crap?  :'(

Any advice would be great.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: chickenparm on September 24, 2011, 01:42:04 PM
Mike,
What cheese did you use for this one?

I see this happen a bit more often when I use whole milk mozz from walmart or some other store brands.I think its because there is too much moisture or water in it,it breaks down into ricotta almost.

Its a guess,not a scientific fact,I really cant say for sure.I just do not notice this problem happening when Im using a drier cheese,like a block of say kraft part skim low moisture mozz that I shred by hand.(I do not use the bag cheese either,too much burning)

That pie still looks good to me though.
 :)
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: chickenparm on September 24, 2011, 01:47:16 PM
i know i will when i get all set up
just finally getting really into this but i live in way northern Minnesota and getting decent ingredients can be almost impossible unless i pay a fortune for shipping and order through the internet

Not to worry,you can still make excellent pizza using store brought products.I make good pizza using King Arthur Bread Flour ,wal mart block of mozz cheese and walmart crushed tomatoes for sauces at times.It took me a while to find certain brands that are actually good enough to use.

I sometimes will use a block of kraft mozz cheese I shred at home.Do not buy bags of preshredded cheese either,they will burn faster and they do not taste as good.

Of course,cloning a recipe is a bit of a different story since we are trying to get as close as possible,but you can still make a great pie using store bought stuff.Its when it all comes together that makes it great.
 :)
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on September 24, 2011, 02:42:48 PM


I might have to go down to San Diego at some point and try Luigi's for myself. But until that happens, the video is all I can go by for now, unfortunately.


I made a Luigi #4 last night and ran into two problems...

First one was the crust was way too soft and floppy. It wasn't anywhere near the crunchiness previous pies showed. The second problems was the cheese. I know I asked this question before, but what causes the cheese not to melt properly? When you look at the first pic, the cheese looks like it 'broke' down and turned into an almost webbing-like texture. Could it be the sauce that causes this? Or is the cheese just crap?  :'(

Any advice would be great.


Mike,

Hope you do get to visit Luigiís someday to try his pizza.  :)  I wonít ever get to visit Luigiís, so all I have to go by is the video and pictures posted on the web.

What do you think happened with the crust that it got too soft and floppy?  What did you dough ball look like before you opened it?  Did you do a one day cold ferment?  Also, what did you think about the taste in the crust with the lesser amount of salt in the Luigiís #4 formula.  Visually, your pie looks very appetizing.  

I also wonder what brand of mozzarella you used like Bill asked.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on September 24, 2011, 03:04:47 PM
Mike,

I donít know exactly which dough formulation you last used and what happened to your dough, but you and Norma are on the right track to coming up with a generic dough formulation to use.

As you know, all of the dough formulations at Reply 177 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg151870.html#msg151870 are identical but for the amounts of flour. That is why the bakerís percents are different for the four formulations but for the flour, which is always 100%. I was going to suggest a generic dough formulation but you and Norma beat me to the punch. However, I think that there are a couple of things to consider. First, we donít know whether Luigi changed the dough formulation or his methods since the video shoot in the fall of 2008. We were also informed in the article that Norma found at http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2009/aug/12/save-your-dough/ that Luigi changes his recipe three times a year based on the weather.

Usually, the best way to make weather-related changes is to adjust the water temperature, which should be easy enough to do when using bottled water. The hydration and/or the amount of yeast can also be changed. I do not think that adjusting the salt levels is a particularly good approach for a dough that is to be cold fermented. I think that is a better approach for making a room-temperature fermented dough, as is typically done with Neapolitan style doughs. Whatever changes Luigi makes, you want the workers who actually make the dough to be able to implement the changes easily and consistently. I took a look at a typical chart of average high and low temperatures in San Diego, at http://www.rssweather.com/climate/California/San%20Diego/, and while I donít know at exactly which points Luigi changes his recipe I would think that the changes would be before the hot and cold weather hit. Humidity may also be a factor in the changes. We can only speculate as to the specific types of changes Luigi makes to his dough recipe.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 24, 2011, 03:14:04 PM
Norma & Bill,

I use Saputo's low-moisture, part-skim mozzarella I got through my pizza guy. I bought two 6lb blocks and the first one was fine, the second is giving me problems. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg151772.html#msg151772

I might get some Grande through him just to see the difference.

The crust was floppy as all hell, to be honest. The dough ball looked fine and was very easy to handle even with a 65% hydration considering that Pendleton said it's best at around 63% or so. Bake time and temp was pretty much the same as with all other Luigi pies. It's puzzling... ???

Here's a video. It's the same pie as pictured above but I put fresh basil on...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2u6dTgxwHI
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 24, 2011, 03:20:26 PM
Mike,

I donít know exactly which dough formulation you last used and what happened to your dough, but you and Norma are on the right track to coming up with a generic dough formulation to use.

As you know, all of the dough formulations at Reply 177 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg151870.html#msg151870 are identical but for the amounts of flour. That is why the bakerís percents are different for the four formulations but for the flour, which is always 100%. I was going to suggest a generic dough formulation but you and Norma beat me to the punch. However, I think that there are a couple of things to consider. First, we donít know whether Luigi changed the dough formulation or his methods since the video shoot in the fall of 2008. We were also informed in the article that Norma found at http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2009/aug/12/save-your-dough/ that Luigi changes his recipe three times a year based on the weather.

Usually, the best way to make weather-related changes is to adjust the water temperature, which should be easy enough to do when using bottled water. The hydration and/or the amount of yeast can also be changed. I do not think that adjusting the salt levels is a particularly good approach for a dough that is to be cold fermented. I think that is a better approach for making a room-temperature fermented dough, as is typically done with Neapolitan style doughs. Whatever changes Luigi makes, you want the workers who actually make the dough to be able to implement the changes easily and consistently. I took a look at a typical chart of average high and low temperatures in San Diego, at http://www.rssweather.com/climate/California/San%20Diego/, and while I donít know at exactly which points Luigi changes his recipe I would think that the changes would be before the hot and cold weather hit. Humidity may also be a factor in the changes. We can only speculate as to the specific types of changes Luigi makes to his dough recipe.

Peter


Peter,

Excellent points which all need definitely to be considered when coming up with a generic formulation for the Luigi clone. I don't have an exact formula in mind nor a timeline on how to approach the generic formula but I have some ideas I'd like to test. That also includes two different flours, the Costco Harvest Bread flour and KABF, since they are probably most accessible to other members compared to the Power flour.

But please also post any ideas for a generic clone formula you might have.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on September 24, 2011, 03:35:18 PM
Mike,

That is puzzling that the same brand of Saputoís part-skim mozzarella is acting different. Thanks for posting the video on how floppy you pie turned out.  That is puzzling too. :-\

I agree with you, that I would appreciate if Peter would set-forth a generic dough formulation.  Since Peter is much better at formulations, and can understand why stuff happens much more than I can, I think it would be helpful, at least for me.  I think his ideas of what to change or not to change would be better than mine.

Mike, great you are thinking about using different flours to try do a Luigiís clone for other members.  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: scott123 on September 24, 2011, 04:15:56 PM
Mike, your cheese curdled. The protein curds separated from the watery whey.  In most dishes (mac & cheese especially), curdling produces something inedible, but, when it happens on pizza, the end result is a bit wet, but not completely disgusting, especially if you bake it a bit longer and dry out some of the moisture.  It's still something, that you generally want to avoid, though.  Packaged fior di latte has the greatest propensity towards curdling with longer bake times, but some of the low moisture brick stuff will curdle as well.  Age is one of the biggest culprits.  I think it's obvious that you're having issues with the second block because you've had it around too long.

I don't see cheese sales during the summer, but, during the rest of the year, every couple months I'll see brick mozz (polly-o, sorrento, private label, etc.) go on sale for 1.99/lb.   I have to be really careful about buying too much in advance, though, because if I let the cheese sit around for more than a few weeks, it will curdle when it comes time to make pizza.  Part skim seems to last a bit longer, and some brands seem to hold their own longer as well.  Grande never goes on sale, so I tend to buy it when I need it, so I can't attest to how it reacts over time, but I have been amazed at how well it melts. I've seen some brands curdle on me straight from the store, but never Grande.  I've also seen some brands fail to bubble and brown on top, but, again, never Grande. Nothing melts like Grande.  In a sense, Grande is like the anti-fior di latte. I don't like the lack of creaminess in melted polly-o, but I have to admit that polly-o seems to last longer then most supermarket brands of brick.  Sorrento has also given me pretty good stability as well. 

When I reach for a non grande cheese, I grab the firmest chunk I can find.  Generally speaking, firm (for brick) equals fresh.  If, after a few weeks in the fridge, the cheese is noticeably softer, I won't use it for pizza, regardless of whether or not it has spots or smells off.

For stability:

Soft, white, wet = worst
Firm, off white/translucent, dry = best

Your particular cheese is supposed to be a Grande facsimile, but, from the color and the way it's melted in the past, I'm not really seeing it. The fact that it's curdling on you after less than a month of refrigeration is, imo, the nail on the coffin.  Time for a new brand of cheese.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 24, 2011, 05:35:28 PM
Mike, your cheese curdled. The protein curds separated from the watery whey.  In most dishes (mac & cheese especially), curdling produces something inedible, but, when it happens on pizza, the end result is a bit wet, but not completely disgusting, especially if you bake it a bit longer and dry out some of the moisture.  It's still something, that you generally want to avoid, though.  Packaged fior di latte has the greatest propensity towards curdling with longer bake times, but some of the low moisture brick stuff will curdle as well.  Age is one of the biggest culprits.  I think it's obvious that you're having issues with the second block because you've had it around too long.

I don't see cheese sales during the summer, but, during the rest of the year, every couple months I'll see brick mozz (polly-o, sorrento, private label, etc.) go on sale for 1.99/lb.   I have to be really careful about buying too much in advance, though, because if I let the cheese sit around for more than a few weeks, it will curdle when it comes time to make pizza.  Part skim seems to last a bit longer, and some brands seem to hold their own longer as well.  Grande never goes on sale, so I tend to buy it when I need it, so I can't attest to how it reacts over time, but I have been amazed at how well it melts. I've seen some brands curdle on me straight from the store, but never Grande.  I've also seen some brands fail to bubble and brown on top, but, again, never Grande. Nothing melts like Grande.  In a sense, Grande is like the anti-fior di latte. I don't like the lack of creaminess in melted polly-o, but I have to admit that polly-o seems to last longer then most supermarket brands of brick.  Sorrento has also given me pretty good stability as well. 

When I reach for a non grande cheese, I grab the firmest chunk I can find.  Generally speaking, firm (for brick) equals fresh.  If, after a few weeks in the fridge, the cheese is noticeably softer, I won't use it for pizza, regardless of whether or not it has spots or smells off.

For stability:

Soft, white, wet = worst
Firm, off white/translucent, dry = best

Your particular cheese is supposed to be a Grande facsimile, but, from the color and the way it's melted in the past, I'm not really seeing it. The fact that it's curdling on you after less than a month of refrigeration is, imo, the nail on the coffin.  Time for a new brand of cheese.

Scotty,

Thanks a bunch for shedding some light on that issue.

I have used Grande before, as a matter of fact just recently, and the experience was great albeit a not so good one I had with it in the past. The Saputo is not really a competition to Grande, I'm afraid. The melting capabilities are just not there.

I see if I can get a block of Grande from my pizza guy some time next week.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: scott123 on September 24, 2011, 07:29:44 PM
Mike, I know that Grande is very expensive for you, so I'm not necessarily pushing you to spend that kind of money. I'm just pointing out that, from my experience, stability is one of many areas in which Grande excels. I don't think it's worth $10+/lb, though.

I've never tried it myself, but do you have access to Boar's Head?  It looks like it's dry, slightly yellow and firm, aka, slightly grande-ish.

And, although I went from being a private label fan to a Grande devotee, I still think private label has it's merits.  As I said, if you can find a firm package and use it quickly, it will melt beautifully and won't cost you an arm and a leg.  Grande has a buttery quality, while private label, at it's best, is creamy.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 24, 2011, 07:40:02 PM
Mike, I know that Grande is very expensive for you, so I'm not necessarily pushing you to spend that kind of money. I'm just pointing out that, from my experience, stability is one of many areas in which Grande excels. I don't think it's worth $10+/lb, though.

I've never tried it myself, but do you have access to Boar's Head?  It looks like it's dry, slightly yellow and firm, aka, slightly grande-ish.

And, although I went from being a private label fan to a Grande devotee, I still think private label has it's merits.  As I said, if you can find a firm package and use it quickly, it will melt beautifully and won't cost you an arm and a leg.  Grande has a buttery quality, while private label, at it's best, is creamy.

Scotty,

Grande over here is sold at a high mark-up per pound. Even my pizza guy mentioned Grande is more costly for them than other cheeses but given the quality, it's great.

I just found out today, though, that Grande launched its "Piacci" label in 2008 and its widely available here so I'll check on some prices. If they're sky-high I'll order a 6lb block from my pizza guy, which he mentioned runs around $28 if I'm not mistaken.

http://www.piacci.com/cheese/whole-milk-mozzarella
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: chickenparm on September 24, 2011, 08:40:46 PM
Mike, your cheese curdled. The protein curds separated from the watery whey.  In most dishes (mac & cheese especially), curdling produces something inedible, but, when it happens on pizza, the end result is a bit wet, but not completely disgusting, especially if you bake it a bit longer and dry out some of the moisture.  It's still something, that you generally want to avoid, though.  Packaged fior di latte has the greatest propensity towards curdling with longer bake times, but some of the low moisture brick stuff will curdle as well.  Age is one of the biggest culprits.  I think it's obvious that you're having issues with the second block because you've had it around too long.

I don't see cheese sales during the summer, but, during the rest of the year, every couple months I'll see brick mozz (polly-o, sorrento, private label, etc.) go on sale for 1.99/lb.   I have to be really careful about buying too much in advance, though, because if I let the cheese sit around for more than a few weeks, it will curdle when it comes time to make pizza.  Part skim seems to last a bit longer, and some brands seem to hold their own longer as well.  Grande never goes on sale, so I tend to buy it when I need it, so I can't attest to how it reacts over time, but I have been amazed at how well it melts. I've seen some brands curdle on me straight from the store, but never Grande.  I've also seen some brands fail to bubble and brown on top, but, again, never Grande. Nothing melts like Grande.  In a sense, Grande is like the anti-fior di latte. I don't like the lack of creaminess in melted polly-o, but I have to admit that polly-o seems to last longer then most supermarket brands of brick.  Sorrento has also given me pretty good stability as well. 

When I reach for a non grande cheese, I grab the firmest chunk I can find.  Generally speaking, firm (for brick) equals fresh.  If, after a few weeks in the fridge, the cheese is noticeably softer, I won't use it for pizza, regardless of whether or not it has spots or smells off.

For stability:

Soft, white, wet = worst
Firm, off white/translucent, dry = best

Your particular cheese is supposed to be a Grande facsimile, but, from the color and the way it's melted in the past, I'm not really seeing it. The fact that it's curdling on you after less than a month of refrigeration is, imo, the nail on the coffin.  Time for a new brand of cheese.

Scott,can cheese that is not chilled properly in the stores cause it to breakdown faster in the oven?I mean,they keep it cold,but sometimes I think "Not cold enough."

I notice when I buy cheese,say whole milk mozz, and if the block feels a little bit warm,even though its been sitting in the fridge aisle on a cold shelf,it seems to be more "watery" or squishy in a sense,than one that is colder.

Thanks.

 :)




Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Jet_deck on September 24, 2011, 09:02:09 PM
Were you pretty careful cheesing the pizza?  Any chance you over-cheesed the center?  Probably not, but I thought I would mention it bro.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 25, 2011, 06:16:11 PM
Were you pretty careful cheesing the pizza?  Any chance you over-cheesed the center?  Probably not, but I thought I would mention it bro.

JD,

Thanks for the tip.

I don't think I over-cheesed the pie. The curdling didn't really occur in the center, it was more toward the outside and it shows in the pic I posted. I think Scotty is right with his analysis about the cheese and its problem.

I am looking for some different Mozza right now. Saputo was worth the try, though.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Jet_deck on September 25, 2011, 10:26:35 PM
Carry on Mike.  It looks super crispy and good.  I am especially interested in the exact sauce that you choose for the experiment.  I would love to have bakers percents to replicate it in my home....  :chef:
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: scott123 on September 25, 2011, 11:23:19 PM
Scott,can cheese that is not chilled properly in the stores cause it to breakdown faster in the oven?I mean,they keep it cold,but sometimes I think "Not cold enough."

I notice when I buy cheese,say whole milk mozz, and if the block feels a little bit warm,even though its been sitting in the fridge aisle on a cold shelf,it seems to be more "watery" or squishy in a sense,than one that is colder.

Bill, all dairy products contain micro-organisms that grow faster at higher temps.  It's these micro-organisms that lower the pH of the milk/cheese and cause it to be more curdle-prone. The lower the temperature, the slower the growth.   If a market is storing the cheese at a slightly higher temperature than normal, then it will spoil faster and curdle easier.

Cheese was basically invented to prolong the life span of milk, though, so some time at room temp is not the end of the world.  My previous source for Grande used to sell it wrapped in plastic at room temp.  I wouldn't take this home and store it for a month or two, but, when I used it in a day or two, I never had a problem.  Also be aware that warm cheese is naturally softer than cold cheese, so when you take warm cheese home and toss it in the fridge, assuming that the store hasn't completely abused it, it should firm up.  The warning sign that I'm telling people to look out for is cheese that's a bit squishy and soft when cold.  That's when you know it's past it's prime.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 25, 2011, 11:53:04 PM
Carry on Mike.  It looks super crispy and good.  I am especially interested in the exact sauce that you choose for the experiment.  I would love to have bakers percents to replicate it in my home....  :chef:

JD,

Peter posted a Baker's percent version of said sauce here:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg153103.html#msg153103

Let us know, if you make it and use it, how you liked it since every individual's palate is different  :)
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 25, 2011, 11:54:43 PM
Bill, all dairy products contain micro-organisms that grow faster at higher temps.  It's these micro-organisms that lower the pH of the milk/cheese and cause it to be more curdle-prone. The lower the temperature, the slower the growth.   If a market is storing the cheese at a slightly higher temperature than normal, then it will spoil faster and curdle easier.

Cheese was basically invented to prolong the life span of milk, though, so some time at room temp is not the end of the world.  My previous source for Grande used to sell it wrapped in plastic at room temp.  I wouldn't take this home and store it for a month or two, but, when I used it in a day or two, I never had a problem.  Also be aware that warm cheese is naturally softer than cold cheese, so when you take warm cheese home and toss it in the fridge, assuming that the store hasn't completely abused it, it should firm up.  The warning sign that I'm telling people to look out for is cheese that's a bit squishy and soft when cold.  That's when you know it's past it's prime.

Scotty,

I'm always amazed at your knowledge. Where do you get that from?  ;D

Either way, thanks for the informative and educational post.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: chickenparm on September 26, 2011, 12:24:23 AM
Scott,
Thanks for the reply.It was very helpful!
 8)







Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on September 26, 2011, 08:09:41 AM
If anyone is interested, I saw an article on PMQTT recently about what was the best type of flour to use for NY style pizzas.  It seems Tom Lehmann doesnít see much differences in what type of high-gluten flour is used for NY style pizzas.  He posted they did tests on high-gluten flours and couldnít see much difference in the performance of using different high protein flours.  If anyone wants to read the thread it is at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=10668

Makes me wonder now since I tried KASL and also bromated flours as I posted at Reply 452 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg154018.html#msg154018  and saw there really wasnít any difference in my pizzas (preferment Lehmann) from using KASL or bromated flours, if the brand of high-gluten flour doesnít matter at all, or maybe only a small amount, unless you want to stay away from bromated flours.  Tom said bromated flours only helps a little more with the memory of the dough as he posted at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=10668#p73798

I know this thread for Luigiís pizza to be really cloned needs Power flour for the cloning process, but wonder if it matters if members or other guests just use whatever high-gluten flour they have on hand.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Jet_deck on September 26, 2011, 08:45:51 AM
JD,

Peter posted a Baker's percent version of said sauce here:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg153103.html#msg153103

Let us know, if you make it and use it, how you liked it since every individual's palate is different  :)

I was referring to reply #456 where you added some more stuff.  I am ultimately curious as to what Armondo got to try....
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: scott123 on September 26, 2011, 04:12:01 PM
Mike, you're welcome. Thanks for your kind words.

