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Offline norma427

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Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
« on: November 26, 2016, 09:06:13 PM »

My oldest daughter and I took a trip to Staten Island today to visit my daughter and family.  I asked my oldest daughter if we could stop at Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, after we left my youngest daughters, because I have wanted to try their pizzas for awhile.  We also stopped at the La Bella Marketplace in Staten Island and got some goodies there. 

I was amazed at how good Joe and Pat's slices were.  For my tastes I think that is the perfect pizza.  The reason I say that is because it is almost sauced out to the rim.  The crust is almost like a cracker style, but yet really isn't.  The mozzarella was delicious and the sweet red sauce was great.  The cupping pepperoni really was delicious, and might have been the best cupping pepperoni I have ever tasted.  The bottom crusts were just the right amount of crispness.  The slices were very thin and so easy to eat.  I only got two slices because we already ate at my daughter's not to long before we left.  My daughter didn't try any slices.

I watched as the pie men pounded on the dough before opening it.  The one pie man said I could take a video of him tossing and twirling a dough.  I wasn't ready for that and got confused in changing my camera from photos to a video.  That is why there are going to be two videos. 

The mozzarella was put on the pie in cubes.  The oven that was used to baked the pizzas was a Fish oven.  It sure baked those pizzas well.  I never watched how a Fish oven operated before and that sure was exciting to see. I watched as the pie men sliced different pizzas and the crunch could be heard each time they were cut the whole way across the pizzas. 

These are videos found on Youtube of Joe & Pat's Pizzeria.




Offline norma427

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Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2016, 09:12:56 PM »
I sure wish I could make the same pizzas at market.  8)  On the first video the pie man had already tossed and twirled the dough, but then I couldn't see if I was taking a video or a photo.  The man was very patient with me and waited until I got the camera to take a video.  After he was finished he threw that dough into the trash.  I wish I could have taken that dough home.

 

 

Norma

Offline mitchjg

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Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2016, 09:33:59 PM »
Norma: Their pizza takes nothing away from yours.  They are just different.

I must say, though, that their pizza really, really looks good....... :drool:  Wow, so thin!
Mitch

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Offline norma427

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Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2016, 09:56:00 PM »
Norma: Their pizza takes nothing away from yours.  They are just different.

I must say, though, that their pizza really, really looks good....... :drool:  Wow, so thin!

Mitch,

Thanks for your kind comment! 

I must say Joe & Pat's pizza blows mine away.  :-D Yes, it was really thin. 

Norma

Offline hotsawce

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Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2016, 01:40:41 AM »
Norma,

So excited you finally had the chance to try Joe & Pats. It is one of my favorites (along with Rubirosa) and I have a thread dedicated to their pies in NY style. Many people say NY style is the evolution of Neapolitan; the moment I tried these pies I thought they were the evolution of Roman style brought to the states. Thin, crispy, tender, sauced to the edge...one of my all time favorites. I have a lot of details and research from my visits at Rubirosa and how long they bake for in the Fish ovens. I'm trying to modify these pies for wood fired as I think the fish bakes them evenly but dries them out a bit, but boy are these amazing pizzas. The mozzarella (low moisture on the classic pies) are cubed rather than diced. Sauce in unadulterated and it's just so good for how simple the pies are. The vodka pie at Rubi is just as good but uses fresh mozzarella.

I have my own recipe for this style of pizza that's come pretty close but it's really the unsung hero of NY style. It's so different from anything else out there and I think it's a crowd pleaser. It's somewhere between NY style and coal oven and truly a unique style of pizza that deserves more attention!

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Offline norma427

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Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2016, 08:43:06 AM »
Norma,

So excited you finally had the chance to try Joe & Pats. It is one of my favorites (along with Rubirosa) and I have a thread dedicated to their pies in NY style. Many people say NY style is the evolution of Neapolitan; the moment I tried these pies I thought they were the evolution of Roman style brought to the states. Thin, crispy, tender, sauced to the edge...one of my all time favorites. I have a lot of details and research from my visits at Rubirosa and how long they bake for in the Fish ovens. I'm trying to modify these pies for wood fired as I think the fish bakes them evenly but dries them out a bit, but boy are these amazing pizzas. The mozzarella (low moisture on the classic pies) are cubed rather than diced. Sauce in unadulterated and it's just so good for how simple the pies are. The vodka pie at Rubi is just as good but uses fresh mozzarella.

I have my own recipe for this style of pizza that's come pretty close but it's really the unsung hero of NY style. It's so different from anything else out there and I think it's a crowd pleaser. It's somewhere between NY style and coal oven and truly a unique style of pizza that deserves more attention!

