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Offline waltertore

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1140 on: January 23, 2015, 07:52:28 PM »
Walter,

Thanks again for your explanations!  I don't want a dough that really is a mess to work with  I can understand for a regular market dough that would be a very dangerous place to be.  I guess I will see what happens.

Norma

Norma:  Have you tried brushing the crust with oil?  I have never done it on pizza but somewhere on the forum I posted photos of leftover dough balls that we turned into bread rounds.  I brushed them with oil and they blistered off the chart.  Franks method of oil on the bench to open a dough produced blistering when I tried it a while back but my photos that are posted on that thread were not good enough to really see it in detail.   Walter
« Last Edit: January 23, 2015, 07:54:12 PM by waltertore »
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Offline norma427

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1141 on: January 23, 2015, 09:59:03 PM »
Norma,

Today I did several forum searches of my posts using the terms "blister", "blisters" and "blistering". I then studied the posts to get an idea as to how blistering factored into my pizzas. When I was done, I concluded that the single factor that was consistent through all of my pizzas where I talked about blistering in my posts was a long fermentation. The long fermentation was as a result of using a small amount of yeast and a long, cold fermentation, or using a larger amount of yeast but where the dough was in effect on the cusp of overfermenting. The latter was fairly rare for me since I was not a user of large amounts of yeast for my doughs. However, in my next post, I will talk a bit about frozen doughs using large amounts of yeast and where blistering did occur when defrosted and used to make pizzas.

Some of the best examples of cases where I used a small amount of yeast and long fermentations are in the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.0.html. In that thread, I discussed six different pizzas where the duration of cold fermentation was in the range of about six days to 23 days. I specifically mentioned the blistering phenomenon in those six cases although I wish I had done a better job showing the blistering in the photos I posted. The specific posts are Reply 23 (10 days plus 4 1/2 hours of cold fermentation), Reply 29 (12 days and 4 1/2 hours), Reply 35 (6 1/3 days), Reply 91 (7 days), Reply 110 (15 days), Reply 117 (23 days) and Reply 123 (12 days). What is significant about these pizzas was the fact that they all used the same basic dough formulation (a basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation), with just flour, water, yeast (IDY or ADY) and oil (and no sugar). However, I did try a few different flours and I tweaked the amount of yeast but not in a way that would have affected the results I was trying to achieve, namely, long dough lives. Also, as a significant departure from the way that most people use yeast in forming their doughs, in my case I used both IDY and ADY (in dry form) late in the dough making process. This was done intentionally to ensure a long cold fermentation window. But while this result was achieved, it could not be said that the late addition of the IDY or ADY "caused" the blistering, at least not directly, and especially since we all know that blistering can occur where the yeast is used in its normal manner.

I also studied my posts to see if I could draw a line as to when blistering is likely to occur. In my case, I would put that line at about three days of cold fermentation. For example, in the Boardwalk thread, I entered at least three posts where I discussed blistering, and the duration of the cold fermentation was about three days in each case. The relevant posts are at Replies 204, 301 and 307.

I also looked for examples of posts where blistering occurred in my pizzas below three days of cold fermentation. I could not find any although as noted above my doughs usually did not use a lot of yeast as to promote rapid fermentation, up to an including overfermentation or something just shy of it. I also cannot recall any case where an emergency dough that I made led to a crust with detectable blistering. Maybe they were there but I did not notice them because I was looking for something else. I think a good thread on the minimal window of fermentation to get blistering is Chau's thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10656.0.html. As I reread that thread, I found myself nodding in agreement several times.

I think it is also important to point out several things that I did not do with my doughs that exhibited blistering. For example, I did not spray or coat the rims of skins with oil before dressing. I did coat dough balls with oil but not the rims. I also did not let the skins become dry. My practice was to cover a tempering dough ball or a skin made therefrom with plastic wrap. I also did not use any bromated flours. I also did not detect a correlation between hydration value and the occurrence of blistering. I was able to achieve it with hydration values of around 65% and around 50% and values in between.

