More flavour in dough

[norma427]

I recently read a thread on PMQ think tank about More flavour in dough at http://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/more-flavour-in-the-dough.14995/  Since PMQ think tank has recently been changed this is what Tom Lehmann posted since I can't not get the direct link to what Tom posted.

Mike;
Here's another approach that I've had good success with in small stores. Get a 30-gallon plastic barrel with a lid approved for food contact. For a 50# flour basis dough size, make a sponge using 30# of flour, 15 to 16# of water (cold) and 0.75-ounce of instant dry yeast. Place these ingredients in the mixing bowl and mix at low speed for about 7-minutes then transfer to the barrel which has been lightly oiled inside. Cover and set aside to ferment overnight. I recommend making the sponge each night just before closing. The sponge will be ready to use on the following day. To make your dough, transfer the fermented sponge to the mixer, add 20# of flour, 14-ounces of salt, 12-ounces of sugar (optional), 2-ounces of instant dry yeast, 13 to 14-pounds of water (75F), 16-ounces of olive oil. Mix at low speed for 2-minutes without the oil, then add the oil and mix just until you achieve a smooth dough consistency/satiny appearance. You are looking for a finished dough temperature of 80 to 85F. After mixing immediately scale and ball, place into dough boxes, wipe the dough balls with a little salad oil, and place in a reach in cooler for at least 2-hours before using. The dough will keep all day in the reach in. Just be sure to stagger/off set the boxes as you place them in the reach in to allow for more effective cooling. After about 2-hours the boxes can be nested to prevent drying. This process gives a finished crust with improved flavor over same day dough and it is about as close to bullet proof as one can get.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

And

Mike;
One of the things that we commonly do is to make a master sponge which is nothing more than a sponge that is large enough to be divided between a number of doughs. Now, every time you make a dough during the day you just add the correct weight of sponge to the dough and you will get an improvement in flavor with each of the doughs. Sponges are very tolerant to variations in fermentation time so you don't have much if any variation in flavor due to differences in sponge age over the course of the day.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Is Tom's sponge method an easy one to convert for smaller dough batches other than 50 lb. of flour?

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Is Tom's sponge method an easy one to convert for smaller dough batches other than 50 lb. of flour?

Norma

Norma,

The math isn't difficult but it all has to be done longhand with pencil and paper since none of the dough calculating tools can do all of the calculations required by Tom's sponge method. That means that anytime you want to change anything, all of the calculations will have to be redone by hand.

FYI, using the top part of the preferment dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/preferment_calculator.html, this is what the Total Formula looks like, without any bowl residue compensation:

Total Formula: Flour (100%): Water (60%): Salt (1.75%): IDY (0.34375%): Olive Oil (2%): Sugar (1.5%): Total (165.59375%):

22680 g  |  800 oz | 50 lbs 13608 g  |  480 oz | 30 lbs 396.9 g | 14 oz | 0.88 lbs | 23.7 tbsp | 1.48 cups 77.96 g | 2.75 oz | 0.17 lbs | 8.63 tbsp | 0.54 cups 453.6 g | 16 oz | 1 lbs | 33.6 tbsp | 2.1 cups 340.2 g | 12 oz | 0.75 lbs | 28.44 tbsp | 1.78 cups 37556.66 g | 1324.75 oz | 82.8 lbs | TF = N/A

To use the above to complete the rest of the exercise, you would have to subtract the amounts of ingredients used to make the Preferment (sponge) from the values given in the Total Formula set forth above to arrive at the amounts of the ingredients to be used to make the Final Dough. All of the quantities are scalable to any dough ball weight you want but all of the math has to be done by hand.

BTW, in coming up with the above formulation, I used 16 pounds of water for the Preferment portion and 14 pounds of water for the Final Dough. Tom's recipe actually has four different amounts of water that can be used. You would have to decide which pair of water quantities you want to use. The above formulation also assumes regular salt, not Kosher salt.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

The math isn't difficult but it all has to be done longhand with pencil and paper since none of the dough calculating tools can do all of the calculations required by Tom's sponge method. That means that anytime you want to change anything, all of the calculations will have to be redone by hand.

