Pizza Making Forum

General Topics => Shop Talk => Topic started by: thezaman on July 02, 2009, 05:22:39 PM

Title: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: thezaman on July 02, 2009, 05:22:39 PM
 Looking at getting training and doing a Neapolitan style pizzeria within the next two years .I am looking at training with a Neapolitan  pizza maker and have an idea of that cost.I just don't have any idea of what i need to budget for the oven .
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: widespreadpizza on July 02, 2009, 06:36:55 PM
Zaman,  part of that depends on the exchange rate,  port and size of oven,  but plan on 10-15K  if you are loooking at marcos ovens of choice, forno napolentano.  I want one too!  -marc
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: thezaman on July 02, 2009, 10:18:04 PM
I am looking at one to two years down the road.There is so much to learn about true Neapolitan pizza.I have been to IL pizzaiolo in pittsburgh twice and crave his product.I know he has many years of knowledge and that is why his product is so darn good.I am trying to put together a business plan and gaining as much product knowledge as possible.
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: shango on July 02, 2009, 10:59:32 PM
There are many variables to consider. Plan on the most expensive American product, and hope it comes in less...
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: Mo on July 07, 2009, 07:06:48 PM
Mugnaini and forno bravos both run about $11,000 for a 120 cm oven. Woodstone is about $17,000 for a similar size and is not a great wood only performer. I talked to Marco about his ovens but never got around to cost. Mugnaini imports the Valoriani ovens which are used successfully in many commercial Neapolitan applications. Check the websites of mugnaini and forno bravo, they have commercial oven prices listed...
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: David on July 07, 2009, 09:13:11 PM
Mugnaini imports the Valoriani ovens which are used successfully in many commercial Neapolitan applications.

"true Neapolitan" pizza ovens have a low dome,are hand built with very specific materials and should not be confused with other modular fabricated / mass produced wood burning ovens.If you need a benchmark example,the oven at Spaccanapoli in Chicago is probably the finest (and most beautiful ) one I've had the chance to experience in the USA.The only person I know that has first hand experience of cooking with nearly all of the Neapolitan oven builders represented in the USA is Roberto @ Keste in New York,he's likely the one best to give an un-biased opinion as I know he has himself purchased and used so many.Good luck,
David
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: Mo on July 07, 2009, 09:38:10 PM
"true Neapolitan" pizza ovens have a low dome,are hand built with very specific materials and should not be confused with other modular fabricated / mass produced wood burning ovens.If you need a benchmark example,the oven at Spaccanapoli in Chicago is probably the finest (and most beautiful ) one I've had the chance to experience in the USA.The only person I know that has first hand experience of cooking with nearly all of the Neapolitan oven builders represented in the USA is Roberto @ Keste in New York,he's likely the one best to give an un-biased opinion as I know he has himself purchased and used so many.Good luck,
David

I'm sure one could debate the phrase "true Neapolitan" oven for some time with no objective conclusion. Suffice to say, for a commercial "Neapolitan-style" application the manufacturers/importers I've mentioned are more than adequate and have been approved by VPN in many establishments in the US. Personally, I think it a bit dogmatic and myopic to dismiss equipment that has been used to produce "authentic" Neapolitan style pizza  for some time in this country. One must draw the "authenticity" line somwhere. For example, if we are in this country we are not in Naples. Nor is everyone that produces Neapolitan pizza a Neapolitan by birth, heritage or citizenship. Surely we can agree that claims to authenticity are highly subjective and in and of themselves, don't do much to further the discussion of how to make great pizza.
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: David on July 07, 2009, 11:49:37 PM
To be honest, most of our patrons were happy with what we've been doing up to this point, and haven't noticed or commented on a difference. I think the distinctions I have been making here have gone largely unnoticed. Having said that, all of our guests have been very positive about our efforts and have enjoyed the addition of a wood-fired pizza oven to their club. To us bunch of enthusiasts, the results might look quite different, but not necessarily so for the untrained eye. We have had good success using upscale ingredients and thoughtful methods to try and recreate an authentic-seeming experience.

Sorry if I misinterpreted the heading of this thread .I was not dismissing any ovens for pizza making,merely pointing out some of the critical differences with what many consider to be a true Neapolitan oven.I'm sure you would also equally debate Neapolitan pizza / Neapolitan style pizza.If I go shopping for a Harley Davidson and a salesman tells me the Yamaha is practically the same,I feel more comfortable knowing the differences for myself and with such an important investment why I should chose one over another.From reading your other comments It is clear that we obviously draw our lines at different points and you are seemingly satisfied with the outcome.There is nothing wrong with compromise as long as you understand why you are making it and your customers are not misled in any way.To be honest, most of your patrons might not have a clue as to what you've been doing up to this point,but I'm sure that as a professional you wouldn't let your standards diminish because they haven't noticed or commented?
Maybe frozen dough in a gas assisted oven is the way to go and I've just been banging my head against the wall for twenty years.

Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: scpizza on July 08, 2009, 08:41:51 AM
Note however, the oven itself is not the only cost to going woodburning.  External venting, if not in a 1-story building, will cost more than the oven.  Upgrading the floor support beams if the existing floor can't handle the weight will cost more than the oven.
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: Mo on July 08, 2009, 10:04:28 AM
Sorry if I misinterpreted the heading of this thread .I was not dismissing any ovens for pizza making,merely pointing out some of the critical differences with what many consider to be a true Neapolitan oven.I'm sure you would also equally debate Neapolitan pizza / Neapolitan style pizza.If I go shopping for a Harley Davidson and a salesman tells me the Yamaha is practically the same,I feel more comfortable knowing the differences for myself and with such an important investment why I should chose one over another.From reading your other comments It is clear that we obviously draw our lines at different points and you are seemingly satisfied with the outcome.There is nothing wrong with compromise as long as you understand why you are making it and your customers are not misled in any way.To be honest, most of your patrons might not have a clue as to what you've been doing up to this point,but I'm sure that as a professional you wouldn't let your standards diminish because they haven't noticed or commented?
Maybe frozen dough in a gas assisted oven is the way to go and I've just been banging my head against the wall for twenty years.



I apologize if I responded a bit harshly, admittedly I know little (about pizza or else). However, I would very much like to know the technical differences between Mugnaini Modena model and another "true neapolitan" oven. All I seem to hear from different people are marketing buzz words like "mass-produced" and "beware of imitators". These phrases do not point to tangible technical differences. If you could elucidate these distinctions, I would be grateful. Again, if the VPN has verified establishments with these ovens, is that good enough to claim authenticity or is the VPN too, suspect?

As far as Harley vs Yamaha, a better analogy might have been "I want a classic big-bore V-twin touring cycle", then you would have to decide what constitutes "classic", "V twin" and "touring". A Harley is manufactured by Harley, Yamaha by Yamaha, a relatively simple distinction to make. Personally, I prefer
70s SOHC Hondas, but that's a different discussion...




Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: David on July 08, 2009, 10:14:23 AM
It's been hashed out in previous threads,but the way it vents/draws,materials ,balance.fuel efficiency,recovery,dimensions etc are all points that should be considered.I was over simplistic with my analogy.I expect you'll make up your own mind about VPN and it's strengths and weaknesses as you learn more I presume.
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: Mo on July 08, 2009, 01:43:02 PM
It's been hashed out in previous threads,but the way it vents/draws,materials ,balance.fuel efficiency,recovery,dimensions etc are all points that should be considered.I was over simplistic with my analogy.I expect you'll make up your own mind about VPN and it's strengths and weaknesses as you learn more I presume.

I don't understand this response. You are apparently willing to look up a three month old post of mine to quote but you won't give a detailed answer to a specific question? I am starting to believe that some enthusiasts on this board are more concerned with appearing to be "in the know" than actually helping people by providing solid information culled from experience and knowledge. I am not implying that you don't have the experience to back you statements (although you seem to try to question mine) but how about some actual analysis? I'm not trying to be divisive or confrontational but you've yet to say why the Mugnaini or Forno Bravo ovens are inferior but continue to imply that they are.   
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: pcampbell on July 08, 2009, 02:41:16 PM
If the goal is VPN certification OK, they can require whatever they want.  The OP said a "true Neapolitan oven" so maybe certification is desired.

I don't think it takes Italian materials or an Italian to build a great wood fired oven.  Whether any of the commercially available ovens do this, I don't know.  I think there's a lot of factors from dome height, diameter, dome ceiling thickness, floor thickness, amount of insulation.  If you get all of that right...

It is no different than saying it doesn't take Ernesto Colnago to build an amazing bicycle......  sure it will never be a Colnago, but it could outperform one.  Same thing goes with Ferrari.  Ducati.  etc.
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: David on July 08, 2009, 09:56:37 PM
I don't understand this response. You are apparently willing to look up a three month old post of mine to quote but you won't give a detailed answer to a specific question?
I don't spend nearly as much time on the forum as I once did so am not familiar with you or your posting history.To get a better insight of your questions,I took the trouble to quickly read your past posts.
I see no point in duplicating information and cluttering the boards.If you take the time to do some searches within the limited parameters of wood fired ovens on this this forum alone,you will be amazed at how much you can garner.I really do not comprehend how you read my comments again as being dismissive,when I was merely pointing out some points to consider when choosing or comparing various wood burning ovens to specifically a Neapolitan wood burning oven.
Again,I'm trying to follow the original header in this thread.AFAIK a "True Neapolitan Oven" uses mostly materials not readily available in this country (with the possible exception of Tufa block?) I don't doubt that the skills needed to build one could eventually be acquired by anyone if they were so inclined,regardless of nationality.I make pizza and I'm not Italian.

At what point did I question your experience?

I'm sure one could debate the phrase "true Neapolitan" oven for some time with no objective conclusion. Suffice to say, for a commercial "Neapolitan-style" application the manufacturers/importers I've mentioned are more than adequate and have been approved by VPN in many establishments in the US. Personally, I think it a bit dogmatic and myopic to dismiss equipment that has been used to produce "authentic" Neapolitan style pizza  for some time in this country. One must draw the "authenticity" line somwhere. For example, if we are in this country we are not in Naples. Nor is everyone that produces Neapolitan pizza a Neapolitan by birth, heritage or citizenship. Surely we can agree that claims to authenticity are highly subjective and in and of themselves, don't do much to further the discussion of how to make great pizza.

I assume that this was derived from your experience?You sound thoroughly confident and convinced with your point of view Mo.
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: Mo on July 08, 2009, 11:07:27 PM
David, I only took issue with your implication that Mugnaini ovens are not "true Neapolitan ovens" without providing some reasons why. I have read endless posts and talked to several companies (including forno napoletano) and I am still baffled by some of the distinctions being made. Perhaps this is due to my ignorance. I have use a wood only woodstone and would not recommend it for high temp Neapolitan style pizzas. My direct experience with wood burning oven is limited to the woodstone. I continually worked it above recommnded temps to get the result I was looking for. I am buying a Mugnaini oven for a commercial application and am excited about the prospect. While there is some technical data offered when comparing ovens/companies, I find a lot of what has been offered on this site is no more than individual opinion and subjective, dubious claims to authenticity (the "true" keepers of the faith, if you will).

If the OP wants the same oven as Il pizzaillo, then he should get it. If the OP wants pricing for Italianade wood burning pizza ovens then my original answer stands. If the OP (if he is still listening) wants to clarify his aims ("true Neapolitan oven") then I am listening.   
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: JConk007 on July 08, 2009, 11:15:41 PM
Wow , intersting thread. Now I want a Harley  ;) I like the $10-15,000 answer better. I have a mass produced kit oven earthstone (very satisfied with the results) that I make true VPN pizzas in, is it a true Neapolitan oven? I Dont really know or care.  I do know what that style I chose cost me to build . see my pics? The  grand total no more than $5000.00 complete (and some serious sweat time) I was quoted around $15,000 thats why I chose to attack it myself. This oven is for personal use. In a commercial setting these ovens are forced to run at extreme temperatures for extended amount of time and on a dialy basis Honestly I dont know the lifespan or true capabilities. Maybe PMQ has a thread for commercial woodfired ovens where they are not just opinions but real facts? I am here for the passion and fun of it only at this time.  I do know Bill /sfnm has the same oven for 7 years? burning 5 times a week ? right Bill? However After being on these board for a while I know that If money was no object I would have Marco build me a "true neapolitan" beauty or something like the baby bruno that was posted With my very limited knowledge thats a true neapolitan ovenhttp://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8340.msg76354.html#msg76354 maybe he could share a dollar figure with us?
Just my 2 pennies.
JOHN
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: Bill/SFNM on July 08, 2009, 11:52:49 PM
I do know Bill /sfnm has the same oven for 7 years? burning 5 times a week ? right Bill?

Maybe twice per week average over 7 years. I agree with your comments, John. Couldn't be happier with my Earthstone which produces great Neapolitan-style pies in a non-commercial setting even though it is not an authentic Neapolitan oven. But I have never used any other oven, so I have no basis for saying it might be better than some other. If I were building today, I would probably go with Marco's authentic oven if I could swing the cost. Or maybe I would try to get pftaylor to sell me the kit he designed which is the anti-authentic oven.

Bill/SFNM

Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: PETE on July 11, 2009, 04:40:22 AM
Bill, I agree with you (sorry I don't post that much, been a viewer for many years), I have worked with a couple of Fabricated Northern Italian ovens, and they are not even close to true Neopoltian ovens, as far as Marco's co. even Stefano Ferrara in Naples has no idea what special family makes his oven, and their family has been making ovens for close to 100 years.  Marco contacted Ferrara a couple of years ago and wanted to represent their ovens, but things feel thru, and ever since he has been bad mouthing their ovens. I recently purchased an S.F. Allestimenti (and even Antimo Caputo raves about their ovens, I met him at the Las Vegas Pizza Expo), and I could not be happier with the service.  Francesa (Stefano's wife), is the nicest lady in the world, and their ovens speak for themselves.  I am curently in the process of opening a Naples style pizzeria in S. Cal (we have really bad pizza here), so the oven and my Pietroberto diving hands mixer are on the way.  And I probably shouldn't even tell anyone, but this forum is the best knowledge of pizza info:  Stefano Ferra Mobile ovens are now UL CERTIFIED in the U.S. ( I have been waiting for the last year). p.s. don't tell anyone.  here is a pic of my baby BRUNO.
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: thezaman on July 11, 2009, 10:18:44 AM
I am looking at this post with a lot of  interest and i  didn't realize i started it . I have looked into both forno  bravo and magnaini neither have a vpn oven.  magnaini claims they are close to an agreement with the vpn group out of California .I have two options I can do an outdoor oven at my existing  restaurant or, do a true Neapolitan pizza restaurant in a free standing location.If i do an outdoor oven i will be happy with either of the above since it will be used for Neapolitan night once or twice a week.  the only dimensions i want are the oven dome to floor to be correct for pizza cooking. magniani claims to have the Neapolitan pizza dimensions needed. Now this is based on my home cooking so all of you that have been at this longer than me help with my observations.  I have a hard time getting the pizza toppings and top crust cooked before my bottom get over charred.If i get my deck to 750 degrees my pizza cooks in under 2 minutes and the bake is even. if i try to get the deck to 850 or higher the bottom burns before my top is baked enough.I think that is because the oven doesn't have the right dome height to bake pizza evenly.  i noticed the smoke layer you see in a true Neapolitan oven is maybe 6 inches above the pizza ,in my oven it may be 10 or more inches.My theory is that the low dome of the Neapolitan allows the high temperature fast cooking times that the Neapolitan pizza is know for.So, is my thinking as a new Neapolitan lover correct or is my off base?Thanks to every one on the forum for there help this is an amazing board ,if you follow some these threads you are learning from very knowledgeable professionals.
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: Bill/SFNM on July 11, 2009, 11:07:37 AM
My theory is that the low dome of the Neapolitan allows the high temperature fast cooking times that the Neapolitan pizza is know for.So, is my thinking as a new Neapolitan lover correct or is my off base?Thanks to every one on the forum for there help this is an amazing board ,if you follow some these threads you are learning from very knowledgeable professionals.

