Pizza Making Forum

Pizza Making => New York Style => Topic started by: norma427 on December 26, 2009, 08:34:41 AM

Title: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on December 26, 2009, 08:34:41 AM
I would like to try a preferment in making my Lehmann NY Style pizza.  Could I use flour, water, and IDY to make a preferment that can be incorporated into my Lehmann recipe and achieve a better crust flavor?  I think I would like to try a poolish that can be refrigerated overnight and then be incorporated into my final dough mixture the next day.  I want to try a 24 hour fermentation after incorporating the preferment.
I did purchase cultures from Sourdough.com, but am not sure if this is the way I want to proceed until I have tried other preferments.   I have had this cultures for about 5 months, but never started them. 
I would like to experiment on the easiest method first to see the results would be.  If this method doesnít produce better crust flavor, then I can try another kind of preferment and proceed from there. 
I am using KASL flour, Morton Kosher Salt, filtered water, Fillippo Bero olive oil, and Saf-red IDY. I would like to use 5 dough balls for this test.  This is the formula I am using now for my Lehmann NY Style dough.  I also have King Arthur unbleached bread flour that I could use to make the preferment. 

5 dough balls

Flour (100%):    1759.18 g  |  62.05 oz | 3.88 lbs
Water (59%):    1037.92 g  |  36.61 oz | 2.29 lbs
IDY (0.26%):    4.57 g | 0.16 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.52 tsp | 0.51 tbsp
Salt (1.75%):    30.79 g | 1.09 oz | 0.07 lbs | 6.41 tsp | 2.14 tbsp
Olive Oil (1%):    17.59 g | 0.62 oz | 0.04 lbs | 3.91 tsp | 1.3 tbsp
Total (162.01%):   2850.05 g | 100.53 oz | 6.28 lbs | TF = 0.1
Single Ball:   570.01 g | 20.11 oz | 1.26 lbs

I will post results with pics.                     
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Villa Roma on December 26, 2009, 09:22:54 AM
Norma....I don't claim to be an expert but I would try the following recipe.

Preferment:
500 grams flour
400 grams water (80%)
1 tsp yeast

Dissolve yeast in water and stir in the flour. Let this sit at room temp for 12 hours stirring twice in the first few hours. Stir the preferment and refridgerate for 24-48 hours.

Dough:
Preferment from above
1260 grams flour (total 1760)
638 grams water (total 1038)
31 grams salt
18 grams olive oil

Mix everything just until the gluten begins to form and then let rise at room temp for about 4 hours. Scale the dough into 5 balls and refridgerate for 24-48 hours. Allow dough to warm to room temp before baking.

You may also want to try increasing the hydration to around 65%. To do this sub 744 grams of water instead of the 638 grams for a total of 1144 grams. A Tbls of vinegar will give your dough a nice twang.

    Good luck, Villa Roma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Bob1 on December 26, 2009, 10:54:49 AM
Norma,
Funny you should ask this question.  I am in the same stage.  I received my two Italian starters last week.  I am a novice and I was afraid to start them without practice.  I decided two kill two birds with one stone, so I stopped at a local homebrew shop and picked up a 10 gram package of Coopers Ale yeast for $1.65.  I decided two mix 1 gram of yeast with a a cup of flour and an equal amount of water in grams and freeze the rest.  I always wanted two try beer yeast.  I started this on Monday and the starter is thriving.  This yeast appears to be slow and prefers warm temperatures so I add about 150 grams of flour and 150 grams of water each day.  I feed it after it peaks and drops an inch or so, it works out to be about 24 hours.  I made three balls on the 23rd and tried one pizza on the 24th.  I used 8% starter and no additional yeast.  The gluten development was incredible.  I made a square pie about 15 x 14 with 600 grams.  I cooked it on a fibrament for 8 minutes at 500 degrees.  The crust rose about 1/2 an inch and the the center, with sauce and a little Pecorino, rose about the thickness of a brown paper bag.  It was also very crisp and did not flop.  I found the crust taste very interesting.  It was exactly like a Chef-Boyardee.  Maybe those kits use beer yeast.  I think I will add additional bakers yeast to my next batch after I try the other two balls this weekend.  The starter was getting two big for the container on the 23rd so I divided it and fed both.  I have just used the second one too add 660 grams to a Ciabatta recipe that I just mixed.  I will post this first then post the Pizza recipe.  I found that not only the taste is enhanced, but the gluten development is enhanced as well.

Thanks,

Bob1

Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on December 26, 2009, 11:16:22 AM
Villa Roma,
Thank you for the figuring this out for me and giving detailed instructions.  Since my KASL doesnít have an absorption rate of 65%.do you think this would be okay to use a higher hydration to start my test with?  I am willing to try this if you think it will work out okay.  If you donít mind telling me about your experiences with using a preferment. I would appreciate you telling me about what kind of results you have achieved with a preferment in achieving better crust flavor.
My digital scales only weighs in ounces, pounds and kg.  I am not familiar with kg and grams.  Sorry to be asking all these questions, but in time I will learn. 
Thank you for taking the time to answer my post. 
Norma
   
Bob1,
Great to hear we are in the same stage of trying to find what is the best thing to use.  It will be interesting to see what your results are with the what adding the bakers yeast.  Please post pictures so I can see what kind of results you are getting with your experiments.
Thanks,
Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Bob1 on December 26, 2009, 11:27:15 AM
Norma, 
I am using a 50/50 with KASL and it is working.  Most people say not to use KASL and try it with a lower protein unbleched flour.  You will understand why when you try to pour it out of the container.  I actually have to cut it with a knife because of the gluten development.  It does not concern me however, because I am using such a small amount.  I am also very carefull to mix the feeding gently and not stir hard.

Bob1
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on December 26, 2009, 11:40:38 AM
Bob1,
Thank you for telling me what ratio you are using and the instructions.  What hydration are you using?  If you want to post pictures, you can either post under here or do your own post so the forum sees how your are progressing.
Thanks for your help,
Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Villa Roma on December 26, 2009, 12:38:35 PM
Villa Roma,
Thank you for the figuring this out for me and giving detailed instructions.  Since my KASL doesnít have an absorption rate of 65%.do you think this would be okay to use a higher hydration to start my test with?  I am willing to try this if you think it will work out okay.  If you donít mind telling me about your experiences with using a preferment. I would appreciate you telling me about what kind of results you have achieved with a preferment in achieving better crust flavor.
My digital scales only weighs in ounces, pounds and kg.  I am not familiar with kg and grams.  Sorry to be asking all these questions, but in time I will learn. 
Thank you for taking the time to answer my post. 
Norma
   
Thanks,
Norma

I've been using Gold Medal Better for Bread flour with a 75% hydration level and had great results. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9878.0.html  KASL should have no problem handling 65%. You can pick up an Escali scale that measures grams for about $25 on Amazon or do the conversion. 1 oz is 28.35 grams.

    Villa Roma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on December 26, 2009, 02:04:04 PM
Villa Roma,
Thanks for the conversion from ounces to grams.  I received some money for a Christmas present, so probably my next piece of equipment to buy will be a digital scale for home use.
I appreciate all the information you gave me.
Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Bob1 on December 26, 2009, 07:33:28 PM
Norma,
Here is my first attempt to post pics.  I used the starter today to make three loaves of Chiabatta.  I thought I would also use 400 g on a tomato pie in a 14" cutter pan.  The bread and pie were very tasty.  I found that the tomato pie raised well and the crumb to be extremely light and airy.  Sorry the picture quality is not that good, but I think you can make out that the crumb has large bubbles.  The result of this experiment worked very well for taste and structure using a dough that was mixed at 9:00 AM and baked at noon.  It had much more flavor than a 6 day cold ferment with the same KASL.  I would think that you could try this method at your stand with good results.  I will post the recipe later.

Thanks,

Bob1
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Bob1 on December 26, 2009, 07:34:58 PM
OOps only one picture attached.  Here is another
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Bob1 on December 26, 2009, 07:37:02 PM
And here is another
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Bob1 on December 26, 2009, 08:54:06 PM
Norma,
Here is the formula for todays work based on the above pictures.  I wanted to get rid of an extra container of the 50/50 ferment.  The Cooper ferment yeast I am using is very slow and easy to feed at room temp, so I will probably have it on hand for quite a while.  I would assume that in a week or two It will get even more flavor when the bacteria starts to populate.  At that point it will be more sour, and I may not be able to get away with using so much preferment.  Time will tell.  I did not work with the dough much.  I only folded it about ten times.  It was mixed in a Electrolux DLX.  I mixed 3/4 of the flour, the yeast, and all the water for a minute or two and then let it autolyse for 20 minutes.  I then mixed it for 5 minutes and then added the preferment, then I mixed in the last of the flour with the salt.  The total ball was kneeded for about 5 minutes after it all came together.  I cooked the bread at 480 deg for 35 minutes (205 deg internal).  I also had a water pan in the oven and the crust came out very crisp.  The Pizza was baked at 475 for about ten minutes.  It had 6 in 1 with oil, spice, sugar, and a bit of Pecorino.



Total Formula:
Flour (100%):    942.98 g  |  33.26 oz | 2.08 lbs
Water (78%):    735.52 g  |  25.94 oz | 1.62 lbs
Salt (2%):    18.86 g | 0.67 oz | 0.04 lbs | 3.93 tsp | 1.31 tbsp
IDY (.28%):    2.64 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.88 tsp | 0.29 tbsp
Total (180.28%):   1700 g | 59.96 oz | 3.75 lbs | TF = N/A

Preferment:
Flour:    340 g | 11.99 oz | 0.75 lbs
Water:    340 g | 11.99 oz | 0.75 lbs
Total:    680 g | 23.99 oz | 1.5 lbs

Final Dough:
Flour:    602.98 g | 21.27 oz | 1.33 lbs
Water:    395.52 g | 13.95 oz | 0.87 lbs
Salt:    18.86 g | 0.67 oz | 0.04 lbs | 3.93 tsp | 1.31 tbsp
IDY:    2.64 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.88 tsp | 0.29 tbsp
Preferment:    680 g | 23.99 oz | 1.5 lbs
Total:    1700 g | 59.96 oz | 3.75 lbs  | TF = N/A

Thanks,

Bob
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on December 26, 2009, 11:19:37 PM
Bob1,
Congratulations on your first posts of pictures. To be able to see what recipes or pizzas actually look like is really a big help.  Your crumb structure looks nice and airy.  To be able to make a dough at 9am and to use it to make a pizza at 12pm is eye opening to me.  I want to read more about preferments and then decide by next week, what I want to try first.  Seems I have a lot to learn. Lol  :o Good to hear you are using KASL, also, so that will give me more to think about.
What I find really interesting is your saying it had more flavor than a 6 day cold fermentation.
Thank you for giving me the formula you used.
Did your crust have a sourdough flavor, since you said you might use less preferment in future experiments?  Am I correct in saying you did use an autolyse of 20 minutes?  Another question I would like to ask is do you always put a pan of water in you oven to make the crust crisp?
Your bread looks very tasty, also.  I just made some Kimmelweck rolls today.  What an adventure.  ::)  Will post the results under the person that directed me to the Kimmelweck recipe.
Thanks for giving all this detailed information.
Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Bob1 on December 27, 2009, 01:01:11 AM
Norma,
I only used the pan of water to steam the bread loaves.  I never use water for pizza.  Keep in mind that I started this to get used to working with a sourdough starter.  For the cost of a cup of flour and the same weight in water it is very inexpensive.  I think the taste develops quicker with a warm ferment and is there to be utilized.  I also feel that if you need to make extra pies the next day you should be able to add extra flour and water and still maintain the flavor on a 24 hour ferment period.  The batch I used today the 26th was about 330 grams on the 25th.  I then fed it with 165 grams of flour and 165 grams of water at 5pm on the 25th.  This gave me the 660 gram poolish to bake today.  I believe the taste has not become sour yet because the mixture is only 5 days running.  Keep in mind that the preferment is made with Australian Beer yeast that prefers a warm ferment, and the final dough had SAF IDY added.   Also keep in mind that the bacteria that gives taste to a starter usually takes a couple of weeks to develop.  I commented on using less preferment in the future because the taste may become more intense as the starter ages and reaches it's balance between yeast and bacteria. 
   
I made three dough balls a few days ago with only 8% of the same starter and no extra yeast.  I used one ball after a 24 cold ferment and it had good taste but the ball was the same size as when I first put it in the fridge, but it did double before I baked it.  The remaining two balls have now doubled in the fridge.  I will probably bake them tomorrow.

Regarding the autolyse, I like to mix 75% of the flour with all the water and let it sit for 20 minutes.  I then try to develop the gluten in that wet dough before adding the rest.  It seems to work for me because the tomato pie was very light and digestable.  In fact I was really impressed by the gluten development in the whole batch today.  Even though the dough was such a high hydration it was not that sticky and hard to work with.  In the past I have also tried the other side of the spectrum, and have just brought the dough together and let the gluten develop in the fridge.  It is all a work in progress.

Thanks,

Bob 
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on December 27, 2009, 01:50:39 AM
Bob,
It is very interesting on how you are progressing with using starters and the knowlege you have obtained in experimenting. When you are expermenting at home, you don't have to have a certain start and finish time most of the time.  You have become very proficent in handling your starter.
I never have used any kind of starter, so learning will be a stage by stage process for me.  I have decided this is something I wanted to try to see if I can get a better crust flavor.  Since I am in a commercial enviorment, putting it to a weekly operation is another story.  Only time will tell if this works out for me.  I only want to start with one variable at a time and see what differences can be seen in the crust flavor.  If I jump into too many variables at a time I won't be able to see what the changes are that can be achieved. 
Thank you for telling me why you used the water and going into detail about using your starter.
Maybe what I might be looking for is a sponge.  ???  Will have to read more about what a sponge is.  ::)
Thanks,
Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on December 27, 2009, 09:43:13 AM
Norma,

I think it would be a good idea to first determine what you are hoping to achieve in using a preferment. Is it for personal use at home, or for your limited business situation? If it is for your business, I think I would start simply and use something like an IDY-based preferment. It could be some version of the Lehmann NY style dough formulation with which you have already had considerable experience, or some other unrelated version such as proposed by Villa Roma. If you are thinking of reformatting  the Lehmann dough formulation, there are endless preferment versions that one can try, from poolish versions, sponge versions, biga versions, old dough versions, etc. However, you have to have at least some basic understanding of the different types of preferments and their underlying biochemistry and use, and the math for doing reformatting can be quite complicated for some people, especially since the forum does not have any tools that can be used to do all the calculations. Each reformatting has to be done with pencil and paper and a desk calculator. Even if you can master the math part, there would be no guarantee that you will get the results you are looking for.

Peter

Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on December 27, 2009, 11:15:33 AM
Peter,
This would be to try at my market stand to try and achieve a better crust flavor.  Some time in the future, I would like to also try this at home. 
I will be reading and learning more about a preferment using IDY.  Since I am not good at math, by next week maybe I will be able to decide what I want to do.  I might use what Villa Roma has proposed with my regular hydration since I am not used to handling a higher hydration dough.
Thanks,
Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Bob1 on December 27, 2009, 12:22:37 PM
Peter,

I am curious about learning more about the math you are discussing.  Is it explained on PMQ?  I would like to research it further on all the preferments.  I chose a 50/50 base preferment so I had a lot of activity to develop flavor.  I decided to use the beer yeast so I would have something different to work with as I practiced maintaining a sour dough.  I currently use Fleishmans cake & IDY, Red Star ADY, and SAF IDY.  I think next month I will activate another warm preferment with the Fleishmans cake to study it's behavior.  My goal on this project is to feed the starter every 24 hours so I can zero in on a consistant activity at a finished dough hook temp, and then adjust the extra yeast as required.  The batch I made yesterday was for bread, but I tried a tomato pie also.  The three dough balls that I made previous to this are strictly ferment with no additional yeast.  The next batch will have a little conventional yeast added to it.  I am only experimenting with 5 to 8 percent starter on the cold ferments.  It will be interesting to see what the changes will be as the starter develops.  I will definitely try to keep this beer starter going because it is great for emergency doughs also.  It appears that I can up the percentage to add flavor and developed gluten on short notice.  

Norma,
I would suggest trying it at home in order to get used to working with, and caring for a starter.  This project is giving me confidence, and teaching me how to work with them.  It has helped a lot with the mystery and fear of messing up.  The great thing is that it will only cost you pennies to try it.  With your experience and Peter's direction I am sure you would be able to incorporate it, or some variation, into your stand someday.  At least this would be a good way to get your feet wet.  

Good luck,

Bob

      
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on December 27, 2009, 01:57:55 PM
Bob,

Preferments are classically and traditionally creations of the bread making world, not the pizzza world, and based on using commercial yeast. Over time, these preferments, as well as other bread making principles, have been adopted for use in making pizza dough. The type of math I was referring to is embodied in the following articles by Didier Rosada: http://web.archive.org/web/20050116064312/www.cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food3_apr2004.htm and http://web.archive.org/web/20050829015510/www.cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food4_dec2004.htm. As you will see from these articles, there are quantitative aspects to preferments (e.g., how much to use and the composition and hydration of the preferments), a time component (e.g., the duration of the prefermentation period), and a temperature component (e.g., the temperature of prefermentation, which might be room temperature, a refrigerator/cooler temperature or a combination of both). With a basic understanding of preferments and their related biochemistry, a standard dough recipe, such as the basic Lehmann dough recipe that Norma has been using, can be transformed to a poolish format, a sponge format, a biga format, or an old dough/chef/pate fermente format. That is where the math aspect comes into play. Alternatively, and sometimes preferably, it may be better to use someone else's proven preferment dough recipe. Villa Roma's recommended formulation may be one such proven dough formulation.

It is possible to use natural preferments that have compositions and consistencies (hydrations) that replicate commercially-leavened preferments, but they cannot be merely substituted for commercially-leavened preferments because they have different profiles in terms of activity level, quantity, and other performance aspects. In my opinion, based on my experience having done both, it is easier to convert a dough recipe to a commercial-leavened preferment format than to a "natural preferment" format. It is also important to keep in mind that not all preferments result in the ideal or perfect pizza dough/crust. I have used preferments that yielded baguette-like tasting crusts that, while quite nice for a bread, was not what I was looking for in pizza crusts. Also, crust coloration can become a problem and require reformulation and possibly the use of diastatic malts to help correct the deficiency.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on December 27, 2009, 02:15:29 PM
Bob1,
I am now reading different posts under Starters/Sponges.  This is one of the posts I am reading.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8910.0.html
There are many posts under Starters/Sponges that can help you with what you want to know. 

I really want to start from just finding out what the best starting place would be for me in trying a preferment and incorporating it into my dough.  I am not in a hurry and can try many different ideas of other members and people that have posted in the past.  I really donít know if I ever will incorporate this in my weekly dough.  I have my regular Lehmann dough recipe that I can make weekly. 
As for working with and caring for a starter here at home that is something I might do in the future.  I donít really have all the equipment to go from starting and caring for a starter and then actually making the pizza here at home.  I like to experiment with recipes here at home, but I my oven, no baking stone, no digital scale and many other things keep me from trying this at home for now. 
If you want to post your questions about your using starters you could post under Starters/Sponges and probably get some information from other forum users that have tried all these things in the past.  You are already much more advanced in starters than I am. As for PMQ think tank, I donít think many members there are using preferments, although I am not sure.
Thanks for sharing your information.

Thanks Peter for explaining all this.  I just went to post and saw you had already posted.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Bob1 on December 27, 2009, 02:42:34 PM
Pete,
Thanks for the info and leads.  I will research those sights later today. 

Thanks,

Bob
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on December 27, 2009, 03:15:56 PM
As for PMQ think tank, I donít think many members there are using preferments, although I am not sure.

Norma,

It is rare to find discussion on preferments at the PMQTT. Tom Lehmann sometimes tries to introduce PMQTT members to basic preferments but there is usually no response to his posts on the subject. Our members are light years more advanced on the topic. I think it is because we are home pizza makers by and large and don't have to contend with the many challenges in adapting preferment principles to commercial operations where failure can exact a high price, especially for operators who don't really understand the complexities of preferments.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on December 27, 2009, 05:06:27 PM
In the last few hours I went to PMQTT and typed in the search: Increasing the flavor of dough.  If you go down to the one that reads about increasing the flavor of dough and you will see pizzanerd and there are 162 replies and 11 pages.  I tried to copy the link so if anyone is interested they also could read this whole post and threads, but when I tried to copy and paste on word, it doesn't come up.
I am finding this to be good reading, as it discusses different ways to use a preferment.  I haven't read all of it, but will continue to read.  It is also interesting they tell you to look at pizzamaking.com for more information.  :)
Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on December 27, 2009, 06:49:32 PM
finally got this link to work if anyone is interested

http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4231&hilit

I also found what pizzanerd had wrote interesting.

Dom DeMarco of DiFara's in Brooklyn uses a mix of 00 and high-gluten flours. He once told me that he used 25% 00 flour and 75% high-gluten flour (he tends to favor the All Trumps), both by volume. He bakes the pizzas in a Bakers Pride deck oven.
by pizzanerd

more to come...

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Bob1 on December 27, 2009, 08:11:41 PM
Peter,
I took a quick glance at the two links.  To be honest I get a little confused on semantics sometimes.  Is the starter that I created with around 1 cup of KASL, equal grams of water,  & 1 gram of beer yeast a poolish  or a sourdough.  Technically it is commercial yeast but I assume it starts out as a poolish and will develop into a sour dough as it increases in bacteria growth.   I started this concoction based on things that Marco has written.  I may have misunderstood what he wrote, but it seems that what I have, is more of the old mother dough method that the old country used to use.  I thought it would be good because at room temp it makes calculating finished dough temp easy.   I based my first three dough balls on 8% of the flour weight.  According to Marco I should have used 5% of the water weight which would have lowered the criscito to about half.  On another day I then did as he mentioned by adding much more crisito to the bread batch, as Italian bread bakers do.  I used my second dough ball today from the first batch of three using 8% flour weight and it made a nice tomato pie.  I will attach pics and the formula tomorrow.  The dough raised much better on the second pie. 
I will insert Marco's post below this one.  After rereading Marco's post and considering the small amount of criscito I may not add any additional yeast and use a warm ferment instead of a cold one.  Peter, please let me know if I am interpreting Marco correctly.

Hi Pftyalor

Yes I am the same pizza from egullet ;-), well spotted!

Anyway, I 'll try to explain again as I did yesterday, and hope that this time the post doesn't get lost...


First of all some terminology, which will help understand each other:

In Naples when we speak about dough, we relate all the ingredient against the water, as it is the first ingredient that goes into the mixer or the the mixing bowl.

Secondly, we need to distinguish between the mixing method (direct vs indirect) and levening agents (Commercial yeast vs Natural yeast or "CRISCETO" as it is known in Naples).

Poolish, Biga, Pan at l'ancienne, etc, are all indirect mixing method. They consist of premixing a large quantity of flour, water and fermenting agent, which will the be part of the final dough. This preferment, it is responsible of much of the flavour of the final dough, but also, because of some reaction, of a certain crispiness in the final baked product. Under this aspect we should look at the action of enzymes not only for the resulting flavour (as it is only mention in american baking bibliography), but also at the resulting weakening of the gluten and improve digestibility.

When we talk about Starter, natural leaven, wild yeast, we are talking about a microflora of wild yeast and bacteria which strive in a mix of flour and water. A piece of this mix, can be used only  as starter for the next dough when added in minimum ammount or as a preferment, adding also the test of the acidified mix, when added in large ammount.

The old dough method, is a way of using a piece of acidified dough   from the previous batch (thus including salt and usually made with a natural wild yeast starter otherwise doesn't have leavening power). When using a culture strter from another regions, like the Italians one, I strongly reccomend not to use the old dough method, but instead the Mother dough method.
In the mother dough method, a piece of dough made with only water and flour plus the culture starter, is refreshed with a 50% addittin of water and flour, and after is left to ferment for a minimum time of 3-6 hours, a piece is cut off (the dauther) and used as fermenting agent or in large quantity as preferment. This way, thanks to the strong innoculating of the original mother dough into the refreshment, there is a better chance to avoid contaminations.

Having clarified the above, I can now tell you that the main difference in Naples between Pizza dough and Bread dough made both with CRISCETO (WILD YEAST STARTER) is in the ammount of CRISCITO used.
In the pizza dough it has to be minimum, in percentage that vary from 1 to 5% of the water's weight, and it is only needed as fermenting agent, assuring a slow and appropriate fermentation.
When in the previous post, I was talking about the wrong recipe in the booklet, it was because it was developed following the "disciplinare" guideline adapting it from the recipe using commercial yeast. The recipe calls therefore for a large ammount of starter to assure an 8 hrs rise. That is wrong for what I said above and in the previous post.

Now, talking about Una Pizza, I would like to start saying that I admire Mr Mangieri for the passion and effort he is putting in his project. However I have to say that he is a bit still away from the right ancient method of making a neapolitan dough with a natural leavening.

Whilst he is using indeed a starter for his dough, and this is  indeed an ancient method, the process he is using is not right, as it follow some breads technique. I don't like to disclose his methos, as he was kind enough to show it and explain it to me, and on the other hand I also made an effort to explain where it was wrong. It could also be that since my visit in November he has taken my suggestion on board, and have change something in better. However there was a reason for my comment on eGullet.

Pasing on the Caputo flour, I need to know which one are you using. There are several Blue bags made by Caputo, of which one has a pizza picture on it and the label states: "PIZZERIA". Is it this one that you are talking about?

Let me know, and if anybody has any further questions, please do not hesitate to ask.

Ciao
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on December 28, 2009, 07:51:07 AM
Bob1,
I can see we are both interested in finding answers about preferments.  I appreciate all the information you have given me and also the pictures you have posted.  Reading how your experiments have been progressing is interesting. 
I usually read all the posts from each day if I find time.
I haven't been on this forum for very long.  I only started making pizza in April of this year.  I have posted on other people ideas, pizzas, and different topics.  Usually I try not to ask specific questions on other peoples posts to find the answers I am looking for.  I know sometimes I have what you call hijacked a thread and am guilty by posting something that wasn't relevant to what the topic was originally about.  Usually when you post on a certain topic, either you are looking for answers, finding how other forum users information can help you or congratulating them on their efforts.  I have even asked if one of my posts could be deleted, because after I read what what I had posted, I rethought if I really should have posted it.  Usually if you read a post and have questions about something you are also doing, you should post under your own topic and see if you get answers to your specific questions.  If you look at different topics, sometimes you will see what people refer to as a shattered thread.  This can happen easily.
I don't know if all this makes sense to you or not, but if you want to privately PM me, I will explain in more detail.
Thank for your interest in helping me,
Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Bob1 on December 28, 2009, 09:57:22 AM
Norma,
I have been on the site for a couple of years but I have only registered this year. I check posts all day.  I have read about 90% of all the things posted so far and have reread much of that.  Retention becomes a lot harder as we get older.   I also hit PMQ and many other sites.  I find it quite nice how I sat back and watched Peter and others help you develop your business with out asking anything in return.  Unfortunately you do not see to much of that in the world we live in.  I was going to post an apology for possibly hijacking your thread today but was a little busy with work this morning.  I understand what you are trying to say but I thought I was adding info in a different way so you you could experiment in the same direction.  It appeared to me that you had purchased starters and were a little leery on getting started, as I.  I also read the links that you found at PMQ and a lot of them showed how the people were trying out different things.  They have been experimenting for many months.  I misunderstood your thread.  I did not realize that you only do your pizza making at the stand and were looking for a more definitive answer for production purposes.  I thought you were looking to develop something yourself, then try to incorporate it into the Lehman dough for flavor.  Sometimes I guess I lack social grace and I really do apologize.  If you like I will PM you on my results.  I am only about a an 1:15 from your stand and work sometimes gets me in that area.  I almost stopped last summer but got tied up.  In fact, if Fred would have posted his pizza day at his guitar shop a little earlier, we probably would have met there.  I often go there for barbecue sauce.   Once again, I do apologize for any errors in judgment.   I will probably start a thread in starters and post further results there. 

Thanks,

Bob
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on December 28, 2009, 10:19:50 AM
Bob1,
There is no need to apologize.  You were also helping me in understanding more about preferments.  As I told you in my last post, I have problems with posting in some topics when I get excited what they are talking about.  I know what you are talking about in when we get older, retention becomes harder.  Sometimes I have to reread different things several times before I fully understand.  I also realize how fortunate I am that Peter and so many people have helped me in my business and with recipes at home.  This forum is such a great place for exchanging ideas and learning new information.
I did purchase starters about 5 months ago and thought of trying them, but then thought I needed to do more experimenting with my Lehmann dough before I tried the starters. 
You don't lack social grace..just by you responding to what I wrote tells me you are a very decent person.
You can PM me anytime with your results.  I will be looking for your posts and since I know who you are, that will make it more interesting.
Stop by my stand anytime.  If you want to try some of your dough in my oven, it is fine with me.
After I posted  Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza, I also thought maybe I should have worded my post differently.
Thank you for helping me and I hope we can become friends.
Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on December 28, 2009, 10:24:56 AM
After reading much material about preferments and using either, poolish, biga, or sponges, I thought I might post on PMQTT and see if anyone had used preferments in a Lehmann dough. I did post a question on PMQTT last night asking about incorporating a preferment into Lehmann Dough.  This is the link to see how  Tom Lehmann answered my question. 

http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=8419&p=56778#p56778

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on December 28, 2009, 12:55:29 PM
To be honest I get a little confused on semantics sometimes.  Is the starter that I created with around 1 cup of KASL, equal grams of water,  & 1 gram of beer yeast a poolish  or a sourdough.  Technically it is commercial yeast but I assume it starts out as a poolish and will develop into a sour dough as it increases in bacteria growth.

Bob,

There will always be semantics issues with preferments. That is because of the bastardization of the terminology over time. Misuse and abuse of the terminology is much more common among amateurs but some professionals also are guilty of the same offense. I am sure that at one point early in my studies of preferments I was also an offender. However, frustrated by the lack of consistency of the use of the classic terminology for preferments, I decided to become more of a "purist" on the subject. What you described above is a preferment in a classical sense. With equal weights of flour and water and commercial yeast, that preferment would constitute a poolish. In my opinion, it would not under any circumstance be a sourdough culture/preferment. To me, the term "sourdough" connotes wild (natural) yeast. However, having said that, I have seen breads touted as sourdough breads that have no natural yeast. The bread may contain commercial "sours" and other ingredients like lactic acid that are commonly associated with sourdough breads but no wild yeast.

In your case, the only way that I know of to transform your commercially-leavened poolish to a true sourdough format is to let the wild yeast overtake your poolish. In due course, the commercial yeast will die off because it won't be able to survive the acidic environment that develops as the wild yeast take over.

Peter

Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Bob1 on December 28, 2009, 01:39:30 PM
Thanks Pete,  I will follow it and start a new thread to let you know what I find as at progresses. 

Thanks,

Bob
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on December 30, 2009, 04:57:05 AM
Okay..I have received this post from Tom Lehmann and am going to proceed from here for the first experiment.

Norma;
Try this;
Take 1/3 of the flour and 0.1% IDY, based on the weight of the flour and adjust the absorption to 50%, based on the weight of the flour. Mix this together for about 5-minutes, and set aside in the cooler to slowly ferment overnight, then add this to the mixing bowl along with the other 2/3 of the flour, the full compliment of IDY and all of the other ingredients you're using. Adjust the total dough absorption to 56% (based on the weight of the 2/3 fresh flour that you're adding at the bowl). Mix the dough just until it comes smooth, then scale, ball, oil, ferment overnight in the cooler and use as needed over the next two days. For a flavor change, you might even consider substututing up to 10% of the water that you add to the 2/3 of the flour with beer.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Now, my next question will be is this a true sponge preferment?   As I understand a sponge as of this moment it is: A sponge starter (preferment) is much like a pancake batter and is made from flour, water and IDY used as the leaven.  Lactobacillus is not present in a sponge. Because of this, sponges do not produce the same results in terms of flavor, texture and keeping qualities as sourdoughs, and are often used in recipes where a lighter texture and milder flavor is desirable. A sponge's  fermentation is measured in hours.

Before I try to calculate for this preferment, I want to make sure I am understanding this method okay.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: UnConundrum on December 30, 2009, 08:23:32 AM
Norma, while I'll defer to Peter, I think the 50% hydration preferment should be called a "biga."  If it was 100% hydration, I'd call it a "poolish."  A "sponge" is more of an American invention which I would think is somewhere in between, maybe a 75% hydration.  I picture a sponge as the same hydration as the final dough, maybe a little wetter, that has been allowed rise and become "spongy." 
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on December 30, 2009, 08:41:37 AM
Warren,
Thanks for your reply.  I am trying to read about all these kinds of preferments and the more I read, the more I get puzzled.  ::)  Since you are a great baker, I am sure you already have all this figured out.  I wonder how many people have this same problem when first trying different preferments?  :o
There should be one place you could look that gives simple explanations.
Thanks,
Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: koloa101 on December 30, 2009, 10:33:48 AM
hello,
preferment poolish is typically equal weights in water and flour with a small percent of yeast proofed at 70 degrees for 12 hours. just take 30-35% of water and flour weight from your pizza recipe and let that be your preferment. after the preferment is done proofing, simply add it to the rest of the flour/water/yeast/salt/oil. do not autolyse the flour and water before adding the poolish or else you wont get a properly mixed dough. give a few folds in the first hour and then allow the dough to nearly double in volume. afterwards divide into pizza balls and allow to proof for additional 30m-1hr, then bake!

the preferment will give a better color and sweeter taste compared to using non preferment method. i followed jeffrey hammelmanns baguette with poolish recipe technique for pizza. i highly recommend his book titled 'bread'.

Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on December 30, 2009, 11:03:01 AM
Tom Lehmann did not name his preferment but I agree with Warren that it most closely resembles a biga.

Since Norma told Tom (at the PMQTT) that she plans to try out his preferment method in the context of the Lehmann NY style dough formulation, I assume that she intends to do that before considering other alternatives.

I look forward to seeing her conversion of her original Lehmann NY style dough formulation to preferment format with Tom's suggestions incorporated into the dough formulation. If beer is to be used, I think I would incorporate it into the final mix rather than using any part of it in the preferment.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on December 30, 2009, 11:28:46 AM
Peter and Warren,
Thanks for both of you telling me this closely resembles a biga. 
This preferment will help me understand more about how a biga is used and if it gives me a better crust flavor.
Villa Roma, Bob1 and koloa101, sometime in the future I will try each of your ideas. Right now it all depends how this biga experiment evolves. 
I wonít be trying out the beer right now, either. That will wait until I try out the basic biga.
I will try and work out the conversion from my original Lehmann dough recipe to adding the biga preferment in the next few days.  Will post when I think I have it figured out.
Thanks,
Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on December 30, 2009, 05:52:29 PM
I thought I would let you know what King Arthur Flour said to me about poolish and biga two days ago.  I had gone on their website and saw you could talk to someone via live.  I did type in my question about what they thought would be a good preferment to achieve a better crust flavor if using KASL.  I had waited for 10 minutes and didn't get a reply, so I wasn't sure if I knew how to use it.  I received this reply the next day though my email.


[kaf #148563] When you were offline (via LivePerson)
[Print] [Full View]
Bakers to you - 2 days ago More Details
From:
  Bakers <[email protected]> Hide
Add to: To Do, Calendar
Cc:
Bcc:
Date:
Mon, Dec 28, 2009 2:04 pm
    I18N YGP.SaveAll I18N YGP.SaveProgress I18N YGP.ViewAfterSave




Thank you for your email.  A poolish is 100% hydration using about 1%
yeast to develop flavor.  A poolish is generally 1/3 of the final dough.

A biga is 50-60% hydration using about 1% yeast as well.  A big is
generally about 10-15% of the final dough.

For an in depth study of this topic I suggest Jeff Hamelman's book;
BREAD, A Baker's Book of Techniques and Recipes.

Please contact me if I may be of further assistance.
Regards,
Frank
King Arthur Flour
Baker's Catalogue, Inc.
1-800-827-6836
[email protected]

Did anyone else ever try to contact King Arthur Flour viaLivePerson? 

It is also interesting that they recommend reading BREAD, A Baker's Book of Techniques and Recipes, since Kolia101 also recommended this book.  I guess I should use some of my Christmas money to purchase this book and understand more about bread making and preferments.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on December 31, 2009, 06:52:13 AM
Okay..here is my stab at the conversion..I have really wracked my brain..and think all the alive cells are almost all dead..surely am not confident if this is right?????  I am now sure I was not born with the math gene...more common sense, experimental and creativity genes.
Norma

Dough

Flour (100):                       1601.05 g     56.47 oz.    3.53 lbs
Water (56%)                        896.59 g     31.63 oz.    1.98 lbs.
IDY (0.25%)                               4 g 0.14 oz 0.01 lbs. 1.33 tsp 0.44 tbsp.
Salt (1.75%)                            28.02g 0.99 oz. 0.06 lbs 5.84 tsp 1.95 tbsp
Oil (1%)                                  16.01 g 0.56 oz. 0.04 lbs. 3.56 tsp. 1.19 tbsp
Total (159%)                      2545.67 g 89.79 oz. 5.61 lbs. TF=0.08932
Single Ball:                           509.13 g 17.96 oz. 1.12 lbs

used a thickness factor of 0.088
pizza size 16"

Preferment Biga

Flour (100%)            528.85 g 18.65 oz. 1.17 lbs.
Water (50%)             264.42 g 9.33 oz. 0.58 lbs
IDY (0.1%)               0.53 g 0.02 oz 0 lbs 0.18 tsp 0.06 tbsp
Total (150.1%)          793.8g 28 oz 1.75 lbs TF=N/A

entered in dough weight per ball 28 oz. for biga
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on December 31, 2009, 09:21:06 AM
Norma,

Your math looks OK. So, it does appear that you do have the math DNA after all. However, I noticed that in the opening post you used IDY at 0.26% and a thickness factor of 0.10 instead of 0.088. I couldn't tell why you made the changes but there is no reason why you can't transform the original recipe you posted into the Lehmann preferment format, using TF = 0.10. The numbers will change, of course.

I will be anxious to see the results you achieve, with whatever final dough formulation you settle on. I am especially curious to see the degree of extensibility you get using the relatively low hydration values for the biga-like preferment (50%) and the basic dough formulation (56%).

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on December 31, 2009, 11:49:41 AM
Peter,
I didnít realize I had changed the IDY.  Since I have never done this before, I thought you just took off the 0.1 % from the dough recipe and put that into the preferment. For the thickness factor I went back to some of the first posts I had made and then you told me that a typical NY thin pizza would be 0.088. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8341.0.html Reply #1   I am not ready to change the numbers now.  For me to even vaguely figure this out, the time was about 4 hours.  If I go on to further experiments, then I am willing to try and figure out the numbers, again.  My math skills are really lacking, but the common sense still comes into play.

Weíll see if Tom Lehmann knows what he is talking about when he said the preferment will make a softer dough.  He should know after all his experience.  I am anxious to try this out, too.  It will be my first step in making any kind of preferment.
Thanks for your help, Peter.  When I went back to my first post and all the questions I asked, I just had to keep laughing.  But with your help and everyoneís help on this forum I have least come this far.  I know I will never stop learning different ways to make pizza and that is what makes this challenging and fun.
Thank you everyone for all the help you have given me.  :)
Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on December 31, 2009, 02:38:15 PM
Norma,

If you had subtracted 0.1% from 0.26%, you would have gotten 0.16%, not 0.25%. Tom's description was not entirely clear about whether the 0.1% IDY was with respect to the preferment flour or the total flour. I assumed that it was with respect to the preferment flour (which is the standard method) since he says that the preferment should be added to the mixing bowl with "the full compliment (sic) of IDY ". In your case, the full complement of IDY would be 0.26% (as per your original recipe posted in this thread).

I must say that I have some doubts about the softening effects of the relatively low hydration biga-like preferment. Usually, such preferments penalize extensibility. Maybe Tom is thinking of using commercial mixers or possibly softening effects due to lower acid production because of refrigeration of the preferment. Usually bigas are prefermented at room temperature.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on December 31, 2009, 02:57:57 PM
Norma,

If you had subtracted 0.1% from 0.26%, you would have gotten 0.16%, not 0.25%. Tom's description was not entirely clear about whether the 0.1% IDY was with respect to the preferment flour or the total flour. I assumed that it was with respect to the preferment flour (which is the standard method) since he says that the preferment should be added to the mixing bowl with "the full compliment (sic) of IDY ". In your case, the full complement of IDY would be 0.26% (as per your original recipe posted in this thread).

I must say that I have some doubts about the softening effects of the relatively low hydration biga-like preferment. Usually, such preferments penalize extensibility. Maybe Tom is thinking of using commercial mixers or possibly softening effects due to lower acid production because of refrigeration of the preferment. Usually bigas are prefermented at room temperature.

Peter

Peter,
You can see how my math lacking skills make this challenging for me.   :-\  I will remember what you just taught me the next time.

What do you suggest I do?  Do you think I should just make the preferment as stated the day before and then incorporate into my regular formula for Lehmann dough on Monday?  That could give me a higher hydration, right?  ???

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on December 31, 2009, 03:27:27 PM
Norma,

What day do you actually make the pizzas, Monday or Tuesday?

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on December 31, 2009, 04:31:13 PM
Peter,
I make the pizzas, Tuesday.
Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on December 31, 2009, 04:50:30 PM
Norma,

For now, I would go with the method described by Tom Lehmann. He doesn't say when you should start the preferment but I think the relatively low hydration of his preferment should allow you to start the preferment Sunday morning, put it in the deli case until the next morning (Monday morning), make the final dough on Monday morning, and put the finished dough balls into the deli case for use on Tuesday, in your usual manner. It might also be possible to start the sequence on Saturday morning and give the finished dough balls two days of cold fermentation instead of one. That might give you even more crust flavor.

I think it is hard to get softness and good extensibility in a dough when everything (the preferment and finished dough) is of relatively low hydration. However, the best way to get an answer on this point is to make some test dough and see for yourself. If the dough is too stiff as you are making it, you can always add more water.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on December 31, 2009, 05:09:19 PM
Peter,
I will try the dough as planned before.  Make the preferment Sunday and add to the other ingredients on Monday. 
Yes, I agree the only way to find out is to test and see what happens.
Thanks,
Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Ev on January 01, 2010, 11:37:08 AM
I am following this thread with great interest as I've also been thinking about trying preferments myself. Also, I am familiar with Normas pizza. I may just stop by on Tuesday to see the results first hand.
Keep up the good work!
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 01, 2010, 11:53:04 AM
Steve,
Stop over anytime in the day.  I will save one or more dough balls so you can taste the finished pizza and how this preferment worked out.  I really have reservations about this preferment.  ::)  We all can learn together.
Thanks,
Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 02, 2010, 02:24:55 PM
I was wondering if I used Napoli Antimo Caputo tipo "00" to make my preferment, would this flour have a high enough protein content to try for my first preferment?  I have part of a bag left over and was just wondering if this might be okay.
Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on January 02, 2010, 03:00:48 PM
Norma,

It's your call, but from what you have indicated to be your objective I think I would go with the all-KASL approach for your first preferment try for the Lehmann NY style. If you don't like the results, then there are many other possible options, including using a Caputo-KASL flour blend. I used November's Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at http://foodsim.toastguard.com/ and it says that a blend of 1/3 Caputo flour and 2/3 KASL flour will have an effective protein content of 13.445%. Such a blend should still yield decent crust color and it may also be more amenable to a lower hydration value.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 02, 2010, 06:10:40 PM
Peter,
Thank you for your advise and using Novemberís Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator. 
I will go ahead as planned.  I just wanted to know if this ratio would also work with the different protein levels for a first preferment.
I will proceed with the KASL preferment tomorrow.
Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: torontonian on January 03, 2010, 02:01:46 PM
Peter,

There was a Lehmann recipe that you had posted previously that used a poolish preferment. I used it and remember thinking the results were excellent. Forgetting to bookmark it, I've searched the NY forum high and low but can't find it. I'm thinking it may have been sandwiched into another thread somewhere.

By chance do you know the one?

If it helps to understand what I am trying to do, here are the key points. I plan to:

- Use an initial poolish and create a dough that will cold ferment overnight
- Use a flour blend using VWG to boost the protein to a 14 or so percent level
- Cook on a stone at about 650 degrees

What I would like to find is bakers percents that will produce a good result given the above. Can you suggest something or point me to the thread I previously used?

Thanks so much.

-- Josh
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on January 03, 2010, 02:55:49 PM
Josh,

You've got me scratching my head on this one. I have made so many different doughs that I sometimes forget that I have made some of them. I did modify the basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation to use preferments but the only dough formulations I posted on the forum used natural preferments and, if memory serves, the preferments did not have the consistency of poolish preferments. I did attempt a poolish version of the basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation on a couple of occasions using commercial yeast but I did not post the dough formulations because I was not crazy with the results. I showed one of the pizzas using a poolish version of the Lehmann NY dough formulation at Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2571.msg22380/topicseen.html#msg22380, but, as you will see in that post, I did not post the dough formulation itself. I did suggest a poolish version of the Lehmann NY style dough formulation to another member, at Reply 5 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1593.msg14545.html#msg14545, but I did not try the dough formulation myself.

I have also borrowed preferment principles from Tom Lehmann and others and incorporated those principles in various dough formulations. One example of a modification of the Lehmann dough formulation to use a biga-like preferment is described at Reply 362 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg23239.html#msg23239. I also used a sponge method borrowed from Tom Lehmann to modify a version of the JerryMac NY style dough formulation, at Reply 28 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6515.msg62814.html#msg62814. A short while ago, I suggested a dough formulation using a poolish preferment to Mike (Essen1), at Reply 244 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8093.msg83972.html#msg83972, but the dough formulation in that case was not a modification of the Lehmann dough formulation but rather borrowed preferment (poolish) principles suggested by Didier Rosada.

Maybe the above links will jog your memory further.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: torontonian on January 03, 2010, 09:53:36 PM
Thanks Peter.

None of these are exactly the one I was thinking about, but great reads nontheless. I was thinking of one that used a standard Lehmann recipe, without added sugar, barley malt or otherwise. Thinking about it again, I may have just followed a poolish recipe and applied it to the standard Lehmann recipe. If I recall, the thread you posted specified poolish breakdowns (primarily yeast content) for 3, 8, and 24 hour poolishes. I might be wrong about the 3, 8, and 24 but it was something along those lines. I used the 8 hour and liked the result.

What might you recommend in terms of the goals? I say poolish, as thats the only preferment I've tried, but would be open to a sponge, biga, etc.

Quote
If it helps to understand what I am trying to do, here are the key points. I plan to:

- Use an initial poolish and create a dough that will cold ferment overnight
- Use a flour blend using VWG to boost the protein to a 14 or so percent level
- Cook on a stone at about 650 degrees
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on January 03, 2010, 10:17:10 PM
Josh,

Since Norma started this thread with a particular objective in mind, I would rather await her results before taking the thread off in too many directions and hijacking her thread. If you'd like to start a new thread with whatever objectives you would like to explore, we can address them in that thread. In the meantime, maybe I can find the poolish posts you mentioned in your last post.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on January 04, 2010, 01:19:29 PM
Norma,

For your information, I discovered from a search yesterday that I had, in fact, posted a poolish version of the basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation, at Reply 23 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6588.msg56632.html#msg56632. Given that I was not particularly impressed with the results of that formulation, it was presented for instructional/educational purposes only.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 04, 2010, 02:45:27 PM
Peter,
Thank you for linking so I could see the preferment you used.  What were your conclusions as why the pizza tasted more like French Bread?  Do you think if you had used high gluten flour your results would have been the same?  Since you used 100% of the water for the poolish, do you think that was also a factor in getting a different result? Does a classical poolish always include 100% of the water? I donít know that much about making French Bread or poolish, so I am just asking questions

I did use the  biga today and was really surprised.  The dough seemed more hydrated than my normal Lehmann dough.  If fact, sticky..I had to add bench flour to be able to form the dough balls. The dough was very smooth.  Still canít figure that out.  I did take pictures, but have to go away for awhile. I will post the pictures, temperatures and how the dough was later, today.

Thanks,
Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on January 04, 2010, 04:40:36 PM
Norma,

After re-reading the post I referenced, and based on the date of that post, I apparently used the same approach as I used to make a version of JerryMac's highly successful NY style dough formulation (as discussed at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6515.0.html). The poolish for my original JerryMac dough formulation used 100% of the formula water, just as JerryMac used for his poolish-like preferment for his dough recipe. Based on the articles on preferments by Didier Rosada, technically my preferment was a poolish but, by his teachings, it should have constituted 20-80% of the total formula water. I was aware of that at the time but I was trying to see if I could achieve similarly successful results with my modification of the Lehmann NY style dough formulation as I did with JerryMac's. The answer is that I did not. Were I to re-do a poolish version of the Lehmann NY style dough formulation, I think I would use a different approach--one more consistent with the classic poolish method, just as I did with Essen1's dough formulation at Reply 244 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8093.msg83972.html#msg83972.

I am surprised by the stickiness of the dough you made using the biga. If you have a chance sometime, can you post the entire dough formulation you used and the amounts of ingredients you used to make the poolish and the final mix? If you took the weight of the finished dough, that would also be helpful.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 04, 2010, 05:45:15 PM
Peter,
Thanks you for referencing those articles.  I would read over them.  I thought my dough today would be dryer than my normal Lehmann dough.  The only thing I can think of that might influenced my preferment was I used my new Taylor digital scale to prepare the biga.  I am not too thrilled with it and might take it back. 
Since it was cold at market today, I had to use my hot plate to warm the water. For my normal dough.  I wanted to get a finished dough temperature of between 80-85 degrees F., but it is hard to get an exact temperature with it being so cold at market. I did need to incorporate a little flour to make the dough balls.  Four of the dough balls were oiled and put into plastic containers.  The fifth dough balls was put into a plastic bag.  I did have a little dough left and just incorporated it into my normal Lehmann dough.

The temperatures from the normal dough were:
Water Temp:                 110 degrees F
Flour Temp:                    48 degrees F
Room Temp:                   48 degrees F
Finished Dough Temp:    77 degrees F

For the biga that was made yesterday morning at 8:00 I used a water temperature of 90 degrees, mixed and left on counter for 15 minutes and then into the fridge until this morning at 8:00.  I had been checking on the biga and it didnít look like it had changed.  I left it out of the fridge for 3 hours.  When the biga was incorporated into the dough at 11:00 am this morning it still didnít change. Just looked like flour on the bottom and water in the top.  I did stir the biga before incorporating into the dough.

Dough used KASL

Flour (100):                       1601.05 g     56.47 oz.    3.53 lbs
Water (56%)                        896.59 g     31.63 oz.    1.98 lbs.
IDY (0.25%)                               4 g 0.14 oz 0.01 lbs. 1.33 tsp 0.44 tbsp.
Salt (1.75%)                            28.02g 0.99 oz. 0.06 lbs 5.84 tsp 1.95 tbsp
Oil (1%)                                  16.01 g 0.56 oz. 0.04 lbs. 3.56 tsp. 1.19 tbsp
Total (159%)                      2545.67 g 89.79 oz. 5.61 lbs. TF=0.08932
Single Ball:                           509.13 g 17.96 oz. 1.12 lbs

used a thickness factor of 0.088
pizza size 16"

Preferment Biga used KASL

Flour (100%)            528.85 g 18.65 oz. 1.17 lbs.
Water (50%)             264.42 g 9.33 oz. 0.58 lbs
IDY (0.1%)               0.53 g 0.02 oz 0 lbs 0.18 tsp 0.06 tbsp
Total (150.1%)          793.8g 28 oz 1.75 lbs TF=N/A

entered in dough weight per ball 28 oz. for biga

Maybe you can come to some conclusions as what might have happened by looking at the formula and pictures.  I will proceed with the dough being made into the pizza, tomorrow.

Thanks,
Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on January 04, 2010, 06:08:45 PM
Norma,

The part that is missing from your post is the Final Mix and its composition. However, looking at the photos, the dough can't possibly be a 56% hydration dough. A 50% hydration preferment using 0.1% IDY and cold fermented overnight, and even with a 3-hour warm-up time, cannot transform the final dough into one with a hydration that I estimate to be over 70%. So, something went awry.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 04, 2010, 06:25:37 PM
Peter,
That's what I was thinking, too.  I will take my Taylor scale back and purchase another brand or different model.  I believe either this model wasn't working right or I didn't measure the biga right, although I was trying to measure precisely.

How is a biga supposed to look?

Do you know what Tom Lehmann was referring to when he made this post?  He said the dough will be a little softer, so to correct for this, we reduce the absorption a little to help maintain the desired dough consistency.

PN;
That's correct. Because of the fermented sponge portion, the dough will be a little softer, so to correct for this, we reduce the absorption a little to help maintain the desired dough consistency.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor


I will still try to proceed  using the dough tomorrow. 

Could you tell me what I need to change to try this next week?

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on January 04, 2010, 07:21:02 PM
Norma,

For the benefit of those who are following this thread, the quote you recited comes from the PMQ Think Tank thread at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=8419.

I interpret the quoted portion to mean that a sponge (actually the consistency is more a biga consistency) will soften the final dough and, to combat this, the total formula hydration is lowered. That is why Tom specified a total dough hydration of 56% instead of the 58% hydration that you have been using. A classic biga with around 50% hydration will be a stiff piece of dough.

I took the dough formulation you posted in Reply 38 of this thread, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg86384.html#msg86384, with the 56% hydration that Tom recommended, and transformed it into the following three-part format set forth below. In this transformation, I assumed that the 0.1% IDY was with respect to the preferment flour rather than the total formula flour, and that the full complement of the total formula yeast, 0.25%, is used in the Final Mix.

Total Lehmann NY Style Dough Formulation
King Arthur Sir Lancelot Flour (100%):
Water (56%):
IDY (0.25%):
Salt (1.75%):
Olive Oil (1%):
Total (159%):
Single Ball:
1601.05 g  |  56.47 oz | 3.53 lbs
896.59 g  |  31.63 oz | 1.98 lbs
4 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.33 tsp | 0.44 tbsp
28.02 g | 0.99 oz | 0.06 lbs | 5.02 tsp | 1.67 tbsp
16.01 g | 0.56 oz | 0.04 lbs | 3.56 tsp | 1.19 tbsp
2545.67 g | 89.79 oz | 5.61 lbs | TF = 0.08932
509.13 g | 17.96 oz | 1.12 lbs
Note: Nominal thickness factor = 0.088; for five dough balls for five 16" pizzas; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

Preferment
King Arthur Sir Lancelot Flour (100%):
Water (50%):
IDY (0.10%):
Total (150.1%):
533.68 g  |  18.82 oz | 1.18 lbs
266.84 g  |  9.41 oz | 0.59 lbs
0.53 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.18 tsp | 0.06 tbsp
801.06 g | 28.26 oz | 1.77 lbs
Note: Preferment flour represents 1/3 of the total formula flour (1/3 x 1601.05 = 533.68); the IDY is with respect to the preferment flour

Final Mix
Preferment (as noted above): 801.06 grams (28.26 ounces)
Remaining 2/3 of the King Arthur Sir Lancelot flour: 1067.37 grams (37.65 ounces)
Remaining total formula water: 629.75 grams (22.21 ounces) [Note: 896.59-266.84 = 629.75)
Total formula IDY (0.25%): 4 grams | 0.14 ounces | 0.01 lbs | 1.33 tsp | 0.44 tbsp
Total formula salt (1.75%): 28.02 grams | 0.99 ounces | 0.06 lbs | 5.02 tsp | 1.67 tbsp
Total formula oil (1%): 16.01 grams | 0.56 ounces | 0.04 lbs | 3.56 tsp | 1.19 tbsp
Total dough weight = 2546.21 grams (89.81 ounces, or 5.61 lbs)

You will note that I treated the two additions of yeast separately. I could have added the preferment yeast to the basic Lehmann dough formulation instead, which would have changed the numbers slightly (actually, very slightly). But, I stuck to the procedures recommended by Tom.

In preparing the dough, you should have made the preferment as instructed by Tom and you should have used it the next day in the Final Mix along with the rest of the ingredients as referenced above in the Final Mix. Did your numbers mirror those given above, or something close to them?

Peter




Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 04, 2010, 08:11:33 PM
Peter,
They were close, but not exactly like yours.

Here is what I was following:

Preferment:

Flour (100%)                525.85g   18.65oz.  1.17lbs
Water (50%)                264.42g     9.33oz.  0.58lbs
IDY (0.1%)                   0.53g        0.02oz.  0 lbs.  0.18tsp   0.06tbsp
Total (150.1%)             793.8g       28 oz.    1.75lbs.  TF=N/A

Total Lehmann Dough Ingredients

Flour (100%)               1601.05g     56.47oz  3.53 lbs
Water (56%)                 896.59g     31.63oz  1.98lbs
IDY (0.25%)                      4g         0.14oz  0.01lbs  1.33tsp 0.44 tbsp
Salt (1.75%)                   28.02g     0.99oz  0.06lbs.  5.84 tsp  1.95 tbsp
Oil (1%)                          16.01g     0.56oz  0.04lbs  3.56tsp  1.19 tbsp
Total (159%)                2545.67g    89.79oz  5.61lbs  TF=0.08932
Single Ball:                      509.13     17.96oz  1.12lbs   
 
I must have measured wrong when mixing the biga, since you have explained it should have been a stiff piece of dough instead of the liquid. 
Thank you for posting your results in what should have happened with the biga and Tom Lehmann's explanations in your interpretation. 
Thanks,
Norma 
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on January 04, 2010, 08:22:48 PM
Norma,

Was your final mix like what I set forth? To get a final dough hydration of over 70% because of a faulty preferment, you would have needed a lot of water in the preferment. BTW, I estimated your final dough hydration based on the second photo at Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6515.msg56131.html#msg56131. The dough shown in that photo had a roughly 65% hydration. Your dough seemed quite a bit wetter than that.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 04, 2010, 08:39:57 PM
Peter,
I didnít subtract any water from the Total Lehmann Dough Ingredients. No wonder I had a sticky dough.  I wonder how high the hydration was?  My guess would be 65% or above..based on the photo referenced. lol
Thanks for pointing me in the right direction.  I will learn all this in time.  Thanks for your help.
Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on January 04, 2010, 08:46:32 PM
Norma,

It will still be interesting to see if you get the desired results using the biga/preferment version of the Lehmann dough formulation.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 04, 2010, 08:53:09 PM
Peter,
I am still laughing..I still will try it tomorrow (whatever it is).  Next week, I will try to get the preferment and the subtracted water right.
Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 05, 2010, 09:39:29 PM
Well..this is what happened with the (whatever dough).  I had messed up making my first preferment, but tried the (whatever dough), today.  Steve also tried the (whatever dough). 
The dough was very soft.  There wasnít any problems when opening the dough.  We decided the taste of the crust was different, but couldnít decide what the difference was.  If Steve has any suggestions on how he thought the pizza tasted, he can also comment. 
I used four of the dough balls today.  I like the taste of the pizza, but donít really think this is what I am looking for in improving my crust.  The (whatever dough) rose in the container about double until today.
I think using the longer ferment gave me a better flavor in terms of crust flavor. 
I will try again next week to make the preferment, again.  Hopefully this time I will measure the biga right and subtract the water for the portion of the regular Lehmann dough, which I didnít do this week. 
I froze one dough ball of the (whatever dough) to try next week.
Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 05, 2010, 09:40:29 PM
The rest of the pictures.
Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 07, 2010, 08:29:18 AM
Does anyone know if taking the pH of either this preferment biga dough or my regular Lehmann dough will give me additional information on how the flour in the dough is depleting natural sugar?  ???
I do have a pH meter, but don't really understand how this can tell me what has happened from the time I mix the dough, until the time I am ready to use the dough to make a pizza.  ::)
Is it really worth experimenting with a pH meter?
Thanks,
Norma

Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 10, 2010, 01:14:07 PM
The biga was mixed today.  It will be incorporated into the dough tomorrow.  It looks like a biga this time.
 
Hope I got it right this second attempt.

I think this whole pizza making is getting addictive!  ::)

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 11, 2010, 08:35:40 AM
For anyone that is following this tread, Tom Lehmann did answer pizzanerd and my questions.  If you want to see what he said, here is the link.

http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=8419&p=57042#p57042

I am now more excited to see what happens with the crust flavor, tomorrow.  I also find how Tom Lehmann talks about adding beer can also contribute to better crust flavors very informative.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 11, 2010, 03:34:52 PM
Peter,

I wanted to ask a question as to Tom Lehmann's explanation on how to use the sponge (biga)?  I read and his explanation and don't really understand what could have happened to the preferment and dough with the final incorporating.  Before I post any pictures, I would like to understand this more.

Thanks,
Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on January 11, 2010, 05:16:45 PM
Norma,

Are you referring to the last dough you made using the sponge/biga?

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 11, 2010, 05:32:38 PM
Peter,

It was the dough made today, with the sponge (biga).  I followed the instructions and in the final mix of the preferment being incorporating into the final dough, the dough was so dry it didn't want to be pick up by the dough hook.  The dough was finally incorporated.  I don't know what I might have done wrong, but I don't think I will even be able to use it tomorrow. 

Thanks,
Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on January 11, 2010, 06:28:12 PM
Norma,

As noted in a couple of earlier posts in this thread, I wondered what would happen when you tried to combine a poolish/biga with a hydration of 50% into a dough with a 56% final hydration. That is one of the reasons why I suggested in Reply 45 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg86428.html#msg86428 that you consider adding more water if the final dough was too stiff. I have made doughs with hydrations in the low 50s before in my standard KitchenAid stand mixer and it is not easy to do. In your case, I would continue with the plan and see if the dough softens up during the cold fermentation and becomes extensible enough for you to open up the dough balls tomorrow when you plan to use them.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 11, 2010, 08:37:25 PM

Peter,

In reply #37 when King Arthur Flour sent me an email and told me what a biga was and how 10-15% is used in the final dough, I then had reservations how well this would work.  Tom Lehmann said the preferment flour represents 1/3 of the total formula flour.
 
This is what King Arthur Flour told me a biga was:

A biga is 50-60% hydration using about 1% yeast as well.  A big is
generally about 10-15% of the final dough.

In reply # 48 I told Steve I really had reservations about this preferment.

In reply # 45 you suggested : For now, I would go with the method described by Tom Lehmann and later in the same reply: If the dough is too stiff as you are making it, you can always add more water.

I did have reservations on the low hydration, but had wanted to try the preferment as stated by Tom Lehmann and not stray from that, so I could see if this worked.  That is why I didn't add more water.

Here are the pictures of the dough.  I couldnít form it into a ball that could be closed.  I worked on each dough ball about 15 minutes with no success.

Picture 1 mixed dough with preferment
Picture 2 top of dough ball
Picture 3 bottom of dough ball

Thanks, Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on January 11, 2010, 08:51:08 PM
Norma,

In light of the results you got, you might want to elicit a response from Tom. Out of curiosity, did you let the sponge/biga warm up before adding the remaining ingredients as part of the final mix? That would perhaps facilitate the final mix but I am not sure that it would be required.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 11, 2010, 09:14:27 PM
Peter,

It did have a warm-up of 2 hours, but the temperature at market was 48 degrees F, so I am not sure how much difference that would have made.

I will post again on the same subject and see what Tom Lehann has to say. I will wait until I try the dough tomorrow.  I really don't have much hope for it, though.

Thanks for your help.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on January 11, 2010, 09:24:00 PM
Norma,

No doubt making the dough at a room temperature of 48 degrees F was not a big help. I say this because I have found that cold doughs are hard to knead in a cohesive manner. This was a major lesson that I learned when I experimented with doughs that were to be frozen at the outset and where all of the ingredients were cold.

It is common to use warm water as part of the final mix when the preferment is cold. It is hard to say whether the cold room temperature was a factor in your case. You might mention that fact to Tom.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 11, 2010, 09:40:54 PM
Peter,

Thanks for the information.  I did note all the temperatures when making the dough and then incorporating the final dough.  I used a water temperature of 124 degrees F and only got a final dough temperature of 78 degrees F. 

Thanks,

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on January 11, 2010, 09:43:33 PM
Norma,

That was good thinking on your part. There is nothing wrong with a finished dough temperature of 78 degrees F. To me it sounds like a hydration problem but I'd like to hear Tom's explanation.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 12, 2010, 09:44:05 PM
Peter and others that are following this thread,

The dough sure didnít work out today.  Here are some pictures what happened with the dough.  I didnít even bother to dressed it, because it was too hard to open.  I just put the opened dough in the oven to see what would happen.  When I tasted the rim, it was very bready tasting.  The brown parts were like a cracker. 
I have one other question to ask.  When making the dough before adding the preferement, why do you subtract any water from that formula?  ???  Doesnít that make the final dough a lower hydration?  I can understand why Tom Lehmann said  to make the preferment a lower hydration, but with two lower hydrations of the preferment and then final dough, I can see how this dough didnít have much chance for success.

Thanks,
Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on January 12, 2010, 10:07:09 PM
Norma,

I use a three step process. I start with selecting the basic dough formulation that I want to convert to a preferment process. I then "carve" out a piece of that dough formulation to be used to make the preferment. That is the second step. The amount of preferment, its specific composition and prefermentation method will be determined based on the type of preferment I want to use. Each type of preferment has its own set of rules. The third step is the Final Mix. In the Final Mix, the preferment is added to the rest of the ingredients that were not used to make the preferment. That means that the flour and water and yeast that were not used to make the preferment go into the Final Mix along with preferment and the other ingredients like salt, sugar and oil. There is no way that the preferment can result in a lower hydration for the basic dough formulation as converted to use the preferment. There may be some extensibility issues that may require action but the numerical hydration value should remain fairly constant (there might be a little evaporation of water in the preferment). A mathematical subtraction to get to the Final Mix is not the same thing as removing water from a dough formulation.

If you repeat the exercise but use a hydration of say, 62%, for the basic Lehmann dough formulation, I think you will get better results in terms of extensibility. One of the things that made me wonder about Tom's sponge/biga is that a biga is often used to strengthen a dough and is considered to be a good choice to use with a dough that has a high hydration. This is discussed in one of the Didier Rosada articles that I previously referenced.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 12, 2010, 10:39:03 PM
Norma,

I use a three step process. I start with selecting the basic dough formulation that I want to convert to a preferment process. I then "carve" out a piece of that dough formulation to be used to make the preferment. That is the second step. The amount of preferment, its specific composition and prefermentation method will be determined based on the type of preferment I want to use. Each type of preferment has its own set of rules. The third step is the Final Mix. In the Final Mix, the preferment is added to the rest of the ingredients that were not used to make the preferment. That means that the flour and water and yeast that were not used to make the preferment go into the Final Mix along with preferment and the other ingredients like salt, sugar and oil. There is no way that the preferment can result in a lower hydration for the basic dough formulation as converted to use the preferment. There may be some extensibility issues that may require action but the numerical hydration value should remain fairly constant (there might be a little evaporation of water in the preferment). A mathematical subtraction to get to the Final Mix is not the same thing as removing water from a dough formulation.

If you repeat the exercise but use a hydration of say, 62%, for the basic Lehmann dough formulation, I think you will get better results in terms of extensibility. One of the things that made me wonder about Tom's sponge/biga is that a biga is often used to strengthen a dough and is considered to be a good choice to use with a dough that has a high hydration. This is discussed in one of the Didier Rosada articles that I previously referenced.

Peter


Peter,

Thank you for the explanation. I didn't know there had to be a three step process, although you had said it was transformed into a three-part format. I thought what the heck is that?  I just had used the Lehmann calculator and figured the preferment, then used the Lehmann calculator and figured out the dough formula.  When you asked me last week what my final remaining water was in the regular dough, I still couldn't get what I was doing wrong. I then looked at what you posted for the preferment and final dough.  I still didn't understand what to do.  Since I am new to all of this, it might take me awhile to digest all that is involved, especially the math part to be able to figure out what my formula would be for 62%. I will read Didier Rosada articles before I proceed what to do next.
I think your idea of 62% is a better idea, if I can get the math part figured out.

Thanks,
Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on January 12, 2010, 10:43:04 PM
Norma,

I'd like you to take a first cut with the numbers because that is the best way to learn. You can still use the sponge/biga method that Tom described but with the higher hydration dough. I will help you with the numbers if you need my help after you take the first stab at the numbers.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 12, 2010, 10:49:01 PM
Norma,

I'd like you to take a first cut with the numbers because that is the best way to learn. You can still use the sponge/biga method that Tom described but with the higher hydration dough. I will help you with the numbers if you need my help after you take the first stab at the numbers.

Peter

Peter,

I will take a stab at doing the numbers.  I will post when I think I have them figured out.  I know I need to learn to do this, so eventually I can figure this out myself. 

Thanks for your help,

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 13, 2010, 10:56:00 PM
Peter,

I just wondered if I need more than a calculator to be able to figure the 62% hydration.  Do I still keep the preferment at a lower hydration? 
I probably am going to be at the hospital tomorrow and maybe Friday for the birth of my great-granddaughter. 
If you think I might be able to figure this out on a regular calculator, I will try.  I need something to keep myself occupied.  I have printed out your instructions at reply #84 and have a copy of reply #62.  My original dough formula for the preferment and dough would go along, too.

Thanks,
Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on January 14, 2010, 09:15:28 AM
Norma,

All you need is a simple calculator to do basic math. For now, I think I would stick with the lower hydration of the sponge/biga. The problem wasn't with the hydration of the preferment, it was the hydration of the total formula. You may want to use one of the dough calculating tools to come up with the basic dough formulation at 62% and print it out. That dough formulation is the starting point for everything.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 14, 2010, 09:21:54 AM
Peter,

Thank you for the information.  I will use one of the calculators before I have to be at the hospital at 12:00 pm and that will give me a starting point.  I have also printed out the two articles by Didier Rosada and will read them, also. 

Thanks,
Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on January 14, 2010, 09:36:18 AM
Norma,

I see that Tom addressed your problem with the last dough, at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=57100#p57100, and that he suggested that you increase the amount of water by at least 5%. I assume he means the total formula hydration, not the hydration of the sponge/biga. If so, then his suggestion is right in line with my suggested hydration (62%) in Reply 84 in this thread. Unless I misinterpreted his suggestion, it looks like our instincts were right all along. Once we see the next results, we can decide whether 62% hydration is too high or too low, especially for a commercial application where you have been using 59% hydration.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 14, 2010, 10:26:10 AM
Peter,

Yes, Tom Lehmann did address my questions and I was going to post this, after I tried the higher hydration.  I will ask Tom Lehmann if he means the total formula hydration, not the hydration of the sponge/biga.  We will see what he responds. 

Thanks,
Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 15, 2010, 08:45:23 AM
Tom Lehmann answered my question at PMQTT.  If anyone is interested is reading what he had to say, here is the link.

http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=8419&p=57145#p57131

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 15, 2010, 09:37:03 PM
Peter,

I think I have the formula for the preferment and dough figured out.  I will post tomorrow, when I have time to get my papers in order.

Norma


I am now a new great-grandmother.  My granddaughter gave birth this morning at 5:56 am to a baby girl.  She is beautiful.  Ashanti weighed 8 lb. 3 oz.  After 18 hours of labor the doctors finally decided to do a Cesarean Section  They are both doing well.

Maybe someday she will be my pizza making buddy.  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Bob1 on January 15, 2010, 10:04:19 PM
Norma,
Congratulations, but what amazes me more is that your mother is a "Great Great Grandmother"

Thanks,

Bob1
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 15, 2010, 10:18:43 PM
Bob1,

Thank you for the congratulations.  :)  Yes, my mother is now the Great Great Grandmother and she still helps me at 87 years old.  I am very fortunate!  :D  Five generations, now.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Matthew on January 16, 2010, 04:21:35 AM
Peter,

I think I have the formula for the preferment and dough figured out.  I will post tomorrow, when I have time to get my papers in order.

Norma


I am now a new great-grandmother.  My granddaughter gave birth this morning at 5:56 am to a baby girl.  She is beautiful.  Ashanti weighed 8 lb. 3 oz.  After 18 hours of labor the doctors finally decided to do a Cesarean Section  They are both doing well.

Maybe someday she will be my pizza making buddy.  :)

Norma

She's beautiful, God bless.

Matt
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 16, 2010, 06:33:21 AM
She's beautiful, God bless.

Matt


Matt,

Thank you very much and we were truly blessed by God.  My granddaughter had so many complications during pregnancy and also gestational diabetes.   Then the epidural only partially worked and after Ashanti was delivered by Cesarean Section, the doctor, midwife and nurses said the umbilical cord was the longest they had ever seen.  It was wrapped all around her body and neck.  Only God knows what could have happened if she was left to deliver normally.  Very thankful for the great doctor, midwife and nurses.
You just never know what twist or turn your life will take.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on January 16, 2010, 10:08:42 AM
Norma,

Congratulations. It is a blessed event.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 16, 2010, 10:11:23 AM
Peter,

Thank you, and yes it was.  :)

This is what I came up with in trying to calculate the dough and preferment.  Let me know if this is okay or what I could have done wrong.  ::)


Total Lehmann NY Style Dough Formulation
KASL (100%)

Flour (100%):    1542.83 g  |  54.42 oz | 3.4 lbs
Water (62%):      956.55 g  |  33.74 oz | 2.11 lbs
IDY (0.25%):     3.86 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.28 tsp | 0.43 tbsp
Salt (1.75%):      27 g | 0.95 oz | 0.06 lbs | 5.62 tsp | 1.87 tbsp
Oil (1%):                 15.43 g | 0.54 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.43 tsp | 1.14 tbsp
Total (165%):     2545.67 g | 89.79 oz | 5.61 lbs | TF = 0.08932
Single Ball:                509.13 g | 17.96 oz | 1.12 lbs


Preferment Biga (Sponge)

Preferment
King Arthur Sir Lancelot Flour (100%): 533.68 g  |  18.82 oz | 1.18 lbs
Water (50%):                                           266.84 g  |  9.41 oz | 0.59 lbs
266.84 g  |  9.41 oz | 0.59 lbs           0.53 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.18 tsp | 0.06 tbsp
IDY (0.10%):
Total (150.1%)                                        :801.06 g | 28.26 oz | 1.77 lbs

Remaining total water for Basic Lehmann NY Style Formulation 855.1554
Note: 1121.9954-266.84=855.1554

Thanks,
Norma

Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on January 16, 2010, 12:14:50 PM
Norma,

Some of your numbers are incorrect, starting with the amount of the biga flour, and some of the data got garbled. But, if my math is correct, this is what the dough formulation should look like when transformed to a biga preferment format:

Total Lehmann NY Style Dough Formulation II
King Arthur Sir Lancelot Flour (100%):
Water (62%):
IDY (0.25%):
Salt (1.75%):
Olive Oil (1%):
Total (165%):
Single Ball:
1542.83 g  |  54.42 oz | 3.4 lbs
956.55 g  |  33.74 oz | 2.11 lbs
3.86 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.28 tsp | 0.43 tbsp
27 g | 0.95 oz | 0.06 lbs | 4.84 tsp | 1.61 tbsp
15.43 g | 0.54 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.43 tsp | 1.14 tbsp
2545.67 g | 89.79 oz | 5.61 lbs | TF = 0.08932
509.13 g | 17.96 oz | 1.12 lbs
Note: Nominal thickness factor = 0.088; for five dough balls for five 16" pizzas; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

Preferment (Biga)
King Arthur Sir Lancelot Flour (100%):
Water (50%):
IDY (0.10%):
Total (150.1%):
514.28 g  |  18.14 oz | 1.13 lbs
257.14 g  |  9.07 oz | 0.57 lbs
0.51 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.17 tsp | 0.06 tbsp
771.93 g | 27.23 oz | 1.7 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: Preferment flour represents 1/3 of the total formula flour (1542.83 grams/3 = 514.28 grams); the IDY is with respect to the preferment flour

Final Mix
Preferment (as noted above): 771.93 grams (27.23 ounces)
Remaining 2/3 of the King Arthur Sir Lancelot flour: (2 x 1542.83)/3 grams =1028.55 grams (36.28 ounces)
Remaining total formula water: 956.55 grams from Total Lehmann Formulation minus 257.14 grams from Biga = 699.41 grams (24.67 ounces)
Total formula IDY, from Total Lehmann Formulation (0.25%): 3.86 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.28 tsp | 0.43 tbsp
Total formula salt, from Total Lehmann Formulation (1.75%): 27 g | 0.95 oz | 0.06 lbs | 4.84 tsp | 1.61 tbsp
Total formula oil, from Total Lehmann Formulation (1%): 15.43 g | 0.54 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.43 tsp | 1.14 tbsp
Total dough weight = 771.93 grams + 1028.55 grams + 699.41 grams + 3.86 grams + 27 grams + 15.43 grams = 2546.18 grams (89.81 ounces, or 5.61 lb)

As before, you will note that I treated the two additions of yeast separately. I could have added the preferment yeast to the basic Lehmann dough formulation instead, which would have changed the numbers slightly (actually, very slightly). But, I again stuck to the procedures recommended by Tom.

FYI, I again used the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html to come up with the total Lehmann dough formulation but I also used the tool to come up with the numbers for the biga preferment, which eliminated the potential for garbling the numbers. However, to do this, I first had to calculate the quantities of ingredients for the biga preferment. I then used the total dough weight for the biga preferment in the tool, using the Dough Weight option.

If you follow the exact methods described above to come up with the numbers, you shouldn't have a problem in the future.

