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Author Topic: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr  (Read 92650 times)

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Offline hammettjr

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Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
« Reply #460 on: November 24, 2018, 09:07:04 PM »
Only a few bakes ago I said that my pizza was exactly to my taste. Yet today I decided to change a bunch of things. I'm still not sure exactly what to make of this pie, but it definitely wasn't as good as usual.

For easier reference, my last pie is here:
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=51924.msg551287#msg551287

Changes:


1) Reduced TF to 0.09125 - I liked the thinness

2) 40% of my sauce was diluted paste - it was a nice taste, but didn't seem quite right. It really reminded me of my pan pizzas where I use paste. Maybe if I try a smaller amount of paste it will give me the extra oomph without taking over.

3) Tried grocery store oregano for the first time in a very long time. I used a good amount of it, but it was still too far in the background for me. Will likely go back to my usual Sicilian oregano next week.

4) Took my dough out 20 minutes earlier (full 3 hours before opening the dough) - still had bubbles  >:(

5) The biggie, as described a couple posts above, I added a second stone into the oven as a "ceiling". I pre-heated at 470, which resulted in a lower stone temp of 470-480 and upper stone temp of 475-485. Then as usual turned the oven up to 500 at launch.

When I moved the pie from the screen directly to the stone 7 minutes into the bake, I could see the cheese was melting very slowly, and was super white. Moving to the stone started a rapid sauce boil, but only in a couple spots near the rim. The rest of the pie stayed white, so I gave it more time, ending up with a 10 minute bake.

The result was still a white melt. I didn't like the look of it. And it had some texture issues. Though there were some interesting takeaways:
- It seemed like I had a huge amount of cheese, despite using 12.5 ounces like last bake (and down from 13.5 a from a few bakes ago).
- Flavor wise it was lacking the orange sauce meld, which was disappointing. But it did have a bit of milky cheese flavor
- It did have some resemblance to pizzeria melts I've experienced before, albeit not my preferred ones.
So the question is whether I go back to one stone, or try again with either a hotter upper stone, or moving the upper stone closer to the lower stone, or removing the screen earlier, or using less cheese. I'm leaning towards scrapping the second stone as I was very happy with my bakes before started messing with it.

Edit: its entirely possible the my ratios aren't right yet since I moved to 16" pies. I may need to reduce the mozz.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2018, 09:13:59 PM by hammettjr »
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Offline Josh123

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Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
« Reply #461 on: November 24, 2018, 10:17:29 PM »
Tbh, both the top and bottom could have used an extra minute in the oven. Also 470 seems a bit low for the classic NY melt. Bumping it to 500 at launch doesn't mean you'll even reach that temp. Certainly the stone won't. Plus you're losing heat on the launch. Try preheating at 500 and then setting to 525. Lately ive been baking at 525 and I feel my pizzas look better than ever. Sometimes 550 cooks the bottom too quick and 500 seems to take too long, though since I sell pizza to the public I have to keep an eye on speed.

You could take that bottom darker and still get your chew by letting the pizza sit for an extra 2 to 3 mins before eating.

Also another trick with these type of screens is you can let the top cook to about 95% of where you want it before putting it on the stone. These Queens screens are specifically designed so the top and bottom cook evenly. A lot of places dont even put them on the brick. You dont need to unless you're busy and the stones are getting cold.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2018, 10:29:31 PM by Josh123 »

Offline Jackitup

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Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
« Reply #462 on: November 24, 2018, 10:38:32 PM »
The bottom color is about right where my wife likes it but I agree, the edge is a bit too blond. I say go full out at 550° How long was your pre-heat? With my huge Fibrament I go 1 hour, and I assume you're using an IR gun. On 2nd look at the last one you linked, if I'm being picky and you're asking, that could've used a titch more heat too. Next one go high, I doubt you have to drop much, if any!
Jon

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
« Reply #463 on: November 25, 2018, 01:57:09 AM »
I am sorry but your pies, even the one you linked to, look anemic, undercook and raw. At least the outer crust (you didn't provide a crumb shot). I agree with Jon and Josh that you should up the temp to the max.

Screens suck a lot of heat from the spot you place them in and a lot of pizzerias do that type of thing to lower the heat, and to control deck temps, in certain hot spots (empty screens). You don't have that luxury.

Your oven will not recover, nor maintain heat and temp, like a professional one, especially after you opened the door to put your pie in. So upping the temp to 500 F once you launched, is futile.

Instead, take your stone, throw it away and buy a square or rectangular one. Then get the new one as hot as possible, and monitor the bottom of the pie. Place a screen underneath once it reaches your desired browning.

P.S.: Those Bed and Bath stones suck. Bite the bullet and order a 1" thick stone from californiapizzastones.com. Best on the market.
Mike

“All styles of pizza are valid. I make the best I’m capable of; you should make the best you’re capable of. I don’t want to make somebody else’s pizza.” ~ Chris Bianco

Offline hammettjr

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Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
« Reply #464 on: November 25, 2018, 07:20:01 AM »
Yes, I get it. It was a worthwhile experiment, but the second stone had all kinds of impacts. I could play around with it to make it work, but I mostly likely wont go down that route.


