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Author Topic: How did she make the Sicilian Pizza?  (Read 1924 times)

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Offline jim2022

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Re: How did she make the Sicilian Pizza?
« Reply #20 on: August 14, 2022, 12:16:21 PM »
For what it is worth, I am uploading some more photos. Overall the pizza was terrible. The bottom was not brown, the crust was hard and overall the dough rose 1/4".

I am not using the recipe from the app anymore. I am going with higher temps as suggested by others.

The pizza was in the oven at 350F for 35mins. But I think it was doomed before it went in the oven.

Going to regroup on this and try again a a week or two. I will keep the tips from this thread handy and I will try the 2 recipes posted at a later date. The results are all on me.

Thanks,
Jim

P.S. For yrs I say to my GF, I am going to make a pizza, she replies can we order one or do we have a frozen one already? This is why ;D
« Last Edit: August 14, 2022, 12:20:12 PM by Pete-zza »

Online foreplease

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Re: How did she make the Sicilian Pizza?
« Reply #21 on: August 14, 2022, 03:36:37 PM »
You certainly had plenty of yeast. How hot was the water you used?
-Tony

Offline jim2022

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Re: How did she make the Sicilian Pizza?
« Reply #22 on: August 14, 2022, 03:46:43 PM »
Hi Tony,

I ran the water and then when it felt, "blood warm" so say 98F about I then used that water. I also used

Caputo Lievito Active Dry Yeast from a can that I store in the refrigerator. So I take enough yeast out of the can, then I add enough to a small pyrex cup and just let it sit there for a while. Then mix with the water. I try to keep the salt away from everything until the very end. I read salt prevents either yeast from blooming or hinders gluten formation, but either way the salt only at the end. Ironically I used the same yeast about 5 days ago to make a rustic bread in a stainless steel crockpot and then in the oven. That came out really good.

I am pretty sure this Caputo yeast (from a can ) is fine.

Jim

Offline Pizza-Face

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Re: How did she make the Sicilian Pizza?
« Reply #23 on: August 15, 2022, 06:07:37 PM »
Can you remember what the pan your Mom used looked like? Was it thick or thin? I'll bet it wasn't non-stick!

Offline jim2022

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Re: How did she make the Sicilian Pizza?
« Reply #24 on: August 16, 2022, 06:06:40 AM »
Hi Pizza-Face,

So the pan would date back to the late 1960's thru the 1980's. I can't recall if she used a thin rimmed type of pan, or something with tall sides. As far as non-stick - I don't know. I have watched videos of Sicilian pizza being made in say 1" tall sided pans, although the pizza was maybe 1/2" to 3/4" thick and the 1" tall sides seemed to be mostly due to the fact that is what the cook owned. Maybe the tall sides are needed even for a 1/2" tall style crust. I personally don't know either way. Also I have stated she baked at 350F. What I am trying to figure out is can you get a brown undercarriage at 350F? Right now I am questioning my own recollection on this. Since I recently made a 480 gram pizza for a 9" x 13" pan and the results were horrendous, ( actually not enough dough was first on the list of screwups ) I am thinking I need to cut my losses on this notion that somehow I am going to replicate what she has done. Doing an image search on Sicilian pizza and on average, I like the look of say 20% which I would enjoy eating. The others while having a thicker crust as well just don't look the same. But the 20% that look the way I like, some have recipes to go along with the images. Without trying to promote other recipes here from other sites, I found what my mom made was probably known as, "Sfincione pizza". And she learned it from my grandmother that was born sometime in the 1890's in Sicily, I believe.

Jim

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Offline Jon in Albany

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Re: How did she make the Sicilian Pizza?
« Reply #25 on: August 17, 2022, 10:12:28 AM »
I searched the site and there are a few sfincione pizza threads. Not many though. Maybe one of these has a photo you like and could be a good starting point.

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26622.0


https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9946.msg86449#msg86449


Offline jim2022

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Re: How did she make the Sicilian Pizza?
« Reply #26 on: August 18, 2022, 08:11:47 AM »
Hi Jon,

Thanks for the links. I believe this:

https://www.kingarthurbaking.com/recipes/sicilian-style-pizza-recipe

Is the closer of the two you have provided.

Since I am going for the same look, I can say my mom's had a more sculptured edge look to it.