So, my conclusion is that the predominant factor in the creation of blistering is prolonged fermentation, however achieved. It is also possible that the bake environment and bake temperatures may be implicated in the blistering phenomenon but in my case I used only my standard, builders grade electric home oven. However, I would think that a high bake temperature is better for creating blisters than low bake temperatures.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for doing several forum searches of your post using the terms blister, blisters and blistering, and studying the posts to get an ideas as how blistering factored into your pizzas.  Interesting that you concluded that the single factor that was consistent trhough all of your pizzas that showed blistering was a long fermentation. 

I looked at all of your posts on the New KitchenAid Dough Making Method thread, and on the boardwalk thread.  After looking at your pizzas on the boardwalk thread it reminded me that I didn't do a last experiment using your last formulation for the boardwalk style dough.  I have to see if I can find some supermarket cheddar, that might go along with your dough formulation and also a supermarket sauce that might be able to be used.

I agree that Chau's thread is a good thread to read about blistering. 

Thanks also for telling me that you think higher temperatures would be better than low temperatures for creating blistering.

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1142 on: January 23, 2015, 10:01:57 PM »
In my last post, I mentioned frozen dough balls and their proclivity to produce blistering in the finished crust. I had noted that myself when Norma and I played around with frozen Mellow Mushroom clone dough balls. And I noted from one of Tom Lehmann's posts that he, too, had observed the blistering phenomenon with frozen dough balls.

The best explanation I can offer for why frozen dough balls may be prone to producing blistering in the finished crust, at least for many commercially produced frozen dough balls, is the typically large amount of yeast used to make the frozen dough balls. The large amount of yeast is used because freezing damages some of the yeast. So, to compensate for the loss of some of the yeast, the amount used can be two or even three times the amount of yeast used in normal doughs that are not subjected to freezing. It is also well known that frozen dough balls have a limited life once they are defrosted. From what I have read, and also from my experience with the MM frozen clone dough balls, that window of use is about two days. However, in practice, some pizza operators will try to stretch that to three days or maybe even four days. By that time, the dough is almost on its last legs, that is, overfermented, or very close to it. So, while the life of the dough ball is not especially long, it is still far past its prime and therefore prone to producing blistering in the finished crust much like a dough that uses a small amount of yeast but a very long cold fermentation window. Pizza operators well understand all of this and rather than throwing away an overfermented dough that is no longer suitable to make pizzas, they make breadsticks, or cheesesticks or garlic knots and the like out of the spent dough.

Peter

Peter,

I think I had blistering in the rims from some of the preferment Lehmann dough pizzas made from frozen dough balls.  Some of those doughs were pretty slack.

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1143 on: January 23, 2015, 10:06:48 PM »

  Just another suggestion...."fazzari"  seems to have the blistering thing down. Jus say'in....

Bob,

What you say is true but John used things like preferments (which Norma used at market and got blistering), bulk fermentations and re-ballings. I'm not sure these measures are ones that Norma wants or is able to implement at market.

Maybe others will fill in some of the gaps of my last two posts with suggestions that Norma might be able to use at market. Of course, Norma could do a broad forum search herself to fill in some of the gaps. There are only 477 posts that contain the word "blisters", 88 posts that contain the word "blister" and 389 posts that contain the word "blistering". ;D There is some overlap in the three searches but the total number is perhaps over 500 posts.

Peter

Bob,

Thanks for chiming in about fazzari's blistering on his rim crusts.  Like Peter posted I really don't want to get into using a preferment again, or do any reballing.  I am trying to keep things as simple as possible because it is enough trying to control things at market in the different temperatures.

Peter,

No thanks, I don't want to search all of those posts.  Call me lazy if you want. 

