Pizza Making Forum

Reference, Questions and Help => Dough Clinic => Topic started by: timber on June 05, 2019, 07:53:01 AM

Title: AVPN recipe
Post by: timber on June 05, 2019, 07:53:01 AM
I have been trying various recipes for my wood fired for 5 years.  I have used Tony's and Forkish's recipes.  A lot of the recipes are hydrated for home ovens.  I just tried the AVPN recipe-58%,.2% and .11%.  The mix/knead time seemed very long 10+20.  The dough was hard to work.  I am looking for a one day dough-I think.  I am thinking about going to 61% and maybe increasing the yeast.  I am using 00 and sea salt.  Any help would be greatly appreciated
Title: Re: AVPN recipe
Post by: Pete-zza on June 05, 2019, 10:25:02 AM
timber,

Can you tell us what kind of mixer you are using when following the AVPN recipe?

Peter
Title: Re: AVPN recipe
Post by: The Dough Doctor on June 05, 2019, 10:42:27 AM
I'm confused by your dough formula. 58% = dough absorption; 0.2% = (compressed yeast?); 0.11% = ? Salt should be in the 1.75 to 3.25% range and yeast (as compressed yeast) in the 0.175 to 0.2% range.
Are you planning to do your mixing by hand or machine for your same day dough? Do you want to stay close to the AVPN concept or are you just looking for a good same day dough for your wood fired oven?
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor
Title: Re: AVPN recipe
Post by: timber on June 05, 2019, 06:00:51 PM
 You are too kind.  I'm new to bakers percentages and now I showed it to all.  As I understand the AVPN recipe water is 58%, salt 3% and yeast .17%.  I am not hung up on AVPN as I am looking for a really good one day recipe.  And I could also use a 2 day.  I am planning on mixing my dough by hand.  My mixer is too small for our batches which are usually 13-17 pizzas and I also believe it's too fast.
Thanks for your help.
Title: Re: AVPN recipe
Post by: The Dough Doctor on June 05, 2019, 10:19:07 PM
Here is a one day pizza dough formula that we used in our Woodstone wood fired oven.
Flour: 100%
Salt: 2.25%
CY: 0.75%
Water: 58%

Put water (75F) in bowl, reserve a small amount for the salt, add the CY and stir to suspend the yeast in the water. Add 1/2 of the flour and stir in. Allow to rest for 30-minutes, add the salt to the reserved water and add it to the dough along with the remainder of the flour. Mix until free of lumps and allow to ferment for 1-hour, turn out of the bowl onto a floured bench and knead until smooth (about 10-minutes). Scale into desired weight pieces, form into balls, wipe the dough balls lightly with oil and place into individual plastic bread bags, pull the bag snug to the dough ball and twist the open end to form a pony tail, tuck the pony tail under the dough ball as you place it into the fridge, allow to cold ferment for at least 6-hours but can go longer. To use, remove from fridge and allow to set at room temperature for 2 to 3-hours before turning the dough ball(s) out of the bag onto a floured surface, open by hand into skin for immediate use. Once you begin opening the dough balls they will remain good to use for about 2-hours.
To make this int a 2-day dough just reduce the yeast to 0.5%. Manage the dough in the same manner except hold it for 48-hours in the cooler before use. In my opinion, a 2-day dough is MUCH better than a 1-day dough.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor
Title: Re: AVPN recipe
Post by: timber on June 06, 2019, 06:49:55 AM
Thank you so much.  I am a builder and the rest of my family were going to be the chefs but..... 
Anyway I am not familiar with compressed yeast (I guess it's also called fresh).  Until I locate it can you tell me how to modify the recipe with instant dry yeast or is that not recommended?  I have read online but am not convinced I've got it nailed.  As a non chef I always thought yeast was yeast!
Title: Re: AVPN recipe
Post by: timber on June 06, 2019, 07:38:42 AM
One more question as I'm working through your recipe.  You say that the CY should be .75% but above you said it should be in the range of .175% to .2%.  Did you mean .175%?
Title: Re: AVPN recipe
Post by: The Dough Doctor on June 06, 2019, 09:59:25 AM
CY is indeed the same animal as "fresh yeast" I used that as the yeast type since you were referencing the AVPN dough formulation which requires the use of only CY (compressed yeast)/fresh yeast/wet yeast. To use IDY (instant dry yeast) use 40% as much IDY as CY. This figures out to 0.3% IDY to replace 0.75% CY. As for your questions on the yeast levels the amounts you are referencing are for the AVPN type dough formulation, NOT the dough formulation that I provided for you. If you plan to use the supplied dough formulation used the yeast amounts cited in the dough formulation with the conversion to IDY if that's the type of yeast you wish to use.
Please note that there are two different yeast levels cited, one is for a same day dough while the other is for a 2-day (48-hour) dough.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor
Title: Re: AVPN recipe
Post by: Pete-zza on June 06, 2019, 10:11:07 AM
For the record, this is the last AVPN document that I am aware of:

https://www.pizzanapoletana.org/public/pdf/disciplinare%202008%20UK.pdf

As can be seen at the bottom of the above document, the recommended mixer is a fork or spiral mixer. The 10 plus 20 minute mix times apply to those mixers only. One of our members, who is from the Naples area, commented on the mix times in this post:

Reply 116 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=1298.msg13378#msg13378

Peter
Title: Re: AVPN recipe
Post by: timber on June 06, 2019, 02:17:38 PM
Thanks to both of you.  I was amazed to find fresh yeast in the bakery department of our local grocery store (I live in a small town).   $4.50 for one pound which seemed like a steal.
 I guess there is no reason to not use CY for all pizza.

I heard back from AVPN yesterday and they said the mixing times went wrong in the translation and should be 5 mix and 15 knead.  But I'm going to go with the Dough Doctor.
Title: Re: AVPN recipe
Post by: Rolls on June 06, 2019, 02:50:11 PM
Thanks to both of you.  I was amazed to find fresh yeast in the bakery department of our local grocery store (I live in a small town).   $4.50 for one pound which seemed like a steal. I guess there is no reason to not use CY for all pizza.

Keep in mind that fresh yeast is very perishable and doesn't have a very long shelf life.  For the home baker, IDY and ADY are much more convenient and economical, with no compromises in flavour in the final product.


Rolls
Title: Re: AVPN recipe
Post by: timber on June 06, 2019, 05:18:43 PM
How long does fresh yeast last in the fridge?  I'm in Northern MN in the summer and we go crazy with pizza for the three summer months and then we shut it down.  So if it lasts 3 months I'm good.
Title: Re: AVPN recipe
Post by: The Dough Doctor on June 06, 2019, 05:54:15 PM
No way! If, and that's a BIG "if" the yeast is fresh and hasn't been temperature abused in any way, expect something more like 3-weeks shelf life. With ADY you will get 6 to 12-months and with IDY up to 12-months, assuming proper handling.
Where abouts in Northern MN? Close to Park Rapids or D.L.?
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor
Title: Re: AVPN recipe
Post by: Rolls on June 06, 2019, 06:07:42 PM
How long does fresh yeast last in the fridge?  I'm in Northern MN in the summer and we go crazy with pizza for the three summer months and then we shut it down.  So if it lasts 3 months I'm good.

The package of fresh yeast should be stamped with a "use by " date.  Once it's opened, it begins to deteriorate quickly and you should probably use it within a month, and that's being very generous.  It needs to be maintained at constant fridge temps and should be wrapped properly according to the manufacturer's instructions.  For more consistent results, dry yeast of some sort is the way to go, IMO.

Here's a good piece by the Dough Doctor from Pizza Today: https://www.pizzatoday.com/departments/in-the-kitchen/yeast-performance/



Rolls   
Title: Re: AVPN recipe
Post by: QwertyJuan on June 06, 2019, 06:51:20 PM
I have to agree... here at work, we've settled on IDY... we've tried it all.... ADY, sourdough and CY. IDY is THE most consistent yeast we've tried. We use SAF-instant.
Title: Re: AVPN recipe
Post by: timber on June 06, 2019, 09:48:13 PM
3 weeks!  I better get cooking if I'm going to use a pound.  It's fresh because it came in something like 5 one pound packages and they sold me one of those.  Is there an easy way to test to see if it's still good?
I'm in Grand Rapids-1.5 hours east of Park Rapids.  Detroit Lakes has some prairie and ag and we're basically north woods.  I'm old and FL suits my clothes better in the winter.
Thanks to all.
Title: Re: AVPN recipe
Post by: The Dough Doctor on June 07, 2019, 12:35:45 AM
Not really. you're kinda at the mercy of your supplier unless you can see a manufactured/packaged date on the package. If there is no packaging well????. Old time bakers used to take an egg size piece of dough immediately after mixing and form it into a ball then toss it into a bucket of warm water, if it floats in a few minutes the yeast is still alive but quality still unknown. Outside of laboratory instrumentation, that's about the best you can hope for. By the way, color and aroma are not good indicators of quality either. The one thing that does indicate sub-par quality in C.Y. is a slimy appearance and feel to the C.Y. wet and/or sticky are OK but not slimy.
My son has a place on Boot Lake, about 20-miles east of Park Rapids.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor
Title: Re: AVPN recipe
Post by: timber on June 07, 2019, 06:33:48 AM
I'm on Pokegama Lake just south of GR.  If you get up this way I'll let you cook me a pizza.
Title: Re: AVPN recipe
Post by: timber on June 07, 2019, 11:52:26 AM
Two more questions.  Water at 75 degrees for CY.  Does that increase for IDY?