Peter

Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 16, 2010, 12:58:53 PM
Peter,

Thank you for taking the time to figure this out for me. I just took the same numbers for the preferment you had figured out for me in reply #62. 
I will use the expanded dough calculating tool in the future.  I get confused to which dough calculating tool to use.  I used the Lehmann Pizza Dough Calculation Tool, as I did before. Thanks for telling me which one to use. 
I will copy and print out your instructions and see if I can get all this right the next time. 

I will make the preferment tomorrow and incorporate it into the dough Monday.

Thanks for having patience with my figuring all this out,

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: RoadPizza on January 16, 2010, 05:54:20 PM
Congratulations, Norma.
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 16, 2010, 10:17:10 PM
RoadPizza,

Thanks for the congrats!  :) Just one more picture of the Great Great Grandmother, my mother and Ashanti taken tonight.

Norma

Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 18, 2010, 04:59:36 PM
I mixed the preferment yesterday and today incorporated it into the Lehmann dough. 
When I mixed the preferment yesterday, I let it sit out for 2 hours before refrigerating.  The first picture is the preferment after I turned it over to look at it, today.  The top looked a little dry, but the bottom looked moist and had some bubbles.  I did let the preferment sit out at room temperature today for an hour, before incorporating into the final dough.  Since it is warmer here now, the final dough temperature of the Lehmann dough and preferment mixed in was 80 degrees F.  The final dough felt really soft today.  The second picture is after the dough was formed into a ball and coated with oil.
I donít think there will be any problems with this Lehmann dough and preferment, when I use it tomorrow.  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on January 18, 2010, 05:34:14 PM
I donít think there will be any problems with this Lehmann dough and preferment, when I use it tomorrow.  :)

Norma,

I think you are right on this one.

A biga with a hydration of only 50%, and yeast at 0.10%, and prefermented in the refrigerator to boot, isn't going to have a great deal of activity. The good news is that you have greater flexibility as to the timing of the use of the biga. It's possible, for example, that you might be able to preferment the biga in the refrigerator for say, two days, and then use it. Some experimentation might be needed to determine the best value of yeast in the final dough formulation and whether some sugar or diastatic malt might be helpful to insure adequate residual sugars at the time of baking to give you adequate crust coloration.

It will be interesting to see your results, especially the crust flavors and color.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 18, 2010, 05:47:05 PM
Peter,

Your ideas are interesting.  :)  I let the biga out yesterday to see if it would rise some, before refrigerating.  It did.  The biga temperature was 82 degrees F.  Last week, I just make the biga and then refrigerated it right away. 
With the higher hydration in the regular dough 62%, I could see a big difference in the final dough.  Don't know if letting the biga set out made a difference or not, but I wanted to get it started so it could ferment a little. 
The interesting thing will be the final taste of the crust.
If this doesn't give a better flavor or make much difference in the final crust, then I will go on to other ideas.  Yours sound good.

Thanks,
Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on January 18, 2010, 06:03:11 PM
Norma,

You should just try to be objective about your results. If the results don't meet your expectations, you should remain calm because there are other options. For example, you can try a sponge or even a poolish. They may give you more crust flavor than a biga because of their greater fermentation activity but they are more finicky and require closer management. Fortunately, all of the preferment types can be structured to preferment for a day or two before incorporating into the final mix. Some adjustments may be needed to fine tune things, but that is part of the process that you have to go through to get the results you are after. Ultimately, you and your customers will decide whether the extra effort is worth it.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 18, 2010, 09:22:30 PM


You should just try to be objective about your results. If the results don't meet your expectations, you should remain calm because there are other options.

Peter

Peter,

I try to be calm and objective, but my nature is to get excited about new ways to make pizza.  I know I am relatively new to making pizza and there are many things I don't know and will have to learn.  To understand all this and experiment will take a long while.  I will try to take it one step at a time and learn from the experience or other peoples experiences.  As I have seen on this forum there are so many ways to  go about achieving what you want in a pizza.  So many people on this forum have helped me so much.
When I think back to last April and my first attempts at ever making pizza, I have all these people on this forum to thank for helping me.    :)
You are right about seeing if the extra effort is worth it.  I just want my customers to be able to say they really enjoyed the pizza they had at Root's. 

Thanks,

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 19, 2010, 09:51:08 PM
The Lehmann dough with preferment was okay, today.  There were some small bubbles in 2 of the dough balls.  While the dough was very soft, when opening the dough balls, they seemed to have some weblike structure in them.  They were harder to open than the regular Lehmann dough, that I use each week.  The taste really didnít seem that much different in the crust.  I had several people taste them and they said they couldnít notice any difference from the regular dough. 
There were some more airy parts in the rim, but not too much difference than my regular dough. 
The last 3 pictures with the pepperoni were my regular Lehmann dough. 
When these pictures were taken, I forgot to turn of the flash.  The crust coloration was darker than these pictures appear.  I think the crust coloration was okay.
What I find most puzzling is the weblike structure when opening the dough and the bubbles on the two dough balls.  It seemed like the dough was beginning to overferment.  The one dough ball was left on the counter for 2 hours before opening the dough.  The second was left on the marble slab for 1 hour.  These pictures are the first and second pizzas that were made.  The third dough ball was left on the marble slab for 3 hours.  The fourth dough ball was used directly out of the deli case.  Finally the fifth dough ball was left on the marble slab for 1/2 hour. 
My conclusions on how much time the dough was left to warm up are:  The dough handled better directly out of the deli case.  The second best was for 1/2 hour warm up.  In relation to the other doughs I tried at longer fermentation times up to 8 days, this dough behaved almost the same way.

Norma
Norma,

I think you are right on this one.

A biga with a hydration of only 50%, and yeast at 0.10%, and prefermented in the refrigerator to boot, isn't going to have a great deal of activity. The good news is that you have greater flexibility as to the timing of the use of the biga. It's possible, for example, that you might be able to preferment the biga in the refrigerator for say, two days, and then use it. Some experimentation might be needed to determine the best value of yeast in the final dough formulation and whether some sugar or diastatic malt might be helpful to insure adequate residual sugars at the time of baking to give you adequate crust coloration.

It will be interesting to see your results, especially the crust flavors and color.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 19, 2010, 09:53:38 PM
rest of the pictures.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on January 20, 2010, 11:21:10 AM
Norma,

Setting aside the issue of crust flavor for the moment, it appears to me that the pizzas have a more artisan appearance, with a somewhat different and more developed crumb texture than usual. Also, the bottom crusts appear to be different in terms of coloration and spotting. Are my eyes deceiving me on this?

I think part of the handling problem may be attributed to the higher hydration of the total formula--62% versus 59%. The higher hydration dough will ferment faster, just because of the higher hydration and especially if accompanied by rest periods at room temperature. If you decide to continue experimenting with bigas, you could lower the hydration of the total formula, maybe even back to 59%. You might also skip the rest periods (other than tempering the dough before using) in the interest of simplifying the procedures.

With respect to the crust flavor issue, there are several other possibilities that can be explored while still staying within the biga universe. For example, you could preferment more of the total formula flour, or you could let the biga preferment for another day or two. A third possibility is to preferment the biga at room temperature instead of in the cooler or deli case. I think this last option would be likely to produce more byproducts of fermentation.

I see that you have posted your general results at the PMQTT. It will be interesting to see what Tom Lehmann recommends, especially in light of your comments about the webbing effect, and whether he will suggest some other form of preferment.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 20, 2010, 12:02:39 PM
Norma,

Setting aside the issue of crust flavor for the moment, it appears to me that the pizzas have a more artisan appearance, with a somewhat different and more developed crumb texture than usual. Also, the bottom crusts appear to be different in terms of coloration and spotting. Are my eyes deceiving me on this?

I think part of the handling problem may be attributed to the higher hydration of the total formula--62% versus 59%. The higher hydration dough will ferment faster, just because of the higher hydration and especially if accompanied by rest periods at room temperature. If you decide to continue experimenting with bigas, you could lower the hydration of the total formula, maybe even back to 59%. You might also skip the rest periods (other than tempering the dough before using) in the interest of simplifying the procedures.

With respect to the crust flavor issue, there are several other possibilities that can be explored while still staying within the biga universe. For example, you could preferment more of the total formula flour, or you could let the biga preferment for another day or two. A third possibility is to preferment the biga at room temperature instead of in the cooler or deli case. I think this last option would be likely to produce more byproducts of fermentation.

I see that you have posted your general results at the PMQTT. It will be interesting to see what Tom Lehmann recommends, especially in light of your comments about the webbing effect, and whether he will suggest some other form of preferment.

Peter



Peter,

Your eyes arenít deceiving you.  The pizza with the preferment did have a more artisan appearance and a slightly more developed crumb texture.  I should have taken a picture of the pizza with preferement in the oven and a picture of my normal Lehmann dough to compare.  There was also a small difference in coloration and spotting.  The preferment with the Lehmann dough and the regular Lehmann dough were both baked at 550 degrees F.

I think you are correct in the handling problem with higher 62% hydration and the rest periods that the preferment had.  As for going back to 59% hydration of the formula, I will have to think about that.  In reference to the tempering the dough when making the preference, I donít think I really needed to take the extra step. 

In your opinion, do you think there would be better results with more preferment of the total formula flour would give a better crust flavor?

I did post my results at PMQTT and if anyone is interested in seeing what I said, here is the link

http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=8419&start=15#p57258

I will wait and see if Tom Lehmann answers about any different recommendations.

The idea of using the biga and changing something, is a possibility.

Thanks for going over my post,

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on January 20, 2010, 03:38:05 PM
In your opinion, do you think there would be better results with more preferment of the total formula flour would give a better crust flavor?

Yes, I think you would get more crust flavor, but it is hard to say whether it would be a substantial increase in flavor. Thinking back, it is possible that the biga was in part responsible for the increased difficulty in opening up the dough balls. One of the effects of the biga is to strengthen the dough. Increasing the amount of biga might make the dough even harder to open up.

Given a choice, I think I would rather try preferementing the biga at room temperature, to get more byproducts of fermentation.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 21, 2010, 06:07:46 PM

Given a choice, I think I would rather try preferementing the biga at room temperature, to get more byproducts of fermentation.

Peter

Peter,
 
After reading the articles you referenced from Didier Rosada last week and reading how the biga is usually held at around 60 degrees F for about 18 hours, I am wondering how that can be accomplished? The temperature of my refrigerator is lower than 60 degrees F and the temperature at home is higher than 60 degrees F.  Didier Rosada stated a biga is also a good choice with high hydration doughs.

Since he referenced that the hydration of a biga is usually between 50-55 percent.  Last week the preferment was 50% hydration and I was already having problems with extensibility. Can you explain why you think this could work?  Another thing referenced in the article is with using a stronger flour, the baker must be careful to use the biga properly, or the added strength could penalize extensibility.
 
Eventually, if I would make and use the preferment at market, I would have problems with keeping the biga at the right temperature before incorporating into the final dough.

The main goal of a preferment is to bring some acidity to dough, stated by Didier Rosada.

I am procrastinating what to do next.  ::)

"Procrastination is the greatest laborsaving invention of all time."

Thanks,

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on January 21, 2010, 06:57:34 PM
Norma,

Before I respond more fully, can you remind me what room temperature(s) you would be using to make the biga and the final dough?

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 21, 2010, 07:53:20 PM
Norma,

Before I respond more fully, can you remind me what room temperature(s) you would be using to make the biga and the final dough?

Peter


Peter,

I am only experimenting with the idea of using a biga, so for right now, I am making the biga at home and then incorporating into the final dough at market to make 5 test dough balls.
The temperature at home is 72 degrees F.  The temperature at market can vary very much.  When I make the dough at market on Monday, it could range anywhere between 45 degrees F to 68 degrees F.  It all depends on what time of the year I make the dough.  In the summer the temperature could be be a big difference.
If I eventually do decide to use a biga for my dough, I can see problems with temperatures.
I am trying this method to see how much the crust taste can improve.

Thanks,

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on January 21, 2010, 10:55:45 PM
Norma,

If you were a professional artisan baker with the volume of production to justify it, you would perhaps have a temperature-controlled facility of some sort. Otherwise, you would be subjected to the many temperature changes throughout the year, which would translate into inconsistent results. For a small volume of dough for experimental purposes, you could use a unit such as the ThermoKool MR-138 or one of the newer successor units to maintain a fairly constant temperature over time but I am not sure whether that unit can handle the amount of biga you would need to make your regular 10-15 pound dough batches. The last batch of dough you made used a biga that represented almost 31.5% of the total dough weight. I'm not sure how much dough a MR-138 unit is capable of handling at one time.

Without some way of controlling temperatures of prefermention, you would have to make adjustments such as are used by Neapolitan pizza makers to compensate for usual seasonal temperature changes. However, your temperature changes appear to be very wide and somewhat unpredictable to boot. Trying to modify the biga formulation to track the ranges of temperatures you mentioned would be almost impossible, not to mention that the hydration and other aspects of the dough formulation would have to be adjusted too frequently. That would mean more math.

I am not sure what to suggest to you at this point beyond investigating another biga formulation or protocol or possibly a cold fermented version of some other type of preferment. You could perhaps adjust for the higher room temperature at home if you were to make the biga at home, but your home mixer might not be up to the task of making several pounds of dough with a 50% hydration.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 21, 2010, 11:37:07 PM
Peter,

I mixed part of the biga by hand at home, because I didnít think my hand mixer would be up to the task.  I donít have any other kind of mixer, just a food processor. 
I can understand how many variations there are involved in doing all the adjustments and also the math part, which I need much practice with. 
What kind of cold fermented preferment were you thinking about when you mentioned this?
If I would eventually use some kind of biga to be incorporated into my final dough, I wouldnít be allowed to make it at home.  This is just part of the experiment right now, to see if I could achieve a better crust flavor.  If I did eventually use the preferment, it would have to be made at market.
If you can think of anything else I could try or maybe even the beer idea Tom Lehmann talked about, let me know. 
I know all this is much harder in a commercial environment, when you are talking about different volumes each week and different temperatures.

Thanks,

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on January 22, 2010, 11:29:29 AM
I can understand how many variations there are involved in doing all the adjustments and also the math part, which I need much practice with. 
What kind of cold fermented preferment were you thinking about when you mentioned this?

Norma,

I was thinking about the cold poolish preferment that member Terry Deane and other members discussed starting at Reply 6 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9512.msg82374.html#msg82374, including the link to http://www.artisanbreadbaking.com/breads/poolish/poolish.htm. Terry also discussed a cold fermented poolish at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7401.msg63778.html#msg63778 and at Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7385.msg63694.html#msg63694.

I am sure that people who have to tie their preferments to their personal work schedules have come up with many variations of cold fermented poolish. A cold fermented poolish seems to me to be a better choice than using a cold fermented biga in the variable room temperature environment you described. Working at room temperature in your case would necessitate having some mechanism for controlling fermentation temperatures.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 22, 2010, 01:21:19 PM
Peter,

I have copied and pasted all the information and I will read over it.  I will post on what I might think about doing, when I have time to digest all that said on the threads you referenced.  I will then see if you think it would work in my commercial setting.

Thanks for supplying all the links,

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 25, 2010, 09:08:53 PM

Peter,

After reading the articles you referenced, I was wondering if you think using one of the starters I am now experimenting with, would be an idea to try?  Since these starters are now active and Toby has helped me understand more about starters, maybe this could be the next preferment to try. 

Thanks,

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on January 25, 2010, 09:24:57 PM
After reading the articles you referenced, I was wondering if you think using one of the starters I am now experimenting with, would be an idea to try?  Since these starters are now active and Toby has helped me understand more about starters, maybe this could be the next preferment to try. 

Norma,

Are you thinking about home use or at the market?

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 25, 2010, 09:31:19 PM
Peter,

I want to try it at market, to be incorporated into the Lehmann dough.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on January 25, 2010, 09:59:06 PM
I want to try it at market, to be incorporated into the Lehmann dough.

Norma,

Would you be required to keep the starters at market all of the time and, if so, how would you maintain the starters, feed them and otherwise manage them to produce consistent and uniform results in the highly variable temperature environment you described earlier, especially when you would only be making and selling pizzas one day a week?

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 25, 2010, 10:25:05 PM
Peter,

Yes, I would be required to make and keep them at market.  For right now to experiment with using a starter, I would just use a starter I have here at home and give samples to standholders to first see if a natural starter would work to improve the flavor of the crust.  There are many standholders and workers at market that purchase my pizza. I would let them know that I made the starter at home. They wouldn't mind if I used them as guinea pigs.  They have know me for years.  I still have a food approved shed here at home that we used to pop the popcorn and make candy in.  I also could use that to make the starter, here at home.
As for starting a natural starter at market and maintaining it, that might be able to be worked out.  I don't live that far from market and could go there until my starter is active and then refrigerate it, until needed.  I have a disc heater that I could use to warm up the starter, that was refrigerated. 
If you think this is not an option or would present too many problems, let me know.  Do you think the temperature would be too cool to activate the starter at market.

Thanks,

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 25, 2010, 11:16:00 PM
Peter,

Maybe another option would be a post that November posted about using a modified short (or quick) poolish.  I donít know where it is referenced here on the forum, but he used a modified poolish that consisted of a sweetener, 50% of the formula's flour, water, ADY, and sea salt.  Could this be a option for trying a preferment?  I think he used turbinado sugar to add nutrients.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on January 26, 2010, 10:57:39 AM
Yes, I would be required to make and keep them at market.  For right now to experiment with using a starter, I would just use a starter I have here at home and give samples to standholders to first see if a natural starter would work to improve the flavor of the crust.  There are many standholders and workers at market that purchase my pizza. I would let them know that I made the starter at home. They wouldn't mind if I used them as guinea pigs.  They have know me for years.  I still have a food approved shed here at home that we used to pop the popcorn and make candy in.  I also could use that to make the starter, here at home.
As for starting a natural starter at market and maintaining it, that might be able to be worked out.  I don't live that far from market and could go there until my starter is active and then refrigerate it, until needed.  I have a disc heater that I could use to warm up the starter, that was refrigerated. 
If you think this is not an option or would present too many problems, let me know.  Do you think the temperature would be too cool to activate the starter at market.

Norma,

As I see it, the biggest issue is one of logistics, especially trying to adapt a natural preferment version of the Lehmann dough formulation to the somewhat unpredictable temperature environment of the market where you would be making your doughs. As we previously learned, the widely varying ambient temperatures of the market where you have been making your pizzas pretty much ruled out a room-temperature fermented biga and, most likely, any other preferment, natural or otherwise, that would rely on prefermentation at room temperature. In a way, that is a shame because I believe that natural preferments work better at room temperatures than in typical cold fermentation applications of a day or a few days and, as a result, yield more complex crust flavors and textures. I discovered this in one of my early natural preferment versions of the Lehmann dough formulation, which I described at Reply 151 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg11774.html#msg11774. These days, I would use the preferment dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/preferment_calculator.html to come up with a better and more accurate set of numbers. Back then, I was in the preferment learning stage and knew a lot less than what I believe I now know (I have also learned more about autolyse).

But, even if a spruced up version of the dough formulation described in Reply 151 might apply to your situation today, you are still left with the need to make and manage a quantity of natural preferment for a commercial batch of dough. I looked at some of the early Lehmann dough formulations you posted and that I believe you were using and it seems to me that you don't need a very large quantity of natural preferment to make your doughs. However, you would perhaps need a unit like the ThermoKool MR-132, or something equivalent, to control the temperature of the natural preferment. I don't think you can manage a natural preferment in a widely varying room temperature environment and get consistent, reproducible results, although you will be able to use your deli case to store the starter culture between feedings. But, even with a temperature controlled unit or facillity of some sort, you will still have to determine how to manage the natural starter culture and preferment for use in making pizzas only one day a week. If you have several starters and are feeding them regularly, I think that you will discover that you can go through a lot of flour just feeding and maintaining the starters. If you were a baker or artisan pizza maker making doughs throughout the work week, you would be using most of that flour to make dough.

You might take a look at what I discussed in Reply 151 referenced above to see if it is a possible candidate for what you would like to do. For additional insights and ideas, you might also look at what Jeff Varasano did with his Patsy's New York style clone at http://slice.seriouseats.com/jvpizza/. My recollection is that Jeff originally used about 40% natural preferment as a percentage of the total formula flour but later significantly reduced it to around 9%. Jeff also used a small amount (0.25%) of IDY. I found that using a combination of natural preferment and commercial yeast resulted in less crust flavor but perhaps helped with oven spring. You might also look at Terry Deane's work with natural preferments (supplemented with 0.15% IDY) starting at Reply 25 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7561.msg65261.html#msg65261. I don't recall whether Terry went to using only a natural preferment, as he indicated he planned to do, but I am sure that he would have been able to accomplish making a dough leavened only with wild yeast. No doubt, there are other members who have worked with natural starters/preferments for cold fermentation applications and might be able to offer some advice to you for your particular situation.

If you end up using the preferment dough calculating tool, you will perhaps want to know that you will have to specify the percentage of water used in your natural preferment. That is a function of how much flour and water you use, by weight, in your regular feedings of your starter culture. If that number is not quite accurate, you may find that you have to adjust the water and/or flour in the final mix to get the proper finished dough condition.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on January 26, 2010, 11:22:21 AM
Maybe another option would be a post that November posted about using a modified short (or quick) poolish.  I donít know where it is referenced here on the forum, but he used a modified poolish that consisted of a sweetener, 50% of the formula's flour, water, ADY, and sea salt.  Could this be a option for trying a preferment?  I think he used turbinado sugar to add nutrients.

Norma,

I don't recall whether November posted the entire formula and methodology, but I believe what you have in mind is a series of three posts starting at Reply 13 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5741.msg55480.html#msg55480. I also know from Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6520.msg55904/topicseen.html#msg55904 that November uses a higher hydration for his modified poolish, although I don't recall whether he has specified the precise hydration figure.

It is possible to use something along the lines discussed by November, but you will still be confronted by a varying room temperature environment that can pose challenges to prefermenting the modified poolish as mentioned by November. You would perhaps need to use a temperature-controlled unit like the MR-138 or else try to adjust the modified poolish to compensate for the changing room temperature environment. This can be done by varying the amount of yeast used in the modified poolish, possibly varying the hydration and amount of salt, varying the temperature of the water used to make the modified poolish, or some combination of these adjustments. These are the kinds of measures that the pizzaioli in Naples use to make their doughs in a room temperature environment that changes with the seasons. It can take years to master these methods to produce doughs with consistent results and within the business hours of the pizza operator. In your case, you would be talking only a few hours, which should simplify matters, but the principles are the same. You would have to run a few tests to see if a short modified poolish method produces the enhanced crust flavor profile you are trying to achieve.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 26, 2010, 09:52:44 PM
Peter,

I donít think I want to purchase the ThermoKool MR-132 unit.  I can see how the different ambient temperatures can affect anything I might want to try.  I will read over all the referenced posts you have given. 

Thanks for taking the time and  giving me all the links and information,

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on January 26, 2010, 10:04:37 PM
Norma,

I saw an interesting poolish method today for a ciabatta dough, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10123.msg88451/topicseen.html#msg88451, but I think the poolish part, or a modified version of it, can also be used for a pizza dough, even one based on the Lehmann dough recipe. I would have to do some data conversions to get a better idea as to what the recipe is all about, but the poolish part might be worth considering. What I would be looking for in the data is whether there would be a need to add some diastatic malt or sugar in some form to be sure that the crust ends up with enough color.

I won't proceed unless you are interested.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 26, 2010, 10:26:08 PM
Peter,

Yes, I am interested in trying the poolish, since it can be stored for 3 days in the refrigerator (deli case). For a warm-up time of one hour, that also might work in trying the poolish.

I wouldnít mind if I had to use some form of sugar or diastatic malt to make sure the crust ends up with enough color. I have noticed since using KASL there are more problems with getting the desired crust color, but have adjusted my oven a little higher to get a better crust color. 

If you want to take the time to see what conversions are needed, I would like to try this to see if a better crust flavor can be achieved.

This is a picture of the pizza made today using the KASL flour without preferment.

Thanks,

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Bob1 on January 26, 2010, 10:51:16 PM
Pete,
Norma,

We just hit full circle.  My reply #11 on this thread is close to Critter's formula.  I was using it for bread and just scarfed a dough ball off of it for pizza.  Mine was a preferment but I used it with beer yeast which is the same as commercial yeast but a less vigorous strain. It was a few days old and was able to stay at room temp because of the slow acting yeast.  I relied on regular yeast for my rise on the final dough.  It can be done with regular yeast at a cooler temp over night with the same effect.  In regards to being pale please look at the pic above reply #11 it shows great color, so you should be fine, even with the Lehman.  The first pic with the baked ciabatta background has the white unbaked pie, and the baked pie is below it.  After reading the logistics issues and considering the fact that a natural starter may be too tough, I would just add 2 to 2.5% Eden non diastolic malt to the original Lehman and be done with it. 

Thanks,

Bob1
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 26, 2010, 11:09:11 PM
Bob1,

I can understand how using the Eden non diastolic malt could give better crust color.  That is something I might be interested in trying. 
I am still concerned about using a preferment and the different ambient temperatures that are always at market. 
I will think over what you are explaining.

Thanks,

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Matthew on January 27, 2010, 05:28:03 AM
Bob1,

I can understand how using the Eden non diastolic malt could give better crust color.  That is something I might be interested in trying. 
I am still concerned about using a preferment and the different ambient temperatures that are always at market. 
I will think over what you are explaining.

Thanks,

Norma

Hi Norma,
I agree with Bob.  Eden organic malt extract is now a standard ingredient in all my home oven pizza formulas. 

Matt
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 27, 2010, 06:16:37 AM
Matt,

Thanks for telling me you also use the Eden organic malt extract.  :)  Bob1 explained to me at Warren's Bread Making Demo he uses the liquid version, (like molasses) in his formula's.  Since if haven't used any kind of malt extract, I will have to study what the different kinds of diastolic malt can do for crust coloration.  You both already have the knowledge with using Eden organic malt extract.

Thanks,

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Bob1 on January 27, 2010, 07:20:50 AM
Norma,
I think a lot of pizza places add a little bit of sugar to get color.  Here is some detail from http://www.correllconcepts.com/Encyclopizza/04_Dough_ingredients/04_dough_ingredients.htm#_Toc533730325

"Effects of Sugar
First, because itís food for yeast, sugar alters the rate of fermentation. Up to 5 percent sugar speeds up fermentation. Over 5 percent begins to slow it down, however.

Second, it increases crust browning. This could allow a pizzeria to have a shorter bake time or a lower oven temperature. However, keep in mind that bake time must be long enough to insure full internal doneness, especially of that part of dough which contacts the sauce.


Third, it enhances flavor and aroma.

Fourth, white sugar produces a softer, whiter internal texture or crumb. This occurs because sugar delays the coagula≠tion of gluten and gelatinization of starch during bakingóin effect, causing the crumb to be ďless bakedĒ which, in turn, makes it more tender.

Fifth, it increases a productís shelf life by increasing its moisture retention. For pizzas that are eaten immedi≠ately, thatís of little concern.

In conclusion, each of the above conditions can be either an advantage or a draw≠back depending on what you want in your dough and crust."

The nice thing about malt is that it adds a nice flavor.  It's not truly "artisan" but it works great.  You should try experimenting with other  additives also.  Powdered milk is unigue and adds a darkening of the crust.  You may find that a combination of both can give you a truly signature pie.  In regards to non diastolic and diastolic malt, you are all ready using malted flour with the KASL and you only need to use non diastolic.  In fact, you would probably be hard pressed to get  diastolic malt in small quantity. 



Thanks,

Bob1

Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 27, 2010, 07:50:53 AM
Bob1,

I already tried using sugar in the Lehmann dough in some of my earlier posts.  I found they weren't necessary using a one day fermentation. By experimenting with sugar before, I found it didn't add to the taste of the crust, either.  I was using Pillsbury Balancer at the time when I added sugar.  I then moved to All Trumps, Kyrol and now KASL. 
I don't know if I try a new kind of preferment if I will have to add some kind of sugar, non diastolic, diastolic malt, or powdered milk.  Only time will tell.   ::)

Thanks,

Norma


Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 27, 2010, 07:51:26 AM
This is what I am reading about using diastolic malt.

There are two types of malt powder available. Diastolic malt powder is allowed to develop enzymes, which digest starches into sugar. When diastolic malt is used in baked goods, it tends to result in sweeter, smoother, and higher rises.

Much more common is non-diastatic malt. This does not have enzymes but it can still impart wonderful flavor, and lovely appearance to baked goods. Non-diastatic malt is common in malted milk powder. 
      
In total, there isnít much nutritional value to malt powder. About one and half teaspoons (4 grams) have approximately 15 calories. This is comparable to sugar, which has about 16 calories per teaspoon. It is fat free, but isnít rich in vitamins. Mostly, it functions to provide extra flavoring in foods, and with diastatic malt, to help conserve yeast and rise bread. Malt affects appearance and may be desired for its ability to give nice brown crusts to bread or to cause bagels and biscuits to shine.

Here are some links about using diastolic malt:

http://www.dryit.com/diastaticmalt.html

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/4276/interview-peter-reinhart

http://www.bread-bakers.com/archives/digests/v099n037.txt

http://www.bread-bakers.com/archives/digests/v099n062.txt

http://forums.chef2chef.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=550632

If you type in your browser dry diastolic malt versus wet, you will see this article on baking. It is about using diastolic malt.  You can then search, and read this article.  By using Google search, this article is on the second page.  Just click on it and then it can be read.

The student's technology of breadmaking and flour confectionery - Google Books Result
by Wilfred James Fance - 1966 - Cooking - 443 pages
Dry malt extract finds much favour with the baker because it is much easier ... Diastolic Paste. ó This is a cold water malt extract manufactured in a ...
books.google.com/books?isbn=0710090463...

I will study more about using diastolic malt.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Bob1 on January 27, 2010, 08:04:27 AM
Norma,
I am confused.  On your first reply you talked about adding sugar and that was not the true point.  Sugar can be added in many ways, sugar, honey, malt extract, etc.  All sugars react a little different based on there complexity.  So you really can not compare the sugar that you added earlier to the malt.  The malt adds flavor along with the burning sugar causing coloring of the crust.
On the second post you referred to some links about diastolic malt.  The KASL is all ready malted and if you were to add it to the lehman dough you would be changing things a whole lot.

Thanks,

Bob1   
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 27, 2010, 08:22:41 AM
Bob1,

Sorry,  if I am making you confused.  The only reason I mentioned using the regular sugar, was that I had tried using sugar.  I know there are many kinds or ways of adding other ingredients that can add flavor.  I know there is no comparison with using sugar and other ingredients. 
To try and clear up about using the KASL.  When I was using bromated flours, I didnít have any problems with browning the crust.  I wanted to use KASL to get away from bromated flours.  If I had the choice, I would still be using All Trumps.  I just donít want to put my customers at risk, if for some reason I would have a gum line and all the bromates wouldnít be baked out.  I also donít want to inhale the bromated flour. 
If I do decide to use another preferment, then I will see if the preferment and KASL need other ingredients to brown the crust.

As for the links, I am not familiar with using other types of ingredients to brown the crust.  Maybe these links will also help other people understand more about using ingredients other than sugar to help get a desired crust color. 

I donít know if this helped or not, but I am just trying to explain why I am using this flour and might see a problem with crust browning if using another preferment. 


Thanks,

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on January 27, 2010, 10:53:11 AM
First of all, I think you all mean to say "diastatic" and "nondiastatic" rather than "diastolic" or "nondiastolic". Unless, of course, you are trying to elevate each other's blood pressure :-D.

I think it is important to distinguish between a dough made by the direct method as opposed to one made from an indirect method. For a dough made using the direct method, and assuming that the flour is malted, I would have no real concerns about the residual sugar levels after a day or a few days of cold fermentation. Beyond that, I could use sugar in many of its forms, including nondiastatic barley malt syrup. In such a case, I might lean to a dry form of the barley malt because it might be easier for Norma to work with and use in the low temperature environment of the market (sometimes in the mid 40 degrees F) where she would prepare the dough. Also, I have discovered that the liquid barley malt can darken the color of the crumb as well as the outer crust. And it doesn't take a lot of barley malt syrup to produce that darker crumb color. For example, a few years ago, I made a clone of a Sbarro's NY style pizza using only 2.2% barley malt syrup. Yet, I could see the effects of the barley malt syrup on the color of the crumb. You can see what I mean from Reply 56 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2061.msg40413.html#msg40413. I experienced the same crumb darkening when I made JerryMac's NY style dough formulation using barley malt syrup. In that case, the barley malt syrup was over 5%, so its effect on crumb coloration was more in evidence. This said, I do not have any problem with anyone using any form of sugar so long as it gets the job done. If Norma and her customers like a darker crumb, then that can be achieved by using barley malt syrup.

My concern with sugar and residual sugar levels is with respect to doughs made using the indirect method, as by using a preferment. Among the different forms of preferment, my concern is greater for a poolish or sponge than say, a stiffer preferment such as a biga or old dough. Liquidy preferments like poolish can be very hard on sugar and deplete it fairly quickly, and especially if the amount of flour devoted to the poolish is a large percent of the total flour. The use of diastatic malt is to make more enzymes available to extract more natural sugars from the damaged starch. The diastatic malt is typically added as part of the final mix. Didier Rosada discusses this issue at http://web.archive.org/web/20050829015510/www.cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food4_dec2004.htm, with particular reference to the following:

When flour and water get incorporated together, enzyme activity starts. Some enzymes generate sugar degradation (amylase), while others provoke protein degradation (protease). 

During the pre-fermentation time, the yeast uses up a lot of the flourís sugar, especially during long fermentation time at room temperature. When this portion of flour is added back to the final dough, the overall quantity of fermentiscibles sugar is lower than what is usually available for the yeast in a straight dough method. As a result of the lower availability of sugar, it is difficult to obtain satisfactory coloration of the crust. This defect is sometimes noticeable when a high percentage of overnight poolish or sponge is used in the final dough or when the enzyme activity of the flour is on the low side. To troubleshoot this problem, 0.5% to 1% of diastatic malt (based on the total flour) can be added to the final dough.

Preferments like poolish or sponge, sometimes generate lower levels of fermentescible sugars available at the end of the pre-fermentation time. In certain cases, this can be used to our advantage. A higher quantity of preferment should be added to the final dough when working with a high level of enzyme in the flour (low falling number). By increasing the quantity of preferment, we increase the portion of the flour with less sugar available to the yeast.  In doing so we reduce a lot the fermentation activity and the reddish crust color that is usually obtained when too many enzymes are present in the flour.

More liquid preferments like poolish, because of their liquid consistency, favor enzyme activity. Amylase, but also protease, will be more active during the pre-fermentation. As a result, higher extensibility in the final dough is obtained, reducing the mixing time of the final dough and preserving it from potential over oxidation. A better extensibility is also noticeable at the shaping stage. Higher volume and more open inside are also achieved in the final product.


Until Norma actually uses a poolish or modified-poolish to make a dough, we won't know for sure what she will need. I suggested that diastatic malt might be a solution to the color problem if it becomes an issue, but it could well be that using a standard form of sugar, or possibly a combination of such a sugar and diastatic malt, could be solutions to the problem.

BTW, diastatic malt is available from different sources, including Bob's Red Mill, as shown at http://www.bobsredmill.com/malted-barley-flour.html. It is also available from Barry Farm, http://www.barryfarm.com/images/product/sugars/diastaticmalt.JPG.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Bob1 on January 27, 2010, 12:25:48 PM
Pete,
I was only talking about using the non diastatic in the standard formula that Norma uses now for taste and ease of process.  If her pie is good now then the malt would add flavor and there is no need to use diastatic and mess with the chemistry.   I think there might be a misunderstanding.  I have tried a poolish close to what critter used in variations with two different yeasts.   One variation I did is posted earlier on reply #11.  It is not a direct comparison to a Lehman dough but I assumed because of the high hydration of both the poolish and the final dough it was good for speculation.  Considering the higher enzyme activity with the KASL my pie still had good color.  I also did a few variations with the KASL and they browned well also.  So if I was a betting man I would say that the KASL would hold up and no malt either diastaic or nondiastatic would be required, but like you say it will have to be determined if or when she tries it.  Not really worth a discusion on my part.  I am just trying to talk to her about the barley malt in the regular Lehman formula, which I have tried before.  In the past I have also tested 10% to 20% rye or wheat flour with the KASL and 1 to 2% milk powder with the 2 to 2.5% barley malt with great results.   Depending on the cook time with the later you can get great flavor.  If you get bubble in the crust, the toasted dough does wonders to step it up.  Pete I am just trying to help and open things up for discussion.  I feel that when the logistics are this tough (Health board, Environment, One day a week etc) it's time to cheat the Artisan factor and just make it work.  It's Normas call in the end, I am just trying to nudge her the easiest direction, or to just try a test batch.  I really think the shortcut will surprise her.


Thanks,

Bob1
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on January 27, 2010, 01:23:25 PM
Bob1,

I was simply trying to shift gears from bigas and natural preferments to a poolish preferment since using a preferment with the Lehmann dough formulation was the predicate of this thread. Norma should by all means consider using nondiastatic malted products in the Lehmann dough formulation as you propose should she see merit in doing so, whether it is because of greater crust color or better crust flavor. However, in such a case, she might want to start a new thread so that we don't send this thread into an entirely different direction.

There have been several members who have used a nondiastatic malt products for pizza dough going back several years when pftaylor first discussed his use of the malted powder in his grandmother's dough recipe. Since then, we have had members use standard nondiastatic malt products, including the Carnation Original Malted Milk powder (which is in the ingredients list for the expanded dough calculating tool) and the Ovaltine Classic powder, both of which include a nondiastatic malt product (and a bunch of other things).

I will await guidance from Norma before proceeding further. She might also want to revisit Villa Roma's dough formulation at Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg86108.html#msg86108. That dough formulation may not fit Norma's market conditions but it is a proven recipe. I haven't looked at relating that recipe to the Lehmann recipe but it something that might be considered at some point.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Bob1 on January 27, 2010, 02:13:15 PM
You guys have to understand, I have been off track my whole life.  It's part of my infinite charm and grace.

Thanks,

Bob1
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 27, 2010, 05:10:39 PM
Peter and Bob1,

I appreciate both of you trying to help me with my learning curve in both my preferment and coloring of the crust.  Lol, Bob, I just met you Saturday and you do have charm and grace.  :)

I still would be interested in trying Reply #131 and Reply #132 on this thread to see if the poolish or modified verison of this could add to the crust flavor. 

Thanks,

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on January 27, 2010, 06:06:00 PM
Norma,

It will take a fair amount of math and major reconstructive surgery on the recipe at Reply 7 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10123.msg88451/topicseen.html#msg88451 to come up with a proposed dough formulation for you to try out, but in the meantime can you tell me roughly what temperature you would normally be expected to encounter at the market where you would be making the (modified) poolish and the final dough, or would you be planning to make the modified poolish at home for the time being and complete the final mix at market? Also, do you have any diastatic malt on hand? Although I think some may be needed, I haven't reached a conclusion on this at this juncture. We might also decide not to use any diastatic malt and await the results before deciding on what to do next.

At this point I am contemplating a Lehmann dough with a hydration similar to what you have been using and a modified poolish that would spend three days in the refrigerator/deli case after its initial prefermentation. Would that represent a workable timetable? I would expect that the final dough from which you would make the individual dough balls (a total of five) would be kept in your deli case for about a day before using. For planning purposes, is it on Monday or Tuesday that you actually bake the pizzas?

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 27, 2010, 08:18:43 PM
Norma,

It will take a fair amount of math and major reconstructive surgery on the recipe at Reply 7 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10123.msg88451/topicseen.html#msg88451 to come up with a proposed dough formulation for you to try out, but in the meantime can you tell me roughly what temperature you would normally be expected to encounter at the market where you would be making the (modified) poolish and the final dough, or would you be planning to make the modified poolish at home for the time being and complete the final mix at market? Also, do you have any diastatic malt on hand? Although I think some may be needed, I haven't reached a conclusion on this at this juncture. We might also decide not to use any diastatic malt and await the results before deciding on what to do next.

At this point I am contemplating a Lehmann dough with a hydration similar to what you have been using and a modified poolish that would spend three days in the refrigerator/deli case after its initial prefermentation. Would that represent a workable timetable? I would expect that the final dough from which you would make the individual dough balls (a total of five) would be kept in your deli case for about a day before using. For planning purposes, is it on Monday or Tuesday that you actually bake the pizzas?

Peter


Peter,

I can only imagine how much math and major reconstructive surgery might be needed to come up with a proposed dough formulation.

I would be making the poolish at market on Friday. I usually clean the oven and do other things either Thursday or Friday.  The ambient temperature can vary, like I told you before.  This past Monday, the weather was warm and the temperature at market was 58 degrees F.  We are supposed to be having a cold front come though, probably by tomorrow.  I havenít looked at the weather for Friday, next Monday or Tuesday.  The weather men arenít always predictable.  If I had to guess the temperature would be around 48 degrees F to 53 degrees F.  I do have a disc heater at market and could turn that on, so the poolish could be warmer.
No, I donít have any diastatic malt on hand.  If needed in the future, I can purchase some.
The Lehmann dough, similar hydration and modified poolish are all workable for me.  I would then incorporate the modified poolish into the dough on Monday.  The dough would then cold ferment until Tuesday, when I would use the dough to make the pizzas. 

Thanks for taking the time to go over all of this,

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on January 28, 2010, 08:42:24 PM
Norma,

It did take some extra math and calculations but I have presented below a test dough formulation for you to try. It is based on using a classic poolish with 100% hydration but at the maximum of the total formula water, which for a classic poolish is about 80% of the total formula water. That is less than the ciabatta dough recipe, which is considerably above 100% of the total formula water, but I think it might be preferable at this point to go with about 80% for benchmark purposes and to make adjustments to that benchmark based on your results. As a percent of total dough weight, the poolish comes to about 30%. I also increased the amount of yeast to use in the poolish because of the likely cool temperature at market. I also suggest that you use much warmer water temperature, about 120 degrees F, in preparing the poolish. The added yeast should provide more fermentation activity and the warmer water should speed up the fermentation process. If you think that using your disk heater is a better option for keeping the poolish warm as it preferments, then I would use water at around room temperature. You should follow the poolish preparation and warm-up instructions given in Reply 7 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10123.msg88451/topicseen.html#msg88451.

For the basic Lehmann dough formulation, I decided on a hydration of 61%. It is quite possible that the poolish will add significant strength to the final dough because of the acidity levels so I want to compensate for that possibility by increasing the hydration slightly so as not to penalize extensibility. As you will see below, the IDY in the total dough formulation is apportioned between the poolish and the final mix.

In the interest of time in case you decide to start the experiment tomorrow, in what I have presented below I did not show all of the math to convert the basic Lehmann dough formulation to the poolish and final mix parts of the total formula. I don't see any need for you to try to replicate my math at this point but that is up to you. I also left in many of the baker's percents to allow you to use the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html to recreate my numbers if you would like.

You will note that I did not recommend any sugar or diastatic malt for the dough formulation. If the crust flavors meet your requirements but the crusts are too light in color, which I think is a possibility because of fairly extensive poolish fermentation activity and the extended total fermentation time, we can address the crust color problem in a future experiment should you wish to proceed to the next level. 

Here is the total profile:

Total Lehmann NY Style Dough Formulation
King Arthur Sir Lancelot Flour (100%):
Water (61%):
IDY (0.40%):
Salt (1.75%):
Olive Oil (1%):
Total (164.15%):
Single Ball:
1550.82 g  |  54.7 oz | 3.42 lbs
946 g  |  33.37 oz | 2.09 lbs
6.2 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 2.06 tsp | 0.69 tbsp
27.14 g | 0.96 oz | 0.06 lbs | 4.86 tsp | 1.62 tbsp
15.51 g | 0.55 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.45 tsp | 1.15 tbsp
2545.67 g | 89.79 oz | 5.61 lbs | TF = 0.08932
509.13 g | 17.96 oz | 1.12 lbs
Note: Nominal thickness factor = 0.088; for five dough balls for five 16" pizzas; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

Preferment (Poolish)
King Arthur Sir Lancelot Flour (100%):
Water (100%):
IDY (0.30%):
Total (200.3%):
378.31 g  |  13.34 oz | 0.83 lbs
378.31 g  |  13.34 oz | 0.83 lbs
1.13 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.38 tsp | 0.13 tbsp
757.75 g | 26.73 oz | 1.67 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: Poolish represents about 80% of the Total Formula Water and about 30% of the total dough weight.

Final Mix
 Poolish (from above):                                                        757.75 g | 26.73 oz | 1.67 lbs
Remaining Total Formula King Arthur Sir Lancelot Flour (100%):
Remaining Total Formula Water (48.4166%):
Remaining Total Formula IDY (0.4324%):
Total Formula Salt (2.31470%):
Total Formula Olive Oil (1.3228%):
1172.51 g  |  41.36 oz | 2.58 lbs
567.69 g  |  20.02 oz | 1.25 lbs
5.07 g | 0.18 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.68 tsp | 0.56 tbsp
27.14 g | 0.96 oz | 0.06 lbs | 4.86 tsp | 1.62 tbsp
15.51 g | 0.55 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.45 tsp | 1.15 tbsp
Total Dough Batch Weight:                                                 2545.67 g | 89.79 oz | 5.61 lbs

I think the above numbers will work but since I have never tried the dough formulation you may want to note any problem areas. You might also find it necessary to tweak the flour and/or water in the mixer bowl to achieve a final dough condition that is like what you achieve when you make your regular Lehmann dough.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 28, 2010, 09:16:22 PM
Peter,

Thank you so much for going though all the math in figuring out the poolish, Lehmann dough, and final dough for me to try another preferment.  I will print out you instructions and formulaís,
I will also print out the instructions for the poolish.
I sure trust you math, but not mine. 
I did note you didnít suggest to use any sugar or diastatic malt for the dough formulation.  This can be a starting point and if more coloration is needed, I will then in future experiments proceed with either sugar or diastatic malt. .
I will take temperatures of the room temperature, flour, water and finished poolish.  It is supposed to be single digit numbers here tonight temperature wise.  I am sure market will be really cool tomorrow.  I think I will first go with the idea of heating the water to 120 degrees F.  I will also turn on the disk heater, but not have it directly on the poolish.
I was at market today to do cleaning, but need to go again tomorrow to program my cash register.  I have items I no longer sell or have changed prices on certain items. 
I will note any problem areas.  If needed on Monday, I will weigh any extra flour or water that might be needed to achieve the characteristics of my regular Lehmann dough and take note of that, also.
I think this will be another good step in determining if this new preferment will give better flavor to the crust. 
I will mix the poolish in a food safe container with either a spatula or spoon.

Thanks,

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 29, 2010, 04:21:34 PM
For anyone that is following this thread, you can see what Tom Lehmann replied to my last post.

http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=8419&start=15#p57716

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 29, 2010, 05:03:28 PM
I mixed the poolish today.  The room temperature at market was 47 degrees F, flour temperature was 47 degrees F.  Water temperature heated to 122 degrees F.  I weighed out the ingredients and then mixed with a whisk.  Since it was so cool, I decided to place the disk heater near the container with the poolish.  I waited 40 minutes and wanted to look how the poolish was doing.  There were small bubbles forming.  I then decided to get a stainless steel bowl and put the poolish container with the poolish inside the bowl.  I thought maybe the heat from the disk heater would somehow get the poolish warmer in the stainless steel bow..  I checked on the poolish several times over the span of 3 hours.  Although a few more bubbles were forming, it didnít look like it had developed any more significant bubbles.  I then decided to just put the poolish in the deli case.  The temperature of the disk heater reached 57 degrees F, but the room temperature didnít rise much.

I donít know if I left the poolish out long enough, but since waiting more than 2 hours since the poolish started to bubble and not many more significant bubbles were forming, is the reason I just put the poolish in the deli case.  The temperature of the deli case was 35 degrees F.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on January 29, 2010, 05:28:08 PM
Norma,

Under normal room temperature conditions, you should have gotten more bubbling. This may be one of those cases where having an inexpensive Styrofoam proofing box would be a big help, at least for the duration of your tests to determine whether using a poolish has value in the Lehmann dough. There should be further fermentation byproducts while the poolish is in the deli case but it remains to be seen if they are sufficient to produce a noticeable improvement in the crust flavors.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Essen1 on January 29, 2010, 05:41:32 PM
Norma,

Don't want to hijack your thread but I have a quick question about your scale...

How's the scale working for you? And what features come with it? I'm considering perhaps purchasing the same one from here:

http://www.webstaurantstore.com/tor-rey-pzc-5-10-pound-digital-pizza-controller-portion-scale-with-foot-tare-pedal/166PZC510.html
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 29, 2010, 05:49:51 PM
Mike,

I bought exactly the same scale at the same place.  You aren't highjacking my thread.  If anyone has questions, that is fine with me.  I find the scale works great for me in weighing larger quantities.  I had to use my smaller scale today to weigh out the IDY. 
I am satisfied with the scale.  I didn't want to purchase a much higher price scale since I was just starting out at the market stand. 

Norma

Peter,

I thought after the poolish started to bubble after 40 minutes it would continue, but it didn't do much after that.

I do have all the things for making an inexpensive proofing box in my shed.  I just never got around to building it.  If the dough doesn't work out this week, I will put it together.

Thanks,

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Essen1 on January 29, 2010, 06:03:21 PM
Norma,

Thanks for the info. I appreciate it.
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 29, 2010, 06:05:26 PM
Mike,

You're more than welcome.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 30, 2010, 11:14:08 AM
For anyone that is following this thread, I believe I made a mistake in measuring the ingredients for the poolish, yesterday. 
After thinking about the poolish yesterday, I think I was too busy trying to remember and follow the instructions on deleting and adding items to my cash register and also trying to do too many things at once., while trying to mix the poolish.
I decided to read the instructions over again and try to duplicate the poolish at home today.  I have mixed the poolish and will see how well it does here at home.  The temperature of the flour and room temperature at home is 72 degrees F.  I also used a water temperature of 72 degrees F. 
Since I mixed the poolish today, I am sure I didnít follow the directions.  I think what I might have done is added the water at the total weigh of the whole poolish.  Today the poolish is much thicker. 
Will post another picture of the poolish today, if this one bubbles more.
I want to give this new preferment a chance of succeeding.
Guess the mind canít do too many things at once.  :-\

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 30, 2010, 02:59:56 PM
Well..I think my intuitions were correct.  The poolish is nice and bubbly after almost 3 hours.  After reviewing what I could have done wrong, I am almost positive that I added 757.75 g water to the poolish instead of 378.31g.  When mixing the poolish at market did read the batter should be like a thick pancake batter.  I know how a pancake batter is supposed to be, but didnít associate the thinner batter to what was wrong.  Another standholder was at market and we were talking and I also was doing other things.  So much for trying to do multiple things at a time.  Guess the brain is getting to old to do that.  :-D
At least I wouldnít think it was the preferments fault that this dough wouldnít turn out okay.
Maybe the poolish would have even done better in the cooler environment.  Only time will tell.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on February 01, 2010, 09:10:14 AM
If anyone wants to see what Tom Lehmann replied to me on the current questions I was asking you can see what he had to say on this link.

http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=8419&start=15#p57791

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on February 01, 2010, 05:02:25 PM
The poolish that was made Saturday was incorporated into the dough.  The poolish seemed to be doing well.  The dough was a little higher hydration than I am using now, but was easy to form into balls. 

Since I canít stand to see anything go to waste, I also used the poolish that was made Friday.  Since there was too much water added to that poolish, I had to add extra flour after first trying to mix the dough.  I then added 0.83 lbs. of extra flour and continued to mix.  The dough turned out okay.  It was a little more sticky than the first final dough, but was still easy to ball.  The poolish seemed to bubble more since it was fermenting in the deli case since Friday.

The temperature at market was still cool today at 48 degrees F.  The final dough temperature of the first dough was 78 degrees F.  The second final dough with the poolish was 79 degrees F. 

The pictures are first the poolish that was made Saturday and then incorporated into the final dough, today..  The second set of pictures are the poolish that was made Friday and then incorporated into the final dough, today.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on February 01, 2010, 06:05:48 PM
Norma,

With respect to the very liquid poolish (modified poolish), did you add that modified poolish to the rest of the ingredients mentioned in the Final Mix at Reply 149 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg88687.html#msg88687 plus 0.83 pounds (376.49 grams) of extra KABF?

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on February 01, 2010, 06:18:57 PM
Norma,

With respect to the very liquid poolish (modified poolish), did you add that modified poolish to the rest of the ingredients mentioned in the Final Mix at Reply 149 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg88687.html#msg88687 plus 0.83 pounds (376.49 grams) of extra KABF?

Peter

Peter,

Yes, I did mix 0.83 pounds of extra KASL to the final dough, today.  I just wanted to see what would happen with mixing the liquid poolish, that I had added to much water to on Friday. The dough very wet, so then I mixed the extra flour in.  I was surprised today to see the poolish that I had added extra water to, did have more bubbles.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on February 01, 2010, 06:45:27 PM
Norma,

If you made the modified poolish with 757.75 grams of flour and 378.31 grams of KASL, then the hydration was 200.3%, or about double a classic poolish (and about 50% higher than for the ciabatta dough recipe). That high a hydration promotes increased enzyme activity and, as a result, increased natural sugar for the yeast to use as food. That is most likely why you saw more bubbles in the modified poolish. Hopefully, the yeast did not run out of food during the prefermentation process. Maybe that wouldn't matter since I used more yeast than usual in the Final Mix.

With 0.83 pounds of extra KASL, the total dough batch weight should have increased and you should have ended up with five dough balls, as with the second dough batch, but with a smaller dough ball left over (not quite enough to make another 16" pizza). Is that what you experienced?

The numbers and percents will be different for the dough using the modified poolish. If it turns out that you like the pizzas made with the modified poolish better than the pizzas made with the normal poolish, I can recalculate everything. It will be interesting to see how things shake out, in terms of taste, crust flavors, color and texture. So, I look forward to your report comparing the two doughs.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on February 01, 2010, 07:12:00 PM
Peter,

I think the poolish on Friday was made with 757.75g water and 0.83 lbs of KASL.  I am not sure, but the next day I was thinking, why was the poolish so thin. The poolish was like a thin pancake batter.  I then decided to weigh the ingredients again because I was thinking it should have turned out like a thick pancake batter.  That is why there were two poolishes.  I wish I could be sure what I did on Friday, but donít know for sure. 
For the extra dough left at the end.  There is always extra dough when I do tests on 5 dough balls.  When I weigh my dough balls, I always weigh them at 1.024 lbs.  I know that makes a thin pizza, but find that works for me, when making a 16" pizza.  I just never adjusted the thickness factor and donít really know what my thickness factor is for a 16" pizza.  It was just something I found over a period of time that worked for me.  My middle of the crust is thin. 
The modified poolish did look like it was okay, today.  I will wait until tomorrow and see what happens.  The final dough mixed with the extra 0.83 lb. of KASL seemed okay, but a little more sticky.
It will be interesting to see what happens with both doughs, tomorrow.
I still have a dough ball left over from the 8 day fermentation in your other thread.  I had taken it to market last week and was going to try it, but didnít have time.  It was froze, thawed, and now, refrozen.  See if I have time to try it tomorrow.  It still looked good last week.


Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on February 01, 2010, 07:29:19 PM
Peter,

I just thought I did take a picture when making the poolish on Friday.  You can see if at reply #152.  You will see the measuring cup on my small scale.  Can you tell by looking at that picture, how much water I might have added?

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on February 01, 2010, 07:36:29 PM
There is always extra dough when I do tests on 5 dough balls.  When I weigh my dough balls, I always weigh them at 1.024 lbs.  I know that makes a thin pizza, but find that works for me, when making a 16" pizza.  I just never adjusted the thickness factor and donít really know what my thickness factor is for a 16" pizza.  It was just something I found over a period of time that worked for me.

Norma,

If you are using 1.024 pounds (16.384 ounces) of dough to make a 16" pizza, the thickness factor is 16.384/(3.14159 x 8 x 8) = 0.08149. You can use that value, together with a bowl residue compensation, if you do not want to end up with much leftover dough.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on February 01, 2010, 07:43:02 PM
Norma,

If you are using 1.024 pounds (16.384 ounces) of dough to make a 16" pizza, the thickness factor is 16.384/(3.14159 x 8 x 8) = 0.08149. You can use that value, together with a bowl residue compensation, if you do not want to end up with much leftover dough.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for figuring the thickness factor out for me.  I will use that in the future, along with a bowl residue compensation.  I also still have the picture on my camera and can compare it with my measuring cup tomorrow to see what the measurements might be of the water.  Maybe then you can tell how much water I used in the poolish I made Friday. 

Thanks,

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on February 01, 2010, 07:49:29 PM
I just thought I did take a picture when making the poolish on Friday.  You can see if at reply #152.  You will see the measuring cup on my small scale.  Can you tell by looking at that picture, how much water I might have added?

Norma,

I magnified the photo in Reply 152 and although I can only view the measuring cup at an angle from above I estimate that you used about 3 1/4 cups of water. That would come to 768.9 grams. That is close enough to 757.75 grams for us to safely conclude that you did, in fact, use 757.75 grams of water to make the modified poolish. 757.75 grams of water is 3.20 cups.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on February 01, 2010, 08:18:26 PM

That is close enough to 757.75 grams for us to safely conclude that you did, in fact, use 757.75 grams of water to make the modified poolish. 757.75 grams of water is 3.20 cups.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for going though the process of figuring this all out.  8)  At least now, if this modified poolish does produce a better crust flavor, it will be a beginning point to go forward.  I have the two different poolishes marked, so I will know tomorrow, which one I will be trying.
Sorry, to be causing all this confusion.  :o

Thanks,

Norma



Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on February 02, 2010, 09:59:35 PM
Both of the final doughs with the poolish and modified poolish turned out well, today.  I believe this is a great formula for anyone to try.  It is easy to make the poolish and the final pizzas turned out better than I expected. 
Special thanks to Peter for figuring all the math calculations out and for thinking this Ciabatta -Poolish Version might work for a preferment for the Lehmann dough.  Second special thanks is to old criter that posted the poolish for a Ciabatta Poolish using a Reinhart recipe. At reply #7 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10123.msg88451/topicseen.html#msg88451

Both doughs handled well and both finished pizzas looked artisan in appearance.  Both crusts were better than my regular Lehmann dough. 

I will post some pictures tonight and if anyone is interested, will post more pictures tomorrow.  I did have my daughter take a short video of opening both of the doughs. Although I didnít take the time I should have in opening both of the doughs, you will be able to see what they looked like.  I will upload them tomorrow on you tube and post them tomorrow, also. 
The poolish I used too much water in and then the final dough was more extensible.  I think it could have stretched a lot more than I needed. 

The first pictures are of the poolish that was mixed right.  These pictures start at 1527 jpg. and end at 1532 jpg.  The second set of pictures were of the poolish I mixed too much water in.  These pictures start at 1526 jpg. and end at 1561 jpg.  The last picture is of 2 pizzas made with the regular Lehmann dough, today.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on February 02, 2010, 10:06:53 PM
rest of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on February 02, 2010, 10:15:27 PM
Norma,

That's great news. The pizzas with the poolish look great. Did your usual tasters sample the new pizzas and, if so, what were their reactions?

Do you think that you will incorporate the poolish as a standard part of your Lehmann dough formulation?

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on February 02, 2010, 10:28:44 PM
Peter,

I really liked how both doughs handled and how the crusts on both tasted, also.  Yes, my taste testers did taste the pies and they really liked them, also.  Thanks for saying the new pizzas look great.  I really like the artisan look.  :)

I do think I will incorporate this into the Lehmann recipe.  Now, to make the choice of which one is best.   ::)

Could you tell me how to scale this poolish and final dough up to make my dough each week?

I think if anyone tries this new version of the preferment with the Lehmann dough they will be pleased with the results.

Thanks for taking the time to do the major reconstructive surgery on this poolish and final dough.  :)  How did you ever figure that out?

Thanks,

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Essen1 on February 02, 2010, 10:31:03 PM
Norma,

Most excellent looking pies!! Congrats to your success.

Looks like you outdid yourself there.  ;D

Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on February 02, 2010, 10:33:50 PM
Mike,

Thanks for the compliment.  :) I only did the mixing and making the pizzas.  The preferment was Peter's and old criter ideas together.

Thanks,

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on February 02, 2010, 10:53:38 PM
Norma,

How did I ever figure this thing out? Sometimes you just get lucky with these sorts of things. You try to apply the scientific principles correctly, do the number crunching, try to get the timing right, cross your fingers and hope that your instincts serve you well.

With respect to the dough formulation for larger scale application, there is still the matter of being able to make the poolish at market when it is cool. You might want to put together an inexpensive proofing box with a thermometer to monitor the temperature of prefermentation (the three hour part) and do another batch of dough to see if you can replicate your last results. Have you been making 15 pounds of dough for your regular Lehmann pizzas? If you'd like, we can do the calculations for the larger dough batch if you would like to use the larger dough batch as your next iteration using the poolish. I think I would stick with the classic poolish for now. You can always try the modified poolish in a later experiment where the contrast may be more pronounced and allow you to better decide which preferment you like better. I assume you may want to use the modified thickness factor no matter which way we go.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on February 02, 2010, 11:18:04 PM
Peter,

I must say you are very good are figuring out ways to sort all of this out.

I do have the things needed to make the proofing box.  I will put that together in the next few days, so I can also try that in seeing if that will produce better results because of the low temperature at market. 

As for the size of my batches.  Sometimes I use 15 lbs. and sometimes I use 10 lbs. additionally to get what I think I need for the week..  All depends on how much dough I think I will need for the Tuesday.  Each week is different.  Another thing is if I might have dough left over that are frozen to use in the coming week. 

Yes, I agree in using the classic poolish to start with. 

As for the thickness factor, it doesnít really matter.  The leftover dough I just use for paniniís.  They take 5 oz. of dough.  I used the leftover dough from yesterday and scaled the dough for the paniniís.  I did take pictures of them, also and they tasted better with the poolish.  I will post them later.

Thanks for your help,

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on February 03, 2010, 12:32:43 AM
These video file uploads on You Tube are of me opening the dough for the classic poolish and the modified poolish.  Although I didnít take the care I usually do in opening the dough, if anyone is interested you can how the two poolishes were in the final dough when opening. I just tried to open the dough fast, so the videos wouldnít take to long to upload.  The first video, I even dropped the dough. 
 
In conclusion, these dough with the poolish really handled well.

The first video is the classic poolish incorporated into the final dough.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6sz1Br1Wxc


The second video is the modified poolish incorporated into the final dough. It can be seen that this modified poolish was much more extensible than the classic poolish. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvOWNq0lZLg

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Essen1 on February 03, 2010, 12:41:36 AM
Mike,

Thanks for the compliment.  :) I only did the mixing and making the pizzas.  The preferment was Peter's and old criter ideas together.

Thanks,

Norma

Peter is invaluable to this forum and I believe he's the reason why this site enjoys the success and rave it has been receiving. Kudos also go out to Steve, who's the owner, for making it possible for us pizza enthusiasts to have a place to get together and Bill/SFNM for his valuable contributions and oversight.

But Peter is the, what I call, uncrowned King...or maybe Prince  ;D...of it all. He has helped not only me or you but many others to make their pies better and get where they want to be.

With that said, I'm sure your credits didn't go unnoticed.

Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on February 03, 2010, 12:56:21 AM
Peter is invaluable to this forum and I believe he's the reason why this site enjoys the success and rave it has been receiving. Kudos also go out to Steve, who's the owner, for making it possible for us pizza enthusiasts to have a place to get together and Bill/SFNM for his valuable contributions and oversight.

But Peter is the, what I call, uncrowned King...or maybe Prince  ;D...of it all. He has helped not only me or you but many others to make their pies better and get where they want to be.

With that said, I'm sure your credits didn't go unnoticed.



Mike,

I agree with all you have said.  :) Without this site owned by Steve and all the moderators that are willing to help, who could go wrong in trying to make any kind of pizza. I know it all takes time to learn to make any kind of pizza on this site, but there is so much help from moderators and members, alike.  Words can not express how grateful I am for this site.  I know Peter helped me from the beginning, when I sure didn't understand anything about making pizza.

I have watched your thread with great interest, also.  I really like to see how people are progressing.  It is amazing there is a site like this.  It sure is nice to be able to learn so much about pizza.  :)

Thanks,

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on February 03, 2010, 06:42:22 AM
This poolish preferment and final dough also worked out well for Cheesy Breadsticks and Panini's.  I used one dough from the classic poolish to make the cheesy breadsticks.  I the classic poolish and modified poolish using the leftover dough to make the Panini's.

The final picture is of one slice taken out of the pizza to see how thin the crust was.

Thanks, because this poolish preferment and final dough can be used for other food items.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on February 03, 2010, 11:03:34 AM
Mike and Norma,

Thanks for the compliments. However, I think you should be thanking Didier Rosada and Professor Calvel for their writings on the subject. I was just trying to put their teachings into use in your setting. Since it is rare that the first attempt at a preferment, in this case, a poolish, is likely to be the best representation or manifestation of that style, there are bound to be other variations of the poolish method that are better. This means that some further experimentation might be considered.

BTW, while I was looking for something else recently, I stumbled across another article by Didier Rosada in which he discusses some of the effects of preferments, starting at page 5, as well as other basic aspects of dough making. The article is at http://www.sfbi.com/pdfs/NewsF04a.pdf#search=%22autolyse%20time%20period%22. The treatment of preferment is more general than his other articles but still powerful in its own right. In fact, it was his discussion of the dough strengthening effects of preferments, which Rosada discusses over and over again, that reminded me to increase the hydration of your basic Lehmann dough formulation a bit to compensate. If that didn't work, I might have suggested the use of autolyse or something like that to improve incorporating the poolish into the final mix. I believe that it is possible that you had trouble doing that with the biga you attempted recently, and quite possibly that contributed to the webbing effect you described. I think it is easier to incorporate a wetter preferment into the final mix than a stiffer one. As I read the above article, I could see the influence that Professor Calvel had on Rosada.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on February 03, 2010, 12:05:00 PM
Peter,

Thanks for referencing that article.  It is very interesting to hear how intertwined the pizza making world and the bread world are.  It would be hard to do the tests like they are talking about in a laboratory environment, but I can see how extensibility, elasticity and tenacity all have to be taken into the pizza making, also. 

I really like the quote at the beginning that say ďOne can never know too much: the more one learns, the more one sees the need to learn more..study, as well as broadening the mind of the craftsman provides an easy way of perfecting yourself in the practice of your art.Ē quoted from Auguste Escoffier 

I really think this is what most of us are doing in trying to make different kinds of pizza.  The more one learns, the more we see we need to learn more.  You canít ever stop learning because each person and articles are teaching us more.

Reading about all the kinds of flour in bread making and also incorporating that into pizza making is interesting.  It seems like it is always getting back to getting the dough into balance. 

I also like the quote from Ralph Waldo Emerson.

In using a sourdough technique such as poolish and using it to make the gluten more extensible with out  using an autolyse, is something I will learn more in time.

I can now see how this preferment using the poolish and having it used in the final dough, was a great idea. 

I would like to express my thanks to Didier Rosada and Professor Calvel for studying all of this and helping us all to understand more about how dough behaves. 

Your idea of increasing the hydration was right on.  The dough did behave well and opening the dough was no problem. The dough felt so soft.  On some of the dough I did open, the one with the modified preferment almost could open by just holding your hands under the dough. 

If other experiments are needed or maybe just to see if there are other better ways or variations of the poolish, I would be willing to do them.  I am interested in producing the best pizza I am capable of in my setting.  Only time will tell what this could be.

Thanks,

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on February 03, 2010, 12:12:03 PM
Norma,

Very well said.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on February 03, 2010, 09:05:00 PM
Peter,

I have been thinking about starting the proofing box, but have some reservations.  For one thing if I would always use this at market, I would need some kind of food safe light inside. I do have food safe heat lights, but they would be too hot for the Styrofoam. Another thing that scares the dickens out of me is using Styrofoam.  Styrofoam is like popcorn, it can go up in flames very fast, if overheated.  When we used to pop corn in our shed we had two commercial poppers.  One was a wet popper, which used oil for popping the corn.  The other popper was a dry popper.  It only used the heat from flames and had a barrel that rotated and reversed.  If any many pieces of popcorn fell though the small grates, the whole batch of popcorn could catch on fire.  We had this happen to us a few times with the dry popper.  Luckily we always kept fire extinguishers nearby. With the wet popper and oil being added to the popcorn, it never caught on fire. Another thing happened with Styrofoam at market one day.  The man that owns the soft pretzel stand outside had Styrofoam cups near a cord.  The cord overheated and it almost burned his whole building down.  The firemen said Styrofoam is very dangerous around heat. 

I was thinking about what I might use, instead of the Styrofoam.  If I would use this classic poolish each week, I donít know how much poolish I would need from week to week.  In the summer, I would need a lot more.  I just thought about a heating display case I have in the tool shed.  Here is a picture of the heating display case.  It can go up in temperature and also can add humidity, if needed.  The shelves on this heated display case can be removed.

I will see what you have to say about using the heated display case.

Thanks,

Norma 
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on February 03, 2010, 09:48:14 PM
Norma,

Can you tell me what a "food safe light" is?

I got the idea for the Styrofoam proofing box from Ed Wood's book Classic Sourdoughs at page 35 and never got the impression that it might pose some danger. You can see my proofing box at Reply 6 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,403.msg4887.html#msg4887. In lieu of a Styrofoam unit, you might be able to modify a regular plastic picnic cooler to do the same thing. Member sourdough girl described one such design using a Coleman cooler at Reply 5 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8255.msg71205/topicseen.html#msg71205. However, if you are still concerned that some outside factor might pose a problem, you might be able to use your Hatco heating case. Can you tell me what its temperature range is?

Also, you might get some further ideas from this thread: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4775.msg40555.html#msg40555. Other members might also come to the rescue with some simple and inexpensive design that will work for you in your commercial setting. But, whatever device you end up with, it should be able to hold a poolish that is about 30% of the total dough weight, or 3 pounds for a 10-pound dough batch or 4.5 pounds for a 15-pound dough batch.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Bob1 on February 03, 2010, 09:58:11 PM
Norma,
Congratulations, glad to see it worked out for you.

Thanks,

Bob.
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on February 03, 2010, 10:03:46 PM
Peter,

A food safe light is a bulb that has a special coating, in case it would break.  Then it wouldnít pose any problems of shattered glass pieces on the food.  Even in my overhead lights, I need plastic light shields to protect from breakage.  When inspectors look at your equipment or lights you need these things to be food approved.  Also everything has to be NSF approved. 

I donít think in your case the low wattage in the light bulb would cause any problems. 

I will read over the links you have referenced. 

My Hatco heating case can vary in temperature.  There is a knob that controls the heat.  I am not sure what the heat ranges are, but know it has to reach 144 degrees F to be able to store food at a safe temperature.  That is only for some foods.  Other have to be higher.  I think it can go much lower, but I will have to plug it in and check.  I could put this unit under my pizza oven.  There is a big shelve under the pizza oven.  That also has to be 6" off the floor to store food.

Bob,

Thanks for the congrats!  I really like this poolish preferment and dough.  I see you have achieved success in using your starter.  Congrats to you, also.

Thanks,

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on February 03, 2010, 10:22:20 PM
Another thing about making food at home that can be approved for selling at a certified food place is in our state there are hazardous foods and non hazardous foods.  It really isn't a problem in obtaining a food license for baking at home.  You just have to have the food inspector come to your home and approve it for baking.  Baking is considered a non hazardous food.  It only costs 35.00 dollars to obtain this kind of license.  Many Amish and other people do their baking in their homes and then sell them to other stores.  When we made the candy and popped the corn used for making the caramel corn at market, the food was considered non hazardous.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Essen1 on February 03, 2010, 10:51:12 PM
Another thing about making food at home that can be approved for selling at a certified food place is in our state there are hazardous foods and non hazardous foods.  It really isn't a problem in obtaining a food license for baking at home.  You just have to have the food inspector come to your home and approve it for baking.  Baking is considered a non hazardous food.  It only costs 35.00 dollars to obtain this kind of license.  Many Amish and other people do their baking in their homes and then sell them to other stores.  When we made the candy and popped the corn used for making the caramel corn at market, the food was considered non hazardous.

Norma

Norma,

I wish I could say the same about the State of California.

No such thing as getting approved to make food at home and sell it at a market. You need to rent a commercial kitchen over here in order to make anything to be able to sell it to the public. I know because I looked into selling my pasta sauces but the costs to get a project like that off the ground are enormous. Killed the whole fun immediately. Not to mention the insurance premiums one will have to pay since insurance is mandatory.

A little too paranoid if you ask me.
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on February 03, 2010, 11:03:17 PM
Mike,

Sorry to hear your state is so strict.  In the baking at home here you just can't make certain foods, like custards (pumpkin pies and other custards).  As for making sauces here, you aren't allowed to do that either.   :(  Only baked items, candy or non perishable foods.  It all can be confusing.  In our state if you look under Department of Agriculture Pa. Food inspections you can type in any food operation and get a report of what their inspection results are.  They post the results each week in our newspaper of who got inspected and what they found.  Since I have been in the food business for awhile, I usually check how the place looks before I eat there.  What really got me before I opened the pizza stand was in questioning the inspector what I could and couldn't do, I asked him about making pizza and using gloves.  I said I never saw anyone use gloves to put toppings on pizza.  He replied, "You don't have to use gloves to prepare pizza, because it is put into a hot oven and this kills anything."  Even when we made the candy and popped the corn in the shed, we didn't need to take a food safe test.  That is only for hazardous foods. 

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Essen1 on February 03, 2010, 11:11:31 PM
Norma,

Lucky you. Maybe I need to move to PA.  ;D
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on February 03, 2010, 11:15:15 PM
Norma,

Lucky you. Maybe I need to move to PA.  ;D

Mike,

LOL...I couldn't make pizza at home and sell it at market.  Only baked goods and other non hazardous foods.  What kind of food are you thinking about making?  ::)

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on February 04, 2010, 08:14:53 AM
Norma,

But, whatever device you end up with, it should be able to hold a poolish that is about 30% of the total dough weight, or 3 pounds for a 10-pound dough batch or 4.5 pounds for a 15-pound dough batch.

Peter


I looked on the Hatco website and downloaded manual, product brochure, and spec sheet.  Below is what they say.  I think since this Hatco unit can start at a 80 degree holding temperature, it might work to heat the preferment.  Since it is food approved, I donít think there would be any other problems with me having it at market.
I also would need to make more than 4.5 lb. batches of the preferment, because in making my dough, depending on the time of year, I make multiple batches of 15 lbs, to meet what dough I might need.  My 20 qt. mixer will only make 15 lb. of dough at a time.  If then needed I might make a 10 lb. batch of dough, also.


The Hatco ďoperator friendlyĒ control panel makes it easy to set the correct heat and
humidity levels. Convenient dials regulate temperature and moisture, while a green
light indicates the humidity-cycle. A red light signals low-water in the reservoir. The
cabinet heat is monitored by a temperature indicator, and a front-fill reservoir cup
makes it easy to add water.

PRODUCT SPECS
Impulse Display Cabinet
The humidity controlled Impulse Display Cabinet shall be a Flav-R-Freshģ
Model ... rated at ... volts and ... watts, as manufactured by the Hatco
Corporation, Milwaukee,WI 53234 U.S.A.
With 24/7 parts and service assistance (U.S. and Canada only), the
cabinet shall have ....door(s), tempered glass sides, stationary rack
(or revolving display), and fluorescent display light. It shall include
a water reservoir, electronic controls, on-off switch, and indicating lights.
A 6' (1829 mm) cord with plug shall be attached.
Accessories shall include merchandising racks, display

The temperature range is 80?Ė195?F
(27?Ė91?C) in single degree increments. See the ďFood
Holding GuideĒ in this section for recommendations.
                  

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on February 04, 2010, 11:51:14 AM
Norma,

Last night I also went to the Hatco website and saw the same temperature range for the Hatco unit. As you noted, it looks like the lowest temperature setting is 80 degrees F. That is actually the prefermentation temperature that Didier Rosada states in one of his articles (Part 1) for a poolish. For that temperature, he states a water temperature of 60 degrees F. These values can be varied but will affect the time that it takes for the poolish to reach the break point and may also alter the characteristics of the poolish. So, you may have to run a test poolish in your Hatco unit to see how long it takes for the poolish to get to the same volume and stage of bubbling that you got with your last poolish (the classic one) that worked out so well. Ultimately, you will perhaps also have to run another test poolish for the much larger dough batches that you expect to use. That will be the more important test.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on February 04, 2010, 12:22:17 PM
Norma,

Last night I also went to the Hatco website and saw the same temperature range for the Hatco unit. As you noted, it looks like the lowest temperature setting is 80 degrees F. That is actually the prefermentation temperature that Didier Rosada states in one of his articles (Part 1) for a poolish. For that temperature, he states a water temperature of 60 degrees F. These values can be varied but will affect the time that it takes for the poolish to reach the break point and may also alter the characteristics of the poolish. So, you may have to run a test poolish in your Hatco unit to see how long it takes for the poolish to get to the same volume and stage of bubbling that you got with your last poolish (the classic one) that worked out so well. Ultimately, you will perhaps also have to run another test poolish for the much larger dough batches that you expect to use. That will be the more important test.


Peter


Peter,

Thanks letting me know what Didier Rosada states for the water temperature of the poolish.  That will give a starting point to work on. 

