Pizza Making Forum

Reviews & Opinions => Pizzeria & Restaurant Reviews => Topic started by: norma427 on November 26, 2016, 09:06:13 PM

Title: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on November 26, 2016, 09:06:13 PM

My oldest daughter and I took a trip to Staten Island today to visit my daughter and family.  I asked my oldest daughter if we could stop at Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, after we left my youngest daughters, because I have wanted to try their pizzas for awhile.  We also stopped at the La Bella Marketplace in Staten Island and got some goodies there. 

I was amazed at how good Joe and Pat's slices were.  For my tastes I think that is the perfect pizza.  The reason I say that is because it is almost sauced out to the rim.  The crust is almost like a cracker style, but yet really isn't.  The mozzarella was delicious and the sweet red sauce was great.  The cupping pepperoni really was delicious, and might have been the best cupping pepperoni I have ever tasted.  The bottom crusts were just the right amount of crispness.  The slices were very thin and so easy to eat.  I only got two slices because we already ate at my daughter's not to long before we left.  My daughter didn't try any slices.

I watched as the pie men pounded on the dough before opening it.  The one pie man said I could take a video of him tossing and twirling a dough.  I wasn't ready for that and got confused in changing my camera from photos to a video.  That is why there are going to be two videos. 

The mozzarella was put on the pie in cubes.  The oven that was used to baked the pizzas was a Fish oven.  It sure baked those pizzas well.  I never watched how a Fish oven operated before and that sure was exciting to see. I watched as the pie men sliced different pizzas and the crunch could be heard each time they were cut the whole way across the pizzas. 

These are videos found on Youtube of Joe & Pat's Pizzeria.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZBsc-NReFU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qg9GIl7A0JM
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on November 26, 2016, 09:12:56 PM
I sure wish I could make the same pizzas at market.  8)  On the first video the pie man had already tossed and twirled the dough, but then I couldn't see if I was taking a video or a photo.  The man was very patient with me and waited until I got the camera to take a video.  After he was finished he threw that dough into the trash.  I wish I could have taken that dough home.

https://youtu.be/P1Fnuj4QnQM 

https://youtu.be/8zyJDFRGV3k 

Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: mitchjg on November 26, 2016, 09:33:59 PM
Norma: Their pizza takes nothing away from yours.  They are just different.

I must say, though, that their pizza really, really looks good....... :drool:  Wow, so thin!
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on November 26, 2016, 09:56:00 PM
Norma: Their pizza takes nothing away from yours.  They are just different.

I must say, though, that their pizza really, really looks good....... :drool:  Wow, so thin!

Mitch,

Thanks for your kind comment! 

I must say Joe & Pat's pizza blows mine away.  :-D Yes, it was really thin. 

Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: hotsawce on November 27, 2016, 01:40:41 AM
Norma,

So excited you finally had the chance to try Joe & Pats. It is one of my favorites (along with Rubirosa) and I have a thread dedicated to their pies in NY style. Many people say NY style is the evolution of Neapolitan; the moment I tried these pies I thought they were the evolution of Roman style brought to the states. Thin, crispy, tender, sauced to the edge...one of my all time favorites. I have a lot of details and research from my visits at Rubirosa and how long they bake for in the Fish ovens. I'm trying to modify these pies for wood fired as I think the fish bakes them evenly but dries them out a bit, but boy are these amazing pizzas. The mozzarella (low moisture on the classic pies) are cubed rather than diced. Sauce in unadulterated and it's just so good for how simple the pies are. The vodka pie at Rubi is just as good but uses fresh mozzarella.

I have my own recipe for this style of pizza that's come pretty close but it's really the unsung hero of NY style. It's so different from anything else out there and I think it's a crowd pleaser. It's somewhere between NY style and coal oven and truly a unique style of pizza that deserves more attention!
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on November 27, 2016, 08:43:06 AM
Norma,

So excited you finally had the chance to try Joe & Pats. It is one of my favorites (along with Rubirosa) and I have a thread dedicated to their pies in NY style. Many people say NY style is the evolution of Neapolitan; the moment I tried these pies I thought they were the evolution of Roman style brought to the states. Thin, crispy, tender, sauced to the edge...one of my all time favorites. I have a lot of details and research from my visits at Rubirosa and how long they bake for in the Fish ovens. I'm trying to modify these pies for wood fired as I think the fish bakes them evenly but dries them out a bit, but boy are these amazing pizzas. The mozzarella (low moisture on the classic pies) are cubed rather than diced. Sauce in unadulterated and it's just so good for how simple the pies are. The vodka pie at Rubi is just as good but uses fresh mozzarella.

I have my own recipe for this style of pizza that's come pretty close but it's really the unsung hero of NY style. It's so different from anything else out there and I think it's a crowd pleaser. It's somewhere between NY style and coal oven and truly a unique style of pizza that deserves more attention!

Lou,

Glad you chimed in.  I was following your thread at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=45452.msg455085#msg455085  but really what stood out to me was that you were trying out Roman American pies in a wood-fire oven.  I didn't play any attention to your mentions of Joe and Pat's, or Rubirosa because I never was at either of those pizzerias. 

I had wanted to taste Joe & Pat's for a long while.  Adam Kuban told me to try them someday.  It has been in my mind since awhile ago to try them.  When my oldest daughter said she was going to visit my daughter I looked how far Joe & Pat's was from where my youngest daughter lives.  Google Maps said it was only 11 minutes away from where she lived by car. 

What really excited me, among many things, was how crispy the bottom crust stayed while eating the two slices.  Some of the other things were how thin the slices were and how evenly balanced the taste was across the 2 slices.  The pepperoni was to die for too.   :drool:

Rubirosa

Doughs low gluten levels and a secret ingredient, and if the sideshow is clicked through many photos and comments are mentioned.

http://blog.openingceremony.com/entry.asp?pid=5292 

I also looked up what I could find out about Rubirosa.

I wonder if somehow I could bake a pizza like Joe & Pat's in the deck oven at market.  The stretching the skin so evenly to the edges would really be hard for me. 

I agree about how amazing the pizzas are.  ;D Thanks for saying the mozzarella is low moisture.  I saw the tub of cubed mozzarella.  I wonder what brand of low moisture mozzarella they are using. 

Are you going to share your recipe on your thread?  I asked the man stretching the dough how many minutes it took to bake the pizzas at Joe & Pat's.  He said about 8 minutes.  Is that something you know, or is it a shorter bake time?

Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: invertedisdead on November 27, 2016, 09:07:47 AM
Lou,

Glad you chimed in.  I was following your thread at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=45452.msg455085#msg455085  but really what stood out to me was that you were trying out Roman American pies in a wood-fire oven.  I didn't play any attention to your mentions of Joe and Pat's, or Rubirosa because I never was at either of those pizzerias. 

I had wanted to taste Joe & Pat's for a long while.  Adam Kuban told me to try them someday.  It has been in my mind since awhile ago to try them.  When my oldest daughter said she was going to visit my daughter I looked how far Joe & Pat's was from where my youngest daughter lives.  Google Maps said it was only 11 minutes away from where she lived by car. 

What really excited me, among many things, was how crispy the bottom crust stayed while eating the two slices.  Some of the other things were how thin the slices were and how evenly balanced the taste was across the 2 slices.  The pepperoni was to die for too.   :drool:

Rubirosa

Doughs low gluten levels and a secret ingredient, and if the sideshow is clicked through many photos and comments are mentioned.

http://blog.openingceremony.com/entry.asp?pid=5292 

I also looked up what I could find out about Rubirosa.

I wonder if somehow I could bake a pizza like Joe & Pat's in the deck oven at market.  The stretching the skin so evenly to the edges would really be hard for me. 

I agree about how amazing the pizzas are.  ;D Thanks for saying the mozzarella is low moisture.  I saw the tub of cubed mozzarella.  I wonder what brand of low moisture mozzarella they are using. 

Are you going to share your recipe on your thread?  I asked the man stretching the dough how many minutes it took to bake the pizzas at Joe & Pat's.  He said about 8 minutes.  Is that something you know, or is it a shorter bake time?

Norma

Norma,

You could try Tom Lehmann's opening technique of rolling the dough out half way and finish hand stretching. Judging by the amount of effort the pie men put into opening the dough, it reminds me of a recent 52% hydration dough I did. Those lower hydration doughs open pretty evenly.

Ryan
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on November 27, 2016, 09:20:11 AM
Norma,

You could try Tom Lehmann's opening technique of rolling the dough out half way and finish hand stretching. Judging by the amount of effort the pie men put into opening the dough, it reminds me of a recent 52% hydration dough I did. Those lower hydration doughs open pretty evenly.

Ryan

Ryan,

I had thought about rolling out the dough half way and then trying to hand stretch.  How evenly their dough is stretched to the edges would be tough for me.  Did your 52% hydration dough did it contain a fair amout of oil?  I saw somehwere that they use a lower protein flour.  To be able to toss the dough like that man did yesterday there would need to be some strength in that dough, or it might have been he was so skilled in tossing and twirling that made that skin so evenly thin.

Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: HarryHaller73 on November 27, 2016, 09:28:01 AM

Many people say NY style is the evolution of Neapolitan; the moment I tried these pies I thought they were the evolution of Roman style brought to the states. Thin, crispy, tender, sauced to the edge..

There were several waves of Italian immigrants to the states from the early 20th century to after WW2.  It should be known however that Italy was and still is a multicultural nation made up of very distinct regions.  I would also note that tavern style pizzerias such as Joe and Pats, Lee's, and Denino's along with those in central Jersey like DeLorenzo's and up north in New Haven, CT at Pepe's were started by immigrants from Naples and differs from the lineage of the NY deck oven style pizzas post WW2 which were primarily Sicilian immigrants.  Gary Bimonte's grandfather of Pepe's was from Naples, as is Rick DeLorenzo's family and so are Joe and Gennaro Pappalardo of Joe and Pat's. 

Having visited both Rome and Naples many times since the 80's, the thin round Roman pie of today is actually a derivative of the original Neapolitan style pizza that was served for over a hundred years.  There was no pizza scene in Rome until the 80's when the tourist industry needed to create linkage to where pizza would eventually become a universal food in America.  Additionally, today's "Neapolitan" style pizza is actually a wholly new creation of it's own having been born out of the tourist renaissance of Italy post 1980's.  This coincided with the rustic food trends, and when Italian breads such as Ciabatta was invented to compete with the famed history of the French baguette within tourism.  Prior to that, pizzas in Naples bore no resemblance to what you see today and were very  similar to today's thin crispy "tomato pies" in CT and NJ or tavern style pies in SI.   There are alot of historical inaccuracies which play into the food scene.  One of the biggest farces is what they serve at places like Lombardi's as representative of the first true Neapolitan-American pizza in NY.  I would bet that the original Lombardi's were similar to the Staten Island style and Jersey tomato pies..  The relaunch of Lombardi's was a hybrid concoction made for tourists during the Giuiliani era. 
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on November 27, 2016, 09:41:18 AM
There were several waves of Italian immigrants to the states from the early 20th century to after WW2.  It should be known however that Italy was and still is a multicultural nation made up of very distinct regions.  I would also note that tavern style pizzerias such as Joe and Pats, Lee's, and Denino's along with those in central Jersey like DeLorenzo's and up north in New Haven, CT at Pepe's were started by immigrants from Naples and differs from the lineage of the NY deck oven style pizzas post WW2 which were primarily Sicilian immigrants.  Gary Bimonte's grandfather of Pepe's was from Naples, as is Rick DeLorenzo's family and so are Joe and Gennaro Pappalardo of Joe and Pat's. 

Having visited both Rome and Naples many times since the 80's, the thin round Roman pie of today is actually a derivative of the original Neapolitan style pizza that was served over a hundred years ago.  There was no pizza scene in Rome until the 80's when the tourist industry needed to create linkage to where pizza would eventually become a universal food in America.  Additionally, today's "Neapolitan" style pizza is actually a wholly new creation on it's own having been born out of the tourist renaissance of Italy post 1980's.  This coincided with the rustic food trends, and when Italian breads such as Ciabatta was invented to compete with the famed history of the French baguette within tourism.  Prior to that, pizzas in Naples bore no resemblance to what you see today and were very  similar to today's thin crispy "tomato pies" or tavern style pies in SI.   There are alot of historical inaccuracies which play into the food scene.  One of the biggest farces is what they serve at places like Lombardi's as representative of the first true Neapolitan-American pizza in NY.  I would bet that the original Lombardi's were similar to the Staten Island style and Jersey tomato pies.  The relaunch of Lombardi's was a hybrid concoction.

Thanks for all of your thoughts HarryHaller73,

I find them all interesting.  8)

Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: jkb on November 27, 2016, 10:39:33 AM
I'd love to see photos of pizza from 100 years ago but I can't find any.  It's almost like they didn't have food bloggers back then.
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: HarryHaller73 on November 27, 2016, 11:09:49 AM
I'd love to see photos of pizza from 100 years ago but I can't find any.  It's almost like they didn't have food bloggers back then.

The longest continuously running family owned pizzeria is Papa's Tomato pies in Trenton, NJ.  According to long time customers and owner, the recipe has been the same since opening in 1912.  They share similar aesthetic to pizza in Staten Island, same lineage and vein, characterized by very thin almost cracker crust but not, a foldable inner crumb, crispy, and somewhat charred rim.  This pizza tradition has persisted over the decades hidden in enclaves eaten by locals only until the past decade when they were discovered by everyone else.  Staten Island is inaccessible from the city besides the ferry, and tourists didn't care about Jersey, esp Trenton of all places.   Denino's and Joe and Pat's (aka Rubirosa) have recently opened their 2nd shops downtown Manhattan so their popularity is now trending as wood fire pizza drops off. 

I found some pics online in order of Papa's Tomato pie, Denino's and Lee Tavern in Staten Island, DeLorenzo's in Robbinsville, NJ and Frank Pepe's in New Haven, CT.  They all share similar aesthetic, I would imagine this was what pizza looked like 80-100 years ago in NYC/NJ and representative of true Neapolitan style pizza and that this style evolved into the deck oven era NY pizza style after the 1950's. 
   
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: invertedisdead on November 27, 2016, 02:20:41 PM
Ryan,

I had thought about rolling out the dough half way and then trying to hand stretch.  How evenly their dough is stretched to the edges would be tough for me.  Did your 52% hydration dough did it contain a fair amout of oil?  I saw somehwere that they use a lower protein flour.  To be able to toss the dough like that man did yesterday there would need to be some strength in that dough, or it might have been he was so skilled in tossing and twirling that made that skin so evenly thin.

Norma

3% oil - I used a tip from John Fazzari using warmer water to help influence hydration.
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: Pete-zza on November 27, 2016, 03:07:04 PM
Norma and Ryan,

Tom Lehmann recommends that one roll out the dough to about 2/3-3/4 of the full diameter of the intended size pizza. That might make it easier to finish than going half way if you decide to use that approach.

Peter
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on November 27, 2016, 07:38:23 PM
The longest continuously running family owned pizzeria is Papa's Tomato pies in Trenton, NJ.  According to long time customers and owner, the recipe has been the same since opening in 1912.  They share similar aesthetic to pizza in Staten Island, same lineage and vein, characterized by very thin almost cracker crust but not, a foldable inner crumb, crispy, and somewhat charred rim.  This pizza tradition has persisted over the decades hidden in enclaves eaten by locals only until the past decade when they were discovered by everyone else.  Staten Island is inaccessible from the city besides the ferry, and tourists didn't care about Jersey, esp Trenton of all places.   Denino's and Joe and Pat's (aka Rubirosa) have recently opened their 2nd shops downtown Manhattan so their popularity is now trending as wood fire pizza drops off. 

I found some pics online in order of Papa's Tomato pie, Denino's and Lee Tavern in Staten Island, DeLorenzo's in Robbinsville, NJ and Frank Pepe's in New Haven, CT.  They all share similar aesthetic, I would imagine this was what pizza looked like 80-100 years ago in NYC/NJ and representative of true Neapolitan style pizza and that this style evolved into the deck oven era NY pizza style after the 1950's. 
   

HarryHaller73,

I agree that Papa's, De Lorenzo's, Denino's, Lee Tavern, and Joe & Pat's all have something in common with their pizzas.  I did pizza reviews with photos of all of them. 

I wonder why the trend is starting to go up some in NYC for pizzas like those that have been mostly hidden before.
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on November 27, 2016, 07:40:03 PM
3% oil - I used a tip from John Fazzari using warmer water to help influence hydration.

Ryan,

Thanks for sharing the tip you got from John Fazzari. 

Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on November 27, 2016, 07:41:48 PM
Norma and Ryan,

Tom Lehmann recommends that one roll out the dough to about 2/3-3/4 of the full diameter of the intended size pizza. That might make it easier to finish than going half way if you decide to use that approach.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for telling us what Tom Lehmann recommends.  What hydration would you guess Joe & Pat's dough is?

Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: Pete-zza on November 27, 2016, 09:24:35 PM
Peter,

What hydration would you guess Joe & Pat's dough is?

Norma
Norma,

Based on what I have seen and read from what you posted and looking at Yelp photos taken at Joe & Pat's, I would guess that the hydration is in the mid-50s or maybe a bit higher. And I tend to agree with Ryan that there may be some oil in the dough. I don't think you want too high a hydration or too much oil since that would produce more volume in the dough and more oven spring than you might want in a thin, almost cracker-like crust. For thickness factor, I am guessing around 0.060-0.065. From the videos, it looks like it takes quite a while to open up the doughs and form into skins so that might also suggest a hydration on the low side. Also, if I heard the comments correctly in one of the videos, one of the employees said that it takes about six months to become proficient in opening up dough balls. So, opening up a dough ball somewhat on the small side to get the skin uniformly thin across the entire size of the pizza takes some practice.

I would also imagine that the Fish reel oven plays a special role in the final results and has to marry well with the dough formulation used. The last time I saw a revolving oven was at Papa Gino's in the northeast. The pizzas at the PG store I visited were baked in a Baxter “ferris wheel” oven. I believe that Baxter refers to such ovens as a “revolving tray ovens”. The ferris wheel ovens have traditionally been popular choices for baking Chicago-style pizzas. The one used at the PG store I visited used a metal baking surface. But one of the workers I spoke with said that he thought that a deck oven with a stone surface was a better choice based on his personal experience (my recollection is that he had worked with deck ovens before). Do you know what kind of baking surface Joe's & Pat's uses? And did you get any sense of the volume of pizzas baked at one time in the oven? And also how long it takes to bake a given pizza?

Also, can you tell us what size the pizzas are at Joe & Pat's, and what a pie typically costs?

Peter
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on November 27, 2016, 10:25:32 PM
Norma,

Based on what I have seen and read from what you posted and looking at Yelp photos taken at Joe & Pat's, I would guess that the hydration is in the mid-50s or maybe a bit higher. And I tend to agree with Ryan that there may be some oil in the dough. I don't think you want too high a hydration or too much oil since that would produce more volume in the dough and more oven spring than you might want in a thin, almost cracker-like crust. For thickness factor, I am guessing around 0.060-0.065. From the videos, it looks like it takes quite a while to open up the doughs and form into skins so that might also suggest a hydration on the low side. Also, if I heard the comments correctly in one of the videos, one of the employees said that it takes about six months to become proficient in opening up dough balls. So, opening up a dough ball somewhat on the small side to get the skin uniformly thin across the entire size of the pizza takes some practice.