I would say based on my experience as an enthusiastic amateur that the distance between the deck and the dome is just one of many variables. The distribution of heat - convective, radiant, and conductive - needs to be balanced just right so that all parts of the pie reach perfection at the same time. The window of perfection in such high temps is very small and changes constantly, so along with having the "right" oven, the amount of experience required to put out a great product can not be under estimated. So regardless of what oven you acquire, expect to invest the dedication required to get the most out of it. I'll bet someone like Marco could produce a better pizza from a toaster than many of us could make in one of his ovens.

I do not have a "low dome" so I simply raise the pie to the top of the dome for a few seconds before removing it from the oven. This is easy and effective for my modest home efforts. Perhaps it isn't so convenient in a commercial, high-volume setting even though I have seen it done there.

Bill/SFNM

Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: thezaman on July 11, 2009, 11:26:40 AM
Thank for your reply,I need a lot of work on my pizza and am thankful that there are so many people with experience to help with problems . I am going to attend a vpn school either in new york Keste'  or in California to get all of the pizza essentials down ,then work on becoming good at the needed expertise .My pizzeria is in Oberlin ohio and our pizza is based on Cleveland tradition, which is a cooked sauce,a rich french bread dough and provolone cheese as the cheese of choice.  So you can see that the neo pie in far from what i am use to making. But the challenge has made the pizza business fun again.
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: scott r on July 11, 2009, 03:54:34 PM
bill, I just wanted to chime in that in Naples I saw them lifting the pie at the end in just about every pizzeria....I know roberto does it at Keste even in his neapolitan ovens and sub minute bakes.   I think you might need to do it a bit longer to get some cooking done, where most neapolitan pizzerias do it more to get some smoke flavor on the pie.

zaman, you are close to pittsburgh, you should definitely go to Il Pizzaiolo.   Ron has traveled a similar path as you, but is about 10 years ahead.  He is amazing and will most likely inspire and help you.

Good luck!
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: Mo on July 11, 2009, 05:24:28 PM
I am looking at this post with a lot of  interest and i  didn't realize i started it . I have looked into both forno  bravo and magnaini neither have a vpn oven.  magnaini claims they are close to an agreement with the vpn group out of California .I have two options I can do an outdoor oven at my existing  restaurant or, do a true Neapolitan pizza restaurant in a free standing location.If i do an outdoor oven i will be happy with either of the above since it will be used for Neapolitan night once or twice a week.  the only dimensions i want are the oven dome to floor to be correct for pizza cooking. magniani claims to have the Neapolitan pizza dimensions needed. Now this is based on my home cooking so all of you that have been at this longer than me help with my observations.  I have a hard time getting the pizza toppings and top crust cooked before my bottom get over charred.If i get my deck to 750 degrees my pizza cooks in under 2 minutes and the bake is even. if i try to get the deck to 850 or higher the bottom burns before my top is baked enough.I think that is because the oven doesn't have the right dome height to bake pizza evenly.  i noticed the smoke layer you see in a true Neapolitan oven is maybe 6 inches above the pizza ,in my oven it may be 10 or more inches.My theory is that the low dome of the Neapolitan allows the high temperature fast cooking times that the Neapolitan pizza is know for.So, is my thinking as a new Neapolitan lover correct or is my off base?Thanks to every one on the forum for there help this is an amazing board ,if you follow some these threads you are learning from very knowledgeable professionals.

I can't speak to wheather or not VPN has approved outright Mugnaini ovens but I do know that their ovens are in several Twin Cities VPN approved establishments. So for whatever it's worth, Valoriani/Mugnaini ovens have been approved by VPN in terms of concept/execution within specific restaurants. There's even a VPN approved place with a Woodstone oven. For VPN, it's about more than the oven. Ingredients and technique are just as important.

Can someone post a link for the Ferrara and other "true Neapolitan pizza ovens" so that we can compare specs? I would still like to be able to pinpoint some concrete, technical distinctions. I think this would be useful for furthering this technical discussion.
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: thezaman on July 11, 2009, 05:44:59 PM
Well that is great information, i thought the oven was only to be of italian design with certain specs. I didn't realize that there were vpn approved pizzerias using the above mentioned ovens!!
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: Mo on July 26, 2009, 09:30:56 AM
Well that is great information, i thought the oven was only to be of italian design with certain specs. I didn't realize that there were vpn approved pizzerias using the above mentioned ovens!!


Well, zaman, what's the update? Any news to report in your search for an oven??

Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: thezaman on August 06, 2009, 06:58:15 PM
 I have talked to a couple of manufactures and a pre built oven would only fit in my building by  removing a window ,which is possible .  i don't know if i want to invest 7000 euros plus shipping yet. i may do a non Neapolitan oven and promote wood fired organics instead. my restaurant is in a college town and my college customer count is not that good. Next week 8/12-8/15 i am going to take a vpn class after that i will decide which direction to go. later i will list the oven companies i have talked with, and hopefully some forum feed back. thanks
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: Mo on August 07, 2009, 11:36:07 PM
I have talked to a couple of manufactures and a pre built oven would only fit in my building by  removing a window ,which is possible .  i don't know if i want to invest 7000 euros plus shipping yet. i may do a non Neapolitan oven and promote wood fired organics instead. my restaurant is in a college town and my college customer count is not that good. Next week 8/12-8/15 i am going to take a vpn class after that i will decide which direction to go. later i will list the oven companies i have talked with, and hopefully some forum feed back. thanks

I know a couple of the American distributors of Italian ovens offer the possibility of a partially disassembled oven being walked in through the front door and being reassembled by a tech guy that works with the company you buy from. It will cost you around $750 plus a plane ticket to go this route but may be cheaper than removing windows and renting fork trucks, cranes, helicopters or other such heavy machinery...
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: pcampbell on August 08, 2009, 09:01:50 AM
10,000 bucks isn't that much for an oven!

Fornobravo modulars are around 7k,but then you need to build the facade, etc.

What are the requirements for a VPN oven?  I don't think that it actually requires an Italian oven or italian man to make the oven.  Pretty sure it just needs to cook the pizzas in 90 seconds and burn wood. 

If i were doing this, I'd think hard about building an oven from scratch if it is feasible.  This way you pay the least (probably) and get the pride of building your own unique oven and get bragging rights :)  You can also built it with a lower dome than most commercial modular ovens or pre-fabbed ovens will give you.
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: Mo on August 09, 2009, 10:17:56 AM

If i were doing this, I'd think hard about building an oven from scratch if it is feasible.  This way you pay the least (probably) and get the pride of building your own unique oven and get bragging rights :)  You can also built it with a lower dome than most commercial modular ovens or pre-fabbed ovens will give you.


Good luck getting a permit and through inspections with a "backyard special". For commercial application you need to concern yourself not only with building and mechanical codes but food safety codes as well (unless you apply for and are awarded your own NSF or ETL certification and good luck with that)...Even with commercial ovens with all of the proper UL, NSF and ETL listings, you will face a fight trying to get one of these ovens installed without an indirect vent-Type 1 hood system being required, which easily adds another $6,000-10,000 to the cost. Venting these ovens is a huge deal in a commercial application. Grease ducts, exhaust fans, direct fire suppression (Ansul, Piranha, etc) and additional HVAC capacity (makeup air units, etc) start to add up real quick.


Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: pcampbell on August 09, 2009, 10:34:54 AM
You do not necessarily need any of those certifications.  Same with Type I hood.  Could be just a class A chimney.

What are the certifications of the various handmade site built Italian ovens?  I don't know what  or if they have any certifications.

A lot of this is just going to come down to the jurisdiction.... "You can't fight city hall".  Some are more strict than others.

A lot of them are quick to deny things they do not understand also.
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: Mo on August 09, 2009, 12:55:39 PM
You do not necessarily need any of those certifications.  Same with Type I hood.  Could be just a class A chimney.

You are wrong. I challenge you to show me a city that will ok a commercial food service oven that has neither UL nor NSF listing. As to the Type 1 hood, it is possible to get around this but, like I said in my post, very difficult to do so. Most cities are working off the latest IMC which states that any cooking appliances that produce grease-laden vapor require a Type-1 hood.

What are the certifications of the various handmade site built Italian ovens?  I don't know what  or if they have any certifications.

They all need some sort of certification. Mugnaini, for instance, have UL listings for both direct and indirect venting and ETL listings. Woodstone is UL and NSF listed. If they want to sell in this country, they need to be listed.

A lot of this is just going to come down to the jurisdiction.... "You can't fight city hall".  Some are more strict than others.

Like I said, most cities base their codes on IMC and just refine where they deem necessary. Usually, the international standards are a benchmark and they just get tougher from there.


A lot of them are quick to deny things they do not understand also.

Most of the city inspection officials I have dealt with were all very informed. It is their job to keep buildings, people, cities etc safe so I usually understand where they are coming from. You run into trouble where the code is insufficiently specific and are faced with individuals making interpretations.
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: pcampbell on August 09, 2009, 04:33:04 PM
Here in NJ (and we are not really a very lax state), pizza is not considered grease laden so type I is never required for pizza.

I have talked to companies who have no certification and never had a problem getting the ovens going.  Dawine in Queens, NY is an example running a non certified pacific brick oven.

I doubt American Flatbread's mud oven is certified.
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: Mo on August 09, 2009, 06:27:11 PM
pcampbell:

I would say then that you are lucky to do business in a city/state that doesn't require the Type 1 hoods. Even direct venting at times requires an exhaust fan and make-up air issues. I was trying to make the OP aware of the potential costs associated with these ovens. Budgeting $12,000 for an oven and finding out it will cost another $12,000 before you can fire it up is a sobering experience.

As for hand-built, brick and mortar ovens, codes must still be satisfied, easier to do in some cities than others. I think the costs of a custom build are of a different order than the pre-assembled. Just the structural loads involved require engineering, possible reinforced slabs/floors, etc.

If it's Pacific Coast Brick ovens you're talking about, they have UL listings. What other companies have you talked to that don't have listings either for the ovens or components?

The point I am trying to make is to go in with eyes open to potential costs. If you are prepared for the worst and end up in the best circumstances, then consider yourself fortunate/genius and move on. If, on the other hand, you've prepared only for the best case scenario and find yourself being dragged down by cities/contractors etc, then you will have to answer for your lack of preparation.
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: thezaman on August 10, 2009, 09:48:41 AM
 in my kitchen area i only have about eight feet square  that i can get an oven into. i do not have an ansel system for my gas kettle or my pizza oven . forno bravo has a series of pizza ovens that can be shipped broken down from italy and assembled on premise. if you know of other companies let me know. my initial talk with the city has been receptive, they just allowed another restaurant a variance to use a wood fired bbq on premise . my biggest concern is that adding another product to my menu is going to add confusion on my busy nights .
 i am leaning towards a mobile oven which then can be used on premise as well as special events. i need to find out what cost variables such as food permits are going to add to an event cost. as you can tell i am all over the place on this idea. any thoughts on the mobil oven, they are around 16000.00 dollars.  i could then do a neapolitan night on my patio during my summer months and sell off premiss events . we also have 4 wineries within 10 miles of us.
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: thezaman on August 16, 2009, 11:48:14 AM
Just returned from the vpn training at antica,i have to say that the information picked up on this forum on the Neapolitan pizza gave me a head start on the learning process. making and cooking multiple pizzas was a real experience. i learned three different stretching techniques which were done in slow motion i will post them tonight.
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: dzpiez on August 16, 2009, 03:04:32 PM
Hey thezaman, how did ya like the VPN training?  I took the 6 day training a year ago and not only did I learn alot, but had so much fun.  Learned alot from Peppe, and Jose is the best.  And you can go to portablebrickpizzaoven.com for a mobile oven, there out of Colorado and us Forno Bravo's ovens on there trailers.
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: thezaman on August 16, 2009, 04:10:30 PM
it was a great learning experience! i never thought  on Wednesday by friday i would be able to bake four pizzas at a time in that oven. but, by friday i felt comfortable cooking . shaping the skins will take a lot of practice, and  to make and bake quickly  is a long learning experience.
  jose is one of the nicest and most dedicated people i have ever met, pepe is lucky to have him. i also meet a lot of wonderful hard working employees ,they never stop . if they are not making a dinning room order they are prepping or cleaning. it was a great experience and the learning curve is a lot faster because of this web site. i was able to learn a lot of non pizza related things that i can use every day at my business. when i get home from work i am going to post  three stretching methods demonstrated by jose.
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: dzpiez on August 17, 2009, 12:13:17 AM
I think I gained about 20 lbs. by the end of the sixth day of the VPN training.  And yep, Jose is the best.  Antica is about 30 minutes away, so I end up going there every now and then to get a bag of Caputo.  And you are right, but the 4th. day you get used to slinging pies in and out of that oven 3 and even 4 at a time.
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: thezaman on August 17, 2009, 12:33:29 AM
here is a video of jose showing three stretching methods , the third one is what he uses when he needs to make pizzas quickly ,you can here the dough stretching from the centrifugal  force http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvbMkOr3zek  (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvbMkOr3zek)
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: dzpiez on August 17, 2009, 12:44:19 AM
Yep, that's Jose. haha  Never can get the third one down, the first two no problemo.  What did ya think of there fork mixer?
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: widespreadpizza on August 17, 2009, 12:48:06 AM
Zaman,  thanks for sharing that video.  They all look like great techniques.  I wonder if they all produce the same pizza.  Also,  I would like you to enlighten us on the dough hydration and fermentation regimen.  thanks -marc
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: thezaman on August 17, 2009, 11:54:21 AM
marc,the third stretching method made the dough even across the bottom .the second method left the rim flatter less airy . the vpn method of putting the back of your right hand next to the right rim then pull the left side with three fingers and rotate the dough a quarter turn is the method they want used. it makes the center thinner and it gets thicker as you get to the raised edge .
   the dough method used 79 deg water, hydration of 60 percent, 15 minute mix with finished temp of 83 to 84 degrees. a one hour  rise in a covered container, cut into 9 oz balls floured bottom of the dough tray placed 8 per tray and covered, then into the cooler which was at  38 degrees . the kitchen was about 87 degrees . the kneading method was different, you place the dough in your hands and your fingers together as if folding them  or cracking your knuckles, then you rotate and it  seals the dough. this also works with the mozzarella.
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: widespreadpizza on August 17, 2009, 12:09:16 PM
Zaman,  thanks very interesting.  How long were the dough balls cold fermented before use?  also do you have any pictures of the finished product?  thanks again.  -marc
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: thezaman on August 17, 2009, 02:17:10 PM
 the dough was from two days maximum to 18 hours minimum . we did get into friday morning dough made at ten am at about 9 pm that night which was room risen for one hour before use . i will send some pics tonight .
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: trelk on August 24, 2009, 08:44:44 PM
thanks for the video.  maybe i have been reading too much peter reinhart but shouldn't one do their best not to pop all those air bubbles in the dough?
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: thezaman on August 26, 2009, 09:26:57 AM
 if you look at some of the video of pizza makers in naples they seem to  stretch the dough  pretty aggressively . then you look at the explanation in the new video that was put up yesterday and he made a point of preserving the air in the dough. we need a explanation by one of the members that does this for a living.
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: jimd on August 26, 2009, 09:36:50 AM
ZaMan, you are right. I am also confused by the new stretching video, as that is the first time I have heard someone indicate that you should keep the fingers spread apart while pressing down so as not to press too much air from the dough. On the new video, the skin resulting from this method appears fully stretched, and my guess is that the difference may be very subtle.

