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### Author Topic: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”  (Read 232145 times)

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#### norma427

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##### Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #360 on: August 26, 2013, 05:52:05 PM »
Norma,

Irrespective of the size of pizza you and Trenton Bill were served at De Lorenzo/Sloan, assuming that the two dough balls you purchased are for 14" and 16" pizzas, which are the two pizza sizes that Rick De Lorenzo mentioned to you recently at his Facebook page, the corresponding thickness factors are as follows:

11.2 ounces (14"): TF = 11.2 (3.14159 x 7 x 7) = 0.07276
16.7 ounces (16"): TF = 16.7/(3.14159 x 8 x 8) = 0.08306

In actual practice, unless one uses a scale to weigh the dough balls, their weights can vary from one dough ball to another, as can the sizes of the pizzas made from the dough balls. For example, if 11.2 ounces of dough was used to make your 13" pizza, and assuming no shrinkage during baking, the thickness factor would be 11.2/(3.14159 x 6.5 x 6.5) = 0.08438.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for converting the weights of the dough balls from the De Lorenzo's at Sloan into thickness factors.    I would think that was a little too thick compared to the pizza we had at De Lorenzo's at Robbinsville.

Norma
« Last Edit: September 03, 2013, 06:07:59 PM by Pete-zza »

#### norma427

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##### Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #361 on: August 26, 2013, 05:57:22 PM »
Norma, in using your recipe I was able to turn out a great pizza in the Blackstone oven.  I cooked for my parents, and I believe they preferred this pizza to the Emergency Lehmann dough.

You've also converted me to applying sauce after the cheese.  Something about that just works for me.

I'd like to try this recipe with a sourdough starter, but I'm not really clear how I would convert over with any degree of reliability.

DenaliPete

DenaliPete,

I am glad when using my recipe you were able to turn out a great pizza in the BS.  I am also glad you like applying the sauce after the cheese.

About using a sourdough starter you might look at Craig's method.  If you need help finding that let me know.  How soon do you want to make your pizza after you make the dough and are you going to control temperature ferment or cold temperature ferment.

Norma

#### norma427

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##### Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #362 on: August 26, 2013, 06:03:49 PM »
Norma,

You could use the smaller dough ball but trim it back to 10 ounces and make a 14" pizza out of it. That might be a good test of the crust thickness, that is, to see if it is closer to the thickness of the crust you had at De Lorenzo/Robbinsville.

Peter

Peter,

I can cut the dough ball back to 10 ounces to try and make a De Lorenzo's pizza tomorrow.  Do you have any idea of how much of cheese and combinations of Red Pack and 6-in-1s that I might need to add as dressings.  Also do you have any idea of the methods for the bake?

I took some semolina out of a bag and also some light roasted cornmeal to show the colors of the two of them side by side.  My semolina really isn't the regular kind of semolina though, but it can be seen how similar the colors are when they are blended in the second photo.

I also received my sample bag of flour today and the recipes from GM.  I guess it is too late to try and make a De Lorenzo's dough this evening for early tomorrow night.

Norma

#### norma427

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##### Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #363 on: August 26, 2013, 06:10:29 PM »
Norma,

A typical bag of Grande shredded cheese is as shown below. The contents of the bag may vary, as well as the product designation, but the overall appearance is pretty much the same for all of the Grande shredded mozzarella cheeses and blends.

Peter

Peter,

I don't recall all that writing on the two bags of shredded cheese the pieman opened at De Lorenzo's in Robbinsville.  I only recall some writing on the center of the plastic bag.  Thanks for the photo.  Maybe I can look at Google images to see if there are photos of the Sorrento shredded part-skim mozzarella in a plastic bag.

Norma

#### norma427

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##### Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #364 on: August 26, 2013, 06:21:48 PM »
We need to crack the code!!!!

Now that Norma has the dough balls...hopefully she can reverse engineer!!!

I find it curious the notion they mixed red pack + 6-in-1...Is this confirmed?