I would also imagine that the Fish reel oven plays a special role in the final results and has to marry well with the dough formulation used. The last time I saw a revolving oven was at Papa Gino's in the northeast. The pizzas at the PG store I visited were baked in a Baxter “ferris wheel” oven. I believe that Baxter refers to such ovens as a “revolving tray ovens”. The ferris wheel ovens have traditionally been popular choices for baking Chicago-style pizzas. The one used at the PG store I visited used a metal baking surface. But one of the workers I spoke with said that he thought that a deck oven with a stone surface was a better choice based on his personal experience (my recollection is that he had worked with deck ovens before). Do you know what kind of baking surface Joe's & Pat's uses? And did you get any sense of the volume of pizzas baked at one time in the oven? And also how long it takes to bake a given pizza?

Also, can you tell us what size the pizzas are at Joe & Pat's, and what a pie typically costs?

Peter

Peter,

The pizza sizes at Joe and Pats are 14” and 16”, and the costs are at the link below.  The cheese slice I had was $2.50.  I also posted a photo of the menu board where the pie men were pounding on the dough.  http://whereyoueat.com/Joe-and-Pats--35.html 

Thanks for your guess on what hydration to try and about tending to agree with Ryan that there may be some oil in the dough.  You guess at the TF is probably good. 

In this Eater article it says that the pizza oven is enormous, but I only saw the front of the Fish oven.  As far as I could tell when the man opened the oven door for me to see, the decks looked like they were steel.  It can be seen in the one photo how the cubed cheese is applied and how thin their sauce looks.  I guess they all marry together to make a great pizza.

http://ny.eater.com/2012/1/6/6624965/fierce-loyalty-fantastic-pies-at-joe-and-pats-pizzeria 


To get another idea of what that Fish oven looked like in the slideshow.

http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2010/03/staten-island-pier-76-pizza-like-joe-and-pats-st-george-siny-nyc-review-slideshow.html   

Jerry said the Fish oven at Pier 76 was almost identical to the one at Joe and Pat's in Staten Island.  In this article it says that Grande cheese is used, but it sure didn't taste like Grande cheese to me.

http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2010/03/staten-island-pier-76-pizza-like-joe-and-pats-st-george-siny-nyc-review.html   

More info on the sauce in this article.

http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2004/11/joe_pats.html

These are the pizzerias where Giuseppe Papparlardo mastered his craft.

http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2007/11/joe-and-pats-pizza-staten-island-new-york-castleton-corners-four-corners.html 

Any other thoughts or suggestions let me know.

Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: HarryHaller73 on November 27, 2016, 10:29:21 PM
HarryHaller73,

I agree that Papa's, De Lorenzo's, Denino's, Lee Tavern, and Joe & Pat's all have something in common with their pizzas.  I did pizza reviews with photos of all of them. 

I wonder why the trend is starting to go up some in NYC for pizzas like those that have been mostly hidden before.

Because people are fickle and want new experiences.  I like that Staten Island pies are in cos they're classic NY unlike other fads that have come about.  It's time for New York to re-establish what's theirs not pretending to be a cupcake, curd or  detroit pie seller.
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on November 27, 2016, 10:39:52 PM
Because people are fickle and want new experiences.  I like that Staten Island pies are in cos they're classic NY unlike other fads that have come about.  It's time for New York to re-establish what's theirs not pretending to be a cupcake, curd or  detroit pie seller.

Harry,

I agree with you on all counts.  :) I really believe that they're classic NY unlike other fads. 

Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on November 27, 2016, 11:31:16 PM
Another photo of the Fish oven at Joe and Pat's.  Also some more comments on how their pizza tasted and the texture.

http://iwantmorefood.com/2009/08/29/staten-island-pizza-tour-wrap-up/

Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: Pete-zza on November 28, 2016, 11:42:22 AM
Peter,

Any other thoughts or suggestions let me know.

Norma
Norma,

The reason I asked you about Joe & Pat's pizza sizes and pricing is because I saw a Yelp photo (below) where a large pizza (half-and-half) cost $28. And with a few other items, the total check plus tax was $52.30. Not exactly cheap.

With respect to the Fish oven, I recalled reading some time ago that Di Fara's was opening a place in Vegas and would be using a Fish oven. I did a forum search and found this item:

Reply 4 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=12535.msg162646#msg162646.

I also saw mention in one of the articles that you cited that the tomatoes used by Joe & Pat's were California grown San Marzanos. I wonder if they are the ones shown in the photo below.

Peter
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: invertedisdead on November 28, 2016, 12:10:27 PM
I think a dough in the 52-55% range would be a good starting point depending on the flour used. I found some pics of my 52% water + 3% oil KABF dough ball and open skin. I used the Lehmann rolling method to open most of the way and finished with a knuckle stretch.
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: Pete-zza on November 28, 2016, 12:20:33 PM
Ryan,

What dough ball weight was that?

Peter
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on November 28, 2016, 12:33:28 PM
Norma,

The reason I asked you about Joe & Pat's pizza sizes and pricing is because I saw a Yelp photo (below) where a large pizza (half-and-half) cost $28. And with a few other items, the total check plus tax was $52.30. Not exactly cheap.

With respect to the Fish oven, I recalled reading some time ago that Di Fara's was opening a place in Vegas and would be using a Fish oven. I did a forum search and found this item:

Reply 4 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=12535.msg162646#msg162646.

I also saw mention in one of the articles that you cited that the tomatoes used by Joe & Pat's were California grown San Marzanos. I wonder if they are the ones shown in the photo below.

Peter

Peter,

That isn't cheap, but my two slices and a drink were about $7.28.  I don't know where I put the tab right now.  If I find it I will post it.  I didn't think that was bad at all.

Thanks for the link about the Fish oven at Di Fara's in Vegas.  For some reason they really fascinate me.  :-D I talked to Walter last night and he told me he had used a Fish oven and saw different ones in operation years ago.  I told Walter to look at the Fish oven at Joe and Pat's and he thinks that there is a regular deck, on the metal in that Fish oven but couldn't be sure. 

I don't think the tomatoes used by Joe and Pat's were the ones you posted a photo of.  I was kinda leaning to an article that said they use a San Marzano strain grown in California.  That sound like it could be the Alta Cucina.  What do you think?

As for the cubed cheese I think they might use Grande because of what is on the lower right corner of the menu.

http://www.pier76si.com/file/Pier76MN.pdf 

And maybe why I didn't think it was just Grande in this article.

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/11/06/dining/pizza-2002-the-state-of-the-slice.html 

Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on November 28, 2016, 12:36:31 PM
I think a dough in the 52-55% range would be a good starting point depending on the flour used. I found some pics of my 52% water + 3% oil KABF dough ball and open skin. I used the Lehmann rolling method to open most of the way and finished with a knuckle stretch.

Ryan,

I also would like to know you whole formula if you don't mind.  That looks great!  ;D

Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: Pete-zza on November 28, 2016, 01:28:49 PM
Peter,

I don't think the tomatoes used by Joe and Pat's were the ones you posted a photo of.  I was kinda leaning to an article that said they use a San Marzano strain grown in California.  That sound like it could be the Alta Cucina.  What do you think?

As for the cubed cheese I think they might use Grande because of what is on the lower right corner of the menu.

http://www.pier76si.com/file/Pier76MN.pdf 

And maybe why I didn't think it was just Grande in this article.

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/11/06/dining/pizza-2002-the-state-of-the-slice.html 

Norma
Norma,

When I looked at the menu you referenced, I noticed that it was for the Pier 76 Restaurant, and the only place I saw the Grande name was at the bottom of the top half of the menu. I did see, however, a statement at the top right of the menu that said Pier 76 offers the same pies as the legendary Joe & Pat's. I'm not quite sure what that means.

As for the Stanislaus Alta Cucina tomatoes, they are not San Marzanos. The Alta Cucinas are Stanislaus' answer to the San Marzanos, as discussed at:

http://www.stanislausfoodproducts.com/products/real-italian-products/from-scratch-products#Alta.

The photo I showed in my last post is the canned tomatoes sold by Simpson Imports. The San Marzano name is all over the label, along with "POMIDORI PELATI" to give the product an Italian sounding name, but there is small print on the label that reads GROWN DOMESTICALLY IN THE U.S.A (in very small caps). The new photo below better shows that wording. My recollection is that the tomatoes are grown in California. I believe that there are some people who question whether the Simpson tomatoes are even San Marzano tomatoes.

Peter
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: invertedisdead on November 28, 2016, 01:56:41 PM
Ryan,

What dough ball weight was that?

Peter

485g @ 17"
I've been experimenting mostly between 16 and 18 oz for a 17" pie.

Ryan

Ryan,

I also would like to know you whole formula if you don't mind.  That looks great!  ;D

Norma

For sure Norma, here it is

Flour (100%) 
Water (52%)
IDY (.5%) 
Salt (2%)
Oil (3%)
LDMP (.5%)

You can see the crispy crackly "rim" that is kind of similar to their pie, of course I did a party cut. Would be interesting to see what it looked like in slices. With Peter's TF recommendation it might get you there.
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: waltertore on November 28, 2016, 04:11:58 PM
Peter,

That isn't cheap, but my two slices and a drink were about $7.28.  I don't know where I put the tab right now.  If I find it I will post it.  I didn't think that was bad at all.

Thanks for the link about the Fish oven at Di Fara's in Vegas.  For some reason they really fascinate me.  :-D I talked to Walter last night and he told me he had used a Fish oven and saw different ones in operation years ago.  I told Walter to look at the Fish oven at Joe and Pat's and he thinks that there is a regular deck, on the metal in that Fish oven but couldn't be sure. 

I don't think the tomatoes used by Joe and Pat's were the ones you posted a photo of.  I was kinda leaning to an article that said they use a San Marzano strain grown in California.  That sound like it could be the Alta Cucina.  What do you think?

As for the cubed cheese I think they might use Grande because of what is on the lower right corner of the menu.

http://www.pier76si.com/file/Pier76MN.pdf 

And maybe why I didn't think it was just Grande in this article.

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/11/06/dining/pizza-2002-the-state-of-the-slice.html 

Norma

Norma:  I am sure you have some old bakeries in your neck of the woods.  Most bakeries ovens are hidden by a wall from the customer unlike pizzerias and I bet there are some old ovens in those places.  Bakeries are less secretive than pizzerias and probably one will show you an old Fish or Marshall revolving oven.  Larry  (thezaman) uses one in his shop in OH if I remember correct.  These are the type ovens I saw in many bakeries.  A bakery in Newark OH that was run by the same family for near 100 years had 2 of these ovens.  They were selling everything and I dreamed of getting one but they are a massive undertaking to remove and make sure they work right.  Most places today use the ones you saw in SI.  Walter
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: waltertore on November 28, 2016, 05:58:26 PM
The bagel shop in our town used a revolving oven set up like this and I use to watch them make the bagels often.  I too am fascinated with the old revolving ovens.  Walter

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPCOJAm5L2U
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on November 28, 2016, 07:20:00 PM
Norma,

When I looked at the menu you referenced, I noticed that it was for the Pier 76 Restaurant, and the only place I saw the Grande name was at the bottom of the top half of the menu. I did see, however, a statement at the top right of the menu that said Pier 76 offers the same pies as the legendary Joe & Pat's. I'm not quite sure what that means.

As for the Stanislaus Alta Cucina tomatoes, they are not San Marzanos. The Alta Cucinas are Stanislaus' answer to the San Marzanos, as discussed at:

http://www.stanislausfoodproducts.com/products/real-italian-products/from-scratch-products#Alta.

The photo I showed in my last post is the canned tomatoes sold by Simpson Imports. The San Marzano name is all over the label, along with "POMIDORI PELATI" to give the product an Italian sounding name, but there is small print on the label that reads GROWN DOMESTICALLY IN THE U.S.A (in very small caps). The new photo below better shows that wording. My recollection is that the tomatoes are grown in California. I believe that there are some people who question whether the Simpson tomatoes are even San Marzano tomatoes.

Peter

Peter,

I am not sure if Grande cheese is used at Joe and Pat's either, but did see another article that said they use Grande cheese, with another hard cheese.  I can't find that article now. 

I know Stanislaus Alta Cuncina tomatoes are not really San Marzanos. 

I see those San Marzanos tomatoes in local supermarkets sometimes.  If I recall right I didn't really like them.

Norma

Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on November 28, 2016, 07:22:53 PM
Norma:  I am sure you have some old bakeries in your neck of the woods.  Most bakeries ovens are hidden by a wall from the customer unlike pizzerias and I bet there are some old ovens in those places.  Bakeries are less secretive than pizzerias and probably one will show you an old Fish or Marshall revolving oven.  Larry  (thezaman) uses one in his shop in OH if I remember correct.  These are the type ovens I saw in many bakeries.  A bakery in Newark OH that was run by the same family for near 100 years had 2 of these ovens.  They were selling everything and I dreamed of getting one but they are a massive undertaking to remove and make sure they work right.  Most places today use the ones you saw in SI.  Walter

Walter,

There is probably old bakeries in our area but I sure don't know where they are.  Interesting that Larry uses one of those revolving ovens.

Wish you could have gotten one of those ovens.

The bagel shop in our town used a revolving oven set up like this and I use to watch them make the bagels often.  I too am fascinated with the old revolving ovens.  Walter


That is a great video!  I love to watch how they make the bagels and the revolving oven.  Thanks for posting!

Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on November 28, 2016, 07:25:59 PM

For sure Norma, here it is

Flour (100%) 
Water (52%)
IDY (.5%) 
Salt (2%)
Oil (3%)
LDMP (.5%)

You can see the crispy crackly "rim" that is kind of similar to their pie, of course I did a party cut. Would be interesting to see what it looked like in slices. With Peter's TF recommendation it might get you there.

Thank so much for your formulation.  I see how crispy the rim is.  I might try your formulation.  I tried one today because I hadn't seen this post before I went to market.  I used a little higher hydration, but the same amount of oil.

Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on November 28, 2016, 07:28:45 PM
I had wondered if the Hobart would mix a smaller batch of dough with a lower hydration.  At least the Hobart mixed the dough well.  I think this was the smallest batch of dough that was mixed in the Hobart.

Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: HarryHaller73 on November 28, 2016, 11:12:06 PM
Norma,

So excited you finally had the chance to try Joe & Pats. It is one of my favorites (along with Rubirosa) and I have a thread dedicated to their pies in NY style. Many people say NY style is the evolution of Neapolitan; the moment I tried these pies I thought they were the evolution of Roman style brought to the states. Thin, crispy, tender, sauced to the edge...one of my all time favorites. I have a lot of details and research from my visits at Rubirosa and how long they bake for in the Fish ovens. I'm trying to modify these pies for wood fired as I think the fish bakes them evenly but dries them out a bit, but boy are these amazing pizzas. The mozzarella (low moisture on the classic pies) are cubed rather than diced. Sauce in unadulterated and it's just so good for how simple the pies are. The vodka pie at Rubi is just as good but uses fresh mozzarella.

I have my own recipe for this style of pizza that's come pretty close but it's really the unsung hero of NY style. It's so different from anything else out there and I think it's a crowd pleaser. It's somewhere between NY style and coal oven and truly a unique style of pizza that deserves more attention!

Was wondering if you could share your Emmy Squared recipe here on the forum. 
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: hotsawce on November 28, 2016, 11:16:52 PM
Harry,

I can't share the exact recipe but I can tell you how to get close, and what my biggest "secret" is. High hydration, very well proofed dough (it should feel and look like it's full of air,) and toppings in balance.

Anyway, the other dough balls look pretty close to the Rubirosa dough ball I got my hands on. The one I tried was very proofed.

Was wondering if you could share your Emmy Squared recipe here on the forum.
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: HarryHaller73 on November 28, 2016, 11:21:53 PM
Harry,

I can't share the exact recipe but I can tell you how to get close, and what my biggest "secret" is. High hydration, very well proofed dough (it should feel and look like it's full of air,) and toppings in balance.

Anyway, the other dough balls look pretty close to the Rubirosa dough ball I got my hands on. The one I tried was very proofed.

Well, the biggest "secret" to Joe and Pats is getting angry and hitting the dough like you mean it.

Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: HarryHaller73 on November 29, 2016, 07:36:54 PM
Joe & Pat's homage.

Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: invertedisdead on November 29, 2016, 07:46:18 PM
Did you hand stretch or roll Harry? Nice thin pie! What TF did you calculate?
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: HarryHaller73 on November 29, 2016, 07:53:32 PM
Did you hand stretch or roll Harry? Nice thin pie! What TF did you calculate?

I pounded it down, no rolling, no stretching.  Tried to keep it true to their workflow.  Did slap it around a few times.  TF 0.065.



Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on November 29, 2016, 09:12:00 PM
Joe & Pat's homage.

Looks great HarryHaller73!

Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on November 29, 2016, 09:15:13 PM
My homage to Joe and Pats pizza today..lol  Pizza, Pizza

https://youtu.be/Dq73jOl9Z9s

Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on November 29, 2016, 09:44:20 PM
These were my two attempts today.  Used 0.065 TF.  First attempt was 16" and was too crackery.  The second was a 14" and wasn't right.

First attempt used Grande cheese and second attempt with pepperoni used the regular cheddar.

Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on November 29, 2016, 09:46:26 PM
Second attempt.

Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: waltertore on November 29, 2016, 10:31:08 PM
Norma and crew:  You guys inspired me to give it a try.  The crust came out crunchy on the extreme edge but still chewy throughout.  Walter
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: waltertore on November 29, 2016, 10:34:34 PM
couple more
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: waltertore on November 29, 2016, 10:36:06 PM
One more.   I used a small dough ball (8sed for 12" but stretched this one to about 14")  and really flattened it out then made little balls squished together from our shredded cheese.
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: HarryHaller73 on November 29, 2016, 10:39:17 PM
Looks great HarryHaller73!

Norma

Thx, yours looks great too.

Next time I am going to make it a bit thicker and add more "cheese moons".  These pizzas are so crispy and addictive.
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: HarryHaller73 on November 29, 2016, 10:40:23 PM
couple more

WOw, that pie looks NICE.  Lovely pepperoni too.
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: waltertore on November 29, 2016, 10:52:35 PM
WOw, that pie looks NICE.  Lovely pepperoni too.

Thanks Harry and the same to your take :)  The pepperoni is a small meat company creation.  They don't advertise it and very few pizzerias use it - don't ship or sell retail.  I sent Norma some for her Caputo Cup pie and also brought some for her in Vegas for the Pizza Expo competition.  It has a great flavor.  I needed to spend more time flattening the edges.  I grew up with Star Tavern in NJ and they use rolling pins to get the edges flat.  The pizza tasted good and all of us working here liked it.  Walter
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on November 29, 2016, 11:28:13 PM
Wow Walter, 

Your sure did great on your pies.  I would love to try one of those.   :drool:

Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: invertedisdead on November 30, 2016, 12:56:07 AM
Nice pies everyone  :chef:

I'll try and fly one tomorrow.

Anybody know what flour they are using? Is the sauce straight tomato as Scott Weiner says in his Rubirosa video?
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on November 30, 2016, 08:51:26 AM
Nice pies everyone  :chef:

I'll try and fly one tomorrow.

Anybody know what flour they are using? Is the sauce straight tomato as Scott Weiner says in his Rubirosa video?

Ryan,

I have no idea what flour they are using at Joe and Pat's.

This is Scott Wiener's video of the dough at Rubirosa.  That dough looks like a higher in hydration then what I tried.

https://vine.co/v/M0YPPQjUhqF

Which video did you watch?  Was it the one with Sean Taylor?  I forget where the article is about Joe and Pat's, but think it said that there is a hard cheese added with the mozzarella, but don't know how it is added, whether it is in the sauce, or sprinkled  some where among the toppings.  I think that article is in the New York Times.