For convenience, I will re-post a link to the new video below.

http://www.myrecipes.com/recipes/local-flavor/video/0,28816,1907779,00.html (http://www.myrecipes.com/recipes/local-flavor/video/0,28816,1907779,00.html)

Jim
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: PETE on September 05, 2009, 02:00:13 AM
BRUNO arrived from Naples in perfect condition.
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: Barry on September 08, 2009, 09:00:43 AM
Hi PETE,

Your BRUNO looks fantastic ! Is it the model that is 1.3 metres in diameter ?

Are there also Wheels ?

Is there a special "burn in" proceedure that you need to follow ?

Kind regards.

Barry
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: PETE on September 08, 2009, 09:02:03 PM
Barry it is the 130 cm model, and if can be ordered with wheels.  The oven must be cured by starting small fires.  An hour after starting the small fire, the fire bricks inside the oven turn jet black due to the moisture, we are currently on the 4th day of curing and the oven bricks have turned clear (white), which means its almost ready.  It is amazing how hot the oven gets and the small amount of wood it takes to achieve high temperatures.
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: Mo on September 08, 2009, 09:10:22 PM
Very cool. Hopefully you are not going to hide that beauty in the back? Will it go in an exhibition kitchen? Four days of curing, huh? How many more to go?
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: PETE on September 08, 2009, 09:24:58 PM
No, it will not be hidden but in the corner of the pizzeria for everyone to view.  According to the builder once the bricks clear from being black, it is ready to use which takes anywere from 3-5 days.  Still waiting to install the diving arms mixer, but I am going to make a dough at home this week and try it out.  I can at least now use Caputo flour, which does not work well in my $300 home oven.
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: pacoast on September 09, 2009, 06:12:12 PM
BRUNO looks awesome. We look forward to more details & pics as you get your place setup. Don't suppose you could measure BRUNO's interior height (floor to ceiling, in the middle) for us sometime?

.
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: PETE on September 11, 2009, 03:43:43 AM
Pacoast, when it cools down I will try to measure the dome, I cooked a couple of pies today, floor at 850 dome over a 1000. tried a couple of flours, caputo, and giustos 00 they tasted incredible.  Seems like Giustos has more flavor, then again I am still mixing the dough on my kitchen aid until we can connect the Pietroberto diving arms mixer to 3 phase power.  But I feel cheated for all the years, some on this board have great backyard wood ovens (just joking), once you cook in one of the animals, how could anyone want to cook in gas etc... I
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: pacoast on September 11, 2009, 04:38:27 AM
Thanks PETE. Everything seems to work better when you have quality tools, like a proper oven. The diving arm mixer should also make your life easier. No comparison to the Kitchen Aid. Of course with a great oven & diving arm mixer, it's our turn to be envious of your kitchen. Cheers.

.
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: Mo on September 11, 2009, 10:58:02 AM
Here's ours coming in: 140x160cm Valoriani (Mugnaini).
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: thezaman on September 24, 2009, 07:43:34 PM
pete ,and mo , can you give us the dome height of your ovens ? neither companies publish this on their web sites
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: Mo on September 24, 2009, 08:11:25 PM
pete ,and mo , can you give us the dome height of your ovens ? neither companies publish this on their web sites

zaman, I will take some numbers down next time I'm at the space.

Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: pacoast on September 24, 2009, 09:04:29 PM
pete ,and mo , can you give us the dome height of your ovens ? neither companies publish this on their web sites

I know that setting up a new place can take all of your time & then some. But I'd really appreciate those heights too (floor to inside ceiling) if you can find the time to measure it.

.
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: PETE on September 25, 2009, 03:01:45 PM
From the middle of the oven (floor) to dome around 16 inches
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: pacoast on September 25, 2009, 03:53:44 PM
Thanks PETE.

.
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: Mo on October 01, 2009, 01:37:46 PM
OK,

the Valoriani is 60" fromt the inside of the arch opening to the back wall, 54" across the middle and 18" from the center of the floor to the top of the dome.
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: pacoast on October 01, 2009, 02:16:26 PM
Thanks. How close are you getting to setting the entire place up?

.
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: Mo on October 01, 2009, 04:17:41 PM
Thanks. How close are you getting to setting the entire place up?

.

We're getting closer. Walls are up and waiting for sheetrock. We have a lot of custom steel work being fabbed now. I would say we're about 4-6 weeks from having the space ready. If you like, you can get a feel for us at:

http://www.vesuvius-wfp.com

So much for not using this site for shameless self-promotion...
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: pcampbell on October 01, 2009, 05:42:52 PM
very cool!
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: andreguidon on October 01, 2009, 08:24:05 PM
yea ! very nice !!
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: PizzaVera on December 25, 2009, 06:37:32 AM
We're getting closer. Walls are up and waiting for sheetrock. We have a lot of custom steel work being fabbed now. I would say we're about 4-6 weeks from having the space ready. If you like, you can get a feel for us at:

http://www.vesuvius-wfp.com

So much for not using this site for shameless self-promotion...

hey  MO, hows it all going with the shop?? hows the oven? and hows business?

anything to report, problems, costs, running the oven etc..

we would all love to know ..
got any new pics of the baby in action???
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: Mo on January 01, 2010, 04:17:51 PM
hey  MO, hows it all going with the shop?? hows the oven? and hows business?

anything to report, problems, costs, running the oven etc..

we would all love to know ..
got any new pics of the baby in action???



Apparently I'm no good at estimating construction times as we are just now finishing up the last few details. Just started the oven break in last nite. I start training staff on Tuesday...I added a build blog to our website for those interested in such things...
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: thezaman on January 02, 2010, 07:46:03 PM
Mo, that is a impressive restaurant design. if you and your wife did it bravo !! the logo is ingenious . do you have your recipe figured out yet? was fred at all helpful on flour, or are you going in a different direction? sorry, i am a nosy one! larry
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: Mo on January 07, 2010, 09:33:10 PM
Mo, that is a impressive restaurant design. if you and your wife did it bravo !! the logo is ingenious . do you have your recipe figured out yet? was fred at all helpful on flour, or are you going in a different direction? sorry, i am a nosy one! larry

thanks Larry, my wife did an awesome job with the branding. She's a great designer and we worked hard on getting everything right. Everybody assumes we are a corporate franchise, I think because of the strength of the branding. Anyhow, we are set to open the doors on Monday. I think were going to get crushed because we've had a lot of buzz in a relatively small city where people eat out A Lot. We've also got a good location with great visibility from the busiest retail avenue in town.

The oven is great but eats a ton of wood!

Well, back to work for this guy... 
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: pizzanapoletana on February 03, 2010, 01:48:42 PM
Bill, I agree with you (sorry I don't post that much, been a viewer for many years), I have worked with a couple of Fabricated Northern Italian ovens, and they are not even close to true Neopoltian ovens, as far as Marco's co. even Stefano Ferrara in Naples has no idea what special family makes his oven, and their family has been making ovens for close to 100 years.  Marco contacted Ferrara a couple of years ago and wanted to represent their ovens, but things feel thru, and ever since he has been bad mouthing their ovens. ....

Just came across this post and happy to clarify this statement (and happy to provide more info if required):

I contacted Stefano and all other builders more then 5 years ago as going through my research I got several numbers of master builders across Naples (mainly 3 families and initially Stefano's was not one of them). I have actually avoided bad mouthing  specifically anyone including Stefano but have expressed the results of my reaserch without naming anyone and only clarified my complete distance from Stefano's company. Obviously for what you stated and other things I have heard, Stefano is not doing the same. The pizzamaker that gave me the number told me that had been making ovens for a long while. The reasons for this was to find ovens for my clients (I was consulting for) and I had no intention of representing anyone other then finding the best products for my clients. Stefano asked me to help him with the english speaking clients and made me a small offer for this help which I initially did not accept as I stated many time to him (and still have the emails to prove it) I wanted to remain independent!!!Things failed through as I found out that stories I was told were not necessarily true,  and would love to bullet point all of them but I never actually looked for a direct confrontation even thought I keep hearing stories that are being told about me. We still have clients in Naples and like to leave thing the way they are.... for now

The Masterbuilder's family that now work with Forno Napoletano has been building ovens (Pizza, bread and home ovens)for generations and I have actually seen a 70+ years olld oven built by a great uncle that was still working.


Back on the subject of this post:

An Authentic Neapolitan Oven (Now included in the EU Disciplinare so necessary for Pizza Napoletana STG), is made according to certain design principles and using specific materials. SO what is the difference? In Simple term you can cook pizzas in 30-60 seconds both underneath and the top and have outputo of 120 pizza an hour. Can you do the same with another oven? NO. IF you raise the flame, it will burn underneath before it even melt the mozzarella or after many pizza it will not cook the base at all...



Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: David on February 04, 2010, 11:33:29 AM


"Now I know what a good oven is. This one is very forgiving.(Acunto) Like a good car, it's very easy to drive. The one I have in Brooklyn (Valoriana ) is much more temperamental, much more difficult to keep at the same range. This oven is very, very friendly. It makes a nice pizza. The temperature of the stone is always in balance with the temperature of the inside of the oven, so that the pizza is cooked on the top and bottom in the same time. It's not raw on top and burned on the bottom.

It was imported from Italy, right?

It was made in Napoli and imported from there. There are only a few in this country. It's a very expensive oven, especially once you go there and bring it back, and everyone has robbed you, from Napoli to here! It ends up being an expensive oven!

But worth it?

Yeah, it's worth it. What price, though, I don't know. He told me $40,000. I think it's $20,000. "

This quote is from a conversation with Motorino owner M.Palumbino after taking over UPN last year,in an article published in the Village Voice.
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: jjerrier2450 on February 11, 2010, 11:49:07 PM
So did anyone ever get a final answer on the Type 1 vent-a-hood and fire suppression system for a Stefano Ferrara oven?  I am looking at installing one in the City of Dallas and the Health Dept OK'd the oven but now the inspection group is wanting it under a hood and with fire control.  Obviously, that totally screws up the look of the oven and I really want it out on display.  I may be able to get around the hood issue with a "non-grease laden food" argument.  But what about fire suppression...will arguing that it has a door make any sense?  Any experiences you guys have with the Ferrara ovens would be greatly appreciated.
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: Matthew on February 12, 2010, 06:14:01 AM
So did anyone ever get a final answer on the Type 1 vent-a-hood and fire suppression system for a Stefano Ferrara oven?  I am looking at installing one in the City of Dallas and the Health Dept OK'd the oven but now the inspection group is wanting it under a hood and with fire control.  Obviously, that totally screws up the look of the oven and I really want it out on display.  I may be able to get around the hood issue with a "non-grease laden food" argument.  But what about fire suppression...will arguing that it has a door make any sense?  Any experiences you guys have with the Ferrara ovens would be greatly appreciated.

Hi Jay,

One of the members "Pete" has a SF.  You may want to PM him.

Matt
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: Mo on February 14, 2010, 04:49:54 PM
So did anyone ever get a final answer on the Type 1 vent-a-hood and fire suppression system for a Stefano Ferrara oven?  I am looking at installing one in the City of Dallas and the Health Dept OK'd the oven but now the inspection group is wanting it under a hood and with fire control.  Obviously, that totally screws up the look of the oven and I really want it out on display.  I may be able to get around the hood issue with a "non-grease laden food" argument.  But what about fire suppression...will arguing that it has a door make any sense?  Any experiences you guys have with the Ferrara ovens would be greatly appreciated.

I don't know the Ferrara ovens but I can share a little about how I approached inspectors with an argument for direct venting. With respect to our oven (Valoriani), there were several good bits of info (UL/ETL listings, manufacturers recommendations, compliance with NFPA 96) that formed a compelling argument for direct venting. I made sure I had all of our documentation in line and met with inspectors to discuss the code in question and how we would suffice the requirements. It really helps your case if you do your homework. Also, in my opinion, it helps if you engage the inspectors in a respectful, conciliatory manner. After all, they are the recognized authority and have power to bless/doom your project.

Where no type-1 is indicated, there is no need for direct fire suppression. The argument being little to no presence of grease-laden vapor equals much reduced risk of fire. I have a hard time seeing how an inspector would ok direct venting but then require dedicated fire suppression. If the building is outfitted for sprinklers, etc, the addition of well-placed fire extinguishers should suffice the fire inspector's needs.

Hope this helps...

Mo.
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: jjerrier2450 on February 14, 2010, 10:24:45 PM
Mo - thanks that is very helpful.  I will press for direct venting - and my contractor knows the inspector so hopefully we can get there.  The Ferrara ovens are UL listed and I have the documentation.  I will pass that on to my contractor.  I tried to send "PETE" a PM but his mailbox is full :).

Thanks guys...

Jay
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: Fourlix on February 20, 2010, 12:42:44 PM
I bought an Emiliomiti 505 on ebay for $2500.  It is about 5 feet in diameter inside. Last time I looked there were still some available.... This was an overstock, super discount price.  It is a professional wood fired pizza oven, made in Italy, steel encased.  It weighs 3,000 lbs.  It draws and cooks beautifully. We have been testing...testing...tasting...We will open the restaurant in about one month.  I built my own oven in my backyard about 10 years ago.  $600 in fire brick, it is a vault type, "white" oven with the firebox below, and 7 flues.  It cooks very evenly, but requires a lot of fuel to keep the temps up since the firebox is indirect.  I did not build my own for the restaurant because of the fire marshall, building codes etc.  I use a laser point thermometer to measure the temps around the ovens. Both ovens make great pizza.....
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: JConk007 on February 20, 2010, 05:22:04 PM
I watched these on ebay as well and thought? boy if I had a good spot..... Just dreaming gotta keep the day job.(for now)
Good luck with your ovens and god bless ebay!
John
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: thezaman on February 21, 2010, 11:35:59 AM
hi there is a cirigliano  pizza oven on ebay it is a local market so i could save shipping costs. any one familiar with this oven? current bid is 5100.00
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: jeff v on February 21, 2010, 02:14:53 PM
hi there is a cirigliano  pizza oven on ebay it is a local market so i could save shipping costs. any one familiar with this oven? current bid is 5100.00

I saw one listed by the same company a few months ago with some shipping damage that I considred for my home. My research on the ovens led me to this info-

http://eurogourmet.biz/wood-fired-pizza-ovens.html is apparantly the exclusive distributor in the US, they used to have prices on the site, but not now.

http://eurorestaurantsolutions.com/about-cirigliano-forni-wood-fired-pizza-ovens/ eurogourmet's other site that has spec sheets.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5088.0.html a thread here.
ETA:  The above thread got a bit off track. While shango never posted how the oven actually performed here is his first impression after giving it a good lookover. That reply in the thread is here- http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5088.msg43322.html#msg43322

http://www.ciriglianoforni.it/Home.html their website, where the English version does not work.

http://www.ciriglianoforni.com/ apparatnly the US version of the site, which does not work.

Hope this helps,

Jeff
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: shango on February 21, 2010, 04:34:20 PM
Oven cooks decently.  Brick seems a little soft inside, (floor) also the floor is bricks, not larger stones.  Takes a long time to get up to temp. 

Every single one seems to have "shipping damage", the one mentioned above, the one on ebay, and the one I worked with. 

Will it work? Yes. 