Hobbs,

I really can't tell you how I found out but I did see more Red Packs than 6-in-1's at Robbinsville.

Norma

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#### norma427

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##### Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #365 on: August 26, 2013, 06:25:42 PM »

My job is to keep us focused and on track. That is what I do. But, that said, there might be a benefit to Norma conducting a hydration bake test on a sample of the De Lorenzo Sloan dough to see if we can calculate the hydration of the Sloan dough. There is no way of knowing, of course, buy that might shed some light on what De Lorenzo/Robbinsville is doing in the way of hydration. Norma could also conduct a gluten mass test but I believe we already know what flour De Lorenzo/Sloan is using.

Peter

Peter,

If you want me do a hydration test on part of the big dough ball I can do that later this week.  I also could conduct a gluten mass test if you think it would be valuable in any way.

Norma

#### Pete-zza

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##### Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #366 on: August 26, 2013, 06:26:46 PM »
Norma,

You should use your best judgment on the amounts of cheese and sauce to use with the Sloan dough. You might look at the Robbinsville photos to get a feel as to the amounts of cheese and sauce to use, and also on a relative basis. But, in any event, the amount of cheese should be used sparingly.

As for the tomatoes, I would use two parts of the RedPack whole tomatoes in purée to one part 6-in-1 ground tomatoes with extra heavy purée. These are the canned tomatoes that you showed in photos in an earlier post.

Since it does not appear that De Lorenzo/Robbinsville used the top oven/bottom oven bake method, or vice versa, I would use your deck oven at work as you normally would but with a bake time along the lines mentioned in your visit to De Lorenzo/Sloan. I think you want the bake time to be long enough to get the charring of the crust without turning the pizza into a cracker. So, you may have to carefully monitor the bake temperature.

Congratulation on getting the Best Bakers flour from General Mills. Once you report back on your results with the Sloan clone pizza, hopefully I will be in a better position to come up with a Robbinsville clone dough formulation for you to try with the new flour.

Peter
« Last Edit: August 26, 2013, 07:21:13 PM by Pete-zza »

#### Pete-zza

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##### Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #367 on: August 26, 2013, 06:32:47 PM »
I don't recall all that writing on the two bags of shredded cheese the pieman opened at De Lorenzo's in Robbinsville.  I only recall some writing on the center of the plastic bag.  Thanks for the photo.  Maybe I can look at Google images to see if there are photos of the Sorrento shredded part-skim mozzarella in a plastic bag.
Norma,

I was a step ahead of you. Earlier today, I did a search to identify foodservice versions of the Sorrento mozzarella cheese, including looking at Google Images, and came up empty. However, the parent company of Sorrento is fond of using the color red in the packaging materials for many of its retail bramds of its mozzarella cheeses.

Peter

#### Pete-zza

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##### Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #368 on: August 26, 2013, 06:40:41 PM »
If you want me do a hydration test on part of the big dough ball I can do that later this week.  I also could conduct a gluten mass test if you think it would be valuable in any way.
Norma,

A hydration bake test might be useful, if only to give us a general idea as to what De Lorenzo/Sloan might be using for a hydration value.

Since we have a good idea as to the flour that De Lorenzo/Sloan is using, there is no need to do a gluten mass test. However, if you would like to do the test to see how the GM Best Bakers flour stacks up gluten wise with other flours in the general protein category, such as the KABF, then the gluten mass test might be useful.

Peter
« Last Edit: August 26, 2013, 07:21:53 PM by Pete-zza »

#### norma427

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##### Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #369 on: August 26, 2013, 07:05:25 PM »
Norma,

You should use your best judgment on the amounts of cheese and sauce to use with the Sloan dough. You might look at the Robbinsville photos to get a feel as to the amounts of cheese and sauce to use, and also on a relative basis. But, in any event, the amount of cheese should be used sparingly.

As for the tomatoes, I would use two parts of the RedPack whole tomatoes in purée to one part 6-in-1 ground tomatoes with extra heavy purée. These are the canned tomatoes that you showed in photos in an earlier post.