Also is there a way to tweak this so no refrigeration is required?  We have a proofing box that is handy for large gatherings and won't fit in the fridge.
Title: Re: AVPN recipe
Post by: The Dough Doctor on June 07, 2019, 02:37:01 PM
If you are asking if you can suspend C.Y. in 75F water, the answer is yes. The temperature of the dough water is used to control the finished/mixed dough temperature.
Can you adjust the dough formulation so no refrigeration is required, yes you can. I'd start by adjusting the C.Y. level to about 0.15%, target a finished dough temperature of 80F (about 70F water temperature), scale and ball immediately after mixing and allow to ferment at ambient until the dough can easily be opened into skins. I can't say how long this will take as the time will vary with the strength of the flour as well as the ambient temperature. Time to roll up the sleeves and begin experimenting.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor
Title: Re: AVPN recipe
Post by: timber on June 07, 2019, 03:30:35 PM
Thank you.  Pizza tomorrow.
Title: Re: AVPN recipe
Post by: timber on September 01, 2019, 08:00:15 AM
A belated Thank You to the Dough Doctor.  I have been making pizza all summer and for various reasons we have been using a different recipe each time.  Some were good some not.  Your 2 day dough was great, the best of all and the one we will continue to use.  Thank you very much.
 
We leave here for the winter and will be using a home oven for our pizza for the winter.  Can this recipe be used or tweaked for the home oven?
Title: Re: AVPN recipe
Post by: Heikjo on September 01, 2019, 08:22:06 AM
I prefer IDY over CY, but for the sake of curiosity, can you extend the usability of CY by freezing it?
Title: AVPN recipe
Post by: DoouBall on September 01, 2019, 11:17:12 AM
I have frozen a pound of fresh yeast that was purchased at its freshest from a local pizza shop (thanks StateOfMind!) I wrapped it tightly in plastic wrap and then again in aluminum foil to keep air and light out.

When I went to defrost it, I noticed it smells different and performs slower than the original. It appears to create more slack doughs, similar to using ADY. Iím guessing this is due to glutathione from dead yeast.

So I would say you can do it, but I am thinking itís not worth it because performance becomes unpredictable. It probably will no longer conform to fermentation charts anymore. My opinion is that IDY is better than frozen and defrosted CY.
Title: Re: AVPN recipe
Post by: QwertyJuan on September 01, 2019, 12:24:35 PM
I have frozen a pound of fresh yeast that was purchased at its freshest from a local pizza shop (thanks StateOfMind!) I wrapped it tightly in plastic wrap and then again in aluminum foil to keep air and light out.

When I went to defrost it, I noticed it smells different and performs slower than the original. It appears to create more slack doughs, similar to using ADY. Iím guessing this is due to glutathione from dead yeast.

So I would say you can do it, but I am thinking itís not worth it because performance becomes unpredictable. It probably will no longer conform to fermentation charts anymore. My opinion is that IDY is better than frozen and defrosted CY.

100% agreed. I am with Tom on this one... use IDY... it works remarkably well, and I've yet to have an issue with it. Works 100% everytime.
Title: Re: AVPN recipe
Post by: DoouBall on September 01, 2019, 03:18:09 PM
May I just add on this note that I've spoken to 3 Italian pro pizzaiolos recently about dry vs fresh yeast. The same suggestion was made by all - when moving from Fresh Yeast to Dry Yeast, whether it's IDY or ADY, they recommend using a ratio of 50% rather than 30% or 40% if you're looking to make an airy crust. They explained to me that Fresh Yeast, being ready to go, generates a bit more puff than dry yeast, and increasing the ratio helps to make them equivalent.
Title: Re: AVPN recipe
Post by: QwertyJuan on September 01, 2019, 06:15:12 PM
May I just add on this note that I've spoken to 3 Italian pro pizzaiolos recently about dry vs fresh yeast. The same suggestion was made by all - when moving from Fresh Yeast to Dry Yeast, whether it's IDY or ADY, they recommend using a ratio of 50% rather than 30% or 40% if you're looking to make an airy crust. They explained to me that Fresh Yeast, being ready to go, generates a bit more puff than dry yeast, and increasing the ratio helps to make them equivalent.