Is it a quality product?  Hard to say..  I guess time will tell..
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: seerad on February 26, 2010, 10:44:21 AM
From experience, I personally love the Cirigliano Forni! The owners here grew up in Naples and it's the only oven that they'll use.  Our oven arrived with some slight damage to the clay casing around the brick and we were pretty ticked, so we called the company that sold them, Euro Gourmet, and they made it right.  They have really good customer service.  I can't speak for others' experiences but mine was and continues to be very good as we also have Euro Gourmet ship us the product for making the pizza as well.

They actually have perfected a pizza oven on wheels (built with a Cirigliano Forni, of course) that is a complete pizza oven on wheels solution with a triple sink and fridge and prep section.  The owners of the company are looking into purchasing one. Just not sure if we want to spend the money right now with the economy the way that it is.  Oh well, we'll see. If we end up buying it I'll let you know if the craftsmanship and service are consistent as what we've had in the past.  I guess it's possible we just got lucky.

Has anyone else seen the oven on wheels?
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: pizzanapoletana on February 26, 2010, 12:08:47 PM
Just a bit of clarity in terms of "Neapolitan oven":

I would not define Cirignano forni as neapolitan:

These are built in Salerno where even pizza napoletana is not often found, and have a clear different dimension and form of the dome, dimension of the opening (or mouth), positioning of the flue/chimney and according to a web-friend of mine that has had one in the garden since 2003-4 I believe, the artisan that makes them use tuscan bricks....

I am not commenting on the quality of built, as in faireness these looks well built, but they are NOT neapolitan ovens.

There is a pizzeria in London called Pizza Metro that has one of them, and the pizza does not cook in it like in a neapolitan oven made by authentic builders.

Ciao
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: GotRocks on February 26, 2010, 12:58:54 PM
Just a bit of clarity in terms of "Neapolitan oven":

I would not define Cirignano forni as neapolitan:

These are built in Salerno where even pizza napoletana is not often found, and have a clear different dimension and form of the dome, dimension of the opening (or mouth), positioning of the flue/chimney and according to a web-friend of mine that has had one in the garden since 2003-4 I believe, the artisan that makes them use tuscan bricks....

I am not commenting on the quality of built, as in fairness these looks well built, but they are NOT neapolitan ovens.

There is a pizzeria in London called Pizza Metro that has one of them, and the pizza does not cook in it like in a neapolitan oven made by authentic builders
I was reading another thread from a few years back where you made mention of some of those concerns too, You stated that the door opening may be too tall in relation to the dome height, the dome height may be in error for the diameter of the deck, and a few other speculations which may cause increased fuel usage to maintain proper temps.
The place in London you are referring to that has one of these ovens, how can you be sure it is the ovens fault for an inferior product and not the base recipe or the procedures that they chose to use for their pizza?

I currently do BBQ for a living, (I am adding a WFO to the restaurant in the very near future, hence my presence here) and I have had some very nasty BBQ that was cooked in the same model BBQ Pit that I use, but I do not blame their pit for the poor quality, I blame the cooks and the base recipes for the inferior product because what I pull out of the pit is fully different and far superior in every aspect of theirs.

The Cirigliano Forni product is on my research list as a possible oven provider, as is earthstone, Forno Bravo, pacific Coast, and a host of several other commercial rated ovens besides woodstone ovens, woodstone got crossed of my list of possibles very early in the game by speaking with people that own and have used them along their substantial high purchase costs.

So I am researching commercial ovens as we discuss this topic. I just want to verify what you state about your dislike from a products made in a Cirigliano Forni unit is actually caused by the oven, and not the cooks or the way they operate the oven.

Do you feel the dome dimensions are in error? maybe the dome dimensions are fine, but the door is too tall? materials and thickness of the materials, the composition of the bricks?
Any and all information on the likes dislikes of each different manufacturer would be very helpful to me and others at this point, but ask that you please substantiate your opinions with the "Whys & hows" of your likes & dislikes.

Thanks
G-R
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: Mo on February 26, 2010, 01:31:24 PM
Just a bit of clarity in terms of "Neapolitan oven":

I would not define Cirignano forni as neapolitan:

These are built in Salerno where even pizza napoletana is not often found, and have a clear different dimension and form of the dome, dimension of the opening (or mouth), positioning of the flue/chimney and according to a web-friend of mine that has had one in the garden since 2003-4 I believe, the artisan that makes them use tuscan bricks....

I am not commenting on the quality of built, as in faireness these looks well built, but they are NOT neapolitan ovens.

There is a pizzeria in London called Pizza Metro that has one of them, and the pizza does not cook in it like in a neapolitan oven made by authentic builders.

Ciao

I understand that there are certain physical characteristics that form a criteria for judging a Neapolitan oven, but, in your view, do you (personally) consider any oven not made in Naples a candidate for "true Neapolitan pizza oven" status?

I ask to try and determine whether or not geography has any significance whatsoever...

Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: pizzanapoletana on February 26, 2010, 03:06:33 PM
 Hi Mo/Got rocks,

From a previous reply and from various previous messages on this forum I have covered all that, in details. I also noted you previous comments about geography and that if VPN approve them that any oven is good enough but unfortunately that is not the case. As part of your research you should actually use the ovens in a commercial environment at their peak service and see, even in a 5 minutes time frame how many pizza they cook and what intervention the pizza makers needs to have to cook the pizzas.... I do not know too much about you and you probably do not know about me, but I have actually produced pizza in a commercial environment and still do so (500+ pizza at service at Franco Manca in Brixton with a Forno Napoletano Oven..).  Please let’s not go down the route of comparing the BBQ with an oven…. Plus I already say and demonstrated that I can cook pizza napoletana in most wood burning oven, but I, and any decent Neapolitan pizzamaker, could probably only do so for 1 or 2 pizza at the time, as we would constantly need to move the pizza all over the floor and up and down to catch the heat…..

Few bullet points for you:

I am not saying that I do not like the Pizza Metro's pizza, I am just say that do not cook as in Neapolitan oven, and therefore the final product is affected by default, but I actually like it for what it is, accidently closer to the one find in Salerno/Sorrento pizza by the meter. To cook properly it takes more then two minutes. If you just raised the temperature that it burns underneath without cooking evenly. I have, as many Neapolitan pizzaiolo,  the expertise to judge how an oven cook as described above. I am happy to prove it to you any time. I have been next to the guys at Pizza Metro when using the oven at peak and observed the troubles. The Fornaio was also confirming the above as they were working and even stated at a point "unfortunately we do not have an oven like at Donna Margherita (5 minutes away).

It is not a question of regionality, but the Neapolitan ovens has only ever been built by a couple of families that have maintained the secret of constructions for at least the last 300 years. These ovens have developed in Naples out of necessity of cooking pizza in a specific way making easier for the pizzaiolo to work. And therefore, where outside Naples pizza napoletana has never been produced, that type of oven as never arrived..  The oven functionality is dependent on the dimension that affect both active heat (the flame and coal) and how much wood it consume. The peculiar materials, mostly naturally extracted in the Neapolitan region, are then, with the secret of construction, equally responsible for the passive heat from the floor and for how long the keep warm and how long the oven last. If you build an exact replica in dimension of a Neapolitan oven not using the specific materials and knowing exactly how they build certain things, you may have something that look like a Neapolitan oven but it won’t cook as one (even in Naples you can find those built by brick layers that at Forno Napoletano we often replace), and therefore even then it cannot be called a Neapolitan oven.

Final bullet point: The best testimonials comes from people that have tried a Neapolitan oven, especially the best examples like in Spaccanapoli, Nella, Il Pizzaiolo and Bettola amongs others in US, and can tell you what a difference it makes as even reported in an earlier response by David about Motorino. Then to go back to your statement about if VPN approve it then it is ok, visit all the original VPN members in Naples and see if any of them have any other but a Neapolitan hand built oven by one of the always mentioned family. They are business people as well and if a prefab oven was up to the task of producing our pizza, then they would have use it as it would cost 1/5 of an hand built one described above. And to tell you more, I know two pizzaioli that went they first went independent (after working for years in one of the many historic pizzeria) installed a prefab oven for 1500 euro, only to have to close the restaurant again for two weeks soon after to replace it with one made by our master builder! When VPN started in America any wood oven would have done it as they were trying to protect the sign “pizza napoletana” advertised in places that did not even have that… In my Opinion, now that we have a different situation, they would love to go back to some of their members and ask them to install proper oven because their pizza could greatly benefit from it, but how can they do that???? And if they only start asking their new members, it would be even more inconsistent..


If my advise is not good enough from you good for me. i have been here before and now many people that have read me are in a different place (Can you guys remember the argument on coal ovens....)

Ciao

Marco
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: TXCraig1 on February 26, 2010, 03:43:58 PM
Marco,

Of the wood ovens that are available in the United States (excluding custom built ovens), which would you reccomend for home use. Recognizing that they are not true Neapolitan ovens, which comes the closest?

Thanks,
Craig
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: pizzanapoletana on February 26, 2010, 04:02:34 PM
Marco,

Of the wood ovens that are available in the United States (excluding custom built ovens), which would you reccomend for home use. Recognizing that they are not true Neapolitan ovens, which comes the closest?

Thanks,
Craig

For home use? Build your own! That was why we started a thread on wood ovens many years ago.. for home use approximation...
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: phdonme on February 26, 2010, 04:17:26 PM
Marko, will you be at the pizza expo in Las Vegas?
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: Mo on February 26, 2010, 04:47:23 PM

but I have actually produced pizza in a commercial environment and still do so (500+ pizza at service at Franco Manca in Brixton with a Forno Napoletano Oven..). 

Hi Marco,

I am curious, how long to did it take to cook 500+ pizzas in your Forno Napoletano? Or is that an all-day?

I have cooked 100+ an hour in the Valoriani with really good results. I'm not going to try and defend it as a "true Neapolitan pizza oven" but if speed of cooking and volume is to be one of the measuring points, then I would only say that other models might at least warrant some consideration.

I am certainly still learning and defer to those with much more experience. I do, however, like to explore facts and that is why I ask pointed questions.

I think you're right about the VPN and certainly don't look to them (the American association anyway) for much guidance in these discussions as they seem to have a rather undefined criteria. Whether they started out a certain way and later have followed a different path, I cannot say...

Anyway, I appreciate the discussions here and have learned much as a result...

mo.
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: GotRocks on February 26, 2010, 05:01:43 PM
Maybe there is something being lost in translation, that other thread was filled with emotion, and had zero factual evidence besides conjecture, I was hoping we could avoid that here and see facts posted instead.

Quote
As part of your research you should actually use the ovens in a commercial environment at their peak service and see, even in a 5 minutes time frame how many pizza they cook and what intervention the pizza makers needs to have to cook the pizzas....

That is infeasible for me, and and for most other people to be able to just jet off around the world to eat pizza at different places and watch them being cooked, That is why I am partaking in internet based research. There is absolutely nothing that I cannot learn through proper communication son the "World Wide Web" isn't that why we are all here?

Then you state;
Quote
Please let’s not go down the route of comparing the BBQ with an oven….

Nowhere was I trying to compare BBQ with using a WFO for pizza,  I simply stated that I have a BBQ business and I am planning on adding a wood-fired oven to do pizza at the same establishment, how you ever thought it was a comparison issue is beyond me! Again, is it a translation issue??

Quote
I am not saying that I do not like the Pizza Metro's pizza, I am just say that do not cook as in Neapolitan oven, and therefore the final product is affected by default, but I actually like it for what it is, accidentally closer to the one find in Salerno/Sorrento pizza by the meter. To cook properly it takes more then two minutes. If you just raised the temperature that it burns underneath without cooking evenly. I have, as many Neapolitan pizzaiolo,  the expertise to judge how an oven cook as described above. I am happy to prove it to you any time.


okay, great wonderful, But that entire paragraph has no factual substance to it, I/we specifically asked if you could explain the hows & whys for the reason that oven does not work, too high of a dome? to wide of a dome? too deep? wrong materials? door opening? What facts can you show to back up your claims of why that particular model of oven is not suitable for pizza?? You state they do not cook in a "Neopolitan Oven" Someone esle asked if yur defenition of "Neapolitan Oven" meant the style of oven, or one built in the region. And I am still unclear of your defention until the next paragraph.

Quote
It is not a question of regionality, but the Neapolitan ovens has only ever been built by a couple of families that have maintained the secret of constructions for at least the last 300 years. These ovens have developed in Naples out of necessity of cooking pizza in a specific way making easier for the pizzaiolo to work. And therefore, where outside Naples pizza napoletana has never been produced, that type of oven as never arrived..  The oven functionality is dependent on the dimension that affect both active heat (the flame and coal) and how much wood it consume. The peculiar materials, mostly naturally extracted in the Neapolitan region, are then, with the secret of construction, equally responsible for the passive heat from the floor and for how long the keep warm and how long the oven last. If you build an exact replica in dimension of a Neapolitan oven not using the specific materials and knowing exactly how they build certain things, you may have something that look like a Neapolitan oven but it won’t cook as one (even in Naples you can find those built by brick layers that at Forno Napoletano we often replace), and therefore even then it cannot be called a Neapolitan oven.

Ok, with that last paragraph, I get that you are saying that if the basic building materials do not come from Italy, and you do not bring an oven builder with 300 years of oven building in their family to build your oven on-site, that we'll never have a properly working oven. I tend to disagree, if the critical dimensions are correct, and a material with similar qualities is used, there is no reason someone could not produce a workable oven in another country.


Quote
If my advise is not good enough from you good for me. i have been here before and now many people that have read me are in a different place (Can you guys remember the argument on coal ovens....)

Nobody stated that your opinion is not good enough, it is more that people, (myself included) are just trying to get specific answers on why certain products from different makers are unsuitable, this could be due to the geometry, door opening height, deck materials, exhaust flue even down to the fuel wood of choice.

To put  it more blatantly. What Specific features do not make these particular ovens suitable in your opinion? just because they are not built in a specific Italian region? or is it the critical dimensions?

I am not trying to argue, and I do not feel anyone else here that is asking for clarification is trying to argue either.
 I am just trying to get verifiable facts on ovens before I drop $15K-$25K to get an oven in my establishment,
 I need to know what features, dimensions and whatever is suitable, and what is not suitable without being required to purchase 12 different units and test each one in my location to determine the issues or fly around the world to cook in each different make & model.

Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: shango on February 26, 2010, 06:01:07 PM
I think you would be surprised what you can get for $15-$25k..Also, if you plan on making "Neapolitan" pizza, wouldn't it be in your best interest to invest the money, and time, in jetting around the world tasting, and watching people make Neapolitan pizza?  Why wouldn't you want a real reference, and control point, to the product that you plan to represent?

If you don't plan on making Neapolitan pizza, why does it matter that you have a Neapolitan oven?  Forgive me if you answered these questions in your previous post, I couldn't make it all the way through..

*edit* read your post through..

One more thing about the Cirigliano Forni, the floor, being made out of bricks rather than stone, is not smooth or even, this brick is higher than that one, and the one after that is lower than the one beside it. Not a lot, but there is a variance.  Do you follow what I am saying?  If you have experience with these style of pizza ovens and the tools that are used with them, you know what I am getting at.  Now, imagine that those bricks are very soft, what could happen?

*edit#2* I agree that Eurogourmet has good customer service.   :)
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: GotRocks on February 26, 2010, 10:58:17 PM
I think you would be surprised what you can get for $15-$25k..Also, if you plan on making "Neapolitan" pizza, wouldn't it be in your best interest to invest the money, and time, in jetting around the world tasting, and watching people make Neapolitan pizza?  Why wouldn't you want a real reference, and control point, to the product that you plan to represent?