FYI, using the top part of the preferment dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/preferment_calculator.html, this is what the Total Formula looks like, without any bowl residue compensation:

Total Formula: Flour (100%): Water (60%): Salt (1.75%): IDY (0.34375%): Olive Oil (2%): Sugar (1.5%): Total (165.59375%):

22680 g  |  800 oz | 50 lbs 13608 g  |  480 oz | 30 lbs 396.9 g | 14 oz | 0.88 lbs | 23.7 tbsp | 1.48 cups 77.96 g | 2.75 oz | 0.17 lbs | 8.63 tbsp | 0.54 cups 453.6 g | 16 oz | 1 lbs | 33.6 tbsp | 2.1 cups 340.2 g | 12 oz | 0.75 lbs | 28.44 tbsp | 1.78 cups 37556.66 g | 1324.75 oz | 82.8 lbs | TF = N/A

To use the above to complete the rest of the exercise, you would have to subtract the amounts of ingredients used to make the Preferment (sponge) from the values given in the Total Formula set forth above to arrive at the amounts of the ingredients to be used to make the Final Dough. All of the quantities are scalable to any dough ball weight you want but all of the math has to be done by hand.

BTW, in coming up with the above formulation, I used 16 pounds of water for the Preferment portion and 14 pounds of water for the Final Dough. Tom's recipe actually has four different amounts of water that can be used. You would have to decide which pair of water quantities you want to use. The above formulation also assumes regular salt, not Kosher salt.

Peter

Peter,

I thought the calculations would have to be done longhand with paper and pencil for Tom's sponge method.   

Thanks for using the preferment dough calculating tool to show what the total formula looks like without any bowl residue compensation.  If I can get things figured out longhand with paper and pencil I would like to try the formulation I posted at Reply 1805 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9068.msg304434#msg304434 using Kosher salt.  I would just like to see if that gives my boardwalk style dough any better flavor in the crust.  I am not sure if I can complete the rest of the exercise from the values given in the Total Formula set forth to arrive at the amounts of ingredients to be used in the Final Dough.  I would like to try a 5 dough ball batch.  I did not catch the part about Tom's recipe actually having four different amounts of water that can be used.  What amount of water do you think would be best to try?  Could I try what I am now using?

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

In Tom's recipe, he calls for 15 to 16 pounds of water for the sponge and 13 to 14 pounds of water for the final dough. You will have to decide on what set of values you would want to use if you were to use Tom's recipe.

As an alternative to using Tom's recipe, where you seem to be leaning, you can use the Boardwalk formulation you referenced and adapt it to use a sponge. The sponge used by Tom has a hydration of around 53% and represents about 92% of the total formula flour. You could use the same percents or else you can follow the recommendations discussed in the Didier Rosada article at http://web.archive.org/web/20040814193817/cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food3_apr2004.htm. Technically, I believe that Tom's sponge is more like a biga because of its lower hydration value than is typically used for a sponge, based on the Rosada article.

There is no one way that is best or right. Once you decide on which way you would like to go, maybe I can help you with an initial formulation to try.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

In Tom's recipe, he calls for 15 to 16 pounds of water for the sponge and 13 to 14 pounds of water for the final dough. You will have to decide on what set of values you would want to use if you were to use Tom's recipe.

As an alternative to using Tom's recipe, where you seem to be leaning, you can use the Boardwalk formulation you referenced and adapt it to use a sponge. The sponge used by Tom has a hydration of around 53% and represents about 92% of the total formula flour. You could use the same percents or else you can follow the recommendations discussed in the Didier Rosada article at http://web.archive.org/web/20040814193817/cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food3_apr2004.htm. Technically, I believe that Tom's sponge is more like a biga because of its lower hydration value than is typically used for a sponge, based on the Rosada article.

There is no one way that is best or right. Once you decide on which way you would like to go, maybe I can help you with an initial formulation to try.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for telling me in Tom's recipe how much water is used in the sponge and final dough.  I see there are differences.  Between the 15 to 16 pounds of water for the sponge and the 13 to 14 pounds of water for the final dough sure are differences. 

I recall when I used Tom's method for making a biga for the preferment Lehmann dough.  I don't know what I did wrong there but did not like the results.  I think if I recall right the final dough was too dry.

