Pizza Making Forum

General Topics => Ingredients & Resources => Dough Ingredients => Topic started by: norma427 on March 25, 2011, 10:41:10 PM

Title: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on March 25, 2011, 10:41:10 PM
I have a question if I want to try a homemade dough conditioner (enhancer) in dough.  I want to make a dough conditioner out of lecithin granules, Fruit Fresh (which is Vitiamin C) and high heat Non-Fat dry milk powder.  How do I go about calculating how much to add to dough and how do I enter them under the expanded calculating tool? Can I just make a mixture to keep in the refrigerator and then add them to a dough or doughs to try?  I do have all 3 ingredients for a homemade dough conditioner.

I canít seem to find enough information by doing a forum search on how all three ingredients can be combined in amounts. Any help would be appreciated. 

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: Pete-zza on March 26, 2011, 10:29:00 AM
Norma,

Several years ago I did some research on dough conditioners and found several different formulations, including one like you mentioned. This morning, to refresh my memory I did a Google search and turned up what appears to be a good site on this subject at http://concasse.blogspot.com/2009/04/natural-dough-conditioner-enhancer.html. I think I would use the information at that site to do what you want to do. That website also has a link to another website, at http://www.breadmachinedigest.com/, that has a link to dough enhancers also. Those links might also be useful to you.

What you want to do is strictly a math exercise. First, you want to determine how much of each of the three ingredients (lecithin, Vitamin C and dry milk powder) is needed for a cup of flour. In the case where an ingredient is related to a loaf of bread, as appears to be the case with the Vitamin C, you will have to decide how many cups of flour are used in a typical loaf of bread and prorate the amount of Vitamin C needed for just a single cup of flour. For example, if a typical loaf of bread uses 4 cups of flour, the Vitamin C would be 1/32 t. (1/4 times 1/8 t.). For that small an amount, you may need to use a mini-measuring spoon ("smidgen") to measure it out. For a benchmark value of the weight of a cup of flour, I think I would use 4.25 ounces. Once you determine the combined weights of the three ingredients on the basis of one cup of flour, you should be able to calculate the baker's percent.

With respect to the expanded dough calculating tool, there is no way of using the baker's percent for your dough enhancer since there is no field in the tool for such an enhancer. However, you can usurp one of the unused fields and enter the baker's percent that you calculate as described above in that field. That will give you the weight of enhancer to use in any given recipe. However, you will have to then convert that weight to a volume. The conversion factor you will want to use is the weight of one teaspoon of the enhancer. If you make just a basic amount for one cup of flour, you can weigh one level teaspoon of it. That will not weigh much so you may find that you need a special scale to weigh it in order to get an accurate weight measurement. For example, I estimate that one teaspoon of your enhancer will weigh around 6 1/4 grams. As an alternative to using a scale, you can use the Nutrition Facts for the particular brands of lecithin and dry milk powder you plan to use. But once you have the proper measurement, you can convert the weight of the enhancer provided by the expanded dough calculating tool to a volume measurement.

In due course, you may find it useful to scale up the amount of enhancer to a much larger quantity. But the amount to use in any instance will be easy to calculate once you have the appropriate baker's percent.

Good luck.

Peter

Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on March 26, 2011, 01:37:35 PM
Norma,

Several years ago I did some research on dough conditioners and found several different formulations, including one like you mentioned. This morning, to refresh my memory I did a Google search and turned up what appears to be a good site on this subject at http://concasse.blogspot.com/2009/04/natural-dough-conditioner-enhancer.html. I think I would use the information at that site to do what you want to do. That website also has a link to another website, at http://www.breadmachinedigest.com/, that has a link to dough enhancers also. Those links might also be useful to you.

What you want to do is strictly a math exercise. First, you want to determine how much of each of the three ingredients (lecithin, Vitamin C and dry milk powder) is needed for a cup of flour. In the case where an ingredient is related to a loaf of bread, as appears to be the case with the Vitamin C, you will have to decide how many cups of flour are used in a typical loaf of bread and prorate the amount of Vitamin C needed for just a single cup of flour. For example, if a typical loaf of bread uses 4 cups of flour, the Vitamin C would be 1/32 t. (1/4 times 1/8 t.). For that small an amount, you may need to use a mini-measuring spoon ("smidgen") to measure it out. For a benchmark value of the weight of a cup of flour, I think I would use 4.25 ounces. Once you determine the combined weights of the three ingredients on the basis of one cup of flour, you should be able to calculate the baker's percent.

With respect to the expanded dough calculating tool, there is no way of using the baker's percent for your dough enhancer since there is no field in the tool for such an enhancer. However, you can usurp one of the unused fields and enter the baker's percent that you calculate as described above in that field. That will give you the weight of enhancer to use in any given recipe. However, you will have to then convert that weight to a volume. The conversion factor you will want to use is the weight of one teaspoon of the enhancer. If you make just a basic amount for one cup of flour, you can weigh one level teaspoon of it. That will not weigh much so you may find that you need a special scale to weigh it in order to get an accurate weight measurement. For example, I estimate that one teaspoon of your enhancer will weigh around 6 1/4 grams. As an alternative to using a scale, you can use the Nutrition Facts for the particular brands of lecithin and dry milk powder you plan to use. But once you have the proper measurement, you can convert the weight of the enhancer provided by the expanded dough calculating tool to a volume measurement.

In due course, you may find it useful to scale up the amount of enhancer to a much larger quantity. But the amount to use in any instance will be easy to calculate once you have the appropriate baker's percent.

Good luck.

Peter



Peter,

Thank you for referencing the blog and the website that contains the link about dough enhancers.  I thought I would like to try out a homemade dough enhancer to see what would happen to dough.  From the first blog you referenced it also says that lady uses unflavored gelatin. I also have some of that.  I see in the link under the bread machine digest that there is a recipe for Super Bread Dough Enhancer that can be stored in the freezer. http://www.breadmachinedigest.com/recipes/enhancer-recipes/super-bread-fresh-dough-enhancer.php I donít have all those ingredients but will start with what I have.  Since I had the leftover high heat dried milk powder from doing the other experiments,  I wanted to try that out in combination with other ingredients to see what might happen.  I thought the homemade dough enhancer would include some kind of math exercise, but I think you have explained enough for me to try.  I also have some vital wheat gluten.  Do you think I should include that in the mix also, if I try a lower protein flour for my dough?  I never heard of using unflavored gelatin in any doughs before.  Did you ever try a mix of dough enhancers before?  I did a forum search and only found where you used some of the ingredients I have.

Thanks for explaining everything.  I will see if I can figure out what to do.

Picture of some of my dough enhancers.

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: Pete-zza on March 26, 2011, 02:23:10 PM
Norma,

It is entirely up to you if you want to try adding other ingredients to your dough enhancer. However, you would use the same procedures (i.e., base each of the other ingredients relative to a cup of flour, calculate the baker's percent, and weigh one teaspoon of the final blend for conversion purposes).

My recollection is that I made and used a small amount of a dough enhancer using the Ellen's Kitchen blend given at http://www.ellenskitchen.com/recipebox/breadbuilder.html. I never used it again so apparently I was not impressed enough with the results to warrant using it again. I also tried using lecithin separately but did not explore using that ingredient further either. However, for fun I think it is worth playing around with dough enhancers, and you might even learn something from using them. And if you like the results you get better than what you are now achieving, so much the better.  

Peter
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on March 26, 2011, 06:15:11 PM

My recollection is that I made and used a small amount of a dough enhancer using the Ellen's Kitchen blend given at http://www.ellenskitchen.com/recipebox/breadbuilder.html. I never used it again so apparently I was not impressed enough with the results to warrant using it again. I also tried using lecithin separately but did not explore using that ingredient further either. However, for fun I think it is worth playing around with dough enhancers, and you might even learn something from using them. And if you like the results you get better than what you are now achieving, so much the better.  

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for posting you did try Ellenís kitchen blend, but you werenít too impressed. I see Ellen's Homemade Yeast Dough Relaxer is said to be popular for pizza crust, foccacia, etc. and it is supposed to act by slightly disabling the gluten protein in the wheat.  Ellen also said yeasted doughs will rise at a slower rate when made with relaxer. Ellen said the yeasted bread will have a big "oven spring".  The big ďoven springĒ is interesting to me.

I think I will have fun playing around with dough enhancers and also might learn something whether good or bad.  I will try to do the conversions in the next week to try in a pizza dough.

Lecithin did interest me before, because at one time we did buy lecithin to put into caramel popcorn we made.  It did make the caramel corn kernels separate much easier, but after about a year we stopped buying it because it was too expensive. 

Thanks for your help!

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: Pete-zza on March 26, 2011, 07:17:02 PM
Norma,

The tricky part of putting together a dough enhancer is to decide which ingredients should go into it and for what purpose. For example, I noticed that several of the possible ingredients are intended to prevent mold and to prolong life by delaying staling. These are not problems with pizza but might be with bread. So, you might want to first try it on one of Chad's Tartine breads. Besides, I'd like to hear the howls of protest and claims of sacrilege from Chau, Bill/SFNM and John, among others  :-D. Also, if Chad finds out, he will start singing this song, venting in his best French that he picked up when he was in France: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0-bbSSaNFE. BTW, the book in the song is his Tartine book  :-D.

Peter
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on March 26, 2011, 08:18:50 PM
Norma,

The tricky part of putting together a dough enhancer is to decide which ingredients should go into it and for what purpose. For example, I noticed that several of the possible ingredients are intended to prevent mold and to prolong life by delaying staling. These are not problems with pizza but might be with bread. So, you might want to first try it on one of Chad's Tartine breads. Besides, I'd like to hear the howls of protest and claims of sacrilege from Chau, Bill/SFNM and John, among others  :-D. Also, if Chad finds out, he will start singing this song, venting in his best French that he picked up when he was in France: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0-bbSSaNFE. BTW, the book in the song is his Tartine book  :-D.

Peter

Peter,

If you think the tricky part of trying to make a dough enhancer is to try to decide what ingredients to put in, how do you think I feel about trying to decide on the amounts and what ingredients to put in, plus all the math part.  I might be at this dough enhancer experiment for a long while.  :-D I even have some more of those ingredients here at home I could try.

I might try the dough enhancer on the Tartine bread if I get everything figured out.  I would like to see what other members like Chau, Bill, John and others would say if I got fantastic oven spring.  :angel: At least then they wouldnít be laughing about all my crazy experiments. 

I would really be laughing if Chad would sing the song in his best French.  How did you decide the book in the song is his Tartine book?  I really like that song. In the video you referenced it looks like exploding yeast cells. That was the same song you referenced for what Tom Lehmann would think after you changed his Lehmann dough formula so many times.   :-D

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: Pete-zza on March 26, 2011, 08:31:39 PM
Norma,

Once you decide what ingredients you want to use in your blend, I can help you with the math if we can get all of the numbers and brands in line.

On the book matter, I just thought the words in the song and the Tartine book went together. Plus the French part.

Peter

Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: Pete-zza on March 26, 2011, 08:49:27 PM
That was the same song you referenced for what Tom Lehmann would think after you changed his Lehmann dough formula so many times.   :-D

Norma,

Despite all of the things that you and I did to Tom's "song", he apparently was impressed by all of the things you told him about the popularity of his NY style recipe. Recently, in response to a recipe request from a poster at the PMQ Think Tank, he posted at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=10153&p=69655&hilit=#p69655 as follows:

Take a look in the RECIPE BANK. I've got an excellent New York style thin crust formula and procedure posted there that has an excellent track record.

Over the years, Tom would refer people to the Recipe Bank for his NY style recipe but I can't ever recall his praising it as he did above or using the term "excellent", which I would have detected given all of the things I did with that recipe and that you extended with your own modifications. That happened not long after your exchanges with Tom. He would perhaps applaud your use of dough enhancers since he frequently recommends them (like PZ-44, l-cysteine, gels, vital wheat gluten, azodicarbonamide, dead yeast, etc.) to pizza professionals.

Peter


Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on March 26, 2011, 09:29:22 PM
Peter,

Before I decide everything I want to include in the dough enchancer do you think I should write to Tom Lehmann to see what he thinks I should include in the blend to try, since he does recommend other kinds of dough enchancers other than why I am planning on using?  I could tell him what ingredients I have on hand at home.  He might be able to help me decide on what ingredients to try in the dough enchancer if he isnít too busy. 

I am glad to hear that Tom Lehmann said he had an ďexcellentĒ  New York thin crust formula and procedure posted at the Recipe Bank.  Tom Lehmann is a very nice man.  I am also glad Tom didnít get upset with us for changing his ďsongĒ,  so many times.  Tom has helped me many times.

I agree the words in the song and the Tartine book do go well together.

Whew..what a relief that you will help me with the math.  On of these days I do need to get better with my math. 

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: Pete-zza on March 26, 2011, 09:53:02 PM
Before I decide everything I want to include in the dough enhancer do you think I should write to Tom Lehmann to see what he thinks I should include in the blend to try, since he does recommend other kinds of dough enhancers other than why I am planning on using?  I could tell him what ingredients I have on hand at home.  He might be able to help me decide on what ingredients to try in the dough enhancer if he isnít too busy. 

Norma,

I am always curious to know what Tom thinks or knows about different matters. So, I think it might be useful to ask him for advice. You might approach it both from a personal/at-home perspective and from a professionals perspective at market. He might have a different answer for both scenarios. Usually, he recommends chemical solutions where pizza operators are having problems that they need solved, not solutions because they would be interesting or informative. You may also find that he is not familiar with home remedies such as you have in mind, although I am sure that he knows what most of the ingredients are for and how they work in a dough.

Peter
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on March 26, 2011, 10:32:54 PM
Norma,

I am always curious to know what Tom thinks or knows about different matters. So, I think it might be useful to ask him for advice. You might approach it both from a personal/at-home perspective and from a professionals perspective at market. He might have a different answer for both scenarios. Usually, he recommends chemical solutions where pizza operators are having problems that they need solved, not solutions because they would be interesting or informative. You may also find that he is not familiar with home remedies such as you have in mind, although I am sure that he knows what most of the ingredients are for and how they work in a dough.

Peter

Peter,

I will ask Tom what he thinks both from a personal at home advice and also for advice on a my market stand level.  I am also curious what Tom Lehmann would have to say if he has time to reply.  I will wait and see if Tom Lehmann answers.

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on April 01, 2011, 05:40:54 PM

I received a reply from Tom Lehmann this morning about the questions I had about trying to make  ďdough enhancersĒ to try.  This was Tomís reply.

You say "dough enhancer" in just what way are you proposing to enhance the dough? What is wrong with it making it in need of "enhancement"? Do you see where I'm going with this? Dough "additives" of any kind are added to address a specific problem. Think of it as medicine for the dough. Why do we take medicine? To make us feel better, but before we can decide what type of medicine to take, we must first determine what is ailing us.

I still want to move forward and try to make a ďdough enhancerĒ.  These are the ingredients I have on hand at home.

vital wheat gluten
Fruit Fresh (which has mostly Vitamin C and a little Dextrose)
lecithin granules
diastatic malt powder
unflavored gelatin
bakerís grade non-fat dried milk

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: TXCraig1 on April 01, 2011, 08:51:27 PM
Norma, like Tom, I'm still a little unclear what exactly you want to improve with a dough enhancer?

In addition to the ingridients mentioned, I think it would be interesting to experiment with other reducing agents such as amino acids like L-cysteine or peptides such as gluthathione (contains cysteine). I think both are widely available as supplements - cysteine for sure.  They should reduce mixing time, improve extensibility, and react with the sugars in a Maillard reaction to improve flavor and color.

Vitamin C is also a reducing agent in the absence of oxygen (breaks down gluten), and an oxidizing agent (build up gluten - like potassium bromate) in the presence of oxygen.

I've never tried either. I just started thinking about it after writing my thoughts this morning to a post asking for a alternative to bromate.

Craig
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: Pete-zza on April 01, 2011, 10:56:05 PM
Norma,

You might want to take one each of the dough conditioners listed in the SAF document at
http://www.lallemand.com/BakerYeastNA/eng/PDFs/LBU%20PDF%20FILES/1_13DOUG.PDF and make an all-purpose dough enhancer  :-D. I also recall from your Ultra-Thin experiments that you were crazy about L-cysteine when I told you that an SAF technician person I spoke with said that L-cysteine was made from human hair  ;D.

Peter
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: TXCraig1 on April 01, 2011, 11:07:05 PM
Yep. Human hair and poultry feathers.

Actually, more and more is produced via baterial fermentation.

CL
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on April 01, 2011, 11:49:59 PM
Norma, like Tom, I'm still a little unclear what exactly you want to improve with a dough enhancer?

In addition to the ingridients mentioned, I think it would be interesting to experiment with other reducing agents such as amino acids like L-cysteine or peptides such as gluthathione (contains cysteine). I think both are widely available as supplements - cysteine for sure.  They should reduce mixing time, improve extensibility, and react with the sugars in a Maillard reaction to improve flavor and color.

Vitamin C is also a reducing agent in the absence of oxygen (breaks down gluten), and an oxidizing agent (build up gluten - like potassium bromate) in the presence of oxygen.

I've never tried either. I just started thinking about it after writing my thoughts this morning to a post asking for a alternative to bromate.

Craig
Yep. Human hair and poultry feathers.
Actually, more and more is produced via baterial fermentation.

CL

Craig,

Almost anything I do, I donít do in a conventional way.  :-\ That is why I thought about doing an experiment with homemade ďdough enhancersĒ.  I could just go out and buy something conventional to try, but I usually go about trying things the hard way first.  I really donít wonít to improve any particular dough, I just want to see what would happen if a homemade ďdough enchancerĒ is tried.  I have tried bromated flours many times and really liked them. 

I read different posts about using Vitamin C in dough and that maybe improving dough. 

No more human hair and poultry feathers, since Tom Lehmann did tell me L-cysteine didnít include them anymore.  ;D

Maybe you want to try the experiment with more traditional "dough conditioners".  ;D

Norma

Norma,

You might want to take one each of the dough conditioners listed in the SAF document at
http://www.lallemand.com/BakerYeastNA/eng/PDFs/LBU%20PDF%20FILES/1_13DOUG.PDF and make an all-purpose dough enhancer  :-D. I also recall from your Ultra-Thin experiments that you were crazy about L-cysteine when I told you that an SAF technician person I spoke with said that L-cysteine was made from human hair  ;D.

Peter


Peter,

When I looked at the link your referenced for the SAF document and saw all those ingredients listed for a all-purpose dough conditioner, I thought wow, that is a lot of ingredients.  :o

I have no idea how a ďdough conditionerĒ or ďdough enhancerĒ should be tried, or even what amounts of each ingredient might go together.  I remember when Tom Lehmann told me about using L-cysteine in the Ultra-thin experiments and what I thought about the human hair at Reply 296  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11044.msg102400.html#msg102400 Yuck!   :-D

I might need to reevaluate the purpose for each ingredient in the formula and identify those that may interact with each other.  I have no idea in what amounts each ingredient should be added.  Do you have any idea of how I should start this experiment?  Do I need the brands of ingredients I have at home? 

Norma

Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: scott r on April 02, 2011, 10:35:17 AM
norma, I too have gone down this path of trying bread enhancers and dough conditioners in my pizza dough.  My goal was to try to achieve effects that were close to what bromate does, without the potential health risk.    Ultimately I have ended up not preferring to use any of them, but I think it will be a fun experiment for you and I would love to hear your findings and descriptions of what they do.   This was many years ago for me, and honestly I have forgotten what some of these things end up doing to the crust of a pizza dough.   A few things I do remember.  