I think for this week, I am going to just make the classic poolish over again Friday at market and see if I get the same results.  I had made the classic poolish last Saturday, so it didnít really reflect the 3 day poolish.  If this works out with the same results, then I will try the Hatco Unit and see what results there are with making the poolish for a 3 day period, before incorporating into the final dough. 

I will try the Hatco unit out over the weekend to make sure the temperature will stay at 80 degrees F.  There is a temperature readout on this model, so I should be able to see how to adjust the temperature. I think there would be enough room in the unit to put food grade containers for the amounts of poolish I might need.

I also see the need for more tests, to see how larger amounts of the poolish work.

Will post the results of how well the classic poolish works out this coming week and also how well the Hatco unit maintains the temperature of 80 degrees F.

Thanks,

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on February 07, 2010, 09:41:21 PM
The Hatco Merchandiser can maintain a temperature of 80 degrees F for 3 hours.  Tomorrow I will see if the poolish did well.  When I went to market Friday it was usually warm.  They had just installed a new propane heater near my stand and it just kept running.  The ambient temperature was 72 degrees Friday.  The disk heater was still turned on and the poolish bubbled in two and a half hours.  Now, the next problem is how I am going to get the Hatco Merchandiser out of the Tool Shed and around to the van.  There is a path shoveled, but I am not sure if the bag wagon will be able to fit and be able take the Merchandiser out to the van. 

Just a note that Rootís Market is asking standholders to take one of their products and give the proceeds to Haitian Relief.  Here is their newsletter and sign we are supposed to put at our stands.


ROOT'S 

Country Market & Auction

"With over 250 Standholders, Your Dollar Buys More At Root's"

CELEBRATING  OUR  85th  ANNIVERSARY  in  2010

OPEN YEAR ROUND, "THIS TUESDAY AND EVERY TUESDAY"

... "Neither Rain, Nor Snow, Nor Sleet, Nor Hail Shall... "

RESULTS from the FAVORITE  DECORATED  STAND  Contest 

1st Place    BYERS' BUTTERFLAKE BAKERY (Area #2)

2nd Place    ALLESIO'S SPAGHETTI SAUCE (Area #3)

3rd Place    BURKHART'S BAKERY (Area #1)

4th Tie     ENCK'S CUSTOM CATERING (Area#5)  and  SMITH'S CANDIES (Area#2)

HONORABLE MENTIONS:  Breneman's Produce,  Nancy's Goodies,  Asian Carry Out,  Hummer's Deli,  Faye's Monogramming,  AllWood Cabinets,  Zerbe's Chips,  Reece's Avon,  Buckwalter's Deli,  Fink's French Fries,  T.E. Phillips Nursery,  Norma's Pizza,  Piersol's Nuts,  Foods from Afar,  The Honey Stand,  Sweet Nellie, Glick's Cheese Stand,  D'Agostino's Variety Store,  S. Clyde Weaver Deli.

GIFT CERTIFICATE WINNERS are posted in the Office lobby.

 

CALENDAR -  Market Hours  - TUESDAYS Until 8 p.m. (Nov.-Mar) and 9-9pm (April-October)   

    *
      TUESDAY      Feb.    2    Market Day   &  CENTRAL PENN BLOOD BANK'S   BLOOD DRIVE
    *
      TUESDAY      Feb.    9    Market Day
    *
      TUESDAY      Feb.   16   Market Day
    *
      TUESDAY      Feb.   23   Market Day
    *
      TUESDAY      Mar.    2    Market Day   &  CENTRAL PENN BLOOD BANK'S   BLOOD DRIVE
    *
    *
      SATURDAY   April  10    FIRST SATURDAY FLEA MARKET   &  SPECIAL POULTRY AUCTION
    *
    *
      SATURDAY   May    1     ROOT'S SPRING CAR SHOW 

Be sure to visit www.rootsmarket.com   and   www.rootsoldmill.com  for listing of activities around the market grounds.

 

CENTRAL PENN BLOOD BANK- is scheduled to be at Root's this TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 2nd  AND every  FIRST TUESDAY OF THE MONTH throughout 2010.   

 

HAITIAN RELIEF EFFORT - During the month of February, standholders throughout the market will be advertising the sale of a selected item(s).   Profits from those items will go directly to the Mennonite Central Committee's Haitian Disaster Relief.   Thank you for supporting this effort by Root's standholders.    The idea for this effort came from:  Burkhart's Bakery (Main Building Area #1).

 

CUSTOMER QUESTIONNAIRE - Available in the office lobby.   Please take the time to fill out this questionnaire.   Your response will be automatically entered in GIFT CERTIFICATE DRAWINGS for Root's Country Market, Root's Old Mill Flea Market or for individual stands.

 

AT THE MILL - ANTIQUES  &  FLEA MARKET - Across Graystone Road from Root's Country Market is ROOT'S OLD MILL FLEA MARKET.   In Mill Building #1 and #2,  there are 21 booths offering a wide variety of antiques and flea market items including VINTAGE & NEW JEWELRY, BOARD GAMES, BOOKS, RECORDS, GLASSWARE, COLLECTIBLES,  SPORTING GOODS, PAPER GOODS, ADVERTISING ITEMS, TOOLS, DVDs & MUCH MORE.    See Jim in the office for a selection of GOOD USED FURNITURE also.

 

IN ROOT'S COUNTRY  -  Located across Lititz Road from Root's is EVERGREEN GOLF offering 18 holes of Executive Course golf and 18 holes of Pitch and Putt.   Evergreen Golf's EXECUTIVE COURSE  is a par 66 course,  4,569 yards long and provides all the challenges of golf from sand traps, a par 5 and various par 4 holes on well maintained fairways and greens  but on a executive length course that takes only around three hours to play.   Evergreen Golf also has clubs and carts for rent and golf merchandise for sale in the clubhouse.   The PITCH & PUTT COURSE is par 3 golf on all 18 holes.   With playing time of approximately one and a half hours, Evergreen's Pitch and Putt Course is perfect for people of all ages to learn and enjoy the game.    Evergreen Golf even provides the clubs and balls at no additional charge.   Call the clubhouse at 717-898-7852.

 

 ABBY'S FOUNDATION  &  ROOT'S  -  ROOT'S OLD MILL FLEA MARKET Manager, Jim Brubaker is losing more weight.   During the next eight months, Jim and a devoted group of people will lose weight and Jim is getting sponsors for Abby's Foundation as encouragement.   Jim's goal is to lose 53 more pounds.  Last year in a successful weight loss challenge with Root's general manager, Jim lost 40 pounds and raised over $5000 for charity.   This year, Jim is using nutritional information and a local gym, EXTREME PHYSIQUE & NUTRITION in Mountville, to help him achieve this new goal.    If you would like to JOIN JIM IN LOSING WEIGHT, call him at 717-898-7443.    TO MAKE A DONATION IN SUPPORT, click  www.abbysfoundation.org/donation.asp   and write   JIM'S 2010 WEIGHT LOSS CHALLENGE  in the comment section.    You can see a VIDEO CLIP OF JIM'S EFFORTS on  WGAL.COM.    Katelyn Smith of WGALTV8 recently interviewed Jim during a work out session at the gym which was then broadcast on Thursday morning news January 28th.   click here to see the video  at    www.wgal.com/video/index.html

Helping Jim achieve his own goal is :  Steve Nolt of EXTREME PHYSIQUE & NUTRITION in Mountville  (717-689-4618).                        Joining Jim in losing weight AND gettting sponsorship help towards the goal are:   Jim Houser, Root's Security Officer...  Baron Sweitzer of SWEITZER'S CLEANING...   Sandy Weeks of the SUDDENLY SLIM / ZAVITA stand at Root's (Main Building Area#3)...   

THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR YOUR SUPPORT OF ABBY'S FOUNDATION.    www.abbysfoundation.org

ABBY'S FOUNDATION - Helping Non Profit Organizations Help Children Since 1998.

 

 

The first four people to call the office and speak with Joan or Susan will receive a Root's Country Market & Auction LARGE BLUE SHOPPING BAG made from recycled material .  Thank you for reading this email and for thinking GREEN with a BLUE ROOT'S SHOPPING BAG.

 

 "This TUESDAY and EVERY TUESDAY,

Shop  ROOT'S COUNTRY MARKET & AUCTION"

"A Lancaster County Tradition Since 1925"
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on February 08, 2010, 05:40:59 PM
The poolish today looked okay.  The temperature at market was still warm.  When incorporating the poolish into the final dough, the dough looked too sticky and wet.  I am puzzled why this would have happened. I did double check my weights on the scale and measured each ingredient in different containers, before adding them together in the mixer.  I knew how the final dough looked and felt last week.  I decided to add more flour, so the dough would feel more like last weeks dough with the classic poolish.  I added .234 lbs. of flour.  The poolish with preferment then felt about the same as last week.  The final dough temperature was 79 degrees F.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on February 08, 2010, 06:05:00 PM
Norma,

Did you use the dough formulation as set forth earlier in this thread at Reply 149 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg88687.html#msg88687 ? And what was the prefermentation temperature (80 degrees F?) and the duration of the prefermentation you used this time with your Hatco unit? And what was the water temperature you used to make the poolish?

If you added 0.234 lb. more flour, that would be an extra 3.74 ounces. That would be about 4.2% of the total dough weight given in the above dough formulation. It's hard to say how that disparity came about but you did the proper thing to get the dough to the normal condition. Let's see what you get before trying to do a lot of speculating at this point. This exercise should be useful in telling us what kinds of variations you are likely to experience from week to week should your goal be to use the poolish on an ongoing basis.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on February 08, 2010, 06:25:02 PM
Peter,

Yes, I did use the dough formulation in Reply 149.  When making the poolish on Friday I used a water temperature of 80 degrees F, because it was very warm at market.  I didnít take the temperature of the poolish after I had mixed it.  It was left out to ferment and after it became bubbly, then I put it in the deli case.  I didnít use the Hatco unit this week.  I just wanted to see if I would get the same results as last week in doing everything the same. 
The dough was still sticky, but like last week there werenít any problems it forming the dough into balls, after I had added the extra flour. 
Maybe there will have to be another test next week to compare last weeks dough to this weeks and to find out why I had to add more flour. 

Thanks for going over this,

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on February 08, 2010, 06:34:27 PM
Norma,

Do you remember the room temperature at market where you made the poolish? And was that poolish a day older than the last one?

Also, when you make your regular Lehmann dough (without any preferments), do you find it necessary to make flour or water adjustments in the mixer bowl?

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on February 08, 2010, 06:57:23 PM
Peter,

The room temperature was between 70-72 degrees.  The new heater in the ceiling the market had put in wasnít working right and it kept running.  Itís rare for the temperature at market to be this warm on a non market day.  Yes, the poolish was one day older.  Since I had made the mistake the other week in measuring the poolish and ended up with the modified poolish that was made Friday and then remade the classic poolish Saturday.

I never find it necessary to make any water or flour adjustments for my regular Lehmann dough.  It always turns out the same.  The only thing I need to change on the regular Lehmann dough is the water temperature to get the dough between 80-85 degrees.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on February 08, 2010, 07:59:27 PM
Norma,

Let's stick to our plan and see what you get for results this time. I always try to figure out why things happen even though this time I couldn't see any reason, other than measurement error, for the poolish to end up with about 3.74 ounces more water than called for in the formulation for the poolish. If anything, you might have lost a bit of the water to evaporation. The difference might also have arisen in the addition of flour and/or water as part of the final mix. If you regularly found it necessary to make adjustments in the mixer bowl, that might have explained the difference but that doesn't seem to apply to the latest case.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on February 08, 2010, 08:28:26 PM

Let's stick to our plan and see what you get for results this time. I always try to figure out why things happen even though this time I couldn't see any reason, other than measurement error, for the poolish to end up with about 3.74 ounces more water than called for in the formulation for the poolish. If anything, you might have lost a bit of the water to evaporation. The difference might also have arisen in the addition of flour and/or water as part of the final mix. If you regularly found it necessary to make adjustments in the mixer bowl, that might have explained the difference but that doesn't seem to apply to the latest case.

Peter,

I will stick with the plan and see what kind of results are achieved.  I also try to figure out what I might be doing wrong.  That is why last week after thinking about the poolish and how it was supposed to look, I figured I must have done something wrong.  Then I went ahead and made another poolish.  The only thing I did was open a new bag of flour for the final dough.  I sure donít think that made any difference.
I can see how I made measurement errors the other week.. Since I weighed the ingredients two times and the ingredients were in different containers this week, it has me guessing. You just never know until you try again and then see what might have happened. 
I will make the classic poolish again next week and then might see what could have happened.
I will explain how the final dough works out tomorrow.  We have a winter storm warning for sometime in the pm tomorrow and the storm is supposed to last until sometime Wednesday.  Maybe market day will be over earlier.  When there is bad weather, usually market stand holders go home early if the roads get too bad.  The back roads still arenít the best here, so more snow will only make things worse.

Thanks,

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on February 08, 2010, 08:41:40 PM
Norma,

It is possible that using fresh flour might have played a role in the dough wetness your experienced, because the new flour may have had a higher moisture content than your older flour, but with 41.36 ounces of flour added in the final mix, I don't think it should have had a material impact. Maybe there are also some humidity effects. The other possible explanation that we didn't consider is that your last poolish was off and that the most recent one is entirely correct ;D.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on February 08, 2010, 08:55:36 PM

The other possible explanation that we didn't consider is that your last poolish was off and that the most recent one is entirely correct ;D.

Peter

Peter,

O please..not another consideration of wrong measurements..lol..will see what happens tomorrow.  ::)

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on February 09, 2010, 07:48:58 PM
The classic poolish mixed with the final Lehmann dough, worked out well today.  :)  I really like how this dough handles and also how the crust tastes.  If I can make this formula consistently, I am sure I want to change to this new formula with preferment for the Lehmann  dough. Even with the extra work to prepare the poolish and then to mix into final dough, I think the it would be worth the extra work.  I think this formula works well with KASL.
The dough is so soft and can be easily opened.  Even the aroma of the dough balls are different and I like the aroma.  The finished pizza crust does have a better crust flavor in my opinion.  I used all 5 of the test dough balls today.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on February 09, 2010, 07:50:36 PM
rest of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on February 09, 2010, 08:00:25 PM
Norma,

Congratulations. The pizzas look great. It looks like the dough formulation can tolerate some variation without adversely affecting the outcome.

What is next on the agenda? To try a Hatco poolish for another small dough batch?

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on February 09, 2010, 08:13:20 PM
Norma,

Congratulations. The pizzas look great. It looks like the dough formulation can tolerate some variation without adversely affecting the outcome.

What is next on the agenda? To try a Hatco poolish for another small dough batch?

Peter

Peter,

Thank you for the congratulations.  I guess you are right in saying the dough formulation can tolerate changes.  It didn't appear to have any adverse effects on the dough made this week. 

I would like to try the Hatco poolish if I can get the Hatco merchandiser out of the tool shed with the bag wagon and get it into my van. The merchandiser is heavy, so I will need help in getting it around to the van. There is a big snow storm here right now and it all depends on if I can get the Hatco merchandiser to market by Friday.  This is plan A.

If I can't get it there by Friday, I will have to go for plan B.  That is make the poolish the same way I did this week and then maybe by next week go back to plan A.

Thanks,

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Glutenboy on February 09, 2010, 09:53:58 PM
Norma -

They look delicious.  Nice blistering on the cornicione and perfect char underneath!  Did the crust flavor live up to its appearance?
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on February 09, 2010, 10:07:49 PM
Norma -

They look delicious.  Nice blistering on the cornicione and perfect char underneath!  Did the crust flavor live up to its appearance?

Glutenboy,

Thanks for saying they look delicious.  :)   The crust flavor is much better in my opinion, than the regular Lehmann dough I was using.  I can compare this crust to other doughs I had made before, some that went to 8 days fermentation or even dough I had left in the deli case and then one of the doughs that looked like it wasn't suitable for use. 

Even with using KASL, the crust seemed to have enough color.

I still can't see how Peter came up with this formulation, but for me the poolish is the key to this forumla's success. 

I will do more tests and see if anything needs to be changed.  Right now I don't see the need to change anything.

I wonder if Peter is going to try his own formula and see what kind of results he gets?   ::)

Thanks,

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on February 10, 2010, 10:33:21 AM
I wonder if Peter is going to try his own formula and see what kind of results he gets?   ::)

Norma,

That is quite possible. However, since I now know that what you tried works, I think I would try to push the envelope further, like subjecting more of the formula flour to the poolish prefermentation process. I might even think about using some diastatic malt to increase the enzyme activity to get more residual sugar for crust coloration purposes.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on February 10, 2010, 10:59:31 AM
   


I think I would try to push the envelope further, like subjecting more of the formula flour to the poolish prefermentation process, for example, to about 75% of the formula flour rather than about 53% where it now stands. I might even think about using some diastatic malt to increase the enzyme activity to get more residual sugar for crust coloration purposes.

Peter


Peter,

It would be interesting to see what results you get if you decide to subject more of the formula flour to the poolish prefermentation process. 

I know my camera isnít the best and doesnít always reflect what the true colors are of the pizza and of course I am not the best photographer, but do you think at this point I should consider adding some diastatic  malt for crust coloration? Or is it something that should be tried farther down the line?

Thanks,

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on February 10, 2010, 11:24:26 AM
I know my camera isnít the best and doesnít always reflect what the true colors are of the pizza and of course I am not the best photographer, but do you think at this point I should consider adding some diastatic  malt for crust coloration? Or is it something that should be tried farther down the line?

Norma,

No, at this point I think I would stick with your plan, which is to use the Hatco unit for the next small dough batch if you can get the unit to market. If that isn't possible, you could try a small dough batch using some diastatic malt. Remember, however, that you are selling primarily slices. If you look at NY street pizzas sometime when you are in NYC you see that most of the slice joints don't have dark, charred crusts like most of our members like. The crusts are sometimes almost white. But, once the slices are reheated, they develop more crust color. I don't know if that has been your experience with your particular oven, but, if so, you might not want too much crust color coming out of your oven. But that is just my opinion based on my experience at home where I don't go overboard with the initial bake to get more color because I know that I am going to be reheating most of the slices as leftovers in my toaster oven.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on February 10, 2010, 12:24:35 PM
Norma,

No, at this point I think I would stick with your plan, which is to use the Hatco unit for the next small dough batch if you can get the unit to market. If that isn't possible, you could try a small dough batch using some diastatic malt. Remember, however, that you are selling primarily slices. If you look at NY street pizzas sometime when you are in NYC you see that most of the slice joints don't have dark, charred crusts like most of our members like.

Peter

Peter and anyone who is following this thread,

As of around 10:00 this morning here is a picture of how much snow we are getting.  Right now we are having blizzard conditions and the Governor of our State has put us in a state of emergency.  I think for this week, there is no way I am going to be able to take the Hatco Merchandiser over to market.  This snow will probably take a long while to shovel or plow.  I will just make the classic poolish and incorporate into the final dough on Monday.  They are calling for more snow on Monday and Tuesday.  Who knows what will happen until then.  :-\  I don't have any diastatic malt right now, so I will post on what I did by Monday.

Thanks for your advise,

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: scott123 on February 11, 2010, 08:51:22 AM
Remember, however, that you are selling primarily slices. If you look at NY street pizzas sometime when you are in NYC you see that most of the slice joints don't have dark, charred crusts like most of our members like. The crusts are sometimes almost white. But, once the slices are reheated, they develop more crust color. I don't know if that has been your experience with your particular oven, but, if so, you might not want too much crust color coming out of your oven. But that is just my opinion based on my experience at home where I don't go overboard with the initial bake to get more color because I know that I am going to be reheating most of the slices as leftovers in my toaster oven.

Peter

As much as I revere just about every aspect of NYC pizza-dom, re-heating pizzas seems to be one area where an overwhelming number of great pizzerias drop the ball. It's an achilles heel, imo. Crust is so vital to great pizza and so complex that it's easy to overlook cheese's simple needs.  Beyond choosing a quality mozz, the most important aspect of cheese is that it has to be cooked properly. Unless cheese is bubbled and lightly browned, it will not give off it's full flavor/buttery goodness. Most people get this, but not all. Taking mozz only to the melting point is one of the biggest cardinal sins in pizza making.  I can't tell you how many empty pizzerias I've walked past in midtown/upper Manhattan that have pies sitting out with listless pale cheese. It's depressing.  Even great pizzerias will bubble and brown their whole pies, only to completely disrespect the cheese on their slice pies thinking they can make up for it on the re-heat. This thinking is completely off base. Although one can give the crust some color on a re-heat, if the cheese wasn't cooked properly on the first go, it will never bubble and brown correctly when re-warmed.  Without the steam in the dough from the initial baking, the cheese never gets enough bottom heat to bubble.

The other aspect of the re-heating fail is the propensity to re-heat slices to mouth burning levels. Out of the hundreds of pizzerias that I've had slices at, I've never had a pizzaiolo, on their own accord, take a slice out of the oven before it was napalm hot.  Every single time I have to get their attention and tell them the slice is ready.

So, summing up. On slice pies- cook your cheese.  If this means charring or lots of crust color, fine, just make sure the cheese is bubbling and lightly browned. And on the re-heat... less is more. Warm it a few seconds, don't bake the living daylights out of it. Yes, I am breaking with tradition here, but I think these particular traditions (undercooked slice cheese and napalm re-heats) need to be questioned.

Oh, and this rant is directed to pizza makers in general. Not you Norma.  Your pies/cheese looks right on the money.

And I'm sorry to hear about your snow troubles. We got about 8 inches where we are and that made for a lot of snow shoveling misery (this batch was especially wet/heavy this time), but that's child play compared to what you're suffering through.
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on February 11, 2010, 09:36:24 AM
scott123,

Thanks for saying about our snow troubles.  Here is a picture this morning of the back tool shed and just from shoveling snow from the back.  Another from the other shed where the snow blower is..LOL, it is going to take awhile just to get to it. 

As for what you are saying about baking the cheese and also keeping the slices and reheating them.  In my case I have a heated, revolving, humidified case that can keep three pies up to temperature and humidified after baking.  I only hold the pizza for so long because the pizza can get dried out even with humidity.  Usually the slices sell before the hold time.  In some instances I just give any slices away to other stand holders.  That doesnít happen too often.  I do reheat the individual slices in the deck oven if someone wants it reheated.  In my opinion the slices are almost the same as when finished baking.  The only thing the heated merchandiser does is make the crust softer.  Some people like a soft crust and only want the pizza warm, not reheated. 

The third picture is of my stand.  You can see the heated merchandiser.

These are just things I do after making the pizza.

Thanks,

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Mad_Ernie on February 11, 2010, 09:39:59 AM
Love the Elmo on your counter (and so would my daughter)  ;)  :-D
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: scott123 on February 11, 2010, 09:42:29 AM
Norma, like I said, my rant wasn't directed at you.  It was just one of those things that I needed to get out. ;D
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on February 11, 2010, 09:50:30 AM
Mad_Ernie,

Thanks for saying you like the Singing Elmo.  :)  Children are really wild about him and also, adults.  I purchased him on Ebay for 4.00, quite a buy.  He even has a singing pizza that moves his mouth and eyes when he sings. 

Norma

scott123,

I didn't take your cheese and oven heating directed at me.  :)  I just wanted to let you know what I do.  I sure am not an expert, as I am sure other pizza operators aren't either.  I just try to find the best way to try things.  I can get quite complicated in knowing what the best ways to make a pizza in a commercial setting can be.  ::)

Thanks,

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on February 11, 2010, 10:15:28 AM
Mad_Ernie,

Here is a link to the singing Elmo and pizza.  Your daughter can watch Elmo and his pizza sing.  :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxE0p2A9Ieo

Norma

Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on February 15, 2010, 08:01:28 AM



Peter,

I would like to ask a few questions about using the preferment poolish and final dough.  It is supposed to snow here later today and maybe some tomorrow.  I am undecided if I am going to incorporate the poolish into the final dough today.  I have to decide if I think there will be enough people at market tomorrow, for me to make my regular Lehmann dough and sauce.  Last week because of the predicted big snow, market was really slow.  When the weather men predict snow, that usually keeps people away from market. 
The questions I want to ask you is if I donít make the final dough with the preferment today, can I bring the poolish home and just make a single batch of dough here at home and see what kind of results I get?  Do you have a formula worked out for a single dough ball using the preferment poolish?  Would you advise to just go ahead and make the final dough and if needed, freeze the dough balls?

Since it will be Fastnacht Day here tomorrow, that usually brings out a lot of people to market.  Many bakeries sell the Fasnachtís here.  Fastnacht Day is a tradition here in Pa. Dutch Country.  If anyone is following this thread, this day is celebrated on the day before Ash Wednesday, which is the last Tuesday before Lent.  The tradition were originally made as a way to empty the pantry of lard, sugar, fat, and butter. 

If any one is interested in seeing what Fastnacht Day here is, here are two links.


http://winter-recipes.suite101.com/article.cfm/fastnacht_day

http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art8521.asp

Thanks,

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on February 15, 2010, 10:08:37 AM
Norma,

There is no reason that I can see why you shouldn't be able to make just one 16" pizza using the poolish you have made. The way you would come up with the ingredients would be to go to Reply 149 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg88687.html#msg88687 and divide everything by five. However, since there may be others who may be interested in the dough formulation of just one 16" pizza, I have set forth the details below, as follows:

Total Lehmann NY Style Dough Formulation (for a single 16" pizza)
King Arthur Sir Lancelot Flour (100%):
Water (61%):
IDY (0.40%):
Salt (1.75%):
Olive Oil (1%):
Total (164.15%):
310.16 g  |  10.94 oz | 0.68 lbs
189.2 g  |  6.67 oz | 0.42 lbs
1.24 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.41 tsp | 0.14 tbsp
5.43 g | 0.19 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.97 tsp | 0.32 tbsp
3.1 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.69 tsp | 0.23 tbsp
509.13 g | 17.96 oz | 1.12 lbs | TF = 0.08932
Note: Nominal thickness factor = 0.088; for one dough ball for a single 16" pizza; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

Preferment (Poolish)
King Arthur Sir Lancelot Flour (100%):
Water (100%):
IDY (0.30%):
Total (200.3%):
75.66 g  |  2.67 oz | 0.17 lbs
75.66 g  |  2.67 oz | 0.17 lbs
0.23 g | 0.01 oz | 0 lbs | 0.08 tsp | 0.03 tbsp (this is a bit less than 3/32 t.)
151.55 g | 5.35 oz | 0.33 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: Poolish represents about 80% of the Total Formula Water and about 30% of the total dough weight.

Final Mix
Poolish (from above):                                                         151.55 g | 5.35 oz | 0.33 lbs
Remaining Total Formula King Arthur Sir Lancelot Flour (100%):
Remaining Total Formula Water (48.4166%):
Remaining Total Formula IDY (0.4324%):
Total Formula Salt (2.31470%):
Total Formula Olive Oil (1.3228%):
234.5 g  |  8.27 oz | 0.52 lbs
113.54 g  |  4 oz | 0.25 lbs
1.01 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.34 tsp | 0.11 tbsp
5.43 g | 0.19 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.97 tsp | 0.32 tbsp
3.1 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.69 tsp | 0.23 tbsp
Total Dough Batch Weight:                                                 509.13 g | 17.96 oz | 1.12 lbs

For future reference, you may want to double check my math to be sure that it is correct.

In your case, to make one dough ball you should use 151.55 grams of your poolish quantity and add the remaining ingredients as specified above under the Final Mix.

Your single dough ball test should be a good one to see how the dough recipe stands up to scaling down to that size. So, I look forward to your results. However, should you reconsider and decide to make the full dough batch and freeze the dough balls, I think that should work too. However, since there can be no fermentation for the dough balls while frozen, you will have to allow enough time in advance of use to recover the loss of fermentation. There is also no reason why you can't do both. You can use one dough ball and freeze the rest.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on February 15, 2010, 10:42:26 AM
Peter,

Thank you for your advise.  Your information for other members or guests that might want to try this preferment with the poolish and final dough will be helpful if they decide to try it.
I had another member PM me about not understanding how the poolish should be mixed.  I answered them with the post of old criter and then the dough formulation you had given.  I also told them I didnít really know how to scale this recipe down, but since you have just given the easy way of dividing by 5, I donít know why I didnít think about that before. 

I will see what happens today.  My mother was at our home last night for dinner.  She had a spell that she didnít know what she was doing and when my daughter and I tried to help her to the couch she just buckled over and we had to put her on the floor.  I called 911, but by that time she came to.  She is an independent person and didnít want the ambulance.  I am taking her to the doctors soon to see what might be wrong.  She is feeling okay now, but this concerns me.  It all depends on what the doctor says this morning.  It will depend on if the doctor thinks she needs more tests if I can get market ready today.

I will post later today on what I decided to do about the preferment with the poolish and the final dough.  It would be interesting to see what would happen with one dough ball at home and one frozen.

I donít think I have to check your math, it mine that sometimes gets mixed up.  ::)

Thanks,

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on February 15, 2010, 11:21:23 AM
I had another member PM me about not understanding how the poolish should be mixed.  I answered them with the post of old criter and then the dough formulation you had given.

Norma,

I hope that all turns out well for your mother.

With respect to the poolish question, the way that I prepare my poolish is to mix the yeast (if IDY) directly in with the poolish flour, add the poolish water to a bowl, and gradually mix in the flour/IDY mix. If the amount of the poolish is small, I just use a plastic or other mixing bowl and either whisk in the flour/IDY or use a sturdy wooden spoon to mix everything. I add the flour/IDY gradually so that the flour is hydrated more effectively. For a much larger amount of poolish that can't easily be done as I just described, I would use a stand mixer, using the flat beater attachment at low speed. If I am using ADY instead of IDY, I use a portion of the poolish water at around 105 degrees F and rehydrate the ADY for about 10 minutes. It can then be added to the rest of the poolish water in the bowl.

In my view, one of the most significant factors that comes into play with poolish and that one must deal with effectively to achieve the desired results is temperature. In my opinion, that is the biggest elephant in the room. If the room where the poolish is to preferment is cool, as is very often the case in winter, even in Texas where I am, then it will take considerably longer for the poolish to reach the same stage as it would in a warmer room. Even if one uses very warm water to make the poolish to speed up the prefermentation process, that water shouldn't be so warm as to harm the yeast, say, above around 120-130 degrees F. But even with the poolish water at 120-130 degrees F, the poolish will cool down and approach room temperature over time. As an example based on my experience, a poolish using water at around 105 degrees F and starting out at around 82 degrees F (finished poolish temperature) and subjected to a room temperature of around 65 degrees F, will drop to about 72 degrees F in the course of an hour. It will drop to around 67 degrees F after 4 hours. Under these conditions, you are not likely to see a lot of bubbles in the poolish. If the poolish also happens to be cool at the time of the final mix, then that will slow down the rest of the fermentation process also unless other steps are taken to try to compensate for the cooling effects of the poolish. The only way to get around the issue of temperature without changing other parameters is to use a proofing box or some equivalent. In your case, it might be your Hatco unit.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on February 15, 2010, 06:27:33 PM
Peter,

Thank you for explaining how you mix the poolish.  I can understand how you are explaining getting the poolish to bubble at different room temperatures.  Since market temperatures do vary greatly, there are those problems.  I have been using the disk heater and it seems to be doing well with the poolish, but since this poolish is only a small amount, hopefully when I get the Hatco merchandiser over to market, I will be able to test how the poolish works in that.  I think the Hatco merchandiser is a good piece of equipment and I had bought from craigslist at a Kentucky Fried Chicken place.  It seems like they had so much equipment they didnít use.  I only paid 125.00 for it and had planned on keeping the wings I made to display.  Since the wings didnít work out, I had an extra piece of equipment.  Maybe it will work for the poolish.  Since it is also humidified if wanted, do you think there would be any advantage to using that?  I think it would act something like a sauna. 
The poolish I made at market on Friday took about 3 hours to bubble enough. I did add water that was 120 degrees F.  I didnít need to add any extra flour today, so something must have been wrong with my measurements last week.  I added two pictures from today.  The one shows the finished dough temperature.  The other shows the finished dough ball and behind it can be seen what the temperature at market was today. 
                  
Thanks for saying you hope things work out well with my mother.  I didnít have time to make my regular dough today and am not sure if I am going to market tomorrow.  I did bring the dough home today that was for the 5 test doughs.  If I donít go to market tomorrow I will try one dough ball at home and freeze the other four.  At least they will have some time to cold ferment.

If the weather isnít too bad tomorrow, I might need to make an emergency dough.
                                 
Thanks,

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on February 15, 2010, 07:31:11 PM
Norma,

Over the last few days I conducted a Lehmann/poolish experiment. I am scheduled to be out of town for a few days so I can't provide all of the details now but I plan to provide more detail when I return, quite possibly at the Lehmann thread. However, I used the same Lehmann dough formulation you have been using for your poolish experiments but with several modifications on the poolish side. To summarize, I subjected as much of the total formula flour to the prefermentation process as possible while staying within the classic definition of a poolish, I prefermented the poolish strictly at my local room temperature (which is in the 60s), I added a heavy dose of diastatic malt (considerably above the recommended amount), and I fermented the final dough into which the poolish was incorporated for about 48 hours in my refrigerator. The dough remained at a cool temperature during tempering (again in the 60s), following which it was shaped into a skin, dressed and baked. The photo below is representative of the finished pizza. I thought the pizza turned out quite well but I believe there is room for improvement based on what I learned from the experiment.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on February 15, 2010, 07:53:32 PM
Peter,

Wow..your pizza looks delicious!  ;D  I think you are really on to something great with your ideas for preferments with the Lehmann dough.  I would be interested in the taste of your crust.  I see you have added the diastatic malt.  Since you prefermented the poolish strictly at room temperature and it was cool, how long did your poolish take to bubble?  I will await your details.  They should really be interesting. 

Thanks,

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on February 15, 2010, 08:21:26 PM
Norma,

Thank you.

Although I used warm water at around 105 degrees F to prepare the poolish, I knew that I shouldn't expect much bubbling after a few hours at my room temperature this time of year. In my case, the poolish prefermented at a room temperature of around 65 degrees F for four hours, during which time the temperature of the poolish dropped in the direction of the room temperature. Rather than letting it work longer, I decided instead to put the poolish into my refrigerator for further development. I didn't mention it earlier, but I held the poolish in my refrigerator for 3 days. During that time, there was volume expansion of the poolish and a few more bubbles but not in great profusion. The photo below shows the poolish after the four hour prefermentation period. I did not take a photo of the poolish at the point where I took it out of the refrigerator to incorporate into the final mix.

I did the "cool" poolish experiment to see how much it penalizes the final crust. There is a penalty in my opinion, mainly in terms of crust flavor. I think "warm" is the better way to go.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on February 15, 2010, 08:51:16 PM

I did the "cool" poolish experiment to see how much it penalizes the final crust. There is a penalty in my opinion, mainly in terms of crust flavor. I think "warm" is the better way to go.

Peter

Peter,

Each time before I mixed the poolish into the final dough, I let the poolish in front of the disk heater while I was mixing dough or doing other things.  The poolish did bubble more in that amount of time. I was worried maybe the poolish would start to fall, but it never got to that point. 
I will see what you post later about your experiment with the preferment with your poolish and your final dough formulas.
Thanks for posting the picture of how your poolish looked. It's also good to see you tried out your idea.  :)

Thanks,

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Glutenboy on February 15, 2010, 10:42:21 PM
Peter -

The lovely browning is matched only by your perfect pepperoni coverage.  ;D  Seriously, that's a really nice golden brown.  Flavorful?
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: TXCraig1 on February 15, 2010, 11:13:25 PM
Norma,

I've been getting some pretty good results using a preferment with the method I described here: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10237.0.html It generally bakes up nicely, and I've been very happy with the flavor and texture - some spurious results, but I'm learning.

I've been using Ischia culture in the preferment (I'll use the word "preferment" to make sure I don't incorrectly use the word "poolish." I can't say I'm fully fluent in the technical specifications of the different varieties, but I'm fascinated by this and like you trying to learn more). I see no reason why this method couldn't be easily adapted to IDY/ADY.  I use water straight out of the tap (RO filtration) which is usually mid-60's. My room temperature is usually around 72F but it's been bloody cold here recently (40F outside - 68F room temp), and I can definitely see a reduction in activity. In addition to experimenting with increased culture % to combat the cold, I've been putting my preferment in the the oven with the light on (90F) for ~4 hours before mixing the final dough. The increase in activity during that time is very noticeable. I can't say I can tell much difference in the final product between the preferment at 24 hours at 72F and that at 20 hours at 68F with the bump up to 90F for the final 4 hours. In fact, I've had some unpredictable results from both - most noteably in terms of speed the final dough rises at a constant temperature, and the extensibility of the final dough.

The preferment makes up about 25% of the total dough by weight. This is the result of trying to replicate the UPN dough from the videos, however, I have done some experimentation with taking the % up higher, and I was not happy with the results. I didn't care for the feel of the final dough. I didn't care for how it handled - less extensible, more prone to having thin spots when opened, and I thought it was tougher and more bread-like when baked. Perhaps this is a function of the sourdough yeast and results with commercial results would be different. I'll be excited to see what you learn.

Below are a couple pictures of my preferment just before incorporating into the final dough and some recent pies made with this method.

Craig
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on February 16, 2010, 06:28:06 AM
TXCraig1,

In reverse engineering UPN Dough, are you still using a piece of old dough to add to your preferment and then final dough? With using a high heat and the way you are making your dough, I see how great results you have achieved.

Itís great to see how you are experimenting and getting to know you dough with each step you take.  Your idea of putting the preferment in the oven in a cooler room is good.

I also am on the learning curve and learn something new each time I try something different.  When I watch as each pie is made, dressed and then baked, each step can contribute to different results.  I am sure I never will stop learning and wonít have the equipment to try some of the ideas of other people, but I enjoy watching and learning from them. I am just learning more about starters and preferments and it is very interesting what they can do.  As you can see in this thread, there are some doughs I sure didnít like, but with each step there is something new learned. When I try to compare some of my pies made at market and then at home, there is a big difference.  I need to learn more about making pies at home.  Where I really have a problem is with my math..lol, but that isnít going to stop me from trying.

I have seen you BBQ modification and see the amazing pictures of your pizzas.  In your talking about what you have done to modify your BBQ grill and the high temperatures you are achieving, that is really great! 

Thanks for sharing your pictures of your preferment and pizzas.  You are doing a fantastic job!  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: TXCraig1 on February 16, 2010, 07:57:22 AM
Norma,

If I ever got to the point where I made pizza every day (I can dream can't I?), I would use the old dough method I discussed. It made by far the most flavorful pizzas I've ever made. Now, I'm trying to duplicate the flavor without having to have old dough. So far not so much luck. I've been experimenting with 48 hour preferments and I'm not pleased with my results so far. I'm looking at various salt levels in 48 hour preferments now.

Thank you for you other kind words.

Craig
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on February 16, 2010, 09:07:21 AM
Peter -

The lovely browning is matched only by your perfect pepperoni coverage.  ;D  Seriously, that's a really nice golden brown.  Flavorful?

Glutenboy,

The crust browning was actually a different "browning" than what I normally achieve with the basic Lehmann NY style. It was more "golden", with more of a bread appearance. Craig mentioned that he used his preferment at 25% of the total dough weight. Mine used all of the formula water, plus an equal weight of flour, and it represented almost 74% of the total dough weight. That was intentional because I wanted to see what I would get if I subjected the maximum amount of flour to the prefermentation of the poolish. As a result, my crust had more of the attributes of a baked bread than a pizza crust. I think I would be inclined to agree with Craig that the 74% figure is too high. Like Craig, I, too, experienced an increase in elasticity. I wondered about this since the acids of preferments are supposed to strengthen the final dough. In Norma's case, she did not experience that, as her videos demonstrated. I did. However, my dough was very robust and not difficult to open up, and I did not develop thin spots or webbing, albeit the dough was more elastic than what I normally experience.

From the standpoint of crust flavor, it was flavorful but not great. I somewhat anticipated this result because of the cool prefermentation of the poolish, both before and during refrigeration. That was also intentional because I wanted to see if such a regimen was workable and to what extent. I was especially mindful of Norma's restrictions at market where she would most likely not be permitted to make a poolish at home and bring it to market for the final mix. That alone could rule out a lot of possibilities. Maybe Norma's Hatco unit will solve this problem, and thereby avoid the need to use some kind of proofing unit, but that remains to be seen.

This "cool" poolish test pretty much convinced me that you need a lot of prefermentation activity in order to develop the byproducts of fermentation that are responsible for crust flavor. In my experiment, the dough doubled by the time I decided to use it (based on the poppy seed method I used). The dough was still firm to the touch, and I seriously entertained the thought of leaving the dough in the refrigerator until I returned from my planned trip. However, I didn't want to lose the results of my test up to that point so I completed the pizza at that time. But I do believe that the dough could have held out much longer and, as a result, might have produced more byproducts of fermentation to provide more crust flavor. It would have been like a preferment version of your now famous quasi-geriatric dough.

The pepperoni coverage comes from all of my Papa John's clones where I tried to fit over 40 pepperoni slices on a 14" pizza ;D. Essentially the whole pizza is covered with almost no space between slices. They shrink a bit during baking, thus creating a bit of space between them. But they don't slide all over the pizza due to cheese upheaval during baking as can happen when you use a lot less slices.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: TXCraig1 on February 16, 2010, 10:06:59 AM
Like Craig, I, too, experienced an increase in elasticity. I wondered about this since the acids of preferments are supposed to strengthen the final dough.

My recent, more acidified doughs have been less elastic as you would expect. This weekend, I made two identical batches except that I let one preferment go for 24 hours and the other for 48. The 48 was noticeably less elastic and baked up more bread-like in appearance. I'm actually not surprised by the increased elasticity of your dough. Several years ago, I also experimented with various preferments that went up to 100% of the formula water and up to 100% hydration. As the preferment% of total dough and hydration% increased, I saw decreasing elasticity up to a point then it began to increase up to the point where the dough would actually just fall apart like the gluten had been completely denatured. I unscientifically attributed this to the level of acids and the enzymes. I assumed that at low levels, they strengthened the dough but at some point they became concentrated enough that they simply started to dissolve it. I have only experimented with San Francisco and Ischia cultures - no commercial yeast. I suspect this is why my high preferment % dough were far weaker than yours - to the point where they were completely nonfunctional where you could still make a nice pie. In my old tests, I never went as low as 25% preferment/final dough. It was not until I started studying the UPN videos that I moved it that direction, and my results are better.

Craig
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on February 16, 2010, 12:35:23 PM

If I ever got to the point where I made pizza every day (I can dream can't I?)

Craig,

LOL in saying you can dream of making pizza everyday.  :-D  Best of luck to you in duplicating the flavor of the old dough with other experiments.  I will be watching your posts to see if you are obtaining the results you are looking for. You have already tried many experiments, and I believe in time, you will succeed.  :)

Thanks,

Norma

Peter,

It is interesting to hear about your experiments with the preferment and the conclusions you formed from using a different formula.  Since I didnít go to market today, I am going to let at least one of the dough balls ferment for more than one day to see what happens.  I might try different things with other 4 dough balls.  At least that way I might see how these 5 dough balls are different in times of fermentation and also in freezing. 

Thanks,

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: briterian on February 16, 2010, 03:59:47 PM
Nice thread. A lot here to absorb.  Quick question.  There isn't much mention of the mixing process after the poolish is added with the other ingredients. Is it safe to just follow this recipe: http://www.pizzamaking.com/lehmann_nystyle.php for those steps?

I have bakers pride M02t oven.  What temp and how long would you recommend?  Can't wait to try this and compare it to JerryMac's recipe - which I have to admit is easier since one can do it all in one day.

Also, is post 149 still the most accurate recipe for me to use for the preferrment tom lehmann recipe?
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on February 16, 2010, 06:11:55 PM
briterian,

Thanks for saying you think this is a nice thread.  As for the mixing instructions I usually use they are about the same as the link you gave, but I only mix the dough in my 20 quart Hobart Mixer until my dough is fully incorporated. The dough will look like this link.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg90273.html#msg90273 ( I can't get this link to work )  It is reply 228 that shows the dough that was just mixed. The mixing time is about 4 to 5 minutes.  This is only for making the test 5 dough balls I have been doing.  I havenít tried a bigger batch as of this date.  I am waiting to get my Hatco Merchandiser to market and then I might know more about making a bigger batch of 15 lbs. 

Peter gave this formula for a single dough ball at this link for the poolish, preferment and final dough.  You could scale this up if you want.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg90226.html#msg90226
                              
This is the formula for the test 5 dough balls. I am not sure what you regularly use as a thickness factor.
5 dough balls at Thickness Factor of 0.08932 at hydration of 61%.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg88687.html#msg88687

I have a Bakerís Pride GP-61 double stack counter top oven that is propane gas.  I keep the temperature between 525-550 degrees F.

If I have made mistakes in answering your questions, I will let Peter straighten out anything I might have missed.  This formula for the poolish, 3 days ferment of the poolish, and final formula were Peter's idea and he did the math calculations and instructions for mixing of the preferment poolish and final dough mix.

I have never tried Jerry Mac's recipe, so I donít have anything to compare his recipe to this one.  I will have to try his recipe someday.

I find this dough nice and soft, easy to work with, and in my opinion has a better taste to the crust than a regular Lehmann dough. 

Any other questions..just ask.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on February 18, 2010, 04:37:33 PM
These are two of the dough balls from the final mix on Monday from the preferment with the poolish.  They have been in my refrigerator since then.  I was going to make one pizza out of one of them today, but decided since they didnít look like either one of them was over fermenting, I would just let them cold ferment some more.  I did put three dough balls in the freezer today.  All five dough balls looked the same. 
I turned the one bowl over and there are some small bubbles on the bottom of the dough ball.
I also bought some Diastatic Malt Powder. 
I didnít get my Hatco Merchandiser over to market as of today.  There is still much snow that needs to be shoveled around the back.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on February 19, 2010, 10:55:04 AM
Peter,

If you have time before Monday could you advise me on what amount of Diastatic Malt Powder I could try on a test batch of 5 dough balls. The the Diastactic Malt Powder would be added in the final dough on Monday.  I have read what Didier Rosada recommends, but am not sure if I should start at the high end or low end.  I just want to see if this makes a difference since I am experimenting and this coming week they are calling for more snow.

During the pre-fermentation time, the yeast uses up a lot of the flourís sugar, especially during long fermentation time at room temperature. When this portion of flour is added back to the final dough, the overall quantity of fermentiscibles sugar is lower than what is usually available for the yeast in a straight dough method. As a result of the lower availability of sugar, it is difficult to obtain satisfactory coloration of the crust. This defect is sometimes noticeable when a high percentage of overnight poolish or sponge is used in the final dough or when the enzyme activity of the flour is on the low side. To troubleshoot this problem, 0.5% to 1% of diastatic malt (based on the total flour) can be added to the final dough.

Thanks,

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on February 19, 2010, 12:53:36 PM
Norma,

I assume that you are using the Lehmann poolish dough formulation at Reply 149 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg88687.html#msg88687. If so, there may not be a great need to use diastatic malt, or much of it, since your poolish has not been subjected to overly long periods of room temperature fermentation, especially at warm room temperatures. In my last experiment, I used a lot of diastatic malt. That was intentional since I wanted its possible effects to be dramatic. In the past where I have used more modest amounts, I could not readily see the effects of the use of the diastatic malt. I am away from home and don't have access to my notes but my recollection id that I used the diastatic malt at around 1.25% of the total formula flour. That turned out to produce dramatic effects, in the form of a "gummy" like crust in parts. That is one of the known effects of using too much diastatic malt. However, it did not adversely affect the eating experience. In fact, some people actually like that gummy effect. Now I know how to tell people how to achieve that effect if they desire it :-D.

In my case, I used the Bob's Red Mill diastatic malt. The conversion data for that brand of diastatic malt was originally used in the expanded dough calculating tool. However, as I previously noted elsewhere on the forum, the conversion data in that tool is off by a factor of ten on the low side (due to an error in entering the conversion data in the tool). However, the conversion data for the Bob's Red Mill diastatic malt is one teaspoon is 0.0881834 ounces. That is based on one teaspoon weighing 2.5 grams (30 grams for 1/4 cup). I did a quick check at the King Arthur website at http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/items/diastatic-malt-powder-16-oz and the conversion data shown there is one teaspoon weighs 2 grams. So, the conversion data is one teaspoon weighs 0.0705467 ounce.

In your case, if you want to experiment with the King Arthur diastatic malt, I think I would try 0.75%. For the dough formulation in Reply 149 referenced above, with 54.7 ounces of KASL, that would be 0.41025 ounces of diastatic malt, or 5.81 teaspoons, or a bit more than 5 3/4 t. For the sake of simplicity at this point, I would just add that amount to your regular Lehmann poolish dough formulation (as part of the final mix) without trying to adjust the amounts of the rest of the ingredients, as you would if you used the expanded dough calculating tool. Adding about 0.41 ounces of diastatic malt to a dough batch weighing 5.61 pounds isn't going to have much effect on the weights of the other ingredients.

Good luck.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on February 19, 2010, 07:00:55 PM
Peter,
                                 
Yes, I am using the Lehmann poolish dough formulation at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg88687.html#msg88687
I will experiment with this batch of the Lehmann poolish dough formulation to see if there are any different results, until I get the Hatco Merchandiser to market.  I will use the 0.41025 ounces of diastatic malt and add to the final mix.
 
Good to hear with your experiment of using higher diastatic malt you can tell someone how to get that gummy effect if they want it.  ::)  Wonder who wants those results.  ???

Thanks for your advise and telling me I probably wouldnít need to add the diastatic malt.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on February 19, 2010, 08:25:56 PM
I made a pizza tonight out of the Lehmann preferment poolish dough that was made Monday.  I made this pizza at home.  This dough was left in the fridge since Monday and didnít look like it was over fermenting.  I left the dough warm up for 2 hours at 70 degrees F.  After that amount of time the dough was starting to develop bubbles.  I compared the dough left out for 2 hours to the dough still cold fermenting in the fridge.  The dough still cold fermenting in the fridge still doesnít show signs of over fermenting.  The dough still was easy to open, but my peel I have here at home isnít the same size I have at market.
I dressed the pie with cheese and pepperoni.  The pie was baked in my home oven.  The temperature of my home oven doesn't go much over 450 degrees F.  I can see a difference in how my home oven bakes compared to my oven at market.
I can't compare the taste of the crust to the other poolish preferments of Lehmann doughs I have tried in the past, because I have a cold and can't taste anything.   :-\  Wish I could because this dough was cold fermented 3 days longer.
At least I am learning to make more pies here at home.  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on February 19, 2010, 08:27:28 PM
rest of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: hotsawce on February 19, 2010, 10:22:41 PM
TXCraig; couldn't your oven spring also be affected by the heat you're utilizing? I know you have that BBQ mod, so I'd like to see the crumb in a normal oven at 550 if you get a chance.
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on February 21, 2010, 07:07:27 PM
Peter,

Wow..you really outdid yourself with this formula with the preferment with poolish for the Lehmann dough.  Superb in my opinion!!  :)

I made a pizza tonight using the dough ball that was leftover.  It looked like it was starting to overferment this afternoon and had a big bubble as seen in the picture.  I decided to use the dough today.  I decided to do something different with this dough ball.  I used my 12" deep dish pan after I opened the dough.  There still wasnít any problems with opening the dough, but I didn't let it out of the refrigerator more than a half hour.  The pan with oiled with Crisco. 
The dressing on this pie was different.  I used cherry tomatoes, Panko seasoned bread crumbs, 2 garlic cloves, 1 shallot, 2 tablespoons of olive oil, fresh ground black pepper and sea salt.  They were then mixed together and put on the middle rack of the oven and broiled for about 6 minutes.  The dough was then dressed with olive oil, fresh pesto, mozzarella, and the mixture that was broiled.
The pizza was baked in the deep-dish pan on the middle rack of the oven until the bottom looked finished.
I was pleasantly surprised when I tasted the pie.  It was more like a Sicilian, but of all the Sicilians I have tried before, this was the best.  The bottom crust had some crunch and the pie was so easy to chew.  I really liked the taste of this pie better than all the Sicilian recipes I had tried before.  Some of the Sicilianís I had made were more airy, but this pie was much more light and I really like that..

I donít know if I would get the same results if I tried to do this at market, but will have to try, maybe by putting a screen on the bottom of the deep-dish pan before putting on the hearth.

Thanks again,

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on February 21, 2010, 07:08:43 PM
rest of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on February 22, 2010, 01:02:19 PM
Norma,

How old was the dough ball that you used with your deep dish pan? About six days??

The Lehmann NY style dough formulation is actually quite versatile and can be modified for other types of pizzas. For example, I once modified the Lehmann recipe just slightly to make a Greek/pub style pizza. If you use a greater thickness factor along the lines of a standard Sicilian style pizza, maybe something in the range of 0.125-0.14, you might be able to come up with a pretty good Sicilian style pizza. Of course, that would mean having to re-do the numbers. Or you can use the same dough formulation as you have been using but just calculate the amount of dough to fit your 12" deep-dish pan and carve that amount out of your total dough batch. Obviously, you have better control of batch size by re-doing the numbers to fit your precise application.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on February 22, 2010, 03:48:15 PM
Norma,

I have set forth below the dough formulation I used recently to make a poolish-based Lehmann dough formulation with the diastatic malt. This is the formulation on which I commented earlier at Replies 229, 231 and 237, starting at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg90277.html#msg90277.

Normally, I donít change more than one variable at a time. However, on occasion I will do so either for fun or to test my analytical skills. For the latest experiment, I was trying to test several things. First, I wanted to try a ďcoolĒ poolish that prefermented at the room temperature then prevailing in my kitchen (around 65 degrees F). That meant not using any temperature control, as one might get from using a proofing box or a unit such as the ThermoKool MR-132. Second, I wanted to subject as much of the flour as possible to the prefermentation process while keeping the hydration of the preferment at 100%. So, for this particular test, I used all of the formula water and an equal weight of flour. Third, I wanted to try using some diastatic malt. I intentionally used more diastatic malt than normally recommended to test what might be a suitable outer limit of use for that ingredient. In my case, I used 1.30% of the total formula flour. Finally, I used a blend of King Arthur bread flour and vital wheat gluten (Hogsdon Mill brand) to achieve a total protein content equal to that of a high-gluten flour. I used the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at http://foodsim.toastguard.com/ to do the apportionment between the KABF and the VWG.

The dough formulation I ended up with, for a single 14Ē pizza and using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html, is as follows:

Total Lehmann NY Style Dough Formulation
KABF/VWG Flour Blend* (100%):
Water (61%):
IDY (0.40%):
Salt (1.75%):
Olive Oil (1%):
Diastatic Malt Powder** (1.30%):
Total (165.45%):
236.76 g  |  8.35 oz | 0.52 lbs
144.43 g  |  5.09 oz | 0.32 lbs
0.95 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.31 tsp | 0.1 tbsp
4.14 g | 0.15 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.74 tsp | 0.25 tbsp
2.37 g | 0.08 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.53 tsp | 0.18 tbsp
3.08 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.25 tsp | 0.42 tbsp
391.73 g | 13.82 oz | 0.86 lbs | TF = 0.08976
* The KABF/VWG Flour Blend comprises 230.17 grams (8.12 oz.) KABF and 6.59 grams (0.23 oz.) Hodgson Mill VWG (approx. 2 ľ t.)
** Diastatic malt volume measurements increased by ten times the dough calculating tool values (to correct for an error in the tool)
Note: Nominal thickness factor = 0.088; dough is for a single 14Ē pizza; bowl residue compensation = 2%

Preferment (Poolish)
KABF/VWG Flour Blend (100%):
Water (100%):
IDY (0.30%):
Total (200.3%):
144.3 g  |  5.09 oz | 0.32 lbs
144.3 g  |  5.09 oz | 0.32 lbs
0.43 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.14 tsp | 0.05 tbsp
289.04 g | 10.2 oz | 0.64 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: Poolish represents about 73.8% of the total dough weight and utilizes all of the total formula water; 0.14 t. IDY is 1/8 t. + a bit more than 1/64 t. (the ďpinchĒ mini-measuring spoon)

Final Mix
Poolish (from above):                                       289.04 g | 10.2 oz | 0.64 lbs
Remaining KABF/VWG Flour Blend (100%):
Remaining IDY (0.45184%):
Total Formula Salt (4.60122%):
Total Formula Olive Oil (2.45398%):
Total Formula Diastatic Malt Powder (3.37423%):
92.42 g  |  3.26 oz | 0.2 lbs
0.42 g | 0.01 oz | 0 lbs | 0.14 tsp | 0.05 tbsp
4.25 g | 0.15 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.76 tsp | 0.25 tbsp
2.27 g | 0.08 oz | 0 lbs | 0.5 tsp | 0.17 tbsp
3.12 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.25 tsp | 0.42 tbsp
Total Dough Batch Weight:                               391.73 g | 13.82 oz | 0.86 lbs
Note: 0.14 t. IDY is 1/8 t. + a bit more than 1/64 t.

I prepared the poolish preferment in a bowl using a sturdy wooden spoon. In preparing the poolish preferment, I used water at a room temperature of around 105 degrees F. The finished poolish temperature was 82.4 degrees F. The poolish prefermented at a room temperature of around 65 degrees F for about 4 hours. As previously noted in an earlier post in this thread, there was little noticeable bubbling. By the time the poolish was placed into the refrigerator, the poolish temperature had dropped from 82.4 degrees F to about 66.9 degrees F. The poolish remained in the refrigerator for 71 hours, or one hour shy of three days. For that one hour, I let the poolish warm up at a room temperature of 66 degrees F. I then completed the Final Mix by combining the poolish with the remaining flour, the remaining IDY, and the total formula salt, oil and diastatic malt. I used the flat beater attachment of my basic KitchenAid stand mixer, at stir speed, to bring the ingredients together initially, for about a minute or two, and then switched to the C-hook for a knead, at speed 2, for about 5 minutes. I placed two poppy seeds on the dough ball, which I had lightly oiled, and placed the dough in the refrigerator. The poppy seed method is described at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6914.0.html.

The dough remained in the refrigerator for about 47 hours. At that point, the increased spacing of the poppy seeds suggested a doubling of the dough, but the dough was still firm to the touch and looked like it could have gone a few days more, possibly even several days more. After a roughly two-hour warm-up at a room temperature of about 65 degrees F, I opened up the dough ball to form a 14Ē skin. The dough exhibited some elasticity but the skin was very robust without any tendency to form thin spots or webbing. With periodic rests of 30 seconds or so, I was able to form the skin to 14Ē with little difficulty. Clearly, the large quantity of poolish relative to the total dough weight (about 73.8%) contributed significantly to the strength of the dough. This leads me to believe that using a smaller quantity of poolish is perhaps a better approach to achieve a better balance between elasticity and extensibility. Extending the fermentation time might also help in achieving this outcome. After dressing the skin in a basic pepperoni style, I baked the pizza on a pizza stone that had been placed on the lowest oven rack position and preheated for about an hour at around 525 degrees F. The total bake time was around 7-8 minutes.

The photos below show the finished pizza. As noted previously in an earlier post in this thread, the crust flavor was good but not great. That leads me to believe that a ďcoolĒ poolish is not the optimum method for achieving the best crust flavors. The finished crust and crumb also had doughy or ďgummyĒ sections. That did not detract from the eating experience but, at 1.30% diastatic malt, one might reasonably expect that result since that is a well-known outcome when using high levels of that ingredient. In my case, especially with the cool poolish approach and with the small amount of IDY, followed by further cold fermentation, it is possible that no diastatic malt was needed. As noted earlier in this thread, the crust color was more golden than anything else, with a bread-like appearance.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on February 22, 2010, 03:51:23 PM
A couple more photos....

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on February 22, 2010, 05:31:09 PM
Peter,

The dough ball I used in reply 249 & 250 was six days old.  I can now see how versatile the dough with the preferment is after trying this recent pie in the deep-dish pan.  I donít know if the longer fermentation time had anything to do with the taste, but I really enjoyed this pie.  The crust in my opinion was easy to chew, lighter, how more crust flavor, and was more enjoyable than the other Sicilian pies I had made with or without the natural starters.  I will have to try the dough at market and see if that oven bakes this dough the same in a Sicilian Pie.  I do want to be able to sell some kind of Sicilian Pie at market at some point.  Hopefully this works out at market. 

Was your Greek/pub style pizza a Sicilian pizza?  If so, how did you think the Lehmann dough worked out for use in this style of pizza?

The dough formulation for the poolish-based Lehmann dough you tried sure sounds complicated to be able to figure out.  If anyone wants to try out your formula, you surely set-forth  good directions.  It sure would be great to have your analytical skills in trying out new ideas.

It is interesting to hear you thought by using a smaller quantity of poolish is perhaps a better approach to achieve a better balance between elasticity and extensibility.  I also wonder about longer fermentation times after letting this recent dough ball ferment for longer.  I didnít expect this recent dough ball to last that long before starting to overferment.

When you are talking about probably not needing the diastatic malt because of the cool poolish approach and with the small amount of IDY, followed by the cold fermentation, I just wanted to let you know I did add the diastatic malt today for the 5 test dough balls.  I will see what kind of results there are tomorrow.

If you now think a cool poolish doesnít help you to achieve the best crust flavors, what do you have in mind to try next?

The pictures of your pizza look very tasty.  :)  Good to hear how you went about you most recent experiment.

Thanks for going over your experiment and also in helping with this preferment for the Lehmann dough,

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on February 22, 2010, 06:30:25 PM
Norma,

There is no reason why a poolish-based dough can't have a long useful life. One of our members, MWTC, described poolish-based doughs/pizzas at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4625.0.html and was able to achieve dough lives of 12 days or more, so, I knew that long dough lives were possible using a poolish-based dough. What was less certain is whether such a method might be scaled up to commercial dough batch sizes. That might also be an issue for you once you decide to scale up your five dough ball formulation to a much larger dough batch size.

The Greek/pub style pizza that I made using a modified Lehmann NY style dough formulation is described at Reply 20 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,691.msg27482.html#msg27482. I can see that that pizza has some characteristics of the Sicilian style but it is never referred to as a Sicilian style. The Greek style of pizza tends to be a Northeast U.S. pizza.

I don't see any reason why you can't use your poolish-based Lehmann dough to make a rectangular/square Sicilian-style pizza. That experience might also tell you whether you should consider modifying the Lehmann dough formulation to be more like a Sicilian dough.

I assume that your use of the diastatic malt was in accordance with Reply 244 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg90586.html#msg90586. If so, it will be interesting to hear of your results.

The diastatic malt experiment I posted perhaps seems more complicated than it really is. There are just a lot of moving parts math-wise. I elaborated on the various steps mainly to instruct people on what they might expect if they do similar things as I did. That might lead them to take measures that will produce better results. If I were to continue to use the poolish method, I think I would use my proofing box or MR-132 unit to better control the temperatures during the prefermentation period. That would be for a winter dough. In the summer, I could preferment the poolish at room temperature. I think I would also scale back the amount of poolish.

Peter


Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on February 22, 2010, 07:42:17 PM
Peter,

Thanks for the link to MWTCís experiments with the poolish. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4625.0.html   It is interesting to hear how MWTC got the information from Bev Collins, who worked in the test kitchens for Domino's Pizza.  Do you think MWTC achieved this longer fermentation because of using some sugar in the final mix and also from achieving a low (70 degree F), final dough temperature? It is also interesting to read how Bev Collins believed slower fermentation and cooler temperature would create better flavors. Fifteen days fermentation is a long time.

I also see the concern when stepping up the batch for larger quantities.  I will have to address that after I get to try the Hatco Merchandiser. 

Your Greek/pub style pizza thread was interesting.  I have never tried that style of pizza, so I canít compare it to the poolish preferment.  The Greek/pub style pizza does sound very good and I see you obtained great results when trying this pie. .http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,691.0.html

You are correct in the link in reply 244.  I used the amount of 0.41025 ounces of diastatic malt in the 5 test dough balls made, today. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg90586.html#msg90586

Thanks for the links and additional information,

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on February 22, 2010, 08:12:41 PM
Norma,

I have studied the MWTC thread several times at different stages of my poolish "education" and have yet to nail down how and why MWTC got the results he did. I could understand the results from the standpoint of keeping things cold and achieving a low finished dough temperature but the sugar part hasn't computed. As you know, I have made doughs that have lasted for up to a few weeks (in the refrigerator) without any sugar added to the dough so in my mind that minimizes the impact of sugar on dough longevity. Sometimes the answers come to me when I actually try out a dough and can see for myself what is going on. I haven't done that with MWTC's recipe.

I believe that Bev Collins's suggestion to cool things down to get more finished crust flavor was not anything new to most of the members of this forum who practice long cold fermentations. However, since she worked for Domino's, which had to be able to supply dough balls to their stores twice a week, she undoubtedly was fully aware of the ways to keep the dough balls cool so that they wouldn't overferment before the next delivery.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on February 23, 2010, 09:59:51 PM
I tried the Sicilian style with the poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough.  I first spread the dough with my fingers in a 12" deep-dish pan.  I did oil the pan with olive oil, before spreading.  I topped the dough with more olive oil.  I covered the pan with saran wrap and let the pan sit about an hour and a half.
 
This pies was dressed with some oregano, Italian seasoning, mozzarella and then sauce.

The pie was baked in the deep-dish that was placed on a screen.

I think this dough works out well for a Sicilian Pie.  I will have to some more experimenting with this.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on February 23, 2010, 10:11:09 PM
I also tried out the other four remaining test dough balls that had 0.41025 ounces of diastatic malt added.  These are the pictures of the finished pizzas with the added diastatic malt with the poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough.
The other dough ball was used for the Sicilian style pizza. 

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on February 23, 2010, 10:43:08 PM
Norma,

Can you refresh my memory on the timeline for the dough and pizzas using the poolish and diastatic malt? That is, what was the protocol/times for the poolish, the final mix, cold fermentation, etc.?

Also, did you detect any differences between the crusts with the diastatic malt and without it?

And how did the pizzas with the diastatic malt taste?

I assume that all of the pizzas, including the Sicilian-style pizza in the deep-dish pan, were baked at market. Is that correct?

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on February 23, 2010, 11:05:40 PM
Peter,

The poolish was made last Friday at market and then left in the deli case until Monday.  I then incorporated the poolish into the final dough along with the diastatic malt on Monday.  The poolish preferment Lehmann dough was left to cold ferment until today.

In my opinion the crusts with the diastatic malt seemed to have more browning when baked.  I am always fiddling around with the temperature of my oven in 25 degree increments, so I am not sure if it was the diastatic malt or my oven temperature. 

The pizzas made with the diastatic malt tasted good, but I canít say I noticed a big difference.  I did have two customers that bought the pizza tell me that was the best crust they ever tasted.  Who knows if this was the first pizza they bought from me or not.  I do have regular customers and they were not any of them. 

You are correct, the Sicilian and the other test dough balls were all made at market today. 

I am happy to be able to produce a Sicilian pizza from this same formula.  :)  I did just win (lol) some rectangular deep-dish pans on Ebay and am anxious to get them and see how they work.  More experimenting.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on February 23, 2010, 11:19:40 PM
Norma,

I can't say that I noticed a contribution to the crust flavor either because of the diastatic malt. I believe the major contribution of the diastatic malt is to crust coloration because of higher residual sugar levels. I think using nondiastatic malt is more likely to contribute to crust flavor, as well as color.

At least you didn't end up with a gummy dough using the diastatic malt so the percent you used appears to be a safe level.

Is your next experiment to be the use of the Hatco unit to preferment the poolish for a larger dough batch, or are you still unable to get the Hatco unit to market?

The latest pizzas look quite tasty. It looks like you are making steady progress.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on February 23, 2010, 11:31:10 PM
Peter,

If all goes well this week, I do plan on taking the Hatco Merchandiser to market to be able to test a larger batch of poolish.  They are calling for snow again this Thursday.  I will have to wait and see it the snow materializes.  I would either take the unit to market Thursday or Friday. 

What kind of numbers am I looking at for a larger batch of poolish?  Do I just takes 10 times the numbers for a 10 lb. batch of final dough to try?

Yes, it seems like steady progress.  Next will be the bigger test, to see if my Hatco Unit is able to make a larger batch of poolish.

Thanks for going over this,

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on February 23, 2010, 11:43:25 PM
What kind of numbers am I looking at for a larger batch of poolish?  Do I just takes 10 times the numbers for a 10 lb. batch of final dough to try?

Norma,

Is there a particular dough batch size or number of dough balls you would like to make? And would you be using diastatic malt?

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on February 23, 2010, 11:54:25 PM
Peter,

I usually use 15 lb. batches of dough in my mixer.  Sometimes if I need extra dough, but not a full batch, then I use 10 lb. batches of dough.  Numbers for 15 lb. of dough would probably be a good starting point.  No, I donít plan on using the diastatic malt, until I try out the poolish in the Hatco unit.

Thanks,

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: briterian on February 24, 2010, 10:32:22 AM
Made this recipe for the first time last night.  I made 5 dough balls and used 2 last night after a 1 day fridge ferment of the dough.  Prior to that I did a 2 day fridge ferment of the poolish. Pics are below.  We liked it but didn't love it.  I changed one thing and that is I cooked it at around 525 for about 8-9 min.  My wife likes a crunch when she bites into a crust and that didn't happen. I cooked it at a lower temp (and longer) hoping that might help. I did like the blistering I got on the rim. I was wondering if anyone had any tips on getting the bottom of the crust to 'crunch' when you bite into it.  Is this not the recipe that'd do that?  For the remaining three dough balls I was going to try to cook it at around 675 in my bakers pride and also try to place a screen on top of the stone and see if I can get some more air under it.  I also have thought of a two stage cook process.  Cook for 4 minutes - take out let cool and then put back in for 3 min but that seems like too much work.    Overall, the dough handled very nicely and had nice flavor. 

See pics:
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on February 24, 2010, 02:48:48 PM
briterian
I didnít have any problems with the crust being crunchy as you can see at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg90651.html#msg90651 baked at home in my oven at 450 degrees F and the crust baked at market in my Bakerís Pride GP-61 baked between 525-550 degrees F. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg91071.html#msg91071
Let me know what results you achieve when you try this poolish preferment with the Lehmann dough, again.  Could you tell me what current formula you are using, before this formula?  I didnít have any problems with the regular Lehmann dough being crunchy, either.  :-\
Hopefully someone can get this figured out for you.

Your pies look very tasty.  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on February 24, 2010, 02:58:37 PM
I usually use 15 lb. batches of dough in my mixer.  Sometimes if I need extra dough, but not a full batch, then I use 10 lb. batches of dough.  Numbers for 15 lb. of dough would probably be a good starting point.

Norma,

The poolish version of the Lehmann NY style dough formulation that you have been using for the five pizza dough batch is the one at Reply 149 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg88687.html#msg88687. The calculated weight of the dough produced using that formulation is 5.61 pounds. For a 15-pound dough batch you would have to multiply the numbers for the five pizza example by 15/5.61 = 2.674. However, the easier and better approach would be to just use the Dough Weight option of the expanded dough calculating tool, using 15 pounds as the desired dough batch weight (with a bowl residue compensation of 1.5%). Of course, you will have to go through carving up the basic dough formulation into the poolish part and the Final Mix part. If you need help with that, let me know.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on February 24, 2010, 03:16:40 PM
Norma,

The poolish version of the Lehmann NY style dough formulation that you have been using for the five pizza dough batch is the one at Reply 149 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg88687.html#msg88687. The calculated weight of the dough produced using that formulation is 5.61 pounds. For a 15-pound dough batch you would have to multiply the numbers for the five pizza example by 15/5.61 = 2.674. However, the easier and better approach would be to just use the Dough Weight option of the expanded dough calculating tool, using 15 pounds as the desired dough batch weight (with a bowl residue compensation of 1.5%). Of course, you will have to go through carving up the basic dough formulation into the poolish part and the Final Mix part. If you need help with that, let me know.

Peter




Peter,

I think I will just start with the number of dough balls I want to try the poolish preferment of the Lehmann dough. That way I wonít have to carve up the basic dough formulation into the poolish part and the final mix part.  I sure am not good with numbers and knowing how to do all of that. 

Thanks,

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on February 24, 2010, 03:44:08 PM
I think I will just start with the number of dough balls I want to try the poolish preferment of the Lehmann dough. That way I wonít have to carve up the basic dough formulation into the poolish part and the final mix part.

Norma,

How do you plan to do that? For example, will you just use the five pizza dough batch numbers, say, for a total of three times, to make 15 dough balls?

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: briterian on February 24, 2010, 03:54:56 PM
Hi Norma,
I used reply 149 for the recipe.  It was definitely good stuff but when you bite into didn't crunch within the internal section of the crust like it did within the outer crust area.  I'm doing another pie tonight and will let you know. I plan to back at 675 for 3 minutes and put a screen under it and back it another 2 and see how that turns out.  I hope that's a good idea since I think this dough can take the high heat since there is no sugar in it.
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on February 24, 2010, 04:25:59 PM
Peter,

I could either use the pizza batch numbers for 5 dough balls and take the numbers times 3 for 15 dough balls or take the single numbers for a single dough ball at reply 225 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg90226.html#msg90226 and take that times the number of dough balls, I want to try.

Norma

briterian,

In the pictures of your pizza it looks like the crust is thin.  What kind of thickness factor did you use when making these pizzas.  My pizza has a thickness factor of 0.08932.  I really donít know what you are experiencing is related to. 
When I use the pizza cutter to cut my pies, you can hear the crunch.  As can be seen on the pictures made in the bakerís pride oven, I do obtain char on the bottom crust.  I really donít know if the problems you are experiencing are related to oven temperature.  With my home oven and my oven at market, I have to adjust the times baked to try and achieve the same results.  At home my temperature doesnít go high enough to get a char.
It will be good to hear your results with a higher oven temperature.  That is something I have wanted to try for awhile, but never did.

What kind of hydration do you usually use when making your pies that do have more crunch?  I am not that experienced in trying different variables at this time.  I have only been making pizza for less than a year.

Thanks,

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on February 24, 2010, 05:37:27 PM
Norma,

Your approach should work but it may be prone to errors in execution if there are too many steps. To simplify this matter, and since you specified a 15-pound dough batch as a likely size dough batch for your commercial operations, I have set forth below the profile for such a dough batch.

Total Lehmann NY Style Dough Formulation (Dough Batch Size of 15 Pounds)
King Arthur Sir Lancelot Flour (100%):
Water (61%):
IDY (0.40%):
Salt (1.75%):
Olive Oil (1%):
Total (164.15%):
4207.16 g  |  148.4 oz | 9.28 lbs
2566.37 g  |  90.52 oz | 5.66 lbs
16.83 g | 0.59 oz | 0.04 lbs | 5.59 tsp | 1.86 tbsp
73.63 g | 2.6 oz | 0.16 lbs | 4.4 tbsp | 0.27 cups
42.07 g | 1.48 oz | 0.09 lbs | 9.35 tsp | 3.12 tbsp
6906.06 g | 243.6 oz | 15.23 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: Bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

Preferment (Poolish)
King Arthur Sir Lancelot Flour (100%):
Water (100%):
IDY (0.30%):
Total (200.3%):
1026.3 g  |  36.2 oz | 2.26 lbs
1026.3 g  |  36.2 oz | 2.26 lbs
3.08 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.02 tsp | 0.34 tbsp
2055.67 g | 72.51 oz | 4.53 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: Poolish represents about 80% of the Total Formula Water and about 30% of the total dough batch weight.

Final Mix
Poolish (from above):                                         2055.67 g | 72.51 oz | 4.53 lbs
Remaining Total Formula Sir Lancelot Flour (100%):
Remaining Total Formula Water (48.4166%):
Remaining Total Formula IDY (0.4324%):
Total formula Salt (2.31470%):
Total Formula Olive Oil (1.3288%):
3180.74 g  |  112.2 oz | 7.01 lbs
1540.01 g  |  54.32 oz | 3.4 lbs
13.75 g | 0.49 oz | 0.03 lbs | 4.57 tsp | 1.52 tbsp
73.62 g | 2.6 oz | 0.16 lbs | 4.4 tbsp | 0.27 cups
42.27 g | 1.49 oz | 0.09 lbs | 9.39 tsp | 3.13 tbsp
Total Dough Batch Weight:                                  6906.06 g | 243.6 oz | 15.23 lbs

When you are ready for a 10-pound dough batch, let me know. That way, you will have a one dough ball, five dough ball, 10-pound and 15-pound versions.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on February 24, 2010, 05:54:15 PM
Peter,

Thank you so much for doing all the numbers, again.  :)  How long did it take you to figure this out?  I appreciate you taking the time to go over this, again. 
Hopefully the Hatco unit will work out, since you have spent so much time on the poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on February 24, 2010, 06:36:00 PM
Norma,

The hardest and most time consuming part is to get all of the numbers to line up  ;D. As you may have noted, I used the expanded dough calculating tool to do the number crunching for the three parts of the exercise. Then I have to make sure that all of the numbers add up.