Lou,

Glad you chimed in.  I was following your thread at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=45452.msg455085#msg455085  but really what stood out to me was that you were trying out Roman American pies in a wood-fire oven.  I didn't play any attention to your mentions of Joe and Pat's, or Rubirosa because I never was at either of those pizzerias. 

I had wanted to taste Joe & Pat's for a long while.  Adam Kuban told me to try them someday.  It has been in my mind since awhile ago to try them.  When my oldest daughter said she was going to visit my daughter I looked how far Joe & Pat's was from where my youngest daughter lives.  Google Maps said it was only 11 minutes away from where she lived by car. 

What really excited me, among many things, was how crispy the bottom crust stayed while eating the two slices.  Some of the other things were how thin the slices were and how evenly balanced the taste was across the 2 slices.  The pepperoni was to die for too.   :drool:

Rubirosa

Doughs low gluten levels and a secret ingredient, and if the sideshow is clicked through many photos and comments are mentioned.

http://blog.openingceremony.com/entry.asp?pid=5292 

I also looked up what I could find out about Rubirosa.

I wonder if somehow I could bake a pizza like Joe & Pat's in the deck oven at market.  The stretching the skin so evenly to the edges would really be hard for me. 

I agree about how amazing the pizzas are.  ;D Thanks for saying the mozzarella is low moisture.  I saw the tub of cubed mozzarella.  I wonder what brand of low moisture mozzarella they are using. 

Are you going to share your recipe on your thread?  I asked the man stretching the dough how many minutes it took to bake the pizzas at Joe & Pat's.  He said about 8 minutes.  Is that something you know, or is it a shorter bake time?

Norma

Offline invertedisdead

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Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2016, 09:07:47 AM »
Lou,

Glad you chimed in.  I was following your thread at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=45452.msg455085#msg455085  but really what stood out to me was that you were trying out Roman American pies in a wood-fire oven.  I didn't play any attention to your mentions of Joe and Pat's, or Rubirosa because I never was at either of those pizzerias. 

I had wanted to taste Joe & Pat's for a long while.  Adam Kuban told me to try them someday.  It has been in my mind since awhile ago to try them.  When my oldest daughter said she was going to visit my daughter I looked how far Joe & Pat's was from where my youngest daughter lives.  Google Maps said it was only 11 minutes away from where she lived by car. 

What really excited me, among many things, was how crispy the bottom crust stayed while eating the two slices.  Some of the other things were how thin the slices were and how evenly balanced the taste was across the 2 slices.  The pepperoni was to die for too.   :drool:

Rubirosa

Doughs low gluten levels and a secret ingredient, and if the sideshow is clicked through many photos and comments are mentioned.

http://blog.openingceremony.com/entry.asp?pid=5292 

I also looked up what I could find out about Rubirosa.

I wonder if somehow I could bake a pizza like Joe & Pat's in the deck oven at market.  The stretching the skin so evenly to the edges would really be hard for me. 

I agree about how amazing the pizzas are.  ;D Thanks for saying the mozzarella is low moisture.  I saw the tub of cubed mozzarella.  I wonder what brand of low moisture mozzarella they are using. 

Are you going to share your recipe on your thread?  I asked the man stretching the dough how many minutes it took to bake the pizzas at Joe & Pat's.  He said about 8 minutes.  Is that something you know, or is it a shorter bake time?

Norma

Norma,

You could try Tom Lehmann's opening technique of rolling the dough out half way and finish hand stretching. Judging by the amount of effort the pie men put into opening the dough, it reminds me of a recent 52% hydration dough I did. Those lower hydration doughs open pretty evenly.

Ryan
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Offline norma427

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Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2016, 09:20:11 AM »
Norma,

You could try Tom Lehmann's opening technique of rolling the dough out half way and finish hand stretching. Judging by the amount of effort the pie men put into opening the dough, it reminds me of a recent 52% hydration dough I did. Those lower hydration doughs open pretty evenly.

Ryan

Ryan,

I had thought about rolling out the dough half way and then trying to hand stretch.  How evenly their dough is stretched to the edges would be tough for me.  Did your 52% hydration dough did it contain a fair amout of oil?  I saw somehwere that they use a lower protein flour.  To be able to toss the dough like that man did yesterday there would need to be some strength in that dough, or it might have been he was so skilled in tossing and twirling that made that skin so evenly thin.

Norma

HarryHaller73

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Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2016, 09:28:01 AM »

Many people say NY style is the evolution of Neapolitan; the moment I tried these pies I thought they were the evolution of Roman style brought to the states. Thin, crispy, tender, sauced to the edge..