Not sure what you mean by ratio, but I have played with IDY for the last 4+ years. and .45% seems to be the optimal amount of yeast. For me and my formula at least. ;)
Title: Re: AVPN recipe
Post by: HansB on September 01, 2019, 06:42:23 PM
Not sure what you mean by ratio, but I have played with IDY for the last 4+ years. and .45% seems to be the optimal amount of yeast. For me and my formula at least. ;)

When converting CY amounts to IDY most recommend using 30-40%. If using 1g CY, use .3 to .4g IDY.
Title: Re: AVPN recipe
Post by: QwertyJuan on September 01, 2019, 10:40:19 PM
When converting CY amounts to IDY most recommend using 30-40%. If using 1g CY, use .3 to .4g IDY.

Gotcha!!
Title: Re: AVPN recipe
Post by: DoouBall on September 01, 2019, 11:07:02 PM
Not sure what you mean by ratio, but I have played with IDY for the last 4+ years. and .45% seems to be the optimal amount of yeast. For me and my formula at least. ;)

QwertyJuan, when I say ratio, I mean the conversion ratio between making an equivalent amount of different types of yeast.

For example the ratio recommended to me was 1 part IDY : 2 parts CY.

Hans, most recommend what they read elsewhere on the internet, and most of this is coming from breadmakers and yeast manufacturers, not pizza makers, let alone pizza pros. I found the advice given to me more valuable as it came from 3 pizza pros in Italy. Even packages of instant yeast often advise 1 part IDY : 3 parts CY as a conversion. I can see how this would be good both for simplicity, and because it sounds better for marketing purposes. From a cost-savings perspective, "You only need to use one third!" sounds a whole lot better than "You only need to use half!" The original recipes written by these 3 pros were using fresh yeast. I told them that it's hard to get fresh yeast in the US, and I'd like to convert to IDY. They told me if I want to use IDY, I need to cut the weight in half, not 30% or 40% to achieve the same level of puffiness in the pizza.

I'm sure if you're making NY pizza, it probably wouldn't matter if you're using 1:3 or 1:2 conversion ratios. But if you're trying to make pizza canotto, pizza in pala or pizza in teglia, the extra bit of yeast can help and certainly won't hurt, as the bulk of the fermentation is happening in the fridge.
Title: Re: AVPN recipe
Post by: jsaras on September 02, 2019, 12:23:16 AM
Arenít they the same organism?  It doesnít make sense to mix CY and IDY. 
Title: Re: AVPN recipe
Post by: DoouBall on September 02, 2019, 12:28:57 AM
Arenít they the same organism?  It doesnít make sense to mix CY and IDY.

I guess I wasnít very clear. Weíre talking about conversion of quantity from CY to IDY for substitution, not for mixing them together. In other words, using IDY instead of CY when working with a recipe originally designed for CY.
Title: Re: AVPN recipe
Post by: Jackitup on September 02, 2019, 01:46:07 AM
For the record, storing bulk yeast in pint sized glass  jars in the fridge and/or freezer VASTLY extends its usability! Pictured is 2 jars, 1 in the freezer that is vacuum sealed and the other not vacuum sealed in the fridge. The one in the fridge is still as active and yeasty smelling as the day I put it in there on April of '16! Much more bang for your buck with IDY stored like this! I have documented this in the past where a 1 pound bag lasted me 4ish years. It's been about 3 months since I've used it but plan to this week. I will post the results here! Hands down, the cheapest, best way to buy and store yeast, been doing it this way for about 10 years!
Title: Re: AVPN recipe
Post by: Jackitup on September 02, 2019, 01:49:16 AM
Ps......
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=42767.msg428086#msg428086
Title: Re: AVPN recipe
Post by: Brent-r on September 02, 2019, 10:24:58 AM
An idea to try ... even though I gave up on it a long time ago

Measure out chunks of cake yeast to sizes you like to use and press them into an ice cube tray.
Freeze them up then seal them individually.  We did not have a FoodSaver back then but that might have
helped.  We screwed around with that and gave up and bought SAF IDY.

Yeast is so inexpensive.  No math here buy I would guess only 5 -10 cents a pizza.

ADY or IDY  is the only way to go unless you use tons of yeast in a commercial kitchen .... and even then it is questionable to use cake yeast.... IMHO
Title: Re: AVPN recipe
Post by: TXCraig1 on September 02, 2019, 11:15:19 AM
The right amount of yeast to use is the amount that works for you.
Title: Re: AVPN recipe
Post by: DoouBall on September 02, 2019, 03:44:37 PM
The right amount of yeast to use is the amount that works for you.

Agreed! How do you always find a way to say so much with so few words?
Title: Re: AVPN recipe
Post by: QwertyJuan on September 02, 2019, 09:47:39 PM
The right amount of yeast to use is the amount that works for you.

Exactamundo!!  ;D
Title: Re: AVPN recipe
Post by: Pete-zza on September 03, 2019, 09:09:13 AM
Agreed! How do you always find a way to say so much with so few words?
Brevity is the soul of wit ;D
  Shakespeare