Since I was working with all of the numbers, here is the 10-pound version:

Total Lehmann NY Style Dough Formulation (Dough Batch Size of 10 Pounds)
King Arthur Sir Lancelot Flour (100%):
Water (61%):
IDY (0.40%):
Salt (1.75%):
Olive Oil (1%):
Total (164.15%):
2804.78 g  |  98.93 oz | 6.18 lbs
1710.91 g  |  60.35 oz | 3.77 lbs
11.22 g | 0.4 oz | 0.02 lbs | 3.72 tsp | 1.24 tbsp
49.08 g | 1.73 oz | 0.11 lbs | 8.79 tsp | 2.93 tbsp
28.05 g | 0.99 oz | 0.06 lbs | 6.23 tsp | 2.08 tbsp
4604.04 g | 162.4 oz | 10.15 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: Bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

Preferment (Poolish)
King Arthur Sir Lancelot Flour (100%):
Water (100%):
IDY (0.30%):
Total (200.3%):
684.2 g  |  24.13 oz | 1.51 lbs
684.2 g  |  24.13 oz | 1.51 lbs
2.05 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.68 tsp | 0.23 tbsp
1370.45 g | 48.34 oz | 3.02 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: Poolish represents about 80% of the Total Formula Water and about 30% of the total dough batch weight.

Final Mix
Poolish (from above):                                                         1370.45 g | 48.34 oz | 3.02 lbs
Remaining Total Formula King Arthur Sir Lancelot Flour (100%):
Remaining Total Formula Water (48.4166%):
Remaining Total Formula IDY (0.4324%):
Total Formula Salt (2.31470%):
Total Formula Olive Oil (1.3288%):
2120.49 g  |  74.8 oz | 4.67 lbs
1026.67 g  |  36.21 oz | 2.26 lbs
9.17 g | 0.32 oz | 0.02 lbs | 3.04 tsp | 1.01 tbsp
49.08 g | 1.73 oz | 0.11 lbs | 8.79 tsp | 2.93 tbsp
28.18 g | 0.99 oz | 0.06 lbs | 6.26 tsp | 2.09 tbsp
Total Dough Batch Weight:                                                 4604.04 g | 162.4 oz | 10.15 lbs

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on February 24, 2010, 07:45:42 PM
Norma,

The hardest and most time consuming part is to get all of the numbers to line up  ;D. As you may have noted, I used the expanded dough calculating tool to do the number crunching for the three parts of the exercise. Then I have to make sure that all of the numbers add up.



Peter,

I noted how you used the expanded dough calculating tool to do the number crunching for the three parts of the exercise. 

Thanks for the 10 lb. batch,

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: briterian on February 25, 2010, 04:59:31 PM
660 degree oven, 3 min on stone, 3 min on screen with screen on stone.  Turned out much better.  The high heat helped.   I do think this recipe has too much yeast in it. Next time I'll prob half it.
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on February 25, 2010, 08:17:08 PM
660 degree oven, 3 min on stone, 3 min on screen with screen on stone.  Turned out much better.  The high heat helped.   I do think this recipe has too much yeast in it. Next time I'll prob half it.


briterian,

I am glad you think the higher heat helped to make this formula better.  I am not an expert on what would happen if you would cut the yeast by half.  I didnít have any problems with this formula of over fermenting and Peter stepped up the yeast because of my cooler environment at market.  The extra yeast was added to provide more fermentation activity and the warmer water was added to prepare the poolish to speed up the fermentation process.  I might need to change all this once the weather gets warmer. 
I really donít know what temperatures you were preparing this formula in.  Maybe Peter has other ideas about the yeast for you.
It was interesting to hear you achieved good results at a higher over temperature.  That is something I would like to try someday.

Thanks for sharing you pictures and views on this formula,

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on February 25, 2010, 08:39:06 PM
I do think this recipe has too much yeast in it. Next time I'll prob half it.

Brian,

Can you tell me what led you to this conclusion?

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: briterian on February 27, 2010, 08:22:17 AM
Hi Pete,
It just seemed to have too many big bubbles during the cooking process.  I had to poke them about half way through.  Not a big deal but if the yeast could be adjusted some to avoid, I'm willing to give it a shot.  Just so you know I had it warm for about 3 hrs before baking. 

Update: I used the final 2 dough balls last night - this would be day 5 and WOW!  Best yet.  See pics below and compare to my earlier posts which show day 1 and day 2.  This one had the best overall color, taste, structure, airiness, and blistering.  The whole family really enjoyed it.  This was my first time comparing the effect of fridge fermentation has on dough.  We'll stick with this recipe and a 5 day fridge. 

See pics below from last night.  Pete, let me know if you think I should adjust the yeast.  I have a pizza party coming up for 15 kids and will be using this recipe. 

Cheers, briterian
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on February 27, 2010, 09:28:21 AM
Brian,

Your latest results indicate a nice improvement over your earlier pies, with good characteristics all around. Norma will perhaps find your results interesting because of the long fermentation time (5 days) you used.

I have not personally tried the recipe I gave to Norma but for a normal Lehmann NY style (without a preferment) I tend to use around 0.40% IDY in the winter and around 0.25% IDY in the summer. That is in Texas where I live. I have not experienced the type of bubbling you mentioned at either yeast level (and for other yeast values as well). Also, my oven is a very basic oven that cannot deliver temperatures such as your Bakers Pride countertop oven, which I assume you used to make the latest pizzas. I don't normally dock NY style dough skins but you might try that on one of your skins to see if that helps minimize the bubbling. I'm afraid to advise you to lower the yeast, or to lower it too much, if it is cool where you are. When I have done that, I have usually ended up with a dough that takes too long to ferment and has a subdued rise. As noted above, I have not experienced unusual bubbling in the finished crust when using lower amounts of yeast. It is more likely that good fermentation and gas development, a well hydrated dough, a long warm-up time, and especially high oven temperatures are the cause of the large bubbles rather than yeast quantity. If you look at the links given in Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10122.msg88410/topicseen.html#msg88410, you will see many examples of pizza crusts with large bubbles but without large amounts of yeast. Most of the time, members want those large bubbles and beg for advice on how to get them.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on February 27, 2010, 10:18:27 AM
Brian and Peter,

I do find Brians results interesting, because of the longer fermentation time and also with the great results Brian achieved in the pictures of his pies.  Brian, your pies do really look delicious.  :)  I really like the airy crust you achieved with this poolish preferment of the Lehmann dough. Did you achieve the crunchy crust you were looking for with this longer fermentation time?   How long was your warm up time with this current dough and about what ambient temperature was your room?                                                                                                                                                          I found at six days cold fermenting at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg90829.html#msg90829, I also like the results of the longer ferment. 
I didnít find any bubbling in my home oven or my Bakerís Pride.  Maybe as Peter has suggested it was your higher bake temperature. 
I have found in my home environment and the market setting, I can get different results. My home oven and the market oven are very different.  Even changing my market oven by 25 degrees F, can change how my pies bake.  My scale here at home which doesnít measure as accurately as my market scale can also make a difference. Each variable you put into a pie can make a difference, which I am learning over time.

Thanks for sharing your results and pictures of your longer fermentation times,  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on February 27, 2010, 11:38:37 AM
Peter and whoever might be following this thread,

I havenít been able to get the Hatco Unit to market this week, because my daughter was in New York and the unit is about 90 lbs. in weight.  I needed her to help me lift it into the van and also to unload it at market. It is very sharp on the bottom and although I am able to easily lift 50 lb., I didnít want to take a chance and try to lift this unit.  We are going to take it to market Monday, so hopefully this coming week, I will be able to try the larger batch of the poolish.

I do have another experiment that I am going to try with the regular Lehmann dough this week.  I wanted to try out the myth or theory about New York City water.  ::)  So far in my opinion, I really donít think their water makes that much of difference, but will try an experiment with two 15 batches of Lehmann dough.  One with the New York City tap water, that my daughter brought back from Queens, NY and one from the filtered water I normally use for the Lehmann dough.  It will be interesting to see if there is any difference in how the dough behaves or if the baked pizza tastes any different. 

Here are the papers that tell how the water is filtered that I used each week for all my doughs.  This water is bought at our local grocery store and you just take your gallon containers and fill them for .25.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: briterian on February 27, 2010, 01:37:28 PM
Hey Pete and Norma,
Thanks for the awesome feedback, compliments and suggestions.  If I could buy you both a beer I would.  I have to say I'm REALLY happy with the 'za from last night.  I've been attacking this dough monster for quite some time and I honestly think I've hit on something pretty special.  We heated up the leftovers from last night in a 450 degree 'normal' oven for about 5-6 minutes and it was as good as last night and oh so crunchy, which as you know was one characteristic I was after.  Here are some other points based on your two previous  posts.

1.  Docking - good idea. I need to get a docking roller or can I just use a fork?  I don't think I'm going to mess with the recipe and drop the yeast at this stage. Things are going too good. I might also reduce the out of fridge dough warm up time to about 2 hrs vs 3 hrs.  I like your comment about how members want bubbles which shows me that I' hitting the nit picking stage.   :D
2. Details on bake.  I baked it on the top deck of my backers pride m02t.  I have a fibrament square stone that I use and I let it preheat for like 2 hrs as far as the dial on the oven can go.  I used my infrared temp gauge and got about 670 degrees.   I bet I baked it around 6 minutes with a rotation for even cooking at around the 4 min mark.  I've got blista's on my pizza (beatles reference  ;)) is something totally new for me and most welcome surprise.

Norma - since we share almost the same oven - I'd love to see you try this method out and report back results.

3. With regards to crunch - it definitely had it and was even better today on reheat.  Check out a couple better pics of the bottom of crust today.

Cheers,
Briterian
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on February 27, 2010, 02:09:04 PM
Brian,

For starters, you might try a fork to see if that works. If so, you can then consider buying a dough docker. The advantage of a dough docker is that it doesn't completely penetrate the skin, as a fork can. A dough docker sort of "staples" the top and bottom surfaces together.

You did indeed get a lot of blistering. There appears to be many things that can cause a dough to blister but long fermentation is perhaps the most common one.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on February 27, 2010, 03:47:02 PM
Brian,

Great to hear you were really happy with the pizza last night.  :)  I also think this dough is special.  Thanks for all the details on how you baked the pizza.  The pizzas I make at market take about 5 minutes to bake between 525-550 degrees F.  I bake most of my pies on the bottom stone.  I did use my infrared temp gun different times and I also have a flat puck thermometer, but donít know how accurate either of them are.  Sometimes my infrared temp gun says the temperature is about 575 degrees F, but then the flat puck type thermometer says 550 degrees F.  I really donít know which is right. 
I might take you up on trying the highest temperature I can get the next time I make the poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough.  It would be at the end of the night that I would try this dough and higher temperature. 

Thanks again for posting your pictures and your results,

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on March 01, 2010, 05:47:52 PM
My daughter and I finally got the Hatco Unit to market today.  I will try the larger batch of poolish this Friday.  I had plugged the unit in today to test the temperature again to make sure the temperature would stay at 80 degrees F.  I had tested the unit before in my tool shed and I donít know if it was the coldness of the tool shed or what might have happened, but the temperature did stay at 80 degrees F there.  When I tested the Hatco Unit at market today the temperature went to 90 degrees F at the lowest setting.  I then fooled around with it trying different things.  I found by letting one of the doors a little open, the temperature did stay right around 80 degrees F for an hour.  I didnít have more time to try it today, but will on Friday. 
I also made two batches of regular Lehmann dough today to test the water I usually get and the water from Queens, NY.  Both 15 lb. finished dough batches had the same temperatires.  I tasted each raw dough about 5 times to see if I could taste a difference in the dough.  In my opinion the Queens, NY dough tasted a lot saltier.  Iíll see tomorrow if I can taste any difference in the finished pizza.  I also will get some of my pizza testers to taste the pizza.  Both doughs looked the same.
These are pictures of the Hatco Unit under the pizza oven on a shelf, my water, Queens, NY water, dough from NY water, and pictures of the kinds of cheese I use on my pizzas.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on March 01, 2010, 05:48:37 PM
last two pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on March 01, 2010, 06:19:20 PM
Norma,

To avoid conscious or subconscious bias, you might want to conduct a blind test with the two different doughs. For example, your daughter (or someone else) would know the difference between two doughs but you wouldn't at the time you make pizzas with the two doughs. You could do similarly with the pizza testers. You would know which dough is which when they taste the pizzas but they wouldn't. Ideally, you would make all of the pizzas as closely to each other as possible so as to eliminate or minimize variables that might affect the results of the eating tests. You could even just bake crusts without anything on them. However, this might require aggressive docking to keep the crusts from ballooning up.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on March 01, 2010, 06:33:15 PM
Peter,

That's a good idea.  ;D  I will also get the stand holders near me to taste two small slices and have the paper plates marked A and B on the same plate for the two different doughs. Only I will know with dough is A or B.  I really want to taste the two different doughs.  I couldn't believe today when I tasted the dough how much difference there was it the saltiness.  I also have some 5 oz. dough balls made from both doughs.  I will bake up each one without any toppings.  ::)

Norma 
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on March 02, 2010, 09:12:28 PM
Today I tried the dough experiment with the Queens, NY water and the regular water.  I first aggressively docked the 5 oz. dough balls and baked only the crust.  I had 13 taste testers.  I gave each one a piece of each baked dough and only told them it was my regular dough, but something was different with each one.  I asked them to give me their opinions on which dough they thought was best, or if they thought they tasted the same.  Out of the 13 taste testers only one picked the dough that I made from my regular water.  The other 12 all said the dough tasted better and had more flavor from the water I used from Queens, NY.  One of my taste testers was from Long Island and said he has never tasted any good pizza from around here and he believed that the water from NY had everything to do with the taste of the dough.

Now the interesting part.  I made pizzas with only sauce and cheese.  I had the same taste testers taste each pizza.  With the added sauce and cheese they couldnít tell the difference in the pizzas.  Even my daughter and I couldnít taste any difference in the pizza crust after the sauce and cheese was added. 

The first picture is of the finished crusts. A being the Queens, NY, water.  B being the regular water. The next three pictures of the pizzas were from the Queens, NY water.  The last three pictures were from the regular water.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on March 02, 2010, 09:13:46 PM
last 3 pictures of regular water.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on March 02, 2010, 09:25:33 PM
Norma,

I was looking forward to the test results. My eyes lit up when I saw you were posting.

The pizzas look great. Were you able to detect any other differences between the two sets of pizzas, such as different crust color, texture or anything else?

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on March 02, 2010, 09:48:33 PM
Norma,

I was looking forward to the test results. My eyes lit up when I saw you were posting.

The pizzas look great. Were you able to detect any other differences between the two sets of pizzas, such as different crust color, texture or anything else?

Peter

Peter,

I wish I could say there was a difference in the finished pizzas in some way, but I couldn't detect any difference.  I can say that the taste of just the baked crust did have a lot more flavor and I liked it better, as did the taste testers.  Hard to say what this experiment accomplished.  I did save 1 dough ball from each and now they are frozen.  I will try the same test again with the frozen dough balls.  Fred of Fred's Music was at market today and I gave him a dough ball made from the New York water to try at home.  I didn't tell him it was the dough made from the New York water.  Will see if he notices any difference.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on March 03, 2010, 07:08:06 AM
The last 3 pictures I posted of the regular water in the finished pizza, were when I had turned up the oven to 600 degrees F.  I had wanted to see if the regular Lehmann dough would be okay at that high temperature, before I tried the poolish preferment of the Lehmann dough. Since briterian had posted about using higher temperatures and getting good results with the poolish preferment, I will have to try even higher temperatures this coming week, if I find time.  The crust was crisper when using these higher temperatures and the crust seemed to brown more.
This picture is of the regular Lehmann dough using the regular water at my normal oven temperatures. yesterday.

I also wanted to say I enjoyed talking to Fred and his wife about his trip to pizza school in California. 

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: briterian on March 05, 2010, 08:36:24 AM
Hi Pete,
I saw your recipe here: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg90900.html#msg90900 for making a single 14" pie.  Did you just take the recipe you had at 149 and basically divide everything by 5?  It doesn't look that way and that is why I am asking.  I am making 20 pizza's next week for a big party and I just took the recipe at 149 and multiply everything by 4 - to turn the 5 pizza's into 20.  Will that be Ok?  I made the poolish last night and it is in the fridge so I am going to be mixing the final dough tonight and would love to know if I am on the right path.  Thanks in advance.

Brian
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on March 05, 2010, 08:57:45 AM
briterian,

You could combine the formula for 15 lb. of dough with the fomula for 10 lb. of dough and probably get about 20 dough balls.

This formula at reply 273  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg91181.html#msg91181 usually gives me 13 dough balls with a little left over.  I use a thickness factor of 0.08932.  If you used this amount along with reply 275 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg91188.html#msg91188, it should give you about 20 dough balls if you thickness factor is the same. 
I will let it up to Peter that knows the math more than I do if this would work.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on March 05, 2010, 09:16:56 AM
Brian,

The recipe I posted at Reply 252 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg90900.html#msg90900 was for a different dough formulation that I used to conduct a few tests. Also, it was for a 14" pizza, not a 16" pizza such as Norma has been making. That is mainly why your calculation did not work. If you want to make 20 dough balls (for twenty 16" pizzas) such as Norma has been making, I think the easiest approach is to take the numbers given in Reply 149 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg88687.html#msg88687 and multiply them by four, just as you said. There are other ways to do it if you want a precise set of numbers but you would have to go through the whole set of tedious calculations that I did. You could also follow Norma's suggestion of combining the 10 and 15 pound dough batches but you would end up nominally with a total dough batch weight of 25.38 pounds, as opposed to 22.4 pounds that you would get by scaling up the dough formulation at Reply 149 by a factor of four. So, you would end up with 2.98 pounds of extra dough, or enough dough for a couple extra pizzas.

I look forward to your results since I believe you will be making the largest dough batch to date using the poolish-based Lehmann NY style dough formulation that Norma has been using. Your results should also help Norma when she ratches up her dough batch size using the same recipe. So, please let us know how things turn out.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: briterian on March 05, 2010, 10:27:15 AM
Thanks guys!  Very prompt replies.  I'll keep moving forward with reply 149 multiplied by 4.  My electrolux mixer will be getting a workout.  It can't handle 5 dough mix just a 4 dough mix so I am going to figure out how 5 batches look and then get me a nice india pale ale to help me pass the time.   

Did I mention that this pizza is for 15 kids under the age of 13 all headed to the ohio state swim meet!  They will need their carbs and I'll get a review if it's better than the pizza monopoly here in Cincinnati called LaRosas.

brian
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on March 05, 2010, 10:48:36 AM
Thanks guys!  Very prompt replies.  I'll keep moving forward with reply 149 multiplied by 4.  My electrolux mixer will be getting a workout.  It can't handle 5 dough mix just a 4 dough mix so I am going to figure out how 5 batches look and then get me a nice india pale ale to help me pass the time.   

Did I mention that this pizza is for 15 kids under the age of 13 all headed to the ohio state swim meet!  They will need their carbs and I'll get a review if it's better than the pizza monopoly here in Cincinnati called LaRosas.

brian


Brian,

Best of luck and I will be very interested in seeing how this works out for you.  Good to hear you will be getting a review if this formula is better than LaRosas Pizza.  IMHO most pizzas on this forum are better than pizza businesses.  Since trying some of these pizzas on this forum, I haven't been back to my favorite pizza man for pizza.  Only for other items he sells..LOL  I think my taste especially in the crust has changed.

Norma

Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on March 05, 2010, 05:42:59 PM
I tried out the Hatco Unit today and think it will work okay for making the poolish.  The temperature stayed between 81-88 degrees F.  A batch of poolish for a 15 lb. dough was made today. 
These are pictures of the Hatco unit, poolish when just mixed, poolish at 1 hour, poolish at 2 hours, and poolish at 2 Ĺ hours.  At least there is room for the Hatco Unit under the pizza oven on the shelf. 

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on March 05, 2010, 05:44:02 PM
rest of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on March 08, 2010, 05:18:47 PM
The larger batch of poolish that was made Friday with the Hatco unit worked well today, when incorporated into the final dough. 

Picture 1 poolish after it came out of deli case
Picture 2 dough made with poolish

Now the only problems I can see with using the poolish preferment with the Lehmann dough is on Friday deciding how much dough I will need for the following Tuesday.  It all depends on the weather on how much dough I need to make.  The only other problem I could foresee is when the weather gets hotter if I need to adjust anything about this formula.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on March 08, 2010, 06:08:32 PM
Norma,

The poolish looks quite good to me. It will be interesting to see whether the next batch of pizzas are as good as when you made smaller test batches.

Your production requirements are unique. Most pizza operators operate in enclosed shops where they can control temperature conditions more uniformly than you can where you are at the farmers market, although it looks like the Hatco unit may turn out to be a good addition to your operation. Also, pizza operators make pizzas on specific, fixed days and learn through ordering patterns and sales for each day how much dough they will have to make to meet demand throughout the course of the week. You have one one day to sell pizzas, in an environment that can be quite variable. Also, bad weather can mean fewer customers. If you track your sales, I would guess that they can be quite variable from one Tuesday to the next. A pizza operator with one bad day might be able to hold the dough balls in inventory over to the next day and be in pretty good shape. You don't have that option. Unless you decide to discard unused dough balls or find other uses for them or other outlets for them, you most likely would have to freeze them until the next Tuesday and adjust the size of the next dough batch to yield a standard number of total dough balls for the next Tuesday. I personally don't see any problem with freezing dough balls for later use in your case. Although you do not make frozen dough balls like commercial dough ball producers do, your dough balls are made from quality materials and are perhaps of better overall quality than commercial frozen dough balls. And they should not degrade in quality over the course of several days until the next Tuesday. Plus, you have already demonstrated that you can make good pizzas with frozen dough balls. Some operators use only frozen dough balls. You would have a hybrid operation.

These are just thoughts off the top of my head. You no doubt have a better grasp of your operation and the economics of it and may see other options for balancing out your inventory of dough balls when you are only selling pizzas on one day.

It is perhaps premature to think about what changes might have to be made when summer arrives. As you know, there are a lot of places where the dough formulation and methods can be adjusted. As we enter spring and we have more information on how the larger dough batches perform, we can look at some of the possible changes to experiment with.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on March 08, 2010, 07:52:50 PM
Peter,

I also am interested is seeing how the dough preforms tomorrow.  It looked, smelled and felt the same as when I made a smaller batch. 

I know my production requirements are unique.  So are all the other food vendors that have to prepare food for just one day. That is the way of market vendors. There are many restaurants that serve full menuís. I would hate to have to deal with what to make for the day in one of those.  There is a Greek stand that only sells Greek food and pastries that they prepare before market and make the Gyros on market day.  They also have fresh fried fish stands, Asian stands and many more eating stands..I only have to deal with the dough, but I donít want to run out of dough.
At least in my situation, I have been at the market for many years, so I know somewhat what to expect in terms of people.  The weather here is supposed to be great tomorrow, so that will mean a lot more people coming to the market.  People here get cabin fever and come out in swarms when the weather is better. When summer comes there are many tourists and that is what is hard to predict. I had trouble today thinking about how much dough to make.  That is a weekly decision.  At least I keep some frozen dough balls from the week before and use them during the day before I use all the fresh dough balls. They can just as easily be used for cheesy breadsticks, garlic knots, pizza buns, or Paniniís. I only keep the dough balls frozen for one week.  I have found when trying to use frozen dough balls from two weeks, they donít perform as well. 
Sales at market are down during the winter, although still many regular customers come.  Rainy weather can affect the amount of customers in any season.  People still like to come to market because there are so many fresh vegetable, fruit stands, fresh meat stands, deliís, fresh poultry and their prices are much lower than grocery stores.  If I would have to guess when the weather is nice and there are inside and outside vegetable and fruit stands the number of them could be forty or better.  Many farmers come sell their vegetables, too.
 
That is one of the problems I see in making the poolish on Friday if the weathermen arenít right about Tuesdayís weather.  It is almost a year since I started making pizza at market and I can kind of predict what might happen this summer if the weather isnít too hot. I know some day I wonít make the right decision about how much dough I will need.  I have learned this from having other stands at market.  At least if the weather men are wrong, and I canít predict what amount of poolish to make there is always the regular Lehmann dough to make extra of on Monday. Hopefully this poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough will work out for pizzas all year long.  Maybe the Hatco Unit will work out because I could put a lot of poolish in there.

Thanks for saying when summer approaches we can see if there is a need to adjust things,

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on March 09, 2010, 09:38:05 PM
The larger batch of poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough worked out well today.  I made regular pizza out of the dough and also a Sicilian pizza.  The dough worked out well for the Sicilian, too. 

These are some of the pictures of the pizzas made with the poolish preferment and the Sicilian Pizza pictures.  The Sicilian Pizza was made in a square 10" pan and the dough used was the regular weight of dough for the 16" pizza.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on March 09, 2010, 09:42:00 PM
rest of pictures..if anyone is interested in seeing some pictures of the market and how many standholders have to get ready for just one day, I will post some pictures of market stands.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on March 09, 2010, 09:49:29 PM
Norma,

Those are fine looking pizzas. It looks like your perseverence has paid off. Now that you have demonstrated that you can work with larger dough batches with the poolish, where do you go from here?

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on March 09, 2010, 09:55:53 PM
Peter,

Thank you for saying the pies look fine.  I guess the next step is trying to decide how much poolish I will need for next Tuesday.  I don't know if the first weeks if I will make the right decision on how much poolish to make weekly, but I will give it a try.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on March 12, 2010, 08:21:50 AM
Peter,

I just wanted to ask a question, before I made the poolish for more than one dough batch today.  This past Monday and Tuesday were warmer here.  When I mixed the final dough with the poolish it was 68 degrees F at market.  The poolish dough looked the same when finished as the Lehmann dough.  It had a couple of tiny bubbles while balling.  When I used both the doughs Tuesday, it seemed like the preferment poolish dough looked like it was more fermented in the deli case and while on the bench.  I didnít have any problems opening the poolish dough until around 5:30 PM.  Then it seemed like the preferment poolish dough was more extensible.  I could still open it, but it was harder than the regular Lehmann dough.  The temperature inside market Tuesday varied, but with the oven on it was around 82 degrees F.  I let both kinds of dough balls out on the counter from anywhere between 1 Ĺ hours to 3 hours. 

Yesterday I had read Evelyneís post at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg28773.html#msg28773
In that post she had stated:
If you are working with any kind of preferment or starter, that temperature is way, too high.
That was referring to the finished dough temperature of 80-85 degrees F between home and commercial dough making.
I am now wondering if I should just let the poolish ferment less today, or adjust the final dough temperature on Monday.  Since it is supposed to be warmer on Tuesday, again.  I donít want the dough to be overfemented .

Do you know if there is a certain point I should be looking for today in how much the poolish should bubble?  I guess it will be a learn while you go experience.  I will be making multiples of batches of dough for Tuesday, because I sold out of dough this past Tuesday.  I am now wondering if I should just try for two batches with the poolish this week and make the rest with the regular Lehmann dough, until I have more experience with the poolish preferment and temperature changes.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on March 12, 2010, 09:46:22 AM
Norma,

I believe that what Evelyne was saying about the finished dough temperature was in relation to a commercial dough using a poolish, not a poolish-based dough in a home environment. But, what she says about Tom in this regard appears to be correct. For example, if you look at Reply 6 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7385.msg63703/topicseen.html#msg63703, specifically, the quoted paragraph on preferments, you will see that Tom calls for a finished dough temperature of 80-85 degrees F for the dough prepared in the final mix using the preferment.

Based on Evelyne's comments, I went back to the Didier Rosada materials on preferments to see if anything was said about the finished dough temperature after the final mix. I couldn't remember his addressing that matter and, when I re-read the materials, I did not see it. I think that what Evelyne had in mind is that when you use a preferment, one of the purposes is to shorten the total production time from the point that the preferment is incorporated into the final mix. So, if you want the prefermented dough to last as long as a straight dough, you should slow down the fermentation process. One way to do this is to strive for a lower finished dough temperature, as by using cooler water. This is consistent with what Professor Calvel discusses and shows in his book The Taste of Bread. Specifically, he shows a chart at page 46 that compares different baking methods for making dough and baking the bread. The total elapsed time for a straight dough, from mixing to baking, is shown as 6 hours. For a poolish-based dough, the total elapsed time from mixing (the final mix) to baking is given as 4 hours and 45 minutes. These examples are with respect to bread dough in a room-temperature environment, but I believe the same principles should apply in a cold fermentation environment for two doughs that are handled the same way from the time of mixing to the time of use. If I am correct on this point, that might help explain why your prefermented dough started to become more extensible sooner than your regular Lehmann dough. I think one way to bring the two Lehmann doughs into closer alignment is to temper your Lehmann poolish-based dough for a shorter time period than your regular Lehmann dough. That means having to treat the two types of dough somewhat differently.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on March 12, 2010, 10:50:44 AM
Peter,

Thanks for the referenced link and going over about preferments.  I canít really temper my Lehmann based poolish preferment dough for a shorter amount of time, because market isnít open on Saturday or Sunday.  The alarms are set for those days. I need to make the poolish today.  By delaying the time I take the Lehmann poolish preferment dough out of the deli case, do you mean a shorter time for warm-up? 
               
I noticed when I looked at both doughs Tuesday morning that the poolish preferment dough looked like it had expanded more.  I canít really tell because the balls are cold fermented in a plastic bags.  When I did the 5 test balls in the plastic containers, in past weeks, the dough didnít look like it had expanded more.  Later in the day, this past Tuesday, it looked like the Lehmann poolish preferment dough had more bubbles than my regular Lehmann dough. 

I think I am going to just test another poolish for a 15 lb. batch today and see what happens with the final mix and then study the dough more on Tuesday, before I go into a full poolish preferment of the Lehmann dough for more batches.  Right now, since I am unsure what will happen with the temperature changes, I donít want my dough to change too much without understanding what might happen.

Thanks,

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on March 12, 2010, 11:18:22 AM
Norma,

What I meant is that instead of letting the poolish-based Lehmann dough balls temper for 1 1/2-3 hours, you might shorten that time. Maybe 1/2-1 hour is better for that dough.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on March 12, 2010, 11:37:54 AM
I noticed when I looked at both doughs Tuesday morning that the poolish preferment dough looked like it had expanded more.  I canít really tell because the balls are cold fermented in a plastic bags.  When I did the 5 test balls in the plastic containers, in past weeks, the dough didnít look like it had expanded more.  Later in the day, this past Tuesday, it looked like the Lehmann poolish preferment dough had more bubbles than my regular Lehmann dough. 

Norma,

I forgot to comment on the above in my last post but what you have reported seems to be consistent with the Calvel comparison data as earlier reported. It may pose some problems in logistics if you are to make the two different Lehmann doughs and have them co-exist side by side, but hopefully those problems will go away if you finally settle on the poolish-based Lehmann dough. That is not to say that you won't have to tweak the poolish-based Lehmann dough to fit your operations better, but that is something that can be addressed down the line, and particularly as the weather warms up. For now, I think it would be better to play around with the temper times than to try to reformulate the poolish-based dough and its fermentation (slow it down) so that the dough balls track the basic Lehmann dough balls better.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on March 12, 2010, 11:52:25 AM
Norma,

What I meant is that instead of letting the poolish-based Lehmann dough balls temper for 1 1/2-3 hours, you might shorten that time. Maybe 1/2-1 hour is better for that dough.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for the suggestion of letting the dough balls warm up for less time..  I will try that Tuesday.  I think I am going to make the poolish part today and let it in the Hatco Unit for less time, than I did last Friday.  The poolish was left in the Hatco Unit for 2 1/2 hrs. last Friday,  I will watch the poolish today and see if 2 hrs. might work out.  It still has time to cold ferment in the deli case over the weekend.  
From the time I start making pizzas until I am finished in the evening is about 11 hours.  That gives the dough balls additional time to cold ferment.  When dealing with all these dough balls and different amounts of time to cold ferment I can see a difference even in the normal Lehmann dough by evening.

Thanks,

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on March 12, 2010, 12:12:26 PM
Norma,

With the two doughs behaving differently and producing materially different results, it is easy for us to forget that the two Lehmann dough formulations are the same. It is only that we have sliced and diced the regular Lehmann dough formulation to come up with a poolish version. Consequently, we shouldn't expect the two doughs to perform the same way.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on March 12, 2010, 05:01:40 PM
Norma,

With the two doughs behaving differently and producing materially different results, it is easy for us to forget that the two Lehmann dough formulations are the same. It is only that we have sliced and diced the regular Lehmann dough formulation to come up with a poolish version. Consequently, we shouldn't expect the two doughs to perform the same way.

Peter

Peter,

I can understand that both the Lehmann dough with the poolish preferment and the regular Lehmann dough are basically the same.  The poolish preferment dough just makes the pizza more Artisan looking and better tasting in my opinion. 

I just have to do some more tests to see how the dough will be perform when use later in the day on Tuesday and also how the dough looks after it is cold fermented for a day.  I want to be able to note any changes, before I go into a poolish preferment for all my dough.

The poolish preferment was mixed today for another 15 lb. test batch.  I upped the temperature in the Hatco Unit to 96 degrees F.  A thermometer was kept in the poolish so I could watch and not let the temperature of the poolish get to high, because of the added temperature of the Hatco Unit.  The poolish seemed to be ready in 1 Ĺ hrs and the temperature of the poolish was 81 degrees F.

The first picture is after I took the poolish out of the Hatco Unit and put it on the edge of the sink for 4 minutes.  The temperature fell to 78 degrees in that short amount of time.  The ambient room temperature at market was 58 degrees F.  The second picture is of the poolish back in the Hatco Unit and the temperature was 81 degrees F.  The poolish then was put into the deli case. The temperature of the deli case was 37 degrees F.

Will see if this test poolish works any different than the last one, in making the final dough, is any different after cold fermenting, and also in the later hours on Tuesday.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: UnConundrum on March 12, 2010, 08:59:42 PM
Hey Norma, just wanted to add my 2 cents :)  Those pies do look great.  What improvement you've made from when you first posted :)  I hope the customers appreciate the quality product you're now offering and the time you've put into it!!!!  Well done!
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on March 12, 2010, 10:46:21 PM
Hey Norma, just wanted to add my 2 cents :)  Those pies do look great.  What improvement you've made from when you first posted :)  I hope the customers appreciate the quality product you're now offering and the time you've put into it!!!!  Well done!

Warren,

Thanks for saying the pies look great.  I am not making all my batches from the poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough at this time. It is just one 15 lb. batch each week. I am still trying to produce the poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough pies on a consistent basis and have the same product from week to week.

Thanks,

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on March 15, 2010, 05:58:43 PM
The poolish preferment was mixed into the final dough again today for a 15 lb. batch.  I did a few things differently to see if there would be any difference in the dough tomorrow.  First I mixed the poolish preferment right out of the deli case, without any warm-up.  Before I had left the poolish warm up beside the heater.  The ambient temperature at market today was 58 degrees F.  The second thing I wanted to try was to lower the final temperature of the dough.  The dough temperature after the final mix was 76 degrees F.  I also mixed a regular 15 batch of the Lehmann dough and had the final dough temperature of that at 76 degrees F.  The third thing I did differently was to place poppy seeds on one dough ball of the poolish preferment and also did the same thing with the regular Lehmann dough.  These pictures donít look like the poppy seeds are aligned, but I think that was because my camera wasnít aligned with the plastic bowl.  I put both doughs in a plastic containers so I could measure them over the course of the day tomorrow.  I found a measuring device in my sewing box, that would fit inside the plastic containers.  The measuring device is supposed to be used for hemming clothes, but since it was small it did work out in fitting inside the container.  The one Lehmann dough I mixed had a regular final dough temperature of 82 degrees F.  I didnít put any of that dough in a plastic bowl to measure.

Picture 1 how the poolish looked.
Picture 2 is the regular Lehmann dough ball with measuring device and poppy seeds
Picture 3 is the poolish preferment Lehmann dough ball with measuring device and poppy seeds

I also took a video with my camera of the poolish preferment of the Lehmann mixing in my mixer.  Some of it isnít too clear, but it shows how the dough mixed.  I stopped the mixer to see if I thought the dough was mixed and turned the mixer on again to mix a little more.  It can be seen in the video when I poured the olive oil in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNBabnwtY5Q

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on March 15, 2010, 06:35:24 PM
Norma,

Sometimes when bakers plan to combine a refrigerated preferment with the remaining ingredients as part of the final mix, they use warmer water for the remainder of the total formula water so as to achieve the desired finished dough temperature. As you might expect, the temperature of the remaining water will depend on the amount of the preferment that is used in the final mix. In your case, did you adjust the remaining water temperature or did you just rely on the fact that the room temperature was on the low side?

Peter 
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on March 15, 2010, 06:56:54 PM
Peter,

I did use my  Cadco Cast Iron Heavy Duty Single Burner Countertop Range to warm my water like I usually do when the weather is cooler. I just didnít heat the water as warm.  I wanted to see what effects the cooler final dough would make tomorrow.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on March 16, 2010, 09:57:29 PM
The poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough worked out well today for pizza, cheesy bread sticks and Sicilian pizza.  As I suspected the dough made with the poolish preferment did ferment more than the regular Lehmann dough.  I took pictures of both dough balls at 8:30 am, 1:30 pm and 6:30 pm with the poppy seeds.  I donít know what effects that will have on the dough when I go to a full poolish preferment.
I am not sure if putting the poolish preferment into the final dough cold, is what made this dough work better today, but it seemed to work better and didnít get extensible like it did last week.  The temperature at market and outside were the same as last week. 
I also didnít let the poolish preferment with the Lehmann dough have more than a one hour warm-up time. 

1st picture Lehmann dough 8:30 am
2nd picture poolish preferment Lehamann dough 8:30 am
3rd picture Lehmann dough 1:30 pm
4th picture poolish preferment  Lehmann dough 1:30 pm
5 th picture Lehmann dough 6:30 pm
6 th picture poolish preferment Lehmann dough 6:30 pm
rest of pictures are of pizzas, cheesy breadsticks and Sicilian Pizza made with poolish preferment of the Lehmann dough

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on March 16, 2010, 09:59:16 PM
next pictures
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on March 16, 2010, 10:00:34 PM
rest of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on March 16, 2010, 10:21:23 PM
I also made a take and bake pizza out of the poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough.  I will be trying that pizza out in my home oven in the next few days.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on March 16, 2010, 10:27:23 PM
Norma,

Thank you for posting all of your latest results.

I believe that both doughs performed as they should have. Were you able to visually discern the differences in the degree of expansion of the two types of dough? I know it is sometimes hard to tell when the dough balls go from round dough balls to slumping disks.

If you feel that you would like to slow down the fermentation of the poolish version, you can use cooler water at the time of the final mix. You can perhaps also lower the amount of yeast although that might require re-doing the numbers in Reply 273 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg91181.html#msg91181. I think I would rather work with temperatures than yeast quantities.

Now that you have conducted several runs with the poolish method, are you still committed to that approach, or do you think that the regular Lehmann dough meets your business needs based on acceptance by your customers?

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on March 16, 2010, 10:41:43 PM
Norma,

Thank you for posting all of your latest results.

I believe that both doughs performed as they should have. Were you able to visually discern the differences in the degree of expansion of the two types of dough? I know it is sometimes hard to tell when the dough balls go from round dough balls to slumping disks.

If you feel that you would like to slow down the fermentation of the poolish version, you can use cooler water at the time of the final mix. You can perhaps also lower the amount of yeast although that might require re-doing the numbers in Reply 273 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg91181.html#msg91181. I think I would rather work with temperatures than yeast quantities.

Now that you have conducted several runs with the poolish method, are you still committed to that approach, or do you think that the regular Lehmann dough meets your business needs based on acceptance by your customers?

Peter

Peter,

Since I used the plastic containers, instead of the plastic bags for this test, I could visually see the dough did ferment more.  It didnít slump, it just got higher in the plastic bowl.  I wanted to take a picture of the difference, but I forgot.  I also could visually see how much more the poppy seeds had spread apart.  With the regular Lehmann dough the poppy seeds didnít move much.

I think I am going to go with your approach and use cooler water and do another 15 lb. batch of the poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough next week.  Since the dough worked out well today, using the cold poolish, I will just try to get the final dough temperature a little cooler.

I still am committed to using this formula.  I just want to make sure everything works out well, before I go into doing this with all my dough.

Thanks for your help,

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on March 16, 2010, 10:57:09 PM
I also made a take and bake pizza out of the poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough.  I will be trying that pizza out in my home oven in the next few days.

Norma,

It will be interesting to see how your take and bake pizza turns out. Have you decided how long you will wait before baking the pizza, and will you be baking the pizza the way that is usually recommended for take and bake pizzas? What I am anxious to see is the differences between the take and bake dough/pizza and the other poolish-based doughs/pizzas you have been making.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on March 16, 2010, 11:14:26 PM
Norma,

It will be interesting to see how your take and bake pizza turns out. Have you decided how long you will wait before baking the pizza, and will you be baking the pizza the way that is usually recommended for take and bake pizzas? What I am anxious to see is the differences between the take and bake dough/pizza and the other poolish-based doughs/pizzas you have been making.

Peter

Peter,

I am interested in seeing how the Take and Bake works out in my home oven.  Since my home oven doesn't go too high, I am just going to bake it on the parchment paper that I put under it to see what happens.  I am not sure how long I am going to wait before baking it.  I am going to watch it in my home refrigerator and then decide.  I am almost sure the Take and Bake pizza won't look like a pizza made at market.  I am not going to use my stone.  Just put it in the oven.  I don't even know what rack I will try.  Should be interesting.  ::)

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: NY pizzastriver on March 17, 2010, 11:19:37 AM
Ok so these pies look pretty amazing, gotta say, and after 17 pages I can assume the formula has been perfected so here's my question.

In looking back a few pages I found the last actual formula listed.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg91188.html#msg91188

I see no thickness factor so I can't fathom a scaled down batch, then add scaling down poolish and we're really deep into the unknown. Is there a non commercial batch with full protocol anywhere? Say for 2-3 15" pizzas?

Thanks in advance  :D
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on March 17, 2010, 11:44:18 AM
NY pizzastriver,

I even had trouble finding the formula for 1 dough ball.  ::)  My thickness factor is 0.08932, so my pies are thin. 

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg90226.html#msg90226

You could double this formula to get two dough balls.

I have been experimenting right now with making the poolish and letting it cold ferment for 3 days before incorporating into the final dough. Then letting the final dough cold ferment for one day before making the pizzas. 

I wish you the best in trying this poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough.  If you want you could come to market some Tuesday and I would give you a dough ball to compare yours with. 

Any other questions, just ask.  I guess this thread is getting kind of mixed up, by all the twists and turns.

Thanks for saying the pies look amazing,

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on March 17, 2010, 11:51:38 AM
Jim,

The dough formulation that you perhaps want to use is the one given for a single 16" pizza at Reply 225 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg90226.html#msg90226, as Norma noted. Since that formulation is for the 16" size, you would have to re-do all of the numbers, using the criteria set forth in Reply 225 (mainly in the notes). That would be the most accurate way to proceed. However, unless you delight in spending an hour or so working with numbers, and double and triple checking them once you are done, you might instead make 2-3 dough balls for 2-3 16" pizzas using the numbers in Reply 225 and then scale back the final dough batch weight to the desired weight after the final mix. For example, if you want to make two dough balls for the 15" size, you would scale the dough batch weight down to 2 x 3.14159 x 7.5 x 7.5 x 0.088 = 31.10 ounces (881.73 grams). For three dough balls for the 15" size, the final dough batch weight would be 3 x 3.14159 x 7.5 x 7.5 x 0.088 = 46.65 ounces (1322.60 grams). Either way, you should end up with several ounces of leftover dough. You will note that I used a thickness factor of 0.088 rather than the number quoted by Norma. Her value reflects the use of a bowl residue compensation. Since you will end up with leftover dough anyway, you don't need to use the higher number.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: NY pizzastriver on March 17, 2010, 11:57:08 AM
NY pizzastriver,


Any other questions, just ask.  I guess this thread is getting kind of mixed up, by all the twists and turns.



Ok, thanks, and yes some Q's What temp is the water for poolish?
What temp for final dough mix?

So you let the poolish sit in the fridge for 2 days right after mixing, or out for a few hours 1st? Is it tightly or loosely covered while it rests? If so with and in what?

When do you divide into 2 or 20 balls, in your case, lol.

Once you mix final dough and it comes out of fridge does it sit out covered and dusted for awhile? If so what's awhile?

I'm sure there's more, but they all may be listed in some protocol section I'm yet to find. It is 17 pages after all! Hope you are well, and thanks for the aid.  ;D

EDIT: And thanks Peter, good thought to make it easier indeed.

Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on March 17, 2010, 12:16:34 PM
Jim,

You are asking some tough questions..LOL  :-D The water temperature for the poolish is varying right now for me and also the temperature for the final mix.  I am not expert, but have found when trying a smaller amount of 5 dough balls using a water temperature of about 85 degrees F and letting the poolish sit at room temperature for about 3 hours or until you see the poolish bubbling.  This might vary depending on your room temperature and water temperature.  Just watch the poolish and you should be able to see when it looks like it has bubbled enough. 

I let the poolish cold ferment for 3 days.  I did let the poolish come up to room temperature before I mixed into the final mix, but have found out recently, I could just add the cold poolish to the final dough.  You could try it either way. 

As for the final dough temperature this has also varied for me.  I think if you get a final dough temperature of between 80-85 degrees F, you should be fine.  I had that dough temperature when trying 5 dough balls.

I do divide the dough into single balls right after the final mix. 

Then cold ferment for one day.

Before making the pizza recently, I have let the dough only sit out for an hour before opening the pizza.  Then open the dough.  When making the five dough balls, I let the dough balls sit out for anywhere between 1 Ĺ to 3 hours.

Hope this doesnít confuse you.  IMO this dough is very forgiving.

Anymore questions, just ask.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: NY pizzastriver on March 17, 2010, 12:20:54 PM
Good answers to my tough Q's! The only remaining was the poolish sits in a bowl in fridge, covered with wrap, or in airtight containment? I'm actually very excited to try this, as you can see I gave you time to work out the bugs, and this pic is what made me say they are all worked out!

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=9908.0;attach=19857;image

Just WOW!
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on March 17, 2010, 12:24:32 PM
Good answers to my tough Q's! The only remaining was the poolish sits in a bowl in fridge, covered with wrap, or in airtight containment?

Jim,

Sorry I forgot to answer that question.  Yes, the poolish is covered in the fridge either with wrap or an airtight container.  I use an airtight container.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: NY pizzastriver on March 17, 2010, 12:29:09 PM
ok, I'm off to mix up some poolish, I'll let ya see results in a few days! Thanks neighbor!
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on March 17, 2010, 12:32:34 PM
Jim,

I forgot to look at your picture.  :-\

The only bug on working on this type of Sicilian Pizza was trying to do that in the last two weeks.  Last week I used a rectangular pan.  This week I used a 12" deep-dish pan and after oiling the pan with olive oil, I let the dough room ferment for 3 hours with a linen towel.  The dough did rise considerably.  Then I dressed it with an infusion of olive oil and fresh herbs, like I use in my cheesy bread sticks, then sauce and mozzarella.  

Good Luck!  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: NY pizzastriver on March 17, 2010, 12:46:19 PM
Well it's a solid poolish! That is to say not soupy in the least. I just mixed the 151 gs of water and flour, and 1.6 tsp IDY in the mixing bowl and by the time I got it to the container I have 286 gs left. i think that's about 6% bowl/wisk attachment residue.

Maybe it's better to mix it by hand in the actual container it's to rest in. This will help my scaling down to 15" though. As blob-like as it is I can't see how will bubble, but the high yeast concentration should break through that issue.

It is now sitting in airtight container on the counter.
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on March 17, 2010, 12:51:03 PM
Jim,

The poolish is very thick. I mix mine with a spatula. It will bubble.   :-D

Let me know if you have any problems,

Peace neighbor,

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on March 17, 2010, 01:44:00 PM
Jim,

If you are looking for a Sicilian pizza out of this poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough, here are two pictures of a slice I had for lunch today. I just microwaved the slice and it was still soft and tasty.  Last picture after I had a bite.

Only a few more days and you will be eating your own,  ;D

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: NY pizzastriver on March 17, 2010, 02:15:08 PM
It will bubble.   :-D


I'll say! In 1 hour it blew he top right off the Tupperware container, might have been all that high speed mixing, lol. It is now in a much larger airtight container on the counter, and has reduced yet again to probably 260- 270 gs.

Yeah I confused on which pizza was which, either way at least the Sicilian pie inspired me enough to try the regular formula.

 :chef:
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on March 17, 2010, 10:23:47 PM
I tried the Take and Bake 16" pizza tonight.  Since the dough has no added sugar and I am just experimenting with the idea of a Take and Bake pizza, this will give me an idea on what would happen if baked within 24 hrs., as it would state on instructions.  This will also give me a starting point to do further experimenting.  I donít think if this ever succeeds that I would try a 16" pizza, again.  Next time I would probably try a 12" Take and Bake pizza.

I let the pizza sit out at room temperature last evening to stimulate a customer taking the pizza home to bake.  The dough looks lifeless while in the refrigerator and right after taking it out.  I let the Take and Bake pizza sit at room temperature while the oven heated to 475 degrees F. for 1 hour.  I used my cheap infrared gun to check the temperature.  The dough did rise a little in the one hour time frame. 

I baked the pizza for 13 minutes at the above referenced temperature.  The top looked like it was browning too fast, so I dropped the oven temperature to 450 degrees F and continued baking for another 8 minutes. 

The Take and Bake pizza was good, but I will do things differently the next time I try this.  I have never thought about how thin my pies were, until I tried this in my home oven.

The bottom crust did have some browning, but not enough for me.  The rim was nice and crunchy.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on March 17, 2010, 10:25:03 PM
rest of Take and Bake pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on March 17, 2010, 10:44:07 PM
Nirma,

Was the pizza baked on a combination of parchment paper on top of aluminum foil?

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on March 17, 2010, 10:47:07 PM
Norma,

Was the pizza baked on a combination of parchment paper on top of aluminum foil?

Peter

Peter,

No, the pizza was just baked on the parchment paper.  That is why I said I wouldn't try a 16" Take and Bake.  It was to hard to try and load into the oven.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on March 19, 2010, 04:11:15 PM
There were a few new things tried with the poolish preferment today.  The temperature at market, the flour, water and IDY were 57 degrees F. I didnít heat up the water and just added the flour, water and IDY and mixed.  I also wanted to see after mixing the poolish if the temperature of the poolish would rise any by mixing by hand with a spatula.  It did.  The temperature of the poolish after mixing was 61 degrees F.  The poolish was then put in the Hatco Unit for 1 hr. and 14 minutes.  I adjusted the temperature of the Hatco Unit a little higher (103-109 degrees F).  Then I took the poolish out of the Hatco Unit before it had a lot of bubbling, compared to more active bubbling in the last few weeks.  I want to see if the poolish will bubble as much over the next 3 days in the deli case.  In summarizing why I did all these things was to see how much difference it can make in the poolish by Monday.

Picture of poolish before going into deli case.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: NY pizzastriver on March 21, 2010, 05:01:22 PM
Well, not so good, lol. Let me start by explaining that after final mix and divide the tops blew off the containers in about 3 hours. This left a thick skin by the time I noticed. This probably killed the dough, but I degassed it and put it back in and it blew back up a second time, but I'm still not saying it wasn't on its last legs due to the airflow issue. If I'd gotten these results without top blowing off I may have said the poolish can't live 3 days, but this thread already shows it can, so that's that.

Since my final weight of poolish was 250gs instead of 300 I added all remaining ingredients at x.83 to keep it accurate. After 3 days the poolish had risen, then sunk to a goop that I let rest in the remaining warm water for a few minutes to help it break up. All seemed ok once it mixed, standard feeling dough.

It came out to a dusted board today, dusted and saran covered to come to room temp. As soon as I started to stretch it I knew it was dead, no bubbles, play dough unresponsive consistency, it reminded me of the old days! (or my more recent fails in the "OO" experiments)
 :D

It cooked as poorly as you'd expect from dough appearance, staid white when toppings were done, bad rise, cardboard texture and a rim that could be called more of a ''holder'' to eat the slice more than an actual edible part of the pizza. The sauce and toppings were great though, and the crust flavor was still ok, so I did eat a few slices.

Now to the point of my trying this preferment. As far as the flavor goes like I said it was fine, but not a bit different from doing a Lehmann straight up for one or two days. That said I'll assume the preference in the process must be a textural one. (?) If so clearly my experience today obviously can't allow any meaningful comment there, but it must be a pretty darn magical consistency with all that's involved. To close it was fun to try, and all that, but a good reminder to stick with what ya know!

Here's pics, and peace!

 
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on March 21, 2010, 05:29:15 PM
Jim,

Would you mind telling us what dough formulation you used and how you prepared the dough through the final mix and to the point of baking? Knowing the temperatures (e.g., room temperature, finished dough temperature, etc.) at the different stages would also be a big help. From your discussion and photos, I would say that the dough overfermented. Ordinarily, for that to happen, the temperature and/or yeast quantity would have to be out of whack.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: NY pizzastriver on March 21, 2010, 05:47:41 PM
Hey Peter, sure no problem. As posted in this reply for the 16" http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg90226.html#msg90226

I made 2 balls, the original formula for 1 was ...



Total Lehmann NY Style Dough Formulation (for a single 16" pizza)
King Arthur Sir Lancelot Flour (100%):
Water (61%):
IDY (0.40%):
Salt (1.75%):
Olive Oil (1%):
Total (164.15%):
310.16 g  |  10.94 oz | 0.68 lbs
189.2 g  |  6.67 oz | 0.42 lbs
1.24 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.41 tsp | 0.14 tbsp
5.43 g | 0.19 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.97 tsp | 0.32 tbsp
3.1 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.69 tsp | 0.23 tbsp
509.13 g | 17.96 oz | 1.12 lbs | TF = 0.08932
Note: Nominal thickness factor = 0.088; for one dough ball for a single 16" pizza; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

Preferment (Poolish)
King Arthur Sir Lancelot Flour (100%):
Water (100%):
IDY (0.30%):
Total (200.3%):
75.66 g  |  2.67 oz | 0.17 lbs
75.66 g  |  2.67 oz | 0.17 lbs
0.23 g | 0.01 oz | 0 lbs | 0.08 tsp | 0.03 tbsp (this is a bit less than 3/32 t.)
151.55 g | 5.35 oz | 0.33 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: Poolish represents about 80% of the Total Formula Water and about 30% of the total dough weight.

Final Mix
Poolish (from above):                                                         151.55 g | 5.35 oz | 0.33 lbs
Remaining Total Formula King Arthur Sir Lancelot Flour (100%):
Remaining Total Formula Water (48.4166%):
Remaining Total Formula IDY (0.4324%):
Total Formula Salt (2.31470%):
Total Formula Olive Oil (1.3228%):
234.5 g  |  8.27 oz | 0.52 lbs
113.54 g  |  4 oz | 0.25 lbs
1.01 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.34 tsp | 0.11 tbsp
5.43 g | 0.19 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.97 tsp | 0.32 tbsp
3.1 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.69 tsp | 0.23 tbsp
Total Dough Batch Weight:                                                 509.13 g | 17.96 oz | 1.12 lbs



As my poolish was much lost in whisks and transferring I had 250gs left. Therefore my final mix was

388 flour
186 water
.56tsp IDY
1.6 tsp salt
1.04 tsp oil

in other words the remaining doubled, then multiplied by .83 as 17% was gone from poolish.

The poolish was made as stated, but doubled, and finally placed in a large enough container to hold it. Now it was mixed in mixer, not spatula as I later learned was protocol, so this might have increased temp.

Final mix was removing cold poolish into warm water, not hot water. Added yeast, oil, idy, salt, mix slow until poolish began to separate a little. 1/2 remaining flour went in, mixed into batter with wisk at 1st, then S-hook for about 5 mins. Divide to 2 400g balls, straight into oiled containers.. 3 hours later boom! Degassed and recovered.


Room temp is about 70, nice, slightly overcast, 30% chance of precipitation. Ok, so just the 70 part.  :-D

final dough temp was probably about 60-65 based on it sitting out for 2.5 hrs. As to actual temp who knows, no digital lazer-mometer here. Baked for about 6 mins at 550.

Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on March 21, 2010, 06:37:42 PM
Jim,

I think I may have figured out what happened with your dough. From your description, it sounds like you let the dough sit at room temperature after the final mix. The way that Norma has been making the poolish version of the Lehmann dough, as per my original advice and her own experiments, is to let the dough after the final mix cold ferment for about a day before using. In your case, with the sugar in the poolish most likely used up by the yeast in the 3-day poolish, all the heavy lifting during the room temperature ferment was left to the remaining yeast added as part of the final mix. Normally, that amount of yeast would not produce a lot of rise in the dough, but use of the warm water no doubt helped that process along, at least at the outset. If your room temperature was around 70 degrees F, and with the use of warm water, even with the cool poolish, it is hard to see how the finished dough temperature would be below your room temperature after 2 1/2-3 hours. You would have needed a very cold poolish and cold water as part of the final mix, and even then, based on the quantities involved, the final dough would not have has a finished dough temperature below room temperature after about 2 1/2-3 hours.

If the above was, in fact, the case, then the fermentation of the final dough would have been slow. Also, 2 1/2-3 hours would have been insufficient to allow the natural sugars in the dough to be released by enzyme action. That would have ultimately manifested itself in a light color in the final baked crust. Also, you would have not gotten as many byproducts of fermentation to contribute to final crust flavor and texture.

In short, it looks to me that you essentially baked an underfermented dough, not an overfermented dough as I originally speculated before I fully understood what you did. 

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on March 21, 2010, 06:40:24 PM
Jim,

I am sorry to hear you had so many problems with the poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough.  :(
 
Since I mix the poolish and final dough at market and my temperatures can widely differ, I am also wondering why your poolish had so much expansion that it blew the lid off the poolish.  I have made the poolish in different ways and using different temperatures before incorporating into the final dough.  My poolish never blew the top off.  I have used various times in letting the poolish bubble and just watch it until it seems to bubble enough.
 
The one day I did have problems with the final dough and it being more extensible, but then I only left the dough warm-up for one hour.

When I make this dough the pizza gets more artisan looking and gets a better flavor to the crust in my opinion.   

I am still experimenting with different things with the poolish and even the final dough temperature. 

Since I am not an expert on a poolish or even trying many kinds of doughs, I will see what Peter thinks might have happened.

I see Peter just answered your post, just as I was going to post.

Jim,

After I reread your post, I am still wondering why after the final mix, the lid blew off and also how the poolish seemed to go into goop.

Thanks for going into detail on what happened when you made this poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough,

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on March 21, 2010, 06:53:25 PM
Norma,

As I understand it, Jim's final dough blew, not the poolish, which apparently had risen but sunk to a "goop". Based on what Didier Rosada has told us in his writings, an overfermented poolish can have types of acidity that can negatively affect the flavor of the finished product. For this to happen, the poolish would have had to collapsed and remained in that state for some time, not just an hour or two.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on March 21, 2010, 07:04:09 PM
Norma,

As I understand it, Jim's final dough blew, not the poolish, which apparently had risen but sunk to a "goop". Based on what Didier Rosada has told us in his writings, an overfermented poolish can have types of acidity that can negatively affect the flavor of the finished product. For this to happen, the poolish would have had to collapsed and remained in that state for some time, not just an hour or two.

Peter

Peter,

I just had revised my last post, after I reread what Jim was saying about the poolish and final dough.  I will have to keep this all in mind to watch if the poolish I am using ever reacts the same way. 

Norma

Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: NY pizzastriver on March 21, 2010, 08:34:31 PM
Jim,

I think I may have figured out what happened with your dough. From your description, it sounds like you let the dough sit at room temperature after the final mix. The way that Norma has been making the poolish version of the Lehmann dough, as per my original advice and her own experiments, is to let the dough after the final mix cold ferment for about a day before using. In your case, with the sugar in the poolish most likely used up by the yeast in the 3-day poolish, all the heavy lifting during the room temperature ferment was left to the remaining yeast added as part of the final mix. Normally, that amount of yeast would not produce a lot of rise in the dough, but use of the warm water no doubt helped that process along, at least at the outset. If your room temperature was around 70 degrees F, and with the use of warm water, even with the cool poolish, it is hard to see how the finished dough temperature would be below your room temperature after 2 1/2-3 hours. You would have needed a very cold poolish and cold water as part of the final mix, and even then, based on the quantities involved, the final dough would not have has a finished dough temperature below room temperature after about 2 1/2-3 hours.



Ok let me address paragraph 1 here first by saying "what!?" When you say I let it sit out after final mix, it sat out for 2.5 hrs after being in the fridge for a day. This was to warm the dough as always. Are we on the same page there, or did you think I mixed, divided and let it sit out for 2.5 hrs after that? I said "straight to oiled containers", that meant it went in the fridge then.

You also mention something that I need clarification on. When you say ''with the sugar in the poolish most likely used up by the yeast in the 3-day poolish''. I assume you mean the natural sugar? If you don't that means the poolish was to have sugar, and mine didn't as per formula...unless I missed something??? Ok so now that we settled that would you now say over or under-fermented? I'm confused on your saying the dough temp would be less than room temp after being out for 2 1/2 hours too. How could it be higher than room temp?!

Norma, yes no problem, live and learn. How did poolish blow off top? Well it about tripled in size! It was very stringy by the time I transferred to larger container. These are small tupperware containers, the ones I use normally. They are the 12 on the right seen here.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7761.msg75724.html#msg75724
They have pinholes so this was a sheer mass blowing off the top, same as final dough did within 3 hrs 3 days later. I'm thinking the water in poolish should be cold, not mixed in mixer, etc. My synopsis is the poolish died, hence the final dough blew on new yeast and died soon after. Hey maybe the poolish was supposed to have sugar! But it was goop indeed and impossible, almost comical, to get out of container without another part sticking. Also it was not fast to break up, once i got 1/2 the flour in after mixing the salt and all I had to high speed it for 3 minutes to break it up... another possible warming factor prior to final dough.
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on March 21, 2010, 09:15:58 PM
Jim,

Now I am even more confused and perplexed. I based the conclusion that you let the final dough after the final mix sit at room temperature based on this statement:

Let me start by explaining that after final mix and divide the tops blew off the containers in about 3 hours.

I did not see anything in that statement to tell me that the dough balls went into the refrigerator right after the final mix. I almost always put dough balls to be fermented at room temperature in oiled plastic storage containers, to keep the dough balls from spreading too much, particularly with a hydration of 61%, and I assumed that you did the same thing.

On the matter of the sugar in the poolish, yes, I was referring to the natural sugars that are extracted from the starch by enzymes during the prefermentation period. Based on the description of the poolish you provided, I came to the conclusion that the poolish ran out of natural sugars by the time you used it. That might not have been optimal but with a new source of yeast for the dough at the time of the final mix, the dough should have been able to ferment (cold ferment) in a fairly normal manner over the course of a day in the refrigerator. The over-aged poolish might not have had much, if any, further leavening power but it would have contributed a lot of fermentation byproducts to add to final crust flavor.

On the matter of the room temperature versus the finished dough temperature, you said that the room temperature was about 70 degrees F and that the finished dough temperature was about 60-65 degrees F after about 2 1/2 hours. My belief is that the finished dough temperature would have been quite close to 70 degrees after about 2 1/2 hours, not at 60-65 degrees F. I never did say that the finished dough temperature would get above about 70 degrees F, which would not be possible at a fixed 70 degrees F.

Based on your latest explanation, I am puzzled why you got the results you did. 

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on March 21, 2010, 09:20:41 PM
Jim,

This is a video of the first time I opened the poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough, if you are interested in seeing how the dough behaved.   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6sz1Br1Wxc
This was the first week I tried this dough formula and even did wrong measurement and ended up with two different poolishes, but this video was the right poolish.

This is another link to show you what my dough looked like in the early stages of experimenting with this poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough in reply #228 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg90273.html#msg90273

I did use a plastic container as you did while making the poolish and also have used plastic containers for the tests for 5 dough balls.  Right now I am doing more tests and am using poppy seeds to see how much the final dough ferments for 1 day.  I also am using Cambro containers now for the poolish.

I know all this can sound confusing,

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: NY pizzastriver on March 22, 2010, 02:48:35 PM
Jim,

Now I am even more confused and perplexed. I based the conclusion that you let the final dough after the final mix sit at room temperature based on this statement:

Let me start by explaining that after final mix and divide the tops blew off the containers in about 3 hours.



Ah yes, I see now, I meant
Let me start by explaining that after final mix and divide the tops blew off the containers in about 3 hours... in the fridge
 ;D

Thanks for clarifying the rest of the points, and I have to say if the poolish lived then I'll guess it's simply too much fermentation caused by the open air in the fridge once top blew. I mean the skin formed so that's never good. I did use ball 2 today for bread sticks. For browning purposes I basted pan and sticks with garlic evoo and spices. Still a bit too crusty but they went ok with the homemade ravioli that I made for the 1st time today... mmm!

Again don't feel bad Norma, it's all good! Yeah I saw the vids, looks like some well behaved dough. I'll put my next poolish in a time out to see if it behaves better.
 :D
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on March 22, 2010, 05:34:02 PM
Jim,

Your bread sticks and ravioli look great.  :)  LOL, putting your poolish in a time out to see if it will behave better.  This dough does behave well, no need for a time out for the poolish or final dough.  If you decide to give it another shot, here are some things I did different this week.  I will see tomorrow if this new experiment does work.

Norma

For anyone that is following this thread this is what I did different this week.

I put the poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough in the final mix cold and also didnít heat the water for the final mix.  The water was only 62 degrees F.  My final dough temperature was only 68 degrees F.  The poolish wasnít left to bubble as much last Friday.  It did have the same amount of bubbles after the 3 day cold ferment.  I put two dough balls into two different size plastic containers and put poppy seeds, spaced at 1" apart on both.  I will take measurements tomorrow to see how much the dough ferments while using this colder final mix temperature. The temperature at market today was 68 degrees F.  The humidity today was 68% humidity, because it has been raining here today. 

These pictures are of the poolish today and the kind of spatula I use to mix the poolish.  The second picture is of the flexible dough scraper I use to take the poolish out of the container and also to scrape the sides of the mixer down.  The third picture is of the two plastic containers I placed the dough balls in with the added poppy seeds. The one container is just a plastic container and the other container is a cambro container.  I use a 12 qt. container to mix the poolish for a 15 lb. batch.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on March 23, 2010, 09:16:21 PM
The new experiment for the poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough worked out well.  The dough that had a final temperature of 68 degrees preformed the same as last weeks dough.  I left the dough warm up for various times and it didnít have any extensibility.  This recent dough performed better with the Sicilian pizza in my opinion.  I pushed out the dough with my fingers in a 12" deep-dish pan and let it proof at room temperature for 3 hours, covered with a linen towel..  The crust did get more airy than the previous Sicilian pizzas.  I also made another kind of breadsticks with the poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough.  I used caramelized onions along with the herb mixture and Romano cheese.. 

Last week I froze the two test dough balls from the regular Lehmann dough and the poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough.  I forgot to take a picture last week of a side view so I could compare how much the two dough expanded upward it the same size bowls.  I let the two dough defrost at room temperature and let them on the counter for 4 hours.  They didnít expand anymore, but they still worked out well when making a pies. 

The one thing that has me puzzled is about the two dough balls that I put the poppy seeds on yesterday.  I did put the dough balls in two different size containers.  The one was wider in diameter than the other.  I put the little measurement tool on both doughs today at two different times.  One at 8:30 in the morning and one at 3:30 this afternoon.  They both were kept in the deli case and only taken out for the measurements.  The dough in the container that was larger had more space between the poppy seeds, than the other dough that was smaller in diameter.  My guess is you canít use two different size of containers and be able to measure with accuracy how much the dough ferments, because there were two different measurements with exactly the same dough balls.

Another experimental 12" Take and Bake pizza.

Picture 1 8:30 this morning test dough in larger container
Picture 2 8:30 this morning test dough in smaller container

Picture 3 3:30 this afternoon test dough in larger container
Picture 4 3:30 this afternoon test dough in smaller container

Picture 5 Cheesy breadsticks with caramelized onions and Romano cheese

Picture 6 Sicilian pizza

Picture 6 unfrozen Lehmann dough on left and unfrozen poolish preferment for Lehmann dough on right from last week

Picture 8 test Take and Bake 12" pizza for this week

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on March 23, 2010, 09:17:31 PM
other four pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on March 23, 2010, 10:19:15 PM
Norma,

I am glad to hear that the latest poolish version of the Lehmann dough turned out well. Do you plan to use the cooler poolish going forward?

You indicated that the dough after tempering did not have any extensibility. Do you mean that the dough was elastic, with snapback?

It's interesting how the two dough balls with the poppy seeds performed. I almost never make two dough balls at a time so I have never done side by side comparisons. I wonder whether different size containers can affect the extent of fermentation in some way by altering the geometry of the dough balls.

I really like the looks of the Sicilian pizza.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on March 23, 2010, 10:42:37 PM
Peter,

Since I have tried this experiment with using a cold poolish and also a cooler final dough and it has worked well, I am going to go forward with this method.  I think this also will work in warmer weather.  Only time will tell.  This whole method is a lot easier.  Even the poolish did well with only letting it ferment for less time.

I meant my dough didnít have the extensibility that I found in this post. There was no snap-back.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg92834.html#msg92834

That was when I had more problems opening the dough later in the day.

I was also puzzled by this experiment with the two dough balls.  If I had just taken the one dough ball and then just measured it with the poppy seeds, in one size container, I wouldnít have found out how differently the poppy seeds moved.  I really canít understand how you can accurately measure how much the dough ferments after I tried the two different size containers.

Thanks for saying you liked the looks of the Sicilian pizza.  The crumb was so moist, tasty and airy, I couldnít have asked for more.

Thanks,

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on March 24, 2010, 10:41:50 PM
I made the poolsh preferment Lehmann dough 12" Take and Pizza that I brought home last night, late this evening.  The only thing different I did was let the aluminum foil under the parchment paper.  This pizza took longer to bake.  I watched it like a hawk, while it was in the oven though the glass door.

Next week I think I am going to try a par-baked pizza for the Take and Bake because years ago a place near us had a delicious Take and Bake pizza that was par-baked and you just took it home and baked for a little. The pizza could then also be frozen and baked at another time. The pizza place is still there, but the pizza went down hill.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: hotsawce on March 25, 2010, 05:13:31 PM
Looks great for a take and bake, Norma. Better than nearly everything in my area, actually.
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on March 25, 2010, 07:52:06 PM
Looks great for a take and bake, Norma. Better than nearly everything in my area, actually.

hotsawce,

Thanks for saying the pie looks great for a Take and Bake.  :)  I am just trying out this experiment and others with the poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough to see if there are ways to make a pie and be able to make it the next day in an easy way.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on March 29, 2010, 08:52:50 AM
Peter,

I have been curious about the poppy seed trick and how the results were from last week.  ::) I did freeze the two dough balls with the poppy seeds and am going to see tomorrow after they are unfrozen if I can tell anymore differences in them. 

I plan on making two more dough balls today with the poppy seeds to see if I can tell anymore differences in using different containers.  I will be using the poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough.  Can you think of any other kinds of tests I could do using the poppy seed trick to see if this trick really works in finding out how much the dough ferments?

I will call this the joust in the tournament of the poppy seed test.  It reminds me of the Renaissance Faire were have here in this area.  This is a picture from our Renaissance Faire.

Thanks,

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on March 29, 2010, 09:09:34 AM
Norma,

The timing of your last post is perfect  ;D. In view of your recent experience in using the poppy seed method, I decided to conduct my own experiment. I made two dough balls to make two 14" pizzas, with each dough ball weighing 399 grams and both based on the basic Lehmann dough formulation (with a hydration of 62%). In fact, the two dough balls came from the same dough batch. I tried to form the two dough balls so that they were as close to each other in shape and geometry as possible. I placed one of the dough balls in a one-quart glass Pyrex bowl and the other in a 1 3/4-quart Pyrex glass bowl. I placed the two bowls in my refrigerator side by side so that they would be exposed to the same refrigerator environment as much as possible. Over the course of about 2 1/2 days, I checked the spacing of the poppy seeds on a few occasions. After doing so each time, I switched the positions of the two bowls when I returned them to the refrigerator. After two days, there was essentially no difference in the spacing of the poppy seeds, although the dough ball in the 1 3/4-quart bowl slouched more than the dough ball in the one-quart bowl, and its shape was a bit more oval than round such that its dimensions were a bit different than the other dough ball. After a bit over 2 1/2 days, the dough ball in the 1 3/4-quart bowl developed such that the spacing between the two poppy seeds was about 1/16" greater than the spacing of the two poppy seeds of the other dough ball. Unless one measured the spacing, the difference wouldn't have been particularly noticeable. The dough ball in the 1 3/4-quart bowl at that point was still a bit oval in shape and its height was a bit less than the other dough ball which, by that time, had spread to touch the walls of its bowl, making its shape almost perfectly round.

The photo below shows the two doughs balls. The dough ball in the one-quart Pyrex glass bowl is shown on the right. The dough ball in the 1 3/4-quart Pyrex glass bowl is on the left.

In your case, you eventually will know what your dough balls should look like, making it unnecessary to use the poppy seed method. But my experiment was consistent with my prior use of the poppy seed method. As November has mentioned, the poppy seed method is not perfect or intended to provide a highly accurate technical measurement. Its merit is its simplicity.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on March 29, 2010, 09:59:10 AM
Peter,

I find your experiment very interesting.  ;D I have different sizes of Pyrex bowls here at home and will take two over to market.  The one container I used last week was a Glad container that had curved edges.  The other container was a Cambro container that had straight edges.  I will do the experiment and see if the two different curved Pyrex bowls do make a difference.  I will see if I can get more consistency this week.

The poolish went well again last Friday, so hopefully everything will go okay today. The water at market was warmer when I added it to the flour. I didnít heat the water, but the temperature and water at market were higher. The poolish then took 10 less minutes to develop to the point as the week before. 

I think by doing these experiments with the poolish preferment, using different water temperatures and higher temperatures in the Hatco Unit, I can now understand more what to do when I up all my dough to using the poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough.

The year is 1589, and there is so much to celebrate! The long-feared Spanish
Armada has just been crushed by the resilient English Navy. England is at the dawn of a Golden Age. And, best of all, the good Shire of Mt. Hope is having its 30th birthday! With so many reasons for revelry, everyone is gearing up to throw the most fantastical party that the Shire has eíer seen!

And to make her own addition to the dayís numerous festivities, Elizabeth has
declared that the two men shall vie for the title of ďQueenís FavoriteĒ through a
series of friendly competitions that include a Human Chess game and a magnificent Joust! Both Raleigh and Drake -- whose longstanding, celebrated friendship is in no way diminished by their equally longstanding, celebrated rivalry Ė are most eager to compete for the favor of the Queen, and the large chest of Spanish gold that shall go to the victor!

 http://www.parenfaire.com

And so the joust and tournament will begin.. ;D

Thanks for doing the experiments and reporting your results,

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on March 29, 2010, 10:30:56 AM
The one container I used last week was a Glad container that had curved edges.  The other container was a Cambro container that had straight edges.

Norma,

Over about the past year or so, I have been using pretty much the same storage containers for my dough balls. That way, I reduce the number of variables and I can relate results to each other, even for different experiments, without having to take into account the type of container, its material, its size, its shape or its wall thickness, all of which might affect the results. But, even then, I don't just say that a particular dough ball expanded by a particular amount based on the spacings of the poppy seeds. I try to always give the times it takes for the dough balls to reach particular sizes, like doubling or tripling. So, even if the poppy seed results were wrong, someone would still have a pretty good chance of replicating my results if my instructions are followed.

It is perhaps also useful to keep in mind that doughs change the longer they sit in their containers and as the fermentation approaches its outer limit. The gluten structure can degrade and water might be released from its bond, causing the overall structure of the dough to change such that the poppy seed method becomes less reliable. The same might apply to doughs with very high hydrations that result in doughs that have little internal stuctural support.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on March 29, 2010, 04:57:51 PM
Norma,

Over about the past year or so, I have been using pretty much the same storage containers for my dough balls. That way, I reduce the number of variables and I can relate results to each other, even for different experiments, without having to take into account the type of container, its material, its size, its shape or its wall thickness, all of which might affect the results. But, even then, I don't just say that a particular dough ball expanded by a particular amount based on the spacings of the poppy seeds. I try to always give the times it takes for the dough balls to reach particular sizes, like doubling or tripling. So, even if the poppy seed results were wrong, someone would still have a pretty good chance of replicating my results if my instructions are followed.

It is perhaps also useful to keep in mind that doughs change the longer they sit in their containers and as the fermentation approaches its outer limit. The gluten structure can degrade and water might be released from its bond, causing the overall structure of the dough to change such that the poppy seed method becomes less reliable. The same might apply to doughs with very high hydrations that result in doughs that have little internal stuctural support.

Peter

Peter,

Thank you for the additional information and about using the same size containers to keep the variables down so you can give predicable results for someone that wants to try your formulas. 

I used two Pyrex bowls the same sizes that you used.  I covered the dough balls in the Pyrex containers with disposable shower caps to see how that goes. I will measure them again tomorrow.

The only difference in my test today, was to make the final dough temperature a little colder. The final dough temperature was 61 degrees F. I want to see what effect this has on the dough tomorrow.  If this goes well, then I think I will be able to make all my dough with the poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough.  I wanted to experiment these last few weeks with different things, so I would understand more what can happen with the poolish and final dough.