Since it does not appear that De Lorenzo/Robbinsville used the top oven/bottom oven bake method, or vice versa, I would use your deck oven at work as you normally would but with a bake time along the lines mentioned in your visit to De Lorenzo/Sloan. I think you want the bake time to be long enough to get the charring of the crust without turning the pizza into a cracker. So, you may have to carefully monitor the bake temperature.

Congratulation on getting the Bakers Best flour from General Mills. Once you report back on your results with the Sloan clone pizza, hopefully I will be in a better position to come up with a Robbinsville clone dough formulation for you to try with the new flour.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for your thoughts on what I should use as dressing and how I should bake.  The dough balls and skins did look the same to me at both De Lorenzo's locations and the methods use to prepared the dough for a pizza also looked the same.  I know looks can be decieving though.

The bake might be a little tricky, because De Lorenzo's ovens at both locations have higher head spaces than I do.

My bottom deck oven ranges from about 525-545 degrees F.

I am anxious to try the new flour out.

BTW, I did see the same flour use to make the dough balls at the Sloan's location and it didn't appear that there was any semolina or cornmeal in those dough boxes.  The dough boxes were near where one would go into the kitchen, and I saw that is where they got my dough balls.  Those dough boxes were a little to far for me to really tell though if there might have been any cornmeal or semolina in the bottom, but my dough balls I purchased didn't show any signs of cornmeal or semolina on the bottom of them.  There also was other brown dough balls right beside the other dough balls.

Norma

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#### Pete-zza

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##### Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #370 on: August 26, 2013, 07:10:03 PM »
There also was other brown dough balls right beside the other dough balls.
Norma,

What are brown dough balls? Did you mean 'blown' dough balls?

Peter

#### norma427

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##### Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #371 on: August 26, 2013, 07:12:20 PM »
Norma,

I was a step ahead of you. Earlier today, I did a search to identify foodservice versions of the Sorrento mozzarella cheese, including looking at Google Images, and came up empty. However, the parent company of Sorrento is fond of using the color red in the packaging materials for many of its retail bramds of its mozzarella cheeses.

Peter

Peter,

You are always one step ahead of me.

If you look down in this link it gives the code numbers for the Sorrento mozzarellas shred.  Maybe you or I could call them from the number at the bottom of the link to see if we could get a photo and some other information about their Low Moisture Part Skim Mozzarella shred. http://www.lactalisculinary.com/cheese/?productId=1569#shreds

Norma

#### norma427

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##### Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #372 on: August 26, 2013, 07:19:40 PM »
Norma,

What are brown dough balls? Did you mean 'blown' dough balls?

Peter

Peter,

If you look at the menu I posted at Reply 332 (8th photo down) http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg275425.html#msg275425 and squint your eyes it can be seen De Lorenzo's on Sloan offers Gluten free and Wheat Crusts in addition to their regular crusts.  I asked what the brown dough balls were and the man told me wheat dough balls.

Norma

#### norma427

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##### Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #373 on: August 26, 2013, 07:25:44 PM »
Norma,

A hydration bake test might be useful, if only to give us a general idea as to what De Lorenzo/Sloan might be using for a hydration value.

Since we have a good idea as to the flour that De Lorenzo/Sloan is using, there is no need to do a gluten mass test. However, if you would like to do the test to see how the GM Best Bakers flour stacks up gluten wise with other flours in the general protein category, such as the KABF, then the gluten mass test might be useful.

Peter

Peter,

I will see about doing the hydration test and the gluten mass test later this week.  I need to go to the other threads where I did those tests to refresh my memory first.

Norma

#### Pete-zza

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##### Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #374 on: August 26, 2013, 07:32:01 PM »
Norma,

I forgot to ask you about salt in the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville crust. I had asked about salt levels before in the Trenton thread but came away with the impression that the De Lorenzo/Hudson crusts were not overly salty. Can you give me your perception of the Robbinsville salt quantity?