Exactly duplicating a Neapolitan pie is not on my list of priorities, But knowing that a certain oven has those capabilities if it is needed is a priority!
Do you follow me?
My goal is to find an efficient, well-built, commercial-rated WFO that is allowable for use in a commercial kitchen in the USA with the proper UL, ANSI, NSF and other ratings that are required for me to use it in a commercial situation. I want to get the right oven the first time around instead of pissing away my money twice.
There is a huge list of manufacturers out there, and I am currently narrowing down the list by their capabilities. When someone says "That is not the correct oven for a certain style of pizza", I would like to know why it is not the correct choice, and maybe even have verifiable facts to back that statement up.

What is an easier way to explain this?  Maybe that I feel it is prudent to just get the right equipment the first time around instead of purchasing something twice!

Why can't I fly around the world to try pizza? Because I see it as a waste of money not necessary to reach my current goals.
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: shango on February 26, 2010, 11:00:21 PM
Well then, I would suggest that you do just what you want.  It's not for me or anyone else to tell you how to spend your time, or your money, is it?

I'm sure whatever you choose will be the best choice.
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: pizzanapoletana on February 27, 2010, 05:19:26 AM
Hi Marco,

I am curious, how long to did it take to cook 500+ pizzas in your Forno Napoletano? Or is that an all-day?

I have cooked 100+ an hour in the Valoriani with really good results. I'm not going to try and defend it as a "true Neapolitan pizza oven" but if speed of cooking and volume is to be one of the measuring points, then I would only say that other models might at least warrant some consideration.

I am certainly still learning and defer to those with much more experience. I do, however, like to explore facts and that is why I ask pointed questions.

I think you're right about the VPN and certainly don't look to them (the American association anyway) for much guidance in these discussions as they seem to have a rather undefined criteria. Whether they started out a certain way and later have followed a different path, I cannot say...

Anyway, I appreciate the discussions here and have learned much as a result...

mo.


In under 3 hours, with the peak of about 200 in the 12.30 to 14.00 hrs timeframe. Also how the pizza cook? can you post a picture of your pizza? What is the average cooking time for pizza?. The answers to those questions are facts. I have already covered them before. I have not reason to lie. When I first start consulting pizzeria outside of naples, my main difficulty was making a decent product with those other ovens. Well, it was not feasable commercially (output and quality). The oven needs to help the pizzaiolo make a certain type of pizza, at a certain speed, with a certain quality output. I only worked with two ovens that can do that for me. One of my old masters as Fornaio use to tell me that once we are at peak service, we are on a ride, in and out no stop, you only need to turn each pizza once, otherwise is a waste of time.

At some point I will post a video of an in and out pizza to show you what I mean...
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: pizzanapoletana on February 27, 2010, 05:26:41 AM
GotRocks,

The BBQ comment was in response to your allegation that a bad BBQ food and a bad pizza could not be dependent from where these were cooked. A Pizza Oven is much more a dependable then a BBQ, that is what my statement was referring to. I was not talking about what business do you run or other thing.

If Shango allow me, when he first started on this forum he had a wealth of experience using ovens in America, producing VPN pizza, but had never been to Naples. After his trip to Naples, I belive his views have changed considerably, so you cannot learn everything behind a screen IMO. Other then that, again as Shango said, it is not up to use to convince you. I gave you my views, based on my experience, make what you want out of it. I guess the 1000 plus pizzeria in Naples should start changing their ovens for those cheaper ones as these work as well!!!!

Firstly, back to my statement about neapolitans, a compinations of dimension and materials makes what it is.  If you make an exact dimensional copy, without the same materials, are you achieveing the same property of floor strenght, contact heat, warming up mass etc... there are few things that it is not in our interest to share, but there are huge mistakes assumption made by some people that have tried to replicate a neapolitan oven. In any case, mostly the dimension and shape have been wrong, even within the neapolitan copies (made in Naples). Shape of dome and height being big differences for the radiant and direct heat. The shape and dimension of the opening "mouth badly affect cold/hot spots and wood consuptions. Are these good enough facts???


PS If I am a big corporation and start sponsoring events so that my Ovens get recommend it, does it make me the oven of choice? Expecially if at the same event, the organizes actually use ovens made by an artisan????? Food for thought
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: Matthew on February 27, 2010, 05:52:51 AM
Exactly duplicating a Neapolitan pie is not on my list of priorities, But knowing that a certain oven has those capabilities if it is needed is a priority!
Do you follow me?
My goal is to find an efficient, well-built, commercial-rated WFO that is allowable for use in a commercial kitchen in the USA with the proper UL, ANSI, NSF and other ratings that are required for me to use it in a commercial situation. I want to get the right oven the first time around instead of pissing away my money twice.
There is a huge list of manufacturers out there, and I am currently narrowing down the list by their capabilities. When someone says "That is not the correct oven for a certain style of pizza", I would like to know why it is not the correct choice, and maybe even have verifiable facts to back that statement up.

What is an easier way to explain this?  Maybe that I feel it is prudent to just get the right equipment the first time around instead of purchasing something twice!

Why can't I fly around the world to try pizza? Because I see it as a waste of money not necessary to reach my current goals.

GR,
There are many posts within the forum, (mostly written by Marco) that contain the answers that your looking for.  In know that it's not on your to do list but most people who have purchased these ovens have in fact travelled to Naples & visited various manufacturers & restaurants, etc in order to make their decision.  Most people have also trained with master pizzaioli in Naples. Working with one of these ovens is an art & is just as difficult as producing a good dough, it takes alot of practice & experience.  These ovens are manufactured to sustain temperatures of 1000+ degrees & perform best at these temperatures.  As Marco mentioned, even the best pizzaiolos cannot handle more than 2 at a time.  Without the proper experience your pizza will turn to charcoal in no time.  If it is not your intention to make Neapolitan pizza then this may not be the right oven for you.  A mass produced & reputable manufacturer may be your best choice.  There are many companies out there who sell efficient, well-built, commercial-rated ovens, they are not "Neapolitan Ovens" by definition, but if your not making Neapolitan pizza then it doesn't really matter.

Matt
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: Mo on February 27, 2010, 10:05:19 AM
In under 3 hours, with the peak of about 200 in the 12.30 to 14.00 hrs timeframe.

Three hours is 180 minutes, right? So, 12:30-14:00 is 90 minutes in which you cook 200 pizzas. Is my math correct if I assume that the other 300 pizzas are cooked in 90 minutes as well?

How many pizzas in the oven at the same time? Judging by your numbers, it looks like cook time for your oven seems to be around 60 seconds or under per pizza. Would you say that's accurate? This of course depends on how many you cook at once...

I am interested to watch your video if you get it posted...

As far as what my pizzas look like, I'll try to post a photo tomorrow. I do have some shots I've taken in the last couple days. I can say that they have a combination of good leoparding along with nice browning. The bottom shows some char but I would say this char represents less than 25% of the surface area. Crust is lightly crispy with a tender crumb and large, irregular fermentation pockets. The center is quite thin but will hold up when right out of the oven. After about a minute on the plate, the center will start to sag a bit but I believe this is probably typical. Cook time is around 90 seconds, maybe a bit more.

For our operation, I have tried to incorporate elements of Neapolitan style. I have not worried too much about claims to authenticity as our ingredient/product mix reflects more of a contemporary, local flair. We do use 00 and other traditional ingredients. Our prosciutto is made by La Quercia here in Iowa, absolutely without a doubt the best prosciutto I have ever had. They also make coppa (which we use) lardo, pancetta and speck...We get our greens, cream, goat cheese, mozz and sausage locally as well. We use a 6-year aged balsamic from Modena and a Tunisian evoo. Our sea salt is from Bali. I have brought in some mozzarella di buffala from Campania couple times to run as special. As soon as the local growing season gets going here, we'll get all of our produce from within a 20-mile radius.

Did I mention I love talking about this stuff?

mo.


Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: shango on February 27, 2010, 10:34:26 AM
I can understand being proud of your product, enjoying your work, and loving to discuss pizza, or even food in general.  I feel the same way.

What I cannot understand is insisting that a product, such as a pizza oven, is something that it clearly is not.  The distinction between wood fueled oven, and Neapolitan pizza oven is slight, but a distinction none the less.  They are not the same thing.  Insisting that they are is silly. Even the manufacturers do not make these claims..

Again, if you are not making "Neapolitan" pizza.  Why insist that the oven is Neapolitan?
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: Mo on February 27, 2010, 10:59:46 AM
I can understand being proud of your product, enjoying your work, and loving to discuss pizza, or even food in general.  I feel the same way.

What I cannot understand is insisting that a product, such as a pizza oven, is something that it clearly is not.  The distinction between wood fueled oven, and Neapolitan pizza oven is slight, but a distinction none the less.  They are not the same thing.  Insisting that they are is silly. Even the manufacturers do not make these claims..

Again, if you are not making "Neapolitan" pizza.  Why insist that the oven is Neapolitan?


I don't believe I have insisted anywhere (perhaps you are not referring to me specifically) that the oven I use should be labeled one thing or the other. I have only tried to draw out the differences by asking others who have done the insisting. I am, however, always skeptical when I hear unspecific, vague, subject-to-interpretation terms like "true", "authentic" and "real" thrown around as though they hold some quantifiable, easily identifiable attributes.

But you're are absolutely right. Ultimately, if you make kick-ass pizza, who cares how you did it or what you did it in? And let's not forget, traditions evolve and develop over time. What is new and innovative now will seem old hat in 50 years...

Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: pizzanapoletana on February 27, 2010, 11:19:59 AM
I did make some mistakes so let me clarify as I also have mistypes and assumed you knew the background.

At Franco Manca we open at about 12 and close from 16.30. 500+ pizza are made in that time frame with the majority made in the 90 minutes mentioned before. 240 pizza an hour are made on average in that 90 minutes. Our ovens can output (as done in Naples) about 280 pizza an hour with people with experience. 5 pizza at the time.

Can your oven even get closer to that? no way.

You like facts and are sceptical? Here are the facts. Can I prove it? YES. Even a guy called Michael the baker I believe, that is a member of this forum, apparently did a sting at Franco Manca and PM me to tell me how impress he was by those volumes...

There is also a lot of press coverage on that operations with the queques etc...

The approach to ingredients is similar to the one taken at Franco Manca, where local, organic and seasonal is relevant to their approach. What was not questionable was what type of oven to select to achieve a type of dough and output quality that the owner had in mind... Pictures attached as a Salsiccia made with a locoal rare breed

Tradition may evolve over time, but we are talking abour 300 + years of almost unchanged tradition!!!! You can make your own one and hope it will last that long.



Edit: I found this pictures of what I believe is your pizza? http://www.flickr.com/photos/juddfurlong/4321580920/ and there is another one on the Vesuvious  website that is more or less like that.
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: GotRocks on February 27, 2010, 11:46:25 AM
Maybe I need to make a distinction here to ease the confusion.

Instead of using the term "Neapolitan Oven" maybe just use "Wood-fired Oven" in place of that term?

To clarify further, I am personally looking for a commercial wood-fired oven with similar attributes as a Neapolitan oven. It Doe snot need to be built in Naples, from the 13th generation of oven builders. But I want an oven with similar heat and fuel usage characteristic.

I do not plan to pursue VPN certification, I do not plan to duplicate a true Neapolitan pizza, I just want an oven that has those capabilites should the need  arise in the future.
In the mean time I am trying to narrow down a list of oven manufacturers by their capabilities so I only need to purchase one oven that I can use for a few different styles of Pizza with the least amount of pain possible.
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: Mo on February 27, 2010, 11:54:07 AM
I did make some mistakes so let me clarify as I also have mistypes and assumed you knew the background.

At Franco Manca we open at about 12 and close from 16.30. 500+ pizza are made in that time frame with the majority made in the 90 minutes mentioned before. 240 pizza an hour are made on average in that 90 minutes. Our ovens can output (as done in Naples) about 280 pizza an hour with people with experience. 5 pizza at the time.

Can your oven even get closer to that? no way.

You like facts and are sceptical? Here are the facts. Can I prove it? YES. Even a guy called Michael the baker I believe, that is a member of this forum, apparently did a sting at Franco Manca and PM me to tell me how impress he was by those volumes...

There is also a lot of press coverage on that operations with the queques etc...

The approach to ingredients is similar to the one taken at Franco Manca, where local, organic and seasonal is relevant to their approach. What was not questionable was what type of oven to select to achieve a type of dough and output quality that the owner had in mind... Pictures attached as a Salsiccia made with a locoal rare breed

Tradition may evolve over time, but we are talking abour 300 + years of almost unchanged tradition!!!! You can make your own one and hope it will last that long.



Edit: I found this pictures of what I believe is your pizza? http://www.flickr.com/photos/juddfurlong/4321580920/ and there is another one on the Vesuvious  website that is more or less like that.


Well, that's admittedly not a great picture of one of ours. I would imagine that was taken in the first week or two when we were still working out the kinks. We have gotten better since. After the first week or so of learning the particulars of our oven, I have been able to put out a much better looking product. You will see in ours now much better leoparding and browning. The pizza you've shown is obviously out of an oven that wasn't hot enough. Chalk it up to operator error rather than equipment.

And there's no need to try to talk down to me Marco. I was merely asking a question about how long it took your oven to cook 500 pizzas. You said that you can do over 500 in less than three hours so I was curious how that broke down. Like I said earlier, we can do about 120 an hour.


And Marco, if you're ever in Ames, Iowa I would love to have you come in and see what we can do.

Time to go cook pizzas.

Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: pizzanapoletana on February 27, 2010, 12:29:24 PM
If the need arise in the future to make neapolitan pizza then there is not an oven rather then the neapolitan hand built one (and I have specified what is the definition of neapolitan)that would help you achieve that. That is it... You may want to vivit il Pizzaiolo in Pittsburgh PA and ask him what the oven change has done for him....

The positive is that a neapolitan oven can be used to bake other pizz by managing down the heat, whilst you cannot push up the heat to the same level of a neapolitan oven without loosing the balance with other wood ovens...

There are many ovens that are suitable to 2-3 or more  minutes pizza.

Good luck with your venture.

Maybe I need to make a distinction here to ease the confusion.

Instead of using the term "Neapolitan Oven" maybe just use "Wood-fired Oven" in place of that term?

To clarify further, I am personally looking for a commercial wood-fired oven with similar attributes as a Neapolitan oven. It Doe snot need to be built in Naples, from the 13th generation of oven builders. But I want an oven with similar heat and fuel usage characteristic.

I do not plan to pursue VPN certification, I do not plan to duplicate a true Neapolitan pizza, I just want an oven that has those capabilites should the need  arise in the future.
In the mean time I am trying to narrow down a list of oven manufacturers by their capabilities so I only need to purchase one oven that I can use for a few different styles of Pizza with the least amount of pain possible.
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: Mo on February 28, 2010, 10:40:39 AM
If the need arise in the future to make neapolitan pizza then there is not an oven rather then the neapolitan hand built one (and I have specified what is the definition of neapolitan)that would help you achieve that. That is it... You may want to vivit il Pizzaiolo in Pittsburgh PA and ask him what the oven change has done for him....

The positive is that a neapolitan oven can be used to bake other pizz by managing down the heat, whilst you cannot push up the heat to the same level of a neapolitan oven without loosing the balance with other wood ovens...

There are many ovens that are suitable to 2-3 or more  minutes pizza.

Good luck with your venture.