Thanks for your help,

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on March 30, 2010, 09:34:26 PM
Well the jousting battle of the poppy seeds seemed to show their skill today.  They helped me gain skills of learning.  :)  The poppy seeds used in the two different Pyrex containers did show the same size of spacing at different times.  Although the dough in the smaller container did rise more, there werenít any measurable differences in the two doughs using the poppy seed method while it was fermenting from yesterday until late today.

The lower final dough temperature didnít seem to make any difference when making the pizzas today.  The dough did ferment some from yesterday.  The pictures show how it fermented from this morning until late this afternoon.  All the pizzas made with the poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough worked out well today. 

I also used the two poolish preferment for Lehmann dough balls that were frozen from last week and they worked out well, too..

Another thing that made me happy today was the inspector was at my stand and I didnít receive any violations.   :)

Picture 1 one dough ball this morning in Pyrex bowl-both measurements were the same for both dough balls

Picture 2 both dough balls this afternoon, side by side

Picture 3 first pizza this morning with final dough temperature lower than before

Picture 4 pizza made late in the afternoon

Picture 5 crumb of pizza made late in the afternoon

Picture 6 bottom crust of pizza made late in the afternoon

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on March 30, 2010, 09:36:14 PM
somehow picture 2 got cut off at the side  ::)..rest of pictures
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pizza Rustica on March 30, 2010, 11:24:22 PM
Hi Norma,

I have to say your pizza looks amazing!

I have been enjoying your thread. Could you please let me know your latest formula and methodology. Thanks.
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on March 31, 2010, 07:46:13 AM

Pizza Rustica,

Thanks for saying you enjoyed reading this thread and also saying the pizza looks amazing.  :)

This is the formula for one day ball for a 16" pizza as Peter set forth.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg90226.html#msg90226

If you want the formula for 5 test dough balls I used. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg88687.html#msg88687

When mixing the poolish it will be very thick.  I use a sturdy spatula.  I take off any sticky poolish with a flexible dough scraper, or something similar, so you donít lose any poolish.  If you want to try to make this poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough let the poolish sit out at room temperature or if you have a proofer, let it sit covered in a container until you see some big bubbles in the poolish.  The times for the poolish bubbling has varied for me.  It will all depend on your room temperature.  Just watch it.  Then put the poolish into the refrigerator for 3 days.  I mix the final dough this way after experimenting with the best way to mix it.  First put the water in the mixer, then the poolish, (take poolish out of container with either flexible dough scraper or your hand).  It will be sticky. Scrap the sides of container with the poolish in so you can get all the poolish out. Then add flour, IDY on one side of flour, and salt on other side of flour.  Mix until all flour is picked up.  Then drizzle oil down the side of bowl and continue mixing until dough looks mixed.  This takes about 3 minutes or a little longer in my commercial Hobart 20 qt mixer.  If you are using a home mixer it might be a different amount of time to mix the dough.  I usually donít mix my dough really long, because I have found the dough seems to get to the right consistency after the cold ferment.  Ball dough or dough balls right away and cold ferment for at least 18 hours.  I have found that a lower final dough temperature does work out with this dough.  Let the dough sit out to warm up for at least an hour.  I use a commercial Bakerís Pride oven and the temperature is between 525-550 degrees F on the hearth.  After the dough ball has warmed -up, put the dough it flour and lightly dust.  Put some flour on the surface you will be opening the dough.  Press your fingers around the dough making sure you donít press on the rim.  When picking up this dough to finish opening by hand, I have found this dough almost opens itself by going around the dough with my hands.  It is really easy to open. 

I use KASL flour.

I will wait and see if Peter has any additional instructions for you, since he is the one that figured out this formula.  It is basically a regular Lehmann dough sliced up to come up with a poolish preferment. The dough is 61 % hydration.  If you have any other questions, just ask. 

I also have one last final test for this poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough.  Since Friday is Good Friday, market will be closed, so I will have to make the poolish on Thursday.  Hopefully this works out for a 4 day poolish.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on March 31, 2010, 09:50:58 AM
Norma,

Sometime you might try using the tip that member heavy-d gave me at Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7327.msg65843.html#msg65843 to more easily get the poolish out of its container. His post was in response to my post at Reply 6 in the same thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7327.msg63286.html#msg63286.

I also have an update for you on the two dough balls I reported on earlier using the poppy seed method. I ended my experiment because the dough balls had reached the point to be used. In fact, it was a day longer than I had designed the dough to last (by the amount of yeast I used, etc.). By the end of three days of cold fermentation, the poppy seeds for the dough ball that went into the larger Pyrex glass bowl (1 3/4-quart size) started to widen more than the poppy seeds on other dough ball in the 1-quart Pyrex glass bowl, by about 1/8". The dough ball in the larger bowl had flattened more because there was more room for it to do that whereas the dough ball in the smaller bowl had already expanded laterally to touch the sides of the bowl such that the only way left to expand was upwardly. So, the smaller dough ball looked nice and round and plump. I had no way to know whether the two dough balls expanded by the same amount because of their different shapes but it is possible that there were differences. November had cautioned me that there are factors that can cause the poppy seed readings to be less reliable. Maybe that happens if the dough ball is allowed to expand too much laterally. I concluded that for me the better choice based on the sizes of dough balls I make is to use the smaller bowl rather than the larger bowl. That is pretty much what I have been doing anyway.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on March 31, 2010, 11:01:15 AM
Peter,

Thanks for sharing the tip heavy-d gave you.  That makes sense on how that tip would work, when using the final dough water and just pouring down the sides of the container into the poolish.  I will try that the next time.  I didnít think about it before, but the poolish does seem just like a gelatin.

heavy-d tip-ďThe poolish being all gelatin like and filled with CO2 will float off the container walls like a balloon in a bath tub.Ē  This could help anyone if they wanted to try to make the poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough or other poolishes for their dough.

Thanks for the update on your experiment with the poppy seeds.  I could see by this weeks tests with the poppy seeds and the tests I did last week, how much difference there can be in using a  bigger diameter container and straight vertical sides in how much the poppy seeds moved.  When I use the poppy seed test for future doughs, I will use smaller size containers of the same size to get more consistent results. I believe this is a great way of seeing how much the dough ferments and your tests have also helped me understand this more.

As always, you have me curious about what kind of Lehmann dough you are making now.  I guess I will have to wait until you post.

Thanks for your help,

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on March 31, 2010, 11:55:59 AM
As always, you have me curious about what kind of Lehmann dough you are making now.  I guess I will have to wait until you post.

Norma,

This time, I just made the two dough balls to test out the poppy seed method with bowls of two different sizes. The Lehmann dough formulation was just the basic one for a 61% hydration dough using King Arthur bread flour supplemented with vital wheat gluten to approximate the protein content of the King Arthur Sir Lancelot flour. I used one of the two dough balls to make a pizza that was baked using two pizza stones. That was also a test, but one that needs modification to be useful to me, so I have nothing to post on just yet. I reshaped and froze the other dough ball for future use.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pizza Rustica on March 31, 2010, 12:17:53 PM
Norma,

Thanks for the update on your recipe and methods. I am looking forward to trying it out. I don't have any KASL, but have KABF. Peter indicates that he uses vital wheat gluten to supplement the KABF. Any idea in what ratio you would use in the recipe?

Also, have you done any room temp preferments as opposed to refrigerated and if so what are your thoughts.
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on March 31, 2010, 12:35:44 PM
Russ,

For the dough formulation for a single 16" pizza set forth at Reply 225 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg90226.html#msg90226, you would use the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at http://foodsim.toastguard.com/ to determine how much vital wheat gluten (VWG) to add to the KABF, which has a protein content of 12.7%, to get the equivalent protein content of the KASL, which is 14.2%. You can use the pull-down menus for the KABF and the brand of VWG you would be using (if it is on one of the pull-down menus). The target mass for the dough formulation referenced above is 310.16 grams, and the target % is 14.2. MassA is the amount of KABF to use and MassB is the amount of VWG to use. The two should add up to 310.16 grams in the above example.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on March 31, 2010, 12:52:06 PM
Norma,

Thanks for the update on your recipe and methods. I am looking forward to trying it out. I don't have any KASL, but have KABF. Peter indicates that he uses vital wheat gluten to supplement the KABF. Any idea in what ratio you would use in the recipe?

Also, have you done any room temp preferments as opposed to refrigerated and if so what are your thoughts.

Pizza Rustica,

I haven't tried any room temperature ferment with this dough.  It has been all cold ferment for one day. Someday I want to take some dough balls home and try to see how long it will last while cold fermenting and also try a warm ferment.  I just didn't get around to trying both of these at this time.

I have frozen the some of the dough for 1 week with good results.

Thank you Peter for figuring how much VWG to add to the KABF.

Best of luck if you try this dough,  :)

Norma


Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pizza Rustica on April 02, 2010, 12:59:29 AM
Peter,

Thanks for the info on using the VWG. Can you tell me what to expect from the results by adding the VWG.

Norma, you mentioned one day fermentation, but i thought I read you were doing a 3 day cold fermentation?
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 02, 2010, 07:03:47 AM

Norma, you mentioned one day fermentation, but i thought I read you were doing a 3 day cold fermentation?

Pizza Rustica,

Sorry if I confused you about the time of cold ferment.  These are the steps I do.

1. Mix poolish
2. Let sit at room temperature until it bubbles-should have some big bubbles-keep lid on (can  be     anywhere from 1 1/2 hour to 3 hours, all depends on your room temperature)
3. Put poolish in the refrigerator with lid on.
4. Let poolish in refrigerator for 3 days.-I mix the poolish Friday and do the final dough on Monday.
5. After poolish is in the refrigerator for 3 days add the Final Mix with the poolish.
6. Ball dough and let cold ferment for 1 day.

It is 3 days cold ferment for the poolish and 1 day cold ferment for the final dough.

If you have any other questions, let me know.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on April 02, 2010, 09:24:11 AM
Can you tell me what to expect from the results by adding the VWG.

Russ,

VWG is just protein and is produced in the manner as described in the forum's Pizza Glossary at http://www.pizzamaking.com/pizza_glossary.html#V. So, one of its effects is to increase the protein content of the flour to which it is added. The VWG should also add a bit more crust color and yield a slightly chewier crust. I have read that VWG should also result in greater dough volume although I have not observed that effect (on the other hand, I have never done a side-by-side experiment). The VWG supplementation approach is usually used when one does not have access to high protein flours such as a high-gluten flour. I have found that it works better for bread flour than for all-purpose flour. However, bread flour supplemented with VWG is not identical to high-gluten flour.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 02, 2010, 02:03:27 PM
Pizza Rustica,


This is the poolish I mixed today for incorporating into the final dough on Monday.  You can see how much I let it ferment.  The first 3 pictures are of the poolish and how it looked before going into the deli case.

Norma

If anyone else is following this thread, I talked to the market manager on Wednesday and I was allowed at market today.  Phew..I didnít have to deal with seeing if the poolish went to Monday.  I made a double poolish today for 30 lbs. of dough.  If this works out okay, then I am going to make all the dough with the poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough. I donít know if it was because there was more poolish, but it only took 50 minutes in the Hatco Unit for the poolish to get to this point on the pictures.  The temperature of the Hatco Unit was between 106-109 degrees F. I used water that wasn't heated.  The temperature at market today was 70 degrees F. When I finally get to make all my dough with the poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough, I will need to use the mixer with the flat beater to mix the poolish. It was hard incorporating the water, flour, and IDY with the spatula today. Also, this is a picture of the new cutter rocker blade I am going to try Tuesday.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on April 02, 2010, 02:47:24 PM
Norma,

Based on Reply 273 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg91181.html#msg91181, it appears that for a 30-pound dough batch you made around nine pounds of poolish. If so, I can see how it can take some time to make that amount of poolish, especially without using your commercial mixer. Can you give me an idea of how long it took to make the poolish this time?

As for the shortened prefermentation period, it is possible that the shorter prefermentation period was due to the poolish getting a head start during its preparation at the warmer 70 degrees F ambient temperature at market. In my experience, it doesn't take long for the temperature of a dough (or poolish in your case) to warm up toward room temperature. It's also possible that the poolish is prefermenting faster because of its greater mass. This effect is often called the "mass effect" and is based on the chemical reactions occurring faster than in a small amount of dough. You can see a summary of the mass effect at Reply 490 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg30150.html#msg30150.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pizza Rustica on April 02, 2010, 04:19:58 PM
Peter

Thanks again for the help and education on VWG. We are going skiing for easter vacation so I won't be able to try until I return, but I do want to experiment with the VWG. Its very hard to get the KASL on the west coast without ordering from somewhere back east.

Norma,

Your clarification was very helpful. Quite a long period of fermentation. no wonder your results always look so good. Let me know how your new knife works. I think the rocker style is better for cutting and not dragging the cheese and other ingredients all over the pizza.
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 02, 2010, 04:47:46 PM
Peter,

You are correct in saying the poolish I made was about nine pounds.  I used 4.52 lbs. flour, 4.52 lbs. water, and 0.02 lbs. IDY.  It took me about 15 minutes to properly get it incorporated, while using the spatula.  I first mixed the IDY into the flour,  then added the water. 

I believe you are correct in saying about the higher ambient temperature at market, combined with the higher water temperature, then the longer mix of the poolish at room temperature, and then also the ďmass effectĒ.  I can see when all these factors are in combination how the dough did ferment faster when put into the Hatco Unit.  As I saw the other week, even when mixing a smaller batch the temperature of the poolish did go up. 

The article you referenced under the Lehmann thread by Didier Rosada is very interesting about dough strength.  Since pizza making and baking can have connections, when Didier Rosada was talking about how it almost impossible to judge the strength of the dough by reading a technical book and learning to have bakerís hands, that is what most of us newer people need to learn when making pizza.  In his definition of strength he lists three characteristics: extensibility, elasticity, and tenacity.  Being extensibility dough that is easy to stretch.  Elasticity dough springs back.  Tenacity resists stretching, so it is critical for bakers or pizza makers to maintain a good balance between elasticity and extensibility in order to get adequate dough and final product characteristics in baking. This can have a direct impact on the strength of the dough. The type of flour used also has a great effect.

I understand after reading this article about the ďmass effectĒ of larger dough and fermentation being greater on larger dough batches and how poolish preferments can give positive effects in the final dough. It is also interesting about how preferments not only affect flavor, but also give strength to the final dough.  When Didier Rosada talks about getting the maximum benefits from preferments in relationship to being properly maintained, which in turn will give a good balance of strength to the final dough this is all something I will have to learn with more experience.

That article has so many good points for pizza makers as well as bread bakers.  In conclusion he states that dough strength canít be learned in books and lots of working with dough or under supervision is our best teachers.  I can understand this as I am still on the learning curve and need to understand more about pizza dough.

I appreciate you helping with this learning process.   :)

Thank you for pointing me to these links and letting me know more about ďmass effectĒ,

Norma

Pizza Rustica,

Yes, the two steps in this dough do give a longer fermentation.  I really like this formula

Thank you for saying the pizzas look good.  I am anxious to try the rocker style and see how it works out.  I will let you know how it goes.  It would be a great help if this cutter doesnít drag the cheese over the pizza.

Best of luck to you when you have time to try out this formula,  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 05, 2010, 05:56:34 PM
The double batch of poolish and final dough went well today.  I donít know if my eyes were deceiving me or if the poolish looked like it had more bubble activity.  In my opinion it did look like there were more bubbles than other weeks. 
I took half of the poolish and scaled it and then incorporated into the final dough.  I had placed my water containers in the deli case when I got to market because it was warmer today.  My deli case was 36 degrees F.  I took the temperature of the poolish after dividing and it already had risen to 44 degrees F. The left over poolish was then put back in the deli case. The ambient room temperature at market was 72 degrees F.  After I was ready to mix the water with the poolish the temperature of the water was 66 degrees F. 
For the first batch I just took some poolish out and weighed it, and then added it to the water.  For the second batch I added water to the poolish and then poured them both into the mixer and still had to scrap some bits of poolish out. 
Final dough temperatures on both batches were 66 degrees F.
I took 1 dough ball from each batch and placed poppy seeds on them to see what results there will be tomorrow. 
The dough on both batches seemed more sticky today and I canít figure that out, but will wait until tomorrow and see what happens. 

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 05, 2010, 05:57:21 PM
rest of pictures from today
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 06, 2010, 10:11:43 PM
The double batch of the poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough of 30 lbs. worked out well today. 

The pizza board and cutter rocker blade also worked out well.  :) The cutter rocker blade really made the pies easy to cut.  The pizza board really was a nifty piece of equipment.  The only problem I had with the pizza board is I didnít realize how easily the pizza would slide off, and after I took this picture of the whole pie, I went to transfer it to the deli case and it just slid off and dropped on my pants and shoe.  The cutter rocker blade was so sharp, my daughter cut her finger on it.

The poppy seeds did move and stayed about the same the rest of today.

I also am still trying a Take and Bake and did parbake a pizza today and brought it home to try to see what happens.  The last three pictures are of the Take and Bake pizza.  I only let it in the oven until the bottom seemed to get partly finished.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 06, 2010, 10:13:01 PM
rest of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 07, 2010, 10:40:33 PM
I baked the Take and Bake pizza tonight at 425 degrees F for 9 minutes.  In my opinion doing the parbake really helped to make this Take and Bake pizza easy to bake at home.

What I am still trying to figure out is what temperature this kind of pizza should be baked and if I baked it long enough.  The flavor of the pizza was good, and the crust had crunch, but the flavor of the sauce didn't stand out like the pizzas I baked at market.  Still trying to figure out why the flavors of the sauce changed.  ::)  Back to the drawing board.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 12, 2010, 04:48:44 PM
The double batch of poolish seemed to have bigger bubbles today.  I wanted to see what the PH of the poolish was and also the PH of the final dough.  The poolish PH was 5.51 and the final dough PH was 6.14.  I really donít know what that means, but might measure both of these from week to week to be able to find out more and maybe research on what the PH in dough means. The one picture is of the whole poolish and the next picture is after half of the poolish was taken out of the container.  Other two pictures are of the PH meter in the poolish and then in the final dough.

I also had intentionally left a 5 oz. dough ball of the poolish preferment of the Lehmann dough that had been frozen 3 weeks ago at market for two weeks in the deli case to see if there was any possibility that the dough could be used after that length of time.  I will try that dough tomorrow.  On the picture of the dough ball in a plastic bag, it really looks slack.

This will be my last test on the double batch of the poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough.  If everything still goes well this week, then I am going to make all my dough this way.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 13, 2010, 10:30:47 PM
The poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough worked out well, again.  The final dough temperature yesterday was 63 degrees, before going into the deli case.  I canít still figure this out how this dough works so well when the final dough temperatures are so low.   ::) Steve (Ev) was at market today and tasted the Sicilian Pie made with this dough and also the regular pie.  He said he really liked the taste of the pies made with the poolish preferment.  I gave him a dough ball to try at home.  I got so busy talking to him about making pizzas and also trying to make the pizzas, that I forgot to take one pie out of the oven.  I should have taken a picture of that pie.  I burnt it.  :o  I showed Steve how easy this dough is to open and also how it has many bubbles in the dough when opening the dough.  I really like this dough.  The last pictures is of how the dough looks when opening the dough.

These are some of the pictures from today.  Some of these pies had blisters. I still canít figure that out either.  ::)

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 14, 2010, 12:59:45 AM
I used my camera to make this video of making the Panini dough using the poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough.  The video is kind of shaky because I was using my one hand to hold the camera and the other hand to handle the Panini dough.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eneCA2iteGw

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on April 14, 2010, 08:58:00 AM
Norma,

I would imagine that you are quite pleased that you have hit your groove with the Lehmann poolish-based NY style dough formulation and can offer a quality, highly-differentiated product reliably and consistently that dovetails with your unique business arrangement and hours. You've done a nice job showing the evolution of that product in this thread and how everything has to fit together in a cohesive, logical way. You've trained your dough well  :chef:.

What's next on your agenda?

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 14, 2010, 10:32:13 AM
Peter,

I am pleased that this poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough has worked out well.  I want to thank you and everyone else on this forum that help by posting to keep raising the bar when they try to make a pizza.  It has helped me immensely to want to strive for a better pizza.  I have been getting customers that say they heard I have the greatest tasting crust around our area..  I know I am only a small place, but that is a direct tribute to this forum and anyone that posts or contributes.  With each pizza that is made using the same formula and same setting, I can see a difference in each pizza.  I am starting to believe pizza are like fingerprints.  No pizza is exactly like the other. 

I am really happy with this formula and how it has evolved.  I might need some more tweaking when summer comes, but last week the ambient temperature inside my market stand on market day was 92 degrees F, and the dough still worked out well.  ;D

Thanks for saying Iíve done a nice job.  It has been a journey, but a pleasant one.  Each step helps me to learn different things.  Hopefully I will be able to help other people in their journey in trying to make a better pizza.

I still am trying to make a Take and Bake Pizza with this formula and will test that for awhile.

I donít know at this time, what is on the agenda next. Do you have any ideas that you would want me to try?

Thanks for your help,

Norma 

Here is what happened with the old dough ball:
I used the old dough ball to make a pizza, that had been left in the deli case for 2 weeks.  This dough ball had been frozen before.  On the pictures it shows a normal dough ball that was used this week and then the old dough ball to compare side by side. These dough balls are used to make Panini.

After patting the dough ball with some flour the dough ball took on a whiter color and was easy to open.  It was then dressed with sauce and mozzarella.  As you can see there wasnít any oven spring and the color of the rim and bottom crust remained white. 

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on April 14, 2010, 03:24:21 PM
I donít know at this time, what is on the agenda next. Do you have any ideas that you would want me to try?

Norma,

I'm not sure that there is a lot that you can do with your current dough formulation other than to possibly tweak it, as by altering the amount of poolish or its hydration. However, that would entail doing more math again to figure out what goes into the poolish and the Final Mix. You perhaps could try other forms of preferments but that would take you into a new cycle of experiments and tests. Maybe down the road that is something that might be considered.

From the business side, I don't think you have the volume to support multiple doughs for multiple pizza types. I would be inclined to think more about product extensions of your current poolish-based Lehmann dough. You have already done that to a great degree with your Sicilian pan pizza, calzones, panini, breadsteaks, pinwheel pizzas, take-and-bake and a few others that escape me at the moment. Of course, the Lehmann dough lends itself to all kinds of toppings and specialty items, which is a different type of extension if there is a sufficient market for specialty pizzas.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 14, 2010, 04:16:49 PM
Peter,

I am satisfied with my current formula.  :)  I just meant are there any other experiments on a small scale basis that you wanted me to conduct in the deck oven, for a formula that is already established, to see if a deck oven works differently. Sorry, I didnít clarify that better in my writing.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Ev on April 15, 2010, 11:57:43 AM
Norma, Thanks for the dough. I made a pie with it for lunch yesterday and it was really really good.(dare I say great?) I didn't get a photo so I'm afraid I cannot share the visual results. It was definitely a bit different from my usual. More airy and crisper around the edge. I think it's a definite improvement to your old recipe. I liked it enough to try a four dough, pre-ferment batch myself yesterday. I made the preferment in the morning and let it out for about 5 hours. It was very active at that point, so I went ahead and made the final dough and put it in the fridge right away. Today, my dough are much more active than my normal dough would be at this point. I'll probably use two tonight and save the other two til Sat. or Sunday.
 I'm looking forward to working for you next week. Thanks for the job.
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Ev on April 15, 2010, 12:01:18 PM
On second thought, maybe I'll bring one or two to the market next week and try them in your oven, if that's ok with you.
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 15, 2010, 12:20:14 PM
Steve,

Your more than welcome for the dough.  Itís great to hear how the dough worked out for you.  I will be waiting to hear how your recent experiment is going with your dough, now.  I also think this dough is an improvement over my other dough.  I really like how it handles and bakes.  I think it give an Artisan touch and also tastes great with all the bubbles that form when opening the dough. 

It will be great to work with an experienced pizza maker like yourself.   :chef: Maybe with our two heads together with can come up with great ideas.  ::) They always say two heads are better than one. I look forward to working with you.  We will probably do different tests with dough to see what can happen with different formulas.  Usually each week I do some kind of test on a dough to see what can happen. 

If you can get your dough to last that long, bring it along and you can try it in the oven.  We should have a great time with all the taste testers I have at market.

Thanks for telling me how the dough worked for you at home.  Did you bake it in your oven or your modified BBQ grill?

Just hope I don't get into talking about making pizza so much and that I burn my pie, like this week.  LOL  You were right, I should have taken a picture of that burnt pizza ,that was thrown in the sink.

Thanks,

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 18, 2010, 10:27:07 PM
Panouzzo could be another use for the poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough.  I made 3 Panouzzoís from one dough ball today.  These are the pictures of the Panouzza.

I also talked to Steve (Ev) today and he said he had baked the dough in his home oven.  He also said he made some more pies with the poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough he has made at home and really liked the pies.

For the dead looking dough in reply #399 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg95680.html#msg95680   I just wanted anyone that is following this thread to know, even though the dough was white and didnít have any oven spring, the taste of the crust was amazing.  It surprised me.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on April 18, 2010, 10:41:25 PM
Norma,

I was salivating over your Panouzzo (you don't have to thank me for salivating  :-D). Is the Panouzzo something that you might consider offering at market or is it too much a specialty product to sell profitably?

With respect to your "dead" dough, the byproducts of fermentation that are largely responsible for final crust flavor will survive even as the dough is dying. As long as you can handle the dough and actually be able to form a skin and bake a pizza with it, you will get some really nice crust flavors. You might not get the crust color and the crust might be a bit crackery, but the flavors will survive.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 18, 2010, 10:54:55 PM
Norma,

I was salivating over your Panouzzo (you don't have to thank me for salivating  :-D). Is the Panouzzo something that you might consider offering at market or is it too much a specialty product to sell profitably?

With respect to your "dead" dough, the byproducts of fermentation that are largely responsible for final crust flavor will survive even as the dough is dying. As long as you can handle the dough and actually be able to form a skin and bake a pizza with it, you will get some really nice crust flavors. You might not get the crust color and the crust might be a bit crackery, but the flavors will survive.

Peter

Peter,

LOL..you are making me laugh, again.  The Panouzzo could be an item I would consider at market.  You could divide one dough ball to make 3,4, or even 5 Panouzzo's.  I will try the dough at market and see if I get the same results. I think they would be profitable and I have ingredients now for Panini's, so it might be a possibility.  The Panouzzo were really good.  This preferment dough is so amazing.  You can make almost any dough related product with it...it is like the energizer Bunny...it just keeps going...LOL

For the almost dead dough, I was amazed that is still was easy to form, but then it was only 12". 

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 21, 2010, 07:17:18 AM
Steve (Ev) and I had a good time working together, yesterday.  He is better opening up the dough than I am. I open up the dough on the marble slab and he opens up the dough on the peel. I will have to watch him more and develop some of his techniques.

Sometimes customers say the funniest things and yesterday was no exception.  A woman was looking at the pizzas in the display case, with her children.  She saw Steve pouring some water into the sauce to make it thinner.  The water jug was the one that had been labeled Queens, NY water.  She then said, no wonder your pies look so good.  Steve and I just looked at each other and laughed.  She then proceeded to buy some pizza.  She said she had lived in Queens, NY for a long while and she couldnít get any pizzas around here that tasted like NY.  After she ate her slice, she thought the pizza tasted like NY pizzas. I thanked her and she then took a menu and business card.  I explained to Steve about how I had tested NY water in some pizzas a while ago. We both had a good laugh about that one.  I guess it is mind over matter. Of course we didnít tell her one  way or another if we used NY water.  :-D

We tested some of Steveís dough in my oven.  He had added whey to his preferment dough.  The taste of his crust was amazing.  :)

These are a few pictures of my poolish pizza and some cheesy breadsticks from yesterday.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Ev on April 21, 2010, 09:32:57 AM
Norma,

 Thanks again for the job. I had a great time working for you in the pizza biz for the first time ever. Thanks also for the kind words about my dough. I'm glad you liked it. I'll definitely be using whey again. In fact, I froze a gallon last week for future use.
 I've told most of the people I know that I was working for you, so maybe that will help drum up some more business for you.
 I'll probably go to Bova on the next rainy day. Too much outside work to get away right now. I'll look for that sauce when I go.
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 21, 2010, 01:00:36 PM
Steve,

Your more than welcome.  Iím sure you could see that even operating a small one day pizza business, can get very busy at times. Trying to keep the other products made, opening the dough, putting toppings on the pizzas, keeping the customers happy, refilling the sauce, cheese, napkins, doing dishes, watching the products in the oven, giving change, reheating the slices, filling the water in the display case, getting drinks, and all the other things that need to be done, can make you tired at the end of the day. Even with both of us knowing how to make pizzas, we even had trouble keeping pizzas in the display case at the busy times.  Wait until this summer when the tourists and school children are there.  You are in for an experience. LOL Itís a lot different than making pizza at home.

Thanks for saying your would get me some sauce for the boardwalk pizza.

You did a great job and also have a great passion for making pizza.  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: hotsawce on April 23, 2010, 09:47:42 PM
Whey in the preferment? Can you explain exactly what kind of whey and the difference in taste? That sounds interesting.
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 23, 2010, 10:02:53 PM
Whey in the preferment? Can you explain exactly what kind of whey and the difference in taste? That sounds interesting.

hotsawce,

Steve made some fresh mozzarella and had the whey left from making the mozzarella.  I will let Steve answer if he sees this, on how he went about using the whey and what amount he used.

Steve did give me some of his mozzarella he made and I just ate some tonight.  It was great.  ;D

I did make a pizza with whey before and really did  like it, but I don't know where I posted it.  ???  I will look and see where I posted about using the whey in dough. 

Steve dough and crust using the preferment and whey was delicious.  I think he made the dough on Thursday and then cold fermented it until Tuesday. 

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on April 23, 2010, 10:25:36 PM
I'd be curious to know whether the liquid whey was added to the final mix and whether the total water was adjusted to reflect the fact that liquid whey comprises about 93% water (based on data from http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts/dairy-and-egg-products/102/2). Whey is sometimes added to doughs to get increased crust coloration. There is a good article on whey and other dairy ingredients used in baked goods at http://www.bakingbusiness.com/en/Features/Formulating%20and%20R%20and%20D/2010/2/Milks%20Magic.aspx.

Member Crider has also used fresh dairy whey in dough, as he noted at Reply 26 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9854.msg90329/topicseen.html#msg90329.

Peter

Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 23, 2010, 10:37:43 PM
I'd be curious to know whether the liquid whey was added to the final mix and whether the total water was adjusted to reflect the fact that liquid whey comprises about 93% water (based on data from http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts/dairy-and-egg-products/102/2). Whey is sometimes added to doughs to get increased crust coloration. There is a good article on whey and other dairy ingredients used in baked goods at http://www.bakingbusiness.com/en/Features/Formulating%20and%20R%20and%20D/2010/2/Milks%20Magic.aspx.

Peter



Peter,

I will PM Steve and see if he can answer your questions.  Last week Steve looked over the poolish preferment formula I had at market and said he was going to try it at home.  When he brought the dough to market Tuesday to try in my oven, he then told me he had added the whey to the formula.  I couldn't believe his dough lasted that long, but the dough really looked great and handled well. As I said before, the taste of his crust was delicious.

Norma

hotsawce,

Here is when I used whey in the dough. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10213.msg90845.html#msg90845

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 28, 2010, 08:17:10 AM
Another use for the poolish preferment dough can be used for ďRootís Market Day Pizza.Ē  I decided at the last minute to try and enter a contest by Pizza Fusion, for ďEarth Saving PizzaĒ and used this poolish dough, I normally use at market.  The market day pizza is the one that has the veggies. 

The first picture of the pizza with pepperoni is the one I make at market each week and the picture was taken yesterday. 

The second pizza of the pizza with pepperoni was Steveís poolish preferment dough with his whey in the final dough mix.

The picture of Steveís Garlic Alfredo Sauce with jalapenos and yellow and red onions was his poolish preferment with whey used for the total weight of the water. 

The taste of both of his crusts were amazing and both of his pizzas tasted great!

The picture of the Santa Sweets was taken at market yesterday.  It can be seen that the price at market for these tomatoes are 1.50.

Steve said he would look under this thread and answer questions about the whey in the dough.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 28, 2010, 08:19:16 AM
rest of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on April 28, 2010, 10:29:06 AM
Norma,

Thanks for keeping us up to date on your progress with the Lehmann poolish-based pizzas. They all look very inviting.

It would be interesting to see photos of Steve's (Ev's) pizzas using the same recipe (as modified to use the whey liquid) but baking the pizzas in his home oven.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 28, 2010, 10:48:20 AM
Peter,

There is always something new to use this Lehmann poolish based dough for.  :)  My local pizza man just gave me a new idea to try.  In the coming weeks I will also try that.  I talked to him Monday night when I was in his business.  I showed him some pictures on my camera of the pizzas I am now making.  He said, what an improvement from the pizzas I used to make. He also asked me if I will share some ideas and give him some dough balls to try.  I am going to take him some dough balls and see what he thinks.  He hasnít tasted my pizzas.  He is too busy running his pizza business. Seven days a week is a long week.  :(

Steve said he is going to be making pizzas at home this weekend.  Hopefully he will be able to provide some pictures.  He bakes some pies in his home oven and also in his outdoor grill.

Thanks,

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Mad_Ernie on April 28, 2010, 11:44:54 AM
That crust looks amazing, Norma.  Very colorful toppings, too. 

I don't think I can hold off now until Saturday for pizza!  :-D

-ME
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 28, 2010, 12:15:45 PM
That crust looks amazing, Norma.  Very colorful toppings, too. 

I don't think I can hold off now until Saturday for pizza!  :-D

-ME

ME,

Thanks for saying that the crust looks amazing.  I really like this dough.  LOL..I will be looking forward to seeing you post your next pie.  :)

Thanks,

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 28, 2010, 08:04:46 PM
Steve gave me a copy of his formula he used for the whey, for both the whey in the final dough and also total whey in the formula.  He said I could post it.

If you can't read it, let me know if someone is interested, I will figure it out and then post the numbers.  I just scanned the paper he gave me.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Ev on April 28, 2010, 10:46:55 PM
Norma,



It would be interesting to see photos of Steve's (Ev's) pizzas using the same recipe (as modified to use the whey liquid) but baking the pizzas in his home oven.

Peter

Peter,
 
 I'll try to post these at some point. I have 6 balls of this recipe in the fridge but I won't be using them until Sat. 
 At that point they'll be almost a week old. Hopefully they won't over-ferment by then.
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Ev on April 28, 2010, 11:01:51 PM
Actually Norma, Those pictures are not accurate. Both the pepperoni pies are yours. The last one, with the red and yellow peppers is my standard Lehmann style dough recipe, except using only only whey.  Not shown is the garlic alfredo pie, using a poolish made with water( about 1/3) and the remainder(about 2/3) of the liquid being whey.
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on April 28, 2010, 11:05:28 PM
Steve,

I couldn't make out the numbers that Norma posted but it looks like you used the preferment dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/preferment_calculator.html. Did you use a natural poolish to make your version of the Lehmann NY style dough recipe that Norma has been using?

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 28, 2010, 11:05:50 PM
Actually Norma, Those pictures are not accurate. Both the pepperoni pies are yours. The last one, with the red and yellow peppers is my standard Lehmann style dough recipe, except using only only whey.  Not shown is the garlic alfredo pie, using a poolish made with water( about 1/3) and the remainder(about 2/3) of the liquid being whey.

Steve,

Hmm, I have to look though my pictures, again.  Didn't we make your one pie with pepperoni? Thanks for correcting me on the amount of whey you did use.  I had it written down, but must have messed it up.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 28, 2010, 11:16:02 PM
Steve,

Now I remember what other kind of pie you made.  I thought I also took a picture of that pie, but it isn't in my pictures.  I think I continued to be a wreck yesterday, because of that darn video.   :-D  I was up most of the night Monday worrying about it.  Hope this week goes better.  ;D

Thanks for refreshing my memory,

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Ev on April 28, 2010, 11:48:54 PM
Peter,
 I used the calculator without totally understanding how it works. Using Normas' recipe as a guide, I loaded numbers and jockeyed them around until it looked right. I get hung up at the point where it asks for the preferments percentage of water. Anyway, what I came up with is basically this for a 4 ball batch, 16 inch pie single ball weight of 550 g

Total Flour   1342.59 g
Total Water(60%) 805.56 g
Total IDY .112%
Toal Salt 1.75%
Total O,oil 2%

Pre-f :
 Flour 277.2 g
water 282.8 g
IDY  1/4 t

Final Dough:
Pre-f
plus
Flour 1065.39
whey 422.76 g
IDY 1/4 t
salt & oil
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 01, 2010, 10:55:12 PM
Yesterday I made enough poolish for 60 lbs. of dough.  The ambient temperature at market was 68 degrees F.  The water temperature was also 68 degrees F. I mixed the poolish in the Hobart mixer with the flat beater. The poolish was then put into two Cambro containers. The poolish only took 40 minutes in the Hatco Unit to bubble enough for it to then go into the deli case.  The Hatco unit temperature was set at 110 degrees F.

Seems like my work is getting easier.   :)

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Steam on May 02, 2010, 05:57:18 PM
Hi everyone, great site! How could I scale Norma's Tom lehmann's recipe without the poolish for 15 23oz dough balls. Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 02, 2010, 06:13:56 PM
Welcome Steam,

This is a great site, with so many pizzas.  :) I am not good at the math part to be able to figure out Tom Lehmann's formula for 15 23 oz. dough balls, but am sure someone else can figure it out for you.  What kind of thickness factor will you be using?  Also do you have any special flour in mind?  Do you want to make a NY style dough?

Thanks and I am sure you will like it here,

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on May 02, 2010, 06:35:50 PM
Steam,

Norma can correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that the basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation that she has been using, before converting it to a poolish format, is the one shown in the top one of the three sections at Reply 225 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg90226.html#msg90226. If you enter the baker's percents from that dough formulation into the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html, using the Dough Weight option, and completing the entries required, you should be able to come up with the information you requested. If you will be using a stand mixer, you may want to use a bowl residue compensation (to compensate for minor dough losses during preparation of the dough) of 1.5%.

You won't need to use a thickness factor if you already know the dough ball weight you want, but the type of flour you use will be an important factor in the results you get using the dough formulation.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 02, 2010, 06:56:19 PM
Steam,

Peter is right on the formula I was using before the poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough.

This is the Tom Lehmann dough forumla I was using when I started making pizza.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8341.msg71965.html#msg71965 I did then up the hydration.

Hope this helps,

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Steam on May 02, 2010, 09:55:44 PM
I'll be using a old Hobart 30 qt mixer that only mixes on the second setting because the knob has been soldered. As for the flour I have access to the local pizza distributor called Labrada distributors and they have a high gluten flour witch I guess they get from the states and repackage under there name. I'm looking for a NY style dough with good dough elasticity. The dough I've been doing has been wrong all along until Norma told me about this site. The dough I made, used an empty can of Saporito sauce to measure the flour so I would put 3 cans of flour in the mixer with 1 can of water 5 ounces of sugar and 5 ounces of salt 2 ounces of granulated garlic 2.5 ounces of IDY and 5 ounces of vegetable oil, that alone is so wrong on so many levels. First I would put the dry ingredients including IDY in the bowl next the oil, water sifted it then added the flour and then to get mixed. After 8-10 minutes I would cut and ball about 13-15 dough balls but they would rise within 15-minutes. The dough would never be the same maybe really dry or really moist. Im trying to learn and atleast I've found this forum thanks to Norma and appreciate any help I can get.

Sean T. 
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 02, 2010, 10:36:42 PM
Sean,

I only have a 20 qt. Hobart mixer and only mix on speed one.  In regards to the flour, I am not familiar with what kind of protein content is in your flour.  Are you making this dough for a commercial pizza business?  If you are in my opinion you should get a scale that would weigh out your ingredients, and then learn how to manage your dough. I cold ferment my dough for one day, but others cold ferment for longer.

If you want to start a new thread and ask all these questions, others will also help you.  I am not an expert, but there are many people on this forum that are willing to help you achieve your goals.

I'll be using a old Hobart 30 qt mixer that only mixes on the second setting because the knob has been soldered. As for the flour I have access to the local pizza distributor called Labrada distributors and they have a high gluten flour witch I guess they get from the states and repackage under there name. I'm looking for a NY style dough with good dough elasticity. The dough I've been doing has been wrong all along until Norma told me about this site. The dough I made, used an empty can of Saporito sauce to measure the flour so I would put 3 cans of flour in the mixer with 1 can of water 5 ounces of sugar and 5 ounces of salt 2 ounces of granulated garlic 2.5 ounces of IDY and 5 ounces of vegetable oil, that alone is so wrong on so many levels. First I would put the dry ingredients including IDY in the bowl next the oil, water sifted it then added the flour and then to get mixed. After 8-10 minutes I would cut and ball about 13-15 dough balls but they would rise within 15-minutes. The dough would never be the same maybe really dry or really moist. Im trying to learn and atleast I've found this forum thanks to Norma and appreciate any help I can get.

Sean T. 

Sean,

After rereading your last post, there are different things about your dough formula, that may need to be looked at.  I also had problems when I first starting making the dough for pizza. I had skins that stretched back, dough that over-fermented, dough that was inconsistent and many other problems. There are so many variables that can go into making pizza dough.  Room temperature, water temperature, amount of hydration, levels of IDY, salt levels, finished dough temperature, how long it takes you to ball the dough, method of keeping dough cold, ferment time, bake time and temperature and many other variables can all come into play. I started with a regular scale, but since have switched to a digital scale. The scale now helps me to precisely weigh the ingredients in Bakerís percents. If you are going to be making larger quantities of dough, all these things will come into play even more.

As I said before, if you want to make a NY style pie, start a new thread under NY style or the Newbie section and ask for help. I did post under the Newbie section, when I started making pizza.  It took me a little while, but with the help of this forum I did get my issues with pizza dough resolved. I am still learning and will be for the rest of my life. Explain everything you have explained under this thread.   

At least you have come to the right place to get some of your problems resolved. If you are making your pizza for a business, then you might also want to register at PMQ think tank.

Best of luck,

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Ev on May 03, 2010, 08:09:24 AM
Norma,

Thanks for keeping us up to date on your progress with the Lehmann poolish-based pizzas. They all look very inviting.

It would be interesting to see photos of Steve's (Ev's) pizzas using the same recipe (as modified to use the whey liquid) but baking the pizzas in his home oven.

Peter

Here are the pies I baked on Sunday. The dough was about 8 hours shy of one week old at this point.
 The first two pies were made using water for the poolish and whey for the rest(about 2/3) of the liquid.
 The next two are a basic Lehmann style recipe using whey for 100% of the formula liquid.
 To be honest, I don't think I could tell these apart, flavor-wise. Perhaps the extended fermentation equalized any difference there may have been. Both were soft and tender with an almost creamy, bread like texture. Probably more like American style than N.Y. style.
 After a week, the poolish dough had visabally risen about 30% more, even though it had 50% less yeast.

Sorry I didn't get more detailed in-depth photos. I had a lot of guests over and it was rather hectic.
 
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 03, 2010, 08:33:43 AM
Steve,

Your pies look delicious.  ;D Good to hear the dough didnít over-ferment for you.  You are sure a great manager of your dough. I bet the taste of the crust was delicious after the long ferment.  Most important...did your mother-in-law like your pies?

Thanks for sharing pictures of your pies,

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Ev on May 03, 2010, 08:44:07 AM
Thanks Norma.  Mom said it was the best she ever tasted, but you know how moms can be!  ;)
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on May 03, 2010, 10:03:10 AM
Steve,

Terrific job. Thanks for posting your results.

Can you tell us how you baked the pizzas, i.e., the type of oven, stone position, temperatures, times, etc.?

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Ev on May 03, 2010, 02:14:43 PM
Sure, I baked all these on an American Metalcraft, cordiarite(?), 5/8 x 16 stone, on the lowest position of my Maytag electric oven, pre-heated to 550 for an hour and a half, for eh?, 5 or 6 minutes, tops.
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Ev on May 03, 2010, 02:27:14 PM
Oh, and FWIW, the first pie was Red, Yellow and Orange Sweet Peppers, Then Hormel pepperoni, then plain cheese, then garlic alfredo w/sun-dried tomatoes. All of these pies used Grande East Coast blend Mozz. and 6-in-1 tomatoes, except the garlic alf., which was just a basic jarred Alf. sauce, infused with minced garlic and tomato pesto.
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 03, 2010, 06:11:36 PM
These are just pictures of what my poolish looks like after three days in the deli case, before being incorporated into the final dough.  The last picture is how I store my dough balls when I cold ferment.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 12, 2010, 08:18:49 AM
These are some uses for the poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough.  Someone could also use these in other doughs.  I took some pictures of making the garlic knots and pizza pinwheels.  There are also pictures of the cheesy breadsticks below.  If anyone is interested in how I make these, just let me know and I will also take pictures of the steps to make them.  There are also pizza buns made with the same dough.

The garlic knots are made with a bigger dough ball, than I use for my normal pizzas.  I first open the dough ball, then use a pizza cutter to divide into strips.  Then just roll each strip into a rope, tie them, and cut the ends with a pizza cutter. If you have extra ends after cutting, you can just put these ends together and roll them, also. Place the garlic knots on a screen and bake, until golden brown. Then I dip them into a mixture of fresh herbs (garlic, oregano, basil, and parsley) that I have been processed in the food processor and had microwaved with olive oil until the mixture wilted.  To this mixture I added some more olive oil, butter and margarine.  Then they are either topped with Asiago grated cheese, grated Parmesan cheese, or Romano cheese.  These were topped with grated Asiago cheese.  They can be eaten hot or you can cool them in the refrigerator and reheat them on a screen.

The pizza pinwheels are made by opening a dough ball, dressing with sauce, placing pepperoni on, then mozzarella cheese or a blend and brushing the same mixture of fresh herbs on the top of the dough.  Then just roll the dough, cut with a scissors and place on parchment paper and bake.  These pizza pinwheels also can be eaten hot or cooled down and reheated.  You could also add many different ingredients or herbs before rolling and cutting to create different flavor profiles.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 12, 2010, 08:19:44 AM
garlic knots
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 12, 2010, 08:21:10 AM
pizza pinwheels
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 12, 2010, 08:21:58 AM
pizza pinwheels
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 12, 2010, 08:22:44 AM
cheesy breadsticks
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Jackie Tran on May 12, 2010, 10:56:54 AM
Norma, everything looks fantastic!

Update:  I hate the tortilla creamcheese pinwheels - YUCK!  But pizza pinwheels, now that I can eat.  ;D
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 12, 2010, 11:10:41 AM
Norma, everything looks fantastic!

Tran,

Thanks for the compliment.  :)  This dough is great to make many things.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 17, 2010, 08:49:08 PM


I decided to do a little experiment with this dough that was frozen from last week.  I wanted to see if I could defrost the dough in the microwave and then make hamburger buns out of the dough.  I did defrost the dough in the microwave and then just cut the dough into four pieces. I gently joined the dough together to form a circle and floured them.  I let the four circles sit on the plate for an hour and fifteen minutes at room temperature.  I then melted unsalted butter in a cast iron pan and fried the dough at number 5 on my electric stove.  I was surprised how well the dough rose.  When the dough looked like it was fried enough, I took the buns out and put them into the oven.  I didnít preheat the oven for very long. I just turned it to 500 degrees F for 10 minutes.  I then placed the buns in the oven on the pizza stone for 8 minutes.

I decided to fry hamburgers and make the hamburger patties more like a pizza.  I used fresh herbs, that were microwaved with olive oil and grated before in the food processor.  The hamburgers were dressed with pizza sauce and mozzarella cheese.  I then brushed on the herb dressing on one side of the bun.

I now know I can make hamburger buns with this dough and even microwave the dough from a frozen state.  I would have used my outside grill to make the hamburgers, but it was raining.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 17, 2010, 08:51:07 PM
rest of pictures of hamburger buns

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Glutenboy on May 17, 2010, 09:23:27 PM
Those look FANTASTIC!  :o  Burgers for dinner tonight...
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 17, 2010, 09:30:10 PM
Those look FANTASTIC!  :o  Burgers for dinner tonight...

Glutenboy,

Thanks, they were quite tasty.  Will have to make these again.  You can come over for dinner.. ;D

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 18, 2010, 10:38:31 PM
A member had sent me a PM about how my oven worked a few weeks ago.  Steve and I found the time this week to try and show how the Bakerís Pride GP-61 works.

The dough we were using for this pizza was frozen from last week.  If you look at the other dough sitting in plastic bags, you can see how the dough is fermented.  The dough still works well in making a pizza. The only difference in the final pizza, when using frozen dough is the finished pizza doesnít get as dark on the rim. 

In the first video Steve is opening the dough, dressing the pie, and putting the unbaked pizza in the oven.  We wanted to take a video of the whole process, but decided to take three videos to try to show how the oven works. 

In the second video it just shows the pizza in the oven and I am trying to measure the temperature of the stone.  You can see the temperature varies on the stones, at different places.

In the third video it shows the pizza in the oven and me trying to use the infrared gun, again to measure the temperature.  It can be seen on this video that when the red dot hits the pizza the temperature goes down.  Steve takes the pizza out of the oven in this video and cuts the pizza. You can hear the bottom of the crust crunch when Steve cuts the pizza.  Steve and I show the bottom crust on this video.

Sorry these videos arenít the best, but we were just trying to show how the pizza bakes in the oven.

If there are any questions, just ask.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 18, 2010, 11:46:54 PM
Here are the links if anyone is interested in seeing these videos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NY73hZTQGA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzEs2YSUrYU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdSZrtZcMJ0

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: brayshaw on May 19, 2010, 07:02:00 AM
Brilliant! thanks Norma, I'll take a look later when I get home.

Paul
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 22, 2010, 09:32:01 PM
I found another use for this poolish preferment for the Lehmann dough. Zeppoles.  ;D I defrosted another dough ball this evening.  This time I looked how much time it took to defrost the frozen dough ball.  The dough ball was time defrosted three different times for a total of three minutes. 

The dough ball was then left on the table for Ĺ hour.  I then cut the dough ball into pieces and deep-fried the dough. The temperature of the oil was 365 degrees F. The deep-fried dough was then lightly dusted with confectionary sugar.

Sure doesnít taste like pizza dough. The zeppoles turn out nice, light and airy.  Something like a donut, but better in my opinion.  I always liked Zeppoles, so now I found an easy way to make them.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 22, 2010, 09:33:22 PM
rest of the pictures of Zeppoles

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 22, 2010, 10:05:36 PM
Two more pictures, after the Zeppoles cooled down.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 26, 2010, 08:21:52 AM
These are just some pictures from yesterdays pies.  First pie was from a frozen dough ball.  Cheesy breadstick, pepperoni pie from frozen dough, and  Sicilian pie from same dough. 

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 26, 2010, 08:22:43 AM
rest of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on May 26, 2010, 08:48:26 AM
Norma,

Everything looks great. Can you summarize what lessons you have learned in using frozen dough? Also, at what stage do you put the dough balls into the freezer?

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 26, 2010, 10:05:04 AM
Norma,

Everything looks great. Can you summarize what lessons you have learned in using frozen dough? Also, at what stage do you put the dough balls into the freezer?

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for saying everything looks great.  It has taken me a few months to try and learn how this dough behaves. First with learning how to make the poolish, proof times of the poolish and then mixing the final dough.  I have learned this dough needs a lower final dough temperature if I am going to be using it all day long at market.  I usually strive for a final dough temperature of around 73 degrees F. It can quickly overferment in higher temperatures, which I just learned yesterday.  Steve and I tried to open a dough ball that was left on the counter for about 2  hours.  The dough opened fairly decent, but developed some thin spots.  When Steve placed the pie in the oven, the thin spots quickly stuck to the oven and we had a mess with that pie.  Lesson learned not to keep this dough out to long, when the temperatures are higher. 

As for the frozen dough, I normally make more dough than I predict I might need.  For the final dough that was made Monday and left either in the deli case or pizza prep refrigerator, it is taken to the freezer at the end of the evening and frozen. The time frame from when I mixed the final dough, which is then left at market, to when it is put into the freezer is about 31 hours.  The freezer isnít a freezer that defrosts itself.  The freezer is one that needs defrosted by turning off the freezer and then getting rid of the ice that is on the coils.  I find I could use the frozen dough for two weeks, with decent results, although I almost always use it within a week.  I usually use the frozen dough up quickly in the morning or either try experiments at home with the frozen dough.  I also have found I can defrost the dough in the microwave by using time defrost for a total time of 3 minutes, by putting my microwave on defrost at 1 minute intervals.  About the only difference I can see in the frozen dough is the crust doesnít seem to get as brown as when using the freshly made dough in making regular pizzas..  The frozen dough doesnít seem to make any difference in making a Sicilian pizza or when using it for cheesy breadsticks or other items I sell using the frozen dough. I still donít understand that, but will watch and see what happens.  This dough can also be left to defrost in my home refrigerator or left at room temperature to defrost.

I am going to keep on experimenting with this frozen dough to see what kind of results I can get and keep notes on what happens. I also want to try out some other ideas I have on what other kind of pizzas related products can be used with this dough.  As the temperatures get higher here there might be some different results.  Yesterday was near 90 degrees F, so that was probably why the frozen dough behaved different.  This dough might be like some of the other doughs I tried and had to use them right out of the deli case without a warm-up.  Time will tell if that is so. 
I really like this dough and found it can be very versatile for many things.  In future experiments I will report if I have different findings. 

As the weather gets warmer, I might need to add cold water to the final dough mix.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 28, 2010, 08:43:46 AM
I decided to try out a Pizzette after reading pizzanapoletana thread about them.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1246.msg11166.html#msg11166

I used my standard frozen dough.  The steps I took in making this Pizzette were to defrost the frozen dough in my microwave, cut the dough into four pieces with a knife, lightly dust each dough ball with flour, then form them into circles trying not to disturb the rim.  The dough was then left out covered for Ĺ hour.  I put out grated mozzarella, Parmesan cheese, heated pizza sauce, and fresh herbs from my garden.  The herbs were fresh basil, fresh parsley, and Arugula.
I wanted to see how a fried pizza tasted. 

I used a temperature of 350 degrees F to fry the dough.  The dough quickly rose when placed into the hot oil.  The dough was turned over a few times with tongs, until the dough was a nice brown color.  When the Pizzetteís were taken out of the fryer, they were then drained on paper towels.  While they were still hot, grated mozzarella was put on the Pizzetteís next, then sauce, and some with Parmesan cheese. 

I then decided to decorated a few and call them Fried Pizza Men, because some of the dough looked like faces.  The fresh herbs were used to decorate them.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11084.msg99669.html#msg99669

I really enjoyed the Pizzetteís.  They were nice and light and something different than regular pizza.  I have a few more ideas of what to experiment with when using this frozen dough.  Does any members have different ideas as what they might of tried for something different for using pizza dough?

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 28, 2010, 08:45:14 AM
more pictures
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 28, 2010, 08:46:47 AM
more pictures
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 28, 2010, 08:48:08 AM
more pictures
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on May 28, 2010, 10:13:37 AM
I have a few more ideas of what to experiment with when using this frozen dough.  Does any members have different ideas as what they might of tried for something different for using pizza dough?


Norma,

If you combine a few Lehmann dough balls and bake the combined dough solid and rock hard, you will have a very nice doorstop. With your skills, I am sure that you can decorate it to fit any room decor. Or, if you form a thin skin and bake it without anything on it, you can make a Frisbee-like disc. You will have to be careful, however, if you have a dog retrieve the disc because the dog will find the taste so good that there may be some parts of the disc missing by the time it is brought back to you.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 28, 2010, 10:53:27 AM
Norma,

If you combine a few Lehmann dough balls and bake the combined dough solid and rock hard, you will have a very nice doorstop. With your skills, I am sure that you can decorate it to fit any room decor. Or, if you form a thin skin and bake it without anything on it, you can make a Frisbee-like disc. You will have to be careful, however, if you have a dog retrieve the disc because the dog will find the taste so good that there may be some parts of the disc missing by the time it is brought back to you.

Peter

Peter,

LOL, you ideas are too funny.   :-D  I do have two dogs here at home and they do like the Zeppoles, because of the confectionary sugar that was sprinkled on them, but they donít like my regular pizzas, only if I give them some pepperoni or other meat that might be added for a pizza. 

What I like about these frozen dough balls are they can be quickly made into many things.

Next try with this dough might be donuts.  Maybe other members will give me some more ideas of what to use the frozen dough for.  :P

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 29, 2010, 09:01:20 PM
I tried Artisan Doughnuts with this frozen dough.  I wanted to try a little something different with this experiment.  I wanted to see if I timed cook the frozen dough for 1 minute, if the yeast still would be okay.  When I timed cooked the dough for 1 minute at high power, there developed a big bubble in the one side of the dough.  I thought, that isnít good.  My microwave is an old model, from GE.  In my former life I worked at RCA for 15 years.  They had a family store and I could purchased RCA items or GE items, a lot cheaper there.  It is a lot bigger than the newer models and doesnít have a turn table, but the microwave has never broken down.  I then just time defrosted the dough for 1 minute.  The part that had a big bubble became tough, so I cut it off with a scissors. 

I floured the dough. The dough was then opened like a pizza.  I couldnít find my doughnut cutter.  I think I had it at market to experiment with.  I just use a big cup and another coffee measuring container to make the circle and then the hole. I did flour the doughnuts and holes again before placing on parchment paper.

After I cut all the doughnuts out, there was leftover dough.  I reballed the leftover dough and left it sit for about 10 minutes.  Then I stretched it again.  It was harder to stretch than the first time, but I managed to get two more doughnuts and some holes.

I heated the deep-fryer and fried the Artisan Doughnuts.  What surprised me the most was the dough that was reballed became more airy and the doughnuts were higher when fried.  I donít really understand what happened, but when I was opening the dough for the second time, it didnít want to stretch very well, so that might be why it became higher.

The finished doughnuts was either glazed, sprinkled with sugar or cinnamon and sugar.  I decorated one that was glazed to remind me of the problems I had in this thread with all the snow and coldness.  I donít really like when it gets hot, but I will take it over all that snow and coldness.  The best thing about summer for me is I really like to work outside.  I like to play in the dirt almost as much as I like making dough.  I guess there is something about the smell of dirt and the smell of dough that I really like. 

There was one other thing I wanted to experiment with this dough.  I covered the dough on the parchment paper with wax paper to see if it would keep the dough moist.  It did.

If anyone has anymore ideas for this dough or frozen dough, let me know and I will experiment with the idea.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 29, 2010, 09:02:32 PM
rest of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 30, 2010, 09:51:20 PM
I tried a Stromboli with a frozen dough ball today. I never made a rolled Stromboli before, only something I call a Stromboli with about the same filling, but it is more like a Calzone.  The dough was time defrosted the same way I did it before at one minute intervals for a total of three minutes.  This time the dough wasnít completely defrosted in the middle. It was kinda hard in the middle. I decided to try and use the dough that had some frost in the middle, to see if this would have any effect on the final product.  I kept gently pressing on the center, on both sides of the dough, until the dough felt softer.  I had no idea how breaking up these ice crystals were going to affect this dough.  :-\ Since this dough does get bubbles in the skin, I really pressed the skin out a lot.  Then I opened the dough into a rectangle. 

The dressings that went on the skin were, 1950 Brand blend (part-skim mozzarella, provolone and white cheddar) Pepperoni, Genoa Salami, and Mortadella.  The dough was then rolled up and pinched at the edges and where the dough ended on the skin.  That part was put on the stone. I put slices across the Stromboli and then used a brushed egg wash over the entire top and sides.

The whole Stromboli looked about even when I was finished making it.  It was baked at 400 degrees F.  After ten minutes I looked at the Stromboli and it still looked even all over.  About 15 minutes into the bake, two places on the top of the Stromboli started to develop bubbles.  I quickly grabbed a fork and deflated them.  As can be seen in the finished Stromboli, there are two spots, that had bubbles.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 30, 2010, 09:52:23 PM
rest of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on May 30, 2010, 10:03:47 PM
Norma,

The stromboli looks delicious. I know you were trying out the new cheese blend. Did you like it? And will it find a home at market?

Also, now that you have made so many different things out of the Lehmann preferment dough, which would you say was your favorite?

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 30, 2010, 10:16:59 PM
Norma,

The stromboli looks delicious. I know you were trying out the new cheese blend. Did you like it? And will it find a home at market?

Also, now that you have made so many different things out of the Lehmann preferment dough, which would you say was your favorite?

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for saying the stromboli looks delicious.  I did like the cheese blend.  I will try it on a regular pizza to see if I still like it, compared to my regular blend.  When looking at this cheese blend it all looks the same.  Just by looking at it, I couldn't tell it was a blend of three cheeses.  I really don't know at this time, if this cheese blend will find a home at market.  My regular distributor doesn't carry this cheese blend, at least not that I am aware of. 

As for what my favorite product out Lehmann preferment dough it is a toss-up between the regular pizza and the Zepploes.  I do really like the zeppoles for a dessert item.  Of course I could eat pizza anytime.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 30, 2010, 10:36:29 PM
As a after-thought, I have eaten zeppoles many times at street fairs in NY city.  When using this dough to make the zeppoles, it had all the zepploes from the street fairs beaten in my opinion.  ;D

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 31, 2010, 05:25:34 PM
I decided this morning to do another submission for the monthly challenge,  because there werenít too many submissions.  It was hot here and I really didnít want to turn on the oven, but thought I should do it this morning, as it would be the coolest then.  The weathermen were forecasting for the temperature to be in the 90's with high humidity.

I used frozen dough again, for this pizza I made.  This time it was three little dough balls, that weighed 5.7 ounces a piece..  I decided to a make kind of deep-dish again, but to go about it in a different way.  The last time I made a deep-dish cake, which was sweet.  I wanted a more original pizza this time, so I decided to take one dough ball and roll it out into ropes.  I was thinking, how could I go about making this deep-dish pizza.  I decided after rolling to use a egg wash to try and get the ropes to stay together and then have two layers of ropes.  Well that didnít work, so I rolled again.  I thought about using a cake pan to put the rolls in so they would hold their shape.  I then placed two layers of the ropes of dough in a cake pan.  I put the cake pan on the stone in the oven.  I looked at the dough in the can pan after five minutes and thought ruh roh, Norma, this isnít going to work, either. I took the partially baked dough out of the cake pan.  It was sticking to the bottom a little.  Back with the dough onto the stone.  That worked, but I didnít have two layers of dough anymore.  It was more like one layer.

Not to be deterred, I rolled out some little candles out of the second little dough ball and placed them on the stone.  Then onward to the top of the pizza.  I thought about how much I would need to open the dough to cover the top of the rolls.  I also thought about how the dough might shrink, so I opened it more than the layers.  I used a fork to make the edges like a pie.  The top didnít exactly fit the bottom when the top and bottom were put together.

When the parts of the deep-dish pizza partially cool, I took the egg wash and divided it into 3 small bowls and added food coloring.  Then I painted the top of the deep-dish pizza, candles, and bottom rope and back into the oven so it would look glazed and shiny. 

This deep-dish pizza was put together in three parts.  If I ever try this again, I might go about doing it differently.  I was in a hurry because I needed to get to market.  There were also a big garage sale in two small towns, where I lived when growing up.  I could have done a better job of painting the pizza and also going about planning how to do this.

At least I did get to find some vintage things at the garage sales and also got to market. Whew... was it ever hot at market today.  The temperature inside was 90 degrees F.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 31, 2010, 05:26:50 PM
rest of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 31, 2010, 05:39:42 PM
pictures of deep-dish apart, bottom of top crust, candles, and bottom of ropes.  This pizza was more like bread.  You could make this pizza and then take the top off, and put different topping inside to dip the deep-dish in.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on June 09, 2010, 09:47:50 AM
I decided to make another kind of Sicilian pizza from a frozen dough ball, yesterday.  The frozen dough first pressed out in a deep-dish pan, was left to proof at room temperature for 2 hours covered in a deep-dish pan.  I then brushed a dressing of fresh herbs infused with olive oil on the proffed skin, next pizza sauce, mozzarella cheese, baby spinach, red bell peppers and then fresh grape tomatoes. This Sicilian pizza was baked in a deep-dish pan that was well oiled with olive oil.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on June 09, 2010, 09:49:20 AM
rest of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on June 17, 2010, 10:25:12 PM
I knew there are endless possibilities for this dough.  I decided I wanted to try to make a BBQ Grill oven.  The BBQ grill uses propane gas.  I first asked forum members for ideas for my BBQ grill oven.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11133.msg100346.html#msg100346

Then I started asking questions about firebricks.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11085.msg99686.html#msg99686   

To make a long story short, tonight in the BBQ grill oven, I made this pizza.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11133.msg101405.html#msg101405

These are a few pictures of the finished pizza using the Preferment for the Lehmann dough and baked in the modified BBQ grill oven. 

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on June 17, 2010, 10:28:35 PM
rest of the pictures

I still think this dough can have other uses........I will just have to think about what they could be.  ::)

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: briterian on June 22, 2010, 05:44:34 PM
Nice to see this thread still having a lot of traction. It continues to be my go-to dough and I continue to let it ferment for 4-5 days for maximum flavor and texture. I had one quick question - I have a sourdough starter (italian from sourdo.com) and I have it coming back to life and would like to know how I should alter this recipe to accomodate a sourdo. I'm thinking it can be used a replacment for the poolish step but I need some help on the quantity that I shoiuld use.   Pete?  Norma?  Anyone.

Thanks in advance,
brian

Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on June 22, 2010, 07:07:08 PM
Brian,

I can't speak for the other members, but if you are talking about the dough formulation posted at Reply 149 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg88687.html#msg88687, I wouldn't have any confidence in any answer that I would give you. Converting a two-stage recipe (poolish and final mix), which is based on using commercial yeast in both stages and precise quantities of ingredients and using a combination of room temperature (or controlled) fermentation and cold fermentation, to a natural fermentation version is not a simple exercise in which you simply swap out natural starters or preferments for the commercial yeast quantities. The results will also depend on the condition and readiness of your starter culture which, even within a known type, such as the sourdo.com Italian starters, can be subject to great variability.

There are methods that have been recommended for converting dough recipes that use commercial yeast to natural yeast versions, such as the Simplistic Conversion Technique described at http://www.sourdoughhome.com/convert.html, but I have not personally tried that method to be able to tell you how well it will work. You might also look at http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/howdoiconvertyeastbreadrec.html. Perhaps the member who has had the most experience on the forum with such conversions is Jackie Tran. He might be able to take a look at the dough formulation referenced above and offer some advice. Even then, it may be a challenge to list each ingredient and its quantity for both stages of the process such that you make precisely the desired amount of dough with all of the baker's percents in order. You will perhaps have to do all of the math by hand, or manipulate one of the dough calculating tools to produce the data in the desired format, as I did with the dough formulations I prepared for Norma, since the dough calculating tools were not designed to do what you want to do. The closest tool that might apply to your case would be the preferment dough calculating tool.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: briterian on June 22, 2010, 07:27:50 PM
Thanks for honest reply Pete.   I have this starter ready to go so I might take a stab at this and just do something like take half of the polish amt and substitute my starter and take a walk on the wild side.   
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on June 22, 2010, 10:36:25 PM
Thanks for honest reply Pete.   I have this starter ready to go so I might take a stab at this and just do something like take half of the polish amt and substitute my starter and take a walk on the wild side.   

Brian,

I have never used a starter from sourdough.com.  I am still practicing with this formula. Since the weather has been warmer in our area, I now have found that I can't let the dough out for very long for a warm up or it will start to over ferment.  I have adjusted my final dough temperature lower and in the last few weeks have added a little less yeast to the final mix.  This dough is still excellent in my opinion.  Here are a few pictures I took today of two dough balls after placing in flour and in the start of opening the dough.  You can see there are bubbles in the dough.  I think this then gives the finished crust product nice characteristics.  I like an Artisan crust. 

I hope if you try "walking on the wild side", it will work out for you.  :)  Let us know if you decide to proceed and what results you achieve.

Also one picture of the first two pizzas I made this morning from this dough.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on June 25, 2010, 07:23:56 AM
One picture I forgot to add from Tuesday.  This was the dough left in the deep-dish pan to proof for 1 Ĺ hrs, before baking.  The pan with the dough in was covered with a linen towel for the proof. I brushed herb oil on the dough before I let it proof. Bottom of deep-dish pan is coated with olive oil. This is how I make the Sicilian pizza, from the preferment for the Lehmann dough. The deep-dish pan is then placed on a screen when going into the oven.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on June 25, 2010, 07:29:19 AM
Another attempt to make pizza in my home BBQ set-up with firebricks from last evening.  Changed some things in the BBQ grill set-up.  This dough used was frozen for two weeks and was the preferment for Lehmann dough.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: briterian on June 25, 2010, 08:55:09 AM
Cool 'za.  Norma - can you give us a pic of your bbq setup?
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on June 25, 2010, 09:07:45 AM
Cool 'za.  Norma - can you give us a pic of your bbq setup?

briterian,

This is the link on the BBQ set-up.  I did change it a few times, but had my best results last evening with this set-up.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11133.msg102003.html#msg102003

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: sear on June 25, 2010, 10:54:56 AM
One picture I forgot to add from Tuesday.  This was the dough left in the deep-dish pan to proof for 1 Ĺ hrs, before baking.  The pan with the dough in was covered with a linen towel for the proof. I brushed herb oil on the dough before I let it proof. Bottom of deep-dish pan is coated with olive oil. This is how I make the Sicilian pizza, from the preferment for the Lehmann dough. The deep-dish pan is then placed on a screen when going into the oven.

Norma

Looks great  :)
I gotta start making more sicilian ! , what size pan is that and what was the dough weight ?
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on June 25, 2010, 11:38:37 AM
Looks great  :)
I gotta start making more sicilian ! , what size pan is that and what was the dough weight ?

sear,

Thanks for saying the Sicilian looks great.  This is the formula for a 16" pizza, the weigh of the dough ball and thickness factor.  I use a 14" deep-dish pan for making the Sicilian Pizza.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg90226.html#msg90226

If you are interested in seeing some pictures of how the finished Sicilian pizza looks, these are the links.

Reply #460 2nd and 3rd picture down

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg99521.html#msg99521

and Reply# 362 2nd picture down

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg93960.html#msg93960

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 03, 2010, 07:45:09 AM
Another experiment on my BBQ grill set-up, using frozen, partially thawed, preferment for the Lehmann dough.  In my opinion I like this dough better in the BBQ set-up with firebricks, than when baked in my regular home oven or the oven at market.

The BBQ grill set-up with firebricks gave this dough good grill spring. Rim measured 2" to 2 Ĺ" in some places.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 03, 2010, 07:48:58 AM
rest of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 09, 2010, 07:46:30 AM
I wanted to make another attempt with this dough in the BBQ grill set-up.  I used a small frozen dough ball for this experiment.  This time I let the frozen dough ball defrost at room temperature for about 3 hours.  I have been curious for awhile about using a high bake temperature to achieve a light airy crust.  I have seen at market different times when using this same dough, that if I let the skin a little thicker and let the rim bigger when opening the dough, that there seems to be more open spring, even at lower bake temperatures.  Even the cheesy breadsticks I made seem to have more oven spring at the edges, when placed on parchment paper and then baked on a aluminum pan. The cheesy breadsticks are opened from this same dough in the same manner as my 16" pizzas. I wanted to test out this mystery in my BBQ grill set-up and try baking at a lower temperature to see if I could get the same results.  Since I work with this same dough every week, I am able to observe how this dough behaves in different situations.  Different things about this dough still intrigue me, and I have been working with this same dough for awhile.

This pizza was baked in the BBQ grill set-up with firebricks at 545 degrees F.  That temperature was on the bottom firebricks.  I had let the top firebricks in the steel pan, heat up first, then placed the bottom firebricks in after the top firebricks heated to 550 degrees F.  I used long tongs to place the bottom firebricks on the grill surface.

I waited until the bottom firebricks heated to around 525 degrees F and then opened the skin and dressed the pie.  The pie was dressed with my regular sauce, Foremost Brand of blended cheese, and pepperoni.  When the pie was finished baking it was dressed with Arugula and Opal basil. 

When the pie was baking in the BBQ grill set-up with firebricks at a lower temperature, it seemed to get a nice oven spring.  This pie tasted great.  Jackie Tran and Peter had mentioned to me, if the bottom seems finished to then place a pan or screen underneath the pie, so the bottom wonít get as dark. I place a small cutter pan under the pie when it looked baked enough. Their ideas really helped in this attempt.  The bottom of this pie was a nice color in my opinion and it still had a crisp crunch when eaten.

I still am wondering how a lower bake temperature can get a decent oven spring and if the dough formula does have something to do with oven spring and not high bake temperatures.  If anyone has any ideas on this, let me know.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 09, 2010, 07:58:10 AM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 09, 2010, 08:01:39 AM
end of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 12, 2010, 06:12:07 PM
I uploaded a short video on how this dough looks after coming out of the mixer. This preferment for the Lehmann dough is 61% hydration.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qjAf1xS7d4

I usually weigh, ball, then oil, place in a plastic bag, twist the end pony tail style, then put the dough balls on trays.  When I donít have any help, like today, I just weigh, ball, then oil all the dough balls and place them in plastic bags and onto the dough tray and then cold ferment.

This dough seems to soften, even while balling and then oiling.  On the one picture it can be seen how the dough starts to bubble, after a short while.  It usually takes me about 10 minutes to weigh, ball, oil, and bag 15 lbs. of dough.  This final dough had a final temperature of 73 degrees F.  The poolish is very cold coming out of the deli case, so this helps to keep the dough temperature down.  The one little dough ball I am going to try and experiment on tomorrow, to see if leaving it thicker and leaving more rim, will bake up with more oven spring, like this same dough did in BBQ grill set-up with firebricks.

Few pictures below.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 13, 2010, 10:40:21 PM
I am still wondering about using this same dough and getting a higher oven spring, while using the lower bake temperatures. All these pizzas and breadsticks were baked at 525 degrees F.  To add to the pictures of the dough I mixed yesterday, I took some pictures today of some of the pizzas or breadsticks I baked from this one batch of dough.  One of the first pictures  is of the first pie I baked today.  The pepperoni pizza is of the second pie I made today.  Other pictures are of using the small dough ball and letting the rim bigger and also letting the thickness of the crust thicker to see if baking at lower temperature would give a decent oven spring.  I still think the dough formulation has something to do with decent oven spring. One picture included of cheesy breadsticks and rim of the breadsticks.  These were baked on parchment paper and an aluminum pan.

I did get a better oven spring on the small pizza, which had a bigger rim and thicker crust.  I am still trying to compare my lower temperature bake in the BBQ grill set-up with firebricks to using a lower temperature in my deck oven.

In my tests so far, I think it is the dough formulation that helps in oven spring.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 13, 2010, 10:42:25 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 13, 2010, 10:43:34 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 13, 2010, 10:45:25 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 13, 2010, 10:46:49 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 13, 2010, 10:48:23 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Jackie Tran on July 13, 2010, 11:24:35 PM
Norma as you may be aware, oven spring is likely a result of many factors including oven temps.  Just some I'm thinking off the top of my head are hydration ratios, % and type of yeast, fermentation time and temp, oven temps, appropriate top and bottom heat (ie type of oven), protein content of the flour, bromated vs non bromated flours, thickness of the pizza skin, pressing the rim vs not pressing the rim, environmental factors, the position of the moon and stars (JK), etc, etc. 

If all other factors remain identical, I believe a higher temp will give a better spring but don't know for sure.  I've only notice that I tend to get better spring with higher temps if all other factors are the same.  Having said that, water boils and turns to steam at 212F, so technically would any temp above 212F provide the same amount of oven spring if all other factors are the same?

A simple test will provide you with your answer.  Take doughballs from the same batch and bake the first at a lower temp, then crank the heat up and bake the 2nd one.  If you want to keep the the proof times exactly the same, then you can take the 2nd dough ball out of the fridge maybe 15 min after the first.  This should give you about 15 min between bakes to measure rim rise, take pics, allow the oven temps to rise, stretch and top the next pie, and bake. 

I hope you will consider doing this test so we can know for sure.   I would try to vary the temps by at least 100F if not 150F.  You may get the same spring but just a darker crust with the higher temp bake.   

JT
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 13, 2010, 11:44:41 PM
Jackie Tran,

I know oven spring can be caused by many factors.  I have used different flours in this same oven, including All Trumps, Kyrol, Pillsbury Balancer and now KASL.  I have watched this poolish preferment for a while from week to week and have had my oven temperature up higher different times, and couldnít notice a difference in the oven spring.  All I got was a darker bottom crust and a shorter bake time. 

If I have time next week and the temperatures at market arenít too hot, I will try your idea at the end of the night, so I can make sure my bake temperatures wonít be too far off, if the bake doesnít go well.

This is why I really donít have a theory at this time, but keep watching.  Somehow I think oven spring is also related to the dough formula.  This same dough is what gave me good oven spring, when using it in the BBQ grill set-up at lower temperatures, also.

Thanks for your ideas,

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Jackie Tran on July 15, 2010, 12:29:13 AM
Norma - sorry I didn't wait.  I was baking tonight and decided to do the test to see if temps do affect crust rise or not.  Should I post my results here or start a new thread?

JT
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 15, 2010, 06:22:37 AM
Norma - sorry I didn't wait.  I was baking tonight and decided to do the test to see if temps do affect crust rise or not.  Should I post my results here or start a new thread?