Bill, you're welcome.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 26, 2011, 05:55:39 PM
I was referring to reply #456 where you added some more stuff.  I am ultimately curious as to what Armondo got to try....

JD,

I have the numbers saved on my work computer and will post them tomorrow. Off today.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: PizzaEater101 on September 27, 2011, 02:15:54 PM

True.

I might have to go down to San Diego at some point and try Luigi's for myself. But until that happens, the video is all I can go by for now, unfortunately.



Mike,

I have not been on the Pizza Forum for a few days and missed a lot of good post, gotta catch up on my reading.  Learning a lot here.

As far as Luigi in SD goes remember there are two locations.  I did not know that when I went to SD during the summer but lucked out to go to the right one, I mean the one where DDD was filmed.   I don't know if you want to go to both locations just to see how consistent they are but if you only go to one just make sure it's the right one.

Luigi -

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=1137+25th+Street+San+Diego,+CA&sll=32.755935,-117.142024&sspn=0.008734,0.020041&ie=UTF8&ll=32.718717,-117.140265&spn=0.008738,0.020041&z=16&iwloc=A

Off the pizza subject, if you go to SD go to eat at Athony's Fish Grotto if you like fish.  There are two of them too, one on the wharf by the Star of India clipper ship and one inland.  Guess which one I recommend?  Yes, you got it, the one on the wharf.  I never been to the one inland but it makes no sense to eat fish there if you can eat it on the wharf.   

http://www.gofishanthonys.com/index2.html
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: PizzaEater101 on September 27, 2011, 02:23:10 PM
Anyone here have experience with Trader Joe's brand whole milk moz or even the part-skim? What do you think of that?


Thanks
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Jackie Tran on September 27, 2011, 02:28:27 PM
Anyone here have experience with Trader Joe's brand whole milk moz or even the part-skim? What do you think of that?


Thanks

It's good stuff.  I approve of it.  ;D
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: PizzaEater101 on September 27, 2011, 02:32:17 PM
It's good stuff.  I approve of it.  ;D

Jackie, thanks for the input.  It's so readily available and the price is right.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 27, 2011, 03:23:33 PM
Mike,

I have not been on the Pizza Forum for a few days and missed a lot of good post, gotta catch up on my reading.  Learning a lot here.

As far as Luigi in SD goes remember there are two locations.  I did not know that when I went to SD during the summer but lucked out to go to the right one, I mean the one where DDD was filmed.   I don't know if you want to go to both locations just to see how consistent they are but if you only go to one just make sure it's the right one.

Luigi -

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=1137+25th+Street+San+Diego,+CA&sll=32.755935,-117.142024&sspn=0.008734,0.020041&ie=UTF8&ll=32.718717,-117.140265&spn=0.008738,0.020041&z=16&iwloc=A

Off the pizza subject, if you go to SD go to eat at Athony's Fish Grotto if you like fish.  There are two of them too, one on the wharf by the Star of India clipper ship and one inland.  Guess which one I recommend?  Yes, you got it, the one on the wharf.  I never been to the one inland but it makes no sense to eat fish there if you can eat it on the wharf.   

http://www.gofishanthonys.com/index2.html


PE101,

Thanks for the tip on Anthony's Fish Grotto. I have heard of the place before but never went when I was in San Diego previously. Worth checking out.

Regarding the TJ mozzarella, I believe TJ's changed companies. The previous one was made by the Cascade Dairy Products in Hayward, CA. Costco still carries it in 6lbs blogs.

http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?prodid=11543104&whse=BD_827&topnav=bdoff&cat=28587&hierPath=11276*28587*&lang=en-US

Slice Serious Eats also had a testing on the new TJ's mozzarella:

http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2011/02/the-pizza-lab-the-best-low-moisture-mozzarella-for-pizzas-slideshow.html#show-142859

I don't know if the packaging only changed and if the cheese is still made by Cascade or not.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: PizzaEater101 on September 27, 2011, 03:32:53 PM
Mike, thanks for the tip on the Costco block of cheese.  I think I'll have to get that.  Thanks for the Serious Eats link too, I find it interesting and helpful.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 27, 2011, 08:49:37 PM
I was referring to reply #456 where you added some more stuff.  I am ultimately curious as to what Armondo got to try....

JD,

Here are the numbers for one #10 can 7/11 tomatoes. Don't have the Baker's Percent but it shouldn't be hard to figure out. Those numbers are also what Armando got from me.

Red pepper flakes:            1 gram
Fennel powder:           1.25 grams
Greek dried oregano:         2 grams
Sugar:                 2 grams
Sea Salt:                       2.75 grams
Coarse Black pepper:         0.75 grams
Garlic powder:               7.5 grams
Grated Parmesan cheese:    14.5 grams
(Kraft type or similar)

Fresh, chopped basil:          1.75 grams

Total seasoning mix weight:   33.5 grams

Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Jet_deck on September 28, 2011, 12:32:32 AM
JD,

Here are the numbers for one #10 can 7/11 tomatoes. Don't have the Baker's Percent but it shouldn't be hard to figure out. Those numbers are also what Armando got from me.

Red pepper flakes:            1 gram
Fennel powder:           1.25 grams
Greek dried oregano:         2 grams
Sugar:                 2 grams
Sea Salt:                       2.75 grams
Coarse Black pepper:         0.75 grams
Garlic powder:               7.5 grams
Grated Parmesan cheese:    14.5 grams
(Kraft type or similar)

Fresh, chopped basil:          1.75 grams

Total seasoning mix weight:   33.5 grams


TY, soon this will get a go on some pizza here in the Lone Star State.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 28, 2011, 07:38:32 PM
TY, soon this will get a go on some pizza here in the Lone Star State.

JD,

Let us know how you like it or what your thoughts are on the concoction.  :)
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on September 30, 2011, 12:22:08 AM
Luigi's #4, 24hr cold ferment and dressed as a Quattro Stagioni...

I couldn't cut into it because it was for my taste testers tonight. I am currently awaiting word on it.

Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on October 02, 2011, 08:10:36 AM
Luigi's #4, 24hr cold ferment and dressed as a Quattro Stagioni...

I couldn't cut into it because it was for my taste testers tonight. I am currently awaiting word on it.



Mike,

You Luigi's #4 attempt looks very tasty.  :)  What did you taste testers think of your pie?

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on October 02, 2011, 09:26:49 PM
Norma,

"Heavy".

That was the feedback. I don't really know what they meant by it because the toppings were very balanced, not too much cheese and the crust was thin. I have to ask for more details...

I made another attempt at Luigi's #4 with a two-day cold rise. It came out nicely but I used a bit too much cheese. I still have to find the balance between sauce, cheese and toppings that is up to what I am envisioning.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on October 02, 2011, 09:28:59 PM
Oh and the bottom of the crust wasn't as nicely browned as previous Luigi's pies. It was rather pale.  :'(

Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: scott123 on October 03, 2011, 03:51:51 AM
I don't know Mike, that's not a bad looking undercrust at all.  I wouldn't necessarily give up on pushing the cheese envelope.  The only downside to using more cheese is that it's harder to melt.  I find that using room temp sauce rather than refrigerated sauce helps. I will occasionally toss the sauce in the microwave for a bit to give it a little more warmth.

The cheese, for my tastes, is a bit undermelted, but, overall, those are really nice pizzas.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: chickenparm on October 03, 2011, 01:53:09 PM
I say the pies look great! Would love to try some of that!
 8)
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: parallei on October 03, 2011, 05:04:52 PM
Those are some fine looking pies Mike.  Those slices with pepperoni ...... :chef:
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Jet_deck on October 03, 2011, 06:57:18 PM
JD,

Let us know how you like it or what your thoughts are on the concoction.  :)

I put the suggested mix on the neo pizzas cooked here: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12521.new.html#new (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12521.new.html#new)

It is very good, I liked it alot.  Mike I am sure yours is better though, I thought I had 7/11 but had Full Red instead.  I used 500 gr full red, 500 gr water and just over a third of a full batch of the spice mix.  Its a keeper, but I really want to get some 7/11 and do it again...
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on October 04, 2011, 12:31:35 PM
I put the suggested mix on the neo pizzas cooked here: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12521.new.html#new (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12521.new.html#new)

It is very good, I liked it alot.  Mike I am sure yours is better though, I thought I had 7/11 but had Full Red instead.  I used 500 gr full red, 500 gr water and just over a third of a full batch of the spice mix.  Its a keeper, but I really want to get some 7/11 and do it again...

JD,

The sauce is great and even better with the 7/11s. You could also do a combo of 2/3 7/11 and 1/3 Full red. Just a thought.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on October 04, 2011, 08:48:01 PM
On Saturday I gave my pizza guy Armando my modified Luigi sauce clone seasoning to try out and today I went in to see how he liked it. He made the sauce yesterday, using 4 cans of 7/11 tomatoes and here's what he had to say...

Quote
"It's a much, much better sauce compared to what we use. You can actually taste the tomatoes and their freshness. The herbs and spices add a subtle but great flavor to the sauce. I really like it."

Today is also the day where they start putting it on their pies. He said his customers will definitely notice the difference. He has to talk to his boss but there's a chance that they might switch sauces. He currently uses the Full Red and showed me their in-house seasoning mix which consists of a little dried basil, some oregano, fresh but sauteed garlic and tons of salt and sugar, which he explained as a 4:1 ration (sugar to salt).

Overall, he was quite impressed and made me a pie to taste it for myself. It was like night and day. Very cool...

Below's the pie with its new sauce.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: PizzaEater101 on October 05, 2011, 01:19:34 PM
Congrats, Mike.  You developed a sauce that is so good that a pizza establishment is willing to start using as their own on their pies.  Well it's your recipe not theirs because you developed it but what I mean is they will be using it on their pies they make.  I know you cloned the Luigi but you actually developed it because Luigi didn't give you the recipe nor have you tried the Luigi sauce and tried to duplicate it, you went by the video and came up with an excellent sauce.  I gotta make it but I have so much canned stuff I can't make any for a bit.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on October 05, 2011, 01:29:29 PM
PE101,

I don't know if I can take any credit for it but thanks for the kind words. If it weren't for Peter and his excellent eye regarding figuring out the amounts shown in the video and his conversions we'd probably still guessing about the sauce.

Also, I went with the numbers Peter gave me and merely added some fennel powder and a bit of sugar, used Pecorino instead of a Kraft-type Parmesan and out came that sauce. 

I'll check back with Armando today to see how things are turning out.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: PizzaEater101 on October 05, 2011, 01:50:19 PM
PE101,

I don't know if I can take any credit for it but thanks for the kind words. If it weren't for Peter and his excellent eye regarding figuring out the amounts shown in the video and his conversions we'd probably still guessing about the sauce.

Also, I went with the numbers Peter gave me and merely added some fennel powder and a bit of sugar, used Pecorino instead of a Kraft-type Parmesan and out came that sauce. 

I'll check back with Armando today to see how things are turning out.

Mike, very true.  It was a group effort between you and Peter.  I think both you and Peter came up with a real winner and if you and Peter did not work together on this it would not have come to fruition!
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on October 05, 2011, 02:03:04 PM
Mike, very true.  It was a group effort between you and Peter.  I think both you and Peter came up with a real winner and if you and Peter did not work together on this it would not have come to fruition!

You shouldn't forget scott123, Norma and Jet_deck (Gene) either. They were major participants in the effort also. In fact, some of the best clues and leads and insights came from them that allowed me to come up with the actual Luigi clone dough formulations for the members to play around with. Unfortunately, too few members follow the thread closely enough to see who contributed what.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on October 05, 2011, 02:08:40 PM
You shouldn't forget scott123, Norma and Jet_deck (Gene) either. They were major participants in the effort also. In fact, some of the best clues and leads and insights came from them that allowed me to come up with the actual Luigi clone dough formulations for the members to play around with. Unfortunately, too few members follow the thread closely enough to see who contributed what.

Peter

Peter,

You beat me to it.  ;D

I didn't mean to leave those guys out but I'm glad you mentioned Scotty, JD and Norma. They contributed in a big way.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: PizzaEater101 on October 05, 2011, 02:13:07 PM
You shouldn't forget scott123, Norma and Jet_deck (Gene) either. They were major participants in the effort also. In fact, some of the best clues and leads and insights came from them that allowed me to come up with the actual Luigi clone dough formulations for the members to play around with. Unfortunately, too few members follow the thread closely enough to see who contributed what.

Peter

Very true.  Sorry scott123, Norma and Jet_deck.  I have been following the thread but there are so many post it slipped my mind who exactly contributed to what portion of the clone.  But I do recall Norma and Jet_deck for taking part in it.  And if I make it to PA sometime I'm taking Norma up on being able to be a taste tester!
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on October 05, 2011, 07:29:52 PM
I had tried to contact Alex at Pendleton flour different times in the last few weeks, about if there is anywhere that distributed Power flour in my area.  Each time I called, Alexís voice mail was either full, or it said he wasnít accepting calls. I called Alex a little while ago again, and Alex answered the phone.  Alex remembered me and asked me if one of the sales reps didnít contact me, and I said no.  Alex said maybe there werenít any distributors in my area, but apologized for no one getting back to me.  I asked Alex if he knows what big companies might distribute for Pendleton flours.  He asked me if there were any Syscoís in my area and I said yes, there is a Sycoís in Harrisburg, Pa. Alex said instead of me waiting for a sales rep to call me back maybe I want to go to Sycoís and purchase some of the Power flour to try.  I said I am familiar with Sycoís and know they have a 500.00 limit on what must be purchased and I only wanted to try the Power flour to see if the Power flour makes my pizzas any better. I said my regular distributor isnít Sycoís.  Alex then said he was going to get some of the Power flour and send me 20 lbs. to try.  I donít know if I will get the 20 lbs. of Power flour to try, but I will wait and see if that happens. Alex did take my name and address.  If I do get the Power flour to try in Peterís formulas he set-forth, then after a few experiments  to see how the Power flour acts in the formulas for LuigiĎs attempts, I might try to add VWG to KABF to see if I can get anywhere near the same results that I got with my blends of flours before, or with the real Power flour. That way maybe other members that donít have access to the Power flour or KASL, can come up with a decent Luigiís clone if they want to.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on October 05, 2011, 07:44:46 PM
I had tried to contact Alex at Pendleton flour different times in the last few weeks, about if there is anywhere that distributed Power flour in my area.  Each time I called, Alexís voice mail was either full, or it said he wasnít accepting calls. I called Alex a little while ago again, and Alex answered the phone.  Alex remembered me and asked me if one of the sales reps didnít contact me, and I said no.  Alex said maybe there werenít any distributors in my area, but apologized for no one getting back to me.  I asked Alex if he knows what big companies might distribute for Pendleton flours.  He asked me if there were any Syscoís in my area and I said yes, there is a Sycoís in Harrisburg, Pa. Alex said instead of me waiting for a sales rep to call me back maybe I want to go to Sycoís and purchase some of the Power flour to try.  I said I am familiar with Sycoís and know they have a 500.00 limit on what must be purchased and I only wanted to try the Power flour to see if the Power flour makes my pizzas any better. I said my regular distributor isnít Sycoís.  Alex then said he was going to get some of the Power flour and send me 20 lbs. to try.  I donít know if I will get the 20 lbs. of Power flour to try, but I will wait and see if that happens. Alex did take my name and address.  If I do get the Power flour to try in Peterís formulas he set-forth, then after a few experiments  to see how the Power flour acts in the formulas for LuigiĎs attempts, I might try to add VWG to KABF to see if I can get anywhere near the same results that I got with my blends of flours before, or with the real Power flour. That way maybe other members that donít have access to the Power flour or KASL, can come up with a decent Luigiís clone if they want to.

Norma

Norma,

That guy sounds like a fluke but who knows. Maybe he's just very busy.

Milner Milling, who's associated with Pendleton, has four mills alone in GA, TN and AL so it must be possible to get some of the flour on the East Coast. I don't think Sysco carries it but could be wrong.

http://www.pfmills.com/mill-locations-pages-19.php
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on October 05, 2011, 07:52:17 PM
Norma,

That guy sounds like a fluke but who knows. Maybe he's just very busy.

Milner Milling, who's associated with Pendleton, has four mills alone in GA, TN and AL so it must be possible to get some of the flour on the East Coast. I don't think Sysco carries it but could be wrong.

http://www.pfmills.com/mill-locations-pages-19.php

Mike,

I donít know if Alex is very busy or what happened, but I will wait and see if I get any sample of the Power flour.  I really donít want to get a bag a whole bag of Power flour and have it shipped, it would be too expensive.  I can call Sycoís in Harrisburg and see if they carry the Power flour in the next few days.  When I first started making pizza, I had bought some frozen skins at Sycoís in Harrisburg, and didnít need a 500.00 minimum order, but you do need a 500.00 order for then to deliver.

Thanks for the link to where they carry Pendleton flours. 

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: derschuh on October 06, 2011, 01:54:33 PM
PE101,

I don't know if I can take any credit for it but thanks for the kind words. If it weren't for Peter and his excellent eye regarding figuring out the amounts shown in the video and his conversions we'd probably still guessing about the sauce.

Also, I went with the numbers Peter gave me and merely added some fennel powder and a bit of sugar, used Pecorino instead of a Kraft-type Parmesan and out came that sauce. 

I'll check back with Armando today to see how things are turning out.

Hello,
First attempt at posting.
How much Pecorino did you use?
Keep up the great work!

shoe
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on October 06, 2011, 04:03:10 PM

Hello,
First attempt at posting.
How much Pecorino did you use?
Keep up the great work!

shoe

DerSchuh,

You can find the numbers by clicking on the link below.

Keep in mind that this is for a #10 can of tomatoes and not a 28oz can. Just scale the formula down a bit and sub the Parmesan for Pecorino and you're set.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg154647.html#msg154647
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: PizzaEater101 on October 08, 2011, 04:26:33 PM
PE101,

Thanks for the tip on Anthony's Fish Grotto. I have heard of the place before but never went when I was in San Diego previously. Worth checking out.

Regarding the TJ mozzarella, I believe TJ's changed companies. The previous one was made by the Cascade Dairy Products in Hayward, CA. Costco still carries it in 6lbs blogs.

http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?prodid=11543104&whse=BD_827&topnav=bdoff&cat=28587&hierPath=11276*28587*&lang=en-US



Mike,

I went to Costco Business Center and bought some Mozz.  They had the North Beach brand that you referenced to but it's part-skim milk and I wanted Whole Milk Mozz so I got their other brand called Bella Rosano instead.  


Curious do you have any thoughts on the BElla Rosano brand?  Here is the Costco link -



http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?Prodid=11672358&search=mozzarella&Mo=7&cm_re=1_en-_-Top_Left_Nav-_-Top_search&lang=en-US&Nr=P_CatalogName:BD_827&Sp=S&N=5000049&whse=BD_827&Dx=mode+matchallpartial&Ntk=Text_Search&Dr=P_CatalogName:BD_827&Ne=4000000&D=mozzarella&Ntt=mozzarella&No=1&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&Nty=1&topnav=bdoff&s=1

Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: PizzaEater101 on October 08, 2011, 04:37:38 PM
All this talk of Pendleton Power Flour yet most of us here can not get it.  Norma mentioned that she used Conagra Harvest flour before but does anyone have any thoughts on Conagra full power flour?  This one I saw at Costco Business.  It's High Gluten content flour -

http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?prodid=10276922&whse=BD_827&topnav=bd&cat=11919&hierPath=11121*11919*&lang=en-US

They also had one called Kyrol high gluten flour but not sure the difference and I don't see it at their web site so I can't link it here but I saw it there.