I was going to try a smaller dough ball that was from Craig's formulation, which was 65% hydration with 3% oil, but time ran out of time to be able to try that.

There is a fine line when trying a lower hydration dough of making a cracker and a foldable crust in bake times.

Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: HarryHaller73 on November 30, 2016, 09:25:25 AM
Nice pies everyone  :chef:

I'll try and fly one tomorrow.

Anybody know what flour they are using? Is the sauce straight tomato as Scott Weiner says in his Rubirosa video?

I tried All Trumps in my first attempt, it was a bit chewy for the style.  IMO, it tasted better with KABF in my second attempt.  I would guess it's a lower protein flour.

Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on November 30, 2016, 09:46:39 AM
Scott Wiener posted this on the link on Reddit.

Quote
scottwiener 16 points 3 years ago
Tough to answer. In New York we have a crust most people would call "thin crust" but it's more of a standard crust around here. True thin crust is almost cracker-thin. I love the pizza at Rubirosa in Manhattan and Star Tavern in West Orange, NJ but there are tons more I like variation more than repetition in mu pizza diet.

https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1r85hg/iama_professional_pizza_enthusiasthistorian_nyc/

If anyone finds anymore links that can help please do so.


Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: invertedisdead on November 30, 2016, 09:52:49 AM
I tried All Trumps in my first attempt, it was a bit chewy for the style.  IMO, it tasted better with KABF in my second attempt.  I would guess it's a lower protein flour.



Thanks Harry, KABF is also what I'm trying.

Ryan,

I have no idea what flour they are using at Joe and Pat's.

This is Scott Wiener's video of the dough at Rubirosa.  That dough looks like a higher in hydration then what I tried.

https://vine.co/v/M0YPPQjUhqF/embed

Which video did you watch?  Was it the one with Sean Taylor?  I forget where the article is about Joe and Pat's, but think it said that there is a hard cheese added with the mozzarella, but don't know how it is added, whether it is in the sauce, or sprinkled  some where among the toppings.  I think that article is in the New York Times.

I was going to try a smaller dough ball that was from Craig's formulation, which was 65% hydration with 3% oil, but time ran out of time to be able to try that.

There is a fine line when trying a lower hydration dough of making a cracker and a foldable crust in bake times.

Norma

I can't find it for some reason but I saw it last night, it was from some NY news channel giving the anchorman a pizza tour to Prince St, Lombardi's, and Rubirosa. Scott said the sauce was straight tomato and the guest kept commenting on how much he liked the sauce. I saw another Rubirosa video where they show a small grate of hard cheese as the last step before baking. I know what you mean about the fine line, this is one I did a few months ago, probably the thinnest pie I've done, foldable. I'll post my results when I bake later on today. I think at 65% it would open up very easily with lots of extensibility.
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: HarryHaller73 on November 30, 2016, 10:47:16 AM
Tried All Trumps again, this third one was higher at TF 0.075 15oz doughball for a little over 16" pie.  This is the sweet spot for me.  Super crispy and very thin yet foldable.

Mind you, pounding and slapping a doughball to compress crumb will produce a thinner pie than using another method like hand stretching at same TF.  Also, the way it was fermented.  I think how Joe & Pat's opens their doughs is very important variable to their finished product.



Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on November 30, 2016, 10:56:16 AM
Great job Harry!   :drool:  Thanks for the details and your workflow.

Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: invertedisdead on November 30, 2016, 02:39:57 PM
That looks nice Harry, my TF was at .075 but after seeing your post last night I cut it down to .065 TF 17" = 418g.
What is your temp and bake time? I noticed you guys aren't getting the "burnt ends" - from searching a bit their pies seem somewhat inconsistent regarding rim size, burnt ends, and how far to the edge they sauce. I thought this slice I found online looked really good.

Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: HarryHaller73 on November 30, 2016, 03:24:54 PM
That looks nice Harry, my TF was at .075 but after seeing your post last night I cut it down to .065 TF 17" = 418g.
What is your temp and bake time? I noticed you guys aren't getting the "burnt ends" - from searching a bit their pies seem somewhat inconsistent regarding rim size, burnt ends, and how far to the edge they sauce. I thought this slice I found online looked really good.

Norma mentioned Joe and Pat's/Rubirosa bakes in large revolving Fish brand oven which gets you certain baking characteristics in the rim out of the almost convective air flow from the spinning.  Not sure, but the oven platforms may also be steel.   I baked 6 minutes at 525. Maybe try one at 575 for less time  but be careful not to let it get too crackery.  Since they are so thin, there is a narrow window where they need to be pulled so that they are crispy yet still somewhat foldable.  They will bend some.  One could also experiment with higher hydration.

These are two pics online of Joe and Pat's/Rubirosa pizzas that pretty much sums up what they are.  Bottom one is the vodka pie.
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: waltertore on November 30, 2016, 04:00:33 PM
nice pies everyone!  I am sure the oven plays a role in the bake.  I have seen them with steel, the norm as they are mainly a bakery oven, and stone that were used in bagel shops.  Star Tavern in Orange NJ (my homebase) uses rolling pins to get the rims flat.  Walter
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: invertedisdead on November 30, 2016, 05:31:08 PM
It looks like they are using a solid amount of sauce as it definitely has full coverage and isn't all dried out by the end of the bake despite minimal cheese. I'm gonna try 5 or 6 oz cubed low moisture mozzarella.
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on November 30, 2016, 08:03:10 PM
It looks like they are using a solid amount of sauce as it definitely has full coverage and isn't all dried out by the end of the bake despite minimal cheese. I'm gonna try 5 or 6 oz cubed low moisture mozzarella.

Ryan,

From the article at EATER, I copied one of their photos of the sauce and cubed cheese on an unbaked pizza.

http://ny.eater.com/2012/1/6/6624965/fierce-loyalty-fantastic-pies-at-joe-and-pats-pizzeria

The sauce looks thin to my eyes and the cheese cubes look little and plentiful. 

I forgot to say in my opening post that the man, beside the man that was tossing and twirling the dough, said the bake time was 5 minutes and the man tossing the dough said the bake time was 8 minutes.

Norma

Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: jvp123 on November 30, 2016, 08:04:55 PM
Nice pies everyone ... I will gladly follow along as I loved Rubirosa and Joe & Pat's looks amazing too.  I do like the charred edge on many of the photos ... If I try this, I'd like to make sure I get some of that.

I might have missed it, but does anyone know the temp of their steel decked oven and the duration of their bake?

edit: Oh 5 to 8 minutes ...  :-D  (thanks Norma - you posted while I was writing).
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on November 30, 2016, 08:24:41 PM
This link does not take you anywhere, but in the advance file photo this is what Joe Pappalardo, owner of Joe and Pat's in Castleton Corners, says that a 550 degree oven and a pizza stone yields a crisp crust.

http://www.silive.com/entertainment/dining/index.ssf/2009/06/post_41.html 

http://www.silive.com/entertainment/dining/index.ssf/2012/09/staten_islands_joe_and_pats_pi.html

This link says the recipe arose out of necessity during the second World war, when the Pappalardo family started making pies out of leftover bread dough.

http://www.silive.com/news/index.ssf/2007/10/food_network_cameras_take_slic.html

http://www.silive.com/readerschoice/2014/11/staten_islands_best_take-out_j.html

Article about New Pier 76.

http://www.silive.com/northshore/index.ssf/2009/11/st_george_gets_thin-crust_pizz.html

Does anyone have a link to that Food Network show?

A video from Rubirosa's.  There you see what the volka sauce? pizza baking and also the hard cheese added to the sauce and cubed cheese. The dough in the video doesn't look that hard to open. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdwzy83EQOM

Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: HarryHaller73 on November 30, 2016, 08:35:12 PM


A video from Rubirosa's.  There you see what the volka sauce? pizza baking and also the hard cheese added to the sauce and cubed cheese. The dough in the video doesn't look that hard to open. 


Norma

Norma, thanks for all the links.

Looks like the Fish oven bakes pies on steel platforms at 0:36 in the video.

Seems they use a different mozzarella on the vodka pie, they look like halved Ciliegine "small cherry" fresh mozzarella.

Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on November 30, 2016, 08:40:59 PM
Norma, thanks for all the links.

Looks like the Fish oven bakes pies on steel platforms at 0:36 in the video.


HarryHaller73,

It also looks like to my eyes that the pies are bake on a steel platform, but I am not sure.

Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on November 30, 2016, 08:42:50 PM

Seems they use a different mozzarella on the vodka pie, they look like halved Ciliegine "small cherry" fresh mozzarella.


Think you are right.

Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: invertedisdead on November 30, 2016, 08:47:43 PM
My test... same formula I posted a page ago. This was one of the tastiest pies I've made in a while. I'm pretty sure I used quite a bit more hard cheese, just couldn't help myself. Whole peeled tomatoes with salt and sugar, Saputo mozzarella, Dietz & Watson stick pepperoni. The crust was very flavorful for a 24 hour dough. Crackery at the end but the slice still had droop, not a straight pointing arrow. Didn't get the kind of charring they do though and my bake time was closer to 9 minutes.
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on November 30, 2016, 08:50:27 PM
My test... same formula I posted a page ago. This was one of the tastiest pies I've made in a while. I'm pretty sure I used quite a bit more hard cheese, just couldn't help myself. Whole peeled tomatoes with salt and sugar, Saputo mozzarella, Dietz & Watson stick pepperoni. The crust was very flavorful for a 24 hour dough. Crackery at the end but the slice still had droop, not a straight pointing arrow. Didn't get the kind of charring they do though and my bake time was closer to 9 minutes.

Ryan,

Very good job.  Looks delicious! 

Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on November 30, 2016, 08:51:39 PM
In this article it says this.

Thin as it is, the crust at Denino’s seems thick compared with that of Joe & Pat’s Pizzeria and Restaurant, on a working-class commercial stretch of Victory Boulevard in the middle of the island. It was founded in 1960 by Joe and Pat Pappalardo, and the most popular pizza has an imperially thin crust, crisper than regular Neapolitan, with a sprightly tomato sauce and memorably good mozzarella.
The best seats in the house are along a counter that faces the pizza ovens and prep counter, creating a kind of pizza theater. When I visited, the pizzaiolo nicknamed Big John was forming balls of dough into small flat rounds, leaning them against one another to make a long slouching line of crusts waiting for their final stretch.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/30/dining/staten-island-pizzas-that-stood-the-test-of-time.html

I would think that those long slouching line of crusts waiting for their final stretch would loosen up a lot while waiting for the final stretch.

Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on November 30, 2016, 09:26:36 PM
I can't recall if I linked this article or not.

http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2010/03/staten-island-pier-76-pizza-like-joe-and-pats-st-george-siny-nyc-review.html


It does say that Grande cheese is used.

Pappalardo, for instance, graduated from the Culinary Institute of America, and that training is borne out in the details. Items on the menu such as the specialty arugula pie sport terms like "balsamic reduction," and in talking with Pappalardo, you'll hear about the top-quality Grandé mozzarella he uses or how they slice the pepperoni this thin so it curls and crisps up just right on a pie.

I think the below photo shows better that a steel deck is used in the Fish ovens.

Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: HarryHaller73 on November 30, 2016, 09:38:43 PM
My test... same formula I posted a page ago. This was one of the tastiest pies I've made in a while. I'm pretty sure I used quite a bit more hard cheese, just couldn't help myself. Whole peeled tomatoes with salt and sugar, Saputo mozzarella, Dietz & Watson stick pepperoni. The crust was very flavorful for a 24 hour dough. Crackery at the end but the slice still had droop, not a straight pointing arrow. Didn't get the kind of charring they do though and my bake time was closer to 9 minutes.

Very nice, looks delicious. 
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: invertedisdead on November 30, 2016, 09:44:26 PM
Thanks Norma! I wish I saw your post of the cheese size and sauce consistency first, still, this pie was a keeper a will be making again, maybe might add 1% sugar next time to get color on the crust quicker.

Thanks Harry! Great information from both of you.
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on November 30, 2016, 09:52:09 PM
Some more photos of Joe and Pat's pizzas.

http://eatthisny.com/2013/09/03/pizza/staten-islands-got-some-decent-food-joe-pats/

I wonder if a dough like is at Joe and Pat's would be opened like a De Lorenzo's dough if the same results would be achieved.  Seems like it would, but I sure don't know.

Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: waltertore on November 30, 2016, 10:33:46 PM
This one looks somewhat like the pie I made last night via just using the hands to open on the bench and then some hand stretch to finish it.  The lighting and our camera distort the actual colors to darker that it really looks for some reason. Walter
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: invertedisdead on November 30, 2016, 10:56:48 PM
Looking back at Norma's pics my pie was totally lacking in pepperoni. I think I need a larger diameter to get that look.
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on November 30, 2016, 11:03:57 PM
This one looks somewhat like the pie I made last night via just using the hands to open on the bench and then some hand stretch to finish it.  Walter

Walter,

I think that one was the Sicilian/Grandma?. I haven't seen how Joe and Pat's make theirs. You did a great job last night.  ;D I think one could be made by opening on the bench and the some hand stretching to finish.  It would be the even stretching of such a thin skin that would be hard for me.

Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: waltertore on November 30, 2016, 11:29:14 PM
Walter,

I think that one was the Sicilian/Grandma?. I haven't seen how Joe and Pat's make theirs. You did a great job last night.  ;D I think one could be made by opening on the bench and the some hand stretching to finish.  It would be the even stretching of such a thin skin that would be hard for me.

Norma

guess I made a grandma :)  I wish I could get the colors of our pizzas in pictures to look like they really do.   Hand stretching the thin dough is not hard if the dough is in decent shape.  You could do it easy Norma.  Walter
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on November 30, 2016, 11:43:15 PM
Hand stretching the thin dough is not hard if the dough is in decent shape.  You could do it easy Norma.  Walter

Walter,

I am not still good at stretching dough really thin and keeping the skin even.  Maybe I need to come out and visit and get some lessons.

Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: waltertore on December 01, 2016, 12:39:24 AM
Walter,

I am not still good at stretching dough really thin and keeping the skin even.  Maybe I need to come out and visit and get some lessons.

Norma

Norma:  Come on out. We will advertise you as our guest pizza maker and you can make enough $ to pay your trip.  Judy says come on out too.  Walter
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on December 01, 2016, 05:21:21 AM
Norma:  Come on out. We will advertise you as our guest pizza maker and you can make enough $ to pay your trip.  Judy says come on out too.  Walter

Walter,

Thank you and Judy for the invite.  Maybe next year.  I sure had fun when you both lived in Ohio.

Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on December 01, 2016, 05:41:50 AM
A blogger's opinion of Joe and Pat's pizza.  If the photo of the two slices are blown up it looks like there is a hard cheese added, in addition to the mozzarella.

https://thepizzasnob.net/2012/09/14/thin-crispy-crunchy-staten-islands-joe-pats/

In this article it does say Joe and Pat's uses a touch of percorino romano.

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/11/06/dining/pizza-2002-the-state-of-the-slice.html 

I couldn't see any kind of hard cheese on my slices, but knew there must be some other cheese other than Grande.

Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: invertedisdead on December 01, 2016, 12:18:20 PM
A blogger's opinion of Joe and Pat's pizza.  If the photo of the two slices are blown up it looks like there is a hard cheese added, in addition to the mozzarella.

https://thepizzasnob.net/2012/09/14/thin-crispy-crunchy-staten-islands-joe-pats/

In this article it does say Joe and Pat's uses a touch of percorino romano.

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/11/06/dining/pizza-2002-the-state-of-the-slice.html 

I couldn't see any kind of hard cheese on my slices, but knew there must be some other cheese other than Grande.

Norma

What did the sauce taste like to you?
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on December 01, 2016, 12:24:50 PM
What did the sauce taste like to you?

Ryan,

This was just my personal opinion of how the sauce tasted.  It was a little sweet with a little bit of tang.  For my tastes it was very good.  I am not sure if any hard cheese was used, but think there might have been.  I just licked some of the sauce off of one edge and really liked it.  I didn't really see anything in the sauce.

Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: johnnytuinals on December 10, 2016, 10:59:23 PM
Here is my say about Joe and Pats Pizza
It does not get any better to have a slice of Joe and Pats(best pizza I have ever tasted}
They have the BEST sauce and think that they use Grande chesse
If you are on staten island on a Monday or Tuesday go buy a few large pizzas and freeze them since on those days they are only $10 per large plain pie
As for the sauce you can buy it at around $3 for a 24oz cup(I buy 5 or 7 cups when I am in the area and freeze it when I get home}
Nobody can make a Joe and Pats Pizza and I think its the sauce that makes the pie....................JT
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: invertedisdead on December 10, 2016, 11:04:04 PM
Here is my say about Joe and Pats Pizza
It does not get any better to have a slice of Joe and Pats(best pizza I have ever tasted}
They have the BEST sauce and think that they use Grande chesse
If you are on staten island on a Monday or Tuesday go buy a few large pizzas and freeze them since on those days they are only $10 per large plain pie
As for the sauce you can buy it at around $3 for a 24oz cup(I buy 5 or 7 cups when I am in the area and freeze it when I get home}
Nobody can make a Joe and Pats Pizza and I think its the sauce that makes the pie....................JT

Isn't the sauce just tomatoes? What's in it?
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: johnnytuinals on December 10, 2016, 11:07:16 PM
If I knew what was in the sauce I would be making my own.
You should see them making hundreds of pies on a Friday and sat nites where others that
make pizza don't come close..................JT
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: HarryHaller73 on December 10, 2016, 11:11:55 PM
If I knew what was in the sauce I would be making my own.
You should see them making hundreds of pies on a Friday and sat nites where others that
make pizza don't come close..................JT

I've had Joe and Pat's many times, it's most likely a CA tomato with pecorino romano and there are many types of pecorino romano.  Sauce is a bit tart, a bit sweet, and salty glutamatic acids from the romano.  It's not a complex sauce.  Some oregano, and light splashes of other things.   What makes their pie special is their thin crust and the balance of other ingredients within that thin crispy yet foldable crust.

Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on December 11, 2016, 08:54:00 AM
From this article the below poster said he worked there in the early 1970's and Angelo would cook the sauce.  Whether that was for their round pies, or if they still cook the sauce who knows.

http://www.silive.com/news/index.ssf/2007/10/food_network_cameras_take_slic.html


bobs77Oct 22, 2007
I worked for Joe and Pats for 5 years back in the early 1970's. Back when Angelo (Joe and Pats Dad) would cook his sauce for 12 -14 hours I remember having to prep it when it was done ... and cleaning the pot!!!! Rolling the 100+ lbs of dough several times a week ...Cutting my finger on a slicer at 1AM ... Going out weekends with Ciro, Mark, Ivan, Bruce, Doug.. to Jokers 2, Brothers 3 Those were all parts Joe and Pats history... Besides they did make the BEST pizza...

Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: hotsawce on December 11, 2016, 11:41:23 PM
The sauce I've had is definitely not cooked. In my opinion, it's just crushed tomato.

From this article the below poster said he worked there in the early 1970's and Angelo would cook the sauce.  Whether that was for their round pies, or if they still cook the sauce who knows.

http://www.silive.com/news/index.ssf/2007/10/food_network_cameras_take_slic.html


bobs77Oct 22, 2007
I worked for Joe and Pats for 5 years back in the early 1970's. Back when Angelo (Joe and Pats Dad) would cook his sauce for 12 -14 hours I remember having to prep it when it was done ... and cleaning the pot!!!! Rolling the 100+ lbs of dough several times a week ...Cutting my finger on a slicer at 1AM ... Going out weekends with Ciro, Mark, Ivan, Bruce, Doug.. to Jokers 2, Brothers 3 Those were all parts Joe and Pats history... Besides they did make the BEST pizza...

Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on December 12, 2016, 07:57:52 AM
The sauce I've had is definitely not cooked. In my opinion, it's just crushed tomato.

Lou,

I agree.  I just posted what a former worker said, but really didn't think the sauce was cooked.

This is what Adam Kuban pointed out.

Anyone familiar with Joe & Pat's will instantly recognize the pizza at Rubirosa. It is a carbon copy of its Castleton Corners forbear, where A. J. began working at age 12. A patchwork of good-quality fresh mozzarella covers a bright-red swath of slightly sweet crushed tomatoes -- all atop an ultrathin crust that is crunchy at the edges but gives way to a crisp and pliant middle.

http://newyork.seriouseats.com/2011/02/rubirosa-little-italy-italian-pizza-nyc-opening-review.html

The below article also says the sauce at Joe and Pat's is a mildly sweet crushed tomato sauce.

http://nymag.com/listings/restaurant/joe-and-pats-pizzeria/

Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on December 12, 2016, 08:46:14 AM
In the below video the revolving oven can be seen at Rubirosa.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCN5JSlznW4

A pizza maker stretching a pizza dough at Rubirosa at about 30 seconds into the video.  I wouldn't tend to think that was a gluten-free dough, but don't know.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5EZRyJdK988 

Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on December 13, 2016, 09:10:05 PM
These were the two attempts at a Joe and Pat's pizza today.  The first pizza had Grande cheese and the second one used the regular cheddar.

Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on December 13, 2016, 09:12:39 PM
Second attempt.

Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on December 24, 2016, 11:25:52 AM
Went to Joe and Pat's again last evening.  I will post other photos of Joe and Pat's when there is time.  Gotta make dough batchs at market soon.  Was Christmas shopping early this morning and didn't get home until after midnight last night.

Joe and Pat's was very busy last evening.  Called ahead and there was a 20 minute wait time for what I ordered.  Got to watch more and see the cheese diced size.  The dices were bigger than I thought before.  The doughs looked on the dry side.  While I was waiting I ordered a small container of sauce.  It is good, but don't think a lot is added. 

The photos of the Joe and Pat's slices are at my daughter's home.  The others photos are the 2 slices I ordered to take home, when I got home.  When the one cold slice was folded, it cracked like a cracker, near the rim crust.  I didn't see any hard cheeses added to any of the pizzas.  That Fish oven sure can handle a lot of pizzas.  There was only one man tending the oven and one man topping all of the pizzas.

Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on December 24, 2016, 11:32:07 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: invertedisdead on December 24, 2016, 12:15:56 PM
Pie look great, looks like fresh basil in the sauce? How much oil do you think is in the dough?
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on December 24, 2016, 08:29:49 PM
Pie look great, looks like fresh basil in the sauce? How much oil do you think is in the dough?

Ryan,

I just tasted a tiny bit of sauce quickly this morning, but did not decect basil.   I will taste it more tomorrow.  I have no idea how much oil is in Joe and Pat's dough.  Maybe another member can help with what they think would a decent amount of oil to try. 

The one man that was pounding out the doughs was pounding two at a time.  I did not see any bubbles of fermentation in the skins. 

The taste of the crust wasn't anything special, but the thinness, crispness of the bottom crust, and the balance of cheese and sauce were very good.  The pepperoni is very good too.  The pepperoni is applied haphazardly.  The pepperoni sits on top of the dices of cheese before the pizzas go into the oven.  The sauce looked very thin when it was applied.  Not a lot of sauce is used.

Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on December 24, 2016, 08:44:32 PM
Some of the photos from Joe and Pat's Pizza.

Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: invertedisdead on December 24, 2016, 10:33:53 PM
Thanks for the tips, I want To try this one again on stone instead of screen like I used last time. My peel can only do 14" so that's what I can do. They look to use a solid amount of pepperoni too. Since it will bake differently on stone I'm not sure how much water and oil to use. Maybe 55+ 3% oil? Something to mess with after the holidays.
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on December 25, 2016, 06:28:00 AM
Thanks for the tips, I want To try this one again on stone instead of screen like I used last time. My peel can only do 14" so that's what I can do. They look to use a solid amount of pepperoni too. Since it will bake differently on stone I'm not sure how much water and oil to use. Maybe 55+ 3% oil? Something to mess with after the holidays.

Ryan,

Yes, Joe and Pat's does use a lot of pepperoni.  Your idea to use the 55% hydration and 3% oil sounds good.  Was the dough strong enough to toss and twirl the last time you tried your dough at Reply 23 https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=45716.msg458365#msg458365 

I am not sure what formulation to try for another attempt at a Joe and Pat's pizza, but might try Peter's formulation for a Mack's pizza.  At Reply 2102 https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9068.msg442769#msg442769  It can be seen that a Mack's pizza is very thin like a Joe and Pat's pizza.  I think Joe and Pat's pizza is a little bit thinner than a Mack's pizza though. The crust isn't as crispy though, but would think it would be if baked longer.  Mack's uses those metal decks too.  The whole flavor profile is a lot different for a Mack's pizza, but then they use a thicker sauce, shred the cheddar, and use more things in their sauce.  Of course using the spiral method of applying the sauce also give a different flavor profile.

Mack's dough can be tossed and twirled like the man at Joe and Pat's did for me at the other visit to Joe & Pat's at Reply 1 https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=45716.msg458188#msg458188 

I tasted a little bit of Joe & Pat's sauce this morning and now there is some kind of fat in the sauce.  It can be tasted and seen.  I have no idea what kind of fat Joe and Pat's adds to their sauce.  I will try to reheat some of Joe & Pat's sauce either later tonight or tomorrow.  I didn't notice the fat before.  Wonder why that just showed up today when I didn't notice it before.  ???  The fat is slippery on my tongue when tasted, so that is what makes me think it is fat.  Any other ideas if it could be something else.  It didn't really have any taste.

Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: invertedisdead on December 25, 2016, 09:48:49 AM
Ryan,

Yes, Joe and Pat's does use a lot of pepperoni.  Your idea to use the 55% hydration and 3% oil sounds good.  Was the dough strong enough to toss and twirl the last time you tried your dough at Reply 23 https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=45716.msg458365#msg458365 

I am not sure what formulation to try for another attempt at a Joe and Pat's pizza, but might try Peter's formulation for a Mack's pizza.  At Reply 2102 https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9068.msg442769#msg442769  It can be seen that a Mack's pizza is very thin like a Joe and Pat's pizza.  I think Joe and Pat's pizza is a little bit thinner than a Mack's pizza though. The crust isn't as crispy though, but would think it would be if baked longer.  Mack's uses those metal decks too.  The whole flavor profile is a lot different for a Mack's pizza, but then they use a thicker sauce, shred the cheddar, and use more things in their sauce.  Of course using the spiral method of applying the sauce also give a different flavor profile.

Mack's dough can be tossed and twirled like the man at Joe and Pat's did for me at the other visit to Joe & Pat's at Reply 1 https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=45716.msg458188#msg458188 

I tasted a little bit of Joe & Pat's sauce this morning and now there is some kind of fat in the sauce.  It can be tasted and seen.  I have no idea what kind of fat Joe and Pat's adds to their sauce.  I will try to reheat some of Joe & Pat's sauce either later tonight or tomorrow.  I didn't notice the fat before.  Wonder why that just showed up today when I didn't notice it before.  ???  The fat is slippery on my tongue when tasted, so that is what makes me think it is fat.  Any other ideas if it could be something else.  It didn't really have any taste.

Norma

Yes, it was toss able. It opened very evenly, but took a bit of effort to open. Especially to that size. Which one is crispier, Mack's or Joe & Pat's? Steel Rotoflex vs steel Fish oven?

Harry gave me some tips on opening their dough, I think I will increase hydration from 52 to 55 or so. The 52% dough I did in the food processor. It does a good job at incorporating low hydration doughs like that. Good info on the sauce - is there a noticeable oregano flavor? Does the tomato taste fresh or more rich and savory? my tasters love the crunch so this is a good style to work on.

Merry Christmas Norma!

Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on December 25, 2016, 10:26:17 AM
Yes, it was toss able. It opened very evenly, but took a bit of effort to open. Especially to that size. Which one is crispier, Mack's or Joe & Pat's? Steel Rotoflex vs steel Fish oven?

Harry gave me some tips on opening their dough, I think I will increase hydration from 52 to 55 or so. The 52% dough I did in the food processor. It does a good job at incorporating low hydration doughs like that. Good info on the sauce - is there a noticeable oregano flavor? Does the tomato taste fresh or more rich and savory? my tasters love the crunch so this is a good style to work on.

Merry Christmas Norma!

Ryan,

Great to hear your dough was toss-able, and opened very evenly.  Even if it took a bit of effort to open that sounds good.

Joe and Pat's pizzas are a lot crisper than Mack's.  Yes, Mack's uses the steel deck Rotoflex oven and Joe and Pat's uses the steel deck Fish ovens.

Thanks for telling us that Harry gave you some tips on opening the dough.  Let us know with photos (if you can), if you decide to try out your new formulation.

I have to taste the sauce again later.  If I recall right the sauce might taste like the Alta Cucina's.  I have to get a can of the Alta Cucina's to taste again.  No, no noticeable taste of oregano so far.  The tomato sauce tastes very fresh. 

Glad to hear you tasters love the crunch.

Merry Christmas to you too!

Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: invertedisdead on December 25, 2016, 10:47:44 AM
Norma,

Sounds spot on with what Harry told me about the sauce. He also said Alta Cucina's, milled, with minimal seasoning.
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: waltertore on December 25, 2016, 12:50:55 PM
Norma: Those skins look like a pile of tortillas :)  I see a docker above them.  Do they use that on each skin?  Walter
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on December 25, 2016, 04:53:45 PM
Norma,

Sounds spot on with what Harry told me about the sauce. He also said Alta Cucina's, milled, with minimal seasoning.

Ryan,

I don't know how correct Harry is about the sauce now.

Just a little while ago the sauce was taken outside, after I got home from my Mom's.  The sun is almost setting so the photos aren't the best. 

There seems to be a lot more going on in the sauce than I originally thought.  It can be seen how the fat is around the edges of the plastic container.  What the twirly thing is in the sauce I sure don't know.  ??? It did taste something like a meat.  On my one finger it can be seen what it looked like after it was chewed a bit.  :-X The last two photos is something else that is in the sauce.  I wonder if that is a meat of some kind.  Black pepper can also be seen.  I ate a little more and when all together it still tastes very fresh.  I never would have believed that this was the same sauce that was on my pizza and slices.  I will try to eat the slices later on tonight. 

Anyone have other ideas of what is going on in the sauce and why the sauce changed so much since I got it?

I can now understand how hard it is to try and clone someones sauce.  :-D

Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on December 25, 2016, 04:54:31 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on December 25, 2016, 05:01:03 PM
Norma: Those skins look like a pile of tortillas :)  I see a docker above them.  Do they use that on each skin?  Walter

Walter,
 
You are right that those skins look like a pile of tortillas.   :-D  Good eye that you picked up that dough docker.   8)  I did not see them use the dough docker at all, but things were moving so fast that they could have.  I also wondered while I was waiting about maybe there being more than one dough in those metal containers.  The reason I say that is because one man came from the back and picked up about 12 containers while I was there and took them back somewhere.  I guess to be washed.  As fast as those pies were going in and out of the oven I would think there would be more containers sitting out front.

Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: johnnytuinals on December 26, 2016, 10:41:51 PM
if you look at the first picture the clock says around 6pm
Joe and Pats has at least 20-50 doughs waiting to be made about that time.
As I said before they make hundreds of pizzas each nite and maybe more on Friday and Sat nites.
I have never tasted any sauce like theirs ever.
People for years tired to copy it but as of now nobody has.......JT
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: HarryHaller73 on December 26, 2016, 11:15:59 PM

Anyone have other ideas of what is going on in the sauce and why the sauce changed so much since I got it?

I can now understand how hard it is to try and clone someones sauce.  :-D

Norma

Those long random "thingies" are probably strands and clumps of cheese.   I also see powdered romano in there.  If you take cheese and put them in tomato and chill it, they might take on hydration and plump up.  those thingies could also be some kind of mozzarella grates.  Just a guess...  I doubt they put meat in their pizza sauces.
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: HarryHaller73 on December 26, 2016, 11:28:26 PM
Some of the photos from Joe and Pat's Pizza.

Norma

it's interesting to see the guy doubling dough skins and pressing it.  Someone here mentioned that it was a multi step process to stretch dough.  Maybe they take 2 smaller dough skins and "laminate" them?
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on December 27, 2016, 06:33:20 AM
if you look at the first picture the clock says around 6pm
Joe and Pats has at least 20-50 doughs waiting to be made about that time.
As I said before they make hundreds of pizzas each nite and maybe more on Friday and Sat nites.
I have never tasted any sauce like theirs ever.
People for years tired to copy it but as of now nobody has.......JT

johnnytuinals,

I saw in about a 15 minute time how many pizzas they were cranking out.   :o

Did you ever save some of their sauce for a couple of days to see if it changed? 

I reheated the two slices last night and they didn't taste anything like they did when they were fresh.  I did see a piece of what looked like fresh basil in the one slice though. I took some photos but don't have time to post them now. 

Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on December 27, 2016, 06:39:28 AM
Those long random "thingies" are probably strands and clumps of cheese.   I also see powdered romano in there.  If you take cheese and put them in tomato and chill it, they might take on hydration and plump up.  those thingies could also be some kind of mozzarella grates.  Just a guess...  I doubt they put meat in their pizza sauces.

HarryHaller73,

They thingies might be stands and clumps of cheese, but they had more of the texture of meat when eaten.  I made some roasted tomatoes at market yesterday and for some reason the hard cheese didn't melt.  I will post about that later on the roasted tomatoes thread. When tasting the roasted tomatoes yesterday that hard cheese did melt in my mouth when eaten.

When I find time I am going to try to strain out anything that was in the sauce.

Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on December 27, 2016, 06:43:46 AM
In the 5th and 6th photos at Reply 100 https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=45716.msg462046#msg462046  if those photos are blown up, it can be seen there is a sheet tray of dough with a dough scraper in the dough.  Some of the doughs are divided.  I wonder what those doughs are for.  I think I might have another photo on my cell that shows that better.

Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on December 27, 2016, 10:16:10 AM
This thread is so interesting...and I see heads down to Central NJ, too..JPB territory. Thinking a trip to Papa's is in order very soon..never been, and it's close by.


JKB, LOL at your note in Reply 10..just saw it  :-D
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: johnnytuinals on December 27, 2016, 01:12:06 PM
johnnytuinals,

I saw in about a 15 minute time how many pizzas they were cranking out.   :o

Did you ever save some of their sauce for a couple of days to see if it changed? 

I reheated the two slices last night and they didn't taste anything like they did when they were fresh.  I did see a piece of what looked like fresh basil in the one slice though. I took some photos but don't have time to post them now. 

Norma


Whenever I go pass Joe and Pats I always end up buying a few large cups of their pizza sauce and I bag them in little baggies to freeze...
The sauce taste great when you unfreeze it and use it on your own pie.
I like how they have all those doughs ready to make on the side from the pictures.
Seems that most places don't stack their doughs on top of one another since most don't do as well in business as joe and pats...JT
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on December 27, 2016, 08:46:14 PM

Whenever I go pass Joe and Pats I always end up buying a few large cups of their pizza sauce and I bag them in little baggies to freeze...
The sauce taste great when you unfreeze it and use it on your own pie.
I like how they have all those doughs ready to make on the side from the pictures.
Seems that most places don't stack their doughs on top of one another since most don't do as well in business as joe and pats...JT

johnnytuinals

I should have asked for a few large cups of their sauce.  I just asked for some extra sauce for dipping.  Did you see where they get the sauce from?  I saw right under the diced cheese that there is a big stainless steel bucket with sauce in. 

I am not to sure why they stack their doughs.  I found out today, that the one dough I tried became drier until I dressed and baked one attempt.

Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on December 27, 2016, 08:53:48 PM
I made another attempt at a Joe and Pat's pizza today.  I didn't have any plum tomatoes to try.  I used a different formulation, and the results were good.  I guess the TF wasn't exactly right, but the bottom of the pie was crispy and tasted very good. I used the Vermont Smoked Pepperoni today.  Two doughs were pounded on at the same time.  The second attempt also turned out well, but no photos were taken of the second attempt.  I added some powdered Romano and some hard cheese part of the way though the bake

Norma.
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on December 27, 2016, 08:55:18 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on December 28, 2016, 06:58:54 AM
These were the two slices from Joe and Pat's before they were reheated and almost reheated.  It sure doesn't look like much of any extra ingredients were in the sauce from those slices.  They were kept too long before the reheat and dried out.

The one photo of the paper plate is just to show how greasy it was.

Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: johnnytuinals on December 28, 2016, 11:00:23 PM
johnnytuinals

I should have asked for a few large cups of their sauce.  I just asked for some extra sauce for dipping.  Did you see where they get the sauce from?  I saw right under the diced cheese that there is a big stainless steel bucket with sauce in. 

I am not to sure why they stack their doughs.  I found out today, that the one dough I tried became drier until I dressed and baked one attempt.

Norma

The Extra sauce I think came from the back of Joe and pats since they had to put them in 32oz cups.
I think I bought 6 large cups and they brought them out from the back.Think the price was around $3 per large cup.(well worth it}
Only store bought sauce I ever have tried was Anna Lisa Puree in bottles that tasted almost as close to joe and pats.....JT
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: HarryHaller73 on December 28, 2016, 11:02:12 PM
The Extra sauce I think came from the back of Joe and pats since they had to put them in 32oz cups.
I think I bought 6 large cups and they brought them out from the back.Think the price was around $3 per large cup.(well worth it}
Only store bought sauce I ever have tried was Anna Lisa Puree in bottles that tasted almost as close to joe and pats.....JT

Question, is that the same sauce used on their pizzas?  They also serve entrees like spaghetti and meatballs w/marinara sauce.  I'm pretty sure they use a simple #10 can of Stanislaus product with some spices and romano for pizza.  You could make a 6 lb batch at home for $5.

Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: johnnytuinals on December 28, 2016, 11:24:49 PM
Question, is that the same sauce used on their pizzas?  They also serve entrees like spaghetti and meatballs w/marinara sauce.  I'm pretty sure they use a simple #10 can of Stanislaus product with some spices and romano for pizza.  You could make a 6 lb batch at home for $5.

I agree ifff it would taste like Joe and Pats pizza sauce.
Yep its the same sauce that they brought from the back.(in the front they are to busy}
Even if yea use Stanislaus with what ever you want to put into it ,,It
will not taste like Joe and Pats pizza sauce.....

UPDATED
I never saw 4 people just making pizza at the same time as you see in the video.
Most places you have ONE person making a pizza.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zyJDFRGV3k
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: HarryHaller73 on December 28, 2016, 11:26:37 PM

Even if yea use Stanislaus with what ever you want to put into it ,,It
will not taste like Joe and Pats pizza sauce.....