I found that different ingredients seemed to do different things at different baking temperatures.  
I found that even tiny amounts of most of these conditioners seemed to make big changes in the dough, so recommended dosages for bread often produced too much "effect" for pizza.  

My suggestion is to try one at a time and see what you like, then make your blend from there.

I remember one of my least favorite enhancers was lecthin, which actually took away from the textures I associate with a good pizza dough.   If I remember correctly it made it more dense, and almost a little soggy.

Bakers grade non fat dry milk was one of the best ones.   It actually did produce a bromate-like lightness, but at the expense of also adding a very crispy texture and a little extra browning.   This is one of the things that I actually liked way better for my high temp 2-3 minute bake pizzas, which can sometimes need a little help in the crisp department.   For normal 550 temp pizzas it added too much crisp for me.    The milk definitely adds a very nice flavor.   I was using tiny amounts....less than 1% and I could still taste the flavor enhancement.  

Ascorbic acid didn't seem to do much, maybe a little added lightness, but nothing like what bromate can do.   At one point I tried using quite a bit of it, as I wasn't really seeing much from it in recommended dosages.  When I did try the higher percentages it just made the dough gummy.  

Vital wheat gluten added a bit of air to the dough and allowed it to rise more, but the expense of making the pizza chewy, which is not what I am after.  I have no problem achieving chewy by screwing up the mix or the proof  ;D

Diastatic malt powder added browning for sure, and I liked how it made a flour without it like caputo more easily adapted to normal temp ovens.  The change in texture did not seem to be dramatic.  

I have never played around with gelatin, but I am interested in your findings.   Also, another ingredient that comes up in these bread enhancers from time to time is ground powdered ginger, if you want to add that to your list.

I hope I didn't discourage you, as I would love to hear back what your take on all of this is.   Thanks norma, and have fun experimenting!  


Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: Pete-zza on April 02, 2011, 12:07:43 PM
Norma,

I think there are several ways to go on this.

My first choice would be the one that scott r mentioned, that is, testing out each of your ingredients individually. To do this, I would use the identical dough formulation (but for the added ingredient) and I would try to make the identical amount of dough or something close to it and manage each dough the same way. I would try to make the pizzas as identically as possible, down to using the same bake protocol, either at home or at market, but not both, and I would use the same types and amounts of sauce and cheese by weight (I don't think that I would add any toppings). In your case, since you know the basic Lehmann NY style dough recipe intimately, and it only has a few basic ingredients, you might use that recipe for your tests. You might also find that you will have to conduct several tests for each ingredient in order to give you several samples from which to detect the effects of the ingredient on the finished crust. As you can see, this method can be a tedious and time consuming one.

An alternative approach would be to try to jumpstart the above process and use an existing goody bag blend of dough enhancers, possibly a concoction such as discussed in one of the articles referenced earlier in this thread. That way, you can see if there is a noticeable improvement in the crusts made from doughs containing a specific set of ingredients. Again, you might use the basic Lehmann dough for the tests. If you don't see any improvement, or any improvement that is worth the effort, then that might be the end of it. If you do see marked improvement, then you can either use that concoction or modify it based on what you get in the way of results.

A third approach would be to make your own concoction based on the ingredients you have on hand. This approach might make the most sense if you started out with the first method mentioned above, since you would customize your blend based on the results from testing individual ingredients.

Whichever way you go, you will want to use the proper amount for your pizza doughs, heeding scott r's advice on not to use too much of the dough enhancers. I would use the approach described earlier to calculate how much of each ingredient to use, based on a benchmark of one cup of flour. Since the quantities I saw in the articles were for bread, you might scale down the baker's percent to use for pizza dough, at least until you get an idea as to the efficacy of your ingredients.

Another point to keep in mind is that many conditioners added to dough are for mass production purposes, such as to shorten knead times, improve machinability of dough, improve dough molding characteristics, etc., none of which necessarily apply to pizza dough in a home environment.

Once you decide how you want to proceed and if you feel you need help with the math, let me know.

Peter
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on April 02, 2011, 04:03:45 PM
scott r,

I am glad you have also tried making ďdough replacersĒ before in pizza dough.  :)  I can understand different ingredients seem to do different thing at different baking temperatures and I also can understand small amounts can make bigger differences in pizza dough than bread.  I already tried bakerís grade non-fat milk in some of my experiments and seemed to get better results with using bakerís grade dairy whey.  I will be interested in trying gelatin to see what happens with that ingredient.  Your idea of adding powdered ginger to the list sounds good.  I will get some this coming week.  

It will be interesting to see what happens.  Thanks for your post and ideas. You didnít discourage me, I am always interested in hearing of members that tired something different before.  Those kind of posts help me or other member decide whether they even want to go down that path.

Norma


Peter,

I will think all what you posted about all the options you have given in addition to scott rís post to try to make a homemade ďdough enhancer.Ē  I also think it would be a good idea to try out 2 regular Lehmann doughs balls no matter what decisions I make.

In the meantime, until next week, I thought after you posted all those dough conditioners in the SAF document about something I already have at home.  I found newborn baby kittens in my back yard Wednesday evening.  I guess the mother stray cat was to young and didnít want the babies.  I thought they were dead, but my daughter was in the house and I picked one up and took it in.  It wasnít moving or breathing because it was around 42 degrees F in our area.  The kitten was still soft though.  We started to massage the cold kitten and after awhile, it move one paw.  We then started working on it to see if we could revive it.  There also was one other kitten outside, but it really looked dead and was purple.  I then went outside to pick it up and also bought it.  My daughter said that kitten is really dead and I put it in the trash temporarily, until we worked on the other kitten.  After the first kitten looked like it was doing better, we decided to put the what appeared to be the dead kitten near the heat.  After about an hour we picked it up and it moved a paw too.  Well then it was working on that kitten too.  Fast forward to today and both kitten seem like they are doing well.  We went to PetSmart and got Milk Replacer food supplement for kittens and some small bottles with nipples and also are using a heating pad to keep them warm.  They are feeding well and seem to be doing fine.  They are very small and the one is now named Chance and is 3.4 oz. and the one named Lucky weighs 2.6 oz.  Last evening I looked at the milk replacer for kittens and saw all the ingredients listed on the back.  Some of them are what are in ďdough replacersĒ.  I then thought about possibly adding some of the reconstituted milk replacer or even dry milk replacer to some dough to see what would happen.  

I had planned on making a modified Reinhart classic dough yesterday to try on Tuesday, but didnít have enough time, because the kittens need fed every two hrs. round the clock.  Today I am going to make the modified Reinhart classic dough and possibly another one to try with the milk replacer.

This is the link for the milk replacer if you or anyone wants to see the ingredients listed. http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3480958  I tasted the milk replacer when it was reconstituted with water and it almost tastes like the dairy whey I used before.  Do you think after reading the ingredients that this might be a possibility to try.  If you do think this is something I can try until I decide what I want to do, what amount do you think I should add to the modified classic Reinhart dough for a 14" pizza?

Pictures of milk replacer and kittens.

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: scott r on April 02, 2011, 04:07:11 PM
oh my heavens those are really cute!   I don't think I would have even known these were cats!
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on April 02, 2011, 04:11:36 PM
oh my heavens those are really cute!   I don't think I would have even known these were cats!

scott r,

They are cute and are already learning to do many things.  I didn't know at first they were kittens either until I bent down and really looked.  It almost was dark outside when I found them.  I sure am tired from feeding them round the clock though.   :-D  I also took videos of them.  They have the cutest mew.

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on April 02, 2011, 11:14:20 PM
Peter,

I decided to try a ďgoody bagĒ of the ingredients I have on hand, for my first experiment.  Where I am stumped is I measured one teaspoon of each of the ingredients I have and each one weighed  0.1 oz.  I donít know if my scale isnít good enough to weigh or not.  The ingredients I weighed are diastatic malt powder (King Arthur), Hodgson Mill vital wheat gluten, high heat non-fat milk powder, unflavored gelatin, Fruit Fresh and Lecithin granules.  Since I might maybe first add the goody bag as 1% of the flour in the formula, do I just now go about maybe measuring out a tablespoon of each ingredient to put into the ďgoody bagĒ and then try to calculate how much that relates to one cup of flour?

Also since I am going to add a ďgoody bagĒ, I think I am going with Better for Bread flour for the Lehmann dough.  If I have time tomorrow I will mix the two Lehmann doughs to be made at market Tuesday.

I did add 1% Milk Replacer to one of the modified Reinhart doughs for Tuesday.  I will report how that turned out on my modified Reinhart thread.

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: TXCraig1 on April 02, 2011, 11:55:06 PM
Norma, I think I see now - it sound like this is more of an exercise in learning how additional ingredients affect the dough than to create a dough conditioner to solve a specific problem or improve anything in particular.

To Scott's and Pete's comments, I would just add a couple comments and suggestions. I like with the idea of starting with testing individual ingredients, but you need to be mindful that in some cases, certain ingredients together will produce a result that neither will produce on its own and you should not be surprised if you get unexpected results when combining things you had previously tested individually. Vitamin C, is potentially a good example of this. If you put anything else in the dough that has the effect of creating oxygen, the vitamin C will act as an oxidizer strengthening the gluten. For example, glucose oxidase which is found in honey will do this (vitamin C + honey might be an interesting test). On the other hand, without oxygen, vitamin C will act as a reducing agent and break down the gluten as Scott saw when he used a lot of it.

Likewise, two ingredients may counteract eachother. One of the reasons bromate is so popular is because it works slowly. You can add a chemical reducer to make the dough faster and easier to mix, and the bromate doesn't kick in until proofing and baking when the reducer has played itself out. On the other hand, if you were to add a fast acting oxidizer instead, the two would cancel each other out.

Regarding ginger, for reasons I don't understand, in relativly small quanties, it supposidly increases yeast activity.

Other common things you might want to try: potato flour/flakes, pectin powder, soy powder, corn starch, and vinegar.

And just so I'm clear, you won't eat a nutritional supplement for humans because it may have been made from hair, but you will eat a nutritional supplement for cats that has zero legal standards for wholesomeness?

CL
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on April 03, 2011, 12:39:37 AM
Norma, I think I see now - it sound like this is more of an exercise in learning how additional ingredients affect the dough than to create a dough conditioner to solve a specific problem or improve anything in particular.

To Scott's and Pete's comments, I would just add a couple comments and suggestions. I like with the idea of starting with testing individual ingredients, but you need to be mindful that in some cases, certain ingredients together will produce a result that neither will produce on its own and you should not be surprised if you get unexpected results when combining things you had previously tested individually. Vitamin C, is potentially a good example of this. If you put anything else in the dough that has the effect of creating oxygen, the vitamin C will act as an oxidizer strengthening the gluten. For example, glucose oxidase which is found in honey will do this (vitamin C + honey might be an interesting test). On the other hand, without oxygen, vitamin C will act as a reducing agent and break down the gluten as Scott saw when he used a lot of it.

Likewise, two ingredients may counteract eachother. One of the reasons bromate is so popular is because it works slowly. You can add a chemical reducer to make the dough faster and easier to mix, and the bromate doesn't kick in until proofing and baking when the reducer has played itself out. On the other hand, if you were to add a fast acting oxidizer instead, the two would cancel each other out.

Regarding ginger, for reasons I don't understand, in relativly small quanties, it supposidly increases yeast activity.

Other common things you might want to try: potato flour/flakes, pectin powder, soy powder, corn starch, and vinegar.

And just so I'm clear, you won't eat a nutritional supplement for humans because it may have been made from hair, but you will eat a nutritional supplement for cats that has zero legal standards for wholesomeness?

CL

Craig,

You are right this experiment is more like an exercise in learning how different or all ingredients combined will affect dough.  I really donít want to improve on any doughs I am now working on.  I am just adding or subtracting regular ingredients for the test of those doughs.

I appreciate your advise and scott rís advise that certain ingredients probably will get unexpected results when mixed together.  I can understand two ingredients might counteract together.  I really donít understand how ginger works either, but I am willing to give that a try.  I might pick some of that up at the grocery store tomorrow.  The only reason I might first try a ďgoody bagĒ is that it would be easier, but I donít expect good results the first time out.  I have learned though much trial and error usually things donít work out for awhile.  

Your ideas are good of trying potato flour/flakes, pectin powder, soy powder, corn starch, and vinegar.  I read somewhere that potato flakes are really good for dough.  I probably will do those experiments later.  

As for the L-cysteine when I first heard it was made from human hair, that just grossed me out.  I would try it now in an experiment.  The nutritional supplement for cats I donít think is really bad in small amounts.  If a small kitten can survive and grow on it, it canít be that bad for humans.  Really I donít know though.  Probably not enough tests were done on humans.  Even with the FDA doing all the tests on drugs and food for human beings,  they are always finding something wrong with almost everything.

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: Pete-zza on April 03, 2011, 10:41:51 AM
I decided to try a ďgoody bagĒ of the ingredients I have on hand, for my first experiment.  Where I am stumped is I measured one teaspoon of each of the ingredients I have and each one weighed  0.1 oz.  I donít know if my scale isnít good enough to weigh or not.  The ingredients I weighed are diastatic malt powder (King Arthur), Hodgson Mill vital wheat gluten, high heat non-fat milk powder, unflavored gelatin, Fruit Fresh and Lecithin granules.  Since I might maybe first add the goody bag as 1% of the flour in the formula, do I just now go about maybe measuring out a tablespoon of each ingredient to put into the ďgoody bagĒ and then try to calculate how much that relates to one cup of flour?

Norma,

I will do some research to see what I find. In the meantime, to the extent you haven't already done so, can you tell me the brands for the unflavored gelatin, lecithin granules and high heat non-fat milk powder, and also what the ingredients are in the Fruit Fresh product? I may not need all of that information but it might come in handy at some point. Also, do you plan to use ginger as one of the ingredients in the goody bag?

Peter
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on April 03, 2011, 12:22:58 PM
Norma,

I will do some research to see what I find. In the meantime, to the extent you haven't already done so, can you tell me the brands for the unflavored gelatin, lecithin granules and high heat non-fat milk powder, and also what the ingredients are in the Fruit Fresh product? I may not need all of that information but it might come in handy at some point. Also, do you plan to use ginger as one of the ingredients in the goody bag?

Peter

Peter,

The Fruit Fresh ingredients can be found at http://www.wegmans.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=356982&storeId=10052&langId=-1 and the nutritional data can be found the same place by clicking on Nutrition.  The Lecithin granules were bought bulk at Country Store near me. The only thing listed on that bulk bag is Lecithin granules. I would have to wait until either Monday or another day to find out that information, because they arenít opened on a Sunday.  The unflavored gelatin ingredients listed are: gelatin, fumaric acid, sodium nitrate, potassium sorbate, (mold inhibitor), salt, and dimethypoly siloxane (prevents foam).  That also was bought bulk at the Country store.  I donít plan on adding any ginger this week, but might in the future.  For high heat non-fat milk powder the only information I have on that is what I posted at Reply 232 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12173.msg122458.html#msg122458

I went going on Novemberís  Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at http://foodsim.toastguard.com/  And
tried Lactic acid powder or Hodgson Mill Vital Wheat Gluten and put textbook method for measuring for mass to volume for those two ingredients for 1 gram or one 1 oz.  but got different numbers for both in teaspoons.

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: buceriasdon on April 03, 2011, 12:26:25 PM
Norma, I don't mean to distract you in your quest but have you researched agar-agar versus gelatin? Many including myself consider it superior to gelatin. I began using it in my homemade vegan cheese subsitute after reading up on the differences, mainly of course that agar is processed from seaweed and not animal by products but also that it just works better.
Don
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on April 03, 2011, 12:35:22 PM
Norma, I don't mean to distract you in your quest but have you researched agar-agar versus gelatin? Many including myself consider it superior to gelatin. I began using it in my homemade vegan cheese subsitute after reading up on the differences, mainly of course that agar is processed from seaweed and not animal by products but also that it just works better.
Don

Don,

Your arenít distracting me by suggesting different ingredients.  I havenít researched agar-agar versus gelatin.  I appreciate your advise that agar-agar is superior to gelatin.  Your research that agar is processed from seaweed and not animal products is interesting.  I might also include that in my goody bag at some point, if I decide to subtract the gelatin. Right now I am adding what I already have on hand at home. Who know where this quest might or might not take me.  I might find in the end that nothing really helps dough better than adding or subtracting regular ingredients found in pizza.  Only time will tell about that.

Thanks for your interest and your ideas.  :) I know you have done much research.

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: Pete-zza on April 03, 2011, 02:06:39 PM
Norma,

Before moving on to the next step, if there is one, I have some thoughts, comments and suggestions.

1. The Ball Fruit-Fresh product. This product includes dextrose as its main ingredient, followed by ascorbic acid (Vitamin C) and citric acid. Dextrose is a glucose form of sugar and is about 20% less sweet than table sugar. However, using this product you will be adding a sugar form to your dough, which might add another effect to the finished dough and pizza. The extent of this effect will have to await the final numbers and actual tests. If the intent is to use Vitamin C to test its effects on the finished dough and crust, I would use pure Vitamin C and not have to assess the effects of dextrose and citric acid on the finished product. Vitamin C as a pure powder can be rather expensive in health food stores although grinding a Vitamin C tablet without any other additives would be an inexpensive alternative. When Vitamin C is added to flours, it is usually in parts per million. So, measuring out the amount of Vitamin C to use can, in itself, be a challenge. You might also want to check the flour bag for your Better for Bread flour. It is my recollection that at one time General Mills used ascorbic acid in its Harvest King flour before it changed the name to Better for Bread.

2. Lecithin granules. I can get information on a generic lecithin from the SelfNutritionData website, but after doing a couple of quick checks, I saw that there were variations in the numbers that give me less confidence on the quantity to use for your purpose. I'd like to suggest that you do some weighings of your particular lecithin product. Specifically, I'd like you to measure out 1/4-cup of your lecithin granules using a 1/4-cup metal measuring cup (without a lip). You should use a tablespoon or the like to lift the granules into the measuring cup, using the Textbook method, and sweep the top of the measuring cup. Of course, you should tare out the weight of the measuring cup. I'd like you to repeat the weighings five times and give me the average of the five weights. If you would like me to calculate the average, you can give me the raw data. I suggest that you use gram weighings.

3. Gelatin. Again, I believe I can get data on pure gelatin from the SelfNutritionData but not on a product that also includes fumaric acid, sodium nitrate, potassium sorbate, (mold inhibitor), salt, and dimethypoly siloxane (prevents foam). God only knows what all of those added chemicals will do to a pizza dough and the finished pizza. If the objective is to test the effects of gelatin, I would go with a pure version. However, that is your call. But, again, I will need you to do five similar weighings as discussed above in relation to the lecithin granules.

4. High heat non-fat milk powder. The information you provided does not give weight to volume conversions. Also, I have noted from my own experience that different brands of dry milk powder have different conversion values. In your case, I suggest that you take five weighings as mentioned above and give me the average or the raw data.

I will await you guidance before proceeding.

Peter
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on April 03, 2011, 03:36:27 PM
Norma,

Before moving on to the next step, if there is one, I have some thoughts, comments and suggestions.