What are your thoughts on these Conagra flours?

Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on October 08, 2011, 04:38:08 PM
Mike,

I went to Costco Business Center and bought some Mozz.  They had the North Beach brand that you referenced to but it's part-skim milk and I wanted Whole Milk Mozz so I got their other brand called Bella Rosano instead.  


Curious do you have any thoughts on the BElla Rosano brand?  Here is the Costco link -



http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?Prodid=11672358&search=mozzarella&Mo=7&cm_re=1_en-_-Top_Left_Nav-_-Top_search&lang=en-US&Nr=P_CatalogName:BD_827&Sp=S&N=5000049&whse=BD_827&Dx=mode+matchallpartial&Ntk=Text_Search&Dr=P_CatalogName:BD_827&Ne=4000000&D=mozzarella&Ntt=mozzarella&No=1&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&Nty=1&topnav=bdoff&s=1



It's made by the same company that makes the North Beach kind, Cascade Diary in Hayward, CA. Should be outstanding. I have always used a combo of their two mozzas, whole milk and part skim.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on October 08, 2011, 04:39:32 PM
All this talk of Pendleton Power Flour yet most of us here can not get it.  Norma mentioned that she used Conagra Harvest flour before but does anyone have any thoughts on Conagra full power flour?  This one I saw at Costco Business.  It's High Gluten content flour -

http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?prodid=10276922&whse=BD_827&topnav=bd&cat=11919&hierPath=11121*11919*&lang=en-US

They also had one called Kyrol high gluten flour but not sure the difference and I don't see it at their web site so I can't link it here but I saw it there.

What are your thoughts on these Conagra flours?



PE101,

I have used the Harvest Bread flour with great results. I didn't know that they have also a HG flour. Give it a shot. For 20 bucks you can't go wrong.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: PizzaEater101 on October 08, 2011, 04:44:21 PM
Mike,

I sometimes use a combination of whole and part-skim but lately I've just been using whole milk because I read that a lot of NY pizza joints use whole milk but the combination that you use turns out great pizza.  I should go back to using a combination too.  Think I'll go back and buy the part-skim one that you recommend.

Mike you are right the Conagra High Gluten Full Power is a dynamite deal.  It's worth a shot.

Can you give me any tips on how to store such large amounts of flour?  I buy normally Better for Bread by Gold Medal because it's a small amount that I can store easily but I'm dying to try the Conagra and price per pound turns out great.   How do you suggest I store such a large amount of flour to keep it from doing stale and from having bugs attack it.  Thanks much.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on October 08, 2011, 05:56:54 PM
Mike,

I sometimes use a combination of whole and part-skim but lately I've just been using whole milk because I read that a lot of NY pizza joints use whole milk but the combination that you use turns out great pizza.  I should go back to using a combination too.  Think I'll go back and buy the part-skim one that you recommend.

Mike you are right the Conagra High Gluten Full Power is a dynamite deal.  It's worth a shot.

Can you give me any tips on how to store such large amounts of flour?  I buy normally Better for Bread by Gold Medal because it's a small amount that I can store easily but I'm dying to try the Conagra and price per pound turns out great.   How do you suggest I store such a large amount of flour to keep it from doing stale and from having bugs attack it.  Thanks much.

PE101,

I usually store my flour in a little storage room which is on the cooler side. Never had any problems with bugs and such but since I don't know how you plan to store it I'd check in on the flour periodically to avoid unpleasant surprises.

Shouldn't be a problem, though.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on October 08, 2011, 07:11:29 PM
All this talk of Pendleton Power Flour yet most of us here can not get it.  Norma mentioned that she used Conagra Harvest flour before but does anyone have any thoughts on Conagra full power flour?  This one I saw at Costco Business.  It's High Gluten content flour -

http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?prodid=10276922&whse=BD_827&topnav=bd&cat=11919&hierPath=11121*11919*&lang=en-US

They also had one called Kyrol high gluten flour but not sure the difference and I don't see it at their web site so I can't link it here but I saw it there.

What are your thoughts on these Conagra flours?



James,

I agree with Mike that Conagra full power flour would be fine to try for a Luigi's clone.  Kyrol flour is also a good high-gluten flour. 

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: PizzaEater101 on October 08, 2011, 08:07:23 PM
James,

I agree with Mike that Conagra full power flour would be fine to try for a Luigi's clone.  Kyrol flour is also a good high-gluten flour. 

Norma

Norma, thanks for the input on this subject.  I think based on what you say and what Mike says I'm gonna get some Conagra.  Not sure the Kyrol or the full power flour.  Probably the Power Flour since it's a good one for the Luigi clone.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on October 08, 2011, 09:39:42 PM
Probably the Power Flour since it's a good one for the Luigi clone.

PE101,

I don't know if the Conagra will perform the same way as the Pendleton Power flour. I have never used it but I still think it can't hurt to try. If it isn't that suitable I think you can use it for other applications (bread, other type of pizza). Looking at their website I think it's more likely their Producer flour:

Quote
High-gluten flour milled from cleaned, sound, hard red spring wheat.
Hearth breads, hard and Kaiser rolls, bagels, European crusty breads,
rye breads, thin-crust pizza, breadsticks, pita and flat breads, English
muffins, specialty pan breads, and croissants.

http://www.conagramills.com/our_products/bakery_flours.jsp

Or maybe something closely related. I also think they may rename and repackage their flour for Costco.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on October 17, 2011, 04:54:05 PM
Today, at Reply 21 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,15856.msg157064.html#msg157064, I described how I used a mathematical formula that was given to me by member November to calculate how much hydration a given flour can withstand. In that case, it was the General Mills Superlative flour. I wondered whether I could do a similar calculation for the Pendleton Power flour. I know that the Pendleton Power flour has a protein content of 13.5% and that its rated absorption value is based on a moisture content of 14%, but the number I did not have is the dietary fiber percent for that flour. However, after looking at several flours with protein contents of from about 12.5% to 14.2%, the standard dietary fiber percent I found was 2.9%. I even found one GM flour with a protein content of 13.6%, the Remarkable flour, and its dietary fiber number is 2.9%. So, I decided to use that number along with the other numbers referenced above. Doing so, I ended up with a hydration value for the Power flour of 64.98%. The number that Pendleton quotes in its technical bulletin for the rated absorption value for the Power flour is 65%. As I previously noted at Reply 125 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg151643.html#msg151643, the hydration value that I was told was typical was 64.5-65.5%. In any event, the number I calculated for the Power flour seems to be consistent with what I was told by Pendleton and as reflected in their specs for the Power flour.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on October 17, 2011, 05:33:10 PM
I received a call from Alex today. and he said he sent me a sample of the Mondako flour on Friday, and I should soon be getting it.  I said I had requested a sample of the Power flour.  Alex now said he is going to be sending me a sample of the Power flour also.

I asked Alex what protein the Mondako flour was and he said 12 Ĺ %.  He said the absorption rate is 55 %.  Alex said that the Mondako flour is great for making NY style pizza and most pizza operators do use the Mondako flour for NY style pizzas.  He said the Mondako flour is a bread flour. 

I will wait and see if I get both samples.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on October 17, 2011, 09:16:15 PM
Norma,

The numbers you quoted for the protein content and the absorption value for the Mondako flour do not square with what is recited for the Mondako flour at page 8 of the Pendleton booklet at http://www.pfmills.com/filebin/pdf/technical_informational_booklet_v1-opt.pdf. Is it possible that they are sending you the pizza mix that is sold under the Mondako name? Or possibly something else?

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on October 17, 2011, 10:41:47 PM
Norma,

The numbers you quoted for the protein content and the absorption value for the Mondako flour do not square with what is recited for the Mondako flour at page 8 of the Pendleton booklet at http://www.pfmills.com/filebin/pdf/technical_informational_booklet_v1-opt.pdf. Is it possible that they are sending you the pizza mix that is sold under the Mondako name? Or possibly something else?

Peter

Peter,

I didnít have that pdf. document up on my computer today when I spoke with Alex.  I did have a tablet handy, and that is what Alex told me about the Mondako flour.  I wasnít even concerned about the Mondako flour, because I have been talking to Alex about the Power flour.  When Alex said he sent me a sample of Mondako on Friday and to expect it soon, I wondered why he would be sending me a sample of the Mondako flour.  That is why I told Alex I had wanted to try the Power flour.  I will wait and see if Alex even sends me any flour, then I will call him again.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: PizzaEater101 on October 20, 2011, 01:00:30 AM
PE101,

Got the new scale in.

It's a AWS-100 and comes with a 10 year warranty. Measures in grams, ounces, carats and grains, up to a 1/100th of a gram.

Just to keep you posted...

Mike, I just ordered this scale.  Should be in by end of next week maybe.  Can't wait to get it.  No more winging it!  Thanks Mike for the tip on this scale.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on October 26, 2011, 01:53:42 PM
I was surprised a little while ago when the FexEx man came to my door to give me a delivery.  Alex did send me a bag of Mondako bleached and enriched flour. and also a bag of Power flour enriched and unbleached in the same box.  Alex also sent me 3 dough scrapers and a Pendleton Pen. 

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on October 26, 2011, 01:54:22 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: scott123 on October 26, 2011, 03:35:10 PM
That's great, Norma, that you were finally able to get your hands on some Pendleton flour. From the Power Flour results in this thread and Gene's experimentation with the Mondako, I think you'll be pleased.

Those dough scrapers are a great acquisition. I've been looking for those locally to no avail and, online, they're about 5 bucks (including shipping) and I just can't pay $5 for something that should cost about 50 cents.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: chickenparm on October 26, 2011, 03:59:02 PM
Scott,I found some plastic dough scrapers in a Dollar store of some kind.It works very well.If that doesn't do it,get some auto body filler-scrapers from the Body shop supply store,or an good Parts store.They sell large ones as well.Very durable stuff.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: scott123 on October 26, 2011, 04:08:30 PM
Bill, do the dollar store scrapers have the same curved edge?
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: chickenparm on October 26, 2011, 04:52:41 PM
Scott,

I am not 100% sure what you are referring to.But to explain this cheap one I have somewhat,the scraper has a back side and a front.The back side is completely flat.The front has a knife-like edge going all the way around the scraper body to help it cut into flour or scrape stuff up.Is this what you mean by curved edge?

If so then yes.

Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: chickenparm on October 26, 2011, 04:54:17 PM
 I looked closer at the photos above and the plastic scraper I have is very similar,just maybe not as thick as the ones norma received.The edges around the scraper are the same as the one I have.I could be wrong about the thickness,they could be the same and Its just hard to say from the photos.
 :)

Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on October 26, 2011, 05:42:16 PM
That's great, Norma, that you were finally able to get your hands on some Pendleton flour. From the Power Flour results in this thread and Gene's experimentation with the Mondako, I think you'll be pleased.

Those dough scrapers are a great acquisition. I've been looking for those locally to no avail and, online, they're about 5 bucks (including shipping) and I just can't pay $5 for something that should cost about 50 cents.

Scott,

I was happy to receive the flours from Pendleton today.  I will use some of the Power Flour for some Luigiís pies and might try the Power flour in my preferment Lehmann dough to see if it makes any difference.  Do you have any suggestions for the Mondako flour?  I have been following Geneís experiments with Mondako flour.

If you have been looking for one of these kind of dough scrapers, and want one of the dough scrapers, just PM me your address, I will send you one.  I only need one for home and one for market.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: PizzaEater101 on October 26, 2011, 05:54:57 PM
Norma, looking forward to hearing about your results.

Just got my gram scale but won't get to use it now because all in the name of pizza making I almost broke my pinky on my left hand.  I have mallet finger now.  It is a breakaway of the tendon from the bone.  I can use my other fingers but it is a severe hindrance.  In a finger splint.  Maybe 6 weeks to heal.  Hard to type. Can't use pinky, slow to type.  I was picking up a 50 lb pound bag of flour, it slipped and bam my finger was pushed violently down by it and my finger is stuck down and can't move until it is healed.  Can't wait to try my scale when I am better.  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mallet_finger
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on October 26, 2011, 06:10:11 PM
Norma, looking forward to hearing about your results.

Just got my gram scale but won't get to use it now because all in the name of pizza making I almost broke my pinky on my left hand.  I have mallet finger now.  It is a breakaway of the tendon from the bone.  I can use my other fingers but it is a severe hindrance.  In a finger splint.  Maybe 6 weeks to heal.  Hard to type. Can't use pinky, slow to type.  I was picking up a 50 lb pound bag of flour, it slipped and bam my finger was pushed violently down by it and my finger is stuck down and can't move until it is healed.  Can't wait to try my scale when I am better.  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mallet_finger

James,

Thanks for saying you are looking forward to my results.  I am not sure what formula Peter set-forth I will try first with the Power flour.

Sorry to hear in the name of pizza making you now have mallet finger.  :( I never even hear of that before.  Pizza making can be dangerous in many ways.  Lifting 50 lb. bags of flour isnít easy.  They are so flimsy and different times I almost dropped a 50 lb. bag of flour.  Last week and this week I burnt my arm and now hand on my deck oven.  Those darn ovens sure are hot.  Things happen quickly, even if you think you are careful.  Hope your pinky recovers quickly and you can use your new scales.  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: chickenparm on October 26, 2011, 07:17:16 PM
James,
Don't worry about writing me back a reply to my last email.It must be very hard to type.Im sorry you hurt your finger and hope you recover well soon!

Take care!!!



Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: chickenparm on October 26, 2011, 07:19:35 PM
Norma,
Do be careful too! Hope your burns are ok now!

Look forward to your progress with your new flours!
 :)
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on October 26, 2011, 08:14:36 PM
Norma,
Do be careful too! Hope your burns are ok now!

Look forward to your progress with your new flours!
 :)


Bill,

I do dumb stuff all the time, but I am a "tough old bird"!   :-D  My burns only hurt for a few minutes.  They are fine now.

Thanks for saying you look forward to my progress with the new flours.  I will try a Luigi's pizza either this coming week or the following week, with the Power flour.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: scott123 on October 26, 2011, 11:10:35 PM
Do you have any suggestions for the Mondako flour?

Norma, you're actually the only member, at this present time, to have the Mondako and the Power Flour.  I don't think the results are going to be record breaking, but I'd like to see someone work with a 50/50 Mondako/Power blend. For the Mondako/Power blend, I'd shoot for 61% hydration for a crispier crust and 63% for a softer one, and, for the Mondako on it's own, 59% for crispy and 61% for softer.

And, thanks for the offer of the dough scraper, but I'm going to take Bill's advice and start looking at dollar stores. Thanks, though.

James, my sympathies regarding the finger.  I've jammed fingers playing basketball, but that's no where near what you're going through. Get well soon.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on October 26, 2011, 11:38:41 PM
Norma, you're actually the only member, at this present time, to have the Mondako and the Power Flour.  I don't think the results are going to be record breaking, but I'd like to see someone work with a 50/50 Mondako/Power blend. For the Mondako/Power blend, I'd shoot for 61% hydration for a crispier crust and 63% for a softer one, and, for the Mondako on it's own, 59% for crispy and 61% for softer.

And, thanks for the offer of the dough scraper, but I'm going to take Bill's advice and start looking at dollar stores. Thanks, though.


Scott,

I will see if I can fit a Mondako and Power flour blend of 50/50 experiment for this coming week. 

My dough scraper I have at home was on .99 at the Webstaurant Store near me.  It looks about the same as the dough scrapers I was sent.  I don't know if you have a Webstaurant store near you or not. http://www.webstaurantstore.com/

Norma

Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: chickenparm on October 27, 2011, 12:00:13 AM
Scott and others,

I wanted to let you know I ordered some pizza making supplies from a company,and I also ordered a metal blade dough scraper for under 2 bucks from them.

Its is so sturdy and strong,cuts dough with ease and scrapes flour away better than the plastic dough blades I found in the dollar stores.

When I ordered this blade,I also ordered some pizza screens,some large metal pizza serving pans with it.When I got the box,the dough blade had become loose,and nicked/scratched the heck out of one of my round serving pans during shipment.I took pictures,emailed the company,and they sent me another one right away,no charge.

They were so nice to send me another 16 inch metal pizza serving pan at no cost to me,nor did they want the old one back.Here is the link to the metal dough scraper I bought from them.

http://www.northernpizzaequipment.com/blstsc.html
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Jet_deck on October 27, 2011, 12:22:16 AM
Thanks for that link..  They seem to have a great selection of pizza stuff.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on October 27, 2011, 12:28:32 AM
Mike, I just ordered this scale.  Should be in by end of next week maybe.  Can't wait to get it.  No more winging it!  Thanks Mike for the tip on this scale.

PE101,

You'll love it. It measures down to 0.1 grams and I'm glad I got it.

Sorry about your finger, man, and wish you a speedy recovery! I had that happen to me and it's no fun.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on October 27, 2011, 12:32:19 AM
Norma, you're actually the only member, at this present time, to have the Mondako and the Power Flour.  I don't think the results are going to be record breaking, but I'd like to see someone work with a 50/50 Mondako/Power blend. For the Mondako/Power blend, I'd shoot for 61% hydration for a crispier crust and 63% for a softer one, and, for the Mondako on it's own, 59% for crispy and 61% for softer.

And, thanks for the offer of the dough scraper, but I'm going to take Bill's advice and start looking at dollar stores. Thanks, though.

James, my sympathies regarding the finger.  I've jammed fingers playing basketball, but that's no where near what you're going through. Get well soon.

Scotty,

For what it's worth...my pizza guy thinks that the Mondako is just an average flour compared to the Power flour. He's tried both and in his opinion the PPF trumps most of the professional pizza flours out there.

With that said, I never used the Mondako so I can't really post any opinion on it except relaying to the board what my guy said. I hope Norma will prove us all wrong and come out with guns blazing for both flours.  ;D
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on October 27, 2011, 12:34:41 AM
I was surprised a little while ago when the FexEx man came to my door to give me a delivery.  Alex did send me a bag of Mondako bleached and enriched flour. and also a bag of Power flour enriched and unbleached in the same box.  Alex also sent me 3 dough scrapers and a Pendleton Pen. 

Norma

Norma,

Those are excellent news. You going to like the PPF...the Mondako, I don't know about. But hopefully both flours will be a winner.

When I ordered some flours from Guisto's, the mill in SF, I got exactly the same things...a dough scraper and a pen.  :)
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: scott123 on October 27, 2011, 01:15:26 AM
Mike, the Power flour is one of the best unbromated flours I've ever seen, but I've always felt that as you increase the protein, you also increase the potential for tough crusts when cooled.  At least, you do with 14% flours. 13.5% still seems a bit high to me, so I'd like to see what can be achieved with a blend.

Have you witnessed any toughness with the Power flour?
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on October 27, 2011, 01:26:40 AM

Have you witnessed any toughness with the Power flour?

Not yet. At least not with a hot crust. I can't comment on a cold crust, or pizza, since I'm not really a huge fan of those. It does provide a nice chew and crunch, though, but not the delicate and balanced crust All Trumps provided when I tried it. I also try not to over-mix/knead a high-protein flour such as the PPF. Five, maybe seven minutes, at the most depending on the hydration.

Bromated flour is regulated here in Cali and if a pizzeria chooses to use it, they'd have to make it public by posting a visible note saying their flour is, in fact, bromated. At least that's the last thing I have heard on that law.

Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on October 27, 2011, 07:46:10 AM
Scott and others,

I wanted to let you know I ordered some pizza making supplies from a company,and I also ordered a metal blade dough scraper for under 2 bucks from them.

Its is so sturdy and strong,cuts dough with ease and scrapes flour away better than the plastic dough blades I found in the dollar stores.

When I ordered this blade,I also ordered some pizza screens,some large metal pizza serving pans with it.When I got the box,the dough blade had become loose,and nicked/scratched the heck out of one of my round serving pans during shipment.I took pictures,emailed the company,and they sent me another one right away,no charge.

They were so nice to send me another 16 inch metal pizza serving pan at no cost to me,nor did they want the old one back.Here is the link to the metal dough scraper I bought from them.

http://www.northernpizzaequipment.com/blstsc.html


Bill,

Thanks for that link too!  :) In addition to their good prices on pizza equipment, they also sell blue steel pans.

Norma  

Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on October 27, 2011, 08:09:14 AM
Norma,

Those are excellent news. You going to like the PPF...the Mondako, I don't know about. But hopefully both flours will be a winner.

When I ordered some flours from Guisto's, the mill in SF, I got exactly the same things...a dough scraper and a pen.  :)

Mike,

Thanks for saying it was good news that I received the Power Flour.  I donít know about the Mondako flour either, but Alex told me that more pizza operators use the Mondako flour, than the Power Flour.  I wouldnít know why the Mondako flour would be better. 

Good to hear you also got a dough scraper and pen when you purchased the Power flour.  :)

I wanted to ask you or someone else a question.  When you used the formulas Peter set-forth at Reply 177 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg151870.html#msg151870 how did you know what way to scale them down since the formulas were for different size bags of Power flour?  I donít think I really understand how to scale them down.  Wouldnít there really be different amounts of ingredients in the formula, for different size bags. I think I am really confused on that.  ???  :-D

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on October 27, 2011, 12:29:44 PM
Mike,

Thanks for saying it was good news that I received the Power Flour.  I donít know about the Mondako flour either, but Alex told me that more pizza operators use the Mondako flour, than the Power Flour.  I wouldnít know why the Mondako flour would be better. 

Good to hear you also got a dough scraper and pen when you purchased the Power flour.  :)

I wanted to ask you or someone else a question.  When you used the formulas Peter set-forth at Reply 177 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg151870.html#msg151870 how did you know what way to scale them down since the formulas were for different size bags of Power flour?  I donít think I really understand how to scale them down.  Wouldnít there really be different amounts of ingredients in the formula, for different size bags. I think I am really confused on that.  ???  :-D

Norma

Norma,

To scale them down I used the Dough calculator and the Thickness factor of 0.075 for a NY-style pizza and then the percentages Peter's given us. But you also might have to deal with a different approach regarding the fermentation times since all Luigi clones have different amounts of yeast, salt, etc. But adjusting them shouldn't be a problem for you.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on October 27, 2011, 02:55:09 PM
Norma,

To scale them down I used the Dough calculator and the Thickness factor of 0.075 for a NY-style pizza and then the percentages Peter's given us. But you also might have to deal with a different approach regarding the fermentation times since all Luigi clones have different amounts of yeast, salt, etc. But adjusting them shouldn't be a problem for you.

Mike,

Thanks again for reminding me all I had to do was use the percentages Peter gave us.  I don't know what I was thinking.  I guess I must have just thought about using ADY or IDY.  I will probably go with the first formula I tried, to see if there is any difference in the taste of the crust, with using the Power Flour.  That Luigi's attempt wasn't the best in the taste of the crust.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on October 30, 2011, 11:54:58 AM
I mixed a Luigiís clone attempt this morning with the Power Flour.  The Power Flour didnít seem to have any problems with a higher hydration.  The only thing I changed in the formula, was I lowered the amount of ADY for a 2 days cold ferment.  This is the formula I used and also how the dough balled looked.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on October 30, 2011, 11:55:49 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on October 31, 2011, 09:53:39 AM
This is how my Luigi's dough ball looked this morning.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: PizzaEater101 on October 31, 2011, 10:09:41 AM
Thanks everyone for the well wishes.  Even tho it's hard to type now I will post now and then.  See, my right hand is fine, I can type fast with it but my left hand with the pinky essentially broken it hinders that hand which throws off the rhythm of my right hand when I type which throws off the left even more so I make many typos that I have to correct. So far I made like 5 typos that I correct.  

Norma, I never heard of mallet finger also until I got it.  It's new to me.  The dough you made looks great.  Can't wait to see the results as a baked pie.

Bill, thanks for the private message on your quest for Grande cheese.  I'm gonna reply in a couple of days.  

Scott, how long did it take you to recover from your jammed finger?  What actions did you take to recover and is your finger working as before or do you have some residual issues from the jam?

Mike same question for you. Your mallet finger, how long did it take to recover and what actions did you take and is yours a full recovery?

Sadly not only do I enjoy making pizza but I play guitar.  Guitar is out of the question until I'm well but pizza I may attempt making pizza later this week maybe.  For now I'm hungry for pizza and will go out and buy some.

I'll post now and then even tho my finger is hindering me but won't post much.  Will lurke more than anything. 


Thanks much everyone!

Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: scott123 on November 01, 2011, 01:14:51 AM
Scott, how long did it take you to recover from your jammed finger?  What actions did you take to recover and is your finger working as before or do you have some residual issues from the jam?

I just thought about the last time I played basketball and am embarrassed to say that it was at least 15 years ago.  I'm not really recalling all the details- just that the worst jam was excruciatingly painful and that it hurt for a day or two.  No residual issues. I've also had other gentle finger jams that hurt for a few seconds and then went away.

Btw, have you looked into voice recognition software?  I've played around with Dragon Naturally Speaking and thought it did a pretty good job after just a little training.  Windows Vista and 7 are also supposed to have voice recognition capabilities.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on November 01, 2011, 10:35:22 PM
The attempt for a Luigiís pizza went okay today, but there could have been a little more color on the bottom crust.  The Luigiís pie did have a good taste in the crust.  The Luigiís attempt did seem like a NY style pie to Steve, my taste testers, and me. This is a video of Steve cutting the Luigiís attempt.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxmDYGRS7ys

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on November 01, 2011, 10:36:16 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on November 01, 2011, 10:37:17 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on November 01, 2011, 10:38:12 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on November 01, 2011, 10:39:21 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on November 01, 2011, 11:06:49 PM
Norma,

Can you describe the dough management you used for the Luigi's clone pizza? And did you rehydrate the ADY in a portion of the total formula water? And what was the bake temperature and time?

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on November 01, 2011, 11:25:15 PM
Norma,

Can you describe the dough management you used for the Luigi's clone pizza? And did you rehydrate the ADY in a portion of the total formula water? And what was the bake temperature and time?

Peter

Peter,

The dough management I used for this Luigiís attempt was the dough was mixed on Sunday for Tuesday. (I know Luigiís dough is supposed to be only fermented for one day, but from my other attempt, I didnít think there was any flavor in the crust, so that is why I did a two day cold ferment.)  My final dough temperature was 76.2 degrees F.  The dough was balled and went right into the refrigerator after the dough was balled.  The dough was left to warm up at about 72 degrees F for 1 Ĺ hrs.  The dough ball did have a bubble on the top of the dough ball even before I left it warm-up, but the bubble got bigger while it was warming up.  I did rehydrate the ADY in a portion of the total formula water.  The bake temperature was about 525 degrees F for about 5 minutes.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Fast996 on November 02, 2011, 12:26:37 AM
Mike, the Power flour is one of the best unbromated flours I've ever seen, but I've always felt that as you increase the protein, you also increase the potential for tough crusts when cooled.  At least, you do with 14% flours. 13.5% still seems a bit high to me, so I'd like to see what can be achieved with a blend.

Have you witnessed any toughness with the Power flour?

I use both Pendleton flours Power & Big Spring they are the best flours I have baked with.The rise and taste is excellent.You can see my pizza in the post here.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,16005.msg157291.html#msg157291

I will say I prefer the Power softer as you say over the Big Spring .

Gary
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on November 02, 2011, 12:35:31 AM
Peter,

The dough management I used for this Luigiís attempt was the dough was mixed on Sunday for Tuesday. (I know Luigiís dough is supposed to be only fermented for one day, but from my other attempt, I didnít think there was any flavor in the crust, so that is why I did a two day cold ferment.)  My final dough temperature was 76.2 degrees F.  The dough was balled and went right into the refrigerator after the dough was balled.  The dough was left to warm up at about 72 degrees F for 1 Ĺ hrs.  The dough ball did have a bubble on the top of the dough ball even before I left it warm-up, but the bubble got bigger while it was warming up.  I did rehydrate the ADY in a portion of the total formula water.  The bake temperature was about 525 degrees F for about 5 minutes.

Norma

Norma,

Wow! That looks like one of the most authentic-looking NY-style slices I have seen on here.

How would you compare the PPF to other flours you have used and how was the texture of the crust?
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on November 02, 2011, 12:45:31 AM
Quote
Mike same question for you. Your mallet finger, how long did it take to recover and what actions did you take and is yours a full recovery?

PE101,

What happened to me was that I broke the knuckle on my right pinkie (it got pushed in and the docs had to pull out the finger in order to re-align the bones) and put it in what I call a "fist wrap" for the lack of a better term. Had it for about 7 weeks, with the lone digit being the thumb sticking out. I only had six fingers to work with back then.

Afterwards, I had to perform some exercises on a daily basis to get the tendons and ligs going again.

So, consider yourself lucky that you only have it in a mallet.  :)

And yes, it was a full recovery. No problems.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on November 02, 2011, 08:30:13 AM
Norma,

Wow! That looks like one of the most authentic-looking NY-style slices I have seen on here.

How would you compare the PPF to other flours you have used and how was the texture of the crust?

Mike,

Thanks for the kind comment about the Luigiís attempt.  :)  So far, I havenít really noticed a big difference in the Power flour, but have only done one experiment.  The only thing I noticed was the dough accepted the higher hydration better.  The texture of the crust was a little crunchy on the rim, and bottom crust.  The texture of the crumb seemed good.  My attempt could have been darker in the rim and bottom crust though.

Do you have different reasons for liking the Power flour more, in comparison to other flours you have tried?

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on November 02, 2011, 11:00:26 AM
Norma,

I went back to the original DDD video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PRA_BJYvTc to see how your latest Luigi clone pizza compared with those shown in the video. I think that your Luigi clone looks like those in the video, at least in terms of look and feel (pizza size, crust thickness, the crunch when cutting, etc.), but with less crust color at the rim and bottom of the pizza. According to the video, Luigi uses an oven temperature of around 525-550 degrees F. In your case, should you decide to make another Luigi clone, you might try using a lower bake temperature and a longer bake time simply as a test to see if you get more crust color while retaining the usual characteristics of a NY style pizza. If that doesn't work, then it is possible that you need a longer fermentation time to release more sugars from the flour to contribute to more color. You might recall that Jet_deck (Gene) observed that Luigi might have been placing the boxes of dough balls near the oven to accelerate the fermentation process (and that the guys at Bronx appeared to be doing the same). Apart from the possibility of adding more sugar if the above measures do not work, I did not see anything obvious in what you did to explain why you did not get more crust color. It looked to me that you did everything right.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: PizzaEater101 on November 02, 2011, 11:19:42 AM
PE101,

What happened to me was that I broke the knuckle on my right pinkie (it got pushed in and the docs had to pull out the finger in order to re-align the bones) and put it in what I call a "fist wrap" for the lack of a better term. Had it for about 7 weeks, with the lone digit being the thumb sticking out. I only had six fingers to work with back then.

Afterwards, I had to perform some exercises on a daily basis to get the tendons and ligs going again.

So, consider yourself lucky that you only have it in a mallet.  :)

And yes, it was a full recovery. No problems.

Mike, thanks for the info on your injury.  You are right, I got off easy compared to you.  I am just glad I have mallet finger and nothing broken like you did.  I'll be fine, I just have to deal with it for 6 weeks.


Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: PizzaEater101 on November 02, 2011, 11:22:08 AM
I just thought about the last time I played basketball and am embarrassed to say that it was at least 15 years ago.  I'm not really recalling all the details- just that the worst jam was excruciatingly painful and that it hurt for a day or two.  No residual issues. I've also had other gentle finger jams that hurt for a few seconds and then went away.

Btw, have you looked into voice recognition software?  I've played around with Dragon Naturally Speaking and thought it did a pretty good job after just a little training.  Windows Vista and 7 are also supposed to have voice recognition capabilities.

scott, thanks for the suggestion of Dragon or other voice software.  I had not thought of that but should have because when I worked in desktop support I had installed it for people who had broken their arm but needed to type.   I should have thought of it but did not.  I will make do with typing now, I have gotten better but if my finger gets worse and have to keep it in the splint past the six weeks I am supposed to then I might try out some voice software. 
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: PizzaEater101 on November 02, 2011, 11:25:50 AM
Norma, your results look great.  I am not from NYC nor have I been there but from pictures of real NY pizza and from the NY style pizza I have eaten, yours looks like a spot on clone.   I think Luigi would be proud of you!  :pizza:

If I did not know any better I would say you have taken the DNA from a real NY pizza and made a clone of the NY pizza and presented it to us.  I have heard of clones of sheep but pizzas? 

In all seriousness you did a fine job.  Once my finger is all healed up I will try to do a Luigi clone with all the great info you and everyone has presented us in this discussion on the subject. 
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on November 02, 2011, 11:47:52 AM
Norma,

I went back to the original DDD video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PRA_BJYvTc to see how your latest Luigi clone pizza compared with those shown in the video. I think that your Luigi clone looks like those in the video, at least in terms of look and feel (pizza size, crust thickness, the crunch when cutting, etc.), but with less crust color at the rim and bottom of the pizza. According to the video, Luigi uses an oven temperature of around 525-550 degrees F. In your case, should you decide to make another Luigi clone, you might try using a lower bake temperature and a longer bake time simply as a test to see if you get more crust color while retaining the usual characteristics of a NY style pizza. If that doesn't work, then it is possible that you need a longer fermentation time to release more sugars from the flour to contribute to more color. You might recall that Jet_deck (Gene) observed that Luigi might have been placing the boxes of dough balls near the oven to accelerate the fermentation process (and that the guys at Bronx appeared to be doing the same). Apart from the possibility of adding more sugar if the above measures do not work, I did not see anything obvious in what you did to explain why you did not get more crust color. It looked to me that you did everything right.

Peter

Peter,

I do plan on trying another Luigiís clone attempt next week, since I have the Power Flour now.  Thanks for telling me what I should try next to get better rim and bottom pizza color.  Do you think I should try the same formula again, or try one of the other formulas you posted at Reply 177 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg151870.html#msg151870  If you do want me to try one of the other formulas you posted, which would be your choice to try and why?  I do remember Gene observing the possibility of Luigiís and Bronx pizza putting the dough closer to the ovens for better fermentation.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on November 02, 2011, 11:51:44 AM
Norma,

Now that you have had a chance to use the Power flour and have tasted the finished crust using that flour, is there a particular duration of cold fermentation that you would like to use for the next Luigi clone?

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on November 02, 2011, 11:54:04 AM
Norma, your results look great.  I am not from NYC nor have I been there but from pictures of real NY pizza and from the NY style pizza I have eaten, yours looks like a spot on clone.   I think Luigi would be proud of you!  :pizza:

If I did not know any better I would say you have taken the DNA from a real NY pizza and made a clone of the NY pizza and presented it to us.  I have heard of clones of sheep but pizzas? 

In all seriousness you did a fine job.  Once my finger is all healed up I will try to do a Luigi clone with all the great info you and everyone has presented us in this discussion on the subject. 

James,

Thanks for thinking the results were good in my Luigiís attempt.  I have been to NY different times, and the Luigiís attempt yesterday was like some of the good slice pies I ate there, except for the color of the rim and bottom crust.

Peter is the one that figured out the Luigiís formulas to try.  He should get the DNA award!  :-D  :chef:

Good to hear when your finger is healed you will try a Luigiís clone attempt!  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on November 02, 2011, 11:57:19 AM
Norma,

Now that you have had a chance to use the Power flour and have tasted the finished crust using that flour, is there a particular duration of cold fermentation that you would like to use for the next Luigi clone?

Peter

Peter,

It doesnít matter to me what I try next.  I will let that up to you in the formula I try, and also what kind of fermentation you want me to try. 

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: chickenparm on November 02, 2011, 12:33:16 PM
Norma,
Excellent job! I loved the look/size of the slices too! Made me super hungry before lunch here!
 ;D
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on November 02, 2011, 03:51:55 PM
Norma,
Excellent job! I loved the look/size of the slices too! Made me super hungry before lunch here!
 ;D

Bill,

Thanks!  :)  I like to make 18" pizzas, but at one time was afraid to try to make a 18" pizza. 

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on November 02, 2011, 03:58:56 PM
It doesnít matter to me what I try next.  I will let that up to you in the formula I try, and also what kind of fermentation you want me to try. 

Norma,

Since Jet_deck (Gene) informed us at Reply 91 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg151218/topicseen.html#msg151218 that Luigi's cold ferments its dough for 24 hours, I'd like to see you attempt a 24-hour cold fermented Luigi's clone dough. For this purpose, I would use the Luigi #1 clone dough formulation as set forth at Reply 177 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg151870.html#msg151870 but modified to reduce the amount of yeast to a value that I believe should work for a one-day cold fermented dough in your part of Pennsylvania this time of year. Using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html, this is what I get:

Luigi One-Day Cold Fermentation Clone Dough Formulation (Modified #1 Luigi)
Pendleton Power High-Gluten Flour, Unbleached (100%):
Water (Crystal Geyser Spring Water) (65%):
ADY (0.55%):
Salt (1.984%):
Sugar (0.22928%):
Total (167.76328%):
308.74 g  |  10.89 oz | 0.68 lbs
200.68 g  |  7.08 oz | 0.44 lbs
1.7 g | 0.06 oz | 0 lbs | 0.45 tsp | 0.15 tbsp
6.13 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.1 tsp | 0.37 tbsp
0.71 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.18 tsp | 0.06 tbsp
517.95 g | 18.27 oz | 1.14 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: Dough is for a single 18" pizza; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

In terms of the dough preparation, I would like you to try to achieve a finished dough temperature of around 80 degrees F. Also, before refrigerating, I suggest that you let the dough rest for about 20-30 minutes. That period would be about what it might take workers at Luigi's to take a large dough batch and divide and scale it into a large number of dough balls before putting them into the cooler. The rest period should also enable the dough ball to get some fermentation going before refrigerating. The objective is to get sufficient fermentation and to have an amount of sugar (residual sugar) left over beyond what the yeast needs as food to be available at the time of baking for final crust coloration. You will have to monitor the temper time at market to be sure that the dough isn't either underproofed or overproofed.