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1144 on: January 23, 2015, 10:09:22 PM »
Some observations:  I mized a small dough ball for use last night.  It sat out for about 90 minutes and went in fridge for 30 minutes before I pulled it out to use it.  It was a decent pie, but no blistering.  I also mixed dough for Monday night's pies.  Monday's pies always have blistering.  Primarily on the bottom, because my oven doesn't give much top heat during bake.  The dough is easy work with, and the finished crust is really tasty.  My favorite local guy always serves up a blistered pie, and it's one of the best around.

gfgman,

Thanks for your observations.  Does your local pizzeria owner have blisters on his rims, or is the blistering on the bottom crust?

Norma

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Offline norma427

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1145 on: January 23, 2015, 10:15:39 PM »
Hi Norma  ;D

I certainly cannot answer what causes blistering in pizza with any confidence, but the last bake I had resulted in decent blistering. Unfortunately, in this case, the dough was still pretty cold since I did not have much time for tempering. I recall taking an IR temp of the dough around 60* just before making the pizza. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=34538.msg358448#msg358448

If it helps any, I've been doing mainly 24hr cold ferments using IDY, always a small percentage of oil & sugar, all-trumps bromated flour, ~63% effective hydration. Also, my NY style doughs are more likely under-fermented than over-fermented. 

To add to what Craig suggested, maybe it's possible that baking an 18" pizza in my oven creates enough steam to cause the blistering? I see the most blistering in my bread baking when I cover it with a stainless bowl during its bake, so it makes sense that steam might be the largest contributor to pizza blistering.

Hi Josh,

Lol, you add to my confusion when you posted that your dough have been 24 hr. cold ferments and you achieved blistering on your rim crust.  The part about your NY style dough are more likely to be under-fermented also is interesting.

I think an oven is pretty dry, especially my gas deck oven.  I don't think a pizza would create a lot of steam in a bake, but I sure don't know.   :-D

Norma

Offline woodmakesitgood

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1146 on: January 23, 2015, 10:32:41 PM »
Norma:  Have you tried brushing the crust with oil?  I have never done it on pizza but somewhere on the forum I posted photos of leftover dough balls that we turned into bread rounds.  I brushed them with oil and they blistered off the chart.  Franks method of oil on the bench to open a dough produced blistering when I tried it a while back but my photos that are posted on that thread were not good enough to really see it in detail.   Walter


Both oil brushing and Frank's method sound like absolutely cracking ideas.  ^^^
Charles

Offline norma427

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1147 on: January 23, 2015, 10:33:27 PM »
Norma:  Have you tried brushing the crust with oil?  I have never done it on pizza but somewhere on the forum I posted photos of leftover dough balls that we turned into bread rounds.  I brushed them with oil and they blistered off the chart.  Franks method of oil on the bench to open a dough produced blistering when I tried it a while back but my photos that are posted on that thread were not good enough to really see it in detail.   Walter

Walter,

I don't think I have tried brushing rim crusts with oil.   I would think dough balls turned into bread rounds would bake differently than a pizza crust with oil brushed on.  Thanks for telling me that Frank's method of opening with oil did give you blistering.  When I used Frank's oil method to open up dough balls I did not get any blistering.  Were your dough balls fermented more than two days when you had the blistering using Frank's oil method?

I don't know if you recall about the dough ball Frank brought to market from Mick's.  That dough ball had oil around the dough ball.  I asked Tom Lehmann how that crust got so flakey, but it also had some blistering.  Tom never answered my question, but I posted at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=34478.0  The blistering can't be seen a lot, but there was blistering on places that crust.  If I recall right I think Frank did open that dough ball up with oil.

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1148 on: January 23, 2015, 10:36:29 PM »

Both oil brushing and Frank's method sound like absolutely cracking ideas.  ^^^

woodmakesitgood,

I have tried using Frank's method of opening a dough ball with oil, but don't think I tried to brushing the rim crust with oil.  What I wonder though is how fermented that dough would have to be.  The only problem would be if it works, is that I wouldn't have time to do that to every pizza I make at market.