1. The Ball Fruit-Fresh product. This product includes dextrose as its main ingredient, followed by ascorbic acid (Vitamin C) and citric acid. Dextrose is a glucose form of sugar and is about 20% less sweet than table sugar. However, using this product you will be adding a sugar form to your dough, which might add another effect to the finished dough and pizza. The extent of this effect will have to await the final numbers and actual tests. If the intent is to use Vitamin C to test its effects on the finished dough and crust, I would use pure Vitamin C and not have to assess the effects of dextrose and citric acid on the finished product. Vitamin C as a pure powder can be rather expensive in health food stores although grinding a Vitamin C tablet without any other additives would be an inexpensive alternative. When Vitamin C is added to flours, it is usually in parts per million. So, measuring out the amount of Vitamin C to use can, in itself, be a challenge. You might also want to check the flour bag for your Better for Bread flour. It is my recollection that at one time General Mills used ascorbic acid in its Harvest King flour before it changed the name to Better for Bread.

2. Lecithin granules. I can get information on a generic lecithin from the SelfNutritionData website, but after doing a couple of quick checks, I saw that there were variations in the numbers that give me less confidence on the quantity to use for your purpose. I'd like to suggest that you do some weighings of your particular lecithin product. Specifically, I'd like you to measure out 1/4-cup of your lecithin granules using a 1/4-cup metal measuring cup (without a lip). You should use a tablespoon or the like to lift the granules into the measuring cup, using the Textbook method, and sweep the top of the measuring cup. Of course, you should tare out the weight of the measuring cup. I'd like you to repeat the weighings five times and give me the average of the five weights. If you would like me to calculate the average, you can give me the raw data. I suggest that you use gram weighings.

3. Gelatin. Again, I believe I can get data on pure gelatin from the SelfNutritionData but not on a product that also includes fumaric acid, sodium nitrate, potassium sorbate, (mold inhibitor), salt, and dimethypoly siloxane (prevents foam). God only knows what all of those added chemicals will do to a pizza dough and the finished pizza. If the objective is to test the effects of gelatin, I would go with a pure version. However, that is your call. But, again, I will need you to do five similar weighings as discussed above in relation to the lecithin granules.

4. High heat non-fat milk powder. The information you provided does not give weight to volume conversions. Also, I have noted from my own experience that different brands of dry milk powder have different conversion values. In your case, I suggest that you take five weighings as mentioned above and give me the average or the raw data.

I will await you guidance before proceeding.

Peter


Peter,

I wonít give up on this experiment.  I checked the Better for Bread bag and see Vitamin C is listed on the bag, but I donít know how much.  I also posted a picture of the Better for Bread flour at Reply 40 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13037.msg127830.html#msg127830 and where you referenced the link to the Better for Bread flour at Reply http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13037.msg127836.html#msg127836 If you think I should just purchase some Vitamin C tablets and crush them, that is okay with me, instead of using the Fruit Fresh.  If you think I should let Vitamin C out of the goody bag altogether that is okay too.

I have two sets of stainless steel measuring cups at market, but only plastic ones at home.  If you want to wait and measure out the ingredients at market, I can. 

I am soon going to the grocery store so I will purchase some pure gelatin and possibly Vitamin C.

Is there anything else I should do?

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: Pete-zza on April 03, 2011, 04:52:58 PM
Norma,

I thought it was the Pillsbury bread flour that had the ascorbic acid. When I rechecked the Betty Crocker website, the listing of ingredients for the Better for Bread flour does not show any ascorbic acid. If that is the case, you might want to get some Vitamin C.

For your purposes, I think you can use your plastic measuring cup. I have both plastic and metal measuring cups but I almost always use the metal ones so as not to introduce another varialble into what I do, even if the differences may be slight.

Peter





Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on April 03, 2011, 06:58:33 PM
Peter,

I did get Natureís Bounty Pure Vitamin C-500 mg. at the store and Knox unflavored Gelatin.
http://www.naturesbounty.com/VF/LABELS/L001510-NB.PDF
I will weigh the Knox unflavored gelatin, lecithin granules, and the high heat non-fat milk powder 5 times and do an average of 5 times.

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: Ronzo on April 03, 2011, 07:12:01 PM
Norma, you're a sweet, warm and loving person to take those kittens on like that. Kudos to you, from a big time cat lover.
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on April 03, 2011, 07:33:25 PM
Norma, you're a sweet, warm and loving person to take those kittens on like that. Kudos to you, from a big time cat lover.

Ron,

I just recently told my daughter no more animals for me anymore after my dog is gone.  Now look what happened.  :-D  I had many cats in my life, but not for many years.  The kittens keep doing new things each day.  I am glad you are an animal lover, too!  I never thought the kittens would have survived, but they did so far.

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on April 03, 2011, 07:35:23 PM
I weighed the lecithin granules, gelatin and high heat non-fat dry milk powder 5 times and took the average of the 5 times.

Lecithin granules                               27.6 grams
high heat non-fat dry milk powder        38.8 grams
Knox gelatin                                     29.8 grams

I can see by these measurements how things can get thrown off by measuring in volume measurements.  I did eyeball the 1/4 cup plastic measuring cup each time and most of the time, I didnít get the same weight.

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: Pete-zza on April 04, 2011, 12:57:49 PM
Norma,

This project has taken me considerably longer than I expected. For that reason, I have laid out below how I did everything. That way, you should be able to modify the final numbers, or change the dough enhancer formulation, however you wish.

I started by calculating the ounces per teaspoon for the various dough enhancing ingredients, based on the data you provided from your weighings and other data that I was able to find through Google searches. I found that the values for pure Vitamin C powder varied from 4g-5g per teaspoon. I elected to use the value 4.5g per teaspoon.

Next, I looked for the recommended amounts of the enhancer ingredients you have on hand per cup of flour. For this part of the exercise, I relied on the information provided in the Malisa FoodBlog. For one cup of Better for Bread flour, I used 4.25 ounces. That is basically the Textbook flour measurement used by the major millers/resellers of bread flour. Where ingredient quantities were specified for a loaf of bread, I used 3 Ĺ cups of flour to convert the recommended quantities to one cup of flour. 3 Ĺ cups of flour would be roughly the amount of flour to make a 24-ounce loaf of bread.

Finally, I calculated the total weight of all of the enhancer ingredients for one cup of the Better for Bread flour. That allowed me to then calculate the bakerís percent on the basis of that one cup of flour.

Here are the results:

Dough Enhancer Ingredients (oz/t)
Lecithin granules: 0.08113 oz/t (27.6g/12/28.35)
Hormel high heat non-fat dry milk: 0.11405 oz/t (38.8/12/28.35)
Knox gelatin: 0.0876 oz/g (29.8/12/28.35)
Hodgson Mill vital wheat gluten: 0.10582 oz/t
Diastatic malt: 0.0881834 oz/t
Vitamin C: 0.15873 oz/t (4.5/28.35)

Recommended Amounts for Bread (from Malisaís Food Blog)
Lecithin granules: 1T/cup of flour
High heat non-fat dry milk powder: ľ cup for 3 cups flour
Gelatin: 1 t/loaf (assume 3 Ĺ cups flour)
Vital wheat gluten: 1T/cup flour
Diastatic malt powder: Ĺ to 1t for 3 cups flour (I assumed 1 t for 3 cups flour)
Vitamin C: 1/8t/loaf (assume 3 Ĺ cups flour)

Amounts for One Cup (4.25oz) Better for Bread Flour
Lecithin granules: 0.24339oz/6.9g
Hormel high heat non-fat dry milk powder: 0.4562oz/12.93g
Knox gelatin: 0.025029oz/0.71g
Hodgson Mill vital wheat gluten: 0.31746oz/9g
Diastatic malt (assume 1t/3 cups flour): 0.0293945oz/0.83g
Vitamin C: 0.005669oz/0.16g
Total weight: 1.0771425oz/30.54g

In your case, you may want to make a much larger quantity of the dough enhancer blend so that you can weigh out the ingredients on your scale. You may then want to take several weight measurements using your ľ-cup measuring cup, as before, and average them in order to determine how much a single teaspoon weighs (you divide the average by 12). That will allow you to convert the weight of the dough enhancer blend used in any dough recipe to volume measurements. Of course, you will also have to decide how much of the dough enhancer blend you want to use from a bakerís percent standpoint for pizza dough as opposed to bread dough.

Good luck.

Peter
Edit (4/8/11): Corrected gram value for vital wheat gluten
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on April 04, 2011, 04:39:47 PM
Norma,

This project has taken me considerably longer than I expected. For that reason, I have laid out below how I did everything. That way, you should be able to modify the final numbers, or change the dough enhancer formulation, however you wish.

I started by calculating the ounces per teaspoon for the various dough enhancing ingredients, based on the data you provided from your weighings and other data that I was able to find through Google searches. I found that the values for pure Vitamin C powder varied from 4g-5g per teaspoon. I elected to use the value 4.5g per teaspoon.

Next, I looked for the recommended amounts of the enhancer ingredients you have on hand per cup of flour. For this part of the exercise, I relied on the information provided in the Malisa FoodBlog. For one cup of Better for Bread flour, I used 4.25 ounces. That is basically the Textbook flour measurement used by the major millers/resellers of bread flour. Where ingredient quantities were specified for a loaf of bread, I used 3 Ĺ cups of flour to convert the recommended quantities to one cup of flour. 3 Ĺ cups of flour would be roughly the amount of flour to make a 24-ounce loaf of bread.

Finally, I calculated the total weight of all of the enhancer ingredients for one cup of the Better for Bread flour. That allowed me to then calculate the bakerís percent on the basis of that one cup of flour.

Here are the results:

Dough Enhancer Ingredients (oz/t)
Lecithin granules: 0.08113 oz/t (27.6g/12/28.35)
Hormel high heat non-fat dry milk: 0.11405 oz/t (38.8/12/28.35)
Knox gelatin: 0.0876 oz/g (29.8/12/28.35)
Hodgson Mill vital wheat gluten: 0.10582 oz/t
Diastatic malt: 0.0881834 oz/t
Vitamin C: 0.15873 oz/t (4.5/28.35)

Recommended Amounts for Bread (from Malisaís Food Blog)
Lecithin granules: 1T/cup of flour
High heat non-fat dry milk powder: ľ cup for 3 cups flour
Gelatin: 1 t/loaf (assume 3 Ĺ c. flour
Vital wheat gluten: 1T/cup flour
Diastatic malt powder: Ĺ to 1t for 3 cups flour (I assumed 1 t for 3 cups flour)
Vitamin C: 1/8t/loaf (assume 3 Ĺ cups flour)

Amounts for One Cup (4.25oz) Better for Bread Flour
Lecithin granules: 0.24339oz/6.9g
Hormel high heat non-fat dry milk powder: 0.4562oz/12.93g
Knox gelatin: 0.025029oz/0.71g
Hodgson Mill vital wheat gluten: 0.31746oz/0.83g
Diastatic malt (assume 1t/3cups flour): 0.0293945oz/0.83g
Vitamin C: 0.005669oz/0.16g
Total weight: 1.0771425oz/30.54g
Bakerís %: 25.35%

In your case, you may want to make a much larger quantity of the dough enhancer blend so that you can weigh out the ingredients on your scale. You may then want to take several weight measurements using your ľ-cup measuring cup, as before, and average them in order to determine how much a single teaspoon weighs (you divide the average by 12). That will allow you to convert the weight of the dough enhancer blend used in any dough recipe to volume measurements. Of course, you will also have to decide how much of the dough enhancer blend you want to use from a bakerís percent standpoint for pizza dough as opposed to bread dough.

Good luck.

Peter


Peter,

Thank you so much for even taking the time to do on all the calculations for my ďdough enchancerĒ project.  I know I wouldnít have been able to figure out what you did.  I donít see how you can find all the data to figure it all out, even without all the calculations.

I will go over what all you have posted and try to make a ďdough enchancerĒ tonight with using larger amounts so I can weigh them on my scale. If I have time I will make two Lehmann doughs, one without the dough enchaacer and one with it.  I could let the dough sit out to simulate a longer ferment time either tonight or tomorrow.  I think I am going to only go with 12" pizza for the first tests, because I have no idea how much flour I will use for these tests. 

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: Pete-zza on April 04, 2011, 06:01:14 PM
Norma,

I went back to my post and deleted the baker's percent number so as not to confuse you. Since we have made a concoction of only the ingredients you have on hand, we really don't know how much of it to use for your purposes. In the example of the dough enhancer formulation given in the Malisa WebBlog, one tablespoon (three teaspoons) of her dough enhancer blend is used for a single loaf of bread. We don't know the weight of that tablespoon and, moreover, one tablespoon of her dough enhancer blend is very likely to have a different weight than one tablespoon of your blend. I notice that Malisa's dough blend formulation comes to one quart, but it is not clear if that is exact or accurate or just her best estimate. I would have to convert her ingredients to weights and see if it is possible to come up with what a teaspoon of her blend weighs. In your case, you might just pick a somewhat arbitrary baker's percent to use to get your project off of the ground. For example, you might try using 5% of the flour weight.

Another point to keep in mind is that the more ingredients you use in your blend, the more they take of the total dough weight. For example, if you had fifteen different ingredients, all or most of the other ingredients in the dough formulation would have to be reduced to make room for the dough enhancer blend if you are trying to keep a fixed dough weight. If you reduce the baker's percent of the dough enhancer blend to compensate, it is possible that any one or more of the ingredients loses some of its efficacy in the dough. This does not happen when you use one dough enhancer ingredient at a time using the recommended baker's percent. In your side-by-side Lehmann test, I think I would use your regular Lehmann formulation for both dough balls but just add some of the dough enhancer blend (say, 5%) to one of the dough balls. At about 5%, that would increase the weight of the dough ball to which it is added by a fraction of an ounce for a 12" dough ball. That difference might not be material. You could trim the weight of the dough ball with the dough enhancer blend back to be the same as the dough ball without the dough enhancer blend but that has the effect of reducing the baker's percents of all of the ingredients other than the flour, albeit slightly.

I think you will have to do a few experiments to zero in more closely to amounts of the dough enhancer blend to use if the results are good enough to warrant further testing.

Peter
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on April 04, 2011, 06:18:09 PM
Peter,

I was just trying to figure out what amount of ďdough enhancerĒ I wanted to try this time.  I decided on 2% of the flour amount.  I used the expanded dough calculating tool and my total flour weight was 190.85 grams. I then figured out that amount is about 1 Ĺ cups of flour, if I am right.  I then used about  the recommended amount for bread from Malisaís Food Blog, as you stated.

What I came up with was for a trial to mix together was:

1 Ĺ T Lecithin grandules
1/8 cup high heat non-fat milk powder
Ĺ teaspoon gelatin
1 Ĺ T vital what gluten
Ĺ teaspoon diastatic malt
1/16 tsp. Vitamin C

The weight of the mixture I figured out on the calculator was to add 3.82 grams of the dough enchancer.  Do you think what I did was okay?

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: Pete-zza on April 04, 2011, 07:03:43 PM
Norma,

I don't think your numbers are correct based on my calculations. The reason is that the recommended amounts of the ingredients to use (the second table) are not all with respect to one cup of flour. Some are with respect to a loaf of bread, which for a normal loaf of bread comes to several cups of flour (I used 3 1/2 cups). That is why I had to normalize everything to one cup of flour. The way I would proceed is to take a multiple of the values of the ingredients given in the last table and weigh the ingredients on your scale, using grams. In the case of the ascorbic acid (Vitamin C), you may not be able to weigh it on your scale so you may need to convert its weight to a mini-measuring spoon measurement.

As an example, say that you decide to make five times the amount of the blend I showed in the last table. I would multiply the values of the individual ingredients and weigh them on the scale (except for the ascorbic acid). I would then combine them to form the blend. If you decide to use 2% of the blend with the flour weight you mentioned, 190.85 grams, then the weight of the blend you would use is 0.02 x 190.65g = 3.81g. I would weigh that amount on the scale and use it in your dough formulation. If you can't weight that amount on your scale accurately, you may have to make multiple weighings of a larger amount of the blend, for example, 1/8-cup or 1/4-cup, as before, and take the average.

Your conversion of 190.85g of flour is roughly correct. Assuming that a cup of flour is 4.25 oz as mentioned earlier, the 190.85g converts to 1.58 cups, or a bit less than 1 5/8 cups.

BTW, while you were attempting to come up with your blend, I took a stab at converting Malisa's blend to a baker's percent, based on using one tablespoon for a loaf of bread. Assuming that the one-quart quantity is accurate and that one tablespoon of her blend is used for a loaf of bread (I used 3 1/2 cups of flour), I came up with a baker's percent with respect to one cup of flour of 2.94%.

Peter
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on April 04, 2011, 07:58:42 PM
Peter,

I was in a hurry to try the blend tonight, and had an appointment to go to, so I guess I wasnít thinking and just used the second table and then decided to try and base that on using one cup of flour.   I wonít do the blend tonight, because there isnít enough time left today, but I will follow your instructions this week to make the blend for next week.

Thanks for explaining what I did wrong and helping me with the dough enhancer I want to experiment with.

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on April 08, 2011, 12:40:11 PM
Peter,

I have been trying to figure out my blend, by using the last table you posted at Reply 36 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13385.msg133849.html#msg133849       
and I multiplied each ingredient in the blend 5 times in grams.  I then added the ingredients up and got 111.96 grams. What I donít understand is looking at your table for the Hodgson Mill vital wheat gluten and Diastatic malt, why the numbers are the same in grams for those two ingredients, but different in ounces.  Is this an error, or something else I donít understand.  I then added all your total blend ingredients in ounces and got the same total weight you did in oz., but not in grams.  What I got in grams was 22.36 grams.

Before I continue to figure this out is there an explanation what happened?

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: Pete-zza on April 08, 2011, 02:42:04 PM
Before I continue to figure this out is there an explanation what happened?

Norma,

Yes, there is a very good explanation. I transcribed the wrong grams number for the vital wheat gluten from my handwritten notes. You will see that I corrected the error. FYI, to convert ounces to grams, all you need to do is multiply the ounce number by 28.35.

Peter
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on April 08, 2011, 06:16:03 PM
Letís see if I got the blend right this time. 

times 5 all in grams

lecithin granules                   34.5
high heat milk powder            64.65
Knox gelatin                          3.55
vital wheat gluten                 45.0
Diastatic Malt                        4.15
Vitamin C                      . 08

Total 151.93

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: Pete-zza on April 08, 2011, 06:52:22 PM
Norma,

What you posted seems to be correct except that I get 5 x 0.16 = 0.8 for the ascorbic acid (Vitamin C). With that change, I get a total weight of 152.65 grams. Your actual weight may be somewhat different (hopefully slight) because I used some published data for some of your ingredients, rather than actual weights since I do not have all of your ingredients to do my own weighings. If your scale cannot accurately weigh some of your final ingredients, you can use the conversion data in the first table at Reply 36 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13385.msg133849.html#msg133849 to convert them to volume measurements but you will have to first convert your weights to ounces (by dividing the grams values by 28.35). If you need help in converting the small amount of ascorbic acid to a volume measurement, let me know. You most likely will have to use a mini-measuring spoon for that measurement.