JT

Jackie Tran,

I am interested to see what you results were using your formula, and seeing if temperatures did contribute to a crust rise for you.  I have only been fooling around with this one formula, so that is why I don't have a theory on this.  This formula is only 61% hydration, and I know you use a higher hydration. 

It's okay with me for you to start another thread, because you are the one that is also experimenting.  Maybe different formulas will act different.  That is what I wonder, also.  ::)

Maybe time will tell what formulas have to do with a rise in the crust while baking at different temperatures.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Jackie Tran on July 15, 2010, 07:07:11 AM
Will do Norma.  I'll do a proper write up in another thread and link to it. I put it here...
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11381.msg103651.html#msg103651 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11381.msg103651.html#msg103651)

So I was wrong about a higher temperature producing a bigger oven spring.  As you stated earlier Norma, it only gets you a darker crust faster.  >:D Ovenspring definitely has a lot to do with the dough formulation as that encompasses many of the other factors I previously stated.  It's nice to see that you get huge oven spring even with a lower hydration ratio.  Heck, who knows I may be wrong about that one as well!  Back to the kitchen for me!!:-D 

Chau
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 21, 2010, 08:09:12 AM

Jackie Tran,

I didnít forget about the experiment I said I was going to do for you, in trying two dough balls and using a higher and lower bake temperature to see what would happen with oven spring.  Steve (Ev) and I were going to do the experiment yesterday, but when we went to do the experiment, I saw that I had forgotten my IR thermometer.  I had left it at home, from my experiment with the Ultra-Thin par-baked skins. I have never turned my oven up to full tilt, so I thought I would need the thermometer to see how high the temperature can get and also to see what the results would be at whatever temperature this oven can get. Hopefully next week I will remember to take the thermometer along to market.  I am still studying this dough and Steve and I were watching yesterday, when I opened my dough, I usually use.  I still donít understand about this dough, but when opening it, you can see a difference even in oven spring, on how you open the dough and how much rim you leave on the dough.  I didnít take any pictures because I had forgot the thermometer to do the experiment for you.  My dough, after cold fermenting for a day in the plastic food safe bag, does get moister until the next day.  I donít know if it just this dough, or the plastic bags that make the dough moister until the next day.  I will have to put one dough ball in a plastic container and see if that makes a difference in this dough formula.  As we watched the dough, while opening, most of the day, you could see how big bubbles would form along the rim, while opening this dough in different ways.  Even in the same temperature oven, different ways the dough was opened produced different oven spring.  Some of the finished pies did have great oven spring.  I still donít know how all this relates to oven spring, but am going to keep on studying this dough.  I can see that maybe the increased moisture from the plastic bag does help this dough to have more oven spring, even if this dough is only 61% hydration.  Right now my opinion is the increased moisture gets converted to steam when hitting the hot oven deck and then helps oven spring.  I will keep on studying this dough.  Also letting this dough out for varying amounts of time to warm-up, also does produce different results in oven spring, with more bubbles forming in the plastic bag.

Norma

This is another experiment I did on this dough in my last BBQ grill set-up, on Sunday.  I was going to try a smaller dough ball in the BBQ grill set-up with firebricks with a lower bake temperature and see what happened, but I decided to use a regular weight dough ball, to see what would happen, with letting the dough thicker and also letting the rim bigger.  I was surprised to see the dough rising so quickly at the lower bake temperature.  As can be seen on these pictures the rising dough almost hit the top of the steel pan.  I had trouble rotating this pie, because the rim was getting so big, and I didnít want to mess the pie up by hitting the top steel pan.  I still am thinking about the results of this bake.  The thicker dough, did get great oven spring, even at lower temperatures. I don't know with the lower ratio of head space is this also contributed to the rise. The pie didnít need a underneath pan to keep this pie from burning on the bottom, near the end of the bake.  The inside of the rim and inside of the bottom crust were very moist, while the outside rim and bottom crust were crispy.  I dressed this pie with 6 in 1 tomato sauce with added sea salt, sugar, and a sprinkling of Krinos oregano.  The Foremost Blend of cheese was used in combination with fresh grape tomatoes.  After this pie was baked, I topped the pie with opal and regular basil.  Right now, in my opinion letting the rim and crust thicker did help oven spring, with even using a lower bake temperature.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 21, 2010, 08:10:17 AM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 21, 2010, 08:11:00 AM
last pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Jackie Tran on July 24, 2010, 11:24:40 PM
Looks like you got some great oven spring there Norma.  what you are observing in the dough under different circumstances makes sense to me. 

When the dough is allowed to proof inside the bag, it traps moisture.  This does 2 things I can see.  1) is prevent moisture loss so that equates to a wetter moister dough which will give better oven spring given the same baking temps.  And 2) prevents a skin from former which will also allow it to proof up better. 

I also agree that how you handle a dough can affect it's spring.  Essentially, too much handling equates to pressing the rim and that will also affect oven spring.  You may remember, I did a little experiment awhile back that show this. 

Another thing I've been playing with (thanks to Scott) is allowing the dough to proof up 2x plus for a better spring.  I believe you are already doing this.  If so you should see that dough that is used later in the day should have better oven spring than dough used first thing in the morning provided the dough doesn't sit out and is subjected to moisture lost. 

I'm also curious to where you think the bigger air bubbles are coming from?   Do you believe that to be a part of dough technique (trapping air when kneading) or the later stages of fermentation or a bit of both?

Chau
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 25, 2010, 01:24:54 AM
Jackie Tran,

Thanks for saying it looks like I got some great oven spring in the BBQ grill set-up.  I appreciate your insight of what is going on with my dough.  I do remember your experiment on handling the dough and oven spring. 

I still havenít figured out if I get better oven spring later in the day.  My oven spring is more related to how long I let the dough warm-up and open the skin.  If it warms up too long then it gets hard to manage.  Even in the morning, there can be great oven spring.  I work in different temperatures each week, so I have to watch my dough balls, when they are left out on the bench to warm up. If I see they are starting to get too gassy, then I put them back into the pizza prep refrigerator, and use them when they are colder, again. This seems to work. There is never moisture loss in my dough balls, because I keep them in the plastic bags until I am ready to use them. Some weeks my temperatures at market can be 99 degrees F.  The last few weeks the temperature has been around 93 degrees because my oven is on all day and the outside temperatures have been hot.  We also have a lot of humidity in our area to deal with.

To answer your question about the bigger bubbles, I donít really understand that at this time, except when this dough is left thicker and more of a rim, then it seems to get better oven spring.  I mix the dough at market in my commercial mixer, and only mix until the dough looks smooth.  I donít under knead it.  I only cold ferment my dough for one day, so even if I use this dough in the morning or in the evening, in my opinion right now, oven spring has more to do with the handling or opening the skin.  My dough also has a poolish that is made on Friday, proofed in the Hatco Unit until it bubbles and then is left to cold ferment for 3 days, mixed into the final dough and left to cold ferment for one day.  Even when I use this same dough after it is frozen it almost acts the same way.  The pictures that had the good oven spring from above, were this same dough that had been frozen and the baked in the BBQ grill set-up.  At market I only bake this dough at 525 degrees F.

I have been studying this one dough formula for awhile and it is still a mystery to me in some ways. 

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on July 25, 2010, 06:20:08 PM
Norma,

Your recent discussions with Jackie Chan prompted me to think about the types of factors that appear to govern or to be implicated in oven spring and, in general, an overall rise in a dough skin. I donít know that I can distinguish on a technical basis the difference between oven spring and an overall rise in a dough skin other than to note that oven spring tends to be more often associated and discussed in relation to the rim of a pizza.

These are the factors that come to mind that appear to be involved in oven spring or dough rise in general in respect of a typical home oven setting, although most of the factors apply to many other oven types also:

1. The type/brand of flour, including its protein content and gluten formation characteristics, and whether the flour is bromated or not.
2. The water content (hydration) of the dough.
3. The amount and type of yeast used (Note: Cookís Illustrated says that fresh yeast produces the most gas during fermentation).
4. Other ingredients added to the dough that can affect its volume expansion, including oil, vital wheat gluten (see, for example, http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/items/vital-wheat-gluten-16-oz (http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/items/vital-wheat-gluten-16-oz)) and dry milk powder (e.g., see http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/items/bakers-special-dry-milk-16-oz (http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/items/bakers-special-dry-milk-16-oz)). (Note: There are other additives and conditioners that are used by professional/commercial bakers to accomplish similar functions but these are outside the purview of this list; also, salt and sugar in excess can negatively affect yeast performance).
5. Water quality (mainly mineral content/hardness).
6. Mixing and kneading and related methods (including autolyse) and their duration and dough preparation speeds, whether by machine or by hand, that can affect the viscosity and density of the dough, including the capacity of the dough to capture and retain gases of fermentation (for a discussion of these latter factors, see the section ďFermentation ControlĒ at http://www.theartisan.net/The_Artisan_Yeast_Treatise_Section_Two.htm (http://www.theartisan.net/The_Artisan_Yeast_Treatise_Section_Two.htm)).
7. The type of pizza stone/tiles/firebricks or other carrier used to bake the pizza, including pizza screen, pan or disk (perforated or nonperforated), and the material (including any coating) of such carrier.
8. The oven configuration, including the type of oven (e.g., electric or gas, and with or without a convection feature) and the oven rack position used during baking.
9. Other devices used in the oven during baking, such as secondary pizza stones/tiles/firebricks or metal pans/skillets or their equivalent.
10. Oven temperature as related to the temperature of the pizza stone or other carrier and any other devices under paragraph 9.
11. Fermentation condition of the dough at the time of use (e.g., from underfermented to overfermented/overproofed).
12. Dough temper factors, including temper time and temperature (this can be considered an extension of paragraph 11).
13. Dough shaping methods, including the way the rim is formed and gases are distributed in the skin, including to the rim. These methods can also include skins that are sheeted with multiple layers or laminations.
14. Whether a formed skin is allowed to proof/rise before dressing and baking.
15. The size of the skin, its thickness, and the number, types and amounts of sauce, cheese and toppings.
16. The relationship and balance between dough pH and residual sugar at the time of baking (see the Calvel discussion at Reply 136 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5851.msg86732/topicseen.html#msg86732 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5851.msg86732/topicseen.html#msg86732)). (Note: This factor is likely to be influenced by whether a starter/preferment--natural or based on commercial yeast--is used.)
17. Environmental factors, such as altitude (this can require modifications to the dough formulation and bake times/temperatures).

Arguably, one can optimize the above factors in any given case, or, more likely, one might try to optimize a subset of the above factors based on the materials and equipment on hand, and make a sufficient number of doughs/pizzas under essentially identical conditions (or as similar as possible) to confirm the factors that produced the desired oven spring and related results. It would be nice to test each of the above factors one at a time, changing only one variable at a time, but that would be impractical in a nonscientific home setting that is subject to many variables. It would also consume an inordinate amount of time to conduct all the tests.

In your case with the Lehmann preferment dough, obviously not all of the above enumerated factors apply nor have you necessarily attempted to optimize those that did apply although what you have done strikes me as being quite normal and reasonable. However, while I believe that trying to optimize the factors that do apply is a reasonable thing to do, if I were to single out a few of the factors that I think are most dominant, I would pick oven temperature and, more particularly, an oven temperature that achieves a combination of top heat and bottom heat sufficient to create good oven spring but without burning anything. I believe you get that inherently at market with your commercial deck oven--with good heat retention characteristics of your oven stone and a small overhead space--and I believe you achieved similar conditions with your grill setup, with a small, rather confined space and sometimes at higher temperatures than you use at market.

Although you have noted the limitations of your home oven, I believe other members have achieved good oven spring in a home oven setting, as noted by the links referenced in Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10122.msg88410.html#msg88410. (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10122.msg88410.html#msg88410.) Note, in particular, the long knead times that ThunderStik uses, without any apparent ill effects on oven spring. Obviously, other factors have to complement the oven conditions, such as having a properly prepared and managed dough (preferably using a high-protein flour and a water content conducive to ample steam creation during baking), but in your case you have demonstrated that you are able to manage the various factors involved and to achieve the proper balance between them to achieve very good end results.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 25, 2010, 09:02:39 PM
Peter,

Thank you for going over all the factors that can be involved to produce oven spring for me and if Jackie Tran or others might want to read about them. I never knew that fresh yeast produces the most gas during fermentation.  I will have to do more experiments on that to see what kind of results I can achieve. 

It is interesting in the article that you reference above http://www.theartisan.net/The_Artisan_Yeast_Treatise_Section_Two.htm  that, the smaller original quantity of yeast in the dough, the greater the percentage increase in cell numbers during the fermentation, with all other conditions being held constant, because then the competition for nutrients are far less.  Then each yeast cell has access or the opportunity for access to greater food supplies during fermentation.  I also see that acidification in dough fermentation produces acetic acid in amounts higher than the other organic acids and when combined with a poolish, the production of acetic acid is higher.  The longer maturation progresses and fermentaion is prolonged, the dough becomes richer in organic acids, and then this becomes evident as a lowering of the pH.  Temperature of the dough is an important factors as Calvel demonstrates in the graph.  The pH is  ultimately related to the level of residual sugars present in the dough before baking.  These residual sugars are the remainder of those that fed dough fermentation.  They fulfill important functions during the baking process.

In the fermentation control, Most of the desirable changes resulting from 'optimum' dough development, whatever the breadmaking or pizza making process, are related to the ability of the dough to retain gas bubbles (air) and permit the uniform expansion of the dough piece under the influence of carbon dioxide gas from yeast fermentation during proof and baking.

All these factors, plus so many more mentioned in this article are all interesting and I am going to have to study this more, to be able to understand all that goes into play, when trying to make the best dough I am able to, in different forumlas.

pH of dough and the remaining residual sugars present just before baking do determine the extent of oven spring during the first moments of baking.  I wonder if I use my pH meter to measure my different doughs that I try, if I will be able to find out for myself if the pH of dough does help me to have better oven spring?  I wonder if I can compare my preferment Lehmann dough and see if different times during the day or even in home use, with using the pH meter can tell me more about residual sugars present and seeing how that relates to my open spring and also use the pH meter to test all my doughs before baking.

I can also understand that I could optimize the factors you referenced to see how that would relate to all of this, but also could see that would really be time consuming. 

I remember ThunderStik fondly, but didnít remember how long he mixed his dough or at what hydration he made his doughs.  I can now see that he had great oven spring, using a long mix time and a lower hydration.  I had also wondered about mix times and hydration on how it all relates.  Bill did get great oven spring with lower hydration levels and longer mix times.  I always enjoyed his adventures and seeing his pies.  I hope someday, he comes back on the forum to share his results, if he is still making pizzas.  Bill did a lot of great experiments. I also forgot about him doing a long room fermented dough. His pizzas sure looked great!

I can see that having a properly prepared and managed dough is one of the most important things to have if you want oven spring.  I will stay on the journey.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on July 25, 2010, 09:36:08 PM
Norma,

From time to time I have conducted experiments in my electric oven in which I removed the lowest oven rack, on which I would normally put my pizza stone (Cordierite), and I positioned the stone on some pieces of brick in order to support the stone just above the lower heating element. The thought was that the lower stone position would reach a higher temperature and result in the pizza baking faster and with more oven spring. That did not happen. Later, when I did some experimenting using the upper part of my oven with the pizza stone on a rack several inches below the upper heating element, which periodically preheated the stone, I got better oven spring. However, the bottom crust did not achieve the same degree of browning as when I put the stone close to the lower heating element on the pieces of brick. This combination of experiments led me to believe that you need good top and bottom heat to get the pizza to bake optimally and to get good oven spring. That is why I emphasized this point in my last post.

Also, recently, while I was in vacation, I made a couple of Lehmann NY style pizzas for my son and his family and a few guests. I made enough dough for two 13" pizzas. The two pizzas were in all respects prepared the same way. The first pizza was baked on a FibraMent stone. It took the pizza longer to bake than it would in my oven, resulting in a nice pizza but a bit too chewy and crispy. When I discovered that the oven (electric) had a convection mode, I switched to that and, after letting the oven get back to the right temperature, I baked the second pizza. That pizza had better oven spring than the first one and was preferred by everyone over the first pizza. I did not have a temperature gun, so there might have been other factors involved, but the difference was great enough to lead me to believe that maybe the combination of the right top heat and the right bottom heat was responsible for the improved oven spring. I'm sure I will test this thesis out more fully at some later date.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 25, 2010, 10:21:17 PM
Peter,

I can see how your experiments lead you to the conclusions that you need a good top and bottom heat to bake pizzas optimally and get good oven spring. 

I can see while you were on vacation, that using the convection mode did help distribute the heat more evenly and resulted in a better pizza. Good to hear you used the convection mode and achieved a better pizza.  :) It will be interesting to see how you conduct those tests at a later date on distributing better heat more evenly.

I have a 1/4 size convection oven at market and have always wanted to test a pizza in there to see what the results would be.  I first need to get some kind of baking stone to fit that oven.  Maybe a stone will be a Christmas present. 

Did you ever think about some kind of BBQ grill set-up?  It is fairly easy to do and there you can get a lower head space for baking pizzas. In my opinion so far, this is something like my commercial oven and I can get better results than in my home oven.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Jackie Tran on July 25, 2010, 10:25:39 PM
Peter that is quite the list of variables affecting oven spring. I had started making a list some time ago but it was not as comprehensive as yours. I have tested a few of those factors and working on the rest. :)

I concur with your findings that an even top and bottom heat, better yet a higher top heat compare to bottom heat is a big factor in oven spring.  I noted this when I started baking in my modified primo ceramic oven and my MBE.  The home oven has a lot more space to heat and more room for the hot air to circulate, whereas in smaller ovens like modified grills the heat is more concentrated.

Chau
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on July 26, 2010, 10:29:46 AM
Did you ever think about some kind of BBQ grill set-up?  It is fairly easy to do and there you can get a lower head space for baking pizzas. In my opinion so far, this is something like my commercial oven and I can get better results than in my home oven.

Norma,

I have never really had a strong urge (or even a weak one now that I think of it) to use or modify a BBQ unit to make pizza. I do have a BBQ unit but it is small and I use it about once every two years.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 27, 2010, 11:23:55 PM
Jackie Tran and anyone else that might be interested.  I did the experiment today using a lower and higher bake temperature with my same dough.  I also did a couple of more experiments with my regular preferment Lehmann dough.  The first  three pictures are from a frozen dough ball and this pie was made first thing in the morning before the oven was up to my regular temperature of 525-545 degrees F.  The temperature of this bake was 470 degrees F.

I made varies pies during the day and opened the dough in the same way. These bake temperatures were between 525-545 degrees F.  From these experiments there really isnít any difference in my oven and the lower bake temperatures in the amount of oven spring, in my opinion.  From morning until night time there doesnít appear to be any difference in oven spring.

Steve (Ev) and I did an experiment with a smaller dough ball and the first dough ball we used my normal bake temperatures.  Then we cranked up the oven until it was as high as it would go.  I had thought that the bottom of the pie would be finished before the top.  That is what happened.  The pie did bake faster, but burnt on the bottom.  This experiment was done in the early evening.

I really donít know, but I think my formula really isnít conductive to a high bake temperature.  The second pie was baked between 675 degrees F to 700 degrees F, depending on where the temperature was measured on the stone.  As can been seen, both pies had oven spring in using the small dough balls.

If there are any questions, just ask.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 27, 2010, 11:27:18 PM
2 small dough balls and regular bake temperatures of 525-545 degrees F.

Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 27, 2010, 11:28:45 PM
continued- regular baked temperatures with small dough ball
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 27, 2010, 11:32:23 PM
second small dough ball baked at higher temperatures of 675-700 degrees F.
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Jackie Tran on July 28, 2010, 12:08:09 AM
Norma thx for doing the experiment. Looks like you got great oven spring despite the temp differences.  Where all the doughballs of similar size/weight and were they all stretched out to the same size?

I have done a similar experiment not long ago and got similar results.  I really didn't see a difference until I really thinned out the skins and it wasn't a significant difference at that. Now when I increased the hydration by 10 percentage points and baked at high temps I then saw a significant difference.

I was surprised that you didn't see any difference in ovenspring b/t the morning and evening pies. Did you noticed if the evening pie had more big voids?

Chau
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 28, 2010, 12:29:05 AM
Jackie Tran,

Yes, there was good oven spring using a wide variety of temperatures.  The first 3 pictures that I used the low bake temperature, first thing in the morning was a my regular size dough ball and was opened to my regular thickness factor.

The other pictures were from two smaller dough balls that I used for this experiment.  I have other pictures from the higher temperature bake that I didnít post.  This dough formulation is 61 % hydration and the two small dough balls used in this bake were then left a little thicker for the experiment. 

There werenít any bigger voids in the evening.  From my first pies in the morning until evening, there wasnít any significant difference in oven spring.  My dough balls are kept in a low temperature deli case or pizza prep refrigerator, so I donít know if that makes any difference or not, but it could. 

I am still wondering if oven spring is related to the dough formula.  I think how this dough is managed and then baked, there isnít much difference, because all variables are kept about the same.  I also am thinking about how the dough is opened can then affect oven spring.  I will have to do some more experiments on that. These are just my opinions and thoughts..

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Jackie Tran on July 28, 2010, 06:51:01 AM
Norma, the 3rd pic has a very nice looking crumb. I'm surprised it is thicker b/c it looks thinner to me but I know pics can be deceiving.  Was the crumb texture on that one soft? Not dry at all correct?

Norma no worries if anyone agrees or disagrees with your findings. You are doing the experiments and sharing your findings so that in itself is commendable. I have very little pizza making experience/knowledge myself so I don't always trust my own ideas and opinions. Since I'm always learning I have to be okay with being wrong in order to progress. Im saying this to say I'm not an authority on anything even though I may talk like I am at times. :)

You could definitely be right about it being the particular formula since there are so many factors (as Peter noted earlier) that can affect oven spring. Either way it sounds like you have a winning formula and method. The dough sounds very versatile and can bake up consistently all day.   That's a real plus for a commercial setting I'm sure.
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 28, 2010, 07:09:59 AM
Jackie Tran,

Thanks for saying the 3rd picture has a nice looking crumb.  :) The crumb texture was soft on that one.  It wasnít dry at all. Steve and I were discussing how we both like the little dough ball that was left a little thicker in the regular bake temperatures. I think I am going to try using more dough and let the skin a little thicker next week, for all my pizzas. I am going to post pictures of all three doughs opened up in a few minutes.  You can then see what the dough skins looked like. 

I think every oven or oven set-up bakes differently, but that is just my opinion from watching in my home oven, BBQ grill set-up and my oven at market.  I really donít have that much pizza making knowledge either and that is why I have been just watching how this one dough formula behaves in different oven set-ups and different bake temperatures.  I also watch how this one dough formula behaves in different ambient temperatures, warm-ups times and opening of the skin techniques.

This dough is very versatile for me and I really like it.

Thanks for your comments,

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 28, 2010, 07:14:55 AM
This is a video of my small market stand (8'x13") taken when I was waiting for my oven to warm-up, taken yesterday, in the morning, if anyone is interested in watching it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzCyvu4p2k4

1st picture of the first regular bake of this frozen dough, regular 16" size, skin opened to regular thickness factor, baked at lower than my normal baking temperature, shown in the pictures above. This was taken first thing in the morning.

2nd picture, Regular baking temperature of my oven, 1st small dough ball, stretched into a skin, let a little thicker than my normal dough.  This was taken in the early evening.

3rd picture, High baking temperature of second dough ball, opened into a skin, let a little thicker than my normal dough.  This was taken early in the evening, also.

Other pictures of pizza and rim baked at the higher than my normal baking temperatures.  As can be seen my formula doesnít work well with high bake temperatures, because the bottom will get burnt.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 28, 2010, 07:19:44 AM
pictures of second small dough ball baked into a pizza, rim, and burnt bottom.  This was the high bake temperature.

Norma

Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Jackie Tran on July 28, 2010, 07:33:14 AM
Norma, I loved seeing a video of your market set up.  It seems like a very efficient use of space.  Thanks for posting the dough at different times in the day.  It does look like it changes a bit in characteristics but it could be b/c you didn't stretch them out as much.  Also looks like there is lacking of the big voids prebake as you leave the dough later into the day. ??? If you could keep an eye on that in the future and let me know if this is a consistent or just a singular phenomenon I would appreciate that. 

The dough in the bags looks very soft, moist, supple, etc to me.  It looks good.  I wonder how much of that has to do with having a commercial mixer vs the particular formula.   I'm thinking a mixer of some sorts is finally on my list next. 

Also I was thinking the that the temp differences may not have as much an effect on oven spring as does having an even top and bottom heat.  It may be that having a good oven can mitigate some of the differences of having different temp bakes.  Again, I only noted small spring differences when the skins were stretched really thin. 

Norma I just saw the high temp bake from your latest post and comparing it to the low temp bake I think I see more big voids in the crumb.  It does look like better oven spring but that could be due to the increase thickness factor as well.  Either way all the pies do look good. 

Norma, I'm gonna have to go back and write down the recipe you used and your methods for future testing.   :chef:  Thanks again for doing this.

Cheers,
Chau
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 28, 2010, 08:03:26 AM
Jackie Tran,

Thanks you for saying you enjoyed watching the video of my little market stand.  It took awhile for me to figure out how all that stuff was going to fit into such a small place.   :-D

My dough doesnít change much, during the day and evening, but it I can see in the evening it has fermented a little more.

If you want me to next week, I will take some pictures during different times in the day of my finished pizzas, rims and skins.

This dough is very soft and moist.  crazybob and his wife (from the drive-in thread), were at market yesterday and they also played with this dough.  I posted a picture of the finished pie, with their pictures, when Steve and I made them a pie.  That was in the afternoon. If you want to see how that pie looked, go on crazybobís Drive-In Theatre thread.

I also am wondering how much having about the same even top and bottom temperatures does then affect the oven spring.  I also think the formula and opening of the skin techinques, has a lot to do with oven spring, but that is just my opinion for right now.  I will keep watching all of this.  ::)

I donít really think there were more voids in the higher bake temperatures.  They appeared to be about the same to me. 

In my opinion a commercial mixer does help to mix the dough, but I havenít tried all kinds of commercial mixers, so I am not an expert on that.  I usually just mix my dough until it looks smooth, which is about 4 minutes.  I have tried longer mix times and my dough doesnít seem affected by the longer mix times. 

If you want the links to one dough or five dough balls to test, let me know.  I will provide the links for you.

I was happy to do these experiments.  It has helped me understand this dough more.  ;D

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on July 28, 2010, 12:39:23 PM
Norma,

Based on the results of your recent experiments, it appears that your operation at market has a fairly wide range of acceptable tolerances. By that, I mean that so long as you keep your oven temperature in the range of about 470 degrees F to 545 degrees F, you appear to be able to achieve comparable results, including oven spring, whether you use defrosted frozen dough, your regular dough, and with different pizza sizes and thickness factors. It is only when you reach for considerably higher oven temperatures that results can suffer (e.g., a burned bottom crust in your case). I suspect that JT is correct that if you were to use a significantly higher hydration you might get comparable results using the higher oven temperatures. However, that would be at the risk of a faster fermentation cycle, which might upset your normal timetable and scheduling, and possible extensibility issues. Moreover, you would perhaps have to reformulate your dough formulation (which means more messy math), plus possibly conduct a fair amount of experimentation in order to achieve the proper balance between the final dough and the way it works in your oven. I am not sure that that is worth the effort but in the final analysis that would be your call.

You are in a sense correct when you say that you think that it is your dough formulation that is responsible for getting good oven spring, along with the way you open up the dough balls and form the skins. However, a dough formulation is only a sum of its parts, many of which can be implicated individually or collectively in oven spring. For example, when I look at what you have done, I see the following. First, you are using a high-gluten flour and a hydration that is commensurate with the rated absorption value for the flour and your ability to work with the dough without experiencing extensibility problems. Second, you are using a commercial mixer and slightly undermixing the dough and achieving a high-quality, robust dough characterized by good gluten development and the capacity to capture and retain the gases of fermentation. No doubt you are getting a better dough than most of us can make in a home setting using a basic KitchenAid stand mixer. So the value of a commercial mixer is not to be minimized. Third, you have managed to achieve a room-temperature prefermentation/cold fermentation protocol, with a proper balance between the use of the formula yeast, that fits your one-day-a-week market operation (a few days counting the preferment/fermentation operations) while achieving a proper balance between dough pH and residual sugar (the Calvel requirement). Fourth, you have learned how to temper the dough balls to suit your varying market ambient conditions and then open them and form skins without losing fermentation gases and while getting good rim size. I believe the above set of conditions is conducive to achieving good results in your oven at market and, so long as you repeat the entire sequence consistently from week to week, and operate within the workable range of oven temperatures, you should get fairly consistent overall results.

Since I have mentioned the role that I think ovens and oven temperatures play in oven spring, I think a useful test to determine the impact of the oven in your case would be to bake two essentially identical pizzas, one using your commercial oven at market and one using your home oven, using the same dough in each instance as you use at market. Then report back on the results, including the extent and nature of the oven spring. If you get the same or comparable results and oven spring in your home oven, then that would tell us that the dough formulation and/or dough making/management factors are likely responsible for the oven spring in your case. I am sure that there are other experiments that could be conducted to test other variables (but one at a time) in the two settings.

Peter

Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on July 28, 2010, 01:00:01 PM
crazybob and his wife (from the drive-in thread), were at market yesterday and they also played with this dough.  I posted a picture of the finished pie, with their pictures, when Steve and I made them a pie.  That was in the afternoon. If you want to see how that pie looked, go on crazybobís Drive-In Theatre thread.

Norma,

As I see it, there are three degrees of separation between you, crazybob and Steve (Ev). And the common denominator is Tom Lehmann. You are using a modified preferment version of Tom's NY style dough formulation, crazybob has been using the Lehmann dough calculating tool to make a basic Lehmann NY style dough (see http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10941.msg99674.html#msg99674), and the dough that Steve has been using to make Greek pizzas is a modification of the Lehmann NY style dough formulation. I suppose I could consider Steve Z, the Administrator of our forum, and myself as two other degrees of separation, since Steve Z asked Tom Lehmann for permission to use his NY style dough formulation and Steve Z asked me to help modify that formulation for use in a home environment. Maybe Evelyne Slomon sits at the top of the heap since she allegedly helped develop the "Lehmann" NY style dough formulation for Tom. So, the totem pole is Evelyne, Tom, Steve Z, me, you, crazybob and Steve (Ev)  :-D.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 28, 2010, 01:54:23 PM
Peter,

Thank you for going over all of this and commenting that Jackie Tran could be right about using a higher hydration in trying baking the pizza at higher temperatures.  I am satisfied how this dough performs at the lower bake temperatures and I surely wouldnít want to go about reformulating another higher hydration for this dough.  I also then would use more propane in higher bake temperatures.  I try to keep my costs the least I can at market, for my utility bills.  That is one of the reasons I was searching for a dough that could be made with the limited storage space I have. I had enjoyed the taste of the crusts of longer fermentations, but then would have to keep my pizza prep refrigerator on more, in addition to my deli case.  I always turn my water heater off, when I leave market.  The only appliance that stays on all week, is the deli case. 

I can understand that the commercial mixer does help me to make better dough.  I didnít think about balancing the proper way as the Calvel requirement, but can see this has been achieved with a balance between dough pH and residual sugar.  I guess it was just studying this dough and watching how it behaves, is what has lead me in the right direction. 

I have seen how this same dough, can get good oven spring and even a better taste to the crust, when baking in my BBQ grill set-up.  I still donít understand why the crust tastes better in the BBQ grill set-up, but will keep studying what happens there.

I also think your idea is good about using this same dough in my home oven and seeing what kind of results I can achieve there.  Since my home oven doesnít go very high, and there is much more head space, that experiment would be interesting.  I will do that experiment and see if it is the dough formulation and dough handling factors that do help make better oven spring.  In the next few days I will take a frozen dough ball and test it in my home oven.

I had wanted to do another experiment yesterday, but didnít think I would have the time.  I had wanted to take some of my firebricks to market and use them in my 1/4 size convection oven, to see what kind of results could be achieved with them, using the same dough. That experiment might be for next week, if I find the time.

I was just going to post this when I saw you posted again, so I will go on from here.

LOL, it funny to hear you state how we all stand in the totem pole.  I guess we all owe Evelyne Slomon and Tom Lehmann a standing ovation for getting us all to where we are today.  Thanks Evelyne and Tom. The Chefs Hat is off to both of you and the numerous people on this forum that have worked on the Lehmann dough and a big thanks to Steve Z that started this forum.  :chef: :chef: :chef:

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on July 28, 2010, 02:11:53 PM
I have seen how this same dough, can get good oven spring and even a better taste to the crust, when baking in my BBQ grill set-up.  I still donít understand why the crust tastes better in the BBQ grill set-up, but will keep studying what happens there.

Norma,

Since the byproducts of fermentation should be the same in both cases, I would guess that the better crust flavors when using your BBQ unit come from using a smaller size pizza than you use at market, in a smaller, more confined space, coupled with higher bake temperatures in some cases. That combination is likely to lead to increased caramelization of natural residual sugars in the dough, increased Maillard reactions, and increased denaturing of the protein in the dough. There are literally hundreds of chemical interaction in a baking pizza dough, many, if not most, of which are not fully understood. Many of these interactions affect the flavor and aroma of the finished crust.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 28, 2010, 02:35:57 PM
Peter,

Thank you for explaining reasons why my BBQ grill set-up could give the crust better flavors.  I can understand now, that the increased caramelization of natural residual sugars in the dough (Maillard reactions) and also the increased denaturing of the protein of the dough could give me better crust flavors.  I can see how there are hundreds chemical interactions in a dough, and know I wonít ever be able to understand them all. It is interesting how all these interactions can affect a pizza dough.

I used the same size dough balls in my experiment yesterday and was just wondering why the tastes of the crusts were different.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Jackie Tran on July 30, 2010, 04:41:51 PM
Norma, I would like to see pics of the dough and finished pies throughout the day if it's not too much trouble.   I also would like to try your formula and method in the next week or so.  I'll comb through this thread for the forumla and method. 

Thanks,
Chau
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 30, 2010, 06:20:03 PM
Jackie Tran,

I will take pictures of the dough and pies though out the day on Tuesday. Do you have anything else you want me to try, other than turning up my oven again? That one pie from turning up the oven did ruin 2 other pies, because then I had problems getting my oven down to normal bake temperatures.  Do you want me to explain what to do with this formula, if you want to give it a try? This is the formula Peter set-forth for one dough ball at reply #225  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg90226.html#msg90226

This is also a lower hydration dough than you are used to working with.  It is 61% hydration and I use KASL flour.

The next step up would be five dough balls.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Jackie Tran on July 30, 2010, 08:25:18 PM
Norma, thanks for the link to the formula again.  I will likely be makin 2 balls and I will likely up the hydration ratio.  Hand kneading 65% HR is about the lowest I can go. 

Also I'm more interested in the fermentation time and method of the preferment and dough.  I believe you have posted that in this thread not long ago so I will do some reading to look for that.

Norma, no need to do a retest.  If you are happy with your crust and crumb why mess with it?  If you really want to push the limits of your dough, then you can try a high hydraion hi temp bake at market, but I will leave that up to you.  Hi temp baking should be really reserved for low protein doughs and proper pizza ovens like WFOs or ovens that have both a top and lower heating element like a grill with a rotiserie burners.   If your oven at the market has a top burner or if you ever decide to put a rotisserie burner to your grill and still want to do high temp bakes, then I would do that at the end of the day so you don't have to try and cool the oven. 

Cheers,
Chau
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 30, 2010, 09:15:08 PM
Jackie Tran,

The poolish is mixed one day, then let out at room temperature (or if a proofing box is used the time is less to let this poolish bubble) until the poolish looks bubbly, all depends on your ambient room temperature. Then the is  poolish is cold fermented for 3 days. The final dough is then mixed in and the dough is balled and then cold fermented for 1 more day.  If you need any other instructions on how to mix the poolish or anything else, let me know.  It is so hard to find all these links on this long thread.  I strive for a lower dough temperature, because this dough can become unruly if the final dough temperature is too high.  The final dough temperature I use is about 73-75 degrees F.

I donít know about a high hydration at this time, because I am involved in other projects, but might try that some day. 

I just did another experiment tonight with this dough.  I only baked this dough in my home oven at 500 degrees F and the bake time was 8 minutes.  When I get the pictures resized and write up the post, I will post pictures of the bake and pie.   ::)

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 30, 2010, 09:50:00 PM
I tried an experiment out with this dough tonight, after Peter said maybe a test could see if it might be this dough and the handling of the dough that might cause oven spring.  This pie was baked in my home oven at 500 degrees F and the bake time was 8 minutes. 

The dough was a frozen left over dough ball from market from this past Tuesday. I time defrosted this dough ball in the microwave.  The skin was left a little thicker, when I opened it. 

This was a white pizza and it was dressed with white garlic sauce that had added fresh hot & spicy oregano added.  The pie also had some Foremost Brand of blended cheese added on top of the garlic sauce.  The pie was then dressed with some San Marzano tomatoes and grape tomatoes.  After the pie was out of the oven, it was then topped with fresh green basil and some opal basil.

In my opinion this bake went better than I expected.  I thought I would have a soapstone to try this dough out with, but I am glad now, that I got to try this dough out in my oven without the soapstone.  I am not sure, but think this dough will be better than a sour dough modified Lehmann dough.  That sour dough mix already has me perplexed. 

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 30, 2010, 09:51:40 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 30, 2010, 09:53:09 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 30, 2010, 09:53:39 PM
last of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Jackie Tran on July 30, 2010, 10:28:48 PM
Thanks Norma, I'll PM you if I have further questions.  Feel free to add additional notes if you see fit.  My goal will be to try to make a pizza that is similar looking to yours.  I'll have to make some adjustments on my end as needed.

I have not been following this entire thread.  How was this bake different from your normal bake?  Was it just at a lower temp of 500 compare to 575?  Did you notice a difference in texture?  It looks the same as your other pies but I know pics can be deceiving?  What was the goal of this bake and what did you learn from it? 

Sorry for the many questions.  I'll try to pay closer attention from now on.   :D
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 30, 2010, 10:52:21 PM
Jackie Tran,

You can PM me if you want, but maybe other people will also want to see your questions, since this thread is so long and it is hard to find anything. It will be interesting to see what other adjustments you make to this dough.  ::)

This bake was just to see if I could get the same oven spring, that I get in my oven at market and my BBQ grill-setup.  Since they all different kinds of bakes in different ovens and my home oven really doesnít go up that high in temperatures, that is why I did this bake, using lower oven temperatures to see if I still could get an airy crust.  If you read this post of Peterís you will see why I did this test.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg104810.html#msg104810

The last paragraph, tells why I wanted to do this. I usually donít bake this dough in my home oven because it canít get up to very high temperatures and it differs from my BBQ grill set-up and my oven at market, because there isnít the same head space, which seems to make better oven spring.

What I learned from this bake, is this dough can be baked in a home oven, even at lower bake temperatures and this dough can still get oven spring in the home oven.  I still am not positive, but think the dough formula and handling techniques, how the dough is made, and other variables do have something to do with how this dough can get oven spring.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Jackie Tran on July 30, 2010, 11:07:07 PM
Norma, I'll post any questions here so others can benefit as well instead of PM'ing you.  Thanks for beings so helpful. 

I understand why you did the experiment now.  I think it's a good one as well, as it teaches you about your dough AND the home oven.  Gives insight to any needed adjustments and makes you a more versatile pizza maker. 

The only adjustment I think I'll need to make and plan on making is the HR.   Since I don't have a mixer and mix by hand.  Hand kneading tends to push the HR up IMO along with the fact that I'm in a high altitude & dry climate environment.   I can hand mix a 65% (which is very low for me) using Scott's straight dough mix method (I think that's what he calls it ???) but I usually end up with a few lumpy bits.  I may use the food processor on this one as well as that can also help me mix a lower HR dough but will have to be carefull not too overmix.  As always when following a recipe,  I try my hardest to keep everything as the author intended only making necessary adjustments.  Again my goal is to try and duplicate one of your pies and not make something different.   I have no idea if I'll be successful or not but it should be interesting. 

Chau
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 30, 2010, 11:24:20 PM
Jackie Tran,

If there is something in this thread that you need information about, I will try to find the posts and links.  I know this thread, but it is still hard for me to find the links.

Most of my doughs are made by hand also, because I donít have a mixer at home.  I mix this dough at market in my commercial mixer, because this is my market dough, but you should be fine mixing by hand. 

I have no idea how your high altitude and dry environment will affect this dough, but when I make this same dough in the winter, it is the same.  The humidity and ambient temperature at market can be very low in the winter.  Then I have to make adjustments to the water temperature of the final dough.  In winter I have to heat the water, before I use it in the final dough.  What I have found out so far in using food processors,  this really isnít the kind of dough that you mix in a food processor, but I could be wrong.  Usually those doughs are much lower in hydration.

I think you will be successful in making this formula. You have made many doughs already and are successful.  It isnít very hard, but just can take a good amount of days, until everything is done.  It is like a wait and see dough.  If or when you decide to try this dough, I will be interested in seeing your results.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 30, 2010, 11:42:00 PM
These are a few pictures of this pie, after it has cooled down. They were just taken a couple of minutes ago.  The first picture is the crust torn apart to see the crumb structure.  These were the last two slices of the pie.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Jackie Tran on July 30, 2010, 11:59:32 PM
Norma, did you find that this lower temp bake in the home oven gave you a denser or doughier crumb at all or essentially the same crust texture?

Off the top of your head, do you know the protein content of the KASL flour you use? I have so much flour it's tough for me to buy more at this point.  I think I can blend a few flours to get close to the protein content of KASL.  It won't be exactly the same but should be close enough.   

Norma, good to know you usually mix this up by hand.  I had wrongly assumed you were using the mixer to get a 61%.  I'm not quite sure how you and others mix a 61% by hand without issues.

At this point the only thing I can attributed this too is the high % of preferment used (~74%).  Maybe once I start working with it, I'll find that it won't be hard to achieve the 61%.  I'll shoot for it though and won't go higher unless I feel that I really have to. 

You've mixed this up by hand so many times now I'm sure it's effortless.  Sorry for the noob question but can you quickly go over the steps you take to hand mix it.  Do you use the straight dough technique? or do you add the flour in a bit at a time, knead, and add more flour?   How long is your knead time approximately once you start adding water and flour and other ingredients to the the preferment.

Actually, if you don't mind can you list the order in which you add the ingredients to the preferment or do you add the preferment to the other ingredients.

BTW - I just started reading from page 12? (recipe for 1 16" pizza) and slowly making my way through the entire thread).  ;D

Chau
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 31, 2010, 07:24:02 AM
Jackie Tran,

The lower bake temperature in my home oven and the longer bake, did give this crumb a little drier texture than a faster bake as in my commercial oven or BBQ grill set-up.  It still was very good in my opinion, but just a little different. 

I think the KASL has a protein content of about 14.2 %.  If you want me to send you enough flour to test two dough balls out, let me know and I could probably send you some next week.  This flour is an unbleached and unbromated flour.

I donít mix this formula by hand. This is mixed in my commercial mixer at market. I just said I thought it could be mixed by hand.  Most of the doughs I make at home are mixed by hand.  The reason I said in my other post that I didnít think this dough would be suited for a food processor is because of adding the poolish, which is very sticky.  I could be wrong about mixing this dough in a food processor.  I never tried mixing this dough in a food processor.

How I mix this dough is first weigh out the flour and IDY for the poolish  I use a whisk to distribute the yeast into the flour, then add the water and mix this all together.  I used a spatula to mix the poolish.  For one or two dough ball this can be mixed by hand.  It will look like a really thick pancake batter.  Cover and let this poolish sit out at room temperature, (or use a proofing box) until this mixture starts to bubble.  This can take varying amounts of time, all depending on what the ambient temperature is.  Then keep the poolish covered and cold ferment for 3 days.  Then add the final dough mix.  I add the water and poolish together, then flour (all the flour at one time), IDY on one side and salt on the other side and mix until the ingredients come together and look throughly mixed. Then add the olive oil and continue mixing until the olive oil is incorporated into the dough.  Next ball and let cold ferment for 1 day.  The dough should be ready to use then.  My commercial mixer does this fast, but I am not sure how long it will take to hand mix. 

Here is a link to show what the poolish should look like and the final dough.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg93116.html#msg93116

Anymore questions, just ask.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on July 31, 2010, 08:30:54 AM
Norma,

When I suggested that you try to make a pizza in your home oven that is "identical" to what you make at market, I did not stop to think that you cannot make a 16" pizza in your home oven. That would have been the best test to determine whether it is the oven or the dough formulation that is more responsible for the oven spring in your case. Can you tell me the size of the pizza you made, the size of your pizza stone, and the oven rack position you used to make your last pizza? I assume that you used the same dough ball weight as you use at market.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 31, 2010, 09:01:14 AM
Peter,

I can make a 16" pizza in my home oven. Sometimes there are problems with me loading a 16" pie and getting it on the baking stone, in my home oven. The pizza stone is 16" in diameter and I have four rack positions in my home oven and I used the second to the top rack position for this pie.  The dough ball weight was the same as my 16" pizza at market.

The only reason I let this dough a little thicker was to see if I had the same results as when I left a small dough ball a little thicker at market, and seeing if that also could get the better oven spring, if I let the rim and skin thicker.  That is what happened with this pie.  The rim did get about the same amount of oven spring, if the dough was left thicker and the rim was made bigger. 

In some ways, you are right that this is not ďidenticalĒ to my regular pizza at market, but in my opinion when I let the smaller dough balls thicker in my home BBQ grill set-up and at market in my commercial oven, these results were about the same, except this pie was a little bit drier, when baked in my home oven.  I attribute that to the longer bake time.

Donít you think this test showed anything about this dough and handling techniques?

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on July 31, 2010, 10:13:37 AM
Donít you think this test showed anything about this dough and handling techniques?


Norma,

My gut wants to say yes but when it comes to matters that are governed by science and technical factors I have learned that you really can't be definitive in the conclusions unless the two things to be compared are as close to each other as possible. To do the best comparison in this case, one would have to use the same dough batch weight, the same dough condition (e.g., fresh dough or frozen dough, but not one of each), the same skin thickness (thickness factor), the same pizza size, and the same types and amounts of sauce, cheese and other toppings. In your case, you might be able to make a smaller sized pizza for your home oven setup and stone but you would have to use a proportionate amount of sauce, cheese and toppings (which is based on the surface areas of the pizzas, as Tom Lehmann discusses, for example, at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7381&p=49812&hilit=#p49812). Even then, there would be the nagging feeling that the different pizza size is not exactly comparable to the other pizza size.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Jackie Tran on July 31, 2010, 11:10:00 AM
Jackie Tran,

The lower bake temperature in my home oven and the longer bake, did give this crumb a little drier texture than a faster bake as in my commercial oven or BBQ grill set-up.  It still was very good in my opinion, but just a little different. 

I think the KASL has a protein content of about 14.2 %.  If you want me to send you enough flour to test two dough balls out, let me know and I could probably send you some next week.  This flour is an unbleached and unbromated flour.

I donít mix this formula by hand. This is mixed in my commercial mixer at market. I just said I thought it could be mixed by hand.  Most of the doughs I make at home are mixed by hand.  The reason I said in my other post that I didnít think this dough would be suited for a food processor is because of adding the poolish, which is very sticky.  I could be wrong about mixing this dough in a food processor.  I never tried mixing this dough in a food processor.

How I mix this dough is first weigh out the flour and IDY for the poolish  I use a whisk to distribute the yeast into the flour, then add the water and mix this all together.  I used a spatula to mix the poolish.  For one or two dough ball this can be mixed by hand.  It will look like a really thick pancake batter.  Cover and let this poolish sit out at room temperature, (or use a proofing box) until this mixture starts to bubble.  This can take varying amounts of time, all depending on what the ambient temperature is.  Then keep the poolish covered and cold ferment for 3 days.  Then add the final dough mix.  I add the water and poolish together, then flour (all the flour at one time), IDY on one side and salt on the other side and mix until the ingredients come together and look throughly mixed. Then add the olive oil and continue mixing until the olive oil is incorporated into the dough.  Next ball and let cold ferment for 1 day.  The dough should be ready to use then.  My commercial mixer does this fast, but I am not sure how long it will take to hand mix. 

Here is a link to show what the poolish should look like and the final dough.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg93116.html#msg93116

Anymore questions, just ask.

Norma

Thank you Norma for offering to send me a sample of KASL flour but that won't be necessary.  My Sams Club HG flour should be around the 14% range and will suffice even if it's bleached and bromated.  My real intentions for this project is to play around with cold fermented preferment a bit and see if I can glean any new ideas or knowledge, which I'm sure I will.  Thanks for clarifying the hand mixing issue.  I agree that using a food processor could be a sticky situation.  :-D
I will employ the power of the straight dough method to achieve around a 65% HR.  Again, I know it won't be following your recipe exactly but it should give me similar results and the lessons I learn about using a cold fermented preferment won't be affected by HR. 

Thank you for noting the steps inwhich you mix up your dough by hand.  I'm sure it will become very useful for those who are interested in making your pizza.   I have already mixed up the preferment last night using ADY instead of IDY.  The preferment is looking quite robust this morning.  i will keep an eye out for the big bubbles or for the high activity level as a sign for when to cold ferment.   Thank you for your help and I will post up pics as they come in.

Norma your pies always have those nice great big voids.  :)  I can get mine that way but do so by employing a stretch and fold technique part way through the fermenting process.  I've been curious to know (or figure out) if your voids come incidentally through the use of a cold fermented preferment (say that 3 times as fast as you can) or if they are injected in during the dough handling procedure.  BTW it is my belief that those big voids also play a big part in oven spring. For these test pies I'll leave out the stretch and fold on 1 ball to see if there is a difference in the end bake.  Should be interesting.

Cheers,
Chau

Whoops I keep forgetting to ask you.  Do your pies have a sour(dough) taste to them at all?  With as much yeast as required and a 4 day cold ferment I would think that they do.   Thx
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 31, 2010, 11:14:54 AM
Peter,

I enjoy pizza making and learning how dough behaves.  I am not always into the matters that are governed by science and technical factors.  I can see how if everything is not exactly the same there can be variances.

I think I will just stay on course and study this dough, the best I can without getting too technical.  :-D

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 31, 2010, 11:25:49 AM
Jackie Tran,

I found out over time that the poolish part of this dough doesnít have to have really big bubbles after I tested it for awhile.  I learned this over time.  It will still keep fermenting while it is cold fermenting for 3 days.  Now I only let the poolish part start to show some bubbles on the poolish and then cold ferment.  You will find when you get this poolish out after 3 days, that it will be a sticky mixture.  You can then decide if you want to add the water to the poolish to make it easier to remove from your container.  The poolish will smell wonderful.

Thanks for saying my pies have nice voids.  This has come from studying this dough and trying different ideas.  Should be interesting to see how you make out without the stretch and folds.

The crusts from this poolish preferment have no sourdough taste. 

Let me know if you need any other help.

Best of luck,  ;D

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 31, 2010, 11:38:12 AM
Jackie Tran,

Here is a tip heavy-d gave Peter for getting the poolish out of a container after the 3 day cold ferment, if you are interesting in reading it.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg94554.html#msg94554

Here is also a picture of how the poolish looks after I experimented with it for awhile, before the 3 day cold ferment.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg94752.html#msg94752   

If you look down in these pictures, this is how the poolish should look when it is cold fermented for 3 days.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg95017.html#msg95017

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Jackie Tran on July 31, 2010, 02:44:35 PM
Norma, thanks for posting that tip from heavy-D.  I'll definitely use it.  Also thanks for the pictures of the preferment.  That is helpful.  I'm glad there are other pictures earlier in this thread as well as I'm trying to use those as landmarks.

Here is what my preferment looked like right after I mixed it up vs. 13 hours later.  And I even used slightly less than the 3% noted in the recipe.  I swear its the altitude.  My gut instinct tells me it's ready to go to sleep. what are your thoughts? Should I let it ride another 6 hrs to see what happens?

Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 31, 2010, 03:41:10 PM
Jackie Tran,

Your poolish looks great to me and in my opinion it does look like it is ready to go to sleep.  I donít think I would let it ride another 6 hours, but that is up to you.  Earlier in this thread when I was just trying out the poolish, I let it sit in my kitchen and I think, but am not sure that it took less than a day for the poolish to develop to where yours is now. 

I hope your experiment goes well.  Wait until you smell that poolish, after it is sleeping for three days. 

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on August 03, 2010, 10:32:42 PM
Jackie Tran,

These are the pictures from four different pies that I baked today, at different times, that you said you wanted me to take. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg105093.html#msg105093 The first pie was baked first thing this morning.  The second pie was baked around 11:00 am.  This third pie was baked around 4:00 pm and the fourth pie was baked second to the last pie this evening. 

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on August 03, 2010, 10:34:21 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on August 03, 2010, 10:35:45 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on August 03, 2010, 10:37:52 PM
last of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Jackie Tran on August 03, 2010, 10:42:29 PM
Norma, thx for doing that.  All were baked at the same temps in the same oven I presume?   I can almost see the dough age through the day.  Seems like you get a bit more coloration to the crust as the day progresses.  I'll post an update to my preferment in a bit.  Got to load the pics.

Norma, so I just took the preferment out and mix it into the final dough.  Once done mixing I loosely formed a ball and it went into the fridge right away.  I plan on dividing it and balling it tomorrow when I first take it out of the fridge.  I let it come up to room temp or double in size before baking.  Is this normally how you do things? or do you divide and ball it before going into the fridge for the final 24 hours of cold ferment?

Chau
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on August 03, 2010, 10:45:27 PM
Norma, thx for doing that.  All were baked at the same temps in the same oven I presume?   I can almost see the dough age through the day.  Seems like you get a bit more coloration to the crust as the day progresses.  I'll post an update to my preferment in a bit.  Got to load the pics.

Jackie Tran,

Yes, the pies were all baked at the same temperatures in the same oven.  It was my oven at market. 
I am interested is seeing how you did with your preferment.   ;D

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Jackie Tran on August 03, 2010, 10:58:29 PM
Oh BTW, I forgot to say.  LOVE  those nice big voids and love the crumb shot on the last one.  I like getting those tiny hair like strands in there. 

So I decide to do the final mix tonight after a bit less than 2 and half days of cold ferment.  Sorry I couldn't wait the 3 days.   :P  Me too impatient.   I also had to weigh the preferment again so I scraped it out of the bowl and place it on the plastic sheet thus the upskirt shot.

I was able to dissolve most of the preferment in the water and with the last chunk, I just cut it up with scissors into small chunks before the mix.  The last picture is of the final dough ball.  I'll put it to sleep for 24 hours.  I plan on dividing and balling it tomorrow once it comes out of the fridge and let it come up to room temp or till doubled before baking. 

I also plan on doing stretch and folds with one of the 2 balls.  I hope to get nice big voids like you. :)

Chau
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on August 03, 2010, 11:08:54 PM
Jackie Tran,

Thanks for saying you love the big voids and crumb in the last pie.   :)

I usually donít dissolve the preferment in the water, I just add it to the water and then mix.  I am anxious to see how you like your pies using a poolish.  :)

Thanks for posting the pictures and telling me what you did.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on August 03, 2010, 11:17:30 PM
Norma, so I just took the preferment out and mix it into the final dough.  Once done mixing I loosely formed a ball and it went into the fridge right away.  I plan on dividing it and balling it tomorrow when I first take it out of the fridge.  I let it come up to room temp or double in size before baking.  Is this normally how you do things? or do you divide and ball it before going into the fridge for the final 24 hours of cold ferment?


Chau,

Norma can correct me but I believe she does the dough division before going into her cold storage unit. I believe that she also uses a fairly short temper time.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Jackie Tran on August 03, 2010, 11:17:56 PM
Norma, did you see reply #566.  I added a few questions while you were typing I think so you may have missed them.

I'm typically not a fan of cold ferments b/c my (pizza) balls tend to dry out.  But I think I've found a work around for that.  When I proof them, I'll cover them with a moist cloth which should prevent that.  Who knows, this may be the bake that changes my views on cold ferments forever.  :D

This is very different than my typically routine for a cold ferment dough so I'm very excited about the possible outcomes.  I hope to get something very different than what I usually do.  If that happens then I'll be very happy.  I'm already learning some new things from this process.  

Once the dough is out of the fridge after the 24 hour cold ferment, how long do you typically proof it for and at what temps before they are baked?  Or do you go by visual cues or both?  You also proof them inside plastic bags correct?

Thx,
Chau

Thanks Peter,  I was typing while you were as well.  I'll just leave the questions up. 
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on August 03, 2010, 11:56:33 PM
Jackie Tran,

No, I didnít see that you edited your other post at reply #566.  Peter is right that after I do the final dough mix, I then weigh and ball my dough right away.  I only let the dough balls come up to room temperature or maybe not that all the time.  It all depends on the ambient room temperature.  Today, Steve and I did an experiment with this dough.  We just took it out of the deli case and used the dough right away.  The last pie was done this way.  It didnít seem to affect this pie in any way. 

It will be interesting to see if this will change your views on cold ferments.  Itís good you have already learn some new things while trying this dough.  For me this dough is very versatile.  Now I am trying the new sour dough mix for the Lehmann dough.  That sour dough mix is very interesting.

To answer your question on how long you should let this dough set out, I posted before you have to watch this dough.  In the winter the dough can sit out for much longer.  Now, in the summer I really have to watch this dough.  If it becomes to warm, then it will want to become unmanageable.  You will be able to see more bubbles forming in the dough if it sets out for too long.  I do keep my dough balls in the plastic bags all the time, until I am ready to use them.  I think the bake temperature could be anywhere between 525-550 degrees F.  I never tried temperatures in between last weeks really high bake and what I normally use.

Best of luck,  ;D

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on August 04, 2010, 01:06:34 PM
I canít find a link to the exact article, but in the magazine Bon Appetit on page 90 there is an article on Rootís Market, titled ď Pennsylvania Dutch Treatí by Mark Rozzo.  I will have to buy that magazine to see the full article. http://www.bonappetit.com/magazine/toc/august_2010_toc  I found out about the article from a newsletter I received each month from Rootís Market.  This is what the newsletter says.

ROOT'S    "IN THE NEWS"   

 "Local farmers, particularly Amish and Mennonite, are always found at the Dutch country's abundant farmers' markets, including Root's Country Market & Auction, my favorite, outside East Petersburg.   It's a sprawling, ramshakle complex where goats, chickens, ducks and rabbits are auctioned off every Tuesday and all manner of Dutch goodies (from Lebanon bologna to guilty-pleasure whoopie pies you eat right on the spot) can be purchased from the farmers, butchers, and bakers who made them."     Pennsylvania Dutch Treat by Mark Rozzo, Bon Appetit Magazine, August, 2010

"If you really want to make a day of it... Here is (one of two) fantastic markets that combine indoor and outdoor vendors that I promise will make the drive and day worthwhile.   Every Tuesday as well as the first Saturday of each month, Root's Country Market & Auction in Manheim, PA is a farm shoppers dream. ... They have just about everything for sale from produce, plants, flowers and food stands with amazing prices to Florida type flea market items and live farm animals such as chickens, roosters, goats, etc." ... "There's even a "Pickle Lady" stall indoors... who makes the best homemade pickles I've ever tasted, in more varieties than you can imagine.   There are about four huge indoor buildings, as well as maybe hundreds of outdoor vendors..."     Best Tastes by Ilene Spector, Special Writer, Baltimore Jewish Times,   July 2, 2010

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on August 04, 2010, 06:29:51 PM

This article was an insert in our local newspaper yesterday.  It is about how Rootís Market started, how many stands are there and also the auctions they hold at Root's. This market is where I make my preferment Lehmann dough and also sell my pizzas.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Jackie Tran on August 04, 2010, 08:53:34 PM
Norma, I'm baking the pizzas tonight and hope to do well.  The final dough has been cold fermenting for 24 hours.  The top had a dry skin on it, but i went ahead had shaved it off since I have extra dough.  I'm only using 182 gm per doughball since my MBE can't handle big pies.

Pic 1 is the doughball coming out of the fridge.  As you can see in comparison to the last pic in reply #568, the doughball has risen a bit in the fridge.  I divided the dough and cut each down to 182gm.  The left one I balled up and the right one I added 4 quick folds to it before balling.  You can see the skin is a bit tighter on that one.   I'll let them come up to room temp for about 2 hours and plan on baking them at around 650F for 4 mins or so.

I hope I will still be able to open them easily despite balling them up after the cold ferment.  It's possible that the the warm up won't be enough time to allow the gluten to relax again enough to open the dough easily.  I guess I will find out. 

Chau
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on August 04, 2010, 09:34:03 PM
Jackie Tran,

I hope your bake goes well tonight, too.  I wonder why the top got a dry skin.  I hope you will be able to open them up, despite dividing after the cold ferment.  Your dough balls look a lot drier than mine.

Best of luck and I will be looking forward to your results.  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Jackie Tran on August 04, 2010, 09:54:34 PM
Norma I covered the top of the bowl with saran tightly and will often see a bit of moisture collect on the underside.   Believe it or not the hydration of this dough is 68% vs your 61%.  I believe there are 2 reasons for this.  First mixing by hand inevitable yields a higher hydration and 2ndly, the high altitude and arid climate wicks moisture from my dough at an incredible rate.  To balance this lost of moisture out I have to purposely mix a much wetter dough.  I just may have to start cold ferment and/or proofing them inside plastic bags as you do. 

Now you can see my previous dissatisfaction with cold ferments.  But I have them proofing on the counter with a moist towel over them so that should prevent further moisture lost.   I'll post pics later. 
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on August 04, 2010, 10:04:54 PM
Jackie Tran,

When I had dry dough in the Ultra-Thin thread I did oil my dough balls more then, but it is good that you can see some moisture forming on the saran wrap. Did you oil these dough balls at all?  I donít know what high altitude does to dough, but low humidity here in the winter doesnít seem to affect this dough.  I can see by mixing by hand, there can be different results with this dough.  Itís hard for me to see myself using a 68% hydration for this dough, in my setting.  The plastic bags seem to keep the moisture in for me.  I just purchase a case of food safe bags at my local restaurant store.  They are fairly inexpensive.  One case would last you for awhile.  There are 1,000 bags in a case.   :-D

Looking forward to your results.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Jackie Tran on August 04, 2010, 11:53:06 PM
OK Norma, the results.   Some pluses and minuses.

First off, balling them after the last cold ferment was definitely a mistake.  Even though I didn't handle them much to ball them, the gluten had already been developed so the balling overdeveloped the gluten structure and made it very hard to open.  I ended up with pizza pot pies b/c of this.

I think I could have let them proof for 3 hours but when I stretched them out at 2hours, they were still quite cool to the touch and not as puffy as I would have like. I think if I had let them go to the 3rd hour I would have gotten more voids in the dough.  I didn't wait for the 3rd hour b/c it was getting late and the oven was ready.  :-[

Here's what the balls looked like after proofing 2H.  Here's a stretched out skin.  I wanted 10" but could only get 8".  The one with extra stretch and folds had no extra voids in it compared to the one without.  I was impress to see a few voids in the rim of the ball that didn't have the extra stretch and folds. 

The plain cheese had the extra folds.
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Jackie Tran on August 04, 2010, 11:58:05 PM
These were baked at 650-675 for about 4 min.  Got great spring on both pies.   I stuck the cheese pie under the broiler for a bit to brown the top but I FORGOT to watch it carefully.  What a noobish mistake.  The pie burned.  :'(

The white pie (2nd one and the one without the extra folds) baked up great.  Had some nice voids in it.  It was better than the cheese pie by far. 

Here are both pies side by side.  And some crumb shots of the better white pie.  The white pie had these nice spider webs inside the voids.  I'm also posting parts of the crumb that didn't have voids.
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Jackie Tran on August 05, 2010, 12:03:27 AM
Here are the crumb shots of the cheese pie (had the extra stretch and folds).  This pie not only burned but the crumb was not as good.  The crumb shots show evidence of overgluten development from the extra folds. 

Overall both pies were decent but a little too doughy to me.  Tasted like a good bread though.  That was my fault for balling them after the last cold ferment.  Had I not done that I'm positve I would have been able to open them up to 10".  I think that they still would have been a bit too doughy for my taste considering the preferment is about 64% of the final dough. 


This was a very good experiment for me as I learned a lot from it.   Thanks for the help Norma.  If I repeat this again, I would definitely divide and ball the dough prior to the last cold ferment and skip the extra stretch and folds. 

Chau
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on August 05, 2010, 12:10:47 AM
Jackie Tran,

I can see if you would have done the balling, right after the mixing, then you probably wouldnít have those problems in stretching out the dough. I can understand you didnít want to wait for three hours because it is getting late and of course you oven was ready. 

I see you did get nice oven spring and I really like the spider web inside the voids.  ;D  I enjoyed looking at your pies and you did a great job, in making these pies with the short amount of time you had to let the gluten restructure.

I enjoyed watching you progress and seeing your results.  Itís good you learned from this experiment. 

Thanks for doing the experiment and seeing how you like this kind of pie. All the pies you make in different ways, can always teach you something.  At least each experiment I do teaches me something about what I would like to achieve.

Great job,  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Jackie Tran on August 05, 2010, 12:23:56 AM
Thanks Norma.  I too like the spiderwebs and had not seen this much of it in other pizzas that I've made.  I wonder if it has to do with the high preferment and relatively high % of yeast.  ???  I was also impress to see voids forming in the dough on their own (white pie) despite the lack of the extra stretch and fold I normally use to trap air. 

I'm not sure but feel it may be due to the yeast % more than my handling of the dough.  Of course I always open dough up as carefully as I can so as not to disturb the bubbles that are there.  By relatively high yeast % I'm referring to the 3% in the preferment, and then the 4% in the final dough.  Also I forgot to mention that as you had said, there is no sourdough taste to this dough. 

Chau
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on August 05, 2010, 08:23:01 AM
Jackie Tran,

Here is when Peter set-forth this formula for this dough.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg88687.html#msg88687 If you are interested you can read why he decided on how much yeast to use in the poolish and also the final dough.

Itís good you did get voids without the stretch and folds, that you normally use to trap air.  In my opinion, when each person makes the same dough, there can be many variations because each person isnít going to go about making the same dough in exactly the same ways.  Handling of each person of the dough is different also.  Oven temps, the kind of oven or oven set-up can also affect the same formula.  When I bake this same dough in my BBQ grill set-up there is a different texture to the crust.  You use a high-gluten bleached, bromated flour and in my experiences with that kind of flour, I probably would get a much different pizza with this same formula. 

One thing I wonder as you were going about making the poolish was you said you had to cut the poolish.  I had wondered about that, but didnít say anything until you finished this pizza.  Could you explain how the texture was like of the poolish that you needed to cut it.  After my poolish cold ferments for three days, it is just like a sticky gelatin.  Something like a blob, when I pull some of it out of the container.  I never need to cut it.  I also wondered what the greasy like substance was in this picture of you poolish. Image 4675 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg105575.html#msg105575
The only other thing I was curious about was whether you oiled the dough balls at all?

Thanks for going into detail all what you experimented with in this dough,

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on August 05, 2010, 10:05:58 AM
I think that they still would have been a bit too doughy for my taste considering the preferment is about 64% of the final dough. 

Chau,

Can you tell me where the 64% figure comes from and how it was calculated?

Quote
By relatively high yeast % I'm referring to the 3% in the preferment, and then the 4% in the final dough.

Did you mean 0.30% and 0.40%? Normally, I would leave out the percents in the preferment and final mix displays but left them in this time in case I ever have to audit the recipe some time in the future. The key number is the percent with respect to the total formula flour.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Jackie Tran on August 05, 2010, 10:22:19 AM
Norma I agree with you, there are just so many variables to attribute to the voids to say it's simply this or that.   Sorry I didn't answer your questions earlier.  

-The preferment is as you said.  It's gelatin in nature.  Very gooey.  I scraped it out of the bowl with a spoon and into the liquid mixture (water, dissolve salt & ADY, and olive oil).  I stirred the poolish around for a few minutes and noted that about 70% of the poolish had dissolved into the liquid mixture.   The remaining 30% that did not dissolve (small clump shown in the picture), I held it up over the bowl with a fork and used scissors to snip off tiny bits into the water.  This was done so when the flour was incorporated, I would get an even mix of the poolish remnants throughout the dough.  

The greasy slick seen in pic 4675 and 4676 is the olive oil before and after stirring.  

Also I didn't oil the balls as I usually do before cold ferment b/c I knew I would be balling them the next day.  I didn't want the oil on the undersurface of the dough to make it too difficult to ball.  I was concern that the dough (gluten) wouldn't meld together well if there was additional oil.  So I just dusted the bottom of the bowl with flour instead.  that's why the doughball turned over onto the scale looks dry.
In the future I will definitely ball it up before cold fermentation (never after) b/c as it has been stated before cold fermentation develops a ton of gluten.  And I will also do the last cold ferment and proof in plastic bags to keep the moisture in.  That's a good technique for the climate I'm in.  

I was happy with the white pie and confident had I balled them prior to the last cold ferment my results would have been even better.  

It's interesting to note that just an addition of a few (4) folds create a drastically different crumb look and texture in the same dough formula.  Also that balling/folding/manipulating the dough at different stages of fermentation can drastically affect the outcome.   Again verifying your hunch that your oven spring is in part affected by your management/handling of the dough.    

Cheers,
Chau
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Jackie Tran on August 05, 2010, 10:30:12 AM
Chau,

Can you tell me where the 64% figure comes from and how it was calculated?

Did you mean 0.30% and 0.40%? Normally, I would leave out the percents in the preferment and final mix displays but left them in this time in case I ever have to audit the recipe some time in the future. The key number is the percent with respect to the total formula flour.

Peter

Yes you are correct Peter.  I meant to say 0.3% and 0.4%.  Sorry about the typo.  :-[

The 64% value I quoted is 64% of the final flour weight.  So 151gm of preferment divided by 235gm of flour in the final mix = 64%.   In my case I used 134gm of preferment to 209gm of flour to get 64%.    :-[  My hydration ratio was estimate by dividing the preferment in 2 and adding 67gm to each the flour and water weight in the final mix.  It came out to about 67%. 

Let me know if I messed up somewhere.  Math is not one of my strong points. 
Chau
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on August 05, 2010, 10:30:38 AM
Jackie Tran,

Thanks for going into detail what you did with this dough.  :) When I make this poolish and final dough, I only add the olive oil at the end of the final mix.  That small clump that you needed to snip off still has me wondering what that was. 

I find it interesting too that your stretch and folds did create a drastically different looking crumb.  I am still studying all the effects dough management and handling techniques have to do with a finished pizza.  I probably will be studying that forever.  :-D

Thanks.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Jackie Tran on August 05, 2010, 10:37:26 AM
Norma, I keep forgetting to say that I was very please that the crumb on the white pie resembles the crumb in some of your previous pics (picture #4086 in reply #565).  I'm referring to the fine hair like spider web gluten strands. 

I was please to get a similar looking crumb and a few big voids despite using ADY, a different flour, hand mixing, a higher hydration ratio, balling the dough at the wrong time, baking at a higher temp and using a different oven, and my general lack of attention to detail.   :-D

Chau
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on August 05, 2010, 10:55:56 AM
Jackie Tran,

I just find your whole experiment interesting no matter what kind of flour, baking temperatures, different kind of yeast, hand mixing, higher hydration and different handling methods.  It all shows how differently one dough formula can act for each different person.  Just one variable can change a pizzas outcome.  Put into that many variables and who knows what can happen.  ::)  You do a great job with any kind of dough.  ;D

Thanks again for doing the experiment.  It was all interesting to me.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on August 05, 2010, 11:24:20 AM
The 64% value I quoted is 64% of the final flour weight.  So 151gm of preferment divided by 235gm of flour in the final mix = 64%.   In my case I used 134gm of preferment to 209gm of flour to get 64%.    :-[  My hydration ratio was estimate by dividing the preferment in 2 and adding 67gm to each the flour and water weight in the final mix.  It came out to about 67%. 

Chau,

Thanks for the explanation. The normal convention with respect to preferments is to relate them to the weight of the total formula flour, total formula water (the Italian way) or the total formula dough weight, and not to the final mix. However, that is a number that can be calculated and, if used consistently, might also be a meaningful number for analysis or planning purposes.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Jackie Tran on August 05, 2010, 12:03:59 PM
Thanks Peter, I'll make a note of that for future reference. 

Chau
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on August 08, 2010, 08:33:13 AM
Another way to use this dough.  I also posted this BBQ chicken pizza under General Pizza Making at  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11568.msg106016.html#msg106016 and also under the monthly challenge at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11496.msg106019.html#msg106019

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Jackie Tran on August 08, 2010, 09:04:57 AM
 :-D Norma that is a very creative way of making a pizza.  I thought I've heard it all but never would have thought of using a waffle iron. 

Speaking of waffles.  I haven't made waffles using starter in awhile and you've got me wanting some.  I'll post pics in your waffle thread if I get some time. 

Chau
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on August 08, 2010, 09:33:41 AM
Jackie Tran,

Thanks for saying that was a creative way of making a pizza.  :) You know how all of us are always trying to get even top and bottom heat, so when I was making the waffles, I was thinking what would be a better way to try this out because the waffle iron does get even heat on both plates.  This pizza would have had the really puffy rim, but then it also would have been puffy all over.  I had to laugh when I saw waffle iron lid rising from the baking pizza.  :-D Of course I couldnít keep baking that way, or one side would have been puffy and the other size would have been flat.

If you get to try the waffles with your starter, let me know how they turn out in terms of taste and also how the bake goes.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on August 11, 2010, 07:00:03 AM
This is the link to the article in Bon Appetit this month about Rootís Market, where I make this dough and where I have a market stand.  I find it funny that the author of this article correctly tells how to pronounce ďRootsĒ.  (Be advised that ďRootĒ rhymes with ďfoot.Ē)

http://www.safsf.org/documents/Lancaster_BonAppetit_Aug2010.pdf

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on August 11, 2010, 08:56:50 AM
Another use for this dough. This pizza is made with this same dough that Steve and I used yesterday, in an experiment in the 1/4 size convection oven, with a small soapstone. 

Although this pizza turned out good, Steve and I fouled up with the convection oven.  We had turned it on to heat the soapstone.  We didnít think, when we just used the timer to let us know when the soapstone might be hot enough to bake on.  We kept monitoring the temperature on the soapstone, top ceiling heat and other measurements inside the oven.  We did use an IR gun to measure the temperatures.  Both the top ceiling heat and other temperature were within 15 degrees of everyplace we measured.  I guess this was because the convection mode was on.  Well, when we thought the oven was hot enough, Steve loaded the pie.  Since I didnít have a small enough peel to load the pie, Steve made a peel out of a pizza box.  He was trying to be environmentally friendly and also had to have some way to load the pie onto the soapstone.  We watched the pie rise, because there is a window in the front of this oven.  We then looked and saw the light wasnít on for the convection mode.  The timer must have gone off and no buzzer sounded.  Then we switched the oven mode over to manual and continued baking.  I donít know if we lost any oven spring or what else might have been different, but next time we try this dough, we are going to make sure we have the oven on manual mode. We could have tried another pizza, in the convection oven, because I did have another small dough ball, but by that time with the big pizza oven on, the heated humidified humidity holding cabinet, the heat blowing from the deli case, heat blowing from the pizza prep refrigerator and this convection oven on, it was just getting too hot.  Temperatures inside the market stand were about 96 degrees F.

Pictures below,

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on August 11, 2010, 08:57:35 AM
last of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: haybot on August 16, 2010, 08:29:01 AM
Could someone point me to the latest recipe used? I would love to try my hands on something new.
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on August 16, 2010, 08:57:40 AM
Could someone point me to the latest recipe used? I would love to try my hands on something new.

haybot,

This is the link for one dough ball.  The next step up is five dough balls.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg90226.html#msg90226   

If you need any other instructions or donít understand how to go about this formula, let me know and I will try and help or provide the links.

Norma

Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on August 17, 2010, 08:03:44 PM
It was one of those days. :(  I usually sleep all night long without waking up, but awoke in the middle of the night not feeling too hot.  When it was time to get up this morning, I felt worse and couldnít decide if I would make it at market all day in the heat.  I got ready, but kept feeling worse.  I knew I had to decide what to do because my dough balls and sauce were at market. By the time I arrived at market I was even feeling worse, so I decided to freeze all the dough balls and sauce.  I had to go to the office and pay electric and propane and pick up some items for my mother.

I decided on my way, I would take some videos of the outside fruit and vegetable stands and also take a few videos of the flea market.  This is only part of the outside of Rootís market.  Someday when I have time, I will take some videos of all the meats, deli, cheese, poultry, bake stands, candy, fudge, subs, pickle stands and all the other stands that are inside the market.  If anyone is interested in seeing what some of the outside stands look like or how many vegetables and fruits are just on the outside of Rootís, these are the videos. Many of these standholders grow all their on vegetables and fruit. In the one video you can see the whoopie pies that our area is famous for. There are many more fruit and vegetable stands inside the buildings at Rootís.  Inside is where I make my pizzas and dough. These videos were taken early, so some of the standholders werenít set-up then or they were just getting ready.