Norma

Offline waltertore

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1149 on: January 24, 2015, 06:49:05 AM »
woodmakesitgood,

I have tried using Frank's method of opening a dough ball with oil, but don't think I tried to brushing the rim crust with oil.  What I wonder though is how fermented that dough would have to be.  The only problem would be if it works, is that I wouldn't have time to do that to every pizza I make at market.

Norma


I look forward to what you think of brushing the rim with oil.  Tom Lehman often tells of that if I remember right.  Walter
« Last Edit: January 24, 2015, 06:55:07 AM by waltertore »
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Offline CaptBob

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1150 on: January 24, 2015, 09:43:33 AM »
Norma....like Walter mentioned, I read about Dr. Tom brushing the rim with oil pre bake and then I found a video of him doing so and I've been doing it ever since. I looked through my pictures and found a couple that appear to show some small blistering so maybe it's worth a try?
« Last Edit: January 24, 2015, 09:45:50 AM by CaptBob »
Bob

Offline norma427

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1151 on: January 24, 2015, 09:46:11 AM »

I look forward to what you think of brushing the rim with oil.  Tom Lehman often tells of that if I remember right.  Walter

Walter,

I wonder if the oil will then go onto the stone and make a mess during the bake.  I think I recall Tom posting about when brushing oil on the skin rim it then produces a darker rim, but am not sure of that. 

I am wondering how much yeast to add to a test dough if I want it highly fermented, but not too fermented.

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1152 on: January 24, 2015, 09:56:50 AM »
Norma....like Walter mentioned, I read about Dr. Tom brushing the rim with oil pre bake and then I found a video of him doing so and I've been doing it ever since. I looked through my pictures and found a couple that appear to show some small blistering so maybe it's worth a try?

Bob,

Your photos of your blisters do look beautiful!  8) I will try brushing a rim with oil pre bake. 

Norma

Offline CaptBob

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1153 on: January 24, 2015, 09:59:58 AM »
Bob,

Your photos of your blisters do look beautiful!  8) I will try brushing a rim with oil pre bake. 

Norma

This may be the first time that the words beautiful and blisters have been used in the same sentence!  ;D

Thanks Norma!
Bob

Offline norma427

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1154 on: January 24, 2015, 10:15:49 AM »
This may be the first time that the words beautiful and blisters have been used in the same sentence!  ;D

Thanks Norma!

Bob,

I think there are many people that would like to achieve blisters consistently, but they aren't always obtainable.  Maybe you will be the first person to be able to obtain them all the time.   8)  What was you dough formulation, and what method did you use to open your dough balls?

Norma

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1155 on: January 24, 2015, 10:16:55 AM »

I look forward to what you think of brushing the rim with oil.  Tom Lehman often tells of that if I remember right.  Walter
Walter,

Yes, Tom Lehmann did discuss the application of oil to the rim of a pizza skin but it was to reduce the effects of oxidation, which would then reduce blistering. See, for example, Reply 67 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7740.msg65645#msg65645. If you read the comments of the poster at the PMQ Think Tank that gave rise to Tom's comments as reproduced in Reply 67, specifically, at http://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/pizza-dough.6414/#post-42221, you will see that that the member did try oiling the rims of the skins and instead of getting more blistering, it was reduced. The same member tried using water on the rim, before refrigerating and before baking, and neither of those methods reduced the blistering.

If oil on the rim of a baked pizza causes blistering, then I would think that it should do so, perhaps in varying degrees, for any dough at any stage, from an emergency dough up to an overfermented dough. I once tried oiling the rim (half of it) in an experiment where I made a dough without yeast and the part of the rim with the oil did not exhibit blistering. I discussed the experiment at Reply 69 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7740.msg66521#msg66521. That may not be the definitive test since there was no yeast in the dough, leading to the possibility that oil may enhance or contribute to blistering if the dough has had some fermentation or some other condition that, together with the oil, leads to blistering. Also, my test was to see if a dry skin was the cause or contributor to blistering, which my test said no.