In the above formulation, the salt is regular table salt, which is what I assumed when I came up with the original Luigi clone dough formulations. If you prefer to use Kosher salt, then you may have to redo the above dough formulation to use the Kosher salt.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on November 02, 2011, 04:53:07 PM
Norma,

Since Jet_deck (Gene) informed us at Reply 91 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg151218/topicseen.html#msg151218 that Luigi's cold ferments its dough for 24 hours, I'd like to see you attempt a 24-hour cold fermented Luigi's clone dough. For this purpose, I would use the Luigi #1 clone dough formulation as set forth at Reply 177 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg151870.html#msg151870 but modified to reduce the amount of yeast to a value that I believe should work for a one-day cold fermented dough in your part of Pennsylvania this time of year. Using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html, this is what I get:

Luigi One-Day Cold Fermentation Clone Dough Formulation (Modified #1 Luigi)
Pendleton Power High-Gluten Flour, Unbleached (100%):
Water (Crystal Geyser Spring Water) (65%):
ADY (0.55%):
Salt (1.984%):
Sugar (0.22928%):
Total (167.76328%):
308.74 g  |  10.89 oz | 0.68 lbs
200.68 g  |  7.08 oz | 0.44 lbs
1.7 g | 0.06 oz | 0 lbs | 0.45 tsp | 0.15 tbsp
6.13 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.1 tsp | 0.37 tbsp
0.71 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.18 tsp | 0.06 tbsp
517.95 g | 18.27 oz | 1.14 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: Dough is for a single 18" pizza; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

In terms of the dough preparation, I would like you to try to achieve a finished dough temperature of around 80 degrees F. Also, before refrigerating, I suggest that you let the dough rest for about 20-30 minutes. That period would be about what it might take workers at Luigi's to take a large dough batch and divide and scale it into a large number of dough balls before putting them into the cooler. The rest period should also enable the dough ball to get some fermentation going before refrigerating. The objective is to get sufficient fermentation and to have an amount of sugar (residual sugar) left over beyond what the yeast needs as food to be available at the time of baking for final crust coloration. You will have to monitor the temper time at market to be sure that the dough isn't either underproofed or overproofed.

In the above formulation, the salt is regular table salt, which is what I assumed when I came up with the original Luigi clone dough formulations. If you prefer to use Kosher salt, then you may have to redo the above dough formulation to use the Kosher salt.

Peter

Peter,

I will use the formula you set-forth, and will use Geneís suggestion,  (of a 24 hr. cold ferment) since he did call the two Luigiís locations in San Diego and found out that information. I will try to follow you directions exactly.  I probably missed the part before about using regular table salt, when your first set the formulas forth, but I will use it this time.  I donít know if I will be able to find the crystal geyser spring water though, but will look at the supermarket.  I usually use bottled water I get at the supermarket.

Thanks, for setting-forth a Luigiís formulation to try for a 24 hr. ferment.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on November 07, 2011, 12:33:50 PM
The Luigiís attempt dough was mixed later this morning.  I did use Crystal Geyser Spring Water as the water in the formula.  I mixed the dough the same way as the DDD video.  My finished dough temperature was 78.8 degrees F, so I fell a little short of the targeted final dough temperature of 80 degrees F.  I let the dough sit out for a half an hour and then balled. 

In the pictures below, it can be seen that the Power flour  I received the sample of, has some lumps in the flour.  I donít know if that is common or not, since I never tried the Power flour before.  This was the same way the Power Flour was when it was sent to me.  The Power Flour sure isnít as silky as KASL, or other flours I have tried.

The dough was mixed in my Kitchen Aid mixer.  There werenít any problems with the Power Flour and the hydration.

Since Gene posted Luigiís dough is cold fermented, the dough ball will be cold fermented until tomorrow.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on November 07, 2011, 12:34:45 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on November 08, 2011, 09:49:13 PM
The Luigiís clone attempt was made today using the formula Peter set-forth, and the method of cold fermenting that Gene mentioned in this thread.  The dough ball sat out on my counter and beside my oven for 3 Ĺ hrs.  The dough ball looked like it had fermented okay.  The dough ball was easy to open to 18Ē, and I did toss and twirl it.  It was easy to toss this dough. 

The pizza baked okay, but I think I should have left it in the oven a little longer.  The crust was little darker than the pictures and the video show.  This was the video of the LuigiĎs clone attempt being cut by Steve.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKgZWMKdX-E  It can be seen in some of the video how the crust looked on some of close-up frames.

The Luigisí clone pizza did turn out very good in the taste of the crust.  That surprised Steve, Randy, my taste testers and me.  We couldnít believe a one day cold fermented dough had such a good taste in the crust.  I donít know if it was the Power Flour that made the taste of the crust taste better or the formula Peter set-forth.  Steve and I really liked how the Power flour makes a NY style pizza.  Randyís one slice was reheated after it was cold and he said the taste of the slice was even better reheated.  I was too busy trying to make other pies to be able to enjoy a reheated slice.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on November 08, 2011, 09:50:35 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on November 08, 2011, 09:51:51 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on November 08, 2011, 09:53:25 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on November 08, 2011, 09:54:51 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on November 08, 2011, 09:55:53 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Jet_deck on November 09, 2011, 01:42:47 AM
Norma, that looks like a pizza slice that I would love to eat.   :chef:
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on November 09, 2011, 03:51:33 AM
Norma,

Excellent stuff and that's a great looking pie!

The Power flour does provide great texture, structure and crunch but lacks in the browning department compared to what we've seen in the Luigi video. I don't know why that is but my hunch is that Diners & Drives may have left out some crucial info, especially when I tested the same dough in my pizza guy's oven, which runs at the same temps Luigi claims to run his at.

If Luigi really uses only a 24 hr cold fermentation and the PPF, I don't think there's a chance that he can get his pies looking like they did in the video. In other words, something's amiss here. I think we need to take another look at the formula...

I'll look through some of my older posts where I had the same problems with browning just to see what can be done. I hope that Peter might come up with an ingenious suggestion in the meantime  ;D

My bet is to increase the sugar amount but that might not always be the cure.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on November 09, 2011, 07:35:24 AM
Norma, that looks like a pizza slice that I would love to eat.   :chef:

Gene,

Thanks for saying that is a pizza slice that you would love to eat.  :) The Luigi's clone attempt in the taste of the pizza went well.  The color of the bottom crust, I am not too sure about.  I didn't even get to try a second slice.  :(  :-D

Thanks for your help in this thread!  ;D

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on November 09, 2011, 07:56:23 AM
Norma,

Excellent stuff and that's a great looking pie!

The Power flour does provide great texture, structure and crunch but lacks in the browning department compared to what we've seen in the Luigi video. I don't know why that is but my hunch is that Diners & Drives may have left out some crucial info, especially when I tested the same dough in my pizza guy's oven, which runs at the same temps Luigi claims to run his at.

If Luigi really uses only a 24 hr cold fermentation and the PPF, I don't think there's a chance that he can get his pies looking like they did in the video. In other words, something's amiss here. I think we need to take another look at the formula...

I'll look through some of my older posts where I had the same problems with browning just to see what can be done. I hope that Peter might come up with an ingenious suggestion in the meantime  ;D

My bet is to increase the sugar amount but that might not always be the cure.


Mike,

Thanks for you kind comments!  :)

I think the Power flour produced a dough that had a good balance between extensibility and elasticity.  The dough had some bubbles in the dough when stretching the skin and it also felt just about right.  The crunch in the final pizza seemed good to me.  I donít run my deck oven as high as Luigiís does, and donít know if that would have made the crust color better or not.  I tried to follow all the directions carefully, but canít up my oven temperature just to test one pie when I am trying to make regular pizzas. 

I know you also had problems with the browning issues and donít know if we can solve that or not.  Maybe an increase in the sugar can solve those problems.

I wanted to ask you a question as whether your flour had the same clumps in the flour?  I did give some Power flour to Steve yesterday, and showed him how the Power flour didnít seem to be silky.  The other flour Alex sent me the sample of wasnít like that. I donít know if my Power flour is older or might have picked up some moisture. Steve said maybe I should have sifted the flour, but I told him I wanted to try it out the way it was sent to me.  I know by sifting flour, it can sometimes can absorb more water, but that didnít seem to be a problem of the Power Flour and absorbing water, in the Luigi's clone attempt.  That part went well.

I wish I could purchase the Power flour in my area.  You are lucky to have access to Power Flour.  ;D  So far I really like the Power flour.

Norma 
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on November 09, 2011, 10:25:33 AM
Mike,

The Luigi clone dough formulation and related instructions I gave to Norma were calculated to see if she could coax enough sugar out of the dough over only a one-day cold ferment to provide more crust color. I was also concerned about her oven and its impact on crust coloration because I knew that she could not use it just for the Luigi clone, at least not on the day that she makes her regular pizza at market.

After seeing Norma's results using her deck oven to make Luigi clones, my first instinct is to increase the amount of sugar, especially in your case where you are using a standard home oven. By contrast, Norma perhaps still has the option of increasing the bake time with her deck oven, using the lower oven temperature, even if it means having to use a pizza screen to keep the bottom of the crust from burning while the top of the crust gets more browning.

You might recall that in the Luigi video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PRA_BJYvTc about the only dough ingredient that we could not find in a small bowl, even after all of the slicing and dicing of the video, was the sugar. Luigi only said that he used a "little" sugar. What he showed going into the mixer bowl looked to be more than just a "little" sugar but there was no way of knowing for sure. Maybe the part of the video that dealt with the sugar in more detail ended up on the cutting room floor. When I looked at the video again today after not having seen it in some time, I thought that the video was a real mess production-wise.

In your case, you might increase the amount of sugar (table sugar). A good starting point might be to use 2% to see if that results in improved crust color. The yeast can only consume simple sugars, which means that table sugar, which is a disaccharide, has to be converted to simple sugars (fructose and glucose) before the yeast can feed off of them. That conversion can take some time but hopefully should allow enough residual sugar at the time of baking (about a day later) to give more color. If that doesn't work, or work sufficiently, then it might mean having to lower the amount of yeast the next time so that the yeast doesn't consume too much of the table sugar (the simple sugars) and rely more on the simple sugars extracted from the starch in the flour by enzyme performance. At 2% sugar, you should not detect it as sweetness in the finished crust and it should not materially result in a more tender crust (although that might be a beneficial side effect in a very thin crust). So, the sugar's main function is to provide more crust color.

Norma might also try using more sugar, even if she decides to use her normal oven temperature--the one she uses to make her regular preferment Lehmann dough. Otherwise, she might just try a longer bake and closely monitor the bottom crust browning. She might even be able to make two pizzas for comparison purposes, one with sugar and one without.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on November 09, 2011, 11:55:00 AM


I wanted to ask you a question as whether your flour had the same clumps in the flour? 

Norma,

Mine didn't have any lumps in it at all. My hunch is that the sample you got is either an older one or it got wet at some point. I'd just sift the lumps out. But I'm glad you like the flour so far. I love that stuff  :)
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on November 09, 2011, 12:00:03 PM
Mike,

The Luigi clone dough formulation and related instructions I gave to Norma were calculated to see if she could coax enough sugar out of the dough over only a one-day cold ferment to provide more crust color. I was also concerned about her oven and its impact on crust coloration because I knew that she could not use it just for the Luigi clone, at least not on the day that she makes her regular pizza at market.

After seeing Norma's results using her deck oven to make Luigi clones, my first instinct is to increase the amount of sugar, especially in your case where you are using a standard home oven. By contrast, Norma perhaps still has the option of increasing the bake time with her deck oven, using the lower oven temperature, even if it means having to use a pizza screen to keep the bottom of the crust from burning while the top of the crust gets more browning.

You might recall that in the Luigi video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PRA_BJYvTc about the only dough ingredient that we could not find in a small bowl, even after all of the slicing and dicing of the video, was the sugar. Luigi only said that he used a "little" sugar. What he showed going into the mixer bowl looked to be more than just a "little" sugar but there was no way of knowing for sure. Maybe the part of the video that dealt with the sugar in more detail ended up on the cutting room floor. When I looked at the video again today after not having seen it in some time, I thought that the video was a real mess production-wise.

In your case, you might increase the amount of sugar (table sugar). A good starting point might be to use 2% to see if that results in improved crust color. The yeast can only consume simple sugars, which means that table sugar, which is a disaccharide, has to be converted to simple sugars (fructose and glucose) before the yeast can feed off of them. That conversion can take some time but hopefully should allow enough residual sugar at the time of baking (about a day later) to give more color. If that doesn't work, or work sufficiently, then it might mean having to lower the amount of yeast the next time so that the yeast doesn't consume too much of the table sugar (the simple sugars) and rely more on the simple sugars extracted from the starch in the flour by enzyme performance. At 2% sugar, you should not detect it as sweetness in the finished crust and it should not materially result in a more tender crust (although that might be a beneficial side effect in a very thin crust). So, the sugar's main function is to provide more crust color.

Norma might also try using more sugar, even if she decides to use her normal oven temperature--the one she uses to make her regular preferment Lehmann dough. Otherwise, she might just try a longer bake and closely monitor the bottom crust browning. She might even be able to make two pizzas for comparison purposes, one with sugar and one without.

Peter

Peter,

That makes sense.

However, I have tried the clones a few times now and the outcome was mostly the same regardless of the hearth I used (steel or stone). I'll give the 2% sugar a shot and see what happens, probably over the weekend.

I still think that something's missing in the video or at the very least, the entire dough info is somewhat blurry. I agree with you that some info could have ended up not being used.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on November 09, 2011, 01:29:08 PM


Norma might also try using more sugar, even if she decides to use her normal oven temperature--the one she uses to make her regular preferment Lehmann dough. Otherwise, she might just try a longer bake and closely monitor the bottom crust browning. She might even be able to make two pizzas for comparison purposes, one with sugar and one without.

Peter

Peter,

I will do both experiments next week.  Do you suggest I also try 2% sugar in the formula for the one experiment like Mike is going to try? 

I also wonder what might have been cut out of the video, as Mike and you suggested.

Since I never have tasted a real Luigi's pie, I still don't know if any of mine are like the real Luigi's pizza, but I would sell a pie like the one I made yesterday.  It was really good.  :)  Thanks, for setting-forth the formula and methods to try. 

I thought I had taken a picture of the top of the dough ball right before I opened it, but somehow i didn't.  The top of the dough ball did start to have a bubble forming on it.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on November 09, 2011, 01:33:00 PM
Norma,

Mine didn't have any lumps in it at all. My hunch is that the sample you got is either an older one or it got wet at some point. I'd just sift the lumps out. But I'm glad you like the flour so far. I love that stuff  :)

Mike,

Thanks for telling me your Power Flour didn't have any lumps in it.  You are probably right that my sample was probably older or had moisture at some point.  I will sift the flour the next time I use it.  I didn't think the Power flour should have looked clumpy.

Good luck with your next Luigi's attempt!  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: scott123 on November 09, 2011, 02:00:16 PM
Additional sugar might give you the browning you're looking for, but so might a lower hydration.  I'm still not giving up on the idea that Luigi's might be working with 63% hydration.

The benefit of lowering the water vs. increasing the sugar is additional crispiness.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on November 09, 2011, 02:03:41 PM
I will do both experiments next week.  Do you suggest I also try 2% sugar in the formula for the one experiment like Mike is going to try? 

Norma,

Yes, I think that 2% sugar should be a good starting point. It is always difficult when you are trying a new pizza dough to get it just right when baked in a given oven. If you had a pizzeria and made hundreds of pizzas over the course of a week, as I imagine Luigi does, you would eventually become an expert in both making the dough and pizzas and finding the best bake protocol for your given oven. I would imagine you discovered that with your preferment Lehmann dough even though you only use it one day a week at market.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on November 09, 2011, 02:42:34 PM
Additional sugar might give you the browning you're looking for, but so might a lower hydration.  I'm still not giving up on the idea that Luigi's might be working with 63% hydration.

The benefit of lowering the water vs. increasing the sugar is additional crispiness.

Scott,

You might be right about the lowering the water vs. increasing the sugar for additional crispness.  :) There is lot to think about when formulating any formula.  The crispness on the attempt I did yesterday seemed okay to the taste testers and me, but I am not sure how a real Luigi's pie is when eaten fresh out of his oven.  Only someone that has eaten a fresh pie from Luigi's would know that.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on November 09, 2011, 02:54:27 PM
Norma,

Yes, I think that 2% sugar should be a good starting point. It is always difficult when you are trying a new pizza dough to get it just right when baked in a given oven. If you had a pizzeria and made hundreds of pizzas over the course of a week, as I imagine Luigi does, you would eventually become an expert in both making the dough and pizzas and finding the best bake protocol for your given oven. I would imagine you discovered that with your preferment Lehmann dough even though you only use it one day a week at market.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for telling me 2% sugar would be a good staring point to try for better crust coloration.

Luigi did work for Bronx and other pizzerias before, so he would know much more than I do about dough making, formulations, fermentation, (and what works and doesnĎt work) and finding the best bake protocol for a given oven. 

I know I have tried many experiments in the deck oven and at home.  Each one has its own set of challenges.  It did take me a long while to eventually get my preferment Lehmann dough to where the fermentation of the preferment, bake temperatures, water temperatures, and everything else fit together.  At least that is behind me now.  :-D

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on November 09, 2011, 11:48:06 PM
Mike,

Thanks for telling me your Power Flour didn't have any lumps in it.  You are probably right that my sample was probably older or had moisture at some point.  I will sift the flour the next time I use it.  I didn't think the Power flour should have looked clumpy.

Good luck with your next Luigi's attempt!  :)

Norma

Norma,

If the guy you got the Power Flour from has one bag, he most likely will have access to more.

Ask him for a fresh one, ideally a 50lb bag. I know that Pendleton has milling facilities in Tennessee, Georgia and Alabama (Milner Milling) if I'm not mistaken, which should serve the broader East Coast.

Maybe mention Milner Milling's Power flour and see what he says.

Thanks for the good luck wishes. :). I'll report back on that one.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on November 10, 2011, 09:52:15 AM
Norma,

If the guy you got the Power Flour from has one bag, he most likely will have access to more.

Ask him for a fresh one, ideally a 50lb bag. I know that Pendleton has milling facilities in Tennessee, Georgia and Alabama (Milner Milling) if I'm not mistaken, which should serve the broader East Coast.

Maybe mention Milner Milling's Power flour and see what he says.

Thanks for the good luck wishes. :). I'll report back on that one.

Mike,

Alex is the person that answered me back from PFM.  He was trying to find me a distributor in my area, but just sent me a sample to try.  I did call all my local distributors, even Sysco (Alex said Sysco does carry Power Flour), and none of them carry the Power Flour in my area.  I am not sure about the Phila. area, but that is too far for me to go to buy a 50 lb. bag of Power Flour.  I canít ask Alex for a 50 lb. bag for a sample.  :-D  I was lucky I did get the sample to try.

Thanks for you help in trying to find me 50 lb. bags of Power Flour.  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: PizzaEater101 on November 11, 2011, 05:19:19 PM
Question about the sauce.  I have been following this thread but may have missed something.  I think Mike (Essen) added some water to the sauce he was making, maybe to make it thinner but that was early on in this reverse engineering project.  Could someone tell me water should still be added?  I read Peter's sauce post here and did not see any water added but I might have missed later on if it should be added and there are so many post here it's hard for me to find.  Thanks much.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on November 12, 2011, 08:44:27 AM
Question about the sauce.  I have been following this thread but may have missed something.  I think Mike (Essen) added some water to the sauce he was making, maybe to make it thinner but that was early on in this reverse engineering project.  Could someone tell me water should still be added?  I read Peter's sauce post here and did not see any water added but I might have missed later on if it should be added and there are so many post here it's hard for me to find.  Thanks much.

James,

If you are looking where Peter posted the amounts of ingredients to add to the 7/11 Ground Tomatoes, I they are at 
Reply 228
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg152091.html#msg152091

Peter converted ingredients to volume measurements.
Reply 437 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg153861.html#msg153861

Where Mike made the sauce with the amounts of ingredients at Reply 322
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg152728.html#msg152728
After Mike gave the thumbs up to Peter he made this post.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg153103.html#msg153103

Where Peter mentions about the possibility of Luigi thinning the sauce is at Reply 342
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg152873.html#msg152873

Where Mike posted he used at Reply 504
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg154647.html#msg154647

Gene posted where is added water to Full Red with the ingredients at Reply 514
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg155469.html#msg155469

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: PizzaEater101 on November 12, 2011, 12:53:11 PM
Norma, thank you so much for the links to the sauce posts.  I didn't use 7/11 or 6 in 1 tomatoes or Full Red but used Classico Crushed Tomato in Puree.  It turned out a bit thick so after reading Gene's post I decided to add some water to thin it down some.  It taste very good.  I have to re-read the post carefully when I make sauce next time just so I understand it fully.  Not sure how good of job I did this time but it's good nevertheless.