Matt

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
« Reply #465 on: November 25, 2018, 10:43:31 PM »
Yes, I get it. It was a worthwhile experiment, but the second stone had all kinds of impacts. I could play around with it to make it work, but I mostly likely wont go down that route.

Matt,

Just to clarify,...my post above wasn't intended to come across as mean or condescending.

You make good looking pies, there's no doubt about that. But the last few lacked severely in color and looked raw and undercooked. You can do better than this.

I did the 2-stone thing, but in a different way. I started on the lower stone, then moved the pie to the upper stone to finish it. I also covered the vent of my home oven at that time with the lid of my cast iron cooker. Made a huge difference.

Also, I got rid of round, flimsy stones a long, long time ago. A lot of valuable heat passes them by and goes straight out your oven's vent. Not good.

I suggest a rectangular one, at least .75 inches thick, on the bottom and the same on top but without those "feet", or ridges, if you will. Keep them no more than 4 - 6 inches apart and when you're ready to move the pie up, kick in the broiler two minutes prior and you'll be fine.

Good luck.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2018, 10:45:18 PM by Essen1 »
Mike

“All styles of pizza are valid. I make the best I’m capable of; you should make the best you’re capable of. I don’t want to make somebody else’s pizza.” ~ Chris Bianco

Offline Hanglow

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Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
« Reply #466 on: November 26, 2018, 05:12:37 AM »
I've liked using firebricks from my wfo as a base in my kitchen oven.  I can fit 6 in on a shelf and they weigh 1kg each so add a decent amount of mass to the oven compared to a small stone at least. They are also cheap if I had to buy more, only a couple of £ each. Admittedly I've only used them this way a few times

Might be worth considering. You could also get creative with putting more in too

Offline hammettjr

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Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
« Reply #467 on: November 28, 2018, 09:06:22 PM »
No offense taken...I'm always looking to improve and constructive feedback helps. But I dont want to overreact to a failed/miscalibrated experiment. I plan to go back to basics this week, even going back down to 14".


Matt

Offline hammettjr

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Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
« Reply #468 on: December 01, 2018, 08:52:57 PM »
Well this was a different and delicious bake!  :chef:

I was trying to go back to my usual 14" pie, with a few small changes (thanks to you guys blasting my botched prior pie...it's necessary given my stubbornness.)

But a few more accidental changes occurred too.

Changes

- Very thin - I was trying for a small reduction of TF to 0.09125 and due to a warm dough and being used to 16" pies, I overstretched this by an inch. 15" pie at 400 grams = TF of 0.08. I stretched it inconsistently, with half the pie an even very thin, and half the pie a bit thicker. I had the thin side while it was hot and it was damn good.

- Hotter bake - Stone temp of 500-510 via pre-heating at 480 (and slightly longer than usual). (Jon, I use an IR gun and actually rotate my stone towards the end of the pre-heat. This pre-heat was a full 2 hours.)

- Stone was one rack higher, 3rd from the bottom.

- Dough was super warm. Warmed up for 3 hours with a lot of this time sitting directly in front of my oven. This helped lead to my overstretch. But I also think this led to more rim browning. The stone placement likely contributed too, but I've found previously that my warm dough browns more.

- I had bad luck in picking a frozen bag of 7/11 which yielded less than a cup of strained tomato, while I normally use 1+1/4 cups. I added a bit of heavily diluted paste to get it to 1 cup. So it was still less than normal, and I kept some of my seasoning amounts the same, so it was an even more heavily seasoned sauce.

- Sauce amount was slightly heaping 3/4 cup + ~ 1 TBS

- Cheese was 9oz, which was my usual amount for a 14" pie, so it was thinner than usual given the skin was 15"

- Bake was 8:30 with 7:15 on screen and 1:15 on stone

Thoughts
- I really liked the thin hot slice, with lots of sauce, good amount of cheese, and lots of seasoning.
- Probably too much garlic
- The paste adds an interesting dimension, but even in the small amount, I don't think I like it in my NY pie
- Still cant get rid of the ugly bubbles
- The thicker slices probably could have used more cheese

Next time
- Try TF 0.085
- 9oz mozz
- Back to my usual sauce
- Warm the dough up again, but don't overstretch
- Same bake protocol


« Last Edit: December 01, 2018, 08:58:41 PM by hammettjr »
Matt

Offline HansB

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Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
« Reply #469 on: December 01, 2018, 08:55:00 PM »
That looks really good Matt!
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Offline hammettjr

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Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
« Reply #470 on: December 09, 2018, 02:46:03 PM »
My schedule was going to be messed up this weekend, so I went out for pizza Friday night (see posts above). I decided to do a Sunday afternoon bake. My kids each made small pizzas, and I made an experimental one.