Peter


Offline norma427

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1156 on: January 24, 2015, 10:48:02 AM »
If I am understanding the one part of what you copied from Tom Lehmann in your first link, (in your last post) then when using Tony's 00 flour, why would those blisters be pronounced since the flour wasn't bromated flour?

In pizza production, we really don't need this extra strength, so you shouldn't see any ill affects to the dough, but by removing the bromate, you might also get rid of the blisters. 

Norma

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1157 on: January 24, 2015, 11:00:21 AM »
Peter,

I think I had blistering in the rims from some of the preferment Lehmann dough pizzas made from frozen dough balls.  Some of those doughs were pretty slack.

Norma
Norma,

One of the experiments I conducted with a Lehmann NY style dough formulation involved using a Lehmann dough that had been cold fermented for about three days and then frozen for about 17 1/2 days. The dough was then defrosted in the refrigerator for about one day and held on the bench for tempering for about 1 1/2 hours at room temperature. So, the total fermentation time might have been around 4 days--about three days initially (before freezing) and maybe another day between the defrosting of the dough in the refrigerator and tempering it on the bench. The experiment itself is described in Reply 830 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=576.msg96046#msg96046. As I noted in that post, the finished crust did have a profusion of blisters (and bubbles). The blistering can be best seen by amplifying the photo of a slice of the pizza in Reply 831. Whether the method I used to bake the pizza contributed to the blistering is hard to say but it is possible, I suppose, that it did, especially since there was good oven spring and many bubbles along with the blisters.

Further to the matter of blistering of crusts made from frozen dough, you might find the photos of Mellow Mushroom pizzas at the Flickr website of interest, at:

https://www.flickr.com/search/?q=mellow%20mushroom%20pizza

You might look at the Flickr photos in the context of my post at Reply 2030 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3940.msg339589#msg339589.

I mention the above examples merely to point out that blistering seems to be closely associated with doughs that have had long fermentations. But, in the case of the MM frozen doughs, it is perhaps due to the use of a lot of yeast in the dough rather than very long fermentation times as is often the case of doughs with much less yeast. I can also assure you that the workers at MM stores have made pizzas out of dough balls that were on their last legs. And I would guess that those are the ones with the most blisters.

Peter

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1158 on: January 24, 2015, 11:13:44 AM »
Further to the matter of blistering of crusts made from frozen dough, you might find the photos of Mellow Mushroom pizzas at the Flickr website of interest, at:

https://www.flickr.com/search/?q=mellow%20mushroom%20pizza

Peter, I see almost nothing in those pictures that I would call "blistering."
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1159 on: January 24, 2015, 11:17:51 AM »
If I am understanding the one part of what you copied from Tom Lehmann in your first link, (in your last post) then when using Tony's 00 flour, why would those blisters be pronounced since the flour wasn't bromated flour?

In pizza production, we really don't need this extra strength, so you shouldn't see any ill affects to the dough, but by removing the bromate, you might also get rid of the blisters. 

Norma
Norma,

If I correctly understood your comment, I do not believe that Tom meant to say that bromated flours cause blistering. I think he was only speculating as to such a cause and why he suggested that the PMQTT member who was trying to prevent blistering try unbromated flour to see if that eliminated blistering. As Tom himself said at the PMQTT at http://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/pizza-dough.6414/#post-42217, blistering was not a topic that was studied in depth (I assume at the AIB), so that leaves us with having to do research on our own to determine the true causes of blistering.

As for Tony's 00 flour, I do not believe that that flour is the cause of blistering. By that, I mean that I do not see anything in Tony's flour that causes blistering. Rather, I see the management of the dough using such a flour as containing the causes of blistering, either alone, as in long fermentations, or in conjunction with something else.

Peter

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