Right, it must be those meaty hookworm things Norma found in her side of sauce.
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on December 29, 2016, 05:05:42 AM
The Extra sauce I think came from the back of Joe and pats since they had to put them in 32oz cups.
I think I bought 6 large cups and they brought them out from the back.Think the price was around $3 per large cup.(well worth it}
Only store bought sauce I ever have tried was Anna Lisa Puree in bottles that tasted almost as close to joe and pats.....JT

johnnytuinals,

I am trying to figure out where the small container of Joe and Pat's sauce I got came from.  I did not see anyone go into the back kitchen the whole time I was there, except for the man that took some metal containers back to the kitchen.  When the man opened the kitchen door I got a quick glimpse of the kitchen.  It was straight back to where you come into Joe and Pat's.

The next time you got to Joe and Pat's (to purchase some sauce) would you do a favor?  The favor would be to let a little bit of the sauce sit in a small container in your fridge for a few days to see if it changes.  If I find time today I am going to strain anything out of the sauce I can find. I still don't understand why that sauce changed in appearance.  ???

Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on December 29, 2016, 05:11:44 AM

UPDATED
I never saw 4 people just making pizza at the same time as you see in the video.
Most places you have ONE person making a pizza.


johnnytuinals,

That was me that took that video.  I wonder why there were so many people making the pizzas that day when it wasn't really busy.  When I was there last Friday there wasn't that many people making the pizzas, and it was crazy busy.  I wonder why that was.  Maybe if that video is watched from frame to frame and stopped something else might be found.

Norma

Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on December 29, 2016, 10:35:09 AM
I removed as much of Joe and Pat's sauce as I could from the small plastic container as I could. A strainer was used to drain off the liquid.  It can be seen that there are a lot of things in the sauce.  I think the two of the bigger things might be onions but am not sure.  There are some harder seeds in the sauce, but I don't know what they are.  If this sauce is what Joe and Pat's uses for their pizzas it would be hard to figure out what to do.

I put the sauce from the strainer on the plate and am going to wait until it dries to see if anything else can be seen. 

The photos aren't the best, but took the plate and strainer outside.  It snowed early this morning and is cloudy today.  I slipped on the deck from the slush. 

Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: invertedisdead on December 29, 2016, 11:10:10 AM
I don't know, could be way off since I've never even had the pizza, but photo 004 seems like some kind of pork something.
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on December 29, 2016, 11:45:45 AM
I don't know, could be way off since I've never even had the pizza, but photo 004 seems like some kind of pork something.

Thanks for your thought about that thread maybe being pork.  I sure don't know what it is.

Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: HarryHaller73 on December 29, 2016, 11:51:14 AM
I don't know, could be way off since I've never even had the pizza, but photo 004 seems like some kind of pork something.

Might be bits of pancetta, my guess is it's probably not their pizza sauce, most likely a house marinara or dipping sauce in the vein of old school Nonna's Sunday gravy.   All that orange residue tells me it was also cooked with olive oil. 

Their pizza sauce is relatively clean, with a little bit of spices and romano. 
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: invertedisdead on December 29, 2016, 12:02:25 PM
That slice looks great!
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on December 29, 2016, 12:04:14 PM
Might be bits of pancetta, my guess is it's probably not their pizza sauce, most likely a house marinara or dipping sauce in the vein of old school Nonna's Sunday gravy.   All that orange residue tells me it was also cooked with olive oil. 

Their pizza sauce is relatively clean, with a little bit of spices and romano.

HarryHaller73,

I also thought their pizza sauce was relatively clean.  Some more photos.

https://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/joe-and-pats-staten-island

What I got looks more like their calmari dipping sauce, but mine wasn't that thick when I got it.

https://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/joe-and-pats-staten-island?select=lcRRcBSDp_yDcwJf9IFdkA

Norma

Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: invertedisdead on December 29, 2016, 12:07:39 PM
It seems like there's more spices on the bottom of Norma's sauce cup than there is on that whole slice.
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on December 29, 2016, 12:20:21 PM
It seems like there's more spices on the bottom of Norma's sauce cup than there is on that whole slice.

I agree Ryan.  Would like to see what johnnytuinals sauce looks like that he purchases at Joe and Pat's.

Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: invertedisdead on December 29, 2016, 08:41:40 PM
Another shot at a Joe & Pats style, had a 250g dough ball in the fridge from a previous bake so not really formulated to this style. When I was tipping the dough out of the plastic container a corner stuck and the dough flipped over on itself so the shaping turned out a bit oblong. Also cheese cooked too long and too much of it; didn't seem like I put a lot on but I'm not used to cubed mozz.
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: johnnytuinals on December 29, 2016, 09:21:14 PM
Don't think I will be at Joe and Pats anytime soon.
Myself I feel nobody will be able to copy it and I am sure many have asked them in the past
in what they put into their sauce.
Best time to buy their pizza are Mondays and Tuesdays when their pizza are $10 per
large pie....Buy 10 pizzas and freeze it,,,it even taste great a month or 2 laying in the freezer
and reheating it.......JT
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on December 29, 2016, 09:31:03 PM
Another shot at a Joe & Pats style, had a 250g dough ball in the fridge from a previous bake so not really formulated to this style. When I was tipping the dough out of the plastic container a corner stuck and the dough flipped over on itself so the shaping turned out a bit oblong. Also cheese cooked too long and too much of it; didn't seem like I put a lot on but I'm not used to cubed mozz.

Ryan,

Your Joe and Pat's pizza looks great!  How did you like it?

Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: invertedisdead on December 29, 2016, 09:50:57 PM
Ryan,

Your Joe and Pat's pizza looks great!  How did you like it?

Norma

Thanks Norma, it was really tasty. The crispy charred edges are so good, they're addicting. This style pie is great. I grew up on cracker crust pizza so thin and crispy is in my DNA, I think that's why my tasters and I enjoy this style so much. Might become my standard pie.  :chef:

You really have to be sparing to get the cheese look right though. I'll do another 14" skin next time, not sure how much cheese to use though. 3-4 oz? I think the cube sizes were good, but maybe placed too close together. Too bad I didn't grab a pre bake picture. The way the oil makes its way to the rim and fries it is awesome.
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on December 30, 2016, 07:01:57 PM
Thanks Norma, it was really tasty. The crispy charred edges are so good, they're addicting. This style pie is great. I grew up on cracker crust pizza so thin and crispy is in my DNA, I think that's why my tasters and I enjoy this style so much. Might become my standard pie.  :chef:

You really have to be sparing to get the cheese look right though. I'll do another 14" skin next time, not sure how much cheese to use though. 3-4 oz? I think the cube sizes were good, but maybe placed too close together. Too bad I didn't grab a pre bake picture. The way the oil makes its way to the rim and fries it is awesome.

Ryan,

I didn't know you grew up on cracker style pizza.  How did you bake your Joe and Pat's pizza, and for how long?

It is hard to judge how much of that cubed cheese to add.  I didn't measure how much diced cheese was used in my attempts, but I sure didn't get it right.  The last pie I made on Tuesday night I put way too much diced cheese on.  It ran over the one edge.  :-D

Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: invertedisdead on December 30, 2016, 08:35:14 PM
Ryan,

I didn't know you grew up on cracker style pizza.  How did you bake your Joe and Pat's pizza, and for how long?

It is hard to judge how much of that cubed cheese to add.  I didn't measure how much diced cheese was used in my attempts, but I sure didn't get it right.  The last pie I made on Tuesday night I put way too much diced cheese on.  It ran over the one edge.  :-D

Norma

I baked on stone one rack down from the highest position for 10 minutes at 550. I think I'll try the middle rack next bake and see what happens. This pizza was crispy and charred on the edges but the slices still had a little fold ability. I know a quicker bake would help the cheese melt, but I somewhat feel like a longer home oven bake can sometimes help to cook the pizza and toppings more thoroughly to make up for the lack of thermal mass as Harry mentioned in some thread.

The cheese is tricky, it might even be less cheese than I think. The photo Harry posted shows like an equal portion of cheese bites to sauce bites. I think I need to use half the amount I used, it might only be 2 or 3 ounces on a 14" skin.

Ryan
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: HarryHaller73 on December 30, 2016, 08:44:10 PM
I baked on stone one rack down from the highest position for 10 minutes at 550. I think I'll try the middle rack next bake and see what happens. This pizza was crispy and charred on the edges but the slices still had a little fold ability. I know a quicker bake would help the cheese melt, but I somewhat feel like a longer home oven bake can sometimes help to cook the pizza and toppings more thoroughly to make up for the lack of thermal mass as Harry mentioned in some thread.

The cheese is tricky, it might even be less cheese than I think. The photo Harry posted shows like an equal portion of cheese bites to sauce bites. I think I need to use half the amount I used, it might only be 2 or 3 ounces on a 14" skin.

Ryan

Ryan, first of all very nice looking pie.  Just had a few questions. What type of texture are you getting out of these pizzas baked at 10 min 550 deg?  Are you registering 550 on the stone?  Joe and Pats bakes fast, given the extreme thinness.  It is thin and crispy but there is still hydration for a fold.   If I preheat an oven and get an infrared thermometer reading of my stone at 550,  at 6 minutes at that dough TF, I'm losing inner hydration real fast, anything after will be crunchy cracker and beginning to burn the bottoms.  Just wondering because 10 minutes seems a real long time. 

Also know that different brands of mozzarellas melt different.  Grande WMLM has better structure during a melt, not as much water and doesn't thin out as much.
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: hammettjr on December 30, 2016, 09:41:01 PM

All that orange residue tells me it was also cooked with olive oil. 


Orange grease is a sign of olive oil? In the sauce or on top of the cheese?
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: HarryHaller73 on December 30, 2016, 10:00:12 PM
Orange grease is a sign of olive oil? In the sauce or on top of the cheese?

Orange grease is a sign of any fat cooked with tomato.  Stains a plastic container real good.
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: invertedisdead on December 30, 2016, 10:14:05 PM
Ryan, first of all very nice looking pie.  Just had a few questions. What type of texture are you getting out of these pizzas baked at 10 min 550 deg?  Are you registering 550 on the stone?  Joe and Pats bakes fast, given the extreme thinness.  It is thin and crispy but there is still hydration for a fold.   If I preheat an oven and get an infrared thermometer reading of my stone at 550,  at 6 minutes at that dough TF, I'm losing inner hydration real fast, anything after will be crunchy cracker and beginning to burn the bottoms.  Just wondering because 10 minutes seems a real long time. 

Also know that different brands of mozzarellas melt different.  Grande WMLM has better structure during a melt, not as much water and doesn't thin out as much.

Thanks Harry, not sure of my stone temp, don't have an IR but it sure seems weak. My stone is cheap and thin and cracked in half, doesn't seem to hold temperature well. I think I would get great improvement with a suitable replacement. I agree 10 minutes seems long for a dough this thin. It was only crackery at the ends though and quite a ways away from burning on the bottom, should have grabbed some under crust pictures. I did a party cut since it came out oblong and the inner squares I could fold like a taco. This was Saputo Gold, haven't been able to track down Grande. I think the stone performance is really off, might try a lower rack position.
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: HarryHaller73 on December 30, 2016, 10:27:10 PM
This was Saputo Gold, haven't been able to track down Grande. I think the stone performance is really off, might try a lower rack position.

I was thinking you could try drying out your mozzarella cubes a bit in the fridge overnight to get those Joe and Pats cheese moons if you can't find Grande.
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: invertedisdead on December 30, 2016, 11:27:18 PM
I've done that with fresh mozzarella, might try that on my next pie, will do this style for sure. Have you settled in on a hydration for this? I know you mentioned trying 60%
How much cheese would you expect on a 14" pizza?
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: HarryHaller73 on December 30, 2016, 11:41:14 PM
I've done that with fresh mozzarella, might try that on my next pie, will do this style for sure. Have you settled in on a hydration for this? I know you mentioned trying 60%
How much cheese would you expect on a 14" pizza?

I haven't made a pie since last time.. I was thinking trying 55% with more oil like 5-7% for next experiment, to hydrate more with oil, and bake past that threshold where oil no longer is a tenderizer within such a thin pie.

I dunno about how much cheese for 14".  At 18" and regular NY style, I go 13-14oz which is heavier than most here, and I also go 0.091 to 0.094 for TF and never cold ferment NY dough. max 12 hours RT so....

I'd probably cut the mozzarella down to 1/2 for Joe and Pats and up the romano powder 100% and have it swimming in the tomatoes.  TF 0.073 or so.  Looks like they might use a sheeter in the back, some dude brings up a batch of floured up skins looking like tortilla dough and then some dude taking two of them and press them on each other  to equate to the right weight/TF..   Also know that romano powder is 30-40% less weight than grated.. It's dehydrated, which makes it sharper which is what I taste in their sauce, not grated. 

I'm just brainstorming.
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on December 31, 2016, 06:20:57 AM
I baked on stone one rack down from the highest position for 10 minutes at 550. I think I'll try the middle rack next bake and see what happens. This pizza was crispy and charred on the edges but the slices still had a little fold ability. I know a quicker bake would help the cheese melt, but I somewhat feel like a longer home oven bake can sometimes help to cook the pizza and toppings more thoroughly to make up for the lack of thermal mass as Harry mentioned in some thread.

The cheese is tricky, it might even be less cheese than I think. The photo Harry posted shows like an equal portion of cheese bites to sauce bites. I think I need to use half the amount I used, it might only be 2 or 3 ounces on a 14" skin.

Ryan

Ryan,

Thanks for telling me how you baked and at what temperature.

When I was at Joe and Pat's the last time, they were just free throwing the diced cheese on each pizza.  I guess you can learn about how much to apply.  The diced pieces of cheese looked bigger than on the below pizza at Joe and Pat's. 

Maybe an idea might be to count the moon shaped melted cheese to try.  Paulie Gee posted at http://www.seriouseats.com/2014/05/nyc-best-pizza-across-boroughs-tour-with-paulie-gee-kenji.html about Joe and Pat's with a nice photo.

Probably each kind of mozzarella, or other cheese will melt differently.  I used cheddar on my last attempts, but might try Saputo in the next attempt.

In this article Ed Levine says that the sauce is made with California-grown tomatoes, that come from seeds of the Italian San Marzano tomatoes. They probably are Alta Cucina's.

http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2004/11/joe-pats.html

Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: invertedisdead on December 31, 2016, 11:59:55 AM
Good info Harry, Norma. Thanks!

Harry my latest NY style was around there with cheese and TF, scaled down a tad for a 17" pie versus your 18. I really enjoyed it.
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: HarryHaller73 on December 31, 2016, 11:29:23 PM
Good info Harry, Norma. Thanks!

Harry my latest NY style was around there with cheese and TF, scaled down a tad for a 17" pie versus your 18. I really enjoyed it.

Also know that they are baked on steel.  And they are not cracker pizzas.
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: invertedisdead on January 01, 2017, 12:16:57 AM
The rim is cracker like though, yeah?
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: HarryHaller73 on January 01, 2017, 12:35:11 AM
The rim is cracker like though, yeah?

It's just a thinner NY pizza.  Has no relevance to Chicago cracker pizza.  Some pies/slices get charred alot but there's hydration in the innards.

In NYC, people refer to Staten Island pizza as Staten Island pizza, and not NY pizza.  When one goes for Staten Island pizza, that's what they're gong for.
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: invertedisdead on January 01, 2017, 02:07:35 AM
But isnt the rim thin and crunchy like a cracker crust corner?
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on January 01, 2017, 06:49:21 AM
The rim is cracker like though, yeah?

Ryan,

Harry is right that it really isn't a cracker crust.  Maybe this article will explain a little more.  Peterson say once baked, the crust is “cracker-thin, but still nice and crispy”.  It's hard to explain unless you have eaten a Joe and Pat's pizza.  It is somewhat like a NY pizza, in that it still can be folded, but is a lot thinner. 

http://www.eater.com/2015/12/8/9871964/best-pizza-nyc


From this article:

Thin as it is, the crust at Denino’s seems thick compared with that of Joe & Pat’s Pizzeria and Restaurant, on a working-class commercial stretch of Victory Boulevard in the middle of the island. It was founded in 1960 by Joe and Pat Pappalardo, and the most popular pizza has an imperially thin crust, crisper than regular Neapolitan, with a sprightly tomato sauce and memorably good mozzarella.
The best seats in the house are along a counter that faces the pizza ovens and prep counter, creating a kind of pizza theater. When I visited, the pizzaiolo nicknamed Big John was forming balls of dough into small flat rounds, leaning them against one another to make a long slouching line of crusts waiting for their final stretch.
“What’s the most popular slice?” I asked him.
“Most people like pepperoni,” he said, pausing just a moment to wipe his floury hands on his apron before returning to his lunchtime preparations.


http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/30/dining/staten-island-pizzas-that-stood-the-test-of-time.html   

I ate pizza at Denino's and it was nothing like Joe and Pats. 

I wonder it letting those partially opened dough balls sit out if that might give them a more crackery crisp when baked.  I noticed on the second dough, that was sitting partially opened, until I made the first pizza on Tuesday, that it was more crispy when baked and cut. 

I have made some cracker crust pizzas and Joe and Pat's isn’t anything like that.  The best I can do is post a photo of what a slice looks like when it is folded from the first visit.  If you like you can click on the photo to enlarge, then use the slidebar to see the whole slice.

Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: jkb on January 01, 2017, 07:12:53 AM
I don't see myself getting to Staten Island any time soon. I wish I had gone to Rubirosa last time I was in the neighborhood.  We ended up at Prince Street instead and I got a spicy spring because my son likes pepperoni.  He didn't like it and I had to choke it down because I hate to waste food.
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: invertedisdead on January 01, 2017, 10:20:48 AM
That's how most cracker crusts are, they soften up in the box or on the cutter pan and usually become foldable, except the extra crispy corner pieces and the thin dried out crunchy rim on edge pieces which manage to stay crunchy. Since these are cut in slices instead of party cut there are no corner pieces, and I realize it's not laminated like a cracker crust, but it looks to eat just like a thin slightly foldable slice with a crunchy rim to me. Is that not true? The rim not crunchy like a cracker because I don't understand how you could have a nearly black rim that thin without it being crunchy like a cracker.
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: HarryHaller73 on January 01, 2017, 11:36:09 AM
That's how most cracker crusts are, they soften up in the box or on the cutter pan and usually become foldable, except the extra crispy corner pieces and the thin dried out crunchy rim on edge pieces which manage to stay crunchy. Since these are cut in slices instead of party cut there are no corner pieces, and I realize it's not laminated like a cracker crust, but it looks to eat just like a thin slightly foldable slice with a crunchy rim to me. Is that not true? The rim not crunchy like a cracker because I don't understand how you could have a nearly black rim that thin without it being crunchy like a cracker.

Joe and Pat's is definitely not a cracker crust.  When I think of cracker crust, I refer to those pies made with sub 50% hydration and a crust texture like matzoh.  This is where a picture really doesn't demonstrate texture.  The undercrust has some dark spotting and has a crisp but the crumb has chew.   I even see tourists and transplants at Rubirosa eating it with knife and fork.  The rim color may have something to do with a revolving fish oven, and pies are baked on steel, not stone.   Slices that are reheated may look darker.  But a slice folds with ease straight out of the oven.  A lower TF NY dough basically pressed down alot to remove gas.  I like it now and then because it's basically a lighter NY slice with a different tomato/cheese ratio.

I will try make one next week with two doughs pressed together as seen in one of Norma's photos.
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on January 02, 2017, 08:26:10 AM
That's how most cracker crusts are, they soften up in the box or on the cutter pan and usually become foldable, except the extra crispy corner pieces and the thin dried out crunchy rim on edge pieces which manage to stay crunchy. Since these are cut in slices instead of party cut there are no corner pieces, and I realize it's not laminated like a cracker crust, but it looks to eat just like a thin slightly foldable slice with a crunchy rim to me. Is that not true? The rim not crunchy like a cracker because I don't understand how you could have a nearly black rim that thin without it being crunchy like a cracker.

