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Offline norma427

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1120 on: January 22, 2015, 09:54:04 PM »
Norma,

I plan to review the cases where I achieved significant blistering to see if I can detect a pattern that might suggest possible experiments. But, as I see it, trying to reproduce something that is hit or miss may not be easy. There has to be a reliable dough formulation at the heart of the experiments to begin with and it will require changing only one variable at a time, and all the related dough preparation and management will have to be nearly identical in each case. It is hard to do these sorts of things in a controlled laboratory setting, nevermind an environment such as you have at market. But let's wait to see what my research tells me.

Peter

Peter,

I appreciate you plan to review the cases where you achieved significant blistering to see if you can detect a pattern that might suggest possible experiments.  I know trying to reproduce something that is hit or miss may not be easy.  I understand about only changing one variable at a time.  Maybe I could just make the dough experiments at home first where there is a more reliable setting.  I could also ask Tony G. on his Pizza Bible website why he thinks I achieved that noticeable blistering when I tried his flour in my regular boardwalk style dough in the same oven I normally use. 

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1121 on: January 22, 2015, 10:22:48 PM »
   Norma keeps good notes.....may I suggest that the weather conditions and the dough handling procedures be looked up for the particular days when Norma experienced good/exceptional blistering and see if there may be some secret/clue lying there within. Of course, check the types of flours, hydrations used on those days also.......she uses so many!  :chef:

Bob,

I really don't keep good notes.  Each time I go to market something changes, so I have to adjust to those changes.  I use the same flour at market for a long while now and also the same hydration.  I do use different hydrations for other experimental doughs, but not market doughs.  Since my oven has been working good I haven't messed with the temperature.

Norma

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1122 on: January 22, 2015, 10:34:36 PM »
I could also ask Tony G. on his Pizza Bible website why he thinks I achieved that noticeable blistering when I tried his flour in my regular boardwalk style dough in the same oven I normally use. 

Norma

 Isn't that sort of asking him to pull a needle out of a hay stack?
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Offline norma427

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1123 on: January 22, 2015, 10:51:13 PM »
Isn't that sort of asking him to pull a needle out of a hay stack?

Bob,

It could be, but you never know if you don't ask.  I would not have found the cheese I use now if I would not have asked someone I didn't really think would tell me.

Norma

Offline CaptBob

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1124 on: January 22, 2015, 11:21:46 PM »
When making bread, I pretty much always get blisters when I have adequate steam in the air and almost never do if I don't. These were baked under a cover last weekend. I started at 550F and dropped it down to 450F.

Craig.....when you talk about adequate steam, does that come from covering the bake or from an oven safe bowl or pan of water placed in the oven during the bake?
Bob

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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1125 on: January 23, 2015, 12:39:10 AM »
Craig.....when you talk about adequate steam, does that come from covering the bake or from an oven safe bowl or pan of water placed in the oven during the bake?

Personally, I don't think a pan of water does anything meaningful. Home ovens are designed to evacuate steam as quickly as possible so people don't burn the heck out of themselves. It needs to be covered or steam injected (which is simple to do with a pressure cooker and a few feet of high temperature hose). I generally cover. I have a large roasting pat that almost perfectly covers my rectangular stone.

I heat them both together, take the pan off, quickly turn the stone sideways, launch the loaves, turn it back, cover, and bake.
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1126 on: January 23, 2015, 11:11:04 AM »
Norma,

While doing some forum searching this morning, I came across another thread--one in which you posted several times--devoted to the subject of blistering (aka "pimples"), at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10656.0.html. It might be helpful to keep that thread in mind also with respect to the blistering issue.