Rootís Market Outside.  Some of the outside stands.  If you listen, the cicadas can be heard singing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSdPOSsyuyA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=id0sjiC4MTw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IMzh0nlmnI

Rootís Old Mill Flea Market and Antiques, across the street from Rootís Country Market.  Some of the flea market and antiques stands.  Third stand in on right was my old Funnel Cake, Ice Cream, Lemonade, and Mexican Food Stand.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwxPPHHAKrA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNyioqL5wDE

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: haybot on August 18, 2010, 10:46:48 AM
Thanks for the quick reply, because i didn't have that much time i had to cut the time in the fridge for the preferment to roughly 30hours. The finished dough, balled, rose quite a lot in the fridge over night. Is this normal or is this due to cutting the fermenting time of the preferment short? I don't think it overfermented (smells good) but i'm not sure about the signs for that. On one of the balls a large bubble showed. But the dough didn't seem to loose a lot of water or fell together or sth like this.

Is it possible that the dough was just warmer than normal and thereby rose more in the fridge? If its still rising it probably didn't overferment right?
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on August 18, 2010, 01:07:10 PM
haybot,

I donít think the amount of time your poolish was in the refrigerator did affect your finished dough ball.  It sounds to me like your final dough temperature might have been to high.  What did your poolish look like before you incorporated it into the final dough?  The signs of a large bubble on the dough ball could mean it is over fermenting.  What do you mean by the dough didnít seem to loose a lot of water?  If your dough ball keeps rising and forms bubbles, in my opinion you should use it shortly.  Since I canít see any pictures of how the dough ball looks, I am not sure what to tell you. If you can explain more and let me know when you plan to make a pizza, maybe I can be of some help. I will help whatever way I can.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on August 18, 2010, 10:02:40 PM
I used another preferment Lehmann small frozen dough ball this evening to make a blueberry and peach dessert pizza.  I modified my waffle iron so the hinged back could open up and not crush the crust.  This pizza was baked between the two plates of the waffle iron, that were held up with cannoli roll tubes.  The dessert pizza was dressed with a fresh blueberry syrup that I have made this past weekend.  I used apple wine, sugar, a little water, a few squeezes of lemon and cornstarch to make a slightly thick sauce for the peaches.  I also used whipped cream cheese to top this pie.  Some of the slices did have a slight dusting of confectionary sugar.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on August 18, 2010, 10:04:12 PM
rest of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: haybot on August 20, 2010, 03:58:10 PM
Norma,

i used the dough after 24 hours in the fridge and it really did overferment from what i can tell. The pizza tastet good but turned out quite crispy and didn't have that much oven spring and not a lot of coloration. The first pizzas were best but the others where the dough has been out of the fridge longer stayed quite white during baking. The poolish looked ok imo. Not much different than when i put it in the fridge it roughly doubled in size and had lots of small bubbles on top. I will do this again soon and document it proper (didn't have my camera around this time) and see what happens. Since the poolish was cold and the water i used for the final mix wasn't even hand warm i don't see how it could have been too warm but i don't have a thermometer to check it properly. Anyway i will do this again soon since the taste defenitly improved over my normal lehmann dough.
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on August 20, 2010, 04:54:49 PM
haybot,

That interesting that you dough did overferment in 24 hrs. Did you check on the bottom of your dough balls to see if there were a lot of bubbles or anymore big bubbles on the top of the dough ball?  The doubling in size of the poolish with small bubbles on top sounds like it was okay.  I usually strive for a final dough temperature for this dough of about 73 degrees F.  I find if it gets to high the dough wants to ferment to fast.  I have seen this when I had done multiple experiments at market with different final dough temperatures.  Could you tell me what kind of oven set-up you have and if you bake on a stone or what rack you bake your pizzas on.  That could be something that is affecting the coloration of the crust.  Also what kind of flour do you use?  I think this pizza made with the preferment does have a better flavor than a regular Lehmann dough crust.  I donít know why your pizza didnít have better oven spring, but it could have also been from overfermentation.  This dough took me awhile to understand.  I have found when letting the dough balls warm-up that I have to watch them to see if they start to develop too many bubbles.  Then I know to either use the dough balls to make pizzas or put them back into the fridge.

If you decide to try this formula again and have more questions, I will try to help.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: haybot on August 21, 2010, 04:42:36 AM
I'm using an electric oven with the pizza stone on the lowest rack. The temperature of the oven is 300įC. For the flour i used a blend of 70% flour with a protein content of 9,8% and 30% one with 11.2 %. Thats pretty much the highest you can get in germany. Above that you end up with whole wheat flour which i don't favour for pizza.
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on August 21, 2010, 07:14:28 AM
haybot,

From what you just explained to me about your oven temperatures it sounds to be about 572 degrees F in our conversion from Celsius to Fahrenheit.  I am not good at figuring that out, but from what I can see on conversion temperatures from the web, that oven temperature should have been good in baking your pizzas. 

I am not experienced in using flour with your protein content.  My flour I use is a high-gluten flour and has a protein content of around 14.2 %.  That is another reason maybe your  pizza didnít get as much of coloration in the crust, in my opinion.  I donít know anything about flours from Germany or if your flours have other added ingredients or not..  It is interesting to hear about other countries and what they have available in terms of flour.  Maybe you could try to use the flour you have access to that is 11.2 %.  At least that would get the protein up some. 

From what you explained to me in you past post, I would tend to believe you dough overfermented.  Since you said you water wasnít that warm that you used in the final dough, I am not to sure about that.  Do you mix by hand or have a mixer?  If you knead the dough by hand or even have a mixer, if you knead the dough too long, your hand temperatures can even up the final dough temperature.  If mixing by a mixer a long mix time can also help the final dough temperature to become to high.  Maybe you could try a cooler water temperature for the final dough mix. 

Your oven spring could also be related to different things.  It could be your flour or how you open the dough.  In my experience, when you open the dough balls, try to keep an edge or rim and not try to press much on that.  Just gently press you fingers around the middle and then try to slide you pie around in circles, while pressing on the middle.  When you made your regular Lehmann dough were there problems with oven spring?  If not, then I would tend to believe some of your problems were related to you dough overfermenting.

If you have a chance and want to try this dough again, if you could post some pictures of what your dough balls look like, maybe I could help you more.

Let me know if you need any other ideas.  I am not an expert on any of this.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on September 05, 2010, 12:55:30 PM
Another use for this preferment Lehmann dough.  I used a small frozen dough ball and made a pizza on the Panini Grill this morning. I heated the Panini Grill up and decided to try to grill a pizza on it because it does have even top and bottom heat. The bake of this pizza went well.

This pizza was dressed with ham, pineapple, green peppers, Rayís BBQ sauce, cheddar cheese and fresh tomatoes.   The ham, pineapples and green peppers were first grilled on my regular BBQ grill, which gave them a smoky taste. 

Pictures below

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on September 05, 2010, 12:57:53 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on September 06, 2010, 09:21:29 PM
Norma

Another use for this preferment Lehmann dough.  I decided to do an experiment with this dough right after I incorporated the poolish into the final dough..  I cut one dough ball into 3 pieces.  Stretched and folded each piece different times and then took the dough pieces home.  They were left at room temperature to ferment for 6 hours. I never used this dough the same day I make it before today. It is usually balled and cold fermented for 1 day.  I took the pieces out of a plastic bag and stretched and folded again and then lightly floured them and put them on the baking stone in the oven.  What was made from the divided dough ball, was sausage buns for Hot Italian Sausage.

Pictures below,

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: DenaliPete on September 07, 2010, 12:02:33 PM
Norma i feel I'm going to have to pay even closer attention to your posts and progress, because the things you make all look wonderful.
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on September 07, 2010, 09:13:05 PM
Norma i feel I'm going to have to pay even closer attention to your posts and progress, because the things you make all look wonderful.

DenaliPete,

Thanks for saying the things I make look wonderful.   :)  I am always experimenting with something.  Today I made cinnamon, brown sugar, butter pinwheels with this dough.  I didn't take any pictures though. 

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on September 15, 2010, 06:35:08 AM
I decided to do a little experiment on mixing times on Monday for this dough.  I use a Hobart 20 qt. mixer.  I decided to mix one dough batch for 6 minutes and another dough batch for 20 minutes.  These are some of the pictures of the different pizzas from both a shorter mix time and a much longer mix time.  When using my mixer it didnít seem to matter if the mix time was shorter or longer in achieving oven spring and handling dough after a one day ferment.   

Another experiment from yesterday. Steve and I both experimented with making cinnamon sticky buns from preferment dough made into cinnamon sticky buns yesterday.  We used two dough balls for this experiment and let the one cut, wrapped up cinnamon bun dough proof for longer to see what would happen with the bake.  I didnít look at a recipe for cinnamon buns before we made these cinnamon bun rolls yesterday.  I had made cinnamon buns at home before and just guessed at the ingredients that would go into making cinnamon sticky buns from a preferment pizza dough.  I will do this experiment again, after looking at what ingredients should go into making this large of pan of preferment dough cinnamon sticky buns. We also hand stretched this dough.  The next time I am going to try a rolling pin to roll out the dough.

Pictures below of first and second experiment

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on September 15, 2010, 06:37:47 AM
End of pictures of different mixing times pizzas

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on September 15, 2010, 06:39:30 AM
Experimental cinnamon sticky buns from preferment dough.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on September 15, 2010, 06:39:54 AM
end of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Matthew on September 15, 2010, 06:41:11 AM
End of pictures of different mixing times pizzas

Norma

Looking good!
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on September 15, 2010, 06:46:29 AM
Looking good!

Matt,

Thanks for saying the different mixing times pizzas looked good.  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on September 16, 2010, 09:13:45 PM
I used the preferment Lehmann dough to do another experiment. The dough ball was frozen and I left it in the refrigerator to defrost.  The warm-up time for this dough ball was 1 Ĺ hrs. I placed soapstone on the third rack from the top and placed a cordierite stone on the top rack position of my home oven. 

The pie was dressed with Lesís sauce and Grande Bocconini Flor-di-Latte mozzarella.  After the pie was baked, I placed opal and regular basil from my garden on the middle of the pie. 

Even when using the same dough that I use at market, this pie tasted a lot different.  The crust browned much different than my deck oven.  The bottom crust was also a lot more crunchy than the pies I make at market.  I can understand when each person makes the same formula and bakes in different ways, the results can be very different.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on September 16, 2010, 09:14:29 PM
rest of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on September 29, 2010, 06:58:15 AM
These two pictures are just of two pizzas taken later on in the afternoon.  Since our weather is changing in our area, I am finding in the last two weeks that my poolish isnít behaving the same way as before. When I mix it on Friday and keep it in the Hatco unit until it bubbles and then cold ferment the poolish until Monday, the poolish is developing a runny layer on the bottom of the poolish.  This didnít happen before.  It is almost watery on the bottom of the containers.  The rest of the poolish looks normal.  The final dough looks okay, but I am finding that most of my pizzas are getting darker in color and also there seems to be more oven spring.   I donít know if all this relates to the different poolish, but will keep watching to see what happens.  If the poolish behaves the same way by next week, I will take a picture of the poolish before I incorporate it into the final dough.  I know by each picture that is taken there can be a wide difference in how a pizza looks.

Pictures below

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on September 29, 2010, 10:33:09 AM
Norma,

Those are interesting developments that bear watching. Did you find that you liked the latest pizzas better as a result?

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on September 29, 2010, 10:51:29 AM
Norma,

Those are interesting developments that bear watching. Did you find that you liked the latest pizzas better as a result?

Peter

Peter,

I had just thought last week, that I might have done something wrong in mixing the poolish, but this week the same thing happened and I was careful to make sure I did everything the same.  I donít know what is happening with the poolish, but will continue to watch how it behaves.  I never had this problem with my poolish before and was wondering if it was the cooler weather or humidity in the flour.  I can be sure of what is going on, until I watch in the next few weeks.  When the finished dough balls are in the fridge they seem to ferment faster too.  When I left the dough ball sit out to warm up, last week and this week, I had to use them sooner or they wanted to overferment. 

I think the last two weeks pizzas did look better.  I canít say they tasted much different though.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on September 29, 2010, 11:19:17 AM
Norma,

With cooler outside temperatures I would normally expect fermentation to slow down, not speed up. However, looking at your photos, I see a profusion of fermentation blisters that are more indicative of long fermentation. You might use your pH meter to take a few pH measurements along the way. Those values might not be the same as the values you have been taking with your Ischia culture/dough but they might tell us something nonetheless. There is a relationship between residual sugar and pH, and their effect on oven spring, so some pH values might be useful to see where you might be on the spectrum.

For water to separate out of the poolish would seem to suggest that the poolish is overripe, with the protease enzymes attacking the gluten structure and releasing water from its bond. Again, I would think that higher temperatures rather than lower temperatures would be more likely to cause the release of the water.

You might also double check your Hatco unit and your deli case to see if they are operating properly from a temperature standpoint.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on September 29, 2010, 01:56:52 PM
Peter,

I also thought the same thing as why my dough seemed to be fermenting more since temperatures are down.  I will take the pH measurements of the poolish and some dough balls before I do the bake.  I know they wonít be the same as the Ischia culture/dough, but they might be able to tell me something.  I did take the pH of one dough ball before the bake yesterday, but canít find where I put that paper.  I think it was about 5.66. 

I also thought about the poolish being overripe.  I had read before on the forum of using a poolish right before it fell. I never tried using a poolish at that point. That is about how both of the last weeks two poolishs looked.  Usually when I pull the poolish out of the containers it looks like a great gluten mass with many strands in the poolish.  The last two weeks the poolish didnít look like that.  It had some strands in it, but looked more like a blob.

I didnít think to check my Hatco unit, but I will take the temperature of the inside with my IR gun. I watch the temperatures on the Hatco unit, but they might not be accurate.  My cooling deli case still reads about the same temperature on both thermometers, but I will also try to check that temperature.  I just thought it might be the humidity or maybe my flour that had developed humidity in it, but I will try to see what could be causing this.  I did like the looks of these pizzas better, but sure donít want to have something wrong with the poolish and then not have good dough to use on a Tuesday.  I think I might have been close to not having good dough. I had just defrosted the deli case the other week after it was so warm and froze up on me.  It seemed fine now, but maybe the temperature isnít as low as it was before.

Thanks for letting me know what you think could have happened with these poolishs.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on September 29, 2010, 04:02:48 PM
Norma,

After I posted, I thought some more about your "problem" and whether adding some salt to your preferment would slow down the action of the enzymes in the dough. Ordinarily, one does not add salt to a preferment but I recalled that Prof. Calvel had mentioned doing this somewhere in his book. I then recalled that I had read somewhere about preferments becoming liquidy and that a proposed solution was to use a small amount of salt in the preferment. I had to do a search to find where I read it but I suspected that Didier Rosada discussed this subject. I found the discussion at the end of his article at http://web.archive.org/web/20050829015510/www.cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food4_dec2004.htm, specifically, the excerpt:

The same protease effect also happens in preferments such as sponge that do not have salt and ferment for a long time at room temperature. Room temperature (versus cooler temperature) favors enzyme activity. The absence of salt in the preparation encourages a higher rate of protease activity since protease is very salt sensitive.

Sometimes we notice that the inside of the preferment starts to liquefy, especially at the end of the maturation stage. This is due to an excess of enzyme activity, and can eventually compromise the characteristics of the final dough. To correct this problem, 0.1% to 0.2% salt can be added during the preparation of the preferment.


I think it is premature to consider adding salt to your preferment but I wanted to bring that possible solution to your attention in case we find it advisable to add some salt at some point. I personally don't think that the problem is humidity related. If that were a common problem, I believe I would have read about it somewhere and that I would have remembered it.

By any chance, did the crusts of the last pizzas have a reddish complexion? That sometimes indicates a problem with too much residual sugar.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on September 29, 2010, 09:52:22 PM
Peter,

Thank you for searching for what might be causing my problems with the poolish.  The link you referenced tells a lot about everything that goes on in dough.  I can understand how salt could help the excess enzyme activity in a poolish.

I also think to add salt right now is premature, because I am not sure at this point, what my problems are.  Maybe I will know more on Friday, when I make the poolish and take the temperatures of my Hatco unit and my deli case.  I wish my baked pizzas could keep this much oven spring and better browning, but I donít want to sacrifice by having a dough that might not work on a Tuesday.  Most customers on Tuesday picked the slices that had the most oven spring.  They said they really like the big rims.

I didnít really look to see if the pizzas had a reddish complexion.  I was just wondering why my pizzas looked different and also was wondering why my poolish was different.  I had made that poolish so many times and never had problems with it before, whether it was in colder weather or in the heat of summer.  I should have taken more pictures of the pizzas yesterday.  You might have been able to tell if I had taken more pictures is there was a reddish complexion on the crust.  I was also wondering how the Ischia culture/dough was going to work out.  Steve even noticed how fast my dough balls were fermenting on the bench while they were warming up.  I froze some dough balls last night and if I think about it tomorrow morning I will post a picture of how much those dough balls are fermented.  They were left in the pizza prep fridge all day.  I do know that fridge is really cold.  Even at the end of a hot summer day they are not that fermented.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on September 30, 2010, 10:01:37 AM
These are two pictures of how the frozen dough balls look today.  They expanded quite a more than usual, until the end of the day at market on Tuesday.  These dough balls were kept in the pizza prep refrigerator all day.  I put them next to a loaf of bread so it can be seen how large they are in the one picture.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on September 30, 2010, 10:48:14 AM
This isnít related to the Lehmann dough, but thought I remembered taking a pH of a dough before.  I searched this morning and found where I had posted on the pH of an experimental dough before.  That dough pH was 6.2 when I finished mixing it at Reply 173 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg84152.html#msg84152 On that dough I was experimenting to see if the dough could last for a long while, before being baked and I did have a much lower final dough temperature.  That dough did cold ferment for a long while.  I canít remember if it was 8 or longer days of cold fermenting, but I remember how that dough acted when I went to let it try to warm up at Reply 194 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg84593.html#msg84593

I now wished I would have taken the pH of that dough before doing the bake.  It might have been able to give me some clues on the crust coloration of that dough, because the first pH number was lower than my normal Lehmann dough or the one I am experimenting with the Ischia culture/dough. 

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on September 30, 2010, 11:14:04 AM
I now wished I would have taken the pH of that dough before doing the bake.  It might have been able to give me some clues on the crust coloration of that dough, because the first pH number was lower than my normal Lehmann dough or the one I am experimenting with the Ischia culture/dough. 


Norma,

Maybe I am misreading what you posted, but wasn't the 6.2 pH reading more than what you have been recording for the Ischia KASL dough? Also, by your "normal" Lehmann dough do you mean the basic Lehmann dough without the preferment or the one with the preferment?

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on September 30, 2010, 11:29:08 AM
Norma,

For clarification purposes, when I mentioned the "reddening" of the finished crust, I was looking at the second photo at Reply 623 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg112128.html#msg112128. Maybe it was the lighting when you took the photo that made the crust look redlike but that is the photo that prompted my question. Usually when a crust has too much residual sugar, and is manifested by excessive caramelization and Maillard reactions, it is because of a hyperdiastatic dough (excessive enzyme activity). I somewhat ruled out that possibility because, according to Prof. Calvel, a crust that has abnormal reddening suffers a serious decline in taste and aroma. The crust also has poor eating characteristics. I got the impression from what you posted that you very much liked the crust. I just wanted to rule out excessive enzyme activity if the conditions didn't support that possibility.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on September 30, 2010, 01:09:19 PM
Peter,

You werenít misreading what I posted.  I was the one that was confusing in my last post.  I was just wondering if I had taken the final pH before the bake of those pizzas, what that pH would have been. Since that dough had been fermented for so long, it just makes me curious what it was. I also meant my regular preferment Lehmann dough.  I have used that dough for so long, that sometimes in my head I just call it my regular Lehmann dough, because that is the dough I use every week. It has been awhile since I made a regular Lehmann dough. 

In those pictures that I posted it could have been the lighting that made those pictures look darker than they were.  I took those pictures just to show that my crusts were browner and there was more oven spring.  Those pictures were taken in my heated, humidified pizza holding cabinet. I think I also posted other pictures on this thread of pizzas in the heated, humidified holding cabinet that also affect the color in the pictures, but didnít look though this thread to find them.  I had posted in Reply 623 that I know by each picture that is taken there can be a wide difference in how a pizza looks at the end of my post.  Then at my post at Reply 625 I posted that although the pizzas did look better, I really couldnít notice that much difference in the taste of the pizzas.  After you had posted of why my poolish might have made a difference in the color of the crust and oven spring, then I had wished I had taken more pictures at market on Tuesday.

Sorry if I confused you on my posts.  I will wait and see what happens on Friday and this coming week.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on October 01, 2010, 05:59:17 AM
I used a small twice frozen dough ball of this preferment Lehmann dough to make a 8" pizza for the monthly challenge at:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11749.msg112327.html#msg112327

The technique I used to bake this pizza was only under the broiler, on a regular piece of aluminum foil.  This technique was easy because I only needed to rotate the pie with a spatula and a tong. After the top of the pizza was brown, then I just turned the pie over and broiled the other side for a shorter amount of time. This was a quick bake. I was surprised that the middle of the pizza didnít balloon up because there were no toppings on this pizza.  I added the toppings after the bake, because this was a dessert pizza.  The toppings for this pizza were Nutella and toasted cinnamon raisin cubed bread. This pizza had a two inch rim.  The dessert pizza was tasty.  No need to use two pieces of aluminum foil for this experiment.  I used the same piece of aluminum foil to toast the cinnamon raisin cubed bread, while the oven was heating up, before I turned the broiler on.  Even got some of those elusive cat spots.  I had a slice of this dessert pizza this morning and it is still moist inside the rim.  Even no need for a pizza stone for this type of pizza.

In this test of oven broiler with aluminum foil and frozen twice dough ball, I was able to see that a dough ball can be frozen twice and still have oven spring and an oven broil only for a dessert pizza both work out okay.

Pictures below,

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on October 01, 2010, 06:02:10 AM
end of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on October 01, 2010, 04:31:05 PM
When I went to market today to mix the poolish, there was another problem.  It had rained about 6" in our area in the last two days.  My vent must have been leaking or either water must have been pouring in from somewhere near the vent.  Some of my floor tiles were starting to come up from the water that was laying on the floor.  Now it is call a roofing man and also fix the tiles.  I did get everything cleaned up and made the poolish.  I only took one picture of the finished poolish, but found out my deli case that I had clean out when it froze up on a hot summer day, was higher than I had thought.  I checked the two thermometers and the one that was on the top shelf was higher than I thought.  It was 38 degrees F.  I turned the deli case down lower.  The Hatco unit was at the right temperature.  Hopefully the poolish will be okay on Monday.  I had also made another poolish, but only took a picture of the one.

Pictures of poolish, vent outside, vent inside, and floor tiles that came up.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: StrayBullet on October 01, 2010, 06:58:31 PM
Damn, that sux Norma, but at least the damage doesn't appear to be too bad...I'm currently dealing with sinkhole issues so I know what you're feeling!
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on October 01, 2010, 10:33:54 PM
Damn, that sux Norma, but at least the damage doesn't appear to be too bad...I'm currently dealing with sinkhole issues so I know what you're feeling!

StrayBullet,

Yea, you never know what is going to happen.  Now I will have to crawl on top of the pizza oven to be able to paint the ceiling after the roof is fixed and get some kind of stuff to paste those darn tiles down. There are a bunch of loose tiles. Probably one sticky mess.   :-D

Sorry to hear you have to deal with sinkholes.  Hope you get your sinkholes fixed.

Norma


Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: StrayBullet on October 02, 2010, 12:29:41 PM
Thanks Norma, much appreciated!!!  At least the insurance company is cooperating nicely :)
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Jackie Tran on October 02, 2010, 03:19:47 PM
Norma - I haven't been following your thread but the 2 latest pies you posted from the Market place look really good.  The desert pie has the leoparding on it as well.   :-D

Where those 2 pies (pepperoni & cheese) make with preferment or starter?

Chau
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on October 02, 2010, 03:41:20 PM
Norma - I haven't been following your thread but the 2 latest pies you posted from the Market place look really good.  The desert pie has the leoparding on it as well.   :-D

Where those 2 pies (pepperoni & cheese) make with preferment or starter?

Chau


Chau,

The two pies with the pepperoni and cheese were the same dough I have been using with the preferment.  I was having problems with the poolish and it getting runny or watery on the bottom of the poolish.  This in turn made my pies darker in color and seemed to give a better oven spring.  You can read what Peter thinks happened with the poolish at Reply 626 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg112151.html#msg112151 and Reply 628 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg112163.html#msg112163

I would like to keep my pies looking this way, but might have a dough that I might not be able to used on a Tuesday.

As for the dessert pie, that was baked only under the broiler in my home oven on a piece of thin aluminum foil.  That was just an experiment to see if a skin could be baked that way.  The skin did get some leoparding from just baking under the broiler.  ;D  The dessert pizza had one of the highest rims that I have ever achieved and that dough had been frozen and thawed two times.  ::)

Thanks for saying they looked good.  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on October 04, 2010, 05:20:59 PM
To follow on my other posts about the poolish at market, the poolish was the same way today, with a liquid layer on the bottom of the containers.  The first picture is before I pulled any poolish out of the one container.  The next few are how the liquid looks on the bottom of the container.

I also took the pH of the poolish and also the pH of the final dough, just for the heck of it.  The pH of the poolish was 5.40 and the final dough pH was 5.94.  The final doughs did look good, even if the poolish was liquid on the bottom of the container.  I also stretched this one final dough to see if I could read print though it.  As can be seen on the last picture, you can read though this dough.

Pictures below

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on October 04, 2010, 05:22:14 PM
Pictures of pH of final dough and dough stretched.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on October 05, 2010, 10:00:08 PM
These are the pictures of some of the pizzas that were made today with the poolish that was somewhat watery yesterday.  They did get more browning on the rim and oven spring in the crust, but not as much as last week.  I am not sure if this is because the poolish was somewhat watery or not, but the dough handled well today.

Pictures below

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on October 05, 2010, 10:01:22 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on October 05, 2010, 10:02:16 PM
end of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 05, 2010, 10:12:32 PM
Norma,

It doesn't sound like you were as nervous this week as last week. Were you able to identify any possible causes for the release of water by the poolish?

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on October 05, 2010, 11:07:30 PM
Norma,

It doesn't sound like you were as nervous this week as last week. Were you able to identify any possible causes for the release of water by the poolish?

Peter

Peter,

No, I wasnít as nervous as last week.  I havenít been able to identify why this poolish is getting watery on the bottom.  My Hatco unit seems to be operating okay and now my deli case temperature is down to 34 degrees F.  I am enjoying seeing more oven spring and more browning in the crust.  I just hope that some week my dough doesnít fail me.  It just makes me wonder why I never had this trouble with my poolish before.  I will watch in the next few weeks to see what happens.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on October 11, 2010, 04:57:39 PM
The poolish today was back to normal.  I was trying to think why the poolish was so different in the past few weeks, but I swear it must be the flour, after thinking about it.  ::)  I usually get flour in 50 lb. bags and while I was using the last three 50 lb. bags of flour the poolish developed a watery layer on the bottom.  I had gone to purchase 3 new bags of flour last week and started using one bag last Friday to make the poolish.  The poolish today is the same as it always was before.  I donít know what difference there are in bags of flour, but there must have been something different in those 3 bags of flour.  ???  At least that is my opinion.  :-D I had checked my Hatco Unit and my deli case and even after I lowered the temperature in the deli case the poolish still was watery.

Pictures below of the poolish today and picture of the mozzarella cheese before it was grated.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on October 12, 2010, 10:27:43 PM
The pies are about back to normal since the poolish wasnít watery this week.  The only difference I noticed today was there seems to be bigger bubbles in the rim that turned dark on some of the pies, something like the past few weeks.  At least using the poolish that was watery and the poolish that was normal doesnít seem to affect these pies too much.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 12, 2010, 10:33:24 PM
Norma,

That's good news on the poolish. You might keep up with measuring the pH values for at least a while to see if any anomalies develop.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on October 12, 2010, 10:49:31 PM
Norma,

That's good news on the poolish. You might keep up with measuring the pH values for at least a while to see if any anomalies develop.

Peter

Peter,

I also am glad there doesnít seem to be much difference in using either poolish.  What pH levels should I measure?  Should I measure the pH values of the poolish before incorporating into the final dough and the pH values of the dough before the bake of some of the pizzas I bake in a days course?

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 12, 2010, 11:14:42 PM
What pH levels should I measure?  Should I measure the pH values of the poolish before incorporating into the final dough and the pH values of the dough before the bake of some of the pizzas I bake in a days course?

Norma,

It's up to you how many pH measurements you want to take. However, if the poolish is under suspicion, I think for the time being I would take the following pH readings:

1. the pH of the poolish before it goes into the cooler,

2. the pH of the poolish at the time it comes out of the cooler to be incorporated into the final dough, and

3. a pH reading for at least one final dough just before being used to make a pizza.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on October 13, 2010, 08:43:49 AM
Norma,

It's up to you how many pH measurements you want to take. However, if the poolish is under suspicion, I think for the time being I would take the following pH readings:

1. the pH of the poolish before it goes into the cooler,

2. the pH of the poolish at the time it comes out of the cooler to be incorporated into the final dough, and

3. a pH reading for at least one final dough just before being used to make a pizza.

Peter

Peter,

I will take all three readings of the pH values so I might understand if pH values do change in a poolish and how that might affect dough.  I will try to take pH reading of dough balls in the morning before a bake and also later on in the day to see if this might help to understand if pH values do affect dough though out the day or if a watery poolish does change how a dough behaves. I will start a worksheet for pH values on Friday for the poolish when it is made, the poolish before it is incorporated into the final dough and the final dough balls before baking for the preferment Lehmann dough. 

I didnít post this last evening, because I didnít take pictures of the dough balls though out yesterday, but the dough didnít ferment like it did when it had the watery poolish.  The dough balls remained almost the same though out the day, while sitting in the cooler waiting to be put out at ambient room temperatures at market. I could see that the dough balls did ferment some during the day, but not nearly as much as when the poolish was watery. Even while the dough balls sat out on the counter they didnít expand nearly as much as when the poolish was watery.  The ambient temperature at market yesterday was around 82 degrees F with the oven on.

I donít know at this time if pH readings will help in understanding dough more, but would be curious if I can learn something from pH values in the poolish and dough balls.  How dough changes with each variable still is somewhat of a mystery to me.  I can see with my eyes how the dough changes, but still really donít understand all that goes into why the dough changes. 

I had 3 dough balls leftover from yesterday, that I just quickly threw in the freezer last evening after market.  This is a picture of the one dough ball that is frozen this morning.  It can be seen on this dough ball that sat in the cooler all yesterday, that it didnít ferment nearly as much as when I posted how the watery poolish frozen dough ball looked with the picture the at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg112252.html#msg112252
The dough balls stayed a lot flatter yesterday.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 13, 2010, 10:25:50 AM
I didnít post this last evening, because I didnít take pictures of the dough balls though out yesterday, but the dough didnít ferment like it did when it had the watery poolish.  The dough balls remained almost the same though out the day, while sitting in the cooler waiting to be put out at ambient room temperatures at market. I could see that the dough balls did ferment some during the day, but not nearly as much as when the poolish was watery. Even while the dough balls sat out on the counter they didnít expand nearly as much as when the poolish was watery.  The ambient temperature at market yesterday was around 82 degrees F with the oven on.

Norma,

In the above quoted section, are you talking about dough balls that were "thawed out" or did I misread what you wrote?

Out of curiosity, I went back earlier in this thread to see when you started to use the Lehmann preferment dough at market. I believe it was some time in February of this year. What I was curious about is what ambient temperature changes you may have encountered at that time, and since then. From what I can tell, it looks like you went through almost an entire seasonal cycle of cold and warm/hot temperatures. My recollection is that you have been using your Hatco unit to maintain a relatively constant temperature for your poolish preferments but that your dough balls are tempered at room temperature. Do your recall whether you needed longer temper times when it was last cold when you made your pizzas?

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on October 13, 2010, 11:16:46 AM
Norma,

In the above quoted section, are you talking about dough balls that were "thawed out" or did I misread what you wrote?

Out of curiosity, I went back earlier in this thread to see when you started to use the Lehmann preferment dough at market. I believe it was some time in February of this year. What I was curious about is what ambient temperature changes you may have encountered at that time, and since then. From what I can tell, it looks like you went through almost an entire seasonal cycle of cold and warm/hot temperatures. My recollection is that you have been using your Hatco unit to maintain a relatively constant temperature for your poolish preferments but that your dough balls are tempered at room temperature. Do your recall whether you needed longer temper times when it was last cold when you made your pizzas?

Peter

Peter,

The dough ball I posted a picture of this morning was not thawed out.  It was a dough ball from yesterday that I froze last evening.  It looks a little messy, but I just threw it into the freezer last evening after market.  I know I will use the dough ball next week to make cheesy breadsticks or garlic knots, so I wasnít too careful in putting it into the freezer. 

The other dough ball that I had a link to with the cinnamon raisin bread was from the watery poolish that had fermented so much more even while it was kept in the pizza prep fridge all day and then brought home to be frozen.  That dough ball wasnít thawed out either.  I just posted a picture to show how much the dough had fermented. 

This whole thread gives me great memories of trying this dough and finally being successful with the preferment Lehmann dough. This dough has served me well in so many ways.  I remember asking you how you figured this all out and you replied at Reply 177 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg89258.html#msg89258

I am glad you helped me with this formula.  Thanks so much. You are right that I started really using this formula in February of this year. 

You are also correct that I went though many different ambient temperatures while using this dough.  The ambient temperature were about from 44 degrees F to 99 degrees F. I did use the Hatco Unit for making all this poolish. I canít recall ever having problems with the poolish before, even in these different ambient temperatures, but did have to watch the dough balls when they were sitting on the bench in the hotter weather.  The dough balls couldnít have as long of a bench time when the weather was hotter.  When the weather was cooler the bench time for these dough balls were at least about 1 Ĺ hrs.  I need to watch these doughs balls all year long, but what I have found out in the course of using this preferment Lehmann dough is that if I need to use a dough ball right out of the pizza prep fridge when I am busy, the dough doesnít bubble in the middle of the pizza.  It just seems to give more oven spring.  I canít figure that out yet, but will keep on watching. 

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 13, 2010, 12:12:03 PM
I need to watch these doughs balls all year long, but what I have found out in the course of using this preferment Lehmann dough is that if I need to use a dough ball right out of the pizza prep fridge when I am busy, the dough doesnít bubble in the middle of the pizza.  It just seems to give more oven spring.  I canít figure that out yet, but will keep on watching. 

Norma,

I think that November answered part of your question on bubbling and why there is more expansion with a cold dough. He discussed this matter at Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11878.msg110928/topicseen.html#msg110928. I know that you have experienced bubbling in the center of some pizzas but that does not appear to be the case with your Lehmann preferment dough.

When I was scanning back throught the thread, I was surprised at how much ground was covered in trying to come up with a preferment Lehmann dough formulation that you could use to bake pizzas on only one day of the week. One can almost get an entire education on poolish preferments, including many of the challenges, by just reading the thread from start to finish, including many of the linked items. I wouldn't be surprised to discover that you are perhaps the only pizza maker in the country who is making preferment-based pizzas one day a week. It would be much simpler just to make basic straight Lehmann pizzas. You have perhaps spoiled your customers by giving them such a high quality product.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on October 13, 2010, 01:00:49 PM
Norma,

I think that November answered part of your question on bubbling and why there is more expansion with a cold dough. He discussed this matter at Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11878.msg110928/topicseen.html#msg110928. I know that you have experienced bubbling in the center of some pizzas but that does not appear to be the case with your Lehmann preferment dough.

When I was scanning back throught the thread, I was surprised at how much ground was covered in trying to come up with a preferment Lehmann dough formulation that you could use to bake pizzas on only one day of the week. One can almost get an entire education on poolish preferments, including many of the challenges, by just reading the thread from start to finish, including many of the linked items. I wouldn't be surprised to discover that you are perhaps the only pizza maker in the country who is making preferment-based pizzas one day a week. It would be much simpler just to make basic straight Lehmann pizzas. You have perhaps spoiled your customers by giving them such a high quality product.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for referencing the link from November.  I did have problems with the one dough made with a starter (Ischia) bubbling in the middle, but think at that time that dough was just underfermented.  I have seen when using the preferment Lehmann dough right out of the pizza prep fridge I can get better oven spring when using this dough really cold.  I made a one pizza that way yesterday and know the ambient temperature of the pizza prep fridge is about 33-34 degrees F.  I wish I would have taken a picture of that pizza.  At two places the oven spring in the crust was 2 inches.  Steve and I measured it with a measuring tape.  When I use the dough right out the pizza prep fridge, I have to open the dough in two stages, or it will be harder to open.  I just dust it with flour, press the skin and open in two stages.  I know this isnít the optimal way to open a dough, but I donít seem to have many problems with doing it this way.  I know the pizza dough is colder going into the oven and that probably is why there seems to be more oven spring as November explained. 

I also believe this thread does have a lot of information about using a preferment such as a poolish.  This thread has really helped me to learn more about preferments and how dough behaves with a poolish.

I donít think I spoil my customers.  I just want them to be able to have the best crust I can make.
Thanks for helping me in this thread and others.  I do get compliments every week on the preferment Lehmann dough pizza, so that is a direct compliment to you also.  Customers say they really like the crust and I do have customers that buy the dough to bake at home. 

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 13, 2010, 01:47:32 PM
Norma,

I think we were fortunate that once we got past early attempts to use a stiff, biga-like preferment, even with Tom Lehmann's assistance, progress using the poolish approach came quite quickly and with good results. But credit also goes to old criter, who posted on his Reinhart ciabatta dough modification. Had I not seen the old criter dough recipe and had I not become intrigued about its possible application to your basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation, who knows how long we would have been dribbling around in the backcourt trying to come up with something that would have worked for your application? I think that paying attention to the teachings of Didier Rosada and Prof. Calvel also helped and kept us from veering off course to our detriment. We are all interconnected in what we know and do, so, to be fair, credit has to be interconnected too. I'm just happy that you are contributing to the gross domestic product (GDP) with your efforts at market.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on October 13, 2010, 07:32:35 PM
Norma,

I think we were fortunate that once we got past early attempts to use a stiff, biga-like preferment, even with Tom Lehmann's assistance, progress using the poolish approach came quite quickly and with good results. But credit also goes to old criter, who posted on his Reinhart ciabatta dough modification. Had I not seen the old criter dough recipe and had I not become intrigued about its possible application to your basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation, who knows how long we would have been dribbling around in the backcourt trying to come up with something that would have worked for your application? I think that paying attention to the teachings of Didier Rosada and Prof. Calvel also helped and kept us from veering off course to our detriment. We are all interconnected in what we know and do, so, to be fair, credit has to be interconnected too. I'm just happy that you are contributing to the gross domestic product (GDP) with your efforts at market.

Peter

I also believe we were fortunate to get past the stiff, biga like preferment. This thread is very long and I could see someone getting bored at reading all that is posted on this thread and all the links. The first doughs sure didnít work well.  I also would like to thank old criter for posting on his Reinhart ciabatta dough modification.  I knew you had gotten the idea from that post on how to try and proceed with this dough.  I have seen in past experiments how long it can take in finally succeeding for a workable dough.  I believe the teachings of Didier Rosada and Professor Raymond Calvel also helped us in this thread.  I have been reading different articles from both of these men and can understand how much their teachings have to do with the pizza world, although I have a lot more to learn.

I am glad to be able to contribute to the Gross Domestic Product although I am a really small business and really donít make that much money, but I really do like making pizza, so I really have the best of both worlds.  I enjoy my job making pizza and experimenting. Although my pizza business is a very small business it does contribute some to the U.S. economy by me also buying products to make the pizzas. 

My hat is off to everyone that helped with this dough.   :chef: :chef: :chef: :chef:

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Essen1 on October 13, 2010, 07:46:37 PM
Norma,

Hats off to you. Outstanding work!  ;)

And the pies look phenomenal. Congrats.
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on October 13, 2010, 07:55:14 PM
Norma,

Hats off to you. Outstanding work!  ;)

And the pies look phenomenal. Congrats.

Mike,

Thanks for the hats off to me and the congrats.  :) I wouldn't have been able to understand how to make this dough or achieve the pizzas I have been able to make without the help of all the people I mentioned in my other posts.  This forum is amazing in all the information that is here for people to learn and also from all the members that help everyone.  I didn't forgot about trying your formula in my oven.  I just didn't have time to try it out as of right now.  Maybe soon I will be able to try your formula out in the deck oven. I do have your formula printed out.  Your pizzas and breads look amazing also.  ;D

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Essen1 on October 13, 2010, 08:26:20 PM
Norma,

Pretty cool that you have the formula printed out.

I am actually curious to see how my dough formula holds up in a commercial oven but no rush. Whenever you feel you have the time.

Thanks for the compliments... ;D

Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on October 14, 2010, 10:26:04 PM
This pizza was made for this months challenge of ďcandyĒ.  I used a small dough ball of leftover dough that was frozen since Tuesday night.  The frozen dough ball was time defrosted in 2 Ĺ minutes.  It was then left on the table for about 15 minutes before I opened the skin.  I wanted to make a different kind of pizza for this challenge because it is fall and I also wanted to use candy.  While I was at market Tuesday I picked up some papaya, toffee coated pecans, dried cherries and some candy.  I had thought about buying some dried cranberries too, but decided that would be too much for this small pizza.  I was wondering about what kind of cheese to use for this pie, and decided to use mild white cheddar cheese that was frozen.  This pie was one of the fastest pies I have made from start to finish.  I let the oven heat up for about an hour and placed the pie on the baking stone on the top rack position of my oven.  I also decided to sprinkle cinnamon on this pie after it was baked, because I recently read in our local newspaper that cinnamon is the ďspice of lifeĒ and really good for many things.  I guess they are just studying cinnamon more these days, but donít have any definite answers at this time about the health benefits.  I really like cinnamon though, so I thought I would add it to this pie. 

The pizza bake went well, even for the low temperature of my home oven.  The pie reminded me of fall and could be used for fall or Halloween.  Even the taste of the combined toppings worked out well in my opinion.  The candy corn and pumpkins were placed on the pie after the bake.

I did turn on the broiler for about 1 minute after the rim rose, then turned the oven back to bake.  This pie only took 4 Ĺ minutes to bake.  The one part of the rim developed a tall dark spot, so I just cut that dark spot off with a scissors.  It can be seen in the one picture I am posting how I cut off the dark spot.  This crumb was very good, moist and the bottom crust was crunchy.  The combination of the toffee coated nuts with the dried fruit really added to this pizza.  I would have thought this pizza would have been too sweet, but the cheese, cinnamon and other toppings didnít make this pie sweet.  There was just a blend of good flavors in my opinion.  This pie did get decent oven spring.

Pictures below 

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on October 18, 2010, 05:36:41 PM
Both containers of poolish were okay today.  I have started taking the pH numbers for the poolish and Friday and Monday.  I will also take the pH of some of the doughs tomorrow before they are made into a pizza. 

It still makes me wonder if it wasnít the flour that made the poolish watery before.  Since I have started using the new bags of flour, there hasnít been any problems with the poolish being watery.

Few pictures of one poolish today.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on October 19, 2010, 10:07:59 PM
These are three pies baked today.  I did take the pH numbers of two of the pies before baking.  I will post a worksheet of the poolish pH numbers and also the pH of the dough before the bake tomorrow.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on October 20, 2010, 08:35:27 AM
This is the worksheet for the poolish and two doughs, before the final bake, with pictures posted in my last post.  Two different batches were made for these two dough balls that had the pH numbers taken. 

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on October 27, 2010, 09:40:34 AM
This was supposed to be a pizza made with the preferment Lehmann dough.  Steve and I forgot about this pizza, when it was in the oven.  After I thought I smelling something burning, I remembered that there was a pizza in the oven.

We both thought that the colors of this pizza looked like Halloween.  The pizza was hard as a rock and we decided to cut a pumpkin face on this pizza.  I used scissors to quickly cut out eyes, a nose and a smiling mouth.  Different customers and people that were walking by my market stand had to laugh about this pizza.  They also thought it looked like a pumpkin face.  At least we all got a laugh about this preferment Lehmann dough pizza pumpkin face.

I never saw a pizza this burnt before.   :-[  At least a Halloween mask is another use for this preferment Lehmann dough.   :-D

Pictures below

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Mick.Chicago on October 27, 2010, 09:53:49 AM
Amazing, I love the...ever so subtle char....  >:D
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on October 27, 2010, 10:15:27 AM
Amazing, I love the...ever so subtle char....  >:D

Mick.Chicago.

I am glad you like the ever so subtle char.. >:D  The interesting thing to me about this overly done pizza was the bubbles on the crust stand out so more more.   ;D

Thanks,

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on November 03, 2010, 08:11:28 AM
I usually make cheesy breadsticks by opening a regular dough ball into a rectangular shape and then place it on parchment paper on a baking pan, then bake the pie half way in the oven.  Finally slide the breadsticks off the parchment paper and bake on the deck.  I decided to try these breadsticks in a different way yesterday.  I used a bigger dough ball, opened the dough, placed the toppings on and slide the pie (breadsticks) into the oven.  What I found out from this experiment was there was a big rise in the crumb of these breadsticks.  This dough was left out for over 1 Ĺ hrs. to warm-up.  I then cut this pie (breadsticks) into strips.

Pictures include a tape measure to show how high this rim was. Almost 2" in some places.

I also wanted to note, no more problems with the poolish and it being watery on the bottom.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on December 01, 2010, 09:24:26 AM
These are some pictures I took of a Sicilian pizza made yesterday, with the same Preferment Lehmann I use for my NY style pizzas. This dough was frozen from last week. I find it interesting how this same dough behaves differently when put into a deep-dish pan and then baked on a screen.

This is also a video I took at Rootís Market in the morning yesterday of what part of one aisle looks like, if anyone is interested in looking at it.  This video also shows my former Caramel Popcorn, Cotton Candy and Clear Toy Candy stand.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-bgk_44gGk

In this one aisle, it shows all the raw milk, raw milk cheeses, organic foods, cheese spreads, vegetables, meats, nuts, fruits, eggs, big candy stand, freshly made pickle stand, big sub stand, potato chip and pretzel stand, cheeses, bakeries, bagels, Chef Tims products, fresh pasta stand and other stands. Some of these stands were closed yesterday, due to their owners hunting. It can be seen on this video how many Mennonite and Amish people operate stands at Rootís Market.  This is just one small part of Rootís inside. In time I will take videos of the rest of Rootís Market, and post them here on this thread.  Sorry I didnít take this video slower, but it takes too long to upload on You Tube.  Many out of town customers come to Rootís market.  A lot of them that visit for the first time remark on how a market this big can only be open one day a week.  That is the way it has been since 1925.  Being open only one day a week does have its advantages, because then people know that is the only day to come and purchase all the fresh products.  Vegetable, fruits, nuts and other product prices are cheaper at Rootís Market, than our local supermarkets.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on December 08, 2010, 12:40:19 PM
These are just two pictures of pizza I made yesterday at market, one Sicilian in a deep-dish pan and one regular cheese pizza, both from the Preferment Lehmann dough.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on December 08, 2010, 01:19:33 PM
Norma,

Do my eyes deceive me or do those pizzas look to have more top crust coloration than the Lehmann counterparts using natural leavening systems?

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on December 08, 2010, 01:55:05 PM
Norma,

Do my eyes deceive me or do those pizzas look to have more top crust coloration than the Lehmann counterparts using natural leavening systems?

Peter

Peter,

Your eyes don't deceive you.  These two pizzas even were from frozen doughs.  These two pizzas were baked at about 566 degrees F.  The Sicilian pizza was baked in a deep-dish pan on a screen in my top oven and the regular NY style was baked on the stone, in the bottom oven.  I still can't figure out why even this dough seems to brown better fresh or frozen.  Some day I might need to do a test with Kyrol flour with a natural leavening system, to see if it is my oven, flour, or lack of residual sugar that is giving me problems in browning. When I was trying the clone Mack's dough, there wasn't any problems with browning of the crust, in my deck oven.  When I first starting making pizzas with the regular Lehmann dough, with Pillsbury Balancer, All Trumps, and Kyrol, I didn't have any browning issues.  I even had my oven at different temperatures when using bromated flours.

I have some bromated flour at home.  Do you think for my next test with a natural leavening system I should use the bromated flour to see what happens?

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on December 08, 2010, 03:30:41 PM
I have some bromated flour at home.  Do you think for my next test with a natural leavening system I should use the bromated flour to see what happens?

Norma,

Those are some interesting comparisons.

Using a naturally leavened dough with another high-gluten flour such as the Kyrol might make sense but mainly to see if it is your KASL that is impeding the crust coloration in a natural leaven application. To the best of my knowledge, the bromated part shouldn't have any effect on the crust color. Of course, you have no choice on that. It goes with the Kyrol if that is the flour you decide to use.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on December 08, 2010, 06:10:29 PM
Peter,

A few weeks ago when I went to order flour from my supplier C.O. Nolt and Sons, Inc. and they were out of KASL.  That isnít normal, but I guess they sold more than they thought they would. I had asked them what comparable flour they had that wasnít bromated, but they didnít have any they could substitute for me, until they would get some more KASL the next week.  The All Trumps 50 lb. bag was 19.99 and the Kyrol flour was even higher.   I wasnít sure if I had enough flour, until the following week, so I stopped in at the Restaurant Store to see what they carried.  They had 104-GIGANTIC in 50 lb. bags. http://www.therestaurantstore.com/High-Gluten-Flour-50-lb-/104GIGANTIC.html  I asked who makes the Gigantic flour and the employee told me Pillsbury.  I donít know if that is true or not, but I purchased one bag for 12.99, the sale price.  I didnít need the flour and it is now sitting in my van.  I was going to take it back, but might do some experiments with it.  The employee told me many pizza shops in my area purchase the Gigantic flour and it is bromated.

I might make one Preferment Lehmann dough ball and also a couple of dough balls that I have been trying with the natural leavening systems.  I really donít have any problems with trying out bromated flour to see what would happen.  I can then either bag up the leftover flour and try to sell it or give some away.  Did you ever hear of Gigantic flour?  Do you think if I do these experiments that it might tell me quicker what my problems are, with browning issues?  I did use a lower bake temperature (455 degrees F) for my milk kefir Lehmann dough yesterday and that didnít seem to resolve the issue of browning all together.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on December 08, 2010, 09:26:51 PM
Did you ever hear of Gigantic flour?  Do you think if I do these experiments that it might tell me quicker what my problems are, with browning issues?  I did use a lower bake temperature (455 degrees F) for my milk kefir Lehmann dough yesterday and that didnít seem to resolve the issue of browning all together.

Norma,

I have heard of the Gigantic flour but I believe it is an ADM product, as noted at http://www.adm.com/en-US/Milling/Flour/USWheat/Pages/Gigantic.aspx.

I would be surprised if the KASL flour you have been using was the cause of the reduced top crust browning. The problem has been most pronounced when using a natural leavening system. When you have used the commercially-leavened Lehmann poolish preferment with your KASL flour, you have not had the problem, at least not to the same degree. You could try another high-gluten flour to see if it alleviates the problem, but I have my doubts about that happening. From the experiments you have conducted and reported on to date at the other threads, the coloration problem seems to be isolated to the doughs using natural leavening systems. If that is correct, and the problem is not really oven related, you are left with the usual measures such as using sugar or honey or some other additive. Beyond that, it seems to me that the fermentation method and protocol may need to be altered.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on December 08, 2010, 10:21:06 PM
Peter,

Thanks for finding the Gigantic flour and who it is manufactured by. 

I donít really know if the KASL flour does cause a some browning issue, but have wondered about that for awhile, since switching from bromated flour.  This is where I switched to KASL flour http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9551.msg82833.html#msg82833 My crust and pizzas look a lot different now, but there was also browning issues back then. If I go back to my earliest posts on the forum, even when using bromated flours, my crusts looked anemic then, too, but I donít think I knew much about anything back then. I think now my oven temperatures were too low or I was taking the pies out too quick. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8341.msg76790.html#msg76790  What a difference a little over a year makes.  :-D

Your are right about the browning issues being more pronounced when using a natural leavening system.  I will think over the fermentation protocol for my natural leavening doughs. I have no idea where to go from here with them, but will post on my other threads if I can think of anything to try. I think I might give the naturally leavened doughs a break for a couple of weeks.

Thanks for your help,

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on December 15, 2010, 07:24:40 AM
Picture of one pie from market yesterday and my great-granddaughter at market yesterday with her chef's hat on and holding Elmo.  My great-granddaughter now is almost one year old and really likes Pizza Singing Elmo.  What a difference a year makes.  A year ago, I wasn't making this preferment Lehmann dough and didn't even have a great-granddaughter that was born.  Maybe someday she will be my pizza making buddy.  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: fazzari on December 15, 2010, 01:54:02 PM
Norma
I think the Sicilian pizza looked amazing....it reminded me of the pizzas my mom would make at home...she would simply make a bread dough, spread it in a cookie sheet type pan and top with tomato sauce flavored with anchovy and garlic.  Didn't even use cheese...but you got my mouth watering!!

John
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on December 15, 2010, 02:51:04 PM
Norma
I think the Sicilian pizza looked amazing....it reminded me of the pizzas my mom would make at home...she would simply make a bread dough, spread it in a cookie sheet type pan and top with tomato sauce flavored with anchovy and garlic.  Didn't even use cheese...but you got my mouth watering!!

John

John,

Thanks for saying the Sicilian pizza looks amazing.  Your mom's Sicilian sounds great, too!  :)  It is amazing how many things can be made out of pizza dough.

Norma

Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on December 16, 2010, 05:45:01 PM
I tried a little experiment with a few doughs balls that I had leftover from market Tuesday.  Usually I freeze them at the end of the day in my freezer.  This time I decided to see what would happen to them if I left a few in my van for a couple of days before freezing.  It is very cold outside, but the dough balls didnít freeze while in the van.  I took them out of the van today and now they are placed in the freezer.  I did take the dough balls along on errands today and yesterday.  The van was warm then.  I will bake these dough balls into pizzas Tuesday.

Yes, that is snow in the picture.  We are starting to get snow again! lol

Pictures below

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: jever4321 on December 16, 2010, 09:16:15 PM
Thanks for the pictures Norma. Your Great-Grand daughter is adorable, and you pizza pictures always inspire me. Keep it up.
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on December 16, 2010, 10:21:15 PM
Thanks for the pictures Norma. Your Great-Grand daughter is adorable, and you pizza pictures always inspire me. Keep it up.

jever4321,

Glad you like the pictures and thanks for saying my great-granddaughter is adorable.  The preferment Lehmann dough is very easy to work with and I can make many things in addition to pizza with it.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: steelsieve on December 19, 2010, 01:50:28 PM
Norma, your pizzas look amazing.  Your persistence is truly inspiring.  Just think, someday your great granddaughter might even make her own pizzas using the recipes and wisdom you'll share with her.  My grandmother and great aunt made legendary Sicilian pies but they never measured a thing and never wrote anything down, unfortunately for me.  Still, any time I make pizza I think of them, and that lasts forever.   :)
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Tscarborough on December 19, 2010, 02:04:05 PM
That is a beautiful pie.  Just the right amount of everything.
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on December 19, 2010, 06:47:09 PM
Norma, your pizzas look amazing.  Your persistence is truly inspiring.  Just think, someday your great granddaughter might even make her own pizzas using the recipes and wisdom you'll share with her.  My grandmother and great aunt made legendary Sicilian pies but they never measured a thing and never wrote anything down, unfortunately for me.  Still, any time I make pizza I think of them, and that lasts forever.   :)

steelsieve,

Thanks for saying my pizzas look amazing.  :)  I hope someday my great-granddaughter will want to help make pizzas. 

Sorry to hear your grandmother and great aunt never wrote anything done about the Sicilian pies they made.  It is nice when you make pizza you think of them.  They would be proud of you.  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on December 19, 2010, 06:48:42 PM
That is a beautiful pie.  Just the right amount of everything.

Tscarborough,

Thanks for your kind words.  You pizzas are really looking great, too!  ;D

Norma

Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on December 22, 2010, 07:36:35 PM
In my post at Reply 684 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg120578.html#msg120578 I was trying an experiment with a few dough balls.

These are the results from that experiment I did with three leftover dough balls from last week. I have included some of the pizzas I made yesterday, from morning to evening, in with the experimental dough balls, that were turned into pizzas.  I wonder if anyone can spot the pizzas made from the experimental dough balls.  ::)

Even my regular pizzas when using the preferment Lehmann dough can look quite different, when using the dough though out the day at market.  I still think every pizza has a unique fingerprint.

Pictures below

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on December 22, 2010, 07:39:39 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on December 22, 2010, 07:41:31 PM
Even one pizza Steve and I burnt while talking to others and talking about making pizza.  We aren't perfect either, in our pizza making skills.   :-D

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 05, 2011, 08:16:29 AM
scott123 started a thread about Undercrust Bubbles at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12674.msg122261.html#msg122261

I sure canít explain how undercrust bubbles form, but when making different pizza at market yesterday did get some of these undercrust bubbles.  I didnít take pictures of all the pies with undercrust bubbles, but most of the pies yesterday had some.  Some of these pictures arenít the best, because I needed to move the pepperoni that slid, while putting the pizza in the oven, but I took the pictures before I moved the pepperoni.  These doughs balls for these pizzas were warmed-up, so I have no idea why some of these bubbles formed.  I guess it will remain a mystery why different things happen to the same dough that is used week after week.  The doughs for these pizzas opened up the same and didnít feel any different than other dough balls and all of these pies were baked in the same temperature oven.  Some of these pies were baked in the morning and some later in the day.

Pictures below

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pizza01 on January 05, 2011, 04:09:10 PM
great looking pie norma, you know how to do great things and wonderfull pies.
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 05, 2011, 04:22:37 PM
great looking pie norma, you know how to do great things and wonderfull pies.

Michael,

Thanks for your kind words.  :)  I have been working with the same formula for almost a year.  I still have have mysteries about this dough, even though I make it the same every week. 

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: briterian on January 10, 2011, 05:42:14 PM
Hi Norma,
Are you able to post your final recipe you are using.  This forum has gotten so big now. Maybe we should post it on the 'Pizza Recipe' Section of the site now that it's so popular!   I was curious if you are still adding diastatic malt added to your dough.

Thanks,
Brian
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 10, 2011, 07:35:46 PM
Hi Norma,
Are you able to post your final recipe you are using.  This forum has gotten so big now. Maybe we should post it on the 'Pizza Recipe' Section of the site now that it's so popular!   I was curious if you are still adding diastatic malt added to your dough.

Thanks,
Brian


Brian,

I am still using my same formula that Peter set-forth at Reply 225.  If you want to see the formula for one dough ball it is. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg90226.html#msg90226

If you want to see the formula for 5 dough balls, the formula is at Reply 149 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg88687.html#msg88687

The only thing I changed in the last about 7 weeks, is I am adding more water to my final dough for bigger batches than 5 dough balls. I have found I like a dough with a higher hydration. I have also increased the Thickness Factor, because I now like a pizza that is thicker than the original formula.  When I scale each dough ball, now they weigh, 1.195 lbs. 

Since this formula was figured out with paper and pencil by Peter, it canít be scaled up or down in the amount of dough balls to be used or the dough calculation tools canít be used to adjust the thickness factor or dough balls.  I am not even sure what hydration I am using now, but the 61% hydration does also work well, in the original formula set-forth above.

I am not using any diastatic malt to this formula.  If you have any more questions, just ask.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: briterian on January 11, 2011, 08:25:13 AM
Thanks Norma,
Do you know what the malt powder was trying to achieve?
I am looking to get back into this recipe.   I am looking to reduce the puffiness a bit and go with more of a traditional NYC style that has a smaller cornicone and was wondering if you thought this should be achieved by just removing the 2nd stage yeast altogether or just reducing it a bit.  I also have a lot of King Arthur italian flour (their version of a 00) and I am looking to use this receipe with that type of flour knowing I will need to adjust the water amounts to balance it's lower protein levels.
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 11, 2011, 09:00:30 AM
Thanks Norma,
Do you know what the malt powder was trying to achieve?
I am looking to get back into this recipe.   I am looking to reduce the puffiness a bit and go with more of a traditional NYC style that has a smaller cornicone and was wondering if you thought this should be achieved by just removing the 2nd stage yeast altogether or just reducing it a bit.  I also have a lot of King Arthur italian flour (their version of a 00) and I am looking to use this receipe with that type of flour knowing I will need to adjust the water amounts to balance it's lower protein levels.


Brian,

I was trying malt powder to see if the addition of malt powder could help the crust coloration as also can be seen that I tired added malt powder on the thread I am now working on making a milk kefir dough with a poolish. 

This is what Peter posted about the addition of malt powder, on the thread I am working on now at Reply 144 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12173.msg117493.html#msg117493

At Reply 146 is where I added the malt powder, with limited results in better crust coloration.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12173.msg117612.html#msg117612

I have also tried honey in the other thread I am working on now, also with limited results.  I am now trying bakerís grade dairy whey to see if that will help crust coloration issues.  At some point I might also try dairy whey in one dough ball for the preferment Lehmann dough, if I get good results in the experiment I am trying now.

Do you mean by removing the 2nd state yeast to not use a poolish or not putting as much poolish in the formula?

I really donít know how your King Arthur Italian flour will work in this formula or a version of this formula.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: briterian on January 11, 2011, 05:12:04 PM
I was mentioning that there is yeast in the poolish and then when you add the poolish to the rest of the ingredients more yeast is pitched.  I was curious if one could avoid the 2nd stage yeast or just reduce it a bit and see if that might reduce the puffiness. What do you think?
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 11, 2011, 05:44:17 PM
I was mentioning that there is yeast in the poolish and then when you add the poolish to the rest of the ingredients more yeast is pitched.  I was curious if one could avoid the 2nd stage yeast or just reduce it a bit and see if that might reduce the puffiness. What do you think?

Brian,

Thanks for clarifying what you meant.  I really donít think the IDY can be avoided in the final mix, but could be lessened if you want the final dough to ferment more slowly over more days than I do.  That would be a really long dough to make.  The IDY addition to the final dough is in the amount so the dough will be ready to used after a cold ferment of one day.  I think if I would handle this dough more rough, and not be careful of opening the dough, the rim wouldn't be as puffy.  I am not sure though, because I never tried really punching down on the rim, before adding the dressings.

The IDY is almost used up in the poolish after 3 days of cold fermentation.  I have never seen this poolish fall, (like a classic poolish does) but I could believe it would after more days of cold fermenting.  I couldnít go to market today, because my water heater at home broke, so I do still have my poolish I made last Friday in my deli case. I only left it there to do a test on the poolish, if I still can.  I am going to go to market either tomorrow or Thursday (depending on the snow we now are getting in our area), and either take a small amount out to try in one dough ball or possibly try a larger batch in 5 dough balls, if the poolish still is bubbling.  I have never tried to let the poolish for this final dough go more than 3 days, but would think the IDY would be almost all used up in that time frame. 

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on January 11, 2011, 06:16:01 PM
One thing that should be kept in mind that the King Arthur Italian-style flour is an unbleached, unbromated, unmalted. low-protein (8.5%) red winter wheat flour (http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/items/king-arthur-italian-style-flour-3-lb). The addition of diastatic malt might help extract more sugar from the starch to help with crust coloration and to feed the yeast. However, the formula hydration may need lowering in order for it to work in the preferment Lehmann dough formulation that Norma has been using. That might require re-doing all of the baker's percents if the same final dough weight is to be retained. It might also be necessary to add some sugar to the formulation and maybe increase the amount of oil. Brushing the unbaked rim might also help.

I have no idea as to how the KA clone 00 flour will perform in the Lehmann preferment dough formulation, even if diastatic malt is added. The only way to know if it will work, and to what degree, is to make a dough and pizza out of it.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 12, 2011, 04:37:34 PM
Peter,

I went to market to see if the poolish was still good to use for two doughs. (one with added dairy whey and without).  I took two pictures at market of the poolish and one since I have returned home.  I am going to make the 2 doughs and then freeze them after cold fermenting one day to try at market this coming Tuesday.

What I wanted to ask you is, do you have any other ideas for experiments to do with the extra poolish I will have left over. Right now I canít think of anything to do with the poolish.

Pictures of the poolish that still looks good to me.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: briterian on January 12, 2011, 05:03:18 PM
Thank Peter.   Wanna give a starter recipe and I'll report back?   I'd like to only use malt powder and no surgar as stage one.
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on January 12, 2011, 06:51:27 PM
Wanna give a starter recipe and I'll report back?   I'd like to only use malt powder and no sugar as stage one.

Brian,

The preferment Lehmann dough formulations I devised for Norma came out of a lot of trial and error and a lot of math and manipulation of numbers using pencil and paper. So, I am not certain what a "starter" recipe might look like that uses the King Arthur Italian-Style flour. Can you give me an outline of what you would like to achieve, including the ingredients that you would like to use, the fermentation protocol you want to use (e.g., room temperature, in the refrigerator, a combination, etc.), the window of usability of the dough (i.e., when you want to use the dough to make a pizza), and the size of pizza you want to make? I assume that you will want to use a poolish preferment, as does Norma. I don't know if I will be able to devise a dough formulation based on your criteria but I won't know until I see what the criteria are.

An alternative to the above would be to come up with a basic dough recipe based on the KA Italian-style flour and diastatic malt and leave to you to use the Rosada articles referenced earlier in this thread to adapt the dough recipe to a preferment version.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 12, 2011, 09:22:01 PM
I did four, really five experiments with the poolish from market.  The first experiment I used dairy whey in the preferment Lehmann dough.  The second experiment I used non-fat dry milk powder in the preferment Lehmann dough.  The third and fourth experiments I did with the poolish were high hydration doughs, that I am letting room temperature ferment.  The last experiment I did, which would be the fifth, was I just added salt to some poolish and left it sit for awhile and then dumped the poolish into a deep-dish pan that was oiled.  That experiment didnít go to well, because although the dough did rise, while in the oven, I either think I had the dough too thick or either I pulled it out of the oven too soon.  The middle of the poolish pizza didnít get baked enough.  I donít think anyone would be interested in seeing the poolish pizza, because the crumb looks too gummy.  :-D  One failure and 4 more to go.

These are the pictures of how the poolish looked when I pulled some out of the container and the 2 two balls one with added dairy whey and one with added non-fat dry milk powder.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: briterian on January 13, 2011, 07:40:41 AM
Hi Pete,
I was just going to follow your recipe and up the % flour in the preferment and also in the 2nd stage and add some malt powder so that the final hydration is around 58-59%.  I also was thinking of adding some semolina flour at the 2nd stage.  THis is the kind of malt powder I bought...I hope that is the right kind.

http://www.grocersfind.com/cooking-baking-supplies/sugars/10229-now-foods-barley-malt-mix-powder-24-ounce-bags.html
Sorry I can't more specifically answer your questions about temp. etc.  I hope the final dough temp is around 75-80 degrees and I will let it rest uncovered in the fridge for about 90 minutes before sealing it up.
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 13, 2011, 09:01:32 AM
I forgot to mention in my last post that I took the pH reading of the large amount of poolish when I returned home from market.  The pH was 5.52.  I also took the final dough pH of the added dairy whey dough and the non-fat dried milk powder dough.  The pH of the dairy whey dough ball was 6.01 and the pH of the non-fat dried powdered milk dough was 5.97.  I donít know why the final dough were different in pH numbers. 

The big part of the poolish I had used last night to make a poolish pizza, I had fed 1 gram of yeast (after I made the failed poolish pizza) to let it sit out at ambient room temperatures over night to see what would happen.  That part of the preferment Lehmann dough poolish could be formed into a dough ball last evening, after sitting for over 2 hours. This morning it has grown again and is more bubbly than before.  Now the pH of the preferment Lehmann dough poolish is 5.47.  I wonder if any members of this forum have keep a regular poolish going at room temperature without adding any extra flour and then have been able to make a successful pizza. I would think at some point the yeast would run out of nutrients from the flour. The pH numbers havenít changed too much since I brought it home from market.  I donít know if I am going to try to make another poolish pizza with the extra dough or not, but this dough reminds me of different high hydration bread doughs I have tried before.  I thought I would include the pictures of the failed poolish pizza, so if anyone had tired this before they could compare what happened with my failed pizza with theirs.  The failed poolish pizza did rise as can be seen, but then fell when I removed it from the oven.  It also can be seen how the crumb is gummy looking.

Other picture is poolish this morning with the added 1 gram of IDY.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on January 13, 2011, 09:41:11 AM
THis is the kind of malt powder I bought...I hope that is the right kind.

http://www.grocersfind.com/cooking-baking-supplies/sugars/10229-now-foods-barley-malt-mix-powder-24-ounce-bags.html

Brian,

From the description of the barley malt powder, it appears that it may be the non-diastatic form, not the diastatic form. Non-diastatic malt is a sugar substitute. You might want to call the supplier or do further research to determine for sure which form of the malt you have.

On the matter of preferment, is there a reason why you want to use more flour in it? That would push the preferment from a poolish to something like a sponge or biga. When Norma used a biga, she did not get the desired results with the preferment Lehmann formulation.

With respect to the semolina, is there a particular percent you want to use, measured with respect to the total flour blend?

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: briterian on January 13, 2011, 03:17:56 PM
Hi Pete,
I'd be fine keeping the poolish ingredients exactly the same. I was just trying to compensate for the lower protein level. I guess I can make that compensation during stage 2.  Why don't I do this.   Take your recipe for 1 dough (maybe double it for 2 pies) and add about 1-2 tsp of malt powder and not change anything else and document it carefully and see how it turns out and report back here. 
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on January 13, 2011, 07:22:44 PM
Brian,

That's fine. However, unless your malt is diastatic, it will act as a sweetener, without enzymatic activity to convert damaged starch to sugars. Also, since the KA Italian-style flour contains only 8.5% protein, you may want to reduce the total formula hydration, perhaps to something around 57% if you also use semolina. The more semolina you use, the higher the formula hydration should be. To the extent you make changes, you may want to note them for future purposes.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: briterian on January 13, 2011, 09:29:57 PM
Ok.  I'll assume it's not diastatic and probably throw it away.   The site is not clear and is it safe to assume that no one ever uses diastatic as a sweetner?  I'll just stick with barley syrup or honey.

Thanks!

Description:
Barley Malt is a natural sweetener derived from an extract of sprouted barley. As a sugar substitute, Barley Malt is a natural whole food. We blend 1% maltodextrin (from corn) to limit clumping and allow for free flowing. Maltodextrin is a pure carbohydrate that is a synergistic and complementary sweetener. NOW provides a full line of unique sweeteners including Beet Sugar, Date Sugar, Dextrose, Fructose, Lactose, Maple Syrup, Sorbitol, Turbinado and Xylitol Sugars. NOW also produces full lines of vitamins, herbs, pure cosmetics, whole grains, and flours.
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on January 13, 2011, 10:03:53 PM
Brian,

I found the website for the NOW malt that you purchased, at http://www.nowfoods.com/Products/M004076.htm. I found the description that you provided but I also saw the following:

Suggested Use:NOW Barley Malt Sweetener can be used to substitute for up to half the sugar content in baked recipes.  It is also tasty and useful in hot cocoa or carob and malted milk shakes.

The above Suggested Use tells me that you have the non-diastatic form of malt. You wouldn't use diastatic malt for the above suggested uses. Diastatic malt in enzyme-based and works to release sugar from damaged starch molecules in the flour. The end result is an increase in sugar but it, itself, is not a sugar. You can read more about the two forms of malt in the forum's Pizza Glossary at http://www.pizzamaking.com/pizza_glossary.html#D and at http://www.pizzamaking.com/pizza_glossary.html#N. You can see an example of a diastatic malt product at http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/items/diastatic-malt-powder-16-oz.

I wouldn't throw away the NOW malt product. It is just a dry form of the liquid non-diastatic malt and can be also be used as a sugar substitute, although you may have to do some experimenting with it to find its best uses. You can also use the NOW product to make bagels. See, for example, Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11832.msg113617.html#msg113617 and also later posts in the same thread.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 14, 2011, 09:24:40 AM
I took the pH of both dough balls last evening before I froze them.  The pH of the dairy whey powder dough ball was 6.22 and the pH of the non-fat dried milk powder dough ball was 6.21.  I donít see how the pH numbers could have become less acidic.  I never saw that before after letting a dough ball cold ferment.  Usually a dough ball becomes more acidic when cold fermenting.

I also wanted to note that the dough ball with the added non-fat dried milk powder seems to have increased in volume more than the dairy whey dough ball.  I donít know why that is either.  I should have done the ďpoppy seedĒ trick to see if my eyes were deceiving me, but I didnít.

Pictures of both dough balls before I took pH of both of them and then froze them until Tuesday.

First two pictures are of dairy whey powder added to dough ball, top and bottom.
Second two pictures are of non-fat dried milk powder added to dough ball, top and bottom.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 14, 2011, 08:40:41 PM
Since I didnít like to see all the poolish go to waste from my preferment Lehmann dough I had decided to do a few experiments on the poolish in different doughs.  The first experiment with the poolish pizza was a failure, so I thought what harm could it do to mix different doughs and see what would happen.  I mixed all three of these doughs Wednesday evening.  I let all three doughs room temperature ferment for about 14 hrs. and then cold fermented them until this evening.  The first pizza made tonight was the lightest in texture.

The first pizza I just put in any ingredients in with the poolish that I thought might work.  I did write down what ingredients I had used.  The second pizza was another poolish pizza that really had a high amount of poolish in the mixture. It was so sticky I didnít think I could load it into the oven, because it kept sticking to the peel. When I loaded it into the oven, the pizza almost slid off of the steel pan and then stuck to the steel pan. The third pizza was the same formula I had tried out on my Sicilian thread, but I used the preferment Lehmann dough poolish in the formula instead of milk kefir.  These were all high hydrations doughs I tried with the poolish.

I didn't dress these pies with anything special, because I sure didn't know how they would turn out.  They all were dressed with fresh rosemary, thyme, sage, sea salt, oregano, and cherry tomatoes.

If anyone is interested, these are the pictures of the experiments I did with the leftover poolish.  The first picture is of the remainder of the poolish that almost died until this morning.  I had left it on my kitchen table to see how long it would take to almost completely fall.  The other pictures are in progression of the explanations I gave above.  At least the preferment Lehmann dough poolish did work okay in these pizzas.  I also decided to bake all three of these pizzas on the upside down steel pan, since I did have good results with using an upside down steel pan last evening at Reply 15 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12662.msg123240.html#msg123240

At least I learned some things from these experiments.

Pictures below

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 14, 2011, 08:44:01 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 14, 2011, 08:46:42 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 14, 2011, 08:48:43 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 14, 2011, 08:50:59 PM
end of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 15, 2011, 09:44:20 AM
Some things I learn from these recent experiments with the poolish from the Lehmann dough were.

1.  A dough can be made with varying amounts of ingredients added to a poolish and still make a successful pizza. I didnít use the dough tools for this pizza. For the lightest pizza I made and the first one in the pictures I had posted in my last post, I used a regular amount of poolish (for one preferment Lehmann dough ball), added IDY, salt, dairy whey, oil and Farine Ganoro flour. This dough was a high hydration dough and needed many stretch and folds while it was room temperature fermenting and cold fermenting to make it into a useable dough ball. 

2.  The poolish pizza, was 792 grams of poolish and had added 150 grams flour, salt, dairy whey, and oil.  That pizza dough was the most sticky dough I have ever worked with.  It was almost like a blob.  I also did many stretch and folds on that dough, but it didnít come together like the other doughs. It kept wanting to turn more or less liquid and was really hard not for it to stick to the wooden peel.  I did use bench flour to be able to form the dough, but it also wanted to keep sticking to the table.  I didnít think that amount of poolish would have been able to make a pizza, but it did.

3. The third pizza, I used Ceresota flour, which is a lower strength flour, to see if I could develop enough gluten to have some rise in the pizza.  By mixing for longer periods of time and doing more stretch and folds that pizza also did have some rise in the pizza and did finally form more gluten after cold fermentation. This pizza had much different results than when I used different flour I had used in the same formula before.

4. The preferment Lehmann dough poolish can be used after 5 days of cold fermentation to add to dough of pizzas.

These are some of the things I learned from these experiments.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 21, 2011, 08:22:43 AM
The January 2011 Monthly Challenge is ďNew to YouĒ.  I used a small preferment Lehmann frozen dough ball to make a taco pizza that was baked on an upside down steel pan for this challenge. This is the link at Reply 15 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12662.msg123240.html#msg123240

On Slice, posted by Maggie Hoffman this weekís My Pie Monday was ďEverything But The Kitchen SinkĒ

The challenge taco and steel upside down pan pizza was included in with the other ďEverything But The Kitchen SinkĒ pizzas. http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2011/01/my-pie-monday-what-to-do-with-leftovers-homemade-pizza-20110117-slideshow.html#show-133650
Pictures below

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 21, 2011, 08:32:18 AM
pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 21, 2011, 08:55:40 AM
pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 22, 2011, 02:49:07 PM
The preferment Lehmann dough was made with Better for Bread Flour yesterday. I baked the pizza today. I also decided to use the Better for Bread flour since Brian posted about using winter wheat flour at  Reply 49 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11994.msg123800.html#msg123800  I mixed the amount of poolish for one dough ball which was referenced at Reply 225 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg90226.html#msg90226  The only things different that I did was, I used a smaller amount of IDY in the poolish and a lower amount of IDY in the final dough and also added more water (121 grams) and a little more salt (6grams) to the final dough.  I did use a autolyse in the dough of 25 miniutes, before I added the salt and then oil.  I stretched and folded the dough ball two times after the final dough mix. The dough ball was left out at room temperature for 2 hrs. before cold fermenting overnight.  The dough ball was removed from the refrigerator this morning and stretch and folded 3 more times and left to room temperature ferment for 6 hrs.  The dough ball did get many bubbles in the dough ball.  The final dough temperature was 77.3 degrees F.  The pH of the final dough was 5.97.  The pH of the dough ball right before the bake was 5.83.  The dough was very soft and easy to open.