As Peter mentions in his post there is nothing in the video showing that Luigi thins out his sauce but from eating there last Summer it seemed the sauce is fairly thin.  It is possible that they just didn't show that part of the process of making the sauce.  Maybe Luigi didn't want the whole cat out of the bag if you get what I am saying. 
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: scottserena on November 12, 2011, 02:39:06 PM
Got my 25# bag of Power Flour last night!

The attached picture is of the below recipe with the sugar at 2% and the ball of the left at 63% hydration and the one on the right a 65%. Neither were sticky at the least and least almost 0% bowl residual. I will be baking tomorrow after a 24 hours cold ferment
It is amazing that is flour can adsorb 65% so easily without being sticky and slack. It is like it is begging for more water.

Question: I used IDY, instead of ADY and reduced the amount by 25%, does that sound about right?


Norma,

Since Jet_deck (Gene) informed us at Reply 91 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg151218/topicseen.html#msg151218 that Luigi's cold ferments its dough for 24 hours, I'd like to see you attempt a 24-hour cold fermented Luigi's clone dough. For this purpose, I would use the Luigi #1 clone dough formulation as set forth at Reply 177 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg151870.html#msg151870 but modified to reduce the amount of yeast to a value that I believe should work for a one-day cold fermented dough in your part of Pennsylvania this time of year. Using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html, this is what I get:

Luigi One-Day Cold Fermentation Clone Dough Formulation (Modified #1 Luigi)
Pendleton Power High-Gluten Flour, Unbleached (100%):
Water (Crystal Geyser Spring Water) (65%):
ADY (0.55%):
Salt (1.984%):
Sugar (0.22928%):
Total (167.76328%):
308.74 g  |  10.89 oz | 0.68 lbs
200.68 g  |  7.08 oz | 0.44 lbs
1.7 g | 0.06 oz | 0 lbs | 0.45 tsp | 0.15 tbsp
6.13 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.1 tsp | 0.37 tbsp
0.71 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.18 tsp | 0.06 tbsp
517.95 g | 18.27 oz | 1.14 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: Dough is for a single 18" pizza; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

In terms of the dough preparation, I would like you to try to achieve a finished dough temperature of around 80 degrees F. Also, before refrigerating, I suggest that you let the dough rest for about 20-30 minutes. That period would be about what it might take workers at Luigi's to take a large dough batch and divide and scale it into a large number of dough balls before putting them into the cooler. The rest period should also enable the dough ball to get some fermentation going before refrigerating. The objective is to get sufficient fermentation and to have an amount of sugar (residual sugar) left over beyond what the yeast needs as food to be available at the time of baking for final crust coloration. You will have to monitor the temper time at market to be sure that the dough isn't either underproofed or overproofed.

In the above formulation, the salt is regular table salt, which is what I assumed when I came up with the original Luigi clone dough formulations. If you prefer to use Kosher salt, then you may have to redo the above dough formulation to use the Kosher salt.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on November 12, 2011, 02:45:06 PM
Norma, thank you so much for the links to the sauce posts.  I didn't use 7/11 or 6 in 1 tomatoes or Full Red but used Classico Crushed Tomato in Puree.  It turned out a bit thick so after reading Gene's post I decided to add some water to thin it down some.  It taste very good.  I have to re-read the post carefully when I make sauce next time just so I understand it fully.  Not sure how good of job I did this time but it's good nevertheless.

As Peter mentions in his post there is nothing in the video showing that Luigi thins out his sauce but from eating there last Summer it seemed the sauce is fairly thin.  It is possible that they just didn't show that part of the process of making the sauce.  Maybe Luigi didn't want the whole cat out of the bag if you get what I am saying. 

James,

The Classico Crushed Tomatoes should make a good sauce, with the added ingredients Peter figured out.  There is always the option of thinning the sauce down like you did.  Each person has their own preferences for how they like their sauces for pizza.  Since you did eat pizza at Luigiís, you should know how their sauce looked on their pizzas.  Other members on this thread think everything wasnít on the DDD video at LuigiĎs.  I also agree.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: PizzaEater101 on November 13, 2011, 11:33:10 AM
James,

The Classico Crushed Tomatoes should make a good sauce, with the added ingredients Peter figured out.  There is always the option of thinning the sauce down like you did.  Each person has their own preferences for how they like their sauces for pizza.  Since you did eat pizza at Luigiís, you should know how their sauce looked on their pizzas.  Other members on this thread think everything wasnít on the DDD video at LuigiĎs.  I also agree.

Norma

Hi Norma, I followed Peter's formula that he posted here with the added ingredients that he figured out, I did it for a 28 oz can of Classico Crushed Tomatoes.   I wanted to thin it out a bit so what I did was I added water but instead of by weight I just added by volume.  I added tablespoon by tablespoon until I felt the consistency was how I preferred it.  After 10 tablespoons it was really right for my preference.  I could have added a couple more for a total of 12 and I think it would have turned out just fine too but 10 tablespoons of water for the 28 oz of sauce was perfect for me.  In the past I have tried to water down sauce and put too much water and ruined it.  This time I did it right.

San Diego might be only a two hour drive without traffic but in the case when I went in summer it took maybe 3 hours or more to get there due to traffic but I don't go there much.  I will go next summer and try out Luigi again.  When I tried it it seemed that the sauce was fairly thin.

By the way my wife's brother had a party for his 2 year old.  He had the idea to bring his propane grill to the rec center in the park near his home and do a pizza party.  He had a bunch of ingredients and he bought dough from an Italian restaurant.  He had an assembly line to make pizza, or have the kids and adults make pizza.  Understandable the party goers have no experience with pizza making so not one person made a good pizza.  Since I have years of experience and learned a lot here at the forum I decided to bring my own stuff and make pizza.  I used a formulation from this discussion, the one similar to the one you used in your latest effort, I used my own sauce that I made from the Classico too.  Even tho my finger is still messed up and not healed yet I am finding that I can work around my finger.  The grill had only enough real estate to make a 12 inch, not a real NY 18 incher but for what it was the pizza turned out great.  Due to lack of a perfect baking setup the top did not get as done as I would like but I can say with the dough formulation that you guys figured out and the sauce it did turn out excellent.  I wish I had pics but I don't.  Forgot the camera but maybe someone at the party had taken pics, not sure. 
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on November 13, 2011, 12:16:29 PM
James,

Good to hear you sauce and pizzas turned out good!  :) Glad to hear you could also work with your bad finger. 

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on November 13, 2011, 12:18:40 PM

Got my 25# bag of Power Flour last night!


Scott,

Best of luck with your Luigi's clone!  :)  Good to hear you were able to get some Power Flour.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on November 13, 2011, 01:02:52 PM
Got my 25# bag of Power Flour last night!

The attached picture is of the below recipe with the sugar at 2% and the ball of the left at 63% hydration and the one on the right a 65%. Neither were sticky at the least and least almost 0% bowl residual. I will be baking tomorrow after a 24 hours cold ferment
It is amazing that is flour can adsorb 65% so easily without being sticky and slack. It is like it is begging for more water.

Question: I used IDY, instead of ADY and reduced the amount by 25%, does that sound about right?

Scott,

I'm glad to see you do the side by side experiments with the 63% and 65% hydration values. Like scott123, I wondered whether Luigi might be using a hydration value below 65% even though the Power flour has a higher than average rated absorption value.

Your adjustment for using IDY is correct. The adjustment should be by weight (or baker's percent), not volume.

If you get good results with your experiment, it should be easy to adjust the dough formulation you started out with to reflect the actual amounts of ingredients you are using for your experiments.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: scottserena on November 13, 2011, 09:21:03 PM
So today I baked both my 63% and 65% hydration clone. with the sugar uped to 2%

I started with the 63% at 550 degrees.  This is what happen after 6 minutes.

I figured that 550 was too high and lowered the temperature to 525 for the rest of the pies.

Taste was good. But I wasnt going for a nearly neo pie.

Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: scottserena on November 13, 2011, 09:24:29 PM
so next was the 65% baked at 525

Better but not exactly what I was looking for. I am baking 12" pies, as that is the biggest my stone can handle.
But I think I need to increase the TF. I am using a TF of 0.070736. I think it need to be a touch thicker.

Everyone thought this one was pretty good. But I would like the crust to be a little crisper.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: scottserena on November 13, 2011, 09:27:16 PM
next was a tomato pizza like they make at Luigi's.  This was the 63% dough

Flavor of the tomato's were excellent, but they were too watery and made the bottom crust to mushy.

I always have to make a few cheeseless for my lactose intolerant wife!

 

Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: scottserena on November 13, 2011, 09:31:19 PM
Same one as above, but the 65% dough. Again very watery. This time the color of the crust was very grey, I am not sure why.

All of the pies at about a 6 to 7 minute bake. Maybe lower the oven temp even more? 500 degrees?


So I am not sure where to go for here. The 65% baked at 525 was good, but I would like it crisper.

I am thinking about making a 63% with the original sugar amount, not the sugar increased to 2%.

Any suggestions?

Thanks

Scott
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on November 13, 2011, 10:51:18 PM
Scott,

How did your dough ball look after the cold ferment, and how did the dough handle when you opened up the dough ball?  Did it stretch well?  Also what oven rack position did you have your pizza stone on? 

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: scottserena on November 13, 2011, 11:11:11 PM
This is the 65% dough after 24 hours. I let it sit at room temp for 2 hours before the bake.

It handled ok, it was very elastic and did not want to open to the 12" size very easily.

But then again opening dough is a not a strong suit of mine.

My oven has a stone setting that turns on the top and bottom elements and the convection fans. I think I may have had it to close to the top broiler element.

After some more feedback I will lower the rack and try it again. 
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on November 14, 2011, 06:49:24 AM
This is the 65% dough after 24 hours. I let it sit at room temp for 2 hours before the bake.

It handled ok, it was very elastic and did not want to open to the 12" size very easily.

But then again opening dough is a not a strong suit of mine.

My oven has a stone setting that turns on the top and bottom elements and the convection fans. I think I may have had it to close to the top broiler element.

After some more feedback I will lower the rack and try it again. 

Scott,

Thanks for posting the picture of your dough balls.  It is hard to diagnose what the problems are with your dough, or your oven from behind a computer keyboard.  Your dough balls really shouldnít have been elastic, after a 24 hr. cold ferment and a 2 hr. warm-up.  If you need a video to watch on how to open dough balls, other members or I could provide a video for you. You may be right about the pizzas, and they might have been too close to the broiler element.  It is good if your oven can have both the top and bottom elements on at the same time.  I donít know about the convection fans though.  Maybe someone that is more experienced in oven set-ups can help you to achieve better results with you oven.  It might take some trails and errors in knowing what the best set-up for you oven is.

So far my experiences with Luigiís clone doughs are they are easy to open from dough balls.  I have been baking my attempts in a deck oven, so my results would be different than yours.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: scottserena on November 14, 2011, 07:55:35 AM
Thanks Norma for your help.

I am  going to try again and lower shelf and maybe turn off the convection

I think I am going to leave the sugar at 2% though. 

Sure if you have some videos to make me a better dough ball opener upper that would be great.

I wonder why they were elastic and yours were not?
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: buceriasdon on November 14, 2011, 08:02:51 AM
Scott, Looking at your photos I would think you need to decrease your thickness factor, not increase it. I frequently make tomato pies and find it worthwhile to let the tomato slices drain on paper towels slightly before topping with them.
Don
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: scottserena on November 14, 2011, 09:15:45 AM
Excellent idea on draing the tomatoes on paper towels first.  Flavor wise this was a favorite, but to way too watery.

I think I am going to keep the tf the same, and stretch the dough out better

I think this is close and with a little tweaking it will be right.

Thanks Don
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: scottserena on November 14, 2011, 09:20:00 AM
Norma,

I friend of mine has a deck oven I can try and a professional Hobart mixer. Once I feel I have the dough close to the results I want I will go to his resturant and try it there.

What temperature were you doing your bake at?

I might try even lower the a 63% hydration. I am thinking in the range of 60%

Thanks for all the feedback
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on November 14, 2011, 09:36:42 AM
Scott,

There can be a difference between elastic doughs.  Different people use the terms extensibility and elasticity different.  I think the term extensible means the character of the dough is that it allows stretching without springing back, and the term elastic means the character of the dough causes it to spring back.  This also can be called memory.  If you are having problems with your Luigiís dough balls in opening them, they could be something wrong with your mixing process, how the dough ferments, or other things.  There are many variables that can go into each formula.

This video by Tony Gemignani does show the pizza dough fundamentals of opening a pizza dough ball.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjYqw1CLZsA

If you try another experimental Luigiís dough, try to record the final dough temperature, how long the dough was mixed, (what were the mixing methods, type of mixer, or mixing by hand) how the dough balls looked before and after fermenting, and notes on how you opened the dough balls and how they performed.  They are many variables in the process, so maybe if you keep notes on your whole process either I or someone else can help your better.

It is good after you get your dough okay you can use a friends deck oven and Hobart mixer.  I had my oven about 525 degrees F, but I would have like to have it a little higher, but since I made my other pizzas at about 525 degrees F, I canít just up the temperature of the deck oven for one pie. Each deck oven operates different, and there might be experiments to do in each type of deck oven.  

You can use whatever hydration you feel might be okay. You might stay in the same hydrations you were trying to see what happens first, then go to another hydration if things donít work out well for you.  You said the Power Flour didn't have any problems with mixing with the hydration you were using, if I remember correctly.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: PizzaEater101 on November 14, 2011, 09:51:52 AM
James,

Good to hear you sauce and pizzas turned out good!  :) Glad to hear you could also work with your bad finger. 

Norma

Thanks Norma.  Bad finger and all I just could not stay out of the pizza making game!  Everyone at the pizza party was impressed by my pizza making skills.  Mine was the only pizza that looked like a pizza.  I am not knocking the others it's just I have a lot of experience shaping and making these things and the people there did not.  Thanks to you Norma and everyone else here for helping me understand the art and science of pizza making I am able to make a good pizza.  Not as good as many of the people here but I am still working on building up my skills day by day.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on November 14, 2011, 10:59:15 AM
This time I sifted the Power Flour since my sample was lumpy.  The Luigiís formula with the 2% sugar was mixed in my Kitchen Aid mixer.  The mix time was about 8 minutes.  I let the dough sit out at the ambient room temperature of 70 degrees F for Ĺ hr. before balling.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: scottserena on November 14, 2011, 05:03:45 PM
Mine was a little lumpy too Norma.

I am excited to see your results with the 2% sugar.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on November 14, 2011, 05:15:36 PM
Mine was a little lumpy too Norma.

I am excited to see your results with the 2% sugar.

Scott,

You will learn how to mix any dough.  Just stick around on the forum long enough.  I still have failures in new doughs I try.  :-D

I have no idea how successful my attempt will be with the 2% sugar.  Even my deck oven doesn't act the same with different formulas.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on November 16, 2011, 09:28:28 AM
The attempt with the Luigiís pizza went better yesterday with the suggestion for 2% sugar added in the formula by Peter.  There was better crust coloration on the rim, and bottom crust, but I am not sure if it still was enough. 

The Luigiís dough ball was left to ferment beside the deck oven for about 4 hrs.  Geneís idea of letting the dough ferment beside the deck oven went well, and the dough ball didnít over ferment or get top bubbles.

The dough ball was very easy to open and could be tossed and twirled easily.  In my opinion, there is great strength in this dough.  The Luigiís pie did turn out good in the flavor of the crust, and also the crispness in the crust and rim.  Steve, my taste testers, and I enjoyed this pie.  There was one thing I didnít understand about this pie though.  I didnít eat a reheated slice, but Randy did, and he said after the slice was reheated the pie became more chewy or was tougher to eat.  Randy said the pie made last week was better after the reheat. 

This is a video of the Luigiís attempt being cut by Steve.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyjiLGo4mLM


Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on November 16, 2011, 09:30:15 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on November 16, 2011, 09:31:30 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on November 16, 2011, 09:32:21 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on November 16, 2011, 09:33:17 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on November 16, 2011, 09:34:20 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: scottserena on November 16, 2011, 09:34:48 AM
Those look and sound awesome!  65% hydration?

I am impressed!
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on November 16, 2011, 09:36:38 AM
The 3 slices on the right are the Luigi's attempt.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on November 16, 2011, 09:39:50 AM
Those look and sound awesome!  65% hydration?

I am impressed!

Scott,

Yes, the formula I used had 65% hydration.  Thanks for the kind comments!  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on November 16, 2011, 02:57:12 PM
Norma,

The Luigi clone looks fantastic. Very impressive. How do you like the flour so far?
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on November 16, 2011, 03:51:01 PM
Norma,

The Luigi clone looks fantastic. Very impressive. How do you like the flour so far?

Mike,

Thanks for the kind words!  :) I still think I could get better rim and bottom crust browning. I do really like the Power Flour so far. The dough seems really strong using the Power Flour.

I think next week I might try KASL with the same formula, and see if I can get anywhere near the same results.

Are you soon making another Luigi's attempt?   

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on November 16, 2011, 04:54:00 PM
Mike,

Thanks for the kind words!  :) I still think I could get better rim and bottom crust browning. I do really like the Power Flour so far. The dough seems really strong using the Power Flour.

I think next week I might try KASL with the same formula, and see if I can get anywhere near the same results.

Are you soon making another Luigi's attempt?   

Norma

Norma,

I had planned to make one this past weekend but didn't get around to it.

I thought the same thing in regards to the browning of the crust. I noticed that the PPF doesn't brown very well in my several attempts of the Luigi clone, even after a little experiment of a three-day fermentation. So I don't know if more sugar is the solution or maybe a bit of oil or if other factors need to be taken into consideration.

However, if Luigi really does only a 24 hr ferment and bakes between 525įF and 550įF then something's amiss like I said before. I can't put my finger on it just yet.  ???
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on November 16, 2011, 09:49:41 PM
Norma,

I thought the same thing in regards to the browning of the crust. I noticed that the PPF doesn't brown very well in my several attempts of the Luigi clone, even after a little experiment of a three-day fermentation. So I don't know if more sugar is the solution or maybe a bit of oil or if other factors need to be taken into consideration.

However, if Luigi really does only a 24 hr ferment and bakes between 525įF and 550įF then something's amiss like I said before. I can't put my finger on it just yet.  ???

Mike,

It is interesting since you also tried the Power Flour different times, with the formulas Peter set-forth, that you didnít get more browning of the crust either.  I also donít know if more sugar is the solution, or maybe a little oil.  We will never know if Luigi did add oil to the dough. Something could have been omitted in the DDD video.   I really donít know if a higher bake temperature would have helped my pie brown better.  I know you did bake some of your Luigiís pies at a higher temperatures. 

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: chickenparm on November 17, 2011, 12:19:28 AM
Norma,
Those pics are fantastic! Making me soooo hungry for more!
 :chef:

I wanted to ask,if you can TASTE a difference in the crust or is it more feel and texture?
 :)
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on November 17, 2011, 07:00:40 AM
Norma,
Those pics are fantastic! Making me soooo hungry for more!
 :chef:

I wanted to ask,if you can TASTE a difference in the crust or is it more feel and texture?
 :)


Bill,

Thanks for saying the pics are good!  To answer your questions about if you can really taste a difference in the taste and texture of the crust, I would venture to say yes.  The formula Peter set-forth for my last attempt did produce a very good taste in the crust and the method of letting the dough ball ferment longer beside the oven I guess helped, but I am not sure if the formula did contribute to the texture or color of the crust.  It is all confusing, but from last weeks attempt to the one I did this week, there was a little different texture in the crust.  I donít know if it was the bake time, the amount of fermentation, the added sugar, or something else.  I hope I did explain enough for you or anyone to understand.  Each little variable can produce something different, at least in my opinion.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: PizzaEater101 on December 29, 2011, 10:54:11 PM
I am very excited here because I went to Costco Business and they had, yes they had Pendleton Power Flour!  I was there a few months ago and did not see that being sold there.  They had a lot of Conagra but not PPF.   They had a 25 and 50 lb bag.