I think after looking at Didier Rosada's article on a sponge I would like to try Didier's way of creating a sponge for the boardwalk style dough.  I never did get that straightened out what the differences were between a biga and sponge.  I see Didier's method says the absorption of the sponge is around 60-63% and says it is a stiff dough.  I also see it should be used after full maturation and there are clues to tell when it is ready for incorporation into the final dough.  I guess that also is a tricky part to get right and not adversely affect the strength of the dough, or maybe the dough might not have proper acid development.  I see Didier says a sponge using minimal yeast and an overnight fermentation offers the baker a longer period of time between under-maturation and over-maturation.

Norma

[pythonic]

What is the difference between a sponge and poolish?

[Pete-zza]

What is the difference between a sponge and poolish?

Nate,

A classic poolish has equal weights of flour and water and, hence, an absorption (hydration) of 100%. By contrast, a classic sponge has an absorption of around 60-63%. You can read more about these two forms of preferments in the Didier Rosada article at http://web.archive.org/web/20040814193817/cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food3_apr2004.htm.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

Can you give me an idea as to the temperature that would exist at market when you would make the sponge preferment? And, also, what duration would you want to use for the sponge preferment before incorporating it into the final mix?

I raise the above questions because any preferment you make at market will always be at the mercy of the amount of yeast used in the preferment and the temperature at which the preferment is held until used to finish the dough. I suspect that Tom's sponge recipe and methods were intended for a more stable temperature environment, such as exists, for example, in a typical enclosed pizzeria. Also, I suspect that his version of the sponge was more like a biga because it is of a lower hydration than the classical poolish or sponge preferments and there is no break point to speak of with a biga as there is for a poolish or sponge. That makes a biga less temperature and time sensitive. As a practical matter, what this may mean is that any sponge you make will be what it will be and you will have to adjust the final mix to compensate for any shortcomings in the sponge and hope you end up with a product that can be repeated consistently to get the desired end results.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

Can you give me an idea as to the temperature that would exist at market when you would make the sponge preferment? And, also, what duration would you want to use for the sponge preferment before incorporating it into the final mix?

I raise the above questions because any preferment you make at market will always be at the mercy of the amount of yeast used in the preferment and the temperature at which the preferment is held until used to finish the dough. I suspect that Tom's sponge recipe and methods were intended for a more stable temperature environment, such as exists, for example, in a typical enclosed pizzeria. Also, I suspect that his version of the sponge was more like a biga because it is of a lower hydration than the classical poolish or sponge preferments and there is no break point to speak of with a biga as there is for a poolish or sponge. That makes a biga less temperature and time sensitive. As a practical matter, what this may mean is that any sponge you make will be what it will be and you will have to adjust the final mix to compensate for any shortcomings in the sponge and hope you end up with a product that can be repeated consistently to get the desired end results.

Peter

Peter,

As I think you might already know there is no way I can predict what the ambient temperatures will be at market when I would make the sponge preferment.  One time the temperatures might be around 39 degrees F and maybe the next time I go into market the temperature might be 70 degrees F or much higher.

I understand any preferment made at market will always be at the mercy of the amount of yeast used in the preferment and the temperature at which the preferment will be held until used to finish the dough.  I also believe Tom methods were intended for a more stable temperature environment.  I understand that Tom's sponge method was more like a biga because it is a lower hydration than the classical poolish or sponge preferments and there is no break point to speak of with a biga as there are with a poolish or sponge.  I can understand how that makes a biga less temperature and time sensitive. 

I guess I really won't try the sponge method out for market because of the variable conditions there.  I had just wanted to see if using a sponge method would give a better taste to the crust than I now am getting.  I sure would not be able to adjust the final mix to compensate for any shortcoming in the sponge.  I had just thought about starting the sponge at home on a Sunday to incorporate into a final dough on Monday to just see if there or any taste or texture difference in the final crust.  I guess I will cross off this experiment, because already I understand too much work would have to be done on your part.

Thanks for helping me understand more though.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

I don't mind giving it a try. In fact, it might be an interesting exercise. I just wanted you to know what the issues are. I think the major adjustment at the final mix stage would be the amount of yeast. Specifically, in cold weather, you would use more yeast, and in warm weather, you would use less. It would take experience in assessing the state of the sponge at the time of intended use--most likely how it looks--and how to modify or adjust for it from a yeast quantity standpoint. It would be somewhat a seat of the pants sort of thing with no math involved.