Ryan,

The rim of Joe and Pat's pizza isn't really crunchy.  It is drier than the rest of the slice but not as brittle as you might think.  If you read the rest of this post, I think you can see that there are nearly black rim on De Lorenzo's pizzas too, and they really aren't crunchy like a cracker, but something like Joe and Pat's, but not altogether the same. 

I was trying to think of a way to explain that Joe and Pat's really isn't a cracker style crust. 

If you look at Peter's thread at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7841.0 you can see in his opening post the he mentioned about De Lorenzo's being a cracker style. 

That thread goes on with different members trying to explain what De Lorezno's does.  I think that thread is useful in showing how hard it in trying to clone a pizza. 

Peter's post at Reply 84 https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7841.msg44594#msg44594  t can be seen in his last paragraph Peter says. “After eating the De Lorenzo clone pizza, I could see that it does not have a cracker type crust, at least in comparison with the cracker-type crust I made recently. It was crispy but not cracker-like. That was a useful distinction for me to experience”.

You can also see what Peter had to say at Reply 773  https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=25401.msg282017#msg282017 when I was trying to make a De Lorenzo's pizza, and didn't know how to make the crust. 

When Peter was trying to analyze how De Lorezno's opened their dough at Reply 787 https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=25401.msg282278#msg282278 he explains how the TF changes (decreases) in real time.  De Lorenzo's piled up some skins to in that video. 

I think what I am trying to explain to you is that De Lorenzo's does have some characterizes of a Joe and Pat's pizzas, but they are not the same, just like a cracker style crust wouldn't be the same as Joe and Pat's crust.

Hope that makes some kind of sense.

I am still thinking about if the edges of the skins at Joe and Pat's sit on that piled-up line of doughs the edges dry out some and that might contributed to how the rim crust becomes after it bakes.

Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: invertedisdead on January 02, 2017, 09:15:15 AM
Thanks guys, I just don't see how I can get any closer without trying a real slice so I guess I'll move on to my own thing.
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: rparker on January 02, 2017, 10:03:02 AM
I've been lurking on this thread for a while. I enjoy the thin, crunchy crust thing sometimes. OK, lots of times. It's where I end up when I successfully push the boundaries of my dough by making it as thin as I can without degrading the gluten film.

I've stretched some 325g - 330g dough balls out to 15-inches to get into the 065 - .070 TF range. If my dough is strong enough, I get all three layers and a mighty fine pizza with crunch and chew. If it isn't, I get a pale mass of density that gets tougher by the second.

My two biggest failure points are poor yeast performance and stretching too far and degrading the gluten film to the point where one of the layers will not hold the pizza juices up out of the crumb. (In other words, I let the CF eat too much of the gluten to make such  pie.)

Anyhow, when it works, it is still a NY pie with distinct layers all doing their jobs. It's just that the crumb and the upper sauce-meets-dough layer are less significant. Maybe bottom crunch overload is simpler way to state.

Heaven on Earth is when it all works and that fold and crunch happen all while I ignore common sense and keep my pizza on the juicy side. Man, oh man, that is one fine sweet spot. I'm gonna pull a dough ball out, but I don't think I made any 330g balls this time.  :'( 
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on January 02, 2017, 10:41:31 AM
Thanks guys, I just don't see how I can get any closer without trying a real slice so I guess I'll move on to my own thing.

Ryan,

You might be about right on in your Joe and Pat's pizzas.  I didn't mean to discourage you from making a Joe and Pat's pizza.  :(  I only wanted to let you know how hard it is to make a pizza exactly like a commercial pizzeria, when you don't have the same oven, don't know the dough formulation and a lot of other variables.  To further explain, when trying to make a De Lorenzo's pizza in the oven at market, I never got that right.  The closest I came to a De Lorenzo's pizza was in the Blackstone.

Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: invertedisdead on January 02, 2017, 01:14:56 PM
Ryan,

You might be about right on in your Joe and Pat's pizzas.  I didn't mean to discourage you from making a Joe and Pat's pizza.  :(  I only wanted to let you know how hard it is to make a pizza exactly like a commercial pizzeria, when you don't have the same oven, don't know the dough formulation and a lot of other variables.  To further explain, when trying to make a De Lorenzo's pizza in the oven at market, I never got that right.  The closest I came to a De Lorenzo's pizza was in the Blackstone.

Norma

It's all good, you're right that it is hard without the same setup. I can only take what I see and approximate from there. The crispy rim, the cheese placement, etc. Even harder to try and clone a sauce without tasting it.
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on January 04, 2017, 06:46:32 AM
This wasn't a real attempt on a Joe and Pat's pizza, but an experiment to see what would happen. I didn't have time to mix the same dough as last week.  There was a leftover smaller dough from the NY doughs. The dough was opened somewhat cool. It could be tossed and twirled many times. The pressed out dough, before it was opened the whole way, sat on the bench for 30 minutes.  There was a lot of flour used to press out the dough.  I pounded that dough for about 8 minutes, but there was no way to get all of the bubbles of fermentation out of it.  When I thought all of them were pressed out, more appeared.  The pressed out dough then was hand stretched, then tossed and twirled. It can be seen in the skin after it was tossed and twirled that there still were bubbles of fermentation in the dough skin.  The dough skin did shrink back some when placed on the peel.

I had thought that maybe the dough that was pressed out would dry out more after sitting on the bench.  I don't know if all the flour that was used in pressing and pounding, protected that dough or not from drying out, but it sure wasn't dry at all.

WMLM mozzarella from the Rest. Depot was used for this pie, and it was diced.

Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on January 04, 2017, 06:49:45 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: rparker on January 04, 2017, 07:09:56 AM
Norma, that looks pretty impressive. I agree, sometimes you just have to examine a specific bit of process by simply doing it on your own already known dough.

What do you think was gained by going through that routine? I do a lesser degree of that a lot, but I think it helps reduce bubbles and helps me retain a bit of a stronger skin.

Mostly, though, I started doing something like this to help reduce container stickiness caused by CF condensation. This could be my imagination running wild. I can get away with more skin bashing afterwards, though.

Roy   

Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on January 04, 2017, 07:57:27 AM
Norma, that looks pretty impressive. I agree, sometimes you just have to examine a specific bit of process by simply doing it on your own already known dough.

What do you think was gained by going through that routine? I do a lesser degree of that a lot, but I think it helps reduce bubbles and helps me retain a bit of a stronger skin.

Mostly, though, I started doing something like this to help reduce container stickiness caused by CF condensation. This could be my imagination running wild. I can get away with more skin bashing afterwards, though.

Roy

Roy,

It wasn't really impressive.  Luis took a video of me tossing and throwing the dough.  I don't know what he did with the video but the skin hit the overhead light different times.  Although it didn't tear, it developed a thinner spot. 

I know you do a lot of experiments.  Thanks for your thoughts on what you think happens. 

I really don't know if all of that stuff helped to develop a stronger skin or not. Some of what I thought might happen was the partially pressed out dough would dry out some.  The fan was running yesterday so I thought that might contribute to the skin drying out.  I know if I let a dough ball sit too long on the bench, without being in some kind of container, or plastic bag, before it is opened, it does dry out some.  That partially pressed out dough did feel drier when it was partially pressed out, but somehow it wasn't that way when opening it. 
I was just happy the bottom crust didn't turn into a cracker.  I was kinda surprised that the dough ball could take that much punishment.

Your doing something to reduce container stickiness caused by CF condensation is interesting. 

I think I learned from November that moisture in a container or plastic bag isn't bad. If moisture in those plastic bags would hamper something I sure would have a lot of problems, because most of mine for market doughs do have condensation.

Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: hotsawce on January 07, 2017, 01:05:02 AM
I've eaten Joe and Pats and Rubirosa so many times that I've reverse engineered it. I've even had one of their dough balls in my fridge. I don't want to give away all of their secrets but...

1. It's a NY style dough. It's probably the same hydration, too. And the doughball I had? Particularly well proofed.
2. It's stretched thin..thinner than the thinnest NY pies...so TF is key.
3. Why aren't you seeing much rise? The answer is simple. The fish oven doesn't give much oven spring. It cooks more evenly. Rubirosa doesn't get an initial blast of heat that creates large bubbles or air pockets. Compare it to Marta; even thinner, but full of crazy peaks and valleys. Marta hits those thin pies with bottom heat. Joe and Pats? 8 minute bake that leaves the bottom crust more pale golden brown, but still crispy. It's an even bake.

I'm a firm believe most pizzas are different due to technique...not so much recipe differences. Joe and Pats is no different. It's a unique set of factors related to technique...the thin, even stretch with no cornicione, the bake style, etc that makes it unique. It's definitely not the dough. Or the sauce. Or the cheese. It's the same stuff all the other slice pizzerias in NYC use.
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: jkb on January 07, 2017, 02:51:28 AM

I'm a firm believe most pizzas are different due to technique...not so much recipe differences.


Yes.  I make almost everything with the same recipe.  It's how it's mixed and fermented that makes the difference.
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: rparker on January 07, 2017, 06:48:05 AM
Hotsawce, you have made my morning. On many fronts, at that.

I've never eaten there, which makes this whole thing nebulous for me. I've made some pies with that out of the box mix regimen of mine that have looked and sounded very familiar to videos, but have been afraid to say much. Such is life when you deviate from the norm and resist well intended efforts to be steered back towards common ground. The endless 'what are you thinking', 'why would you do that' and  comments and long lectures to get me to change course left a bit of a scar.

I have a theory on the well proofed concept. Perhaps more observation. Related to your well-proofed observation. I've come to think of it in two ways. The yeast has to perform very well, but it's got to do so within the confines of a very strong and properly aligned gluten structure. Strong enough to not explode with massive oven spring by virtue of stretching the cell walls out. Also, it needs to be strong enough to not collapse under the weight of toppings. Crust integrity.

And a step further, that strength also lends itself useful by helping the crunch layer in my bottom crust. I think it's by virtue of more pressure being pushed down.

Anyhow, a favor, if you will. I'll post a picture below of my most recent dough batch that had been cut open to divide and shape for a mid to long term CF. The yeast had been a tiny bit more developed due to lots of picture taking for this batch, but it is very close to normal. Probably close enough to not have a disclaimer. I realize this is only 2 minutes after the last mixing cycle and, as such, is very young, but I was wondering if you would be able and willing to identify any differences or similarities to what you saw in your dough as reversed and even from the dough ball you got to play with. Never seeing the dough up close, it's like throwing darts blindfolded or being a Jets QB. 

Thanks very much in advance.
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on January 07, 2017, 09:10:48 AM
I've eaten Joe and Pats and Rubirosa so many times that I've reverse engineered it. I've even had one of their dough balls in my fridge. I don't want to give away all of their secrets but...

1. It's a NY style dough. It's probably the same hydration, too. And the doughball I had? Particularly well proofed.
2. It's stretched thin..thinner than the thinnest NY pies...so TF is key.
3. Why aren't you seeing much rise? The answer is simple. The fish oven doesn't give much oven spring. It cooks more evenly. Rubirosa doesn't get an initial blast of heat that creates large bubbles or air pockets. Compare it to Marta; even thinner, but full of crazy peaks and valleys. Marta hits those thin pies with bottom heat. Joe and Pats? 8 minute bake that leaves the bottom crust more pale golden brown, but still crispy. It's an even bake.

I'm a firm believe most pizzas are different due to technique...not so much recipe differences. Joe and Pats is no different. It's a unique set of factors related to technique...the thin, even stretch with no cornicione, the bake style, etc that makes it unique. It's definitely not the dough. Or the sauce. Or the cheese. It's the same stuff all the other slice pizzerias in NYC use.

hotsawce,

Glad to hear you reverse engineered Joe and Pat's and Rubirosa dough.  Thanks for the tips! 

Could I asked two questions about he dough ball that you had that was well proofed.  Those questions would be how did you get the fermentation bubbles out of the skin, and what kind of oven did you bake in that there wasn't a initial blast of heat that creates large bubbles or air pockets?

Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: HarryHaller73 on January 07, 2017, 10:44:43 AM

I'm a firm believe most pizzas are different due to technique...not so much recipe differences. Joe and Pats is no different. It's a unique set of factors related to technique...the thin, even stretch with no cornicione, the bake style, etc that makes it unique. It's definitely not the dough. Or the sauce. Or the cheese. It's the same stuff all the other slice pizzerias in NYC use.

Hands are an important variable.  Joe and Pats also presses dough alot during the opening.  Lots of slaps onto the counter all the way to the rim, this gets rid of more co2 gas than knuckle stretching.
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: rparker on January 07, 2017, 10:58:02 AM
Hands are an important variable.  Joe and Pats also presses dough alot during the opening.  Lots of slaps onto the counter all the way to the rim, this gets rid of more co2 gas than knuckle stretching.
Any idea if the dough discs at the dough bench are there for increased & quick pie production, or do they play a part in the pounding process in some way? (eg -.gluten relaxation, cell strengthening or whatever)
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on January 07, 2017, 11:10:59 AM
Any idea if the dough discs at the dough bench are there for increased & quick pie production, or do they play a part in the pounding process in some way? (eg -.gluten relaxation, cell strengthening or whatever)

Roy,

I have don't have many ideas about the dough discs.  All I know is they do a lot of pounding on them, but it could be seen that the dough discs could be tossed and twirled well.

Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: HarryHaller73 on January 07, 2017, 11:23:57 AM
Any idea if the dough discs at the dough bench are there for increased & quick pie production, or do they play a part in the pounding process in some way? (eg -.gluten relaxation, cell strengthening or whatever)

My understanding is there is a 3 step process.  In the back somewhere there is a dough sheeter, preflattening dough and stacked.  They are brought to the front prep area, and two doughs get pressed onto each other. They are pounded and pressed, slapped on the counter.  The last step is a guy will do a last bit of stretch by toss or whatever to get to proper size and then top and bake.  I would think pressing 2 doughs together like that affects how the crust is or else why do it.  It could have a strengthening effect on the crust.
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on January 07, 2017, 11:59:55 AM
My understanding is there is a 3 step process.  In the back somewhere there is a dough sheeter, preflattening dough and stacked.  They are brought to the front prep area, and two doughs get pressed onto each other. They are pounded and pressed, slapped on the counter.  The last step is a guy will do a last bit of stretch by toss or whatever to get to proper size and then top and bake.  I would think pressing 2 doughs together like that affects how the crust is or else why do it.  It could have a strengthening effect on the crust.

HarryHaller73,

I didn't see them using the two doughs pressed together for every dough.  I wonder what obsauced meant in the other thread about a 3 step process.

Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: HarryHaller73 on January 07, 2017, 12:10:39 PM
HarryHaller73,

I didn't see them using the two doughs pressed together for every dough.  I wonder what obsauced meant in the other thread about a 3 step process.

Norma

Maybe instead of pressing them on the counter, 2 doughs are pre-sheeted together and then stacked?

Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on January 07, 2017, 12:14:30 PM
HarryHaller,

This is one photo of one man opening the doughs at Joe and Pat's from Pizza Quixote (Marty)
http://mainlinepizzaquest.blogspot.com/2014/03/review-joe-pats-pizza-staten-island-ny.html  Those dough balls don't look like they were sheeted to my eyes. 

Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: HarryHaller73 on January 07, 2017, 12:15:31 PM
HarryHaller,

This is one photo of one man opening the doughs at Joe and Pat's from Pizza Quixote (Marty)
http://mainlinepizzaquest.blogspot.com/2014/03/review-joe-pats-pizza-staten-island-ny.html  Those dough balls don't look like they were sheeted to my eyes. 

Norma


You may be right and they may all be made by hand, was guessing sheeters since they sell 400 pies a day
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: HarryHaller73 on January 07, 2017, 12:24:32 PM
Regardless of whether it's sheeted or hands, I'm certain they are two doughs flattened onto each other for their round pies.
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: HarryHaller73 on January 07, 2017, 12:49:22 PM
double dough
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on January 07, 2017, 01:54:59 PM
Regardless of whether it's sheeted or hands, I'm certain they are two doughs flattened onto each other for their round pies.

Harry,

How can you be sure there are two dough flattened onto each other for their rounds pies?  Couldn't they just be flattening two dough balls when they are really busy, or when they want to get ahead for busier times?

I wonder if anyone has every been to PIER 76 http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2010/03/staten-island-pier-76-pizza-like-joe-and-pats-st-george-siny-nyc-review.html

It seems like their pies would be pretty similar to Joe and Pat's. 

Another article that has some in about Joe and Pat's.

http://iwantmorefood.com/2009/08/29/staten-island-pizza-tour-wrap-up/

And a photo that was taken when I was there and another one from the web with what looks like opening one dough ball at a time.

Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: rparker on January 07, 2017, 02:35:53 PM
I was wondering about the double stacked thing and if it was a time saving process, like to do two at once kind of thing. I had a hard time imagining two heavily floured pieces of dough sticking together. I know nothing at all about any form of laminated dough. Not much less than I know about regular dough, come to think of it.  ;D

Those discs in the back all piled up took uniformed enough to be machine made. Could be skilled repetitive action or could be dough for calzones or something.

Anyone know how old the dough is? I didn't remember seeing that talked about.

More videos to study. Thanks Norma!   8)
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: HarryHaller73 on January 07, 2017, 03:15:20 PM
Harry,

How can you be sure there are two dough flattened onto each other for their rounds pies?  Couldn't they just be flattening two dough balls when they are really busy, or when they want to get ahead for busier times?

I wonder if anyone has every been to PIER 76 http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2010/03/staten-island-pier-76-pizza-like-joe-and-pats-st-george-siny-nyc-review.html

It seems like their pies would be pretty similar to Joe and Pat's. 

Another article that has some in about Joe and Pat's.

http://iwantmorefood.com/2009/08/29/staten-island-pizza-tour-wrap-up/

And a photo that was taken when I was there and another one from the web with what looks like opening one dough ball at a time.

Norma

You may be right, but what I see is the doughballs aren't made straight into their 16" pizzas.  They're preflattened, then piled up, whether by hands or sheeter.  Then they are taken and pounded and pressed further in a second step, in my opinion the individual dough skins are too small to make a 16" pizza.  i believe they use 2 of the stacked skins and some of the photos I posted demonstrate that.  You may not see it because they are picking up 2 at a time. 

I doubt they are flattening 2 to save time and peel them off each other afterwards.  Pounding and pressing two doughs together to 16" playing whack a mole like they do won't be easily separated, imo.   They may be doing two smaller pre flattened doughs to get a more even pie thickness.

That said, the pizza there isn't complicated.. whether the dough is doubled or not, one can make a similar Joe and Pat's pizza at home baked on a steel, dough flattened out well all the way to the rim, at a lower TF like 0.07-0.075. It's really about the thinner crust texture, not overbaked so as to still have fold, chew and moisture in the crumb which requires precise bake timing, like a minute too long can make them too crunchy.  imo, this style is easier to make at home than a normal NY slice pie.   Different ratio of cheese, making it more a tomato pie.. using standard Cali tomatoes with good amounts of dry powdered Locatelli, and Grande cubes melting into moons. 


Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on January 07, 2017, 09:23:46 PM
I was wondering about the double stacked thing and if it was a time saving process, like to do two at once kind of thing. I had a hard time imagining two heavily floured pieces of dough sticking together. I know nothing at all about any form of laminated dough. Not much less than I know about regular dough, come to think of it.  ;D

Those discs in the back all piled up took uniformed enough to be machine made. Could be skilled repetitive action or could be dough for calzones or something.

Anyone know how old the dough is? I didn't remember seeing that talked about.

More videos to study. Thanks Norma!   8)

Roy,

This is another video of two people giving their opinions of Joe and Pat's and Denino's.  The taste tests of both pizzas start at about 6.59 minutes into the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJljPVmAHls

Another video that I posted on the Boardwalk thread has a pizza maker at Manco & Manco opening up two dough balls at once.  It has to be watched closely to see him peel both skins apart.  There is not nearly as much bench flour used at Manco & Manco as at Joe and Pat's.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Va0JBfZm1u0 

I talked to a person that worked at one of either Joe and Pat's or Rubirosa and he said no sheeter is used and everything with the dough is done by hand.

I don't know how old the dough is but wouldn't think it would be fermented very much.

Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: rparker on January 07, 2017, 11:35:26 PM
I've seen that couple doing the taste test before. Gotta respect that one bite thing the dude does.  :o     :-D   That's a serious 3-part wolfing down a bite, bite.

I've been watching too many video review of Staten Island pizza joints over the past few months. There was one that I was using as an influence for a moderately thin, but not too thin crust. It was crunchy and mostly stiff. Probably in the .075TF range.  I cannot remember the name of the place. It went way beyond the standard crunchy bottom. I've made a few like it, but it's not my normal thing. Does that ring a bell for anyone? I thought it was the Rubirosa, but I can't find videos showing someone eating a pie without blocking out the crunch layer sound.

Am I using the wrong term for this crunch layer? I hear it many times on various NY style "reviews" and sometime hear "Crispy" and "crunchy", seemingly used interchangeably.
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: johnnytuinals on January 07, 2017, 11:42:23 PM
My understanding is there is a 3 step process.  In the back somewhere there is a dough sheeter, preflattening dough and stacked.  They are brought to the front prep area, and two doughs get pressed onto each other. They are pounded and pressed, slapped on the counter.  The last step is a guy will do a last bit of stretch by toss or whatever to get to proper size and then top and bake.  I would think pressing 2 doughs together like that affects how the crust is or else why do it.  It could have a strengthening effect on the crust.


You really have no clue
Joe and pats never had a dough sheeter in the back and never brought pre pressed dough to the front.
As joe and pats gets busy making hundreds of pizzas each nite and they can make 2 at once as yea see in the picture...I have seen that many of times at 7pm when they are busy.
What joe and pats makes in a hour most other places that makes pizza don't make in a week.............JT
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: HarryHaller73 on January 07, 2017, 11:57:37 PM

You really have no clue
Joe and pats never had a dough sheeter in the back and never brought pre pressed dough to the front.
As joe and pats gets busy making hundreds of pizzas each nite and they can make 2 at once as yea see in the picture...I have seen that many of times at 7pm when they are busy.
What joe and pats makes in a hour most other places that makes pizza don't make in a week.............JT

The sheeter was a theory and it doesn't matter if it's sheeted or if it's done by hand, it's an extra thin tomato pie baked in a fish oven.  and no, they don't put meat in their pizza sauce, nor is it some secret bull%$# recipe they sell in cups.  The stuff you buy is their marinara sauce.  I've lived NY pizza for 40 years to know the kind of bull%$# pizzerias talk up and lies they tell, I don't blame them tho.. I wouldn't doubt there's a sheeter back there, and have a wall of labor when the cameras go rolling with 15 metal cans of dough.  Whenever I go, there's 50 skins already pressed and stacked and only 2 guys making pies.  And they don't toss dough in the air, unless some tourist walks in.  I bet they got some process for that too.  the big proofed dough is for their grandma pies.
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: HarryHaller73 on January 08, 2017, 12:02:13 AM

You really have no clue
Joe and pats never had a dough sheeter in the back and never brought pre pressed dough to the front.
As joe and pats gets busy making hundreds of pizzas each nite and they can make 2 at once as yea see in the picture...I have seen that many of times at 7pm when they are busy.
What joe and pats makes in a hour most other places that makes pizza don't make in a week.............JT

I have never seen anyone peel apart dough there off two skins pressed.  They just press and press and hit it on the counter like wifebeaters. 
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: hotsawce on January 08, 2017, 02:24:06 AM
I actually didn't bake that Rubirosa dough ball. I tried to get the personal size to determine the thickness factor but they gave me the large! Wouldn't fit on my stone.

That being said, I've watched them make at Rubi and Joe and Pats tons of times. No sheeter. No rolling pin at Rubi, but I think it's at Joe and pats. Just press and stretch evenly and thin. You can do it without a roller...I've done it at one of my places of employment that specializes in thin and flat pizza. I don't think the roller is going to make much of a difference in the final product.

Once pre stretched, they stack with some flour layered between them so the skins don't stick to one another. I've done this at Paulie Gee's and other places...it's a time saving thing. No double stretching... all about having it ready to top when the ticket comes in. They are probably no more than 60% hydration.

Biggest thing for this style is the even oven temp. No high bottom heat = more even, flat bake and no large bubbles like Marta or Lucali. So even though the dough is pretty well proofed there's not enough heat to bring it to life (hence the lighter bottom color than even a deck oven NY pie.)

My basic Joe and Pats Recipe:

Flour, water, salt, yeast at 60% hydration. Go thinner than 0.070 TF. Stretch evenly, put a little cornmeal/semolina on your peel, crushed plum tomatoes and cubed low moisture moss (1" x 1" probably) with a little pecorino. bake at 500 on a steel in the middle of the oven for 8ish minutes. This will give you the even heat for a relatively flat pie, the thickness factor for the texture of the pie. Guarantee you'll get really close.
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: hotsawce on January 08, 2017, 02:29:54 AM
You guys hit the nail on the head. Extra thin in a lower heat, evenly balanced oven = even predictable bake. So it doesn't matter if its rolled out with a sheeter or stretched by hand. It's so thin and baked so evenly it's not going to matter...it'll be flat either way.

What you say is the same for almost ANY pizzeria in NYC. I've worked at many that do it...labor turnover is so high and it's typically not some artisan thing where chefs are nurturing dough. It's some guy who was trained by the guy before him to make the pizza quick and efficiently and within a certain window of acceptance so his boss gets off his ass. We've all come up with shortcuts on the line....8pm hits and 20, 3 to 5 pizza tickets hit us all at once. You can bet we aren't stretching every pizza straight from a ball. It's common sense...the myth of legendary pizza is so overplayed at this point. They are all pretty similar it's just the slight technique difference and those other small factors that makes the pies different.

The sheeter was a theory and it doesn't matter if it's sheeted or if it's done by hand, it's an extra thin tomato pie baked in a fish oven.  and no, they don't put meat in their pizza sauce, nor is it some secret bull%$# recipe they sell in cups.  The stuff you buy is their marinara sauce.  I've lived NY pizza for 40 years to know the kind of bull%$# pizzerias talk up and lies they tell, I don't blame them tho.. I wouldn't doubt there's a sheeter back there, and have a wall of labor when the cameras go rolling with 15 metal cans of dough.  Whenever I go, there's 50 skins already pressed and stacked and only 2 guys making pies.  And they don't toss dough in the air, unless some tourist walks in.  I bet they got some process for that too.  the big proofed dough is for their grandma pies.
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on January 08, 2017, 08:58:20 AM

I've been watching too many video review of Staten Island pizza joints over the past few months. There was one that I was using as an influence for a moderately thin, but not too thin crust. It was crunchy and mostly stiff. Probably in the .075TF range.  I cannot remember the name of the place. It went way beyond the standard crunchy bottom. I've made a few like it, but it's not my normal thing. Does that ring a bell for anyone? I thought it was the Rubirosa, but I can't find videos showing someone eating a pie without blocking out the crunch layer sound.

Am I using the wrong term for this crunch layer? I hear it many times on various NY style "reviews" and sometime hear "Crispy" and "crunchy", seemingly used interchangeably.

Roy,

There are pretty many good pizzerias in Staten Island.  I am not sure which video you might have been watching.  Maybe it was Denino's.  I am not sure what you mean about the crunch layer either.  In my opinon Joe and Pat's has the right about of a crispy bottom crust, but then all of us might not agree.

Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on January 08, 2017, 09:02:52 AM
I actually didn't bake that Rubirosa dough ball. I tried to get the personal size to determine the thickness factor but they gave me the large! Wouldn't fit on my stone.

That being said, I've watched them make at Rubi and Joe and Pats tons of times. No sheeter. No rolling pin at Rubi, but I think it's at Joe and pats. Just press and stretch evenly and thin. You can do it without a roller...I've done it at one of my places of employment that specializes in thin and flat pizza. I don't think the roller is going to make much of a difference in the final product.

Once pre stretched, they stack with some flour layered between them so the skins don't stick to one another. I've done this at Paulie Gee's and other places...it's a time saving thing. No double stretching... all about having it ready to top when the ticket comes in. They are probably no more than 60% hydration.

Biggest thing for this style is the even oven temp. No high bottom heat = more even, flat bake and no large bubbles like Marta or Lucali. So even though the dough is pretty well proofed there's not enough heat to bring it to life (hence the lighter bottom color than even a deck oven NY pie.)

My basic Joe and Pats Recipe:

Flour, water, salt, yeast at 60% hydration. Go thinner than 0.070 TF. Stretch evenly, put a little cornmeal/semolina on your peel, crushed plum tomatoes and cubed low moisture moss (1" x 1" probably) with a little pecorino. bake at 500 on a steel in the middle of the oven for 8ish minutes. This will give you the even heat for a relatively flat pie, the thickness factor for the texture of the pie. Guarantee you'll get really close.

hotsawce.

Thanks for your tips!  No oil in the dough?  I guess I won't be able to make a Joe and Pat's pizza.  I don't have a baking steel and probably won't purchase one.

Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: rparker on January 08, 2017, 09:49:28 AM
That couple's taste test surprised me. I listened closely as the dude took his second "bite" while she was yapping along. The outer half of the slice still had a crunchy sound to the bite. One chomp was the outer rim, but not all were. Being to-go slices, I would have thought a softer sounding bite out there. That's one thing I look for in my own, but I never pack them up in a box for 20 minutes and is not much of a challenge like it used to be. 

Most of the videos I see on Joe and Pats do not sound like massive amounts of crispiness, but it is there to some extent. I can only get so much when I go that thin. That's probably a good thing if I am trying to bake an homage to Joe and Pats. I am not afraid of missing on the crispier side, though.   :D

Roy,

There are pretty many good pizzerias in Staten Island.  I am not sure which video you might have been watching.  Maybe it was Denino's.  I am not sure what you mean about the crunch layer either.  In my opinon Joe and Pat's has the right about of a crispy bottom crust, but then all of us might not agree.

Norma
Norma, the crunch layer I yap on about is just that very bottom of the crust that hits the stone where it is crunchy (or crispy)  when bitten. I've always thought of "crisp" as a thinner form of a "crunch". Like the difference between a steel bake or a brick bake when I tried steel last year.

On a side, I understand why some say that this pie can only be done with steel. At a minimum, it very well could be a more natural bake for steel. I might break out my steel sometime soon and try one.

Roy

 

 
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: johnnytuinals on January 08, 2017, 11:53:34 AM
too me there are maybe 10 places that have great pizza on staten island and the
rest are nothing to write home abouts.
Joe and Pats
Nunzios
Joe and Pats Cousins place on Huguenot ave across from train station
Pal Joeys used to be good but have no clue if they are still in business
Als Pizza used to be good when they first opened in the early 70s
Maybe there are a few other places to want to eat at but most just blow and I rather make my own with Grande cheese and would be as good if not better then the others with my BlackStone Grill.(Blackstone is down for the winter and will reopen in the spring}........JT
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: HarryHaller73 on January 08, 2017, 12:37:31 PM
You guys hit the nail on the head. Extra thin in a lower heat, evenly balanced oven = even predictable bake. So it doesn't matter if its rolled out with a sheeter or stretched by hand. It's so thin and baked so evenly it's not going to matter...it'll be flat either way.


I agree, the bake temp is likely at the lower end of NY pizzamaking and on steel.  Also, those Fish ovens revolve creating a kind of convection environment, where the hot air moves which also affects how it bakes and lowers bake time. 

Do you know what flour they use?
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on January 08, 2017, 09:29:06 PM

Most of the videos I see on Joe and Pats do not sound like massive amounts of crispiness, but it is there to some extent. I can only get so much when I go that thin. That's probably a good thing if I am trying to bake an homage to Joe and Pats. I am not afraid of missing on the crispier side, though.   :D
Norma, the crunch layer I yap on about is just that very bottom of the crust that hits the stone where it is crunchy (or crispy)  when bitten. I've always thought of "crisp" as a thinner form of a "crunch". Like the difference between a steel bake or a brick bake when I tried steel last year.

On a side, I understand why some say that this pie can only be done with steel. At a minimum, it very well could be a more natural bake for steel. I might break out my steel sometime soon and try one.

Roy

Roy,

Thanks for telling us that the crunch layer you talk about is just that very bottom of the crust that hits the stone where it is crunchy or crispy when bitten.  Lol, I don't know what I think about the crisp or crunch terms, but you should know since you have done a brick bake and a steel bake last year.

I might give a Joe and Pat's pizza another attempt or two, but found I couldn't even get a De Lorenzo's bake right in the oven at market.

Good luck if you try another steel bake.  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: rparker on January 08, 2017, 11:37:04 PM
Roy,

Thanks for telling us that the crunch layer you talk about is just that very bottom of the crust that hits the stone where it is crunchy or crispy when bitten.  Lol, I don't know what I think about the crisp or crunch terms, but you should know since you have done a brick bake and a steel bake last year.

I might give a Joe and Pat's pizza another attempt or two, but found I couldn't even get a De Lorenzo's bake right in the oven at market.

Good luck if you try another steel bake.  :)

Norma
Norma, the closest I ever got to a de Los was based on pictures and done in my home oven with extremely strong dough, and an uneven home oven with the lower heating element about 1-1/2 inches below the bricks and minimal top heat. That slot here I put the bricks is not even a rack space, but it will fit there.  >:D
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on January 09, 2017, 07:38:10 AM
Norma, the closest I ever got to a de Los was based on pictures and done in my home oven with extremely strong dough, and an uneven home oven with the lower heating element about 1-1/2 inches below the bricks and minimal top heat. That slot here I put the bricks is not even a rack space, but it will fit there.  >:D

Roy,

I am glad at least you could come close based on the photos.  Thanks for telling us what you did. 

Seems like hotsawce (Lou) and Harry are right that this kind of pizza would benefit from a baking steel and a lower temperature.  You might also have good results since you have tired many ways to bake.

Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on January 13, 2017, 10:12:46 PM
Joe and Pat's are opening a pizzeria in Manhattan.

http://ny.eater.com/2017/1/13/14268572/joe-and-pats-nyc-manhattan-location

Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on April 07, 2017, 07:37:07 PM
The Absolute Best Pizza on Staten Island.

At least they agree with what I thought, “Joe and Pats”.

http://www.grubstreet.com/bestofnewyork/best-restaurants-pizza-staten-island-nyc.html

Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: invertedisdead on April 07, 2017, 07:52:05 PM
Funny you bumped this thread, I'm planning on making a Joe & Pat's style tomorrow. Just trying to decide how much oil to put in the dough. I've got some whole milk mozzarella I'll cube up, and some Muir Glen crushed tomatoes I'm going to lightly season. I was thinking of putting some EVOO in the sauce, but Joe & Pat's doesn't have any fat, right?
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: HarryHaller73 on April 08, 2017, 01:43:47 AM
Funny you bumped this thread, I'm planning on making a Joe & Pat's style tomorrow. Just trying to decide how much oil to put in the dough. I've got some whole milk mozzarella I'll cube up, and some Muir Glen crushed tomatoes I'm going to lightly season. I was thinking of putting some EVOO in the sauce, but Joe & Pat's doesn't have any fat, right?

It would behoove you to fly over to NYC and try it.  Joe and Pat's is not a simple picture observation and slapping on some stuff.  Very different pie, than most NY pizzas.
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on April 08, 2017, 08:38:44 AM
Funny you bumped this thread, I'm planning on making a Joe & Pat's style tomorrow. Just trying to decide how much oil to put in the dough. I've got some whole milk mozzarella I'll cube up, and some Muir Glen crushed tomatoes I'm going to lightly season. I was thinking of putting some EVOO in the sauce, but Joe & Pat's doesn't have any fat, right?

Ryan,

I wish you the best of luck when attempting to make a Joe & Pat's pizza today.  :) I have no idea if oil is in the dough or not, and don't know if there is EVOO in the sauce either. 

I made a couple of attempts and didn't post them, but just used the regular market dough and the Alta Cucina tomatoes that were drain some and a few herbs.  Nothing about my attempts reminded me of a Joe and Pat's pizza.  I couldn't even get the dough pressed out right.   :-D

Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on April 08, 2017, 08:41:31 AM

Joe and Pat's is not a simple picture observation and slapping on some stuff.  Very different pie, than most NY pizzas.


HarryHaller73,

I agree that Joe and Pat's is a very different NY pizza.  Do you think how they let those flour covered somewhat pressed out doughs sit for a little changes how they bake? 

I never tasted a pizza like Joe and Pat's before.

Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: hotsawce on April 08, 2017, 01:29:34 PM
Joe and Pats and Rubirosa are a style of their own. No one else is doing it...
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: invertedisdead on April 08, 2017, 01:33:42 PM
It would behoove you to fly over to NYC and try it.  Joe and Pat's is not a simple picture observation and slapping on some stuff.  Very different pie, than most NY pizzas.

Some day. I found a flight for $350 round trip, seems pretty fair. Until then I doubt what I come up with will be representative of Joe & Pat's, more so just inspired by them.

Ryan,

I wish you the best of luck when attempting to make a Joe & Pat's pizza today.  :) I have no idea if oil is in the dough or not, and don't know if there is EVOO in the sauce either. 

I made a couple of attempts and didn't post them, but just used the regular market dough and the Alta Cucina tomatoes that were drain some and a few herbs.  Nothing about my attempts reminded me of a Joe and Pat's pizza.  I couldn't even get the dough pressed out right.   :-D

Norma

Cheers Norma, I'll probably just put 1 or 2% in for good measure. The only thing my pizza will probably have in common with Joe & Pat's is the cubed mozzarella lol.
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: invertedisdead on April 08, 2017, 08:52:38 PM
My worst attempt yet
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on April 08, 2017, 10:11:55 PM
My worst attempt yet

Ryan,

You pizza looks like a decent attempt at a Joe and Pat's pizza.  What didn't you like about it? 

Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: invertedisdead on April 09, 2017, 02:03:21 AM
Ryan,

You pizza looks like a decent attempt at a Joe and Pat's pizza.  What didn't you like about it? 

Norma

Based on my few attempts already, I knew the sauce consistency was going to be off. I don't understand how Joe & Pat's pizzas look so saucy when finished despite such a thin dough and minimal cheese coverage to insulate the sauce. Im not sure if that is a function of the Fish oven or what. I feel like if the sauce is too thin, it will cook down to nothing in the oven and leave a red stained dough without any sauciness. Some J&P pies look like that, but usually they look nice and saucy.

Here's a J&P pizza for comparison; perfect sauce amount post bake, no dried out spots.

Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: hotsawce on April 09, 2017, 02:12:36 AM
I think the even bake has largely to do with the revolving fish oven. Their pies with fresh mozz bake for 9 to 10 minutes, yet the mozzarella rarely breaks. It's the even heat/bake that's difficult to replicate.

Your TF looks very close though. What did you use?
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: invertedisdead on April 09, 2017, 03:18:56 AM
I think the even bake has largely to do with the revolving fish oven. Their pies with fresh mozz bake for 9 to 10 minutes, yet the mozzarella rarely breaks. It's the even heat/bake that's difficult to replicate.

Your TF looks very close though. What did you use?

It was .07 or .073, pretty well proofed. I pressed it out in two stages, first to around 12 inches, and came back to it 10 minutes later to 17"

Cheese was 5 ounces.

Yeah it's hard getting an even bake in general out of this oven, I wish it had convection as I've had pretty good luck with those. I posted my pre bake pic, what do you think about the sauce? Was mine too thick, not enough? I definitely don't understand how to get sauce like this with a 10 minute bake time unless it's that Fish oven doing its thing.
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on April 09, 2017, 07:27:09 AM
Based on my few attempts already, I knew the sauce consistency was going to be off. I don't understand how Joe & Pat's pizzas look so saucy when finished despite such a thin dough and minimal cheese coverage to insulate the sauce. Im not sure if that is a function of the Fish oven or what. I feel like if the sauce is too thin, it will cook down to nothing in the oven and leave a red stained dough without any sauciness. Some J&P pies look like that, but usually they look nice and saucy.

Here's a J&P pizza for comparison; perfect sauce amount post bake, no dried out spots.

Ryan,

The first time I visited Joe and Pat's there seemed to be a lot of cubed cheese on the pizza according to the photos at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=45716.msg458186#msg458186  I would think that amount of cheese would protect the sauce.  At least it seemed to if the bake in the Fish Oven is about 9-10 mintues like Lou replied at 211 https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=45716.msg476507#msg476507

Second time at Joe and Pat's at Reply 96 https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=45716.msg461982#msg461982  there also seemed to be a fair amount of cheese applied.

Those Fish ovens probably bake a lot different.

Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: invertedisdead on April 09, 2017, 10:18:52 AM
I had 6 oz of cubed mozz weighed out but stopped after 5, maybe I should have used it all. I might try whole peeled tomatoes next time to see how a thinner sauce performs.
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: invertedisdead on April 09, 2017, 12:25:47 PM
Found a sauce shot in a video clip on the Fish oven website. My sauce looks way too smooth, theirs definitely looks to have a milled texture.
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on April 09, 2017, 07:10:00 PM
Found a sauce shot in a video clip on the Fish oven website. My sauce looks way too smooth, theirs definitely looks to have a milled texture.

Ryan,

Maybe the Alta Cucina's aren't milled a lot.  i didn't notice pieces of tomatoes on the slices I had though.

Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: HarryHaller73 on April 09, 2017, 07:54:42 PM
HarryHaller73,

I agree that Joe and Pat's is a very different NY pizza.  Do you think how they let those flour covered somewhat pressed out doughs sit for a little changes how they bake? 

I never tasted a pizza like Joe and Pat's before.

Norma

Could be.  I really think it's a combination of oven, lower temp approx 500F and the dough formulation.  The rotating Fish oven in itself is similar to convection as it is moving through air.  I think dough is compensated with more oil than avg, to get it that thin and have that texture.  Otherwise at 9-10 minutes it would dry and get too crunchy.

Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: HarryHaller73 on April 09, 2017, 07:57:53 PM
Based on my few attempts already, I knew the sauce consistency was going to be off. I don't understand how Joe & Pat's pizzas look so saucy when finished despite such a thin dough and minimal cheese coverage to insulate the sauce. Im not sure if that is a function of the Fish oven or what. I feel like if the sauce is too thin, it will cook down to nothing in the oven and leave a red stained dough without any sauciness. Some J&P pies look like that, but usually they look nice and saucy.


What tomato brand did you use.  I think it comes down to the tomato brand.  Stanislaus tomatoes perform well and stay saucy.  Some tomato brands ie jersey ones evaporate and leave bald spots.
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: invertedisdead on April 09, 2017, 08:27:41 PM
Could be.  I really think it's a combination of oven, lower temp approx 500F and the dough formulation.  The rotating Fish oven in itself is similar to convection as it is moving through air.  I think dough is compensated with more oil than avg, to get it that thin and have that texture.  Otherwise at 9-10 minutes it would dry and get too crunchy.

That's why I didn't like yesterday's attempt, dried out and became too crunchy. I might try like 55% water + 4% oil. If I recall correctly, Peter's formula for Mack's had 5% oil which is also very thin and baked on steel (Rotoflex) at around 500F too.

What tomato brand did you use.  I think it comes down to the tomato brand.  Stanislaus tomatoes perform well and stay saucy.  Some tomato brands ie jersey ones evaporate and leave bald spots.


I just used Muir Glen, I didn't have any Stanislaus products on hand. I might try and order some 28 oz 6 in 1's since I'm really not using much tomato product per pizza. Are you freezing your leftover sauces or tossing them?
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on April 10, 2017, 08:26:47 AM
Could be.  I really think it's a combination of oven, lower temp approx 500F and the dough formulation.  The rotating Fish oven in itself is similar to convection as it is moving through air.  I think dough is compensated with more oil than avg, to get it that thin and have that texture.  Otherwise at 9-10 minutes it would dry and get too crunchy.

Thanks for your thoughts Harry!  I am not sure if the pizzas really take 9-10 minutes to bake.  I did link somewhere else on this thread that someone else said the bake times were between 6-8 minutes.  I sure didn't time the bakes so I have no idea what is right.

Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: HarryHaller73 on April 11, 2017, 09:54:53 AM
That's why I didn't like yesterday's attempt, dried out and became too crunchy. I might try like 55% water + 4% oil. If I recall correctly, Peter's formula for Mack's had 5% oil which is also very thin and baked on steel (Rotoflex) at around 500F too.

I just used Muir Glen, I didn't have any Stanislaus products on hand. I might try and order some 28 oz 6 in 1's since I'm really not using much tomato product per pizza. Are you freezing your leftover sauces or tossing them?

Since I only bake pizzas about once a month, and do 3-4 pies, I'll use whatever I can and then bathe my dogs with the leftover.  I can get a #10 can of 711 for $4-$5. 
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: HarryHaller73 on April 11, 2017, 09:58:11 AM
Thanks for your thoughts Harry!  I am not sure if the pizzas really take 9-10 minutes to bake.  I did link somewhere else on this thread that someone else said the bake times were between 6-8 minutes.  I sure didn't time the bakes so I have no idea what is right.

Norma

You might be right on the timing, especially with the "convection" action of the rotating platforms.   It seems this also helps to bake it through faster without drying out the innards and getting some char on the rim without torching the rest of the pie.
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: invertedisdead on September 16, 2017, 09:38:52 PM
Took another go at a Joe & Pat's style.
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on September 16, 2017, 10:15:25 PM
Ryan,

Looks good!  How did it taste?

Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: invertedisdead on September 16, 2017, 11:19:23 PM
Ryan,

Looks good!  How did it taste?

Norma

My tasters loved this one. I should make this style more often, but I forget about it. I used a cheese slicer to cut even slabs off the mozzarella loaf and then cubed them. I think this is my best Joe & Pat's melt yet. Went fairly heavy on the sauce which I think was needed to prevent it all from evaporating into nothing during the bake. I hate when there's no sauce on a pie and it's just a red stain. Sauce was generic undrained 28 oz can of whole peeled "San Marzano" with basil + 2 oz tomato paste. Salt, sugar, EVOO, little black pepper, a few fresh basil leaves, and a clove of garlic. Romano and oregano when dressing the pie. Not sure if Joe & Pat's actually uses garlic or oregano in their sauce, but the other stuff seems plausible. I might leave those two ingredients out next time to see how it tastes with more of a intense tomato flavor.

Baked for 8 minutes @ 550 on the highest rack.
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on September 17, 2017, 07:43:49 AM
My tasters loved this one. I should make this style more often, but I forget about it. I used a cheese slicer to cut even slabs off the mozzarella loaf and then cubed them. I think this is my best Joe & Pat's melt yet. Went fairly heavy on the sauce which I think was needed to prevent it all from evaporating into nothing during the bake. I hate when there's no sauce on a pie and it's just a red stain. Sauce was generic undrained 28 oz can of whole peeled "San Marzano" with basil + 2 oz tomato paste. Salt, sugar, EVOO, little black pepper, a few fresh basil leaves, and a clove of garlic. Romano and oregano when dressing the pie. Not sure if Joe & Pat's actually uses garlic or oregano in their sauce, but the other stuff seems plausible. I might leave those two ingredients out next time to see how it tastes with more of a intense tomato flavor.

Baked for 8 minutes @ 550 on the highest rack.

Ryan,

Glad to hear your tasters loved your Joe & Pat's pizza.  :pizza: Thanks for telling what you used to sliced your mozzarella loaf and what you did with you sauce.  I can't even remember exactly what a Joe and Pat's pizza tastes like anymore, but really did like it.

Did you have any problems getting the skin even and so thin?

Good luck when you make your next Joe and Pat's pizza. 

Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: invertedisdead on September 17, 2017, 06:49:36 PM
Ryan,

Glad to hear your tasters loved your Joe & Pat's pizza.  :pizza: Thanks for telling what you used to sliced your mozzarella loaf and what you did with you sauce.  I can't even remember exactly what a Joe and Pat's pizza tastes like anymore, but really did like it.

Did you have any problems getting the skin even and so thin?

Good luck when you make your next Joe and Pat's pizza. 

Norma

Thanks Norma!  :)
I pressed it out to about 12 inches, then let it sit and came back to it. I was thinking of your video with the partially opened skins. Seemed to make it easier to open. I used a 55% hydration.

I just watched this video, and it shows a good angle of a pie being sauced and topped

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZBsc-NReFU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZBsc-NReFU)

Sauce looks like whole peeled (can see seeds, I thought it was milled from other pictures I had seen, but they must just hit it with a stick blender) + a good amount of oil (olive I assume? Pie looks very glossy, and this would add richness to make up for the lack of cheese; plus, the family is from Naples.
And I'd love to hear other opinions on this but the basil looks dark and there's not much of it, so I'd assume this is the same basil used during the canning and not actually added in the shop?
Some photos show dark specs which I assumed were black pepper or crushed red pepper, but it might just be smaller pieces of basil turned even darker after the bake.
Romano looks to be not in the sauce, but added while putting on the cheese. Mozz is not perfectly cut, sizes are different which gives you the unique melt.



Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on September 18, 2017, 08:27:26 AM
Thanks Norma!  :)
I pressed it out to about 12 inches, then let it sit and came back to it. I was thinking of your video with the partially opened skins. Seemed to make it easier to open. I used a 55% hydration.

I just watched this video, and it shows a good angle of a pie being sauced and topped

Sauce looks like whole peeled (can see seeds, I thought it was milled from other pictures I had seen, but they must just hit it with a stick blender) + a good amount of oil (olive I assume? Pie looks very glossy, and this would add richness to make up for the lack of cheese; plus, the family is from Naples.
And I'd love to hear other opinions on this but the basil looks dark and there's not much of it, so I'd assume this is the same basil used during the canning and not actually added in the shop?
Some photos show dark specs which I assumed were black pepper or crushed red pepper, but it might just be smaller pieces of basil turned even darker after the bake.
Romano looks to be not in the sauce, but added while putting on the cheese. Mozz is not perfectly cut, sizes are different which gives you the unique melt.

Ryan,

Thanks for telling us what you did to open the skin.  That is a great video you referenced!  Not sure of the basil, but would think from it being darker it would be from a canned product.  I didn't see or taste any pepper in the sauce, but could be wrong about that. 

Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: djdvda on October 23, 2017, 01:15:10 PM
Hi all.

Long time lurker, first time poster.

I lived in SI for most of my life, and think that I can offer a bit of insight:

Joe & Pat's uses a Pillsbury flour. I have seen it wheeled in on several occasions.

They are currently in the process of opening another location on 1st Avenue in Manhattan. Open house for employment applications was held 2 weeks ago, so they will likely be open in the very near future.


Cheers!



Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on October 23, 2017, 05:41:15 PM
Hi all.

Long time lurker, first time poster.

I lived in SI for most of my life, and think that I can offer a bit of insight:

Joe & Pat's uses a Pillsbury flour. I have seen it wheeled in on several occasions.

They are currently in the process of opening another location on 1st Avenue in Manhattan. Open house for employment applications was held 2 weeks ago, so they will likely be open in the very near future.


Cheers!

djdvda,

Thanks for the tip about the Pillsbury flour.  Did you note which Pillsbury flour it is?

Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: johnnytuinals on October 30, 2017, 12:00:05 AM
I am sure most have tried to make a Joe and Pats pizza.(if yea from the area}
Yes many look like a Joe and Pats pizza(but who knows what it taste like?}
I remember in the 70s they used blocks of PollyO cheese.
I have narrowed it down to their Cheese and Dough but to make it taste like the real deal is the Sauce.
That I have not been able to do.
So I have given up on Blocks of Cheese and gone back to shredded cheese and
have given up as of now to make  a Joe and Pats pizza but maybe I will try again...................JT
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on November 06, 2017, 06:31:08 AM


Rubirosa is run by the son of Joe and Pat's.  That dough is sure thin in the first part of the video when it is pressed out.

https://www.rubirosanyc.com/#about 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zpvlA04Z3w&t=316s

Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: hotsawce on November 06, 2017, 04:08:43 PM
Norma,

Great video (I also love this guy's video on Biang Biang noodles, another NYC institution.)

I think a common misconception about Rubirosa is that it is thin. It's slightly thinner in the center than say, a Joe's pie, but It's the even stretch from edge to edge that I think throws people off.

Judging by the video and the dough ball I got from them, hydration is no more than 60% and likely a same day dough - it's very well proofed, but the dough isn't sticky. And judging by how it takes them a while to stretch it out, leads me to believe it's fresh as well.

Anyone have an estimated thickness factor or doughball weight?


Rubirosa is run by the son of Joe and Pat's.  That dough is sure thin in the first part of the video when it is pressed out.

https://www.rubirosanyc.com/#about 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zpvlA04Z3w&t=316s

Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: HansB on November 06, 2017, 04:37:35 PM
Norma,

Great video (I also love this guy's video on Biang Biang noodles, another NYC institution.)



I had my Ns1 today!
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on November 06, 2017, 05:47:02 PM
Norma,

Great video (I also love this guy's video on Biang Biang noodles, another NYC institution.)

I think a common misconception about Rubirosa is that it is thin. It's slightly thinner in the center than say, a Joe's pie, but It's the even stretch from edge to edge that I think throws people off.

Judging by the video and the dough ball I got from them, hydration is no more than 60% and likely a same day dough - it's very well proofed, but the dough isn't sticky. And judging by how it takes them a while to stretch it out, leads me to believe it's fresh as well.

Anyone have an estimated thickness factor or doughball weight?

Lou,

Never heard of Biang Biang noodles but will watch his video about them.

I thought the pie and slices I had at Joe and Pat's was very thin.  Might not be right about that though.  What was the weight of the dough ball you got from Joe and Pat's? 

Norma

Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: jkb on November 06, 2017, 06:09:06 PM
I also love this guy's video on Biang Biang noodles, another NYC institution.


Would they traditionally be made with kansui?
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: HarryHaller73 on November 07, 2017, 11:04:41 AM
Lou,

Never heard of Biang Biang noodles but will watch his video about them.

I thought the pie and slices I had at Joe and Pat's was very thin.  Might not be right about that though.  What was the weight of the dough ball you got from Joe and Pat's? 

Norma

Definitely thinner than a standard NY slice.  But looks can be deceiving, Joe and Pat's is still a foldable slice and still has bite and nothing like Chicago thin or NJ bar pies.  Also, all that pounding will compact the crumb but it's texture has some chew.  One can make 2 pies look equally thin, but depending on fermentation, flour, hydration, opening method, will lead to very different experience.

I use a TF of 0.075 for Joe and Pat's style.  0.092 for standard NY slice.  May seem alot, but end product has alot to do with the process.

 
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on November 07, 2017, 08:14:30 PM
Definitely thinner than a standard NY slice.  But looks can be deceiving, Joe and Pat's is still a foldable slice and still has bite and nothing like Chicago thin or NJ bar pies.  Also, all that pounding will compact the crumb but it's texture has some chew.  One can make 2 pies look equally thin, but depending on fermentation, flour, hydration, opening method, will lead to very different experience.

I use a TF of 0.075 for Joe and Pat's style.  0.092 for standard NY slice.  May seem alot, but end product has alot to do with the process.

Thanks Harry!

Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: HarryHaller73 on November 07, 2017, 08:29:15 PM
Thanks Harry!

Norma

NP Norma, I hope you are well. 
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: hotsawce on November 08, 2017, 11:45:32 AM
I think I recall calculating a TF of 0.065 for the Rubirosa dough ball I grabbed a while ago. Maybe give that a try? My gut tells me it might top out around 0.07. 0.075 seems thick - the pies I've made at that thickness definitely seemed thicker than joe and pats

Definitely thinner than a standard NY slice.  But looks can be deceiving, Joe and Pat's is still a foldable slice and still has bite and nothing like Chicago thin or NJ bar pies.  Also, all that pounding will compact the crumb but it's texture has some chew.  One can make 2 pies look equally thin, but depending on fermentation, flour, hydration, opening method, will lead to very different experience.

I use a TF of 0.075 for Joe and Pat's style.  0.092 for standard NY slice.  May seem alot, but end product has alot to do with the process.
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on November 08, 2017, 06:02:16 PM
I think I recall calculating a TF of 0.065 for the Rubirosa dough ball I grabbed a while ago. Maybe give that a try? My gut tells me it might top out around 0.07. 0.075 seems thick - the pies I've made at that thickness definitely seemed thicker than joe and pats

Lou,

Thanks for telling us what you think you calculated Rubirosa dough ball at in TF.  Yes, maybe give that a try.

Norma
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: Andrew Bellucci on April 06, 2018, 05:55:25 PM
I'm certain they are two doughs flattened onto each other for their round pies.

Then you are certainly 100% wrong.
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: HarryHaller73 on April 06, 2018, 09:39:24 PM
Then you are certainly 100% wrong.


Yup, I was wrong, been there since this thread died a year ago with sharper eyes.  They proof the shells on the counter.
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: johnnytuinals on April 12, 2020, 09:25:40 PM
I know Joe and Pats use Grande Cheese (WM}
Can care less about the dough cause I can get my dough pretty thin.
Only missing piece is the SAUCE,wish there were someone that might have worked there that can post
what kind of Sauce they use and hows its made...…………..JT
Title: Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
Post by: norma427 on April 13, 2020, 03:02:28 AM
I know Joe and Pats use Grande Cheese (WM}
Can care less about the dough cause I can get my dough pretty thin.
Only missing piece is the SAUCE,wish there were someone that might have worked there that can post
what kind of Sauce they use and hows its made...…………..JT

JT,

I sure don't know what is in Joe and Pat's sauce, but if interested showed some photos of their pizza and an extra container of sauce they gave me starting at Reply 96 https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=45716.msg461982#msg461982

Some more photos of the oven they use at Joe and Pat's. https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=45716.msg462046#msg462046  Think that oven, along with other things is what makes their pizza different.  Pizza's baked on the shelves in the rotating oven.

More photos of their sauce at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=45716.msg462104#msg462104   

Norma