Peter
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on April 08, 2011, 10:03:05 PM
Norma,

What you posted seems to be correct except that I get 5 x 0.16 = 0.8 for the ascorbic acid (Vitamin C). With that change, I get a total weight of 152.65 grams. Your actual weight may be somewhat different (hopefully slight) because I used some published data for some of your ingredients, rather than actual weights since I do not have all of your ingredients to do my own weighings. If your scale cannot accurately weigh some of your final ingredients, you can use the conversion data in the first table at Reply 36 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13385.msg133849.html#msg133849 to convert them to volume measurements but you will have to first convert your weights to ounces (by dividing the grams values by 28.35). If you need help in converting the small amount of ascorbic acid to a volume measurement, let me know. You most likely will have to use a mini-measuring spoon for that measurement.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for helping me again.  I did convert the grams into ounces, but I donít have a mini-measuring spoon.  I will look for one in my area, or order one online before I proceed with this project.

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: Pete-zza on April 08, 2011, 10:15:38 PM
I did convert the grams into ounces, but I donít have a mini-measuring spoon.  I will look for one in my area, or order one online before I proceed with this project.

Norma,

The 0.8 grams of ascorbic acid is convertible to (0.8/28.35)/0.15873 = 0.18 teaspoon. If you had a 1/16 teaspoon "pinch" mini-measuring spoon, you would get close to 0.18 teaspoon by using three of that mini-measuring spoon. However, if you use 1 1/2 of a 1/8 teaspoon measuring spoon, which is a common size, you should get the same amount. The difference is that you would have to estimate a half of a 1/8 teaspoon measuring spoon. I would use this approach in your case rather than waiting to get a set of mini-measuring spoons.

Peter
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on April 08, 2011, 11:10:37 PM
Norma,

The 0.8 grams of ascorbic acid is convertible to (0.8/28.35)/0.15873 = 0.18 teaspoon. If you had a 1/16 teaspoon "pinch" mini-measuring spoon, you would get close to 0.18 teaspoon by using three of that mini-measuring spoon. However, if you use 1 1/2 of a 1/8 teaspoon measuring spoon, which is a common size, you should get the same amount. The difference is that you would have to estimate a half of a 1/8 teaspoon measuring spoon. I would use this approach in your case rather than waiting to get a set of mini-measuring spoons.

Peter

Peter,

I do have a 1/8 teaspoon measuring spoon, so I will give that a try.  I might as well order a mini-set of measuring spoons anyway, because I probably will need them for this project or other experiments.  I will mix the blend tomorrow.  I have one other question though before I mix the blend.  When I converted the Knox gelatin to ounces I got 0.1252.  Do I just round it off to 0.1?  The same thing with the diastatic malt powder, I got 0.1463 when converted to ounces.  I could easily weigh that on my market scale, but not my home scale.

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: Pete-zza on April 08, 2011, 11:53:26 PM
Norma,

If you can weigh the Knox gelatin and diastatic malt on a grams basis, that is what I recommend. The only reason to convert from grams to ounces is to use the conversion data to convert from ounces to measuring spoon measurements.

Peter
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on April 09, 2011, 12:07:39 AM
Norma,

If you can weigh the Knox gelatin and diastatic malt on a grams basis, that is what I recommend. The only reason to convert from grams to ounces is to use the conversion data to convert from ounces to measuring spoon measurements.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks, again.  I will make the blend and 2 Lehmann dough balls tomorrow.  One without the blend and one with the blend.  I will be using the dough balls at market to make the pizzas.  I will learn a lot though this thread.  I already have learned more.

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: Pete-zza on April 09, 2011, 12:24:23 AM
Norma,

At some point, I think that it would be useful to weigh just one teaspoon of your blend, preferably in grams to be consistent. If that is hard to do on your scale, you could fill a tared 1/8-cup measuring cup (level) and weigh that. You would then divide that weight by six to get the weight for just one teaspoon.

As you can see, working with small numbers and small weights can be a real pain. It is also easy to make errors when working with the different sets of numbers needed to do what you want to do. You had better pray that the blend works and doesn't need any changes.

Peter
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: November on April 09, 2011, 12:38:16 AM
Norma,

I went going on Novemberís  Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at http://foodsim.toastguard.com/  And
tried Lactic acid powder or Hodgson Mill Vital Wheat Gluten and put textbook method for measuring for mass to volume for those two ingredients for 1 gram or one 1 oz.  but got different numbers for both in teaspoons.

What are you actually trying to compare the numbers with?  I didn't see anywhere among the immediately surrounding posts that you're using lactic acid powder.  Where are you getting lactic acid powder from?

Peter,

I haven't had time to read through all the posts here, but it appears there might be an opportunity to add more items to the Mass-Volume Conversion Calculator.  I see many ingredients have been weighed recently.  Have any of them been weighed in two or more sized measuring apparatuses?  If anybody has weights of an ingredient from two different measuring cup sizes, I'd be glad to include them in the drop-down menu.

- red.november
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on April 09, 2011, 12:39:05 AM
Norma,

At some point, I think that it would be useful to weigh just one teaspoon of your blend, preferably in grams to be consistent. If that is hard to do on your scale, you could fill a tared 1/8-cup measuring cup (level) and weigh that. You would then divide that weight by six to get the weight for just one teaspoon.

As you can see, working with small numbers and small weights can be a real pain. It is also easy to make errors when working with the different sets of numbers needed to do what you want to do. You had better pray that the blend works and doesn't need any changes.

Peter

Peter,

I will follow your instructions on weighing the blend, either in grams or in a tared 1/8 cup measuring cup and then weigh that and divide that weight by six to get the weight for just one teaspoon.

I probably wonít get the results I want by praying.  I can see by using small weights and small numbers, it is a pain.  I can see since I am math challenged it is hard working with different sets of numbers and being able to understand what to do.  Hopefully this project will help me understand more.  

Thanks for hanging in there with all my problems. I donít know how you can understand how to go about a project like this, but if I ever am successful, I will give you some gold stars.  I never should have tried this project, with my limited math skills,  but I am just curious to find out if somehow a blend can help dough.

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on April 09, 2011, 12:49:05 AM
Norma,

 I didn't see anywhere among the immediately surrounding posts that you're using lactic acid powder.  Where are you getting lactic acid powder from?

- red.november

November,

I donít actually have lactic acid powder.  I was just trying to put in different ingredients in your calculator, that I am trying in my blend to see what would happen.  These are the ingredients I am trying at Reply 44 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13385.msg134450.html#msg134450

I didnít know how to go about doing this project, so that is why Peter is helping me to be able to make my blend to try in dough.

The numbers are supposed to be compared for making bread, but I want to try and make either pizza dough or bread with the blend.

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: Pete-zza on April 09, 2011, 10:59:57 AM
Peter,

I haven't had time to read through all the posts here, but it appears there might be an opportunity to add more items to the Mass-Volume Conversion Calculator.  I see many ingredients have been weighed recently.  Have any of them been weighed in two or more sized measuring apparatuses?  If anybody has weights of an ingredient from two different measuring cup sizes, I'd be glad to include them in the drop-down menu.

November,

I am not aware of anyone having conducted weight measurements in two or more sized measuring cup sizes. I had Norma do a few multiple weighings of some of her ingredients for her dough enhancer blend but that was just to get a bit more accurate weight per teaspoon for those ingredients. I used those values in lieu of conversion data from other sources, such as from the SelfNutritionData website or from packaging information. I also assumed through all this that there is some compaction dynamics for ingredients like lecithin, vital wheat gluten, etc. although the differences are perhaps slight for the small amounts that Norma would use.

Lactic acid is something that Norma might want to consider some time. Can you recommend a good source for that product?

Peter
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: Pete-zza on April 09, 2011, 11:15:21 AM
I donít know how you can understand how to go about a project like this

Norma,

The approach I took was dictated by the circumstances. Had you decided to try out your dough enhancer ingredients one at a time, the weight/volume conversion data would have been the same but I perhaps would have researched how much of each ingredient, by percent, is typically used for bread dough or pizza dough. Since you decided to go for the jugular and short circuit all of the individual tests, I decided solely out of convenience to use the "recommended use" data from the Malisa FoodBlog at http://concasse.blogspot.com/2009/04/natural-dough-conditioner-enhancer.html.

I believe I have conducted all or most of the heavy lifting at this point so it should be easier to modify your dough enhancer blend going forward by adding other ingredients or changing amounts of individual ingredients. But this still consumes time to do all of the math. It took me several hours of research and number crunching to come up with the three-stage method I described earlier in this thread.

The main reason I asked you to conduct some weighings of your final dough enhancer blend (to come up with a weight per teaspoon) is to allow you to usurp one of the ingredient fields in the expanded dough calculating tool. That way, you can enter the percent of the dough enhancer blend you want to use and you will get the weight and hopefully be able to use your scale to measure it out. Otherwise, you will have to manually convert the weight to a volume measurement.

Peter
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on April 09, 2011, 11:48:46 AM
Norma,

The approach I took was dictated by the circumstances. Had you decided to try out your dough enhancer ingredients one at a time, the weight/volume conversion data would have been the same but I perhaps would have researched how much of each ingredient, by percent, is typically used for bread dough or pizza dough. Since you decided to go for the jugular and short circuit all of the individual tests, I decided solely out of convenience to use the "recommended use" data from the Malisa FoodBlog at http://concasse.blogspot.com/2009/04/natural-dough-conditioner-enhancer.html.

I believe I have conducted all or most of the heavy lifting at this point so it should be easier to modify your dough enhancer blend going forward by adding other ingredients or changing amounts of individual ingredients. But this still consumes time to do all of the math. It took me several hours of research and number crunching to come up with the three-stage method I described earlier in this thread.

The main reason I asked you to conduct some weighings of your final dough enhancer blend (to come up with a weight per teaspoon) is to allow you to usurp one of the ingredient fields in the expanded dough calculating tool. That way, you can enter the percent of the dough enhancer blend you want to use and you will get the weight and hopefully be able to use your scale to measure it out. Otherwise, you will have to manually convert the weight to a volume measurement.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for explaining how you went about figuring out this project.  I can understand it did take you a long time to the research and do the number crunching and also explaining to me how to go about everything with the ingredients I wanted to try all at once.  This isnít the first time I went for the jugular in an experiment, but I can understand my results might not work out for awhile when using a blend and maybe not at all.  I am one that always wants to experiment, but donít have the math skills to figure out what to do.

Hopefully I will know more on Tuesday, what will happen with the current blend in the regular Lehmann dough.

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on April 09, 2011, 06:21:05 PM

Have any of them been weighed in two or more sized measuring apparatuses?  If anybody has weights of an ingredient from two different measuring cup sizes, I'd be glad to include them in the drop-down menu.

- red.november


November,

If you ever want me to measure the ingredients I am using in my blend, or other ingredients I might try in the blend, I could use my scale at market. It does measure better than my home scale.  The scale at market measures in kgs, lbs. or oz.  I could bring it home.

http://www.webstaurantstore.com/tor-rey-pzc-5-10-pound-digital-pizza-controller-portion-scale-with-foot-tare-pedal/166PZC510.html and http://www.webstaurantstore.com/specsheets/166PZC510.pdf

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on April 09, 2011, 06:27:30 PM
I had errand running to do today and I had stopped at Marshallís to get new sneakers.  I found a stainless steel measuring set, that had mini-measuring spoons.  At least now I have stainless steel measuring cups, 5 measuring spoons, and mini-measuring spoons at home to use.  Now I will be able to measure small ingredients more accurately.  ;D

Picture below

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on April 09, 2011, 09:57:22 PM
I mixed the blend and made the two Lehmann dough balls early this evening, one with the blend and one without the blend.  I also measured 1/8 cup of blend and it weighed 16 grams on my kitchen scale and then I divided that by 6 to get the weight of 2.666 for one teaspoon.

First picture is what the blend looks like.  Second picture is of the Lehmann dough ball with the blend and and the third picture is of the Lehmann dough ball without the blend.  Both dough were almost the same final dough temperature.  The blend dough ball was 77.1 degrees F and the Lehmann dough ball without the blend was 77.6 degrees F.  I mixed both doughs the same.

Hopefully there will be some difference in the Lehmann doughs when they are baked, whether good or bad.

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on April 10, 2011, 10:48:40 AM
These are what the Lehmann dough balls looked like a little while ago, one with the blend and one without.  The dough ball with the blend feels much denser and isnít fermenting as fast.  At least it doesnít look like it to me.  I weighed both dough balls in the plastic container this morning and the one with the blend is 379 grams and the one without the blend is 377 grams.  I did weigh an empty container, like the ones I used for both dough balls and it weighs 56 grams.

By the looks of the Lehmann dough ball with the blend it doesnít look like it is doing as well.  :-\

Pictures first of Lehmann dough ball with blend and next pictures are of Lehmann dough without blend.

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: Pete-zza on April 10, 2011, 11:02:51 AM
Norma,

Can you tell us how much of the dough enhancer blend you used, either in grams/ounces, as a percent of the total formula flour, or as a volume measurement?

Peter
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on April 10, 2011, 01:58:21 PM
Norma,

Can you tell us how much of the dough enhancer blend you used, either in grams/ounces, as a percent of the total formula flour, or as a volume measurement?

Peter

Peter,

This is the formula I used.

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: Pete-zza on April 10, 2011, 02:23:17 PM
Norma,

Did you use the Baker's Non-Fat Dry Milk entry in the expanded dough calculating tool as a proxy for the dough enhancer blend (at 2%) and, if so, did you weigh the dough enhancer blend you used (3.82 grams?), or did you convert it to a volume measurement?

Peter
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on April 10, 2011, 02:55:16 PM
Norma,

Did you use the Baker's Non-Fat Dry Milk entry in the expanded dough calculating tool as a proxy for the dough enhancer blend (at 2%) and, if so, did you weigh the dough enhancer blend you used (3.82 grams?), or did you convert it to a volume measurement?

Peter

Peter,

I did use the Bakerís Non-Fat Dry Milk entry in the expanded dough calculating tool as a proxy for the  blend at 2%.  I did weigh the blend at 3.82 grams or almost, because my home scales can weight that amount.  I usually go to the next highest number which would be 4 grams and then take a little out.  Did I do something wrong again?

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: Pete-zza on April 10, 2011, 03:26:43 PM
I did use the Bakerís Non-Fat Dry Milk entry in the expanded dough calculating tool as a proxy for the  blend at 2%.  I did weigh the blend at 3.82 grams or almost, because my home scales can weight that amount.  I usually go to the next highest number which would be 4 grams and then take a little out.  Did I do something wrong again?

Norma,

LOL. No, you did fine. I often ask questions that I think other member are wondering about, even when I think I know the answers. In your experiment, if you used 4 grams of the dough enhancer blend, that comes to 4/2.666 = 1.5 teaspoons.

Since you are not really adding much dough enhancer blend to the basic Lehmann dough, it is somewhat puzzling why that dough is not keeping up with the other Lehmann dough without the dough enhancer blend. It is perhaps best to just see the final results before doing a postmortem or autopsy if called for.

Peter
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on April 11, 2011, 10:05:20 AM
Norma,

LOL. No, you did fine. I often ask questions that I think other member are wondering about, even when I think I know the answers. In your experiment, if you used 4 grams of the dough enhancer blend, that comes to 4/2.666 = 1.5 teaspoons.

Since you are not really adding much dough enhancer blend to the basic Lehmann dough, it is somewhat puzzling why that dough is not keeping up with the other Lehmann dough without the dough enhancer blend. It is perhaps best to just see the final results before doing a postmortem or autopsy if called for.

Peter

Peter,

Thankfully I didnít make another mistake in using the blend.  :-D  If you or anyone is interested in what the blend Lehmann dough looks like today, this is what it looked like a little while ago.  The top of the dough ball with the blend feels softer than yesterday and on the bottom of the dough ball looks like it is fermenting well.  I didnít take a picture of the regular Lehmann dough ball because it is cold fermenting like I thought it would.  At least if this blend is or isn't going to work, I am letting it cold ferment for a few days to see if the dough changes over the few days.

From this blend experiment it makes me more curious how yeast and other ingredients work in flour.  I would think each constant (room temperature, flour brand, salt, water hydration, etc.) all do affect dough, even with one variant.  The way regular IDY performs in dough is also interesting to me.  I would think that if any dough could be compared at one temperature level (keeping the temperature something like 60 degrees F) with just one variant there could be seen if a dough balls performs differently.  I would at least think how the yeast performs in two different constant temperatures would be interesting.  Maybe that is another experiment for someday.

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: November on April 11, 2011, 02:35:03 PM
Lactic acid is something that Norma might want to consider some time. Can you recommend a good source for that product?

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4517.msg48066.html#msg48066

To better approximate lactic acid, an organic acid (like citric or ascorbic) would need to be combined with the calcium lactate.  Calcium lactate is much of the flavor of lactic acid without all the sour.  If you want a mostly pure lactic acid, it usually comes in liquid form.  It is usually expensive.  There are lactic acid and calcium lactate powder blends, which are cheaper and easier to work with.  I received my supply from Purac.  Galactic is another brand which has recently entered the baking additive market.

http://www.bakeryandsnacks.com/Formulation/Galactic-develops-lactic-acid-powder-for-bakery-mixes
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on April 11, 2011, 06:00:42 PM
November,

Would you suggest I buy calcium lactate to be combined in the blend for a slightly sourdough taste?  I donít want to spend a lot of money when experimenting with the blend, because I donít know what the results will be.  By looking over the ingredients I am using for the blend, what ingredients would you delete?  Can anyone purchase lactic acid and calcium lactate powder blends from Purac?

Thanks,

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on April 12, 2011, 10:07:30 PM
The first two pictures are of the dough ball  top and bottom with the blend in the Lehmann dough.  The second two pictures are of the regular Lehmann dough ball top and bottom.  The first set of pictures after those four, are of the Lehmann dough with the blend steps and final pizza.  Then the next set of pictures are the regular Lehmann dough steps and final  pizza

The dough balls looked about the same (the one with the blend fermented differently on the bottom of the dough ball) and both had a bubble on the top of the dough balls, but the dough ball with the blend didnít rise as much.  Although neither pizza had good oven spring, the pizza made with the blend tasted better in the crust.  I canít explain how it tasted different, but there was a better flavor in the crust.  Both pizzas were crisp on the rim and bottom.  It can be seen in the picture of the bottom of the crust with the blend, it looked like kinda warts on the bottom.  That didnít detract from the taste of the crust.  Steve also agreed that the pizza made with the blend was better.  Both pizzas reminded Steve and me of regular Lehmann dough pizzas.

I donít know what to try in the next experiment with the blend. Maybe I should subtract something from the blend or up the percentage of the blend.  Any thoughts what to try?

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on April 12, 2011, 10:09:31 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on April 12, 2011, 10:11:22 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on April 12, 2011, 10:13:38 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on April 12, 2011, 10:16:08 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on April 12, 2011, 10:18:10 PM
end of pictures..last picture is after Lehmann dough pizza with blend cooled off.

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: Pete-zza on April 13, 2011, 10:13:06 AM
Norma,

It's really hard to know where to go next with this project. If you had hit the ball out of the park, we would perhaps be resting on our laurels or else just tweaking the dough enhancer blend to get even better results. Unfortunately, at this stage, we don't really know which ingredients, or combination of ingredients, or biochemical events produced the particular combination of positive and negative results you got (good crust flavor but reduced oven spring). We can only speculate based on what we know about the function and purpose of each ingredient and what it might do in a dough if used all by itself.