Can you tell me what the market temperature is this time of year? And what flour, type of oil, and type of salt you would be using?

Peter

[Doug H]

I have been struggling for quite some time to find out what elements produce the most flavor in dough. Lately I have been going with a one day poolish. I'm wondering if a sponge would make more, or less flavor?

There has to be some secret that artisan bakers know that boosts basic bread to the next level. Autolyze? Long cold ferment? Sourdough? What else? I just got Ken Forkish's book, so I may be close to THE answer (or, maybe, AN answer). (His pizza is amoung the best!)

[norma427]

Norma,

I don't mind giving it a try. In fact, it might be an interesting exercise. I just wanted you to know what the issues are. I think the major adjustment at the final mix stage would be the amount of yeast. Specifically, in cold weather, you would use more yeast, and in warm weather, you would use less. It would take experience in assessing the state of the sponge at the time of intended use--most likely how it looks--and how to modify or adjust for it from a yeast quantity standpoint. It would be somewhat a seat of the pants sort of thing with no math involved.

Can you tell me what the market temperature is this time of year? And what flour, type of oil, and type of salt you would be using?

Peter

Peter,

Thank you for saying you don't mind giving a sponge in the boardwalk formulation a try.  Thanks also for telling me you think the major adjustment at the final mix stage would be the amount of yeast.  I can understand in cold weather more yeast would be needed than in warmer weather.  I really don't know how a sponge should look to be able to assess when it would be ready. 

To tell you the current temperatures at market for this last week Monday was about 39 degrees F and today when I went to market the temperature was 50 degrees F.  Of course Tuesday's are always warmer because the heaters are turned on more.  It is also getting a little warmer in our area so if I would have to guess at a temperature at market it would be between 45-50 degrees F.

I am using Full Strength flour now, the type of oil is Lira Olive Pomace Oil at http://www.webstaurantstore.com/lira-olive-pomace-oil-1-gallon-tin/101OLIVEPOMT.html and I Morton's Kosher salt. 

Norma 

[waltertore]

Norma and I have been feverishly corresponding back and forth on this subject.  I learned years ago in my bakery experience that making a yeast/flour/water preferment the night before would add more flavor to breads.  I have experimented with this lately because our business is picking up so fast that I can no longer do daily 3-5 day ferments in the fridge due to lack of space.  I can still fit 1-2 day ferments and Friday we make dough for Monday.  I have tried using our sourdough starter for a 1 day dough but found the flavor to be too sourdoughish for my taste.  My first experiment with the night before preferment/starter/biga or whatever you want to call it had too much yeast and created a very yeasty taste.  No one seemed to notice it but I sure did.  The cool part was it brought back tastes that I remember from the 60's eating pizza in NJ.  It was a much similar in flavor, although too strong, of the same day doughes I grew up with.  It was  very light colored rim/undercrust and not very good looking IMO.  After bouncing back and forth with Norma I cut way back on the preferment yeast amount for todays dough.   

Here are the results and I have to say they were impressive.  I added oil/sugar to the dough at the levels Norma uses.   We were very busy today - 40 pizzas in 3 hours, several hundred bagels, 15 pounds of dog biscuits, large french baguette order for a caterer, about 600 cookies we sell to 2 school districts, a local entrepenur who is opening a soul food restaurant came in to discuss hiring some of my students, a call from a Columbus gluten free pizza company owner........

Once I had mixed/balled the preferment with the remaining flour, water, IDY, salt, oil, sugar, I put it in the fridge figuring at the end of the day I would play around with it.  I forgot about it till we were near out of dough and more orders were coming in.  I checked the fridge to see if we had any dough left and it was the only dough left.  It didn't  have time to warm up/finish its rise properly.  I had a good deal of trouble opening it and getting it to size and it bubbled up quite a bit.  With a longer room temp rise depending on room temp and if it was put in fridge, it should be easier to work with I think. I will try it again next week. 

I left the breakdown between preferment and final ingredients at work.  It made 6-20 oz dough balls with enough left over to make a small pizza bread that my kids love.  I can post the formula Monday if anyone is interested.  Thanks Norma for responding to my many posts.  You got me thinking oil again.  I had dropped it from my sauce and dough a ways back.  I love experimenting with eyeballing things and that was what this experiment was.  Luckily I weighed everything pretty close and wrote it down   Walter

the pictures are from an extremely rushed scene. I would have cooked this pie a bit longer in retrospect but such is life in the fast lane!