So where you would look at the edge view, the KAB is more rounded, and hers was more squared off.

Maybe EEVO creates the more sculptured side view. Don't know.

Thanks,
Jim

Offline Pizza-Face

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Re: How did she make the Sicilian Pizza?
« Reply #27 on: August 18, 2022, 03:24:27 PM »
Actually the pizza you baked looked pretty good for a Grandma style on the top side. It even has the right thickness. That method/recipe would work with the right pan:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=69342.msg668352#msg668352

You will need this pan to get the browning on the bottom, and bake at least at 450F on a rack in your oven that is say 1 slot up from the bottom most oven wire rack slot.

Invest in that pan, only use the method and oil that Walter says to season it -*ONLY* listen to WALTER and no one else!
That pan seasoned, and never scrubbed or washed with soap, or put up wet, will last a lifetime.

That pan is probably closest to that 60s-70s pan your Mother had.

Offline gcpizza

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Re: How did she make the Sicilian Pizza?
« Reply #28 on: August 18, 2022, 06:15:21 PM »
First off, let me say that I've never made Sfincione before. In fact, I've never even eaten it. Like others I was thinking that the 350 F bake temperature seemed low. Not knowing really much about Sfincione, other than it's relation to American Sicilian pizza, I was wondering what bake temperature most Sfincione recipes specified. The first recipe that I looked at had the bake temperature at 180 C (356 F) which is what you are remembering. Looking over the rest of the recipe it seems to check all your boxes. It is thick. The dough's Thickness Factor is 0.208 oz/in2. The dough contains a lot of Olive Oil - 5% and a lot of yeast for a quick rise - 2%.

Things that I noticed about the dough:

The recipe doesn't specify a pan rise like most of the Sicilian recipes you'll see so much of the thickness comes from the large amount of dough and oven spring.

The dough has very low hydration - 50%. Much lower than the typical Silcillian dough you'll find on here - 65%-70% and it's even lower than the operators that use their rounds dough for their Sicilians - 58%-62%.

The recipe doesn't specify any oil or shortening for the pan. I think that that is probably an omission and that adding 2 tablespoons of olive oil to the 9x13 inch pan will most likely give you the browning you are looking for. If you have a stone or steel, using it will also assist with the browning.

The recipe also doesn't include any sugar. Adding 2% (8.632 g) to the below dough for a 9x13 inch pan would help a lot in regard to browning. 

The recipe specifies two flours. In trying to duplicate your mother's recipe you can likely use 100% of the type of flour she used or bread flour with little adjustment of the recipe.

Here is the URL of the full recipe and attached is an image of the dough formula scaled to your requested 9x13 inch pan.

https://www.greatitalianchefs.com/recipes/sfincione-recipe-sicilian-pizza

I haven't actually tried this recipe myself, but hopefully it gets you closer to recreating your mother's Sfincione recipe.

Offline jim2022

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Re: How did she make the Sicilian Pizza?
« Reply #29 on: August 18, 2022, 06:28:56 PM »
Pizza-face I followed the link to that 12 x 12 and it is currently out of stock. Seems pricey but will think about it. it is very annoying to hear a pan warp while making a pizza and you think something seriously broke in the kitchen.

GCpizza - nice recipe I will definitely look it over on Friday.

To be honest, the other one I was looking over is:
https://www.mangiabedda.com/sfincione-siciliano-sicilian-style-pizza/  <-- looks a lot my moms pizza.

Thanks to you both!
Jim

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Offline Pizza-Face

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Re: How did she make the Sicilian Pizza?
« Reply #30 on: August 19, 2022, 07:53:38 AM »
If you heard warp, it probably wasn't from that link. Those pans have a thick steel rod that the sheet steel is "COLD ROLLED" over, preventing warpage and directing heat towards the sides as well. Sad to hear they're OOS.

I went thru a stage of considering advice from other sites as well, got some flops for pizza, then I came here and joined in, took solid advice.
Invested in solid pans, and tools -you are only as good as your equipment.

If you want to clone a pizza, be it from memory or a real pizza joint, this is the place.

Offline Pizza-Face

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Re: How did she make the Sicilian Pizza?
« Reply #31 on: August 19, 2022, 08:04:15 AM »
Pizza-face I followed the link to that 12 x 12 and it is currently out of stock. Seems pricey but will think about it. it is very annoying to hear a pan warp while making a pizza and you think something seriously broke in the kitchen.