Peter

Offline waltertore

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1127 on: January 23, 2015, 01:25:24 PM »
I find blistering occurs under several conditions with bread and pizza:

long ice water ferments in fridge followed by 5-6  hours of bench rise with dough that is at its peak wich is for us 3-4 days
long cold water ferment and overnight refrigeration of breads especially sourdough
oil brushed on the bread top before baking

here are some pictures of todays pizza with blistering and a sourdough bread. 
Walter
« Last Edit: January 23, 2015, 07:34:03 PM by waltertore »
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1128 on: January 23, 2015, 02:47:05 PM »
Norma,

Today I did several forum searches of my posts using the terms "blister", "blisters" and "blistering". I then studied the posts to get an idea as to how blistering factored into my pizzas. When I was done, I concluded that the single factor that was consistent through all of my pizzas where I talked about blistering in my posts was a long fermentation. The long fermentation was as a result of using a small amount of yeast and a long, cold fermentation, or using a larger amount of yeast but where the dough was in effect on the cusp of overfermenting. The latter was fairly rare for me since I was not a user of large amounts of yeast for my doughs. However, in my next post, I will talk a bit about frozen doughs using large amounts of yeast and where blistering did occur when defrosted and used to make pizzas.

Some of the best examples of cases where I used a small amount of yeast and long fermentations are in the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.0.html. In that thread, I discussed six different pizzas where the duration of cold fermentation was in the range of about six days to 23 days. I specifically mentioned the blistering phenomenon in those six cases although I wish I had done a better job showing the blistering in the photos I posted. The specific posts are Reply 23 (10 days plus 4 1/2 hours of cold fermentation), Reply 29 (12 days and 4 1/2 hours), Reply 35 (6 1/3 days), Reply 91 (7 days), Reply 110 (15 days), Reply 117 (23 days) and Reply 123 (12 days). What is significant about these pizzas was the fact that they all used the same basic dough formulation (a basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation), with just flour, water, yeast (IDY or ADY) and oil (and no sugar). However, I did try a few different flours and I tweaked the amount of yeast but not in a way that would have affected the results I was trying to achieve, namely, long dough lives. Also, as a significant departure from the way that most people use yeast in forming their doughs, in my case I used both IDY and ADY (in dry form) late in the dough making process. This was done intentionally to ensure a long cold fermentation window. But while this result was achieved, it could not be said that the late addition of the IDY or ADY "caused" the blistering, at least not directly, and especially since we all know that blistering can occur where the yeast is used in its normal manner.

I also studied my posts to see if I could draw a line as to when blistering is likely to occur. In my case, I would put that line at about three days of cold fermentation. For example, in the Boardwalk thread, I entered at least three posts where I discussed blistering, and the duration of the cold fermentation was about three days in each case. The relevant posts are at Replies 204, 301 and 307.

I also looked for examples of posts where blistering occurred in my pizzas below three days of cold fermentation. I could not find any although as noted above my doughs usually did not use a lot of yeast as to promote rapid fermentation, up to an including overfermentation or something just shy of it. I also cannot recall any case where an emergency dough that I made led to a crust with detectable blistering. Maybe they were there but I did not notice them because I was looking for something else. I think a good thread on the minimal window of fermentation to get blistering is Chau's thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10656.0.html. As I reread that thread, I found myself nodding in agreement several times.

I think it is also important to point out several things that I did not do with my doughs that exhibited blistering. For example, I did not spray or coat the rims of skins with oil before dressing. I did coat dough balls with oil but not the rims. I also did not let the skins become dry. My practice was to cover a tempering dough ball or a skin made therefrom with plastic wrap. I also did not use any bromated flours. I also did not detect a correlation between hydration value and the occurrence of blistering. I was able to achieve it with hydration values of around 65% and around 50% and values in between.

So, my conclusion is that the predominant factor in the creation of blistering is prolonged fermentation, however achieved. It is also possible that the bake environment and bake temperatures may be implicated in the blistering phenomenon but in my case I used only my standard, builders grade electric home oven. However, I would think that a high bake temperature is better for creating blisters than low bake temperatures.

Peter

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1129 on: January 23, 2015, 02:54:13 PM »


  Just another suggestion...."fazzari"  seems to have the blistering thing down. Jus say'in....
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1130 on: January 23, 2015, 03:15:17 PM »
In my last post, I mentioned frozen dough balls and their proclivity to produce blistering in the finished crust. I had noted that myself when Norma and I played around with frozen Mellow Mushroom clone dough balls. And I noted from one of Tom Lehmann's posts that he, too, had observed the blistering phenomenon with frozen dough balls.