[norma427]

Walter,

Thanks so much for posting the pictures of your pies with a preferment.  They look picture perfect to me!  The rim crust looks so appetizing and your bottom crust is spot on.    I enjoyed seeing your preferment.  You did a great job on figuring out what you did by yourself.  I will be anxious to see what you used for the preferment and final dough.  Great to hear that that it brought back tastes you remembers in the 60's eating pizza in NJ.  I could dive into one of your slices right now.

I enjoyed corresponding with you.

Norma

[waltertore]

thanks Norma!  You inspire me with your go for it drive to conquer so many different styles of pizza. It makes me remember there are no rules and that makes it fun.  I will post the numbers Monday.  Walter 

[norma427]

thanks Norma!  You inspire me with your go for it drive to conquer so many different styles of pizza. It makes me remember there are no rules and that makes it fun.  I will post the numbers Monday.  Walter

Thanks to you too Walter!  What you do in your classroom also inspires me.  Thanks for saying you will post the numbers on Monday.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

What usually dictates the amount of yeast to be used in a preferment such as a sponge or poolish is the amount of yeast used in the sponge or poolish. For example, if you look at the formulation I used at Reply 28 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6515.msg62814#msg62814, you will see that I put all of the formula yeast (almost 1.4%) into the sponge (actually the sponge was between a classic sponge and a poolish, which is I why I put the word sponge in parentheses in the second line of the post). With all of the yeast in the sponge, it took only three hours for the sponge to peak and collapse on itself, as is shown in one of the photos. Eventually, the dough ball went into the refrigerator for almost two days but the high amount of yeast in the sponge still had its effect on the fermentation of the dough ball.

For an example on the other end of the spectrum, you will see from the formulation I used in Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6515.msg56131#msg56131, that I used only 1/32 teaspoon of IDY in the poolish preferment. And it took about 15 hours for the poolish to become noticeably active.

What I have been thinking about for your situation is something like what I did in Reply 4 referenced above but using a sponge instead of a poolish and, at the same time, trying to adapt everything to your market temperature of 45-50 degrees F and a contemplated 15 hour prefermentation period (unless you would like some other time period). That is where the heavy math comes in. In this vein, I would be guided by Didier Rosada's work as discussed in the article at http://web.archive.org/web/20040814193817/cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food3_apr2004.htm and also tying in some of member November's work. Unfortunately, the Rosada article referenced above does not show the peaking and collapsing of the sponge or poolish (although I show the phenomenon in the photo in Reply 28 referenced above). The original Rosada article no longer is available on the Internet. I retrieved the article from the Wayback Machine archives.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

What usually dictates the amount of yeast to be used in a preferment such as a sponge or poolish is the amount of yeast used in the sponge or poolish. For example, if you look at the formulation I used at Reply 28 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6515.msg62814#msg62814, you will see that I put all of the formula yeast (almost 1.4%) into the sponge (actually the sponge was between a classic sponge and a poolish, which is I why I put the word sponge in parentheses in the second line of the post). With all of the yeast in the sponge, it took only three hours for the sponge to peak and collapse on itself, as is shown in one of the photos. Eventually, the dough ball went into the refrigerator for almost two days but the high amount of yeast in the sponge still had its effect on the fermentation of the dough ball.

For an example on the other end of the spectrum, you will see from the formulation I used in Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6515.msg56131#msg56131, that I used only 1/32 teaspoon of IDY in the poolish preferment. And it took about 15 hours for the poolish to become noticeably active.

What I have been thinking about for your situation is something like what I did in Reply 4 referenced above but using a sponge instead of a poolish and, at the same time, trying to adapt everything to your market temperature of 45-50 degrees F and a contemplated 15 hour prefermentation period (unless you would like some other time period). That is where the heavy math comes in. In this vein, I would be guided by Didier Rosada's work as discussed in the article at http://web.archive.org/web/20040814193817/cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food3_apr2004.htm and also tying in some of member November's work. Unfortunately, the Rosada article referenced above does not show the peaking and collapsing of the sponge or poolish (although I show the phenomenon in the photo in Reply 28 referenced above). The original Rosada article no longer is available on the Internet. I retrieved the article from the Wayback Machine archives.