There were several waves of Italian immigrants to the states from the early 20th century to after WW2.  It should be known however that Italy was and still is a multicultural nation made up of very distinct regions.  I would also note that tavern style pizzerias such as Joe and Pats, Lee's, and Denino's along with those in central Jersey like DeLorenzo's and up north in New Haven, CT at Pepe's were started by immigrants from Naples and differs from the lineage of the NY deck oven style pizzas post WW2 which were primarily Sicilian immigrants.  Gary Bimonte's grandfather of Pepe's was from Naples, as is Rick DeLorenzo's family and so are Joe and Gennaro Pappalardo of Joe and Pat's. 

Having visited both Rome and Naples many times since the 80's, the thin round Roman pie of today is actually a derivative of the original Neapolitan style pizza that was served for over a hundred years.  There was no pizza scene in Rome until the 80's when the tourist industry needed to create linkage to where pizza would eventually become a universal food in America.  Additionally, today's "Neapolitan" style pizza is actually a wholly new creation of it's own having been born out of the tourist renaissance of Italy post 1980's.  This coincided with the rustic food trends, and when Italian breads such as Ciabatta was invented to compete with the famed history of the French baguette within tourism.  Prior to that, pizzas in Naples bore no resemblance to what you see today and were very  similar to today's thin crispy "tomato pies" in CT and NJ or tavern style pies in SI.   There are alot of historical inaccuracies which play into the food scene.  One of the biggest farces is what they serve at places like Lombardi's as representative of the first true Neapolitan-American pizza in NY.  I would bet that the original Lombardi's were similar to the Staten Island style and Jersey tomato pies..  The relaunch of Lombardi's was a hybrid concoction made for tourists during the Giuiliani era. 
« Last Edit: November 27, 2016, 11:37:42 AM by HarryHaller73 »

Offline norma427

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Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2016, 09:41:18 AM »
There were several waves of Italian immigrants to the states from the early 20th century to after WW2.  It should be known however that Italy was and still is a multicultural nation made up of very distinct regions.  I would also note that tavern style pizzerias such as Joe and Pats, Lee's, and Denino's along with those in central Jersey like DeLorenzo's and up north in New Haven, CT at Pepe's were started by immigrants from Naples and differs from the lineage of the NY deck oven style pizzas post WW2 which were primarily Sicilian immigrants.  Gary Bimonte's grandfather of Pepe's was from Naples, as is Rick DeLorenzo's family and so are Joe and Gennaro Pappalardo of Joe and Pat's. 

Having visited both Rome and Naples many times since the 80's, the thin round Roman pie of today is actually a derivative of the original Neapolitan style pizza that was served over a hundred years ago.  There was no pizza scene in Rome until the 80's when the tourist industry needed to create linkage to where pizza would eventually become a universal food in America.  Additionally, today's "Neapolitan" style pizza is actually a wholly new creation on it's own having been born out of the tourist renaissance of Italy post 1980's.  This coincided with the rustic food trends, and when Italian breads such as Ciabatta was invented to compete with the famed history of the French baguette within tourism.  Prior to that, pizzas in Naples bore no resemblance to what you see today and were very  similar to today's thin crispy "tomato pies" or tavern style pies in SI.   There are alot of historical inaccuracies which play into the food scene.  One of the biggest farces is what they serve at places like Lombardi's as representative of the first true Neapolitan-American pizza in NY.  I would bet that the original Lombardi's were similar to the Staten Island style and Jersey tomato pies.  The relaunch of Lombardi's was a hybrid concoction.

Thanks for all of your thoughts HarryHaller73,

I find them all interesting.  8)

Norma

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Offline jkb

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Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2016, 10:39:33 AM »
I'd love to see photos of pizza from 100 years ago but I can't find any.  It's almost like they didn't have food bloggers back then.
John

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Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2016, 11:09:49 AM »
I'd love to see photos of pizza from 100 years ago but I can't find any.  It's almost like they didn't have food bloggers back then.

The longest continuously running family owned pizzeria is Papa's Tomato pies in Trenton, NJ.  According to long time customers and owner, the recipe has been the same since opening in 1912.  They share similar aesthetic to pizza in Staten Island, same lineage and vein, characterized by very thin almost cracker crust but not, a foldable inner crumb, crispy, and somewhat charred rim.  This pizza tradition has persisted over the decades hidden in enclaves eaten by locals only until the past decade when they were discovered by everyone else.  Staten Island is inaccessible from the city besides the ferry, and tourists didn't care about Jersey, esp Trenton of all places.   Denino's and Joe and Pat's (aka Rubirosa) have recently opened their 2nd shops downtown Manhattan so their popularity is now trending as wood fire pizza drops off. 