Peter

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#### norma427

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##### Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #375 on: August 26, 2013, 08:00:49 PM »
Norma,

I forgot to ask you about salt in the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville crust. I had asked about salt levels before in the Trenton thread but came away with the impression that the De Lorenzo/Hudson crusts were not overly salty. Can you give me your perception of the Robbinsville salt quantity?

Peter

Peter,

To me and Bill the De Lorenzo's crust at Robbinsville seemed normal in the taste of salt.  The crust was not overly salty.  I would say about the normal amount of Kosher salt at 1.75%, but then I really don't know and they might be using regular salt.

I have one other question I wanted to ask you.  Should I start defrosting the frozen dough ball tonight, or let it go until tomorrow morning?  I froze them right away when we got to Bills home after we weighed the dough balls.  I put the both dough balls in individual plastic bags and used a Styrofoam container with ice in it to bring the dough balls and cheeses home, so the dough balls did stay frozen until I got home.

Norma
« Last Edit: August 26, 2013, 08:03:01 PM by norma427 »

#### Pete-zza

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##### Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #376 on: August 26, 2013, 08:31:51 PM »
Norma,

If you go back to the original Robbinsville photos, you will see salt containers in the regular tube-like shape. An example is the photo at http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/pages/100_3158_JPG.htm . I would imagine that the same type of salt is used for the dough as for other purposes.

How and when you defrost the frozen dough ball will depend on when you plan to use the dough ball at market. Frozen dough balls can be defrosted in the refrigerator overnight for use the next day, or for several hours at ambient temperature. The actual defrost time at ambient temperature will, of course, depend on that temperature. Of course, you can also use a combination of defrost time in the refrigerator and at ambient temperature.

Peter

#### norma427

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##### Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #377 on: August 26, 2013, 09:31:52 PM »
Norma,

If you go back to the original Robbinsville photos, you will see salt containers in the regular tube-like shape. An example is the photo at http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/pages/100_3158_JPG.htm . I would imagine that the same type of salt is used for the dough as for other purposes.

How and when you defrost the frozen dough ball will depend on when you plan to use the dough ball at market. Frozen dough balls can be defrosted in the refrigerator overnight for use the next day, or for several hours at ambient temperature. The actual defrost time at ambient temperature will, of course, depend on that temperature. Of course, you can also use a combination of defrost time in the refrigerator and at ambient temperature.

Peter

Peter,

I believe you are right that they use the same type of salt in their dough like the regular tube-like containers you gave the link to.  I looked at the photos quickly again.  I really didn't see much, if any cornmeal or semolina like I saw at the Sloan location.

Thanks for your thoughts on what to do with the frozen dough ball.  I know if I let a frozen dough ball out at market it doesn't take too long to defrost.  Tomorrow is supposed to be in the high 80's, so I might wait until tomorrow morning to take the frozen dough ball out of the freezer and then put it in the pizza prep fridge until I am ready to use it.  I probably won't be able to use the dough ball to make a pizza until later in the day tomorrow.

I didn't post this before, but I did ask our waiter at the Robbinsville location if they sell dough balls and he said he doesn't think so.  I should have asked one of the piemen before I left if they sell dough balls.  I did tell the piemen that the tomato pie was delicious.

Norma

#### DenaliPete

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##### Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #378 on: August 27, 2013, 12:32:01 PM »
Question for you Norma,

Do you always add your oil after all the flour has been incorporated?

The reason I ask is that I seem to recall the last time I made this coming up with a fairly dry final dough that I may have had to add some water to (I can't quite recall).  Perhaps I just needed to adjust my water for the environment or something.

I guess primarily I'm curious why oil seems to go in at the end of most formulations that I see.

I am attempting to make this recipe with sourdough starter today using Craig's predictive model as you recommended.  Hoping to have dough balls ready to bake in 24 hours, we shall see.

Pete

#### DenaliPete

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##### Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #379 on: August 27, 2013, 12:44:05 PM »
I am also curious if you ball your dough right away or do a bulk ferment first.  I apologize if I'm flooding you with questions.

Pete

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