Peter

Peter,

Thank you for your link to where you used the sponge that collapsed fast from the high amount of yeast (that was between a classic sponge and a poolish) and your link to where you tried the poolish preferment with a small amount of yeast in JerryMac's dough.  Could you say offhand which pizza was better in the taste of the crust?

I don't know how you are going to figure all the math out to set-forth a sponge formulation and a final dough for me to try in addition to trying to adapt it for market.  If you can, I sure would be interested in seeing if it would give a better flavor. 

Norma

[waltertore]

Norma:  My room is usually around the mid 60's this time of year in the overnight hours and my preferement rises fine.  I didn't take the water temp. I did turn the hot tap on a bit because our cold water temp is in the 40's.  Didn't I read somewhere you have a warming box?  If not you can try this and I am sure you know about it already. Put the preferment inside a box( a cardboard box might work just fine) with a lightbulb on- just a cheap standard hanging light extension cord you can buy at home depot or one that will hold an oven light size bulb is ideal for an insulated set up.  Once I built the box out of rigid insulation that was held together with blue masking tape so it could be taken apart/put together in a minute with no damage to the foam.  We use these kind of boxes to cure epoxy for the fusalages and fiberglass sheeted wings that my friends and I build for radio controlled gliders.  I had to drill large holes in it that could be covered/uncovered to adjust the heat for the baking box but I think now there are cheap thermostadt controllers for the light bulb?  A large cooler with a pan of hot water can work great too. When I smoke meats for a large party I store them in a cooler until serving.  Without opening/closing the cooler until use, the meat stays hot for hours.  With the foam you will be amazed at how low a wattage bulb you will need.   It may work just fine till the warmer nights of spring/summer comes and just water temp adjustments will allow it to sit out.  I would also try my formula sitting out on your shop counter with warm water and see what happens just for the heck of it. Walter

 PS:  One more idea??  Couldn't you make the preferment at home the day before and then bring it to market on your day, mix, ball, and see how long it takes to rise for baking?.  But do you really need all these new experiment ideas to scramble your mind

[norma427]

Norma:  My room is usually around the mid 60's this time of year in the overnight hours and my preferement rises fine.  I didn't take the water temp. I did turn the hot tap on a bit because our cold water temp is in the 40's.  Didn't I read somewhere you have a warming box?  If not you can try this and I am sure you know about it already. Put the preferment inside a box( a cardboard box might work just fine) with a lightbulb on- just a cheap standard hanging light extension cord you can buy at home depot or one that will hold an oven light size bulb is ideal for an insulated set up.  Once I built the box out of rigid insulation that was held together with blue masking tape so it could be taken apart/put together in a minute with no damage to the foam.  We use these kind of boxes to cure epoxy for the fusalages and fiberglass sheeted wings that my friends and I build for radio controlled gliders.  I had to drill large holes in it that could be covered/uncovered to adjust the heat for the baking box but I think now there are cheap thermostadt controllers for the light bulb?  A large cooler with a pan of hot water can work great too. When I smoke meats for a large party I store them in a cooler until serving.  Without opening/closing the cooler until use, the meat stays hot for hours.  With the foam you will be amazed at how low a wattage bulb you will need.   It may work just fine till the warmer nights of spring/summer comes and just water temp adjustments will allow it to sit out.  I would also try my formula sitting out on your shop counter with warm water and see what happens just for the heck of it. Walter

 PS:  One more idea??  Couldn't you make the preferment at home the day before and then bring it to market on your day, mix, ball, and see how long it takes to rise for baking?.  But do you really need all these new experiment ideas to scramble your mind

Walter,

Thank you for telling me what your room temperature was, what you did with your water to get it a little warmer this time of the year and telling me that overnight your preferment rises fine.  I wonder what your preferment really is.  Your preferment looks rather stiff to me.  Is that right?  I guess I mean is your preferment really a sponge, or somewhere between a sponge and a poolish.  Your are more the baker in terms of preferments than I am.  I do having a warming unit that I use to temper my Detroit style doughs and did use that same warming unit to make the poolish for the preferment Lehmann dough.  This is what the Hatco warming cabinet looked like before I took it to market at Reply 186 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9908.msg89362#msg89362 

Norma