I found some pics online in order of Papa's Tomato pie, Denino's and Lee Tavern in Staten Island, DeLorenzo's in Robbinsville, NJ and Frank Pepe's in New Haven, CT.  They all share similar aesthetic, I would imagine this was what pizza looked like 80-100 years ago in NYC/NJ and representative of true Neapolitan style pizza and that this style evolved into the deck oven era NY pizza style after the 1950's. 
   
« Last Edit: November 27, 2016, 11:40:24 AM by HarryHaller73 »

Offline invertedisdead

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Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2016, 02:20:41 PM »
Ryan,

I had thought about rolling out the dough half way and then trying to hand stretch.  How evenly their dough is stretched to the edges would be tough for me.  Did your 52% hydration dough did it contain a fair amout of oil?  I saw somehwere that they use a lower protein flour.  To be able to toss the dough like that man did yesterday there would need to be some strength in that dough, or it might have been he was so skilled in tossing and twirling that made that skin so evenly thin.

Norma

3% oil - I used a tip from John Fazzari using warmer water to help influence hydration.
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2016, 03:07:04 PM »
Norma and Ryan,

Tom Lehmann recommends that one roll out the dough to about 2/3-3/4 of the full diameter of the intended size pizza. That might make it easier to finish than going half way if you decide to use that approach.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2016, 07:38:23 PM »
The longest continuously running family owned pizzeria is Papa's Tomato pies in Trenton, NJ.  According to long time customers and owner, the recipe has been the same since opening in 1912.  They share similar aesthetic to pizza in Staten Island, same lineage and vein, characterized by very thin almost cracker crust but not, a foldable inner crumb, crispy, and somewhat charred rim.  This pizza tradition has persisted over the decades hidden in enclaves eaten by locals only until the past decade when they were discovered by everyone else.  Staten Island is inaccessible from the city besides the ferry, and tourists didn't care about Jersey, esp Trenton of all places.   Denino's and Joe and Pat's (aka Rubirosa) have recently opened their 2nd shops downtown Manhattan so their popularity is now trending as wood fire pizza drops off. 

I found some pics online in order of Papa's Tomato pie, Denino's and Lee Tavern in Staten Island, DeLorenzo's in Robbinsville, NJ and Frank Pepe's in New Haven, CT.  They all share similar aesthetic, I would imagine this was what pizza looked like 80-100 years ago in NYC/NJ and representative of true Neapolitan style pizza and that this style evolved into the deck oven era NY pizza style after the 1950's. 
   

HarryHaller73,

I agree that Papa's, De Lorenzo's, Denino's, Lee Tavern, and Joe & Pat's all have something in common with their pizzas.  I did pizza reviews with photos of all of them. 

I wonder why the trend is starting to go up some in NYC for pizzas like those that have been mostly hidden before.

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Offline norma427

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Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2016, 07:40:03 PM »
3% oil - I used a tip from John Fazzari using warmer water to help influence hydration.

Ryan,

Thanks for sharing the tip you got from John Fazzari. 

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
« Reply #16 on: November 27, 2016, 07:41:48 PM »
Norma and Ryan,

Tom Lehmann recommends that one roll out the dough to about 2/3-3/4 of the full diameter of the intended size pizza. That might make it easier to finish than going half way if you decide to use that approach.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for telling us what Tom Lehmann recommends.  What hydration would you guess Joe & Pat's dough is?

Norma

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
« Reply #17 on: November 27, 2016, 09:24:35 PM »
Peter,

What hydration would you guess Joe & Pat's dough is?

Norma
Norma,

Based on what I have seen and read from what you posted and looking at Yelp photos taken at Joe & Pat's, I would guess that the hydration is in the mid-50s or maybe a bit higher. And I tend to agree with Ryan that there may be some oil in the dough. I don't think you want too high a hydration or too much oil since that would produce more volume in the dough and more oven spring than you might want in a thin, almost cracker-like crust. For thickness factor, I am guessing around 0.060-0.065. From the videos, it looks like it takes quite a while to open up the doughs and form into skins so that might also suggest a hydration on the low side. Also, if I heard the comments correctly in one of the videos, one of the employees said that it takes about six months to become proficient in opening up dough balls. So, opening up a dough ball somewhat on the small side to get the skin uniformly thin across the entire size of the pizza takes some practice.