At this juncture, I think I would be inclined to try increasing the amount of dough enhancer blend to see if the effects are more pronounced or exaggerated--or even different--than what you got with your latest experiment. For this reason, I think I would use a lot more dough enhancer blend, possibly 6-7%. I would also stick with your basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation as the control dough. I would then use the results to consider what might be a logical next step--if one can be identified--to take with the project.

Peter
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on April 13, 2011, 11:54:44 AM
Norma,

It's really hard to know where to go next with this project. If you had hit the ball out of the park, we would perhaps be resting on our laurels or else just tweaking the dough enhancer blend to get even better results. Unfortunately, at this stage, we don't really know which ingredients, or combination of ingredients, or biochemical events produced the particular combination of positive and negative results you got (good crust flavor but reduced oven spring). We can only speculate based on what we know about the function and purpose of each ingredient and what it might do in a dough if used all by itself.

At this juncture, I think I would be inclined to try increasing the amount of dough enhancer blend to see if the effects are more pronounced or exaggerated--or even different--than what you got with your latest experiment. For this reason, I think I would use a lot more dough enhancer blend, possibly 6-7%. I would also stick with your basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation as the control dough. I would then use the results to consider what might be a logical next step--if one can be identified--to take with the project.

Peter

Peter,

What fascinated me most about this experiment, is I got about the same amount of oven spring with the dough with the blend and also the regular Lehmann dough.  As many times as I have experimented with the regular Lehmann dough, I would have thought at 63% hydration and knowing what I have learned so far about handling different doughs, I would have gotten more oven spring in the regular Lehaman dough, even if the blended dough didnít get more oven spring.  This has me curious what happened with the regular Lehmann dough pizza and the amount of oven spring.  I could see the blend dough with the added blend might have been drier, but the regular Lehmann dough should have had better results.

I didnít expect to hit the blend dough out of the ball park the first time.  It never usually happens that way for me.  Should I for my next attempt, use the same base Lehmann dough formula for both dough balls, one with the blend and one without?  I know the numbers would change if I do two formulas on the expanded dough calculating tool. 

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: Pete-zza on April 13, 2011, 04:11:45 PM
Norma,

When I first started playing around with the basic Lehmann NY style dough, I thought that the finished pizza was supposed to have a large, puffy rim. I was later told that an authentic NY street style pizza did not have a large rim. I was also told that an authentic NY street style pizza did not have a lot of crust color, or char. If you look at the original Lehmann NY style dough formulation at http://pmq.com/tt2/recipe/view/id_151/title_New-York-Style-Pizza/, you will see that it is a basic, no-nonsense, straightforward recipe without any pretenses to artisanship. The recipe calls for a modest amount of yeast, no sugar and a small amount of oil (1%), kneading just to the point of slight underkneading, paying close attention to achieving a finished dough temperature of 80-85 degrees F, getting the dough into the cooler as soon as possible and cross-stacking/down-stacking, etc., and proofing for a short period of time upon removal from the cooler. The maximum hydration is 65% but that value is not a common one for the NY street style, and I can't ever recall Tom Lehmann recommending such a high hydration value to pizza operators. Although the recipe does not say anything about bake temperatures, Tom usually recommends a bake temperature of anywhere from 450 degrees F to 525 degrees F for a deck oven, depending on the desired finished pizza characteristics and other factors that vary from one oven and one situation to another.

I suspect that there is a way of introducing artisan methods into the Lehmann NY style, such as using a much higher hydration, and using autolyse or similar rest periods, and stretch and folds, much as you have done with the Reinhart dough recipes. I would expect that you would see an increase in rim size but I have never tried modifying the Lehmann recipe that way to confirm my suspicions.

For your next experiment, I would use the same basic Lehmann dough for both dough balls. The numbers will change a bit, as you noted, but the weight of the dough enhancer blend should still be quite small in relation to the total dough weight.

Peter
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on April 13, 2011, 05:54:50 PM
Norma,

When I first started playing around with the basic Lehmann NY style dough, I thought that the finished pizza was supposed to have a large, puffy rim. I was later told that an authentic NY street style pizza did not have a large rim. I was also told that an authentic NY street style pizza did not have a lot of crust color, or char. If you look at the original Lehmann NY style dough formulation at http://pmq.com/tt2/recipe/view/id_151/title_New-York-Style-Pizza/, you will see that it is a basic, no-nonsense, straightforward recipe without any pretenses to artisanship. The recipe calls for a modest amount of yeast, no sugar and a small amount of oil (1%), kneading just to the point of slight underkneading, paying close attention to achieving a finished dough temperature of 80-85 degrees F, getting the dough into the cooler as soon as possible and cross-stacking/down-stacking, etc., and proofing for a short period of time upon removal from the cooler. The maximum hydration is 65% but that value is not a common one for the NY street style, and I can't ever recall Tom Lehmann recommending such a high hydration value to pizza operators. Although the recipe does not say anything about bake temperatures, Tom usually recommends a bake temperature of anywhere from 450 degrees F to 525 degrees F for a deck oven, depending on the desired finished pizza characteristics and other factors that vary from one oven and one situation to another.

I suspect that there is a way of introducing artisan methods into the Lehmann NY style, such as using a much higher hydration, and using autolyse or similar rest periods, and stretch and folds, much as you have done with the Reinhart dough recipes. I would expect that you would see an increase in rim size but I have never tried modifying the Lehmann recipe that way to confirm my suspicions.

For your next experiment, I would use the same basic Lehmann dough for both dough balls. The numbers will change a bit, as you noted, but the weight of the dough enhancer blend should still be quite small in relation to the total dough weight.

Peter

Peter,

When I did both attempts yesterday with the basic Lehmann dough with and without the blend, it reminded me of many NY style street pizzas I have eaten in NY.  Even though I tried to be gentle with the way I opened the dough, I saw there was not too much oven spring, as there is supposed to be.  Both pizzas reminded me of better NY style pizzas eaten at different pizza businesses in NY. The lighter rim and bottom crust reminded me of those NY style street pizzas. There was flavor in the crust of both pizzas from the longer cold ferment, which was good.

I believe there would be ways to make changes to the Lehmann dough to achieve more artisan results.  That would be an interesting experiment to try at some point in time.  You did help me achieve those artisan results with the preferment Lehmann dough, the Lehmann Ischia, and the milk kefir Lehmann doughs.

By your posting that I should try the same formula again with the blend, should I do two calculations on the expanded dough calculation tool, one with and one without blend?  The last time I only added the blend to one formula done on the expanded dough calculation tool.

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: Pete-zza on April 13, 2011, 06:18:36 PM
By your posting that I should try the same formula again with the blend, should I do two calculations on the expanded dough calculation tool, one with and one without blend?  The last time I only added the blend to one formula done on the expanded dough calculation tool.

Norma,

I think that I would use the same dough formulation for both dough balls but just add the amount of the dough enhancer blend to one of the dough balls. That means that the dough ball with the dough enhancer blend will weigh a bit more than the other dough ball without the dough enhancer blend. That way, the amount of water, yeast, salt and oil will be the same for both dough balls.

Peter
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on April 13, 2011, 06:47:48 PM
Norma,

I think that I would use the same dough formulation for both dough balls but just add the amount of the dough enhancer blend to one of the dough balls. That means that the dough ball with the dough enhancer blend will weigh a bit more than the other dough ball without the dough enhancer blend. That way, the amount of water, yeast, salt and oil will be the same for both dough balls.

Peter


Peter,

Thanks for your explanation.  It makes sense that the ingredients would remain the same, except for the blend.

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: TXCraig1 on April 14, 2011, 11:10:01 PM
Norma,

What have you learned so far?

CL
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on April 14, 2011, 11:40:30 PM
Norma,

What have you learned so far?

CL

Craig,

I really havenít learned a lot so far.  The Lehmann dough I used the blend with did have a better taste in the crust, but that is about it up to this date.  I am going to try a higher percent of the blend for this coming week to see what happens.  It might take me awhile to see if anything drastically changes the crust or oven spring.  It might not ever happen.  I started out by going hog wild with using so many ingredients in the blend, so I really wonít have a way to gauge what might be the ingredients that might make a difference, if there are any.

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on April 18, 2011, 06:35:27 PM
These are pictures of how the Lehmann blend (7% blend) dough ball and the regular Lehmann dough ball looked today before I went to market.

The first two pictures are of the 7% blend dough and the second two pictures are of the regular Lehmann dough.  The blend Lehmann dough is fermenting differently, but is much softer than my last attempt.

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on April 19, 2011, 06:51:56 AM
I am linking part of this post at Reply 26 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13592.msg135758.html#msg135758  to this thread, because I talked to Bill Vertolli, Vice President, Sales Bakery Ingredients Division) http://www.watson-inc.com/ about getting a trial sample enzyme to maybe try in the blend at some point.  I canít remember the specific enzyme Bill said he would send a trial sample for me, but I thought, it sounded something like protactic (sp.?) .  That could be wrong, and Peter posted at Reply 27 it could be protease enzyme in the last part of his post at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13592.msg135762.html#msg135762

Bill explained to me that the enzyme he would send me would be like comparing how a log would be cut into pieces, by a saw or chain saw, and therefore being able to easier manage than the whole log. If anyone is interested in what traditional baking enzymes (proteases) do this is a link to what they do. http://www.enzymedevelopment.com/pdf/TRADITIONAL%20BAKING%20ENZYMES-PROTEASES%20AIB%205-01.pdf

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on April 19, 2011, 10:54:01 PM
The Lehmann dough with the 7% blend and the regular Lehmann dough were made into pizzas today.  The clear winner was the Lehmann dough with the 7% blend.  The crust had a much better taste (although I canít explain what made it so different), and it was moister in the rim.  The 7%  blend Lehmann dough also had a better oven spring.  Steve and I both agreed the blend Lehmann dough pizza was better.  The only thing that I had to do with the blend Lehmann dough pizza, was to put a pizza screen under the pie, because I thought it was browning too fast.  I didnít have to put a pizza screen under the regular Lehmann dough.

First set of pictures are the Lehmann dough with the 7% blend.  Second set of pictures are the regular Lehmann dough.  Last picture is the two pizzas side by side.  It can be seen on both dough balls how differently they fermented on the bottom of the dough balls.

I also received an email and telephone call today about another company that wants to send me samples of some enzymes.  I donít know what kind of enzymes to ask them about.

Norma  
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on April 19, 2011, 10:57:42 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on April 19, 2011, 11:00:50 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on April 19, 2011, 11:03:17 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on April 19, 2011, 11:05:47 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on April 19, 2011, 11:08:33 PM
end of pictures..blend Lehmann dough pizza slices on the right, in the last picture

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: chickenparm on April 19, 2011, 11:17:06 PM
Norma,those looks so damn good I want a slice right now!
 :pizza:
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on April 19, 2011, 11:30:14 PM
Norma,those looks so damn good I want a slice right now!
 :pizza:

Bill,

Thanks so much for your kind words!  :)  They both were good, but the blend pizza was better.  Wish I could have given you some to try.

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: Pete-zza on April 20, 2011, 11:11:33 AM
Norma,

I agree that the basic Lehmann dough with the dough enhancer blend looks to be an improvement over the basic Lehmann dough without the blend. It's possible that some professionals might be aware of using dough enhancers but do not use them because of cost considerations. You would perhaps need to buy a lot of each ingredient in order to get the costs down to where their use might be justified in a commercial setting.

I think some of the improvements you got are readily explainable. For example, lecithin, baker's grade dry nonfat milk and vital wheat gluten are all well known to produce doughs with greater volume and resulting greater oven spring, even though the mechanisms are different in each case. What we may not quite know is the degree to which each contributes to those results. You would have to do individual tests with each of those ingredients, using the amounts, by baker's percents, recommended for those ingredients to get a better idea as to the extent of their contribution. Diastatic malt might also help produce more sugar, along with a malty flavor, and Maillard reactions and the like to add more flavor to the crust. The baker's grade dry nonfat milk should also contribute flavor to the finished crust. The lecithin and gelatin, together with the oil in the dough and maybe with increased natural sugars, most likely help retain more moisture in the dough, leading to a softer and more tender crumb. Other "natural" products that one might consider include whey, powdered ginger, and blends of milk-related products, such as the dairy blends such as offered by Dutch Valley, at http://www.dutchvalleyfoods.com/food/ItemDetail.aspx/ItemID/129fb46d-3f5f-43a0-8aef-39f33e4d8a70.

FYI, you can see how King Arthur promotes the advantages of its brand of baker's grade dry nonfat milk at its website at http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/items/bakers-special-dry-milk-16-oz. Note, in particular, the photos of the two loaves of bread in cross-section.

At this point, everything you used in your dough enhancer blend is a natural product with known benefits. It is always interesting to try new things to see how they work and whether they offer improvement over what you are now doing, but I don't know how far one can take this exercise. Many dough conditioners are designed for commercial applications that have little to do with pizza dough making and quality per se in a home setting, such as shortening mix times, improving the machining and molding and sheeting of doughs, or reducing staling of finished breads. Other conditioners are used to solve specific problems, such as "buckiness" of certain doughs (hence, the use of products like PZ-44), moisture retention (hence, the use of gels in par-baked crusts), extensibility problems (hence, the use of L-cysteine, glutathione and similar products), and avoidance of bromates (hence, the use of ascorbic acid and azodicarbonamide). As you know, these products are out of reach of home pizza makers because they are sold in bulk quantities at high cost. So, their use, while interesting and educational, has little practical value to most of our members.

The above said, do you have any idea as to where you want to take this project next? For example, might you try your dough enhancer blend with your preferment Lehmann dough such as you now use at market? Or might you increase the amount of blend to see where its outer limit of use is? Or add or subtract ingredients from your current dough enhancer blend?

Peter
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on April 20, 2011, 03:30:07 PM
Norma,

I agree that the basic Lehmann dough with the dough enhancer blend looks to be an improvement over the basic Lehmann dough without the blend. It's possible that some professionals might be aware of using dough enhancers but do not use them because of cost considerations. You would perhaps need to buy a lot of each ingredient in order to get the costs down to where their use might be justified in a commercial setting.

I think some of the improvements you got are readily explainable. For example, lecithin, baker's grade dry nonfat milk and vital wheat gluten are all well known to produce doughs with greater volume and resulting greater oven spring, even though the mechanisms are different in each case. What we may not quite know is the degree to which each contributes to those results. You would have to do individual tests with each of those ingredients, using the amounts, by baker's percents, recommended for those ingredients to get a better idea as to the extent of their contribution. Diastatic malt might also help produce more sugar, along with a malty flavor, and Maillard reactions and the like to add more flavor to the crust. The baker's grade dry nonfat milk should also contribute flavor to the finished crust. The lecithin and gelatin, together with the oil in the dough and maybe with increased natural sugars, most likely help retain more moisture in the dough, leading to a softer and more tender crumb. Other "natural" products that one might consider include whey, powdered ginger, and blends of milk-related products, such as the dairy blends such as offered by Dutch Valley, at http://www.dutchvalleyfoods.com/food/ItemDetail.aspx/ItemID/129fb46d-3f5f-43a0-8aef-39f33e4d8a70.

FYI, you can see how King Arthur promotes the advantages of its brand of baker's grade dry nonfat milk at its website at http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/items/bakers-special-dry-milk-16-oz. Note, in particular, the photos of the two loaves of bread in cross-section.

At this point, everything you used in your dough enhancer blend is a natural product with known benefits. It is always interesting to try new things to see how they work and whether they offer improvement over what you are now doing, but I don't know how far one can take this exercise. Many dough conditioners are designed for commercial applications that have little to do with pizza dough making and quality per se in a home setting, such as shortening mix times, improving the machining and molding and sheeting of doughs, or reducing staling of finished breads. Other conditioners are used to solve specific problems, such as "buckiness" of certain doughs (hence, the use of products like PZ-44), moisture retention (hence, the use of gels in par-baked crusts), extensibility problems (hence, the use of L-cysteine, glutathione and similar products), and avoidance of bromates (hence, the use of ascorbic acid and azodicarbonamide). As you know, these products are out of reach of home pizza makers because they are sold in bulk quantities at high cost. So, their use, while interesting and educational, has little practical value to most of our members.

The above said, do you have any idea as to where you want to take this project next? For example, might you try your dough enhancer blend with your preferment Lehmann dough such as you now use at market? Or might you increase the amount of blend to see where its outer limit of use is? Or add or subtract ingredients from your current dough enhancer blend?

Peter


Peter,

Thanks for explaining each ingredients in the blend and what they could do. I would like to take this project a little farther and see if maybe a higher amount of the blend does give better results. I saw the blend dough did become softer than last week.  I would have thought the higher amount of blend would have made the dough drier than last week, but somehow the combination of ingredients did seem to work better to make the dough softer and also make the blend pizza better. What amount of the blend would you recommend for my next experiment?

 I donít want to purchase anything that is too expensive, but might try some of the leftover bakerís grade dairy whey, non-fat dried milk powder and ginger in one of my experiments with the Lehmann dough in a few weeks.  I see in the link you referenced from Dutch Valley, in the dairy blend they have about the same ingredients I do have here at home.  I also have buttermilk powder here at home.  I wonder if the buttermilk powder would have to be bakerís grade.  I might also try out the bakerís grade of baker's special dry milk (that I have here at home) alone in a higher amount than I tried before in a future experiment.  I donít think right now trying anything on my preferment Lehmann dough will give me any better results, but I could be wrong.  Right now I would like to just experiment on the basic Lehmann dough.  I donít know how other members will benefit from these experiments, but it is still interesting to me to see what happens.

I wanted to ask you another question, if you can answer.  I had emailed Caravan Ingredients http://www.caravaningredients.com/products.aspx and received an email response yesterday and also a return call on my answering machine about the email I had sent asking about maybe getting samples of enzymes. 

This is what the email said:

Good Morning Norma,
 
I received a call from our home office regarding your quest for Enzyme samples.  My questions is what are you trying to improve on your Pizza Dough?  I have several suggestions but would like to better understand what you would like to accomplish - - I can be reached at 540-604-8898 - - Thank you.

I saw in the link you have referenced before that Caravan Ingredients was one of the suppliers of the new enzymes for testing and the quote from that article from Caravan:

ďOur Pristine line of bases and functional ingredients use enzyme technology and are intended to create cleaner- label products,Ē said Troy Boutte, PhD, senior scientist, Caravan Ingredients, Lenexa, KS. Pristine Ferment 250 and Pristine Dough Side 250 are designed to be used together on the sponge and dough side of a bread formulation, respectively. They consist of an enzyme-based dough conditioner and strengthener.Ē

I know probably only a pizza operator would be able to get samples, but I would find it interesting to give one of more of these ingredients a try.  Although I would be able to speak the lingo, I donít know anything about any of these new ďcleanerĒ ingredients.  Do you know if I would talk to the person that emailed me and called me what I would tell them about what kind of problems I am having with pizza dough to be able to get a sample or samples to try?  If I can get any sample or samples, it would be just to find out what happens with them in pizza dough.  Maybe you think this would be taking this exercise too far, since the ingredients wouldnít be the natural ones I am using so far.  If that is what you think, I wonít contact Caravan.