I did not buy any because I have enough flour for pizza now but when I run out I would like to buy it.  Problem is I don't want to not buy it in case they stop carrying it yet I don't need it now.  Norma and anyone else who has used PPF do you know how long it last?  Maybe a sell by date?  I forgot to look at it.  If I buy a bag and not use it for a few months will it last?

I hope this query at the Costco site works in this link.  You can see all the PPF they have.  Now if any of you mentioned they have it already and I missed that, my apologies because I should have read that since I started this discussion and I have been following it but if I missed, my apologies. 

http://www.costco.com/Common/Search.aspx?whse=BD_827&topnav=bd&search=pendleton&N=0&Ntt=pendleton&cm_re=1_en-_-Top_Left_Nav-_-Top_search&lang=en-US

Thanks much ...


James
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: scott123 on December 30, 2011, 12:12:21 AM
James, climate tends to dictate flour longevity. Here in NJ, I've had flours last 2 years without any issue, but in your warmer climate, you might see critters sooner. Flour can be frozen, if you've got the space in your freezer.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on December 30, 2011, 08:29:14 AM
James,

Scott123 is right, that flour should last for awhile if your area isnít prone to critters.  Freezing flour can be another option like Scott posted.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: PizzaEater101 on December 30, 2011, 01:32:05 PM
Scott and Norma, thank you very much for the info on the longevity of PPM.  I am pretty excited about this seeing it at Costco Business of all places.   I gotta buy some and the price is right. 
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on December 30, 2011, 11:28:04 PM
James,

I'm stoked that Costco now carries the PPF. It would mean that many more members here will have access to the flour, if Costco sells it in all locations.

Regarding the longevity, I wouldn't worry too much about it. I store my flours at a temp between 50-60įF ambient, never had any critters in it and it's still as good as the first day.

Get a bag, especially at that price!
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: PizzaEater101 on December 31, 2011, 03:04:44 PM
James,

I'm stoked that Costco now carries the PPF. It would mean that many more members here will have access to the flour, if Costco sells it in all locations.

Regarding the longevity, I wouldn't worry too much about it. I store my flours at a temp between 50-60įF ambient, never had any critters in it and it's still as good as the first day.

Get a bag, especially at that price!

Hi Mike, thanks for the info on the storing of flour. 

I am not sure if all the Costcos carry the PPF because I saw it at their specialty Costco called Costco Business Center.   There are not as many of these and they target more the restaurant owners type of person than the home shopper.  So they have some in certain locations but not a lot.  So not sure if the regular Costco does have the PPF or just the Business Center.

If I recall, you are in San Francisco.  I did a search for one but did not see one there but they have one in Hayward.  Not sure how far from SF that is.  If not too far you might go out there and get a bag if you are a member. 

Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on December 31, 2011, 07:29:55 PM
Hi Mike, thanks for the info on the storing of flour. 

I am not sure if all the Costcos carry the PPF because I saw it at their specialty Costco called Costco Business Center.   There are not as many of these and they target more the restaurant owners type of person than the home shopper.  So they have some in certain locations but not a lot.  So not sure if the regular Costco does have the PPF or just the Business Center.

If I recall, you are in San Francisco.  I did a search for one but did not see one there but they have one in Hayward.  Not sure how far from SF that is.  If not too far you might go out there and get a bag if you are a member. 



James,

Thanks for the info. Hayward is about a 30 min drive from where I'm at but depending on traffic it can be an hour. By the time I get there and back I might as well keep getting it from my pizza guy Armando. Saves me a lot of hassle with the traffic.

Thanks for checking, though.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: scottserena on January 31, 2012, 06:48:20 PM
I have been working on this dough recipe for 3 months now. I have been asked by a buddy of mine that owns four Italian Restaurant here in Orange County California to clone the Luigi's Pizza dough.

After trying many tries I have settled on the following:

Power Flour Unbleached Flour  100%
Crytsal Geyser Water              63%
IDY                                      .4%
Salt                                     2.0%
Sugar                                   2.5%

Water is heated to 95 degrees and the sugar and yeast are added. Flour and salt are placed in the bowl of my KA and the water, yeast, sugar is added and mixed at speed 3 for 10 minutes. Final dough temperature of 82 degrees. Balled and bench rested for 2 hours and then cold fermented for 18 hours

Today we decide to push this to see if we could do any better. We kept everything the same and varied the hydration. We tried the following, 58%, 63%, 65% and 68%

I preferred the 63%,  most everyone else preferred either the 58% or the 63%. No one preferred the 65% and one person really liked the 68% as it had a Neapolitan texture.

We made 18" pizzas and each dough balls weighed 18 oz's (as per the DDD video)

Here is the picture of the 58%


 
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: scottserena on January 31, 2012, 06:49:19 PM
and the 63%
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: scottserena on January 31, 2012, 06:50:09 PM
65%
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: scottserena on January 31, 2012, 06:54:58 PM
and finally  the 68%

All were baked for roughly 6 minutes at 525 degrees.

We are trying one more bake next week. But this time it will be a blind taste test, no one will know the hydration levels.

We would like a bit more crunch to the crust. I remember Luigi's being a bit more crunchy then what we made here today, but I have only had slices from Luigi's which tend to crisp up a little during the re-heating.

Any suggestions would be much appreciated.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: scott123 on January 31, 2012, 07:11:08 PM
Scott, can you recall the differences in tenderness between each version?  How was the level of tenderness/chewiness generally?

There's always going to be outliers, but I think 2.5% sugar is a little high for NY style. Maybe.  I would play around with maybe 2% or possibly even less.

Is 525 as high as your oven will go?  Are you positioning the stone close to the broiler and using the broiler during the bake?  You've got a discernible top/bottom heat ratio issue. The top needs a lot more heat- the bottom about the same, but, you need to decrease the bake time so the bottom doesn't get so black- Luigi's doesn't have anywhere near that amount of color.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: scottserena on January 31, 2012, 07:25:35 PM
I did not like the 65% very much, had no crispness to it at all.

the 68% was soft and pillowy like a Neo Pie.

Both the 58% and 63% were tender and chewy at the crust.  These were by far everyone favorite

These were baked at the restaurants wolf pizza oven. 
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: scottserena on January 31, 2012, 07:28:55 PM
Actually everyone felt the bottom char was just about right, but I agree I touch less.

The oven does not seem to have a lot of top heat to it.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: scottserena on January 31, 2012, 07:33:06 PM
here is a pic of a Luigi's pie for reference.

I do not have an upskirt photo of an Luigis pie
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: PizzaEater101 on April 26, 2012, 09:15:52 PM
Nice work scottserena.  

Okay I'm reviving this thread. Here we go.  There have been nice recreations of the Luigi pizza pie.  Many variations and all nice jobs. Can some one or some ones here summarize which might be some of the best recipes both for dough formulation and for the sauce for this pizza and any other tips?  I appreciate everyone who has given input to the thread I started last summer.  I read through it again but need a summary of the most likely formulas for the dough and the sauce since there are so many great versions here and so many great theories and thoughts on this.


Thank You,


James
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: PizzaEater101 on May 25, 2012, 10:22:13 PM
Was in San Diego the past couple of days.  My niece was in town and she had to take some medical school exam called the MCAT at the San Diego State University.  I could not pass up the chance on eating at Luigi again.  She was at the test so it was just me when I went to Luigi so I could not eat a whole pie so I just got two slices.  One the Capone which is a meat type of pie and the Crime Stopper I think it was called. Has Ricotta and  Meatballs as well as I think Marinara sauce. The guy told me it is like Lasagna.  Well I tried it and it is very reminiscent to lasagna. When he said that it was like lasagna I was not sure if that would end up being a good or bad thing but had to try it and you know what it was good.  I made a mistake though I should have bought a whole pie to go and brought it back to the hotel and put it in the fridge then brought it back home to LA.  Even reheated Luigi taste exceptional.

Last time I went to the location on Diners Drive Ins and Dives so this time I tried the other location. Pizza just as good at both locations but next time I will go to the first location from DDD.  I just like it better, I mean the decor and area not the pizza, it's the same.  Still have not seen Mr. Luigi, oh well.

Here are some pics but before that I have to say the pizza is exceptional.  Did I say that already, yeah, okay. As Guy would say it's out of bounds and out of this world.  I have to say it is.  It's my favorite NY Style Pie.  I like many different NY Style Pies but this takes the cake, um, I mean, takes the pie.  I love so many different NY Style Pies but this just jumps out beyond those others.  I wish Luigi was in LA not SD.  Now I'm tempted to go to SD every year just for pie, but man two hour drive.  I need to get my baking situation up to par at home so I can do the Luigi clone and see if I can duplicate it so I don't have to drive to SD.  Well, SD is nice though but if I'm going there it's for pie and for sight seeing.  I'd go to Tijuana too but TJ is so dangerous now I'd forget that.

I tried to post pics but the file sizes are way to big and I have to resize them.  I will do so and post pics tomorrow.  Gotta go now but tomorrow you'll see the pics.  By the way this is the perfect pie.

Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on May 25, 2012, 10:59:12 PM
James,

I am glad you enjoyed Luigiís pizza.  :)  Looking forward to your pictures.

I donít know if you saw the posts from Nick (scarboni),  but if you look at his thread and read though the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,19046.msg186081.html#msg186081 you will see what Nick had to say about Luigiís and Bronx Pizzas

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: patnx2 on May 26, 2012, 03:09:19 AM
I made a Luigi  type pizza using 2% sugar at 65%hyd. 24 hour in frig after 1/2 hour counter rest. i will try another this week or two. one with 48 hour in frig. One of the best handling and easily opened pizzas.This might become my go to. Patrick
ps thanks all for your fun work.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: PizzaEater101 on May 26, 2012, 11:46:09 AM
Norma, thanks for the link to the post about Luigi and Bronx.  Don't think I read that one so I'm gonna check it out.  I love Luigi so it will be interesting to read about what he has to say about that and Bronx.  Not familiar with Bronx so should be interesting. Thanks.

Patrick, sounds like you made a really good pie.  Not sure but have you ever been to Luigi? If you have how did your pie compare to Luigi?  If you have not been there it really does not matter as long as you made a pizza you like.  

Here are pics.  Hope I resized so it will fit within the size max limit -

Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: patnx2 on May 27, 2012, 03:49:44 AM
I don't know if I  ever ate luigi's but I did eat a lot of pizza in sd in the early 70s. My saying I made a Luigi was meant to be a pizza from this link. Let's say it is a great pizza for a home oven. Patrick
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: PizzaEater101 on May 27, 2012, 01:40:20 PM
I don't know if I  ever ate luigi's but I did eat a lot of pizza in sd in the early 70s. My saying I made a Luigi was meant to be a pizza from this link. Let's say it is a great pizza for a home oven. Patrick

Nothing wrong with that. I just was not sure if you had pizza at Luigi because you are from Modesto and although Modesto is no where near SD, it is within the same state so I thought maybe you had been on vacation in SD and had some pizza at Luigi.  I'm glad that I started a discussion on Luigi because there is a lot of interest in it and many of the fine members here have helped in reverse engineering this great pizza pie.  I'm glad that people who never had this pizza pie have been able to try to make it at home and enjoy it.  I never had a Boardwalk pizza but thanks to Norma's discussion on this type of Mack Boardwalk Pie I was able to try to make one.  I say try because I think I messed up on it.  In the near future I'll try to make another one and maybe one day I'll be back East and get to try a real Mack pie and compare to how I made one at home out here in LA.

Thanks for your input and interest on this subject Patrick.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on May 27, 2012, 11:38:53 PM
James,

I'll take another stab at Luigi's pies in the coming weeks. I have to refine one other formula, albeit on a smaller scale, but I'd like to get Luigi's down. Even if it's just for myself.

Thanks a bunch for all the work you've done on this and in this thread!  :)
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: patnx2 on May 27, 2012, 11:52:43 PM
Tonights results for "Luigi'. One 24 hour and one 48. Both were very good but 48 hour was by far the better tasting crust. Both my wife and sister both said as good as anything they tasted since NY when we used to eat .15 cent slices. Both bakes were under 7 min with about 1.5 min, broiler. Thanks again to all for the help in getting me home. Patrick
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: PizzaEater101 on May 29, 2012, 06:26:40 PM
James,

I'll take another stab at Luigi's pies in the coming weeks. I have to refine one other formula, albeit on a smaller scale, but I'd like to get Luigi's down. Even if it's just for myself.

Thanks a bunch for all the work you've done on this and in this thread!  :)

Mike, thanks for all the work you have done on this thread too! We are all learning from each other.  I forgot if you ever made it to Luigi?  I know you are in Northern California so driving to Luigi in San Diego might be an 8 hour drive so it might not be something easily done and flying would cost a lot of money and staying in the hotel.  Now if you were to go to San Diego on vacation of course you'd go to Luigi. 

Once you refine the formula please post your formula and your results.  I as well as others will be interested in how it turns out. 


Thanks!
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: PizzaEater101 on May 29, 2012, 06:28:41 PM
Tonights results for "Luigi'. One 24 hour and one 48. Both were very good but 48 hour was by far the better tasting crust. Both my wife and sister both said as good as anything they tasted since NY when we used to eat .15 cent slices. Both bakes were under 7 min with about 1.5 min, broiler. Thanks again to all for the help in getting me home. Patrick

patnx2, that's great it turned out great. Next time you make some pizza post some pics if you will. We'd love to see the results. 

What formulation for the dough and sauce did you use?  What was your oven setup? 


Thanks

Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: patnx2 on May 30, 2012, 03:26:13 AM
I have an old xp windows and have trouble with posting pics. The pies I made were @65% hydration,power flour,yeast .55%  and two percent sugar and salt.I made 14 inch pizzas hand opened. Mixed in KA for 5 min and balled after thirty min. Into frig for 48 hours and 3 hours out at room temp before opening. Topped with 6n1 sauce out of can,wm-moss  (precious brand) and Italian sausage with sauteed mushrooms.
Baked in 550 oven, pre heated for one hour with stone 6 inch's from gas broiler. Used broiler for 1 to 2 mins. 7 min. bake.  Patrick
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: PizzaEater101 on May 30, 2012, 11:30:34 AM
I have an old xp windows and have trouble with posting pics. The pies I made were @65% hydration,power flour,yeast .55%  and two percent sugar and salt.I made 14 inch pizzas hand opened. Mixed in KA for 5 min and balled after thirty min. Into frig for 48 hours and 3 hours out at room temp before opening. Topped with 6n1 sauce out of can,wm-moss  (precious brand) and Italian sausage with sauteed mushrooms.
Baked in 550 oven, pre heated for one hour with stone 6 inch's from gas broiler. Used broiler for 1 to 2 mins. 7 min. bake.  Patrick

No worries, no pics.  I'm glad you had great results and thanks for posting your formulation for the dough and the sauce as well as the baking process.  I just got a new computer, now have Win 7 and a more powerful computer but for 9 years I was on XP on a slow computer.  I was able to post pics but most things were just too slow.  So I know where you are coming from.  Thanks for the info on your pie.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: PizzaEater101 on June 17, 2012, 02:45:26 PM
The pictures of the pizzas that I posted are of the meat lovers on the right and the left I thought was called the Crime Stopper but I read somewhere that might be called the white pizza.  It has marinara, meatballs, and ricotta cheese.  I should have been paying attention more to when I was eating it but I loved it so much my mind was not paying attention as much as my taste buds.  Can some one tell from the pic, do you think the sauce and the ricotta were placed on after the pizza was baked?  Maybe there is a layer of mozz that was baked on then after they put ricotta on and the sauce?  I mean the ricotta doesn't look like it really was baked but I might be wrong because I never worked with ricotta before and the sauce also didn't seem baked.


Thanks
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: PizzaEater101 on November 19, 2012, 11:15:35 PM
Given the numbers Peter has set forth in above's post I came up with a scaled down first version (25lb bag), using IDY instead of ADY, for a 17" Luigi clone with a hydration of 62%.

If there are any errors in it, please point them out.

25 lb bag clone / 2 x 17" pizza


Flour (100%):
Water (62%):
IDY (0.56437%):
Salt (1.984%):
Sugar (.22928%):
Total (164.77765%):
Single Ball:
552.48 g  |  19.49 oz | 1.22 lbs
342.53 g  |  12.08 oz | 0.76 lbs
3.12 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.04 tsp | 0.35 tbsp
10.96 g | 0.39 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.96 tsp | 0.65 tbsp
1.27 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.32 tsp | 0.11 tbsp
910.36 g | 32.11 oz | 2.01 lbs | TF = 0.070736
455.18 g | 16.06 oz | 1 lbs

32 lb bag clone / 2 x 17" pizza

Flour (100%):
Water (62%):
IDY (0.44092%):
Salt (1.5501%):
Sugar (0.17912%):
Total (164.17014%):
Single Ball:
554.52 g  |  19.56 oz | 1.22 lbs
343.8 g  |  12.13 oz | 0.76 lbs
2.44 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.81 tsp | 0.27 tbsp
8.6 g | 0.3 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.54 tsp | 0.51 tbsp
0.99 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.25 tsp | 0.08 tbsp
910.36 g | 32.11 oz | 2.01 lbs | TF = 0.070736
455.18 g | 16.06 oz | 1 lbs

50 lb bag clone / 2 x 17" pizza

Flour (100%):
Water (62%):
IDY (0.35412%):
Salt (0.9921%):
Sugar (0.11464%):
Total (163.46086%):
Single Ball:
556.93 g  |  19.64 oz | 1.23 lbs
345.29 g  |  12.18 oz | 0.76 lbs
1.97 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.65 tsp | 0.22 tbsp
5.53 g | 0.19 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.99 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
0.64 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.16 tsp | 0.05 tbsp
910.36 g | 32.11 oz | 2.01 lbs | TF = 0.070736
455.18 g | 16.06 oz | 1 lbs

All three formulas are without bowl residue compensation.

I know this is an old topic but I wanted to say that I used the formula 1 but upted the hydration from 62% to 63%. I really liked it a lot. I think I'll stick to this. I never tried it with 62% and probably just as good but I did like how 63% came out and I'll stick with it.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on November 26, 2012, 02:23:24 AM
Dude,

You are the only one who can actually nail it since you had the pizza a few times.

I have a feeling that with all the dissecting, reverse-engineering and all, it's a straight up simple formula. Especially if they have to do it on a daily basis.

Water, yeast, sugar, salt and flour.

Mixed, balled and rested maybe overnight or for only a few hours. Power flour is used and I think that's the key. We don't know much about this flour but two exceptional places here in SF use it and both said to achieve a light crust with this particular flour is the water temp. I don't know why, but that's what they told me.

I haven't made a pizza in a few months but will definitely take another stab at it because Luigi's looks promising. But so does Marcello's in SF.

Good stuff.  ;D
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: PizzaEater101 on November 26, 2012, 04:17:58 AM
Hi Mike, we are both up pretty late tonight I see.

Here is a couple of shots of the pie. I'm not so great at shaping so it's not as nice looking as Luigi and not as big too. This is about 14 to 15 inch.

Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: PizzaEater101 on November 26, 2012, 04:19:37 AM
Dude,

You are the only one who can actually nail it since you had the pizza a few times.

I have a feeling that with all the dissecting, reverse-engineering and all, it's a straight up simple formula. Especially if they have to do it on a daily basis.

