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Offline EvanFitz96

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Napoletana questions
« on: November 18, 2022, 08:09:48 AM »
Total recipe per kg flour:

1000g 00 (Anna Napoletana 13.3% protein) flour
700g water [70%]
20g salt [2%]
1g IDY or 2g ADY [1-2%]
Dash honey
Dash oil

I use 25% (250g flour, 175g water, 1g IDY or 2g ADY) of the flour and water, a dash of honey, and all of my yeast in my (biga? *1*) 70% hydration starter (not including the little dash of honey in hydration)
RT 12 hr

The remaining 75% of my flour and water 750g flour and 525g water is reserved for autolysis, which I have also left out 12hr RT (is that too long? *2*)

I then add the salt and knead for 8 min, rest for 3, smooth the ball (since I autolysed, is that too long? *3*) and bulk RT for 1-2 hr, ball then CT for atleast 48hr

I once tried RT proving balls for an hour but over proved within 6 hours of being in the fridge and re-balled them while they were still cold. (Did I 'tear' the gluten structure? *4*)

Is it more worth it to eliminate the starter and autolyse and go direct, with a 1-2 bulk RT and (48hr CT ball ferment)? *5*
^ very light oil in tupperware to be able to remove, if I had dough trays (which I will) I will be able to eliminate oil entirely.

If you didn't notice, each question is enumerated for asterisks (*#*).  I don't expect anyone to answer any or all of them, but I am confident this is the best forum for this. #firstpost

PS, separating the starter and autolyse, both at the same consistency (hydration) seems it could help, along with the flavor profiles of the starter.  However, is this something that is more beneficial to bread than Napoletana pizza? *6*

###

Offline Yael

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Re: Napoletana questions
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2022, 07:52:46 AM »
Hi!

1) biga is dry, 50% water (of the biga flour amount) or even less.

2) There's no rule about it, just if you like the result or not.

3) same, and it depends on other factors (like the flour, but in your case, 13.3% protein is quite high so that could be ok; an other factor being the FDT).

4) re-balling often happens there's no big deal, however the 3 main issues it can lead to are:
- too much elasticity from using it too soon;
- some "nerves" and thin spots (gluten network uneven)
- lack of coloration as yeast already ate most of the sugar

5) really depends on what you want/like/prefer... AFAIK in theory, preferments were used to ferment quicker, so we could kind of get a similar result with a preferment + let's say same day dough (or even 24H CF) and a 72H CF dough (flavor-wise) (meaning you might be able to get a nice flavor with a long CF, or a preferment could help you reproduce it in a shorter time, BUT of course both dough management give different results).

Maybe others can also chime in  :chef:
“Learn the rules like a pro so you can break them like an artist” - Pablo Picasso

Offline EvanFitz96

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Re: Napoletana questions
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2022, 10:28:37 AM »
Hi!

1) biga is dry, 50% water (of the biga flour amount) or even less.

2) There's no rule about it, just if you like the result or not.

3) same, and it depends on other factors (like the flour, but in your case, 13.3% protein is quite high so that could be ok; an other factor being the FDT).

4) re-balling often happens there's no big deal, however the 3 main issues it can lead to are:
- too much elasticity from using it too soon;
- some "nerves" and thin spots (gluten network uneven)
- lack of coloration as yeast already ate most of the sugar

5) really depends on what you want/like/prefer... AFAIK in theory, preferments were used to ferment quicker, so we could kind of get a similar result with a preferment + let's say same day dough (or even 24H CF) and a 72H CF dough (flavor-wise) (meaning you might be able to get a nice flavor with a long CF, or a preferment could help you reproduce it in a shorter time, BUT of course both dough management give different results).

Maybe others can also chime in  :chef:

1) I never knew biga was 50% or less, I thought it was 50%-99% until it became a poolish at 100% or higher.  It also does include all of my yeast so I wasn't sure if it also could be a sponge by definition, but I believe a sponge is strictly 100% hydration.  So could a poolish be 51%-200%+?  Or is there any other name for a 70% hydration preferment?

2) I am a strong believer of having rules, but it being important to break them at times.  I just avoid doing a CT autolyse without returning it to RT before mixing by hand as I've had problems with mixing items that are different temps, and am now aware that there is a possibility of tearing the gluten network I worked so hard to build when working a cold autolyse.

3) Everything used is RT, so the FDT should be close to the same, however, I am using slap and folds that could slighty raise that.

4) On the factor of reballing cold dough, I now have used those doughs, I think I did somewhat tear some of that gluten because when stretching (10+ years experience professionally stretching dough) it didnt stretch as well [more elastic, 12" in my hands turned to 8-9" on table, but that batch did have a little too much salt by accident (3.5% as apposed to my usual 2-3%), but your mention of using it soon makes sense too, it was about 45-60 degrees F as apposed to 75 degrees F which would be the RT I mention] as without reballing cold doughs, but still made fantastic pizzas.

5) So a starter not only helps speed up fermentation but brings a similar flavor of a longer CF?  Very interesting.

Thank you so much for your educated reply!

Offline Yael

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Re: Napoletana questions
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2022, 07:44:24 PM »
No problem, you're welcome!

So the biga is 50% hydration (and they tend to lower that, 45% maybe even less, not sure), and the poolish 100%. There wouldn't be any use of making 200% hydration poolish because that would mean that there is just a little bit of flour.
Between 50% and 100% hydration, you could go any number you like. I think I read on the forum that a sponge has a definite hydration as well, but as we have a definite biga on the left with 50% water and a definite poolish on the right with 100% water, I like to call any hydration's preferment in between a sponge. I mean "sponge" right, not a very magical word  :-D

I wrote:
Quote
you could go any number you like
Just keep in mind that a preferment shouldn't be a kneaded dough (biga is roughly mixed and poolish is too wet to have a gluten structure), otherwise the gluten can break during the final mixing. If you decide to make a preferment with let's say 60% hydration, you're more likely to get a "normal" dough and that could be a problem.

2) I am a strong believer of having rules, but it being important to break them at times.  I just avoid doing a CT autolyse without returning it to RT before mixing by hand as I've had problems with mixing items that are different temps, and am now aware that there is a possibility of tearing the gluten network I worked so hard to build when working a cold autolyse.

During summer when I use autolyse for my high hydration dough I HAVE TO put it in the fridge so my FDT isn't too high. I never experience the problem you're describing  :-\ But anyway, when I said "no rules about it", I was mostly mentioning the duration: 12H, 6H, 2H... But, as I mentioned recently in an other post (https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=34355):
Quote
A long time ago I read some article from Jeff Varasano, he was talking about autolyse and said that there didn't seem to have differences from 20 min and more. Of course, the longer the autolyse the more enzyme activity in the dough (which eventually might impact flavor and texture, like Pete'zza's test without yeast, that I made here: https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=67433.0).

5) So a starter not only helps speed up fermentation but brings a similar flavor of a longer CF?  Very interesting.
I mean, it's still different, but the idea is to speed up fermentation as you say an also "speed up" flavor.
“Learn the rules like a pro so you can break them like an artist” - Pablo Picasso

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