I just had my blood taken for my annual check-up today.  If the numbers arenít good from the blood tests, I might not be doing all these tests or experiments.  I do eat too much pizza and experiment too much with pizzas sometimes.  I guess that is what happens when someone likes pizza so much and also likes to experiment.  :angel:

Thanks for helping me in this project!

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: Pete-zza on April 20, 2011, 05:25:07 PM
Norma,

I would like to take this project a little farther and see if maybe a higher amount of the blend does give better results. I saw the blend dough did become softer than last week.  I would have thought the higher amount of blend would have made the dough drier than last week, but somehow the combination of ingredients did seem to work better to make the dough softer and also make the blend pizza better. What amount of the blend would you recommend for my next experiment?

I think I would go to 10% and see what happens.

Quote
I see in the link you referenced from Dutch Valley, in the dairy blend they have about the same ingredients I do have here at home.  I also have buttermilk powder here at home.  I wonder if the buttermilk powder would have to be bakerís grade.

For the amount of buttermilk powder you would be using, I don't think that I would worry.

Quote
I wanted to ask you another question, if you can answer.  I had emailed Caravan Ingredients http://www.caravaningredients.com/products.aspx and received an email response yesterday and also a return call on my answering machine about the email I had sent asking about maybe getting samples of enzymes. 

....I know probably only a pizza operator would be able to get samples, but I would find it interesting to give one of more of these ingredients a try.  Although I would be able to speak the lingo, I donít know anything about any of these new ďcleanerĒ ingredients.  Do you know if I would talk to the person that emailed me and called me what I would tell them about what kind of problems I am having with pizza dough to be able to get a sample or samples to try?

On matters like enzymes, the people at Caravan are used to dealing with major companies that do mass production of baked goods, not curious home pizza hobbyists or even someone like yourself who is making pizza dough once a week at market. They may well be thinking that you are trying to solve a problem or looking to do something new with your product. There is no harm in asking for samples although they may want to target a particular problem or problems with their enzymes, not to just give you a bunch of samples to play around with, particularly if they do not see you as a future customer with high volume requirements. You might explore what enzymes they have and what they do and target one or more of them that you think would improve your pizzas, and ask for the enzyme samples that might best meet those requirements. As they say, nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Peter
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on April 20, 2011, 06:39:18 PM
Peter,

Thanks for your advise.

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on April 21, 2011, 01:55:43 PM
Norma,

As they say, nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Peter

Peter and anyone that might be interested,

I did email Edna at Caravan Ingredients and told her up front I am not a big pizza business and only operate one day a week.  I also told her about me liking to experiment with pizza dough with different ingredients to see what happens.  This is email I received this morning from Edna.

Hello Norma,
 
All companies start off small.  I had a bakery before I worked for Caravan and I understand how it feels to not get the attention of a large company.  It doesnít matter how big or small you are if you need help - - I will do what I can to help you.  I am in and out of plants until later this evening.  You call me even if itís after hours so that we can get some samples going for you.  Take care

Edna

I then called Edna early this afternoon a we spoke for awhile.  She said she would send me samples of any kind of ingredients I wanted to try in pizza dough.  I told Edna I was most interested in the new ďcleanerĒ products for pizza dough, but would also try other non-natural conditioners if she wanted to send samples.  Edna told me about many ingredients that can do many things for pizza dough.  The one that really seemed interesting to me was something that can be added to dough so a pizza would stay fresh and crispy when heated in the microwave.  She also said there was another that can help with stretching of doughs.  I told Edna I do use all natural products in my pizza dough now for market, but would like to just experiment to see how other natural or non-natural conditioners can help or hinder pizza dough.  I told Edna about me playing around with milk kefir in dough and how that makes dough leaven slower.  She said she does have ingredients that could ferment that faster.  Edna told me she could help me formulate a pretzel dough for pizza, if I wanted.  Edna also said she could even help me with take and bake pizzas.  Edna also told me about ingredients that can make frozen pizza dough so much better.

Edna told me of some great success stories of people that even started making products out of their garages and now are big companies.  The one person used some of Caravanís ingredients and was helped by Edna and now they are the people that formulated the muffins that Starbucks sells.  It was really nice to hear of those success stories. 

Edna was such a nice person and says she comes to my area each year.  She said she would like to meet me when she comes again.  Edna is going to email me the kinds of samples she is going to send me later today or tomorrow.  She said I should have the samples in about a week.

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: Pete-zza on April 21, 2011, 02:47:45 PM
Norma,

Thank you for the update. You got a better response than I would have anticipated. It will be interesting to see what Caravan sends you.

Peter
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: buceriasdon on April 21, 2011, 02:54:42 PM
Wow Norma, A real person with a company interested in a small business, good for them! That's admirable.
Don
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on April 21, 2011, 03:18:20 PM
Norma,

Thank you for the update. You got a better response than I would have anticipated. It will be interesting to see what Caravan sends you.

Peter


Wow Norma, A real person with a company interested in a small business, good for them! That's admirable.
Don

Peter and Don,

I was also surprised that such a big business like Caravan would even bother with me.  It seems like Edna is such a down to earth person and by the way she talked she would help me with whatever I wanted to try with pizza dough.  Maybe because she owned a small business herself at one time, that is why she would also help someone like me. 

I really liked how she told me about the people that were successful that started small.

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: TXCraig1 on April 21, 2011, 03:20:59 PM
Edna told me of some great success stories of people that even started making products out of their garages and now are big companies. 

Jimmy John's Sandwiches is exactly that story.

CL
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on April 21, 2011, 04:03:53 PM
Jimmy John's Sandwiches is exactly that story.

CL

Craig,

I never heard of Jimmy John's Sandwiches.  What is that story, if you don't mind telling me?

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: Ronzo on April 21, 2011, 07:47:39 PM
Jimmy John's Sandwiches is exactly that story.

CL
Jimmy John's makes some pretty good subs for a chain.

Norma, check these sites out for some details on Jimmy John's.
http://www.jimmyjohns.com/company/history.aspx - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_John%27s - http://www.successmagazine.com/Success-Stories-Jimmy-John-Liautaud/PARAMS/article/610/channel/20
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on April 21, 2011, 08:07:16 PM
Ron,

Thanks so much for the links about Jimmy John Liautaud and his success story.  :) I find it amazing there are many success stories such as Jimmy Johnís, just by people trying and not giving up, you never know where life may lead anyone.  I admire Jimmy Johnís.  I also really love subs!   :-D

I think it is a little late in life for me to succeed like Jimmy Johnís did, but I still like to experiment.  I guess to me playing with dough is some kind of therapy.  I look forward each day to learning more about pizza dough and what all goes into it.  At least pizza dough is intriguing.

I donít know where any of these experiments I plan on doing with my own blends or with ingredients that Edna is so kind to offer to me to experiment with, will lead me or others,  but hopefully what is learned from using different blends or enzymes will also help other members to be able to understand how different ingredients might work in pizza dough.

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on April 23, 2011, 10:04:25 AM
Peter,

I think for this coming Tuesday I am going to try the blend at 10% as I said I would, but might also try something like the Land Oí Lakes Super Heat All Dairy Blend Dry Milk which Dutch Valley carries.  Since I do have the high heat dairy whey, high heat non-fat dried milk powder, and the Sweet Cream Buttermilk powder I posted about before, do you have any idea of how much of each of these products I should put in the blend?  In the nutrition facts for the Land Oí Lakes Super Heat All Dairy Blend Dry Milk http://www.dutchvalleyfoods.com/food/images/catimages/272078.pdf it lists the ingredients as whey solids, skim milk solids, and buttermilk solids.  The sweet cream buttermilk powder I have at home just lists the ingredient of sweet cream buttermilk.  I had bought the sweet cream buttermilk powder in bulk at our local Country Store awhile ago. I might put the All Dairy Blend in the dough at 10% of the formula too, if I can figure out how much of each ingredient to try.  Maybe I could even put equal amounts in the blend, but I am not sure.

I also wonder since Steve and I know how a regular Lehmann dough tastes and how it bakes in the deck oven, if I should only do two blends doughs.  I would think Steve and I would know it the blend doughs are different, without making another regular Lehmann dough.

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: Pete-zza on April 23, 2011, 10:38:38 AM
Norma,

The Nutrition Facts for the Land O' Lakes Dairy Blend are not sufficient for me to be able to tell how much of the three milk products to use. However, I think that it is safe to say that the order by weight (and baker's percents) of the dairy blend ingredients is whey, dry milk powder and buttermilk powder. So, if you were to use 10% of the total flour weight, you might use 5% whey, 3% dry milk powder and 2% buttermilk powder. You can use any combination of amounts so long as the ingredients are in the right pecking order and their weights add up to 10% (or any other percent you decide to use).

Ideally, I think it is best to have a control dough but since you and Steve seem to have good "memory" on the basic Lehmann NY style pizza, from the standpoint of color, texture and taste, I don't see any need for you to make a Lehmann "control" dough for the next experiment. But, at some point, especially is you try something rather dramatic, you might reintroduce the Lehmann control dough.

I have mentioned this before but Pizza Hut several years ago used a dairy blend for their pan dough with the same three ingredients and in the same pecking order: http://www.espanol.pizzahut.com/menu/nutritioninfo/documents/ph_ingredients.pdf.

Peter
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on April 23, 2011, 03:22:03 PM
Norma,

The Nutrition Facts for the Land O' Lakes Dairy Blend are not sufficient for me to be able to tell how much of the three milk products to use. However, I think that it is safe to say that the order by weight (and baker's percents) of the dairy blend ingredients is whey, dry milk powder and buttermilk powder. So, if you were to use 10% of the total flour weight, you might use 5% whey, 3% dry milk powder and 2% buttermilk powder. You can use any combination of amounts so long as the ingredients are in the right pecking order and their weights add up to 10% (or any other percent you decide to use).

Ideally, I think it is best to have a control dough but since you and Steve seem to have good "memory" on the basic Lehmann NY style pizza, from the standpoint of color, texture and taste, I don't see any need for you to make a Lehmann "control" dough for the next experiment. But, at some point, especially is you try something rather dramatic, you might reintroduce the Lehmann control dough.

I have mentioned this before but Pizza Hut several years ago used a dairy blend for their pan dough with the same three ingredients and in the same pecking order: http://www.espanol.pizzahut.com/menu/nutritioninfo/documents/ph_ingredients.pdf.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for your advise on how much dairy whey, dry milk powder and buttermilk powder I should try in the dairy blend.  

I know it is always better to have a ďcontrolĒ Lehmann dough for experiments, but both Steve and I are very familiar with how the regular Lehmann dough bakes and tastes in my deck oven.  I can understand if I try something dramatic I will need to make another ďcontrolĒ Lehmann dough.  I told Steve I am going to give him some of the blend to try at his home also to see if he can notice any difference when he makes his Lehmann doughs.  I will also give him some of the dairy blend to try in his Lehman dough. If Steve decides to try any of the blends in his Lehmann dough in his home oven, it will be interesting to see what happens.

I didnít see where you mentioned here on the forum what the ingredients were for the Pizza Hut pan pizza.  It is interesting they did use the same three ingredients, in the same pecking order.  I wonder if their pizza were better then.  

I donít know if you are anyone is interested in reading this patent application, but it tells about using Super Heat Dairy Blend, from Land O' Lakes.  In this patent it says, this product balances out the overall flavor profile, provides a dairy flavor, aids in browning and aids in proper pH of the system. http://www.sumobrain.com/patents/wipo/Refrigerated-yeast-raised-pizza-dough/WO1997042826.html   I also find it interesting in this patent application, for refrigerated pizza dough, that the finished dough temperature is supposed to be about 64 degrees F in bulk, before dividing.  I think in this patent application it says that the Dairy Blend can be added up to 10% of the flour, if I read right.

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: Pete-zza on April 23, 2011, 04:26:58 PM
In this patent it says, this product balances out the overall flavor profile, provides a dairy flavor, aids in browning and aids in proper pH of the system.

Norma,

I thought that the above language sounded familiar. See, for example, Reply 64 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6674.msg58943/topicseen.html#msg58943. You might also find Tom Lehmann's post on using buttermilk in pizza dough of interest.

I read the patent you referenced but did not find the 10% figure that you mentioned for the dairy blend. There is reference to the use of the fatty acid ester to prevent more than 20% and preferably 10% degradation of the rheology characteristics of the dough, but I don't know if that is where you found the 10% figure. There was also reference to 0.09-0.11% figures if that is what you were looking at but that range is for the fatty acid ester. On this point, if you look at the examples at the end of the patent, you will see that the amount of the dairy blend calculates out to about 1.76% of the weight of the base mix. The base mix includes flour, a fatty acid ester and other possible ingredients such as salt, sugar, fats, etc. So, that would suggest that the use of the dairy blend is perhaps more when compared with only the weight of the flour in the base mix but not 10%. The low usage of the dairy blend seems to make sense and also to be in the ballpark when you look at the ingredients list for the Pizza Hut pan dough in the Pizza Hut document at http://www.espanol.pizzahut.com/menu/nutritioninfo/documents/ph_ingredients.pdf. You couldn't have the dairy blend at 10% since that would mean that the salt and fructose are used at greater than 10%, which, of course, cannot be the case.

The low finished dough temperature is described as needed in order to extend the useful window of the dough to about seven days under refrigeration.

Peter
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on April 23, 2011, 05:06:06 PM
Norma,

I thought that the above language sounded familiar. See, for example, Reply 64 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6674.msg58943/topicseen.html#msg58943. You might also find Tom Lehmann's post on using buttermilk in pizza dough of interest.

I read the patent you referenced but did not find the 10% figure that you mentioned for the dairy blend. There is reference to the use of the fatty acid ester to prevent more than 20% and preferably 10% degradation of the rheology characteristics of the dough, but I don't know if that is where you found the 10% figure. There was also reference to 0.09-0.11% figures if that is what you were looking at but that range is for the fatty acid ester. On this point, if you look at the examples at the end of the patent, you will see that the amount of the dairy blend calculates out to about 1.76% of the weight of the base mix. The base mix includes flour, a fatty acid ester and other possible ingredients such as salt, sugar, fats, etc. So, that would suggest that the use of the dairy blend is even less from a baker's percent standpoint when compared with only the weight of the flour in the base mix. The low usage of the dairy blend seems to make sense and also to be in the ballpark when you look at the ingredients list for the Pizza Hut pan dough in the Pizza Hut document at http://www.espanol.pizzahut.com/menu/nutritioninfo/documents/ph_ingredients.pdf. You couldn't have the dairy blend at 10% since that would mean that the salt and fructose are used at greater than 10%, which, of course, cannot be the case.

The low finished dough temperature is described as needed in order to extend the useful window of the dough to about seven days under refrigeration.

Peter

Peter,

I did find the link you referenced and also the link to Tom Lehmann post on buttermilk in dough interesting. I donít know how you remember all the posts you have done, and can reference them so quickly.  I guess now I should only try 5% of the dairy blend in the Lehmann dough.  Is that what you would suggest?  I would think that using 10% dairy blend in the Lehmann dough would make the crust burn. 

I think I messed up in reading over that whole patent application.  I didnít know what a fatty acid ester was and then fouled up, reading the rest of the article.  I didnít read the part about the dough being possibly useful after seven days of refrigeration.

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: Pete-zza on April 23, 2011, 05:26:16 PM
Norma,

I'm not so sure that the 10% figure wouldn't work although I can't say for sure since I have never used milk products at the 10% level. The lactose in the whey should give more crust coloration (with little sweetness) but I think it might be more even than if you used a fair amount of sugar in the dough instead where the combination of caramelization and Maillard reactions might be fairly extensive. The nonfat dry milk powder and the buttermilk powder would be used at reduced levels and, as a result, may therefore not pose problems. If worse comes to worse, you can always slip a pizza screen under the pizza if the bottom bakes up too fast.

I might add that I once tried to make a clone of the PH pan dough in the document I referenced and where I used a dairy blend. However, the amount of the dairy blend, which I put together as you apparently plan to do, was on the low side because I was trying to keep it in the right place in the pecking order. Also, I was using a fair amount of oil in the pan, which had a much more pronounced effect on final bottom crust coloration that the dairy blend. Alas, I was not happy with the results of the pizza overall so I didn't pursue the PH clone pan dough further. Having conducted so many reverse engineering/cloning projects since that time, I think I might be able to do a more competent job today. The downside is that the PH pan dough is now extinct, so there is little information left on that dough since PH went to frozen dough with an entirely different formulation reflecting the frozen nature of the dough.

Peter
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on April 23, 2011, 08:43:09 PM
Norma,

I'm not so sure that the 10% figure wouldn't work although I can't say for sure since I have never used milk products at the 10% level. The lactose in the whey should give more crust coloration (with little sweetness) but I think it might be more even than if you used a fair amount of sugar in the dough instead where the combination of caramelization and Maillard reactions might be fairly extensive. The nonfat dry milk powder and the buttermilk powder would be used at reduced levels and, as a result, may therefore not pose problems. If worse comes to worse, you can always slip a pizza screen under the pizza if the bottom bakes up too fast.

I might add that I once tried to make a clone of the PH pan dough in the document I referenced and where I used a dairy blend. However, the amount of the dairy blend, which I put together as you apparently plan to do, was on the low side because I was trying to keep it in the right place in the pecking order. Also, I was using a fair amount of oil in the pan, which had a much more pronounced effect on final bottom crust coloration that the dairy blend. Alas, I was not happy with the results of the pizza overall so I didn't pursue the PH clone pan dough further. Having conducted so many reverse engineering/cloning projects since that time, I think I might be able to do a more competent job today. The downside is that the PH pan dough is now extinct, so there is little information left on that dough since PH went to frozen dough with an entirely different formulation reflecting the frozen nature of the dough.

Peter

Peter,

I guess I will go with 10% dairy blend of the formula flour,  This wouldnít be the first time I started at the high end.  I also understand I could put a pizza screen under the pizza if it wants to brown to quickly. 

Thanks for telling me why you kept dairy blend on the low side when you were making the PH pan dough.  I also think you could do a better job at reverse engineering PH pan pizzas today, if the PH pan dough wasn't extinct.  You have learn a lot along the way.

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on April 24, 2011, 08:10:38 AM
The Lehmann dough with the 10% blend I used before and the Lehmann dough with the 10% Dairy blend were mixed later last evening.  Both of these doughs were mixed the same, but they turned out much different in texture after mixing.  The final dough temperatures were almost the same, too.  The Lehmann dough ball with the blend I had used before felt about the same, as it was somewhat stiff.  The Lehmann dough ball with the dairy blend was very soft after it was mixed. 

Both of these dough balls are already cold fermenting differently. 

These are pictures top and bottom of both dough balls this morning.  The first two pictures are of the Lehmann dough ball with the blend I used before, by adding 10% blend to the formula flour, instead of the amount I used the last time.  The second two pictures are of the Dairy Blend added to the Lehmann dough at 10% of the formula flour.

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on April 25, 2011, 11:01:45 AM
This post is just to update what both blend dough balls look like this morning.  Both dough balls on the bottom are fermenting differently.  The blend Lehmann dough ball looks almost like the blend dough ball I made last week The dairy blend Lehmann dough ball looks like it is fermenting slower and with different fermentation bubbles.

First set of pictures are the blend Lehmann dough ball and the second set of pictures are the dairy blend Lehmann dough ball.

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on April 26, 2011, 06:59:22 AM
I received another email from Edna this morning.  This is what the email said.