Water, yeast, sugar, salt and flour.

Mixed, balled and rested maybe overnight or for only a few hours. Power flour is used and I think that's the key. We don't know much about this flour but two exceptional places here in SF use it and both said to achieve a light crust with this particular flour is the water temp. I don't know why, but that's what they told me.

I haven't made a pizza in a few months but will definitely take another stab at it because Luigi's looks promising. But so does Marcello's in SF.

Good stuff.  ;D

I think if I was able to shape it right and bake it right I think I could tell if it's the same as Luigi. If I was to get all variables right. It's a good pizza nevertheless.

What water temp are we talking about Mike?

I do know I love working with this Power Flour. It really is easy to work with.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on November 27, 2012, 06:35:31 PM
PE101,

Water temp is around 60-65įF.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: PizzaEater101 on November 27, 2012, 06:59:10 PM
PE101,

Water temp is around 60-65įF.

Thanks Mike. That's really important. I just use cold water but not sure the temp. Next time I am going to test it with a thermometer.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: PizzaEater101 on November 27, 2012, 07:11:34 PM
scott123,



ADY to use, taking into account the fact that the ADY is not rehydrated optimally when using room temperature water.


Peter


Tried to find out the answer to this at the Pizza Making Forum but didn't find the answer. I'm back on a Luigi kick so wondering what temp is best for ADY re-hydration. Thanks.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Chicago Bob on November 27, 2012, 07:21:25 PM
Tried to find out the answer to this at the Pizza Making Forum but didn't find the answer. I'm back on a Luigi kick so wondering what temp is best for ADY re-hydration. Thanks.
Most hot water heaters are factory set at 115 degrees...the "hot" tap water from your kitchen faucet works well for "blooming" ady yeast. If you feel this is a necessary step...

btw, blooming/proofing and simply dissolving ady are 2 different things...unless you suspect that your ady might be too old/out of date, there is no need to "proof" it (note:you will get faster proofing results by adding small amount of sugar to your 'lil proofing dish/bowl that is between 105-125degrees water temp) but this is all unnecessary really...you can dilute/hydrate ady in ANY temp. water you like and then add to your recipe if you don't want to simply add it dry into your dry mix. ;)
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: PizzaEater101 on November 27, 2012, 08:43:51 PM
Most hot water heaters are factory set at 115 degrees...the "hot" tap water from your kitchen faucet works well for "blooming" ady yeast. If you feel this is a necessary step...

btw, blooming/proofing and simply dissolving ady are 2 different things...unless you suspect that your ady might be too old/out of date, there is no need to "proof" it (note:you will get faster proofing results by adding small amount of sugar to your 'lil proofing dish/bowl that is between 105-125degrees water temp) but this is all unnecessary really...you can dilute/hydrate ady in ANY temp. water you like and then add to your recipe if you don't want to simply add it dry into your dry mix. ;)

Bob thanks for the info. I use IDY because when I learned how to make pizza from scratch I learned it by watching "Good Eats", Alton Brown's show. He suggested the use of IDY so I stuck with it. I learned so much more about pizza making the past few years from being at this forum though but Alton Brown got me started in it.

So you can hydrate ADY at any temp but I'll stick to IDY since I've been with it so long but I was just curious.  Mike (Essen) says for Power Flour the water should be between 60-65 F and I think IDY does well in that. But if I could use ADY at any temp then that would work at that temp too.

Even though IDY is made so you can add it to dry product, i.e, flour and ADY in water, I still just throw the IDY in the water and mix it up. I used to leave it in the dry stuff and then add the water but now just put in the water.

I wonder if the finished product taste different if you use ADY instead of IDY? Anyone know?


Thanks
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Chicago Bob on November 27, 2012, 08:48:18 PM
Bob thanks for the info. I use IDY because when I learned how to make pizza from scratch I learned it by watching "Good Eats", Alton Brown's show. He suggested the use of IDY so I stuck with it. I learned so much more about pizza making the past few years from being at this forum though but Alton Brown got me started in it.

So you can hydrate ADY at any temp but I'll stick to IDY since I've been with it so long but I was just curious.  Mike (Essen) says for Power Flour the water should be between 60-65 F and I think IDY does well in that. But if I could use ADY at any temp then that would work at that temp too.

Even though IDY is made so you can add it to dry product, i.e, flour and ADY in water, I still just throw the IDY in the water and mix it up. I used to leave it in the dry stuff and then add the water but now just put in the water.

I wonder if the finished product taste different if you use ADY instead of IDY? Anyone know?


Thanks
Good deal...the water temp member Essen is talking about is a guide to achieving a "final dough temp." that he is looking for in his particular dough/application.. ;)
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on November 27, 2012, 10:59:04 PM
So you can hydrate ADY at any temp but I'll stick to IDY since I've been with it so long but I was just curious.  Mike (Essen) says for Power Flour the water should be between 60-65 F and I think IDY does well in that. But if I could use ADY at any temp then that would work at that temp too.

The recommended way of rehydrating ADY is to use a portion of the formula water equal to about four to five times the weight of the ADY at a temperature of about 105 degrees F for about 10 minutes. The rehydrated ADY can then be added to the rest of the formula water. It is the temperature of the remaining formula water that is established to achieve the desired finished dough temperature.

I wonder if the finished product taste different if you use ADY instead of IDY? Anyone know?

For the amount of ADY that you would be using, I doubt that you could detect a difference. Tom Lehmann and the AIB have run tests using the different forms of yeast for otherwise identical doughs and found that they could not detect a difference in the finished product. However, if you use a lot of ADY, you might detect a yeasty flavor because ADY contains more dead cells than IDY used at a comparable rate.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: PizzaEater101 on November 28, 2012, 02:44:55 PM
Good deal...the water temp member Essen is talking about is a guide to achieving a "final dough temp." that he is looking for in his particular dough/application.. ;)

The water temp that I made my dough with was 64 F but not sure about the final dough temp. I'll have to check it when I finish kneading it. I am making some now but letting it rest before I knead it for five minutes. I'm sure the temp will be higher once it's done but when it's in the fridge it should be about that when it cold ferments. Thanks buddy.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: PizzaEater101 on November 28, 2012, 02:45:45 PM

The recommended way of rehydrating ADY is to use a portion of the formula water equal to about four to five times the weight of the ADY at a temperature of about 105 degrees F for about 10 minutes. The rehydrated ADY can then be added to the rest of the formula water. It is the temperature of the remaining formula water that is established to achieve the desired finished dough temperature.

For the amount of ADY that you would be using, I doubt that you could detect a difference. Tom Lehmann and the AIB have run tests using the different forms of yeast for otherwise identical doughs and found that they could not detect a difference in the finished product. However, if you use a lot of ADY, you might detect a yeasty flavor because ADY contains more dead cells than IDY used at a comparable rate.

Peter

Peter thanks for the info. Since it doesn't taste different then I'll just stick to my IDY since I have a lot of it and have been working with it all these years.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: PizzaEater101 on December 01, 2012, 03:17:10 PM
I tried to make an Al Capone. I think the AC is just pepperoni, sausage and meatball ground up. 

I made meatballs the other day. The sausage is Italian Spaghetti Factory brand. Pepperoni was big diameter style so I had to cut it into pieces or I'd have big round slices on it. Moz cheese, preshredded whole milk from Costco Business Center. I normally would use block moz and shred it myself but I liked the way this stuff melts and doesn't breakdown like when I use the kind I shred myself.

For some reason when I made dough the result taste like sour dough and this time it taste like sour dough more than other times.

It's 14 inch. I did it on the screen because normally I just put it on the peel and lay it on the stone but I did that on one of them and then the toppings kept on rolling off when I tested it to see if it would slide off the peel easily and then I tried to take it off the peel and it messed up the whole thing so I had to do another one but this time I did it on the screen. After it baked enough to be firm then I took it off the screen and put it on the stone by itself and it worked out pretty good.

About a 5 minute bake time. I can get 4 minute without the screen but I have to let it go another minute when I use the screen and put back on the stone.  Other than tasting too sour dough like I thought it was really good.

Check it out.

What do you think?

Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Jackie Tran on December 01, 2012, 03:37:29 PM
looking good PE.  I love using meatballs on pizza..one of my fav toppings. 
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: PizzaEater101 on December 01, 2012, 03:39:23 PM
looking good PE.  I love using meatballs on pizza..one of my fav toppings. 

Thanks Jackie, I am getting better at this.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: jsaras on December 15, 2012, 01:17:19 PM
I just finished reading this twisted novel, Whew! :-D. 

I'm confused about the amount of sugar. One poster wrote that he used 2 percent, but his number in the calculator was 0.2%, which is significantly different. 

Similarly, the yeast amounts and dough handling procedures also vary significantly.  Is there a semi-consensus on what the definitive version is? 

Worms are leaving the can....   
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on December 15, 2012, 04:47:38 PM
jsaras,

At Reply 177 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg151870.html#msg151870  Peter set-forth 4 Luigiís clone dough formulations to try and they all had sugar in the formulations with different amounts.  I donít think Peter ever posted which formulation he thought might be best to try.

Maybe you could just pick a Luigiís clone pizza you like on this thread and use what formulation and methods that member used.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: jsaras on December 15, 2012, 04:58:53 PM
Hi Norma,

I saw Peter's spreadsheet numbers for sugar amount, which are 2/10ths of a percent or lower.  However, several other members have stated that they used 2 percent, which is 10 times higher.  I know that Peter is very precise with his numbers, but I'm unclear as to whether or not the later permutations evolved to a much higher sugar level, or if others were less precise with their language and just mentally dropped a decimal point.

Thanks,
Jonas
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on December 15, 2012, 05:06:47 PM
Jonas,

I really don't know what other members did.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: patnx2 on December 16, 2012, 03:15:49 AM
I have been using recipe mentioned in Peter's post 177,#3. 65 %,2sugar,2 oil (my addition) and pend. unbl. flour. I have been very happy with the results and have mostly stuck to this formula for several months. I only bake pizza once a week, in a gas oven set at 550 degrees heated for 1 hour. Bake time about 5 min. and 1.5 min. under broiler.
Happy holidalys to all and thanks for feeding my addition. Patrick from Modesto
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: jsaras on December 16, 2012, 10:35:00 AM
I've re-read some of this thread.  I see that when crust coloration became an issue with Pendleton Power Flour the sugar in the formula increased from 0.2% to 2 percent. 

Cheers,
Jonas
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on December 16, 2012, 11:02:47 AM

Jonas,

Peter modified the #1 Luigiís formulation for me when I got the Power flour to try at 594 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg158788.html#msg158788 and reduced the amount of yeast for a one day cold ferment.  If you are interested and didnít see the final pizza and what I did that post is at 598 and on next few posts.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg159318.html#msg159318  If you look in my post you can see I think I should have maybe left the pizza in the oven longer.  I used 0.22928% sugar in that formulation to try and coax a little sugar out of the dough over only a one-day cold ferment to provide more curst color. 

You can also read Peterís post at Reply 608 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg159361.html#msg159361

I didnít do any more experiments for a Luigiís clone pizza after that one, because I wasnĎt sure where to go from there.  I could have tried a screen for better crust coloration, or did tried other methods, but I didnít.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: jsaras on December 18, 2012, 12:00:33 PM
I gave the Pizzeria Luigi clone a try last night.  63% water, IDY 0.375%, Salt 2%, Sugar 0.222928%, TF = 0.075.

I used white Kamut Khorosan flour, which has been my flour of choice for the last several months (14.64% protein, 60% carbs, 11.3% fiber).  I baked this on steel in my in-laws under-powered electric oven for 6 minutes.  The crust was very easy to stretch to 14-inches and I could have easily stretched this even more.  I also made the sauce variation mentioned that uses Classico tomatoes.  I used fresh basil, but I may have used a touch too much as my scale cannot weigh items less than 1 gram.

Also note that the strange spot on the pizza is the cheeseless area set aside for my lactose intolerant wife.  Overall, everyone liked this a lot.  This was easy to make, though I think that the Lehmann preferment formulation gives a little better flavor.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Essen1 on December 21, 2012, 08:03:21 PM
I tried to make an Al Capone. I think the AC is just pepperoni, sausage and meatball ground up. 

I made meatballs the other day. The sausage is Italian Spaghetti Factory brand. Pepperoni was big diameter style so I had to cut it into pieces or I'd have big round slices on it. Moz cheese, preshredded whole milk from Costco Business Center. I normally would use block moz and shred it myself but I liked the way this stuff melts and doesn't breakdown like when I use the kind I shred myself.

For some reason when I made dough the result taste like sour dough and this time it taste like sour dough more than other times.

It's 14 inch. I did it on the screen because normally I just put it on the peel and lay it on the stone but I did that on one of them and then the toppings kept on rolling off when I tested it to see if it would slide off the peel easily and then I tried to take it off the peel and it messed up the whole thing so I had to do another one but this time I did it on the screen. After it baked enough to be firm then I took it off the screen and put it on the stone by itself and it worked out pretty good.

About a 5 minute bake time. I can get 4 minute without the screen but I have to let it go another minute when I use the screen and put back on the stone.  Other than tasting too sour dough like I thought it was really good.

Check it out.

What do you think?



PE101,

The pies looks great! Man, you're getting real close, bro.  ;D
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on August 18, 2013, 07:33:37 AM
If anyone is interested, this is Pizzeria Luigi's facebook page.  https://www.facebook.com/pages/Pizzeria-Luigi/250989848123? (https://www.facebook.com/pages/Pizzeria-Luigi/250989848123?) hc_location=stream This is also Pizzeria Luigi's photos.  https://www.facebook.com/pages/Pizzeria-Luigi/250989848123?id=250989848123&sk=photos_stream (https://www.facebook.com/pages/Pizzeria-Luigi/250989848123?id=250989848123&sk=photos_stream)   On August 8, 2013 Pizzeria Luigi posted ďNot surprisingly, New Yorkers are up in arms about being ranked fourth in the TripAdvisor Pizza RankingsĒ and on August 7, 2013 there were two posts about that article. On August 5, 2013 they posted to make sure to watch the SanDiego edition of DDD on the Food Network including the segment on Pizzeria Luigi's.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: Pete-zza on August 18, 2013, 09:18:01 AM
Norma,

That is actually one of the better and more entertaining Facebook pages that I have visited. I usually put Facebook at the bottom of the list when I am engaged in reverse engineering and cloning someone's pizza because most Facebook pages do not reveal much that will help me in what I am trying to do. For the same reason, I do not spend much time with Yelp and similar review organizations. I am not a member of Facebook or Twitter or any other such organizations but they are all advertising based so that means that they have to find ways to sell people even more things. It seems that just about everyone that I come into contact with these days, either in real life or online or in other media (print publications, radio and TV), is trying to sell me something. Outside of my family and close friends, everyone is a sales person. It is perhaps good for my health, economic and otherwise, that I can't join Facebook, and Twitter. This forum is one of the few places that I can visit and spend quiet and quality time and not be deluged with advertising trying to sell me something.

Peter 
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on August 18, 2013, 11:22:40 AM
Norma,

That is actually one of the better and more entertaining Facebook pages that I have visited. I usually put Facebook at the bottom of the list when I am engaged in reverse engineering and cloning someone's pizza because most Facebook pages do not reveal much that will help me in what I am trying to do. For the same reason, I do not spend much time with Yelp and similar review organizations. I am not a member of Facebook or Twitter or any other such organizations but they are all advertising based so that means that they have to find ways to sell people even more things. It seems that just about everyone that I come into contact with these days, either in real life or online or in other media (print publications, radio and TV), is trying to sell me something. Outside of my family and close friends, everyone is a sales person. It is perhaps good for my health, economic and otherwise, that I can't join Facebook, and Twitter. This forum is one of the few places that I can visit and spend quiet and quality time and not be deluged with advertising trying to sell me something.

Peter

Peter,

I usually push the like button if there is a pizzeria that I am interested in facebook.  I enjoy watching what those pizzerias post.  I usually don't learn a lot from what they post, but at least I can see what they are posting if I catch their posts.  None of those pizzerias pizzeria posts have helped me in trying one of your formulations to try and clone their pizzas, but at least I can see what I am aiming for.  Some of those pizzerias posts make me chuckle.  I don't know how Pizzeria Luigi started just showing up on my facebook page so much in the last month.  I know I did like Pizzeria Luigi's facebook page a long while ago, but nothing showed up until recently.

Lol, about you being bombarded with something to purchase at almost every angle and perhaps it is better for your health to just spend time here on the forum. 

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: PizzaEater101 on August 18, 2013, 05:22:16 PM
If anyone is interested, this is Pizzeria Luigi's facebook page.  https://www.facebook.com/pages/Pizzeria-Luigi/250989848123? (https://www.facebook.com/pages/Pizzeria-Luigi/250989848123?) hc_location=stream This is also Pizzeria Luigi's photos.  https://www.facebook.com/pages/Pizzeria-Luigi/250989848123?id=250989848123&sk=photos_stream (https://www.facebook.com/pages/Pizzeria-Luigi/250989848123?id=250989848123&sk=photos_stream)   On August 8, 2013 Pizzeria Luigi posted ďNot surprisingly, New Yorkers are up in arms about being ranked fourth in the TripAdvisor Pizza RankingsĒ and on August 7, 2013 there were two posts about that article. On August 5, 2013 they posted to make sure to watch the SanDiego edition of DDD on the Food Network including the segment on Pizzeria Luigi's.

Norma

I have been meaning to go to San Diego because I want some Pizzeria Luigi but was apathitic of late about driving two hours.  I don't know how many hours or minutes it is for you Norma to go from Pennsylvania to NY or if you go much but I just have been lazy to drive. San Diego is nice and it's like a world away, so while we are still getting hot weather I'd like to go to SD to cool off and eat some pizza.  Thanks for the info on TripAdvisor and on the Facebook page of Pizzeria Luigi.
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on August 18, 2013, 07:55:14 PM
I have been meaning to go to San Diego because I want some Pizzeria Luigi but was apathitic of late about driving two hours.  I don't know how many hours or minutes it is for you Norma to go from Pennsylvania to NY or if you go much but I just have been lazy to drive. San Diego is nice and it's like a world away, so while we are still getting hot weather I'd like to go to SD to cool off and eat some pizza.  Thanks for the info on TripAdvisor and on the Facebook page of Pizzeria Luigi.

James,

I know the feeling about driving.  :-D  My daughter and I went to Philly yesterday (9th St. Italian Market and not for pizza, but for some pepperoni bread), but that drive seemed like it took forever (about a little over 4 1/2 hrs back and forth).  NYC takes me about 2 1/2 hrs. to get there if traffic is good, but if traffic is bad it can take a lot longer. 

Hope you get to Pizzeria Luigi's again and tell us what their pizzas taste like.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on November 16, 2013, 07:48:44 AM
Another look into Luigi's kitchen.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: PizzaEater101 on November 16, 2013, 07:25:11 PM
Norma, did you take that picture? Did you go to San Diego for vacation and stop in to Luigi's?
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: norma427 on November 16, 2013, 08:02:22 PM
Norma, did you take that picture? Did you go to San Diego for vacation and stop in to Luigi's?

James,

No, I did not go to Pizzeria Luigi and take that photo.  I copied that photo off of Pizzeria Luigi facebook page.
 
https://www.facebook.com/pizzerialuigi (https://www.facebook.com/pizzerialuigi)

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzeria Luigi in San Diego, CA
Post by: PizzaEater101 on November 17, 2013, 11:47:25 AM
James,

No, I did not go to Pizzeria Luigi and take that photo.  I copied that photo off of Pizzeria Luigi facebook page.
 
https://www.facebook.com/pizzerialuigi (https://www.facebook.com/pizzerialuigi)

Norma

I see. I should visit their FB page but have not in a long time. Great pic. Thanks for posting.