Loads of changes (and accidentally overstretched again), but the flavor is still all about the sauce.

Changes:
- Added a bit of romano to the sauce, replacing 1 tsp of parm with romano. This was awesome. It wasn't romano overload, but was there in the background. Will do this again.
- No garlic in the sauce and didn't miss it.
- Raised bake temp to 535, stone temp 515-530. Seemed good, hard to fully judge given some of the other changes. Bake time was 8:15 with 6:45 on the screen.
- Intended a TF of 0.085, but it overstretched on me, 16" at 371 grams is TF of 0.065. This was too thin, but still enjoyable.
- Changed my dough to 62% water, 0% oil (from my usual 54% water, 4% oil). Also only 12 hour CF. I really have no idea what the impact of this was. The crust was so thin I didn't even notice it.
- I didn't want to defrost my regular cheese. Ended up with 50% grande low fat and 50% whole milk grocery store Galbani. Seemed ok. This was a sauce-heavy pie as I only had so much cheese ready and I overstretched. I'd guess it was 10oz of mozz

Next time:
- Same romano/sauce
- Similar bake temp
- Try again for 14"
« Last Edit: December 09, 2018, 02:49:18 PM by hammettjr »
Matt

Offline Dangerous Salumi

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Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
« Reply #471 on: December 09, 2018, 03:42:08 PM »
I’d eat the last two pies even if they fell on the floor.

Are you trying to make an NYC street slice at home?
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Offline hammettjr

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Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
« Reply #472 on: December 09, 2018, 03:43:28 PM »
I am indeed!
Matt

Offline Dangerous Salumi

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Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
« Reply #473 on: December 09, 2018, 03:53:38 PM »
I am indeed!

I cant taste them from here but if they do taste as good as they look I’d say the project is finished.
Have a Dangerous day!


“They say that competitive eating is the battleground upon which God and Lucifer wage war for mens souls my friends, and they are right.”  - George Shea, Chairman, Major League Eating

Offline hammettjr

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Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
« Reply #474 on: December 09, 2018, 04:44:01 PM »
Thanks! Several bakes ago I proclaimed victory,  saying that I achieved everything I was looking for. But only a couple days later I was already planning changes.

Sauce is something I'll always tinker with. For one thing, I have a love/hate relationship with romano and can't make up my mind. (And my taste is evolving at the same time.)

Where I have the most work to do is the crust. It's always been an afterthought for me.

Matt

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Offline Dangerous Salumi

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Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
« Reply #475 on: December 09, 2018, 04:50:58 PM »
Thanks! Several bakes ago I proclaimed victory,  saying that I achieved everything I was looking for. But only a couple days later I was already planning changes.

Sauce is something I'll always tinker with. For one thing, I have a love/hate relationship with romano and can't make up my mind. (And my taste is evolving at the same time.)

Where I have the most work to do is the crust. It's always been an afterthought for me.

I will buy a bag of Romano. Ive been using Parm/Rom mix.
Have a Dangerous day!


“They say that competitive eating is the battleground upon which God and Lucifer wage war for mens souls my friends, and they are right.”  - George Shea, Chairman, Major League Eating

Offline jvp123

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Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
« Reply #476 on: December 09, 2018, 04:51:41 PM »
I cant taste them from here but if they do taste as good as they look I’d say the project is finished.

 ^^^.  You've got the melt down pat and the thin rim too.  Even the bottoms that have the iconic queens screen stamp on them.
Jeff

Offline Essen1

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Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
« Reply #477 on: December 11, 2018, 01:32:11 AM »
Matt,

I liked your write up.

Hopefully, those visits gave you some valuable insight in your quest to replicate those iconic slices at home. Despite that you favor mesh screens

Your last pie looked a whole lot better than the previous efforts.

I especially like the color of the rim, even though I think the rim should be a bit more pronounced....and browned. Maybe consider going a bit higher in dough ball weight, and move out of your comfort zone of creating these extremely small rims.

As always, no offense, and I hope you don't take it as such.  :)
« Last Edit: December 11, 2018, 08:18:45 AM by Steve »
Mike

“All styles of pizza are valid. I make the best I’m capable of; you should make the best you’re capable of. I don’t want to make somebody else’s pizza.” ~ Chris Bianco

Offline hammettjr

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Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
« Reply #478 on: December 12, 2018, 09:48:22 PM »
Thanks for the feedback and suggestions Mike
Matt

Offline hammettjr

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Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
« Reply #479 on: December 12, 2018, 09:54:40 PM »
As a note for myself for future reference and anyone reading through this thread, last weekend I went to 2 pizzerias, which was a great learning experience and gave me alot to think about.

NY Pizza Suprema inspired me to start experimenting with romano again, and Joe's has me thinking about my crust.

Below is a link to my review, pictures, and subsequent debate about the pizzerias.
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=55305.msg555629#msg555629

Matt

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