Norma Ė Please give me a few days - - I have not forgotten you - - Thank you.

I didnít email or talk to Edna anymore after my last update.  I will be interested to see what Edna has to say in her next email.  I did sent an email back to Edna this morning and told her I am in no hurry and know she is a busy woman.  I appreciate she is even willing to help me.

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: Saturday Coffee on April 26, 2011, 04:14:49 PM
I found this in one of the copycat recipe books someone sent in an email.
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on April 26, 2011, 09:52:56 PM
I found this in one of the copycat recipe books someone sent in an email.


Saturday Coffee,

Thanks so much for posting the Dough Enhancer you found. :)  Did you ever try that in dough?  I might try that recipe some time in the Lehmann dough to see what happens. I did hear ginger is good for dough.  I did buy some, but didnít try it yet. 

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on April 26, 2011, 10:57:34 PM
The two pizzas were made today with the two different blends.  The Lehmann dough with the added 10% blend (this was the blend I had used in a lower percent before) was the winner again today.  The pizza made with the dairy blend was also good, but didnít get the oven spring that the other blend dough did.  Also the dairy blend wasnít as moist in the rim.  Steve and I both liked the 10% added blend  better in the taste of the crust.  We both thought this was a very good pizza.  The crust was somewhat crispy and stayed that way, even after it cooled.  The dough ball did get softer after the cold ferment and warm-up. 

The diary blend Lehmann pizza crust did have somewhat of a dairy taste, something like using dairy whey in dough. The dairy blend dough was easier to open.   

The first set of pictures are the regular blend I was using before, but with the upped blend to 10% in the Lehmann dough.  The second set of pictures are the dairy blend pizza.  The last picture is both pizzas sitting side by side with the regular blend on the right and the dairy blend on the left.

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on April 26, 2011, 11:00:40 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on April 26, 2011, 11:03:36 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on April 26, 2011, 11:06:50 PM
pictures of dairy blend in Lehmann dough

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on April 26, 2011, 11:09:02 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on April 26, 2011, 11:11:24 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on April 26, 2011, 11:13:47 PM
end of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: Pete-zza on April 27, 2011, 10:18:17 AM
Norma,

Both pizzas look pretty good but not as good, in my opinion, as your standard preferment Lehmann pizza. Can you tell us what you and Steve took away from your latest experiments?

I also noted from the photos that you apparently didn't need to use a pizza screen under the dough enhancer blend Lehmann pizza, even at 10%, but I see that you used a screen under the dairy blend Lehmann pizza, also at 10%. Was the dairy blend Lehmann pizza baking too quickly or developing a darker bottom faster than you wanted? The photos of the bottom crusts seem to suggest that the dairy blend Lehmann pizza developed a darker bottom crust than the dough enhancer Lehmann pizza.

Where do you go now with this project?

Peter
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on April 27, 2011, 11:08:34 AM
Norma,

Both pizzas look pretty good but not as good, in my opinion, as your standard preferment Lehmann pizza. Can you tell us what you and Steve took away from your latest experiments?

I also noted from the photos that you apparently didn't need to use a pizza screen under the dough enhancer blend Lehmann pizza, even at 10%, but I see that you used a screen under the dairy blend Lehmann pizza, also at 10%. Was the dairy blend Lehmann pizza baking too quickly or developing a darker bottom faster than you wanted? The photos of the bottom crusts seem to suggest that the dairy blend Lehmann pizza developed a darker bottom crust than the dough enhancer Lehmann pizza.

Where do you go now with this project?

Peter

Peter,

I donít think either of these pizzas looked as good as the preferment Lehmann dough pizza I normally make, but the taste in the crust of the regular blend was really good.  I think better than my normal preferment Lehmann dough crusts. I canít pinpoint what was so good about it, but it was different.  The bottom crust of the dough enhancer pizza was also crisper than my preferment Lehmann dough crusts.

What Steve and I took away from these last experiments were the regular blend at a higher percent of the formula flour did make a better pizza than my last two attempts. The oven spring even became a little better using a higher percent of the dough enhancer I have been trying. I am not sure if adding more regular blend in the formula will add or detract from the final crust of the Lehmann dough blend pizza.  I find it interesting how differently the bottom of this dough ferments (with the first dough enchancer) and when the dough is first made it is not soft, but then becomes softer after the cold fermentation.  I donít know which one of the ingreidents in the blend  causes that.  I gave Steve some of both of these dough enhancers, so if he has time to try either of them in his home oven with his Lehmann dough, it will be interesting to see his results.

The dairy blend Lehmann dough crust was developing a browner bottom crust quicker than I wanted.  That is why I used the pizza screen.  I donít know why the dairy blend crust wanted to become darker faster than the dough enhancer Lehmann dough crust.  It could have been the dairy products that caused the bottom to brown faster, but I am not sure. 
                                                                                                                                             
I am not sure where I want to go with this project.  I might add ginger powder to either of these dough enhancers or might try upping the percents of the blends in both of these test doughs.  What do you think the best approach would be for my next attempts?  I have no idea of how much ginger powder to try in either of the two dough enhancers.

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: Pete-zza on April 27, 2011, 02:04:26 PM
Norma,

You might consider a larger dough batch with the dough enhancer to see if you get similar results. I would think that you might save a lot of time and effort if you are able to offer the dough enhancer version of the Lehmann NY style pizza at market, albeit maybe at slightly higher cost of production and provided, of course, that you can get into the market to be able to make the dough before your Tuesday gig.

I suspect that the pizza with the dairy blend browned faster because of the three dried milk products in the dairy blend, and a total use at 10%. In your dough enhancer blend, the only dairy product is the Hormel dry milk powder. It is used at a rate of about 42% of the total weight of the dough enhancer blend. Apparently that is not high enough to have a similar browning effect. Also, the dairy whey in your dairy blend is known to produce enhanced crust coloration. Dairy whey is not an ingredient used in your dough enhancer blend.

I'd like to see you use some dry ginger at some point. However, the way you would want to do it is to repeat the three-stage drill as given at Reply 36 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13385.msg133849.html#msg133849 and make up a fresh batch with the ginger powder. It would perhaps take hours of math to try to figure out amounts and percentages if one were to just add some ginger powder to what remains of your original dough enhancer blend. It would involve far less work just to do the basic calculations as described in Reply 36 referenced above and make a fresh batch than to try to tackle the more involved math adding the ginger powder to the remaining dough enhancer blend. As an alternative, you could try the dough enhancer blend at Reply 116 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13385.msg136906.html#msg136906, maybe in a scaled down version. However, that would mean starting an entirely new experiment.

If you decide to try the ginger in a new dough enhancer batch, you might want to weigh an amount of it several times in order to get a weight for one teaspoon, just as you did with some of the other ingredients.

Peter
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on April 27, 2011, 03:39:55 PM
Norma,

You might consider a larger dough batch with the dough enhancer to see if you get similar results. I would think that you might save a lot of time and effort if you are able to offer the dough enhancer version of the Lehmann NY style pizza at market, albeit maybe at slightly higher cost of production and provided, of course, that you can get into the market to be able to make the dough before your Tuesday gig.

I suspect that the pizza with the dairy blend browned faster because of the three dried milk products in the dairy blend, and a total use at 10%. In your dough enhancer blend, the only dairy product is the Hormel dry milk powder. It is used at a rate of about 42% of the total weight of the dough enhancer blend. Apparently that is not high enough to have a similar browning effect. Also, the dairy whey in your dairy blend is known to produce enhanced crust coloration. Dairy whey is not an ingredient used in your dough enhancer blend.

I'd like to see you use some dry ginger at some point. However, the way you would want to do it is to repeat the three-stage drill as given at Reply 36 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13385.msg133849.html#msg133849 and make up a fresh batch with the ginger powder. It would perhaps take hours of math to try to figure out amounts and percentages if one were to just add some ginger powder to what remains of your original dough enhancer blend. It would involve far less work just to do the basic calculations as described in Reply 36 referenced above and make a fresh batch than to try to tackle the more involved math adding the ginger powder to the remaining dough enhancer blend. As an alternative, you could try the dough enhancer blend at Reply 116 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13385.msg136906.html#msg136906, maybe in a scaled down version. However, that would mean starting an entirely new experiment.

If you decide to try the ginger in a new dough enhancer batch, you might want to weigh an amount of it several times in order to get a weight for one teaspoon, just as you did with some of the other ingredients.

Peter

Peter,

What I might try with the dough enhancer for this coming week is to put it into the preferment Lehmann dough.  I might make just one dough ball (of my regular preferment Lehmann dough), by starting a poolish on Friday and putting the dough enhancer into the final dough on Monday for one dough ball.  I can see the advantage of trying a larger batch of regular Lehmann dough to see what happens with a larger batch, but I really like a more Artisan looking pizza.  I know my preferment Lehmann dough for one dough ball is for a larger pizza than I have been testing, but I could still used 10% of the dough enhancer for the total final dough flour. 

In the next few days I will think about if I want to add ginger the dough enhancer.  I would like to see how a pizza would turn out with that, but donít know if I want to go though that drill again.  If I have time to go though the drill again, I might try adding ginger that way or use the alternative of using what was suggested by Saturday Coffee at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13385.msg136906.html#msg136906 scaled down.

Thanks again for your advise,

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: Saturday Coffee on April 30, 2011, 09:56:35 PM
Saturday Coffee,

Thanks so much for posting the Dough Enhancer you found. :)  Did you ever try that in dough?  I might try that recipe some time in the Lehmann dough to see what happens. I did hear ginger is good for dough.  I did buy some, but didnít try it yet. 

Norma
I have not tried it.  I tend to collect way more recipes than I could ever try.  I never heard of ginger being good for dough.  But just for good measure I may add ginger to my next batch dough.       
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on April 30, 2011, 10:46:10 PM
I have not tried it.  I tend to collect way more recipes than I could ever try.  I never heard of ginger being good for dough.  But just for good measure I may add ginger to my next batch dough.        

Saturday Coffee,

I also have many recipes I have never tried.

This is a homemade dough conditioner that Peter referenced before by tammysrecipes.  http://www.tammysrecipes.com/node/2814  It says in this dough enhancer of hers that yeast love ginger.  I never tried ginger either in dough.  If you try it out in pizza dough, I would be interested in seeing what kind of results you get.  Grainlady on this forum also does have other ideas for a homemade dough improver.  She says spices such as ginger, ground caraway, cardamom, cinnamom, mace, nutmeg, and thyme all improve yeast activity. Many bakers add a pinch of ginger to dough for this reason. http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/cooking/msg032131336797.html This is also another article about different kinds of dough enchancerís, which include ginger at the breadmachinedigest.com http://www.breadmachinedigest.com/tips/dough-enhancers-and-how-to-use-them.php and http://www.breadmachinedigest.com/recipes/enhancer-recipes/super-bread-fresh-dough-enhancer.php

Thanks again for providing your recipe for a dough enhancer!  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: Pete-zza on May 01, 2011, 09:22:00 AM
Norma,

It really isn't that difficult to calculate how much ground ginger to use if you want to add some to your current dough enhancer blend.

According to the SelfNutritionData website at http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/spices-and-herbs/191/2, one teaspoon of ground ginger weighs 1.67 grams, or 0.055879 ounces. The Malisa website at http://concasse.blogspot.com/2009/04/natural-dough-conditioner-enhancer.html says to use 1/4 teaspoon of ground ginger for a loaf of bread. Previously, we assumed 3 1/2 cups of flour for a loaf of bread. So, for one cup of flour, the amount of ground ginger to use is (1/4)/(3 1/2) = 0.07143 t. That is a tiny bit over a 1/16 t. ("pinch") mini-measuring spoon. Its weight is 0.00399 ounces, or 0.11315 grams. So, if my math is right, adding the ground ginger to the rest of the ingredients and quantities of ingredients you used to make your original dough enhancer blend we get the following:

Amounts for One Cup (4.25oz) Better for Bread Flour
Lecithin granules: 0.24339oz/6.9g
Hormel high heat non-fat dry milk powder: 0.4562oz/12.93g
Knox gelatin: 0.025029oz/0.71g
Hodgson Mill vital wheat gluten: 0.31746oz/9g
Diastatic malt (assume 1t/3 cups flour): 0.0293945oz/0.83g
Vitamin C: 0.005669oz/0.16g
Ground ginger:0.00399oz/0.11315g
Total weight: 1.0811325oz/30.65g

As you can see, the amount of ground ginger is so small that it doesn't move the needle much. Unfortunately, you would have to make a new batch just to include the ginger if you want to keep all of the numbers in proper relationship. You would also perhaps want to measure an amount of the new batch (e.g, 1/8-cup) to calculate the weight of one teaspoon so that you can convert the weight of the blend used in a given dough formulation using the expanded dough calculating tool into a volume measurement if that is more convenient than trying to weigh the expanded dough calculating tool amount on a scale.

Peter
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on May 01, 2011, 10:06:51 AM
Norma,

It really isn't that difficult to calculate how much ground ginger to use if you want to add some to your current dough enhancer blend.

According to the SelfNutritionData website at http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/spices-and-herbs/191/2, one teaspoon of ground ginger weighs 1.67 grams, or 0.055879 ounces. The Malisa website at http://concasse.blogspot.com/2009/04/natural-dough-conditioner-enhancer.html says to use 1/4 teaspoon of ground ginger for a loaf of bread. Previously, we assumed 3 1/2 cups of flour for a loaf of bread. So, for one cup of flour, the amount of ground ginger to use is (1/4)/(3 1/2) = 0.07143 t. That is a tiny bit over a 1/16 t. ("pinch") mini-measuring spoon. Its weight is 0.00399 ounces, or 0.11315 grams. So, if my math is right, adding the ground ginger to the rest of the ingredients and quantities of ingredients you used to make your original dough enhancer blend we get the following:

Amounts for One Cup (4.25oz) Better for Bread Flour
Lecithin granules: 0.24339oz/6.9g
Hormel high heat non-fat dry milk powder: 0.4562oz/12.93g
Knox gelatin: 0.025029oz/0.71g
Hodgson Mill vital wheat gluten: 0.31746oz/9g
Diastatic malt (assume 1t/3 cups flour): 0.0293945oz/0.83g
Vitamin C: 0.005669oz/0.16g
Ground ginger:0.00399oz/0.11315g
Total weight: 1.0811325oz/30.65g

As you can see, the amount of ground ginger is so small that it doesn't move the needle much. Unfortunately, you would have to make a new batch just to include the ginger if you want to keep all of the numbers in proper relationship. You would also perhaps want to measure an amount of the new batch (e.g, 1/8-cup) to calculate the weight of one teaspoon so that you can convert the weight of the blend used in a given dough formulation using the expanded dough calculating tool into a volume measurement if that is more convenient than trying to weigh the expanded dough calculating tool amount on a scale.

Peter


Peter,

I had thought about adding ginger to my current dough enhancer blend, but as usual, I really was stumped on the math part. I always trust you math calculations. Thanks so much for figuring out the math part for me too add the ginger to my current dough enchancer blend.  I donít mind making another batch of dough enhancer blend to include the ground ginger.  I have the Mc Cormick brand of ground ginger at home.  Do you think it matters if I donít grind all the ingredients together.  I didnít do that before, but now thought after having using my Cuisinart spice and nut grinder to grind all the ingredients for the dough enhancer blend. Do you think grinding the ingredients for the blend in the Cuisinart would be better?

Hopefully we will see if adding ginger to the dough enchancer blend will make a better pizza crust.  I also did make the poolish for the preferment Lehmann dough on Friday for one dough ball.  Do you think I should just use the enhancer blend I used last week for that or should I include the enhancer blend with the ginger. I wonít be mixing the final dough until tomorrow.  I am going to make a regular Lehmann dough today with the added ginger in the enhancer blend.

Thanks again for your help!  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: Pete-zza on May 01, 2011, 10:42:24 AM
Norma,

Since the Malika instructions did not say to pulverize the ingredients in a grinder, I don't think I would do it. That is something that you might want to try in a future experiment. Offhand, I don't see anything in the ingredients list you are now using that would be materially hurt by grinding, at least a brief grinding (I am thinking here about the lecithin and vitamin C), but you would end up with a finer blend that would weigh more per unit volume (e.g., a teaspoon) than the ungrinded blend because of compaction dynamics. That would mean that you would have to weigh the ground version on your scale rather than using a volume measurement.

With respect to the preferment Lehmann dough, I think I would stick with your current blend so that we have another comparison with the other pizzas you made recently with the current blend. That way, we don't end up scratching our heads over whether certain results were due to the ground ginger rather than something else. Using the dough enhancer blend with ground ginger for a basic Lehmann dough should also allow another comparison with your prior pizzas made using your current blend without the ground ginger.

Peter
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on May 01, 2011, 12:11:07 PM
Norma,

Since the Malika instructions did not say to pulverize the ingredients in a grinder, I don't think I would do it. That is something that you might want to try in a future experiment. Offhand, I don't see anything in the ingredients list you are now using that would be materially hurt by grinding, at least a brief grinding (I am thinking here about the lecithin and vitamin C), but you would end up with a finer blend that would weigh more per unit volume (e.g., a teaspoon) than the ungrinded blend because of compaction dynamics. That would mean that you would have to weigh the ground version on your scale rather than using a volume measurement.

With respect to the preferment Lehmann dough, I think I would stick with your current blend so that we have another comparison with the other pizzas you made recently with the current blend. That way, we don't end up scratching our heads over whether certain results were due to the ground ginger rather than something else. Using the dough enhancer blend with ground ginger for a basic Lehmann dough should also allow another comparison with your prior pizzas made using your current blend without the ground ginger.

Peter

Peter,

It makes sense, now that I think about it, not to used the grinder, because then I would end up with finer blend that would weigh more per unit volume.

I also think your advise to use the enhancer blend I have used for the last few weeks in the preferment Lehmann dough is a good idea.  I can understand, how we wouldnít know what the results would have been with the regular enchancer blend without the ginger.

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on May 01, 2011, 11:32:06 PM
This post is to say the dough ball with the added ginger in the blend feels about the same as the other dough balls I have made in this thread, with the blend. The dough isnít really soft, as it was before, too.  The dough is kinda stiff.  I could smell a faint hint of the ginger when smelling it.  Since I didnít make this dough until this evening, I have left it sit at room temperature for a few hours to let it ferment some more.  The final dough temperature on this dough was 75.6 degrees F.

Picture of dough ball with ginger in the blend.

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on May 02, 2011, 09:14:16 AM
The preferment Lehmann dough with the 10% blend enhancer was mixed this morning.  I used 23.45 grams of the blend in the final dough.  I also added 4 more grams of water, since the formula I have for one dough ball is 61% hydration.  The preferment Lehmann dough with the blend added, also seems more stiff. 

Pictures of regular Lehmann dough ball top and bottom with added ginger in the blend, this morning. The dough ball with the blend with ginger is also fermenting differently, like the other doughs with the blend, as can be seen on the bottom of the dough ball. 3rd picture is of preferment Lehmann dough ball with the added blend this morning.

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on May 04, 2011, 07:37:54 AM
The preferment Lehmann dough with the 10% blend added to the final dough flour was made yesterday.  Since the poolish was made Friday (without the blend), and the 10% blend was only incorporated into the final dough on Monday, this dough was much harder to open.  I partially opened the dough and Steve finished opening the dough.  Both of us agreed that this dough ball was much harder to open than a regular preferment Lehmann dough ball.  Any of the blend dough balls I have made so far have cold fermented more than one day. 