The best explanation I can offer for why frozen dough balls may be prone to producing blistering in the finished crust, at least for many commercially produced frozen dough balls, is the typically large amount of yeast used to make the frozen dough balls. The large amount of yeast is used because freezing damages some of the yeast. So, to compensate for the loss of some of the yeast, the amount used can be two or even three times the amount of yeast used in normal doughs that are not subjected to freezing. It is also well known that frozen dough balls have a limited life once they are defrosted. From what I have read, and also from my experience with the MM frozen clone dough balls, that window of use is about two days. However, in practice, some pizza operators will try to stretch that to three days or maybe even four days. By that time, the dough is almost on its last legs, that is, overfermented, or very close to it. So, while the life of the dough ball is not especially long, it is still far past its prime and therefore prone to producing blistering in the finished crust much like a dough that uses a small amount of yeast but a very long cold fermentation window. Pizza operators well understand all of this and rather than throwing away an overfermented dough that is no longer suitable to make pizzas, they make breadsticks, or cheesesticks or garlic knots and the like out of the spent dough.

Peter

Offline gfgman

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1131 on: January 23, 2015, 03:29:07 PM »
Some observations:  I mized a small dough ball for use last night.  It sat out for about 90 minutes and went in fridge for 30 minutes before I pulled it out to use it.  It was a decent pie, but no blistering.  I also mixed dough for Monday night's pies.  Monday's pies always have blistering.  Primarily on the bottom, because my oven doesn't give much top heat during bake.  The dough is easy work with, and the finished crust is really tasty.  My favorite local guy always serves up a blistered pie, and it's one of the best around. 

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1132 on: January 23, 2015, 04:45:07 PM »

Just another suggestion...."fazzari"  seems to have the blistering thing down. Jus say'in....
Bob,

What you say is true but John used things like preferments (which Norma used at market and got blistering), bulk fermentations and re-ballings. I'm not sure these measures are ones that Norma wants or is able to implement at market.

Maybe others will fill in some of the gaps of my last two posts with suggestions that Norma might be able to use at market. Of course, Norma could do a broad forum search herself to fill in some of the gaps. There are only 477 posts that contain the word "blisters", 88 posts that contain the word "blister" and 389 posts that contain the word "blistering". ;D There is some overlap in the three searches but the total number is perhaps over 500 posts.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1133 on: January 23, 2015, 07:08:17 PM »
Norma,

While doing some forum searching this morning, I came across another thread--one in which you posted several times--devoted to the subject of blistering (aka "pimples"), at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10656.0.html. It might be helpful to keep that thread in mind also with respect to the blistering issue.

Peter

Peter,

I thought I recalled that Chau achieved those “pimped up pimples”, err blisters  :P, but I didn't do a forum search using Chau's name.  I think maybe those blisters might come from with letting the dough ball warm-up longer and also having a decently mixed dough to begin with from Chau's experiments.  Do you agree? 

I did post on Tony's Pizza Bible website. 

http://www.thepizzabible.com/posts/tony-s-artisan-00-flour-pizza-results-and-a-question 

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1134 on: January 23, 2015, 07:10:24 PM »
I find blistering occurs under several conditions with bread and pizza:

long ice water ferments in fridge followed by 5-6  hours of bench rise with dough that is at its peak wich is for us 3-4 days
long cold water ferment and overnight refrigeration of breads especially sourdough
oil brushed on the bread top before baking

here are some pictures of todays pizza with blistering and a sourdough bread.  It fits the first description
Walter

Walter,

Thanks so much for your explanations!  You really achieved nice blisters today on your pizza and on your sour dough bread.   ;D

Norma

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1135 on: January 23, 2015, 07:27:49 PM »
Peter,

I thought I recalled that Chau achieved those “pimped up pimples”, err blisters  :P, but I didn't do a forum search using Chau's name.  I think maybe those blisters might come from with letting the dough ball warm-up longer and also having a decently mixed dough to begin with from Chau's experiments.  Do you agree? 
Yes, the longer temper time is what I was going to suggest once you had a chance to consider the posts since you last posted on the matter. My thinking is that you might want to push the dough as far out as you can fermentation-wise yet still be able to handle it. Depending on the ambient temperature, it could be on the bench or maybe in your warmer if it is cool at market. Another approach might be to increase the amount of yeast a bit to also get the dough fermented faster.