I would also imagine that the Fish reel oven plays a special role in the final results and has to marry well with the dough formulation used. The last time I saw a revolving oven was at Papa Gino's in the northeast. The pizzas at the PG store I visited were baked in a Baxter “ferris wheel” oven. I believe that Baxter refers to such ovens as a “revolving tray ovens”. The ferris wheel ovens have traditionally been popular choices for baking Chicago-style pizzas. The one used at the PG store I visited used a metal baking surface. But one of the workers I spoke with said that he thought that a deck oven with a stone surface was a better choice based on his personal experience (my recollection is that he had worked with deck ovens before). Do you know what kind of baking surface Joe's & Pat's uses? And did you get any sense of the volume of pizzas baked at one time in the oven? And also how long it takes to bake a given pizza?

Also, can you tell us what size the pizzas are at Joe & Pat's, and what a pie typically costs?

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
« Reply #18 on: November 27, 2016, 10:25:32 PM »
Norma,

Based on what I have seen and read from what you posted and looking at Yelp photos taken at Joe & Pat's, I would guess that the hydration is in the mid-50s or maybe a bit higher. And I tend to agree with Ryan that there may be some oil in the dough. I don't think you want too high a hydration or too much oil since that would produce more volume in the dough and more oven spring than you might want in a thin, almost cracker-like crust. For thickness factor, I am guessing around 0.060-0.065. From the videos, it looks like it takes quite a while to open up the doughs and form into skins so that might also suggest a hydration on the low side. Also, if I heard the comments correctly in one of the videos, one of the employees said that it takes about six months to become proficient in opening up dough balls. So, opening up a dough ball somewhat on the small side to get the skin uniformly thin across the entire size of the pizza takes some practice.

I would also imagine that the Fish reel oven plays a special role in the final results and has to marry well with the dough formulation used. The last time I saw a revolving oven was at Papa Gino's in the northeast. The pizzas at the PG store I visited were baked in a Baxter “ferris wheel” oven. I believe that Baxter refers to such ovens as a “revolving tray ovens”. The ferris wheel ovens have traditionally been popular choices for baking Chicago-style pizzas. The one used at the PG store I visited used a metal baking surface. But one of the workers I spoke with said that he thought that a deck oven with a stone surface was a better choice based on his personal experience (my recollection is that he had worked with deck ovens before). Do you know what kind of baking surface Joe's & Pat's uses? And did you get any sense of the volume of pizzas baked at one time in the oven? And also how long it takes to bake a given pizza?

Also, can you tell us what size the pizzas are at Joe & Pat's, and what a pie typically costs?

Peter

Peter,

The pizza sizes at Joe and Pats are 14” and 16”, and the costs are at the link below.  The cheese slice I had was $2.50.  I also posted a photo of the menu board where the pie men were pounding on the dough.  http://whereyoueat.com/Joe-and-Pats--35.html 

Thanks for your guess on what hydration to try and about tending to agree with Ryan that there may be some oil in the dough.  You guess at the TF is probably good. 

In this Eater article it says that the pizza oven is enormous, but I only saw the front of the Fish oven.  As far as I could tell when the man opened the oven door for me to see, the decks looked like they were steel.  It can be seen in the one photo how the cubed cheese is applied and how thin their sauce looks.  I guess they all marry together to make a great pizza.

http://ny.eater.com/2012/1/6/6624965/fierce-loyalty-fantastic-pies-at-joe-and-pats-pizzeria 


To get another idea of what that Fish oven looked like in the slideshow.

http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2010/03/staten-island-pier-76-pizza-like-joe-and-pats-st-george-siny-nyc-review-slideshow.html   

Jerry said the Fish oven at Pier 76 was almost identical to the one at Joe and Pat's in Staten Island.  In this article it says that Grande cheese is used, but it sure didn't taste like Grande cheese to me.

http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2010/03/staten-island-pier-76-pizza-like-joe-and-pats-st-george-siny-nyc-review.html   

More info on the sauce in this article.

http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2004/11/joe_pats.html

These are the pizzerias where Giuseppe Papparlardo mastered his craft.

http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2007/11/joe-and-pats-pizza-staten-island-new-york-castleton-corners-four-corners.html 

Any other thoughts or suggestions let me know.

Norma

HarryHaller73

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Re: Joe & Pat's Pizzeria, Staten Island
« Reply #19 on: November 27, 2016, 10:29:21 PM »
HarryHaller73,

I agree that Papa's, De Lorenzo's, Denino's, Lee Tavern, and Joe & Pat's all have something in common with their pizzas.  I did pizza reviews with photos of all of them. 

I wonder why the trend is starting to go up some in NYC for pizzas like those that have been mostly hidden before.

Because people are fickle and want new experiences.  I like that Staten Island pies are in cos they're classic NY unlike other fads that have come about.  It's time for New York to re-establish what's theirs not pretending to be a cupcake, curd or  detroit pie seller.

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