I promised you pics so here they are. One has calabrese salami from Columbus in SF, and the other has a light cream sauce with prosciutto from La Quercia.


mo.
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: pizzanapoletana on February 28, 2010, 11:28:12 AM
Thanks for the pictures. Leaving aside the defective of handling and the dough itself that are visible, those pizza looks to me drier and crispier due to the longer cooking time, which I guess are  closer or north of two minutes.. Those are burnt spots not leapoarding. My honest view.
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: Mo on February 28, 2010, 12:14:48 PM
Thanks for the pictures. Leaving aside the defective of handling and the dough itself that are visible, those pizza looks to me drier and crispier due to the longer cooking time, which I guess are  closer or north of two minutes.. Those are burnt spots not leapoarding. My honest view.

Defects in handling? Burnt spots? Come on, dude, now you're just making stuff up.

I think at this point it's clear you are not impressed with anything but yourself. I didn't expect much more.
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: Infoodel on February 28, 2010, 12:46:34 PM
Cos these are real leopard spots not burnt?  ???
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: Infoodel on February 28, 2010, 12:47:33 PM
More leoparding or 'burnt' spots  ???

Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: Infoodel on February 28, 2010, 01:00:40 PM
Defective handling or 'rustic authenticity'?
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: shango on February 28, 2010, 03:04:59 PM
Now we're off track!

Remember, beauty is in the eye of the beer-holder.

Oh, and picture #7 is definitely burnt.  I would eat all the rest of the pictures.

and While we're at it, how is mine?  It came from a POS pompeii oven that was built by Illegal immigrants that took it upon themselves to put two openings on the oven, one on either side, and a flue also.  Hahaha!
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: pizzanapoletana on February 28, 2010, 03:18:30 PM
Infodel,

Indeed all the pictures you have found on the net show other types of defective handling and burnt spots, but the dough still shows proper baking rise which also tells me something else. Indeed out of an output of several thousands a week, unfortunatelly the team let go out some pizza like that to the table. But those are not models pie that I would post as confrontation, and indeed forms part of my weekly feedback to the team.

Am I making things up? That is why I get paid to spot and correct those mistakes. The pizza in Mo's pictures are completelly flat and lifeless. Big, single burnt bubles are not leoparding but shows defects. Those are results of poor handling and dough making.

Even in the burnt pizza Infodel posted, which still come out around the minute, you can see a larger proportion of tiny, well spread leoparding. The burnt was probably caused by 10 second too much in the oven.  I do not believe thse pictures are quite recent. As I said it is extremely difficult to work on a neapolitan oven, especially with our output and the fact that we have often trained new people, when I am sure those pictures are from. But what do I know?

Edit:  And a better example of what leoparding, proper handling and  our oven can achieve can be found  at this client website: http://www.pizzeriasalvo.it/ (click on Galleria and enjoy). The dough and attention to details is top notch, the volumes are similar and the oven complete the pictures cooking at around the minute.



Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: shango on February 28, 2010, 03:29:23 PM
In my defense, it was quite humid that day.
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: Infoodel on February 28, 2010, 03:34:09 PM
Infodel,

Indeed all the pictures you have found on the net show other types of defective handling and burnt spots, but the dough still shows proper baking rise which also tells me something else. Indeed out of an output of several thousands a week, unfortunatelly the team let go out some pizza like that to the table. But those are not models pie that I would post as confrontation, and indeed forms part of my weekly feedback to the team.

Am I making things up? That is why I get paid to spot and correct those mistakes. The pizza in Mo's pictures are completelly flat and lifeless. Big, single burnt bubles are not leoparding but shows defects. Those are results of poor handling and dough making.

Even in the burnt pizza Infodel posted, which still come out around the minute, you can see a larger proportion of tiny, well spread leoparding. The burnt was probably caused by 10 second too much in the oven.  I do not believe thse pictures are quite recent. As I said it is extremely difficult to work on a neapolitan oven, especially with our output and the fact that we have often trained new people, when I am sure those pictures are from. But what do I know?


Agreed if you're making as many pies as you say (240 an hour!) then I would expect a few to come out slightly under par. However the 6 pictures I posted were from 6 different pies and on 6 different occasions (er maybe 5).
The picture you posted of the sausage pie was from the Chiswick branch, am I right?
I'm curious because I hope to visit Franco Manca v. soon. Question is - which branch should I visit and will you be manning the ovens? If at all possible, I'd like the full Marco experience :)
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: pizzanapoletana on February 28, 2010, 03:45:10 PM
Agreed if you're making as many pies as you say (240 an hour!) then I would expect a few to come out slightly under par. However the 6 pictures I posted were from 6 different pies and on 6 different occasions (er maybe 5).
The picture you posted of the sausage pie was from the Chiswick branch, am I right?
I'm curious because I hope to visit Franco Manca v. soon. Question is - which branch should I visit and will you be manning the ovens? If at all possible, I'd like the full Marco experience :)

It was Chiswick indeed, where because of the new status, the better team is working (both guys are neapolitan trained). I would rarely go there to man the oven, but would be happy to be there (even in Brixton) at the same time as you to cook you a pizza. Anyway, from different occasions as you said, but not recently. I am pretty confident as the cheese we use, still from Alham Farms in Sommerset, just recently got better in the melting qualities (as I said since the beginning, there we had the most issues).

I have pictures of the last few pizza I baked in brixton but having problem to reduce in size to post. In Any case, I guess if you visited you have seen both the speed and volume of output...
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: Mo on February 28, 2010, 03:47:11 PM
As I said it is extremely difficult to work on a neapolitan oven, especially with our output and the fact that we have often trained new people, when I am sure those pictures are from.

I thought the point of a True Neapolitan Pizza Oven was that it cooked pizzas flawlessly in 60 seconds or less. Did I miss soemthing?


But what do I know?

I'm starting to wonder...
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: scott123 on February 28, 2010, 04:15:45 PM
Edit:  And a better example of what leoparding, proper handling and  our oven can achieve can be found  at this client website: http://www.pizzeriasalvo.it/ (click on Galleria and enjoy). The dough and attention to details is top notch, the volumes are similar and the oven complete the pictures cooking at around the minute.

I'm a NY style guy to the core, so it's very rare that Neapolitan pies reach out and grab my attention.  The pies pictured here, though, look amazing.  Whatever time window they have to get these pizzas out of the oven- they're hitting it.

That being said... this gum layer so proudly displayed in the photo below doesn't give me much confidence in this establishment.
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: Infoodel on February 28, 2010, 04:23:21 PM
I'm a NY style guy to the core, so it's very rare that Neapolitan pies reach out and grab my attention.  The pies pictured here, though, look amazing.  Whatever time window they have to get these pizzas out of the oven- they're hitting it.

That being said... this gum layer so proudly displayed in the photo below doesn't give me much confidence in this establishment.

Scott, are we seeing the same thing? 'cause what I see there is a well cooked cornicione. The 'glistening' (translucent) crumb is indicative to me of a well-cooked, high hydration dough. I'm used to seeing the same thing in a loaf of 'rustic' sourdough bread that may have been in the oven for 30 to 40 minutes.
edit: although granted towards the left, where the sauce hits the pie, it does look a little gummier.
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: thezaman on February 28, 2010, 08:05:45 PM
 wow has this thread gotten interesting ,i truly believe that the ovens built specifically for neapolitan pizza do a better job than one that is designed for general use. if the cook isn't cranking out 250 pies per hour i think you can get by with a general purpose oven. it will take a lot of work to cook a perfect pizza,but it can be done. marco talks about true neapolitan ovens being superior and they probably are ,they use less fuel, burn hot but gentle. there is a reference on the web by the owner of motorino and his comparison of the old upn oven and his renato oven at the brooklyn store. according to him the upn oven is much easier to use ,a more consistent cooking oven. i never had the brooklyn pizza but i did have the old upn,new motorino pizza and it was very good. it showed a lot of the characteristics that marco talks about.
  my opinions are based on only eating at a few neapolitan pizzerias and trying to bake in my back yard a pizza similar.i have had success only on a few occasions . this is where i realize that neapolitan pizza is a very hard product to produce at the restaurant level. i started this thread and if i ever do a neapolitan pizzeria i will purchase the one that marco advertises or the one that motorino uses. if i decide to go with organics such as bianco does a non neapolitan oven will be fine.
 my issue is that i am already in the business and i will have to hire a 50 to 60 thousand dollar a year manager to run my joint so i can pursue something that i cannot do at an acceptable level . so i am incorporating this pizza style at my pizzeria using a american made oven. i then can hone my skills and hopefully do this in my old age. any one going to amano this week end look for a fat guy with a big nose it be me. lets compare notes.
 
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: pizzanapoletana on March 01, 2010, 04:59:33 AM
Mo,

Indeed 60 seconds, so if a new guy cannot yet handle 5 pizza at the time, it will be that 1 or 2 per batch may stay in the oven too long (seconds)... If he had to back 2 or 3 at the time to have your output, all should be spotless. It is also important to note that at Peak, the oven is run match hotter that I would ideally run it at, so the baking time is often closer to 45 seconds....

And on experience  and knowledge on dough and ovens it will be fun to compete, any day...

I also invite you to visit us if you ever are in London.

Scott123,

Are you commenting on a perfectly risen cornicione??? Talking about gummy? You probably like crispy pizza, but pizza was born soft as it was a different product from crusty bread and crispy flat breads... Even a crispy pizza could have such a cornicione, which is an indication of perfect oven spring at very hot temperatures, with the right gluten development and maturation.

Anyway, as you said  you like the NYC that is basically a Neapolitan inspired pizza that is cooked  for longer resulting in a dryier, less lively products. What americans define as soggy pizza, for us means that the topping ingredients are not stressed and the freshness preserved. Different point of view. I could eat Totonno's pizza, but John's in Bleecker street is something taht should not be produced...
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: thezaman on March 01, 2010, 08:51:04 AM
marco,
 you know a heck of a lot about neapolitan pizza, all aspects. you have taught the members a lot. i don't think anyone wants to challenge you on your abilities as a pizza maker. i think we would like you to make positive suggestions on how we can make better pizza.
 would you be willing to give ideas on how we can get a non neapolitan specific oven to get better results. how about if we start a thread let us send pics and you can critique our pies.
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: pizzanapoletana on March 01, 2010, 09:10:04 AM
marco,
 you know a heck of a lot about neapolitan pizza, all aspects. you have taught the members a lot. i don't think anyone wants to challenge you on your abilities as a pizza maker. i think we would like you to make positive suggestions on how we can make better pizza.
 would you be willing to give ideas on how we can get a non neapolitan specific oven to get better results. how about if we start a thread let us send pics and you can critique our pies.

Hi,

I have said many times why I do not do that anymore. An example is the  people that do not like my comments as they know better.... In any case I was only clarifying what can or cannot be called a neapolitan oven, based on pratical experience on many wood fired ovens (brick made, authentic neapolitan, neapolitan imitations, prefab in Italy, prefab around the world, etc). Whilst, other are commenting without the knowledge....

At an home level, making one at the time, you can approximate the effect of a neapolitan, by moving the pizza closer and far from the heat, and up in the air or back on the floor depending on where you need the heat.

However, if the dough has some other defects, that is independent from what we were originally talking about. I did not post immediatelly a link to Ciro Salvo's pizza, as there we are also talking about one of the best pizza dough in the world from a technical point of view...


Ciao
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: shango on March 01, 2010, 09:49:44 AM
I agree Salvo makes an amazing pizza.  Out of all the others I have had in Naples, Gino Sorbillo and Da Michele were the best, although Da Michele left a bit of an uneasy feeling in my stomach as I walked back to the hotel. 

Who Makes Gino Sorbillo and Da Michele's ovens?
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: pizzanapoletana on March 01, 2010, 11:15:41 AM
I agree Salvo makes an amazing pizza.  Out of all the others I have had in Naples, Gino Sorbillo and Da Michele were the best, although Da Michele left a bit of an uneasy feeling in my stomach as I walked back to the hotel. 

Who Makes Gino Sorbillo and Da Michele's ovens?

Interesting point on Gino's that as you may know is also one of my favorite pizza, even though I would say a less traditional one. His dough, although very light and tasty, is slightly on the dryer side as are the ingredients on top (which makes it less soggy I guess and more suitable for the American palate). Top notch baked "Calzone", which is his specialty...

Da Michele original oven (exterior still the same) was done over 50 years ago by a family I know very well ;-)... in the summer of 2008 it was redone internally only (dome and floor/unchanged exterior) by another builder as a temporary measure. They may soon remake it completely....

Gino Sorbillo is also about to replace it. So soon I should be able to tell you...
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: Mo on March 01, 2010, 11:22:40 AM
Mo,

Indeed 60 seconds, so if a new guy cannot yet handle 5 pizza at the time, it will be that 1 or 2 per batch may stay in the oven too long (seconds)... If he had to back 2 or 3 at the time to have your output, all should be spotless. It is also important to note that at Peak, the oven is run match hotter that I would ideally run it at, so the baking time is often closer to 45 seconds....

I'll just make one more observation and then I'm going to leave it alone (maybe)...If you are cooking 5 pizzas at a time at peak service and you admit that one or two is left in too long then that means (mathematically) that somewhere between 48-96 pizzas during peak service are overdone, resulting in the, shall we say, very Crispy (some may call it burned) looking pizzas pictured earlier. Granted I'm new to pizzas but I've been cheffing in kitchens for a long time and that sounds like not very good quality control for the sake of putting out large numbers of pizzas. Wouldn't they be better off cooking two or three at a time to better standards rather than accepting mediocre results for large numbers of pizzas?

Again, I 'm a rookie and probably an idiot, so help me understand.

mo.
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: pizzanapoletana on March 01, 2010, 11:49:12 AM
You are not an idiot, and are completelly right. You eventually get to bake 5 pizza at the time with no problems like thay are doing more recently that the Fornaio has learned his trade. However, at the time he was learning it would have been better doing as you explained. This has been a point of major feedback from me to the owner and team. We are designing a training programme so that trainee will only be allowed on the secondary oven (normally unmanned during service and used for bread). But again, this is Franco Manca where we have queques for hours and the pressure has caused the restaurant manager for total output rather then quality (against by wrost nightmare)..


Back to the Neapolitan oven dependency, once you have a good team, then there is not comparison possibles... And as there are probably only few places where you need to output at 240 per hour (namely Naples, London, probably NYC and few others), then  with a more reasonable 180 per hour, you would still bake the best pizza in the world thanks to the Neapolitan oven!

I was checking teh pictures of other places that use your oven to sell pizza napoletana, even under the VPN membership, and all were affected by the longer cooking times....

That is why I belive that VPN membership should be linked to the proper tools as they would use it in Naples. If they do not use a prefab oven because is not good, why are these good for people abroad? Yes many years ago was difficult to get a Neapolitan ovens abroad aside of built on site, but now is different.

Ciao


Edit: Crisp and burnt are two different things (That is not what I was referring to). A pizza can be burnt and still soft....


I'll just make one more observation and then I'm going to leave it alone (maybe)...If you are cooking 5 pizzas at a time at peak service and you admit that one or two is left in too long then that means (mathematically) that somewhere between 48-96 pizzas during peak service are overdone, resulting in the, shall we say, very Crispy (some may call it burned) looking pizzas pictured earlier. Granted I'm new to pizzas but I've been cheffing in kitchens for a long time and that sounds like not very good quality control for the sake of putting out large numbers of pizzas. Wouldn't they be better off cooking two or three at a time to better standards rather than accepting mediocre results for large numbers of pizzas?

Again, I 'm a rookie and probably an idiot, so help me understand.

mo.
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: andreguidon on March 01, 2010, 12:40:54 PM
 ;D very interesting discussion !!  ;D

iam posting a link, but iam not jugging the quality of the pizza, just the speed... and how may pizzas where in the oven at the same time...

http://www.youtube.com/user/andreguidon#p/f/27/FNiDsgb78T4
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: TXCraig1 on March 01, 2010, 01:32:54 PM
For home use? Build your own! That was why we started a thread on wood ovens many years ago.. for home use approximation...