GCpizza - nice recipe I will definitely look it over on Friday.

To be honest, the other one I was looking over is:
https://www.mangiabedda.com/sfincione-siciliano-sicilian-style-pizza/  <-- looks a lot my moms pizza.

Thanks to you both!
Jim



Where did you see a post from Waltertore about out of stock? The latest posts have nothing about OOS. I can go to

https://www.swhenterprises.com/product/Cold-Rolled-Steel-Sicilian-Pizza-Pan-Grandma/1

and add any number of pans for checkout cart.

Offline Pizza-Face

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Re: How did she make the Sicilian Pizza?
« Reply #32 on: August 19, 2022, 08:10:13 AM »
First off, let me say that I've never made Sfincione before. In fact, I've never even eaten it. Like others I was thinking that the 350 F bake temperature seemed low. Not knowing really much about Sfincione, other than it's relation to American Sicilian pizza, I was wondering what bake temperature most Sfincione recipes specified. The first recipe that I looked at had the bake temperature at 180 C (356 F) which is what you are remembering. Looking over the rest of the recipe it seems to check all your boxes. It is thick. The dough's Thickness Factor is 0.208 oz/in2. The dough contains a lot of Olive Oil - 5% and a lot of yeast for a quick rise - 2%.

Things that I noticed about the dough:

The recipe doesn't specify a pan rise like most of the Sicilian recipes you'll see so much of the thickness comes from the large amount of dough and oven spring.

The dough has very low hydration - 50%. Much lower than the typical Silcillian dough you'll find on here - 65%-70% and it's even lower than the operators that use their rounds dough for their Sicilians - 58%-62%.

The recipe doesn't specify any oil or shortening for the pan. I think that that is probably an omission and that adding 2 tablespoons of olive oil to the 9x13 inch pan will most likely give you the browning you are looking for. If you have a stone or steel, using it will also assist with the browning.

The recipe also doesn't include any sugar. Adding 2% (8.632 g) to the below dough for a 9x13 inch pan would help a lot in regard to browning. 

The recipe specifies two flours. In trying to duplicate your mother's recipe you can likely use 100% of the type of flour she used or bread flour with little adjustment of the recipe.

Here is the URL of the full recipe and attached is an image of the dough formula scaled to your requested 9x13 inch pan.

https://www.greatitalianchefs.com/recipes/sfincione-recipe-sicilian-pizza

I haven't actually tried this recipe myself, but hopefully it gets you closer to recreating your mother's Sfincione recipe.

I have never seen, heard of, or tried ANY Sicilian or Grandma derivative thereof, at 50% hydration. That would be like chewing a well worn shoe!

Offline gcpizza

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Re: How did she make the Sicilian Pizza?
« Reply #33 on: August 19, 2022, 11:55:44 AM »
I have never seen, heard of, or tried ANY Sicilian or Grandma derivative thereof, at 50% hydration. That would be like chewing a well worn shoe!

The older I get, the more aware I become of all the things that I've have never seen or heard of before. This thread interested me because it is about something that I don't know much about and is about a pizza type not usually covered here on the forum. I started researching Sfincione after seeing that despite everyone's best efforts Jim wasn't obtaining his desired results. While American Sicilian pizza and Grandma pizza are derivatives of Sfincione, they are different. Jim is trying to recreate a recipe that his mother made that she learned from her mother. It is unlikely that either of them had thought about dough hydration other than just knowing when the dough "felt right". I may be wrong, but the higher hydration pizza doughs that we see today seem to me to be a relatively recent fad. A 50% hydrated  Sfincione dough isn't something that no one has ever heard of before. Someone even wrote a recipe for it. Someone else even wrote one using 52% hydration (https://sicilianfoodculture.com/recipe/sfincione-sicilian-pizza/). Jim is, of course, free to try these recipes or not as he chooses. If the other advice given here isn't giving him the results he desires, a lower hydrated dough is another thing he can try. The pictures that I've seen of Sfincione have a much denser crumb than the higher hydration Sicilian pizza of recent times. If 50% is too dense or too hard to work with he can try 58% or even 60% and see if that's closer to what he remembers. When it comes down to it there are only a few variables to play with. The amounts of flour, water, yeast, salt, oil and sugar. Just as every pizza of any style is not the made same way by everybody that makes it, there are numerous ways that people have made Sfincione. Jim just needs to figure out how his mother made it. These recipes may give him something else to try in his quest.