The pizza was baked on my pizza stone at around 500 degrees F.  The pizza was dressed with my regular pizza sauce, two kinds of mozzarella blended and pepperoni.

Although this pizza didnít have the airy crust I usually get, the taste of the crust was more tender and did taste much better than using KASL, in my opinion.  The crust is also more crunchy than when using KASL.  Even at my lower bake temperature in my home oven, this pizza did turn out much better. 

Thanks Brian (sfspanky) for telling me about trying Better for Bread flour in a poolish dough.  :)

Pictures below

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 22, 2011, 02:52:36 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 22, 2011, 02:55:07 PM
end of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on January 22, 2011, 03:42:17 PM
Norma,

Do you plan to try the Better for Bread flour in lieu of the KASL for your preferment Lehmann dough at market? I counted about a dozen changes to your regular preferment Lehmann dough and management for your home test using the Better for Bread flour. It seems to me that it is possible that those changes could have contributed to the final taste independently, or possibly in concert with, the flour itself. Using the Better for Bread flour instead of the KASL and using your regular methods at market would seem to be a better test to determine the impact of the Better for Bread flour.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 22, 2011, 05:53:14 PM
Norma,

Do you plan to try the Better for Bread flour in lieu of the KASL for your preferment Lehmann dough at market? I counted about a dozen changes to your regular preferment Lehmann dough and management for your home test using the Better for Bread flour. It seems to me that it is possible that those changes could have contributed to the final taste independently, or possibly in concert with, the flour itself. Using the Better for Bread flour instead of the KASL and using your regular methods at market would seem to be a better test to determine the impact of the Better for Bread flour.

Peter

Peter,

I do plan on trying the Better for Bread flour in a test dough for market.  I would have waited until Monday to make a test dough, but it might snow again in our area Tuesday and I already have two test doughs frozen and didnít even make a milk keifr dough with the added dairy whey because I am not sure if I will be going to market.  I was going to try and make the poolish Monday and incorporate it into the final dough the same day using the methods like the Hatco Unit.  I wanted to see if a Better for Bread dough can be made one day and cold fermented for one day to use at market Tuesday. 

Do you really think the changes I did make to the preferment Lehmann dough really contributed that much to my final taste and look of the crust?  I do add more water to my preferment Lehmann dough at market, but donít do a autolyse.  I also only made the poolish yesterday morning for the Better for Bread dough and let the poolish rise in my home oven with a light on, before I made the final dough.  I didnít think the small amount of extra salt I added would have changed the dough too much.  I know one variable can change a dough, but I thought these small changes wouldnít have contributed that much.  I also would have thought that the poolish I usually make for the Lehmann dough would also strengthen the dough more because it is cold fermented for more days than I did for the Better for Bread dough. 

What I didnít understand about the Better for Bread dough was although the dough ball and opened skin did have many bubbles, the baked pizza didnít have the rise in the rim the way my preferment Lehmann dough does at home or market.  That still has me puzzled.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on January 22, 2011, 06:42:55 PM
Norma,

As you know, I am a stickler on the technical aspects of pizza dough making and do not ordinarily subscribe to making multiple changes at one time, even if I think that the changes are mutually independent or mutually exclusive. Apparently Brian is of the same school, as he recently noted in Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12782.msg123498/topicseen.html#msg123498 where he said: Change one thing at a time. Every action has a reaction.

I perhaps could take each change you made and independently trace its effects back to the final results. But, apart from the time that it would take to do that properly, there are combinations of effects that I perhaps cannot even divine, much less be able to explain them. In your case, another way to do a proper comparison with your preferment Lehmann dough with the KASL in your home oven environment is to repeat your latest experiment but use the KASL instead of the Better for Bread flour. That would be the only change (with maybe a small hydration change).

With respect to the reduced rim size you experienced with the Better for Bread flour, one possibility is that your KASL, with its higher protein content, develops more gluten and, as a result, better captures and retains the gases of fermentation, leading to increased oven spring. However, with all the changes you made, it is possible that those changes were also contributors to the reduced rim size.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 22, 2011, 07:38:36 PM
Norma,

As you know, I am a stickler on the technical aspects of pizza dough making and do not ordinarily subscribe to making multiple changes at one time, even if I think that the changes are mutually independent or mutually exclusive. Apparently Brian is of the same school, as he recently noted in Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12782.msg123498/topicseen.html#msg123498 where he said: Change one thing at a time. Every action has a reaction.

I perhaps could take each change you made and independently trace its effects back to the final results. But, apart from the time that it would take to do that properly, there are combinations of effects that I perhaps cannot even divine, much less be able to explain them. In your case, another way to do a proper comparison with your preferment Lehmann dough with the KASL in your home oven environment is to repeat your latest experiment but use the KASL instead of the Better for Bread flour. That would be the only change (with maybe a small hydration change).

With respect to the reduced rim size you experienced with the Better for Bread flour, one possibility is that your KASL, with its higher protein content, develops more gluten and, as a result, better captures and retains the gases of fermentation, leading to increased oven spring. However, with all the changes you made, it is possible that those changes were also contributors to the reduced rim size.

Peter

Peter,

I do know you are a stickler on the technical aspects of dough making.  I also believe Brian is the same as you.  I can understand every action has a reaction.

I also think it might be a good test to make a KASL preferment Lehmann dough with the same methods and ingredients I used for the Better for Bread flour and see what the results would be.  I might do that test if I donít go to market this week or maybe next week. 

I am still not sure why the KASL dough and the Better for Bread dough didnít have the same rise.  The dough and skin had many fermentation bubbles.  More than any of my preferment Lehmann doughs.  I would have thought that the stretch and folds that I did would have further developed the gluten.  I have seen that happen before in other high hydration doughs I have made.  I never made one preferment Lehmann dough ball at home though, so maybe even my mixer at market could have made the difference. 

Thanks for going over what might have produced different results.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 25, 2011, 09:00:56 PM
The preferment Lehmann dough ball with the added dairy whey was baked today into a pizza. The pizza did brown better with the dairy whey added.  The crumb was even moister with dairy whey added.  This dough ball did open easily.

Pictures below

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 25, 2011, 09:03:35 PM
rest of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 25, 2011, 09:41:56 PM
There was one dough ball that was left out too long near the end of today.  It had been a frozen dough ball from two weeks ago and when I went to open the dough ball it wanted to tear.  I was just ready to throw the dough ball away, and had just pushed it into a ball.  I almost threw it in the trash can.  I then decided to experiment with it.  I just formed it into a dough ball.  From reballing it was very tight. The dough ball was made into bread right away.  Steve and I decided to bake it into bread.  Steve cut the slits and we just placed it into the top oven.  After we saw it rising we decided to take a cold dough ball out of the deli case and just slit it and also placed it into the oven.  Steve and I were surprised to see the dough ball that was tight, did rise better and also created a better loaf of bread.  The pictures with the tighter crumb in the slices are the dough ball we removed from the deli case.  Now the preferment Lehmann dough can be made into bread, too!  ;D  I still donít understand what happened with this.  This almost useless dough ball did create a decent bread.  Since my deck oven is low, we almost had problems removing the dough ball from the oven.

Pictures below

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 25, 2011, 09:44:52 PM
rest of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on January 25, 2011, 09:53:00 PM
The preferment Lehmann dough ball with the added dairy whey was baked today into a pizza. The pizza did brown better with the dairy whey added.  The crumb was even moister with dairy whey added.  This dough ball did open easily.

Norma,

The pizzas look good, and have more browning than some of your recent efforts using the preferment Lehmann dough. Would you say that the improvement in crust color is sufficient enough to warrant inclusion in your preferment Lehmann dough at market, assuming that a larger dough batch exhibits the same results?

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: plainslicer on January 25, 2011, 10:05:11 PM
Norma, these look so great and delicious! The browning/color is perfect.
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 25, 2011, 10:20:12 PM
Norma,

The pizzas look good, and have more browning than some of your recent efforts using the preferment Lehmann dough. Would you say that the improvement in crust color is sufficient enough to warrant inclusion in your preferment Lehmann dough at market, assuming that a larger dough batch exhibits the same results?

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for saying the pizza looked good.  This pizza did have much better browning than my other preferment Lehmann doughs without the added dairy whey.  The taste of the crumb was even better.  I donít know what caused that.  The crumb was moister than the other pies I baked today. Do you have any idea why the crumb was moister?  I think after a few more tests to see if the crumb and browning stays the same, I would like to include the dairy whey in all my preferment Lehmann doughs.  I might do 5 test doughs for this coming week.  Steve even said he liked this pie better, with the added dairy whey.

I also did two other tests with the preferment Lehmann dough.  The one was with the added non-fat milk powder and the other one was with Better for Bread flour.  Those results werenít as good as the added dairy whey.  I will post those pictures tomorrow.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 25, 2011, 10:22:35 PM
Norma, these look so great and delicious! The browning/color is perfect.

plainslicer,

Thanks for your kind words!  :)  Adding dairy whey did help this crust brown better. I will know more after I do a few more tests.

Norma

Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 26, 2011, 08:17:01 AM
This pizza was the one had added non-fat dried milk powder in the amount of 4% to the formula.  This pizza didnít brown as much as when adding dairy whey to the formula.  The moistness and oven spring were about the same as my regular preferment Lehmann dough pizzas.

First picture is of a regular preferment Lehmann dough pizza with nothing added to the mix.  That pizza was made  yesterday morning.  Rest of pictures are of the added non-fat dried milk powder.

Pictures below

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 26, 2011, 08:18:36 AM
Rest of pictures of pizza made with non-fat dried milk powder.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 26, 2011, 08:23:09 AM
This was the preferment Lehmann dough pizza, with the Better for Bread flour used instead of KASL.  This pizza did brown better and had more crisp in the crust.  The crumb wasnít as moist as when using the dairy whey. The moistness in the crust was almost like my regular preferment Lehmann dough pizzas and this pizza did get better oven spring, than the last pizza I made at home. Although Steve and I did enjoy this pizza, the added dairy whey pizza, was better in both of our opinions.  I will have to do a few more tests on the Better for Bread flour in the preferment Lehmann dough.  These last three pizzas were thinner than my normal preferment Lehmann dough pizzas, because I now use a higher TF.  I used the formula for the last three pizzas using one dough ball that was set forth in this thread.

I wouldnít have been able to make any of the pizzas or bread, if today was yesterday.  Instead of being on the pizza making detail, there would have been a shoveling detail.  When I awoke this morning this is what it looked like outside.  There is a winter storm warning, in our area until 1:00 pm tomorrow.  Looks like I will be on the shoveling detail today and tomorrow.  :-D

Pictures below

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 26, 2011, 08:26:51 AM
Rest of pictures using Better for Bread flour in the formula.  What I wouldn't do for nicer weather and higher temperatures.   :-D

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on January 26, 2011, 09:42:34 AM
This pizza did have much better browning than my other preferment Lehmann doughs without the added dairy whey.  The taste of the crumb was even better.  I donít know what caused that.  The crumb was moister than the other pies I baked today. Do you have any idea why the crumb was moister? 

Norma,

We have been paying the most attention recently to the browning issue because that was the issue that was yelling at us the loudest. However, in addition to helping with crust coloration, dairy whey also affects the texture/structure and flavor of the baked goods in which it is used, and apparently has attributes like hygroscopicity (it attracts water from its surroundings) that helps retain moisture in the dough (and helps retard staling). I observed many of these other effects when I did my dairy whey experiments some time ago but I wasn't sure how pronounced they would be in a dough such as yours using a poolish preferment. However, I found a good, comprehensive discussion of the effects of dairy whey in baked goods in an aarticle at http://www.usdec.org/files/Publications/1BAKERY.pdf. If you read that article, even casually without trying to understand all of the science, I think you will have a much better idea as to the role that dairy whey plays in baked goods.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 26, 2011, 11:11:42 AM
Norma,

We have been paying the most attention recently to the browning issue because that was the issue that was yelling at us the loudest. However, in addition to helping with crust coloration, dairy whey also affects the texture/structure and flavor of the baked goods in which it is used, and apparently has attributes like hygroscopicity (it attracts water from its surroundings) that helps retain moisture in the dough (and helps retard staling). I observed many of these other effects when I did my dairy whey experiments some time ago but I wasn't sure how pronounced they would be in a dough such as yours using a poolish preferment. However, I found a good, comprehensive discussion of the effects of dairy whey in baked goods in an aarticle at http://www.usdec.org/files/Publications/1BAKERY.pdf. If you read that article, even casually without trying to understand all of the science, I think you will have a much better idea as to the role that dairy whey plays in baked goods.

Peter

Peter,

I also agree that crust coloration has been yelling at us the loudest. I was always blaming my oven at market, how it baked the pizza. Thanks for referencing the above mentioned pdf.  I never knew all the things dairy whey added to dough.  From the time I first started making the formula you set-forth for the preferment Lehmann dough I did really like the dough, but always wanted more crust coloration.  I think the next few experiments will tell if the added dairy whey is the best way for me to make the preferment Lehmann dough.  Sometimes it  can take awhile to learn all what can go into making a better dough.  I appreciate you have helped in the course of the last year in trying to improve my dough.  I never wanted to use any bromated flour, so all your ideas have really helped, in creating a better dough, with no added conditioners of any kind.  I can also see now how much pizza and bread are related.  From the first time you set-forth the formula, basically using a Ciabatta bread formula and changing it into a pizza dough formula, this is what helped make this dough and pizza better, in my opinion.  When I tried the messed up dough ball in an experiment yesterday to see how the dough would behave in bread, this also made me see how related pizza is to bread.  Although I didnít take any extra steps in trying to use the messed up dough ball into bread.  It still worked.

I also want to thank you for contacting Cheryl, so I could try the dairy whey for better crust coloration.  I didnít know before how dairy whey would give a better moisture in the crumb.  Now if the next few tests do work out, I will have to contact Cheryl again and also see how I can purchase dairy whey from Hormel or where else I might be able to purchase the dairy whey.  I guess I did add WPC34.  I am not to sure what kind I added, but from my conversation with Cheryl, I would think it was that kind of dairy whey.

The one part taken out of the pdf. article that interests me is this part:

WPC34 produced the softest bread because it contained the least amount of calcium. The amount of calcium plays a role in the rate of firming of bread. The mechanism behind this points to the
fact that lower calcium WPCs aggregate at higher temperatures in the baking process, when there is more gelatinized starch, allowing the whey protein chains to extend
between the starch chains and decrease retrogradation. Increasing the lactose content in the dough can also produce bread that retains its softness for a longer period of time. This softness has been attributed to better emulsification of the fat in the formula. Lactose crystals in baked
goods also have unique water holding capacity. Optimal mixing times were increased with the use of all WPCs. When 2, 4 and 6% addition of WPC was tested, the
4% level of WPC34 yielded the highest loaf volumes. Controlled heat treatment of
WPC34 to achieve partial denaturation of the whey proteins has also been shown
to improve bread moistness and texture. 

Also this part of the pdf. article:


In baking, lactose is often used to replace sucrose for a variety of functional benefits. Compared to other sugars, lactose results in low relative sweetness, increased browning, enhanced emulsification action, moisture retention, non-hygroscopicity and enhanced flavors. When replacing sucrose (up to 50%), lactose can contribute to improved crumb texture and freshness, increased volume, reduced fat levels, improved gas retention, and enhanced flavor.

I think your choice of adding 4% of dairy whey to the formula was a good one.

Thanks for your help.  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on January 26, 2011, 01:52:13 PM
Norma,

It's been quite a ride, hasn't it ?  ;D I also couldn't help but notice that this thread, with 745 posts spread over 38 pages, is closing in on the basic Lehmann thread with 908 posts spread over 46 pages. However, it took us about 13 months from the start of this thread whereas the Lehmann thread got its start on 9/27/2004. Of course, you have made all kinds of things with the Lehmann dough other than pizzas, so those efforts have claimed their share of this thread's real estate. But, for what you have accomplished, I am sure that Milton Hershey is smiling down on you saying: "Atta girl, Norma. You didn't give up". No doubt he is also saying: "But, Norma, shouldn't you heed Jet_deck's advice that he gave in the thread at....(hmm, sorry, we don't use URLs up here) and spread your wings to bigger and better things? And, hasn't anyone told you that Harland Sanders, the "Colonel", started the Kentucky Fried Chicken chain on his Social Security checks?"

The above kidding aside, what has made the biggest impact on me since I have participated with you on this thread is how much an improvement and advantage a commercial deck oven is over a standard home oven. I also am surprised how we were able to tailor the preferment version of the basic Lehmann dough recipe to be usable at market only one day a week and with everything being done on the premises of the market, pursuant to the market rules, and not at home. Hopefully, you will be able to integrate the dried dairy whey into your market pizza.

Peter

Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 26, 2011, 06:53:55 PM
Norma,

It's been quite a ride, hasn't it ?  ;D I also couldn't help but notice that this thread, with 745 posts spread over 38 pages, is closing in on the basic Lehmann thread with 908 posts spread over 46 pages. However, it took us about 13 months from the start of this thread whereas the Lehmann thread got its start on 9/27/2004. Of course, you have made all kinds of things with the Lehmann dough other than pizzas, so those efforts have claimed their share of this thread's real estate. But, for what you have accomplished, I am sure that Milton Hershey is smiling down on you saying: "Atta girl, Norma. You didn't give up". No doubt he is also saying: "But, Norma, shouldn't you heed Jet_deck's advice that he gave in the thread at....(hmm, sorry, we don't use URLs up here) and spread your wings to bigger and better things? And, hasn't anyone told you that Harland Sanders, the "Colonel", started the Kentucky Fried Chicken chain on his Social Security checks?"

The above kidding aside, what has made the biggest impact on me since I have participated with you on this thread is how much an improvement and advantage a commercial deck oven is over a standard home oven. I also am surprised how we were able to tailor the preferment version of the basic Lehmann dough recipe to be usable at market only one day a week and with everything being done on the premises of the market, pursuant to the market rules, and not at home. Hopefully, you will be able to integrate the dried dairy whey into your market pizza.

Peter



Peter,

It has been a great ride!  ;D I learned a lot in this thread.  I am always looking for the ďbeginning of a new adventureĒ, when it comes to pizza making.  I will always stay with the old until you or other members help me along the way in learning more. 

I knew this thread had a lot of posts, but didnít realize how many years the basic Lehman thread took to evolve.  It really didnít take that long to learn how to make the preferment Lehmann dough or even come up with new ideas for other foods using the dough of the preferment Lehmann dough.  I am not to quick to give up on doing anything I do in life and learning about pizza is also the same.  Milton Hershey went though many hardships in his life before he was successful.  I can only wish I had his great attitude.  As far as following Jet_deck's advice and spreading my wings and going on to bigger and better things, I am content with my small pizza business.  I really donít need a lot of things in my life to make me happy and money is one of those things I donít really need to make me happy.  I didnít know before that Harland Sanders, the "Colonel", started the Kentucky Fried Chicken chain on his Social Security checks.  That was interesting to know.  If I was younger and know what I have learned on this forum, I might have ďspread my wingsĒ and opened a bigger pizza business.  Steve and I were just talking about that yesterday.  We both said we would like to be able to operate a pizza business together, since we have learned so much on this forum, but then we both also said it would take the fun out learning with being so busy each day just trying to operate a pizza business.  With the economy being so iffy right now, so many small businesses fail. 

I can also see the advantages my commercial deck oven has over my home oven.  Unless someone can devise some way of changing a regular home oven (that canít get to high temperatures) it is harder to make a NY style pizza in a home oven without modifications.  I have seen that when even comparing my BBQ grill set-up with my home oven.  My deck oven isnít the newest, but it does bake any pizza much differently.  There is just more mass (on the deck) and the oven has holes to spread the heat over the top of the pizzas.  When I was trying to decide what kind of oven to buy for market, (before I even knew one thing about making pizza)  :-D after looking at many, I decided to go with an old-fashioned deck oven, because there were in use many years for NY style pizzas.  I am glad I decided to use a deck oven at market.  I even have two pizza businesses that want to buy my small market stand.  I sure donít know why they are so interested, because I have told them both I really donít make that much money from my market stand.  I told both of the pizza businesses about how much money I had invested to open my pizza stand business and they both said they would give me cash money for the stand.  I still can't figure that out why someone that has a successful pizza business would want to buy my small pizza stand.  If I can ever figure out how to successfully incorporate other kinds of pizzas at my pizza stand, I also will do that.

I was glad after the experimenting that I could make the preferment Lehmann dough at market, even if it is only one day a week.  Hopefully after the next few tests, I will be able to incorporate the dairy whey into the preferment Lehmann dough formula. 

Thanks for helping me on this ride.  :)
Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on January 26, 2011, 07:36:01 PM
Norma,

When Steve, the owner and Administrator of this forum, asked for someone to volunteer to try to adapt the commercial Lehmann NY style dough formulation to home use, I thought that that would be an interesting assignment, so I volunteered. I had tried the Lehmann formulation before but my experience with it was fairly limited. So, that thread became a major learning experience for me. At the time, my modus operandi, which I adhere to even to this day, was to post when I had a workable recipe, with as much detail as I could muster to increase the chances of others reproducing what I had done. It took years to be able to get a critical mass of Lehmann recipes, and no doubt the diversity of those recipes attracted attention. By contrast, you were trying to find only one workable Lehmann recipe to use at market. So, what you did was evolutionary--where you detailed what you were doing as events unfolded, including both successes and failures. I also learned from that approach because I like to succeed as much as the next person, and I do not like to give up easily. I like intellectual challenges, and your situation offered those in spades. Unfortunately, the negative of this experience is that not many people relish the idea of reading 38 pages of posts to find a recipe to use, although there will always be a core group of members who like a stream of consciousness approach, much like reading a book where you don't know what is going to happen next. And you have made it interesting and compelling for members to want to see what happened with your latest dough experiment, with tons of photos that make one drool.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 26, 2011, 09:41:48 PM
Peter,

I have seen all the work you have done on the basic Lehmann thread.  I know it has taken you a long time to do all the experiments and then also to post about your experiments so others could learn from what you did.  I wonder how many experiments you did that you didnít post about.  I can almost bet that you have some funny stories to tell about experiments that didnít work out like you wanted them to. I havenít seen you post about any new ideas or pizzas you have tried in awhile. I have seen how you go into every detail in all your posts, just as you do in learning anything you can about pizza.  I can understand how those posts and formulas now draw attention to many guests and also members.  The basic Lehmann thread is a great place for beginners or even more experienced guests or members.

I like success as much as the next person, but I donít mind failing or telling why I think I might have failed.  I have learned something from each failure and have also gained knowledge from each success.  I think this is a really long thread and I will continue to add to this thread, but I think most members or guests really donít want to try this formula because there is a poolish involved and also most members or guests donít have a commercial oven to try.  I never tried one dough ball until recently with the Better for Bread Flour.  The formula you set-forth can work out in a shorter amount of time than I make the preferment Lehmann dough for market.  Since I have tried out the Better for Bread in this formula. in my home oven, the final pizza did turn out good, even with a shorter time for the poolish part to ferment.  In time I might try out other flours in this same dough to see what the results would be.  I am much more comfortable trying out new ideas now, than I was in the past. Since my math skills are bad, learning how to use the dough calculating tools has helped me be able to try new pizzas.  I had to concentrate to much on how the poolish behaved and also was learning much in general on how different doughs behaved.  Maybe I can come up with another better formula for someone to try at home, using a different flour, while using a poolish. Who knows what can happen, unless I try.  A basic Lehmann dough can produce a great pizza, but adding a poolish just gives the final crumb structure something different.  If you have any ideas you want me to try, just let me know. 

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 28, 2011, 08:07:09 PM
After mixing my poolish today for the preferment Lehmann dough at market, I was pondering after watching how the poolish develops many times in the past over the three day period and then seeing how strong the gluten gets from just letting it cold ferment.  When I take the poolish out of the container it is very bubbly and the strands of gluten are very strong.  I never saw the poolish fall at market while cold fermenting.  It makes me wonder, if this is also how a long fermented dough can develop gluten over about 4 days or more.  This thinking was just related to the thread I am also working on trying to make a pizza like Pizzarium.  I would think that a dough like is used for a pizza in teglia, would form the tight gluten bonds during the long cold ferment, just by letting it cold ferment.  I also saw in my experiments with the preferment Lehmann dough poolish different things could happen differently with different doughs that were made from just the poolish the other week.  I donít know if anyone might agree with me or not, in letting a dough ferment (either cold or bulk room ferment) and then the gluten getting stronger just by itself after mixing to the right point, but they are in my thoughts now.

On another note, I did send Tom Lehmann a PM this morning and told him the first experiment at market with the 4% added dairy whey did give the crust great coloration, because he had asked me to let him know how my experiments worked with the added dairy whey. I did tell Tom Lehmann I was going to do a few more experiments with the added dairy whey at market, before I would decide to use dairy whey all the time in my dough.  I also gave him the link to the preferment Lehmann pizza with the added dairy whey incase he wanted to see the pictures of the pizza.  I donít know if Tom Lehmann looked at the pictures of the pizza with added dairy whey or not, but Tom Lehmann did PM me this afternoon.  This is what he said.

Norma;
The best part of using whey to get the crust color is that the lactose sugar in the whey (this is the sugar responsible for the darkening of the crust color when using whey) in not fermentably be the yeast, hence, it is not affected by any additional fermentation that the crust might receive after it leaves your control, making it great for take and bake applications.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

After Tom Lehmann reply, I now wonder how I should reply back to his PM.  I always wanted to make a take and bake pizza at market, but always had limited results, in varying degrees.  I never thought about a take and bake while using dairy whey and what effects dairy whey would have on a take and bake pizza.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on January 28, 2011, 08:44:42 PM
Norma,

What Tom told you about the benefits of whey is well known on the forum. See, for example, the entry for dried dairy whey in the forum's Pizza Glossary at http://www.pizzamaking.com/pizza_glossary.html#D. When Steve (the owner of the forum) and I were composing the Pizza Glossary, I am sure that I wrote the dried dairy whey entry based on what Tom had written somewhere. I believe what he means to say with respect to the take-and-bake pizza is that the lactose in the dairy whey won't get used up by the yeast even if the purchaser doesn't use the take-and-bake pizza for some time. It is common and well known that purchasers of take-and-bake pizzas don't always follow the directions for use. For example, I discussed several forms of take-and-bake abuse by purchasers at Reply 349 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg21166/topicseen.html#msg21166. Since the lactose remains in the dough, even with customer abuse, it will still provide crust coloration when the user eventually gets around to baking the pizza.

If you are interested in a take-and-bake dough, whether it includes dairy whey or not, you might follow up with Tom to see what he now suggests as a decent take-and-bake product. In the past, he has referred inquiries on take-and-bake to the PMQ Recipe Bank. Maybe things have changed since then. I would perhaps keep the request generic on the take-and-bake and then ask about the possibility of using dairy whey.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 28, 2011, 09:31:38 PM
Peter,

As long as I have been on this forum, I even sometimes forget what I have read on the Pizza Glossary.  I am sure you are right as to what Tom meant to say. 

The same concerns you had with take and bakes in the link you referenced are my concerns about a take and bake, when I was trying different attempts for a take and bake.  My normal preferment Lehmann dough is made for use the day I use the dough.  I tried different ways before of making a take and bake and none of them were as successful as I wanted.  I even par-baked the crust at one point.  I also have a concern about making a take and bake and the skin wanting to stick to a round if a customer tries to remove it. 

I do sell some dough balls to customers, but donít advertize I do any longer, because I know if someone lets the dough in the refrigerator for more than 2 additional days, they might have problems with trying to open the dough.  I have intentionally left a dough ball in my refrigerator at home to see what would happen in an extra two days.  I can open the dough, but donít think a person that doesnít make pizza that much could open the dough. 

I will follow-up with Tom to see what he now suggests as a decent take and bake product.  I will also let Tom know what milestone his Tom Lehmann thread has now reached.  I am sure he would be proud to know how many times that thread has been viewed.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on January 28, 2011, 09:43:13 PM
I will follow-up with Tom to see what he now suggests as a decent take and bake product.  I will also let Tom know what milestone his Tom Lehmann thread has now reached.  I am sure he would be proud to know how many times that thread has been viewed.

Norma,

I have never told Tom about the Lehmann thread. I was afraid he would yell at me for all the things I did with his recipe and dough and start singing the song at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0-bbSSaNFE  :-D.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 28, 2011, 10:01:16 PM
Norma,

I have never told Tom about the Lehmann thread. I was afraid he would yell at me for all the things I did with his recipe and dough and start singing the song at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0-bbSSaNFE  :-D.

Peter

Peter,

That song gave me a good chuckle and especially since you never told Tom Lehmann what you did with his dough formula!   :-D I thought you might have mentioned the Tom Lehmann thread to him before. Do you really think Tom Lehmann would think you ďturned his dough formula upside downĒ?  If you donít want me to mention the milestone to Tom, I wonít.  Tom seems like a good natured man.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on January 28, 2011, 10:27:44 PM
Norma,

Tom may not know how his NY style recipe is being used all around the world, with a lot of credit to this forum for popularizing his recipe. To give you an idea, I spoke a few months ago with Thompson Ly, one of our members who moved to South China a few years ago to start a pizza business based on a NY style dough. At the time, he asked me for my help. I suggested Tom's NY style dough formulation and worked with him to refine it. Thompson now has three stores, with plans to open more. And he is still using Tom's recipe. Thompson told me that he is now known for his pizza throughout all of China. You can see his menu at http://www.nypdpizza.com.cn/.

I have no problem with Tom knowing about the Lehmann thread. As I noted recently in the Slice interview (at http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2010/12/who-is-pete-zza-from-pizzamaking-com.html#continued), I credited Tom for his influence on my pizza development. And you were a beneficiary of what I learned from Tom, with your use of the original Lehmann dough formulation and the preferment Lehmann formulation at market.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 28, 2011, 10:46:49 PM
Peter,

I didnít know you helped a man in China with a Lehmann formula.  From the link you referenced there are so many kind of pizzas.  Some of them are different than in the US.  I couldnít imagine eating a pizza with Ziti, but it might be good.  To think that man went on to open 3 pizzerias.  I bet you are also proud how well he did after you helped him.  I enjoyed looking at his menu and also what he called his pizzerias.  The picture on the right side of his pizzas sure look like a NY style pizza. 

I know I was a beneficiary of what you learned from Tom.  I will let him know about the milestone since you donít mind.  I might even tell him about the man in China that has become successful with his formula with your help.  Tom seems to be a very modest man.  If he says anything about his dough formula being so popular I will post what he says. 

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on January 28, 2011, 11:08:54 PM
Norma,

I think Thompson was in his mid-twenties when he left for China. He is an entrepreneur with a good head on his shoulders. He has also been consulting with other companies that want to open up pizzerias because he now knows how to do it. He said that about 80 percent of his business is with expats, so the NY style goes over very well there. He imports pallets of canned tomatoes from the U.S. at multiples of what we pay in the U.S. but he is still profitable, mostly because of the low labor costs in China. I am happy for him. Nothing would please me more than to see him make it big time. He has always expressed his gratitude for my having helped him. When we last spoke (he said it was 3 AM his time), I offered to help him tweak the Lehmann formulation based on what I learned about the NY style since he started using it (I was thinking of a thinner crust). He told me that he and his customers liked his pizza very much as is and added that "if it isn't broke, don't fix it".

Peter



Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 28, 2011, 11:22:02 PM
Peter,

I am also happy for Thompson.  He really sounds like a great entrepreneur.  I wish him much more success if he does consulting now.  Thompson sounds a lot like Tom Lehmann in his modest gratitude and even talking to you at 3am his time.  Tom Lehmann has always been kind to me and although I have asked him many questions, he still takes the time to answer my questions even if I am a small business.  Thompson must also have the same attitude as Tom has in "if it isn't broke, don't fix it".  That phrase alone does sound like Tom. 

Thanks for telling me about Thompson and how he has succeeded.  I enjoy hearing a story like that.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 29, 2011, 09:19:40 PM
From a little leftover piece of preferment Lehmann dough I unfroze for a Greek-style pizza, I decided to make a little boat or something similar.  I stretched the small piece out and then dressed it with my regular tomato sauce, Parmesan cheese, and mozzarella.  The little boat was baked right on my pizza stone at around 500 degrees F.  After the little boat was baked I used my fresh basil I had started from a piece of fresh basil in the fall.  I have been feeding this bunch of fresh basil milk kefir, while in a pot with dirt and it seems to be doing well. 

I also used the preferment Lehmann dough to make a Greek-style pizza, after the advice of Peter (Pete-zza) for trying the preferment Lehmann dough for a Greek-style pizza.  The preferment Lehmann dough did work out well for a Greek-style pizza. 

This is where I posted the other pictures of the Greek-style pizza and also posted how I made the Greek-style pizza at Reply 143  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,691.msg125069.html#msg125069               

Now the preferment Lehmann dough has two more things it can be used for.  I am glad the preferment Lehmann dough did work out for a Greek-style pizza. 

After making the little boat, I can see this would be a good way to make individual pizzas for more people.  It doesnít have to be cut, (to be able to eat the little boat) but I did cut the little boat, just so the inside crumb could be seen.  The little boat was quick to make out of the leftover dough.

Pictures of little boat and some pictures of Greek-style pizza.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 29, 2011, 09:22:43 PM
rest of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 31, 2011, 09:08:32 AM
Norma,

Tom may not know how his NY style recipe is being used all around the world, with a lot of credit to this forum for popularizing his recipe. To give you an idea, I spoke a few months ago with Thompson Ly, one of our members who moved to South China a few years ago to start a pizza business based on a NY style dough. At the time, he asked me for my help. I suggested Tom's NY style dough formulation and worked with him to refine it. Thompson now has three stores, with plans to open more. And he is still using Tom's recipe. Thompson told me that he is now known for his pizza throughout all of China. You can see his menu at http://www.nypdpizza.com.cn/.

I have no problem with Tom knowing about the Lehmann thread. As I noted recently in the Slice interview (at http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2010/12/who-is-pete-zza-from-pizzamaking-com.html#continued), I credited Tom for his influence on my pizza development. And you were a beneficiary of what I learned from Tom, with your use of the original Lehmann dough formulation and the preferment Lehmann formulation at market.

Peter

Peter or anyone that might be interested,

I did send Tom Lehmann a PM and told him about the Tom Lehmann thread and how it has reached a milestone and also how you helped a man in China to become successful with the Lehmann formula.  This is what Tom replied back this morning.


Sent: 31 Jan 2011 13:55
From: Tom Lehmann
To: norma427

Norma;
Wow! I don't know what to say. I'm truly humbled by the notariety.
I'm just glad that I'm able to help so many people, and what is so astonishing is that there are so many people out there like you passing it on to others.
It truly makes one proud to be a part of such a great industry.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Tom Lehmann is a great man.  He has shared his knowledge with so many people and he is still humble.  My hat is off to Tom.  :chef:

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on January 31, 2011, 01:27:36 PM
Norma,

Thanks for posting Tom's reply.

I am pretty sure that Thompson told me that at one time he reached out to Tom Lehmann for advice on some matter relating to his business. He also used to reach out to pizza operators for advice on the business side of his operation. Unfortunately two of his best sources went out of business.

I neglected to mention that before you came onto the forum I started a thread on Thompson's use of Tom's recipe in China, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5476.msg46215.html#msg46215.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 31, 2011, 07:08:15 PM
Peter,

I never saw that thread you had started on Thompson using the Lehmann recipe in China. I throughly enjoyed the article you referenced about Thompson and even how he decided to name his pizza businesses.  Thompson even foresaw what happened in the US economy.  He had an export and import business before he decided to open his pizzeria.  His experiences with running   Papa Johnís outlets did prepare him for operating his own pizza businesses.  I liked the part about Thompson developing his secret recipes.  Thompson didnít even display any of his awards for his pizzas because he was so low-profile. I can see Thompson was well prepared for opening his own pizza business in another part of the world.  I think Tom Lehmann, Thompson and you are a lot alike.  All of you are humble and donít expect anything in return for all your contributions to the pizza making world.

Thanks for linking the article.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on January 31, 2011, 07:22:38 PM
Norma,

It is rare to find someone in the pizza business who doesn't claim to use secret recipes. If you didn't post your preferment Lehmann recipe, it, too, would be a "secret" recipe, but with greater justification compared with most recipes I know of that are far simpler and basic than yours. If you were Italian, you would be saying that you are using "secret" recipes from Italy. I've never heard anyone in the pizza business say that they are using secret recipes from places like Poland or Turkey. It's always from Italy. In Thompson's case, however, he maintains tight control over all of the processes, including dough formulation and sauce recipes (he prepares and controls the spice blends). Intellectual property laws in China are far less developed than in the U.S., with lax enforcement, so one has to be extra cautious to protect trade secrets and other property rights.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 31, 2011, 07:56:20 PM
Peter,

I know itís rare to find someone in the pizza business that doesnít say they use a secret recipe.  Even our small pizza businesses in our area wouldnít ever give out how they prepare their doughs. Almost all the independent pizza businesses in our area have Italian owners, and they all think their doughs are the best, but I have found out otherwise since I have been on this forum.  I am a small pizza business and I wouldnít ever care if someone would copy any pizzas doughs I make.  I donít think many would want bother with a poolish preferment and wouldnít have the time to spend on one either.

I can understand Thompsonís has to use a tight control over all his processes.  He wouldnít be unique if he didnít.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on February 02, 2011, 10:49:44 PM
I tried one  experimental preferment Lehmann dough ball with the leftover poolish from market.  I have a Cuisinart spice & nut grinder.  I used Spring Wheat Prairie Gold 10%  (23.45 grams) and ground pecans 10% (23.45) KASL 80% (187.6 grams) and added some extra water (120 grams) altogether in the mix, because the Prairie Gold and ground nuts did make the dough drier.  I used the same amount of poolish and the rest of the ingredients.  I mixed the dough yesterday and baked the pie this evening.  I ground the Prairie Gold and the pecans in my spice and nut grinder. 

This was the most different crust I have tried so far.  It had a slight taste of pecans, which I thought tasted good.   I have tried Prairie Gold in a pie I made before in the basic Lehmann thread.

This pie was dressed with my regular tomato sauce, a blend of white cheddar and mozzarella, grape tomatoes that were slightly fried in olive oil with herbs, red and green peppers and after the bake a small amount of basil was placed in the middle of the pie. 

Pictures below

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on February 02, 2011, 10:52:06 PM
rest of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on February 05, 2011, 08:53:26 AM
Peter,

I have a question to ask you, but I donít know if you will be able to answer it or not.  I might just have to do the experiment to find out.  I had used my leftover preferment Lehmann poolish from market last week to make a Tartine Bread at Reply 653 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12042.msg125507.html#msg125507

I then put a small amount of poolish into the refrigerator.  I want to try and make a Tartine Bread again with the poolish made last Friday (the poolish was then ready to used by last Monday).  These are two pictures of how the poolish looks this morning.  Do you think the poolish is still unable?  The bubbles arenít as big and the gluten isnít as formed as when I used the poolish to make the Tartine bread.  I was just wondering if you ever heard of someone using a poolish and being successful after a longer time.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on February 06, 2011, 11:40:37 AM
Norma,

I have been tied up with visitors who have come into Dallas for the Super Bowl game so I haven't been around to post.

I think the risk of using a poolish that has been allowed to preferment too long is that there may be excessively high acid levels that might adversely affect the dough (in terms of extensibility) and the finished crust (off flavors). There may also be depletion of sugar levels in the dough as yeast levels decline, requiring you to use a bit more yeast as part of the final mix. But you are correct that the only way to really find out what the effects are is to to actually use the poolish to make the bread.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on February 06, 2011, 02:01:18 PM
Norma,

I have been tied up with visitors who have come into Dallas for the Super Bowl game so I haven't been around to post.

I think the risk of using a poolish that has been allowed to preferment too long is that there may be excessively high acid levels that might adversely affect the dough (in terms of extensibility) and the finished crust (off flavors). There may also be depletion of sugar levels in the dough as yeast levels decline, requiring you to use a bit more yeast as part of the final mix. But you are correct that the only way to really find out what the effects are is to to actually use the poolish to make the bread.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for letting me know what you think about using the old poolish.  I might add more yeast in the final dough and see what happens.  I had looked on the internet and on the forum and couldnít see where anyone had tried an old poolish before.  I know the ideal time to use a poolish is at least at the break point.  I was contemplating what might go wrong and havenít tried the poolish yet to make a dough.  This afternoon the poolish is almost fallen altogether.  I might try the old preferment Lehmann poolish in a dough for the Tartine bread to see what happens.  If I ever can get the Tartine Bread with a preferment Lehmann dough poolish down okay, I might make paniniís at market with the Tartine Bread.  It also depends on if I can make a suitable size loaf and the it bakes well in the deck oven with my deck height limitations.  Since my deck oven isnít very high that poses more problems. 

Have a nice time with your friends during the Super Bowl.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on February 07, 2011, 08:15:18 AM
I made the Tartine bread dough with the old preferment Lehmann poolish yesterday and used 75 grams old poolish and 40 grams of Ischia starter, that I recently revived.  I had kept 1 container of Ischia starter in the refrigerator for a long while, just to see if it could be revived.  The Ischia starter wasnít fully revived, when I used it. The old poolish that had almost stopped bubbling still felt like it had before. (it was springy and almost felt like a Pizzarium dough) I have no idea how the dough will bake into bread, but so far it feels and looks okay.

Picture of Ischia starter before I revived it (2/05/2011) and pictures of dough with old preferment poolish added this morning top and bottom of dough for an attempt at Tartine Bread.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on February 08, 2011, 09:24:06 PM
I baked the Tartine bread with the old preferment Lehmann dough poolish and from the two bakes today, I donít think I will be able to make the Tartine bread in my deck oven.  For one thing the deck is too low and another thing is because I keep my oven temperatures higher, I donít think the higher temperatures are good for a Tartine bread.  The ends of the bread did bake well, but the middle of the bread was more dense. 

I had cut the one dough to try in the bake.  I had trouble getting the one loaf out of the oven.  I had cut the first loaf so it could rise, but somehow the one end sprang faster than the other end.  I donít know why that happened.  The one loaf was more in a longer shape and the other loaf was in a round shape.  The longer shaped loaf did turn out better.

At least the old preferment Lehmann poolish did work well to make this dough rise in combination with the Ischia starter and the bread did taste good.  I had one slice of the Tartine bread that was brushed with garlic and herb infused olive oil and then heated with mozzarella.  I enjoyed that slice.

Pictures below

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on February 08, 2011, 09:25:24 PM
end of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on February 14, 2011, 06:27:00 PM
Well, I made a big leap today.  I put dairy whey in a 15 lb. batch of dough.  If this doesnít work out okay tomorrow I am in big trouble.  ::) My other doughs were regular though.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on February 15, 2011, 09:44:17 PM
I used most of the dough balls with added dairy whey today.  The crust did brown better, but I am not still sure if they added dairy whey does make my pizzas look better.  The crust didnít taste any different than when I didnít use dairy whey.  I had added more water to the 15 lb. batch of dough because it had felt drier. The skins did feel a little bit drier with the added dairy whey when opening the doughs. The crumb didnít taste any moister than my regular preferment Lehmann dough pizzas.  I did save a few dough balls to freeze to see what happens to the frozen dough balls when they are rethawed. 

Pictures of some of the pies made today with the added dairy whey.  The last pictures are one Greek-style pizza, a Sicilian pizza made with the preferment Lehmann dough and an experimental Nutella pie with cultured butter dotted around the edges all without added dairy whey.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on February 15, 2011, 09:47:03 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on February 15, 2011, 09:49:21 PM
end of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on February 15, 2011, 10:40:28 PM
Norma,

It sounds like you have made some decisions on what you would like to make at market on a regular basis.

You have been on quite a culinary journey, starting on April 8, 2009 when you asked me for help in coming up with a NY style dough formulation (www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8341.0.html). That was the basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation. In due course, that led to the preferment Lehmann dough formulation. That became the mainstay of the pizzas you made at market while you experimented with other variations, including the use of wa dave's milk-based sourdough mix, the Ischia Lehmann starter/preferment dough formulation and the Lehmann milk kefir preferment version. Most recently, you tried using dried dairy whey as a way of improving the crust coloration of your Lehmann crusts. Of course, along the way you also came up with 101 ways of using the Lehmann dough, including what appears to be credible Greek and Sicilian style pizzas based on the Lehmann dough. You have made many incredible pizzas along the way. And I think it is safe to say that we and others on the forum have learned a lot from what you did.

Have you settled on what you would like to make at market on a regular basis, and what forms your pizzas will take beyond the basic NY style? And are there other styles that you would like to offer?

Peter



Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on February 15, 2011, 11:20:47 PM
Peter,

It has been a good journey from my first post about asking you how to make a basic Lehmann dough and learning from there to where I am now. This almost past two years has had it share of challenges, but they all taught me something more about dough. I think my decision now is to stay with the preferment Lehmann dough.  I have it down pat and it does create a delicious pizza and I can also make many other things from the same dough.   After I was thinking about it today, I donít think my market customers would notice the difference if I went to a natural preferment dough.  I canít really tell that much difference myself.  The crumb structure is different and the taste of the crust is better to me, but most of my customers never tried a natural preferment crust.

I donít know if I will be able to make a Pizzarium style pizza at market, but have been working on using basically the same dough in my last attempt as my preferment Lehmann dough, but using a higher hydration and more oil in the dough.  It will be a challenge to make a Pizzarium style pizza from this same dough.   Do you have any ideas on if this might work or not?  I recently found I can use this same poolish and it works well.  I just need to get down how to handle the dough.  If I could get this down okay, then I could use the same poolish as I make on Fridays.  Do you also have any other ideas of what I can do with the preferment Lehmann dough? 
I think I have come to the conclusion that making a natural preferment Lehmann dough at market it not going to work, but I never would say never.

Thanks for helping me though all the other experiments to be able to come to my decision now.  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on February 16, 2011, 01:55:25 PM
I donít know if I will be able to make a Pizzarium style pizza at market, but have been working on using basically the same dough in my last attempt as my preferment Lehmann dough, but using a higher hydration and more oil in the dough.  It will be a challenge to make a Pizzarium style pizza from this same dough.   Do you have any ideas on if this might work or not?  I recently found I can use this same poolish and it works well.  I just need to get down how to handle the dough.  If I could get this down okay, then I could use the same poolish as I make on Fridays.  Do you also have any other ideas of what I can do with the preferment Lehmann dough? 
I think I have come to the conclusion that making a natural preferment Lehmann dough at market it not going to work, but I never would say never.

Norma,

As you know, with the preferment Lehmann dough we were operating within a strict set of constraints as imposed on you by the management of the market. I don't know offhand how you might adapt the preferment Lehmann dough to achieve a Pizzarium type dough while operating within the same set of constraints. You might have to come up with another dough formulation that gives you that style of pizza. Also, you would have to decide whether you are willing to make another dough just to be able to offer a Pizzarium style pizza in a one day a week operation. I have been only loosely following the action on the Pizzarium thread. I would have liked to follow that thread more closely but the volume of posts on the forum has been so high lately, with over a 100 new posts a day, that it has been difficult for me to review them all in my role as a Moderator and to try to fully comprehend each post at the same time. The Pizzarium thread is a very active thread with many participants and many variations of dough formulations, ingredients and methods and a lot of links to videos, articles, etc. Since you have been in the thick of things for some time, you will be in a better position than I to know how, if at all, you might modify the preferment Lehmann dough formulation to achieve a Pizzarium type pizza within the constraints imposed by the managers of the market operation.

With respect to the preferment Lehmann dough formulation itself, the only thought I had in the way of modifying it would be to increase the dairy whey content, maybe to around 10%. I believe that was the number Tom Lehmann tossed out. It would be interesting to see if his number is a better number to use than the 4% figure I suggested.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on February 16, 2011, 05:37:22 PM
Norma,

As you know, with the preferment Lehmann dough we were operating within a strict set of constraints as imposed on you by the management of the market. I don't know offhand how you might adapt the preferment Lehmann dough to achieve a Pizzarium type dough while operating within the same set of constraints. You might have to come up with another dough formulation that gives you that style of pizza. Also, you would have to decide whether you are willing to make another dough just to be able to offer a Pizzarium style pizza in a one day a week operation. I have been only loosely following the action on the Pizzarium thread. I would have liked to follow that thread more closely but the volume of posts on the forum has been so high lately, with over a 100 new posts a day, that it has been difficult for me to review them all in my role as a Moderator and to try to fully comprehend each post at the same time. The Pizzarium thread is a very active thread with many participants and many variations of dough formulations, ingredients and methods and a lot of links to videos, articles, etc. Since you have been in the thick of things for some time, you will be in a better position than I to know how, if at all, you might modify the preferment Lehmann dough formulation to achieve a Pizzarium type pizza within the constraints imposed by the managers of the market operation.

With respect to the preferment Lehmann dough formulation itself, the only thought I had in the way of modifying it would be to increase the dairy whey content, maybe to around 10%. I believe that was the number Tom Lehmann tossed out. It would be interesting to see if his number is a better number to use than the 4% figure I suggested.

Peter

Peter,

I know I have to work at market in the time restraints that are imposed for me.  I was thinking along the lines of making the same poolish for the preferment Lehmann dough and trying to incorporate it into a preferment Lehmann dough for a Pizzarium style dough on a Monday.  The last formula I used is at Reply 519 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9989.msg127198.html#msg127198

In that formula I used the poolish from one dough ball for the preferment Lehmann dough, but added cake yeast also, because for me cake yeast does seem to make the dough more bubbly.  At least for now that is my thought.  I upped the hydration and added more oil, but basically it is almost like a Lehmann dough.  At least the preferment Lehmann dough poolish did work by making it on a Friday and then incorporating it into the dough on Sunday.  Since I did use all KASL in my last experiment, I would tend to think it might work out for a Pizzarium style, but donít know.  This week I might try again.  It doesnít take me very long to make doughs at market in my mixer, but I would first have to see if any customers are even interested in a Pizzarium style at market.  The people that did taste the Pizzarium style really raved about it. One customer wanted to buy the rest of the pie, but I wanted to have a few slices to reheat. I know the Pizzarium thread is very active and I even have trouble trying to understand all that is happening on that thread.  With each member that tries something different there, or posts links or videos there is something to be learned. 

I can understand as your role as a moderator with all the new posts each day it is hard to keep up on all that is going on and also trying to police what is going on in the entire forum.  Your job as a moderator and the other moderators can take a lot of time.  Many thanks to you and the other moderators for making this forum a friendly place that anyone can learn.

If I have time this Friday I will also mix a Lehmann dough with 10% dairy whey to see what happens.  The crust did brown better than my regular preferment Lehmann dough, but I donít really think it would be worth investing more money to purchase dairy whey for the little bit of browning I did get.  The pizzas baked with dairy whey do need to be watch more closely when they are in the oven. The bottom crust was browned just right in my opinion with added dairy whey.  I wonder what will happen with that with the added dairy whey.  The only way I will know is to try.

Lorenzo from Roccaís Pizza was over at market to visit again yesterday. Steve and I talked to him a little. I had to laugh when he was there.  He said can I throw the dough.  I was opening a dough and quickly threw it into the air.  He just looked with big opened eyes.  He said he is going to bring me steel pans, but I donít know if he will. I told him I would buy some from him, but he said he wants to give me some. He smelled and touched my different doughs and said the Pizzarium dough need flour on the surface.  I said I know it did need flour when I was ready to open it.   :-D

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on February 16, 2011, 06:48:13 PM
Norma,

If you get to the point where you have a modified Pizzarium/Lehmann preferment dough formulation that works, I can help you with the math to break down the formulation into its three parts.

Lorenzo sounds like a real character. Has he tried your slices and, if so, what was his reaction?

BTW, on the matter of the Lehmann crust coloration, it is quite common for authentic NY style pizzas, especially from the slice joints, to have light colored crusts, almost white. Maybe that is intentional so that more crust color can develop during reheating of the slices. Our members tend to favor a fair amount of char and also large, open and airy rims for the NY style (not the "elite" style, which tend to have a lot of char). Many authentic NY slice pizzas I have seen have had quite small rims.

Peter

Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on February 16, 2011, 08:30:14 PM
Norma,

If you get to the point where you have a modified Pizzarium/Lehmann preferment dough formulation that works, I can help you with the math to break down the formulation into its three parts.

Lorenzo sounds like a real character. Has he tried your slices and, if so, what was his reaction?

BTW, on the matter of the Lehmann crust coloration, it is quite common for authentic NY style pizzas, especially from the slice joints, to have light colored crusts, almost white. Maybe that is intentional so that more crust color can develop during reheating of the slices. Our members tend to favor a fair amount of char and also large, open and airy rims for the NY style (not the "elite" style, which tend to have a lot of char). Many authentic NY slice pizzas I have seen have had quite small rims.

Peter



Peter,

Thanks for telling me if I get to the point of having a modified Lehmann dough for the Pizzarium thread, you would help me with the math part of breaking down the formulation into three parts.

Lorenzo is a real character.  I laugh (to myself) every time I see him at my stand.  No, he hasnít tried any of my slices, but said they look good and isnít saying anymore that my dough doesnít look proofed enough.  If he comes again, I will offer him and his friend a slice.  The friend never talks. Lorenzo talks so fast, and uses his hands so much that I have trouble keeping up with him. Lorenzo told a potential customers yesterday to buy the pizza because he said it was great.  At least he was trying to help with my business.  Steve and I were talking yesterday about maybe going to one of his shops sometime.  I would like to see how he makes his dough, if he would show us.  Lorenzo told me he bought a bunch of steel pans at a auction.  I asked him what kinds of pizzas he makes and he replied: ďall kindsĒ.  That is to be seen.  I asked Lorenzo if he ever heard of Pizzarium in Rome and he didnít.  I have Lorenzoís personal phone number and might call him someday to see when he would be at one of the pizza shops. 

I know the authentic NY style slices donít have any char, no brown rims, and the rims arenít big.  I have eaten  whole pies and slices in NY many times.  In comparison I usually ask my customers if they would like to have a slice with a bigger rim or maybe the rims that are smaller.  They mostly prefer the bigger rims, just like the members of this forum.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on February 19, 2011, 12:07:18 AM
Steve (Ev) and I tried a preferment Lehmann dough S'More pizza in his WFO tonight.  I used the homemade Nutella for the chocolate and added graham cracker crumbs and small marshmallows on the pie before the bake.  I think we should have waited until near the end of the bake to add the marshmallows.  They got crispy on the top, but the bottom of the marshmallows were still nice and soft.  We had to pull the pie out of the WFO sooner than we wanted.  :-D At least the preferment Lehmann dough was in a WFO to bake.

Pictures below

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pizza01 on February 19, 2011, 08:13:55 AM
that look so tasty... the combination of nutalla on that floffy looking dough. i am litel ill and that slice could make fill real better right now. with warm cup of milk and honey... yamm...
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on February 19, 2011, 08:38:13 AM
that look so tasty... the combination of nutalla on that floffy looking dough. i am litel ill and that slice could make fill real better right now. with warm cup of milk and honey... yamm...

Michael,

Thanks for your kind words.  :) If you are interested in the pie I made with Nutella and the cultured butter, the Nutella and cultured butter pie is at Reply 776 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg127134.html#msg127134 after the regular pie pictures.

I hope you soon are feeling better.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pizza01 on February 19, 2011, 08:40:55 AM
thank you norma.
i saw it the crumb looks perfect!  and those pizzas looks very tasty.
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on February 19, 2011, 08:52:41 AM
thank you norma.
i saw it the crumb looks perfect!  and those pizzas looks very tasty.

Michael,

Thanks!  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on February 21, 2011, 08:34:31 PM
This is my dough ball with the 10% dairy whey added.  Might have to freeze this dough ball because we are supposed to get snow in our area.  It is already snowing.   :(

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on March 01, 2011, 10:12:41 PM
Well, I did take the dough ball along to market today that I used 10% dairy whey in the formula.  I got the pie ready to bake and a lady came to my pizza stand I knew that just had a baby 3 weeks ago.  I was holding the baby while Steve watched the pie in the oven.  I had taken the pictures of the dough and was going to take other pictures, but as soon as the pie came out of the oven, and while I was still holding the baby, the whole pie sold before I could get any pictures of what it looked like.  The pie did bake with a golden brown color.  I didnít even have a chance to taste the pie.  I said to Steve, ďWhat happened to that pie!Ē  He said we just sold it.  Well so much for a picture of the pie with 10% dairy whey added.  Anyone reading this post will just have to believe what happened and think how it might have looked from my description.   :-D

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on March 05, 2011, 12:16:42 AM
Norma,

Somehow I missed your last post. Do you plan to go to 10% dairy whey for your basic preferment Lehmann dough that you have been using at market?

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on March 05, 2011, 07:24:22 AM
Norma,

Somehow I missed your last post. Do you plan to go to 10% dairy whey for your basic preferment Lehmann dough that you have been using at market?

Peter

Peter,

I donít even know how the pie tasted with the 10% dairy whey added. What I saw of one slice looked good. When I went back into my stand,  a customer wanted a slice of pepperoni pizza.  There was one slice that was really golden brown and I asked him did he want that slice or a lighter one that was on another rack.  After I sold that slice and the man walked away with it, I realized that must have been the pie baked with the 10% dairy whey.  I then asked Steve was that the pie and he said yes, he forgot to take a picture of the whole pie.  The pie was gone then, because I was talking to my friend and holding the baby.  Usually Steve and I taste every experimental pie, but somehow that whole pie was gone, before either of us could taste or even examine it, because we were busy at the time.  Steve said he really had to watch that pie because it did brown faster.  I mixed up another poolish yesterday and am going to add 10% dairy whey to the final dough again Monday for 1 dough ball.  This time I am going to taste the pie and also watch how it bakes.  I donít think I ever forgot to take pictures of experimental pies before.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on March 07, 2011, 10:49:37 AM
I made another dough ball this morning with 10% dairy whey added.  Hope I don't get preoccupied tomorrow again, so I can really see how the pie looks and tastes.  ::)

Picture of dough ball with 10% dairy whey added.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on March 08, 2011, 09:48:07 PM
The preferment Lehmann dough made with 10% dairy whey turned out good today at market, but I donít know why the rim of the crust didnít get as dark as last week.  Steve was watching the oven last week and I only got to see one piece of that pie and that crust looked a lot darker to me then.  This inside of the rim was very moist and the bottom crust almost was like the milk kefir pizza I also made today.  I donít know why the bottom crust did look almost the same.  The taste of the crust was very good.  Steve and I both enjoyed this pie. 

Pictures below

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on March 08, 2011, 09:50:39 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on March 08, 2011, 09:52:01 PM
end of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on March 09, 2011, 08:01:13 AM
This is one pizza made yesterday with the regular Preferment Lehmann dough, without added dairy whey.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on March 23, 2011, 08:19:48 AM
I tried a couple of experiments out when making my final dough on Monday to see what would happen in the mixer and with the final dough, if I added more water after the dough was mixed.  I didnít take any pictures of what happened, but will take pictures next week, if I remember.  The extra water added at the end had the water sloshing around with the dough, with pieces of the dough splattered on the sides of the mixer bowl,  but finally the dough did come together nicely.  I have been adding more water to the Preferment Lehmann doughs at market, but before I added the water directly at the beginning of the mix.  The sloshing dough didnít seem to have an affect on my dough yesterday and the pizza looked about the same.

My great-granddaughter also came to visit at market last evening, not to long before I closed.  She also really likes pizza, as I do.  She ate a lot of pizza.  I gave my great-granddaughter a small dough ball to play with.  She really liked playing with the cold dough ball and no dough stuck to her fingers.  Maybe she will be the next pizza maker in our family.  :)

Pictures of a couple of pies yesterday with the sloshing water added and also pictures of my great-granddaughter eating the pizzas and playing with the dough ball.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on March 23, 2011, 08:22:22 AM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on March 23, 2011, 08:23:36 AM
end of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on March 28, 2011, 06:23:03 PM
As I posted last week, I was going to do another experiment this week to see if adding more water at the end of the mix makes any difference in the dough.  These are two batches of dough I made today, one with adding the water with the preferment and all the other ingredients, except the olive oil at the very end of the mix.  The second batch was made the same way, but the olive oil also was added before I added the extra water I now put in my preferment Lehmann dough.  I am putting more water in my preferment Lehmann dough now because I am beginning to like a higher hydration dough.  As can be seen during the mix of the second batch the water splatters on the sides of the mixing bowl, but it doesnít seem to make any difference in the final dough, after the extra water in incorporated.  I will have to do some more experiments to see if this holds true.  I don't know if this is called a double hydration of water or not.

Pictures of first and second test batches, dough and dough balls.  The one stray dough ball in the picture of the first batch of dough balls is just a leftover dough that didn't weigh enough.  It wasn't balled.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on March 28, 2011, 06:23:57 PM
end of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Mmmph on March 28, 2011, 08:59:55 PM
13, plus one stray. 16 in the next batch. Was there that much additional water?
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on March 28, 2011, 10:17:09 PM
13, plus one stray. 16 in the next batch. Was there that much additional water?

Mmmph,

The stray dough ball I just put into the second batch.  If you look at the dough balls for the second batch there is also a smaller dough ball at the one end.  I put the same amount of water in both batches.  I just added the water differently for the second experiment.  Both batches were exactly the same with flour, water, IDY, preferment, salt and olive oil.  The preferment Lehmann dough was figured out by Peter.  In a little over the last month I found I like more water in the formula.

I hope what I posted made sense. 

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on March 29, 2011, 10:46:39 PM
These were a few pies that were made today with the water added up front and also the extra water added at the end of the mix.  There didnít seem to be any difference in the way the dough baked.  I had lowered my oven temperatures today and the pies seemed to brown better.  I might try lowering the temperature on my oven more next week to see what happens.

Pictures below

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on March 29, 2011, 10:47:36 PM
end of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 01, 2011, 06:26:34 PM
The one maintenance man at market, is a friend of mine , and also really likes the preferment Lehmann dough to make pizzas.  He buys dough balls from me and also tries some of my experimental pies.  He is always asking what kind of experimental pizzas either Steve or I am making for the week.  When he came to buy dough balls from me Tuesday, he drew a picture on a paper plate.  He said the name for my pizza stand should be Normaís Dough-LI-Lama Pizza, since I like to play with dough so much.  I really liked the name he suggested and also how he drew a dough ball.  The maintenance man drew this picture in less than 5 minutes.  I asked him how he can draw so fast and he said he just visualizes what he wants to draw and then does it.

Picture below

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: StrayBullet on April 01, 2011, 08:15:36 PM
I see a new logo in your future Norma; that's awesome!

Mark
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 01, 2011, 11:01:17 PM
I see a new logo in your future Norma; that's awesome!

Mark

Mark,

The maintenance man draws many caricatures of different people, makes Christmas cards and other things with his drawings.  He is really good at doing that.  :) I had thought about him drawing a caricature of me, but was afraid what I might look like.  :-D I do like his drawing as a logo. I am going to laminate it and hang it at my stand. 

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 06, 2011, 08:40:46 AM
I decided to do another experiment on the preferment Lehmann dough since I am using a higher hydration.  For one batch I formed the dough balls in the normal way I do.  For the second batch I formed the dough balls and left them sit for 5 minutes after I formed them and then reballed again.  I donít know what anyone else thinks, but I think from this first test the finished crust looks more artisan looking, from the extra reball.  It also seemed to me that there were more bubbles in the skin when opening them.  

I also did one experiment on one dough ball from the extra reball.  I just pressed the dough out and put it into the oven.  It browned nicely and formed what was like a balloon like it normally would, but I left it in the oven a little longer.  The dough ball looked almost like bread when it was finished baking.  I then left it cool, cut it in half and spread Nutella on the one side and put it back into the oven so the Nutella would melt.  After the second short bake, I sprinkled powdered sugar over the top.  Steve, another stand holder and I really enjoyed this Nutella pie.

On another note, the man at market that drew the picture he created for me last week visited me yesterday and said he really likes to do cartoons, caricatures, and drawings of people.  I asked him if he could do a cartoon drawing of me.  He came up with so many good ideas and since he really likes Gary Larson and Bill Waterson, and follows what they do,  he said he is going to make a cartoon of me in various ways of my dough and pizza making.  Should be interesting to see what he comes up with.  He took a picture of me for his cartoon of me.  The man said he really likes to do one cell cartoons.  I know he is very talented.  It is interesting to me how he gets all his ideas and then can put them onto paper.  I might look like the Far Sided character I usually am with all my experimenting.  :-D

Pictures of tests on two different doughs and Nutella Pie.  First set of pictures is from the extra reball of the dough balls.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 06, 2011, 08:43:04 AM
more pictures of reballed dough pies

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 06, 2011, 08:44:44 AM
non reballed dough pies

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 06, 2011, 08:46:26 AM
Nutella pie

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 13, 2011, 11:11:33 AM
I donít know what was the problem with my dough yesterday, but I think I might have reballed it too much or either the temperature when I made the final dough made a difference.  Last week when I balled two different batches of dough, I did reballed on one batch of dough balls two times.  I thought last week, they were harder to open than normal, but wasnít sure.  I decided on Monday to reball the dough balls from two batches 1 time again. This sure could have been a mistake.  I had good luck with reballing a higher hydration dough like Reinhart NY style dough two times or more.  That is one reason I was experimenting on the preferment Lehmann dough balls. Yesterday those two batches of dough balls were really hard to open and some of the skins wanted to tear in a few places.  Usually when opening the dough balls there arenít any problems with opening the dough balls.  We broke a record for temperatures in our area on Monday when I made the final dough.  It was 84 degrees F.  I still donít know if this also might have caused the problems with opening the dough, but it might have.  I sure didnít like how these dough balls behaved.  Even Steve opened a few dough balls and had the same problems.  I surely donít want these problems every week.  The dough balls seemed to ferment so much faster too, when left out at room temperatures to temper, yesterday.  I donít usually open my dough balls right out of the cooler, but that seemed to work  better.  It was cooler in our area yesterday (47 degrees F and raining most of the day).  From the experiments in reballing in the last two weeks, I think, but am not sure, knowing when to reball can be complicated.  There must be some relation to hydration, temperature, and just enough tightness in the dough balls. All these dough balls were left to cold ferment for almost a day, so I would have thought the gluten would have been aligned okay. At least these are my opinions for now.

Dave, the man that drew the drawing for me the other week, came to my pizza stand a few times yesterday.  He said he had made a cartoon of me, but wasnít finished.  I asked him if I could see the cartoon, because I was curious to see what it looked like.  He brought the cartoon for me to see.  I have to laugh out loud, because I thought the caption was funny about me.  I told him the drawing was fine and he didnít have to do anymore on it.  He said he had wanted to color it in more and it was only a first draft.  I told Dave it was fine.  Dave told me that it is based on cartoons he has followed by B. Kliban and Gary Larson.   He told me that Gary Larson had been influenced by B. Kliban.  I donít really think the caption is what I would dream of, but I  thought it was hilarious.  :-D  Dave said he would do more cartoon or drawings for me, whenever I wanted.  He even said he would draw a book about my pizza making, with captions, if I wanted.  Dave does have a degree in art and does teach children how to draw cartoons, in addition to being a maintenance man at market.  I really like Dave and think his drawings, cartoons and ways of thinking are unique.  He always makes Steve and me laugh.  

Any comments of the cartoon Dave made of Farsided me?

Pictures of Dave and the cartoon of me.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: briterian on April 18, 2011, 09:55:35 PM
Hi Norma
Nice to see this thread still very active.   Are you able to summarize your go to recipe?  I'm having trouble sifting through your awesome experiments to see if there is one standout.   Thanks
Brian
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 18, 2011, 10:17:27 PM
Hi Norma
Nice to see this thread still very active.   Are you able to summarize your go to recipe?  I'm having trouble sifting through your awesome experiments to see if there is one standout.   Thanks
Brian

Brian,

How many dough balls did you want to know about making?  The only thing I have been trying is adding more water to the formula, but I really canít tell you how much, unless you want to know about a 15 lb. batch.  The only other experiment I was doing with this dough was giving it an extra reball, after about 10 mintues.  I didnít like the effect that had when opening the dough balls last week.  I am back this week to just adding a little more water, because I do like a little higher hydration dough.  I didnít do any extra reball this week.  The extra reball last week caused too many problems.

Basically I am doing the same thing as I did before.

If there is anything you need to know, just ask.  

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 28, 2011, 11:35:32 PM
I just wanted to update what I did with the dough this last week after the other problems I was having after doing a second reball.  I am now going back to just balling the dough ball once.  My dough balls were easier to open this past Tuesday.  I forgot to post these pictures and update this thread right after Tuesday.

These are just two pictures of the same pie on Tuesday morning.  I didnít take any other pictures of the pies though out the day, but they all looked somewhat the same as these pictures.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on April 29, 2011, 08:58:42 PM
Norma,

To be sure I understand, are you saying that you experienced problems opening the preferment Lehmann dough balls when you formed them into balls and didn't later reball them at all or that the problems arose when you tried to reball the dough balls once after forming, or maybe twice? Also, what hydration values were you using?

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 29, 2011, 10:39:03 PM
Norma,

To be sure I understand, are you saying that you experienced problems opening the preferment Lehmann dough balls when you formed them into balls and didn't later reball them at all or that the problems arose when you tried to reball the dough balls once after forming, or maybe twice? Also, what hydration values were you using?

Peter

Peter,

What I meant was I had been trying for a couple of weeks reballing the dough balls after I had balled them once. The first week that worked out okay for the one batch I tried it on.  Then 2 weeks ago I did reball all of my batches of dough balls.  I did the reball right after I had all the dough balls from one batch balled once.  That is when the problem arose. I donít know why 2 weeks ago I then was having problems with opening the dough balls.  That didnít happen before.  That is why I went back to just balling the dough normally.

I donít know what hydration I am using, but I am adding 3.60 lbs of water to a 15 lb. batch.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on April 29, 2011, 11:04:15 PM
Norma,

If the 3.6 pounds of water is added to the final mix, without changing anything else, then I estimate that the total formula hydration is a bit over 63%. It may be that you are on the cusp where the results can go one way or the other without warning. Maybe you have to go to considerably higher hydration before you can be sure of getting the results you are looking for when resorting to reballing.

Peter
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 29, 2011, 11:26:41 PM
Norma,

If the 3.6 pounds of water is added to the final mix, without changing anything else, then I estimate that the total formula hydration is a bit over 63%. It may be that you are on the cusp where the results can go one way or the other without warning. Maybe you have to go to considerably higher hydration before you can be sure of getting the results you are looking for when resorting to reballing.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for telling me about what you think the hydration is I am using now.  I am not going to fool around with the reball anymore, because I didnít like the way that dough behaved.  It kept wanting to stretch back and not open right.  The week I had the most problems was a week that the temperature at market was really warm when I was mixing, balling, and reballing the dough.  I donít know if that was part of the problem or not, but the dough balls wanted to really ferment too fast when letting them warm-up.  I had better luck just taking them out of the cooler or deli case and opening them.

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 29, 2011, 11:31:05 PM
Well, tonight was one of those pizza making nights that everything seems to go wrong.  :-D I had wanted to try out my steel pan to bake a pizza on that I had purchased last Saturday.  I hadnít thought of measuring the steel pan, before I defrosted one frozen dough ball.  When I went to place the steel pan in the oven it was 1 Ĺ inches to big for the oven.  I tried every which way to place it in the oven, with no luck.  I then was thinking of some other way to try out the defrosted dough ball.  I decided to try a combination of my pizza stone and another steel pan I have.  I placed the pizza stone on the middle rack and put the steel pan on the top rack, just to see what would happen.  I let the oven heat for over an hour and even had the broiler on some of the time.  I donít know what was going on with that combination of pizza stone and steel pan, but this was the longest bake of a pizza in my home oven.  This pizza took over 11 minutes to bake.  That is a long time.  I also tried something else I hadnít tried before with this pizza.  I loaded the pie into the oven with my metal peel.  That almost was a disaster.  The pie almost slid onto the oven rack instead of the pizza stone. 

The pizza was dressed with my regular tomato sauce, my regular blend of mozzarella cheeses, EL Abuelto mozzarella cheese and Dietz &Watson pepperoni.  The pizza was okay, but not like I would have like it to be.

Pictures below

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 29, 2011, 11:32:29 PM
end of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 14, 2011, 10:48:17 PM
I know I try the craziest stuff sometimes, but when I went to market yesterday to make my poolish for the preferment Lehmann dough and also do some cleaning, I found a leftover dough ball that must have been pushed back in my pizza prep refrigerator, from Tuesday. The dough ball really smelled like alcohol. I always turn the pizza prep refrigerator off before I go home from market to save on the electric bill.  I also always open the door on the bottom and the lid on top of the pizza prep refrigerator so it doesnít get moldy.  When I went to clean in the inside of the bottom of the fridge, I found this sad looking dough ball.  It looked like it had really overfermented.  At first, I was going to throw it out, but thought I would do an experiment on it.  

I opened the plastic bag and put some IDY on the flattened dough ball, then did reballing with a little flour.  I then took the dough ball along into Lancaster.  It sat out for about 2 hrs.  I then reballed again after I returned home with a little more flour.  This morning, I did another reball, and the dough looked like it was okay. I floured the outside of the dough ball.  After I finished making another pizza today I thought I might as well use this dough ball and see if it could be baked into bread. I donít have any useful things to score bread with so I just used a little Exacto knife.  I also got my steam cleaner out to try and steam the dough.  I donít have any regular bread making equipment, but just used a Pyrex mixing bowl to place over the dough on the heated pizza stone.  I lifted the glass Pyrex bowl about 5 times and really steamed the dough ball.  That was about in a 15 minute time frame.  I then let the dough ball keep baking on the pizza stone, until the middle of the bread measured about 210 degrees F on my thermometer.  I was surprised that the old sad looking overfermented preferment Lehmann dough ball did turn into bread. What really surprised me is how good this bread tasted and there wasnít even any sour taste in the bread.  ;D

Pictures below

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 14, 2011, 10:53:46 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 14, 2011, 10:55:14 PM
end of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 18, 2011, 08:39:59 AM
A few pictures of the preferment Lehmann dough pies, made though the course of yesterday.  As can be seen, the pizza looks can change, depending on the time of day, how long the pie is in the oven, how the dough is opened, and many other factors.  I still believe each pie has its own ďfinger printĒ even though it came from the same dough batch, depending on many factors.

I personally like the darker rim pies, but my customers are more used to a lighter rims.  Even though there is a darker rim, the bottom of the crust wasn't burnt.  The picture of the pie with the darker rim was just left in the oven a little longer.

Pictures below

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: Jackie Tran on May 18, 2011, 06:33:32 PM
Norma, I like the darker rim pies as well.  The last one you posted looks outstanding!  Did you taste a slice of that pie and how was it?
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 18, 2011, 09:43:38 PM
Norma, I like the darker rim pies as well.  The last one you posted looks outstanding!  Did you taste a slice of that pie and how was it?


Chau,

Thanks for saying you like the darker pie!  I didnít taste a slice of that pie, but would like my pies darker like that pie, but most customers prefer lighter crust pies.  If there are two pies, one a little darker and one light, most customers would choose the lighter pie.  My guess is that most customers are used to NY style pies that do have lighter rims.  Even most pizza businesses near me have lighter rims.  I canít think of a single pizza business near me that has darker rims.  When it comes to bubbles in the rim, some customers like the bubbles and some donít..lol

I should have taken bottom shot pictures of those pies, but didnít.  The bottom picture was a pizza just baked about Ĺ minute longer. 

Norma
Title: Re: Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 25, 2011, 08:43:18 PM
This is something that has been bugging me for awhile.  The other time I thought I was having trouble with my poolish for the preferment Lehmann dough, I was thinking it might be the flour, that was making the poolish act differently. I noted the poolish at Reply 643 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg112876.html#msg112876 and the browner crust pizzas and the poolish acting differently at Reply 623  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg112128.html#msg112128 I never figured out why the poolish did act like it did (with a liquid layer on the bottom).  The only thing I noticed from using that poolish, was my crusts seemed to brown better.  Well, Friday when I went to clean and make my poolish at market, it was warmer and I was busy cleaning, stocking sodas, putting pizza boxes together, etc. and doing things, I normally do on Fridays.  I normally keep my Hatco Unit at about 120 degrees F, for the poolish to ferment.  It usually takes anywhere around 1 hour or a little more, for the poolish to start to bubble a little, before I put it in the deli case to ferment more, until I use it to make the final dough on Monday. Sometimes if the flour is colder, it can take a little longer, for the poolish to ferment.  I was busy cleaning and doing the other stuff, and almost forgot about the poolish fermenting in the Hatco Unit.  I was at market about a little over 2 Ĺ hours.  When I took the poolish out of the Hatco Unit, I saw the poolish had fermented more (with bigger bubbles, than normal) and I thought, I hope the poolish lasts until Monday.  The poolish did last until Monday and looked about the same as usual, but had more big bubbles. There was no liquid on the bottom of the containers. I am timing my doughs, when using the Hobart mixer for the last few weeks, and the final dough seemed the same in every way.  When I went to start making pizzas Tuesday