Marco,

Are there any special considerations/concerns when building a brick oven for use in a very high humidity area such as Houston, TX?

What diameter would you reccomend for home use?

Thanks,
Craig
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: shango on March 01, 2010, 01:47:36 PM
In my 2amys days, the most pizze we ever had in the oven was 18.  It took a lot of shuffling and juggling. The temperature would swing wildly..we would have the oven stuffed like that for hours, and even though it was difficult, took many people to pull off, etc..  We could easily produce 200 mediocre pizze per hour.

This was a woodstone Mt. Baker-strictly wood fueled.  I am not recommending the oven, but stating that high production levels can be achieved with anything, I think.  The quality of the pizze was what suffered, not the owner's pocket.
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: Mo on March 01, 2010, 01:57:11 PM
In my 2amys days, the most pizze we ever had in the oven was 18.  It took a lot of shuffling and juggling. The temperature would swing wildly..we would have the oven stuffed like that for hours, and even though it was difficult, took many people to pull off, etc..  We could easily produce 200 mediocre pizze per hour.

This was a woodstone Mt. Baker-strictly wood fueled.  I am not recommending the oven, but stating that high production levels can be achieved with anything, I think.  The quality of the pizze was what suffered, not the owner's pocket.

18 in a Mt Baker? Incredible! I've only tried to go to 8 in our 140x160cm Valoriani. We turn tables quickly enough with 10 minute ticket times at our most saturated. In this town, people are accustomed to waiting 30 minutes just to get a table somewhere, so 10 minutes from order time to food on the table at 7:00 on a Friday is looking pretty good.


Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: shango on March 01, 2010, 02:12:15 PM
At Bebo I used a Cirigliano Forni, at RedRocks, a Renato, At Ciro a Woodstone, at Al Forno A Woodstone gas/wood assist with under floor burner, (garbage), Used a Mugnani several times at a friends house, and a Forno Bravo a few times.. Not to mention a homemade pompeii or two.. Used a built on site at Fratelli la Buffala too, don't know who made it..

For my own place, I acquired a real Neapolitan oven. 

 :chef:
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: pizzanapoletana on March 02, 2010, 05:21:38 AM
One last post that should summarise the issue for me.

Edan with your 130 cm oven (if I remember correctly) and the right experienced team, with 6 pizze at the time you can cook potentialy 360 pizze an hour, all cooked perfectly with the help of the oven.

As you stated, not only by cooking 18 at the time you di not get to the above output, but those were also mediocre pizza.

More importantly, so far in America, people that have similar experience of non neapolitan vs neapolitan, have already expressed their opinion on the change, namely Settebello in Las Vegas, Il Pizzaiolo in Pittsbugh, and Motorino in NYC... So these people runs businesses and have come to the same conclusion, but I guess there is still reason to be sceptical of a marketing ploy ;-)
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: pcampbell on March 02, 2010, 07:02:43 AM
;D very interesting discussion !!  ;D

iam posting a link, but iam not jugging the quality of the pizza, just the speed... and how may pizzas where in the oven at the same time...

http://www.youtube.com/user/andreguidon#p/f/27/FNiDsgb78T4

 i like that... 8 in 4 minutes...
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: shango on March 02, 2010, 09:08:58 AM
One last post that should summarise the issue for me.

Edan with your 130 cm oven (if I remember correctly) and the right experienced team, with 6 pizze at the time you can cook potentialy 360 pizze an hour, all cooked perfectly with the help of the oven.

As you stated, not only by cooking 18 at the time you di not get to the above output, but those were also mediocre pizza.

More importantly, so far in America, people that have similar experience of non neapolitan vs neapolitan, have already expressed their opinion on the change, namely Settebello in Las Vegas, Il Pizzaiolo in Pittsbugh, and Motorino in NYC... So these people runs businesses and have come to the same conclusion, but I guess there is still reason to be sceptical of a marketing ploy ;-)

Well, in all fairness, at the time 2amys only had about a hundred seats, we could have produced more pizze hourly, but it was hard to turn tables any faster..

Having said that, what is important, and what I said intentionally in my previous post.  "mediocre pizza".  (although honestly, people in DC love that place)

Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: pizzanapoletana on March 02, 2010, 02:59:46 PM
;D very interesting discussion !!  ;D

iam posting a link, but iam not jugging the quality of the pizza, just the speed... and how may pizzas where in the oven at the same time...

http://www.youtube.com/user/andreguidon#p/f/27/FNiDsgb78T4

Andre,

I just watched the video


8 x 29cm pizza. I would do 6 x 35cm... Still a 130cm oven give you that capacity.
The guy was doing all by imself in 3.50. You need at least 2 more assistants (better 3) to turn up the volumes I was talking about. I said many time, that the FORNAIO is a job by itself in Naples, and whilst all "pizzaiuoli" have started as Fornaio, many fornaio never graduates and makes it to the pizza making table.

There are other comments to be made but hopefully you can understand my point.
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: andreguidon on March 02, 2010, 03:32:08 PM
Hi Marco, sure i understand... just posted a video, cause it was very interesting seeing one guy doing all that... and there was no burned pizzas... again not commenting on the quality...
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: pizzanapoletana on March 02, 2010, 05:14:21 PM
Hi Marco, sure i understand... just posted a video, cause it was very interesting seeing one guy doing all that... and there was no burned pizzas... again not commenting on the quality...

the pizze were not burned because the oven was running much cooler tha we run it at franco manca... the guy can clearly bee seen adding a piece of wood and still there was no light in the oven.......


Edit:

Evidence on the temp
1.32 min first pizza goes in.
3.04 min first pizza comes out.
That is 92 seconds or 1.32 mins


Not commenting on quality is fine, but the final product is affected....
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: andreguidon on March 02, 2010, 05:35:51 PM
i agree, but could it be done right ? (one guy doing every thing).... this is just curiosity... and is that a Neapolitan oven ?

and Marco, you go 35cm, what is your dough ball weight ? (i know is done by eye, but a approximated number)

thanks for all the info. !!

André
 
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: pizzanapoletana on March 03, 2010, 04:23:02 AM
i agree, but could it be done right ? (one guy doing every thing).... this is just curiosity... and is that a Neapolitan oven ?

and Marco, you go 35cm, what is your dough ball weight ? (i know is done by eye, but a approximated number)

thanks for all the info. !!

André
 

Of Course it can be done as the guy at that rhythm will be turning 140 pizza an hour, mostly mediocre pizza. I think until I post a video of Franco Manca at peak all this are just words... It looks like a neapolitan imitation and I believe I know who made it because we have to replace a similar one in the province north of Naples after Easter.


My panielli are north of 250g, never less that that.

And, I may have mentioned this before, but in Naples, when the pizzeria open early in the morning, they re-form the dough balls from the day before in smaller balls and bake 10-12 small 25 cm pizza at the time while the oven was being rewarmed in the morning. Topped only with tomatoes and basil and occasionally 2 cubes of mozzarella. Those pizza are sold to students going to school off a glass display on the street. When I was a kid those were sold for 1000 Lire or about 50 cents of Euro of today..
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: andreguidon on March 03, 2010, 05:18:52 AM
yea, my mother in law  is from Naples, and she always tells me that story about the cheap pizza sold in the morning...

thanks Marco !!
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: andreguidon on March 03, 2010, 07:04:12 AM
found some videos of franco manca on youtube... the pizzas look very good !!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOHRC63WCmQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwGnGSQENK8

Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: David on March 03, 2010, 10:43:20 AM
PFT posted this link elsewhere and no one has commented on it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-91RvTXHm_E&feature=PlayList&p=4257558839BBBD51&index=2

He mention Marco and raises some  points regarding Neapolitan ovens.
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: Infoodel on March 03, 2010, 11:11:21 AM
Can't believe no-one mentioned this:
making pizza (at Franco Manca)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6Y-uSeYaQQ
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: pizzanapoletana on March 03, 2010, 11:41:04 AM
I do not haver access to media streeming until later today, so can someone confirm or tell me more on the following, so I can reply with accurate information:

1) What are the two videos that Andre posted shows?

2) David's links: Does it refer to a video of PF Taylor giving a presentation? Does he mention me with regards to Neapolitan emigrants and does it mention Ovens in Humid environment?(many inaccuracy.... so if it is the case I will clarify )

3) The video by infodel: Is it a tall guy with the bear and a bandana on the head? IF so that is Rafa, now a very good Fornaio and the video was not shot off service....... He is not the pizzamaker even though is now learning that aspect as well...

Thanks
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: andreguidon on March 03, 2010, 11:43:53 AM
Hi Marco, the videos ive posted are just customers eating pizza....

PFTs video is the presentation one yes...

infodeel posted exactly the video you mentioned, is Rafa brazilian ??
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: Infoodel on March 03, 2010, 12:00:33 PM
.
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: pizzanapoletana on March 03, 2010, 12:04:25 PM
Hi Marco, the videos ive posted are just customers eating pizza....

PFTs video is the presentation one yes...

infodeel posted exactly the video you mentioned, is Rafa brazilian ??

Thanks,

Then :

1- No comment as I have not seen it before.

2- I respect the passion of PFt and the leap he took in opening a pizzeria and I thank him for the mention but he would have been better to say from who and where he learned the majority of stuff (as he confirmed in writing a while ago) and not only on pizzaioli emigration... More importantly the quote on humidity could not have been worst: We once exchanged PMs because he wanted to buy an authentic Neapolitan oven for his garden and I told him it was not ideal because of the humidity and the rain. These are professional ovens designed for indoor use in pizzerias. Apparently there is a Neapolitan oven in Tampa and they operate with no problem inside a pizzeria . What is more, the brother of the owner of Donna Margherita in London -UK was in Tampa helping opening up that place at the time and confirmed how better our ovens at Donna Margherita is ;-). I appreciate people need to build up marketing stories but I believe they also need to keep it real.... In any case the good thing is that there is someone else offering artisans pizza against the chain in USA.

3-Rafa is Brazilian and he learned very well as a Fornaio.. To be honest the best Fornai I have ever seen or taught outside Naples were one Argentinian and the other is Rafa. No problem in posting it Infodel, just clarifying to avoid as happened early on in this post and others, then people may start assessing the speed, the quality etc...
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: GotRocks on March 03, 2010, 12:10:28 PM
Marco, I was really hoping that you would be able to offer some unbiased information in relation to other brands of commercial WFO's that are also available. Instead it appears that if you do not have a personal financial stake involved, they will all be referred to as pieces of junk that will not work for anyone cooking anything anywhere.

I apologize for the rude tone of this post, but after reading several pages of archived threads on this matter, that is exactly what I have found.

At first I thought there was something being lost in translation, but I gues that was not it either.

Have you ever heard the saying "You'll catch more flies with honey than you will with vinegar"? Some people here (me Especially) have absolutely no intention of bringing in oven building materials and builders from Italy to have an oven constructed at their location. By helping some of us weed through the several other oven manufacturers available, and helping us choose another manufacturers oven instead of just saying bad things about them. you may gain our trust a little more, and when it comes time to expand our operation, or open a 2nd location we would look to you for that 2nd oven because of your help in choosing a first oven that may or may not be from the company that you represent.
If you do not have personal experience with other brands of ovens some may ask about, just say so, but offer an unbiased breakdown of why you feel it will not work, or why it is a fuel hog, or why the temps are difficult to manage.
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: Mo on March 03, 2010, 12:54:32 PM
Is catching the pizza on fire part of the training or is that something he came up with on his own? Seriously, though, quite a little fire in that little oven. Looked to be right at 60 seconds for that pie.

Also impressive was the 8 pizze in under five minutes guy, flying solo. My guy George and I are working on our youtube answer to that one...


Mo.

Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: David on March 03, 2010, 01:47:29 PM
Sadly IMO it seems that there is too much attention spent on how fast / many pizzas you can cook at one time,than there is regarding how the toppings are applied and whether or not the pizza is cooked properly.The final quality is surely more important than the volume/speed.I understand that time is money as is the need to turn tables,but quality and consistency should be paramount I believe.From my observations any time I've seen more than three at a time in a sufficiently hot oven,the outcome has often been compromised,and I'm not talking about places that simply do Margherita's and Marinara's.When you have an oven full of pizzas that can range from a Capricciosa or Calzone on down it can be a minefield,and requires total focus.Yes there are very skilled and capable fornaio out there,but I just think it is somewhat misleading to believe that you can do the volumes mentioned here and expect a high level of consistency, particularly without a good,focused, well trained team.Yes the Neapolitans have been doing this for Decades,but outside of there and on these shores it's relatively new.If you are doing hundreds a day with one oven be grateful.If you are doing hundreds an hour,pay your guys a decent wage,hope they never go sick and keep saying your prayers at night .
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: pizzanapoletana on March 03, 2010, 01:51:10 PM
Mo,

That video was shot a while ago, and as you may know the fire is caused when the excessive oil from the pizza may drop on the hot oven floor.

Gotrocks,


Before, even ever getting involved with any manufacturer of oven I already stated that a Neapolitan oven is a MUST for certain products. You just turned up and start accusing me of unbiased partying.. But I actually got involved with Forno Napoletano because I wanted the best oven for my clients. Any fees that I earn from sales of ovens are still below to my income as consultant by a long shoot... I look for quality cooking and an oven that can help the client doing his job and output good quality products and HAVE NOT found a prefab one being able to do that, and I do have experience with many of the brands mentioned on this forum, even an American one I tried installed in an house in PA. Some physics question for you: if you over feed air to a fire, does it burn more fuel (think of the turbo in cars)? As heat goes up, does a higher dome means that the heath is further up from the floor? if you need contact heats does a larger heated mass with better heating retaining properties help you maintain heat over time? Do you want the best possible refractory element like used in the metal or glass industry for a pizza oven or do you want a materials that has some of the same quality but additionally has others that a pure refractory and reflectively insulated materials lacks????

I have also posted info on people that have made that choice rather then me telling them, and they have openly compared Neapolitan vs not Neapolitan, so NO, I cannot help you finding a prefab oven that just in case would be suitable for Pizza Napoletana in the future, because it does not exist. If you want to do another product then for 2-3 minutes pies and above, people like MO or other have posted their experience that can probably help you. From my point of view, a prefab has also a shorter life issue that is covered by the cheap cost I guess.

David,

Agreed! But a good fornaio should also know that a capricciosa is positioned in a part of the oven and a margherita and marinara somewhere else
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: David on March 03, 2010, 01:58:06 PM


Agreed! But a good fornaio should also know that a capricciosa is positioned in a part of the oven and a margherita and marinara somewhere else


Even a novice...... ;)
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: TXCraig1 on March 03, 2010, 02:20:51 PM
Marco,

What is the typical diameter and dome height of a Forno Napoletano oven?

Craig
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: Mo on March 03, 2010, 02:44:58 PM
Sadly IMO it seems that there is too much attention spent on how fast / many pizzas you can cook at one time,than there is regarding how the toppings are applied and whether or not the pizza is cooked properly.The final quality is surely more important than the volume/speed.I understand that time is money as is the need to turn tables,but quality and consistency should be paramount I believe.From my observations any time I've seen more than three at a time in a sufficiently hot oven,the outcome has often been compromised,and I'm not talking about places that simply do Margherita's and Marinara's.When you have an oven full of pizzas that can range from a Capricciosa or Calzone on down it can be a minefield,and requires total focus.Yes there are very skilled and capable fornaio out there,but I just think it is somewhat misleading to believe that you can do the volumes mentioned here and expect a high level of consistency, particularly without a good,focused, well trained team.Yes the Neapolitans have been doing this for Decades,but outside of there and on these shores it's relatively new.If you are doing hundreds a day with one oven be grateful.If you are doing hundreds an hour,pay your guys a decent wage,hope they never go sick and keep saying your prayers at night .