Peter

Offline waltertore

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1136 on: January 23, 2015, 07:37:34 PM »
Walter,

Thanks so much for your explanations!  You really achieved nice blisters today on your pizza and on your sour dough bread.   ;D

Norma

Thanks Norma.  What Peter says about fermenting as long as possible is the key.  The problem is the dough gets hard to work with and it has to be handled very gently.  Tossing is out and gentle hand stretching can quickly turn into a mess if not very careful.  My best pizzas are from the near dead dough that has sat out till it almost loses its strength.   For a pro set up this would be a very dangerous place to live as your norm because the window of use is very short.  I find with the 3-4 day ice water ferment and 2-5 hours on the bench the dough is still easy to work with and can be tossed and or hand stretched.  The finished product looks good but may or may not have the blistering.  Walter
« Last Edit: January 23, 2015, 07:39:40 PM by waltertore »
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Offline norma427

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1137 on: January 23, 2015, 07:40:47 PM »
Yes, the longer temper time is what I was going to suggest once you had a chance to consider the posts since you last posted on the matter. My thinking is that you might want to push the dough as far out as you can fermentation-wise yet still be able to handle it. Depending on the ambient temperature, it could be on the bench or maybe in your warmer if it is cool at market. Another approach might be to increase the amount of yeast a bit to also get the dough fermented faster.

Peter

Peter,

I haven't had a chance to look at the other posts yet, but I will.  When I got around to using the dough ball with Tony's flour it did sit out to warm up longer than usual.  I didn't measure the poppy seed spacings, but I would estimate the dough ball might have tripled in volume.

I might have something else to ask after I read the other posts.

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1138 on: January 23, 2015, 07:45:36 PM »
What Peter says about fermenting as long as possible is the key.  The problem is the dough gets hard to work with and it has to be handled very gently.  Tossing is out and gentle hand stretching can quickly turn into a mess if not very careful.  My best pizzas are from the near dead dough that has sat out till it almost loses its strength.   For a pro set up this would be a very dangerous place to live as your norm because the window of use is very short.  I find with the 3-4 day ice water ferment and 2-5 hours on the bench the dough is still easy to work with and can be tossed and or hand stretched.  The finished product looks good but may or may not have the blistering.  Walter

Walter,

Thanks again for your explanations!  I don't want a dough that really is a mess to work with  I can understand for a regular market dough that would be a very dangerous place to be.  I guess I will see what happens.

Norma

Offline JD

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1139 on: January 23, 2015, 07:51:35 PM »
Peter,

I thought I recalled that Chau achieved those “pimped up pimples”, err blisters  :P, but I didn't do a forum search using Chau's name.  I think maybe those blisters might come from with letting the dough ball warm-up longer and also having a decently mixed dough to begin with from Chau's experiments.  Do you agree? 

Norma

Hi Norma  ;D

I certainly cannot answer what causes blistering in pizza with any confidence, but the last bake I had resulted in decent blistering. Unfortunately, in this case, the dough was still pretty cold since I did not have much time for tempering. I recall taking an IR temp of the dough around 60* just before making the pizza. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=34538.msg358448#msg358448

If it helps any, I've been doing mainly 24hr cold ferments using IDY, always a small percentage of oil & sugar, all-trumps bromated flour, ~63% effective hydration. Also, my NY style doughs are more likely under-fermented than over-fermented. 

To add to what Craig suggested, maybe it's possible that baking an 18" pizza in my oven creates enough steam to cause the blistering? I see the most blistering in my bread baking when I cover it with a stainless bowl during its bake, so it makes sense that steam might be the largest contributor to pizza blistering.
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