The taste of the crust was better than a preferment Lehmann dough.  The rim also had good oven spring.  This pizza wasnít exactly 16" as my normal preferment Lehmann dough pizza are, because I now make my dough balls heavier, than when the formula was set-forth for a 16" preferment Lehmann dough ball for one pizza at Reply 225 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg90226.html#msg90226

It was interesting to see how this blend performed in the preferment Lehmann dough. 

Pictures below

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on May 04, 2011, 07:40:46 AM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on May 04, 2011, 07:42:58 AM
end of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on May 04, 2011, 08:02:38 AM
The regular Lehmann dough with the added ginger to the blend pizza was made yesterday.  This was a 12" pizza.  I donít know if it can be seen on the pictures, but there was some specks of something a different color (like a bright yellow), in different parts of the dough.  This dough was easy to open and it also had good oven spring.  In comparison to the two pizzas  made with the blends yesterday, this pizza had the best taste in the crust.  There was just something different about it that made it more complex. 

Pictures below

Norma 
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on May 04, 2011, 08:05:48 AM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on May 04, 2011, 08:07:44 AM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on May 04, 2011, 08:09:07 AM
end of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: Pete-zza on May 04, 2011, 09:08:56 AM
Norma,

It is interesting that you preferred the basic Lehmann crust using the dough enhancer blend with the ginger over the preferment Lehmann crust using the dough enhancer blend without the ginger. There are now so many moving parts to your pizzas in this thread, and especially so with the preferment Lehmann dough with dough enhancers, that it is difficult to know what is affecting what. However, generally the ginger is intended to affect the yeast more than anything else in the dough. Maybe it has other effects that have not been noted before. Apart from repeating the experiments to see if you get the same results, which is always a good idea in any comparative analysis, I think a logical next experiment would be to use the dough enhancer blend with the ginger with the preferment Lehmann dough to see if the dough is easier to open up and also if the finished crust tastes better with the ginger. If so, and if the results can be repeated on a consistent basis, then you might decide to use the ginger blend with your preferment Lehmann dough at market. Of course, there may be other reasons for sticking with your current preferment Lehmann dough, apart from taste.

Peter
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on May 04, 2011, 01:28:24 PM
Norma,

It is interesting that you preferred the basic Lehmann crust using the dough enhancer blend with the ginger over the preferment Lehmann crust using the dough enhancer blend without the ginger. There are now so many moving parts to your pizzas in this thread, and especially so with the preferment Lehmann dough with dough enhancers, that it is difficult to know what is affecting what. However, generally the ginger is intended to affect the yeast more than anything else in the dough. Maybe it has other effects that have not been noted before. Apart from repeating the experiments to see if you get the same results, which is always a good idea in any comparative analysis, I think a logical next experiment would be to use the dough enhancer blend with the ginger with the preferment Lehmann dough to see if the dough is easier to open up and also if the finished crust tastes better with the ginger. If so, and if the results can be repeated on a consistent basis, then you might decide to use the ginger blend with your preferment Lehmann dough at market. Of course, there may be other reasons for sticking with your current preferment Lehmann dough, apart from taste.

Peter

Peter,

In all the times I have tried any of these blends in the Lehmann dough in, I have seen the dough ball is stiff after the blend is mixed in.  After a few days the dough ball does become softer.  I donít know what is going on in the dough, but something must be going on that makes the dough softer after a few days or at least two days, which is what I tried in the last experiment with the blend with ginger in the Lehmann dough. 

I think it would be a good idea to try the blend with the ginger in the preferment Lehmann dough, but think I would at least have to start the poolish on a Thursday and mix the final dough on Sunday to give a fair comparison, since the dough does seem to become softer at least over a two day period.  The final dough I used for the preferment Lehmann dough only had one day to cold ferment.

I donít know if Steve will see what I have posted about the regular Lehmann dough with the blend of ginger added yesterday, but I think this was his favorite crust.  I donít know what gave it a more complex taste, but it also tasted that way to me too.

Maybe I should also just add ginger to a regular Lehmann dough to see what happens.

Norma 
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on May 09, 2011, 09:45:49 AM
I decided this past weekend, I had so many other experiments going for tomorrow, that I would  only make one test dough ball with a dough enhancer for Tuesday.  I had posted I was going to use ginger for the dough enhancer, but decided yesterday I would add ginger and ascorbic acid to the Lehmann dough to see what happens.  I did add the same amounts of ginger and ascorbic acid that I had put into the blend before. The dough with the ginger and ascorbic acid was mixed yesterday.  This time the dough was really soft (softer than usual), and not stiff like when I had been putting a blend into the other Lehmann doughs I was testing.  The final dough temperature was 75.4 degrees F.

If anyone is following this thread, and doesnít remember, I have been using Better for Bread flour in all these experiments when using a dough enhancer or blend.

Pictures of dough ball this morning with added ginger and ascorbic acid.

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on May 11, 2011, 03:18:19 PM
The 12" Lehmann pizza was made that had a blend of ginger and ascorbic acid added to the dough at market yesterday.  The taste of this crust was different than a regular Lehmann dough crust, but what interested Steve and me the most, was how the crust and rim were much crisper than a regular Lehmann dough crust.  Each bite had a nice crisp texture.  I am not sure whether it was the added ginger or added ascorbic acid that made the crust so crisp.  The bottom crust of this pizza also browned differently than my other pizzas have in my deck oven.  I never baked a Lehmann pizza that had such a crisp crust, unless it was another type of dough and was a thinner, lower hydration dough.  Another thing that interested Steve and me was the crumb was still moist, even with the crisp rim.

I also donít know why the dough ball that seemed softer when mixed, became more stiff after the cold ferment.  This dough was left to warm-up for 2 hrs.

Pictures below

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on May 11, 2011, 03:20:49 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on May 11, 2011, 03:22:59 PM
end of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: Pete-zza on May 11, 2011, 03:48:31 PM
Norma,

Was the Lehmann crust against which you compared the 12" pizza with the ginger and ascorbic acid also 12"?

Peter
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on May 11, 2011, 06:22:51 PM
Norma,

Was the Lehmann crust against which you compared the 12" pizza with the ginger and ascorbic acid also 12"?

Peter

Peter,

No, the Lehmann crust I compared the ascorbic acid and ginger pizza to wasnít a 12" Lehmann pizza.  I donít think I ever made a 12" Lehmann dough pizza before this thread.  All the blends I have been using so far in these experiments have been 12" Lehmann pizzas, except for the one I did with a preferment Lehmann dough and that was a 16" pizza.  The only reason I am experimenting with 12" Lehmann pizzas in this thread is because I am using Better for Bread flour I didnít want to use too much flour in these experiments.  

Would it make a much bigger difference if I had used the ascorbic acid and ginger in a bigger pizza?

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: Pete-zza on May 11, 2011, 07:38:51 PM
Norma,

What I was wondering is if the bake times for a 12" pizza and a 16" pizza in your oven are different and, if so, how do you know when they reach the same final condition? For example, if the 12" pizza were baked proportionately longer than the 16" pizza, might not the rim be dryer and crispier? Also, if the sauce and cheese quantities are not proportionate, that might also have an effect on the bake times. I would think that the best comparison is to make two dough balls for two 12" pizzas, with one of the dough balls having the ascorbic acid and ginger, using the same weights of sauce and cheese on both pizzas, and, if possible, baking them simultaneously in your deck oven and then pulling them at the same time. This would remove pizza size and related aspects as variables.

Peter
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on May 11, 2011, 09:25:43 PM
Norma,

What I was wondering is if the bake times for a 12" pizza and a 16" pizza in your oven are different and, if so, how do you know when they reach the same final condition? For example, if the 12" pizza were baked proportionately longer than the 16" pizza, might not the rim be dryer and crispier? Also, if the sauce and cheese quantities are not proportionate, that might also have an effect on the bake times. I would think that the best comparison is to make two dough balls for two 12" pizzas, with one of the dough balls having the ascorbic acid and ginger, using the same weights of sauce and cheese on both pizzas, and, if possible, baking them simultaneously in your deck oven and then pulling them at the same time. This would remove pizza size and related aspects as variables.

Peter

Peter,

I donít usually time bake times with any of my pizzas at market.  I just keep opening the door on the deck oven and rotating the pies or using a screen if I think the bottom is getting to dark.  My deck temperatures vary all over the place according to where the pies are placed.  I donít understand why that is, but usually a smaller pie will be finished in about the same amount of time.  My deck oven doesnít lose deck temperatures as fast as my home oven using a pizza stone.  I can let the door open for a much longer time, and the deck temperatures donít fall much.  As can be seen in many pictures I have posted for reference to how the pies are baking, my deck oven does bake differently than my home oven.  I guess it is the mass of deck oven stones that helps, and also I can hear my gas turning on much quicker than my home oven would reheat the coil in my electric home oven.  If I would let my regular home oven door open as long as I do at market, my pizza stone would lose more heat.  I also guess, because there is less head room in my deck oven, than my home oven, that also helps to maintain the temperatures. 

I do have a timer at market and can make two Lehmann doughs next week, (one with ginger and
ascorbic acid and one without) to see what happens, but if I put them (with the same amount of cheese and sauce), almost simultaneously in the oven, I still am not sure if they will bake the same because of the different temperatures of my deck stone.  On the right side of my deck oven the temperature seem to be higher than the left side.  My top deck also is a lower in temperature.  I donít know why that is either, because I think heat would rise and make the top deck hotter, but it doesnít.  Maybe the bottom deck stays hotter because that is where the gas burner is.  The gas burner goes underneath the middle of the whole bottom of my bottom deck. 

I didnít use a screen for this pizza and just wondered why the crust did get lighter in the bottom of the crust and was also crisper.  I hadnít seen that before in my deck oven.  Usually I take a pie out of the oven when the cheese looks finished. 

If you still think what you posted would be a good test, I will do it next week.  I know you are always looking at variables.

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: Pete-zza on May 11, 2011, 10:15:23 PM
Norma,

The reason why I focused on the oven and pizza size is because I have never read anything that associated the use of ascorbic acid and ginger with the finished crust characteristics you described. What I have read--and I am sure you also have read--is that the ascorbic acid is supposed to create a more acidic environment for the yeast and the ginger is supposed to "kick start" the yeast. It also concerned me that just about all the articles I read about the ginger used the same or similar language, as though everyone was citing and quoting everyone else. When I see that, I get nervous. With a little bit more research, I found a cached post on a forum where a poster analyzed ginger from a chemical standpoint and was hard pressed to see how it helped a dough at all (other than giving a bit of pungent taste).

Getting back to your oven and doing another experiment, I think it should be possible to bake the two pizzas in succession, using the same oven real estate for the two pizzas, assuming that you let that space get back to the same temperature after baking the first pizza. With the pizzas being in close succession, I think that if you sample the crusts of both pizzas after they come out of the oven and cool down to be able to eat you should be able to detect any textural and flavor differences between the two pizza crusts. As previously discussed, you would want to use the same weights of sauce and cheese on both pizzas.

I will leave to you to decide if you should run another experiment using the ascorbic acid and ginger. You might not give this experiment as high a priority as other experiments that you would like to conduct at market.

Peter
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on May 11, 2011, 11:12:51 PM
Norma,

The reason why I focused on the oven and pizza size is because I have never read anything that associated the use of ascorbic acid and ginger with the finished crust characteristics you described. What I have read--and I am sure you also have read--is that the ascorbic acid is supposed to create a more acidic environment for the yeast and the ginger is supposed to "kick start" the yeast. It also concerned me that just about all the articles I read about the ginger used the same or similar language, as though everyone was citing and quoting everyone else. When I see that, I get nervous. With a little bit more research, I found a cached post on a forum where a poster analyzed ginger from a chemical standpoint and was hard pressed to see how it helped a dough at all (other than giving a bit of pungent taste).

Getting back to your oven and doing another experiment, I think it should be possible to bake the two pizzas in succession, using the same oven real estate for the two pizzas, assuming that you let that space get back to the same temperature after baking the first pizza. With the pizzas being in close succession, I think that if you sample the crusts of both pizzas after they come out of the oven and cool down to be able to eat you should be able to detect any textural and flavor differences between the two pizza crusts. As previously discussed, you would want to use the same weights of sauce and cheese on both pizzas.

I will leave to you to decide if you should run another experiment using the ascorbic acid and ginger. You might not give this experiment as high a priority as other experiments that you would like to conduct at market.

Peter

Peter or anyone that is interested,

So far on this thread these are where I made regular 12" Lehmann dough pizzas at Reply 74 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13385.msg135071.html#msg135071 and next posts and at Reply 90 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13385.msg135906.html#msg135906 and following posts.  I think after those posts is were where I stopped making a test regular 12" Lehmann doughs.  I havenít changed my temperatures of my deck oven since starting this thread.
Those pizzas didnít have the crispness that the pizza I made on Tuesday had.

The only thing I did different in this recent blend is upped the ginger to 3 pinch measuring spoons and only used 1 pinch of ascorbic acid in the blend.  I just wanted to see what adding more ginger to the blend would do.  I said to Steve that the crust almost tasted like a sourdough curst, but Steve didnít agree with me on that, but he did agree with me on the crispness.

I did post on where I had purchased smaller measuring spoons at Reply 59 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13385.msg134626.html#msg134626

I like you. didnít read anything before that suggested that ginger would change the crust crispness, like it did in my experiment.  I donít know if it might have been my deck oven or what happened.

I think this last experiment warrants another experiment with the blend I used and also a regular Lehmann dough pizza.  It just made Steve and I wonder why the rim and bottom of the crust was so crisp and didnít seem to become really brown.

I think I still have a leftover slice in my refrigerator I brought home from market, to reheat.  I also think I brought home a slice of the Bisquick cheese-garlic pizza and a Lehmann dough manteca slice.  I will look and see if I brought a slice of all of them home.  I shouldnít be eating all this pizza, but at least my blood levels were better than last year, so I guess it will be okay.  ::)

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on May 11, 2011, 11:46:16 PM
At least to me, this thread on the Fresh Loaf is interesting, even though there are no conclusions and seems like trying dough enhancers aren't popular, at least in bread.
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/18034/bread-dough-enhancer

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on May 12, 2011, 08:09:59 AM
For anyone that is interested, I donít know how ascorbic acid, type or brand of flours, baking times, mixing times and protein content of flours are related, but in these tests it seems like the protein content, ash content, etc. and proofing times do matter when using ascorbic acid.  http://www.cazv.cz/2003/CJFS4_03/3-Hruskova-Novotna.pdf

To add to that mess, now also ginger was added, so I donít know what the two combined ingredients of ascorbic acid and ginger will do or wonít do, especially since I donít have all the equipment needed to do specialized tests with ascorbic acid and ginger.

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: Pete-zza on May 12, 2011, 12:26:33 PM
To add to that mess, now also ginger was added, so I donít know what the two combined ingredients of ascorbic acid and ginger will do or wonít do, especially since I donít have all the equipment needed to do specialized tests with ascorbic acid and ginger.

Norma,

Thank you for posting the links to the two articles. I always enjoy reading stuff like that. I'm sure that you noted that the Czech article was with respect to the effects of ascorbic acid as added to flour as opposed to ascorbic acid that is added to yeast.

I agree with you that the types of experiments that you have been conducting with the ascorbic acid and ginger are perhaps best left to a controlled laboratory setting. I personally would never trust, or draw conclusions from, the results of only a single experiment. I would have to conduct the identical experiment several times, along with controls, before I would attempt to draw conclusions and, even then, I would be relying on taste/texture memory, which is also suspect, at least in my case with my tastebuds. I believe that what you and I have read on the subject is based mostly on anecdotal evidence, mostly by home bakers. It is perhaps that anecdotal evidence that becomes gospel on the internet when that evidence become viral.

Peter
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on May 12, 2011, 02:36:09 PM
Norma,

Thank you for posting the links to the two articles. I always enjoy reading stuff like that. I'm sure that you noted that the Czech article was with respect to the effects of ascorbic acid as added to flour as opposed to ascorbic acid that is added to yeast.

I agree with you that the types of experiments that you have been conducting with the ascorbic acid and ginger are perhaps best left to a controlled laboratory setting. I personally would never trust, or draw conclusions from, the results of only a single experiment. I would have to conduct the identical experiment several times, along with controls, before I would attempt to draw conclusions and, even then, I would be relying on taste/texture memory, which is also suspect, at least in my case with my tastebuds. I believe that what you and I have read on the subject is based mostly on anecdotal evidence, mostly by home bakers. It is perhaps that anecdotal evidence that becomes gospel on the internet when that evidence become viral.

Peter

Peter,

Yes, I did note that the ascorbic acid in the Czeh article was with respect of effects of ascorbic acid as added to flour.  I had also searched on what ascorbic acid really does in making dough and what I mostly read was like what scott r had posted at the beginning of this thread. The ascorbic acid was mostly to replace or act like using bromated flour. 

I wouldnít ever think my test results are conclusive, even if I did a number of experiments, but find how the taste of the crust changes with each experiment interesting. I never really have controlled experiments, as can be seen in what I did so far.  Steve and I both can notice in each of these experiments so far on this thread, there is a different taste in the crust with each blend.  Whether they are because of different bake times, different proofing times, different room temperature proofing,  different amounts of cheese, sauce or other variables I donít think we will ever know.  To do a really controlled experiment would take a lot of work with any of these blends.

I still will make two test doughs, one with ascorbic acid and ginger and one without to test next Tuesday.  At least it might satisfy my curiosity about why the crust was so crisp.

Norma
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: Pete-zza on May 12, 2011, 02:47:58 PM
Norma,

Of all the experiments you have conducted thus far in this thread, has any one stood out from all the others from the standpoint of producing exceptional or unexpectedly good results? Also, is there any enhancer that you would consider using with your preferment Lehmann dough at market?

Peter
Title: Re: Homemade Dough Conditioner
Post by: norma427 on May 12, 2011, 04:21:03 PM
Norma,

Of all the experiments you have conducted thus far in this thread, has any one stood out from all the others from the standpoint of producing exceptional or unexpectedly good results? Also, is there any enhancer that you would consider using with your preferment Lehmann dough at market?

Peter

Peter,

Although these experiments did give different flavors in the crust, and some were moister in the rim than others, and also with the last experiment crisper in the rim and crust, I canít think of a favorite right now.  With each experiment, they all were different, but I donít think I would use any of them in the preferment Lehmann dough as of now. If I would try more of these blends in the preferment Lehmann dough I would need another method to prepare the Lehmann dough, because most of these blends do make the dough stiffer, until they have fermented at least 2 days.  With my preferment Lehmann dough, I only have a one day cold ferment after the final mix, as I am sure you already know.  I still really like the preferment Lehmann dough pizza and also like most of the Reinhart pizzas I had made so far.  I would rather experiment more with manteca or Goya manteca in the preferment Lehmann dough, but am still curious how any of these blends would work out in one of Reinhart doughs.  Probably any of the blends I have tried so far wouldnít make a really big difference in the Reinhart dough either.  I really donít know.  I donít think a normal customer or person that doesnít eat a lot of pizzas would really notice a big difference in the flavor of the crust in a Lehmann dough with using a blend or not.  I do have one customer that has tasted most of the Lehmann pizzas with the blends and he can tell the difference.

Norma