A discussion of consistency/quality vs. speed began at reply #124....
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: Mo on March 03, 2010, 02:47:07 PM
Mo,

That video was shot a while ago, and as you may know the fire is caused when the excessive oil from the pizza may drop on the hot oven floor.

No doubt, but it's still funny cos I think that fire stayed with him a bit longer than he would have liked....
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: pizzanapoletana on March 03, 2010, 03:11:49 PM
Marco,

What is the typical diameter and dome height of a Forno Napoletano oven?

Craig

the diameter have been discussed. the height is somthing that master builder do not discuss but is visible lower then any prefab out there.
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: Mo on March 03, 2010, 05:01:31 PM
the height is somthing that master builder do not discuss but is visible lower then any prefab out there.

Is that what you tell prospective clients when they are asking for technical data on the ovens you rep? So, if somebody says "I looked at xyz brand and it is 16" from the centre of the floor to the dome, how high is the dome of your oven?" do you say "the master builder does not reveal that information"? Or do you give them a range, say, "higher than 11 inches but lower than 13"? Is it acceptable to pantomime the measurement? Charades?

I mean, is it really some kind of secret? It's a measurement, quantifiable, verifiable, observable data, not voodoo. 

I'm sorry but I just don't get why you feel the need to wrap these things in some air of mystery like it's the location of the Lost City of Atlantis...

Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: shango on March 03, 2010, 06:42:56 PM
It's called intellectual property, or sometimes, IP.  If you think it doesn't have value, try making the sequel to James Cameron's Avatar without his permission.

It really doesn't matter to me, but if you don't like the way somebody does business, or the fact that they won't share information with you, don't deal with them. 

Hasn't this thread pretty much run it's course? 
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: Mo on March 03, 2010, 07:21:52 PM
It's called intellectual property, or sometimes, IP.  If you think it doesn't have value, try making the sequel to James Cameron's Avatar without his permission.

It really doesn't matter to me, but if you don't like the way somebody does business, or the fact that they won't share information with you, don't deal with them. 

Hasn't this thread pretty much run it's course? 

Just about every manufacturer of any product has something called a spec sheet or cut sheet listing basic dimensions of their equipment. Now, if someone starts producing a product that is identical to one already being produced, then enter the claim to rights of IP, so forth. My question concerns how a potential consumer can become informed of the relative merits of different equipment and was posed to the one that is representing a manufacturer on this thread. I'm sure he can either address or ignore the question as he wishes...
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: shuboyje on March 03, 2010, 10:42:46 PM
Does a painter give you specs on a painting? A sculptor on their statue?  What you seem to be missing in this entire thread is that these ovens are works of art created by craftsmen.  A perfect mixture of form and function that have been designed over hundreds of years of use.  On top of that Marco has already answered many of these questions with generalized answers in the past and if you would take the time to read every relevant post he has made like some of us have you would see that.
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: Mo on March 04, 2010, 12:02:32 AM
Does a painter give you specs on a painting? A sculptor on their statue?  What you seem to be missing in this entire thread is that these ovens are works of art created by craftsmen.  A perfect mixture of form and function that have been designed over hundreds of years of use.  On top of that Marco has already answered many of these questions with generalized answers in the past and if you would take the time to read every relevant post he has made like some of us have you would see that.

With all due respect, nobody on this site thinks twice about asking detailed questions about specifics on everything from how they make their dough to where they get their checkered tablecloths. Why is this any different? This thread is in the Shop Talk section, dealing, presumably, with issues relating to operating a pizza making business. So far, I think the questions posed by myself and others are within the reasonable range of subject matter.

To be clear, I am not the one asking about the specific dimensions, rather I am merely scratching my virtual head in bewilderment at the answers given to questions asked by others...This forum is for discussion, is it not?

Perhaps Shango is right. This thread may be approaching rampant silliness...

Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: pizzanapoletana on March 04, 2010, 04:52:09 AM
Hopefully this will be my last post in this particular thread. We can be sarcastic, try to climb mirrors etc, so the round up for me is:

A Neapolitan oven is an artisan products, not a factory made one and does not have a manufacturer but an artisan (I may have myself use the wrong definition in the past, apologies). Neapolitan pizza makers have always gone back to their artisan for a new oven, a floor replacement, a change of location or the opening of a new branch. Now that Pizza Napoletana is being promoted in a more original form around the world, we have people with different background approaching this product and without the experiences passed on by an old master, have difficulties understanding why certain choices have always been made. The three floor dimension have been mentioned over many times, of 105, 120 and 130 cm approximately (the floor are hand made in forms measured in Neapolitan palms and therefore the actual sizes have tolerances of few cm…_. Height, shape of dome (more or less curved), and specific construction tricks are not disclosed and are irrelevant for our traditional clients. The spec sheet that is sent to client have what we believe are relevant information for the installation of the oven. Why? Because the buyer of a Neapolitan oven want that product and does not need to compare it to a prefab. You would then say (as you are sceptical and producing “fantastic” pizza with your prefab one), how do I know that the differences benefit me? Simple! By investigating the actual products (pizza) that comes out of either oven. What do you investigate if you are not using the oven yourself? By observing the pizza you can see the amount of heat it received from the top and from the bottom, the cooking time, and by observing the people work, how much intervention they had to do. More importantly by talking to people that unfortunately had gone the prefab or other brick built way, before having to demolish it and replace. They can give the more convincing answers IMO as they have wasted the money and can tell others to avoid doing so. Now that information is already out there.

This thread was asking about Neapolitan ovens, and I have posted some clarifications. If those are not good enough for you or others, unfortunately there is no much more I can do, as I know  can never convince a sceptical that is content with a different output. IMO; there are people that want to exploit the property of an authentic oven to turn out outstanding products and there are others, unfortunately many around the world, that use “Wood Fired” as a marketing ploy, often associating it with some kind of messages that re-calls Naples and/or Neapolitan pizza.

There are electric ovens that can output a 2.30 – 3.00 minutes pizza and are easier to manage that wood fired ovens if someone want to go that route
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: seerad on March 04, 2010, 09:38:18 AM
I have followed this thread and read through what each person says.  

I completely understand what Marco is saying.  For a traditional neapolitan pizza, it is necessary for the oven to be built and constructed at the location it is to be used by an artisan, because let's face it, you can't run the mona lisa through a manufacturing plant, it's about the brush strokes that went into making it.

I do however have an issue.  I know that Tony Gemignani is currently the only person to win both baking and acrobatic titles at Italy's World Pizza Championships as well as holding numerous titles of World Pizza Champion in the Neapolitan pizza held in Naples, as well as now being the President of the World Pizza Championship, Inc.  He is also the first master instructor in the United States having become a certified master at the Scuola Italiana Pizzaioli.

It sounds like he knows something about pizza, specifically Neapolitan Pizza as he does run the only pizza school in the united states.
He exclusively uses Cirigliano Forni wood-fired pizza ovens in his restaurants and in the school he founded for his wood-fired line.
You can learn more at internationalschoolofpizza.com/about.php

Again, I'm sure that Marco knows what he's talking about, but perhaps some of the prefabs are made by artisans passing along tradition over 3 generations (Cirigiliano Forni) I can't speak for any other pizza oven brands out there as these are the ovens that we use and are familiar with.
But it would seem as though Tony might need to have a say in this.

If it's good enough for Tony, it's good enough for me.
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: pizzanapoletana on March 04, 2010, 10:07:57 AM
I have followed this thread and read through what each person says.  

I completely understand what Marco is saying.  For a traditional neapolitan pizza, it is necessary for the oven to be built and constructed at the location it is to be used by an artisan, because let's face it, you can't run the mona lisa through a manufacturing plant, it's about the brush strokes that went into making it.

I do however have an issue.  I know that Tony Gemignani is currently the only person to win both baking and acrobatic titles at Italy's World Pizza Championships as well as holding numerous titles of World Pizza Champion in the Neapolitan pizza held in Naples, as well as now being the President of the World Pizza Championship, Inc.  He is also the first master instructor in the United States having become a certified master at the Scuola Italiana Pizzaioli.

It sounds like he knows something about pizza, specifically Neapolitan Pizza as he does run the only pizza school in the united states.
He exclusively uses Cirigliano Forni wood-fired pizza ovens in his restaurants and in the school he founded for his wood-fired line.
You can learn more at internationalschoolofpizza.com/about.php

Again, I'm sure that Marco knows what he's talking about, but perhaps some of the prefabs are made by artisans passing along tradition over 3 generations (Cirigiliano Forni) I can't speak for any other pizza oven brands out there as these are the ovens that we use and are familiar with.
But it would seem as though Tony might need to have a say in this.

If it's good enough for Tony, it's good enough for me.


All due respect to third parties but:

The competitions on neapolitan pizza, titlets etc are a whole other subjects. (edit for other posts).. I have heard feedback from sponsors and organisers of those events that made be re-evaluate my desire to compete for publicity to be honest. I personally partecipated once to a competition as I had been invited by the organiser. I did my dough to be ready at 13.00 but was only called at 16.30. It was 40 degree celsius and we were in an outside tent were there was no means of protecting the temperature and my dough was ruined,  it then stuck onto the peel and was also deformed, it came up a terrible pizza, which I would have judged last having seen the others... I was still ranked in the midlle top ....

Back to the subjects of ovens, there is a video of Tony cooking on his oven, for all to judge the elements I mentioned earlier and the bottom line is that in Naples (CITY) no-one use those ovens, no one.

For any other products (I mean pizza), I am sure Tony is more then qualified and experienced then I can possibly be.

Ciao
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: andreguidon on March 04, 2010, 11:35:12 AM
for sure that dough ball is over 250g... look more like 400g.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InDwfZmSikI

Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: cornicione54 on March 04, 2010, 12:46:42 PM
Quote
Does a painter give you specs on a painting? A sculptor on their statue?  What you seem to be missing in this entire thread is that these ovens are works of art created by craftsmen.  A perfect mixture of form and function that have been designed over hundreds of years of use.

Quote
For a traditional neapolitan pizza, it is necessary for the oven to be built and constructed at the location it is to be used by an artisan, because let's face it, you can't run the mona lisa through a manufacturing plant, it's about the brush strokes that went into making it.

It's an oven not the Venus de Milo. If it performs well and bakes to spec, then great but please enough with the over-romanticized BS.  ::)

You think Naples pizzaiolos and fornai give a %$# about how 'artisanal' the oven is? No, I'm pretty sure they want the best tool to do a demanding job. Fair play to Marco, and other contributors on this thread for explaining what that involves.
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: seerad on March 04, 2010, 01:36:13 PM
Quote
It's an oven not the Venus de Milo. If it performs well and bakes to spec, then great but please enough with the over-romanticized BS. 

You think Naples pizzaiolos and fornai give a %$#& about how 'artisanal' the oven is? No, I'm pretty sure they want the best tool to do a demanding job. Fair play to Marco, and other contributors on this thread for explaining what that involves.

I was more or less utilizing sarcasm in my description.  I agree with what you are saying.
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: David on March 04, 2010, 03:57:37 PM
It sounds like he knows something about pizza, specifically Neapolitan Pizza as he does run the only pizza school in the united states.

That is not so.There are a number of options open to people who wish to learn.
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: shango on March 04, 2010, 04:32:56 PM
Looking at the dough stretching technique, and the oven, I would think that there are actually much better options.. No offense Tony.
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: BrickStoneOven on March 05, 2010, 11:45:06 PM

2- I respect the passion of PFt and the leap he took in opening a pizzeria and I thank him for the mention but he would have been better to say from who and where he learned the majority of stuff (as he confirmed in writing a while ago) and not only on pizzaioli emigration... More importantly the quote on humidity could not have been worst: We once exchanged PMs because he wanted to buy an authentic Neapolitan oven for his garden and I told him it was not ideal because of the humidity and the rain. These are professional ovens designed for indoor use in pizzerias. Apparently there is a Neapolitan oven in Tampa and they operate with no problem inside a pizzeria . What is more, the brother of the owner of Donna Margherita in London -UK was in Tampa helping opening up that place at the time and confirmed how better our ovens at Donna Margherita is ;-). I appreciate people need to build up marketing stories but I believe they also need to keep it real.... In any case the good thing is that there is someone else offering artisans pizza against the chain in USA.

The oven that is in Tampa is at Pizzaiolo Bavaro and it is a Stefano Ferrara mobile oven. Here is a video of his pizzeria. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bW-BXirBS1M. I have been talking to the owner Dan Bavaro and he is a really nice guy.
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: Matthew on March 06, 2010, 06:53:40 AM
The oven that is in Tampa is at Pizzaiolo Bavaro and it is a Stefano Ferrara mobile oven. Here is a video of his pizzeria. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bW-BXirBS1M. I have been talking to the owner Dan Bavaro and he is a really nice guy.

Dan is related to Stefano, If my memory serves me correctly, Stefano is his uncle.

Matt
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: BrickStoneOven on March 06, 2010, 09:06:15 AM
That's cool he said he helped them with sales in the US so maybe you are right.
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: David on March 23, 2010, 02:00:35 PM
http://pupatella.blogspot.com/

"So, I went to the county inspection  office yesterday to see what they think about our construction plans.  Turns out, it is a big deal to have an Italian wood-fired oven installed.  They want me to pay $4,500 to have it inspected by UL (Underwriters Labs).  Ouch!  That oven ends up costing us about $15,000 without installation.  It's a lot, but we don't want to buy any other one, because Forno Napoletano ovens bake absolutely the best pizzas, even in Naples. They have a special low-dome construction and excellent heat insulation. "
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: BrickStoneOven on April 27, 2010, 11:10:32 AM
Just found this really cool. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPmscDXinVU
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: gabaghool on January 06, 2012, 06:40:48 PM
My god........
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: gabaghool on January 12, 2012, 06:43:26 PM
Italians....gotta love em...EVERYTHING is drama..............and I am 1000% italian, but sometimes.....we can be so exasperating
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: pizzablogger on January 13, 2012, 10:46:37 AM
Italians....gotta love em...EVERYTHING is drama..............and I am 1000% italian, but sometimes.....we can be so exasperating


Ya think?  ;D
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: gabaghool on January 20, 2012, 05:35:34 PM
 :-D  I KNOW....omg........
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: gfscot on July 05, 2012, 11:01:30 AM
Looking at getting training and doing a Neapolitan style pizzeria within the next two years .I am looking at training with a Neapolitan  pizza maker and have an idea of that cost.I just don't have any idea of what i need to budget for the oven .

If you want a custom built- hand built Neapolitan oven go to www.brickovensforsale. They build true wood and gas fired ovens.
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: TXCraig1 on July 05, 2012, 11:21:03 AM
If you want a custom built- hand built Neapolitan oven go to www.brickovensforsale. They build true wood and gas fired ovens.


Why do you refer to your business as "they" and not "we?"
Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: gfscot on July 05, 2012, 11:43:44 AM
If you want a custom built- hand built Neapolitan oven go to www.brickovensforsalecom. We  build true wood and gas fired ovens. World wide!!


Title: Re: cost of purchasing a true Neapolitan pizza oven ?
Post by: shuboyje on July 05, 2012, 12:19:34 PM
There is nothing Neapolitan about those ovens other then the fact they are wood fired and made of brick.