Offline jim2022

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Re: How did she make the Sicilian Pizza?
« Reply #34 on: August 19, 2022, 04:46:14 PM »
Pizza-face:

My post was confusing, here is what I was trying to say about warp.

For decades while making pizza at home, there would come a time during the cooking where I heard a loud bang coming from the kitchen. After a while (maybe the 3rd pizza) I realized that noise was the
pan I was using warping. That pan is/was flimsy and has nothing to do with cold steel rolled pans. It is most likely some aluminum pan. I have better pans but the pan I like right now is 13x9 cheap aluminum. Because it is small. I usually end up being the only one eating what I make and I do not like burning thru ingredients that fast until I get something that I can live with and others as well.

I have a better 8x8 pan with high sides that does not warp in the oven, plus I have a Loyds detroit pizza pan ( only used it a couple times ).

I am sure the cold-steel rolled pans are awesome. Let me look again later about, "out of stock too". maybe I had the wrong link.

Thanks,
Jim
P.S. Sorry for the confusion on the pan.

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Offline jim2022

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Re: How did she make the Sicilian Pizza?
« Reply #35 on: August 19, 2022, 04:50:14 PM »
GCPizza:

"It is unlikely that either of them had thought about dough hydration other than just knowing when the dough "felt right"."  You got this right, and I have no idea, again how she did it.

Offline Pizza-Face

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Re: How did she make the Sicilian Pizza?
« Reply #36 on: August 19, 2022, 08:04:58 PM »
The pizza you are looking at is the Grandma recipe I gave you earlier, only sized for my 15X11 Perdermo Italian made pan.
It's a "same day dough" Notice how the crumb is tight, and there are no big bubbles anywhere, not even inside the crumb.
The bottom and sides/corners are crunchy, the top light as a cloud, yet can hold up to the toppings
without forming a gum line.

I sized that recipe to be thicker than the one I gave you -1/2 deep for that recipe, -just let it rise near 1in in the pan,
when you top it it will deflate some, yet rise when cooking to 1/2in.

This is accomplished by "over yeasting", stretching dough to the corners and smashing back into them
& letting it rise in the pan.

Because it's a little cooler here, I added a bit more yeast than I usually do, simply letting it rise in the oven with the light on,
approx 85F. I do put the pan in a tote type container, and add a wet warm rag beside the pan to keep it from forming a "skin"
and to help keep that "clouds" layer under the toppings. I always let it rise over the edge some, today took 3hrs. on a 78F day,
as opposed to 1&1/2 hrs. on a 100F day, letting the tote/pan/rag set outside in the sun.

I wasn't able to get that color/crunch on the bottom until I sinked $40 shipped for that pan, although it was a cupla yrs. ago
-probably double that price now.

See attached. (Crap! may turn out sideways!)







Offline jim2022

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Re: How did she make the Sicilian Pizza?
« Reply #37 on: August 19, 2022, 08:22:33 PM »
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=76048.0;attach=461085;image

Pizza-face that looks very nice. Above is your recipe link. Saturday morning I will try your recipe.

Any other notes you have posted, I will look over for this thread.

Thanks,
Jim

Offline Pizza-Face

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Re: How did she make the Sicilian Pizza?
« Reply #38 on: August 19, 2022, 08:55:51 PM »
Whan you think it's done, use a burn/melt proof spatula to lift a corner and check for browning, several times if need be!

Offline jim2022

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Re: How did she make the Sicilian Pizza?
« Reply #39 on: August 20, 2022, 08:19:53 AM »
Hi Pizza-face today I am going to try the recipe you mentioned.

I am attaching a picture of the pan size. I thought it was 8 x 8 but it is 9.25 x 9.25 ( about )

If you wouldn't mind replying as if you never sent the recipe to me before and after viewing the pan itself, if you could please come up with the correct TBW. Also I don't know if shortening means add Crisco to the dough or use the Crisco just on the pan?

Thanks,
Jim
P.S. I have a total of 4 recipes to try and will be testing yours first.

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